# Dura Ace 9000 C24 Vs Hed Ardennes Plus LT



## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm thinking about upgrading my wheels. I currently have Mavic Ksyriums. I'm thinking about the following two wheelsets:

Shimano Dura Ace 9000 C24
HED Ardennes Plus LT

I want a wheelset that is durable, fast, light, good for climbing, comfortable and an all-around performer. No specific purpose. 

First, are these wheels a noticeable step up from my Ksyriums? 

Second, my understanding is that the HED are nice because they're wider, but the DA have a better hub. Which is more important? The wider rim or the better hub? 

This article states that the DA are essentially the best sub $1k wheels on the market
BEST ROAD WHEEL UPGRADES UNDER $1000, £700, ?900 | In The Know Cycling

Anyone have any suggestions?


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## moose82 (Jun 4, 2012)

I haven't heard many bad things said about the DA wheels. I wish a local place carried HEDs so I could test ride a set. The Ardennes Black are gorgeous.

I'm in a similar boat as you but am looking at the C35s over the 24s.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

TiCoyote said:


> I'm thinking about upgrading my wheels. I currently have Mavic Ksyriums. I'm thinking about the following two wheelsets:
> 
> Shimano Dura Ace 9000 C24
> HED Ardennes Plus LT
> ...


IMO, the wheels you are listing are different but nice nevertheless. Whether or not they are a "noticeable step up" I would say it depends largely on how well you are tuned with your riding.
Most people, if they were to ride at night so they don't see the wheels they ride on, would not be able to tell the difference.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Incorrect info. Deleted.


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## moose82 (Jun 4, 2012)

TiCoyote said:


> Moose82, Merlin has the C35s on sale for $600. Shimano Dura Ace Sale Wheels | Merlin Cycles


I about crapped myself when I saw that price. That's just the front wheel


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

moose82 said:


> I about crapped myself when I saw that price. That's just the front wheel


Sorry, you're totally right! This threw me off: "Limited stock of Shimano Dura Ace front / rear wheels"


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## mmbuckwa (Dec 27, 2008)

When I added the wheelset to my shopping cart, it only lists the front wheel. Make sure you are getting both. $600 for a pair is a great deal.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I went from Mavic OPs to Kysriums to C24s.

the difference between the OPs and the Ks was noticeable, but I found the Ks to give a slightly harsh ride.

the C24s are very nice.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

They are both a step up from Mavic. I have the DA C35's and love them.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Upnorth said:


> They are both a step up from Mavic. I have the DA C35's and love them.


Why? What makes them better?


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Oxtox said:


> I went from Mavic OPs to Kysriums to C24s.
> 
> the difference between the OPs and the Ks was noticeable, but I found the Ks to give a slightly harsh ride.
> 
> the C24s are very nice.


+1 for C24s!


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

So I'm still curious.  What do the C24s do for you? I understand that the hubs are slicker and more reliable, and I know that they are a little lighter and perhaps more compliant. Is the ride noticeably more comfortable? Are you any faster? Do they climb better?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

"better" and "noticeable step up" are two different things.

Those are both better wheels than your Mavics. They simply use higher quality materials and make more sense from a design perspecitve.
That probably won't result in a noticeable step up though. Unless your current wheel is flexing to much and is a complete missmatch for your weight and riding style these would feel the same to you I think.

If you want noticeable I'd suggest focusing on tires if you have any room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with new wheels or better wheels simply for the sake or owning better wheels but just don't do it with the expectation of there being a resulting improvement in performance that you'll notice.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Jay Strongbow said:


> If you want noticeable I'd suggest focusing on tires if you have any room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with new wheels or better wheels simply for the sake or owning better wheels but just don't do it with the expectation of there being a resulting improvement in performance that you'll notice.


Agreed.

Why buy new wheels? I can think of four basic reasons: durability, lighter weight, aerodynamics, comfort.

I'm doubtful that either the Shimano or HED wheels will have better durability than the Mavic wheels. This is a wash IMO.

Lighter weight? Unless you're a racer or climber who will notice the effects of lighter rims (not so much lighter hubs), then lighter weight is mostly a non-factor. _If_ lighter weight is important, then the C24 win here because their rims are lighter than the others.

Aerodynamics? None of the wheels under consideration are particularly aerodynamic, so again I believe this is a wash. 

Comfort? This is where most riders will notice a difference if they're going from narrow rims to wider rims _and tires_ running at lower air pressure. This is where the HED Belgium will shine over the C24 (and I own both...). PS - you can have a custom wheel set built with HED Belgium rims and DA 9000 hubs. Then, you have the best of both worlds.

Jay Strongbow made an excellent suggestion regarding tires. Try using wider tires than you are presently using, and running lower air pressure. Do this for a little while before you pull the trigger on new wheels.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Thanks, Jay Strongbow and TVAD. These are both good explanations and reasons. 

I do find the Mavics to be a little harsh, and I also notice improvement in climbing and acceleration when I go from a heavier wheel to a lighter wheel. 

I might be falling into the trap of just _wanting _something new. I've heard a lot of anecdotal examples of people finding wider wheels to be _better_, either through aerodynamics, comfort, handling, or all three. That's why I started looking at the HED wheels. However, when I started reading reviews of the Ardennes, I basically found a lot of suggestions that although they are excellent wheels, the C24s are really the best wheel in that price range. So really, would the wider rim lead to enough improvement to make the ride noticeably more enjoyable, or does the quality of the DA wheel outweigh the advantages of HED's wider rim. 

In response to tires, I currently ride a 25mm Continental GP 4000 w 80 psi in the front and 90 in the rear. This works out as the most comfortable and fastest tire and pressure for me. Since it's a wide tire, I wondered if a wider rim would do anything for me. Maybe my tire is too wide for my rim, or maybe a wider rim would allow me to better use my tire's full potential.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

TiCoyote said:


> ...when I started reading reviews of the Ardennes, I basically found a lot of suggestions that although they are excellent wheels, the C24s are really the best wheel in that price range.


I don't necessarily agree with the idea that the C24 are better wheels than the HED wheels. IMO, they are pretty equal in quality with the caveat that the Shimano DA hubs are superior. Also, keep in mind that the C24 spokes are proprietary. If you break a C24 spoke, then it will cost a little more and take a little longer to repair. On the other hand, spokes use on the HED wheel will be less expensive and easier to repair by a LBS. 

Think about the custom HED Belgium/DA 9000 wheel set I mentioned earlier. They'll cost a bit more than factory wheels, but you'll have a super nice wheel set that can be easily repaired and tuned at your local shop. Wheelbuilder.com is a possible source for these wheels.



TiCoyote said:


> In response to tires, I currently ride a 25mm Continental GP 4000 w 80 psi in the front and 90 in the rear. This works out as the most comfortable and fastest tire and pressure for me. Since it's a wide tire, I wondered if a wider rim would do anything for me.


In this case, you're already experiencing the benefits of wider tires. You won't notice a significant difference with wider rims, but the 25mm tires will fit better (less bulb shape) on a wider rim, and will likely handle a little better on turns. Again...not a big deal...you're really looking through a magnifying glass to find a reason to buy new wheels (but there's nothing wrong with that if you just _want_ new wheels).


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

TiCoyote said:


> Thanks, Jay Strongbow and TVAD. These are both good explanations and reasons.
> 
> I do find the Mavics to be a little harsh, and I also notice improvement in climbing and acceleration when I go from a heavier wheel to a lighter wheel.
> 
> I might be falling into the trap of just _wanting _something new. I've heard a lot of anecdotal examples of people finding wider wheels to be _better_, either through aerodynamics, comfort, handling, or all three. That's why I started looking at the HED wheels. However, when I started reading reviews of the Ardennes, I basically found a lot of suggestions that although they are excellent wheels, the C24s are really the best wheel in that price range. So really, would the wider rim lead to enough improvement to make the ride noticeably more enjoyable, or does the quality of the DA wheel outweigh the advantages of HED's wider rim.


Not that you asked for my wheel buying philosophy but a slightly different tact might suite you so I'll mention it.

If you ride a lot rims come and go but hubs should last pretty much forever. So I don't really think in terms of buying "wheels" but hubs first and foremost then worry about which rims to get. That way, with good hubs being a given I can know I'm all set and just replace rims as the wear out or die in a crash and also have the option to change it up should I want to try something different.

The hubs on the C24 are high quality but I wouldn't consider them to be 'forever' hubs because the design and low spoke count isn't versitile so you're stuck with needing to get the same rim (I think).

The hubs on the Hed wheels are unknown to me. I've never heard anything bad about them though.

In other words consider what TVAD said about DA hubs and Hed Rims. Or a number of other hubs such as DT Swiss and White Industries.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

tvad said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Why buy new wheels? I can think of four basic reasons: durability, lighter weight, aerodynamics, comfort.
> 
> ...


Aero? Push? Sorry the Ardennes win. Leading edge is much more rounded than either DA or Mavic AND added width make rim+tire profile more aero.

How about adding serviceability into the equation? HED wins that as spokes are not proprietary and rims are generally available (depending on spoke count). 

I would agree that Belgium hoops and DA hubs are a great combo.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Aero? Push? Sorry the Ardennes win. Leading edge is much more rounded than either DA or Mavic AND added width make rim+tire profile more aero.


He is answering in the context of responding to someone who asked about noticeable differences riding. No one is going to notice the difference in aero between any wheels being discussed here (or any wheels period for that matter).


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Jay Strongbow said:


> He is answering in the context of responding to someone who asked about noticeable differences riding. *No one is going to notice the difference in aero between any wheels being discussed here...*


^Yes, that's correct. 

The HED wheels are more aero, that is true; but very few riders, if any, will notice it...so IMO the aero differences between the three wheels under consideration are negligible and a non-factor in a buying decision.

Wheelbuilder.com has HED Belgium rims in 20, 24, 28 & 32 hole drillings. They also have DA 9000 front hubs with 24, 28 & 32 hole drillings, and DA 9000 rear hubs with 24, 28 & 32 hole drillings. Wheelbuilder has several hub options with 20 hole drillings, including DT Swiss, White Industries and Chris King.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Jay Strongbow said:


> He is answering in the context of responding to someone who asked about noticeable differences riding. No one is going to notice the difference in aero between any wheels being discussed here (or any wheels period for that matter).


Fair enough, as we are only talking a couple watts from HED to DA and then another watt or two down to the Mavics. (at 20+mph)

I cannot say I am any faster on my HED's vs my DA7801, Easton EA90sl, or Rolf Prima Elans, but they do seem stiffer, more comfortable (lower pressure) and inspire more confidence in corners. Granted all of that is subjective.


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## mikiek (Aug 18, 2014)

TiCoyote said:


> I'm thinking about upgrading my wheels. I currently have Mavic Ksyriums. I'm thinking about the following two wheelsets:
> 
> Shimano Dura Ace 9000 C24
> HED Ardennes Plus LT
> ...


Well, you could do what I did. Dura-Ace hubs with Belgium+ rims. They came out just under $1K.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

It looks like I can get the HEDs domestically for around $750, and the DAs for about the same price if I order from one of the shops in the UK. That would probably mean that I wouldn't get a warranty with the DA wheels. 

Wheelbuilder doesn't offer an option of Shimano hubs on its custom builds, but they do offer them on their website, so I could probably call and get a quote. 

Prowheelbuilder offers this combo for around $1k including shipping, but the lowest spoke count I can get is 24 front and 24 rear. 

Weight is slightly lower than the Ardennes, but higher than the DA C24. 

The way I see it, the C24 is probably a better wheel. More reliable, better hub, lighter. But at 150 grams lighter than my Ksyriums, and a similar stiffness, it's not going to feel much different. 

The HED wheels will feel different than my Mavics, but I'm not sure that it's different *enough* to make it worthwhile. 

I could also have DA hubs built to Pacenti SL 23 rims for around $935, or DT Swiss 460 rims for around $825. 

The other thing is that the C24s are the only option with straight-pull hubs. And those look pretty badass.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

TiCoyote said:


> It looks like I can get the HEDs domestically for around $750, and the DAs for about the same price if I order from one of the shops in the UK. That would probably mean that I wouldn't get a warranty with the DA wheels.


Go to Texascyclesport.com and sign up for emails. They often offer C24 wheels for $750 or less with free shipping and no sales tax. Full warranty.



TiCoyote said:


> Wheelbuilder doesn't offer an option of Shimano hubs on its custom builds, but they do offer them on their website, so I could probably call and get a quote.


Yes, you can get a custom HED/DA9000 wheelset at Wheelbuilder. Call them and ask for their best price on the build. That's the best way to shop at Wheelbuilder despite the slick website. 



TiCoyote said:


> Prowheelbuilder offers this combo for around $1k including shipping, but the lowest spoke count I can get is 24 front and 24 rear.


Correct. 24 is the lowest spoke count on DA9000 hubs for custom builds regardless of who builds the wheels.



TiCoyote said:


> The way I see it, the C24 is probably a better wheel. More reliable, better hub, lighter.


Are you referring the the factory HED wheels? If so, I would agree.



TiCoyote said:


> I could also have DA hubs built to Pacenti SL 23 rims for around $935, or DT Swiss 460 rims for around $825.


That's a viable option. However, do a search for threads about the Pacenti SL23 rims. Some users have reported that mounting tires is difficult. 



TiCoyote said:


> The other thing is that the C24s are the only option with straight-pull hubs. And those look pretty badass.


You could always do a custom HED Belgium build with DT Swiss 240 straight pull front and rear hubs...and in that case, you could build a 20 spoke front wheel. _Those_ would be some badass wheels.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

These are all good and valid suggestions. I suppose another way to go, which is what I was originally thinking anyway, would be to get a Powertap GS rear and a 240 front, laced to Hed Rims. Although, now I've doubled the price and we're in $1500 territory. Still, that give the significant advantage of adding a power meter.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

TiCoyote said:


> I suppose another way to go, which is what I was originally thinking anyway, would be to get a Powertap GS rear and a 240 front, laced to Hed Rims.


I did just that two months ago (rear wheel Powertap GS/HED Belgium).


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

tvad said:


> I did just that two months ago.


If we're talking $1500 though, I could find a cheaper Powertap wheel or set on special or used for $600 and then buy either the C24s or the LT set for another $750, and we're still in the same range. Then I have a PT wheel for training drills, and a pair of lighter and/or more aero wheels for faster rides.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

TiCoyote said:


> If we're talking $1500 though, I could find a cheaper Powertap wheel or set on special or used for $600 and then buy either the C24s or the LT set for another $750, and we're still in the same range.


My _rear_ Powertap GS/HED wheel (24 spoke) from Wheelbuilder cost just under $1150 including tax and shipping...and that price reflects a discount. So, I'd say if you can get a pair of wheels with HED rims and GS/DT Swiss 240 hubs for $1500 you're doing very well.

Good luck with whatever direction you take.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

One more thought. What about the FLO30 wheels? Same wide track as the HED, similar weight, more aero, lower price.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

TiCoyote said:


> If we're talking $1500 though, I could find a cheaper Powertap wheel or set on special or used for $600 and then buy either the C24s or the LT set for another $750, and we're still in the same range. *Then I have a PT wheel for training drills, and a pair of lighter and/or more aero wheels for faster rides*.


I don't get it. Do you only do slow training and/or would have no interest in what powere numbers are for fast rides?

I don't care about power numbers ever but if I did I'd think I'd be more interested in what the numbers were on fast rides.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

White T-11/Belgium build should be at, or just below $700 @ prowheelbuilder, with their current sale. I'm happy with mine...2nd set of Belgium's built with Campy hubs however.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

colnagoG60 said:


> White T-11/Belgium build should be at, or just below $700 @ prowheelbuilder, with their current sale. I'm happy with mine...2nd set of Belgium's built with Campy hubs however.


^Tried this.

HED Belgium C2 rims (20/24)
White Industries T11 front/rear hubs
Sapim CX-Ray spokes
Sapim Alloy Nipples
Velox Rim tape

Total = $800.92 after 8% discount.

Not sure how you arrived at $700, but maybe you can share the details of the build.

In any case, $800.92 (no sales tax) for the build is a good price, IMO.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

I did 24/28, DT 14/15 silver spokes, silver brass nipples, T-11 polished hubs...$769, pre 8% discount. Missed the CX ray preference.

FWIW, excel sports has their "Belgium build" (aka "Kermesse", DT 14/15, on Ultegra hubs for $509, DA hubs $710....if you want to go the thrifty route.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Considering other wide rim wheels. What about the FLO 30 or the Neugent A310CW Specifications ???


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

TiCoyote said:


> If we're talking $1500 though, I could find a cheaper Powertap wheel or set on special...


Prowheelbuilder has a sale on Powertap G3 wheel sets. Depending on the front hub, rims and spokes selected, you can get a wheel set for under $1000.


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