# Pedalling technique - toes down or heels down?



## paul l (Aug 3, 2009)

Hmm, not sure if this the right forum room or if it's been covered before. Which way should the foot be pointed for smooth cadence or doesn't it matter?

For years, I understood toes down was good form and recall vaguely that Tony Rominger recommended it. Last week, however, I read the opposite as toes down was said to waste energy unecessarily.

It leaves me confused and the answer is probably whichever feels right. I do both on the road assuming that alternating gives muscle groups a chance to recover. A bit like climbing out of the saddle which I often do purely as an opportunity to change position, change blood flow round the body, give lower back muscles a rest and so on.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

paul l said:


> It leaves me confused and the answer is probably whichever feels right..


correct :nonod:


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

What ever feels most natural to you is the correct answer.

With that said, it seems easier to pedal toes down on the flats/hammering and heels down when climbing in the saddle.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Whichever way makes you not think about it is correct. IOW, you don't "try" to pedal in any certain way, and that is the best way to pedal.


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## terrapin4 (Aug 2, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> With that said, it seems easier to pedal toes down on the flats/hammering and heels down when climbing in the saddle.


this seems to work for me, though on the flats i find myself bringing my heels down slightly when i'm about to begin my down-stroke at about 12 o'clock, and then flexing my calf and ankle to push my toes back down.


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

*duh*



paul l said:


> Hmm, not sure if this the right forum room or if it's been covered before. Which way should the foot be pointed for smooth cadence or doesn't it matter?
> 
> For years, I understood toes down was good form and recall vaguely that Tony Rominger recommended it. Last week, however, I read the opposite as toes down was said to waste energy unecessarily.
> 
> It leaves me confused and the answer is probably whichever feels right. I do both on the road assuming that alternating gives muscle groups a chance to recover. A bit like climbing out of the saddle which I often do purely as an opportunity to change position, change blood flow round the body, give lower back muscles a rest and so on.


You've heard the phrase "wiping the mud off," right? If you're pointing your toes down on the down-stroke, how can you possibly hope to recruit your calf into propelling you forward? If you're toes down, then your calf is simply locked in place and you've turned your lower leg into nothing more than a meta-bone through which your upper leg has to do *all* the work.

This is not rocket science.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

shirt said:


> This is not rocket science.


A good thing it isn't, too. 

Don't try to recruit your calf into the action of pedalling. "Ankling" is a waste of energy.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

shirt said:


> You've heard the phrase "wiping the mud off," right? If you're pointing your toes down on the down-stroke, how can you possibly hope to recruit your calf into propelling you forward? If you're toes down, then your calf is simply locked in place and you've turned your lower leg into nothing more than a meta-bone through which your upper leg has to do *all* the work.
> 
> This is not rocket science.


How exactly does a calf propel you forward in a meaningful way?


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

JohnStonebarger said:


> A good thing it isn't, too.
> 
> Don't try to recruit your calf into the action of pedalling. "Ankling" is a waste of energy.


 I could not disagree more.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

shirt said:


> I could not disagree more.


"...ankling, much like people's walking gait, is caused by physical individuality rather than any advantage. Typically, some walking gaits are so pronounced that a person can be recognized by it at a distance. Some people raise their heel before stepping off on the next stride while others "peel" the foot from the floor in a continuous motion. To artificially emulate someone's ankle motion or lack thereof, while pedaling, is as useless as emulating a walking gait."

Jobst Brandt 

http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/ankling.html


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

JohnStonebarger said:


> "...ankling, much like people's walking gait, is caused by physical individuality rather than any advantage. Typically, some walking gaits are so pronounced that a person can be recognized by it at a distance. Some people raise their heel before stepping off on the next stride while others "peel" the foot from the floor in a continuous motion. To artificially emulate someone's ankle motion or lack thereof, while pedaling, is as useless as emulating a walking gait."
> 
> Jobst Brandt
> 
> http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/ankling.html


Sheldon was a real mensch, may he rest in peace. Two problems:

1) We're cycling, not walking.
2) Sheldon was not an authority on biometrics.


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

iliveonnitro said:


> How exactly does a calf propel you forward in a meaningful way?


Let's see... it's a MUSCLE and it helps PUSH THE PEDAL DOWN which propels the bicycle FORWARD.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

shirt said:


> Sheldon was a real mensch, may he rest in peace. Two problems:
> 
> 1) We're cycling, not walking.
> 2) Sheldon was not an authority on biometrics.


With keen insights such as "duh" and "this is not rocket science," you seem to have this all figured out, so I'll just ask: What makes you think ankling is the answer? For that matter, what makes you think pedalling efficiency is even a question?

P.S. Sheldon didn't like ankling either, but the quote is actually from Jobst Brandt.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> How exactly does a calf propel you forward in a meaningful way?


By putting a harness on one, then tying the harness to the front end of your bike...it's amazing how much a little calf can pull.  

Oh, wait a second...this is about your leg muscle isn't it? :blush2:


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

As someone who suffers from endless cramping, especially in the calves, I've found that heel down works best for me.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

shirt said:


> Let's see... it's a MUSCLE and it helps PUSH THE PEDAL DOWN which propels the bicycle FORWARD.


Got it. Now, _how_ exactly do the calf musles (gastrocnemius and soleus) help push the pedal down?


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

wim said:


> Got it. Now, _how_ exactly do the calf musles (gastrocnemius and soleus) help push the pedal down?


Is "contraction" the word you're looking for?


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

JohnStonebarger said:


> With keen insights such as "duh" and "this is not rocket science," you seem to have this all figured out, so I'll just ask: What makes you think ankling is the answer? For that matter, what makes you think pedalling efficiency is even a question?
> 
> P.S. Sheldon didn't like ankling either, but the quote is actually from Jobst Brandt.


Sorry if I hurt your feelings John. Duh. Rocket science.

Thanks for correcting my quote. I don't know who Jobst Brandt is and I don't have an extra 30 seconds to google him. But I have 60 seconds to respond to you. ;-)

I have no idea what you mean by this: "what makes you think pedalling (sic) efficiency is even a question?" I didn't ask the question. Someone else did. Pedaling efficiency exists whether you question it or not. Mount your cleats on your heels and see if your efficiency changes. Voila: pedaling efficiency is a question.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

shirt said:


> Sorry if I hurt your feelings John. Duh. Rocket science.
> 
> Thanks for correcting my quote. I don't know who Jobst Brandt is and I don't have an extra 30 seconds to google him. But I have 60 seconds to respond to you. ;-)
> 
> I have no idea what you mean by this: "what makes you think pedalling (sic) efficiency is even a question?" I didn't ask the question. Someone else did. Pedaling efficiency exists whether you question it or not. Mount your cleats on your heels and see if your efficiency changes. Voila: pedaling efficiency is a question.


I remember reading a thorough blog post about mounting the cleats on the heels to get rid of the calf muscles. The author had basically come to the conclusion that the calf was a useless muscle in cycling and that by putting the cleats forward of the heel we were introducing an inefficiency.

However I know when I climb I use my calf muscles to get some extra bounce at the bottom of the stroke so that my hamstrings don't work so much and so my other quad isn't pushing dead weight. I would assume that I do this in a normal pedal stroke as well although the degree at which I do it might be much lower.

Therefore it seems to me that the calf has at least some use in the pedal stroke and that the angle at which you pivot your foot can make a difference. And this is where my knowledge ends.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

shirt said:


> Is "contraction" the word you're looking for?


I'll take it if that's all you have to offer.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

shirt said:


> Sorry if I hurt your feelings John.


Don't worry about it, anonymous. You didn't.



shirt said:


> I don't know who Jobst Brandt is and I don't have an extra 30 seconds to google him. But I have 60 seconds to respond to you. ;-)


Your time would've been better spent googling Jobst.



shirt said:


> Pedaling efficiency exists whether you question it or not.


That may be true, but mostly in a tree-falling-in-the-woods sort of way. In the real world most times someone espouses a more efficient pedaling method they simply waste everyone else's time. Especially, it seems, when they're as convinced of it as you are.



shirt said:


> Mount your cleats on your heels and see if your efficiency changes.


Funny you should mention that, as moving your cleats toward your heels is a much more compelling argument for pedaling efficiency than ankling ever was, precisely because it might help take your calves out of the action.


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

JohnStonebarger said:


> Don't worry about it, anonymous. You didn't.
> 
> Your time would've been better spent googling Jobst.
> 
> ...


You're a riot. Tell you what, post a video of you sprinting out of the saddle with cleats mounted on your heels and I swear to god I'll mail you a $20 bill. Cash money.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

shirt said:


> You're a riot. Tell you what, post a video of you sprinting out of the saddle with cleats mounted on your heels and I swear to god I'll mail you a $20 bill. Cash money.


I'll donate another $20.00 if he can win a field sprint with cleats mounted on his heels...Now that would be freaking funny to watch  

I will say this...If the calf muscles are not used in a pedal stroke, why the H*** are my calves so big, and why do they burn so much when I'm hammering? They are obviously adding something to my pedal stroke and are not a detriment.

Sprinting...LOL, without them I would be God awful slow


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

JohnStonebarger said:


> Don't worry about it, anonymous. You didn't.
> 
> Your time would've been better spent googling Jobst.


Okay, I just spent 10 minutes reading through a bunch of Jobst's hooters. He's not a complete idiot, but is definitely a "partial." There's 10 minutes of my life I'm never getting back... Wait, maybe you ARE Jobst! Jobst! Get out of John's body!! Get out, I command thee!

Who the hell is "anonymous"?


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

Wookiebiker said:


> I will say this...If the calf muscles are not used in a pedal stroke, why the H*** are my calves so big, and why do they burn so much when I'm hammering? They are obviously adding something to my pedal stroke and are not a detriment.


It's not that you don't use your calves. It's that you don't need to in any active way -- the calves simply stabilize your foot. That's why Steve Hogg and Joel Friel and many others are now moving people's cleats back behind the ball of the foot. (Of course, efficiency and effective sprinting are two very different animals...) Whether or not that works, I don't know. My point was that there's actually some interesting debate about it, unlike "scraping mud with every stroke."

Regarding ankling and toe up/down the OP answered his own question -- "the answer is probably whichever feels right."


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## Flammer (Sep 19, 2009)

Great to see a decent stoush! A pity dueling isn't an appropriate method of settling such differences.

I want to add a late tangent. Is is a good idea to vary pedaling stroke on a longer ride? ie rest some muscles by pulling the pedals, lifting the heel, dropping the heels etc,etc. 

And if one's calf muscles are properly employed, they should be, surely. I find occasionally using my core strength, developed during rock climbing training, helps rest my shoulders and arms. 

But now, take up your rapiers. The first blood wins! :devil:


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## tampafw (Jul 25, 2009)

I was actually watching my pedal technique in the mirror in my 'man cave' CycleOps dedicated 3rd bedroom. 

I have a tiny bit of heel drop coming over the top at 12 and by say......2 the heel drop has stopped and by 4 oclockish I'm finishing up with a bit of toe down....and my toe is a bit lower than my heel at the bottom. 

I have no idea if this is 'right', but it sure 'feels' right b/c I don't have to think about it. 

Personally, the aspect of my pedaling I concentrate the most on has less to do with my stroke and more to do with: feeling 'heavy' on the saddle and 'light' on my hoods....it really helps me seem to keep the feet light on the upstroke. Not pulling up, but definitely making the recovery of the other foot light so as not to fight the foot powering through on the other side.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

JohnStonebarger said:


> My point was that there's actually some interesting debate about it, unlike "scraping mud with every stroke."


And that's what it is...debate, because there is no real proof that your calf muscles don't add to pedal stroke.

Personally, I tend to think they add a fair amount to your pedal stroke.

With regards to the pros...which isn't actually a great use for example...however they would want to be the most efficient as possible. With this in mind watch their pedal stroke...on the flats it's more times than not toe down (if not always) which means they use their calf muscles during their pedal stroke.

Also, in regards to cleat placement. The more you move the cleat back the more you will take away from ones ability to sprint because all muscles are needed in a sprint to develop max power (i.e. the calves are used in the sprint adding to the power put out by the rider). The more you get away from sprinting the less importance the calves probably have in a pedal stroke...However, sprinting and attacking are major parts of racing...which is why you will never see a cleat moved all the way back to eliminate the calf from the pedal stroke.


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

tampafw said:


> I was actually watching my pedal technique in the mirror in my 'man cave' CycleOps dedicated 3rd bedroom.
> 
> I have a tiny bit of heel drop coming over the top at 12 and by say......2 the heel drop has stopped and by 4 oclockish I'm finishing up with a bit of toe down....and my toe is a bit lower than my heel at the bottom.
> 
> ...


Incredible! One of my mantras when I find my form going is "sit heavy, pedal light." I meditate on that for a few seconds and my speed stabilizes (or goes up 1-2), my HR goes down a few points, and I stop rocking. I thought I came up with it all on my own.


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## shirt (Nov 13, 2001)

Sorry Flammer, I just realized I brought a rapier to a pillow fight. I'm not touching this turkey anymore.


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## tampafw (Jul 25, 2009)

shirt said:


> Incredible! One of my mantras when I find my form going is "sit heavy, pedal light." I meditate on that for a few seconds and my speed stabilizes (or goes up 1-2), my HR goes down a few points, and I stop rocking. I thought I came up with it all on my own.


Yea it's amazing how fatigue can lead to lapses in concentration.....recovery foot gets heavy which makes riding hard at ANY energy level.

I spent the first 15 years of my cycling with one foot fighting the other. It's bizarre, but if 'we will just get out of our own way' it becomes much easier

When I feel my grip on the hoods get tight....or my shoulders tense up....BOOM! I'm probably not light on the pedals.


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## paul l (Aug 3, 2009)

I was the OP for my sins and personally found it an interesting thread all round.

The reason I was curious was because since getting in the saddle in July (work prevented riding last year and knee op in April delayed this year) I have had to simply work on getting my weight and waistline down (105kg and age mid-40s).

I have not had a single night since then of jumping out of bed with calf cramp and stand in agony, half-asleep trying to push my heel into the ground with straight leg. Not once and I used to get it in past years despite stretching. Why? No idea. I wondered if I had subconsciously changed my pedalling or if greater attention to sports drinks made the difference.

Reading the thread and noting what I do on the road it seems on the flat I don't use the calf much, it gets to rest and the quads work lightly. When climbing it's heel down and the calves work a lot more. For steep inclines quads and calves both. So, depending on terrain it alternates between work and rest for the various muscle groups.

As I am not racing anyone and just out there for fun and health this is fine. 5kg of weight gone and noticeably better shape suggests more fat burned than that and some less notcieable muscle on instead. Legs now able to take 20m rides plus and recover quickly too. I have had to be really sensible given the op and the time I had off the bike before that.


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## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

paul l said:


> I have not had a single night since then of jumping out of bed with calf cramp and stand in agony, half-asleep trying to push my heel into the ground with straight leg. Not once and I used to get it in past years despite stretching. Why? No idea. I wondered if I had subconsciously changed my pedalling or if greater attention to sports drinks made the difference.


what electrolytes are you taking in while and after riding? cramps often have to do with fluid and electrolyte levels in the body, and merely show up in muscles that have been used in electrolyte depleting activity. your gastroc/soleus (calf) complex, and your adductor (groin) muscles are smaller, and can also be overused more easily in the pedal stroke, and are thus more easily depleted of electrolytes and likely to cramp.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

shirt said:


> Sorry Flammer, I just realized I brought a rapier to a pillow fight. I'm not touching this turkey anymore.


Wise move. With one-word answers, all-caps screaming and scholarly terms like "duh", "hooters" and "idiot", that rapier is so dull that it'll be defeated easily by a soft pillow.


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## Flammer (Sep 19, 2009)

*It was not my intention to quell the flames*

...but rather to through some petrol on the fire. If I have ended the lively exchange of views, then to all thread followers, I apologize. 

:blush2:


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## Flammer (Sep 19, 2009)

*throw, I meant throw, I'm sorry...*

throw, throw, throw, not through. Aach! :blush2:


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## paul l (Aug 3, 2009)

I am riding 3 or 4 times per week of an hour or less duration except for a 2 hour weekend ride as I have more time. I take 1 600ml bottle of fluid with me per hour.

For the short rides that's PSP22 made up to 1 part in 9 or 10 so it is not over-diluted nor syrupy. For the longer ride the 2nd bottle is Zero Active (hydration anti-cramp) which has a salty taste rather than sweet.

If I don't finish on the ride I make sure I do so within a few minutes of getting home. Likewise I make sure I eat some sort of snack within 30 minutes of getting home. As I say, I don't overdo the riding or the fuelling as I am not young, not racing and not training per se. Just trying to be sensible as easy routines mean you don't get lazy and start skipping things.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Wookiebiker said:


> I will say this...If the calf muscles are not used in a pedal stroke, why the H*** are my calves so big, and why do they burn so much when I'm hammering? They are obviously adding something to my pedal stroke and are not a detriment.
> 
> Sprinting...LOL, without them I would be God awful slow


I'm with Wookie on this. I can see calves flexing (nay, straining!) on other riders---if they're not contributing, then why are the so obviously working?

Back to the original topic, I agree with the "whatever feels natural" approach, generally, but I have tried consciously altering my style during sprint workouts, and I am convinced that I get slightly higher peak power with my heel somewhat dropped from my "natural" style.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

Undecided said:


> I'm with Wookie on this. I can see calves flexing (nay, straining!) on other riders---if they're not contributing, then why are the so obviously working?


I think the idea is that they're working harder than they need to. In steady riding -- and especially at a higher cadence -- all the calves do is provide a stable platform for the legs to push down on the pedals. If you move the cleat back a bit you do a lot less work for the same effect, thus saving energy. Clearly this is a compromise between efficiency when you're cruising along vs sprinting, climbing, etc. That's why Hogg (I don't know about Friel) recommends different cleat placement for different cycling disciplines.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea but I haven't really tried it myself -- I don't know if it works.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Undecided said:


> I'm with Wookie on this. I can see calves flexing (nay, straining!) on other riders---if they're not contributing, then why are the so obviously working?


Wookie's and your observations are correct. But what's been called into question by people much smarter than I am is whether or not the obvious workings of these muscles actually contribute to forward propulsion during seated pedaling. The people who have doubts about that generally (and I'm putting this into very simple terms) advance the theory that with a freely rotating pedal and the ball of the foot over the pedal axle, the calf muscles are primarily recruited to stabilize the foot rather than help extend the leg and generate pedal forces. There's a large amount of interesting and knowledgeable thought and discussion on the web about this.

I'm not 100% sure where I stand on this—when I plantarflex my foot with my calf muscles to help bring the pedal through top dead center, I feel that these muscles are contributing something to forward propulsion, especially at lower "climbing" cadences.


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## paul l (Aug 3, 2009)

So, probably dumb question then but all the talk is of calves and quads. When toes are pointed do the shins not join in? Are they just there to act a 'gilet' for the lower legs? You can feel them react when you point the toes pedalling.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

wim said:


> I'm not 100% sure where I stand on this—when I plantarflex my foot with my calf muscles to help bring the pedal through top dead center, I feel that these muscles are contributing something to forward propulsion, especially at lower "climbing" cadences.


I compare it back to my days of throwing in college. With the shot put, the very last thing you do is flick your wrist. Technically you can throw the shot a long ways without doing this, but that added little extra at the end of the throw can add a foot or two to your throw. It's not a lot, but it makes the difference between winning and losing.

In this instance you end up using all of your muscles from your feet to your wrist and they all work together to provide the most power possible.

This is similar to a pedal stroke. The calf muscles may seem like they don't do a whole lot, but when put together with the entire pedal stroke they all add up to make the most powerful and efficient stroke possible.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

paul l said:


> So, probably dumb question then but all the talk is of calves and quads. When toes are pointed do the shins not join in? Are they just there to act a 'gilet' for the lower legs? You can feel them react when you point the toes pedalling.


Good question, actually. The main shin muscle (tibialis anterior) stabilizes the ankle. It also locks the ankle (for example, while kicking something or when pushing your foot forward at top dead center of the pedal stroke). But that muscle action is influenced by how much weight is bearing on the foot, so it gets complex considering the differences between standing and seated riding on pedals which are allowed to rotate (unlike flat ground walking or running, which always fixes the contact foot at the horizontal).


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

paul l said:


> It leaves me confused and the answer is probably whichever feels right. I do both on the road assuming that alternating gives muscle groups a chance to recover. A bit like climbing out of the saddle which I often do purely as an opportunity to change position, change blood flow round the body, give lower back muscles a rest and so on.


I used to be pedaling with whatever felt best, and that used to be "toes down" since it was similar to how I would run - which was dominantly sprinting because I hate jogging. I changed to "heel down" the past few months and perhaps I'm misguided, but I feel like I can continue the downstroke a bit more and get a better feel of my fore/aft position on the bike. For a while I thought alternating was ideal, too, but both pedaling forms would share the involvement of some of the same muscles so I didn't think I was saving anything. Cleat position is very important to pair with technique imo. Ever since I've been "heel down", the pedals are a bit more behind the balls of my feet. Feels like I can shoot the leg straight-down on the downstroke smoothly.

So regarding the whole "whatever feels right" thing, and not forcibly changing your natural form...I think changing my technique just felt more right in the end.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

Wookiebiker said:


> I compare it back to my days of throwing in college. With the shot put, the very last thing you do is flick your wrist. Technically you can throw the shot a long ways without doing this, but that added little extra at the end of the throw can add a foot or two to your throw. It's not a lot, but it makes the difference between winning and losing.
> 
> In this instance you end up using all of your muscles from your feet to your wrist and they all work together to provide the most power possible.
> 
> This is similar to a pedal stroke. The calf muscles may seem like they don't do a whole lot, but when put together with the entire pedal stroke they all add up to make the most powerful and efficient stroke possible.


I think this is a good analogy. And I don't think anyone would argue that the calf can't contribute to a pedal stroke. The question is whether it should.

To go back to your analogy, if you were throwing that shot put 90 times a minute, would the flick of the wrist at the end be worth it? Or would you be more efficient by skipping it? (Or, if you're a sprinter, maybe just flick the wrist that one last time at the end?)

Another analogy, but a bit closer to home, might be standing while climbing: standing lets you lay down more power, certainly, but at a big cost. For most people it's much more efficient to stay in the saddle on all but the steepest pitches, or maybe except when attacking or responding to an attack.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

JohnStonebarger said:


> I think this is a good analogy. And I don't think anyone would argue that the calf can't contribute to a pedal stroke. The question is whether it should.
> 
> To go back to your analogy, if you were throwing that shot put 90 times a minute, would the flick of the wrist at the end be worth it? Or would you be more efficient by skipping it? (Or, if you're a sprinter, maybe just flick the wrist that one last time at the end?)
> 
> Another analogy, but a bit closer to home, might be standing while climbing: standing lets you lay down more power, certainly, but at a big cost. For most people it's much more efficient to stay in the saddle on all but the steepest pitches, or maybe except when attacking or responding to an attack.


Even if you were throwing 90 times a minute...(which would be funny to watch...puking everywhere )...it would still make a difference. It might be a small difference, but a difference all the same.

As for climbing out of the saddle, you are correct in that it takes a toll on a rider because more power is produced....however, that is not always the case.

It seems the smaller a rider the more they can stand with less loss of efficiency. Guys like Pantani and Armstrong used to climb, at least when going hard almost exclusively out of the saddle. So while it is a detriment to some, it's helpful to others.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

Wookiebiker said:


> Even if you were throwing 90 times a minute...(which would be funny to watch...puking everywhere )...it would still make a difference. It might be a small difference, but a difference all the same.


It makes a difference, sure. But it's not free. It takes extra energy to flick that wrist. More muscles are involved. Your heart rate goes up. So is the difference it makes worth the extra energy it takes?

Of course, no one cares about efficiency in a sprint -- put everything you got into it for 15 seconds and win. But for the 45 minutes (or 6 hours) beforehand you need to conserve energy so you have something left for that sprint. And if instead you're time trialing off the front, well...


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

JohnStonebarger said:


> It's not that you don't use your calves. It's that you don't need to in any active way -- the calves simply stabilize your foot. That's why Steve Hogg and Joel Friel and many others are now moving people's cleats back behind the ball of the foot. (Of course, efficiency and effective sprinting are two very different animals...) Whether or not that works, I don't know. My point was that there's actually some interesting debate about it, unlike "scraping mud with every stroke."
> 
> Regarding ankling and toe up/down the OP answered his own question -- "the answer is probably whichever feels right."


+1

I think you've figured it out.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Would you believe that watching the instant watt readout on a PowerTap head changed the way I pedal? When I figured out how to stabilize the wattage my avg watts went up. Not sure if that is pedaling more efficiently or something else though...


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