# White Industries T11 or Chris King R45 hubs?



## Lookbiker

Hi all,
Getting a custom wheelset and looking at getting either White Industries T11 or CK R45 hubs (Campy). Both are very good and my logical side says WH but I've always liked CK red hubs. Thoughts? The front will be radially laced if that makes a difference. 

Thanks


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## MarkThailand

I wrote this in another forum and have copied what I wrote there.

I currently have four wheels, all using the White Industries hubs. All were custom built by Richard of Prowheelbuilder.com.

Two are for 10-speed drivetrains (SRAM Red) and two are for 10-/11-speed drivetrains (Shimano 9070).

Normally I try not to be an early adopter but I decided last year that I just had to try the new Shimano 11-speed DI2 for my next custom bike...

My three training wheelsets all use HED. C2 clincher rims.

1) Decent city road training
Front wheel: WI MI5 hub, 28 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 2x, DT Swiss Prolock Hex nipples, Vittoria Open Pave EVO CG 24mm tire, Latex tubes
Rear wheel: WI H3 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 3x, DT Swiss Prolock Hex nipples, Vittoria Open Pave EVO CG 24c tire, Latex tubes

2) Seaside/Countryside
Front wheel: WI MI5 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced radial, brass nipples, Continental 4000s 25c tire, Vittoria Ultralite butyl tubes.
Rear wheel: WI H3 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 3x, brass nipples, Continental 4000s 25c tire, Vittoria Ultralite butyl tubes.

3) Countryside
Front wheel: WI T11 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 3x, brass nipples, Vittoria Open Corsa CX 25c, Vittoria Ultralite butyl tubes.
Rear wheel: WI T11 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 3x, brass nipples, Vittoria Open Corsa CX 25c, Vittoria Ultralite butyl tubes.

My climbing/fair day/indulgence/now favorite wheelset uses the ENVE 3.4 Tubular rims with Veloflex tires.

4) Favorite
Front wheel: WI T11 hub, 20 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 2x, Veloflex Carbon Black 23c.
Rear wheel: WI T11 hub, 24 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 2x, Veloflex Arenberg 25c.

A bit about myself:

Well, I am fat at 195lbs, have ridden seriously for only 2-3 years, am a spinner/masher at an average cadence of 90-95 rpm, am 44 year old with a partially torn right ACL due to skiing, rarely get out of the saddle to pedal, do not produce massive watts with a FTP of about 175, and generally ride solo 80-100 km in 3-4 hours on both Saturday and Sundays as my exercise training rides. I try to do a solo centuries (100 miles or 160 km) in 5-6 hours on coastal roads about once a month.

In the past 15 months, I have ridden about 10000 km on one training wheel set for the 10-speed bike and another 2000 km on the other training wheel set for the other 10-speed powermeter bike, without any issues with the wheels and they have stayed completely true and round - and I have ridden on rough countryside roads and salt farm roads where the salt crystals have caused punctures.

So far, I have only ridden about 1500 km on my WI T11 wheel sets for the 11-speed DI2 bike and have not noticed any spoke-unwinding issues nor flexing issues - but that might be because I am fairly gentle on my wheels. 

So, to my decision process in choosing White Industries hubs over Chris King hubs...

Before I built my third and fourth pair for my 11-speed bike so and after reading a thread about problems with 11-speed wheels and hubs, I sent a couple of emails regarding hub selection to Richard of Prowheelbuilder.com, and a side email to Jason Woznick of Fairwheelbikes and to Wheelbuilder.com.

I would like to share excerpts of the email conversations:
________________________________

From John Olson of Wheelbuilder.com:

"The ORC-UL has been very delayed. We were supposed to get them in March (2013), but have not really seen any. I would look the CK at this point because we really have no idea when the UL would be ready for builds. I find CK to be very reliable. I found the ELF to not be very durable for larger riders. They are finicky and I would not recommend them to riders over 165 pounds. Also they have some play in them and if you overclamp you can destroy the bearings."

From Jason Woznick of Fairwheelbikes (he is one of the authors of the FWB 11-speed hub review):

"I like both the Alchemy (Mark: ORC-UL) and the King (Mark: CK45), but would probably choose the King over the Alchemy. If the rim was not so stiff then there might be more of a difference but in this case the rim (Mark: ENVE 6.7) is so stiff that the hub really doesn’t matter all that much. I’d choose the durability/reliability of the King over the Alchemy.

I’d also recommend the DT240 over the King. The reason is that it has a better left/right tension ratio which helps keep non-drive spokes from going slack better than the King. You also get the same durability/reliability of the King, but with a hub that can be serviced at any shop in the country. Most shops do not have the proper tools to fully service a king hub."

From Richard at Prowheelbuiler.com:

"So my thoughts on White Industries versus Chris King, I have listed a pro’s and con’s list below for you to review. Please keep in mind that both are great hubs and although there are several differences none will be a huge difference in the next 5 to 6 years and both hubs can be kept in service well past 10 years (although the White Ind T11 will last longer).

White Ind Pro’s 
Non proprietary bearings
Side load adjustable 
Titanium driver body 
Cromoly axle 15mm 
Large Ball Bearings 
Non shouldered axle design 
Lowest drag driver mech.
Great value

White Ind Con’s 
Heavy (29 grams over ck r45) 
Set screw collet 

Chris King Pro’s
Non radially loading driver mechanism
Side load adjustable (with threaded collet)
Quick engagement
Multiple color options
Light (29 grams lighter than wi t11)
Non shouldered axle design

Chris King Con’s
Very high drag driver mech.
Proprietary bearings ($45 each)
Proprietary tools needed for service.
Aluminum driver body.
Expensive

The article you reference (Mark: I referred him to the FWB 11-speed hub review) mostly speaks about flange diameter and placement. As I build with a lot of different hubs I have found that this makes far less of a difference than the article would have you believe. But that being said the T11 is better than the R45 in this as well however I would definitely (Mark sp) not let that be a concern. Hope this helps. Thank you." 

I also sent an email to White Industries and got back the following emails. I am impressed with their level of customer service in their willingness to reply to an email from a random person - their response is probably a bit biased towards WI but understandable:

From Lynette Toepfer of White Industries:

"I pulled up the blog (Mark: I referred them to the FWB 11-speed article) and read through it. As you were able to read there are a lot of challenges with the new 11 speed system that Shimano introduced and it has been a difficulty for all hub manufacturers. The bracing angle isn't going to be as good as with the ten speed cassette which is true, however, we have had the same offset for the Campy 11 speed hubs for the last two years with absolutely no problems so we are confident in the design. As far as comparing against the other manufacturers, I'll have to call Fairwheel on Monday to question them. The only other manufacture that has a compatible hub in production is DT with an 3.5mm vs our 3.3mm as reported by them. I'm not sure how they can compare the production hubs specifications against the other manufactures 11 speed hubs that have not been introduced or manufactured as if yet. It seems only fair that comparisons would be finished product to finished product. Like I said, I'll give them a call when I'm back in the office."

and

"I don't think I got back to you after receiving your follow up e-mail. Thank you for being such a supporter of our products. I’m delighted that you have been using our hubs in your wheels. Rich is a good guy and puts a lot of time and effort into his wheel builds.

A quick comment about the Campy 11 speed, while it is true that the largest cog cantilevers over the shell a bit, the offset still needed to be different for Campy vs Shimano (10 speed) for clearance reasons. This Campy configuration was even needed for our H2 model previous to the H3 so this same bracing angle has been in production for many years and we have never had one problem. We are confident in the integrity of the hub and wheel if properly laced."

_________________________________

Like I said, I am impressed with White Industries customer service and have used their hubs without any problems. I also like that she knew of Richard of Prowheelbuilder.com.

Well, all three builders sell more than one hub (CK45, WI T-11, and DT240, with only FWB having the ORC-UL now), so figure that asking all three might be able to get a combined, unbiased opinion. I do have a good history with Richard so I would tend to give him more credit - and he does probably build at least 1000 wheel sets a year.

I was originally pretty much set on choosing the CK45 hub for my 11-speed bike until the last email from Richard.

So, now all four wheel sets are with White Industries hubs and my next pair will also be WI as well. But, those CK hubs do look sexy...

Mark


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## Mike T.

Lookbiker said:


> Hi all,
> Getting a custom wheelset and looking at getting either White Industries T11 or CK R45 hubs (Campy). Both are very good and my logical side says WH but I've always liked CK red hubs. Thoughts? The front will be radially laced if that makes a difference.
> Thanks


Both are great hubs of course. Do you do all your own maintenance? If so, the CK hub needs a $180 special tool -
Chris King R45 Hub Service Tool Kit: Tools • AVT - Aspire VeloTech - Chris King World's Largest Dealer

- the WI doesn't.

The WI has a nice titanium cassette carrier; the CK has an aluminum one. I have a CK hub that never suffered because of that fact though.

My personal faves right now are DuraAce - Ti cassette carrier, no special tools needed. I don't think they come any less than 24/28 though. Ever considered those?


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## froze

I agree with the WI hub stance, they are very good hubs, no special tool is needed and their less money then the CK's yet will last longer with less drag. Speaking of drag, I found a video a while back of a guy showing off his new CK hubs and cranked the crank arm fast while the bike was in a repair stand, the CK hubs made a lot of noise but slowed down what I thought was very fast.


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## dcgriz

Lookbiker said:


> Hi all,
> Getting a custom wheelset and looking at getting either White Industries T11 or CK R45 hubs (Campy). Both are very good and my logical side says WH but I've always liked CK red hubs. Thoughts? The front will be radially laced if that makes a difference.
> 
> Thanks


If you are not looking for the laterally stiffest wheel you may want to wait a couple of months and get the new T-11s. The newly revised geometry will built closer to the previous S10 hubs which is just great for an 11 speed hub. This would make the revised T-11 a more all-around hub than the current version (Tnds=65 kgf, Tds=125 kgf, bracing angle 7-7.2 deg,) or the R45 for that matter. Less stifness but quite a bit more tension on the NDS. It appears that emphasis will be more on durability rather than stiffness where it now is with the current version. 

The current T-11s will built to a stiffer wheel (higher bracing angle) but at the expense of a few kgf at the nds (Tnds will be around 52-54kgf when Tds=125kgf) which may affect the wheel durability due to the potential of loosening spokes. The R45 will built to around Tnds=60 kgf @ Tds=125kgf, 7.3 deg ba; another all around choice

Now on the other hand, if red is what it needs to be , then you know the answer to that.


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## mikerp

CK has a great color line, seems it matters to you. It is a selling a point for me as well.

CK does have a decent warranty (chances are you will never have to use it).

If you plan on servicing them yourself it will cost you if you only have one set of hubs and money is an issue. As with anything in regards to tools it pays off to have multiple hubs.

I don't think you can go wrong with either set.


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## Zen Cyclery

I'd go for the T11s over the Kings. Both are great hubsets but when considering the price the Whites are a way better bang for your buck option. The only real advantage of the Kings is the color selection and bling factor.


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## Peanya

If I was to do it again, I'd pass on the CK hubs. The special tool for maintenance is way overpriced. I'd go with the DT 240's first. I don't have experience with the WI, so can't comment there.


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## Mike T.

Peanya said:


> If I was to do it again, I'd pass on the CK hubs. The special tool for maintenance is way overpriced. I'd go with the DT 240's first. I don't have experience with the WI, so can't comment there.


DT 240 hubs - also need special tools to service them.


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## froze

There is another hub manufacture out there that the road version is cheaper then the WI hub that is rarely seen or mentioned here in America and that's the Royce hub made in the UK, their very quiet and don't need any special tools and are very well made. Any thoughts on those hubs?


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## rruff

MarkThailand said:


> I wrote this in another forum and have copied what I wrote there....Mark


Good info there, Mark!

I wrote the part in the FWB review about the effect of flange spacing and bracing angle and it isn't controversial stuff... it's been verified with testing also. 

As the drive side spacing gets squeezed out by wider cassettes, it becomes even more critical to use every last tenth of a mm on that side. Near the dropout you need to make sure the lockring and chain don't hit the frame, and on the other side you need to make sure the derailleur doesn't hit the spokes. This going to vary a bit depending on your frame and parts, so there is some judgement involved. Note that it is pretty critical to have your derailleur aligned also, but that is good for shifting in any case. 

It looks like 18.0 mm DS spacing is about the max for S11 without running into problems. You give up a lot of lateral stiffness and/or load capacity if you only use 16mm. You can compensate for that by using more spokes or a stiffer and heavier rim... but it isn't ideal. 

Yep, 16mm just adds an extra 1mm on each side of the cassette... but we are at the point with wide cassettes on 130mm spacing where we can't just toss those away...


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## hamsey

dcgriz said:


> If you are not looking for the laterally stiffest wheel you may want to wait a couple of months and get the new T-11s. The newly revised geometry will built closer to the previous S10 hubs which is just great for an 11 speed hub. This would make the revised T-11 a more all-around hub than the current version (Tnds=65 kgf, Tds=125 kgf, bracing angle 7-7.2 deg,) or the R45 for that matter. Less stifness but quite a bit more tension on the NDS. It appears that emphasis will be more on durability rather than stiffness where it now is with the current version.
> 
> The current T-11s will built to a stiffer wheel (higher bracing angle) but at the expense of a few kgf at the nds (Tnds will be around 52-54kgf when Tds=125kgf) which may affect the wheel durability due to the potential of loosening spokes. The R45 will built to around Tnds=60 kgf @ Tds=125kgf, 7.3 deg ba; another all around choice
> 
> Now on the other hand, if red is what it needs to be , then you know the answer to that.


How would one know if they are getting the revised hub or the old hub?


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## jnbrown

I have WI hubs on both my road bike and tandem. I am very happy with them.
as already mentioned very easy to service and very durable and look great.
I did have a H2 rear hub break at the flange and WI replaced for no cost and asked no questions.


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## rruff

First time I've heard of one breaking...


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## jnbrown

rruff said:


> First time I've heard of one breaking...


I thought is was surprising, was riding up a hill.
I had just increased the tension on the spokes because it was reading quite low on my Park TM-1 but maybe the calibration was off. By feel it seemed pretty high afterwards. Still the wheel was built 24 spokes 2X.


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## Zen Cyclery

rruff said:


> First time I've heard of one breaking...


Same here. We've sold hundreds of the T11s and H2/H3s, and we haven't had any issues.


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## mikerp

I'm going to guess it was the road bike with 24 2X, not the tandem.


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## jnbrown

Yes road bike. Tandem is 32 spokes 3X.
The only problem I had with the tandem is I built the wheels with CX Rays and broke a lot of spokes. had to rebuild the rear wheel with DT Comps and no problem since.
I think the tandem puts a different kind of load on the wheel that CX Rays just can't handle.


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## mikerp

jnbrown said:


> The only problem I had with the tandem is I built the wheels with CX Rays and broke a lot of spokes. had to rebuild the rear wheel with DT Comps and no problem since.
> I think the tandem puts a different kind of load on the wheel that CX Rays just can't handle.


Interesting, with the claimed fatigue resistance I would not have expected that.
Where were they breaking?


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## jnbrown

mikerp said:


> Interesting, with the claimed fatigue resistance I would not have expected that.
> Where were they breaking?


They broke in different places, near the nipple, at the bend and at the cross.
One thing I have noticed is that although CX Rays are described as oval in shape I find them to be more rectangular and the edges can be be quite sharp. At the spoke crossing the spokes would cut into each other and I think explains the breaking there. I am not sure of this but I think a rear wheel on a tandem may put more lateral loading on the spokes. I have not had a single CX Ray fail on my road bike.


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## Lelandjt

Mike T. said:


> DT 240 hubs - also need special tools to service them.


I serviced one today with channel locks, a razor blade, a rag, oil, and grease. The channel locks are to pull the end caps off and the razor blade is to pop the bearing seals off. I've been under the impression for years that DT 240s are the best hubs available and can't imagine why I'd get anything else.


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## Mike T.

Lelandjt said:


> I serviced one today with channel locks, a razor blade, a rag, oil, and grease. The channel locks are to pull the end caps off and the razor blade is to pop the bearing seals off. I've been under the impression for years that DT 240s are the best hubs available and can't imagine why I'd get anything else.


I guess it depends on our definition of "service". Re-greasing the ratchety parts, for me, was a total "no tool" operation. The cassette would just pull off and bring the drive shell with it. But to get at the hub's internal bearing, the one behind the ratchet ring, you need a ring drive removal tool. And they aren't cheap. There is also a driver set for removing & replacing the bearings but I don't doubt that this kit could be substituted using normal shop tools.


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## Lelandjt

You're talking about removing bearings which with any hub requires bearing pullers. I'm talking about cleaning and regreasing every moving part and bearing in the hub. That's been enough service to keep my 240s rolling nicely.


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## Mike T.

Lelandjt said:


> You're talking about removing bearings which with any hub requires bearing pullers.


Pullers? News to me. I've been tapping them out for decades - or as long as cartridge bearings have been with us anyway.


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## SauronHimself

My Rail 52s have T11s, and they seem very nice. The spin well, look good, and are fairly quiet.


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## macming

I don't believe this $180 tool is required to do routine maintenance on CK hubs. You only need it to replace bearings, which is a major overhaul. 




Mike T. said:


> Both are great hubs of course. Do you do all your own maintenance? If so, the CK hub needs a $180 special tool -
> Chris King R45 Hub Service Tool Kit: Tools • AVT - Aspire VeloTech - Chris King World's Largest Dealer
> 
> - the WI doesn't.
> 
> The WI has a nice titanium cassette carrier; the CK has an aluminum one. I have a CK hub that never suffered because of that fact though.
> 
> My personal faves right now are DuraAce - Ti cassette carrier, no special tools needed. I don't think they come any less than 24/28 though. Ever considered those?


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## dcgriz

macming said:


> I don't believe this $180 tool is required to do routine maintenance on CK hubs. You only need it to replace bearings, which is a major overhaul.


that's correct.


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## rruff

macming said:


> I don't believe this $180 tool is required to do routine maintenance on CK hubs. You only need it to replace bearings, which is a major overhaul.


That's the point. Replacing bearings in WI hubs doesn't take any special tools and isn't a big deal. Many years ago (before I got proper bearing tools) I even did it with a screw driver, a hammer, a QR, and a socket set.


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## kansukee

Another vote for the T11 hubs. I have them in silver and to me, they have that perfect classic look, are very quiet (Campy) and seem to roll forever. The only other hubs I would consider at this point are the Royce someone mentioned before.


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## Jay Strongbow

kansukee said:


> Another vote for the T11 hubs. I have them in silver and to me, they have that perfect classic look, are very quiet (Campy) and seem to roll forever. The only other hubs I would consider at this point are the Royce someone mentioned before.


I have a Royce rear hub and it's been amazing. I also have a WI.

I think 99% of Americans would be better off going with WI.
Royce rear weighs a ton and the front isn't recommended for radial. I don't care about either but a lot of people do. WI customer services is great. Royce's may be also but it'll still be a pain in the arse to deal with a one man shop in England from the US should you ever need customer service.

Royce rear has been a great set it and forget it hub though. Pawls get REALLY loud when they are thirsty for grease but as long as you own the insertion system thing (fairly cheap to buy) you can grease them without taking the hub apart at all and that's pretty nifty.


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