# Road bikes with disc brakes



## AlanE (Jan 22, 2002)

I came upon the website for Volagi bikes (Volagi | The Will To Go) and was intrigued. They don't have any dealers in the northeast, so I was wondering what other brands of road bikes with disc brakes are available..

And of course, I would be interested in other peoples opinions and experience with disc brakes. Other than the novelty of it, are there really any advantages? Disadvantages seem to be difficulty of maintenence and lack of availability of compatible wheelsets. But it looks cool.

And what do you think about those floating seat-stays? Again, somewhat of a novelty, but as they say "if it ain't broke, it will be soon"


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## uphillcrash (Apr 12, 2009)

I have seen CX bikes on the road with disc brakes they say stopping in wet weather is better,as for that seat stay system.... interesting


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Having had mountain bike with disc brakes, I've got to say that I much prefer then over the rubber we are used to. The increased stopping power alone is worth it. Add to that that longer life of pads (I've gone the better part of two seasons -- usually March thru Dec or so -- without having to change the pads).

If the wight can be kept down and the aerodynamics improved, I wouldn't mind having that option for my road bike.


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## j.king (Mar 23, 2005)

The people at Volagi are great and they've come up with a pretty fantastic looking bike in my opinion. I sent them a email a few months ago and they promptly replied to all my questions within a few days.Their idea behind the bike was to build something useful and versatile for people who don't follow pro cycling and just want a great bike. I think there is a market for this type of bike and I'm pretty excited that someone has taken the idea and moved ahead with it.

I would disagree with there being a difficulty of maintenance. With a cable disc brake setup like they are using you wouldn't have to do any more maintenance than what you would do now with a normal road bike caliper brake. One big advantage is you don't have to replace the rims when they wear out. You can simply replace the rotors and run the same wheelset. I would also argue that we could see lighter weight rims as with a disc brake setup the braking track on the rim is no longer needed. You might also have an advantage of better wet weather braking.

Volagi went with a 130mm spaced rear hub which I believe is a mistake. There are plenty of 135mm spaced disc hubs from the mtb. market that would have been usable but very very little 130mm spaced disc hubs available. Which means you are stuck with what they offer.

As far as the floating stays, I'm sure it adds to the comfort of the bike but as far as durability is concerned I have no idea. 

There is going to be a storm of opinions that will say that disc brakes are useless on a road bike and there is also the perennial favorite of mine, "they came up with a solution to a problem that didn't exist." I love it every time I hear that. The cycling market is pretty big and diverse so I think there is room for manufacturers with new ideas to survive with something like Volagi has.

I don't know of any other manufacturers at this time with a disc brake road bike. Kona and Orbea had similar bikes a few years ago and maybe still do but other than a disc brake cyclocross bike I think Volagi is it for now.


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## gbarker (Jun 29, 2008)

Alan-

I can't speak to the bike but disc brakes are huge. I installed a pair of hydraulics on my Mtn bike a couple of years back and the advantages for braking in wet conditions vastly outweighs any other issues. You also eliminate rim scour. In terms of disadvantages, they weigh more and are more complex than side pull brakes. That said, they are not very difficult to maintain or install.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Benefits of disc brakes-wear on the rim sidewalls is eliminated. If you've ever worn through the sidewall and had one crack you'll appreciate this.

Lack of brake pad dust dirtying up your bike, particularly on wet rides. Tires, rims, and whatnot get especially grimy and make for messy flat repair etc.

Less chance of overheating a rim and blowing a tube. Rare, but it happens, particularly with tandems.


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## goat 834 (Jun 28, 2009)

We have two Viscio's at the shop I work at.

Cyclist Connection
200 Win-Cemetery road
Canal Winchester, OH

Supposedly we are the first dealer on the east coast. They are a pretty sweet looking bike. Our first customer however ruined his when he had us put on the Brooks saddle!


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Mountain bikes can take advantage of the increased braking power... road bikes can't. A .5" x 1" contact patch needs very little braking power. I like the idea of eliminating wear on the rims, but don't think it comes close to the downside of disc brakes, e.g. weight, complexity (relatively speaking).


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## heybrady (Jul 3, 2011)

I just moved to a road bike from a mtb with mechanical disks, and the braking power (or lack thereof) is the only negative I've experienced so far. Compared to disks, it feels like the brakes on my road bike are wet. Stopping power is nowhere near the same.

Now that being said, how often does a roadie need to brake quickly, as with a mtb?


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## eschummer (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm new to road biking but currently have a hybrid (mad by Specialized) that has disk brakes. One disadvantage that I haven't heard anyone mention is that the brakes tend to squeal after a while during "gentle" application. I found that on the road I use the brakes much less frequently and less forcefully. I just had them serviced at my LBS, but the squeal continues..

I rode a friend's Roubaix for about a week (normal brakes of course) and the silence was so refreshing! Didn't notice a great deal of difference in stopping power. On the road there simply aren't the same kind of situations you run into on a MTB.

Great forum, but the way! I'm glad I found you guys..

Now I can't wait for my new Infinito to arrive....


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Colnago just announced they have a road disc bike on the way. 
Disc brakes are allowed in cyclo-cross training and competition | Colnago


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

Can't race with it. I know that's not the target audience but it eliminates the option.


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## Ledipus (Apr 17, 2007)

I have had this "discussion" several times with members over on MTBR so I won't go into details here, but disc brakes do not provide more stopping power. It is the exact opposite, such a small braking surface, and being that far away from the point of contact means less stopping power. If you don't believe me then why do downhill bikes and high performance sports cars need significantly larger rotors with the braking surface closer to the rim? This would only be enhanced on the larger 700c wheels. So less stopping power, and significantly higher speeds is not a good match.

Quality disc brakes are superior for true mountain bikes, but let's not forget that the conditions of a road and MTB bike are just a little bit different.

I have seen disc brakes on many high mileage touring bikes. And for the reasons mentioned above this is very appropriate. The pads last longer, don't over heat, they don't damage the rim. If the rim comes out of true you can still ride, etc. But on an everyday road bike I don't feel they make sense. They would only add weight, and IMO decrease opinion.


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## ClancyO (Mar 20, 2011)

The main thing holding back disc's on road bikes is the UCI and other sanctioning bodies. They aren't legal in road races, and have only just become legal in cross. 

I think they makes sense on road bikes for all the reasons they make sense on mtn bikes - and more... As carbon rims become common on 'regular' road bikes, they can eliminate all the problems associated with braking on carbon.

I have cable discs on my Mtn bike and love them and suspect that my next road bike (5 years hence since the one in my garage is only 10 days old) will have disc brakes. It's just a matter of time...


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

I think you are stuck with their wheels due to unique axle spacing


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

I've been riding a Trek Portland as my primary commuter for several years. Three of my several requirements for a new commuter were 

road bike, 
drop bars with integrated levers, and 
disc brakes.
My 2006 Portland met those requirements and more.

As a four-seasons, all-conditions commuter, two of the advantages of disc brakes were important to me:

no wear on the rims--I used to go through a set of rims every winter, and
consistency of braking performance in the wet and the snow--there are no "OMFG the brakes are wet!" (or frozen up) moments.
In this application, I would have nothing but disc brakes. There are zero maintenance issues, I don't need new wheels every year, and the stop every single time. The disadvantages--wheel weight, dearth of 130mm rear disc hubs--aren't a major issue for me.

Yeah, my Portland doesn't accelerate or climb like my other bikes. BFD. It's not a racer, it's a commuter. And Velocity makes an excellent 130mm rear disc hub.

My three other road bikes all have traditional rim brakes. Outside of foul weather (and perhaps mountain descents) I don't see the need for disc brakes on a road bike. 

While I applaud Volagi's entry to the market with disc brake road bikes, I'm not sure one's in my future. My primary foul weather bike already has disc brakes. Through the winter I can get out for leisure rides only a couple of times a month. So for a dozen winter rides max, I just throw a set of Kool-Stop Salmons on my Ti bike (which laughs at the salt) and call it good.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

OP, are you sure you need them? I'm not bashing the idea, but depending on the ride, I can often get through without needing to touch the brakes much.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Ledipus said:


> I have had this "discussion" several times with members over on MTBR so I won't go into details here, but disc brakes do not provide more stopping power. It is the exact opposite, such a small braking surface, and being that far away from the point of contact means less stopping power. If you don't believe me then why do downhill bikes and high performance sports cars need significantly larger rotors with the braking surface closer to the rim?


Sports cars have bigger brakes not to be closer to the point of contact but because the vehicle is heavier. They need the greater contact surface and additional cooling effect since they have to do more work. It also allows for bigger calipers with more pistons. Additionally, the caliper is usually mounted at the top of the rotor which puts it further away from the point of contact.
Over the years cars have had to go to bigger wheels to accommodate the bigger brakes needed, not the other way around.

I have a Caterham 7 sports car that weighs about 1100lbs (average modern sports car weighs over 3000lbs now) and it has tiny little brakes and will pretty much out-brake anything



> Quality disc brakes are superior for true mountain bikes, but let's not forget that the conditions of a road and MTB bike are just a little bit different.


Seems to me that conditions are worse and brakes are needed more, so the small discs should be more than up to the task on a road bike











> They would only add weight, and IMO decrease opinion.


According to Velogi, the disc brake set up is only 270g more than a traditional caliper, it would seem much of that weight can be saved by the lighter rims that discs will afford.


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## AlanE (Jan 22, 2002)

spade2you said:


> OP, are you sure you need them? I'm not bashing the idea, but depending on the ride, I can often get through without needing to touch the brakes much.


Need? Of course not. Want? Maybe. I like bikes. 

If I'm going to have multiple bikes, I don't want them all to be basically the same. I already have a road bike, 2 cross bikes, a fixie and a SS.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

I once had what was probably the first road bike ever with a disc brake. Way back in 6th grade, I got an AMF Roadmaster for $112 that had a Shimano mechanical disc brake on the rear only.

Loved it. And yes, particularly in the wet, it worked great.

To give you an idea how long ago 6th grade was for me, I attended my 30th high school class reunion last night....


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## aluminum (May 6, 2011)

j.king said:


> I would also argue that we could see lighter weight rims as with a disc brake setup the braking track on the rim is no longer needed.


yeah but then you would add the same weight more than 2 fold with the disc brake setup

so your logic is shave 30 grams off the rims, and then add 150 grams for the disc brakes?


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

MoPho said:


> According to Velogi, the disc brake set up is only 270g more than a traditional caliper, it would seem much of that weight can be saved by the lighter rims that discs will afford.


Is that 270g total or per wheel? Does that include the extra/thicker spokes to stiffen the wheel, or just the caliper and rotor? What about the extra hub weight, and longer cable housing? Weight of brakes is pretty varied, are they 270g heavier then Sora, Chorus, or Red?

How are you going to make the rim lighter? Thin out the braking track? Does not work like that. Clinchers need to have thicker walls to support the pressure pushing out from the tube. You can't make the track that much thinner, at least not 200g less. 

Many have cited increased stopping power in wet conditions. Be honest if your not racing or crazy about cycling what would you be doing out riding in the rain? I understand it does happen, you sign up for a charity ride join a group ride and the weather turns bad but you do it anyway. How many times a year? What percentage of your milage was in the wet, snow, sleet? Is it worth the extra weight on all the nice days for the hand full of times in poor conditions?

YMMV


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Road bikes have a 700mm "rotor" disc brakes typically have a 165mm rotor. I wouldnt want to be a long mountain descent with disc brakes. 

The other advantage of disc brakes is that you can run a big meaty tire and apply tons of braking force over and over without getting hand pump. Hand pump isnt really even considered in road biking. Its a solution to a problem we dont encounter on the road. Jamming on the brakes at full threshold braking is a pretty good way to piss off anyone you ride with too!Theres the mud thing as well, but again not a road issue.

I would very specifically NOT buy a road bike if it had disc brakes on it. All my mountain bikes run hydro discs though.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

TomH said:


> Road bikes have a 700mm "rotor" disc brakes typically have a 165mm rotor. I wouldnt want to be a long mountain descent with disc brakes.


That's 160mm.

Disc brakes on a long mountain descent are exactly why I chose my Portland to climb Mt Evans.










I'm a Great Lakes flatlander. I had exactly zero experience with long mountain descents (let alone climbs). I figured that inexperience would express itself in a certain timidity that the locals didn't have. 

Once coming down the mountain, it was clear that I'd made the right choice. Stiff crosswinds threatening to blow me over the side, mile after mile of broken pavement, and no guiderails meant I arrived at the bottom a full ten minutes after the two locals I rode up with. I can't imagine riding rim brakes like that for 12 of the 14 miles.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

QuattroCreep said:


> Is that 270g total or per wheel? Does that include the extra/thicker spokes to stiffen the wheel, or just the caliper and rotor? What about the extra hub weight, and longer cable housing? Weight of brakes is pretty varied, are they 270g heavier then Sora, Chorus, or Red?
> 
> How are you going to make the rim lighter? Thin out the braking track? Does not work like that. Clinchers need to have thicker walls to support the pressure pushing out from the tube. You can't make the track that much thinner, at least not 200g less.
> 
> ...



What part of "according to Volagi" did you not understand? If you want answers to those questions you'll have to ask them yourself. I don't work for them, I only know what I read on their site when I was somewhat interested in the bike before I went in a different direction. They also claim that their wheel weighs 1495g which is lighter than the Reynolds Assaults I have on my BMC. Their complete bike also weighs just over 16lbs and it is more of a long distance performance bike than a lightweight racer










Bike Rumor


While it's certainly fun to have a light bike, arguing the weight factor is a just poseur BS, ultimately the weight difference isn't all that much in the end and will be lost on most riders anyway. I have dropped guys riding weight weenie CF bikes on my old 21lb steel De Rosa. It's not the bike! 
Additionally, there are many bikes that are well below the UCI min limit, so adding the 2-300g shouldn't be an issue

When I was considering the Volagi, I had read a bunch of threads regarding disc brakes and it is funny how people get all indignant about it, it's just like in the compact crank discussions, as if somehow it's an assault on your manhood to have such equipment ut:


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

QuattroCreep said:


> Be honest if your not racing or crazy about cycling what would you be doing out riding in the rain?


Commuting.










And you forgot about the snow.


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

I like the paint job.


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

brucew said:


> Commuting.


I think that falls under the crazy option. Since there are other ways to commute in weather like that.

MoPho: I was not really looking for you to answer the questions. It was more about just putting them out there, and getting people to think about it. Bike companies have been known to fudge on marketing when it comes to weight. 

I never said they were a bad idea. I asked "Is it worth the extra weight on all the nice days for the hand full of times in poor conditions?". Only each person can answer that for themselves based on how and when they ride. brucew has shown some compelling reasons why he rides with disk brakes. He also has other bikes for nice days. 

And I have no problems with compact cranks. They make sense based on how and where you ride.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I think a lot of this discussion is constrained by existing options. In the future (flying cars and all that) the disc brake might be made much smaller and allow racers/riders to achieve faster speeds safer on some of those screaming descents. No fear of rims heating up and all that. Maybe use of ceramics. From what I have heard from industry R&D folks is that road disc brakes like I have described are actually closer at hand than discs for cyclocross as cyclocross is still just a niche player and they don't want to fuss with building more robust brakes to handle the dirt for merely a small market.


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## JTrider (Jun 27, 2011)

I have a 29er MTB with Disc brakes and a CF road brake with rim brakes, and ride the two frequently. I will say having the discs on the MTB has made a huge difference, but I think I have needed that kind of stopping power more so on the mountain than the road. I haven't had a situation on my roadbike (knock on wood) where I was like, "If i had just had disc brakes...". So unless you find yourself needing to stop faster or riding in wet conditions frequently and not minding the good amount of added weight, I'd stick to the rim brakes.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

The only reasons why someone might actually need disc brakes on a road bike are if they ride in the rain a lot and/or do a lot of touring/commuting in the rain. For normal road riding, you don't need extreme braking power and it can actually be a detriment. Have you ever been on a group ride when someone slammed on their brakes and caused or nearly caused a pile up?

A better solution for most cyclists who avoid riding in the rain is to simply install some Kool Stop salmon pads on your caliper road brakes. That will provide better braking in wet conditions. Cantilever brakes are also better.

For the average road cyclist who doesn't regularly ride in the rain, disc brakes simply add more weight and make your wheels incompatible with other bikes since most are spaced at 135 mm. If regular caliper brakes don't provide you enough stopping power, you're either doing something wrong, your brakes are out of adjustment or need new pads, or you have an old road bike with crappy brakes.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I could see the advantages of disk brakes on long descents. I have two mountain bikes, one with disk brakes, one with rim brakes. I find the disk brakes easier to actuate, which really saves on your hands. I have been coming down mountains on my rim brake bike, and had to stop to let my wrists/hands rest the rim brakes required so much squeezing to use. These are XTR V brakes with good pads.
I don't ride my road bike in the mountains that much, but I could see the same benefit. My concern would be modulating the power of the disk brake, I'd hate to lock up the front brake at an inopportune time. I could see the benefit for cyclocross use much more, except I'd worry about dinging a disk during some sketchy maneuvers or crashes.


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## Straz85 (May 12, 2011)

I personally like the feel of disc brakes a lot more than rim brakes. I have owned three sets of hydraulic disc brakes (XT, Elixir 5, Hayes (forget the model)) and two sets of mechanical disc brakes (Tektro Novela, BB7) and I liked all of them more than the 105's on my road bike, even the lowly Tektros. If you compare the weight of a disc brake vs. rim brake wheel, typically the disc brake wheel is a tad lighter. I am always seeing one of the concerns about disc brakes that they are maintenance heavy, which in my experience is 100% untrue. I have only had to replace one set of pads and never had to bleed any of my hydraulic ones. On a road bike, the rotors would be much less prone to warping than on a mountain bike, and as long as you make sure your rotors aren't leaning on anything, they're generally fine. Stopping power is also significantly better and as many people have mentioned, wet weather braking is almost as good as dry.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

MoPho said:


> What part of "according to Volagi" did you not understand? If you want answers to those questions you'll have to ask them yourself. I don't work for them, I only know what I read on their site when I was somewhat interested in the bike before I went in a different direction. They also claim that their wheel weighs 1495g which is lighter than the Reynolds Assaults I have on my BMC. Their complete bike also weighs just over 16lbs and it is more of a long distance performance bike than a lightweight racer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait a second....youre here spouting the "benefits" of disk brakes on road bikes, throwing numbers at us and putting forth all kinds of benefits....but when people do the same as a counterpoint to your argument, suddenly "its not about the bike"???

Seriously....YOU can argue the brake power factor and thats OK, but someone else argues as a counterpoint the weight factor and thats "poseur BS"??? Come on.

IMO, I can lock up my DA7900s in two seconds flat. IMHO, the benefits of disks on pure road bikes is negated by the super small tire contact patch. Plus, the benefit to disk brakes would be on high speed descents, right? Well, guess what? Disks present their own problems with high heat, too. IMHO, I just dont see the need. Whatever benefit Im getting isnt worth the weight penalty.


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## Oldguybikingnewb (Jan 25, 2011)

My one and only experience with Disc Break set up was on a MTB. Locked up the front wheel on a panic didn't see it coming jump, hurled myself 20' through the air over the handle bars, rode down the mtn slowly with a messed up body. Last time I rode a MTB.

I can lock up my traditional brakes just fine on my road bike. I've put my bike side ways twice on emergency stops, and held it both times, once doing 40mph down the Blue Ride Parkway (car in my lane passing another biker on a corner). I'm fine without discs.

Just my 2c.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Being somebody that owned a road bike with disc brakes (I had them put on a custom Curtlo) I can say i much prefer both the braking power and modulation of discs over rim brakes.

I love how many people will spout off how they are not needed on road bikes...yet, they have never ridden a road bike with them on one. So in reality they have absolutely "NO" practical experience and have no ability to say one way or another whether they are a benefit or not...it's just a wild and speculative guess on their part. Until you try it, why are you downgrading the use? And, riding a MTB with disc brakes doesn't count!!!

As for the weight argument...they are not much heavier than the current rim brakes on the market and when development picks up and they come out with hydraulic disc brakes for road bikes the weight will come down much more with the difference being minimal at best...Just look at the difference in weight between a MTB cable set up and a hydraulic set up, it can easily be 150-200 grams to the best system out there.

The weight argument with disc brakes should be irrelevant...a couple of extra ounces on a bike isn't going to make any difference at all for any rider out there...even the top level pros. The only exception to this is when a person needs to impress their friends (or those on the internet) with their bike on a scale (of which they have removed the pedals, computer, bottle cages and anything else they can to show a low weight). 

The biggest bonus for disc brakes comes in two areas:

1. Weather...just because you might live in an area where there isn't a lot of rain, snow, etc...doesn't mean many others don't. Our race season starts in February and this past season approximately 80% of the one day road races were held in wet conditions. Given many ride carbon rims which don't brake well at all in the wet...discs would help out tremendously in these situations....and as far as bike commuting goes, well there is no substitute if you want great year round braking.

2. Carbon Clinchers...A good road bike disc brake set up solves the issues with carbon clinchers and opens them up to cheaper and mass production for the average rider. You no longer need super heat resistant resin, extra material around the tire bead, etc. The braking can be excellent with no fear of a tire being blown off due to over heating the rim. They can also make the rims lighter...just look at how MTB rims have dropped in weight with disc brakes. A very light weight 26" rim used to be 400 grams with rim brakes...Now you can get 380 gram rims for a 29" wheel and 350 gram rims for 26" wheels that are stronger and more durable than the old 400 gram rim brake rims.

In the end...I find the road riders the least likely to accept change. The road is full of retro grouches and weight weenies and any extra ounce or a bike with a sloping top tube or no lugs is unacceptable to them. If a part/component is good enough for them it should be good enough for everybody, if it doesn't conform to their norms it's a worthless piece of crap idea! 

It's the MTB world that is open to advancement in both technology and experimentation with what actually works and doesn't work. Again...if you don't try it, how do you really know whether it works or not...speculation? Many things in life are counter-intuitive and those that don't try things never understand or can enjoy the advancements that are available to them if they just give things a chance....in other words get your face out of the adds and on the road with things that really work instead of listening to marketing departments.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Wait a second....youre here spouting the "benefits" of disk brakes on road bikes, throwing numbers at us and putting forth all kinds of benefits....but when people do the same as a counterpoint to your argument, suddenly "its not about the bike"???
> 
> Seriously....YOU can argue the brake power factor and thats OK, but someone else argues as a counterpoint the weight factor and thats "poseur BS"??? Come on.
> 
> IMO, I can lock up my DA7900s in two seconds flat. IMHO, the benefits of disks on pure road bikes is negated by the super small tire contact patch. Plus, the benefit to disk brakes would be on high speed descents, right? Well, guess what? Disks present their own problems with high heat, too. IMHO, I just dont see the need. Whatever benefit Im getting isnt worth the weight penalty.



Umm, there is a big difference between having safer, more controlled braking that works in all weather conditions and doesn't cause your tires/rims to overheat and delaminate vs worrying about a few oz of weight that will make no difference to your performance at all. As Wookiebiker notes, the only thing the weight argument is good for is impressing your friends, so yeah, that is poseur crap.

And the ability to lock up your brakes is not necessarily a sign of good brake performance, it's more about modulation and consistency. 
What problems with heat do discs present that are going to put you in danger? They seem to work fine for downhill racers who are going at speeds that are as fast or faster than road bikes


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MoPho said:


> They seem to work fine for downhill racers who are going at speeds that are as fast or faster than road bikes


DH racers use them to avoid going faster than road bikes.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

spade2you said:


> DH racers use them to avoid going faster than road bikes.


This is somewhat true...Brakes are about modulating speed...not necessarily stopping power. The simple fact is disc brakes have better modulation than rim brakes, which makes them a better option all things considered.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

spade2you said:


> DH racers use them to avoid going faster than road bikes.



So then they are using the brakes even more and creating more heat without issue :wink:


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

OldZaskar said:


> Mountain bikes can take advantage of the increased braking power... road bikes can't. A .5" x 1" contact patch needs very little braking power. I like the idea of eliminating wear on the rims, but don't think it comes close to the downside of disc brakes, e.g. weight, complexity (relatively speaking).


Let's take this to carbon rims and the fun of braking on long downhills. 

I think the industry could come up with a lite aero cable brake rather fast. I know Avid already makes one. The BB7 are a tad heavy, but not expensive and work well. 

I think it's a good starting point, but one would have to replace the frame and wheels to get them.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MoPho said:


> So then they are using the brakes even more and creating more heat without issue :wink:


No, the DH are generating too much heat and contributing to global warming. They need to be stopped...............


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Oldguybikingnewb said:


> My one and only experience with Disc Break set up was on a MTB. Locked up the front wheel on a panic didn't see it coming jump, hurled myself 20' through the air over the handle bars, rode down the mtn slowly with a messed up body. Last time I rode a MTB.
> 
> I can lock up my traditional brakes just fine on my road bike. I've put my bike side ways twice on emergency stops, and held it both times, once doing 40mph down the Blue Ride Parkway (car in my lane passing another biker on a corner). I'm fine without discs.
> 
> Just my 2c.


Not trying to bug you, but locking up the front on the MTB was not the fault of the brake, but the rider. Honestly though, this is common with beginning mtb riders (well not the launch part) Glad you made it down without serious problems.

We had a neighbor's daughter killed launching into a tree when she locked up her front RIM break on an mtb outing at camp.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

QuattroCreep said:


> I think that falls under the crazy option. Since there are other ways to commute in weather like that.
> 
> .


Yeah, a snowmobile..


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Other than 4 season commuting, Discs are a solution looking for a problem IMO.

Lets see, Higher weight, more complexity, more potential stress on a fork leg, for slightly better modulation especially in wet riding (something most do very little riding in). 

It's nice having choices but in Discs case, there aren't many places where the choice is warrented.

len


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

A friend recently related to me how bad his accident involving the now-recalled Civia disc carbon fork was.

I think it takes a lot of faith to get in line for lightweight disc forks at this point. It's one thing to put a disc brake on an indestructible MTB fork, but I kind of like my road forks to do something other than being bombproof and rigid.


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## Lotophage (Feb 19, 2011)

Len J said:


> Other than 4 season commuting, Discs are a solution looking for a problem IMO.
> 
> Lets see, Higher weight, more complexity, more potential stress on a fork leg, for slightly better modulation especially in wet riding (something most do very little riding in).
> 
> ...


As a longtime disc holdout, I thought I'd be agreeing with you here, but now that I've got a set of simple mechanical bb7s on my drop-bar 29er, I gotta disagree.

They aren't any more complicated than any road caliper and they're far easier to set up than cantis. There's a little bit of a learning curve figuring out how to set them up, but that's true of any brake. 

Yes, they weigh more, but if Volagi can build a 16 pound bike with them, they're probably light enough. 

The big advantage of discs is that they're easy. No quick releases to forget to close. Once they're adjusted, they just work. Need to stop hard from the hoods? no problem. Wet? no problem. Dusty? no problem. Wheel out of true? not a problem. Hit a pothole and whanged your wheel out of shape? no problem. one finger stopping. easy, predictable modulation. 

I see discs the same way I see Brifters- they make things easier for people who aren't super dedicated cyclists. Sure, indexed DT shifters are far lighter than brifters, they're less expensive, less complex and if you know what you are doing, they're probably better than brifters- they don't encourage you to shift every time you go over a speed bump. 

But there's no denying they've made cycling a whole lot easier for most cyclists.


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

I think many people misunderstand the concept of greater stopping power vs better modulation. Both type of brakes can lock up a wheel so they both have more than enough stopping power. But the ability to press hard or soft, 1 finger or two and still get the same feel in the brakes is a great feeling. Disc brakes work better IMO. They are only a little DIFFERENT to install no more difficult. Its only difficult the first time just like your cantis and V's were. 
Weight difference? Unless you are going up hill 1/2lb isn't going to make anyone slower. Many roadbikers are obsessed with weight and they sacrfice some silly things for it. I will actually argue that soem extra weight might make you faster once you build your momentum it is easier to maintain as you have more inertia. 
I know alot of people with the Zero-G brakes and they all said the stopping power is not as good as the Shimanos/Campys etc BUT they saved 76g! Statements like this say it all
I am not the fastest sprinter and far from the best climber but if I had a bike that was a 1/2lb lighter I would be

.
.

.
.
.
.
.Still not the fastest sprinter and far from the best climber. But I would feel safer on a downhill!


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## saf-t (Sep 24, 2008)

tarwheel2 said:


> The only reasons why someone might actually need disc brakes on a road bike are if they ride in the rain a lot and/or do a lot of touring/commuting in the rain.


For the past couple of years, I've been considering putting a disk-capable fork on my winter frankenbike. Sand and salt combined with regular winter road grit really scour the crap out of my rims, and there doesn't seem to be much of a downside to the conversion


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

psycleridr said:


> I know alot of people with the Zero-G brakes and they all said the stopping power is not as good as the Shimanos/Campys etc BUT they saved 76g! Statements like this say it all


Zero-G brakes don't have stopping power, which was something I didn't know until after I purchased them. They do alright for racers since stopping on a dime simply isn't going to happen. These simply help scrub off speed and nothing more.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Len J said:


> Other than 4 season commuting, Discs are a solution looking for a problem IMO.
> 
> Lets see, Higher weight, more complexity, more potential stress on a fork leg, for slightly better modulation especially in wet riding (something most do very little riding in).
> 
> ...


Pretty much says it all. By the way, a caliper/cantilever/Vbrake "rim brake" is essentially a "disc brake." The rim is just a big disc.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

MoPho said:


> Umm, there is a big difference between having safer, more controlled braking that works in all weather conditions and doesn't cause your tires/rims to overheat and delaminate vs worrying about a few oz of weight that will make no difference to your performance at all. As Wookiebiker notes, the only thing the weight argument is good for is impressing your friends, so yeah, that is poseur crap.
> 
> And the ability to lock up your brakes is not necessarily a sign of good brake performance, it's more about modulation and consistency.
> What problems with heat do discs present that are going to put you in danger? They seem to work fine for downhill racers who are going at speeds that are as fast or faster than road bikes


Wow...I dont know where to begin. 

Ill start at the top, my experience. Ive been running hydros on my mountain bike for six years now. Previous to that, I was using the best V brakes out there, the Shimano XTR parallel pulls. When I made the switch, the difference was startling. No longer were conditions a factor. Lousy trails...mud, snow, rain, what have you, didnt affect brake performance at all. Modulation was great, power was great, etc. Im well aware of the benefits of hydros and disks. So I have my own experience and I am familiar with how they work, how you set them up, maintain them, etc. Ive taken apart calipers, master cylinders, bled them out a million times, etc.

Disk brakes, like any part/product is a a fine tool for given application. But the huge...HUGE flaw in your argument is that they should be used in any application. Im sorry, I dont buy that. Not here, not with aero wheels, 29ers, long travel bikes, carbon, etc. NOTHING is a "be all/end all" product in cycling. I looked at their website. These are touring bikes and they are being touted as such by Volagi. They are sold in as "long distance" bikes than can be ridden in any condition. So sure...if thats your thing and you want a ride you can take out in the rain and snow, in an upright position with your saddle and bars level, and yes...with weight not a primary concern, knock yourself out. 

Whats works for you is but ONE cycling application. Me? I dont ride a "comfort" bike like a Volagi, I dont want a "comfort" bike and I dont need a "comfort" bike. Im in an aggro position, hauling ass and I count every gram I bring with me. So I built my bike for that and thats how I *roll.* And know what? NEITHER way of going, no way of rolling is "better" or more impressive than the other. I got the right tool for my application....the Volagi might be the right tool for yours...and NEITHER is "poseur." Im sorry, with all due respect thats such a bush league way of thinking. I dont roll how YOU do, so my preferences and things I consider big factors (like weight) are "poseurish." Who the hell made YOU arbiter or whats right and wrong in cycling?

Read this....I think you need to:

Blog


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## SnowMongoose (Mar 7, 2007)

Discs on my road-ride would be one less excuse to avoid riding due to weather.
Seeing as it rains all the time here, sounds like a good thing to me.
(bonus points for loving discs on my MTBs)


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## 2Slo4U (Feb 12, 2005)

I feel like I'm on MTBR.com 10 years ago....same topic...same debate. Disc brakes vs. rim brakes. 

Let me think....disc brakes clearly won. I think the same will happen with road bikes!


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

2Slo4U said:


> I feel like I'm on MTBR.com 10 years ago....same topic...same debate. Disc brakes vs. rim brakes.
> 
> Let me think....disc brakes clearly won. I think the same will happen with road bikes!


Am I the only human on earth who can easily skid both 23c tires on dry pavement with even the cheapest road calipers?

The braking needs of fat tired off road vehicles and road bikes with contact patches the size of stamps are clearly different.

On top of that, discs require forks with qualities that are counter to the ride characteristics sought in road bikes that don't have 2 inches of air and rubber under the rims.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Wow...I dont know where to begin.
> 
> Ill start at the top, my experience. Ive been running hydros on my mountain bike for six years now. Previous to that, I was using the best V brakes out there, the Shimano XTR parallel pulls. When I made the switch, the difference was startling. No longer were conditions a factor. Lousy trails...mud, snow, rain, what have you, didnt affect brake performance at all. Modulation was great, power was great, etc. Im well aware of the benefits of hydros and disks. So I have my own experience and I am familiar with how they work, how you set them up, maintain them, etc. Ive taken apart calipers, master cylinders, bled them out a million times, etc.
> 
> ...



Really? :lol:
Perhaps you should check your reading comprehension, nowhere did I suggest that disc brakes should be used in every application or that everyone should use them! And how is what I said inserting my will on others any more than those arguing against it based on their personal preferences????!!!!!

My entire point was to counter those arguing weight as the reason against disc brakes. Sure it's nice and fun to have a light bike, but if you think the extra 6-8oz is really going to make a difference in your performance then you really drank the Koolaid. 
Do road bikes _need_ disc brakes, no! Would it be nice to have, yes!

And FYI, I ruled out buying the Volagi because it was too much of a comfort bike and bought a bike with CF wheels and aggro position so I can "haul ass" And guess what, nearly $6k later it is still heavier than the Volagi. So I guess the disc brakes aren't that heavy after all. Obviously, I don't _need_ disc brakes but I would like to have them though. 
Disc brakes on road bikes is in its infancy, it is conceivable that 13-14lb bikes will exist in the near future


Additionally, many people consider people like me who have really nice road bikes and don't race as poseurs, maybe you should do as some say here on RBR.....HTFU and don't take it so personally.

Thanks for playing :wink:


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

What do you all think a road disc brake would have to achieve to make it a superior alternative to caliper brakes?


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Kontact said:


> Am I the only human on earth who can easily skid both 23c tires on dry pavement with even the cheapest road calipers?


As has been said...many, many times...it's not about the "Power", though they are stronger...it's about the modulation. You can take any brake and make them powerful, but modulating their power can be difficult. This isn't so much the case with disc brakes.

Brakes are not about "Stopping" they are about controlling speed in a manageable way.

As was said by another poster...this is the "Exact Same Debate" that took place on MTB forums 10 years ago, and we all know how that turned out.

When people don't see the advantage of a clearly superior stopping method...they are not looking hard enough, or are unwilling to admit that there are better options out there that just need a bit of work to become a viable alternative.

I'd almost guarantee that if the bike manufacturers came out with disc equipped road bikes that were light, had great modulation and great stopping power...and were still able to come in under UCI weight limits...The pro's would love to see and use them. I'm sure many will be hesitant to switch in Cyclocross this year, but in a few years...you won't see anything but Disc brakes on Cross bikes.


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## Alkan (Jun 30, 2011)

I think that you could actually descend faster if you had brakes that you could be more confident in. I might bomb it at 50 mph towards a sharper turn if I know that the brakes can actually stop me.

I actually had the idea of disk brakes when I thought about the fact that the only reason I don't get as ballsy on a road bike as I do in a car is the fact that the brakes can't stop nearly as powerfully.

I see the whole poser vs. non-poser argument. There's merits to both sides, but I tend to go with the idea that unless you're racing competitively, 3 pounds won't do **** for you that's worth spending an extra 3,000 bucks. I weigh about 2 pounds more at the end of the day than at the beginning from water weight. If you hydrate differently you can save weight.

Unless you have 6% body fat, control everything you eat carefully, etc. etc. etc. there's no reason to be a weight freak. I can see a difference of anything over 2 pounds, but beyond that, I think you're just getting over the top about it unless seconds are truly important to you.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Alkan said:


> I can see a difference of anything over 2 pounds, but beyond that, I think you're just getting over the top about it unless seconds are truly important to you.


The funny thing is you would only be giving up 2-6 ounces for a good hydraulic disc brake system over caliper brakes...so the weight argument is pretty much non-existant in reality...it's just that people don't want to admit it. 

When it came to MTB brakes, they were pretty comparable overall when going from rim brakes to disc brakes and bikes now are much lighter than they ever were with rim brakes...I guess the math there says the weight would not be an issue if they came out with them for road bikes.

The other aspect is that with electronic shifting becoming a viable option with Shimano, they will now have room in the levers for a brake reservoirs that they don't have with mechanical systems...so even the lack of room argument doesn't work that well any longer.

What's funny is everybody basically said the same thing about electronic shifting (what's the point)...then Shimano came out with DI2 and it's just better than mechanical shifting...the main problem is it's more expensive for the time being, but that will come down over time.

As I've said before...road cyclists are very resistant to change...but sometimes change has to happen before they will accept it. :idea:


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## 251 (Nov 2, 2009)

2Slo4U said:


> I feel like I'm on MTBR.com 10 years ago....same topic...same debate. Disc brakes vs. rim brakes.
> 
> Let me think....disc brakes clearly won. I think the same will happen with road bikes!


Do you think we can have this moved to the MTBR Brake forum?

FWIW, I held out and used ceramic rims and v-brakes on my hartail XC bike until 2009. BB7s were my gateway to discs and I haven't looked back.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

MoPho said:


> Really? :lol:
> Perhaps you should check your reading comprehension, nowhere did I suggest that disc brakes should be used in every application or that everyone should use them! And how is what I said inserting my will on others any more than those arguing against it based on their personal preferences????!!!!!
> 
> My entire point was to counter those arguing weight as the reason against disc brakes. Sure it's nice and fun to have a light bike, but if you think the extra 6-8oz is really going to make a difference in your performance then you really drank the Koolaid.
> ...


Youre doing it again and you dont even realize it. Youre coming up with all these perceived advantages to disk brakes, but the possible advantages of a lighter bike? Well, if you believe _those_, youre just drinking the Kool Aid! 

Silly.


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## Alkan (Jun 30, 2011)

Yeah. I think that there is no point in not putting disc brakes on your bike even if you're in a professional race. Whatever you lose in the climb you'll surely make up for in the descent with the gained handling when you can actually slow down quickly before corners. And I know that's the case because when I'm in a hurry in my car I tend to shoot towards turns and hit the brakes a lot harder rather. On a hill with switchbacks you''ll save so much time with disc brakes...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Alkan said:


> On a hill with switchbacks you''ll save so much time with disc brakes...


The pros are way faster than us, but they get by without disc brakes by knowing how to descend.....most of the time.


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## Alkan (Jun 30, 2011)

I think that even they would gain time with disc brakes. Being able to slow faster actually makes you go down faster. Your braking distance will be much shorter, so you don't have to apply the brakes way before the turn comes up, which will get you extra time.

Perhaps though they'll either ban them from most pro races or they'll make them mandatory in time. It'll be interesting to see if and when this takes off. I hope it does because I'm going to do a lot of descending on roads with cars. Cars stop fast sometimes.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Wookiebiker said:


> As has been said...many, many times...it's not about the "Power", though they are stronger...it's about the modulation. You can take any brake and make them powerful, but modulating their power can be difficult. This isn't so much the case with disc brakes.
> 
> Brakes are not about "Stopping" they are about controlling speed in a manageable way.
> 
> ...


Well, which is it? It is generally held that less powerful brakes modulate better, and you've already agreed that calipers are powerful enough. But then you go back to talking about power.


And, of course, you completely avoid any discussion about fork design and the ride issues I brought up.


You know, in the '50s they thought everything was going to be either powered by jet engines or nuclear reactors. Both are useful, but not for every application. Caliper brakes are light, effective for road bikes and allow the fork to be built in a lively, effective manner for road use. We could certainly have better brakes, but I doubt discs are the correct technology to "fix" the road bike brake problem.


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

Dajianshan said:


> What do you all think a road disc brake would have to achieve to make it a superior alternative to caliper brakes?


UCI acceptance. The manufactures would reaaly throw some R&D $$$$ into it to make them lighter without compromising the advantages


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## Alkan (Jun 30, 2011)

There's a big difference in reliable power in discs. If you can hold the brakes without blowing out a tire or wearing through a rim that's something to consider.

Pros don't need to worry about it when their 12,000 dollar bikes get replaced in an instant, but everyone else should really be using discs to protect their wheels and their lives on roads that have cars.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Alkan said:


> I think that even they would gain time with disc brakes. Being able to slow faster actually makes you go down faster. Your braking distance will be much shorter, so you don't have to apply the brakes way before the turn comes up, which will get you extra time.
> 
> Perhaps though they'll either ban them from most pro races or they'll make them mandatory in time. It'll be interesting to see if and when this takes off. I hope it does because I'm going to do a lot of descending on roads with cars. Cars stop fast sometimes.


You don't road race.


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## dbleyepatches (Jun 22, 2011)

My only experience with disc brakes was on a MTB when discs first came out. I could never get them adjusted to have zero drag. I am sure that things have changed but if there is always some drag with the discs, this would be a problem.

Living in Nebraska, I don't have enough long descents to warrant disc brakes and being a flatlander, I don't think my rim brakes work that bad when they are wet.


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## Lotophage (Feb 19, 2011)

Kontact said:


> Well, which is it? It is generally held that less powerful brakes modulate better, and you've already agreed that calipers are powerful enough. But then you go back to talking about power.
> 
> 
> And, of course, you completely avoid any discussion about fork design and the ride issues I brought up.
> ...


I know, and indexing was a solution to a problem that didn't exist, and brifters aren't any better than DT levers if you know what you are doing, and Di2 is a total waste of money and a complete dead end...

Who needs to "fix" the shifting problem? as long as you know what you are doing, there's no problem at all. 

Here's what'll happen going forward. Shimano will start making road discs. THey'll start by talking about how replacing traditional calipers with disc brakes lowers your center of gravity for better handling. They'll talk about how lightening the rim and moving that weight to a center mounted 140mm disc centralizes mass and makes handling more responsive- after all, we all know that lighter rims are better. And someone will notice that you can fit slightly fatter tires on a bike that's not running short reach calipers, so your bike is more versatile (even though you'd never run anything but 23s)

And the next thing you know, everyone will want them. 

And the industry in general will love the idea, because it'll mean everyone needs new frames, shifters, wheels, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if someone came out with disc-specific tires. 

And the new gold rush will be on in the industry. Just like STI, Just like aheadsets, Just like carbon, Just like external BBs, just like BB30. 

it is inevitable. 

give in.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Youre doing it again and you dont even realize it. Youre coming up with all these perceived advantages to disk brakes, but the possible advantages of a lighter bike? Well, if you believe _those_, youre just drinking the Kool Aid!
> 
> Silly.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Kontact said:


> Well, which is it? It is generally held that less powerful brakes modulate better, and you've already agreed that calipers are powerful enough. But then you go back to talking about power.
> 
> 
> And, of course, you completely avoid any discussion about fork design and the ride issues I brought up.
> ...


That's the beauty of disc brakes...you get both...with caliper brakes, you don't always get both and many times you get neither. Disc brakes offer both better power and modulation than caliper brakes...especially in in-climate weather conditions.

Fork design isn't nearly the issue you make it out to be. There are already forks on the market that do just fine with disc brakes. For the front I'd actually rather see a dual front brake system (one on each side) using smaller discs and smaller pads (dispersing the energy over two systems instead of one)...this would keep fork rotation under control, keep things balanced up front and offer a large amount of both braking and modulation. You could even incorporate the brake calipers into the fork hiding them in it or making them an integral part of the fork.

Roadies can fight it all they want...but they are coming and they are not too far off. Several systems have already been put out and some were ahead of their time...with that said, their time is coming. When it does...have fun with your caliper brakes, I'll be enjoying a nice set of disc brakes on my road bike


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Disc brake equipped wheels need to be much beefier, because huge torques are transmitted through the rims and spokes. Probably 32-36 spokes, 2X or 3X lacing, and a rim whose nipples aren't going to pull through or crack. Note the front wheel of the Volagi bike

Not a concern on a touring or commuter bike, but I doubt many roadies are willing to give up their lighweight 16 or 20 spoke radial front wheels, etc.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> Roadies can fight it all they want...but they are coming and they are not too far off.


I assume I'd be out of Cat 4 by that point, but I have a bad feeling with how disc brakes will more than likely cause more crashing and more riding their brakes than already going on in Cat 4 and 5.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

tom_h said:


> Disc brake equipped wheels need to be much beefier, because huge torques are transmitted through the rims and spokes. Probably 32-36 spokes, 2X or 3X lacing, and a rim whose nipples aren't going to pull through or crack. Note the front wheel of the Volagi bike
> 
> Not a concern on a touring or commuter bike, but I doubt many roadies are willing to give up their lighweight 16 or 20 spoke radial front wheels, etc.


Considering they are making MTB wheels with 28 spokes and the braking forces are much higher on those...I'd guess you may be wrong. Most however are built with 32 spokes.

With that said...Spokes add very little weight to a wheel, but add a lot of strength. Most road wheels use too few number of spokes because that's what sells right now. I purposefully had my 58mm deep carbon wheels built up with 28 spokes front and rear for extra durability...and the added weight was around 30-50 grams compared to using lower spoke numbers. That extra few grams haven't hurt me in a race yet...and I doubt they ever will...however, they provide a much more durable wheel set.

With road wheels and deep carbon rims, you could easily take more weight out of the rim if you were using disc brakes compared to rim brakes...which will more than counter the extra number of spokes needed with a disc brake system and actually make for a faster wheel when it comes to acceleration since more weight will be removed from the outside of the wheel.

Also...As I stated in a previous post...it eliminates all problem with deep carbon clinchers and those could be made lighter and much more competitive for the average racer...no need for a race wheel set when you can use them for both racing and training.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I assume I'd be out of Cat 4 by that point, but I have a bad feeling with how disc brakes will more than likely cause more crashing and more riding their brakes than already going on in Cat 4 and 5.


Maybe, but unlikely...in fact they may cause less crashing due to better modulation. Some road brakes tend to be off/on which causes quick changes in speed...being able to better control that speed would help reduce crashes instead of increase them.

Now the overall stopping power may be higher with discs, but the control gained would be beneficial.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Wookiebiker said:


> Roadies can fight it all they want...but they are coming and they are not too far off. Several systems have already been put out and some were ahead of their time...with that said, their time is coming. When it does...have fun with your caliper brakes, I'll be enjoying a nice set of disc brakes on my road bike



Do you actually think it will matter? Aside from the idea that you can stop faster therefore descend better (doubtful as most descending is actually being able to carry more corner speed out of corners not by being able to slow down faster) but even given that would make you a better desender most races don't end on a down hill run so what amazing gain are you making by having disc brakes? Im not arguing that they are better stoppers but my races really come down to who hits the brakes the least not who can stop faster (at least as far a brakes go).


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

32and3cross said:


> Do you actually think it will matter? Aside from the idea that you can stop faster therefore descend better (doubtful as most descending is actually being able to carry more corner speed out of corners not by being able to slow down faster) but even given that would make you a better desender most races don't end on a down hill run so what amazing gain are you making by having disc brakes? Im not arguing that they are better stoppers but my races really come down to who hits the brakes the least not who can stop faster (at least as far a brakes go).


I think it does matter...depending on where you live and ride.

For those in the Midwest where there are few long downhills, or few really steep and twisty descents...rim brakes work well enough that they don't care. However, if you live in a place with long, steep and sometimes very twisty descents...it does matter. 

I do agree that the fastest descender are the ones who touch their brakes the least...but that doesn't mean brakes are not important...if anything they are more important because a good descender is waiting to the last second to hit the brakes, even if it's just to scrub off a small amount of speed.

The other aspect to where you live is weather. I know that many of our single day classic races were held under wet conditions this year...as they are most seasons. With more and more riders racing on carbon rims, which don't brake that well in wet conditions, disc brakes make more sense. If you live in Southern Cal, Arizona, Texas, etc. they obviously wouldn't make as much sense compared to somebody that lives/races in the Northwest or even some of the other northern parts of the country where rain can play a big role in a race.

I know that when I'm racing in weather that has 42 degrees and rain, any help I can get from the bike is more than welcome. My hands get very cold, which makes pulling on the brakes more of a chore, especially later on in races...add in that rim brakes don't brake well int he rain, you have to pull on them that much more. A disc brake eliminates this problem and makes it safer for me racing or riding....and yes, I ride year round many times doing 80 mile rides in 35-40 degree and raining weather.

However...like I said...if you live in a southern state they may not seem to make much sense on the surface, but in the end would even help riders in those areas.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> Maybe, but unlikely...in fact they may cause less crashing due to better modulation. Some road brakes tend to be off/on which causes quick changes in speed...being able to better control that speed would help reduce crashes instead of increase them.
> 
> Now the overall stopping power may be higher with discs, but the control gained would be beneficial.


I'll see your modulation and raise you n00bs grabbing a handful of brake.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Lotophage said:


> As a longtime disc holdout, I thought I'd be agreeing with you here, but now that I've got a set of simple mechanical bb7s on my drop-bar 29er, I gotta disagree.
> 
> They aren't any more complicated than any road caliper and they're far easier to set up than cantis. There's a little bit of a learning curve figuring out how to set them up, but that's true of any brake.
> 
> ...


I thought we were talking about road bikes in this thread.

I also thought we were talking about today.

Many of the responses to this thread are aiming at what the manufacturers might produce in the future.........Which has no bearing on the original question as to what is available today.

Today, it is a solution looking for a problem with more downsides that up-sides for road bikes (outside of those used for commuting where they are becoming more and more popular).

Solve the existing problems with a real product, with real carbon forks that are designed to withstand the uniques stresses of disc brakes that still ride comfortably, at something that isn't a weight penalty, is simple to set up and maintain, is not a cost penalty and it's time will come. Until that happens, I'll stand by my contention.

Notice, I never said it wouldn't happen...it remains to be seen.

Len


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

All decent points - however nothing makes me think they will give you any sort real advantage on the road aginst other people. They might help slightly should you be off the front and having to descend to stay away but otherwise you speed modulation is going to be somewhat governed by those around you unless you get to the front and bomb a descent but then we are back to the whole "how many races have the finish right after the down hill" thing. 

They make prefect sense in cross and off road and I have no doubt that they will start to show up on raod bikes more and more but like ALOT of things they will make little real difference.



Wookiebiker said:


> I think it does matter...depending on where you live and ride.
> 
> For those in the Midwest where there are few long downhills, or few really steep and twisty descents...rim brakes work well enough that they don't care. However, if you live in a place with long, steep and sometimes very twisty descents...it does matter.
> 
> ...


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

tom_h said:


> Disc brake equipped wheels need to be much beefier, because huge torques are transmitted through the rims and spokes. Probably 32-36 spokes, 2X or 3X lacing, and a rim whose nipples aren't going to pull through or crack. Note the front wheel of the Volagi bike
> 
> Not a concern on a touring or commuter bike, but I doubt many roadies are willing to give up their lighweight 16 or 20 spoke radial front wheels, etc.


you can get 29er wheelsets with discs as low as 24 spokes. Check out the crank brother stuff. About 1800g for the pair. Not too far off from many medium range road wheelsets and these are not even road specific. If UCI approved discs for road all the companies would throw some brain power into them and I am sure they would come down in weight similiar to many road specific sets.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

psycleridr said:


> If UCI approved discs for road


Big if and perhaps pretty far on the back burner. I wouldn't expect a speedy decision.


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## socal.2fast (Aug 10, 2011)

I was looknig at the Cannondale CX with Disc


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Wookiebiker said:


> That's the beauty of disc brakes...you get both...with caliper brakes, you don't always get both and many times you get neither. Disc brakes offer both better power and modulation than caliper brakes...especially in in-climate weather conditions.
> 
> Fork design isn't nearly the issue you make it out to be. There are already forks on the market that do just fine with disc brakes. For the front I'd actually rather see a dual front brake system (one on each side) using smaller discs and smaller pads (dispersing the energy over two systems instead of one)...this would keep fork rotation under control, keep things balanced up front and offer a large amount of both braking and modulation. You could even incorporate the brake calipers into the fork hiding them in it or making them an integral part of the fork.
> 
> Roadies can fight it all they want...but they are coming and they are not too far off. Several systems have already been put out and some were ahead of their time...with that said, their time is coming. When it does...have fun with your caliper brakes, I'll be enjoying a nice set of disc brakes on my road bike



Please name the light, soft riding disc brake compatible fork you speak of.



Have you noticed that in your explanations, you've summerized how easy it is going to be to change over to the following:
1. Get racers to embrace heavier brakes.
2. Get racers to embrace heavier, stiffer forks.
3. Get racers to embrace heavier, less aerodymanic wheels because of the necessity of crossed spokes.

In exchange for their heavier, stiffer riding, poorer cornering, less aerodynamic bike, they are getting brakes that require less effort to operate, but aren't any more effective because they are no more able to lock up skinny tired wheels than the calipers they replace.

Does this sound likely?




lotophage said:


> I know, and indexing was a solution to a problem that didn't exist, and brifters aren't any better than DT levers if you know what you are doing, and Di2 is a total waste of money and a complete dead end...


And which of those require modifications to bicycle or wheel? None! Really? Shocking.

Every major new technology introduced to road bikes since 1985 has essentially been backwards compatible. A 1987 Bridgestone can be outfitted with Di2, Super Record, Enve wheels, carbon threadless forks, external BBs, carbon seat posts and clipless pedals. So does your example demonstrate the viability of making this one (actually: three or four) little change to road bikes, or is it actually a change that would require throwing out a lot of established technology out while trying to find a way to make forks and wheels that worked as well as the old ones, despite the considerable change in braking forces?

But it would be "better", no doubt. Unless you need to change a wheel fast. But who does that on a road race bike?



Last thought - I've seen brake fade on downhill bikes from the metal disc getting too hot for the metal pads. Who's seen a road bike with brake fade? Think that's important, or do road bikes never brake or descend for long periods?


I think we should all get recumbants. Also better than road bikes as they are.


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## socal.2fast (Aug 10, 2011)

I was hoping on getting a cool hybrid bike with Disc's like the Cannondale CX 1 but they are sold out at all the shop and Cannondale is out of stock.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Wookiebiker said:


> Being somebody that owned a road bike with disc brakes (I had them put on a custom Curtlo) I can say i much prefer both the braking power and modulation of discs over rim brakes.
> 
> I love how many people will spout off how they are not needed on road bikes...yet, they have never ridden a road bike with them on one. So in reality they have absolutely "NO" practical experience and have no ability to say one way or another whether they are a benefit or not...it's just a wild and speculative guess on their part. Until you try it, why are you downgrading the use? And, riding a MTB with disc brakes doesn't count!!!
> 
> .


Couldn't agree more there.

I have been riding my Argon18 Platinum roadie that I have added a disc brake to for the last 6,500km (and another 13,500km before that).

I rate it as the best mod done to the bike. Yes, in dry weather, the braking is pretty well even, but i think slightly better. But in the wet, that's when it REALLY makes sense. It only took one emergency stop due to a dumb driver when it had started to rain during my evening ride, and I stopped, whereas with rim brakes and Salmon kool stops, I'd be in hospital. Simple.

I am busily saving up to buy the Volagi (not yet available in Australia - Damn ) as I think it is great.

Don't get me started about weight ....


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## 2Slo4U (Feb 12, 2005)

spade2you said:


> The pros are way faster than us, but they get by without disc brakes by knowing how to descend.....most of the time.


The only flaw in your argument is that the pros are on a course that is closed to traffic. They don't have to worry about boneheads on the road taking them out....well at least till a recent stage of the TDF.

Give me a course that is closed to traffic and I could be pretty darn fast as well.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

tarwheel2 said:


> If regular caliper brakes don't provide you enough stopping power, you're either doing something wrong, your brakes are out of adjustment or need new pads, or you have an old road bike with crappy brakes.


......or you're fat and bought the wrong kind of bike

^This.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Kontact said:


> Please name the light, soft riding disc brake compatible fork you speak of.
> 
> .......<snip> In exchange for their heavier, stiffer riding, poorer cornering, less aerodynamic bike, they are getting brakes that require less effort to operate, but aren't any more effective because they are no more able to lock up skinny tired wheels than the calipers they replace.
> 
> ...


The fork I used was a cheapie alloy 'Mosso' fork (replaced the full carbon Argon18 fork) - difference ? Bugger all. Increased stability due to longer A2C and trail.

Why would a disc fork be 'poorer cornering' ?

Why would I want a "soft riding" fork, when everywhere else is crowuing about increased stiffness ???

Again, it's all personal opinion.

However, I HAVE experienced a road bike with a disc brake, not just postulated about what-ifs and maybes.

I'll stick with them, and am looking fwd to a road bike with discs front and rear. If it weighs a bit more (200 - 400g per bike), meh :thumbsup:


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Len J said:


> Solve the existing problems with a real product, with real carbon forks that are designed to withstand the uniques stresses of disc brakes that still ride comfortably, at something that isn't a weight penalty, is simple to set up and maintain, is not a cost penalty and it's time will come.


510 grams tapered carbon disc forks for 29er mtb application already exist, shorten it and shave a few grams, it's not much heavier than existing road forks. 

Disc brakes are great if you ride in anything outside of sunny conditions, if all your riding is done in sunny dry conditions, stick with calipers, but I'd still prefer disc if I were to do a lot of mountain road riding with lots of descents. 

Oh yeah, I have owned a road bike with disc brakes, I currently own a commuter with disc brakes, touring bike with cantis, and a road bike with caliper, I've experienced them all, disc brakes wins hands down. As for weight issues, weight weenie mtbs are already at around 18 lbs, and you can buy off the shelf 21 lbs mtb easily, and that's a bike with fat tires and suspension, weight is simply not an issue for road bikes with disc brakes.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

MichaelB said:


> I have been riding my Argon18 Platinum roadie that I have added a disc brake to for the last 6,500km (and another 13,500km before that).
> .



Pictures?


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

mrbubbles said:


> Pictures?






The only pics I have atm are the ones from when I installed it.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

ebay Mosso straight rigid fork, cheap and light. I finished building a flat bar road bike and I thought about going that route but decided against it because caliper is plenty powerful enough and I had parts I wanted to use up.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

mrbubbles said:


> 510 grams tapered carbon disc forks for 29er mtb application already exist, shorten it and shave a few grams, it's not much heavier than existing road forks.
> 
> Disc brakes are great if you ride in anything outside of sunny conditions, if all your riding is done in sunny dry conditions, stick with calipers, but I'd still prefer disc if I were to do a lot of mountain road riding with lots of descents.
> 
> Oh yeah, I have owned a road bike with disc brakes, I currently own a commuter with disc brakes, touring bike with cantis, and a road bike with caliper, I've experienced them all, disc brakes wins hands down. As for weight issues, weight weenie mtbs are already at around 18 lbs, and you can buy off the shelf 21 lbs mtb easily, and that's a bike with fat tires and suspension, weight is simply not an issue for road bikes with disc brakes.


So because they exist for MTB's they exist for road bikes?

The point is they are not currently available in a product ready for prime time for road bikes....menaing, comperable weight forks with enough beef to handle discs + low enough weight for serious road riding.

I agree re bad weather BTW...I started my post w "Other than for commuters"

The reality is that the vast majority of riders only ride in rain if they get caught in a flash thunderstorm. As a result, the majority of the benefits are lost on most riders. That's why no one has spent the time and money to push the development of forks and the tech to maintain the benefits while reducing the weight to make them viable.

All of these "they could" posts are nice, but the reality is "they haven't".

Len


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

MichaelB said:


> Why would a disc fork be 'poorer cornering' ?


Because the fork is supposed to flex vertically to absorb variations in the road surface. Ultra stiff bikes and forks don't corner as well because they skip over bumps. Decent road bike forks absorb those bumps allowing the bike to hold the same line without losing momentary traction.

You've jacked up the front of your bike by 3 or 4cm, and slacked your steering angle by a few degrees, changing trail, too - and like it better. And you don't notice any difference in ride quality between your original fork and this one? I don't think everyone is that insensitive to how a road race bike is supposed to ride, handle or feel.


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## me_not_you (May 22, 2010)

mrbubbles said:


> Pictures?


I couldn't resist. Have to show my bike off . I really really like disk brakes, can't imagine anything else on the bike.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

me_not_you said:


> I couldn't resist. Have to show my bike off . I really really like disk brakes, can't imagine anything else on the bike.


Is that the original fork, or the replacement for the broken carbon fiber one?

Those are some amazingly heavy bikes.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

I wouldnt be caught dead riding any of the bikes pictured.


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## me_not_you (May 22, 2010)

Kontact said:


> Is that the original fork, or the replacement for the broken carbon fiber one?
> 
> Those are some amazingly heavy bikes.


It's the steel fork that they replaced the carbon fiber one with, but it is original to the bike. I agree it is not a 'light' bike but who cares? I'm 6'5" 215 and I carry easily another ~20lbs of water/computer/clothes on the thing when I commute back and forth from work. It's a SS too so it is not like I'm going blazing fast. Not sure what I would replace it with to make it 'lighter' or if it even needs it. I ride the thing rain or shine so I need it to be sturdy more than I need it to be light.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

RkFast said:


> I wouldnt be caught dead riding any of the bikes pictured.


Here is a picture of my old Curtlo I had built up with disc brakes.

This bike came in right around 21 pounds with a steel frame, steel fork/steerer tube, Ultrega Components, 32 spoke f/r wheels and 25c tires, pedals, cages and computer.

It would have been very easy to have taken 2 pounds off the bike in several basic areas and with a good light carbon fork designed for disc brakes another pound could be taken off...So 18 pounds would be pretty easy with this bike. With today's components it could be in the 17 pound range pretty easy.

The only reason I sold it was because I got in to racing and wanted something a bit more appropriate for racing with steeper angles...even though this bike wasn't bad overall when it came to quick handling.

You may still not ride it, but it was a "Great" bike that saw many happy miles


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Big if and perhaps pretty far on the back burner. I wouldn't expect a speedy decision.


I think it's on the agenda right after reviewing the level seat rule


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Wookiebiker said:


> Here is a picture of my old Curtlo I had built up with disc brakes.
> 
> This bike came in right around 21 pounds with a steel frame, steel fork/steerer tube, Ultrega Components, 32 spoke f/r wheels and 25c tires, pedals, cages and computer.
> 
> ...


I'm skeptical you could get 4 lbs off that bike with current available equipment.

Len


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

uphillcrash said:


> I have seen CX bikes on the road with disc brakes they say stopping in wet weather is better,as for that seat stay system.... interesting


I have ridden a CX bike with discs on a road with a good climb and long downhill. I have ridden that same road on my road bike. I had much more confidence in the braking with the CX and discs. Call it a feel or modulation or whatever. I just liked it better from a braking standpoint.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Len J said:


> I'm skeptical you could get 4 lbs off that bike with current available equipment.
> 
> Len


Considering you could shave about 1/2 a pound with the pedals alone...it wouldn't be hard to do.

Another pound or so off of the fork (steel fork with steel steerer tube).

SRAM Red components would be another 1/2 - 1 pound...the crank was a boat anchor.

Another 1/2+ pound could have been shed off the wheels pretty easy since they were 32 spoke wheels with a bit older XT hubs and Conti 25c 4-Season tires.

And some frame weight could have been taken off...maybe another 1/4 pound since it was a little big in reality. The bike is basically a 58cm frame, that's a little short height wise. I could have taken 1.5cm off the top tube and 2-3 cm off the head tube...then went with slightly lighter tubes considering it was built for me when I was 240+ pounds.

So...pretty close to 4 pounds when all is said and done...and that's still using a steel frame. Go with today's carbon wonder frames and another pound could be taken off pretty easy.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Len J said:


> So because they exist for MTB's they exist for road bikes?
> 
> The point is they are not currently available in a product ready for prime time for road bikes....menaing, comperable weight forks with enough beef to handle discs + low enough weight for serious road riding.


They are ready for prime time. 

Something like this was built 2 years ago.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Another thing, all this BS about weight is just that, BS. 10 years ago road bikes were around 20lbs give or take, entry level road bike still weighs that much today. 



Kontact said:


> I don't think everyone is that insensitive to how a road race bike is supposed to ride, handle or feel.


Or maybe it's all in your head and you don't want to adopt new stuff. I can understand purists, like the vintage crowd still riding cup and cone bbs and single pivot brakes on 80s bike. Nothing wrong with that, but the new stuff is better, deal with it.


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## tiflow_21 (Nov 21, 2005)

I find this argument rather funny, reminds me of when MTBs were transitioning to disc brakes. There were ~5 years where people were still die hard rim brake fans due to weight/complexity/tuning/etc. Almost all of those die hard fans have since moved to disc brakes on their MTB.

People are always resistant to change. Personally I have discs on all of my MTBs and my cross bike. There's no question in my mind that discs are superior to rim brakes. I can't count the number of times I've been riding in the winter on my cross bike with others running rim brakes having all kinds of trouble. The cross bike with discs has all the modulation and power I'd ever need, while the guys still running rim brakes have all kinds of trouble when conditions aren't perfect. Even on dry pavement I'd rather have discs for the power and modulation they provide. Sure they can lock up a wheel, but can also be modulated very easily. I think all the arguments against discs are tired and worn out. If discs were actually designed for road bikes weight wouldn't be an issue. Instead of having 160mm rotors a road bike might have 120mm rotors and lighter/less powerful calipers. All current disc brakes are likely overbuilt for road bike needs, but that could easily change once manufacturers start getting on board.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

mrbubbles said:


> They are ready for prime time.
> 
> Something like this was built 2 years ago.


Again...oversized, over rigid over weight fork.

Tech is not there yet for road racing.

len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

tiflow_21 said:


> I find this argument rather funny, reminds me of when MTBs were transitioning to disc brakes. There were ~5 years where people were still die hard rim brake fans due to weight/complexity/tuning/etc. Almost all of those die hard fans have since moved to disc brakes on their MTB.
> 
> People are always resistant to change. Personally I have discs on all of my MTBs and my cross bike. There's no question in my mind that discs are superior to rim brakes. I can't count the number of times I've been riding in the winter on my cross bike with others running rim brakes having all kinds of trouble. The cross bike with discs has all the modulation and power I'd ever need, while the guys still running rim brakes have all kinds of trouble when conditions aren't perfect. Even on dry pavement I'd rather have discs for the power and modulation they provide. Sure they can lock up a wheel, but can also be modulated very easily. I think all the arguments against discs are tired and worn out. *If discs were actually designed for road bikes weight wouldn't be an issue. Instead of having 160mm rotors a road bike might have 120mm rotors and lighter/less powerful calipers. All current disc brakes are likely overbuilt for road bike needs, but that could easily change once manufacturers start getting on board*.


See bolded....that's the point...no one is actually designing them because a.) they are not needed for the majority of road riders, b.) they are not required for road racing. & c.) they are not approved by UCI.

We can live in the should be's and might be's all we want, but the solutions don't wxist now.

Len


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Len J said:


> Again...oversized, over rigid over weight fork.
> 
> Tech is not there yet for road racing.
> 
> len






















*And news flash for you, not everyone is racing or cares about UCI rules!! * :idea:





.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

MoPho said:


> [*And news flash for you, not everyone is racing or cares about UCI rules!! * :idea:


The reality is that only about 5% (maybe) of those that ride bikes actually race...so the whole weight argument again is irrelevant other than those wanting to impress their friends with a scale


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## tiflow_21 (Nov 21, 2005)

Len J said:


> See bolded....that's the point...no one is actually designing them because a.) they are not needed for the majority of road riders, b.) they are not required for road racing. & c.) they are not approved by UCI.
> 
> We can live in the should be's and might be's all we want, but the solutions don't wxist now.
> 
> Len


Many things road riders use are NOT necessities or requirements, including carbon wheels which are all the rage right now. Look at all the relatively slow triathletes and road riders on $10k+ wonder bikes... do they need it? No. That's not the point.

In terms of UCI, just last year they approved discs for cross racing. Things can and will change with what is allowed in road racing, especially if there's the possibility for improvement in safety.

I'm not sure I understand your point on the parts not being available right now. Is that your main argument as to why discs are never going to make sense for a road bike? Seems pretty short sighted to me. I'm all for the development of new and better equipment, not getting stuck on what is currently available.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Len J said:


> Again...oversized, over rigid over weight fork.


There are carbon disc forks coming in lighter than caliper only carbon forks with alloy steerers. Oversized and overweight is bunk. 

Stick to claiming that forks you haven't ridden is over-rigid, at least you'll have some credibility there, never mind that those so called "rigidity" can be overcome by simply using different bar tapes, tires, psi level, heck, even vibration dampening carbon fiber handlebars!



Wookiebiker said:


> The reality is that only about 5% (maybe) of those that ride bikes actually race...so the whole weight argument again is irrelevant other than those wanting to impress their friends with a scale


And if that extra 2lbs slow you down as a rider, I'm sorry to say, you must suck as a rider, go take up scrabbling or bingo.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Kontact said:


> Because the fork is supposed to flex vertically to absorb variations in the road surface. Ultra stiff bikes and forks don't corner as well because they skip over bumps. Decent road bike forks absorb those bumps allowing the bike to hold the same line without losing momentary traction.
> 
> You've jacked up the front of your bike by 3 or 4cm, and slacked your steering angle by a few degrees, changing trail, too - and like it better. And you don't notice any difference in ride quality between your original fork and this one? I don't think everyone is that insensitive to how a road race bike is supposed to ride, handle or feel.


If forks "flexed vertically" they would be so noodly, they wouldn't be good handling. Reality is that most of the roqad vibration aborption is by the tyres, bar tape and body.

The ACTUAL difference is that the front of the bike was raised by 25mm (not 3 or 4 cm ), I acknowledged that the angles and trail changed making the bike more stable which suited ME.

Yep, I couldn't feel an appeciable difference between the two. 

But as YOU HAVENT RIDDEN ONE, how would you know.

Sooooo many misinformed opinions, thoughts and myths.

I am happy with what I have, and it works for me. QED. :aureola:

I want a road version of the MTB carbon forks yes (correct A2C length), and weight is not a real issue for me, as is aero, as is every other bit of nonsense raised. I do ride in the rain sometimes, because that is what happens. I ride in the city where there are lots of stupid drivers, so brakes that work in the wet are important.

I'm an early adopter of this technoilogy and proud of it. Naysayers, so and complain in another thread. :thumbsup:


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> Another thing, all this BS about weight is just that, BS. 10 years ago road bikes were around 20lbs give or take, entry level road bike still weighs that much today.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe it's all in your head and you don't want to adopt new stuff. I can understand purists, like the vintage crowd still riding cup and cone bbs and single pivot brakes on 80s bike. Nothing wrong with that, but the new stuff is better, deal with it.


Frankly, this is ridiculous. It isn't that you guys are arguing that the ride issues with stiff forks can't be fixed, you're arguing that fork ride chararcteristics on racing bikes don't matter!



> If forks "flexed vertically" they would be so noodly, they wouldn't be good handling.


Hillarious. Forks don't flex. 

Here's someone else to disagree with:
Rinard Fork Deflection Test
What I referred to as "vertical" he calls "forward deflection", the way forks flex forward under weight.
Another guy who doesn't know anything about forks and ride:
Spectrum-Cycles


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Kontact said:


> Frankly, this is ridiculous. It isn't that you guys are arguing that the ride issues with stiff forks can't be fixed, you're arguing that fork ride chararcteristics on racing bikes don't matter!


From the various bikes I have (and I have had several full carbon forks, aluminum forks, steel forks, suspension forks), the ride "characteristic" is a bunch of empirical baloney. 

The ride "characteristic" of a fork is not something I think about when I go on a ride. And your comments about forks being too stiff is funny, newer road bikes are coming with taper forks in the 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inch diameters for stiffness (and I have one), and when I jump between bikes with 1-1/8 forks (or even 1 inch threaded forks) to 1-1/2, stiffness is not something I think about. 

Your other comment about bikes here being too heavy is knee-slapping hilarious. Anything under 20 lbs is light, not weight weenie light but very light compared to the average bike. Complaints about lightness without taking the application into consideration is foolhardy, want an ultra light disc brake road bike in the 15 lb range? Can be done easily, disc wheels can be built at around 1300 grams no problem. But complaining about city style road bikes for urban riding being heavy, or a bike for clyde being heavy cause they're not 15 lbs? That's just being stupid.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Kontact said:


> Frankly, this is ridiculous. It isn't that you guys are arguing that the ride issues with stiff forks can't be fixed, you're arguing that fork ride chararcteristics on racing bikes don't matter!


<sigh>

No I am not. For *ME*, again I repeat, for *ME*, *what I have is what suits me, my riding terrain and level*. I, along with many people don't race.

Will the UCI allow discs for road riding, probably not for 5 years (or maybe never who knows with that mob), but the development in the CX ranks will either help it or hinder it. 

Too early to tell yet, but for ME, discs work and I will have them whilst they are available.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> From the various bikes I have (and I have had several full carbon forks, aluminum forks, steel forks, suspension forks), the ride "characteristic" is a bunch of empirical baloney.
> 
> The ride "characteristic" of a fork is not something I think about when I go on a ride. And your comments about forks being too stiff is funny, newer road bikes are coming with taper forks in the 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inch diameters for stiffness (and I have one), and when I jump between bikes with 1-1/8 forks (or even 1 inch threaded forks) to 1-1/2, stiffness is not something I think about.
> 
> Your other comment about bikes here being too heavy is knee-slapping hilarious. Anything under 20 lbs is light, not weight weenie light but very light compared to the average bike. Complaints about lightness without taking the application into consideration is foolhardy, want an ultra light disc brake road bike in the 15 lb range? Can be done easily, disc wheels can be built at around 1300 grams no problem. But complaining about city style road bikes for urban riding being heavy, or a bike for clyde being heavy cause they're not 15 lbs? That's just being stupid.


Duder, I'm not personally complaining that something is light or heavy, I'm telling you that the high end road bike industry revolves around a constant refinement of ride vs. weight, and you are saying that consumers and racers are both going to change over to worrying about braking instead? Why? So at the end of their slower, harsher bike ride they can stop better in the driveway? When has road bike brake performance ever been an issue?

Your comments about steerer tubes have no application in this discussion. Forks are supposed to be as stiff as possible in the steerer, and flex in the blades. This is just another one of those comments that give me a hint of the backgrounds of the people I'm talking with.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

tiflow_21 said:


> Many things road riders use are NOT necessities or requirements, including carbon wheels which are all the rage right now. Look at all the relatively slow triathletes and road riders on $10k+ wonder bikes... do they need it? No. That's not the point.
> 
> In terms of UCI, just last year they approved discs for cross racing. Things can and will change with what is allowed in road racing, especially if there's the possibility for improvement in safety.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand your point on the parts not being available right now. Is that your main argument as to why discs are never going to make sense for a road bike? Seems pretty short sighted to me. I'm all for the development of new and better equipment, not getting stuck on what is currently available.


Here is my main point. The majority of dollars in the road cycling market are driven by pro road racing and the equipment they ride. It may be stupid, you and I may not agree with it but it is the reality. Because the majority of development dollars chase this market, dollars directed to products not used in pro racing are limited. 

Recognizing those things, why would anyone expect disc brakes to suddenly be the norm in road bikes? It's a wish, not a reality. 

Couple all this with the fact that the majority of riders don't ride in the conditions where the braking benefits are most manifest and it's chasing a dream. 

When I build my next custom all weather commuter, I'll consider discs......and my personal decision will be based on availability of wheels and balanced forks so I'm not opposed to them personally for specific uses. Rather my posts in this thread have been mostly directed at getting people to accept the reality of how products are developed and bought in the bike industry. 

Hope that is clearer. 

Len


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Kontact said:


> Duder, I'm not personally complaining that something is light or heavy, I'm telling you that the high end road bike industry revolves around a constant refinement of ride vs. weight, and you are saying that consumers and racers are both going to change over to worrying about braking instead? Why? So at the end of their slower, harsher bike ride they can stop better in the driveway? When has road bike brake performance ever been an issue?
> 
> Your comments about steerer tubes have no application in this discussion. Forks are supposed to be as stiff as possible in the steerer, and flex in the blades. This is just another one of those comments that give me a hint of the backgrounds of the people I'm talking with.


Most consumers aren't racers, racers also don't have the same application as most consumers. Consumers and racers change based on how successful marketing is directed towards them and who has the most successive wins in major races. Companies will sell disc brake road bikes to consumers cause it makes sense, it's easy to sell to simpletons, which most consumers are. 

And disc brakes equal slower and harsher ride? Holy crap, what's harsher ride? Caliper brakes don't slow you down? Both of those points you've made are just stupid, and clearly you are kicking and screaming about something that's new and you haven't used, that's the same stance purists have taken when integrated shift levers came to market, some innovations are simply better, get use to it.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Inside the Tour with John Wilcockson: What caused the crashes?



Johan Bruyneel said:


> In offering one possible solution to the problem, Bruyneel said, “I think it’s time to start to consider some different equipment. If you look at the bikes, they’ve become lighter and lighter, so why not consider disc brakes? They’re heavier, but I think it would be perfectly possible. And discs definitely brake a lot better. I think with the light equipment and carbon rims (regular brakes) are sometimes a problem in the rain.”





----

Bike Radar Volagi review



Bike Radar said:


> At their most basic level, road bikes only have to perform a very limited set of tasks: accelerate, roll along, turn and stop. Most companies focus primarily on the first three attributes and the metrics that affect them (stiffness, weight, geometry, ride quality) but upstart outfit Volagi have pushed the boundaries a bit further by including disc brakes on their Liscio endurance machine.
> 
> Are they necessary? Hardly. But after spending a few months on them, it's hard to go back to the status quo. That Volagi have managed to integrate them into a satisfying all-day road cruiser that's perfectly suited to how most roadies actually ride is all the more impressive. In all likelihood, you're only going to see more of this sort of rig in the years ahead.
> 
> ...



.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

RkFast said:


> I wouldnt be caught dead riding any of the bikes pictured.


Okay. How about undead?


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> Most consumers aren't racers, racers also don't have the same application as most consumers. Consumers and racers change based on how successful marketing is directed towards them and who has the most successive wins in major races. Companies will sell disc brake road bikes to consumers cause it makes sense, it's easy to sell to simpletons, which most consumers are.
> 
> And disc brakes equal slower and harsher ride? Holy crap, what's harsher ride? Caliper brakes don't slow you down? Both of those points you've made are just stupid, and clearly you are kicking and screaming about something that's new and you haven't used, that's the same stance purists have taken when integrated shift levers came to market, some innovations are simply better, get use to it.


I would caution you to keep this discussion about an inanimate object civil.


Harsher ride - the thing about the reinforced fork for discs, remember?

Caliper brakes do slow you down. So do discs. Which is the problem marketing them on race bikes (which drive the road market). I don't know what you mis-read.


I am entirely agnostic about brakes. I am trying to share with you an idea: That current road bike preferences for fork design would have to change quite a bit to allow the safe use of discs, and the changes are not something most roadies are going to love. 

Clearly, there is more than one kind of "road bike", and in the categories that put less emphasis on ride quality, handling, climbing and weight - like commuters - discs are already popular. But for the kind of skinny tire, ride fast and hard type of bike that has fueled the road bike boom since the '90s (or '70s). Discs are fine, but assuming that they apply to road race bikes because they improved other bikes is a large assumption - one that you seem to want to make without any consideration, or even belief, of factors outside stopping the wheel.

Ride matters. Weight matters. Discs screw with both of those. My or your personal feelings don't change that.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Kontact said:


> I would caution you to keep this discussion about an inanimate object civil.
> 
> 
> Harsher ride - the thing about the reinforced fork for discs, remember?
> ...




Sorry, but the existence of the Volagi debunks all of your arguments (read review I just posted). It may not be a full tilt aggressive race bike but that leap is not a big one for a company to make 

.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MoPho said:


> *And news flash for you, not everyone is racing or cares about UCI rules!! * :idea:
> 
> .


The USAC really doesn't enforce a whole lot of rules religiously until you get to the high profile races, but try showing up to a USAC crit with a rear disc wheel and aerobars. They'll enforce that one. Trust me. Now, if you're on a TT bike and your saddle is too far forward, they're not going to check that at the next ITT. 

If they're deemed illegal, I wouldn't count on the guy next to ya in the race ratting on ya.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

From what I have heard from a couple of OEM engineers is that they are very close to bringing to market a disc brake that will be preferable to road caliper brakes on road race bikes. These are not the discs that are currently on offer now (BB7, BB5, R-505R... etc), but something very road race bike specific that are designed to allow greater speed control at higher speeds for improved safety and handling. That is what the high talk around town is at least. These are not going to be for dirty environments like MTB or CX.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Sorry, but the existence of the Volagi debunks all of your arguments (read review I just posted). It may not be a full tilt aggressive race bike but that leap is not a big one for a company to make
> 
> .


So my points about ride feel and shock dampening plus weight were debunked by 



> Ride & handling: Solid marks on the frameset but it's all about the brakes


Okay, then.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Kontact said:


> .....Ride matters. Weight matters. Discs screw with both of those. My or your personal feelings don't change that.


So, have you actually RIDDEN any of these solutions that you dismiss at all on a ROAD bike ?

It seems that you have all the answers about what your opinion is, and ready to rubbish those with actual experience ? You haven't stated anywhere whether you have ridden a disc equipped road bike, only postulated issues.

From the Volagui review by BikeRadar (snipped - my highlighting)

_*Simply put, the Avid BB7 road brakes are flat-out brilliant as compared to conventional rim brakes – but not in the sense of absolute power, as most people assume.

No, the main advantage is modulation of that power.*_

_*Overall: Great choice for mountainous or wet regions
Skeptics will undoubtedly point out that disc brakes add weight to road bikes and at least for now, that's true – but not to the vast degree that some are claiming. Regardless, riders living in hillier or consistently wetter areas will still benefit from the Liscio's far more controllable, consistent and safer stoppers and the bike overall is good enough that the brakes aren't just a standalone gimmick. We've heard the arguments before – remember V-brakes? – but read our lips: this is just the beginning.*_


@ Dajianshan - can you share any more info - I presume the new system is cable operated, or is there a OTS hydraulic version ?

Any idea of what the timing will be ?


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Kontact said:


> So my points about ride feel and shock dampening plus weight were debunked by
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, then.




:mad2: Umm, the point was that bike is neither heavy nor harsh as you claim disc brake bikes "have to be" and the article confirms what we've been telling you all along about brake modulation


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MoPho said:


> modulation


Modulation.....arrrrrghhhhhh!!!!!!!


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

MichaelB said:


> So, have you actually RIDDEN any of these solutions that you dismiss at all on a ROAD bike ?
> 
> It seems that you have all the answers about what your opinion is, and ready to rubbish those with actual experience ? You haven't stated anywhere whether you have ridden a disc equipped road bike, only postulated issues.
> 
> ...


No, I haven't rode a Volagi - no one on this thread has. I have ridden road bikes with discs - Civia (which we sell) and a couple of other bikes with stiff steel forks. I have yet to run across anyone I ride with or who comes into the shop who's put a cyclocross fork on a road frame. Our shop sells a lot of bikes based on the strength of test rides - week long, take home test rides. We have long discussions with people about ride and handling issues that some of you are treating like urban legends, but are actually quite important to people who ride thousands of miles a year.

I didn't say it was impossible to make a nice riding disc fork - but there are only so many people who make high end forks, and none of them make such a thing. Are they developing them? Not that I hear from industry people, but maybe. But my experience with building, fixing and selling bikes, including disc equipped ones, is that the way road forks work and the way discs work are not complementary, and that is one of several factors that have to be addressed before the 2013 Madone has discs.


Question for you: Have you road many bikes with the best of the carbon forks like Enve or Serotta?


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I wish I could say more, but I am not privy to the details. I did hear something about integrating the hydraulic cylinder into the hoods. It sounded as though the OEM was shopping the technology around, but it had been through real world testing. I was told explicitly that is was ROAD RACE and no good for CX.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Dajianshan said:


> I wish I could say more, but I am not privy to the details. I did hear something about integrating the hydraulic cylinder into the hoods. It sounded as though the OEM was shopping the technology around, but it had been through real world testing. *I was told explicitly that is was ROAD RACE and no good for CX*.




Fair enough, looking forward to hearing more as it becomes available.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Well... I have had the chance to chat with a few folks... who may have seen a schematic diagram here or there... ahem!... and there is a whole slew of hydraulic disc action coming in 2012 and 2013. 

I just also saw a prototype for a new hydraulic road system that fits under the stem. Seen that before, but this is lighter and more elegant. 

The other thing is that a certain big groupset manufacturer is rumored *cough* to be two clicks away from offering a hydraulic disc option to their top road groupset... with cylinders built directly into the hoods. Something like 120mm discs or smaller.

There will also be hydraulic disc brakes AND later rim brakes with the cylinder completely integrated into the brake at the wheel. 

It looks like the big manufacturers are all moving toward hydraulic braking in the future.


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## Alkan (Jun 30, 2011)

It'll happen once people do races with steep descents and they gain 5 seconds per hairpin curve from rapid deceleration capability.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

Dajianshan said:


> There will also be hydraulic disc brakes AND later rim brakes with the cylinder completely integrated into the brake at the wheel.


To my mind, one of the major advantages of hydraulic brakes is the use of fluid instead of cable to transfer the braking power *from levers to brake*: no more cable friction for a vague feel when braking.


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## j.king (Mar 23, 2005)

Dajianshan said:


> Well... I have had the chance to chat with a few folks... who may have seen a schematic diagram here or there... ahem!... and there is a whole slew of hydraulic disc action coming in 2012 and 2013.
> 
> I just also saw a prototype for a new hydraulic road system that fits under the stem. Seen that before, but this is lighter and more elegant.
> 
> ...


That is fantastic news, thanks for sharing :thumbsup:

Personally I can't wait for disc brakes to come to road bikes. I'll be eagerly waiting.


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## NateHawk (Aug 19, 2011)

I am in the process of building up a road bike with disc brakes and a belt drive.

I'm having a builder mod an old steel Trek frame. I'm going to keep cost down by using some Avids.

But after riding discs on my mtb since 2003, I am absolutely a convert to disc brakes. I strongly prefer the modulation and low maintenance over rim brakes. Add to those all the other benefits - wet weather performance, more power, long pad life, no wear to the rim, no catastrophic tire blowouts from heat (rare, but it can happen), etc.


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

AlanE said:


> I came upon the website for Volagi bikes (Volagi | The Will To Go) and was intrigued. They don't have any dealers in the northeast, so I was wondering what other brands of road bikes with disc brakes are available..
> 
> And of course, I would be interested in other peoples opinions and experience with disc brakes. Other than the novelty of it, are there really any advantages? Disadvantages seem to be difficulty of maintenence and lack of availability of compatible wheelsets. But it looks cool.
> 
> And what do you think about those floating seat-stays? Again, somewhat of a novelty, but as they say "if it ain't broke, it will be soon"


I don't really care on my road bike as I feel I have enough stopping power. Maybe if they were not as heavy I would consider them because of the no rim wear factor.

But I would be really interested on my commuter, especially on bad weather. With a disc brake setup I could roll a cord on the wheel when it is snowing. I've seen people do that as a DIY snow chain on cargo bikes and it was very efficient. And the dirt created by the rim brake pads on the fork when it is raining is just disgusting. I just can't afford to wash my commuter every day.


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## Kret21 (Aug 20, 2011)

Disc brakes are better in wet weather and if they are hydraulic, it's possibe to modulate them a bit better. How often are you riding your carbon road bike in the rain? I have Tektro rim brakes on my roadie and I can lock the rear tire at full speed so why would I need discs?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Kret21 said:


> Disc brakes are better in wet weather and if they are hydraulic, it's possibe to modulate them a bit better. How often are you riding your carbon road bike in the rain? I have Tektro rim brakes on my roadie and I can lock the rear tire at full speed so why would I need discs?


Locking brakes is an indication of loss of control, do you think people descending 50+ mph are locking their brakes? I'm not an advocate of discs for the road but with the move to carbon rims it's going to happen eventually because braking power is for sure compromised in the wet on a carbon rim. My carbon mountain bike with carbon clinchers and disc brakes is under 19lbs and lighter than anything I rode in the late 90s with v-brakes. The brakes work better as well.


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## dhtucker4 (Jul 7, 2004)

The UCI will allow disc brakes on cyclocross this year, but not on road bikes... The weight limit (6.8 kilograms = 14.98 pounds) set by the UCI was over TEN YEARS ago... Meanwhile, another bonehead move by the UCI was not to allow derailleurs (it happened in the late 1920's or early 1930's) while racing. 

Disc brakes on sports cars are made out of carbon fiber (cheaper than titanium), I see no reason why mechanical disc brakes (Avid) should be adequate for any road bike. We'll see about hydraulics as soon as the UCI allows disc brakes for road cyclist races. That won't happen soon, probably about ten years from now.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

dhtucker4 said:


> The UCI will allow disc brakes on cyclocross this year, but not on road bikes... The weight limit (6.8 kilograms = 14.98 pounds) set by the UCI was over TEN YEARS ago... Meanwhile, another bonehead move by the UCI was not to allow derailleurs (it happened in the late 1920's or early 1930's) while racing.
> 
> Disc brakes on sports cars are made out of carbon fiber (cheaper than titanium), I see no reason why mechanical disc brakes (Avid) should be adequate for any road bike. We'll see about hydraulics as soon as the UCI allows disc brakes for road cyclist races. That won't happen soon, probably about ten years from now.


Titanium is a terrible material for rotors, it has nothing to do with cost.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks for the update Dajianshan - sounds promising.

I presume the "two clicks" reference is to SRAM ?

Either way, I'll be riding my 2011 Kona Honky Inc in 99% of the occasions when I ride - hills, commute and along the beach front, and saving the rim braked Cinelli for those special spring/summer days in the hills.

Why o why do people keep harping on about weight (yes I know it is a little more atm) yet are quite happy to carry 2 full water bottles and all sorts of gels etc with them on a ride :mad2:

Oh well, those that are converted understand the benefits, not ionly in the dry, but at other times as well :thumbsup:


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## cntcasey (Jul 27, 2014)

Road - KTM BIKE INDUSTRIES

This bike has through axles and flat mounts I wish Giant and other companies would make their road disc brake bikes with through axles and flat mounts. 

Is this the future of road bikes? Is KTM paving the way?


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