# Sick of Getting Dropped



## MyBlueTrek (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Ladies,

I know that this topic has probably been addressed in magazines, other forums, etc...but I thought I would ask you all. 

Today I went on a century ride with some guy friends. These guy friends have are not thin and do not eat healthy. They only ride once a month if they have time. I ride 3-4 times a week and eat VERY healthy (except for the occasional glass of wine). WHY am I STILL getting dropped? These guys have dropped me for 3 years EVERY ride..even mountain bike rides! 

Is there some physical difference relating to cycling between a man and woman? What have you ladies done when confronted with this issue, if at all?


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

MyBlueTrek said:


> Is there some physical difference relating to cycling between a man and woman? What have you ladies done when confronted with this issue, if at all?


Yes, there are significant physiological differences between men and women related to cycling. Without knowing more information, I can only surmise why you're getting dropped by some dudes with beer guts that rarely ride.

1) The route is flat. Weight is less important on flats. It comes into play mainly during climbs where the power-to-weight ratio is much more important. If you find yourself dropping THEM up climbs, this is probably part of the issue.

2) They are absolutely burying themselves to drop you, and/or you are simply out for a Sunday ride (ie: not putting out enough effort).

3) They are riding a lot more than you assume and may have much more muscle and aerobic capacity than you think (regardless of their beer guts).

4) You're not consuming enough calories before and during the ride. It's also important to refuel after, but not having enough calories in you on the ride will prevent you from riding your best.

It could be any, all, or none of the above. If it bothers you that you're getting dropped, you can choose to: train harder, find another ride where you won't get dropped, or just suck it up! Men and women have substantial physiological differences when it comes to sports, which is why sports are generally gender segregated (one notable exception being golf).


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## CyreneSong (Aug 10, 2005)

Men and women are very different physiologically. Men have a greater percentage of muscle mass (in general) and usually outperform women in most physical competitions. Of course there are always exceptions. 

You've got two choices. Either train your ass off and get faster or find slower (or more accomodating) friends to ride with. Unless it's a serious training ride, or you are just tediously slow, they're being jerks for dropping you constantly. 

Was there an understanding that you were going to ride as a group for the century? 
Maybe you need to speak up about your concerns...


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## MyBlueTrek (Jul 27, 2007)

Voneity,

You are right....the route today was flat. I probably didn't eat a good enough breakfast. And I probably do need to suck it up! I would like to fine a good women's road club here in Phoenix. 

Maybe that will be a goal for '08 though...train harder and fine a women's road club!

You DO bring up some great points which is what I was hoping for!

Thanks!
Heidi


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

Heidi,

My wife had a similar issue to this. We live in a FLAT place and she was having the same issues. She is a strong rider, strong enough to keep up with me on training rides that I wouldn't call easy.

Because of a our scheduals she would ride on different days and we would ride togather on weekends. After getting her a powertap I found that unless she was riding with me or the group she was JRA. Even though she was riding 5 days a week she was not getting enough intensity. She was training to ride slow. We put her on a "program" where she had 1-2 "hard" days a week. These included a bit shorter rides at much higher intensity.

Within 6 weeks she was finishing the "dick measuring contest" rides as she called them :lol:. It is a "training" ride thats a psudo race pace (I thing Tuscon has one of these on Saturday mornings). Which brings up another point...............I hadn't noticed untill she brought it up. Don't discount the power of the mind. She knew a bunch of test. fueled guys were going to hammer on a ride and she would get intimidated immidiatly and start questioning if she was strong enough etc. Once she learned to ride in a pack efficently, how to draft better, and knew she was strong, she had no problem staying with the guys. She wasn't trading 450 watt pulls but she was successfully and easily finishing the rides. Later these rides served as one of her "hard" days. Now she is a Cat 3 and is a phenominal climber (shes tiny) she was beeming with pride when my teammates asked her along for our climbing camp in the hills because she was/is stong in the hills. It was fun to watch her stick it to a 195lb sprinter on an 8 mile climb that was pretty steep. Nothing hurts a guys ego like getting "chicked" and she gave it to them. To further it, she is a fiercely competitive person, she hates losing the race to the closest batheroom when we get home from a movie :lol:.

At any rate, the short of the long is try to bring up your intensity one day a week or so and ride with stonger rides and you get faster. You may never be able trade pulls with those guys (all though it sounds like you might) but they surely won't be able to drop you anymore. Also, don't feel intimidated by those guys. Being in Tuscon will surely play to you benifit with size (Mt.Lemon) and groups (lots o strong riders, male and female). 

good luck with the training
Starnut
:thumbsup:

Edit: I thought you wrote Tuscon not Phoenix but you should be able to find the groups no problem.


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## MyBlueTrek (Jul 27, 2007)

STARNUT said:


> Heidi,
> 
> My wife had a similar issue to this. We live in a FLAT place and she was having the same issues. She is a strong rider, strong enough to keep up with me on training rides that I wouldn't call easy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great story! That makes me feel better. I would like to ask you a question. How would I up my intensity? I normally ride anywhere from 20-30 mile rides at 15 mph on mostly flat surfaces (Phoenix is flat, not a lot of hill options). Should I up my mileage, miles per hour, or both?


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

MyBlueTrek said:


> Thanks for the great story! That makes me feel better. I would like to ask you a question. How would I up my intensity? I normally ride anywhere from 20-30 mile rides at 15 mph on mostly flat surfaces (Phoenix is flat, not a lot of hill options). Should I up my mileage, miles per hour, or both?


You need to train for what you want to be able to ride. If you want to ride 30 miles fast, train by riding shorter miles fast. If you want to be able to ride a century at a moderate pace, you mainly need to ride longer at a more moderate pace. Some interval training will help you hang onto a wheel when the guys decide to drop the hammer, in either case. Post this question over on the Coaching forum to get some more specific training advice.


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## dom3333 (Mar 1, 2006)

Blue first I am a guy, I live in Phoenix also and have the same problem. There are quite a few hills in the area you can ride, try South Mountain, Usery Pass, Cave Creek and North bound on Scottsdale Rd. You can also try Bicycle Ranch in Scottsdale they have a Saturday womens ride as well as a begginers ride. The biggest thing that did helped me was uping my intensidy on a couple of rides a week. Good Luck and remember to also have fun.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

dom3333
I like your avitar, I have one of those too

Starnut


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Blue: Don't limit your choices to a "women's" club. Nothing says you can't ride with guys and do just as well as they do, within the limits of your ability. There is nothing better to build speed than to do regular rides with people who are faster than you are, at least when you first start riding with them. Find a group that rides on a schedule that fits yours and go with them. You may get dropped a few times at the beginning, but so long as you know the way home, before long, you will have improved to hang in for the whole ride. 

Personally, I find that I can't exert myself on a solo ride to the extent that I can when riding with a group, even if its only 3 or 4 of us on a ride. Pretty soon, you'll be the one dropping the guys on the centuries.


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## MyBlueTrek (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the advice. I should be happy I rode the full 100 miles as most people in our club road the 64 mile. 

I definantly had to work harder to keep up with the group I was riding with!


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Pride*



MyBlueTrek said:


> ...Is there some physical difference relating to cycling between a man and woman? What have you ladies done when confronted with this issue, if at all?


Dont forget the mental side of cycling. A smart rider can ride for a long time with stronger cyclists. 

First off is learning how to draft. Not just sitting on the wheel in front of you but truly reading the wind and finding the optimum place in line three or four wheels back. You also have to be relaxed when in a paceline so you are not wasting energy using a death grip on the bars. 

Know your body. This comes down to fueling yourself properly before and during the ride. 

Pride is a huge factor that may impact your ability to hang:

1) Guys will bury themselves just to impress a woman on a ride or not to get passed/dropped by a woman. Learn how to use a man's weak mind against him. Women will bury themselves to prove they are just a strong as a guy. Don't let your head beat you.

2) Weak riders will not ask the strong guys to slow down just a bit so they can comfortably hang, especially early in the day. Ask them too take it easier early in the ride. Pride makes it really hard to ask for a slower pace. Often times if you are pushing the limit someone else is too and they will appreciate the pace dropping 0.5 - 1.0 mph.

3) Using the big ring because everyone else is may not make sense if you have a good spin. When working on the other fitness tips mentioned be sure you are also addressing your cadence. Know the tools on your bike and use your gears effectively.

4) Become a wheelsucker, there is no need to "do your share" if you are not as strong as the rest of the group. Pride will make you want to take your pulls. Some groups look down on riders that never take a pull irrespective of varying strengths within the group. If you must take a pull because of your pride or group dynamics always get yourself to the front for the tailwind section or the gentle grade. By being upfront for the climbing sections you can control the pace, limiting to what you are capable of. The tailwind sections are easier to lead for a weaker rider as you are not fighting the wind. You will never be able to keep a pace to please the beer gut guys on the downhill so just sit in and follow.

5) Don't hide in shame at the back of the pack. The worst place to be for a weaker rider is in the back of a big paceline. Instead find yourself a spot midpack, about three or four wheels back. This is the sweetspot that gives you all the benefit of the draft without the slinky effect on the back. In addition if you hit a hard stretch and start to falter you drift back through the group rather than losing contact and getting dropped. 

6) Learn how to corner so you are not having to close a gap after every turn in the route. In addition, anticipating the corner lets you move around in the pack to optimizing your position, either moving up or back, or switching sides so you are on the sheltered side of a double paceline.

7) Ask for help. In addition to getting some coaching advice on training be sure to get some advice on the tactical side of riding. Many of the things I mentioned you cannot learn from reading. You need someone that has a good deal of experience and the desire to teach a newbie to observe you on the ride and teach you those subtle things that save energy.

Use your head as you endeavor to hang with these guys. It will take a while to learn all the tips you need but the learning can take place at the same time as you are training your legs. *Ask for help*. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Good Luck


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## karategirl (Aug 27, 2006)

Maybe try some intervals. You need to up the intensity. Maybe try 20-30 seconds as hard as you can go, then spin for a bit, then repeat. I used to get dropped all the time, too, but through a combination of sheer stubbornness and a lot of intervals, I can now hang with the guys. Maybe get something like The Cyclist's training bible by Joe Friel--that will help you decide what you need the most work on and how to improve it. 

How long have you been riding? Some improvement will come if you just ride a lot.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

MyBlueTrek said:


> Hello Ladies,
> 
> I know that this topic has probably been addressed in magazines, other forums, etc...but I thought I would ask you all.
> 
> ...


Maybe train with the guys who drops you?


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## karategirl (Aug 27, 2006)

I just re-read your post. Are you *sure they only ride once a month if they have time? Because your average recreational rider doesn't ride once a month for an hour or two and then suddenly decide to do a century. 

On my group ride, before it starts pretty much everyone is moaning about how they're "not riding much" , then they take off like they were Tour de France contenders. I think cyclists in general tend to B.S. about how much they ride--either saying they NEVER get to ride so they look phenomenal on the rides they do go on, or by saying they ride like, 50 miles a day.*


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm a guy and about half the people in our regular group are ladies.

The lesson everyone has to learn in group rides is that if you most likely can't drop off 10-20 yards for any reason and catch up by working hard. Especially if the hammer is on the front.

The time to bury yourself is when you are staying in the draft of the last wheel available. Don't let a gap develop at all costs. That's the best chance you have of NOT getting dropped.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

karategirl said:


> I just re-read your post. Are you *sure they only ride once a month if they have time? Because your average recreational rider doesn't ride once a month for an hour or two and then suddenly decide to do a century.
> 
> On my group ride, before it starts pretty much everyone is moaning about how they're "not riding much" , then they take off like they were Tour de France contenders. I think cyclists in general tend to B.S. about how much they ride--either saying they NEVER get to ride so they look phenomenal on the rides they do go on, or by saying they ride like, 50 miles a day.*


*
absolutely. guys lie constantly, reflexively, and compulsively about how much they're training and how strong they're feeling. no guy will set himself up to fail -- no guy will say, I'm feeling good, and only THEN, when he doesn't look so good, have to think up his excuses. Get em lined up ahead of time.

More seriously, folks, one of the biggest differences I perceive between male and female riders is that a guy goes out on a ride expecting to suffer. He hopes that he will be lucky enough not to be the only one, but that's about it. Women, save for a select few, seem surprised by this and discouraged when it hurts. Girls, let me tell you -- it hurts.

Some women seem to thrive on the pain as much as the boys do. These women are a joy to ride with, and are very much welcomed (even if you sometimes get dropped, we will go back for you, I promise, out of respect for sharing that pain gene). These women also should be forced to wear identification -- a badge, a ribbon, somethign that says, "Trains With Boys" -- because these women tend to kick the bejeezus out of girls that train only with girls. This isn't entirely so, but it's true enough.

You have to suffer to go faster. It's kind of a rule.*


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

I found that intervals absolutely help in the long run, just make sure you have enough recovery to reap the benefits. 

Many people overlook shifting as a skill that is as crucial as pedaling itself. Find where your "zone" in terms of cadence is. You should have an idea without having to resort to expensive testing just based on your aerobic and anaerobic capabilities. 

Using that, remember that cadence dictates your shifting. Sometimes a shift will feel easier or harder than the increment you wish you could drop or up to, but that's life right.

Better shifting, especially on longer rides will make you more efficient, and sometimes that is the difference between getting dropped as opposed to your fitness.

At least that how I stopped getting dropped. I thought it was my fitness initially but it was rather my inexperience and technique that made me slower/less strong.


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## android (Nov 20, 2007)

MyBlueTrek said:


> Thanks for the great story! That makes me feel better. I would like to ask you a question. How would I up my intensity? I normally ride anywhere from 20-30 mile rides at 15 mph on mostly flat surfaces (Phoenix is flat, not a lot of hill options). Should I up my mileage, miles per hour, or both?


Just my opinion, but 15 mph avg on flat ground is a little on the slow side if you want to hang with a pack on the weekends. Probably should be looking to up your average speed to between 18 and 20 depending on ride length. 20 at 20 mph up to 30 at 18 mph. Mileage is fine in my opinion, If you can ride a fast 30 by yourself, you have enough total energy to ride with the pack a lot farther when drafting.


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

android said:


> Just my opinion, but 15 mph avg on flat ground is a little on the slow side if you want to hang with a pack on the weekends. Probably should be looking to up your average speed to between 18 and 20 depending on ride length. 20 at 20 mph up to 30 at 18 mph. Mileage is fine in my opinion, If you can ride a fast 30 by yourself, you have enough total energy to ride with the pack a lot farther when drafting.


Now that all depends on how windy it is, doesn't it?

Also, not knowing what "pack" she's riding with, it's hard to know if 15 mph is on the slow side or not. Not every group rides a the same speed. Our recreational bike club around here has 12 mph rides as well as 15-17 mph rides and above. Not everybody has the need for speed.


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Which Speed...*



vonteity said:


> Now that all depends on ...


It also depends on which speed you are looking at. Is this the average speed at the end of the ride or what you see on your computer when you look down? Its been a couple of years since I rode with a computer but IIRC usually the speed you saw as you were cruising along was 1.5-2.0 mph faster than what showed up as the _average_ when you scrolled through the displays back in the parking lot. Of course there are many variables at play here too. The OP should focus on her own goals/speed and not worry about what folks post as their _speed_ on the internet.


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## android (Nov 20, 2007)

vonteity said:


> Now that all depends on how windy it is, doesn't it?


Most people end up where they started for daily traing rides, so wind and hills are a wash. On a route that I ride weekly, I've got tailwind from 5-8 mph outbound, so average on the speedometer at the turn around is above 20 but drops down to 20ish on the return trip. A tailwind is not an excuse to coast.

I stand by 20 @ 20 as a good goal for flatlanders under most conditions.


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

android said:


> Most people end up where they started for daily traing rides, so wind and hills are a wash. On a route that I ride weekly, I've got tailwind from 5-8 mph outbound, so average on the speedometer at the turn around is above 20 but drops down to 20ish on the return trip. A tailwind is not an excuse to coast.
> 
> I stand by 20 @ 20 as a good goal for flatlanders under most conditions.


I've been out riding many times were the wind changes direction, and/or I take a different route back and end up with a headwind both ways or a headwind, but no tailwind. (It never seems to work out in my favor!) With hills, you don't make all the time you lose climbing them up on the descent. When I ride in Florida, my average speed is usually 20-25 mph. When I ride in hillier areas, My speed ranges between 15-19 mph. If the hills were a wash as you say, the mph should stay the same, regardless of terrain... but it doesn't.

You may stand by your "20 @ 20", but whether or not it's a good goal depends on what your goal is!


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

winds are never a wash. not only do winds shift all the time, but, because of the headwind we create by moving forward and the exponential increase in air friction, a headwind always is going to hurt you more than a tailwind will help you. same reason that going down doesn't help you as much as going up hurts -- wind resistance is a greater factor the faster you go. Add to that that you might be climbing for ten minutes and descending for five -- working for ten, recovering for five. 

but the biggest point Von makes is the best -- whether or not that speed is a goal depends on what your overall goal is.


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## indysteel (Jul 21, 2006)

android said:


> Just my opinion, but 15 mph avg on flat ground is a little on the slow side if you want to hang with a pack on the weekends. Probably should be looking to up your average speed to between 18 and 20 depending on ride length. 20 at 20 mph up to 30 at 18 mph. Mileage is fine in my opinion, If you can ride a fast 30 by yourself, you have enough total energy to ride with the pack a lot farther when drafting.


Without getting sucked into another debate about "average speeds", the above sounds about right to me. As soon as I was able to keep up during training rides averaging about 20 mph over 24 (flat) miles and 18 plus mph for longer rides, I had enough in me to more or less hang with "the boys." Not all boys, of course, but a solid group of them.

The group of guys I ride with are all strong and, on most days, could easily drop me if they were so inclined. It's not that they don't expect me to pull my weight, but they also protect me when necessary. No matter how much protection they provide, however, it still hurts and if I've slacked off on my training, it hurts even more. I make it a point to be good and warmed up when I meet them, and I know when to pass on an invitation if I'm not prepared to suffer. 

My best advice is to start riding regularly with groups that are faster than you for short (20-25 mile) training rides. Be prepared to get dropped but don't take it personally. Practice how to ride safely and effectively in a paceline. I don't have the patience for interval work myself, but it too would be helpful. Pulling at the front of a fast paceline (esp. into the wind), riding on windy days and climbing can all serve as intervals IMO, however. 

Of course, there's more to getting dropped than not being fast enough to keep up. I have to say that I feel pretty damn lucky to have found guys to ride with as patient, kind and helpful as the group I've got. The first time they invited me to join them was a Red Letter Day, let me tell you. It's great if you can find people to ride with who really appreciate and the ins and outs of riding in a group. Even the fastest of guys have bad days or bad moments, but if your group has your back, they won't drop you. Conversely, even slower riders don't always know how to ride contently in a group. It helps to know what type of rider you're with and to know what each other's expectations are.

Good luck and have fun.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*My condolences...*



STARNUT said:


> Nothing hurts a guys ego like getting "chicked" and she gave it to them. To further it, she is a fiercely competitive person, she hates losing the race to the closest batheroom when we get home from a movie :lol:.


What goes around comes around. Everyone gets swept up by the "broom wagon" in one form or another eventually...

everyone is humbled in the end.

Good Luck!


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## lawrence (May 17, 2005)

I'm a man and a ride leader for a local bike club. I run an unusual ride. It's a training ride to teach people how to ride faster, ride smarter, ride more efficiently, nutrition, proper body positioning, riding techniques. It takes me months to come up with training drills and a progressive schedule for my rides. In between some advice here there is some great advice about increasing your intensity.

I have some thoughts and first some insight. Unless you are up in the professional ranks, there is no reason for a woman not to ride faster than a man. There are a number of woman in my club that just smoke me and it's not because of leg strength. A big misconception. I have probably the strongest legs, or close to it, in my bike club. I leg press over 1,000 lbs, I use to work out leg pressing 3 sets, 15 reps, of 800 lbs. so it's not leg strength. It's leg endurance. Work on that.

Try some shorter or slower club rides and spin, over 85 rps, over 90 rpms. Work on your cardio and leg endurance. If you don't have cadence on your cyclometer, get a new one. I recommend Blackburn.

Work on interval sprints and speed sprints and speed routes. PIck a 4 or 5 mile route and do it as fast as you can, always trying to push yourself, then go twice or three times around.

Ride with a faster group knowing you are going to get dropped but keep up with them for as long as you can. Go with a group that's one level above you.

I find the mistakes that riders make the most are improper shifting, improperly using the right gears, not being in the right gears at the right times, all related here, and cadence, they don't spin fast enough or they are spinning too fast and tiring themselves out before the end of the ride and it affects their cardio. Another mistake is insufficient carbs and they lack the power or stamina to make it or ride at that level.

By the way, I rode 6-7 days a week in Spring, Summer, and Fall. My rides are between 40-60 miles with a 60-80 mile on the weekend. And there are many women that just blow past me. The more I teach, the more I ride, the more I try different things, the more I experiment, the more I watch others ride, the more questions I ask, the more answers I get that I can change my thinking and come up with better answers and better results.

I have made many riders, mostly women, better riders and faster riders. A better rider is not necessarily a faster rider. I'm still getting thank yous from them and some of these women are faster than I am now but they still come back periodically for tips and techniques and ideas that I have to share with them to improve. This year I'm changing my training schedule to not only help them, but improve myself even more.


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## JayTee (Feb 3, 2004)

Wheelsucking ... probably one of the best suggestions. It is THE answer to riding with a group that is stronger than you are. Tuck in tight and stay there. Of course, if they are WAY stronger than you, even wheelsucking can be too much, but it sounds like it could be enough to make up the difference here.

When I ride with folks who are stronger than I am, I feel no shame in just trying to hang on. I've had the shoe on the other foot (been the stronger one) and I've certainly never cared. Go for it!


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## mwilcko2 (May 1, 2004)

When riding centuries, you really need to drink and consume calories early on. Most people only drink/eat when they feel its needed, but for long rides you need to start early on (you can't make it up later in the ride). A few years ago, about 75 miles into a century, riders better than me were slowing down.. Following my friends advice about drinking and eating early, I seemed to have a burst of energy 75 miles in. Give it a try.. I bet you will ride better.


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## lawrence (May 17, 2005)

*Agree, drink and eat early in Century rides*

I agree about eating and drink early in the Century rides and you can't make it up. I've done only 1 Century ride, August 2007, in near 100 degree heat. But after the ride and still thinking about how I could have improved, and after several subsequent rides of 60-85 miles and many 70-85 mile rides, and having run out of energy at 70 miles during the Century. I believe I ran out of energy because I took too long at the breaks and I didn't eat often enough during the ride. I believe had I been pacing my food intake more and more often and drinking carb drinks, I would not have run out of energy.


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## CarbonFrame (Feb 5, 2005)

*Think about it...*



android said:


> Most people end up where they started for daily traing rides, so wind and hills are a wash.



If you ride into a head wind the time you travel at a slower pace is significantly longer than the time you travel with the wind at your back and the increased pace is inproportionate to the decrease in speed the headwind causes. Like wise for hills, you may ride 40 mph down a hill for 20 seconds that it took 5 minutes to ride up at less than 10 mph. Definately not a wash.


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## venus (Apr 27, 2006)

*Get Real*

I've been compared to the guys in competition all my life. Face it: they are bigger, stronger, faster than you can ever be. This is determined by genetics. When you are ready to compete on your own level give me a call.


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## snapdragen (Jan 28, 2004)

Always the ray of sunshine and encouragement.


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## CarbonFrame (Feb 5, 2005)

*Lol...*



snapdragen said:


> Always the ray of sunshine and encouragement.


Its funny... sometimes I think Venus is a woman and sometimes she sounds like a guy. I still am unsure.. At times I have wondered if Venus was being used by a woman and a man at different times.


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## snapdragen (Jan 28, 2004)

..............................................


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## venus (Apr 27, 2006)

CarbonFrame said:


> Its funny... sometimes I think Venus is a woman and sometimes she sounds like a guy. I still am unsure.. At times I have wondered if Venus was being used by a woman and a man at different times.


Folks at work always tell me I think like a man because I don’t stand around & gossip or discuss where to buy designer clothes. The observation has gone to management level & is recorded. In the end, it is why the physicians love to work w/ me. I’m no BS, just fact.


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