# Do You Ever Use the Small Ring?



## jlandry

I’ve been working on using only the big ring through the whole ride, even on climbs. (Compact crankset) I’ve noticed this is what the Hardmen in my group do, and they’re faster than I am. While improving, I find I’m climbing hills I thought I never could in such a big gear. There are no mountains where I am; otherwise it would be a different story. Just wondering what you guys do WRT big-ring-little-ring riding.


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## woodys737

Yes. I use whatever gear is appropriate which includes the little ring. Riding in a gear/ring just because someone else does is not a good way to ride. The hardmen on your ride may be in the big ring more than you because they are generating more power and can keep their cadence comfortable. With that said, if you have noticed an improvement then maybe you were just riding around in too easy gearing.


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## Jay Strongbow

Of course. I use the smallest gear I can get away with, which in my case isn't that small because I'm not great at generating power with a high cadance though I wish I was. If I see someone using significantly bigger gear than I going up a mountain I know either they are stronger (in which case I won't see them for long), prefer a low cadance, or are going to burn out a lot quicker than I am (usually the case).

If you think you should use different gears, fine, try it. What other people use is irrelevent though.

Despite what you read on the internet gear selection should be about efficiency not about using the biggest you can get away with to boost ego and sound like a hardman on the internet.

Also, just because someone is in the big ring up front doesn't necessarily mean they are in a bigger gear than someone in the small ring. Some people are more cross chaining adverse than others.


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## MattSoutherden

I always use the 53x11. You should try it in your next race.

BIG RING LIKE A BOSS!

:cornut:


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## veloduffer

My coaches always preached riding in the small ring in the early season/training - "you can't spin a big gear fast until you spin a small gear fast". (Of course, this was when the only cranks were 53x39.) Nevertheless, I try to ride the smallest gear that I can to keep cadence high.


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## bonknkrash

not that I am a racer or anything of the nature, just purely a new rider. 

But, lately when I am out on my own, I have been trying to ride only in the big ring. trying to build the power, speed, and strength.

When I ride with others, on a long ride, I ride whatever gear I can to be most efficient and conserve energy for the whatever the ride entails.


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## Creakyknees

I'm an experienced cat 3 racer. I am always in the small ring at stoplights / stop signs and race starts, yes even in criteriums I start with the small ring / middle cog combo. It allows me to accelerate faster than the "hardmen" who seem incapable of shifting the front, meaning, I get good position at the front of the field while they are still getting started. 

On hills, heck yes I hit the small ring all the time - to me, cadence is the most critical thing; I can spin up a hill and save my legs while the "hard men" are slowly torquing all the juice out of their legs. 

As long as you have reliable front shifting (which, it's amazing to me how many riders don't) then you should use all the gears that you paid for.


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## BillyWayne

As a few others have already said, I try to keep cadence high so I do use the small ring. My road bike has a compact and my tri bike has a 52/38 and I use small ring on both.


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## Wookiebiker

Move to some place with hills...you will use your small ring then.

When Pro's are using gearing combos such as 36x28...there is no reason to exclusively use your big ring, unless it's a 34 or 39 tooth ring. Doing so is pretty much...well...stupid, unless you live in an area where the biggest climb is a highway overpass.


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## Poncharelli

Another Cat 3 here. Yes, I use the small ring all the time, on hills of course. And it seems as the more years I ride, the more my average rpm creeps higher and higher. 85-90rpm feels like grinding to me now.

I was talking with some of our state's better riders, and they were stressing the importance of RPM development.


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## spade2you

A lot. Hell, I even use it on my TT bike when I'm having to fight a $^#@# 30mph headwind. I hate hose. 

I most definitely will use my small ring while climbing. For the Joe Martin TT this year, I spent a lot of time in the 34x25 and spun like it was going out of style. I improved on last year's time by about 50 seconds on the 2.5 mile uphill course.


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## wesb321

I have been avoiding the small ring at all cost for the past 2 years, on a good day I would pull cat 4 and 5 climbs on the 50/24, now I have been trying to use my small ring more and more and more. It drastically lowers my mph but raises my cadence and preserves leg juice like someone mentioned already. Hopefully over time I will find the magic in gear manipulation and come out ahead in training. I have a racing license but rarely get to join the fun so we'll see!


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## Local Hero

Standard crank with 11-28 in the back so I have plenty of range. Do I use the small ring? It depends...

Almost never in crits. Rarely on the local circuit race course, even with the punchy climbs. Definitely on hilly road races and our saturday morning hammerfest, which includes a significant, prolonged climb. 

That said, I hate shifting the chainrings. Maybe electronic makes things easier, I don't know. But there seems to always be something wrong with shifting the load-bearing portion the chain. I haven't dropped my chain in forever and I still feel this way. I just don't like it, even with my sram red. I didn't like it with my DA 7800 either. 

So here's the plan: Next time I get a new bike I'll convert my current steed into a 1X10, with a 44T or 48T up front. I've raced crits on a single speed with some success. My CX race rig is a 1X10. Why not a make a road 1X10? I've already thoughts about it. 

44X11 provides 108 gear inches and there are many bash guards available. 

48X11 gives 117.8 (higher than 52X12) but I would need a custom bash guard.


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## Samadhi

jlandry said:


> I’ve been working on using only the big ring through the whole ride, even on climbs. (Compact crankset) I’ve noticed this is what the Hardmen in my group do, and they’re faster than I am. While improving, I find I’m climbing hills I thought I never could in such a big gear. There are no mountains where I am; otherwise it would be a different story. Just wondering what you guys do WRT big-ring-little-ring riding.


I am a weak and pathetic pu$$y/softman.

I spend a lot of time on the the small ring because I feel this best reflects the relative lack of size in my manparts.

I also get beaten up a lot by other cyclists.

Humor aside .....

I spend most of my ride somewhere near the middle of the cassette and switch between the big and small chainrings. I have a 12/18 - 34/50 setip and riding around town I'll have the rear set to the 22t cog and switch between the chainrings. That gives me a gear low enough to get off of a stop , and a reasonable high gear that can get me up to 20 mph fairly easily


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## PoorCyclist

I did some big ring riding and even small ring mid cluster climbing, 
I set my personal record for sure..

Then one of my knee / IT band blew up eventually from this kind of riding and now I am sitting at home.

Kind of frustrating because my base, and cardio is good, and the legs feel good ! but my muscle stability wasn't as good as I thought.


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## redlude97

wesb321 said:


> I have been avoiding the small ring at all cost for the past 2 years, on a good day I would pull cat 4 and 5 climbs on the 50/24, now I have been trying to use my small ring more and more and more. It drastically lowers my mph but raises my cadence and preserves leg juice like someone mentioned already. Hopefully over time I will find the magic in gear manipulation and come out ahead in training. I have a racing license but rarely get to join the fun so we'll see!


Why is using the small ring slowing you down so drastically when 34x16/15 give you almost the same gearing, with 3-4 higher gears?


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## BostonG

Umm, yes, I use the small ring a good amount. Is there anyone who doesn't? I don't think I've ever encountered such a beast. 

I use whatever is most efficient over the whole ride. In the handful of crits I did (not well I might add) I was in the big ring the whole time. In road races, I go between big and little - there is usually at least one good climb. I use the small ring on training and group rides sometimes. And, I use my little ring on recovery or easy rides all the time. I run a mid compact BTW - 52/36.

Like others said, I try to keep the chain in the middle of my cogs and if that means using the small ring, so be it - I trust it shall not make my penis shrink too much.


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## wesb321

redlude97 said:


> Why is using the small ring slowing you down so drastically when 34x16/15 give you almost the same gearing, with 3-4 higher gears?


I think it is because my legs aren't used to the cadence. I climb faster on the big ring. I climb longer and less painfully on the small.


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## redlude97

wesb321 said:


> I think it is because my legs aren't used to the cadence. I climb faster on the big ring. I climb longer and less painfully on the small.


The cadence would be the same...


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## Vibe

I have a triple compact 50 39 30 and I spend 75% of the time on the 39 ring up front. I wouldn't worry about what ring the other guys are pushing. If you're racing, the only thing that matters is who is faster.


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## wblas3271

I ride a 52/42 and I use my small ring a lot.


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## stevesbike

jlandry said:


> I’ve been working on using only the big ring through the whole ride, even on climbs. (Compact crankset) I’ve noticed this is what the Hardmen in my group do, and they’re faster than I am. While improving, I find I’m climbing hills I thought I never could in such a big gear. There are no mountains where I am; otherwise it would be a different story. Just wondering what you guys do WRT big-ring-little-ring riding.


Hardmen don't ride compact cranks...I ride with a protour rider sometimes and he climbs in a 39x28. Just sayin.


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## Dream Plus

Why carry gears you don't use? I use all of mine, and if I need more, I'd add them too. If you don't use your little ring, you should get rid of it.


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## Vibe

Dream Plus said:


> Why carry gears you don't use? I use all of mine, and if I need more, I'd add them too. If you don't use your little ring, you should get rid of it.


True - going with double compact and 11-25 next year.


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## wesb321

stevesbike said:


> Hardmen don't ride compact cranks...I ride with a protour rider sometimes and he climbs in a 39x28. Just sayin.



Do you know the Cat of the climbs and what his speeds or cadence on these are? A 39/28 sounds way overkill and I'm a big guy, I use a 26 as my 'all else has failed and I'm going to die bail out gear'.


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## wesb321

redlude97 said:


> The cadence would be the same...


It is probably just me then. I am a strong guy at 5' 11" and 188 lbs. I can push the big ring hard and just never used the smaller one unless I really had to. I have been trying to raise my cadence the past couple of weeks, the small ring feels weird and spins my legs out it seems.


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## 2Slo4U

hills - large ring
mountains - small ring


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## gordy748

2Slo4U said:


> hills - large ring
> mountains - small ring


Not in Seattle, you don't. Only today I went for an aerobic intensity ride and ended up on 2 10% and 3 5% hills. 

Anyway, back in the day when Lance was doing the Tour de France, he would always, always, use a much easier gear than Ullrich and Basso. There they were at 80 rpm while Lance was at 110. We all know who won that battle.

Base rule is you should use the gear you want, not the gear your friends do. Also, when in doubt, go easier not harder.


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## marathon marke

Quote:




Originally Posted by wesb321

I have been avoiding the small ring at all cost for the past 2 years, on a good day I would pull cat 4 and 5 climbs on the 50/24, now I have been trying to use my small ring more and more and more. It drastically lowers my mph but raises my cadence and preserves leg juice like someone mentioned already. Hopefully over time I will find the magic in gear manipulation and come out ahead in training. I have a racing license but rarely get to join the fun so we'll see! 




redlude97 said:


> Why is using the small ring slowing you down so drastically when 34x16/15 give you almost the same gearing, with 3-4 higher gears?


Isn't it true that using a larger chainring and larger cog will give you less (chain-gear) resistance than using the same ratio in a small ring and small cog combination?


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## jlandry

gordy748 said:


> Not in Seattle, you don't. Only today I went for an aerobic intensity ride and ended up on 2 10% and 3 5% hills.
> 
> Anyway, back in the day when Lance was doing the Tour de France, he would always, always, use a much easier gear than Ullrich and Basso. There they were at 80 rpm while Lance was at 110. We all know who won that battle.
> 
> Base rule is you should use the gear you want, not the gear your friends do. Also, when in doubt, go easier not harder.


When "I" try this, I get much slower mph with the "fast cadence/easier gear" than the "slow cad/harder gear". What am I doing wrong?


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## Vibe

jlandry said:


> When "I" try this, I get much slower mph with the "fast cadence/easier gear" than the "slow cad/harder gear". What am I doing wrong?


What's your crank/cassette? 

Probably not pedaling fast enough to make up for the smaller crank/cog.


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## BostonG

jlandry said:


> When "I" try this, I get much slower mph with the "fast cadence/easier gear" than the "slow cad/harder gear". What am I doing wrong?


Probably just not spinning fast enough.

A higher gear does not at all mean that someone will be going faster. But if you feel better with a slower cadence and perform better, then use it. 

Just like the OP shouldn’t go into his large ring just because his buddies do, so should you not go into lower gears just because others preach spinning (I’m a devoted spinner BTW but don’t go door to door trying to convert people). 

To each his/her own ya know.


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## Jay Strongbow

jlandry said:


> When "I" try this, I get much slower mph with the "fast cadence/easier gear" than the "slow cad/harder gear". What am I doing wrong?


You're probably not doing anything wrong. Going to smaller gears/high cadance slows most people down in the short run. Going to an easier gear/faster cadence isn't about going faster right then and there though it's about sustainability. If you ride hills short enough so that doesn't matter I wouldn't worry about spinning fast although it is a good skill to have should you ever be on a ride where you could benefit from it. 

The example you quoted about Armstrong kicking arse in a higher cadence than Ulrich was on a long tough hill. It wouldn't have meant squat on a speed bump hill. It also not proof of anything really because we don't know that Ulrich would have kept up if he too used a 110 cadance.....he may have been even further back. Who knows. It probably is safe to say his legs would have had more left at the top though.


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## Local Hero

marathon marke said:


> Isn't it true that using a larger chainring and larger cog will give you less (chain-gear) resistance than using the same ratio in a small ring and small cog combination?


Do you have a source that backs this up?


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## Jay Strongbow

Local Hero said:


> Do you have a source that backs this up?


I've read there is slightly less chain friction in the big ring compared to the same ratio on in the small but we are talking miniscule amounts and it is kind of absurd that one would feel easier because that difference in friction is such a tiny percentage of the power you're putting into it.


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## NWS Alpine

I use it often. I have a 53/39 12-23 setup. I am also 205lbs and built like a football player. Headwinds and it gets tough to push a big ring into the wind at an 85+ cadence. It is really flat here but the wind can get the bigger guys.


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## redlude97

Jay Strongbow said:


> I've read there is slightly less chain friction in the big ring compared to the same ratio on in the small but we are talking miniscule amounts and it is kind of absurd that one would feel easier because that difference in friction is such a tiny percentage of the power you're putting into it.


It think its minimal also, but my opinion is the small chainring has less friction because the RD isn't as stretched. The curved path through the RD i would guess as an engineer provides the largest source of friction, and the big/big along with the cross chaining would result in more friction than a small ring/small cog combo


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## Jay Strongbow

redlude97 said:


> It think its minimal also, but my opinion is the small chainring has less friction because the RD isn't as stretched. The curved path through the RD i would guess as an engineer provides the largest source of friction, and the big/big along with the cross chaining would result in more friction than a small ring/small cog combo


That's what I'd think too and exactly what I thought of when I read the opposite. I forget where I read it though but do remember it being what at the time I thought was a trustworthy source. It was on the internet though, so, well, you know.


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## Poncharelli

jlandry said:


> When "I" try this, I get much slower mph with the "fast cadence/easier gear" than the "slow cad/harder gear". What am I doing wrong?


If you really want to have a higher cadence then it's something you will have to work on. 

One good exercise is the Joe Friel "spin ups". Slowly build from your normal cadence to maximum cadence over 1 minute. Repeat every 5 minutes or so. This exercise could discovery some issues with bike fit, position, etc. that may be inhibiting your rpm. U may have to lower your saddle to keep from bouncing.

Or do a long endurance ride and focus on an rpm of 90+ for the whole ride. This is a tough one, especially keeping the rpm high after 2 hours. Smooth pavement definitely helps.

In my own post race analysis I find that 95-100rpm is where I'm at during really ugly moments of racing (that tough 5-7 minute hill that makes or breaks a race for example).

Only time will tell if rpm development will individually result in higher power. It has for me.


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## Local Hero

Jay Strongbow said:


> I've read there is slightly less chain friction in the big ring compared to the same ratio on in the small but we are talking miniscule amounts and it is kind of absurd that one would feel easier because that difference in friction is such a tiny percentage of the power you're putting into it.


Ultimately, it's still the same length of chain -- though more or less of it may be taken up by the rear derailleur. And if you follow one link, it will make the same number of trips through the drive train given the same gear inch. 

I've heard people argue one way or the other but never found any of the arguments convincing. As far as I am concerned, there is no mechanical advantage for 39/13, 42/14, 45/15, 48/16, 51/17 or 54/18. They all equal 81 gear inches. 


___________________________________________________
___________________________________________________



I am completely open to new information on this. If someone has a reputable source that shows 39/13 is somehow superior (or inferior) to 54/18, please let me know!


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## spade2you

jlandry said:


> When "I" try this, I get much slower mph with the "fast cadence/easier gear" than the "slow cad/harder gear". What am I doing wrong?


Could be a lot of things. 
Is your bike fitted?

I train higher cadence. I can hold decent power at low cadence, but can't make solid accelerations when I'm bogged down. Climbing in a race is a lot different than climbing solo. You don't always get to set the pace. 

I don't always use the 34x25 combo, but will if the hill is long or steep enough.


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## MR_GRUMPY

"Do You Ever Use the Small Ring?"

Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids.

Of course. I often use it in training, or in hilly road races.
Never in Crits. 

Racing gears 12-23, or 12-25..53X39
Training gears 13-25..53X39


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## k1banjo

Since I live in the mountains, I use the small ring alot. But for me, my cadence determines the ring that I use. Unfortunately for me, I cannot keep up my cadence even by using my lowest gear combo.


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## moose82

I have a 53/39 up front and a 12/25 cassette. I naturally prefer keeping a higher RPM so I'll use the small ring as much as I want/need to. I have been thinking about going with a compact crank since I do not need the standard gearing.

But as others have said, I'll use the gear I feel is the best choice. If somebody else is in the big ring and I'm in the small, I'm really not too concerned about it. Different strokes right?


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## spade2you

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Of course. I often use it in training, or in hilly road races.
> Never in Crits.


A few crits that I've done had a nice steep climb in them. Judging by all of the shifting I heard around me, I wasn't the only one who dropped into the small ring for the wall.


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## Local Hero

spade2you said:


> A few crits that I've done had a nice steep climb in them. Judging by all of the shifting I heard around me, I wasn't the only one who dropped into the small ring for the wall.


Up the hill and into the wind: youtube.com/watch?v=YmQyP-Wg148


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## Hughsdad

I ride the small ring all the time, on the flats, up to about 38kph. Above that I'll put it on the large ring. But I like to spin at around 100rpm. I rode with a guy yesterday who was in his 53x12 a lot, but he must have been turning about 70rpm. Makes my knees hurt just to think about it.


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## wesb321

spade2you said:


> A few crits that I've done had a nice steep climb in them. Judging by all of the shifting I heard around me, I wasn't the only one who dropped into the small ring for the wall.



Did you do the Joe Martin this year? 



I can testify with video to some of the best in the world like Mancebo in the yellow jersey here small ringing it up Block St. in the Sunday crit which isn't steep and is very short. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=278141045612810&set=vb.100002507508395&type=2&theater


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## spade2you

wesb321 said:


> Did you do the Joe Martin this year?


I did, just not very well. :idea: Block St. sure feels steep when it's your 3rd race in 2 days.


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## wesb321

spade2you said:


> Block St. sure feels steep when it's your 3rd race in 2 days.



Ewwww, I bet it did!

If you raced on Saturday I was the guy having to move the start/finish barricades while the cop directed traffic.

I know I saw Mancebo getting a liitle push up Block St. during one lap from a teammate and a couple times he was bearing teeth like Grrrrrrrr. He stayed up front every lap so he had plenty in the tank, you could see it just was hurting is all. Whomever the Bissel rider was had been dominating that hill towards the end. Here is some other vids for the bored or interested. Mens' Pro crit footage, Womens' Pro crit footage and Mens' Pro road footage.

Mens pro! Burning it down!! | Facebook

Womens Pro don't mess around! | Facebook

Tearing it up!! Mens. | Facebook


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## spade2you

wesb321 said:


> Ewwww, I bet it did!
> 
> If you raced on Saturday I was the guy having to move the start/finish barricades while the cop directed traffic.
> 
> I know I saw Mancebo getting a liitle push up Block St. during one lap from a teammate and a couple times he was bearing teeth like Grrrrrrrr. He stayed up front every lap so he had plenty in the tank, you could see it just was hurting is all. Whomever the Bissel rider was had been dominating that hill towards the end. Here is some other vids for the bored or interested. Mens' Pro crit footage, Womens' Pro crit footage and Mens' Pro road footage.
> 
> Mens pro! Burning it down!! | Facebook
> 
> Womens Pro don't mess around! | Facebook
> 
> Tearing it up!! Mens. | Facebook



I didn't stay much past my crit since I had about a 7 hour drive and plenty of stuff to do at home. I saw a guy in master's 3 totally implode on that hill. It hurt just watching him try to climb that hill. 

Thanks for helping with the race. Things didn't go as well for me in the road race, but it's an awesome race and I hope to to it again next year. 

Crazy wreck at the finish line with the pro women, eh? I was in the back of the parking lot trying to cool down when I heard the sound of many carbon bikes hitting the pavement at high speed. I was puckered for an hour after that sound!


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## wesb321

spade2you said:


> I didn't stay much past my crit since I had about a 7 hour drive and plenty of stuff to do at home. I saw a guy in master's 3 totally implode on that hill. It hurt just watching him try to climb that hill.
> 
> Thanks for helping with the race. Things didn't go as well for me in the road race, but it's an awesome race and I hope to to it again next year.
> 
> Crazy wreck at the finish line with the pro women, eh? I was in the back of the parking lot trying to cool down when I heard the sound of many carbon bikes hitting the pavement at high speed. I was puckered for an hour after that sound!



I saw the women crash first hand, 3 went to the ER for broken bones.This year was my first time to be up close around pro women racers off the bike. Some are crazy over the top and others are pretty laid back and cool. I had developed many crushes over that weekend..lol. I worked the crit day as well as our team/club is the host for the race. Next year I am going to try and be in the wheel trucks. People keep asking me why I don't enter it so we will see.. we will see.


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## spade2you

wesb321 said:


> I saw the women crash first hand, 3 went to the ER for broken bones.This year was my first time to be up close around pro women racers off the bike. Some are crazy over the top and others are pretty laid back and cool. I had developed many crushes over that weekend..lol. I worked the crit day as well as our team/club is the host for the race. Next year I am going to try and be in the wheel trucks. People keep asking me why I don't enter it so we will see.. we will see.


I'm glad I didn't see that crash, especially going into the crit. Hearing it was spooky enough. 

It's a great race. Sometimes I wish there were more time to recover after the ITT. I'd love to give it full gas if I didn't have to race about 50 miles a few hours later. I was happy it wasn't as hot as it was last year. We had a very cold spring and a combination of pacing myself poorly in the ITT and the extreme weather change destroyed me and I didn't even bother with the crit. 

Nonetheless, thanks for helping with the race. I wish you the best racing or helping with it next year.


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## wesb321

spade2you said:


> I'm glad I didn't see that crash, especially going into the crit. Hearing it was spooky enough.
> 
> It's a great race. Sometimes I wish there were more time to recover after the ITT. I'd love to give it full gas if I didn't have to race about 50 miles a few hours later. I was happy it wasn't as hot as it was last year. We had a very cold spring and a combination of pacing myself poorly in the ITT and the extreme weather change destroyed me and I didn't even bother with the crit.
> 
> Nonetheless, thanks for helping with the race. I wish you the best racing or helping with it next year.


There was another equally bad one in one of the mens crit that you must have also missed by leaving town right away. The last left turn before you hit Dickson St had a pile up. My friends father raced in the masters just after having a lung puncture in a previous crit, criterium crashes hurt but they don't kill ya!


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## sl3inct

If you find your cadence is at 50 because you want to climb in the big ring, youre burning through glycogen in your muscles. That may come back to haunt you later if you have to sprint to the finish.


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## BassNBrew

sl3inct said:


> If you find your cadence is at 50 because you want to climb in the big ring, youre burning through glycogen in your muscles. That may come back to haunt you later if you have to sprint to the finish.


Please explain. I thought glycogen use was all about power output / heart rate. 

I usually ride around 70-80 rpm and feel very comfortable there. As I approach 90 rpm and try to maintain the same power my hr spikes.


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## MattSoutherden

BassNBrew said:


> I usually ride around 70-80 rpm and feel very comfortable there. As I approach 90 rpm and try to maintain the same power my hr spikes.


Which is good.Your aerobic systems are much better at sustaining a very high percentage of their maximum than your anaerobic systems.

You might get out of breath, but over time you will adapt to being able to sustain the effort for a much longer period.

Interestingly, studies have shown[1] that the body is more efficient (in terms of oxygen saturation in the muscles) working at slightly lower cadences. So why do we see practically all pro cyclists riding at 90-100rpm? Effectiveness. At the lower cadences, there is also an increase in muscle fatigue. For a racing cyclist, it is vitally important to be as fresh as possible at the end of the race. Being slightly less efficient with your fuel/oxygen usage over 5 hours means you'll need to breathe a little harder, and maybe eat a little more. But that's infinitely preferable to rocking up at the sprint / last climb with wasted legs.

[1] The effect of cadence on cycling efficiency and local tissue... : The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research


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## spade2you

I actually participated in a study that found 60rpms at x% of max was metabolically more efficient than 80 and 100rpm. I forget the percentage of max, but it was something I could hold all day. That being said, it's hard to _prove_ much in a lot of cycling studies because there are many variables in a race scenario and most studies can only test 1-2 points at best.


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## spade2you

wesb321 said:


> There was another equally bad one in one of the mens crit that you must have also missed by leaving town right away. The last left turn before you hit Dickson St had a pile up. My friends father raced in the masters just after having a lung puncture in a previous crit, criterium crashes hurt but they don't kill ya!


I heard about that crash. Not a fan of those.


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## Chris-X

*Better link*



Local Hero said:


> Up the hill and into the wind: youtube.com/watch?v=YmQyP-Wg148


off the same page illustrating the need for small chainring. Look at the guys stalling out near the top.


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## Chris-X

spade2you said:


> I actually participated in a study that found 60rpms at x% of max was metabolically more efficient than 80 and 100rpm. I forget the percentage of max, but it was something I could hold all day. That being said, it's hard to _prove_ much in a lot of cycling studies because there are many variables in a race scenario and most studies can only test 1-2 points at best.


I don't doubt that. People act like 60 RPM is so incredibly slow. It's really not and it's very easy to pedal smoothly at that cadence.

On old flexy bikes lower RPM feels kind of strange but 30 years ago high cadence wasn't in vogue at all despite the less rigid frames. 

It seems kind of odd to me that with very stiff bikes people spin so fast but in the old days with flexy bikes people were pedaling a lot slower.

When I switch back and forth from my flexy, soft, old bike to my very stiff new bike, it seems that my pedaling has to be a lot more supple and athletic on the old bike. 

The speeds are the same but on the old bike I'm in cogs at least one or two teeth bigger all the time with slightly higher cadences. FWIW, maybe not much. 

To the O/P, don't worry about what chainring you're in. It's like being concerned with hitting a pitching wedge 150 yards. Who cares? If you need a 7 or 8 iron, that's what you hit. 

Cycling is an endurance sport. You want to be able to sustain your effort fairly evenly over the duration. The little ring isn't an ornament.


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## waldo425

I ride the small ring on every ride. I never just get in to the big ring and just mash it. That is a good way to hurt yourself - badly.


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## wesb321

Stage2 of the latest TDS explains all. Frank used himself up then at the last 1,000 feet of the stage end he bonks hard. He kicked some major ass and should have clearly won that race but saved nothing in the legs for the finale and the X factor. So he lost with the finish line in sight. The crappiest sprint in the world or a little more attention to the matches he was burning earlier would have saved his earned glory.


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## Duane Gran

The simple answer is riding the big ring will generally be faster but your muscles will fatigue more so there is a tipping point. Sometimes if I hit a group ride that isn't very fast (based on who shows up) I'll ride it in a harder gear to make things interesting. I have some routes where I try to keep it in the big ring to train my legs to push through the hard stuff. I know I can spin but raw strength is a weakness of mine as a small framed person. Those are my reasons for preferring big ring riding and bucking the high RPM trend of the last decade but it is a highly personal decision.


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## spade2you

Just got back from a time trial that was about 12 miles into a 20mph base with 33mph gusts. It was more like gusts with a few breaks here n' there. I dare ya to be in a 50, or 53(+) going into that! Between the heat and the wind, I spent a good chunk of time in the 39x23 or could shift to higher gears when the wind took a break. 

Subsequently, I spent more time in the 53x11 on the way back than I ever have and was having trouble generating that great of power. Hell of a strong wind!!! It would have been fun to see how fast I could have gone if I had that sort of tailwind for an entire ride. I'd think I'd need at least a 55t if I got to just do today's tailwind section. 

Also, it's no secret I'm a lightweight. Even with a reasonable front wheel, I had a bit of trouble in the crosswinds. A deeper front wheel and/or wet conditions would have almost certainly put me on the ground. I didn't get to see Andy Schleck's crash, but I can see how that might have happened.


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## wesb321

spade2you said:


> Also, it's no secret I'm a lightweight. Even with a reasonable front wheel, I had a bit of trouble in the crosswinds. A deeper front wheel and/or wet conditions would have almost certainly put me on the ground. I didn't get to see Andy Schleck's crash, but I can see how that might have happened.


I don't see how some of these guys are road riding the deep mm's. I'm not a small guy and just our cat4 sized descends will blow me around, shake and bake at 45+ mph is not on my cool list!


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## spade2you

wesb321 said:


> I don't see how some of these guys are road riding the deep mm's. I'm not a small guy and just our cat4 sized descends will blow me around, shake and bake at 45+ mph is not on my cool list!


I've got my Zipp Sub9 and Enve 65 tested to ~35mph crosswinds in a time trial with dry roads. I have a HED H3D that I simply can't use most of the time. I honestly attribute the wind to this purchase since it wasn't this windy the last couple of years. I've only gotten to use it under good wind conditions once. I have taken it out on a few 20mph crosswind days to see how it handles, which I learned I can't handle. It's better than learning it the hard way. I wouldn't have purchased it this year if I knew what the winds were going to do. 

In a mass start, a Mavic CCU is about as deep as I can go if it's mild-moderately windy. If it's really windy, I drop to low profile carbon tubulars. I suppose I could use my Enve 65s on a flat race with no wind, but neither of those will happen for me any time soon.


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## charliejonbicknell

If your climbing up a mountain you need to keep a high cadence, so yes!


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## tomutomu

*Sometimes*

Our team emphasizes LSD training in the offseason, so I will use it often then. Within the season, we will do high cadence training on weekends after our early morning TT training. 

It definitely helps with technique.


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## MattSoutherden

Little experiment on the way home:

600m hill, 9.5% - steady gradient (see pic)

I rode this at a comfortable cadence (average was 88rpm) in the lowest gear I have on my training bike (34x25).

What kind of effort is that? - 2:20 @ 5.63 W/Kg (428W)

Cadence to do that on a 53x23? 52rpm - Ouch!

So, yes, I use the small ring.


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## QQUIKM3

*Me too. .*



wblas3271 said:


> I ride a 52/42 and I use my small ring a lot.


Pretty much flat and windy where I live. 52/42 and a 12-23 Campagnolo cassette.


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## Rhymenocerus

As a smaller guy with less power, I use the small ring plenty, but have pretty high cadence.

I live in a very hilly area where 12% is pretty common though. There is no shame in using the correct gear to not blow out your legs needlessly. Its about riding and racing smart, not impressing people with a big gear.


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## MattSoutherden

Just for sh1ts 'n giggles, I rode a section of the same climb in the 50x23.

Cadence was a bit harder to keep high.  Average was 83 rpm.

Surprisingly, at the end of an interval session, I wasn't up for riding the whole section at this pace. But I did manage 30 seconds at 746 Watts (9.82 W/Kg).

Good luck riding the Mortirolo at that pace.


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## Saikidodo

depending what kind of riding you do, you can still go pretty quick with the small ring and keep up on rides. clearly with faster rides and races (the flat ones at least) the small one will only take you so far. i wouldnt worry too much which one you use though as long as you dont get dropped or blow up your legs. you paid for all those rings on your bike - use them all!


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## Andy Pancroft

Live in Denver...regular daily rides is a 50 mile loop - about 1900 feet of ascent, no big deal and stay in the big ring (53) for that ride. But, when making my way up into the hills and looking at doing anything at or above 5% grade, I jump down to the small ring (46). Gotta use your gears, man!!!


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## den bakker

Andy Pancroft said:


> Live in Denver...regular daily rides is a 50 mile loop - about 1900 feet of ascent, no big deal and stay in the big ring (53) for that ride. But, when making my way up into the hills and looking at doing anything at or above 5% grade, I jump down to the small ring (46). Gotta use your gears, man!!!


have fun with that.


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## cyclist brent

yeah, when I got my first bike it was from a guy who was on the US racing team. I.E. probably better than all of us. He had always mashed the big gears because, um, isn't that what the strong guys do? Yeah, so after he trashed his knees he couldn't race anymore and sold me his custom team bike. His one big advice to me was- whatever you do, make sure you spin those gears at a high rpm. Don't ruin your knees. I'll never forget that. I spin 93 to 105 averages. Anything below that feels like grinding. I also see that with a 53/39 and an 11/25, I am rarely in the big gear. I also hear people notice that all the time with some amazement since they think we all have to be in the big gear all the time. I think its a surprise that I have no problems riding with the "big gear" guys while in the small ring all day. I have quick shifts between speeds and only find myself wanting to be in the big gear with sustained efforts over 25 mph. Also when people start to speed up, I'm already in a high cadence so the switch to a faster gear is quick and doesn't wear me out. If you are grinding a hard gear with low rpm and have to speed up, its a lot harder. 

Bottom line: Focus on a good high cadence, then focus on power at the higher rpm. Base your gears on that and not on anything else. 

as an aside, I have a compact on my rig right now for some big time climbing i did recently. It's the best for the big climbs, but I'm not a fan on the other normal routes. I find myself having to shift both front and back again and again trying to maintain my cadence sweet spot. I'm usually in the 18-21 mph average over any distance. I'm going back to my standard 53/39 and shifting the front less again.


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## bayAreaDude

The majority of the time. It's easier to pedal.


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## designair

53 ring and 12-25. I use to spin a high cadence on climbs. I spin now on the flats.
A student of the sport told me I should work on out of seat climbing in the big ring during the off season.
one reason was it will allow me to add my body weight to the down stroke vs seated.
Im not saying to mash like Ulrich but not spin like a hamster in a wheel.
Your not going to be able to spin as fast out of the saddle vs seated.

The result is I am a much better climber, climbing mostly out of the saddle.
A side note a Cat 1 rider in our group who is arguable the best climber climbs the same way.


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## aclinjury

Interesting topic. I have 2 comments.

1) Regarding the pros using higher cadence. Pros do tend to use a cadence that is actually not optimal, ie., their cadence is a bit too high, so they will need to burn more energy (but save their legs). This is probably a necessary strategy for staged racers. But one this we have to keep in mind is that most pros are also major dopers and juicers. Some of the things that these guys do no doubt helped by dope. I wonder how they will do if they were clean? So just because the pros can do it, you shouldn't think you should too (unless you get access to the same dope and doctors).

2) Regarding the chain friction between using a big-big combo and small-small combo while maintaining the SAME ratio. The big-big combo will make the chain AND the cogs & rings last longer because tension force of the chain is distributed more evenly when the chain can engage more teeth (big-big). The drivetrain as a whole will have less resistance because when in big-big, the links do not bend as much as they travel through the rings and cogs. I have heard this reason, although I have not seen any data to back it up, but it does make sense. Think of a river flowing. All else being equal, the greatest resistance happens when the river bends, and the shaper the bends, the greater the reistance. Same concept with the chain and cogs.


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## jlandry

OP here.
Since starting this thread I've concentrated on using the small ring more. Although it's frustrating to see the sudden decline in speed going from big to small. It helps with staying fresh on longer rides. I'm still big-ringing it on short one hour rides. Good training for the MTB.


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## Adey

Why have a small ring fitted if you dont use it?
same as most guys have replied if the hill dictates - i will use the small ring
i was also told (fact or fiction)?? about keeping the chain level to prevent stretching


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## halfghan

I have been known to dip into the granny gear.


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## chuckice

I have been known to never leave it.


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## jlandry

That's sexy... I'd hit it!


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## wesb321

chuckice said:


> I have been known to never leave it.


Pretty machine! What is your opinion with the gearing, do you ever find yourself lacking the big ring when going above 25-30 mph or when down hills or anything like that? I would use this set up if I knew it would cover 40+mph in group rides etc.. with out having to always spin my legs off like a fixed gear.


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## durianrider

Get a cadence meter and a power tap and find out what your optimum cadence is that lets you produce your optimum climbing watts. Then choose gears accordingly. Easy.

After training with a powermeter I got compact cranks. Just like Contador. Higher cadence for higher watts.

In the race yesterday some guys were in the big ring whilst I was spinning the 34. They got shelled before the top of the climb as their legs went zub zub. Dance like Lance. Spinners are winners.


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## 41ants

Local Hero said:


> Standard crank with 11-28 in the back so I have plenty of range. Do I use the small ring? It depends...
> 
> Almost never in crits. Rarely on the local circuit race course, even with the punchy climbs. Definitely on hilly road races and our saturday morning hammerfest, which includes a significant, prolonged climb.
> 
> That said, I hate shifting the chainrings. Maybe electronic makes things easier, I don't know. But there seems to always be something wrong with shifting the load-bearing portion the chain. I haven't dropped my chain in forever and I still feel this way. I just don't like it, even with my sram red. I didn't like it with my DA 7800 either.
> 
> So here's the plan: Next time I get a new bike I'll convert my current steed into a 1X10, with a 44T or 48T up front. I've raced crits on a single speed with some success. My CX race rig is a 1X10. Why not a make a road 1X10? I've already thoughts about it.
> 
> 44X11 provides 108 gear inches and there are many bash guards available.
> 
> 48X11 gives 117.8 (higher than 52X12) but I would need a custom bash guard.


... 1x9 on my trail bike is awesome. I would be interested to hear your Feedback after you complete your project


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## MattSoutherden

wesb321 said:


> Pretty machine! What is your opinion with the gearing, do you ever find yourself lacking the big ring when going above 25-30 mph or when down hills or anything like that? I would use this set up if I knew it would cover 40+mph in group rides etc.. with out having to always spin my legs off like a fixed gear.


Looks like a hill climb bike to me.


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## jlandry

SRAM has a 1 X 11 for MTB, and you don't even need a bashguard to hold the chain on.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...k - Pinkbike&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13425249156911


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## chuckice

wesb321 said:


> Pretty machine! What is your opinion with the gearing, do you ever find yourself lacking the big ring when going above 25-30 mph or when down hills or anything like that? I would use this set up if I knew it would cover 40+mph in group rides etc.. with out having to always spin my legs off like a fixed gear.


I definitely couldn't do group rides with it...it's mainly a fun bike for climb repeats. That said, I could probably easily tweak the cassette/ring combo to get it close enough to roll for group rides. As is, no...


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## mariomal99

I only use the 53 ring on down hills and on flats with tailwind.

200 pounder here having a hard time using the big ring....gotta cut down the pasta and steaks lol


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## malanb

If you know how to train. You use the small ring too


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## cda 455

jlandry said:


> SRAM has a 1 X 11 for MTB, and you don't even need a bashguard to hold the chain on.
> SRAM XX1 Eleven Speed Drivetrain - First Look - Pinkbike



Nice  !


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## Fixed

*man up*

A 53 is my small ring -- I try to stay in my 67:


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## BassNBrew

Fixed said:


> A 53 is my small ring -- I try to stay in my 67:


That's sweet!


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## Fixed

*depends*

I think your question is really whether you should push big gears to get stronger. The answer it "sometimes, yes." If you are too frequently bailing out and using the small ring and just simply going slower than you should to get the training effect you want, then sure, you can artificially constrain yourself by staying in the big ring.

If you live in a place with no hills, that's something else. If it were me, I'd switch to a 53x42 and an 11-21 cassette, rather then just always staying in the big ring. You'll have more use for all that stuff on your bike you are hauling around.




jlandry said:


> I’ve been working on using only the big ring through the whole ride, even on climbs. (Compact crankset) I’ve noticed this is what the Hardmen in my group do, and they’re faster than I am. While improving, I find I’m climbing hills I thought I never could in such a big gear. There are no mountains where I am; otherwise it would be a different story. Just wondering what you guys do WRT big-ring-little-ring riding.


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## davidm724

Isn't the small ring harder? I'm new and probably a little retarded...


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## Sun Rider

I'm new to the compact setup and just learning how to use it smoothly. The jump, up or down, of the chain wheels seems too abrupt, too big a change, like going form 2nd to 5th with a car transmission. I'm wondering if I might develop the coordination to simultaneously change two cogs on the cluster as I make the change on the rings. I'm using a Di2.


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## spade2you

Sun Rider said:


> I'm new to the compact setup and just learning how to use it smoothly. The jump, up or down, of the chain wheels seems too abrupt, too big a change, like going form 2nd to 5th with a car transmission. I'm wondering if I might develop the coordination to simultaneously change two cogs on the cluster as I make the change on the rings. I'm using a Di2.


Campagnolo allows you to shift multiple gears in the rear cog at once. No real _need_ to go electric.


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## spade2you

davidm724 said:


> Isn't the small ring harder? I'm new and probably a little retarded...


Not the one up front.


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## ldotmurray

As long as you have reliable front shifting (which, it's amazing to me how many riders don't) then you should use all the gears that you paid for.[/QUOTE]

This by far has to be the best advice I've seen in these forums in a long time.


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## jlandry

Hi. OP here, I did my first Century yesterday on a pretty hilly course and let me tell ya, the use of the small ring was in full-effect. 
6 Hours.


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## spade2you

Did a very jagged TT yesterday and spent a lot of time in the small ring. Did quite well.


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## nOOky

I run a 53/39 and a 12-25 almost 99% of the time. Darn right I use the small ring. I recently did a ride with about 33 miles of climbing, I used that little ring a lot.
One thing about recreational riders and cadence. Don't be afraid to grind out a low cadence every once and a while. I've ridden with people who focus more on trying to maintain 90 rpm that just standing up and pushing over the top of a roller or small hill. Don't be afraid to actually make those muscles work a little bit when riding


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## NWS Alpine

When solo I am almost always in the small ring (53/39 and 12-23). Working on higher cadence now. I am also 205lbs so not the lightest. I do push the big ring when I have a tailwind or group rides. Usually solo I stick to 18-19 average which included stoplights etc. I try to keep the speed just over 20 when solo.


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## Imatk

I used to think riding in the small ring was some kind of defeat... That was until my knee got injured.

Now I ride in the gear that is most comfortable, and least likely to injure my knee again.


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## hamsey

Recovery rides I only use the small ring. I use whatever gear I need to keep my cadence in the mid 90's and 85 when climbing.


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## cyclesport45

Figure out your best cadence. Use the gears to stay there. If you want to go faster, pedal harder.


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