# lugged vs lugless



## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

what are your thoughts on lugless steel frames, either from the bike boom or more recent steel, as compared to more traditional lugged?

is there a ride quality difference? are we talking only structure, strength or aesthics? is it merely a perception issue, since high-end vintage frames were always lugged?

background: i bought my first lugless frame, an '84 peugeot ph10l. it's lower-mid and not anything to write home about. it's just a project that i thought would be fun. i'm about half-way done. it's a lot like this one, but not quite as cool:


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Lugless-depends whether you're talking about fillet brazed or TIG welded.

Lugged frames allow the framebuilder a "canvas" where they can show off any artistic bent by embellishing the lugs with extra curves or cutouts.

Fillet brazed frames have less of a canvas but enable the builder to customize tube choices such as shape and diameter as they join to each other. Some say the most talented fillet braze framebuilders don't even need to finish file their joints. I have a fillet brazed Bilenky that, while it looks nice for unfinished fillet brazed joints, can't compare to a Kirk frame with his finish sanded junctions.

TIG welding, done by the best such as Carl Strong or Sean Walling at Soulcraft, offer the flexible construction advantages of fillet brazing mentioned above, with a less expensive construction method and very good looking joints.

When I see a lugged frame, I respect it for the extra labor involved in finish filing the lugs, and the artistic side. Fillet brazing doesn't attract my eyes much and seems like extra labor with nothing to show for it (ironically, framebuilders that offer fillet brazing vs. lugged construction charge MORE for the fillet brazed joints).

TIG welding makes me think the builder is making more profit because TIG welded frames take less time to construct vs. lugged or fillet brazed and my first thought is they're cheap. But I get over it once I know of the other qualities the TIG framebuilder offers such as customization, care in construction or alignment, finish, etc.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

here are a couple pages from a vintage peugeot catalogue on their technique:


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I think the ad is misleading.

A good TIG weld (sufficient electrical current and other factors) penetrates the tube completely. The heat affected zone (HAZ) is very small compared to brazing because TIG welding is much faster so there is less heat build up. In a properly done TIG weld, the joint is so strong that the tube will fail before the weld. Too much or too little penetration and yes; the weld will fail.

As for the internal brazing, I've never seen fillet brazed frames cut apart for inspection but I HAVE seen lugged frames dissected. Properly executed, there are no voids, and nor worries.

Those ads are more marketing hype than accurate descriptions. I'm sure the Peugeot is still a fine frame, regardless.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

IMO the choice between lugged or luggless is that of pure aesthetics. Mine happens to be lugged.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

It's more a case of perception today. Back 'in the day', a lugged frame was inevitably lighter; welded frames weighed more, and were weaker due to site hardening from the weld process. A very light tubing could not be 'butt-welded' and have any strength, so those that were (Schwinns, et.al.) made up for this with heavier tubing.

With more modern metallurgy, there are fewer site-hardening issues with welding, and it got to the point that now, there is no real physical advantage to lugged construction, aside from those frames made with more classic tubing types. For most cases, it is more aesthetic than anything else.

FWIW, I love the ride on my Reynolds 531 lugged Trek. My welded aluminum Cannondale doesn't give nearly as nice a ride, but also looks fine to my eyes.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

*I once had an internally brazed PH10LE*













It was not lugged, fileted, or tig'd - as your articles show.

The bike was lighter, even tho from Peugeot Carbolite 103 and mid-range components.






View attachment 317084

I loved it.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

Which manufacturer was tig welding in 1984?


Peter P. said:


> I think the ad is misleading.
> 
> A good TIG weld (sufficient electrical current and other factors) penetrates the tube completely. The heat affected zone (HAZ) is very small compared to brazing because TIG welding is much faster so there is less heat build up. In a properly done TIG weld, the joint is so strong that the tube will fail before the weld. Too much or too little penetration and yes; the weld will fail.
> 
> ...


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

SantaCruz said:


> Which manufacturer was tig welding in 1984?


Certainly the custom mountain bike manufacturers. I know Specialized was TIG welding their mountain bike frames then. I don't know much about TIG welded road frames from that era i.e., if anyone was TIG welding high end road frames in 1984.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

Peter P. said:


> Certainly the custom mountain bike manufacturers. I know Specialized was TIG welding their mountain bike frames then. I don't know much about TIG welded road frames from that era i.e., if anyone was TIG welding high end road frames in 1984.


Aahhhh yes. Custom mtb. Wonder when Tom Richey tigged his first frames???

Those guys don't get enough cred from roadies re the innovations that were started. Headtubes/sets, frame design, etc.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

thanks all.



SantaCruz said:


> I once had an internally brazed PH10LE... loved it.


the one I picked up is the same paint scheme as your old one.

after i bought it and brought it home, i looked closer at the top tube holes for the internal cable routing and thought it was done by a previous owner. it's sorta poorly finished in my opinion. i'm putting non-aero levers on it too, which looks a bit odd with the combo of the internal routing.

and it has helicomatic hubs! that's a first for me. but i got the lock ring off the rear easily with a pair of channel lock pliers. (whew.)


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Those Puegeot frames are most highly machine brazed, once the frame is in the jig the joints are heated and the internally applied brass melts and flows. I doubt that the heat was applied by hand, probably on a carousel that rotated from one tourch\joint station to the next on a timed schedule. Probably had to aligned after being built in the jig. Also probably cheap to build.

But what about bi laminate construction? There are some pretty high end frames built in this way. Have a look at Mitch Pryors work at MAP bicycles.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/albums/72157624937254911

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/albums/72157625854083962


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

^ sweet cluster


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Like many folks here, I have lugged, fillet-brazed, and TIG-welded frames, and like dcgriz said, it all comes down to aesthetics. But to appreciate a fine weld, go to a Walmart or Toys R Us and take a look at the welds on their Mongooses or Schwinns. They are absolutely horrid and scary. Because of this perception of TIG welding = low quality, and what Peter P. said about profits, I now avoid TIG-welded frames. Yes, folks like Strong, Walling, and Steelman are masters of their craft, but I'll pass.

I've always loved lugs, but there is something to be said about a nice fillet-brazed frame, especially if you ride a small frame like I do. Skinny main tubes, pencil-thin seat and chain stays, and clean fillet-brazed welds--you've got my undivided attention! You're photo above illustrates this perfectly; it's a work of art. 

Can we see the rest of the bike?


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

40+ years ago, it was a mark of quality: only cheap, boat-anchor bikes had welded frames, any 'decent' frame was lugged.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

To me, it still is a mark of quality.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

Tachycardic said:


> Can we see the rest of the bike?


check out velodog's second link in post 12.

kinda nice the way it's built up, unpainted.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

blackfrancois said:


> check out velodog's second link in post 12.
> 
> kinda nice the way it's built up, unpainted.


It's even nicer after they painted it white. The man is damned good with the torch, those fillets are pretty even before he puts the file on them.


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

....


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> View attachment 317101


yowza


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## Easyup (Feb 26, 2012)

Considering things like
Magnificent 7
I doubt one can objectively tell. I had one fillet brazed and appreciated the workmanship. I have a LeMond Zurich with welds that I have to avert my eyes at every time it is washed but I have been trashing it around as my vacation bike for many years and it rides beautifully.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

Easyup said:


> Considering things like
> Magnificent 7


I've read the article many times over the years, and totally agree that many riders make too much out of frame materials. The underlined section at the end is a good wrap-up, but says nothing about tires. Tire size and inflation is the primary determinate of ride characteristics.

But back to lugs vs non-lugged. IMO, nice lugs are the most classic, but a filet brazed frame can be the most elegant. The old Peugeot process, done for manufacturing reasons, yielded a clean join of the tubes that looked nice. TIG can yield anything from hideously sloppy to gracefully arcful. Unpainted Ti frames with uniformly consistent welds are also beautiful. And those old Klein frames with smoothed Al welds look brazed as well. 

Personally, it pleases me there are now so many choices in the bike industry. So if you have a bike that rides poorly, you simply made the wrong choice.


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