# Felt Internal Cable Rattle - Solutions?



## richsto (May 4, 2007)

I have a 2007 F55 with a very annoying rattle/pinging noise on rough roads from the internal cable hitting the top tube. The cable guides are tight and properly in place, it sounds like the cable is just hitting the inside of the top tube when I hit a rough section of pavement. We had an F65 with the same cable routing and no problem. 

Is there some known solution to this problem? I thought that the cable housing might be able to be dissasembled and something (a soft sheath?) put around the outside of the cable where it runs through the top tube. Not sure if this would work and have no idea what might fit nicely around the cable and through the hole. Any other ideas?

It's an extremely aggravating problem :mad2: There must be a solution....anyone?

Thanks,

Rich


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## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

You could use a few rubber grommets that are normally used to protect external routed cables from slapping tubes and scratching paint. You might also want to check that there's no slack in the cables.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

I have such a rattle on my SU600 MTB/hybrid, I thought it was the cables hitting the headtube so got some patches and .... nop that wasn't it, been busy with building a new rig so didn't investigate any further till i get that project done and over with. The sound seems to be coming from the headtube so maybe something in there that needs to be inspected.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Worked for me once.*

Pull the seat post and see if there's a coin-sized or larger hole at the seat-tube-top tube junction. If there is, work a tightly wadded-up block of foam rubber into the top tube with some coat hanger wire. Cut the foam block as large as possible.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

Use a nonwoven wadding (same stuff that is used in seats and cheap comforters) instead of foam as foam will turn into powder sooner or later (depending on quality).

BTW Great idea WIM


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Hey, I _was_ thinking quality—what I had in mind was Tempur-Pedic®, the famous "Swedish Mattress™" material, with the original patented viscoelastic, pressure-relieving, memory foam endorsed by over 25,000 doctors worldwide, and recognized by NASA and the Space Foundation.

Just kidding—good point about cheap foam turning to dust.


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## richsto (May 4, 2007)

Great suggestions, thanks. I'll let my dealer try and solve this but I'll likely have to do something like you've described (assuming I can get to the top tube from the seat tube. I do have one question:

Will the foam obstruct operation of the brake cable if I jam it in there? Should it ideally go between the cable and bottom/side of the tube or will just stuffing it in there suffice?

IWhat's frustrating is that I shouldn't have to do any of this - it's a brand new frame. Keep the suggestions coming!

Thanks,

Rich


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Styrofoam. That would replace the rattle with a squeak. BTW, I think most foam rubber is broken down by UV radiation. Not too much of that penetrating the top tube. But maybe it's ozone. Plenty of that around. I'd worry that batting instead of foam would compress over time and the rattle would return. This is such a dilema. We really need NASA and the Space Foundation to work on this problem and come up with a solution. Wait, wait, not NASA, that would be a mistake. They can't solve their own Shuttle foam problem. How could we expect them to solve something as complicated as this?


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

If you really love your bike you could try natural latex - probably make it a little kinky too!


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

richsto said:


> I have a 2007 F55 with a very annoying rattle/pinging noise on rough roads from the internal cable hitting the top tube. The cable guides are tight and properly in place, it sounds like the cable is just hitting the inside of the top tube when I hit a rough section of pavement. We had an F65 with the same cable routing and no problem.
> 
> Is there some known solution to this problem? I thought that the cable housing might be able to be dissasembled and something (a soft sheath?) put around the outside of the cable where it runs through the top tube. Not sure if this would work and have no idea what might fit nicely around the cable and through the hole. Any other ideas?
> 
> ...


I have the same problem with my Felt. I pulled the seat post and the hole to the top tube is only about 1/4 inch. I figure I could pull the cable housing and wrap it in something soft but thin enough to fit through the cable openings in the top tube. My only question now is what to use? Something that won't break down and won't interfere with future cable removal.


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

*Aha!*



denmikseb said:


> I have the same problem with my Felt. I pulled the seat post and the hole to the top tube is only about 1/4 inch. I figure I could pull the cable housing and wrap it in something soft but thin enough to fit through the cable openings in the top tube. My only question now is what to use? Something that won't break down and won't interfere with future cable removal.


I think I've got it. Self sticking tube patches should stick to the housing and itself. I am going to pull the cable housing and give it a try.


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## richsto (May 4, 2007)

Please, please let me know how this works out. I'd be worried about the patch loosening up and then not coming back through the housing and becoming a permanent resident in the top tube. Theres gotta be something soft and durable to wrap around or thread the cable through and still fit through the opening. Do the cable guides come out (and go back in) easily? Any tips?

Thanks,

Rich


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

richsto said:


> Please, please let me know how this works out. I'd be worried about the patch loosening up and then not coming back through the housing and becoming a permanent resident in the top tube. Theres gotta be something soft and durable to wrap around or thread the cable through and still fit through the opening. Do the cable guides come out (and go back in) easily? Any tips?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich


OK, I think it will work. My front plastic guide kept coming out so it is super glued, the rear one snaps out easily and back in ok. I only had one glueless patch left so I tested it on the cable housing, I almost did not get it back off. I know it will NOT come loose! When I get more patches here's what I will do. Unwrap my right bar tape and disconnect the brake cable from the brifter. Pull the cable housing out through the rear hole, making sure I don't pull it all the way into the front guide. Estimate where the center of the housing is and wrap a bunch of patches around a 3 or 4 inch section. Make sure the wrapping is in front of the rear plastic guide, the guides hole is too small for the patches to fit through. The cable hole in the top tube is large enough to get a fairly thick layer of patches through. Then put it all back together. If this doesn't completely stop the ringing it should certainly reduce it as the patches are soft rubber. It will take a lot of patches, they are so thin.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

There is a rubber grummet used on MTBs with hydraulic brakes that fits into the cable guides on the top tube so as to hold the cable in the cable guides - it might do the trick.


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

toonraid said:


> There is a rubber grummet used on MTBs with hydraulic brakes that fits into the cable guides on the top tube so as to hold the cable in the cable guides - it might do the trick.


I will look into that, it should work better than the glueless patches. If the grommets will stay in place on the cable housing, and fit through the top tube hole. That should also be cheaper than buying a bunch of patches


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## richsto (May 4, 2007)

Thanks, keep me posted!

Rich


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## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

Perhaps I used the wrong name when I suggested using "grommets" in post # 2. Perhaps rubber o-rings is a better name. You know the rubber grommets or o-rings that are slid over external cables that run along the top or down tubes? They're installed to get rid of cable slap noise and to reduce the risk of the cable scratching the paint. Use 2 or 3 of these same o-rings on the cable where it passes through the frame. It won't stop the cable from shaking around and bouncing off the inside of the tube when you go over bumps, but it should get rid of the annoying noise just as well as they do for externally routed cables.


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

RHankey said:


> Perhaps I used the wrong name when I suggested using "grommets" in post # 2. Perhaps rubber o-rings is a better name. You know the rubber grommets or o-rings that are slid over external cables that run along the top or down tubes? They're installed to get rid of cable slap noise and to reduce the risk of the cable scratching the paint. Use 2 or 3 of these same o-rings on the cable where it passes through the frame. It won't stop the cable from shaking around and bouncing off the inside of the tube when you go over bumps, but it should get rid of the annoying noise just as well as they do for externally routed cables.


Those "donuts" fit over bare cable, we need something to fit over the cable housing.


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## richsto (May 4, 2007)

If I understand correctly the o-ring should go on the bare cable inside the top tube. The housing connects to the plastic fittings which fit into the top tube - the cable would have to come out of the housing and then you would slide the o-rings onto the cable so they would line up inside the top tube then the housing and fitting would go back together.

I still don't know how it all comes apart and goes back together since I haven't tried it and I'm really not a "wrencher". If someone tries this and can give a step by step that would be helpful.

Rich


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Careful reading.*



> _If I understand correctly the o-ring should go on the bare cable inside the top tube_


As denmikseb explained in post #18, there is no bare cable inside the top tube. The *cable housing *with the bare cable inside of it runs through the top tube. The *outside of the cable housing*—not the bare cable—rattles against the inside of the top tube. It's a very simple arrangement.


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## Chris Oz (Oct 8, 2005)

I have the same problem. I have found that if I touch the front plastic entry cover the noise goes away. I have been planning to put small amount of silicon sealant in around the whole to tighten up the fit. In my case it appears that the cover doesn't fit very well.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

Guys, does the cable casing actually touch the top tube - I mean the is an entry (plastic guide) and there is an exit (plastic guide) and I think there must be a guide or routing between the two as the cable casing is threaded through to the exit - if there was nothing there then the cable casing wouldn't find its way out! If thats the case then putting sponge or whatever is not going to fix the problem - unless whatever guiding is in there has come loose somehow and if thats the case then it must be loose at one of the connection points i.e. inlet or exit. If so then Chris OZ's solution should fix the problem. I would be interested to know how the cable casing is threaded throught the top tube (I am just guessing) if anyone has any ideas.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*No guide in a Felt.*



toonraid said:


> Guys, does the cable casing actually touch the top tube - I mean the is an entry (plastic guide) and there is an exit (plastic guide) and I think there must be a guide or routing between the two as the cable casing is threaded through to the exit - if there was nothing there then the cable casing wouldn't find its way out! If thats the case then putting sponge or whatever is not going to fix the problem - unless whatever guiding is in there has come loose somehow and if thats the case then it must be loose at one of the connection points i.e. inlet or exit. If so then Chris OZ's solution should fix the problem. I would be interested to know how the cable casing is threaded throught the top tube (I am just guessing) if anyone has any ideas.


There's no guide or routing between the entry and the exit points. The rear brake cable housing just lays inside the top tube. There's no telling if or exactly where it touches the inside of the top tube. You're absolutely right about the "casing not finding its way out" during installation. That's why you never remove housing and cable together come time to replace or lube the rear brake cable.

To replace the rear brake cable and housing, you first remove the old housing by pulling it off the old cable. _You leave the old, bare cable on the bike to serve as a guide for the new housing_. Once you've pushed the new housing over the old cable, you pull the old cable out. Then you push the new cable into the new housing.

If there's plenty of rear brake cable, you can sometimes stop a rattle by pushing more of it into the top tube. Doing that will create some S-bends, which push harder against the inside of the top tube. If you only have the minimum length of rear brake cable (pulls tight around the headtube when you turn the handlebar, shallow arc instead of question-mark shape over the seat tube), you might want to cut it longer if or when you replace it and stuff the excess into the top tube to create those S-bends.


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## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

Ok, I understand now (I don't have a Felt, but have several older Kestrel's with internally routed cabling - with and without housing). The o-ring solution won't work for cable housing slapping around.

On at least one frame I've had in the past with internally routed cable housing, I was able to find or fabricate cable stops to fit over the entry/exit holes in the frame so that I could pass only the cable (without housing) through the frame (eliminating cable slap and a little weight). Assuming you can find or fabricate suitable cable stops, you'd also need to be ensure the frame can take the stress when you're reefing on the rear brake.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

*Wim*



wim said:


> There's no guide or routing between the entry and the exit points. The rear brake cable housing just lays inside the top tube. There's no telling if or exactly where it touches the inside of the top tube. You're absolutely right about the "casing not finding its way out" during installation. That's why you never remove housing and cable together come time to replace or lube the rear brake cable.


I have built up 2 new look frames over the past 10 days and I am sure both of them has some sort of routing in the top tube as the cableset went in one end and came out the other without any force or direction!


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

richsto said:


> If I understand correctly the o-ring should go on the bare cable inside the top tube. The housing connects to the plastic fittings which fit into the top tube - the cable would have to come out of the housing and then you would slide the o-rings onto the cable so they would line up inside the top tube then the housing and fitting would go back together.
> 
> I still don't know how it all comes apart and goes back together since I haven't tried it and I'm really not a "wrencher". If someone tries this and can give a step by step that would be helpful.
> 
> Rich


That is incorrect. The plastic fittings are just guides that guide the cable HOUSING through the top tube. The cable housing is one continiuos piece from lever to brake.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*$$$$$*



toonraid said:


> I have built up 2 new look frames over the past 10 days and I am sure both of them has some sort of routing in the top tube as the cableset went in one end and came out the other without any force or direction!


Well, you found one of the differences between a $$ Felt frame and a $$$$$ Look frame. Nothing has changed in that regard. Even back in the day when steel was king, only the high-end frames with internal cable routing had guide tubes. As an unintended consequence, sometimes these tubes held water.


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## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

"I would be interested to know how the cable casing is threaded throught the top tube (I am just guessing) if anyone has any ideas"

For frames with no internal cable guides, the initial cable is usually threaded through by coaxing a bent coat hanger through first. For rear brake cables routed through the top tube, it only takes a few moments of fishing to find the exit hole. Once the coat hanger is threaded, you have numerous options to get the desired cables/housing threaded.

Internally routed shifter cables can be a little more time consuming if they lack any internal guides.


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## richsto (May 4, 2007)

This is a very helpful (if not disheartening) discussion. It sounds like the housing doesn't leave much room for o-rings or other types of "dampening" material to fit through the top tube opening on a Felt frame. Can anyone confirm this? There has to be some solution as our 2006 F65 had no problems with this whatsoever. What do they do at the factory to fix this or ensure it doesn't occur?

Rich


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

richsto said:


> This is a very helpful (if not disheartening) discussion. It sounds like the housing doesn't leave much room for o-rings or other types of "dampening" material to fit through the top tube opening on a Felt frame. Can anyone confirm this? There has to be some solution as our 2006 F65 had no problems with this whatsoever. What do they do at the factory to fix this or ensure it doesn't occur?
> 
> Rich


I'm working on it. They don't do anything at the factory for this, this is a fairly common problem for bikes with internally routed cables. My 2005 F60 is tink-tinking every time I hit a rough spot.


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

*My Cable Is Silent!*



denmikseb said:


> I'm working on it. They don't do anything at the factory for this, this is a fairly common problem for bikes with internally routed cables. My 2005 F60 is tink-tinking every time I hit a rough spot.


I went to several LBS's looking for the grommets that go on hydraulic brake lines, they didn't know what I was talking about. BUT, I noticed the short "corrigated" rubber covers that go on MTB brake cables between the brake arms. They looked like they would work, but nobody had them until the 4th LBS. He gave me 3 used ones and a furill (?) at no charge. One was sort of hard, so I used the 2 softest, and cut each in half. I pulled the cable housing (a story in itself), and spaced the 4 pieces about 1 1/2 inches apart. They fit, but are loose enough that they will not stay in place long, so I cut 4 glueless patches in half and wrapped the ends of each piece and the cable housing to hold them in place. Then I put it back together and went for a ride. Silence. It took me a couple hours, but I took my time, since I really didn't know what I was doing! I took all the hardware off the brake end of the cable/housing, removed the right bar tape, and the housing still didn't come out of the brifter. I removed the brifter and the housing was easily pulled out. The only tools I needed were metric allen keys and a lot of patience. The "spacers" just fit into the top tube opening with the plastic guide removed. Total cost: About $3 for glueless patches, plus gas. It was a bit of a pain to do, but I now enjoy a silent ride. ADDED WARNING: Do not allow the cable to pull completely out of the housing, it is nearly impossible to put it back in.


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

There is an easier way to do this, but it would be slightly visible. Put plastic wire ties on the cable housing at the cable entry/exit. Pull the cable tight enough to take out the slack in the top tube, and may need to add a drop of superglue at the ties (maybe not if the ties were tight enough). I wouldn't pull the cable too tight, it might pop the plastic guides out. If I had to do it all again I would try this first.


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## richsto (May 4, 2007)

denmikseb,

Interesting, I've pm'd you with some questions. I sure wish there was enough cable to try and push more into the top tube - I'd like to try that before some of these other measures. Thanks for posting your experiences.

If anyone else has suggestions or experience with this, please post it!

Thanks,

Rich


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## litespeedf1 (Jan 23, 2007)

Perhaps another solution would be to remove one of the plastic guides while leaving the cable housing in place. This would leave a small gap in the top tube around the cable housing, hopefully large enough to fit the "straw" spray nozzle for a can of expandable foam. Inject the foam into the top tube for 1/2 to 1 second, remove the "straw" and replace the plastic guide, to ensure that everything is in proper position before the foam sets up.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Jewelry.*

Here's another solution from way-back-when: get three Campagnolo cable clips off of eBay and move the cable to the outside. Of course, it's not aerodynamically perfect, so your 5-second advantage in a 25-mile time trial would be down the drain  I know, I know: the Felt top tube ain't round, slender steel. But I just had to post this photo.


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## richsto (May 4, 2007)

I don't think the clips would "fly" in my situation but a good option for someone else perhaps. 

I like the idea of using some of the spray on rubber products that are available but I can't find a single one with a tube applicator.  

Once could also buy neoprene tubing (1/4" od) - at least I've seen it on the web. However, if you ever have to replace your cable the tubing would most definetely be difficult to remove and would likely become a permanent resident inside the top tube.

Rich


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

richsto said:


> I don't think the clips would "fly" in my situation but a good option for someone else perhaps.
> 
> I like the idea of using some of the spray on rubber products that are available but I can't find a single one with a tube applicator.
> 
> ...


You probably wouldn't be able to pull out the cable or install a new one when they need replacement if spray foam or other material is put in the top tube. I really think the wire ties (zip ties) would work. I wish I had thought of it before I went to all the trouble of pulling the housing.


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## bopApocalypse (Aug 30, 2006)

denmikseb said:


> You probably wouldn't be able to pull out the cable or install a new one when they need replacement if spray foam or other material is put in the top tube. I really think the wire ties (zip ties) would work. I wish I had thought of it before I went to all the trouble of pulling the housing.


Here's a thought... (don't know if it would work, don't have a bike to try it on, etc. etc.)

Thread your cable housing in there, with a thin sheet of something wrapped around it in the internally routed section. Maybe plastic sheeting, maybe plain old paper. Just wrapped around the housing. Then, spray some foam adhesive type stuff inside the top tube. Trim the sheet around the housing, put the plastic endcaps back in, and voile - instant cable guide/rattle prevention, right?


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

I think we (myself included) have been making this harder than it has to be. Just put a thin, black zip tie tightly on the cable housing at the front plastic opening, secure with a drop of superglue, if needed. Then do the same at the rear opening, just pull the slack out of the cable housing in the top tube before tightening the zip tie. If the locking parts of the ties are under the top tube, this solution will be virtually unnoticeable. The ties can be cut to remove if needed. Simple, fast, fairly elegant. Too obvious to think of initially. Silicone (suggested by richsto) would be better than superglue.


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## richsto (May 4, 2007)

LBS used cable ties when I took it in - seems to have solved the problem at least for now.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Rich


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