# 'Splain me why Marianne Vos is not the greatest living bike racer?



## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Seriously. http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/04/road/2011-la-fleche-wallonne-feminine-results_169532 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_Vos


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## thebadger (Jul 27, 2002)

Best WOMAN cyclist AT THE PRESENT TIME. That I will agree to


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

thebadger said:


> Best WOMAN cyclist AT THE PRESENT TIME. That I will agree to


Ah, she's a chick. She can't be better than the boys ... gotcha.

I can't think of one other active rider with a resume like hers. Few from history come to mind, even.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

I guess you've never heard of Jeannie Longo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannie_Longo

Olympic Games road race: Gold Medal/Champion (1996); Silver Medal (1992)
Olympic Games time trial: Silver Medal (1996); Bronze Medal (2000)
5x UCI Road Race World Championship: Gold Medal/Champion (1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1995)
4x UCI Time Trial World Championship: Gold Medal/Champion (1995, 1996, 1997, 2001)
4x UCI Track World Championship: Points Race: Gold Medal/Champion (1989)
3 km Pursuit: Gold Medal/Champion (1986, 1988, 1989); Silver Medal (1984, 1985, 1987); Bronze Medal (1981, 1982, 1983)

UCI Mountain Bike Championship: Silver Medal (1993)
15x French Road Race Champion: 1979 to 1989, 1992, 1995, 2006, 2008
9x French Time Trial Champion: 1995, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
3x Tour Cycliste Feminin / Grande Boucle: 1987, 1988, 1989
2x Women's Challenge: 1991, 1999
Set Hour Record (45.094 km/h) in 2000 in Mexico City (14 years after setting the best hour performance record)1

etc...etc...etc...made the French Womens Olympic team for Bejing at 50 years old. Well 2 months shy of 50.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Keski said:


> I guess you've never heard of Jeannie Longo


Oh, I've heard of her. I guess the title of the thread should have been "active," and not "living" rider. Good call. I soopose Ed M. and maybe Roger dV. would be better than her as well with the term "living."


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Pablo said:


> Oh, I've heard of her. I guess the title of the thread should have been "active," and not "living" rider. Good call. I soopose Ed M. and maybe Roger dV. would be better than her as well with the term "living."


Jeannie is active, she won the national time trial last year.


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## InfiniteLoop (Mar 20, 2010)

Might need to define 'greatest'. I was in a cafe a couple of months ago, these two gals came in and my buddy struck up a conversation with them. One of them was Emma Johansson. To be that um, pretty, and a great bike racer.... They moved over to talk to us and I was feeling like... oh well...


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Pablo said:


> Oh, I've heard of her. I guess the title of the thread should have been "active," and not "living" rider. Good call. I soopose Ed M. and maybe Roger dV. would be better than her as well with the term "living."



I know somebody already said it but it warrants being spoken again. Jeannie Longo is still quite active. She won her first national championship 32 years ago and is wearing a national champion jersey today. She is one of the most impressive athletes alive.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

and she used to show up at US events registered under the name Jean Longo and race in the mens 1-2 (back when most top riders were still on amateur national teams).


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

Not to mention she's like 24, so imagine what is in store for her!


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Marianne Vos can win anything, it seems. Very impressive.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

To answer the OP: as soon as she beats / equals palmares like Merckx et al. 

Yes, she has to beat the men in order to be the "greatest"...


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

thebadger said:


> Best WOMAN cyclist AT THE PRESENT TIME. That I will agree to


Here let me help you out. Best CYCLIST at the present time. you can only judge people respective to their competition. 

Her gender dosn't matter at the current time she is the best all rounder out there riding a bike. She has legit competition in every field and can still win on almost any course and in track, cross and road that is down right impressive.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> To answer the OP: as soon as she beats / equals palmares like Merckx et al.


Did Merckx win any cross races?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

kbwh said:


> Marianne Vos can win anything, it seems. Very impressive.


Vos will be more impressive than Longo when she is done. She is also competing at a time when the field is much more competitive than in Longo's prime. Vos is absolutely amazing to watch - cyclocross, track, road, she can do anything.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

32and3cross said:


> Here let me help you out. Best CYCLIST at the present time. you can only judge people respective to their competition.
> 
> Her gender dosn't matter at the current time she is the best all rounder out there riding a bike. She has legit competition in every field and can still win on almost any course and in track, cross and road that is down right impressive.


I disagree. Apples and oranges. Since Vos is racing among female cyclists only, she is the BEST *female* cyclist. The female field is not as competitive or deep as male field. If someone totally dominates local racing scene in, say, Kansas City, that would only make them the best cyclist in Kansas City, not the best cyclist anywhere, ever - even if their dominance of local racing scene is more impressive than Vos' dominance of women races or Cancellara's time trial dominance or whatever.


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## claphands (Apr 24, 2009)

I just looked at her (long) list of achievements and just notice she has finished 2nd 4 years in a row in the RR world championships. I bet that is one she wants real bad this year.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

55x11 said:


> I disagree. Apples and oranges. Since Vos is racing among female cyclists only, she is the BEST *female* cyclist. The female field is not as competitive or deep as male field. If someone totally dominates local racing scene in, say, Kansas City, that would only make them the best cyclist in Kansas City, not the best cyclist anywhere, ever - even if their dominance of local racing scene is more impressive than Vos' dominance of women races or Cancellara's time trial dominance or whatever.


We'll start calling her the best femal professional cyclist (btw the professional part makes you compairson to a local Kansas racer not relivant) when we start inserting best "male" cyclist before mens names.

BTW just to be stright I said she was the best cyclist riding right now - not ever. She is dominate in every event except TTs and MTBs there is no pro male cyclist riding right that can claim that. The feild smaynot be a deep as the mens but there is plenty of compitition so your wrong in that part as well.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

32and3cross said:


> We'll start calling her the best femal professional cyclist (btw the professional part makes you compairson to a local Kansas racer not relivant) when we start inserting best "male" cyclist before mens names.


If you called Fabian "the best male cyclist," it would imply that there were women who could beat him. Which there aren't.

When you call Vos "the best female cyclist," it correctly implies that there are (many) men who could beat her. It's not sexist to qualify the statement with her gender, it's simply accurate.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Keski said:


> I guess you've never heard of Jeannie Longo
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannie_Longo
> 
> ...


Bingo...Keski gets it! Vos has a damn long way to go to top that record. She is the female Eddie M.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pretender said:


> If you called Fabian "the best male cyclist," it would imply that there were women who could beat him. Which there aren't.
> 
> When you call Vos "the best female cyclist," it correctly implies that there are (many) men who could beat her. It's not sexist to qualify the statement with her gender, it's simply accurate.



Actually it is IMO sexist. She is the best all round pro rider riding at the moment regarless of gender. We can get in to all sort of arguments as to weither men can beat women or vs versa (trust me their are women that can beat men out there even pro men i.e. Vos vs a pro men's road racer in a cross race) but compaired to her compitition and considering the number of events and types of races she competes in she's the best riding ATM.

just for compairison here is Fabin's results vs Vos's From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Fabian:
1998 
1st World Junior Championship Individual Time Trial 
1999 
1st World Junior Championship Individual Time Trial 
2000 
2nd World U23 Championship Individual Time Trial 
2001 
1st Overall Tour of Rhodes 
1st Prologue 
1st GP Eddy Merckx 
1st Duo Normand 
2002 
1st National Time Trial Champion 
1st GP Eddy Merckx 
1st Overall GP Erik Breukink 
1st Stage 3b 
1st Overall Tour of Rhodes 
1st Prologue 
1st ZLM Tour 
1st Stage 1 Österreich Rundfahrt 
1st Stage 3 Ytong Bohemia Tour 
2003 
1st Prologue Tour de Suisse 
1st Prologue Tour de Romandie 
1st Points Classification 
1st Stage 4 Tour of Belgium 
1st Stage 6 (TTT) Tour Méditerranéen 
2004 
1st National Time Trial Championship 
1st Prologue, Tour de France 
1st Stage 1 Setmana Catalana 
1st Stage 4 Tour de Luxembourg 
1st Stage 4 Tour of Qatar 
2005 
1st National Time Trial Championship 
1st Stage 4 Paris–Nice 
1st Stage 4 Tour de Luxembourg 
1st Stage 5 Setmana Catalana 
3rd Time Trial World Championship 
2006 
1st UCI Road World Championship Time Trial 
1st National Time Trial Championship 
1st Paris–Roubaix 
1st Prologue Volta a Catalunya 
1st Stage 5 Tirreno–Adriatico 
1st Overall Danmark Rundt 
1st Stage 2 
1st Stage 5 
1st Stage 1 TTT Vuelta a España 
2007 
1st UCI Road World Championship Time Trial 
1st National Time Trial Champion 
1st Prologue Tour de France 
1st Stage 3 Tour de France 
1st Prologue Tour of Switzerland 
1st Stage 9 Tour of Switzerland 
2008 
1st Olympic Time Trial Champion 
2nd Olympic Road Race 
1st National Time Trial Championship 
1st Milan – San Remo 
1st Prologue, Tour of California 
1st Monte Paschi Eroica 
1st Overall Tirreno–Adriatico 
1st Stage 5 
1st Stage 7 Tour de Suisse 
1st Stage 9 Tour de Suisse 
1st Points classification 
2009 
1st UCI Road World Championship Time Trial 
1st National Road Race Champion 
1st Stage 1, Tour de France (ITT) 
1st Stage 1 (ITT) Vuelta a España 
1st Stage 7 (ITT) Vuelta a España 
1st Prologue, Tour of California 
1st Overall Tour de Suisse 
1st Prologue 
1st Stage 9 (ITT) 
1st Points classification 
2010 
1st UCI Road World Championship Time Trial 
1st Overall Tour of Oman 
1st Paris–Roubaix 
1st Ronde van Vlaanderen 
1st E3 Prijs Vlaanderen 
1st Prologue Tour de Suisse 
1st Prologue (ITT) Tour de France 
1st Stage 19 (ITT) Tour de France 
2011 
1st Stage 7 (ITT) Tirreno–Adriatico 
1st E3 Prijs Vlaanderen 
2nd Milan – San Remo 
2nd Paris–Roubaix 
3rd Ronde van Vlaanderen

Vos:
2002 
1st Dutch National Mountain Biking Championships (Junior) 
1st Dutch National Road Race Championships (Junior) 
2nd Dutch National Time Trial Championships (Junior) 
2003 
1st Dutch National Mountain Biking Championships (Junior) 
2nd Dutch National Time Trial Championships (Junior) 
2004 
1st Cyclo-cross race in Gieten 
3rd Dutch National Road Race Championships (Junior) 
3rd Dutch National Time Trial Championships (Junior) 
1st Cyclo-cross race in Surhuisterveen 
1st Cyclo-cross race in Pijnacker-Nootdorp 
1st Dutch National Mountain Biking Championships (Junior) 
1st UCI Road World Championships - Junior Women's Road Race 
2005 
2nd UCI Road World Championships - Junior Women's Road Race (Juniors) 
1st European Championship Cyclo-cross 
2nd Dutch National Cyclo-cross Championships 
1st Dutch National Road Race Championships (Juniors) 
3rd Dutch National Time Trial Championships (Juniors) 
1st Dutch National Mountain Biking Championships (Juniors) 
1st Mountain Bike World Cup meeting in Houffalize (Juniors) 
1st Mountain Bike race in Heeswijk 
1st Omloop van Borsele 
1st Cyclo-cross race in Harderwijk 
1st Cyclo-cross race in Sumar 
1st Cyclo-cross race in Gieten 
1st Cyclo-cross race in Loenhout 
2006 
1st UCI Road Race World Championships 
1st UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships 
1st European Road Race Championships 
3rd UCI Cyclo-cross European Championships 
1st Dutch National Road Race Championships 
2nd Dutch National Cyclo-cross Championships 
1st Cyclo-cross race in Pétange 
1st Stage 5, Gracia-Orlova 
1st Omloop van Borsele 
1st Stage 1, Emakumeen Bira 
1st Omloop van Valkenburg 
1st Overall Tour Féminin en Limousin 
1st Stage 1, Tour Féminin en Limousin 
1st Stage 3, Tour Féminin en Limousin 
1st Criterium Steenwijk 
1st Draai van de Kaai 
1st Criterium Oostvoorne 
1st Criterium Pijnacker 
1st Stage 4, Trophée d'Or Féminin 
2007 
1st UCI Women's Road World Cup 
1st La Flèche Wallonne Féminine (World Cup) 
1st Rund um die Nürnberger Altstadt (World Cup) 
1st Ronde van Gelderland (1.2 W) 
1st Overall, Giro di San Marino (2.1 W) 
1st Stage 1 ITT, Giro di San Marino (2.1 W) 
1st Stage 2, Giro di San Marino (2.1 W) 
1st Stage 3, Giro di San Marino (2.1 W) 
1st Omloop van Borsele (1.2 W) 
1st Stage 1, Tour de l'Aude Cycliste Féminin (2.1 W) 
1st Stage 2, Emakumeen Bira (2.1 W) 
1st Stage 3, Emakumeen Bira (2.1 W) 
2nd Overall, Emakumeen Bira (2.1 W) 
1st Stage 2, Giro d'Italia Femminile (2.1 W) 
2nd UCI Road World Championships 
2008 
1st UCI Track Cycling World Championships - Points Race 
1 Gold Olympic Games - Points race 
1st La Flèche Wallonne Féminine 
1st Dutch National Road Race Championships 
2nd UCI Road World Championships 
2009 
1st UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships 
1st La Flèche Wallonne Féminine 
1st Dutch National Road Race Championships 
2nd UCI Road World Championships 
2010 
1st UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships 
1st Dutch National Time Trial Championships 
2nd Ronde van Vlaanderen voor Vrouwen 
2nd UCI Road World Championships 
2011 
1st Dutch National Cyclo-cross Championships 
1st UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships 
1st UCI Track World Championships, Scratch race 
1st Ronde van Drenthe 
1st La Flèche Wallonne Féminine 

Considering both the facts that Vos competes all year round and the fact she is 7 years younger I'd say she is better all around compaired her competition than Fabian (who is amazing) is (sorry I don't see Fabian beating Nys or Stybar in a cross race any time soon, or winning a points race tho I'm sure he could tear the track up if he wanted).

I'd also say she is under more pressure to compete in so many different events to be as marketable as she can (tho I'm sure she enjoys them as well), if she made more on the road I would guess you would see he competeing less in cross and on the track


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Cancellara would shellac Vos in cyclocross, just like he would in TT, road race, crit, and tiddly-winks.


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## climbinthebigring (Mar 13, 2011)

I have to agree if cancellara practiced cross for even a few hours he would beat her. The fact of the matter is women give birth, men don't. The build of men and women are so vastly different that there is no way that a women will ever be competitive in a mens sport at the professional level (although there may be some crazy anomaly were a women was, or is but I would bet it is a niche sport that doesn't have a deep pool of talent, this is of course if such a situation existed)

Its not sexist its just a fact.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

32and3cross said:


> Actually it is IMO sexist. She is the best all round pro rider riding at the moment regarless of gender. We can get in to all sort of arguments as to weither men can beat women or vs versa (trust me their are women that can beat men out there even pro men i.e. Vos vs a pro men's road racer in a cross race) but compaired to her compitition and considering the number of events and types of races she competes in she's the best riding ATM.
> 
> just for compairison here is Fabin's results vs Vos's From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> 
> ...


She cannot be compared to male riders, because she doesn't race against them, but if she did, she wouldn't have a chance in hell of winning anything. Therefore she is the best female rider. 

To say this is "sexist" is insane. The very reason women race against other women is because most reasonable people understand there are physiological differences between men and women. Again, nothing sexist about admitting these differences exist.

Paula Radcliff is the women's world record holder in marathon. Is she faster than Haile Gebrselassie? No, she is not. 

Marianne Vos is NOT the best human cyclist. She is the best FEMALE cyclist. If there was a intergalactic olympics and human race was to be represented by any human, regardless of gender, Vos wouldn't make the cut. It would be Contador, Schleck, Cavendish, Cancellara, etc.

Having said all of that, Vos never ceases to amaze me, by the way she totally dominates other FEMALE riders.


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

When the women have had as much time to develop their sport as the men and get as much incentives/coverage and have less societal factors affecting their athletics, and are still outperformed by men I would accept the above statements. However, right now it is nothing but sexist to suggest they are always going to be worse due to physiology.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pretender said:


> Cancellara would shellac Vos in cyclocross, just like he would in TT, road race, crit, and tiddly-winks.


Who said she would?


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

55x11 said:


> She cannot be compared to male riders, because she doesn't race against them, but if she did, she wouldn't have a chance in hell of winning anything. Therefore she is the best female rider.
> 
> To say this is "sexist" is insane. The very reason women race against other women is because most reasonable people understand there are physiological differences between men and women. Again, nothing sexist about admitting these differences exist.
> 
> ...


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## TheDon (Feb 3, 2006)

She's pretty good, but not GoAT. If her career ended tomorrow we would only talk about how much more she could've accomplished. If Longo's career ended tomorrow we would talk about how much she has accomplished.


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## climbinthebigring (Mar 13, 2011)

32and3cross said:


> Who said she would?


You did. 

The fact that you think a women could actually compete with men on a professinal level astounds me. Men, as a whole, are taller stronger and faster. Women give birth. Its been this way ever since the first primates appeared on earth. 

I am in know way demeaning a womens accomplishment. They work just as hard as the guys to win their field of competition. But, you really can not compare the two. If you believe that they are one in the same, well....


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> Actually it is IMO sexist. She is the best all round pro rider riding at the moment regarless of gender.


yeah, right. What's the level of competition in women's cycling? I bet it's much lower than in men's. I see the same gels taking podiums year-in, year-out. It says enough about quality of the field. It applies to XC, CX, road, track, bmx, stunt riding, anything competitive. Why Longo's been reigning in French cycling for so long? Not only because she's hard working and gifted. Just because there haven't been any female or male Longos, Fignons and Hinaults in French cycling for more than 20 years.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Women don't have the aerobic capacity of top male athletes. 

There's said to be about 10% difference. You throw in the muscle mass, huge lungs and strength of say a Cancellara and it would be hard to find any men that could come up with those genetics let alone the occasional genetic freak among women.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Cause Jeannie Longo is still around. :thumbsup:


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

tinkerbeast said:


> When the women have had as much time to develop their sport as the men and get as much incentives/coverage and have less societal factors affecting their athletics, and are still outperformed by men I would accept the above statements. However, right now it is nothing but sexist to suggest they are always going to be worse due to physiology.


Athletic achievement is physiologically based, to suggest that women can "practice" their way past this barrier shows that you don't have even a rudimentary understanding of the concept. What societal barrier is it that gives women less genetic athletic ability?

Oh and by the way, Vos kicks ass, best compliment I've heard about her is "she races like a man".


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