# Newbie frustrated by lack of improvement in speed and endurance



## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

I am 40 Years old, 5' 10" was 255# and now 235. Riding since Oct 2004. Bianchi imola. I want to be able to ride at least a 14 mph avg for at least 50 miles. I have ridden 900 miles since then.

Currently I do well (well, meaning at least 14 mph) for about 20 miles and then gradually fade till I am done. Usually ending avg is about 12.5 to 13 on a 30 or 35 mile ride.

My perception of exertion is modest at a heart rate below 145. At 150 I feel like I am working and I regularly go from 160 -170+ on hills depending on conditions, the hill, etc. 

6 years ago in much better health, lower weight I would hit a max heart rate on a stair stepper of about 215 bpm. I would estimate my present max to be about 190. Yes, I know. That's pretty high. Resting rate currently is 80 bpm.

Aside from "keep riding your bike" ( I am tired of hearing that) how should I go about increasing my avg speed and my endurance? I have just resumed using the gym to build strength in my legs (min 15 rep sets) and also prefer to use a stair stepper for interval training. How long should the intervals be, how long should the rest phase be and at what heart rate for the interval?

How long should I give a change in the routine to show improvement? I plan to do intervals and weight training 2X per week, 2 recovery rides (45 to 90 mins at about 10 mph) and one big weekend ride and perhaps another ride just for fun each week. I _hope_ to increase miles ridden per week by 10% through the summer and early fall. Realistically there will be some weeks where I hardly ride at all, and this week my riding has been off the chart, 100 miles, which is enormous for me.

Thanks for any feedback.
Fat Man Pedaling
[email protected]


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

With such a high resting HR of 80, I would say you need to work on your base fitness level before trying to improve speed!


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## maclover (Jun 29, 2004)

*that's not a bad resting HR*

80 is not a bad resting HR.

i know you don't want to hear this... but keep riding your bike, and one some days of the week just push yourself harder than you normally would. the more you ride the more endurance you'll have. ride with people faster than you are. everytime you ride with them try to go a little bit farther with them each time before getting dropped.

from personal experience i find riding with faster people has helped me the most.


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## somsoc (Jun 26, 2005)

ggusta said:


> Aside from "keep riding your bike" ( I am tired of hearing that) how should I go about increasing my avg speed and my endurance? I have just resumed using the gym to build strength in my legs (min 15 rep sets) and also prefer to use a stair stepper for interval training. How long should the intervals be, how long should the rest phase be and at what heart rate for the interval?
> 
> How long should I give a change in the routine to show improvement? I plan to do intervals and weight training 2X per week, 2 recovery rides (45 to 90 mins at about 10 mph) and one big weekend ride and perhaps another ride just for fun each week. I _hope_ to increase miles ridden per week by 10% through the summer and early fall. Realistically there will be some weeks where I hardly ride at all, and this week my riding has been off the chart, 100 miles, which is enormous for me.




Ya know I hate to ask this considering your tag but. What are you eating? Are you drinking enough fluids? Tried eating an energy bar every two hours or so? 

Try this, eat some carbs the day before your ride. Before your ride eat 2 grams of carbs per 1 gram of protein. Perhaps one or two peanut butter and jelly sandwitches for example. Drink at least 16oz of water at that time if not more. If you're really adventureous take some gatoraide on the ride (some hate it for various reasons but for a dollar it couldn't hurt) rather than water. The idea is to get plenty of fluids while you're riding. After 2 hours in the saddle eat something, take a break for 5 mins and eat something like a power bar, or even a candy bar. After 4 hours in the saddle, eat a good meal, and take a break for a least a half hour. See if any of that helps. Aside from that you know the drill, see your doctor, if you feel faint stop, personal responsibility etc...

Another hydration note, weigh yourself before your ride, when you're done weigh yourself again, if you lost a lot of weight you need more fluids.

As for the gym, yes anything over 15 rep sets will help you with your endurance. But this won't add bulk, only lifting serious ammounts (near your max) will add bulk. Usually doing this means fewer reps. Stinks doesn't it?

Duration of intervals and rest periods depend on how you feel and your condition, so your doc and your own estimate is the answer there. Your heart rate is another thing to talk to the doc about, but you can look up some charts on the american heart association's web page to get good ideas based on your height, weight, age etc..

You'll see improvement when you see it. Its a gradual thing, you're not going to wake up one morning after doing this for a month and boom be able to do a century magically. But it should be there.

good luck, keep us informed


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

wipeout said:


> With such a high resting HR of 80, I would say you need to work on your base fitness level before trying to improve speed!


OK, but how would you define "working on base fitness"?

As to the heart rate, I have been a lot healthier without a substantial decrease in resting heart rate. I just have a higher than typical heart rate, both max and resting. As I mentioned, when I was in much better shape (6 years ago age 34, about 200#) I'd go way over 200 bpm. I think my resting rate was in the mid 70's. I don't ever recall having a resting rate below 70.

The guy who did the "Fit or Fat" series on PBS years ago said that studies show a certaing number of people just have these heart rates and it doesn't necessarily mean anything by itself.

Thanks for the feedback and more feedback is encouraged.
Gregg


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i think you might be bonking, too. i never used a gel until this year. "take" the gel about 15 minutes before you usually fade, followed by some water. you will get an immediate feeling of strength, but this is mental. a few minutes later you will notice you are feeling pretty good. "take" another gel about 45 minutes later. i like the chocoblast or vanilla bean flavor. stay away from double espresso. almost made me hurl. 
make sure you are hydrating! i ran out of water 2 hours into a ride this week and cramped up. it was 95 out, but still. get over the old footbal coach "water is for wussies" mantra. water is for those smart enough to know it helps.

you seem to have the right training regimen. are you really taking recovery days? those seem to be the hardest thing for me. maybe the area you are riding is hillier than you think? or, as stated, are you eating right? carbs, fruit, veggies, water. a cookie here and there wont kill you, but stay away from potato chips. one leads to two leads to five leads to a bag. not good.

hang in there and dont give up. keep drinking water on the ride. maybe find an easy club to ride with.
and drink your milk!!!


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

On long rides I wear a hydration pack (70 oz) in a small backpack. It has 1 part gatorade, 1 part kool aid (to make the gatorade more palatable) and I do dilute it to about half strength plus a ton of ice. If i don't dilute it, it is sickening to me. 

Another thing I like about the pack is that by carrying all the excess weight (the pack itself is really a large bookbag with a waist strap) I feel like a new man when i go for shorter rides without all that bulk.

I stop at about an hour and at eat a package of Lance crackers (or 2). I am an extremely profuse sweater. Unfortunately, I sweated a lot even when i weighed 170# (13 years ago) so all that sweating is not attributed to getting this fat. I eat plenty of carbs. Only in the past few weeks as my weight loss has plateaud have i even begun to consider eating less.

In my experience, I have two types of hunger. A growling stomach with no loss in energy and a growling stomach that makes me weak and slow. Lately, I have been tending to allow the hunger to go on unless I am feeling weak and slow. I'd like to get below 230# in the near term. Long term (like 6 months to a year) I'd like to get below 200#. Even given the fact that I am built like a truck I am "supposed" to weigh about 185# for my height. (My father called me alternately "Polar Bear" and "Tank" as a child in his own odd loving way.) Weight has been a lifelong problem. It's always either going up or down.

Before my long rides I eat as much as I can without feeling gross. 2-3 eggo waffles (yes, with syrup) and hydrating to the point of having to urinate at least a couple times before we start or early in the ride.

I _love_ food. Only recently have I made a serious attempt to reduce portions but not so much that I am hungry after i am done eating and trying to eat more fruits and vegetables as snacks or with meals.

1 last thing, despite that I only have lost 20 pounds since last summer, I have dramatically changed my shape. People are coming up to me every day and asking me how i have done it and complimenting me. (Sometimes at work these are people I barely even know.) It is very encouraging and inspires me to continue.

Gregg




somsoc said:


> Ya know I hate to ask this considering your tag but. What are you eating? Are you drinking enough fluids? Tried eating an energy bar every two hours or so?
> 
> Try this, eat some carbs the day before your ride. Before your ride eat 2 grams of carbs per 1 gram of protein. Perhaps one or two peanut butter and jelly sandwitches for example. Drink at least 16oz of water at that time if not more. If you're really adventureous take some gatoraide on the ride (some hate it for various reasons but for a dollar it couldn't hurt) rather than water. The idea is to get plenty of fluids while you're riding. After 2 hours in the saddle eat something, take a break for 5 mins and eat something like a power bar, or even a candy bar. After 4 hours in the saddle, eat a good meal, and take a break for a least a half hour. See if any of that helps. Aside from that you know the drill, see your doctor, if you feel faint stop, personal responsibility etc...
> 
> ...


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

It took me a while to figure out how to pedal properly on my mountain bike before
I was able to start having fun at higher speeds.

Get a cadence meter on your bikes computer, and starting spinning > 90 rpm.

Pedaling willy-nilly isn't going to get you anywhere consistently.




ggusta said:


> I am 40 Years old, 5' 10" was 255# and now 235. Riding since Oct 2004. Bianchi imola. I want to be able to ride at least a 14 mph avg for at least 50 miles. I have ridden 900 miles since then.
> 
> Currently I do well (well, meaning at least 14 mph) for about 20 miles and then gradually fade till I am done. Usually ending avg is about 12.5 to 13 on a 30 or 35 mile ride.
> 
> ...


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

*Which Gel to use?*



weltyed said:


> i think you might be bonking, too. i never used a gel until this year. "take" the gel about 15 minutes before you usually fade, followed by some water. you will get an immediate feeling of strength, but this is mental. a few minutes later you will notice you are feeling pretty good. "take" another gel about 45 minutes later. i like the chocoblast or vanilla bean flavor. stay away from double espresso. almost made me hurl.
> make sure you are hydrating! i ran out of water 2 hours into a ride this week and cramped up. it was 95 out, but still. get over the old footbal coach "water is for wussies" mantra. water is for those smart enough to know it helps.
> 
> you seem to have the right training regimen. are you really taking recovery days? those seem to be the hardest thing for me. maybe the area you are riding is hillier than you think? or, as stated, are you eating right? carbs, fruit, veggies, water. a cookie here and there wont kill you, but stay away from potato chips. one leads to two leads to five leads to a bag. not good.
> ...



Which gel do you use?

I am here http://www.nashbar.com/results.cfm?...ry=1070&storetype=&estoreid=&init=y&pagename=

and there's like ...a whole bunch of 'em. Does it make a difference? (Other than taste.)

Is there a cheaper place to buy gel than this? Money is tight.

Milk? Really?

Gregg


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## Browns (Jul 6, 2004)

Do you have a heart rate monitor? These can be very effective in allowing you to gauge improvements in your fitness. These need not be expensive to work, the basic polar models will inform you of your heart rate just the same as the $300++ models.

As to your realitively high resting heart rate this is determined partially by fitness and partially by genetics. Your genes may just dispose you to the higher resting heart rate.

The suggestion of a cycle computer with a cadence monitor is also a good one as it will allow you to improve your technique as you improve your fitness.


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## BarryG (Jul 5, 2004)

900 miles since October suggests you are taking the cycling very casually (50 miles per week or so?). I heartily encourage you to get the cycling up to 100-150 miles per week and bring a lot of discipline to bear in keeping your caloric consumption down to get your weight headed below 200#.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Seconded on the miles thing; 900 miles is some folks monthly total.

If you want to see real improvement, start putting on more miles; 100 to 200 a week is a good total to aim for, building up gradually with time, job, wife, kids, parents, shopping, groceries, chores, pets, kids again, car, permitting.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

ggusta said:


> OK, but how would you define "working on base fitness"?
> 
> As to the heart rate, I have been a lot healthier without a substantial decrease in resting heart rate. I just have a higher than typical heart rate, both max and resting. As I mentioned, when I was in much better shape (6 years ago age 34, about 200#) I'd go way over 200 bpm. I think my resting rate was in the mid 70's. I don't ever recall having a resting rate below 70.
> 
> ...


Judging exertion purely on your HR reading can be misleading. I mean, you can be bench pressing and without your HR ever going past 150 you will still get tired.

I think that firstly you need to work on overall efficiency on the bike. That means steady, smooth pedaling at a range of candence. Some people like to spin at 90+ rpm, some lower, and it's all pretty much good unless you go below 70 rpm.

Think about it this way: your HR is an indicator of how fast your blood is flowing, which in turn indicates how fast your muscles are getting fed oxygen. So it is possible to put yourself in a really, really high gear and pedal slowly: the effect is that your muscle gets sore (hello lactic acid) but your HR is low.

So my guess is that you need to work on your smoothness first, and base fitness second. For the latter, there is not other way than to ride "slowly" -- meaning without fatiguing your muscles too much -- and put in lots of miles and hours into it. In effect, you are forcing your heart to work a little harder than usual, hence increasing your *aerobic* capacity. More serious cyclists usually do this in the winter or in the off-season.

Resting heart rates are different from one person to the next, but its fluctuations *within the same person* can be used as an indicator of fatigue, or fitness. Mine is 44 bpm when I'm well-rested and fit, and can go up to 48-52 bpm when I'm fatigued. Of course, 16-year olds with a resting HR of 90+ bpm routinely kick my ass ;-).

Anyways, I'm happy to hear that you're setting a goal for yourself and working towards it. Good luck on your quest. As cheesy as it sounds, Carmichael's bicycling fitness book is actually not bad for beginners. Something Lance or something whatever. You'll find it in most bookstores.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

olr1 said:


> Seconded on the miles thing; 900 miles is some folks monthly total.
> 
> If you want to see real improvement, start putting on more miles; 100 to 200 a week is a good total to aim for, building up gradually with time, job, wife, kids, parents, shopping, groceries, chores, pets, kids again, car, permitting.


 200 miles is not realistic for Gregg. That is huge mileage for someone without at least 2-3 (or more) years in the saddle. He should shoot for increasing his ride days/goals much more slowly than that. Doubling his milage should be the max increase for the remainder of this year. IMO.
I would suggest finding a twenty mile route that is relatively flat and ride that over and over. Riding the same route helps you monitor your progress and -fatigue. Ride the 20 miler on Tues, and Thursday. Ride 40 to 50 miles on Sunday and be sure to vary the route to keep cycling fun. When you can do that routine without feeling completely wiped out, add a day, preferably Friday. Add miles or more days as endurance permits.
Your weekend rides can increase in mileage as you desire.

As others have noted, a cadence monitor will probably help significantly. Stay in the 85 to 90 rpm rhelm, and work on smoothness of stroke.

Make sure your saddle position is high enough. I see alot of (slow) guys with saddles that are too low, and that a lack of leg extention really creates alot of fatigue. It's possible this could be a factor too your losing speed after time.

One last thought. Go out slow, and build up to your desired speed after a few miles. I find as I go out fast, I actually end up with a slower avg speed.


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## saccycling (Sep 30, 2004)

I started riding again last oct. 2004 after a 5 year lay off. I've ridden 3400 miles since then. My weight has gone from 205 to 185 and my resting heart rate has gone from high 70's to low 60's. When I started, a 14 mile ride is all I could do before resting. Now I do 60 mile rides and planning on increasing to 70 soon. You need to push yourself as hard as you can, then rest for a few minutes. Then go again. If you want to improve you need to put the miles in. Idealy keep your heart rate about 70% of max.


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## KenB (Jul 28, 2004)

ggusta said:


> I am 40 Years old, 5' 10" was 255# and now 235. Riding since Oct 2004. Bianchi imola. I want to be able to ride at least a 14 mph avg for at least 50 miles. I have ridden 900 miles since then.
> 
> Currently I do well (well, meaning at least 14 mph) for about 20 miles and then gradually fade till I am done. Usually ending avg is about 12.5 to 13 on a 30 or 35 mile ride.


 
Here's what has worked for me, in addition to all of the hydration and carb intake advice (very critcal): Do at least one ride each week of short lenght but high intensity. I have a 10 miler that is mostly around a 5% grade that I go all out on. On the way home from that ride, I go sloooow. Then I do my normal rides that usually average 30 to 60 miles. I don't really care about speed on those rides as I'm more into for the scenery and the ride than anything else but I can say that my average speed has definitely benefited from my short, 'fast' ride as has my endurance in general to the point where I look down at my computer and think "Wow, I'm going pretty fast!"

You also have to ride as much as possible. Once a week, for example, isn't going to help you much in terms of averages. Also, don't shy away from the hills. I'm not much smaller than you (5-9/200) and they kill me too but they help make you stronger.


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## two wheel texan (Jun 26, 2005)

It sounds like you may be doing too much to soon and not letting your body recover completely. I would suggest keep trying to build a fitness base by riding more times per week and cut back on the weight and interval work. Schedule a couple of easy days on the bike at a very slow pace to just flush out your legs. Schedule a couple of more days at a tempo based pace for longer distances and then one long ride per week at a comfortable pace that you can handle for the entire length of the ride. Until you get a good fitness base I wouldn't worry about trying to increase your speed as once you do that the speed will come. As you increase your fitness your resting heart rate should come down and it may help you to keep a log of your resting heart rate every morning. If you find that is still elavated the next day after a hard ride you may want to schedule a easy day or not ride at all to allow yourself to recover. The body will get stronger over time but you have to give it the rest it needs after exercising it in order for it to adapt to the higher workload you are requiring of it. I started riding last year and was having a similiar problem that you are and I finally started realizing that increasing my fitness level wasn't a race but a long distance journey that didn't have an end. I also realized that my body wasn't recovering as fast now that I am older (50+) and needed the extra rest or lower intensity workouts in order to adapt. Riding with my wife at very slow speeds for 15-20 miles a couple of times a week along with riding a long ride on the weekend with a group at a moderate pace really seemed to help my speed and fitness level. I am now starting to watch my diet along with increasing my mileage so I can drop some extra weight that I am carrying. This combination has worked for me to the point that now I amaze myself at how fast I can go compared to a few months ago and am now looking to join other group rides on the weekends that run at a slightly faster pace. Keep riding and eating right while giving your body the rest it needs and I am sure that your speed will increase.


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## MrDan (Jan 23, 2003)

*Low mileage + quality miles...*

In order of most to least importance...

1) When you ride, choose either to ride longer or faster, or both... you just simply
have to suffer a bit to keep making gains. If it's a normal 1 hour ride, ride a bit harder,
yeah, it's gonna hurt a bit, but it's the only way to improve ... work through the mental pain
and see what you've got. Make the most of the time that you have... coasting along being
comfortable isn't going to help you improve.

2) Alternate hard/easy workouts... if you blast one day, then rest one day and make the next ride a longer one.

3) Ditch the kool-aid. Look in to nutrition and electrolytes since you know you sweat so profusely.

4) You are not out to kiil yourself, but you need to push the envelope and hang in through some pain. When on the flats, press for the higher speed even though it makes you uncomfortable. Push a bit for 1/2 - 1/3 of the hill you hate... then sit down and recover...
you have to push yourself some, but not to the point of hurting yourself in your state of training...

-Good Luck
-D


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## Bikehigh (Aug 2, 2004)

Frankly, as some one who has been riding less than a year, you should ditch the HRM, and stop looking at the speedometer too. If you want to use a computer use it to track milage. If you want to get better, and I know you don't want to hear this, you need to ride. IMHO, using riding as a workout takes the joy out of it, and you're gonna burn out. You're already burning out. Let the fitness cycling brings be a fringe benefit of going out, having fun, and destressing. The biggest thing you need to do is ride with others. Whether you ride with folks who are slower, faster, or whatever, ride with others. There's nothing like riding with others to get you faster and better. It's just natural to push yourself to keep the pace, even push the pace, and keep up on the hills. You'll push yourself hearder ridning with others than you ever will riding alone. 

With regard to the gym, drop it. In my experience, and I'm no expert, nothing hurts cycling more than cross training your legs. I love to hike, but if I do a 15 mile hike, I pay the price the next time I ride. 

With regard to hydration, you need to hydrate every day, not just on the days you ride. If you sweat like you say, you should be drinking a gallon of water even on the days you're not riding. I do. You won't believe the benefit being properly hydrated will have on your performance. And that's water BTW, not fluids, not sport drinks, not iced tea, not diet soda. If you're working out doors every day like me, then by all means do something to replace your electrolytes, but for the majority of people it's not needed.

So anyway, that's my two cents. Stop treating riding like you're a pro athlete, ride with others, no machine work, and hydrate. Take it for what it's worth, remembering that this advice is free.


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## harvey (Feb 27, 2005)

*Weight*

If you 've been 185 in the past and now you're 235, that's likely your biggest problem. Your heart is working harder and you are lugging an extra 50 punds around on the bike. I'm sure if a lot of folks on this thread had to ride a 70 pound bike instead of a 20 pounder, their average speeds would suffer too. Lose those pounds and then keep them down by cycling.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

My two cents. Get out and ride more. Don't worry about recovery, you're still pretty young and you're not pushing yourself that much yet. A lot of the anecdotal information on needing recovery is trickle down information from racers who put in 10-15 hours per week on the bike. If you're putting in 50 miles a week, make them all tempo (just feeling the exertion) to hard. Here's a sample weekly schedule at 60 miles/week.

Sunday 25 miles, with some 20-30 minute intervals of hard breathing.
monday-off
tuesday, 15 miles of all out.
wednesday-off
thursday-10-15 miles of some mixed efforts, hard up some hills, easy on the flats
friday off
saturday - 10-15 miles, nothing too hard.

This shouldn't take you more than 5 hours per week. If you want to improve, move thursday to wednesday, add in another workout on friday, and up every ride mileage by 5 miles. If you're not feeling tired/run down, you probably don't need more recovery. Last thing, don't worry about carbs for anything less than 2 hours. Take some gatorade and that should last you 2 hours no problem. Skip the eggos w/syrup, that's the kind of meal to eat before doing 50 miles. Also, the pack may be a good mental exercise, but it's probably only leading to more sweating, making it difficult for you to stay hydrated. I am also a profuse sweater, and in the summer it of course gets worse. Think about carrying a water bottle instead.

Final piece of advice, don't worry about gadgets yet. Your best HR monitor comes included in the package, it's your brain! I would ride with some other people from time to time just to make sure you're pushing yourself, but otherwise you should be able to tell how hard you're going.

Lastly, enjoy yourself, lose the weight and you'll be a changed man,

Silas


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*A couple of random thoughts.*

First of all , re Heartrate. You are what you are. No one's heartrate reacts the same (IMO). I'll give you an example....me.....I've been riding off and on for 30+ years (mostly on). I'm 50 YO with a max of 200 and a resting of about 70. In the last 15 years the lowest resting I've ever gotten wa around 60 (and that was riding 220 miles/week in structured training. Learn your own body and don't bother comparing yourself with others. The second thing is, Max HR is useless (IMO) for training purposes. Learn your LT and train against that.

As to your goal of increasing average speed and endurance. Everyone has their own recipe (as evidenced by this thread). Me, the most improvement I made was when I committed to and followed a structured training program. I selected Friels (Racer's training Bible) because I thought is was the most complete and It started with honest baseline testing so you could figure your strengths and weaknesses. It also followed a periodization plan (which fit well with my running backround). There are others and all of them will work if you are patient and follow them.

Don't expect instant gratification. Even at 50, I feel like I get a lttle stronger every year. There is a lot to learn.

One of the things you will learn from a good program is that every ride has a purpose (even if it is just to ride easy to recover). There are very few junk miles in a good program.

To get stronger, you will have to push yourself, and it will hurt.....but it's the good kind of hurt.

With your total miles since Oce, I'm not surpised that when you get above 30+ miles your speed decreases, you need to build more endurance miles (a good base) to feel strong for a long ride. Others are right, nutrition and hydration are as important as leg strength when riding distance. You need to be eating continually (I find I need 250 calaries/hour to stay stoked, I have a pretty high metabilism...you need to find your own amount). Experiment as much with this as riding.

Good luck and be patient.

Len


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## twelvepercent (Nov 7, 2004)

Base miles....
For cycling, like many sports that involve endurance, power, and power endurance, you will need to establish a very solid base before you focus on power. Power endurance is the next step that may take years before your body is ready to handle the rigors and abuse of true interval training.
Cycling uses the largest muscles in the body; and therefore it is easy to produce alot of lactic acid in the quad muscles. When the muscles are forced to operate with less than the optimal amount of oxygen (anaerobic metabolism), you produce lactic acid (this is the "burning" feeling).
The idea behind a huge base of "easy" miles is to build a huge network of capillaries that will allow more oxygen to fuel the muscles. When you are at a failure rate of exertion, your capillaries are closing down; so the idea is that the more capillaries you have, the higher the "anaerobic threshold", and in turn, the higher the output.
Once you have established a good base, then you can begin training "power" (defined as max. # of musle fibers recruited at one time) Be aware that power training may only provide noticeable gains if it is done 4 to 6 weeks every 6 or 8 months (or even up to 12 depending on fitness)
Also be aware that at our age you may need twice the rest to recover from a "power" workout than an 18 yr. old (and maybe more) and a 55-60yr. old may need 2 to 3x more rest from power training than a 40 yr. old. Gains in power often hit a max level after a certain period and you must wait another "cycle" to gain another level; the "cycle" may be 6 to 12 months.
The next step in the cycle is "power endurance" which is recruiting the max. # of muscle fibers over a "long" (8-10 min. or more) period. Even if you are well prepared for this interval training, you will still need a good recovery period (up to a month) following your training "cycle".
So in the beginning (you may not want to hear this!) you need thousands of "easy" miles; get out and ride as much as you possibly can; turn yourself into a human bicycle and then your power will come more easily and your times will improve dramatically.
Good Luck!!


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

Browns said:


> Do you have a heart rate monitor? These can be very effective in allowing you to gauge improvements in your fitness. These need not be expensive to work, the basic polar models will inform you of your heart rate just the same as the $300++ models.
> 
> As to your realitively high resting heart rate this is determined partially by fitness and partially by genetics. Your genes may just dispose you to the higher resting heart rate.
> 
> The suggestion of a cycle computer with a cadence monitor is also a good one as it will allow you to improve your technique as you improve your fitness.


I have a heart rate mon. and use it. It is not full featured but does provide details as to how much of my ride was ridden below zone, above zone and in zone as well as current heart rate and whether that rate is in above or below zone as set by me. (Sports instruments cycle computer)

As to cadence, I presume, without doing the math frequently but based on comments from much more experienced riding companions that I do have a good quality spin. I assume my cadence is not as fast as it is supposed to be (80+/min.) but that I am conscious of it and make an effort to to spin fast and not to ride in too high a gear. I will make a better effort on future rides to do the math. 

I have a bad left knee and it tells me to use lower gears particularly on hills.

Gregg


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

twelvepercent said:


> Base miles....
> For cycling, like many sports that involve endurance, power, and power endurance, you will need to establish a very solid base before you focus on power. Power endurance is the next step that may take years before your body is ready to handle the rigors and abuse of true interval training.
> Cycling uses the largest muscles in the body; and therefore it is easy to produce alot of lactic acid in the quad muscles. When the muscles are forced to operate with less than the optimal amount of oxygen (anaerobic metabolism), you produce lactic acid (this is the "burning" feeling).
> The idea behind a huge base of "easy" miles is to build a huge network of capillaries that will allow more oxygen to fuel the muscles. When you are at a failure rate of exertion, your capillaries are closing down; so the idea is that the more capillaries you have, the higher the "anaerobic threshold", and in turn, the higher the output.
> ...


Your post makes a lot of sense, but Boy, do I hate accepting what you say!  

I feel like I have entered a world (cycling) that I am woefully ill prepared to assimilate into. _Mentally_ and physically. I am re-evaluating what my true goals are and re-prioritizing. I am more at home in the gym, but find the gym dull. I like the bike. But losing weight/losing inches/improving shape/getting stronger and healthier is the priority. 

However, spending more time in the gym, if I am inferring the general tenor of the posts correctly, states that time away from the bike will delay or stop the goal of faster and longer. Ughhh....

Gregg


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

weltyed said:


> i think you might be bonking, too. i never used a gel until this year. "take" the gel about 15 minutes before you usually fade, followed by some water. you will get an immediate feeling of strength, but this is mental. a few minutes later you will notice you are feeling pretty good. "take" another gel about 45 minutes later. i like the chocoblast or vanilla bean flavor. stay away from double espresso. almost made me hurl.
> make sure you are hydrating! i ran out of water 2 hours into a ride this week and cramped up. it was 95 out, but still. get over the old footbal coach "water is for wussies" mantra. water is for those smart enough to know it helps.
> 
> you seem to have the right training regimen. are you really taking recovery days? those seem to be the hardest thing for me. maybe the area you are riding is hillier than you think? or, as stated, are you eating right? carbs, fruit, veggies, water. a cookie here and there wont kill you, but stay away from potato chips. one leads to two leads to five leads to a bag. not good.
> ...


I'll be trying the gels. Actually found a link at cptips.com that gives a recipe for making gels.

Has anyone successfully made their own?

Gregg


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## Browns (Jul 6, 2004)

ggusta said:


> I have a heart rate mon. and use it. It is not full featured but does provide details as to how much of my ride was ridden below zone, above zone and in zone as well as current heart rate and whether that rate is in above or below zone as set by me. (Sports instruments cycle computer)
> 
> As to cadence, I presume, without doing the math frequently but based on comments from much more experienced riding companions that I do have a good quality spin. I assume my cadence is not as fast as it is supposed to be (80+/min.) but that I am conscious of it and make an effort to to spin fast and not to ride in too high a gear. I will make a better effort on future rides to do the math.
> 
> ...


Gregg,
In your case I would try using the heart rate monitor to track your fitness as it progresses rather than as a guide while you are on the bike. As you become more fit you should be able to average a lower heart rate for the same amount of effort. If you are interested in charting your progress it is worth keeping a log of your rides, detailing the milege, average speed and average heart rate at a bare minimum. That way you can look back at your log and see what kind of progress you are making.


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

BarryG said:


> 900 miles since October suggests you are taking the cycling very casually (50 miles per week or so?). I heartily encourage you to get the cycling up to 100-150 miles per week and bring a lot of discipline to bear in keeping your caloric consumption down to get your weight headed below 200#.


100 miles every week is probably not realistic right now. There have been some spand that either due to weather or illness i did not get much riding in. Typical week is about 65 right now. Now that I have addedd 2 gym days per week mileage could actually drop since my recovery rides at up to so few miles.

100-120 miles on a good week is doable but not every week.

Selling home, moving, 4 year old child, 2 jobs, own business, debt up to my eyeballs, overweight, ball and chain, iow, your average American male. It's hard to find the time to ride 100 miles in a week, especially when the bike is moving so slow it barely stays on 2 wheels. I've been so busy screwing up my life.  

Gregg


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

AlexCad5 said:


> 200 miles is not realistic for Gregg. That is huge mileage for someone without at least 2-3 (or more) years in the saddle. He should shoot for increasing his ride days/goals much more slowly than that. Doubling his milage should be the max increase for the remainder of this year. IMO.
> I would suggest finding a twenty mile route that is relatively flat and ride that over and over. Riding the same route helps you monitor your progress and -fatigue. Ride the 20 miler on Tues, and Thursday. Ride 40 to 50 miles on Sunday and be sure to vary the route to keep cycling fun. When you can do that routine without feeling completely wiped out, add a day, preferably Friday. Add miles or more days as endurance permits.
> Your weekend rides can increase in mileage as you desire.
> 
> ...


That was an interesting comment on going out slow. Although I rarely intentionally go out fast these days (since foolishly attempting to keep up on group c pace rides and getting buried badly a couple times, I generally ride with people who know we are not going to hit a 14 mph avg on a ride at the outset. Some of them ride much fatser rates in their own groups.) There are times however when I start out at about 14.5 for the first 20 miles without really making a conscious effort, but after 20 miles I just can't maintain an effort that seemed effortless just 40 minutes earlier. I am thinking it's largely due to a combo of dehydration (despite the camelbak) and nutrition.

I believe I pedal pretty well and also have been told. Doubtful that I maintain an 85 rpm currently, though. Probably more like 75. Cadence is something I work on on every ride as well as smoothness. Increases don't happen all at once but I am working in the right direction there I think.

As to the seat, another interesting comment. I have been raising it slowly and steadily for about a month. I really have no explanation for why it was low. I should have known better.

I have been increasing mileage weekly, with the exception of illness, which has dogged me since the springtime and has made me miss entire weeks. (Sinus and bronchitis problems. I am being tested for allergies and possible second round of surgery to straighten me out after a tricycle accident when I was 5 pretty much smashed my nose in.)

Gregg


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

two wheel texan said:


> It sounds like you may be doing too much to soon and not letting your body recover completely. I would suggest keep trying to build a fitness base by riding more times per week and cut back on the weight and interval work. Schedule a couple of easy days on the bike at a very slow pace to just flush out your legs. Schedule a couple of more days at a tempo based pace for longer distances and then one long ride per week at a comfortable pace that you can handle for the entire length of the ride. Until you get a good fitness base I wouldn't worry about trying to increase your speed as once you do that the speed will come. As you increase your fitness your resting heart rate should come down and it may help you to keep a log of your resting heart rate every morning. If you find that is still elavated the next day after a hard ride you may want to schedule a easy day or not ride at all to allow yourself to recover. The body will get stronger over time but you have to give it the rest it needs after exercising it in order for it to adapt to the higher workload you are requiring of it. I started riding last year and was having a similiar problem that you are and I finally started realizing that increasing my fitness level wasn't a race but a long distance journey that didn't have an end. I also realized that my body wasn't recovering as fast now that I am older (50+) and needed the extra rest or lower intensity workouts in order to adapt. Riding with my wife at very slow speeds for 15-20 miles a couple of times a week along with riding a long ride on the weekend with a group at a moderate pace really seemed to help my speed and fitness level. I am now starting to watch my diet along with increasing my mileage so I can drop some extra weight that I am carrying. This combination has worked for me to the point that now I amaze myself at how fast I can go compared to a few months ago and am now looking to join other group rides on the weekends that run at a slightly faster pace. Keep riding and eating right while giving your body the rest it needs and I am sure that your speed will increase.


Our experiences seem very analagous. With the possible exception that I have no patience for the results to show up.

Gregg


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

Browns said:


> Gregg,
> In your case I would try using the heart rate monitor to track your fitness as it progresses rather than as a guide while you are on the bike. As you become more fit you should be able to average a lower heart rate for the same amount of effort. If you are interested in charting your progress it is worth keeping a log of your rides, detailing the milege, average speed and average heart rate at a bare minimum. That way you can look back at your log and see what kind of progress you are making.


One thing I have noticed in terms of my fitness is my heart rate! Earlier on, I would zoom past 150 on the slightest incline and possibly into the 170's for steeper grades. Now it increases more gradually. The more dramatic change has been the rate at which it drops after the hill is crested. Earlier it would stay above 150 for quite some time. Now it goes into the 130's or even 120's very quickly after the exertion is done. And being the impatient kid at heart that I am it only encourages to start hammering away since to me it looks like I have 20bpm to play with.  That foolshness is probably also hurting me on the long rides.

Gregg


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*A general thought.*

Reading your posts, I come away impressed with your obvious aptitude and willingness to engage in structured training. No way I could go to a gym and even try to do what you do. But I also sense that you can't quite see yourself doing repetitious and structured training on the bike.

I'd like to suggest that you do two things: set aside one day a week to do some repetitive, controlled bike riding. Then find a lonely stretch of road near your home where you can do that and to which you can return time and time again. That stretch of road needs to become your gym that day. Your bike needs to become your set of weights that day. Go back and forth on that stretch of road - what does it matter? The goal is a workout, not how many miles you can cover in how many minutes.

You're obviously very motivated, and you will succeed.


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## twelvepercent (Nov 7, 2004)

Nutrition is also very important....
If your diet is not great, you may experience surprising increases in recovery and performance
with an optimum diet.
I have personally done very well with the "zone" diet authored by Barry Sears.Mr. Sears is a very interesting individual who pursued the study of lipids (fats) in an effort to understand his family history of cardiovascular disease and how he might avoid the same problems as his father and relatives.
In a nutshell, Sears found that moderating insulin secretion from the pancreas was key in improving athletic performance, consistent energy levels, muscle recovery, and long term health.
After searching for the "holy grail" of magic potions, he finally found that a 9:7 ratio of low glycemic carbs TO high quality protein; along with an adjustable level of high quality fat (according to athletic needs) was the "magic" formula". "glycemic index" is defined as the speed at which sugars enter the bloodstream; i.e. a high glycemic carb that "spikes" blood sugar levels quickley will cause a surge of insulin from the pancreas; and according to Sears wreaks havoc on the body in several ways.The one exception is that during the "glycogen window" (within one hour after a strenuous workout) high glycemic carbs are beneficial in replenishing glycogen stores.
People that can easily store body fat, become "tired" after a meal and often "bonk" mid-workout will notice immediate benefits from the Zone diet.
Personally, I get most all of my protein from whey protein powder. I also eat vegetarian "meats" and tofu, etc. that seem to be less efficient for musle recovery than a whey protein shake, but make a great meal. I do not eat meat or fish, but distilled fish oils are extremely beneficial for health and performance and contain no mercury or industrial toxins.If you do eat meat, try to have small portions very lean cuts only a few times a week. Fish is quite good for muscle recovery I am told, but stay away from ALL farmed fishes (super high in PCB's), and educate yourself about mercury levels in wild varieties. (try Optimum brand whey protein and make smoothies; you will not regret it!)
So....30gr of high quality protein to 40gr carbs (fruits, veggies,sprouted whole grains) and up to, or even more than 20gr GOOD fat (cold pressed monounsaturated oils,nuts, avocados,etc.) every 3 hours for optimum results;( difficult to do, but the closer you get to 6 small meals a day, the better you will feel.)
Hope this helps!


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

wim said:


> Reading your posts, I come away impressed with your obvious aptitude and willingness to engage in structured training. No way I could go to a gym and even try to do what you do. But I also sense that you can't quite see yourself doing repetitious and structured training on the bike.
> 
> I'd like to suggest that you do two things: set aside one day a week to do some repetitive, controlled bike riding. Then find a lonely stretch of road near your home where you can do that and to which you can return time and time again. That stretch of road needs to become your gym that day. Your bike needs to become your set of weights that day. Go back and forth on that stretch of road - what does it matter? The goal is a workout, not how many miles you can cover in how many minutes.
> 
> You're obviously very motivated, and you will succeed.


It's just that I have my bearings in a gym. As for the bike, I am in the dark at this point. That should eventually change. Slowly. Eventually.

I used to hate the stair stepper, until I realized it could improve my endurance at racquetball. Then it became an end unto itself.

Gregg


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

> _It's just that I have my bearings in a gym. As for the bike, I am in the dark at this point. That should eventually change. Slowly. Eventually._


Right - just establish for yourself a stretch of road on which you will have your bearings, just as you have them now in your gym. And yes, take your time. You'll sort through a lot of information about cycling, separate the useful from the useless and eventually come up with something that works for you.


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## Gvl_M3 (Feb 22, 2005)

I've had the same "concerns" as you regarding my performance level. I wasn't pleased with my overall average. I am not able to ride consistently (one week on, one or two weeks off) so I know that is part of it.

One mental change I made was to consciously focus on keeping my cadence up on the gradual hills and pushing through the pain a little more than I had. What triggered this was I saw some riders ahead as I started up a 1 mile hill. It looked like I was catching them, so I pushed harder and ended passing them 3/4 to the top. Felt good (even though they were on mtn bikes at the end of their ride). After that hill, I had an Ah-Ha moment and told myself "self, you have been giving up too early on the climbs, thus slowing down your ave."

Hope that helps.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Listen to 12%*

FWIW, there are lots of us with varying abilities to recover well as we ride, run or swim. If your body doesn't recover well as you workout, you'll hit a wall of improvement and never get any better. I'm a mediocre Cat 4 and have been for 5 years. I've tried a variety of training styles (that's real training, with a coach, etc.) and I'm just not going to get any better. But here's the real lesson, I STILL LOVE RIDING, RUNNING, AND SWIMMING JUST AS MUCH. 

Keep pushing yourself. Get to a point where you really train, not just ride around a lot which is what most people call "training." Live the life. Eat right. Sleep right. Party right. Learn to be an Eastern Mystic if you'd like. But recognize that you cannot out-train genetics. If you cannot recover well, you'll be stuck at some point. That's the limiting factor for all endurance athletes. 

BT


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

twelvepercent said:


> Nutrition is also very important....
> If your diet is not great, you may experience surprising increases in recovery and performance
> with an optimum diet.
> I have personally done very well with the "zone" diet authored by Barry Sears.Mr. Sears is a very interesting individual who pursued the study of lipids (fats) in an effort to understand his family history of cardiovascular disease and how he might avoid the same problems as his father and relatives.
> ...


You said a mouthful there!  

I am under the assumption that my "bad eating habits" both pre-ride, during ride and in-general are a factor in my early fading. Additionally I see dragging a 50# butt with me wherever I go as being a factor in weariness. The two may or may not be related. Film at 11.

Slower than expected recovery might also be attributed. Gosh, does impatience seem to be a recurring theme?  

Got it! 

Gregg


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

Improvement rate isn't linear. Don't think that if you increase your mileage by X% your fitness will increase at the same rate; it doesn't work that way.

One day without much fuss you will find yourself going faster/longer/easier than you did before. This of course doesn't happen on a set schedule but if you keep riding it will happen.

BTW from my point of view you aren't riding much so it will take longer to improve than if you were riding say 100+ miles a week every week. However as you increase miles per week your performance will fall off until your body adapts to the longer distances.

There is nothing easy about hard work.


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## buddylee (Apr 12, 2004)

*just keep working...*

Yep, it's that easy. You set your goals and figure out how long you are willing to work to reach them. Most fitness goals take a long time... just keep a positive attitude.

Eat well, before, during and after!
(you can actually stop losing weight if you are not eating enough)
Work on finding a comfortable cadence for you... 90 might work for some, but not for everyone. be comfortable on the bike.

Set your goals in time on the bike, not mileage or speed. Don't focus on how fast you are going. If you must know how you are progressing, set up a time trial test every 60 to 90 days and test yourself. But for everyday riding, just spend time in the saddle, do as many HOURs a week as you can. 3 to 6 hours a week can help you make great improvements. 

Keep it fun! If you don't keep it fun, you will lose interest. And losing interest will not help you get fit. 

Of course, all of this can be backed very scientifically, but keep it simple until you are ready to become crazypsychoobsessed cyclist.


Of course, all of this can be backed very scientifically, but keep it simple until you are ready to become crazyphsycoobsessed cyclist.


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## Xyzzy (Mar 22, 2004)

I ride with Gregg sometimes... I think he is being too hard on himself... While he hasn't lost much weight, he looks like a totally different person than the first time I met him...

I think he just needs more base "fun" miles... IMO, riding should be something you look forward to... When it is fun you will find ways to get out there no matter what...

Some people respond faster than others to training stress... If you take a long term (many years) approach you will be successful...

But seriously, get out and ride some more with me, okay?


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## buddylee (Apr 12, 2004)

*exactly...*



Xyzzy said:


> I ride with Gregg sometimes... I think he is being too hard on himself... While he hasn't lost much weight, he looks like a totally different person than the first time I met him...
> 
> I think he just needs more base "fun" miles... IMO, riding should be something you look forward to... When it is fun you will find ways to get out there no matter what...
> 
> ...


Where are you guys located. I know in our area, DC, we have tons of groups of all levels, it's fun to ride with groups. Find some and get out, like Xyzzy says, get out and ride with him, chat while riding, makes the time go by faster and doesnt make it feel like "exercise".


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*ease up*



ggusta said:


> You said a mouthful there!
> 
> I am under the assumption that my "bad eating habits" both pre-ride, during ride and in-general are a factor in my early fading. Additionally I see dragging a 50# butt with me wherever I go as being a factor in weariness. The two may or may not be related. Film at 11.
> 
> ...


Recover properly. The only way you will see results is to (man you will hate this), stop looking for them. I am a former 300+ pounder now 195, so TRUST ME, I know what the frustration is.

Your resting HR is not realistic right now if you feel fatigued. Odds are, you are tired and guess what? Higher HR. You will need to up mileage to see maintainable weight loss. NOTE maintainable. Start with getting some estimate as to what you consume calorically. How many cals? Now, what are you burning? Its cruel and its heartless, but burning less than what you consume is the odds on favorite to weight gain. Nothing fancy here.

The best advice I received for training was to rest on rest days. Training discipline also refers to the ability to NOT train when it is a rest day. Just my 2 cents etc etc etc 

Good luck and above all, have fun


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

buddylee said:


> Where are you guys located. I know in our area, DC, we have tons of groups of all levels, it's fun to ride with groups. Find some and get out, like Xyzzy says, get out and ride with him, chat while riding, makes the time go by faster and doesnt make it feel like "exercise".


We are in Raleigh NC and yes there are loads of groups. In fact I have had a hand in forming one called Slow Spokes  . Yes it does make the time go by, I was riding with this guy one a couple weeks ago and we got into this huge political argument over public education and I don't have any recollection of the last 10 miles of the ride. I wonder whatever happened to that guy...  

Gregg


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

ttug said:


> Recover properly. The only way you will see results is to (man you will hate this), stop looking for them. I am a former 300+ pounder now 195, so TRUST ME, I know what the frustration is.
> 
> Your resting HR is not realistic right now if you feel fatigued. Odds are, you are tired and guess what? Higher HR. You will need to up mileage to see maintainable weight loss. NOTE maintainable. Start with getting some estimate as to what you consume calorically. How many cals? Now, what are you burning? Its cruel and its heartless, but burning less than what you consume is the odds on favorite to weight gain. Nothing fancy here.
> 
> ...


I have a lot of fun riding my bike, I just want to be able to ride in groups other than the very few people I have found that are willing to avg 13 mph. C paced rides here at least usually advert. a min 14 mph pace and the ones I have been on (and been dropped on) did in fact hold to that. There are a whole lot more groups riding at 14+ than sub 14. Plus I'd like to do the 14mph for at least 50 - 60 miles. Eventually a century a several times a year. Eventually!

Here's my only issue with what you wrote: I AM seeing substantial changes in my appearance as I mentioned in an earlier response, my weight loss is not what I had imagined it would be based on the change in my shape. (Went from 255 to 235). If I have managed to change my shape by getting stronger and haven't even really lost a lot of weight, then why isn't that added strength translating into either greater speed or endurance than it did 7 months ago?

I suppose based on the number of people mentioning that I may not be recovering adequately that I should give that more of a chance. I am ignorant as to many of these issues, although not so ignorant that if I feel weak, then maybe I should not push it that day. I am not feeling fatigued frequently, but when I do I rest as much as I can. (My job at FedEx makes no allowances for rest! It's physically demanding and in the summer it's demanding in absurd heat and humidity, and worst of all when it's very sunny. Cargo portion of the truck can be an oven on a sunny day. A _REAL_ oven.)

Rest more ride more eat less eat better. I think that is the general consensus.

Personally, as I have had some days to reflect on this thread and my progress: 
The paltry weight loss is really P***ing me off. I want to get below 230 as soon as is reasonable. Not via starvation but by eating smarter and riding/exercising more.

I will try to ride with faster groups but already having once been picked up by the ride leader in his car 4 miles from the finish, I am not eager to revisit that type of embarrassment. Suffering alone is more palatable. At least I don't have to fail in so spectacular a fashion. 

Riding/exercising more and eating better is probably going to be the "easiest" and "fastest" route to achieveing all of these goals.

In quotes because they will be neither.

Gregg


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*slower please*



ggusta said:


> I have a lot of fun riding my bike, I just want to be able to ride in groups other than the very few people I have found that are willing to avg 13 mph. C paced rides here at least usually advert. a min 14 mph pace and the ones I have been on (and been dropped on) did in fact hold to that. There are a whole lot more groups riding at 14+ than sub 14. Plus I'd like to do the 14mph for at least 50 - 60 miles. Eventually a century a several times a year. Eventually!
> 
> Here's my only issue with what you wrote: I AM seeing substantial changes in my appearance as I mentioned in an earlier response, my weight loss is not what I had imagined it would be based on the change in my shape. (Went from 255 to 235). If I have managed to change my shape by getting stronger and haven't even really lost a lot of weight, then why isn't that added strength translating into either greater speed or endurance than it did 7 months ago?
> 
> ...


Strength and endurance are not going to have the relationship you describe. You can be super freakish strong. However, if you dont have a good base, you will never have "better" endurance. 2 different things here. What is your current training goal? Short term?


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

ttug said:


> Strength and endurance are not going to have the relationship you describe. You can be super freakish strong. However, if you dont have a good base, you will never have "better" endurance. 2 different things here. What is your current training goal? Short term?


My goal short term is to be able to complete a 40 mile ride at 14 mph. Currently able to do so at slightly over 13.

As I mentioned in my initial post, I complete the first 20 miles at about 14.5 with what seems like no effort whatsoever and at 20 miles I am just a whole different person. I suspect nutrition and hydration are playing a factor in such a night and day change in about a 3 mile span.

C paced group rides are advertised as 14-17 and typically are 30 or 40 miles. I'd like to be able to complete without being a half mile behind the next to last rider.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*excellent goal*



ggusta said:


> My goal short term is to be able to complete a 40 mile ride at 14 mph. Currently able to do so at slightly over 13.
> 
> As I mentioned in my initial post, I complete the first 20 miles at about 14.5 with what seems like no effort whatsoever and at 20 miles I am just a whole different person. I suspect nutrition and hydration are playing a factor in such a night and day change in about a 3 mile span.
> 
> C paced group rides are advertised as 14-17 and typically are 30 or 40 miles. I'd like to be able to complete without being a half mile behind the next to last rider.


How much (time, not miles) tempo riding do you do?


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

From what I hear, 
- if you want to burn fat, you need to excercise for a long time at a low intensity. 
- if you want to improve endurance, you also need to excercise for a long time at a low intensity.

At low intensity your body burns fat and LEARNS to burn fat, instead of sugar. People run out of sugar but they do not run out of fat (even the slim guys).


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

perttime said:


> From what I hear,
> - if you want to burn fat, you need to excercise for a long time at a low intensity.
> - if you want to improve endurance, you also need to excercise for a long time at a low intensity.
> 
> At low intensity your body burns fat and LEARNS to burn fat, instead of sugar. People run out of sugar but they do not run out of fat (even the slim guys).


I would say this is bad advice for someone with a limited training schedule. Make the most of your limited time by going at tempo and faster. By going faster you will burn more total calories than going slower, and since you're not going for too long you will be able to do this often without your body breaking down.

Silas


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*nope*



perttime said:


> From what I hear,
> - if you want to burn fat, you need to excercise for a long time at a low intensity.
> - if you want to improve endurance, you also need to excercise for a long time at a low intensity.
> 
> At low intensity your body burns fat and LEARNS to burn fat, instead of sugar. People run out of sugar but they do not run out of fat (even the slim guys).



The most elite athletes in the world, barely manage to utilize the potential of the energy in their fat. It takes a freakish level of fitness to get there.

Long slow does not do any better to burn fat. Most of the time fat % will decrease as you gain fitness. However, if you want to lose fat, I do not specifically know of a regimine that does nothing but "burn fat". To the best of my knowledge, that is pretty much the same garbage as spot reduction (getting rid of fat in one area). Ride with a goal and oh yeah, have fun. Everything else, will follow.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*yup*



SilasCL said:


> I would say this is bad advice for someone with a limited training schedule. Make the most of your limited time by going at tempo and faster. By going faster you will burn more total calories than going slower, and since you're not going for too long you will be able to do this often without your body breaking down.
> 
> Silas


Limited time USUALLY means tempo and intervals if improvement is what you want......


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

ttug said:


> have fun


The fun part is actually the main thing that keeps me riding. Weight loss and fitness are a welcome side effect.

It still seems to me that there is something to this business of metabolizing fat and sugar at different intensities. However, it is not as simple as I thought. A lot seems to depend on what exactly you are trying to achieve, what your starting point is, your genes, and who you listen to.

A quick Google search revealed all sorts of stuff that might or might not be useful:
http://www.feelgood-factors.com/articles/article03.html
http://www.ssc.gov.sg/SportsWeb/faqdet.jsp?sp=9&root=33&parent=682&cat=684&artid=4155
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0690.htm
http://www.cbass.com/INTERVAL.HTM


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## BarryG (Jul 5, 2004)

Greg, I heartily encourage you to read the book "Heft on Wheels" about someone who weighed more than you and turned it around on the bike due to his high level of motivation. I'd drop the gym altogether and just r-i-d-e. Also, maybe once a week try your hardest to hang with one of those C rides..


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

BarryG said:


> Greg, I heartily encourage you to read the book "Heft on Wheels" about someone who weighed more than you and turned it around on the bike due to his high level of motivation. I'd drop the gym altogether and just r-i-d-e. Also, maybe once a week try your hardest to hang with one of those C rides..


Thanks for pointing me to "Heft on Wheels"!  

I read the first couple pages on amazon as well as some of the reviews and am impressed by his and my analogous death spirals. He seems quite a bit more willing than I am to endure showing up for group rides and then get dropped like a bad habit. I have really had it with that. Happened again last Saturday when I was advised that I would have NO trouble sticking with them and was cooked inside of 10 minutes. But then after dropping myself, I enjoyed a nice 20 mile ride alone. THAT was fun!

As for the gym, a lot of people tell me to drop the gym and almost none of them inquire as to what precisely I do there! It seems almost to be like religion with some cyclists: gym BAAAD, Bike Gooood. I am trying to vary things a little as well as to get exercise when weather does not permit. Also I believe I am leveraging my knowledge of what I can do in the gym to achieve fitness goals that will help me on the bike, ie, raise LT.

I'll get a copy of the book as soon as I can. Thanks again for the heads up.

His concept of atonement is right on the money for anyone who has permitted years of gluttony and sloth to nearly kill them. It _is_ sinful.

Gregg


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## jason_21218 (Jun 7, 2005)

*how is your bike set-up??? How is your ride posture??*

look at lowering bars, BIG change in speed would be going to carbon/light azz wheels. lighten up your whole drive-train.
I put carbon wheels, and carb cranks, along with a light chain on my humble "seqouia' and that thing is fast as hell now......


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

riiiiiiight


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## jason_21218 (Jun 7, 2005)

*You'll learn this stuff eventually*



covenant said:


> riiiiiiight


-its truuuuue. When you start to know a bit more about riding, you'll see the wheels are the first thing to upgrade. Don't worry 'covenent' you'll get there. Maybe.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

perttime said:


> The fun part is actually the main thing that keeps me riding. Weight loss and fitness are a welcome side effect.


One more thing:
For me one way I assure that I keep having fun (=keep riding) is that I try to make sure I get home feeling relatively OK. I do that by keeping my speed down a lot of the time and going fast only when the location feels like I would enjoy the speed there AND my body tells me that I can go fast.

That is not the way to get extreme results or (God forbid) get fit for a serious race. It is just the way I ensure I keep riding, and every time I get on a bike is a positive step in terms of fitness and weight.


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

I am surprised at some of the comments.

I think you are eating way too much for the speeds and distances you are riding. You are eating a lot more then people who are riding almost twice as fast as you are, and calories burned in cycling is not linear with speed.

Just try to have fun, your weight is the biggest thing slowing you down. You are most likely not bonking, and you need to take it easy on the intensity, ride lots, and eat a bit less. For a 1 hour ride during the week, just take water. Absolutely no need to have a powerbar, gel, crackers, cookies, etc.. at all. At the end of the ride have a glass of fruit juice (100 calories or so) instead of an endurance oriented recovery drink (300 calories or more). Don't eat food on these shorter rides. Don't pig out before a longer ride. Let yourself feel hungry sometimes.

You basically want to do "base" training. Build up your aerobic capacity while losing weight. The speed will come. Concentrate on doing as many 50+ mile rides as you can if your goal is to ride 50 miles faster. Try and do a 50 mile ride every weekend. If you're busy you can get up early on the weekend, if your wife and kids sleep in you can go do your 50 mile ride before they are even up and ready for the day. Lots of cyclists do that. The long rides are going to help you lose the most weight and will have the biggest benefits.

The gym is great but for now cycling will burn more calories in the same time so you may want to only do the gym once a week to reduce your chances of injury and stabilize your joints. Life weights on Monday or Tuesday so it won't effect your weekend riding.

Ben


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## OrangeMarlin (Jul 12, 2005)

Gregg. You mention a couple of symptoms that might indicate you either have developed Type II diabetes OR are at severe risk. Exercising is very good for staving off diabetes, because it keeps the blood sugar low (and thereby decreasing insulin resistance). If you ingest too many simple sugars, such as in kool-aid and gatorade, you are truly harming yourself both in long-term health, and in the ability to exercise effectively.

I'm not even going to pretend to diagnose you, nor suggest that you are actually pre- or currently diabetic. However, you should check your blood sugar (purchasing a glucose monitor is both easy and smart at your age/weight). If it stays above 120 after exercising, then I'd immediately make an appointment with your doc. There are a number of therapies, along with the exercise, that will improve your overall health, and, importantly, make your rides more pleasant. And no, insulin injections are rarely, if ever, a part of Type II diabetes management. Oral medications, weight loss, diet control, and exercise are part of the management.

But dump the high-sugar stuff. You don't need it, you don't need it, and you don't need it. The fit guys on here need caloric intake to keep from bonking. That's not your problem. Your body CAN convert stored fat into energy, and you need to train it to do so. And if you are diabetic, then you have all the glucose you need coursing through your arteries and veins. 

So, my suggestion is check your blood sugar four times a day: morning, after riding, before dinner, before going to bed. 

Sorry to rant. But Type II diabetes is both preventable and reversible. But it takes work and knowledge.


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

Yikes that is very scary... OrangeMarlin... would a person who had Type II diabetes feel like they needed to eat a lot of sugary stuff to keep exercising?


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## ggusta (Dec 31, 2004)

*EDITED*


OrangeMarlin said:


> Gregg. You mention a couple of symptoms that might indicate you either have developed Type II diabetes OR are at severe risk.
> 
> I'm not even going to pretend to diagnose you, nor suggest that you are actually pre- or currently diabetic. However, you should check your blood sugar (purchasing a glucose monitor is both easy and smart at your age/weight).
> 
> ...


Not taken as a rant at all. I would like to know more about how best to acclimate my body to convert fat to energy more efficiently.

I have been quietly concerned about the prospect that I have gluttonized myself into diabetes. Upon a recent visit to an ENT (I most likely will be undergoing a second sinus surgery as a result of a serious tricycle accident when I was 5 years old, not kidding.) I mentioned that I had hada series of sores or pimples inside my nose on a weekly basis in April and May. He said that the sores are a symptom of diabetes or near-diabetes and to have them looked at. 

It's disturbing to me. In another thread I have detailed my gradual dietary changes towards complex carbs, whole grains fruits and veggies. I do cheat. If I don't cheat a little I mostly likely will get disgusted by the deprivation and just trash the better eating in favor of horrible eating. (The Perfect is the Enemy of the Good.) But I have substantially reduced the amount of cheating. But ice cream and the occasional Heath Bar do get through....

Aprreciate the feeback and sincerity.

Gregg


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## OrangeMarlin (Jul 12, 2005)

benInMA said:


> Yikes that is very scary... OrangeMarlin... would a person who had Type II diabetes feel like they needed to eat a lot of sugary stuff to keep exercising?


Not necessarily. You could just have a sweet tooth. Or you could be very fit, and require calories to keep riding. In fact, one of the symptoms of type II diabetes is that you have excess blood glucose, because, even though your body produces insulin, the liver is not able to take it from the blood and store it. You rarely have a physiological desire for sweets, which is prevalent in Type I Diabetes, where the body produces little or no insulin.

However, if you drink a lot of water, sweat a lot, urinate a lot, and your eyesight seems to be off after a big meal, then you MIGHT (and I stress MIGHT, only Republicans are capable of diagnosing people over the internet or via videotape) be at risk for Type II diabetes. But like I said, it's reversible. Cycling is a great way to reverse it because usually the exercising is over a long period of time (who bikes for 20 minutes?), it keeps the heart rate up, and burns a lot of calories, thereby reducing the blood glucose levels.

Being a big buy on a bike is a step in the right direction.


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## OrangeMarlin (Jul 12, 2005)

ggusta said:


> *EDITED*
> 
> Not taken as a rant at all. I would like to know more about how best to acclimate my body to convert fat to energy more efficiently.
> 
> ...


Get checked ASAP. The greatest enemy of good is denial  Like I said, Type II diabetes CAN be reversible (depending on the amount of time that has elapsed), and exercising is great thing. And as for complex carbs, that's good, but you just can't believe where they hide simple carbs. But you could get on some very good medications, watch your carb input, and exercise, and if at least you can control it.

Let me explain the consequences of not controlling Type II Diabetes. Heart disease (and that will occur whether or not you ride 70 miles a day at a 170 HR). Blindness. Poor circulation to the extremities. Susceptibility to infections. That's why it's called the Silent Killer.

By the way, when you go to your physician to begin treatment, it takes focus, because to get it under control may take several months of trying different therapies, changing your diet, and lots of other stuff. Oh yes, you might also mention to your physician that you're engaging in heaving exercise. Some of the medications can cause lactic acidosis, a fatal condition, that is exacerbated by heaving aerobic exercise. This is NOT a big problem, just something that helps your physician design the appropriate course of treatment.

Disclaimer. I may not know what I'm talking about since I'm just some guy on the internet. Go to your doctor. He is there to help.

I'm a big proponent of cycling as part of the treatment for Type II diabetes. It's "easier" than running (remember, most Type II diabetics are overweight, and running is just harsh on the joints), it's easier to get motivated, and frankly, Lance Armstrong is quite inspiring these days.


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks for the info. BTW I was just asking, not at all worried about myself. I just had blood work in the last month, and anyway, I am a skinny freak with no sweet tooth at all, like a lot of cyclists.


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