# Damn low spoke count wheels!



## OrbeaNZ (Aug 23, 2013)

Hi, I've been spending quite a bit of time on the wheel forum learning about wheels and trying to unlearn the effect marketing has had on me over the years. 
I've got a set of Mavic kysrium sl's (victim of marketing) which I've had for 10 years but have only done about 2000 km's. Yesterday I was climbing a small hill and had a rear ds spoke let go. The wheel went so far out of true that I had to remove a brake pad to get home and even then the tyre was rubbing against the frame. Luckily I was only a few km's from home. Now this didn't come as a surprise as I'd read all about the con's of low spoke count wheels on here. I took the wheel to my lbs and to replace all the ds spokes the cost is about NZD$120 which also wasn't a surprise. The bike shop guy showed me 3 other mavic rear wheels, all with the same problem. 
I'd been planning a new set of wheels but couldn't justify it but maybe now is a good time as I've lost confidence in those Mavic's.

I had been looking at the following spec from Prowheelbuilder

White ind T11 hubs

HED C2 or Pacenti rims - I'd like to try the 23mm rims although I'm concerned about tight tyre fitting on the Pacenti so leaning towards the C2's.

Sapim Cx Ray spokes, brass nipples, 2x fr, 3x rear. 

Spoke count 24/28 or 24/32? I'm guessing I won't feel any gains from having 4 spokes less(20gr)? but obviously I'd gain in strength. These will be used for charity events , not everyday use.

I'm 190lbs, enjoy climbing, reasonably good roads. I don't race, just try to improve PB times on charity rides. I've just started running conti gp4000s 25mm. 

Comments or suggestions?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm just an amateur wheelbuilder. I'm the same weight as you 190#.

Built up a set of Pacenti's a few months ago. They have stayed straight over very rough roads and MUT's we have here. Build was 20/28 radial front and 2X on the rear. Spokes were Lasers. 

I have been very pleased overall with them. Tire mounting is tight, but no worse in my experience than with Campy wheels for example.

I also had an old Ksyrium where a DS spoke got tired of life. Tire jammed into the frame. Got transit home. In my case I just replaced the broken spoke. Like to live dangerously.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

So ... you are complaining about low spoke count rims, then suggest 24/28 spoke count as a build option for a 190 pound rider (even if general riding)???

Why not go with a 28/32 ... or even 32/32 for a really strong wheel? 

With that combo you get a nice, stiff wheel without any real weight penalty (and what you gain, you won't notice) ... and a very strong set of wheels, where if a spoke does break, you will be able to ride home just by opening your brake quick release (with a 24 spoke you may/may not be able to).

My general training set is 28/32 with a Powertap rear hub, Dura Ace front and open pro rims. I've had this set up for several years now and put somewhere in the neighborhood of 25,000 miles on them ... most of which is pretty hard riding and some racing.

My race weight is around 192 pounds and winter weight around 200-205 pounds ... so heavier than you, though not by much.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Wookiebiker said:


> So ... you are complaining about low spoke count rims, then suggest 24/28 spoke count as a build option for a 190 pound rider (even if general riding)???
> 
> Why not go with a 28/32 ... or even 32/32 for a really strong wheel?


What he said. I am completely confused about the desire to go with low spoke counts. I learned my lesson 15 years ago when a spoke broke on a nearly new factory wheel set (24 spoke) and I could not ride the bike home because the tire hit the frame so hard. Never again. The performance gains are non-existent, durability is compromised, and so is lateral strength. What's wrong with this picture?


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

My old wheels are Mavic SSC ES helium ltd ed.. so low spoke count.. I'm @ 185lb so right up there with you guys.. never had an issue. My new Enve3.4s are 20/24 with a power tap hub.. I dont expect to have any issues....


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## OrbeaNZ (Aug 23, 2013)

Wookiebiker said:


> So ... you are complaining about low spoke count rims, then suggest 24/28 spoke count as a build option for a 190 pound rider (even if general riding)???


I guess my definition of low is slightly different to yours. The broken ones are 20/20. I wouldn't define 24/28 as low. But that's the whole point of the question. If the real world difference between 24/28 and 28/32 is unnoticeable that's great. That's what I wanted to know.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

OrbeaNZ said:


> If the real world difference between 24/28 and 28/32 is unnoticeable that's great. That's what I wanted to know.


You won't notice any difference between a 24 and 28 spoke wheel.

People spend way to much time obsessing about weight, even with wheels. The climbing difference between my CAAD10 with the open pro wheels and my commuter bike with disc brakes, 28c Gatorskin tires, 32 spokes f/r and an extra 8 pounds of overall weight is minimal. 

Looking at my STRAVA climb times and power profiles it's almost meaningless which bike I ride up a climb ... the only difference would be over a 4 hour ride, I would notice it "A little" ... but not much.

You are not racing, so there is no need to go super light or low spoke count. Go with durability and you will be happy ... not only because of a stronger wheel, but if the off chance you break a spoke, you will be able to ride home (it was the crappy stock wheel that came with my CX/Commute bike). I've ridden home on a 32 spoke rear wheel that had "2" broken spokes ... try that on a lower spoke count wheel


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

The ideal spoke count is dependent on a number of factors. The biggest one IMO being rim selection. If you're on a soft hoop it's a good idea to go with a 28/32 or even 32/32. But as spdntrxi mentioned a stiff hoop like the 3.4 can easily be ridden in a 20/24 for 99% of riders.


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## mattotoole (Jan 3, 2008)

Whatever rim you have, the spokes are what support it and determine how "soft" it is. Note the stiffest wheel measured here is a 36h Mavic 330, the "softest" rim that many would dare to ride:

Aero Wheels Under Scrutiny, by Franois Grignon


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Zen Cyclery said:


> The ideal spoke count is dependent on a number of factors. The biggest one IMO being rim selection. If you're on a soft hoop it's a good idea to go with a 28/32 or even 32/32. But as spdntrxi mentioned a stiff hoop like the 3.4 can easily be ridden in a 20/24 for 99% of riders.


I hope you... you built em  I love them BTW.


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## Andreas_Illesch (Jul 9, 2002)

mattotoole said:


> Note the stiffest wheel measured here is a 36h Mavic 330, the "softest" rim that many would dare to ride


And now with as many spokes but f.e. with a DT Swiss R585 rim...


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## blm (Nov 20, 2001)

Zen Cyclery said:


> The ideal spoke count is dependent on a number of factors. The biggest one IMO being rim selection. If you're on a soft hoop it's a good idea to go with a 28/32 or even 32/32. But as spdntrxi mentioned a stiff hoop like the 3.4 can easily be ridden in a 20/24 for 99% of riders.


+1: first I weight 20 pounds less. I did break a few spokes in my life. The one that caused the most rim misalignement was on an aluminium rim, 24 spokes), still with opening the rear brake I made it home...with a big lumpy ride.

The two others: 32 spoke, RDS, low box rim: no sweat, less of a bump. Finally a few weeks ago I broke a RDS Sapim cx-ray, they do break sometimes, on a 38mm carbon tubular with 24 spokes(Boyd) but the wheel stayed true, no need to adjust the brake, impressive.

So basically it all depends on the type of rim/spoke count combination.


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