# 2013 Devolution of Roubaix Pro Frameset...



## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

It is with a heavy heart I pass along a bit of bad news about the new Roubaix Pro frameset. Some know I built up a 2012 Roubaix Pro with Campy and now have about 3K miles on it. I has been the best bike I have owned and I have been lucky to own several nice road bikes. I bought the bike purposefully for its long head tube and chose the Pro not only for its nice and stiff 10r carbon...but also because it had an "english threaded BB". Well that is gone for 2013 which for Campyphiles is a bitter disappointment because Campy cranks were designed initally and work best with a threaded BB. It will take time to sort out exactly what BB's will be available on the new bikes. Most that are students of this forum know that the Sworks bike have been an abomination with Specialized version of narrow PF-30. We will see if the new Sworks bikes for 2013 retain this. Scouring the newly released bike specs on Specialized website...they do state a slight verbage difference between Pro and Sworks BB description but as usual their description is VERY vague and unclear. Pictorially, the BB's appear identical between the bikes...only for the Sworks bikes, the bearings are touted as ceramic.

A further kick in the teeth aside from the passing of threaded BB? The Roubaix Pro frameset has had a MAJOR price jump. See below. Now...and no doubt due to strategizing internally at Specialized, they have moved the Pro frameset price closer to the Sworks. This will induce many to spend the extra 500 dollars for a notch stiffer carbon Sworks frameset whereas before, many opted to save the grand and get the Pro. The Pro is still the stiffest bike I have ridden...to me Sworks stiffness is something that would only detract from ride compliancy as I can't flex the Pro and am 185#.

I will conclude by saying, no doubt the new frames are outstanding. But I believe with price jump and Specialized discontinuation of the threaded BB, the Pro frameset has stepped backward. We will see if Specialized abandoned their PF30 46mm ID through bore carbon shell construction on the Sworks bikes which is awful all told and only made workable by inserting it with an aluminum C-bear sleeve...effectively regressing it to a_ threaded BB _with added weight.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

With the SL4 update, they've aligned it with the Tarmac Pro frame-set in terms of price and spec. This will be the aluminum OSBB not the carbon version which is S-Works only.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

ukbloke said:


> With the SL4 update, they've aligned it with the Tarmac Pro frame-set in terms of price and spec. This will be the aluminum OSBB not the carbon version which is S-Works only.


As to your first sentence, I say too bad.
In response to your second sentence, I guess we will see. On Spesh's website that state the Roubaix Pro is an 'integrated sealed bearing' OS BB...which comports to Rkfast's find that Specialized has a new integrated Bearing/delrin bushing one piece construction. So we will see what the actual BB's turn out to be for both the Pro and Sworks...it is not clear Pro Roubaix/Tarmac is BB-30 and possibly they are both the same for 2013.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

It seems they are changing these damned BBs left and right trying to find a solution that lasts and is quiet. 

I have one...its called a THREADED BB.

[\rant]


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

RkFast said:


> It seems they are changing these damned BBs left and right trying to find a solution that lasts and is quiet.
> 
> I have one...its called a THREADED BB.
> 
> [\rant]


Completely agree. Specialized has taken something that isn't broken aka an english threaded BB I have owned on several bikes and broken it. BB-30 maybe marginal if loctited...but Specialized version of PF-30 is horrible. Plastic bushings is ridiculous.
Astounding really. It seems like every three months Specialized is changing the installation procedure. What does this suggest? They are doing their product development on 'their customers'. Products are failing and they are scampering to keep warranty low.

I can just hear the discussions between engineering and marketing inside Specialized....my background is product development.

Engineering Mgr.: Our PF-30 design is weak and we are getting constant failures in the field.

Marketing Mgr: You better figure out how to make it work. We bank on product diversity and want our flagship Sworks bikes to have a 'special BB'

Its special all right. It sucks.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

They have the same text for the Tarmac Pro frame-set and I would expect that they did not change the carbon molds since they were new last year. It seems most likely that they both have the Al OSBB which Specialized have been using for the last ~5 years, and you may well be right that they are using a new BB/bushing component.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Im OK with it at the moment. Mine's quiet and working well. The Delrin cups are holding fine and I think they are easily replaceable if/when they give up the ghost. If I can get 2-3 years out of them, thats fine, considering that seems to be the lifespan of Hollowtech II bbs as well, both road and MTB. 

But with that said....yeah....I agree with everything else youre saying.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

ukbloke said:


> They have the same text for the Tarmac Pro frame-set and I would expect that they did not change the carbon molds since they were new last year. It seems most likely that they both have the Al OSBB which Specialized have been using for the last ~5 years, and you may well be right that they are using a new BB/bushing component.


Agree...would make most sense that both Pro bikes are BB-30.
What is unclear is...if Spesh abandoned their narrow version of PF-30 for Sworks bikes or...they changed the construction like Mads talked about in another thread.

We will have to wait and see I guess what is available.

PS: in 2011 Sworks bikes were available in limited quantities with a threaded BB. Absolute shame this is no longer the case.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Im OK with it at the moment. Mine's quiet and working well. The Delrin cups are holding fine and I think they are easily replaceable if/when they give up the ghost. If I can get 2-3 years out of them, thats fine, considering that seems to be the lifespan of Hollowtech II bbs as well, both road and MTB.
> 
> But with that said....yeah....I agree with everything else youre saying.


To me...and I have developed products with Delrin...Delrin is just wrong for a bearing cup...its soft and lubrice with low yield strength. So you end up with low durability life and frequent replacement which is needless.

What I am going to do is enjoy my fantastic Roubaix SL3 Pro with threaded BB and put 20K miles on it over the next few years with little BB maintenance and wait for the next two evolutions of BB design...which will probably regress back to a threaded interface at some point...likely an combination of BB-30 with threads for low Q-factor. The best way to make a Sworks bike work is to press in an aluminum sleeve which effectively turns it into a threaded BB...ridiculous.


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## George M (Sep 25, 2008)

FWIW the screwed in BB or outboard cups like some call it, is one of the reasons I bought the bike I did. I've read that that the creaking on a lot of new bikes, are caused by the pressed in BB. I did ask about it and I think it was Trek that has an adapter that fits inside the pressed in bb. I still don't know if I would go that route, because you still have the pressed in BB, so I think you would have the same problem, with the creaking sound. Not to mention, pulling the crank every time you get caught in the rain, to dry it out.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

My biggest concern is whether the carbon OSBB in a particular frame could deform over time to be significantly out of spec. If the recommendation is then to essentially bond the delrin cups in place, and the delrin cups themselves deform over time, then there goes the longevity of your $4K frame. It'll be interesting to see how Specialized deals with those warranty claims.

Personally I'll wait until Shimano makes the call on the next road bike BB standard. The current standard has been around a long time, and many alternatives have come and gone in that timeframe.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

ukbloke said:


> My biggest concern is whether the carbon OSBB in a particular frame could deform over time to be significantly out of spec. If the recommendation is then to essentially bond the delrin cups in place, and the delrin cups themselves deform over time, then there goes the longevity of your $4K frame. It'll be interesting to see how Specialized deals with those warranty claims.
> 
> Personally I'll wait until Shimano makes the call on the next road bike BB standard. The current standard has been around a long time, and many alternatives have come and gone in that timeframe.


I will share with you some thoughts as I have worked with the materials discussed in development. UKbloke...you have nothing to be concerned about relative to the BB shell with 46mm ID through bore hole over the life of the frameset. The carbon shell is perhaps the strongest and most robust component of the frame...has to be to withstand the greatest forces imparted...rider weight and torque from riders feet with a moment arm aka crank arms. However...delrin sandwiched between steel bearings and unyielding ball of carbon aka the carbon shell willl be sacrificial throughout the life of the frame. This is entirely needless. There is no reason for a delrin bushing as a connection between bearing outer race and ID of carbon shell. The only reason is preserve the integrity of the carbon BB shell during service...but what good is it since the soft bushings take a compression set from the first pedal stroke and therefore require contant service as attested on this forum and many others? Think for a second how radically different the interface between BB30 and PF30 is. They are night and day. BB30 by contrast has very few reports of failures. Where does the BB30 present problems? Creaking due to bearing outer races sliding relative to inset alloy races bonded to the carbon shell that define BB30. PF30 by contrast is a jelly sandwich...oh it may mitigate creaking by virtue of a softer and more lubrice interface aka Delrin...but Delrin by nature will quickly yield over time and compress.

Both Shimano and Campy are taking a 'wait and see' approach to BB evolution. Neither have budged and released a BB30 crank design and for good reason. If you got all their engineers in a room and took a vote it would be pretty much unanamous that PF30 stinks, BB30 is marginal and only that if you use loctite....and a threaded BB has always been the most reliable...the basis for both their crank designs.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Yeah, as far as I knew, delrin was used as a bushing material because it's pretty damn solid, but still deflects a little bit. Bushings went from soft to hard: rubber < polyurethane < delrin < aluminum. I would think specialized would realize this and throw aluminum bearing cups in the carbon shell instead of a softer delrin. Like you said roadworthy, these things are taking the entire brunt of the force put forth by the rider, so they will wear out rather quickly.

That being said, if you read carefully in the spec sheet, it mentioned ceramic speed bottom brackets being used. Searching their site, it looks like they make a press fit bottom bracket with aluminum cups and ceramic bearings. Lets hope this is the route they take and that maybe they start sending these BB's out to replace the delrin cups in older frames (like mine...)


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

roadworthy said:


> I will share with you some thoughts as I have worked with the materials discussed in development. ...


Very interesting, thank you!

As you say using Al cups will eventually wear the carbon sleeve. This is similar to a situation with Trek Madone frames (BB90?) where the bearings are pressed directly into the carbon frame. Eventually the frame wears and the press-fit becomes a press-wobble requiring more and stronger loctite until you get to the point where Trek agrees to warranty the frame!

Specialized need a combination of the properties of delrin and Al. Perhaps they could have a design where the inner part of the cup that interfaces to the frame's BB shell is delrin, but is sufficiently narrow so that its deformation over time does not contribute significantly to lateral play. The remainder of the cup could be aluminum. The two parts could themselves be press-fit and independently replaced.

This seems like a typical Goldilocks strategy for Specialized - flip from one extreme to the other, then settle on something in the middle!


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Well you answered my question from another thread. There I complained about the huge price jump the lastest 'Pro" Tarmac went through since I was thinking of swapping from my 2009 Roubaix frame with Campy to a tarmac. they recently lowered the tarmac pro to 2850.00 same as the Roubaix but still when you look at bikes in the same category it's not pretty. My other concern was if this jump would carry over to the Roubaix and it did. you can now get the following cheaper...

Cervelo S3,
Wilier Imperiale and Grand Tourismo
Colnago CLX 3.0
2013 Trek Madone 5 series
Bianchi Sempre AND Infinto

Specialized has seem to have forgotten the importance of the 2000 price point. Odd because you think they would stick to it harder in a recession.

I like Specialized's stuff but one of the HUGE reasons why they got to where they are is because they were as good as the other guy at a better price point. Now they are as good as the other guy at a higher price point. I think this is a bad move.

I guess however it will make justifying an italian steed to my wife easier, when I do go to replace.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

ukbloke said:


> Very interesting, thank you!
> 
> As you say using Al cups will eventually wear the carbon sleeve. This is similar to a situation with Trek Madone frames (BB90?) where the bearings are pressed directly into the carbon frame. Eventually the frame wears and the press-fit becomes a press-wobble requiring more and stronger loctite until you get to the point where Trek agrees to warranty the frame!
> 
> ...


Directly analogous to the Trek Madone...yes. Trek actually has repeatedly screwed the pooch with their interpretation of BB30 invented by Cannondale. Their 'slip fit' bearings into an alloy cup inset was a complete disaster and resulted in high warranty for them. Loctite was the only saving grace there.

But PF-30 is even an uglier pig really. There is no reason for it. It is offered on Specialized flagship bikes and yet is 'cheaper' to produce...a single through bore hole in the carbon shell versus a much more rigorous inserted/boned alloy cup BB30 which holds up much better over time because Al has much better abrasion resistence than carbon and far superior yield strength to delrin including surface hardness as a suitable bearing surface. PF-30 is a disaster and exists due to 'marketing'. BB30 also exists due to 'marketing'. While better than the abysmal PF30, it is an effort to eliminate outboard bearings and reduce Q-factor to the days of threaded BB + square taper cartridge BB's.

Delrin, no matter what thickness, has no place in a BB. You picked up on a salient if not the signature point. There is a radical difference in design between BB30 and PF30. This means one is better than the other functionally. The irony is BB30 is better and yet not offered on Specialized best bikes aka Sworks. We will see what 2013 brings in terms of the fate of Sworks BB's...what the design is, as it becomes more clear.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

badge118 said:


> Well you answered my question from another thread. There I complained about the huge price jump the lastest 'Pro" Tarmac went through since I was thinking of swapping from my 2009 Roubaix frame with Campy to a tarmac. they recently lowered the tarmac pro to 2850.00 same as the Roubaix but still when you look at bikes in the same category it's not pretty. My other concern was if this jump would carry over to the Roubaix and it did. you can now get the following cheaper...
> 
> Cervelo S3,
> Wilier Imperiale and Grand Tourismo
> ...


I agree. Specialized is upped the ante with both Roubaix and Tarmac Pro models. Many will now think long and hard about paying close to $3K for a frameset including me. The Roubaix Pro complete bike now sells for $6K...a lot of money.

Where the divide exists for me is with geometry. There really isn't another bike on the market 'to me' as good as the Roubaix...unique blend of geometry and performance. By contrast,again in my opinion, there are many good alternatives...now many more cost effective...to the Tarmac. This isn't because the Roubaix is a better bike than the Tarmac, it clearly isn't...it is just a different bike because of unique geometry. There are many bikes on the market with a similar geometry to the Tarmac however and deserve a hard look...especially at that price point. To be clear for me...the reason I came to Specialized was because of the Roubaix and not because the Roubaix is so unique performance wise...my preceeding Look bike was as fast....but because of its friendly geometry and ride comfort since I have upped my riding mileage.
Cheers.


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## nismo73 (Jul 29, 2009)

roadworthy said:


> I agree. Specialized is upped the ante with both Roubaix and Tarmac Pro models. Many will now think long and hard about paying close to $3K for a frameset including me. The Roubaix Pro complete bike now sells for $6K...a lot of money.


I was thinking about "upgrading" from a '10 Comp frame that I have to a new SL4 Roubaix, but by not offering the threaded pro frameset at around $2200, it just might be a no-go for me. I like the Pro SL4 Expert complete bike color with the blue accents that is retailing for $3800, but it comes with the Ultegra that should be upgraded to a 6800 model in 2013. 

So I think I'm now going to wait until next year and see what starts to be available in Roubaix disc models and Cannondale should have a new frame for the Synapse next fall, and they might start to introduce discs too.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

nismo73 said:


> I was thinking about "upgrading" from a '10 Comp frame that I have to a new SL4 Roubaix, but by not offering the threaded pro frameset at around $2200, it just might be a no-go for me. I like the Pro SL4 Expert complete bike color with the blue accents that is retailing for $3800, but it comes with the Ultegra that should be upgraded to a 6800 model in 2013.
> 
> So I think I'm now going to _wait until next year and see what starts to be available in Roubaix disc models and Cannondale should have a new frame for the Synapse next fall, and they might start to introduce discs too_.


So now we go from the BB mess to disc? Talk about fixing (breaking  something that isn't a problem for road...

...go talk to Zinn about road disc.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

DonDenver said:


> So now we go from the BB mess to disc? Talk about fixing (breaking  something that isn't a problem for road...
> 
> ...go talk to Zinn about road disc.


The disc versus caliper argument will rage for sure Don without question. I own a 29er with Avid mechanical disks and love the braking. But as you imply, a solution in search of a problem, I prefer caliper brakes on my road bike. Maybe if I lived in the Alps and did 15 minute descents...I wish ...discs would be beneficial...but not in the flat land where I ride. There is also the issue of cost, weight and maintenance...all three are higher with disk brakes...introduce hydro discs and now you have a...you fill in the blank.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

roadworthy said:


> The disc versus caliper argument will rage for sure Don without question. I own a 29er with Avid mechanical disks and love the braking. But as you imply, a solution in search of a problem, I prefer caliper brakes on my road bike. Maybe if I lived in the Alps and did 15 minute descents...I wish ...discs would be beneficial...but not in the flat land where I ride. There is also the issue of cost, weight and maintenance...all three are higher with disk brakes...introduce hydro discs and now you have a...you fill in the blank.


Once they started coming to decent ways to address the CF wheel heat issue with resins and brake pad materials I simply do not see the reason for disc road brakes any more. More complex, more weight, less aero, less power if mechanical, if hydraulic then the heat issue finally solved is resurrected due to the dynamics of the brake fluid. I just don't get it.


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## CheapSkate (Feb 26, 2012)

An interesting thread. 

Re the OSBB stuff...

So, what do we think is going to happen? 

From an economic POV I bet OSBB makes sense, I bet it saves a lot of money during manufacture, only a small percentage of frames get warranted, and the cost to a manufacturer of a warranty frame is probably only a small fraction of the retail price.

But if Joe Public gets leery of OSBB frames, will they die a death? In the same way that integrated seatposts did. Companies..... just stopped making them. 

But I guess OSBB is not as obvious a problem as ISPs were. Joe Public often buys a complete bike, and is not that interested in the oily bits down below. ISPs were an obvious worry at point of sale - "I have to decide _today_ where I want my seat? It makes it hard to sell the frame on? No thanks!". But OSBB sounds sexy and doesn't look like a problem down the road. 

Will OSBB stay, die, or eventually will someone come up with something that's *actually* better than a threaded BB (rather than just marketing better.... "stiffer! wider! outboardier!")?

I would not touch one of these OSBB frames with a 1000 foot pole. I read of so many problems, so many jerry-rigged solutions, so many warranty claims. When even the manufacturer doesn't know how to install them ("Dry! Grease! Loctite green! Loctite red!").


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

The main issue with ISPs is actually, what do you do when you are done with it? If I went to buy a brand new complete bike many of the LBS's in my area would probably take it and cut the price on the new frame for me. 2009 Roubaix with Campy Chorus 11 spd and HED Ardennes wheels? Even if they didn't want to move it I could easily get some coin off ebay. 

If it had an ISP though it would be a hell of a lot harder to move.


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## Zampano (Aug 7, 2005)

Interesting turn, but not surprising. Guess I saw the writing on the wall, because my Roubaix is hanging bare, replaced by a frame that takes me out of the latest racing and new-model marketing development.


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