# 22 Weeks out from Mountains in Italy



## Rackerman (Jan 9, 2014)

My Brother and I will be embarking on a bike tour (Thomson Tours) through the Dolomite mountains in Italy. The Stelvio.... Gavia.... Mortirolo.... Pordoi.... Fedaia.... Sella.... Duran.... Giau.... Valparola....and more will be ridden over 7 days with 650km of riding and 50,000 feet of climbing.

I'm looking for your opinions on something that I've been working on that basically shows a gradual weekly increase in weekly training load leading up to the trip (Sept 6). Week day rides (Shorter rides), will be intervals based on Power/cadence and simulated climbing along with hill repeats. Longer rides are just straight endurance efforts.

I'd love your opinions on this, what looks good, what makes sense, where I should structure more rest, or increas/decrease the training. Whatever your thoughts, they would be appreciated so I can finalize a structured training plan that I can stick to. 

Just some basics, I structured the ride requirements on the high side at 420KM although the trip is 650km but that includes descending. I'm also actively training right now comfortably at 200km a week with FTP of 230 (Tested last fall) and rising. Normalized power on recent rides has been coming in 240 to 265. I am 190lbs and dropping and hope to be 175lbs for the trip if not slightly lighter. 44 Years old, like planes, long walks on the beach, yada yada yada!

See attached file... If you want to see the XL version, please PM me and I'll email you. I could not upload it.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Mmm, Stelvio...

What's simulated climbing? Do you live somewhere with no climbs?

If you have a PM you need to test more freqently.... last fall's number is unlikely to be correct now.

I would not attempt seven days a week in training. If you can ride three or four days in a row you can ride seven assuming you don't stress yourself too hard. Speaking of which, your riding on the vacation won't have a lot of intensity, because if you hammer a big climb all out it will affect your riding enjoyment for a few days afterwards. So unless you like intervals, I'd skip them entirely, or focus on longer ones like 20min+. SST is a good type of interval for training for long rides with lots of climbing.

Train by time not distance. If you go do some climbs, which I would strongly suggest, you'll put in a lot more time to get a certain distance.. Even better if you have a PM use TSS or BikeScore to track your training load.

Don't plan a neat mathematical progression. To improve you need stress and recovery. That means you need to do some weeks of increasing load, then an easy week (which may not be an entire week). Having easy weeks also allows you to do more stressful rides during the hard weeks.

If you have climbs, go ride them a lot.


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## Rackerman (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks for the detailed reply and thoughts Ericm979. I do ride with a PM. I'm addicted to it frankly.

I live in an area without any great climbs. Lots of short steep ones but rarely anything more than a couple km max and longer than these, we need to drive to find. Simulated climbing is riding at a hard cadence in the flats and recreating cadence/HR and the power that I was doing on longer climbs in a cycling camp in the Carolinas... Might work but who knows?

Your thoughts on the 7 days in a row is appreciated as well. That one made me a bit nervous as to whether I could commit that much time. And yes, these will be survival rides with the odd hard pushes vs hammering to the top of every one of them for KOM points. My intervals are all longer intervals based on maintaining Z4/Z5 power.

I like the idea of training time rather than distance and will try to figure out how to structure this in. It makes sense absolutely as seat time is all relative to the elevations on the climb. I'm not familiar with TSS or BikeScore but I use Strava.com which might do the same thing.

Again, thanks for your thoughts and the time that you took to put it together. A few more things to think about.

Regards,
Raye


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## farva (Jun 24, 2005)

Looks just like a trip I took to Northern Italy 2 years ago, 7 days/w over 50K of climbing & a boatload of passes. I'm about the same age as you, but smaller @145lbs & 5'7. I just upped my saddle time to 15-20 hrs a week starting one month prior & had no problems with the daily totals. Yeah my legs hurt but you take breaks, drink cappuccinos etc. My post trip regrets - racing buddies & strangers for the top; You'll miss the truly breathtaking scenery drooling on your top tube. Ride at a comfortable pace, look around, take pics, & enjoy. Save duking it out for rides on home your home turf. 

P.S. the pass roads are narrow & the drivers aggressive, especially audi & bmw guys for some reason. They just seem to have zero patience & will make insane passes. There are also a lot of fast moving motorcycles. Keep your head on a swivel. Have fun

Are you taking your pro tour illegal 13lb TCR? You might be disappointed with tour rental bikes by comparison


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Rackerman said:


> My Brother and I will be embarking on a bike tour (Thomson Tours) through the Dolomite mountains in Italy. The Stelvio.... Gavia.... Mortirolo.... Pordoi.... Fedaia.... Sella.... Duran.... Giau.... Valparola....and more will be ridden over 7 days with 650km of riding and 50,000 feet of climbing.
> 
> I'm looking for your opinions on something that I've been working on that basically shows a gradual weekly increase in weekly training load leading up to the trip (Sept 6). Week day rides (Shorter rides), will be intervals based on Power/cadence and simulated climbing along with hill repeats. Longer rides are just straight endurance efforts.
> 
> ...


2 suggestions:
If you have the time, add a fifth ride a week a lot sooner, even if it's short and easy. The added frequency will help your fitness a lot. 

In leau of sustained climbing, do long L2/l3 rides over lots of little hills (like the shore of a river or other body of water). Instead of attacking each climb, ride steadily up and down each hill and keep the effort steady. This is an old flatlander trick to teach your legs how to take the power you can sustain on the flats and put it down going uphill.


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## Rackerman (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi Farva and thanks for your experience in Italy. That definitely helps. I'm a BMW driver so I know just how those guys are! Audi drivers are just mad that they don't have BMW's so they drive aggressive. I truly do look forward to the views and will save hard KOM's until the end of the ride! I'll be taking the "Legal" Rabobank. It's just far stiffer and transfers energies really well to the back wheel. It will be heavier too as I'll be building a new wheel set with my Power Tap in it for the ride.

Kbiker3111, I'll be hoping to start easy (Recovery) style rides with my wife when the weather gets just a bit warmer here for her. They will be short and will keep the legs moving as she's just learning to ride. I did not add that in to my ride schedule though but I get your point for sure. Thanks for the tip on riding the rollers too. I'll give that a try.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Most people find it difficult to put out consistent power on the downhill side of rolling hills. But if you can do that you'll sort of simulate larger climbs. Also riding at a lower cadence on the flat. But they're just simulations, it's not the real thing. For one you can stop pedalling and coast, which you can't on a climb. And the forces on the legs are different. If you have some larger climbs within a reasonable driving distance I recommend getting out there for some extended climbing. Besides climbing specific training it'll help you practice your pacing. Also the mental aspect of climbing for a hour or two. I find that doing 9000-10000' of climbing in a day is good training for something involving lots of climbing, without being so tiring that I'm useless for a couple days.

You're not going to be doing a lot of Z4/5 on this ride. I'd do more SST (high Z3/low Z4, or 85-90% of FTP) in training. You get much of the benefit of FTP intervals but with less stress. So you can do more. (search for Coggan's writings on Sweet Spot Training). Of course if you have limited time then you have to work with that, and maybe do more intensity in order to get the total workload up.

When I am training for races with multiple 6000' climbs I do a lot of SST intervals, anywhere from 20-65 min depending on the length the climbs I'm using in training.

TSS and BS are ways to calculate your training stress. Slightly different algorithms but they're essentially equivalent. I suggest using Training peaks (pay) or Golden Cheetah (free) to analyze your power data. They do things far beyond what Strava has. If you have unmodified data files in Strava import to the analysis software so you have history. I find the Performance Manager (GC, TP has something similar) to be very useful for figuring out when I need a rest. (disclaimer: I contributed the original PM to GC so of course I like it as it works like I want it to).


Also buy the Coggan and Allen powermeter book.

Be ware that power drops off with altitude. So don't try to use power to pace a climb to altitude using power data from sea level. I sometimes use HR instead, although that has its own problems.


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## letmetodoit (Apr 22, 2014)

I did not add that in to my ride schedule though but I get your point for sure. Thanks for the tip on riding the rollers too. I'll give that a try.


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## Rackerman (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi all, I just finished my trip through the Dolomite mountains. Hard to say the least but I got up all the climbs that I wanted to. I sat out the Mortirola and Gavia as I was just too tired at weeks end and the grades on these two climbs would have killed me. (T-DOL1 Day 7 | Strava Route). I got up the Giau and attacked it hard and it was my favourite climb. The Stelvio was a survival contest at 27km and 8.7% average grade. Passo Duran and a couple other Cat 4/5 climbs were all highlights too. This was a hell of an experience which included tremendous service and support from the tour operator. I would highly recommend them. Now, I'll be posting in this forum again to understand what happened with my HR and Power as the week went on and what I can do to address these issues for my next trip... Can't wait!

Pics are top of Giau, Stelvio and a look over the wall an the Stelvio... we started way down in the final over the drop off. You could only see the "Wall" with 8k to go. Breathtaking!


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Nice.

I really want to ride the Stelvio.


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## Alumini (Jul 14, 2014)

Nooo, you sat out the Gavia but did a couple of cat 4/5 climbs???

Next time (and there must be a next time) please do Gavia and Stelvio from the South (starting in Punto di Legno) on one day (have a nice lunch in Santa Catarina between them) and descent into the Vinschgau region until Goldrain (village) for example. It may not be the ultracoolheroclimbwith48switchbacks, but it's the more beautiful ascent for both passes IMHO. The descent in the afternoon with the sun in your back, the beautiful bicycle road through the apple farms... It's THE King Stage in that region, hands down. Leave out whatever you like, but never, ever Gavia or Stelvio, for god's sake, even if you need half a day off before! :mad2:

Nevertheless, great ride.


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## farva (Jun 24, 2005)

Lighten up route police. It's his vacation. He rode the hills he wanted & rested when he was tired. It sounded like he had a good time overall. That's all that really counts.


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## Bevo (Dec 26, 2012)

Hey I know that guy!!
well he is my brother LOL!

One thing mentioned that is up for debate is the Cat 4-5 climbs, these may not look that steep but the numbers lie. The climb is based on % over a distance, during this span it could go double the % or more! we saw some 10% sections that were actually 5% for 3/4k then 20+ for the last bit into the next section.

This trip was more about endurance and metered effort, we did not know what to expect and I think he did amazing as he is not a climber. Some of these roads are beyond dangerous as one of our riders crashed out with a broken back, riding them exhausted is asking for an accident.

We did learn lots and I think we will be back, this time we will be better prepared!


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

wow ... very nice ride. Looks awesome there.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Excellent!


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