# Joe Friel is accepting applications for clients



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Just in case you have $1500/month, or $8000 for 6 months. Because, you know, my coin jar is just overflowing with an extra $16,000/year.

http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2008/11/coaching-opening.html


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

16k after tax... i wonder what the demographic breakdown of his clientel look like... dentist, dentist,dentist...


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> Just in case you have $1500/month, or $8000 for 6 months. Because, you know, my coin jar is just overflowing with an extra $16,000/year.
> 
> http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2008/11/coaching-opening.html


Holy moly!!
I think my rates need a review


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

there's a marketing lesson... no, several lessons there for you coaches....


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

That is ridiculous price though. That's like asking bluray price for CD player. This shows the power of advertising and communications. Product is basically what you get from all the good coaches, price is really high, it's an online coach and there are basically no top-athletes doing this and still he can charge top dollar...or dope doctor dollar for his services. 

At least he his starting to turn his ship now,


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

I'll offer it out there...half the price, half the results guaranteed!


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

OneGear said:


> 16k after tax... i wonder what the demographic breakdown of his clientel look like... dentist, dentist,dentist...


More like CEO of Fortune 500 company. I don't know many people willing to spend 6-10% of their salary on coaching. They would probably have to make a lot more than $200,000/yr.

Anyone remember much Schleck/Hamilton/etc pay Fuentes?


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## moab63 (Aug 7, 2006)

*wOw Carmichael must be next*

only movie stars.

Well I guess my coaching license application goes out on december 1st


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

Those prices are ballsy for a time of global economic slowdown. I think even most wealthy racers who could afford those rates would also see that is an easy area to trim some fat in leaner times. Friel's book is good for the self-coached, but as a personal coach I cannot imagine him being worth that money.


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> More like CEO of Fortune 500 company. I don't know many people willing to spend 6-10% of their salary on coaching. They would probably have to make a lot more than $200,000/yr.
> 
> Anyone remember much Schleck/Hamilton/etc pay Fuentes?


Fortune 500 CEOs make a whole lot more than that..in base salary. if he didn't, how would his company qualify into the Fortune500? 

The dentists in my area make more than 200,000/year. Now that's ridiculous.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Trust fund babies.

That covers many triathletes who compete around the world. At least that's what some of the locals claim. After all, who can train that much and hold down a full time job?

My hunch is that many people paying this much $$ for coaching are really doing it for the personal attention that they can't find somewhere else. Purely an "amateur" analysis.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Eric_H said:


> Those prices are ballsy for a time of global economic slowdown. I think even most wealthy racers who could afford those rates would also see that is an easy area to trim some fat in leaner times. Friel's book is good for the self-coached, but as a personal coach I cannot imagine him being worth that money.


Economic slowdown, sure, but some people will always have too much money. I'm sure Friel has been charging those prices for awhile now.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

Carmichael has been doing this since 1998. I won't disclose the figures but it is a lot more than what Friel is talking about. A lot.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

While not that degree, browsing the web lately it seemed to me that a few coaches have raised their prices.


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

Sherpa23 said:


> Carmichael has been doing this since 1998. I won't disclose the figures but it is a lot more than what Friel is talking about. A lot.


Well Carmichael trained a tdf champion for who knows how long.. people will pay a premium if you rode with Lance. Not saying it's right but the pedigree is a big step apart. I like Friel's book but to most that is his biggest selling point, and for most, they wouldn't know what else he could offer over that.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

OneGear said:


> Well Carmichael trained a tdf champion for who knows how long.. people will pay a premium if you rode with Lance. Not saying it's right but the pedigree is a big step apart. I like Friel's book but to most that is his biggest selling point, and for most, they wouldn't know what else he could offer over that.


You don't really believe that Carmichael played that big of a role in Lance's training do you? When he had Ferrari and all those other guys, it was Carmichael who was writing the training program?


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

OneGear said:


> Well Carmichael trained a tdf champion for who knows how long.. people will pay a premium if you rode with Lance.


No, thats why I wrote that.

Personally, I feel Carmichael is still hanging on the coattails of Lance's victories... but that's his business, and his business is doing good innit?


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

OneGear said:


> No, thats why I wrote that.
> 
> Personally, I feel Carmichael is still hanging on the coattails of Lance's victories... but that's his business, and his business is doing good innit?



Note to self: Add OneGear to the smart list...

Don't think that Lance isn't getting his share out of that whole relationship as well, and it's not free coaching. But I suspect that you already figured that out.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

MerlinAma said:


> Trust fund babies.
> 
> That covers many triathletes who compete around the world. At least that's what some of the locals claim. After all, who can train that much and hold down a full time job?
> 
> My hunch is that many people paying this much $$ for coaching are really doing it for the personal attention that they can't find somewhere else. Purely an "amateur" analysis.


It seems odd that he'd have to advertise. That is, if he were going to train a pro he'd have feelers out and wouldn't even have to bother to post something so gauche on his website. Wouldn't a pro pay a percentage of winnings anyway vs. flat fee?

The advert definitely seems designed to attract a dentist or lawyer with a P4C. Not a pro.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

jorgy said:


> Wouldn't a pro pay a percentage of winnings anyway vs. flat fee?


A real Pro doesn't have winnings.


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## Cruzer2424 (Feb 8, 2005)

jorgy said:


> It seems odd that he'd have to advertise. That is, if he were going to train a pro he'd have feelers out and wouldn't even have to bother to post something so gauche on his website. Wouldn't a pro pay a percentage of winnings anyway vs. flat fee?
> 
> The advert definitely seems designed to attract a dentist or lawyer with a P4C. Not a pro.


Who said he wanted to train pros?


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Good point- it's much easier to train people who aren't very good. They see obvious results faster than someone who is already near their physiological limits.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

How about his line "I don't just coach anyone. There's a screening process..." I'd have thought the stupid-high fee would have screened out most people, except those that have $8k sitting around but have to have someone hold their hand to use the performance manager and graphing features of training peaks...


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

16K per year and don't forget the 2k it will end up costing you to go to Arizona to do all of your testing. I guess when you are in that deep what is another 2,000.00. 
Someone needs to ask for those references that he mentions.......


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Haters


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## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

For $1500 a month, he should really move in with you.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Andrea138 said:


> Good point- it's much easier to train people who aren't very good. They see obvious results faster than someone who is already near their physiological limits.


I would suggest it's more the other way round. The very good riders sometimes get that way in spite of their training.

The less gifted (physiologically speaking) need far better training to do well.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

I should clarify- what I meant was that individuals with less training will typically see faster improvements without a very specific program.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I would suggest it's more the other way round. The very good riders sometimes get that way in spite of their training.
> 
> The less gifted (physiologically speaking) need far better training to do well.



To your point, I once had a coach (who coached some pretty top people) tell me that for certain workouts, it didn't really matter what I did as long as it was "very, very hard". This was in the late 90's and I really feel that coaching has come a long way since then (and I have the pin pricks on my fingers and ears to show for it) but the guy definitely had some top results. Although I can tell you that many of the people he coached were highly, highly talented.

I think that good people will be good no matter what but the right coaching (not simply coaching) helps make them super.

BTW, on the whole $16k a year thing, I think that it goes more like this (DISCLAIMER: PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART): I don't think that he really wants to coach individuals all that much. I think that he knows that he could do it and maybe if it's only a few people it might be okay. But he wants people who are committed and people who are going to value the coaching beyond simply "coaching," So he sets a high price that a) makes it worth his while, 2) weeds out the jokers, and c) keeps the numbers low. Let's face it, something's worth what the market is willing to bear. I bet he gets 4 to 5 people and he has a good time with it and pockets sufficient extra cash. Whether his coaching is "worth it" is going to vary from individual to individual but that's something else.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't have nearly the experience or knowledge that some people have, but I think that your 1990's coach was onto something (for a talented rider). I have come to believe that a physically talented individual is one whom training can't mess up too badly and who benefits most by just going hard and then harder. The less talented individuals are the ones who require more finesse, more balanced workouts, more structure, to really benefit.
I see very talented guys just killing themselves and those around them all the time. if they're on their bikes, they're going hard. and they just seem to get faster. other guys have more rhythmic ups and downs -- flying and then not so, etc., etc., and you can see when they've been riding themselves into the ground. for talented amateurs, the kind of guy who maybe was a pro and is now a master or who maybe could have been a pro or close had he not started when he was mid-thirties, I think it's pretty hard to really run them into the ground. and if they're not running themselves into the ground, they're getting faster.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

bill said:


> I don't have nearly the experience or knowledge that some people have, but I think that your 1990's coach was onto something (for a talented rider). I have come to believe that a physically talented individual is one whom training can't mess up too badly and who benefits most by just going hard and then harder. The less talented individuals are the ones who require more finesse, more balanced workouts, more structure, to really benefit.
> I see very talented guys just killing themselves and those around them all the time. if they're on their bikes, they're going hard. and they just seem to get faster. other guys have more rhythmic ups and downs -- flying and then not so, etc., etc., and you can see when they've been riding themselves into the ground. for talented amateurs, the kind of guy who maybe was a pro and is now a master or who maybe could have been a pro or close had he not started when he was mid-thirties, I think it's pretty hard to really run them into the ground. and if they're not running themselves into the ground, they're getting faster.



Personally speaking, I think that all talent is (as far as bike riding goes) is the ability to absorb work and tolerate pain/discomfort. I have yet to find someone who agrees with me but, honestly, I think that's all there is.

I will say, however, that if you don't have the other facets of fitness, going hard all the time won't help you. At least in my experience.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

Well you have to buy a power meter as well. If I win powerball I am going to send in my application. The guy only trains 5 people at a time. Might be worth it if you are flush with cash.


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

karatemom said:


> For $1500 a month, he should really move in with you.


If this Joe Friel character was a *very* good looking woman I'd think about it.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> Personally speaking, I think that all talent is (as far as bike riding goes) is the ability to absorb work and tolerate pain/discomfort. I have yet to find someone who agrees with me but, honestly, I think that's all there is.


I agree with you.

I agree with the other part of your post, too -- my exhibit A is a guy who used to race domestic pro like fifteen years ago and came back about a year ago. for the first couple of months that he was around, he was not invincible. he now is. 

and he IS crazy and goes fast all the time.


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## Rodder07 (Nov 18, 2008)

Sherpa, you are right on... the greatest pro's can endure or physically able to work more than those around them. The mind, and preparation over long haul, has a lot to do with winning and losing. Many people don't realize that winning is about 10% more than the average in your field and 3% more power output at the end. 

In our team races, I put one word on my seattube for opposing team to read... "PAIN" 

I love the response... it signified my will upon them... LOL


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## F1nut (Nov 28, 2008)

Michele Ferrari Trains People
His advertisment is:

5% of your salary and you go X amount faster.
10% of your salary and you go XX amount faster.
15% of your salary and you go XXX amount faster.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Rodder07 said:


> Sherpa, you are right on... the greatest pro's can endure or physically able to work more than those around them. The mind, and preparation over long haul, has a lot to do with winning and losing. Many people don't realize that winning is about 10% more than the average in your field and 3% more power output at the end.
> 
> In our team races, I put one word on my seattube for opposing team to read... "PAIN"
> 
> I love the response... it signified my will upon them... LOL


Man, I would totally find motivation out of that.


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

Rodder07 said:


> In our team races, I put one word on my seattube for opposing team to read... "PAIN"


I have a pink butterfly on my seatpost because the one sitting on my wheel is a sissy. My speed shouldn't inflict pain on anyone.

Still...It's beyond me how Friel can charge such money and otherwise somewhat smart people pay the money.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*fee*



iliveonnitro said:


> Just in case you have $1500/month, or $8000 for 6 months. Because, you know, my coin jar is just overflowing with an extra $16,000/year.
> 
> http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2008/11/coaching-opening.html


that kind of fee makes me feel a whole lot better about being slow


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## M__E (Apr 21, 2006)

Ill just summarise mine with...
and add that Im selling 'magic beans' for $4000..bargain at 50% off
they are GUARANTEED to make no difference..so at least you know straight up that you are getting screwed!


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I wonder if most of Friel's clients are triathletes?

Was on a team ride with a guy who's a coach recently, and we got to talking about the business of coaching. He remarked that though he's personally a road racer and hangs with roadies, the money in coaching is with triathletes. Something to the effect of "they're willing to spend for results, while roadies feel like they deserve everything for free."

The way he said it didn't come across bitter at all, just sort of a shrug and that's the way it is.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

That's funny because it's exactly what i heard from a trainer riding buddy of mine too, also his triathletes tended to be older with more disposable income.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

function said:


> his triathletes tended to be older with more disposable income.


+1. Not just "his," but closer to "all."

Triathletes are allowed to be mediocre in all 3 disciplines and still get OK results. You can't be mediocre at only swimming, only cycling, or only running and expect to get any results.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

iliveonnitro said:


> +1. Not just "his," but closer to "all."
> 
> Triathletes are allowed to be mediocre in all 3 disciplines and still get OK results. You can't be mediocre at only swimming, only cycling, or only running and expect to get any results.


man, that's not really fair. those guys spread themselves very thin, trying to get it all in (get it? tri-ing?). if they actually focused on one or the other, the best likely would be among the best. at a certain point, barring extraordinary specific talent, endurance sports are endurance sports, and if you do well in one, you're going to do well in another. no one I know who was a good triathlete sucked at bicycle racing, and more than a few seem to have made a stronger mark in racing than triathlons once they focused.
Lance Armstrong, anyone?


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

bill said:


> man, that's not really fair. those guys spread themselves very thin, trying to get it all in (get it? tri-ing?). if they actually focused on one or the other, the best likely would be among the best. at a certain point, barring extraordinary specific talent, endurance sports are endurance sports, and if you do well in one, you're going to do well in another. no one I know who was a good triathlete sucked at bicycle racing, and more than a few seem to have made a stronger mark in racing than triathlons once they focused.
> Lance Armstrong, anyone?


Sorry, my intention wasn't to discredit them at all. You can get a lot further with bike racing on 10hrs/wk of riding than you can in triathlons on 10hrs/wk split between 3 disciplines. Thus, usually why they are "mediocre" at all 3 things and still get good results (because everyone is in the same boat).


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I have respect for Friel for what he's written and there's no doubt he knowledgeable and probably has the science down as well as any coach in the states. Still like the rest of you I don't believe pure cyclists are going to spend this kind of money. 

I view the road to becoming a good cyclists as finding better and better riders than yourself to train with. The most that will cost you is perhaps offering to buy them lunch or dinner occasionally. 

You can't just plot away in your training diary and expect results. It's all blown out the water when you meet up with guys that are faster than you. Hook up with these guys after the race and ask if you can train with them. 

Musicians have an old saying. If you're the best musician in your group then find another group.


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## Crithater (Sep 27, 2005)

Traianing Tip of the Day....Go ride your bike...That will 500.00 dollars......


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*I bet he is. . .*

In this or any other economy, only a friggin moron would pay a 1/5 of that for a "coach." Most people having real jobs don't have time to ride/train 10-15 hours a week. Eight hours of riding will keep you in great shape.


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## Apus^2 (Sep 5, 2007)

When you are a world class athlete and your meals and sponsorships depend on your results, heck, I don't think $16,000 would be that bad. Especially if it gave me a step up on everybody else.

That said, I'm not a world class athlete and my meals don't depend on my results. So it is self coaching for me.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Apus^2 said:


> When you are a world class athlete and your meals and sponsorships depend on your results, heck, I don't think $16,000 would be that bad. Especially if it gave me a step up on everybody else.
> 
> That said, I'm not a world class athlete and my meals don't depend on my results. So it is self coaching for me.


$16,000 can get you a lot more than just Friel...


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## wfrogge (Mar 5, 2007)

QQUIKM3 said:


> Most people having real jobs don't have time to ride/train 10-15 hours a week. Eight hours of riding will keep you in great shape.



Folks respond differently to training loads but I agree that some would be fine and show improvement with just 8 hours a week. Just keep in mind that these 8 hours would be hard arse rides with no downtime except warm up and cool down.

if you work a 40 hour a week job and have a life outside of cycling you can easily fit in 10-15 hours a week though..... Time management! Cut out the TV viewing (or do it on the trainer), workout before work, workout during lunch, and fit in a good 3-4 hour ride every Saturday and Sunday. Break up the long rides if you have to.

Its doable


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

wfrogge said:


> Folks respond differently to training loads but I agree that some would be fine and show improvement with just 8 hours a week. Just keep in mind that these 8 hours would be hard arse rides with no downtime except warm up and cool down.
> 
> if you work a 40 hour a week job and have a life outside of cycling you can easily fit in 10-15 hours a week though..... Time management! Cut out the TV viewing (or do it on the trainer), workout before work, workout during lunch, and fit in a good 3-4 hour ride every Saturday and Sunday. Break up the long rides if you have to.
> 
> Its doable


Pretty much. I work 45-50 hour weeks, and I still have time to train 15-18hours a week. And I work at a job where I'm on my feet all day, if I had an easier one, the training would be more like 18-22 hours.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

*Which makes more money?*

Scenario 1:

"Dude, I'm looking for a coach. Who should I talk to?"
"Check out Friel. He's kinda spendy, but he's written a few relatively obvious books."

Scenario 2:

"Dude, I'm slow. How do I get fast like you?"
"Buy some of Friel's books. Good basic information, and he gets like $16K/year to coach, so he must have some cred. Besides, you blow more on bottle cages than you would on his whole library, and they might actually help you get faster."

Conclusion: Less job search than ploy for bookselling.

OK, so I'm a cynic. Let's call it 'synergistic profiteering.'


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Just a note: Joe Friel, author of "The Cyclists Training Bible" will be a keynote speaker during a Physiology on the Bike Session at the American Society of Exercise Physiologists (ASEP) Conference on the campus of Midwestern State University on Saturday, April 4th. Details at www.asep.org, on the menu on the right side of the page. You can register online for the entire conference or any one session.


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