# Okay I get it Criteriums are HARD



## rs_herhuth (Aug 17, 2009)

I raced a couple criteriums about 20 years ago. I loved them even though I don't have a lot of memory about details.

This weekend I enjoyed a day of bike racing from the sidelines. I am definitely going to have to do it again, but I want to finish the race.

I have been riding hard and training for group rides and do well. 

How can I tell when I'm ready? What speed should I be able to average for how long? How do I know if I'm a sprinter or not? 

Thanks in advance


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Back in the day, they used to say that you were ready to start racing if you, by yourself, could cover 20 miles on flat ground in one hour flat. But the thing with criteriums is that you need to be able to hold much faster speeds in a pack for a certain length of time, say, 28 mph for one minute. You also need to be able to accelerate out of corners—every one of them if you ride on the back of the pack. So while the 20 mph average figure is a good indicator of general fitness, it's not a reliable number for predicting success in criteriums.

Go out and try it, what's there to lose? If you get dropped, I guarantee you that you won't be the only one.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Be able to go all out for about 30 minutes. Warm up and take a few laps. You might get dropped or you could win. Only way to know is to sign up and race.


----------



## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Don't expect to finish your first few races. Expect to learn a lot in these first few races.

Criteriums are not about average speed. I know TT guys that can average crazy fast speeds, but get blown away in crits. The key to Crits is Pain. When you body is screaming in pain, and the pace picks up 4 mph, you either fly out the back, or you suck it up, and go with the group, for as long as they go hard......Same for the bell lap, and sprinting.....it's all about pain.
.
.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Be able to go all out for about 30 minutes.


No one can go "all out" for 30 minutes. It's generally accepted that an all-out effort starts to decay after about 10 seconds. I know I'm arguing semantics, but "go all out for 30 minutes" is seriously misleading.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Be able to go all out for about 30 minutes. Warm up and take a few laps. You might get dropped or you could win. Only way to know is to sign up and race.


what?!? no one...and i mean no one...can go all out, full gas for 30mins. going 90% for 30mins is one thing, full gas...not possible.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Don't expect to finish your first few races. Expect to learn a lot in these first few races.


Glad I was just typically pathetic, and not atypically pathetic. 

OP, you're not ready. Pin a number on and do it anyway.


----------



## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

go 60% for 2mins then jump to 90% for a min, then 60% then 90% then 60% then 90%, then 100% for about 45sec, then 75% then 50%, then 90%, then 60% then 90%. rinse repeat.

then 120% for 30sec.

I don't think you can really train for crits other than just doing them.


----------



## DMH2979 (May 24, 2011)

I am not good at crits, I cannot sprint and have more of a road racers build, but I don't find them that hard. I don't think it is all about pain or going super duper hard. If you know how to corner well, know how to position yourself well, you can surf the field and really not do too much work save for a few very hard efforts. Not to say some aren't super hard and lined out most of the time, but good cornering and positioning can make a hard crit easy. I've done 100k crits at superweek where I sat in the whole time and really didn't do that much work (granted there were 150 dudes in my race so there were lots of places to hide).
I had friends who used to surf the back, essentially tail gunning on purpose. Too hard to explain here why that can make things easy, but if done right, it can be a good tactic, you just have to be able to pay the price when the guys ahead of you get gapped off.

One w/o I used to do a long time ago for crits was 5 sec on 5 off, 10 on 10 off, all the way up to 1 minute. Very hard.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

wim said:


> No one can go "all out" for 30 minutes. It's generally accepted that an all-out effort starts to decay after about 10 seconds. I know I'm arguing semantics, but "go all out for 30 minutes" is seriously misleading.


Semantics



cxwrench said:


> what?!? no one...and i mean no one...can go all out, full gas for 30mins. going 90% for 30mins is one thing, full gas...not possible.


I don't think the OP has a power meter, probably hasn't read Friel's book, etc. That first crit is going to feel all out and 30 minutes many seem like an eternity.


----------



## curtdawg6 (Feb 26, 2012)

I agree with the 30 minutes feeling like an eternity. I did my first one last night. I was able to hang with the pack the entire 30- although from standing around talking to folks I got the impression it was sort of a slower crit even for a cat 5. I don't have any sort of structured training plan, just try to do 2-3.5 hour rides on weekends and do some 1-2 minute interval drills during the week. Felt like having a few weeks of intervals under my belt helped with the surges (what there were) and getting back with the group after a corner since I was toward the back most of the time.


----------



## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

The start is likely to be fast-like 0 to 30 immediately. Realize that and make a goal of hanging in for the first lap. If you are still there commit to the next lap and keep trying until you blow-if you blow. And if it is a practice type weekly crit, if dropped don't time trial around the course. That will make you tired not fast. Safely jump back in when the pack comes around again. You have to be alert as to when the pack is coming and the road conditions, don't do this if it isn't safe, sprint up to speed before the pack overtakes you and ease back in. Make the race a series of intervals with the pack until you can hang for the entire race. Do short intense max vo2 intervals. There is lots of infomation in books and the internet or this forum on crit and max vo2 intervals. Crit racing is all about going above your redline and very quick recovery. It is the opposite of time trialing. Don't worry if you are a sprinter or not. You have to get fit enough to be at the end to worry about sprinting and by then you will know if you were born a Mark C. or a Lance A. I suspect most riders need to race crits to race crits. You race yourself into fitness for it and gain experience. Leave the ego at home, get hammer but have fun. No one will pay you to do this so it had better be fun. I wish you well and would like to hear back as to how it goes.


----------



## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

I'd practice with 30 seconds 90% on / 30 seconds off rest intervals for a 20 minutes block. More useful is the ability to go really hard out of corners and then sit in and quickly recover than concentrating on threshold type one hour tt fitness.


----------



## scottzj (Oct 4, 2010)

I just finished my 3rd Crit of a 4 race series last night and they dont get any easier. So far I got 10th, 5th and got 12th (raced with a bandaged up left hand that was swollen and cut up). Each race we have done in this series averaged around 22-23mph for the CAT5's. We have had 25mph winds that literally blew a racer over and broke his hip, collar bone, 3 ribs and punctured a lung. So they are extremely intense, fast and hardcore.


----------



## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

There are lots of people who aren’t at the level to be able to hang in, much less deal with the surges. Most crits are flat so just the regular ‘ol non-surge speeds are high (IMO). 

Don’t go in expecting to be dropped, that can’t be the best thing to think going into a race right? But, my money is on you getting dropped  (for the first time out anyway). Don’t think you will be dropped but also don’t be surprised if you are. And wouldn’t it be great if another one or two guys are also dropped – that way, you can call yourselves the chase group! That’s what I do and it feels much better in my head. 

In all seriousness however, a sincere tip of my chapeau to those putting themselves out there. It takes some nerve and guts…Rudy Rudy! :thumbsup:


----------



## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

One thing about "Going all out for 30 minutes"... Novices don't understand the concept of working at a rate where you will be truly cooked in 30 minutes and not 3. So they "go all out" literally then blow up more spectacularly than a Trek carbon bicycle in sunlight.

The only way you can learn how to do crits is through experience. Unless you are the next Eddy Merckx, expect to get ejected out the back and lapped the first few times. But that's ok, as you pick up experience so will you learn how to ride and race a crit successfully.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

and if you get dropped, don't ride around by yourself thinking you'll catch back on...if you get popped and don't get back in in a half lap, slow down and wait for the pack to come around. you won't learn a damn thing riding around in circles alone, and if it's your first race there's now way you'll catch back up even w/ help. spend as much time in the bunch as you can, that's where you'll learn. and don't ever move laterally w/o looking back first. let me repeat that...don't ever move around in the bunch w/o making sure it's clear first.


----------



## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

If you get dropped (I mean when), there's a good chance the official will point at you, and blow his whisle. .....That means Goodbye.

If the field isn't large, and the official feels generous, he may let you ride........Jump on the first guy that passes you.
There are always guys that move around without looking (in the lower catagories)....(make sure you notice who they are)...There are even guys who try to bomb the inside of a turn. ....Don't be one of these. 

Last thing....try not to overlap wheels.....Yes, I know that sometimes you have to, ......but if you do, be prepared to respond to a rear wheel going into your front wheel.


----------



## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

Find out the start time, warm up for 30 minutes or so prior and put in a few short 10 second max efforts to get your legs ready. Try to start still sweaty and ready to go. Just be careful out there, try your absolute best to hold on to the pack, and remember it will be over soon enough. As soon as you give in the urge to not hold on or if you simply can't, don't feel bad. I got dropped and lapped my first time, it was embarrassing, but I came back stronger next race and just finishing in the pack made me feel better.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

My crits have all been practice crits. So it was stated explicitly that if we got dropped, we could wait a lap and hop in again - just don't sprint for primes or the finish. I think that was helpful in getting to where I could actually stay with the damn thing.


----------



## climbinthebigring (Mar 13, 2011)

_Winning_ criteriums is hard, racing them is as easy as you want it to be. You can just sit in the wheels the whole time and if you know how to handle a bike well exert very little energy. It's when you go to the front and either get in or try and chase down breakaways that it becomes difficult.


----------



## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

"As soon as you give in the urge to not hold on or if you simply can't, don't feel bad. "

9 times out of 10, people don't hold on, not because they can't, but because they don't want it bad enough. If you're starting to "grey out", and lose color vision, you might have an excuse. The guys that win races all the time, hurt just as bad as you.....They are just able to hurt more.
.
.


----------



## scottzj (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree 100%, as my last race I just didnt feel it. I never was "able" to bridge the gap on the break away and no one cared to help me. So, since my hand was hurting bad, I just sat there doing what I could to make it thru the race.

A couple pics of me from the 2nd Crit race in the 4 series.....I got 5th and could have done better if I would have pushed it hard enough.


----------



## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

These people who imply that crits can be easy are fooling you. It’s not like you are sitting on a beach when you sit in the pack. It is close to all out at times, except when the surges come (which are often), in which case you will have to go harder than you thought you could (and very possibly harder than you can). I mean geez, you’ll usually be in the mid 20 mph when you’re sitting in and supposedly taking it easy. So to those who think that’s easy and expends very little energy, my hat off to you. 

These types of “crits can be easy if you just sit in” implications only confuse normal people. So to the OP, if you get dropped from your first few because you aren’t able to sit in, just know that it’s not because you aren’t able to do something easy. Like your title says – crits are HARD.


----------



## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

climbinthebigring said:


> _Winning_ criteriums is hard, racing them is as easy as you want it to be. You can just sit in the wheels the whole time and if you know how to handle a bike well exert very little energy. It's when you go to the front and either get in or try and chase down breakaways that it becomes difficult.


^^^This.


----------



## windswept_too (Apr 15, 2012)

At 58 I entered my first mtn bike race and yesterday at 59 I rode my first crit on a 8th of a mile course at Fort Richardson, AK., on a 2010 Speacialized roubaix comp shod with Specialized Armadillos. 

Thanks to this forum and Bicycling I was prepared for what to expect and that is exactly how the crit went. The beginner mens class was combined with the men/womens sport class. We started 1.5 minutes after the sport class.for a combined total of 21 riders.

The weather wasn't anything close to optimal, windy and near the end light snow began to fall. I began my warm-up thirty minutes prior to the start time and allowed myself 10 minutes to pee and the riders meeting.

Well rested I was able to stay with my group for 4 laps and after that youth prevailed and left me behind. Naturally I was dropped but continued at my race pace for 35 minutes for a last place finish. 

I was lapped twice by both classes. Incidentally, at the riders meeting and at the start I let everyone know that I'm hard of hearing and nearly deaf in my right ear. I know what it means to hold a line and this is what I told the other riders what to expect in the turns. It worked without a hitch.

Again, thanks for the advice and everyone should experience a crit before they die.


----------



## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

If you get lapped, don't jump onto a break away. Get back into the main field. Lapped riders sucking wheel on a breakaway, or taking lousy pulls, is very rude yet still happens all the time.

Don't take it personally if someone shouts at you. Also, it is ok to yell if you feel like someone is putting you in a dangerous position. "Yo LOOK OUT SPACE WATCH OUT I'M SCARED!" or something like that.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

foto said:


> If you get lapped, don't jump onto a break away. Get back into the main field. Lapped riders sucking wheel on a breakaway, or taking lousy pulls, is very rude yet still happens all the time.
> 
> Don't take it personally if someone shouts at you. Also, it is ok to yell if you feel like someone is putting you in a dangerous position. "Yo LOOK OUT SPACE WATCH OUT I'M SCARED!" or something like that.


You're really not supposed to take pulls as a lapped rider.


----------



## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Clint-
Ft Rich is a great course for a first-timer. No really sharp turns and dangerous spots where you can be squeezed. The only problem is that the wind always seems to be coming head-on, no matter which way you're going. Sorry I missed that one, because it's always a fun race. A few of those guys you were lined up against are pretty good diesels, but usually get dropped on the hillier courses. A course like Ft Rich or Bodenburg favors those guys, while Kincaid or Hope Road favors the guys who can climb a bit better. Find your niche and exploit your strengths. It's a small league, so you figure out who's who pretty quickly.

I ride for Speedway in the Sport Class, and I missed the last few races because I'm on the other side of the continent right now, frying my brains out. I've been in Alaska too long, and I can't handle moderate heat anymore. I hope to be home and back in action by the next Moose Run TT.


----------



## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

A quick nod to the OP for getting out there. I did my first earlier this week, every bit of advice I got on my crit thread came into play. I came in 17th out of 21 or 22 male and female racers. I go do it again on the 15th!:thumbsup:


----------



## windswept_too (Apr 15, 2012)

> Ft Rich is a great course for a first-timer.


Alaska Mike, I certainly agree and look forward to meeting you at the Moose Run TT for which I am alread signed-up. My bib number is 343 and I ride a white Specialized roubaix comp. 

I'll try to address concerns regarding riding the course alone but first some bio information. 

I used to cross country ski and skijor but these pursuits ended with a total hip replacement and my lead dog, a wonderful lab, had a TPLO on his right knee in 2009 and again-a second knee surgery in 2010-me that is. 

The aforemention isn't an excuse for riding the course alone however during the riders meeting and just prior to my start every rider in the beginner men/women and sport class had the opportunity to voice their concerns relative to my riding ability. 

I tried to make it clear that I know how to keep my line and from the way things went this worked well. I was able to practice my apexes in the turns both inside and out and it's worth mentioning while being passed and not being passed. This isn't exactly keeping with the flow but overtaking does occur prior too and after the apex of a turn and this requires skill and discipline.

With the sport class mixed with the beginners it's a little like the LMP1's racing along side the GT class. There's even a wide distinction of ability and age within the beginner class. 

I'd like to thank the other riders for allowing me to be a part of the crit learning experience and to the discussion here on this same subject. From what I've gleaned here is that next time I'll see if I can't get feedback from the other riders regarding re-entering the pack vs being lapped.


----------



## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

As easy as you want it to be? That's funny. My last race we were doing 30 to 31 mph for the first 3 laps. That might be easy for some, but even in a pack that was hardly easy for me.


----------



## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Clint-
There's a wide variety of ability levels in every class. Like I said, everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. I ride a decent TT, and won the Tour of Anchorage (Beginner Class) based on that ability. The skinny guys drop me like an anchor in climbs, but if I limit my losses I can usually play on my strengths.

Don't worry about the early season races. Some people train hard all winter and roll in there stronger than others, while some people improve progressively as the season goes on. One of those guys that beat you just got back from the Lavaman Triathlon in Hawaii. Just train as well as you can and as much as you are motivated for, and you'll improve. It's supposed to be fun, after all. Keep racing and keep your eyes and ears open. Lots to learn, and that's what makes it fun.

Moose Runs TTs are a great way to judge your fitness as the season progresses. Hopefully I'll be out there (bib #202), because I'm really interested in how I'm doing this season.


----------



## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

T K said:


> As easy as you want it to be? That's funny. My last race we were doing 30 to 31 mph for the first 3 laps. That might be easy for some, but even in a pack that was hardly easy for me.


I get what you mean but, I think what was meant was in the context of a particular race. Not every race under the sun. Meaning, in any race it's much easier to sit in rather than cover breaks, attack, ride tempo on the front etc...whether that means sitting in on a flat course at 26 or 32 is irrelevant. It's still easier to sit in at 32 than be on the front at 32.

Field size, wind speed/direction, terrain all modify ^^^!


----------



## rs_herhuth (Aug 17, 2009)

Okay you all convinced me to give it a try. Im modifying my training to simulate criteriums.

I have attended two criteriums as a spectator and the bug bit me. Im getting my new bike in a week or so but I missed Speedweek here in Atlanta, GA...im bummed about that.

How do I find more local crits to try? I want my points to count towards getting me out of the suicide cat 5.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

rs_herhuth said:


> Okay you all convinced me to give it a try. Im modifying my training to simulate criteriums.
> 
> I have attended two criteriums as a spectator and the bug bit me. Im getting my new bike in a week or so but I missed Speedweek here in Atlanta, GA...im bummed about that.
> 
> How do I find more local crits to try? I want my points to count towards getting me out of the suicide cat 5.


there should be some local racing organization that has a website w/ a calendar of every event for the entire year. and you don't have to worry about points as a 5, if you survive 10 races you upgrade. you should do all you can and get as much experience as possible. 

a quick google search (ahem) found this...
http://gacycling.org/site/?page_id=6


----------



## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> The guys that win races all the time, hurt just as bad as you.....They are just able to hurt more.
> .
> .


^this!!!!


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

rs_herhuth said:


> I raced a couple criteriums about 20 years ago. I loved them even though I don't have a lot of memory about details.
> 
> This weekend I enjoyed a day of bike racing from the sidelines. I am definitely going to have to do it again, but I want to finish the race.
> 
> ...


You're not ready until you do it. 

So do it. 


How can you tell if you're a sprinter? Well, the chances are that you're not. (Sorry) Lots of guys think they are sprinters because they lack fitness. Consequently sprinting for a short period of time feels like their best aspect. Almost everyone feels good when they can sit in and then jump hard for 5-7 seconds -- it doesn't mean they are good at sprinting. 

There's a lot more to sprinting than being able to put out power for a short period of time. There's instinct, pack skills, knowing when to go, and having the fitness to get there. 

So how can you tell if you're a sprinter? You win sprints. 

Who knows -- maybe you really are a sprinter. Either way you should work on interval training to lower your recovery time between efforts, ride at high intensity in groups to gain overall fitness (and make it to the final sprint), and enter more races to 'race yourself into shap.' Good luck.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

The idea that suffering more wins crits is usually true. Sometimes you're just dealing with people who have a superior engine and are waiting to upgrade. When someone can lap the field by himself, it's a heck of a lot more than just suffering.


----------



## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

*Everyone in the race is suffering*

I gotta say, the whole suffering bit is BS to me. Everyone is suffering during a race. If someone beats you it's likely because they are stronger. I can suffer until I puke, black out, whatever - but that doesn't mean I can beat the stronger guy. It's not like a field is even in strength and the determining factor is pain tolerance. 

If you lose it's probably not because you didn't suffer enough, it's because you didn't train hard enough, long enough, right enough, etc. If you put my neighbor (who doesn't ride) on a bike I race him, believe me, he will suffer much more than I will but I will still beat him pretty handily. But hey, it sure can make one feel better if they can say "I am strong enough to beat Contador up a climb, I just don't like to suffer".


----------



## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

The goal is to suffer while training, not while racing.
The races I suffered the most, I did terrible. 
The races I did the best, I didn't suffer at all. Other guys were suffering while I was passing them.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

That's funny my experience is the opposite. When I'm feeling awesome, usually it's because I'm not pushing myself at my real limit. Of course, I can only go anaerobic so many times before I'm toast...


----------



## supraholic (Oct 10, 2010)

Stay in the pack and it's almost cutting the efforts in half but don't get caught napping or you will get dropped or miss the winning breakaway.


----------



## supraholic (Oct 10, 2010)

scottzj said:


> I agree 100%, as my last race I just didnt feel it. I never was "able" to bridge the gap on the break away and no one cared to help me. So, since my hand was hurting bad, I just sat there doing what I could to make it thru the race.
> 
> A couple pics of me from the 2nd Crit race in the 4 series.....I got 5th and could have done better if I would have pushed it hard enough.


Funny....almost anyone that races including me, says "the outcome would have been better if I turned myself inside out."

The best part of any race is the end


----------



## supraholic (Oct 10, 2010)

T K said:


> The goal is to suffer while training, not while racing.
> The races I suffered the most, I did terrible.
> The races I did the best, I didn't suffer at all. Other guys were suffering while I was passing them.


I get disoriented sometimes doing intervals on the rollers


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Don't think you have to win your first race. Avoid heroics. 

The goal in your first crit is to stay upright and finish with the pack.


----------



## jkompa (May 15, 2012)

Strategy not just speed are crutial to criteriums. Ride smart - stay in the pack and don't pull. If a break away goes consider who is in it, many times it won't stick so don't worry too much, stay with the main group (unless it is late in race). Don't worry about primes until you feel more comfortable with racing crits and know where you stand. Be smart going into the last lap an get yourself in position before the last turn to give you a chance in the last sprint.


----------



## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

My next crit begins in 5 hours. I'm sore, tired and exhausted from training.


----------

