# Real or counterfeit?



## bikerjulio

Not being an expert - I cannot tell

2012 PINARELLO DOGMA 2 60.1 CARBON ROAD BIKE FRAME AND FORK HEADSET | eBay


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## hambike

I'm no expert either. But...

1) Fork shape not correct (aero profile at the head tube junction on the real Dogma2)
2) No front derailleur hanger
3) No holes on down tube for internal cables
4) Rear derailleur hanger wrong
5) Seat tube collar wrong
6) BB most likely wrong 

And on and on.

Besides, why would someone be selling a brand new real Dogma 2 that lists for somewhere near $6,000 for a mere $2,000? That's the only question you really need to answer.

Run away. Fast.


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## bikerjulio

no interest personally.

just bringing it up for the Pinarello people around here in case anyone wants to report it to ebay.


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## Cinelli 82220

*Fake*

Real Dogma2 has internal derailleur cables and teardrop seatpost.
Lots of other details wrong but those two stand out.


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## Dave Hickey

I agree it's fake... I checked the guys history and he sells bike parts....Interesting that he's willing to jeopardize his feedback selling an obviously fake frame...


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## AnthonyL88

It's a FAKE!!


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## bikerjulio

It's been relisted as a replica. someone must have called it in as a fake 

2012 PINARELLO DOGMA 2 60.1 CARBON ROAD BIKE FRAME AND FORK HEADSET | eBay

same $2000 price tho

and after it sold


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## fernandok

It's a Fake....


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## Sebastionmerckx

Whoever did that frame didn't really come close...Obvious fake.


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## RichardL

Someone paid $1800 for a fake Dogma frame!!! One born every minute!!


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## bikerjulio

sad, i did what i could


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## vboy19

PINARELLO DOGMA 60.1 SHIMANO 105 5700 AND EASTON EC90 SLX WHEELS. | eBay

another fake one!!! sad because i'm trying to sell my frame and this guy makes it look like it's a real bike.


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## bikerjulio

I see he describes it as "OEM TAIWAM " which is misleading at best.

Why not report it as counterfeit?

I did my bit on the earlier one.


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## Sebastionmerckx

I just reported the above bike and made note of why it's fake in the report.


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## Nice&slow

Why would you buy a Pinarello on eBay? 

If it is too good to be true, then trust your gut feeling. It will never fail you.


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## bdkj

i think its fake!


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## vboy19

Nice&slow said:


> Why would you buy a Pinarello on eBay?
> 
> If it is too good to be true, then trust your gut feeling. It will never fail you.


haha, hey, easy there  I have been trying to sell my dogma frame for 2 months now, for a good price, but these fake ones get sold and no one can tell the difference. so frustrating. There are good bikes on ebay that are real and true (like mine).


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## neoprocyclist

Putting this link in from another thread - sorry for double posting, but it's very relevant to this thread.

Princes, thieves and make-believe | Pinarello fights for its name «


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## Bill Bikie

*Nooooooo*

The logo on the seat stay above the rear brake doesn't look right and doesn't match the one on the headtube. The overall graphics don't look right either. 

Do not touch it!


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## PaxRomana

I am amazed that this discussion is still going. This is clearly a fake. 

The fork on the Dogma 2 is completely different. This is a fake Dogma 2 paint job on a fake Dogma 1.

This not OEM Taiwan or anything else. The OEM stuff is garbage. This is likely made in Guangdong or Fujian, China.


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## neoprocyclist

PaxRomana said:


> I am amazed that this discussion is still going. This is clearly a fake.
> 
> The fork on the Dogma 2 is completely different. This is a fake Dogma 2 paint job on a fake Dogma 1.
> 
> This not OEM Taiwan or anything else. The OEM stuff is garbage. This is likely made in Guangdong or Fujian, China.


You do realise that 'OEM' stands for Original Equipment Manufacturing? That means you are saying that Pinarello frames (made by an OE manufacturer in Asia) are garbage.

I'm sure that's not what you meant, just pointing out the error


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## robdamanii

neoprocyclist said:


> Putting this link in from another thread - sorry for double posting, but it's very relevant to this thread.
> 
> Princes, thieves and make-believe | Pinarello fights for its name «


That is a fantastic article. Most importantly, it illustrates the idea that these frames are not "back door" inventory at all. 

Good for pinarello as well.


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## Cinelli 82220

neoprocyclist said:


> You do realise that 'OEM' stands for Original Equipment Manufacturing? That means you are saying that Pinarello frames (made by an OE manufacturer in Asia) are garbage.
> 
> I'm sure that's not what you meant, just pointing out the error


Obviously the fakes don't come from the same factory as the real ones. They don't even use the same molds and there are other obvious structural differences.

So OEM means nothing in the context of that ad.


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## Bill Bikie

It doesn't even come close as a replica. My cat can tell the difference at 15 feet.


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## PaxRomana

neoprocyclist said:


> You do realise that 'OEM' stands for Original Equipment Manufacturing? That means you are saying that Pinarello frames (made by an OE manufacturer in Asia) are garbage.
> 
> I'm sure that's not what you meant, just pointing out the error


Ah, no, what I meant is that the OEM claim in that ad is garbage. You are correct, I was totally unclear!


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## RBforever

Definitely a fake.


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## config

This one's a fake. Pinarello Dogma | eBay
I just hate it when they try to pass a fake one for a real one.


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## hamsey

Config,

How can you tell? Just ordered a Paris from my LBS but would like to be able to tell the difference.


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## Bill Bikie

hamsey said:


> Config,
> 
> How can you tell? Just ordered a Paris from my LBS but would like to be able to tell the difference.


It'll probably come from Gita the US distributor for Pinarello. The bike will have a serial number and a packet of info telling you how to register it. I doubt if the shop will knowingly sell you a counterfeit Pinarello.


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## hamsey

Bill,

Sorry, I meant the ebay link.


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## config

hamsey said:


> Config,
> 
> How can you tell? Just ordered a Paris from my LBS but would like to be able to tell the difference.


Subtle differences. Full internal routing came with the Dogma 2. The entry point for the internal routing on the down tube is closer to the headtube on the real one. The exit point of the internal routing towards the rear derailleur is above the chain-stay and not below (this one isn't even internal). The Dogma 2 also has the notch on the fork/headtube.


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## aclinjury

i wonder how the fake one would perform against the real one. Now if the fake one is 90% within of the real's performance, then I'm sorry to say this but lots of fools overpaid for the real ones.


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## Bill Bikie

aclinjury said:


> i wonder how the fake one would perform against the real one. Now if the fake one is 90% within of the real's performance, then I'm sorry to say this but lots of fools overpaid for the real ones.


Ten percent is quite a difference in performance, and a competent rider will notice the difference. I'd cut-up a known fake into small peices and trash it. I'd never ride it because I'd expect it to fail at any minute.


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## aclinjury

Bill Bikie said:


> Ten percent is quite a difference in performance, and a competent rider will notice the difference. I'd cut-up a known fake into small peices and trash it. I'd never ride it because I'd expect it to fail at any minute.


Hmm while neither you nor me have any valid data comparison between fake vs. real, I guess we're just debating.

But there are a lot (A LOT) of chinese carbon frames (see chinese Ebay carbon frame thread) being raced in crits, and these crit guys do abuse their bikes, they don't baby their bikes. If these frames fail at any minute, then we'd expect to see much more discussion of the failures in the "chinese Ebay carbon frames" thread. While there are failures, but are reported faliures mainly due to 

1) lower quality craftsmanship?
2) statistical? (higher amount of frames used will lead to higher reported failures)
3) abusive environment? (crit riders throwing a chinese frame into a crit isn't looking to baby it like Pina riders taking his baby out for a weekend ride with the guys)

I'd be very curious to see an objective comparison between the fake and real frames. If the fake frames do turn out to be complete trash, then it could be to Pinarello's advantage to advertise it, no? But personally, I have to think that Pina probably has done such comparison in their headquarter and the results were not as drastic as they had hope, and if the results were in fact within 1-2%, it could work against Pinarello.

Now I don't support chinese fake stuff when they use a trademark logo, but I have to admit that the fake stuff do make me wonder about the value/performance ratio of the high-end bikes. Unlike a high-end exotic car, high-end carbon bicycles can be made in a relatively low tech facility, and to me, that does make me question about the value high-end bikes made in low tech "Far East" facility.


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## Bill Bikie

aclinjury said:


> Hmm while neither you nor me have any valid data comparison between fake vs. real, I guess we're just debating.
> 
> But there are a lot (A LOT) of chinese carbon frames (see chinese Ebay carbon frame thread) being raced in crits, and these crit guys do abuse their bikes, they don't baby their bikes. If these frames fail at any minute, then we'd expect to see much more discussion of the failures in the "chinese Ebay carbon frames" thread. While there are failures, but are reported faliures mainly due to
> 
> 1) lower quality craftsmanship?
> 2) statistical? (higher amount of frames used will lead to higher reported failures)
> 3) abusive environment? (crit riders throwing a chinese frame into a crit isn't looking to baby it like Pina riders taking his baby out for a weekend ride with the guys)
> 
> I'd be very curious to see an objective comparison between the fake and real frames. If the fake frames do turn out to be complete trash, then it could be to Pinarello's advantage to advertise it, no? But personally, I have to think that Pina probably has done such comparison in their headquarter and the results were not as drastic as they had hope, and if the results were in fact within 1-2%, it could work against Pinarello.
> 
> Now I don't support chinese fake stuff when they use a trademark logo, but I have to admit that the fake stuff do make me wonder about the value/performance ratio of the high-end bikes. Unlike a high-end exotic car, high-end carbon bicycles can be made in a relatively low tech facility, and to me, that does make me question about the value high-end bikes made in low tech "Far East" facility.


I'll opt for the real thing with a legit serial no. and warranty. My Pinarello was made in Tiawan and shiped back to Italy for finishing (not mainland China).

If the fakes are so good you'd think they would generate a following prompting the faker to come out with their own label.

A helpful hint: only order from a bike bike shop licensed to sell your brand.


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## vladvm

if it has pinarello label, it is fake. if it is unpainted it is legit.


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## Bill Bikie

vladvm said:


> if it has pinarello label, it is fake. if it is unpainted it is legit.


Please explain your post.

Do you mean if it has a sticky back label it is fake, but if it has the stylized "P" silver badge on the head tube it is ligit? If what is unpainted?


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## Bill Bikie

vladvm said:


> if it has pinarello label, it is fake. if it is unpainted it is legit.


Please explain your post.

Do you mean if it has a sticky back label it is fake, but if it has the stylized "P" silver badge on the head tube it is ligit? And what are talking about being unpainted? Or maybe you mean a label that hasn't been clear coated indicates a forgery?


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## Cinelli 82220

^^ If it is a non-Pinarello frame with Pina stickers, it's a fake. 

If it's a plain unmarked frame that isn't pretending to be anything else, then it's legit.

The key is, don't pretend to be something you aren't.


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## Hiro11

aclinjury said:


> Hmm while neither you nor me have any valid data comparison between fake vs. real, I guess we're just debating.
> 
> But there are a lot (A LOT) of chinese carbon frames (see chinese Ebay carbon frame thread) being raced in crits, and these crit guys do abuse their bikes, they don't baby their bikes. If these frames fail at any minute, then we'd expect to see much more discussion of the failures in the "chinese Ebay carbon frames" thread. While there are failures, but are reported faliures mainly due to
> 
> 1) lower quality craftsmanship?
> 2) statistical? (higher amount of frames used will lead to higher reported failures)
> 3) abusive environment? (crit riders throwing a chinese frame into a crit isn't looking to baby it like Pina riders taking his baby out for a weekend ride with the guys)
> 
> I'd be very curious to see an objective comparison between the fake and real frames. If the fake frames do turn out to be complete trash, then it could be to Pinarello's advantage to advertise it, no? But personally, I have to think that Pina probably has done such comparison in their headquarter and the results were not as drastic as they had hope, and if the results were in fact within 1-2%, it could work against Pinarello.
> 
> Now I don't support chinese fake stuff when they use a trademark logo, but I have to admit that the fake stuff do make me wonder about the value/performance ratio of the high-end bikes. Unlike a high-end exotic car, high-end carbon bicycles can be made in a relatively low tech facility, and to me, that does make me question about the value high-end bikes made in low tech "Far East" facility.


This is my attitude. I bought a Chinese copy of a Scott Foil and love it. However, I'd never get one with fake Scott decals. Mine's matte black.

Having said that, this frame has convinced me that Chinese carbon is good stuff from a pure performance perspective. It's a straight-up race bike. It was easy to build up and seems durable. I had a Wisconsin-made Madone before this and the Chinese frame is easily as well made, if not better. Only, this one costs less than $600 delivered. At these prices, I can easily afford to ride the s&!t out of my bike and not worry if I crash.

When Pinarello (and other manufacturers) see fit to charge thousands of dollars for off-the-peg Taiwanese frames, you can see why people start looking elsewhere. The days of mega-buck non-custom carbon are rapidly approaching an end, IMO.


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## robdamanii

Hiro11 said:


> This is my attitude. I bought a Chinese copy of a Scott Foil and love it. However, I'd never get one with fake Scott decals. Mine's matte black.
> 
> Having said that, this frame has convinced me that Chinese carbon is good stuff from a pure performance perspective. It's a straight-up race bike. It was easy to build up and seems durable. I had a Wisconsin-made Madone before this and the Chinese frame is easily as well made, if not better. Only, this one costs less than $600 delivered.
> 
> When Pinarello (and other manufacturers) see fit to charge thousands of dollars for off-the-peg Taiwanese frames, you can see why people start looking elsewhere. *The days of mega-buck carbon are rapidly approaching an end, IMO.* People are staring to catch on. Go to a local crit race these days here in Chicago and it's a festival of Chinese carbon.


Wrong. There will always be a large group of people who value a legitimate company's product over a "factory direct" no name piece of plastic. The market will not dry up anytime soon, as evidenced by the numbers of high dollar bikes that continue to be brought to market.

Chinese carbon bikes make good crit bikes because they're disposable. Unless you're a crit racer, most people don't view their bikes a disposable.


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## Hiro11

robdamanii said:


> Wrong. There will always be a large group of people who value a legitimate company's product over a "factory direct" no name piece of plastic. The market will not dry up anytime soon, as evidenced by the numbers of high dollar bikes that continue to be brought to market.
> 
> Chinese carbon bikes make good crit bikes because they're disposable. Unless you're a crit racer, most people don't view their bikes a disposable.


That's pretty reductive and condescending, IMO. Chinese bikes are no more "disposable" than any other bike. I don't even know what that means.

In the end, if you're willing to spend $6K on a "legitimate" Taiwanese "piece of plastic", more power to you. I'm not. I think it's probably fair to say that most people aren't.


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## robdamanii

Hiro11 said:


> That's pretty reductive and condescending, IMO. Chinese bikes are no more "disposable" than any other bike. I don't even know what that means.
> 
> In the end, if you're willing to spend $6K on a "legitimate" Taiwanese "piece of plastic", more power to you. I'm not. I think it's probably fair to say that most people aren't.


Crit racers crash more often than the average racer. That's why many of them choose cheaper framesets and components that are more affordable to replace. Don't race what you can't replace and all that.

And FTR, I'm not willing to spend 6K on a Taiwanese frame. I prefer my frames to not be made by contracted out child labor, be it a $600 hunk of plastic or a $6k one.

As for the comment that most people aren't willing to buy a $6k frame, look at your local group rides and tell me that the high end frame market isn't alive and well. Or are you too cool to ride with those expensive bikes?


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## AnthonyL88

Here's my Pinarello Dogma 2 Di2 Bob frame. It's the real thing!!


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## Bill Bikie

AnthonyL88 said:


> Here's my Pinarello Dogma 2 Di2 Bob frame. It's the real thing!!


I can't see openings for internal cable routings, nor the Pinarello sticker on the front of the head tube. And why the secrecy? This doesn't pass the smell test.


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## AnthonyL88

You got to wait until my Dogma 2 is completely built, only thing I'm waiting for the Campy EPS Super Record Group to be available. Then I can take better pictures. Here's a picture of the seatpost.


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## Cinelli 82220

BoB looks good Anthony :thumbsup:

I want a Cav replica. It was on their site but the pic won't come up....


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## AnthonyL88

Cinelli 82220 said:


> BoB looks good Anthony :thumbsup:
> 
> I want a Cav replica. It was on their site but the pic won't come up....


This one?


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## Backflush

That is the problem with the new Pinarello clone RFM201 from Great Keen. I cannot tell the difference so I will always assume any frame being sold as a Pinarello on Ebay is a fake. 

I would like one because they are inexpensive, but would put my last name on the frame.


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## PaxRomana

Backflush said:


> That is the problem with the new Pinarello clone RFM201 from Great Keen. I cannot tell the difference so I will always assume any frame being sold as a Pinarello on Ebay is a fake.
> 
> I would like one because they are inexpensive, but would put my last name on the frame.


One more time for the cheap seats. If it says "Dogma 2" and the fork is the same as the Dogma 1, then IT IS A FAKE.


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## AnthonyL88

PaxRomana said:


> One more time for the cheap seats. If it says "Dogma 2" and the fork is the same as the Dogma 1, then IT IS A FAKE.


Also, just looking at the paint job on the fake Dogma frames, you can tell it's not the Real thing!!

I also looking at the chainstay on the fake Dogma frames, it's not the same.


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## Bill Bikie

*Who's buying these fakes?*

Who's buying these fakes? Are they guys that want bragging right, and have a Dogma frame hanging on their wall? I wonder if theyre actually cyclists. 

A Dogma frame is a useless piece of resin and carbon, unless you're a rider, and can actually appreciate it's nuances.

Most serious cyclists and competitors are pretty astute and fairly well educated. And I would like to think they wouldn't bite on a too good to be true deal. Other guys and gals in the pack are sure to know a fake Dogma.

I'll never buy a bike on-line, and instead will support my local pro shop and keep the money in the community.


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## WTFcyclist

Backflush said:


> That is the problem with the new Pinarello clone RFM201 from Great Keen. I cannot tell the difference so I will always assume any frame being sold as a Pinarello on Ebay is a fake.
> 
> I would like one because they are inexpensive, but would put my last name on the frame.


I hate the counterfeits!!! But ironically, whether it's real, counterfeit, or Pinarello look-alike (with Chinarello decal); they look ugly with that stupid gimmick wavy forks and seat stays.

But for sure, the real one has a fake "Made in Italy." (Yeah, I know it's not against the law to put this sticker) LOL 
This dude says ".....'made in Italy'... This is one of the very few high end road bike that you will see, that is still made in anyone European country...."
The 2011 Pinarello Dogma - Made in Italy - Sold at PV Cycling Center - YouTube





CICLI PINARELLO S.p.A.


> Our frames are made in Far East, where the mass production of raw frames is based. The following production phases, such as painting and assembling, are completed in Villorba, Italy, in our factory. The material used in most of our products comes basically from Japan, the best supplier of carbon fibers worldwide. *Our partner Toray (renowned for its collaboration with important aerospace and automobile companies) provides exclusively to Cicli Pinarello the best carbon in the market, used on Dogma, Kobh, Graal and so on.*


LOL to the words that I underline. The real one come with the best magical carbon in the market from Toray (provided exclusively to Pinarello)! Sounds like Pinarello is a very important company (the center of the bicycle world).

It reminds me of the Vatican (once a center of the universe).


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## jogger1

very fake!! check the chain stay, it has to be straight and not curve.


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## MojoHamuki

Its best said in the movie Armageddon by the Russian cosminot as the international space station breaks apart;

"Russian components, American components, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!! "


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