# Rear wheel off center by 3mm. dealer is against trying to warranty it.



## hammermc (Aug 7, 2010)

*Rear wheel off center by 3mm. BMC dealer is against trying to warranty it.*

Have a 3 month old Bmc time machine tmr02 where the rear wheel is off center by about 3mm. You can visually see the offset by referencing the seat tube, chain stay and seat stay. 









Took it to a dealer (not the original, purchased in usa, i'm in canada) and they confirmed that the frame is causing the issue. I wanted to try applying for the warranty but he sounded very against it for the following:

- The cost is not worth it 
- Bmc will find any reason to reject a claim. My non stock wheels and groupset would be included.
- 3mm is within tolerance and is normal

He then told me to redish the wheel to accommodate the offset. He then said: 'sorry there's not much else I can do to help'.

I'm worried that wheel flex will cause the tire to rub the frame. Also 1 brake pad has 1mm clearance from the brake track while the other has 1cm. 

Should I just take the guys advice and live with it?


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Find another BMC dealer; at least one that's willing to make the ATTEMPT to contact BMC.

Can you feel the misalignment when you ride the bike no-handed? Does it pull to one side when you do so? As Trump would say, 3mm is HUUUGE, and should be corrected. But if they refuse, redishing the wheel and then using the "no hands" test should tell whether the problem is cured.

How long have you had the bike and how long have you ridden it like this?


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

You can fix that by adding a shim in the dropout, probably on the front of the dropout of the cassette side. You probably got some wear from the chain pulling the axle up against that area.
I wouldn't re-dish the wheel, then the wheel would be wrong for any other bike.


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## ToiletSiphon (Jul 23, 2014)

Was in the same boat a few weeks ago. Fixed it with a little shim to the dropout, made with a piece of aluminum can glued to the dropout. Works great. 

Envoyé de mon XT1563 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

The dealer is an idiot. Find another one or contact BMC Canada and ask them who you should take it to. Non OEM parts/wheels should have nothing do to w/ this. BMC sells frames as well as complete bikes, it should not matter at all as long as you've confirmed that the wheel is properly centered.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

If the dealer checked the wheel with a dishing tool, and it's OK, the frame should be covered under warranty.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Another vote for 'It should definitely be a warranty issue'.

It's incomprehensible to me that a dealer would tell you 'it's not worth it'. Well maybe for them it's not, but it's YOUR bike, and YOUR money. It's part of what dealers do.

I would tell the dealer you would like to discuss the issue with the stores BMC rep, or, as CX suggested, contact BMC Canada (or USA, since it was purchased in the US). 

And I would *love* to see something in writing saying that rear dropouts being out by 3mm is within spec. That is absolutely ludicrous to me, especially for BMC, who engineers some of the best frames in the business.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> If the dealer checked the wheel with a dishing tool, and it's OK, the frame should be covered under warranty.


This because it's at least possible the wheel is the issue, not the frame. Make sure, and then pursue the warranty claim.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Something else puzzles me. The brake pad clearances are not equal.

Once you've personally verified the wheel dish is correct, I'd remove the brake arms and measure from the mounting posts to the rim. Maybe the posts are mounted cockeyed as well.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

duriel said:


> You can fix that by adding a shim in the dropout, probably on the front of the dropout of the cassette side.


I would give this a shot. Keep in mind that it doesn't take much of a discrepancy at the dropout to produce a 3mm offset at the rim. As an illustration only: With metal dropouts, a few swipes with a round file to lengthen one dropout slot ever so slightly would often eliminate a substantial offset at the rim.

I understand the desire to have a perfect frame, especially at that price. But sometimes, avoiding the warranty hassle makes sense.


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## MC357 (Oct 25, 2011)

I have a TMR01, with the same issue. It drives me crazy and I thought it was just the way it was...Any pics of the shim fix way?


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

Just to note, I've had tires that won't center. So a picture that shows the tire out of center but no rim is not exactly something I am going to go by. Not that I doubt the frame issue is there. Just something I have experienced.

Personally, I would check dish and try the shim idea, WHILE I pursued the issue with BMC. If you say that did not fix the issue (no hands test), then I think you are more likely to see action. 

You will also be more likely to see action if you have a letter from the dealer documenting the misalignment, or better yet pictures of the actual measurements being taken showing that to be the case.


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## hammermc (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks for all the responses. It convinced me to find another dealer to help with the warranty. We're now waiting for a verdict from BMC. I really hope the frame will be replaced. I really hope they come through. I wouldn't be bothered as much on a regular bike. But it just looks off on an aero frame where the tolerances are much tighter.



MC357 said:


> I have a TMR01, with the same issue. It drives me crazy and I thought it was just the way it was...Any pics of the shim fix way?


A regular metal washer will work. I got mine from a box of assorted ones from the hardware store. I'm wary of pulling the seatstays wider to compensate for the full 3mm. I still had to pull the dropouts wider to get a 1.5mm one in.

Not a complaint but for entertainment purposes, the LBS I ended up with was the 4th one I went to. The 2nd shop checked frame and dropout alignment and handed the bike back saying the wheel isn't dished. (Wheel is dished confirmed by me + first shop.) 3rd shop quoted $400 for the labour + shipping


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

One does not shim the chainstays wider, you shim the space inside the dropout (where the axle meets the slot, inside the slot), to the front or rear.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

hammermc said:


> A regular metal washer will work. I got mine from a box of assorted ones from the hardware store. I'm wary of pulling the seatstays wider to compensate for the full 3mm. I still had to pull the dropouts wider to get a 1.5mm one in.


The shim I was talking about would be a home-made stopper that pushes the drive-side end of the hub axle very slightly rearwards. But now I know that your dropouts are vertical or near vertical. So this is most likely not a solution.

Just for grins: The TM01 with its horizontal dropouts had clever wheel adjusters enabling you to get the wheel dead-center in the frame. Printed page 14/15 at the link:
http://www.bmc-switzerland.com/file...ort/Manuals/TM01/TM01_OwnersManual2012_EN.pdf 

Didn't see duriel's post in time.


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## hammermc (Aug 7, 2010)

duriel said:


> One does not shim the chainstays wider, you shim the space inside the dropout (where the axle meets the slot, inside the slot), to the front or rear.


i should have been more clear. i put the metal washer in between the dropout and the hub. the center of the washer slips over the end part of the hub.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Obviously the pictures don't show it, but from your original post I'm to understand the wheel is visually off-center at BOTH the chainstays and the seatstays. If it were one but not the other, and the wheel dish is correct as you say, then I'd say it's possible it's not a frame ALIGNMENT problem per se, but a construction issue. I'm referring to the dropouts not being precisely in the correct location, causing the wheel to sit skewed. If the dropouts were steel or aluminum, it would be common to file a dropout a little to get the wheel to sit square, but your dropouts are carbon.

Keep us informed whether BMC hooks you up with a replacement frame. I'm guessing you're from England by the way you spelled "labour". With all the framebuilders in England, it would almost be worth your while to take the frame to an independent framebuilder to confirm frame alignment or dropout location. I'm from the U.S. and did exactly that with a new, custom steel frame that I suspected was poorly aligned. It was worth the money as I was right, and had proof. The builder didn't argue after that and gave me a refund.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

hammermc said:


> i should have been more clear. i put the metal washer in between the dropout and the hub. the center of the washer slips over the end part of the hub.


I get what your saying, but obviously you are not understanding what needs to be done.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

Things to do in order of doing them.

-Prove it's the frame and not the wheel (as others said check the dish).
-If it passes above (correct dish) warrantee through another channel.
-If it fails above (warrantee denied) and you are wiling to file/grind your dropout area a very, very small amount at a time to tunk it in then rework the dropout. You have to be 100% willing to sign on to this, it can work but do so at your peril.

Things to not do in order of not doing them:

-Re-dish a properly dished wheel to compensate.
-Rework the drop-outs if you aren't up to the task.


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## akamp (Jan 14, 2009)

I would rather re dish the wheel then file the dropout or shim the axle. The frame got spit out a mold with thousands of others. Unless there is a noticeable defect on the dropout I would bet money it is the wheel.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

akamp said:


> The frame got spit out a mold with thousands of others. Unless there is a noticeable defect on the dropout I would bet money it is the wheel.


True about those frames getting spit out of a mold. But the defect could have been introduced after the frame was formed. And a defect at the dropout doesn't have to be all that noticeable to produce a 3 mm misalignment at the rim. 

If, for example, the frame is clear-coated, a moment of inattention by the sprayer could have resulted in an excessively thick layer of lacquer settling unevenly on the inside of one dropout. You see such a clear coat issue often on forks that seem to have an undersized brake bolt hole. A bit of reaming, and the bolt goes right in.

I do have say that with vertical dropouts, a wheel being off center at the chain stays does point more to a frame alignment issue. But I don't know if the dropouts on that BMC machine are vertical or if not, how far from the vertical they are.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Are you sure the wheel dish is correct?


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Get over the 'dish' of the wheel, look at the pictures... with the wheel in one way, the space is tight, the other picture the wheel is the other way and the same space it tight on the same side of the frame. End of the wheel 'dish', forget it!


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

OK, while the shim ideas are all viable (and something that I would do if this were a $100 bike I'd picked up on Craigslist), this is a completely different situation. You paid for a PREMIUM bike, and you got [email protected] Sorry, but that's what happened. If the dealer 'can't honor the warranty', I would start using terms like "litigation" and "lawsuit" with them to get a fire lit under their @$$es. Considering what this bike cost, it should be nothing less than perfect. If this had happened to me, I'd be screaming bloody murder.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

akamp said:


> I would rather re dish the wheel then file the dropout or shim the axle. The frame got spit out a mold with thousands of others. Unless there is a noticeable defect on the dropout I would bet money it is the wheel.


I won't encourage you to do anything that you do not want to do. I would however, discourage you from re-dishing a properly dished wheel in this case as you'd have to dish it off centerline toward the drive side.


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## hammermc (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks all who responded. No one (final lbs or bmc) ever got back to me about the warranty after I sent pics, and info to the shop. My only option was the upscale shop that would charge around $500 (labour+shipping) which I was not comfortable with. 

Rode the bike once in a while with a fat washer on the skewer and it didn't crack the frame after a few months.

I ended up selling the timemachine, along with a roadmachine on craigslist recently. I had forgotten to register the warranty on the RM within 30 days, so that kinda hurt. Was my fault but (what is the point of this other than getting out of providing a warranty?), it was the final nail in the coffin for me and BMC. 

I'm now waiting for Canyon bikes to open up shop to get some new bikes. (riding a junky boat anchor till then) Going canyon for the direct sales approach. I'm done having to be locked into dealers for service and support.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

So, did u tell the person who you sold it to about your issue?


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## hammermc (Aug 7, 2010)

duriel said:


> So, did u tell the person who you sold it to about your issue?


no, I bought it while travelling. I'd have to ship it just to get inspected.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Obviously, your morals & mechanical skills are at near the same level, your on ignore.


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## hammermc (Aug 7, 2010)

duriel said:


> Obviously, your morals & mechanical skills are at near the same level, your on ignore.


good, glad I'll never have to read any more of your snob replies. 

For everyone else, my bikes were sold to a friend who's knows, doesn't care and got a great deal on >6 month old bikes.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

duriel said:


> Obviously, your morals & mechanical skills are at near the same level, your on ignore.


Wow. Uncalled for.


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## hernluis (May 1, 2014)

This is bringing back nightmares. I had a similar issue with a cannondale bike I purchased. Took it back to the dealer and the idiot mechanic was telling me other wise. I made him look at other bikes on the floor that did not have the issue and even had him swap another rear wheel and same issue resulted. I made him take pictures and turns out the frame was defective and cannondale replaced the frame but the dealer than stuck me with ridiculous cost to swap parts over. Shimming did correct the problem but it was a new 3K bike. Now that shop is closed, karma I guess. But damn, I shouldn't have to do others job for them, talk about incompetence.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

.....


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

duriel said:


> Obviously, your morals & mechanical skills are at near the same level, your on ignore.


give out mechanical advice, not moral advice man


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