# F.W. Evans - not exactly sure of the vintage



## datslow (Sep 11, 2014)

Greetings,

I have this F.W. Evans that appears to be older, but I quite honestly cannot find much information regarding these frames online. All I can ascertain is that it comes from the oldest bike builders in the U.K. Searching online retrieves only a few bikes that are either the limited production frames that were made a few years back or frames from the early 60's and older. I am not entirely sure with what I'm dealing with here.

The frame has been resprayed, so the decals are not original. Pulling the bottom bracket (Campagnolo) and looking inside looks like the frame is authentically brazed, though I digress- I have novice eyes when it comes to such things.

The serial number on the bottom bracket housing is 5377. The drop outs were painted over by the previous owner, so I have not verified if they are campagnolo or...? There are braze ons located on the front fork and rear stays to accommodate accessories. Headset is 1". There are literally no brazed cable guides located anywhere on the frame. Rear drop outs measure about 120mm apart, eluding to spacing for a 6 or 7spd cassette. Front drop outs measure about 100mm apart. Seat post size is 27.0mm. Bottom bracket axel width is about 124mm. Rear derailleur hanger is one piece with the frame & drop out. There are rear wheel alignment bolts in the drop outs. Lastly I threw on a pair of 700cc wheels to get a visual and noticed that in order for brakes to reach the rims, the would have to be crazy long making me think the British like super long brake arms or 700cc wheels are too small.

I am curious to know what vintage this frame and fork is, so I can properly build it. Any help as to what this is, is genuinely appreciated.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Braze on bits only came into fashion in the seventies. Many builders liked clean frames with no brazed on fittings. 
The large clearance may be for fenders if it was a touring frame. Again, close clearance brakes like we have today came around the late seventies.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

In your search did you find the Classic Lightweights site?

F W Evans 1920s-30s


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## datslow (Sep 11, 2014)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Braze on bits only came into fashion in the seventies. Many builders liked clean frames with no brazed on fittings.


Thank you for the reply. Since I last posted this thread I did a bit more digging around + this read:



Mike T. said:


> In your search did you find the Classic Lightweights site?
> 
> F W Evans 1920s-30s


The only information I have discovered is that throughout the 50's the frames had oil ports on them and the wheel size has been unchanged- 26" to accommodate fenders.

I did find a cover photo from a book by Richard Ballantine which was published in 1972 where he's posing with an F.W. Evans bike with a frame that looks similar to the one that I have in possession. Other than that, I have little else to go with. I did send an email to F.W. Evans directly in hopes of getting some information.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm going to say late 60s--early '70s. Rear 120 spacing was for 5 speed; 6 speed/126 was being used more as the '70s went on as (especially) the longer Campy axles were more available, and people swapped to 6spd clusters. Also, the earlier bikes would typically have a clunkier seat post bolt--that one looks like a Campy or Campy copy and inset--also becoming popular around that time. 

(For example, I raced on an early Cinelli 'B'--and it had both the clunky seatpost bolt and the bottom bracket oiler; my first "new" racing bike--a Falcon San Remo, purchased 1971 had the wrap stays, inset seatpost bolt, no braze-ons (all Campy attachments) typical of a "hot" British racing bike of its day.)

Also that wrapped rear stay attachment came into fashion in the early 70s--Holdsworth switched to one like that about then.

Evans are (and were) primarily a retail shop, then added a wholesaling group, and survive as a set of shops--used to visit one that was the closest bike shop to where we lived in London recently.

It was fairly common for the British shops to have house-branded frames--sometimes made in house (like Holdsworth), but often contracted to independent builders. The bikes were usually sold bare (there was a tax advantage) and people bought the kit they wanted to build them up.

I was surprised noodling around that not much detail survives on who made frames for Evans (recently it was Pashley for touring bikes); Hillary Stone (as in the link to the Classic Lightweights) mentions a builder for one of the older frames he has for sale on his web page...). On the Classic Rendezvous site, someone mentions (Chas) Roberts as a possible builder for their frames--if so, that would make it a quality frame. 

The absence of braze-ons is typical of the Brit bikes--they had the theory that braze-ones weakened the frame, so as Cinelli 82220 said, they didn't come into general use in the '70s...

The one tidbit I found was this old eBay ad (with no pictures, darn it)--that identifies an FW Evans as a '70s bike, and it seems to be within a few serial numbers of yours--Frame number: 5372 E0:
F W Evans Cycles Vintage Reynolds 531 Double Butted Road Frame 1970s Mint | eBay

The ad does identify the frame as having Reynold 531 and Campag dropouts--a close up of yours even if you can't read the name would probably let someone here identify them on your frame.


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## datslow (Sep 11, 2014)

That ^^^ is a top quality post. Thank you very much for your thoughts. The front and rear dropouts were painted over, so it took a bit of time this morning to delicately get down to the bare metal without removing any around the lettering. I am pleased to say that the front and rear dropouts are Campagnolo, reading 'Brev. Campagnolo'. Likewise, the frame and fork w/o the seat post and headset weigh smidge below 4lbs. Frame size is 55cm. I had a suspicion that the frame is made with Reynolds 853 and the drop outs would indicate such.

If you or others have any more info in light of what the drop outs are verified as, that would be great!


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

I think it is more likely to be Reynolds 531 tubing, since 853 was not introduced until the early '90s. The fact of the Campy drop outs almost guarantees that you have a high-end frame from that late '60s-early '70s period--they were comparatively expensive and not "wasted" on the economy frames.

I posted about Evans over at the Classic Rendezvous forum--the consensus is that FW Evans did do some production in house, but also subcontracted. Hilary Stone says:


> Tom Board worked for Evans in the 1960s – it is when he acquired the Evans layout frame jig he used in his workshop in later years.


Someone else has posted a picture of the framemaker they met at Evans in the early '70s but so far no one has identified him...

Someone weighed in to say that Woodrup (who built for a lot of smaller English marques) definitively did not build for FW Evans. Other possibilities for an outside contractors (in addition to Roberts already mentioned) could be Nigel Dean and/or Falcon bikes or possibly even Holdsworthy. 

The latter was the suggestion of Norris Lockley (who has probably forgotten more about English makers than I know):


> I suspect that, in the early days pre and post war years when Evans really was a name to respect, that the firm had its own builders. No doubt that in the leaner years they probably put the work out to subcontractors and it wouldn't surprise me if the Holdsworthy company were involved.
> 
> I know for a fact that in the late 70s and into the 80s, a lot of their frames were built by Nigel Dean's small company up in Barton-on-Humber, the same town as falcon's workshop was in. I think that Ernie Clements was involved in both companies..so it would not surprise if, at one time or another - say 60/70s - Falcon was providing some of the frames.
> 
> Alongside the frames for Evans, Nigel Dean's builders were also producing frames for Condor. - all the Reynolds 753 frames being built by an elegant middle-aged woman.


If you wanted to compare the details on your frame to Holdsworth/Holdsworthy--which I think is more likely for your particular frame if it wasn't built in-house--there is an excellent site here:
Holdsworth Bicycles

**Edit to add: Hilary had a look at the pictures you posted and agrees that it may well be a Holdsworthy-built, FW Evans branded frame.**

Often this is how these stories end--no definitive answer, unless the actual builder marked the frame with "his" special code, or we know the serial number sequence well enough to assign a block of serial numbers to one builder that we know worked at a shop when those were produced, as the Masi guys can do with that production. Sometimes we get lucky if the builder is still alive and can tell us.

So build it up and ride the heck out of it--those English Reynolds 531 frames are some of the most comfortable and usable that have been made, with their fender eyes and room for wider tires.

Cheers,
Dean


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## datslow (Sep 11, 2014)

My fault; I meant Reynolds 531, promise! What a really interesting read, again, thank you very much for your insight. It seems every time you post, this frame and fork become that much more special...so keep posting!

With your help there are a few aspects to further go on such as a few companies who may have been involved in the build, an era (late 60's to early 70's) and quite possibly the very person who made the frame. In addition, I've taken several close up photos of the lugs to possibly further pinpoint the who and the when.

I took a look at the link you provided and payed attention to the lugs. Aside from the front lug where the top tube meets the steerer tube, every lug is identical between my frame and the 71' catalog pictures. Holdsworth took that one little pointy part of the lug on the steerer tube and removed it. Else everything seems identical. Even where the rear stays meet and how there is the little triangle there, and the rear derailleur drop out look to be identical.

One small difference is the cable routing via the bottom bracket. It looks as though the catalog photos have brazed cable guides above the bottom bracket, however my frame is void of braze ons, so I suspect the Campagnolo clamp-on guide was used (or a variant) as you will see in the pic below.

Another thing I noticed is on the drive side of the down tube, about 12 cm down is this little nub. It looks like something used to be there, which was snapped off or removed and not entirely filed down to the profile of the down tube, then painted over. Any ideas?

I am glad to see that this frame was potentially kitted out in Campagnolo as I have a ton of extra parts laying around. Time to lace up some high flange Super Record hubs.

EDIT: I'm not too sure why the pictures didn't work, but I suspect this website is very particular to size/aspect. Reposted them below.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

datslow said:


> Another thing I noticed is on the drive side of the down tube, about 12 cm down is this little nub. It looks like something used to be there, which was snapped off or removed and not entirely filed down to the profile of the down tube, then painted over. Any ideas?


As this frame is probably an early '70s "no braze on era" frame, could the nub be the stop to prevent the downtube shifter clamp sliding down under cable tension? Some frames had those.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> As this frame is probably an early '70s "no braze on era" frame, could the nub be the stop to prevent the downtube shifter clamp sliding down under cable tension? Some frames had those.


That's what I would expect it to be as well--they ranged from primitive to decorative, but the function was the same.

BTW, I can't see the second set of pictures--can you try re-posting?


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Holdsworth sold a line of frames called Roy Thame in the seventies. Their slogan was The Road to Fame is on a Roy Thame Frame. I don't know if Roy Thame was an actual person building frames though.


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## datslow (Sep 11, 2014)

I wasn't even aware of a nub being present to stop the shifters from sliding. Was that pretty standard or builder specific? Hopefully the photos work this time! Lemme know!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

datslow said:


> I wasn't even aware of a nub being present to stop the shifters from sliding. Was that pretty standard or builder specific?


The other nubs that I've seen were more decorative than that. On was a flat heart-shaped thing on top of the tube. Most frames didn't have anything.

Yep the pics worked this time and I hope they fired the blind guy who owned the lug-lining brush.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> The other nubs that I've seen were more decorative than that. On was a flat heart-shaped thing on top of the tube. Most frames didn't have anything.
> 
> Yep the pics worked this time and I hope they fired the blind guy who owned the lug-lining brush.


Agreed!

Gran Sport/Valentino shifters if those are original.

If that rear derailleur is original to the bike, you might want to read the date code--look on the top of the body right where the cable enters--you should see 'Pat. xx', where xx is the year. It's not usually conclusive (since parts could sit around) but with Campy components in the 'bike boom' years, there was a shortage of Campy so it tended to get used pretty quickly.

Seeing the close-ups make me agree with Hilary that it could well be a Holdsworthy made bike--but that narrow full wrapover on the rear stay would make me lean more to the late '60s...


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## datslow (Sep 11, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> The other nubs that I've seen were more decorative than that. On was a flat heart-shaped thing on top of the tube. Most frames didn't have anything.
> 
> Yep the pics worked this time and I hope they fired the blind guy who owned the lug-lining brush.


The P/O had this frame resprayed and either he did the gold or someone else...doesn't matter- it's not very good! The good thing is that there is so much clear on this bike that the gold can be wet sanded off and cleared again. Polished lugs would be nice, but that is too much elbow grease for what little time I have at the moment.



paredown said:


> Agreed!
> 
> Gran Sport/Valentino shifters if those are original.
> 
> If that rear derailleur is original to the bike...


The only thing that this bike came with was the random black seat post and the no-brand headset. All of the parts currently on the bike are out of my stash and I used the oldest stuff I had, such as the rear derailleur being Pat. 71. Thus, that doesn't help in dating the frame. Though, if you and your friend Hillary conclude that it is a late 60's frame, then I am pretty comfortable with that! (Too bad there wasn't a S/N database)

Right now I'm waiting for the Super Record bottom bracket axel to show up in the mail so I can assemble the drive train. I was digging around last night through my bins and came across a Sachs 7-spd cassette with narrow spacing that I may try to use. This will take a bit of rear axel spacer trickery, but worth a bit more range in the gearing. I can swap spacers then dish the rim to the drive side to accommodate the cassette. Else I'll drop down one to a Sun Tour Ultra 6.

Of course, if any of you have any era specific Campy parts that you can part with, let me know  . I have a bench grinder with polishing equipment, so the condition frankly doesn't matter so long as they are functional!


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## doug fattic (Apr 19, 2016)

That frame was almost certainly built by F.W. Evans' own frame builder that worked in the basement of their bike store premises on 46/44 Kennington Road just South of the Thames near Waterloo Station. Many British bikes of the late 60’s and early 70’s had characteristics similar to the one in your pictures with “wraparound” seat stay attachment and Prugnat lugs and limited braze-ons. It is unlikely (although theoretically possible) that the store used an outside frame source when they had their very own builder right in their basement. I have personally visited that builder where he worked in the store and posted a picture I took of him in 1975 on the Classic Rendezvous site. I don’t remember his name. The name on the frame usually designated the store that is selling the frame and not the builder. 

It was popular in the 60’s and early 70’s to have a limited number of braze-ons on a frame. They used clamps instead. This fashion got started with the Italians at the 1960 Olympics. They stated the purpose was to prevent any loss of tensile strength from brass brazing heat. Of course frame builders loved this because it saved them the time it took to put them on. The little nub on the down tube was to prevent the clamp on derailleur shifter levers from sliding down the tube from shifting pressure. That particular style on the Evans was common with London builders. There weren’t 700C clinchers used during that time period. They were either tubulars or 27 X 1 1/4” wire ons. Those 27” rims have a 4 mm bigger radius than a 700C rim. In addition center pull brakes were the most common good brakes during that period of time and they had a much greater reach than today’s side pull brakes. Campy came out with its 47 to 57mm side pull brakes in the late 60’s and they took a long time to become popular because they were so expensive. By the mid to late 70’s braze-ons became more popular again. Brake cable stops on the top tube were the last ones to finally be commonly brazed on. This is why a frame with one set of water bottle bosses and no brake cable stops could probably date to be made around 1972 to 1975 for example. 

There are several indications that your frame was made around 1970. 1st it uses long slot Campy 1010A dropouts. It if had been made earlier in the 60’s they probably would not have been Campys. If it was made after the middle of the 70’s they would be the shorter 1010Bs. It has few braze-ons. Earlier and later frames had more. The 120 spacing indicating a 5 speed freewheel was also used during that time period. 125 spacing for 6 speeds started in the later part of the 70’s. Prugnat lugs (made in France) became popular after the middle 60’s. The wraparound style of seat stay treatment was also most popular during that same time period. I am also suspicious that your seat binder was changed from a British Whitworth threading socket head binder bolt and drilled out to accept a Campy one. 

Some experts have speculated that your frame might be made by Holdsworth because they made for other marques and they also used the same lugs and wraparound stays. Lots of British builders did the same because they were popular. However the only reason someone else besides Evans’ builder would have made your frame is if they wanted something in stock immediately and couldn’t wait for the builder working right in the same building to make one for them. A possibility but unlikely. It also looks fairly well done which is another clue it was made right on the premises. Stock frames built for the general trade were never anything special because they were made to a price point. I met F.W. Evans' builder personally in 1975. He was a clever guy that shared various framebuilding tricks with me. There is always a chance that Evans former builder Tom Board built your frame before the guy I met took over. That would depend on the exact date your frame was made and when the one builder left and the other took over.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Thanks for weighing in Doug--I was waiting to hear if anyone on the CR list could identify the frame builder's photo you provided before adding more about the in-house possibility.

Agree with what you have added re the common features (including lugs) across a lot of these British frames, and it does seem likely that a skilled in-house framemaker would be more than capable of making a quality frame like this.

I am happy to learn about the dating for the changeover between 1010A and 1010B--this will help me when I'm hem'ing and hah'ing over dating a frame...

And it hadn't occurred to me that the seatpost bolt had been changed--and I think you are probably right about that--I can remember guys doing it back in the day, just because it made adjusting the seat post easier (and saved about a half an ounce!).

Dean

For the OP--sorry, no parts. I've got my original Falcon, and that is about it for vintage bikes....


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## datslow (Sep 11, 2014)

Wow...Doug, Paredown...everyone thank you very much for your help in identifying this frame. Very cool and handy that there are people such as yourselves out there with that kind of knowledge about history. I was actually curios about the wheel set and brakes that were used, so your comment helps with that as well. Also I was unaware bout the seat post bolt, but if this is a 1969/1970 frame, what you say makes total sense. 

Also, I slid the shifters down ever so slightly so they rest just before the little nub and after tightening the shifter bracket down, I'm convinced that is what the nub is for. I got the Campagnolo 68 SS bottom bracket in the mail today and went ahead and installed the bottom bracket assembly, along with the cranks and pedals, then installed the front derailleur and adjusted the throw. Starting to look like a bike! Digging around in my parts I found a really cool 3ttt Olympic Record stem that I'll use.

Hmm...not sure what else to say at this point other than I really appreciate all the information that you all have given!


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