# Which is the best welding & highest quality titanium frame?



## european.dr

Which is the best welding & highest quality titanium frame?
...something smooth welding,perfect welding,high quality finishing titanium frame...
Which one?Any suggestion?


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## veloduffer

All titanium frames are welded the same and generally look the same when built. Some companies, like Moots, shot peen the finish and welds to smooth them. But you will get a high quality frame from any of the well known ti companies (Moots, Serotta, Lynskey, Seven). They have stock sizes and upcharge for custom. For about the same as the others stock price, you can go to a custom ti builder like Kish Bikes, Ericksen, etc. and get whatever you want. 

I posted my Kish cross bike here: 
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=202922

I've owned (Litespeed, Merlin) and own several ti bikes (Kish, Serotta, Seven) and quite happy with all of them. The Litespeed and Merlin were stock, while the others are custom.


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## european.dr

veloduffer said:


> All titanium frames are welded the same and generally look the same when built. Some companies, like Moots, shot peen the finish and welds to smooth them. But you will get a high quality frame from any of the well known ti companies (Moots, Serotta, Lynskey, Seven). They have stock sizes and upcharge for custom. For about the same as the others stock price, you can go to a custom ti builder like Kish Bikes, Ericksen, etc. and get whatever you want.
> 
> I posted my Kish cross bike here:
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=202922
> 
> I've owned (Litespeed, Merlin) and own several ti bikes (Kish, Serotta, Seven) and quite happy with all of them. The Litespeed and Merlin were stock, while the others are custom.


Wow,your Kish bike is very nice.
Moots, Serotta, Seven are nice but not Lynskey.


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## tihsepa

european.dr said:


> Wow,your Kish bike is very nice.
> Moots, Serotta, Seven are nice but not Lynskey.


What?


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## skepticman

veloduffer said:


> All titanium frames are welded the same and generally look the same when built.


Some frames (Moots, Eriksen, Merlin, probably others) have 2-pass welds to improve the strength and/or appearance. Carl Strong deliberately mis-aligns the frame before welding so that the heat slowly moves the frame back into alignment so little or no cold setting is required. Some builders weld small parts like the brake bridge and some are brazed on with a torch.

Using argon gas and a TIG welder are about the only way in which all Ti frames are welded the same.


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## veloduffer

european.dr said:


> Wow,your Kish bike is very nice.
> Moots, Serotta, Seven are nice but not Lynskey.


I would highly recommend Jim Kish. He was very easy to work with and prompt with his communication (both phone and email). His prices are reasonable and he is well regarded (www.kishbike.com). Initially I was going to get a Moots Psychlo-X but the upcharge for customizing was more than ordering with Jim. I solicited a few references from here and the Serotta forum, and got very positive feedback. He is also one of the frame building instructors at the United Bicycle Institute, so he knows how to weld.


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## PJ352

european.dr said:


> Wow,your Kish bike is very nice.
> Moots, Serotta, Seven are nice but *not Lynskey*.


So... what's not to like about Lynskey's??


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## european.dr

PJ352 said:


> So... what's not to like about Lynskey's??


Lynskey welding not very nice,same like oriental made frame.....


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## cyclust

Asking who makes the best ti frame is like asking who makes the best sports car. I'd say if you took a frame from all the top builders, like Sevenm Serotta, Moots, Lynskey, etc, and put them all side by side, there would be one or twon aspects of each frame that you liked best from each. One might have smoother welds, one might have nicer dropouts, one might have better details on things like brake bridges, shift bosses, etc. Like anything else in life, you pays your money and you makes your choice.


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## tarwheel2

Ask 10 cyclists who makes the best ti frame and you are likely to get 10 different answers. I would pay closer attention to which frame has a geometry that fits you best within your budget.

My ti bike is an Eddy Merckx that was made by Litespeed to Merckx specs. I love it because the geometry is identical to my steel Merckx Corsa, and both frames fit me perfect.


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## Ben01t

*Guru*

Try GURU

http://www.gurubikes.com/enUS/main.php

Beautiful ti bikes, custom and available painted or not.


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## Topher

My Merlin is awfully pretty.


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## armybikerider

Lynskeys look like "oriental made frame?" 

Sorry man, I would be one of many that would argue.

David


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## Mootsie

The answer is Moot...s.


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## european.dr

Mootsie said:


> The answer is Moot...s.


Yes,I should go for Moots...nicer!


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## laffeaux

Steve Potts and Carl Strong have to be pretty high up on the list.


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## OnTheRivet

european.dr said:


> Which is the best welding & highest quality titanium frame?
> ...something smooth welding,perfect welding,high quality finishing titanium frame...
> Which one?Any suggestion?


The best Ti welds in the indutstry used to be Moots, but when Kent Eriksen left and started Eriksen he brought his welder Chris Moore with him. Lynskey...please, not even in the top 5.


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## Ride-Fly

Get a Dean. Wait, I mean order a Dean... maybe you will get it in this decade. :|


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## kmac76

Seven


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## terbennett

cyclust said:


> Asking who makes the best ti frame is like asking who makes the best sports car. I'd say if you took a frame from all the top builders, like Sevenm Serotta, Moots, Lynskey, etc, and put them all side by side, there would be one or twon aspects of each frame that you liked best from each. One might have smoother welds, one might have nicer dropouts, one might have better details on things like brake bridges, shift bosses, etc. Like anything else in life, you pays your money and you makes your choice.


+1. Reading all of these answers will confirm that.


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## akatsuki

Eriksen welds are the best that I've seen - but I'd go with Spectrum before anyone because of Tom Kellogg.


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## medimond

Why do you care what the bike/welds looks like? 

I would rather care more about the fit and ride!


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## PJ352

medimond said:


> Why do you care what the bike/welds looks like?
> 
> I would rather care more about the fit and ride!


Consumers willingness to accept compromises diminishes in direct proportion with rising price. I can relate.


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## HAL9000

*Dean*

Have one, love it.


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## armybikerider

Luckily there is something for everyone. Over 1,000 miles since November on my Lynskey R330 despite all the cold and snow this winter, and I still end every ride with a smile on my face. Isnt that what's important?


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## BryanSayer

Zinn also does nice TI.


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## SantaCruz

Davidson and DeSalvo should be considered if you want custom.


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## merlinluvr

european.dr said:


> Lynskey welding not very nice,same like oriental made frame.....


Errrrr what? I'm partial to my Merlin, but I think it's tough to find a reputable ti frame that isn't welded nicely. Ti is extremely expensive to work with and the companies who lay down the $ to get in the game don't let newbie hacks 'learn the ropes' on these tube sets. Most of them are old salts and quite good at what they do. I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Lynskey around '91 and it was neat to see the process up close. 

Can you please post a picture of a Lynskey Chinese weld? I'm dying to see this b/c it would be a first where I heard someone complain about his welds.


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## Coolhand

The Indy Fab stuff should also be at the top of the list as well. Moots, Seven have well deserved reps too.


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## dekindy

http://www.roarkcycles.com/

Don't forget Roark.


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## haydos

my fav is BAUM. Check www.baumcycles.com


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## shinsplints

I'm afraid to admit that I really like my all-Ti Lemond Tete de Course (picked up for a steal!)... geometry by Lemond but welding by Treck???


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## moschika

Steve Potts would be on my short list for sure. Just saw one of his bikes at one of the LBS and they were about as perfect of a weld as I have ever seen.


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## Dumbod

akatsuki said:


> Eriksen welds are the best that I've seen - but I'd go with Spectrum before anyone because of Tom Kellogg.


Nobody is more of a TK fan than I am but his Ti bikes are manufactured in Tennessee by Merlin.


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## acckids

european.dr said:


> Which is the best welding & highest quality titanium frame?
> ...something smooth welding,perfect welding,high quality finishing titanium frame...
> Which one?Any suggestion?



I find your question interesting. On one hand, you ask a question to get opinions on the best welding/highest quality titanim and then you turn around and are an expert on the "oriental made frame" quality of Lynskey. 

I have seen Moots, Lynskey, IF, Serotta, Form, Eriksen, Litespeed, Merlin and Strong up close and personal. All are high quality frames with attention to detail. One thing I like about Lynskey and Litespeed is that they make quality titanium more affordable for schmucks like me.


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## AlanS

I have had 4 Deans...Really nice construction....very clean welds and symetrical. Unfortunatly, you have to be very patient in getting one delivered.


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## il sogno

OnTheRivet said:


> The best Ti welds in the indutstry used to be Moots, but when Kent Eriksen left and started Eriksen he brought his welder Chris Moore with him. Lynskey...please, not even in the top 5.


I agree. Eriksen's welds are beautiful.


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## FTR

OnTheRivet said:


> The best Ti welds in the indutstry used to be Moots, but when Kent Eriksen left and started Eriksen he brought his welder Chris Moore with him. Lynskey...please, not even in the top 5.


My eye does not see too much difference between those welds and the ones on my 2 years old Moots:


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## Juanmoretime

As previously mentioned; A bike is more than welds. The overall construction and tube shaping plays a very important part. It the area of titanium I have owned Litepseeds, Deans, Titus and now 4 Lynskey's. No one is more advance than Lynskey when it comes to getting the most out a titanium tube. Most everyone mentioned here are just welding round tubes and using tube sizing to tune the ride. Lynskey's tube shaping and tube sizing creates one of the best riding titanium frames out there. Although even more important is fit because if it doesn't fit you correctly it isn't worth a dime no matter how pretty the welds are.


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## misterdangerpants

My *Independent Fabrication* Titanium Crown Jewel most definitely could be filed under high quality, though I never saw the welds considering it was underneath paint. The IF Ti CJ also had a *Black Sheep* fork, of which was unpainted, and it also certainly qualifies as high quality. And I know it's not titanium, but I'm digging the welds on my stainless steel bike quite a bit these days!


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## bon_gabs

wow,,moots..



FTR said:


> My eye does not see too much difference between those welds and the ones on my 2 years old Moots:


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## Matt1986

haydos said:


> my fav is BAUM. Check Baum Cycles | Hand crafted bicycles


What that man said! If money were no issue I'd be on a plane to Melbourne to get a custom Baum sized up as we speak.


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## bon_gabs

I thought americano is the one and only,,danngg,,thats a superb quality by australiano.




Matt1986 said:


> What that man said! If money were no issue I'd be on a plane to Melbourne to get a custom Baum sized up as we speak.


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## raymonda

shinsplints said:


> I'm afraid to admit that I really like my all-Ti Lemond Tete de Course (picked up for a steal!)... geometry by Lemond but welding by Treck???


I don't think Trek ever had anyone in house who could weld Ti. Most likely their welded Ti was done by Litespeed..............who also did most of the Italian Ti bikes back in the day.

Looks are important to me, too, but the integrity of the welds are primary....Double pass welds are good QA practices.

In general I agree with the statement that all the major players make great Ti bikes and you can't go wrong with any of them. I have a 2001 Litespeed Tuscany, which looks and rides fantastic and as well as any Ti bike.

I like the look of Breezer type drop out but they are really not functional. I've had them on steel frames and they get in the way of the QR and prevent me from placing the lever in my preferred location. "They are sexy but don't perform well in bed."

So........I would suggest that you look for a Ti frame which best matches your riding position, needs and style and then afterwars look at which one is the most sexy to you. This way you will get a great fit and eye candy, too.


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## 251

OnTheRivet said:


>


Hey, that's my Eriksen hardtail. What's that doing on a road forum?

I've seen and ridden quite a few Ti frames. The (older) Litespeeds and Lynskeys are nice, so long as the tubes are round. Although, I seriously doubt the twisted tubes affect weld/tube quality, just aesthetics and good taste. :wink5: I've never seen a Moots that didn't look great. I have a few friends with Baums, one of which is Ti, and it looks great. My only knock against Baum is that they like to paint their Ti, and I have no idea why anyone would do such a thing. 

All that said, I've never seen a Ti frame that turn me away from an Eriksen.


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## Bob Ross

Dumbod said:


> Nobody is more of a TK fan than I am but his Ti bikes are manufactured in Tennessee by Merlin.


Just for the record, as of sometime in late 2011, that is no longer the case. Seven Cycles in Massachussetts now does all the welding for Spectrum's Ti frames, based (naturally) on Tom's very specific design plans.


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## Tequila Joe

Litespeed 6A / 4V Ti welds. 
The rest of the bike is too dirty to photograph.


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## dcgriz

I don't see what the infatuation is with the welds on a Ti or a custom Ti bike. All of the better known builders make aesthetically good looking welds, so it's a fair bet that a bike made by any of these shops will have nice looking welds.
I think more important things to evaluate would be the grade of Ti, construction techniques, alignment, and what I consider the most important for a custom job, the fitting process and the dialing in of the bike's purpose.


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## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> I don't see what the infatuation is with the welds on a Ti or a custom Ti bike. All of the better known builders make aesthetically good looking welds, so it's a fair bet that a bike made by any of these shops will have nice looking welds.
> I think more important things to evaluate would be the grade of Ti, construction techniques, alignment, and what I consider the most important for a custom job, the fitting process and the dialing in of the bike's purpose.


I'll bite: What sort of variation in grades, construction or alignment have you ever heard for Ti?

The tubing can vary widely, and there are variations in welding neatness and technique. But I have no idea what sort of difference there is among builders for the rest - there's really not many ways to build a Ti bike because of the inert gas jig used to build them. Or are you talking about the type of dropouts?

There are lots of weld methods, though. Pre-filler fusion, post-filler fusion puddling, and whatever combinations there of.


I've ridden on and worked on an awful lot of Ti bikes, and there doesn't seem to be a wrong way of doing it, unless the welds are bad and the frame brakes. Otherwise, anything goes.


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## Oasisbill

Baum for me: Baum Cycles | Titanium Romano Bicycle


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## darwinosx

OnTheRivet said:


> The best Ti welds in the indutstry used to be Moots, but when Kent Eriksen left and started Eriksen he brought his welder Chris Moore with him. Lynskey...please, not even in the top 5.


I kinda doubt Chris was the only welder at Moots. My VaMoots is old school but I dont see any difference between it's amazing welds and newer Moots.

So my vote is Moots.


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## darwinosx

shinsplints said:


> I'm afraid to admit that I really like my all-Ti Lemond Tete de Course (picked up for a steal!)... geometry by Lemond but welding by Treck???


Those bikes were made by Litespeed.


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## dcgriz

Kontact said:


> I'll bite: What sort of variation in grades, construction or alignment have you ever heard for Ti?
> 
> The tubing can vary widely, and there are variations in welding neatness and technique. But I have no idea what sort of difference there is among builders for the rest - there's really not many ways to build a Ti bike because of the inert gas jig used to build them. Or are you talking about the type of dropouts?
> 
> There are lots of weld methods, though. Pre-filler fusion, post-filler fusion puddling, and whatever combinations there of.
> 
> 
> I've ridden on and worked on an awful lot of Ti bikes, and there doesn't seem to be a wrong way of doing it, unless the welds are bad and the frame brakes. Otherwise, anything goes.


Different shops use different grades of Ti tubing. In addition, some use straight gauge, some use double butted and some use both. Some shops weld first and check alignment on a jig and cold press it to form, some other shops do a double pass, the first pass off so the heat of the 2nd pass brings the part to align. The truth being told, a lot of these things are border line marketing hype; a good frame is a good frame, period, and how this quality level was achieved is not really my concern as long as the expected quality level is achieved.
I believe fit and dialing in the intended purpose of the bike are the two areas that the custom bike consumer should be primarily focused on. As somebody else mentioned before, you are not going to ride the welds, if the bike does not fit or is too agile or too sleepy or too harsh who cares how the welds are. Just my humble opinion and I own a Seven which I did not choose over the rest because of the welds.


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## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> Different shops use different grades of Ti tubing. In addition, some use straight gauge, some use double butted and some use both. Some shops weld first and check alignment on a jig and cold press it to form, some other shops do a double pass, the first pass off so the heat of the 2nd pass brings the part to align. The truth being told, a lot of these things are border line marketing hype; a good frame is a good frame, period, and how this quality level was achieved is not really my concern as long as the expected quality level is achieved.
> I believe fit and dialing in the intended purpose of the bike are the two areas that the custom bike consumer should be primarily focused on. As somebody else mentioned before, you are not going to ride the welds, if the bike does not fit or is too agile or too sleepy or too harsh who cares how the welds are. Just my humble opinion and I own a Seven which I did not choose over the rest because of the welds.


As we are unable to know exactly where Seven or whoever gets their Ti, which alignment method works best, etc, what is the point of bringing it up? Not only is it marketing, but marketing that the general public is unable to judge the validity of or verify directly. Emphasizing the importance of things the buyer can't know or understand doesn't help evaluating anything.

There's really only three things to purchasing a frame:
1. Performance - ride, feel, fit, handling
2. Reputation/warranty
3. Aesthetics - shape, finish, joinery

On a bike as austere as bare ti, weld aesthetics are worth as much as paint and lug style on a steel bike or tube shape on carbon. This seems like a perfectly good topic of discussion.


As far as fit goes, if you can fit a stock bike, you can probably fit several other stock bikes - there is very little real variation anymore. Custom is custom, and is only as good as the people who fit and evaluate the rider.


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## dcgriz

Kontact said:


> As we are unable to know exactly where Seven or whoever gets their Ti, which alignment method works best, etc, what is the point of bringing it up? Not only is it marketing, but marketing that the general public is unable to judge the validity of or verify directly. Emphasizing the importance of things the buyer can't know or understand doesn't help evaluating anything.
> 
> There's really only three things to purchasing a frame:
> 1. Performance - ride, feel, fit, handling
> 2. Reputation/warranty
> 3. Aesthetics - shape, finish, joinery
> 
> On a bike as austere as bare ti, weld aesthetics are worth as much as paint and lug style on a steel bike or tube shape on carbon. This seems like a perfectly good topic of discussion.
> 
> 
> As far as fit goes, if you can fit a stock bike, you can probably fit several other stock bikes - there is very little real variation anymore. Custom is custom, and is only as good as the people who fit and evaluate the rider.


Well, I believe the more you know the better off you are. Means and methods of constructing these frames are rarely exposed to the public for full view for obvious reasons however a basic understanding helps the consumer to short out the fluff. As an example, consider the merits between butted and straight gauge tubing; a general knowledge about the benefits vs. cost helped me to reduce the field of prospects by steering away from outfits they were stretching the truth, all other things assumingly being equal. 
Another source of information would be the independent paint shops, if one has the connections to get the true story.
However, for most of us, the three things you listed are the primary considerations and I explicitly agree as I have allready indicated on my previous post.
Now, on the subject of welds, on a nude Ti frame, joinery is aesthetically pleasing, no question about that. However, when considering the works of the more renowned players on the Ti fab market, I have not noticed one that does not produce clean/streamlined welds.


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## Mute

On MTBs, at least I prefer the use of Sandvik 6Al-4V tiitanium.


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## Lookbiker

Remember, pretty welds are very important when your bike is at Starbucks.

My Lynskey's welds look fine and seem to hold my frame together.


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## NealH

The nicest welds I've seen on a bike were on a Moots. A benchmark in quality.


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## TWB8s

raymonda said:


> I don't think Trek ever had anyone in house who could weld Ti. Most likely their welded Ti was done by Litespeed..........


Trek had a bank of about 10 welding stations set up for Ti in Waterloo. They took it all down about 2 years ago and allowed the employees to buy the equipment. One of the employees is a friend who brought one home and then called me to provide the proper electrical connection in his basement. 

As for the original question...

The short list of companies that turn out lovely welds: Eriksen, Strong, Moots, Seven, Kellogg though there's more


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## medimond

As a point of reference, here's my 2011 Seven Axiom SL head tube weld. Lauren Trout at Seven welded my frame.


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## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> Well, I believe the more you know the better off you are. Means and methods of constructing these frames are rarely exposed to the public for full view for obvious reasons however a basic understanding helps the consumer to short out the fluff. As an example, consider the merits between butted and straight gauge tubing; a general knowledge about the benefits vs. cost helped me to reduce the field of prospects by steering away from outfits they were stretching the truth, all other things assumingly being equal.


I'd like to hear more about this butted tube "truth". I have never witnessed any claims about butted tubing that were out of line. I have read some rants against butting that seemed like propagand by companies that don't offer it. What have you run into?

BTW, Spectrum and Seven make some rather specific claims about tube manipulation and butting methods, but these claims are more about feel, not performance.



mute said:


> On MTBs, at least I prefer the use of Sandvik 6Al-4V tiitanium.


Why? The only place 6/4 becomes attractive is when you wall thicknesses are extremely thin. And why Sandvik?


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## audibmi

firefly (previously indy fab)


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## dcgriz

Kontact said:


> I'd like to hear more about this butted tube "truth". I have never witnessed any claims about butted tubing that were out of line. I have read some rants against butting that seemed like propagand by companies that don't offer it.


What do you consider the benefit of the butted tubing over straight gauge to be?


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## darwinosx

6/4 is also used for dropouts.


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## Oxtox

my welds on my 1998 Serotta-made Ti Paramount's are slightly less refined than those found on something like a new Moots.

but, all the tubing is still in place, the ride is very nice, and I get a TON of compliments on the bike.

not one person has ever commented on the appearance of the welds.


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## wiRIDEfast

anyone familiar with rikulau? i had a friend who had one of their bikes and loved it, but i never got to see it up close. Also, dont really know what their pricing is like.


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## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> What do you consider the benefit of the butted tubing over straight gauge to be?


95% weight. 5% ride.

On steel tubing it is more like 60/40. Titanium's different density and ductility makes it less sensitive to mid-span wall thinness for ride character than steel, it seems. But the "externally butted" Ti tubes that Merlin and later Seven use probably ride a bit different than a swaged internally butted tubeset from Reynolds.


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## dcgriz

Kontact said:


> 95% weight. 5% ride.
> 
> On steel tubing it is more like 60/40. Titanium's different density and ductility makes it less sensitive to mid-span wall thinness for ride character than steel, it seems. But the "externally butted" Ti tubes that Merlin and later Seven use probably ride a bit different than a swaged internally butted tubeset from Reynolds.


Yeap! We are on the same page! It may be argued that even the 5% might only be detectable after one has become thoroughly accustomed with the bike. 

You previously asked me about the "....claims about butted tubing that were out of line.."; the greatest emphasis was given to the improved performance charecteristics due to butting rather than the weight savings. I will not mention names as this is not the point of the post.

I dont know if I would go that high for steel. You may have seen this article but in case you have not, it makes for a nice reading......
Magnificent 7
I think the last paragraph says it all.


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## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> Yeap! We are on the same page! It may be argued that even the 5% might only be detectable after one has become thoroughly accustomed with the bike.
> 
> You previously asked me about the "....claims about butted tubing that were out of line.."; the greatest emphasis was given to the improved performance charecteristics due to butting rather than the weight savings. I will not mention names as this is not the point of the post.
> 
> I dont know if I would go that high for steel. You may have seen this article but in case you have not, it makes for a nice reading......
> Magnificent 7
> I think the last paragraph says it all.


Actually, I was thinking of upping to 85/15. 

It isn't good, better, best. It is stiff to soft and springy. Springy is good for some things, not as useful for others. Some builders may prefer to control ride qualities with thinner tubes, but they are qualities, not quantities.

Really, what ad copy are you referring to? As I said before, I have never seen a Ti builder claim that thin tube walls automatically made the bike faster or anything.


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## cohiba7777

Pretty bike - I am a Moots guy but that is a good looking rig!


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## dcgriz

I am only referring to my personal experience regarding the attempts of the sales force affiliated with one particular fabricator to push a higher priced model vs. another.


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## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> I am only referring to my personal experience regarding the attempts of the sales force affiliated with one particular fabricator to push a higher priced model vs. another.


Can't name names, eh? They're watching you...


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## dcgriz

Not going to serve any purpose other than flaming and I am not into flaming. People who read these few posts and did not know the differences now hopefully they have some idea and that suits me fine.


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## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> Not going to serve any purpose other than flaming and I am not into flaming. People who read these few posts and did not know the differences now hopefully they have some idea and that suits me fine.


Well, posting a link to a builder's web page to discuss what the builder wants people to know is hardly "flaming", even if one person happens to disagree with the builder.

Anyway, it doesn't sound like you're talking about copy in a brochure, but a conversation you had with a salesman.

Personally, I am always interested in hearing what builder's say about their products and materials. But given some of the other things you've posted in this thread, I think there is a fair chance that you might have misunderstood what whoever you were speaking to was getting at. Like I said, I have yet to see anyone make significant claims about Ti butting being "better", which may be do the fact that everyone I can think of who offers butted tubing also offers straight gauge.

It's kind of pointless to discuss hearsay - especially if there are absolutely no details to go off of.


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## dcgriz

Kontact said:


> Well, posting a link to a builder's web page to discuss what the builder wants people to know is hardly "flaming", even if one person happens to disagree with the builder.
> 
> Anyway, it doesn't sound like you're talking about copy in a brochure, but a conversation you had with a salesman.
> 
> Personally, I am always interested in hearing what builder's say about their products and materials. But given some of the other things you've posted in this thread, I think there is a fair chance that you might have misunderstood what whoever you were speaking to was getting at. Like I said, I have yet to see anyone make significant claims about Ti butting being "better", which may be do the fact that everyone I can think of who offers butted tubing also offers straight gauge.
> 
> It's kind of pointless to discuss hearsay - especially if there are absolutely no details to go off of.


You are persistant, aren't you? I am afraid though you seem to be missing the point of our discussion which has NOT been the specifics of my discussion with a representative of an organization BUT rather the notion that a consumer is best served if he is aware of the details of the product is considering for purchase so he is in a better position to "weed-out" the field of prospects, compared to a person who puts his blind trust on the sales talk. Very simple concept, really.


----------



## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> You are persistant, aren't you? I am afraid though you seem to be missing the point of our discussion which has NOT been the specifics of my discussion with a representative of an organization BUT rather the notion that a consumer is best served if he is aware of the details of the product is considering for purchase so he is in a better position to "weed-out" the field of prospects, compared to a person who puts his blind trust on the sales talk. Very simple concept, really.


No, my concern here is that you seem to be raising a number or red herrings, then quickly bowing out when asked about them. 

You aren't raising awareness of anything, just posing questions that are both unanswerable and don't actually matter.

I don't doubt that someone got a little overly enthusiastic about their product. But tube butting does affect ride qualities, and if a builder feels they have really figured out how to leverage that quality to produce a better product for their target market, they aren't necessarily wrong.


----------



## dcgriz

Kontact said:


> No, my concern here is that you seem to be raising a number or red herrings, then quickly bowing out when asked about them.
> 
> You aren't raising awareness of anything, just posing questions that are both unanswerable and don't actually matter.
> 
> I don't doubt that someone got a little overly enthusiastic about their product. But tube butting does affect ride qualities, and if a builder feels they have really figured out how to leverage that quality to produce a better product for their target market, they aren't necessarily wrong.


You are twisting things around and state inaccuracies. My original comment was strictly about the merits of consumer awareness pertaining to the manufacturing process and technical merits on the fabrication of custom frames. You have been insisting to be told the specifics about my discussions with a salesperson in addition to identifying his identity and affiliation. I have been refusing as this serves no purpose other than flaming or being malicious. I have been telling you that discussing the accuracies is more constructive than gossiping about the inaccuracies. You insist on gossiping. I do not know what your agenda is and frankly I do not care.
End of story.


----------



## Kontact

dcgriz said:


> You are twisting things around and state inaccuracies. My original comment was strictly about the merits of consumer awareness pertaining to the manufacturing process and technical merits on the fabrication of custom frames. You have been insisting to be told the specifics about my discussions with a salesperson in addition to identifying his identity and affiliation. I have been refusing as this serves no purpose other than flaming or being malicious. I have been telling you that discussing the accuracies is more constructive than gossiping about the inaccuracies. You insist on gossiping. I do not know what your agenda is and frankly I do not care.
> End of story.


I have no interest in gossip, I'm just trying to figure out what you are talking about, either by getting something specific, or going to a website and reading for myself. 

The red herrings I am referring to are you also bringing up Ti "grades" and build alignment methods, etc. You seem to like to hint that some things are issues and other things are not, but a curiously slippery whenever I ask you about them.

I don't think anything you've pointed out is an issue for selecting a frame builder. If they talk about the benefits of butting, they may certainly have a point. If they don't have anything to say about grades or alignment, that also means nothing about their build quality.

Distractions aren't consumer education. Your posts remind much more of the high modulus stuff that carbon makers confuse things with. Ti builders are pretty straightforward, in contrast. I'm not sure how they would deal with someone who starts asking if they use the "right" alignment method or checking whether their tube selection theory is "correct" or not. You seem to understand some of the underlying problems of Ti production, but are turning opinion into an issue.

Which brings us back full circle - the longevity of ti frames has everything to do with weld quality. But, like all of these issues, weld quality can't be judged by how pretty it is.


----------



## tempeteOntheRoad

Well, well. Lots of information and opinions here. I'll add mine then.

Many builders were not even considered here: Le Vacon or CMT (french) Passoni or Rewel (italian). And this is not even an exhaustive list after all calls from this thread! Guru (Quebec) was mentionned once: also a truly custom handbuild such as Baum (Australia)... Dean (US) is just as nice.

They all are nice.

Moots' silky tubes and seams are the best looking most regular I have seen. My own opinion.

I have seen and touched many! I own an old (1992) Sandvik 3/2.5 Litespeed made Kona hardtail and a fairly recent (2007) Litespeed Siena. How are the welds? The old mtb seems a little nicer. Both hold and ride like day 1.

But I tell you this: I also have a Motobecane road frame in the stable. And it looks just as good as any other Seven or Kent Eriksen... Different finish though. I prefer the silky smooth over the shiny.


----------



## PlatyPius

dcgriz said:


> You are twisting things around and state inaccuracies. My original comment was strictly about the merits of consumer awareness pertaining to the manufacturing process and technical merits on the fabrication of custom frames. You have been insisting to be told the specifics about my discussions with a salesperson in addition to identifying his identity and affiliation. I have been refusing as this serves no purpose other than flaming or being malicious. I have been telling you that discussing the accuracies is more constructive than gossiping about the inaccuracies. You insist on gossiping. I do not know what your agenda is and frankly I do not care.
> End of story.



You'll find that your enjoyment of RBR will be enhanced if you see this instead of his posts:

<table id="post3728032" class="tborder" width="100%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr title="Post 3728032"><td class="thead" style="font-weight:normal">







1 Day Ago </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Remove user from ignore list
Kontact </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> This message is hidden because *Kontact* is on your ignore list. 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


----------



## Kontact

PlatyPius said:


> You'll find that your enjoyment of RBR will be enhanced if you see this instead of his posts:


Another way to enjoy RBR is to post about bikes, rather than people all the time.

Don't you have someone to yell at for not using the search feature?


----------



## atpjunkie

*wow*



laffeaux said:


> Steve Potts and Carl Strong have to be pretty high up on the list.


guess I don't need to post this..I'd add Bill Holland

great minds and all


----------



## atpjunkie

*if your moots is 2 years old*



FTR said:


> My eye does not see too much difference between those welds and the ones on my 2 years old Moots:


it may be the same welder as that Ericksen


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## atpjunkie

*butting became more popular*



Kontact said:


> 95% weight. 5% ride.
> 
> On steel tubing it is more like 60/40. Titanium's different density and ductility makes it less sensitive to mid-span wall thinness for ride character than steel, it seems. But the "externally butted" Ti tubes that Merlin and later Seven use probably ride a bit different than a swaged internally butted tubeset from Reynolds.


when joining via welding (not brazed or brazed lug) with it's higher temps demanded thicker tubes at the joint.
So to keep frame weights down, butting got more dramatic. So yes Ti and Tig Welded steel get the most benefit from it and yes, most is merely weight reduction


----------



## Cinelli 82220

tempeteOntheRoad said:


> I own an old (1992) Sandvik 3/2.5 Litespeed made Kona hardtail


I have a no-name TST hardtail from 1994 with welds equal to anything made since. It too is in prefect shape after years of abuse by this Clydesdale.


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## jfkbike2

laffeaux said:


> Steve Potts and Carl Strong have to be pretty high up on the list.


#1 both are excellent


----------



## cohiba7777

Just looked at the Steve Potts bikes - WOW - he does some very nice work...anyone know where his road frames price out - just ballpark - thanks.


----------



## Bunyan

Interesting read and lots of good information. I have a question that someone hinted on I believe on the first page of this thread that deals with different Ti and where it comes from. Will that make a large difference in how the bike rides or feels? Or even the life span of a bike? 
I guess my question is will foreign Ti such as Russian, Chinese, German, Italian, etc perform that much different than US Ti? Or is Ti pretty much Ti?


----------



## Kontact

Bunyan said:


> Interesting read and lots of good information. I have a question that someone hinted on I believe on the first page of this thread that deals with different Ti and where it comes from. Will that make a large difference in how the bike rides or feels? Or even the life span of a bike?
> I guess my question is will foreign Ti such as Russian, Chinese, German, Italian, etc perform that much different than US Ti? Or is Ti pretty much Ti?


Theoretically, a poorly alloyed tube could lead to weakened welds or low yield strength, but despite the occasional hints by one maker about another maker's tubes, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that this is a problem. If the alloy was that bad, you wouldn't be able to extrude tubing out of it - ti is very sensitive to impurities. And like steel, most of the dynamic characteristics of a metal used below yield is very uniform to that metal, despite differences in alloy and heat treatment.

What does make a discernable difference in ride is how the tubing is treated after it leaves the mill. Seven and Spectrum refuse to cold work the tubes, and butt their tubing externally with a lathe for this reason, while companies like Lynskey and Serotta really like to bend, form and swage to get their ride character.


----------



## tigoat

Kontact said:


> Which brings us back full circle - the longevity of ti frames has everything to do with weld quality. But, like all of these issues, weld quality can't be judged by how pretty it is.


This is so true, as it seems like there is a general misconception about ti weld quality from looks alone. I have to admit though that I am a sucker for pretty looking weld joint even though I understand it has little to do with the underlying quality. I guess that the best way to judge the quality of a weld joint is by examining the micro structure in it with some sort of x-raying and sectioning.


----------



## cohiba7777

Kontact said:


> Theoretically, a poorly alloyed tube could lead to weakened welds or low yield strength, but despite the occasional hints by one maker about another maker's tubes, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that this is a problem. If the alloy was that bad, you wouldn't be able to extrude tubing out of it - ti is very sensitive to impurities. And like steel, most of the dynamic characteristics of a metal used below yield is very uniform to that metal, despite differences in alloy and heat treatment.
> 
> What does make a discernable difference in ride is how the tubing is treated after it leaves the mill. Seven and Spectrum refuse to cold work the tubes, and butt their tubing externally with a lathe for this reason, while companies like Lynskey and Serotta really like to bend, form and swage to get their ride character.


Titanium has many grades - the commercially pure (CP) titanium can be hardened in grade 1 (CP4) up to 100 Rockwell but would be an unfit choice for a bike frame - CP grades are normally for heat-related applications. Alloyed Ti also has many variants - 6Al-4V is most common in aerospace but 3Al-2.5V is as well and it's this grade (3/2.5) normally found most appropriate for bike frames due to its workable Rockwell grade (mid-30's) and its friendly reaction to welding processes. Some Ti grades add Molybdenum and Tin to offset the base alloy's softness (CP grades also tend to be very soft, in metal terms, making them easier to form through warm/cold work processes. Ti6-4 also has an ELI variant (extra-low interstitial) which is also referred to as medical grade Ti and use to manufacture human prosthetics and implantables.

Impurities can be found in any alloyed metal - while Sandvik Ti tubing is quite good and has an excellent reputation in the marketplace for its metallurgical consistency and having user-friendly amount of cold-work imparted during the forming process, the Russians were really the pioneers of ti alloying and manufacturing - see space program of the 1950s and their first nuclear subs. Indian Ti is getting better but I haven't seen it in the bike industry - not that it doesn't exist - I just haven't seen it. Ti sponge's most common impurity is calcium and during the purification process, where the calcium and some silicon is removed and argon gas is used to shield the product as it transitions to ingot form.

I am not sure what cold work any bike manufacturer could do after tubing leaves a mill other than bend it - cold work stress is imparted during the drawing process and relieved through annealing (heat). Without a bench to reduce size any shop imparted c/w would be minimal. I think your Ti bike tubes will be fine at the end of the day.


----------



## Kontact

cohiba7777 said:


> Titanium has many grades - the commercially pure (CP) titanium can be hardened in grade 1 (CP4) up to 100 Rockwell but would be an unfit choice for a bike frame - CP grades are normally for heat-related applications. Alloyed Ti also has many variants - 6Al-4V is most common in aerospace but 3Al-2.5V is as well and it's this grade (3/2.5) normally found most appropriate for bike frames due to its workable Rockwell grade (mid-30's) and its friendly reaction to welding processes. Some Ti grades add Molybdenum and Tin to offset the base alloy's softness (CP grades also tend to be very soft, in metal terms, making them easier to form through warm/cold work processes. Ti6-4 also has an ELI variant (extra-low interstitial) which is also referred to as medical grade Ti and use to manufacture human prosthetics and implantables.
> 
> Impurities can be found in any alloyed metal - while Sandvik Ti tubing is quite good and has an excellent reputation in the marketplace for its metallurgical consistency and having user-friendly amount of cold-work imparted during the forming process, the Russians were really the pioneers of ti alloying and manufacturing - see space program of the 1950s and their first nuclear subs. Indian Ti is getting better but I haven't seen it in the bike industry - not that it doesn't exist - I just haven't seen it. Ti sponge's most common impurity is calcium and during the purification process, where the calcium and some silicon is removed and argon gas is used to shield the product as it transitions to ingot form.
> 
> I am not sure what cold work any bike manufacturer could do after tubing leaves a mill other than bend it - cold work stress is imparted during the drawing process and relieved through annealing (heat). Without a bench to reduce size any shop imparted c/w would be minimal. I think your Ti bike tubes will be fine at the end of the day.


I wasn't talking about alloy grades. Time has proven that 3/2.5 and 6/4 work, but CP really doesn't. I was talking about companies implying that their tubing is "aerospace grade" and others are made to a lower standard, and that this has an impact on the final product.

Bike manufacturers draw, swage, deform, fold and bend tubing. This changes both the gross characteristics of the tubing, and also harmonics and vibration transmission - things people can feel.


----------



## TimV

I'm currently researching Titanium frame manufacturers for my next bike build. I noticed that most of the U.S. builders (Seven, Moots, Strong, Erikson, Kish) run around $3000 for a custom Ti frame. So far I've only found two that offer frames closer to $2000. The first is Lynskey. Their frames are definitely nice but I don't like their stock geometry choices (I want an E-TT of 580). The other is Dean. They do have a stock frame with a 580 TT but I have heard bad things about their customer service. Are there any other U.S. Ti frame builders near this price point? Thanks.


----------



## Kontact

TimV said:


> I'm currently researching Titanium frame manufacturers for my next bike build. I noticed that most of the U.S. builders (Seven, Moots, Strong, Erikson, Kish) run around $3000 for a custom Ti frame. So far I've only found two that offer frames closer to $2000. The first is Lynskey. Their frames are definitely nice but I don't like their stock geometry choices (I want an E-TT of 580). The other is Dean. They do have a stock frame with a 580 TT but I have heard bad things about their customer service. Are there any other U.S. Ti frame builders near this price point? Thanks.


Not sure why 7mm should be a show stopper for you, but the only other choice would be Litespeed, who also doesn't make a 580.

Kish's prices start at $2500, I believe. Edit - looks like he went up a bit to $2800.

7mm, BTW, is the change in reach you get by flipping a 6 degree stem.


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## PJ352

TimV said:


> I'm currently researching Titanium frame manufacturers for my next bike build. I noticed that most of the U.S. builders (Seven, Moots, Strong, Erikson, Kish) run around $3000 for a custom Ti frame. So far *I've only found two that offer frames closer to $2000. The first is Lynskey. Their frames are definitely nice but I don't like their stock geometry choices* (I want an E-TT of 580). The other is Dean. They do have a stock frame with a 580 TT but I have heard bad things about their customer service. Are there any other U.S. Ti frame builders near this price point? Thanks.


Based on my experience, it's worth contacting them, telling them your preferences/ requirements and why you're hedging.

When I was casually inquiring and had similar concerns re: their stock geo, they offered to build to my specs for the same price. I can't recall the model (and I'm not sure it would matter), but I think it was the R230. 

The worse that can happen is they'll say 'no'.


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## SeeTeeAkron

Habanero sells Chinese-made Ti frames in both stock and custom configurations. Their stock frames are under $1,000. I have owned a stock road frame from them for 10 years now and love it. Considering that bike frames are simply trusses and that the wheels and tires account for most of the change that I can make in ride quality, I wanted a frame that would last longer than I will and would require zero maintenance. Magical ride qualities are just that, magic, as in they don't exist, so I didn't want to pay a fortune for welded triangles of metal. I have been very happy with the frame and with zero cleaning/maintenance it looks like it did the day I unpacked it. All of this talk of "grades" and cold working and harmonics (seriously?) is just silly.


----------



## Ride-Fly

PlatyPius said:


> You'll find that your enjoyment of RBR will be enhanced if you see this instead of his posts:
> 
> <table id="post3728032" class="tborder" width="100%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr title="Post 3728032"><td class="thead" style="font-weight:normal">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 Day Ago </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Remove user from ignore list
> Kontact </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> This message is hidden because *Kontact* is on your ignore list.
> </td></tr></tbody></table>


Word.


----------



## PlatyPius

SeeTeeAkron said:


> Habanero sells Chinese-made Ti frames in both stock and custom configurations. Their stock frames are under $1,000. I have owned a stock road frame from them for 10 years now and love it. Considering that bike frames are simply trusses and that the wheels and tires account for most of the change that I can make in ride quality, I wanted a frame that would last longer than I will and would require zero maintenance. Magical ride qualities are just that, magic, as in they don't exist, so I didn't want to pay a fortune for welded triangles of metal. I have been very happy with the frame and with zero cleaning/maintenance it looks like it did the day I unpacked it. All of this talk of "grades" and cold working and harmonics (seriously?) is just silly.


And a Huffy frame is the same as a De Rosa frame. They're both just triangles made from metal...

You believe in a flat Earth, don't you?


----------



## SeeTeeAkron

PlatyPius said:


> And a Huffy frame is the same as a De Rosa frame. They're both just triangles made from metal...
> 
> You believe in a flat Earth, don't you?


Platy is an Idiotic bike snob who can only make a living by conning people into believing in "bike magic". The only reason a Huffy isn't a quality bike is because they use low grade materials that are heavy. If Huffy manufactured frames from reasonably decent cromoly (ala Soma or Surly)or other proven materials their frames would be fine. Are you comparing a Huffy frame to a Titanium frame? That's your MO isn't it, to smear and denigrate with arguments that, with a little consideration, possess little merit, if any. You are one of the worst posters, one of the worst influences, on these boards.

Here's hoping your crappy little boutique goes out of business as soon as possible.


----------



## PlatyPius

Wow! Almost missed this gem.

I guess I should just close my store and go work at WalMart assembling bike-shaped objects.


----------



## dcgriz

The Internet has opened all doors of communication although it would have been best for some to remain closed.


----------



## WTFcyclist

Which is the best welding & highest quality titanium frame? 

ORA Engineering, Taiwan.
ORA ENGINNERING CO,. LTD


----------



## jtompilot

dekindy said:


> Roark Custom Titanium Bicycles - Specializing in custom titanium bicycle manufacturing for multi-sport athletes and riders of all skill levels.
> 
> Don't forget Roark.


You must be joking or blind.

I know this is an old thread but about 5 years ago I was at the Chicago bike show and looked at Roark. Across the asile was a booth with a Moots and an IF. OMG, Roark couldn't the blue prints for those two.


----------



## PlatyPius

jtompilot said:


> You must be joking or blind.
> 
> I know this is an old thread but about 5 years ago I was at the Chicago bike show and looked at Roark. Across the asile was a booth with a Moots and an IF. OMG, Roark couldn't the blue prints for those two.


You realize that Roark makes parts for the aerospace industry, right? In this case, it IS rocket science...


----------



## jtompilot

PlatyPius said:


> You realize that Roark makes parts for the aerospace industry, right? In this case, it IS rocket science...


Yes, I knew that. I didn't the Roark would fall apart. The welds were not nearly as nice


----------



## Dajianshan

I can practically see ORA from my front porch.


----------



## Ride-Fly

jtompilot said:


> Yes, I knew that. I didn't the Roark would fall apart. The welds were not nearly as nice


I have to agree. I've seen Roark at the LA Bike show many years ago and their welds are not nearly as refined as Moots and Eriksen. That being said, I am sure they know how to weld a frame that will hold up a lifetime. Just not as purdy.


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Ride-Fly said:


> I have to agree. I've seen Roark at the LA Bike show many years ago and their welds are not nearly as refined as Moots and Eriksen. That being said, I am sure they know how to weld a frame that will hold up a lifetime. Just not as purdy.


Is Roark still around? I thought they went under due to a recall of their ti frames back in '06.


----------



## are9are9s

Can you please post a picture of a Lynskey Chinese weld? I'm dying to see this b/c it would be a first where I heard someone complain about his welds


----------



## Lookbiker

are9are9s said:


> Can you please post a picture of a Lynskey Chinese weld? I'm dying to see this b/c it would be a first where I heard someone complain about his welds


Lynskeys are made in the US, unless China has been annexed by Tennessee and I'm not keeping up with current events.


----------



## rider9

I have a friend who just bought a Lynskey and it is sweet! It's a very nice bike! Excellent quality welds. I don't know where you guys get your information, but Lynskeys are top notch.


----------



## gordy748

I'm amazed there has been 5 pages of replies, and not a single mention of the most high exalted Mr Ernesto...


----------



## Kontact

gordy748 said:


> I'm amazed there has been 5 pages of replies, and not a single mention of the most high exalted Mr Ernesto...


Are you kidding or not? It doesn't sound like many Ti Colnagos survived even their tiny warranty periods. Especially the ones with the twin down tubes.


----------



## gordy748

Kontact said:


> Are you kidding or not? It doesn't sound like many Ti Colnagos survived even their tiny warranty periods. Especially the ones with the twin down tubes.


No, not kidding you at all. Though I know the twin downtubes couldn't handle the torsional forces at the bottom bracket so well, and the bititans were exceptionally bad.

I've actually got a CT1, and hopefully it will upload this time. It's just fabulous and well past it's Euro sell-by date. Maybe I got lucky... Anyway, in art decor, with ovalized tubes.


----------



## Ride-Fly

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Is Roark still around? I thought they went under due to a recall of their ti frames back in '06.


I am not sure. I didn't know they had a recall of their frames. If they are still around, I wish them prosperity. 

But I personally wouldn't pay that kind of money for what you get. I know the beauty of welds don't make the bike but I could get a custom Eriksen or Moots for what they are (were) asking. 

I think Lynskey has some damn fine welds too. I personally don't know if I could get past the look of twisted Ti but I am sure they are exceptional performers. How would you rate your Helix to some of your other Ti bikes you've had? I almost bought a Cooper for my wife back when they had their one day sale. A Cooper with S&S couplers and 105/Tiagra/FSA mix of components would have run me $3000! Should have done it.


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Ride-Fly said:


> I am not sure. I didn't know they had a recall of their frames. If they are still around, I wish them prosperity.
> 
> But I personally wouldn't pay that kind of money for what you get. I know the beauty of welds don't make the bike but I could get a custom Eriksen or Moots for what they are (were) asking.
> 
> I think Lynskey has some damn fine welds too. I personally don't know if I could get past the look of twisted Ti but I am sure they are exceptional performers. How would you rate your Helix to some of your other Ti bikes you've had? I almost bought a Cooper for my wife back when they had their one day sale. A Cooper with S&S couplers and 105/Tiagra/FSA mix of components would have run me $3000! Should have done it.


While I really hate giving legs to stupid threads like this (OP is an obvious troll who doesn’t know squat about ti), but since you asked I’ll oblige. Lets just say I’m on my second Lynskey for a reason. Out of the multiple ti brands I’ve owned over the last 18 years (Dean, Moots, IF, Omega/Enigma, Serotta, Litespeed, TST, and Spicer) they and Dean (pre-CS issues) are the only one that has earned my business more than once (In fact I’m about to pull the trigger on a third), why? In my opinion they cover all the bases with their designs. I think the whole “my weld is prettier than your weld” thing is pretty played out , the joinery method is only one aspect that I look for in a Ti frame. For me, having a cute weld on a “racing” frame that weighs over 1500gms in a 54cm IMO defeats the purpose. Value is a consideration as well. While my wife is understanding about my spending on bike stuff, I can’t justify what some builders ask for a plain non-butted straight gauge frame. I’d rather pay the same or slightly more for a frame that has innovative features, is reasonably light, and has the ride characteristics I’m looking for. I was a skeptic of the Helix design as well but having had plenty of time to compare, I can honestly say it’s the best all around bike I’ve ever owned. My prior Lynskey was outstanding but the Helix is special and really shines in the stiffness department (both HT and BB) without being harsh, the ride is sublime.


----------



## Juanmoretime

Amen brother! I'm only on my 6th Lynskey for the same reason but I still have all but one. That's because it was a low end tt bike and I wanted the most aero bike I could get that fit me properly.


----------



## paul y.

european.dr said:


> Lynskey welding not very nice,same like oriental made frame.....


You can't be serious. You have to be kidding right?


----------



## paul y.

Most of the good Ti framers are very good. I have a Lynskey so of course its the best.


----------



## darwinosx

I wouldn't say its like an Asian frame but its not like a Moots either. Litespeed and Lynskey have only ever had average welds.


----------



## CMi_rider

TimV said:


> I'm currently researching Titanium frame manufacturers for my next bike build. I noticed that most of the U.S. builders (Seven, Moots, Strong, Erikson, Kish) run around $3000 for a custom Ti frame. So far I've only found two that offer frames closer to $2000. The first is Lynskey. Their frames are definitely nice but I don't like their stock geometry choices (I want an E-TT of 580). The other is Dean. They do have a stock frame with a 580 TT but I have heard bad things about their customer service. Are there any other U.S. Ti frame builders near this price point? Thanks.


You could try Quiring Cycles. QUIRINGCYCLES.NET

More examples here: MMBA • View topic - Cycle to Fitness-Detroits ONLY Quiring dealer!


----------



## Cinelli 82220

gordy748 said:


> I'm amazed there has been 5 pages of replies, and not a single mention of the most high exalted Mr Ernesto...


Colnago titanium was outsourced.
Some of the Bititans are still around!


----------



## Ramjm_2000

darwinosx said:


> I wouldn't say its like an Asian frame but its not like a Moots either. Litespeed and Lynskey have only ever had average welds.


My Moots welds were nice, IMO looked overly "cleaned".


----------



## rider9

Juanmoretime said:


> Amen brother! I'm only on my 6th Lynskey for the same reason but I still have all but one. That's because it was a low end tt bike and I wanted the most aero bike I could get that fit me properly.


^ This is not exactly a rousing endorsement for Lynskey. Why have you been through 6 bikes? That is, have you worn them out? Wrecked them? The other five were stolen? You're just fickle and can't make up your mind? Oh, I know the n+1 rule. This is more of a curiosity question.

You see, I've heard people talk about titanium bikes being "the last bike you'll ever need."


----------



## Ramjm_2000

rider9 said:


> ^ This is not exactly a rousing endorsement for Lynskey. Why have you been through 6 bikes? That is, have you worn them out? Wrecked them? The other five were stolen? You're just fickle and can't make up your mind? Oh, I know the n+1 rule. This is more of a curiosity question.
> 
> You see, I've heard people talk about titanium bikes being "the last bike you'll ever need."


Each of his Lynskey's are different. Cyclocross, Road, Mountain Bike, 29er, Commute, etc...

Sounds like a good endorsement to me....


----------



## Christopaul

I have 2 1/2 titanium bikes. One is a Colnago CT-1, the other is a Merlin Extra Light and the "1/2" is a Lemond Tete de Course. The Colnago is made from "6/4" titanium which is very stiff. The Merlin is made from "3.25" titanium, which can produce that "magical feeling ti". The Lemond is a titanium (the down tube and chain stays) with the other tubes being carbon. In the past I've owned 2 Serottas (the Legend and the Hors Category) and a Lemond Victoire (full ti). 

Most bikes are made from 3.25 ti. Nowadays, many will mix carbon with the seat stays or mix 6/4 ti on the seat & or chain stays. There are so many combinations and possibilities. My personal favorite is the Merlin Extra Light. What makes this unique is that the down tube is shaped (like many aluminum bikes are). This allows using less material but adds rigidity from the larger shape. The end result is a very fast & responsive bike that still has that magic feel. 

Every manufacturer has a story to tell. The best way to find out what will be best for you, is to take a test ride. If you are looking for an opportunistic after market buy, then keep an open mind and consider all of the brands mentioned in earlier posts, plus add: Dean, Mikelson, Stong, Titus, and Everti. 

Happy hunting!


----------



## jim_

somebody was looking for a frame round the 3K mark. What about Alliance ?


----------



## Bunyan

Just throwing it out there. Take a look at Tritonbikes from Moscow. I've got one on order and his work is beautiful. They may not be the ultimate weight weenie bike since he only uses straight gauge Russian Ti but you can't beat a custom built bike with great customer service for around 1K. 
I'm a large Clyde and he's able to custom fab me a frame with oversized tubing. If you're on a budget, check him out. I'll be writing up a small personal review of my experience having a custom frame built up.


----------



## PlatyPius

Bunyan said:


> Just throwing it out there. Take a look at Tritonbikes from *Moscow*. I've got one on order and his work is beautiful. They may not be the ultimate weight weenie bike since he only uses *straight gauge Russian Ti* but you can't beat a custom built bike with great customer service for around 1K.
> I'm a large Clyde and he's able to custom fab me a frame with oversized tubing. If you're on a budget, check him out. I'll be writing up a small personal review of my experience having a custom frame built up.



Yeah... I don't think I'll be sending any of my US money to Russia.


----------



## Bunyan

Good thing is nobody is making you. It's just an option for those of us who don't feel it's reasonable to drop 5k on a frame.


----------



## PlatyPius

Bunyan said:


> Good thing is nobody is making you. It's just an option for those of us who don't feel it's reasonable to drop 5k on a frame.


No, wanting to only spend $1000 on a ti frame is unreasonable. Ti frames are expensive for a reason - it isn't just empty profit being added for the "prestige", good Ti costs a lot and welding Ti costs a lot.

Plus there's the whole "sending money to Russia" thing...


----------



## Bunyan

I respect your opinion but you're getting the wrong idea. I'm not saying a $1K custom frame is better than your US made dream machine. It's just an option for those on a budget and for you to tell me that a 1k custom Ti frame is bad, than I feel for ya. Of course I would like to keep my money State side as well but have yet to find anyone willing to make me a solid frame for that budget. I have to look custom due to my size. They just don't make stock road bikes for former defensive linemen. 
I almost dropped the money on a Moots but with a baby on the way it's just not going to happen right now. 
Do I feel bad sending money to Russia? Not really, check the rest of your bike(s). I bet you have quite a bit of money in your components and wheels that weren't made in the good 'ol US of A.


----------



## Kontact

Bunyan said:


> I respect your opinion but you're getting the wrong idea. I'm not saying a $1K custom frame is better than your US made dream machine. It's just an option for those on a budget and for you to tell me that a 1k custom Ti frame is bad, than I feel for ya. Of course I would like to keep my money State side as well but have yet to find anyone willing to make me a solid frame for that budget. I have to look custom due to my size. They just don't make stock road bikes for former defensive linemen.
> I almost dropped the money on a Moots but with a baby on the way it's just not going to happen right now.
> Do I feel bad sending money to Russia? Not really, check the rest of your bike(s). I bet you have quite a bit of money in your components and wheels that weren't made in the good 'ol US of A.


If you are that big, who is doing the design work? Or are you relying on the "expertise" of this unknown Russian company to design and build a bike that is so outside the norm?

I have seen bikes like this, before, but it was designed by Leonard Zinn and built by Erikson.


----------



## atpjunkie

*my thoughts as well*



rider9 said:


> ^ This is not exactly a rousing endorsement for Lynskey. Why have you been through 6 bikes? That is, have you worn them out? Wrecked them? The other five were stolen? You're just fickle and can't make up your mind? Oh, I know the n+1 rule. This is more of a curiosity question.
> 
> You see, I've heard people talk about titanium bikes being "the last bike you'll ever need."


I view custom Ti bikes as lifetime purchases

you shouldn't need 6 of them in the small duration the company has been in business


----------



## Bunyan

Kontact said:


> If you are that big, who is doing the design work? Or are you relying on the "expertise" of this unknown Russian company to design and build a bike that is so outside the norm?
> 
> I have seen bikes like this, before, but it was designed by Leonard Zinn and built by Erikson.


Kontact, I'm not abnormally big, 6'6" 280 lbs but stock frames seem to flex and tend to be too small for my build. I got fitted and had a blue print that I shared with my designer that we tweaked a bit more. His background started with "trial" bikes which take a beating so I know he can build me a stout frame but yet have the Ti characteristics that I'm looking for. I'm sure one could go to him and just give him ones dimensions and he'd design a bike that fits just right. 
There's a long thread on mtbr with a lot of satisfied customers. I know I'm taking a bit of a risk but at the same time I'm enjoying building up a bike from scratch rather than picking up a stock bike off the showroom floor. 
He's using oversized tubing and a larger head tube for a tapered fork and he's still working with his engineer on what size seat/chain stay he should use to handle my weight and torque. It's not going to be super light but neither am I. I have diagrams etc but don't want to clutter this thread with it. 
I was just giving options for a down and dirty custom option.


----------



## PlatyPius

atpjunkie said:


> I view custom Ti bikes as lifetime purchases
> 
> you shouldn't need 6 of them in the small duration the company has been in business


He hasn't "gone through" 6 of them. He still has 5 of them. He said he had six and that he sold one. The rest are still in existence and are ridden.

There are lots of kinds of bikes, ya know. He liked one Lynskey so well that he bought 5 more in other styles.


----------



## Kontact

Bunyan said:


> Kontact, I'm not abnormally big, 6'6" 280 lbs but stock frames seem to flex and tend to be too small for my build. I got fitted and had a blue print that I shared with my designer that we tweaked a bit more. His background started with "trial" bikes which take a beating so I know he can build me a stout frame but yet have the Ti characteristics that I'm looking for. I'm sure one could go to him and just give him ones dimensions and he'd design a bike that fits just right.
> There's a long thread on mtbr with a lot of satisfied customers. I know I'm taking a bit of a risk but at the same time I'm enjoying building up a bike from scratch rather than picking up a stock bike off the showroom floor.
> He's using oversized tubing and a larger head tube for a tapered fork and he's still working with his engineer on what size seat/chain stay he should use to handle my weight and torque. It's not going to be super light but neither am I. I have diagrams etc but don't want to clutter this thread with it.
> I was just giving options for a down and dirty custom option.


Well, if you want a road bike that will ride like a trials or mountain bike, that guy certainly sounds like the guy to do it.

Everyone else is riding road bikes designed by people who design road bikes.


----------



## swuzzlebubble

NAHBS Preview | Baum Corretto Pista | Cycling Tips


----------



## NealH

Nothing beats the Moots for raw quality of Ti construction, frame after frame. Moots doesn't have to pimp up their bikes, the construction quality speaks for itself.

Seven, Kish and a host of others exude buckets of craftsmanship too, but in my opinion Moots sets the benchmark.


----------



## elviento2

Moots welds are above everybody else's. Period. 

The practical difference is pure cosmetic though. Any reputatble builder's welds should be functionally equivalent. So from that standpoint, you could be easily paying $1K extra for no real benefits. Then again, flat chested girls often try to convince you a nice set of D's were merely two lumps of fat.


----------



## crank1979

Bunyan said:


> Just throwing it out there. Take a look at Tritonbikes from Moscow. I've got one on order and his work is beautiful. They may not be the ultimate weight weenie bike since he only uses straight gauge Russian Ti but you can't beat a custom built bike with great customer service for around 1K.
> I'm a large Clyde and he's able to custom fab me a frame with oversized tubing. If you're on a budget, check him out. I'll be writing up a small personal review of my experience having a custom frame built up.


I'm also in the process of having one made up as a bit of an XC trailer towing/commuter mix. There are other cheap ti frames around but I think the thread on mtbr is a great endorsement of his work.

I also have a Moots RSL and it is beautiful. I came down to the RSL or a Baum when choosing my road bike but after hearing about a few cracked Baums I went with the Moots. I'm very happy I did, even if it meant buying american instead of locally.


----------



## T0mi

Kontact said:


> Well, if you want a road bike that will ride like a trials or mountain bike, that guy certainly sounds like the guy to do it.
> 
> Everyone else is riding road bikes designed by people who design road bikes.


It's not like designing a road bike was rocket science.  

If you look closely at road bike history, there has been no real breakthrough in 100 years in frame building except trying different materials like aluminium, ti then carbon. Geometry has evolved, tubes have been made bigger and bigger, very old and common techno have been introduced like butting, tapered tubes. But all has been done very slowly and this is the reason you don't need to be an engineer to build frames. All is open knowledge.

All independant framebuilders just tried to replicate what their mentors/inspirations were doing, adding a few experimentations there and there but that's all. There is no reason a trial bike builder can't do it. He has less experience in road bikes, yes, but that doesn't mean his frames will suck.

As a whole, Americans are known to build crappy things in every domain. Look at your stupid cars, houses. Of courses there are exceptions yes, but your protectionnism and nationalism is completely irrelevant.


----------



## Kontact

T0mi said:


> It's not like designing a road bike was rocket science.
> 
> If you look closely at road bike history, there has been no real breakthrough in 100 years in frame building except trying different materials like aluminium, ti then carbon. Geometry has evolved, tubes have been made bigger and bigger, very old and common techno have been introduced like butting, tapered tubes. But all has been done very slowly and this is the reason you don't need to be an engineer to build frames. All is open knowledge.
> 
> All independant framebuilders just tried to replicate what their mentors/inspirations were doing, adding a few experimentations there and there but that's all. There is no reason a trial bike builder can't do it. He has less experience in road bikes, yes, but that doesn't mean his frames will suck.
> 
> As a whole, Americans are known to build crappy things in every domain. Look at your stupid cars, houses. Of courses there are exceptions yes, but your protectionnism and nationalism is completely irrelevant.


As I said earlier, I have seen one super heavy weight ti road bike, and it looked nothing like any other ti bike except in color. What formula is Triton using for something so totally outside the norm that only a handful of US companies have ever tried?

If we were talking about a bike for someone 200 lbs, I'd mostly agree with you.


----------



## Bill2

Check out the ti and carbon frame construction at Legend (by Marco Bertoletti):
Bici da corsa | bdc-forum.it - Visualizza messaggio singolo - Visita a Legend. Handmade by Bertoletti


----------



## Cinelli 82220

^Interesting link, I'd never heard of Bertoletti before. I'd love to visit that shop!

I often go to that BDC forum just to look at the pictures, and wish I could read Italian. They had pictures of Doriano De Rosa building ti frames, and one was a ti mountain bike...that would be pretty rare.


----------



## Ramjm_2000

NealH said:


> Nothing beats the Moots for raw quality of Ti construction, frame after frame. Moots doesn't have to pimp up their bikes, the construction quality speaks for itself.
> 
> Seven, Kish and a host of others exude buckets of craftsmanship too, but in my opinion Moots sets the benchmark.


While my VaMoots had pretty welds it was heavy. It would also rank only about fourth or fifth favorite of all my ti bikes in terms of ride quality.


----------



## FTR

Bunyan said:


> Kontact, I'm not abnormally big, 6'6" 280 lbs


:confused5::confused5::eek6::eek6:

You are 4" taller than me and an additional 100+lbs.
I have no isse with you buying from Russia or anywhere else so long as you are aware of the risks of getting it wrong or know EXACTLY what you want.


----------



## kjdhawkhill

Bs and and attitude can be way more fun than Ds and debbie downer.


----------



## mgringle

I just received my Seven and it is fabulous. Pics come after I get back from skiing.


----------



## froze

Motobecane makes titanium bikes that come out of Taiwan that are at least 98% of the finish and quality of the much more expensive American made TI frames. So it depends on what you want, the best that may cost you $7,000 or more fully equipped, or something that is about 2% less in quality for $2800 fully equipped.


----------



## dongringo

Bunyan said:


> Do I feel bad sending money to Russia? Not really, check the rest of your bike(s). I bet you have quite a bit of money in your components and wheels that weren't made in the good 'ol US of A.


I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about sending money to Russia either. Surely these people who have a problem with that buy plenty of things from other countries, including the food they put in their stomach.

I for one very much look forward to seeing and hearing about your bike made in Mother Russia. If your experience goes well, I might be in the market for one. Can't beat that price. Please keep us informed.


----------



## dongringo

mgringle said:


> I just received my Seven and it is fabulous. Pics come after I get back from skiing.


You wouldn't happen to be the guy I saw a few days ago on the Marine Drive path in Portland would you? (with the Enve 1 fork?) If so, sorry I didn't respond to what you said before I turned around...didn't understand what you said...if it was you of course.


----------



## mgringle

dongringo said:


> You wouldn't happen to be the guy I saw a few days ago on the Marine Drive path in Portland would you? (with the Enve 1 fork?) If so, sorry I didn't respond to what you said before I turned around...didn't understand what you said...if it was you of course.


Hi - Not me. I'm in Seattle and got it yesterday while it wsa raining and right before leaving for the weekend. Waiting to see others around!


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> Motobecane makes titanium bikes that come out of Taiwan that are at least 98% of the finish and quality of the much more expensive American made TI frames. So it depends on what you want, the best that may cost you $7,000 or more fully equipped, or something that is about 2% less in quality for $2800 fully equipped.


For $2700 you can get an American made Lynskey, fully equipped.


----------



## froze

PlatyPius said:


> No, wanting to only spend $1000 on a ti frame is unreasonable. Ti frames are expensive for a reason - it isn't just empty profit being added for the "prestige", good Ti costs a lot and welding Ti costs a lot.
> 
> Plus there's the whole "sending money to Russia" thing...


I wouldn't feel bad about it either. While I try my best not to buy from China, I know it's impossible not to. Shimano has plants in China, Malaysia, Japan, Taiwan with Japan having the smallest output while China makes the bulk of it...something that Japan is not happy with but market forces have driven for the search of cheap labor in order to be competitive. Microshift is a Taiwanese company but some of their production is also now in China. Campy's Record 11 is made in China. In a nut shell you can't prevent buying stuff in China. 

When I last visited Russia in 2007 their bikes had improved a lot since 12 years had elapsed when I was last there. You cannot ask a Russian about the quality of their bicycle brands because they will say their the best, they say the same thing about their cars, if you know anything about Russian cars you know their junk, if you have driven in Russia you see more broken down cars there on the side of the road then in any Western country. The Lada/Yugot was based on the Fiat 124 platform. However Lada has since been partially acquired by Renault/Nissan, since I haven't been back to Russia since that happened I can't say whether or not Lada has improved. Volga also suffered from severe mechanical problems, and since I've been there Chrysler licensed Volga so they could copy the Sebring platform I'm again not sure how that is working out either. The Russian mob likes MBZ's, no small wonder, they need a reliable car to make their getaways!


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> For $2700 you can get an American made Lynskey, fully equipped.


 Not with full Dura Ace and Mavic Ksyrium Elites you can't; and Lynskey won't even give you the full 105 group, they'll charge you another $100 to get the 105 crank, $75 for the 105 Brakes. So just upgrading to all 105 and the Elites wheelset you'll pay $3482 at Lynsky and with that you get the dull matte satan finish instead of the bright brushed that Motobecane has that Lynskey wants $300 extra to do. Nice try, but Lynsky falls way short in the value department.

Lynskey lowest cost bike, but you have to change the options to get the wheel set and 105 crank;: Cooper Complete Titanium Sport Series Road Bicycle Frame with Shimano 105 - Lynskey Performance | Titanium Bicycles

Motobecane's highest cost bike: Titanium Road Bikes, Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Le Champion Team Ti

Compare the two and see what you get for your money.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> Not with full Dura Ace and Mavic Ksyrium Elites you can't; and Lynskey won't even give you the full 105 group, they'll charge you another $100 to get the 105 crank, $75 for the 105 Brakes. So just upgrading to all 105 and the Elites wheelset you'll pay $3482 at Lynsky and with that you get the dull matte satan finish instead of the bright brushed that Motobecane has that Lynskey wants $300 extra to do. Nice try, but Lynsky falls way short in the value department.
> 
> Lynskey lowest cost bike, but you have to change the options to get the wheel set and 105 crank;: Cooper Complete Titanium Sport Series Road Bicycle Frame with Shimano 105 - Lynskey Performance | Titanium Bicycles
> 
> Motobecane's highest cost bike: Titanium Road Bikes, Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Le Champion Team Ti
> 
> Compare the two and see what you get for your money.


I did: 

One you get an American made, lifetime warranty frame with cold shaped tubing by the people who invented the 3/2.5 Ti road bike. And the other you a bike made of titanium.

The second is a great option for people who care about the material they are riding, rather than how or what they're riding.


----------



## darwinosx

Kontact said:


> by the people who invented the 3/2.5 Ti road bike.


Litespeed did not invent the 3/2.5 Ti road bike. If you are price sensitive there is nothing wrong with the Motebecane frame. I'll take my Moots over a Lynsky any day. Better welds and alignment which is more important to me than the fancy tube shapes.


----------



## raymonda

The Moto is a fine bike and a great value but I would take the Cooper over the Moto. But then I would just buy the frame and do my own build.


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> I did:
> 
> One you get an American made, lifetime warranty frame with cold shaped tubing by the people who invented the 3/2.5 Ti road bike. And the other you a bike made of titanium.
> 
> The second is a great option for people who care about the material they are riding, rather than how or what they're riding.


So you got a full Dura Ace Lynskey with Elite wheelsedt for the price of the Motobecane? Could you show me where on the Lynskey web site where that deal exists?

And the Motobecane is 3/2.5 Titanium. And you get a 100 year warranty with the Motobecane which is not limited to the life of the original rider like the Lynsky.

Teledyn made the first USA made mass produced 3/2.5 TI frame in 1974, not Litespeed, Litespeed wasn't even a vision yet. And Speedwell, a British company, made the first custom TI frames back in 1968 and the first commercial mass produced frame in 73 beating Teledyn by a year.


----------



## darwinosx

I had a Litespeed Vortex for some which was Litespeeds top of the lin 6/4 bike. I put alot of miles on it but the first ride of my Moots showed it to be a better handling bike and the Moots welds smoked Litespeeds.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> So you got a full Dura Ace Lynskey with Elite wheelsedt for the price of the Motobecane? Could you show me where on the Lynskey web site where that deal exists?
> 
> And the Motobecane is 3/2.5 Titanium. And you get a 100 year warranty with the Motobecane which is not limited to the life of the original rider like the Lynsky.
> 
> Teledyn made the first USA made mass produced 3/2.5 TI frame in 1974, not Litespeed, Litespeed wasn't even a vision yet. And Speedwell, a British company, made the first custom TI frames back in 1968 and the first commercial mass produced frame in 73 beating Teledyn by a year.


That's a whole lot of incorrect. 

Teledyne produced a pure titanium bike in '74, which all broke when ridden enough. The people who formed Merlin and the Lynskeys were the first two groups to recognize that the 3/2.5 alloy that the aerospace industry had moved to would have the fatigue resistance to make bikes out of. Otherwise, Ti bikes would still be as rare as lugged titanium.

And of course they aren't equipped the same way. Lynskey doesn't give out free frames like Bikesdirect. And, if you believe that the frame just doesn't matter, they have a DA equipped aluminum frame bike for $1200 - perfect for your needs. If you believe that a frame is more than just its geometry or materials, then you can buy a lesser equipped bike from the masters of Ti for $2800.

The Motobecane warranty, since you aren't familiar:
_This warranty is void in its entirety by any modification of the frame, fork, *components*, removal of *decals* or any signs of bending/denting thereof._

_Warranty starts from the date of purchase, *applies only to the original owner*, cannot be transferred and does not apply to bicycles used by professional racers._

So if you aren't the first owner, have put in aftermarket jockey pulleys or removed the DT decals; no warranty.
Motobecane USA | Warranty


----------



## Kontact

darwinosx said:


> Litespeed did not invent the 3/2.5 Ti road bike. If you are price sensitive there is nothing wrong with the Motebecane frame. I'll take my Moots over a Lynsky any day. Better welds and alignment which is more important to me than the fancy tube shapes.


Who produced a 3/2.5 titanium road bike prior to 1986? Merlin had MTBs in '86, but didn't have road until '87.


----------



## darwinosx

Not every Teledyne frame broke. Merlin claims to be the first 3/2.5 too btw. In any event its pretty obvious that whoever had the first, and I doubt it was Litespeed, its hardlya huge jump to go from pure titanium to the only commercially available source which was 3/2.5 from aircraft industry leftovers.


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> I did:
> 
> One you get an American made, lifetime warranty frame with cold shaped tubing by the people who invented the 3/2.5 Ti road bike. And the other you a bike made of titanium.
> 
> The second is a great option for people who care about the material they are riding, rather than how or what they're riding.


My post about who made the first ti bike was in response to this one, you said Americans INVENTED the ti road bike, that's what my post was concerning, you mentioned nothing about who BUILT the first reliable TI bike. Sorry, just reposting what you said.

And quite frankly I could care less about frame warranties!! if there is a material or workmanship issue it will rear it's ugly head within the first year or two of the bicycles life. The original components and decals etc will last at least the next 10 years, well beyond a problem with frame material or workmanship would fail by.

Also your interpretation of the Motobecane warranty maybe incorrect. Because the warranty about the alteration of the components will void the warranty is applying only to the components themselves, it does not mean you put different wheelset on Motobecane and now the frame warranty is voided, it means if you change the spokes on the wheelset you void the factory warranty on the wheel set. BUT, just in case I'm wrong, I've e-mailed BD to clear up the confusion to see if your right or I am. But that's the way I read it. And the decal thing is if you purposely rub off the decals, has nothing to do with age just slowly fading them away, and thats because if you rub the decals off you have to take the clear coat covering off which could lead to some sort of frame damage.

I have a life time warranty on my 84 Trek 660 and my 88 Miyata Team, Miyata is out of business so there goes that warranty, and Trek doesn't make lugged steel frames anymore so there goes that warranty. And either company could argue that after 29 years or so it was fatigue that made the bike fail thus no coverage. And Lynskey being a newcomer who's to say how long they'll be in business? A chance you have to take huh? So you could still end up with no warranty. Or if they get bought out by a company like AGB who does everything in their power to not pay out for a warranty issue; or the original owner dies and the guy who takes over screws people every which way they can.

I'll post the letter when I get it.


----------



## darwinosx

One of the top end bike mags, Peloton or one of them, just gave the Motebecane a favorable review. its a hell of a deal if price is an issue.
I wouldn't buy anything from ABG. They have ruined every company they have bought and reneged on warranties left and right.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> My post about who made the first ti bike was in response to this one, *you said Americans INVENTED the ti road bike*, that's what my post was concerning, you mentioned nothing about who BUILT the first reliable TI bike. Sorry, just reposting what you said.
> 
> And quite frankly I could care less about frame warranties!! if there is a material or workmanship issue it will rear it's ugly head within the first year or two of the bicycles life. The original components and decals etc will last at least the next 10 years, well beyond a problem with frame material or workmanship would fail by.
> 
> Also your interpretation of the Motobecane warranty maybe incorrect. Because the warranty about the alteration of the components will void the warranty is applying only to the components themselves, it does not mean you put different wheelset on Motobecane and now the frame warranty is voided, it means if you change the spokes on the wheelset you void the factory warranty on the wheel set. BUT, just in case I'm wrong, I've e-mailed BD to clear up the confusion to see if your right or I am. But that's the way I read it. And the decal thing is if you purposely rub off the decals, has nothing to do with age just slowly fading them away, and thats because if you rub the decals off *you have to take the clear coat covering* off which could lead to some sort of frame damage.


No, this is re-posting what I said:



> the people who invented the *3/2.5 Ti road bike*


 Not "road bike", not "Ti road bike", not "Ti bike", not "3/2.5 Ti bike". You have to read all of it. The first road bike made of 3/2.5 Ti was made by the Lynskey's and shown at a trade show in 1986 under the Litespeed name. Merlin followed with a road bike in '87.


A warranty that voids if the decals come off is a mighty fussy warranty. But if you are buying a bike that you can trust, because it is sold by an importer who didn't pay for the Motobecane name and comes from a mystery factory in Taiwan, then I guess you won't need to find out if it is a good warranty or not.

These bikes aren't clear coated. What are your talking about?


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> No, this is re-posting what I said:
> 
> Not "road bike", not "Ti road bike", not "Ti bike", not "3/2.5 Ti bike". You have to read all of it. The first road bike made of 3/2.5 Ti was made by the Lynskey's and shown at a trade show in 1986 under the Litespeed name. Merlin followed with a road bike in '87.
> 
> 
> A warranty that voids if the decals come off is a mighty fussy warranty. But if you are buying a bike that you can trust, because it is sold by an importer who didn't pay for the Motobecane name and comes from a mystery factory in Taiwan, then I guess you won't need to find out if it is a good warranty or not.
> 
> These bikes aren't clear coated. What are your talking about?


Teledyne Bicycle Guide 1
Teledyne Titan main
Origin Of The Species : Speedwell Titanium

I think your getting confused about seam vs seamless TI tubing, Merlin made the first SEAMLESS TI tubing.


----------



## froze

darwinosx said:


> Not every Teledyne frame broke. Merlin claims to be the first 3/2.5 too btw. In any event its pretty obvious that whoever had the first, and I doubt it was Litespeed, its hardlya huge jump to go from pure titanium to the only commercially available source which was 3/2.5 from aircraft industry leftovers.


This is correct, Teledyn and Speedwell used commercially available TI that came from the aircraft industry which was 3/2.5.


----------



## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n

dongringo said:


> ... I for one very much look forward to seeing and hearing about your bike made in Mother Russia. If your experience goes well, I might be in the market for one. Can't beat that price. Please keep us informed.


not sure if there is a thread on this forum but ...
http://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-d...ium-frames-handmade-russia-anyone-583688.html


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> Teledyne Bicycle Guide 1
> Teledyne Titan main
> Origin Of The Species : Speedwell Titanium
> 
> I think your getting confused about seam vs seamless TI tubing, Merlin made the first SEAMLESS TI tubing.


I know you are confused, and I can't understand why. All you have to do is actually read the articles you posted (or any of the other material you refer to without actually reading about warranties, clear coats, etc):

Bicycle Guide, page 37, paragraph two:


> The Titans were built from commercially pure (CP) titanium, an alloy which is not as strong as the 3/2.5 (3 percent aluminum/2.5 percenty vanadium) blend used in many of today's titanium bikes.


Which contrasts with something you made up:


> This is correct, Teledyn and Speedwell used commercially available TI that came from the aircraft industry which was 3/2.5.


 The aircraft and other industries use CP, 3/2.5 and 6/4 in different applications, and CP was used for drawn tubing until 3/2.5 was developed.

Here's a place that still sells CP tubing:
Titanium 6AL-4V, CP Titanium, Titanium Sheet, Titanium Plate, Titanium Bar


You're welcome.


----------



## Trialtir USA

I would add De Rosa to your list. Doriano De Rosa builds these personally from scratch so you get his work when ordering a Ti 3.25 or Scattofisso frame. He offers 30 sizes plus full custom. Each detail of the production is not overlooked. He even spec's the head tube and bb cnc'd from single core blocks and uses mitered tube on tube construction that offers almost zero deviation in alignment when finished (check your other builders and you would be amazed at how much deviation is actually there sometimes due to where they start and finish welds).

When he gave lectures at NAHBS a couple of years back the room was packed with other builders trying to gain insight of his work so he has to be considered one of the best craftsman in the world at building Titanium frames.


----------



## laffeaux

froze said:


> Campy's Record 11 is made in China.


I don't think that Campy has anything produced in China do they? Originally everything was done in-house in Italy, and recently they expanded by opening a second factory in Romania.


----------



## Kontact

laffeaux said:


> I don't think that Campy has anything produced in China do they? Originally everything was done in-house in Italy, and recently they expanded by opening a second factory in Romania.


Campy is Italy and Romania, only. I have no idea where Froze gets his "information".


----------



## MarvinK

SeeTeeAkron said:


> ...
> You are one of the worst posters, one of the worst influences, on these boards.
> 
> Here's hoping your crappy little boutique goes out of business as soon as possible.


Do you own a Walmart or something? Based on both your reputation and number of posts in the past 5 years, someone may not haved realized you would be in a good position to judge who adds value to these boards. I'm sure these latest comments only add to that credibility.


----------



## froze

laffeaux said:


> I don't think that Campy has anything produced in China do they? Originally everything was done in-house in Italy, and recently they expanded by opening a second factory in Romania.


Campagnolo Record 11 Group Set - China Bicycles Part Component,Campagnolo Record 11 Group Set,Groupset in Bicycle Parts This site says the Record 11 is made by Chung Yung Cycle Co

A interview by the President of Campy he states this on this site: http://www.bike-eu.com/public/file/archive/20080220-bike_europe_interview_campagnolo2.pdf: 

"BE: Campagnolo is a Italian company; as more and more production is shifting to locations
with lower labour cost, can you imagine that your production or part of the production will
take place in Eastern Europe or even Asia? 
VC: I already told you something about our facility in Romania where we started with our 
first activities in 2005. At that time we rented a small building where we started to assemble
our components. Only a few months later we rented another building behind the first one. In
the spring of 2006 we started making carbon fiber components in Romania and in October 
2006 we moved into a completely new plant. We also shifted some production to Asia. 
Our entry-level Fulcrum wheels are made there not only because of costs, but also 
because of logistics. As they are also marketed on an OEM basis, part of the production is 
destined for bikes made in Asia. What we have done with regard to the shift of production
to low labour cost countries is to make use of the professional capabilities available in
these countries. For instance our tool shop is located here in Vicenza, managing and 
maintaining all our moulds".

Rumors! scan down to Fulcrum about 3/4ths down.

So I'm not sure where I get that made in China crap, I think I made it up as I go. Campy however does not make any where near the number of components in Asia as Shimano and Microshift; but as time goes on and Campy loses more and more market shares to lower price components they will be forced to move more and more of their production to Asia.


----------



## laffeaux

Interesting.... "We also shifted some production to Asia.
Our entry-level Fulcrum wheels are made there not only because of costs, but also
because of logistics."

They definitely have expanded beyond Europe. Thanks for the updated info.


----------



## Lookbiker

I ride with friends who have Lynskeys, Litespeeds, IF, and Sevens and for some reason an analysis of the welds has never be done. All the frames seem to hold up fine and getting to the top of the climb first always seems more important.


----------



## Kontact

duplicate


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> Campagnolo Record 11 Group Set - China Bicycles Part Component,Campagnolo Record 11 Group Set,Groupset in Bicycle Parts This site says the Record 11 is made by Chung Yung Cycle Co.


And you believed it?????

Take a good look at the picture of the "2011 Record Group" - does anyone think those are 2011 shifters?


I know a guy who just bought a "2009 Cervelo R3" from "the company that makes them for Cervelo". It doesn't look anything like a Cervelo, it is just painted like a Cervelo.

No brand name company, no matter what the Alibaba ad says, let's their stuff go out the back door of the factory. It is either stolen or fake.


----------



## tsidkenu84

*ti material*



Tequila Joe said:


> Litespeed 6A / 4V Ti welds.
> The rest of the bike is too dirty to photograph.
> 
> hows the ride differ bet 6A/4v Ti and the other 3.5 A (if i'm nt mistaken)


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> And you believed it?????
> 
> Take a good look at the picture of the "2011 Record Group" - does anyone think those are 2011 shifters?
> 
> 
> I know a guy who just bought a "2009 Cervelo R3" from "the company that makes them for Cervelo". It doesn't look anything like a Cervelo, it is just painted like a Cervelo.
> 
> No brand name company, no matter what the Alibaba ad says, let's their stuff go out the back door of the factory. It is either stolen or fake.



You don't have to believe that, then read the letter from the president of Campy...of course you probably think that's fake too.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> You don't have to believe that, then read the letter from the president of Campy...of course you probably think that's fake too.


Of course I believe Campy when they say that they make cheapie Fulcrum wheels in Asia. But Campy has never made a Campy anything outside of Europe. Fulcrum is not Campy, it is subsidiary company aimed at a different market than Campy. Campy is not about to offer a $250 wheelset with their name on it, that's why they created Fulcrum.


You seem to get funny ideas, then find the strangest non-references to back them up. You suggested that Record groups are made in China. Nothing could be further from the truth.

How many false things have you posted on this thread, which you stop talking about as soon as I post the correction? It is getting ridiculous.


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> Of course I believe Campy when they say that they make cheapie Fulcrum wheels in Asia. But Campy has never made a Campy anything outside of Europe. Fulcrum is not Campy, it is subsidiary company aimed at a different market than Campy. Campy is not about to offer a $250 wheelset with their name on it, that's why they created Fulcrum.
> 
> 
> You seem to get funny ideas, then find the strangest non-references to back them up. You suggested that Record groups are made in China. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> How many false things have you posted on this thread, which you stop talking about as soon as I post the correction? It is getting ridiculous.


I haven't reported anything false, you just fail to believe it. Italy does not have a carbon fiber industry, they send out all their CF bits and pieces to be made in Asia, Asia sends it back and it is put together into a part that was made in Italy or Romania, once that's done Campy labels it made in Italy or Romania because the final assembly was done there. Rumors 2004 Of course Campy is going tt keep this infor quiet; Campy keeps a lot of things quiet like their financials, try looking up their financials for 2011 or 2010.


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Kontact said:


> You seem to get funny ideas, then find the strangest non-references to back them up. You suggested that Record groups are made in China. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> How many false things have you posted on this thread, which you stop talking about as soon as I post the correction? It is getting ridiculous.


Kontact, it’s been my experience that you’re wasting your time trying to reason with Froze. No matter what factual info you provide there always seems to be another non-factual/borderline ridiculous comment coming. I find that his posts often prescribes to the adage that "facts shouldn't get in the way of a good story", it’s probably better for you to just drop the topic for your own sanity’s sake. Just a recommendation…


----------



## Kontact

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Kontact, it’s been my experience that you’re wasting your time trying to reason with Froze. No matter what factual info you provide there always seems to be another non-factual/borderline ridiculous comment coming. I find that his posts often prescribes to the adage that "facts shouldn't get in the way of a good story", it’s probably better for you to just drop the topic for your own sanity’s sake. Just a recommendation…


Fair enough. Thanks for the the heads up!


----------



## Ramjm_2000

tsidkenu84 said:


> Tequila Joe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Litespeed 6A / 4V Ti welds.
> The rest of the bike is too dirty to photograph.
> 
> hows the ride differ bet 6A/4v Ti and the other 3.5 A (if i'm nt mistaken)
> 
> 
> 
> 6/4 ti is denser (heavier)/stiffer than 3/2.5. My old 6/4 ti frame was stiff but lost a bit of that ti “feel” to it. Because of that most modern 6/4 frames actually are a blend of 6/4 and 3/2.5 (In fact I can’t think of a full Ti 6/4 bike being offered right now). IMO I think increased tubing diameter as well as new tube shaping techniques have pushed 3/2.5 to 6/4 levels of stiffness with less weight. Example would be Moots new RSL that I believe only uses a few 6/4 tubes (they discontinued their full 6/4 frame) and the Lynskey R440 that uses 6/4 tubes mixed with Helix (3/2.5) tubes.
Click to expand...


----------



## PlatyPius

Kontact said:


> No, this is re-posting what I said:
> 
> Not "road bike", not "Ti road bike", not "Ti bike", not "3/2.5 Ti bike". You have to read all of it. The first road bike made of 3/2.5 Ti was made by the Lynskey's and shown at a trade show in 1986 under the Litespeed name. Merlin followed with a road bike in '87.
> 
> 
> A warranty that voids if the decals come off is a mighty fussy warranty. But if you are buying a bike that you can trust, because it is sold by an importer who didn't pay for the Motobecane name and comes from a mystery factory in Taiwan, then I guess you won't need to find out if it is a good warranty or not.
> 
> These bikes aren't clear coated. What are your talking about?





Kontact said:


> I know you are confused, and I can't understand why. All you have to do is actually read the articles you posted (or any of the other material you refer to without actually reading about warranties, clear coats, etc):
> 
> Bicycle Guide, page 37, paragraph two:
> 
> 
> Which contrasts with something you made up:
> The aircraft and other industries use CP, 3/2.5 and 6/4 in different applications, and CP was used for drawn tubing until 3/2.5 was developed.
> 
> Here's a place that still sells CP tubing:
> Titanium 6AL-4V, CP Titanium, Titanium Sheet, Titanium Plate, Titanium Bar
> 
> 
> You're welcome.





Kontact said:


> And you believed it?????
> 
> Take a good look at the picture of the "2011 Record Group" - does anyone think those are 2011 shifters?
> 
> 
> I know a guy who just bought a "2009 Cervelo R3" from "the company that makes them for Cervelo". It doesn't look anything like a Cervelo, it is just painted like a Cervelo.
> 
> No brand name company, no matter what the Alibaba ad says, let's their stuff go out the back door of the factory. It is either stolen or fake.





Kontact said:


> Of course I believe Campy when they say that they make cheapie Fulcrum wheels in Asia. But Campy has never made a Campy anything outside of Europe. Fulcrum is not Campy, it is subsidiary company aimed at a different market than Campy. Campy is not about to offer a $250 wheelset with their name on it, that's why they created Fulcrum.
> 
> 
> You seem to get funny ideas, then find the strangest non-references to back them up. You suggested that Record groups are made in China. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> How many false things have you posted on this thread, which you stop talking about as soon as I post the correction? It is getting ridiculous.


I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Kontact....






froze said:


> I haven't reported anything false, you just fail to believe it. Italy does not have a carbon fiber industry, they send out all their CF bits and pieces to be made in Asia, Asia sends it back and it is put together into a part that was made in Italy or Romania, once that's done Campy labels it made in Italy or Romania because the final assembly was done there. Rumors 2004 Of course Campy is going tt keep this infor quiet; Campy keeps a lot of things quiet like their financials, try looking up their financials for 2011 or 2010.


Campy makes all carbon fiber IN-HOUSE. The parts are NOT made in Asia and sent back. You realize that Ferrari is in Italy, correct? You realize that they also make their own carbon fiber, right? Campy and Ferrari are reasonably small companies. They make their own carbon fiber. There doesn't need to be a "carbon fiber industry" in Italy.

From Campy's site:

"*6. Where are the Campagnolo components and wheels constructed? *
At our headquarters in Via della Chimica in Vicenza, you will find all the professionalism and expertise that Campagnolo puts into the production of our components. *Our Composite Materials Department, where the carbon fibre is processed*, along with our high tech Testing Unit, contribute to the formation of a company that distributes its products worldwide."

It has been generally known for YEARS that Campy makes their own carbon fiber....


----------



## Christopaul

Ti 6/4 is frequently used in the stays (chain, seat or both) because of its stiffness. LiteSpeed had a complete 6/4 Ti bike , (the ultra?) but discontinued it...many complained about uncontrolled shimmy at high speeds... this was probably due to being too light (plus the geometry) & unrelated to the material. Colnago made some bikes in the early 2000's made of 6/4 from a special ti purchase from the Russian military. While they are fast & stiff, they don't have the resilient feel of the 3.25 traditional ti. The Serotta Legend is very stiff & is made from 3.25 ti and doesn't have the usual springiness of other 3.25 bikes in their line up. Bike building is like cooking, its not just the ingredients but the blend and process. A novice cook and a master chef can have the same ingredients but the end products are worlds apart...


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Christopaul said:


> Ti 6/4 is frequently used in the stays (chain, seat or both) because of its stiffness. LiteSpeed had a complete 6/4 Ti bike , (the ultra?) but discontinued it...many complained about uncontrolled shimmy at high speeds... this was probably due to being too light (plus the geometry) & unrelated to the material. Colnago made some bikes in the early 2000's made of 6/4 from a special ti purchase from the Russian military. While they are fast & stiff, they don't have the resilient feel of the 3.25 traditional ti. The Serotta Legend is very stiff & is made from 3.25 ti and doesn't have the usual springiness of other 3.25 bikes in their line up. Bike building is like cooking, its not just the ingredients but the blend and process. A novice cook and a master chef can have the same ingredients but the end products are worlds apart...


I'm pretty sure it was the Vortex.


----------



## froze

So this website: Rumors 2004 is completely false that is quoting Bicycle Retailer and Industry News? This the site they quoted from: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News So both of these sites are false bicycling informational sites? Just wondering so I can stop filling my mind with useless information from highly recommended cycling news sources.


----------



## PlatyPius

froze said:


> So this website: Rumors 2004 is completely false that is quoting Bicycle Retailer and Industry News? This the site they quoted from: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News So both of these sites are false bicycling informational sites? Just wondering so I can stop filling my mind with useless information from highly recommended cycling news sources.


Yes. It is false.

From an interview with V. Campagnolo:

_Were you afraid Campagnolo might lose one of its top assets, that it is Italian, when it decided to export some production to Romania in 2006?_
VC: No, because everything that goes into the production of those products happens here in Vicenza. We develop the stamps and the quality control methods here and take them to Romania, where our Italians explain how to produce the part.


_What do they do there?_
VC: Two things: work with carbon-fibre and assemble all of our components. The carbon parts that are made there are only the ones where we have already established a stable quality level; otherwise, we produce it in Vicenza.


_Is this the modern reality of any Italian company?_
VC: Yes. The work done in Romania is manual labour that would be costly here. Making a carbon-fibre part requires less craftsmanship, but a lot of manual labour. And since the products are continually evolving, it is impossible to programme robots here to do the work.


_Does Campagnolo lose its ability to say it is ‘Made in Italy'?_
VC: What is done in Romania is first developed and fine-tuned here in Vicenza. So, all the know-how remains in Italy and it is secretive.


_Why Romania and *not China*?_
VC: Because Romania is not far from Italy, it is in the EU, its people speak a language similar to Italian... I think it has been a good decision.

Valentino Campagnolo: The Big Interview | Latest News | Cycling Weekly


----------



## froze

Then that's what I wanted to hear, that all those supposedly reliable cycling industry news sources were all wrong, thus there is nothing worth reading from them anymore. And now we all know that industry presidents of companies always tell the truth 100% of the time.

Thanks for clearing that all up for me. I stand corrected. End of my bantering of Campy, which by the way was NEVER intended to degrade Campy, personally I think their the best of the bicycle component manufactures on the planet...but I don't want to start a new war on that because it's just an opinion not a fact.


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> The Motobecane warranty, since you aren't familiar:
> _This warranty is void in its entirety by any modification of the frame, fork, *components*, removal of *decals* or any signs of bending/denting thereof._
> 
> _Warranty starts from the date of purchase, *applies only to the original owner*, cannot be transferred and does not apply to bicycles used by professional racers._
> 
> So if you aren't the first owner, have put in aftermarket jockey pulleys or removed the DT decals; no warranty.
> Motobecane USA | Warranty


Kontact; I contacted (no pun intended...well maybe!) anyway I contacted Bikes Direct in regards to their warranty. And you way overstepped your interpretation of the warranty which I eluded to that you had. You did so out of hate for a company that you don't respect due to low cost TI alternatives so you set out to berate them. 

This is what Jay, vice president of Motobecane said about the warranty: 

Thanks for your email

Changing wheels and other parts are fine
as long as the changed item does not harm the bike

Best regards

So in other words you can change any component any time you want as long as that component does not cause damage to the frame. This is true with any warranty on the market. If a bike company can determine that you caused the damage to a frame due to using an improper component on installation of said component they will void the warranty.

But I know your next statement to me will be, "I'm idiot and don't know what I'm talking about". Whatever dude.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> So this website: Rumors 2004 is completely false that is quoting Bicycle Retailer and Industry News? This the site they quoted from: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News So both of these sites are false bicycling informational sites? Just wondering so I can stop filling my mind with useless information from highly recommended cycling news sources.


You quoted a site called "rumors" that makes several broad statements not specific to Campagnolo and you do not have a link to the article in Bicycle retailer.

The press is fine, as long as you don't jump to unwarranted conclusions from generalizations. Most Italian bike companies are making their frames in Asia. That does not mean that Campagnolo falls under those generalizations or hints. 

Actually reading will assist you in your search for knowledge, rather than hunting around for vague confirmations to your preconceptions. That way you won't post 8 falsehoods in one thread.


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> You quoted a site called "rumors" that makes several broad statements not specific to Campagnolo and you do not have a link to the article in Bicycle retailer.
> 
> The press is fine, as long as you don't jump to unwarranted conclusions from generalizations. Most Italian bike companies are making their frames in Asia. That does not mean that Campagnolo falls under those generalizations or hints.
> 
> Actually reading will assist you in your search for knowledge, rather than hunting around for vague confirmations to your preconceptions. That way you won't post 8 falsehoods in one thread.


Actually I had plenty of evidence to back my claims, you all chose not to accept it, that's fine, I don't care. And then you go on with false attacks of your own against Motobecane's warranty provisions, which I consider to be the worst of the attacks, because at least I showed web sites to support my claims about Campy, you showed nothing about your out an out lies against Motobecane's warranty. And no place did I ever come against Campy for their products, I could care less where their made, or where any bit parts are made, and even you agreed Fulcrum, which is a Campy brand has their stuff made in Asia. So who here is the most wrong? Me that says Campy has some of their stuff made in Asia, or you that completely misled people about Motobecane's warranty so they would question the wisdom of purchasing a Motobecane?


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> Actually I had plenty of evidence to back my claims, you all chose not to accept it, that's fine, I don't care. And then you go on with false attacks of your own against Motobecane's warranty provisions, which I consider to be the worst of the attacks, because at least I showed web sites to support my claims about Campy, you showed nothing about your out an out lies against Motobecane's warranty. And no place did I ever come against Campy for their products, I could care less where their made, or where any bit parts are made, and even you agreed Fulcrum, which is a Campy brand has their stuff made in Asia. So who here is the most wrong? Me that says Campy has some of their stuff made in Asia, or you that completely misled people about Motobecane's warranty so they would question the wisdom of purchasing a Motobecane?


You said Motobecane's warranty transferred from the first owner to the next. Who are you saying is stating falsehoods?


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> You said Motobecane's warranty transferred from the first owner to the next. Who are you saying is stating falsehoods?


Ok, so do you agree then that we BOTH stated falsehoods? And who's falsehood was more damning towards Motobecane?


----------



## laffeaux

Do you guys think that you are being productive?


----------



## froze

laffeaux said:


> Do you guys think that you are being productive?


Not the least bit.


----------



## PlatyPius

Motobecane isn't even a real company, so I don't understand the need to be 'right'. Sure, there's a Motobecane website. It's owned by Bikes Direct - which also "owns" the trademark in the US and sources the bikes from Taiwan. Motobecanes are not available in the US from any supplier other than BD or its subsidiaries. As such, they are as much of a real brand as Sette is or Nashbar, which is not at all. Pick a frame from a catalog, call it good, and sell it to cheap-arses. No one will ever convince me that a Motobecane Ti frame is at all close in quality and ride to a Moots, Lynskey, Cyfac, or just about any other "real" brand.


----------



## Ramjm_2000

This thread has gone off the deep end (not that it was a good thread to begin with). Mods how about a mercy kill?


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> Ok, so do you agree then that we BOTH stated falsehoods? And who's falsehood was more damning towards Motobecane?


I didn't state any facts about Motobecane that isn't from their website. 

I did state my opinion that a warranty with such unusual language about components and decals sounds like a warranty designed to be refused, but that was pretty clearly an opinion of mine. You seem to be confusing defamation - the thing you did by stating that Campy Record is made in Asia - with simply not liking something, like how I feel about Motobecane's warranty.

Things that are not opinions:
Whether a warranty is transferable or not.
What a Teledyne is made out of.
Whether a Motobecane Ti is clearcoated or not.
Who made the first 3/2.5 road bike.
Whether 2011 Record is made by the Egg Fu Yung corporation.

These are all examples of factual data, and they have true or false answers. You have provided half the links to demonstrate that you are the one stating falsehoods, which is the most bizarre thing about your posting habits. Why not take a crack at reading the warranty or the article about Teledyne's before you say the opposite of what is true, effectively lying to everyone who reads your posts and slandering Campy or Litespeed?


----------



## MarvinK

Another link that talks more about Campy.. and their firm belief in keeping things in-house and out of China: Can Italian Component Maker Campagnolo Survive? | Bicycling Magazine


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> I didn't state any facts about Motobecane that isn't from their website.
> 
> I did state my opinion that a warranty with such unusual language about components and decals sounds like a warranty designed to be refused, but that was pretty clearly an opinion of mine. You seem to be confusing defamation - the thing you did by stating that Campy Record is made in Asia - with simply not liking something, like how I feel about Motobecane's warranty.
> 
> Things that are not opinions:
> Whether a warranty is transferable or not.
> What a Teledyne is made out of.
> Whether a Motobecane Ti is clearcoated or not.
> Who made the first 3/2.5 road bike.
> Whether 2011 Record is made by the Egg Fu Yung corporation.
> 
> These are all examples of factual data, and they have true or false answers. You have provided half the links to demonstrate that you are the one stating falsehoods, which is the most bizarre thing about your posting habits. Why not take a crack at reading the warranty or the article about Teledyne's before you say the opposite of what is true, effectively lying to everyone who reads your posts and slandering Campy or Litespeed?


I already proved you were mistaken about the TI stuff so did another poster. Teledyne made the first 3/2.5 from commercial aircraft ti. TI bikes, Merlin made the first seamless TI bikes, what's so difficult about that?

I still believe based on evidence that I seen that some of Campy bit parts and Fulcrum components are made in Asia and stated I don't really care where their made.

I proved you were wrong in your damning of Motebecane's warranty where you stated that their warranty was junk because it wouldn't cover if you replace any component not factory equipped.

And yet you continue to want to fight about STUPID stuff! I could care less if you were mistaken about who first made seam vs seamless ti...that was were your error was, but you tried to argue about who made the first TI bike. Again I don't really care because I and another poster proved it but all you had to do was accept the error.

As far as the Warranty being transferable or not was my error but it's not a damning as yours was.

And the Motobecane clear coat, my error? Maybe not; see: http://forums.mtbr.com/motobecane/moto-sticker-removal-methods-524365.html HOWEVER, there was another forum that thought they weren't clear coated! So you may be right...but you could be wrong, again one of those I don't really care if I'm wrong or if you are.

But these things seem to matter a lot to you, so lets just end this BS and declare you the winner so others don't have to read more of this senseless nonsense from either of us.

Deal?


----------



## minicoopal

Moots.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> I already proved you were mistaken about the TI stuff so did another poster. Teledyne made the first 3/2.5 from commercial aircraft ti. TI bikes, Merlin made the first seamless TI bikes, what's so difficult about that?


No, they didn't. I quoted the article to you already that says they were made of CP, not 3/2.5. Again, from the article:


> The Titans were built from commercially pure (CP) titanium, an alloy which is not as strong as the 3/2.5 (3 percent aluminum/2.5 percenty vanadium) blend used in many of today's titanium bikes.


How is it that I quoted right out of the link from Bicycle Guide for you, and there is still some sort of doubt? 

I was so put off by this first line in your post that I couldn't even stand to read the rest. Please explain why you keep insisting the Teledyne was 3/2.5 and not CP Ti. This is really insulting to me that you can't even read or remember something from the last 24 hours.

And I am not going to put up with your lying, so I am just going to keep hounding you until you either shut up or explain this stupidity. The sky is blue, no matter how many times you post.


----------



## drbenjamin

Wow. 9 pages of people who think they can tell a good weld from a bad one without cutting through it and looking under a microscope.


----------



## Kontact

drbenjamin said:


> Wow. 9 pages of people who think they can tell a good weld from a bad one without cutting through it and looking under a microscope.


That isn't what this thread is about at all. I don't recall a single post that supposed that the aesthetically pleasing welds discussed were indicative of their chemical composition. That's your own made up reading of this thread, not reality.

It is pretty much a given that all the companies discussed are producing competent welds. And you don't need a microscope to tell that's true - a reputation for not breaking is more convincing.


----------



## bon_gabs

atpjunkie said:


> if your moots is 2 years old,it may be the same welder as that Ericksen


Wrong guess my friend,,Eriksen left moots 2004,so this weld was not Chris Moore masterpiece anymore..Ive read different forums and google for a month in order to decide which Ti frame Im getting considering different aspects(timeframe,Price,testing,shop support) but only one Brand Won,,its the Vamoots..


----------



## Bill2

Good interview with Doriano De Rosa (use Google Translate):
Intervista a Doriano De Rosa | Bdc-forum.it | Bici da corsa


----------



## nsvelo

*LEMOND Custom Ti*

Lemond ti frames were made at Trek beautiful frames made with Reynolds tubing. Comfortable to ride and light with top welds.


----------



## pivo

*Van Nicholas Astraeus*

My Van Nicholas Astraeus brings all smiles to my face. Sweet looking, fantastic ride and the welds are super tight.


----------



## Bunyan

Pivo,

That's a beautiful Van Nicholas! What size is that frame? Or how big of a guy are you? That head tube looks long. Is that a custom built frame?


----------



## pivo

Bunyan said:


> Pivo,
> 
> That's a beautiful Van Nicholas! What size is that frame? Or how big of a guy are you? That head tube looks long. Is that a custom built frame?


Thanks heaps. I'm approx. 187cms/105kg. Yes, it's a custom frame - it uses a larger diameter tubing to support my mass. 21cm integrated head tube, a 59.6cm effective top tube and 59cm seat tube CTT.


----------



## Lookbiker

pivo said:


> My Van Nicholas Astraeus brings all smiles to my face. Sweet looking, fantastic ride and the welds are super tight.


Great looking bike. What kind of seatpost is that?


----------



## mtnbikerva1

The look of the welds is a piece of the puzzle but...
The whole frame and the person and or company that stands or does not stand behind the product is also very important.
The history of how a company and or person building the frames and or bikes in relation to failures or lack thereof and how they handle problems seems to me to be very important.
A written warranty is nice but ABG/new Litespeed or post Lynskey Litespeed seems to have proven customer service or lack thereof can be a big problem.
I have not seen or heard of Lynskey making faulty or poor frames.
I have not heard or seen Lynskey not stand behind his products. I would be will to accept proof otherwise.
I hope to buy a bike of such quality and weight, ride quality, durability, lack of hassle ownership, climbing, braking,sprinting, comfort... that I do not have to fight for a repair or replacement and I am very happy with the purchase for as long as I own it.


----------



## froze

When Lynskey was the head of the helm at Litespeed the product was good and they warrantied any frame with a problem without hassle to the consumer; but when ABG bought out Litespeed ABG started to make a inferior product with frame problems and then they wouldn't honor the warranty without getting an attorney involved, there was a poster here that had a huge issue with a Merlin that broke. Some years ago I saw a Litespeed that literally ripped about 5 inches which started at the water bottle boss, Litespeed honored it but ABG didn't own them yet, but last year when the that Merlin's rear stay/dropout broke at the weld ABG wouldn't do anything and I think it took 9 months and an attorney to get it fixed. And ABG is refusing to honor warranty issues from bikes made prior to them purchasing the company.

Now Lynskey has started his bicycle company and is back to making good products with a warranty he will honor should that ever be needed. 

In reality very few frames fail due to a warranty issues, most fail due to abuse which won't be covered by any warranty. But a new element of failure has popped up with the introduction of frames made in China, these do fail quite a bit due to manufacturing defect, but a Chinese owned company is not under the same scrutiny as Western manufactures are so there's no recourse a buyer can do to get any type of satisfaction. However if that Chinese made bike has a major brand name plastered on it like Trek, Motobecane and many many others then the company,Trek or whomever, will honor the warranty.

Motobecane is a Kinesis company with factories in Taiwan and China, I do know that the frames coming out of Taiwan, which includes all of their titanium bikes, are made way better then any TI frame coming out of China. That's because Taiwan embraces the western world ways of doing business, China does not. Thus you would never have an issue with Motobecane TI frames, and the proof is in the very high satisfaction rate of those bikes. 

Summary; if you want a nice inexpensively made titanium bike with real high reviews look no further then Motobecane, if you want to look at a higher level of TI don't bother with Habanero and just go straight to Lynskey.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> When Lynskey was the head of the helm at Litespeed the product was good and they warrantied any frame with a problem without hassle to the consumer; but when ABG bought out Litespeed ABG started to make a inferior product with frame problems and then they wouldn't honor the warranty without getting an attorney involved, there was a poster here that had a huge issue with a Merlin that broke. Some years ago I saw a Litespeed that literally ripped about 5 inches which started at the water bottle boss, Litespeed honored it but ABG didn't own them yet, but last year when the that Merlin's rear stay/dropout broke at the weld ABG wouldn't do anything and I think it took 9 months and an attorney to get it fixed. And ABG is refusing to honor warranty issues from bikes made prior to them purchasing the company.
> 
> Now Lynskey has started his bicycle company and is back to making good products with a warranty he will honor should that ever be needed.
> 
> In reality very few frames fail due to a warranty issues, most fail due to abuse which won't be covered by any warranty. But a new element of failure has popped up with the introduction of frames made in China, these do fail quite a bit due to manufacturing defect, but a Chinese owned company is not under the same scrutiny as Western manufactures are so there's no recourse a buyer can do to get any type of satisfaction. However if that Chinese made bike has a major brand name plastered on it like Trek, Motobecane and many many others then the company,Trek or whomever, will honor the warranty.
> 
> Motobecane is a Kinesis company with factories in Taiwan and China, I do know that the frames coming out of Taiwan, which includes all of their titanium bikes, are made way better then any TI frame coming out of China. That's because Taiwan embraces the western world ways of doing business, China does not. Thus you would never have an issue with Motobecane TI frames, and the proof is in the very high satisfaction rate of those bikes.
> 
> Summary; if you want a nice inexpensively made titanium bike with real high reviews look no further then Motobecane, if you want to look at a higher level of TI don't bother with Habanero and just go straight to Lynskey.


"Motobecane" is a re-copyrighted brand name owned by the guy who owns Bikesdirect. He has also re-copyrighted "Windsor", "Bottecchia", but those names have nothing to do with the old companies who let their US copyrights lapse. Bikesdirect imports bikes made by Kinesis and a several other companies with stickers with those names attached. Kinesis is just a supplier, like Shimano. 

Hab, BD, Trek are all US companies, so they warranty their foreign made stuff.


----------



## Ramjm_2000

Lookbiker said:


> Great looking bike. What kind of seatpost is that?


I'm guessing the Van Nichols Ti


----------



## Dajianshan

I'm pretty sure ORA is welding Motobecane. They have 30 years of experience with titanium and steels. They do a good job.... BUT... I know of a few weld failures from some Taiwanese brands. My friend has/had a titanium frame made by the good folks who make Van Nicholas and other bikes. His (frame X to avoid stalking by the owner of the brand) developed a 5mm crack in the HT weld. Not good.


----------



## Kontact

Dajianshan said:


> I'm pretty sure ORA is welding Motobecane. They have 30 years of experience with titanium and steels. They do a good job.... BUT... I know of a few weld failures from some Taiwanese brands. My friend has/had a titanium frame made by the good folks who make Van Nicholas and other bikes. His (frame X to avoid stalking by the owner of the brand) developed a 5mm crack in the HT weld. Not good.


I have heard similar tales about VN supplied Planet X Ti bikes.


----------



## rayovolks

Put a stake in this "best of" thread already.

Debating which brand has the "best welding" and "highest quality" is almost like debating which prawn star will get your rocks of most explosively. They'll all do the job to your utter satisfaction, and of course what floats your boat may not necessarily what gets the other guy excited.

I have enjoyed the photos of Ti bikes posted here though.


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> "Motobecane" is a re-copyrighted brand name owned by the guy who owns Bikesdirect. He has also re-copyrighted "Windsor", "Bottecchia", but those names have nothing to do with the old companies who let their US copyrights lapse. Bikesdirect imports bikes made by Kinesis and a several other companies with stickers with those names attached. Kinesis is just a supplier, like Shimano.
> 
> Hab, BD, Trek are all US companies, so they warranty their foreign made stuff.


that's right, and I eluded to that when I mentioned Kinesis, so what? it doesn't matter because they warranty their bikes like Hab, BD, Trek etc etc etc. You do an internet search and you won't find one case of any BD bike not being warrantied for workmanship defects within the specified warranty time period. Trek is pretty good with their warranty issues too. But the Habanero workmanship is not as good as the Motobecane because the MB comes out of Taiwan not China like the Hab, and Taiwan does better work on all the stuff they make.

I admit I'm a bit weird about certain things and one of those weird certain things is that I will NEVER buy a bicycle or a car (even smaller ticketed items if I can find a similar item made somewhere else) made in China. Their safety and quality control is spotty. I bought a GE Microwave and paid $100 more to get a model made in Singapore instead of the Chinese made one. I don't need a microwave oven bursting into flames, or simply only last 3 to 5 years, no thanks. I also won't give my money to a country that is making a military from our buying of their junk to take on one military and one alone...the USA's military. The time will come for showdown, just wait, it's coming sooner then you think.


----------



## Dajianshan

There are lots of good reasons not to buy Chinese stuff. Friends with factories that make some CF frames have horror stories. 

A lot of it has to do with the trouble in keeping a stable workforce. Lots of companies are having trouble staffing production lines. 

I have met several of the owners of Taiwanese production facilities and they are very approachable in regard to their production and QC. Lots of skilled welders.


----------



## Kontact

Dajianshan said:


> There are lots of good reasons not to buy Chinese stuff. Friends with factories that make some CF frames have horror stories.
> 
> A lot of it has to do with the trouble in keeping a stable workforce. Lots of companies are having trouble staffing production lines.
> 
> I have met several of the owners of Taiwanese production facilities and they are very approachable in regard to their production and QC. Lots of skilled welders.


Another reason is to avoid funding a totalitarian regime. There's lot's of free countries who are happy to make nice stuff for cheap.


----------



## Bill2

Kontact said:


> "Motobecane" is a re-copyrighted brand name owned by the guy who owns Bikesdirect. He has also re-copyrighted "Windsor", "Bottecchia", but those names have nothing to do with the old companies who let their US copyrights lapse. Bikesdirect imports bikes made by Kinesis and a several other companies with stickers with those names attached. Kinesis is just a supplier, like Shimano.
> 
> Hab, BD, Trek are all US companies, so they warranty their foreign made stuff.


Bottecchia Emme 2 is handmade by Sarto Antonio in Mellaredo di Pianiga, Venezia.


----------



## Kontact

Bill2 said:


> Bottecchia Emme 2 is handmade by Sarto Antonio in Mellaredo di Pianiga, Venezia.


Sure it is. But that isn't the company that has a *US* copyright to the name "Bottecchia". Please re-read my post.

There's no one in the US selling the Emme 2 because they can't without a royalty agreement with the BD guy. They'd be violating his copyright.


----------



## LAW.S.T

Ramjm_2000 said:


> This thread has gone off the deep end (not that it was a good thread to begin with). Mods how about a mercy kill?


I second this. this thread needs a reboot


----------



## Killick

european.dr said:


> Yes,I should go for Moots...nicer!


+1 for Moots


----------



## NealH

There may be one or two builders out there that can skillfully lay welds equal to what you find on a Moots, but none can do it better in my opinion. The Moots is just a superbly executed Ti bike.


----------



## dongringo

NealH said:


> There may be one or two builders out there that can skillfully lay welds equal to what you find on a Moots, but none can do it better in my opinion. The Moots is just a superbly executed Ti bike.


Kish

Jim Kish is the principle ti building instructor at UBI where Moots sends their guys to learn how to weld. Jim has taught many of the good ti welders out there.

I bought a Kish and the welds are superb.


----------



## froze

dongringo said:


> Kish
> 
> Jim Kish is the principle ti building instructor at UBI where Moots sends their guys to learn how to weld. Jim has taught many of the good ti welders out there.
> 
> I bought a Kish and the welds are superb.


Nice welds? Their pics of a road bike shows welds just so so; see: Kish Fabrication | Road Bike Gallery Look closely at the dropout welds. 

Here's a ridge in one of the puddles: Kish Fabrication | Road Bike Gallery

Here another rough puddle: Kish Fabrication | Road Bike Gallery

Here's a cheap Motobecane Ti weld: Le Champion Team Titanium (Dura Ace 7900)

Moto weld looks better at the drop out stay union: Le Champion Team Titanium (Dura Ace 7900)

Here's another angle: Le Champion Team Titanium (Dura Ace 7900)

Looks like all Kish did was smooth the welds was to shot peen them to make them look better, but their not any better, nor worse. Is the expense of shot peening worth $1,700 for a frame over a non shot peened frame? No. Is the custom build of a TI frame worht $1,7000 over a factory production? Maybe so if you have an odd body size that factory sizes can't compensate for. Buy a custom Ti for the custom build not for the welds.


----------



## ktc

Regarding the welds on Ti bikes, I've not seen every manufacturer's offering but am partial to Seven since I own one. The welds are just beautiful and the bike looks sexy from the rear with those beautifully curved tubes.


----------



## drdode

Hi, I just bought a 1994 Performance TR1000 Ti road bike. I haven't really heard of this brand on a bike but it had about a 100 miles on it with full dura ace components and seemed very solid to me. I'm having trouble trying to find out what company actually made this frame. Here are some pics, if anyone knows what frame manufacturer this is from just from looking at the welds, It would really help. Thanks!

View attachment 280401
View attachment 280402
View attachment 280403
View attachment 280404
View attachment 280405
View attachment 280406
View attachment 280407
View attachment 280407


----------



## Ramjm_2000

If I recall correctly they were made by TST (titanium sports technology).


----------



## drdode

That would be cool, I've heard a lot of good coming from TST so far on my research. Thanks



Ramjm_2000 said:


> If I recall correctly they were made by TST (titanium sports technology).


----------



## aroadbike4u

I'll vouch for the Praemio. The head tube on the stock version is a bit tall, and the BB drop is a tad lower, so I have to be careful about pedals touching pavement, but overall a great bike. But as others have mentioned, there is no shortage of great builders. I was at NAHBS last month, and pretty much all the examples I saw had flawless welds (mostly 2 pass). Decide which one moves your spirit, make some geometry choices and pick. Personally, the one that kind of impressed me at Denver was Mosaic. They're generating kind of a following in CO.




Ben01t said:


> Try GURU
> 
> http://www.gurubikes.com/enUS/main.php
> 
> Beautiful ti bikes, custom and available painted or not.


----------



## AndyMc2006

european.dr said:


> Which is the best welding & highest quality titanium frame?
> ...something smooth welding,perfect welding,high quality finishing titanium frame...
> Which one?Any suggestion?


The Moots are gorgeous but those pretty little welds can get boring to look at but I think equally important is making sure the bike fits you like a glove before you buy it. If I was gonna buy another Ti Bike I would look very hard at Carl Strong.


----------



## csbueno

*CRISP Ti.*

CRISP titanium ? English MAIN » CRISP titanium - English


Moots are lovely, but Crisp are incredible.


----------



## mcwall1064

There really is no "best" and there really is no empirical way, just emotion, to claim that any one top shelf frame is better than another. That said, I'm a little partial to DeSalvo. The craftsmanship is incredible, the price is very reasonable and he is genuinely a pleasure to work with.
Here's mine with over sized Ti tubes, PF30 bottom bracket, 44mm head tub, s-bend seat stays and painted panels by Spectrum Powderworks. I absolutely love it and would highly recommend Mike.

View attachment 285284

View attachment 285285


----------



## joep721

audibmi said:


> firefly (previously indy fab)


Amazing bikes and I'm surprised that no one else mentioned the boys from Boston. This is mine. American made with amazing weld lines. Go check their gallery.

View attachment 285290


----------



## eflayer2

*i love my crappy Carver Chinese ti road bike, even the welds*

Hope it does not fall apart and my teeth don't fall out.


----------



## a_avery007

my vote...
Untitled | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Erik Rolf at Alliance Frames....


----------



## Rickard Laufer

ROAD MASTERPIECES | ROAD


----------



## darwinosx

TWB8s said:


> Trek had a bank of about 10 welding stations set up for Ti in Waterloo. They took it all down about 2 years ago and allowed the employees to buy the equipment. One of the employees is a friend who brought one home and then called me to provide the proper electrical connection in his basement.
> 
> As for the original question...
> 
> The short list of companies that turn out lovely welds: Eriksen, Strong, Moots, Seven, Kellogg though there's more


Did Trek ever use them? The only it Trek I have seen was made by Litespeed.


----------



## mtor

veloduffer said:


> All titanium frames are welded the same and generally look the same when built. Some companies, like Moots, shot peen the finish and welds to smooth them. But you will get a high quality frame from any of the well known ti companies (Moots, Serotta, Lynskey, Seven). They have stock sizes and upcharge for custom. For about the same as the others stock price, you can go to a custom ti builder like Kish Bikes, Ericksen, etc. and get whatever you want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted my Kish cross bike here:
> New custom Kish titanium
> 
> I've owned (Litespeed, Merlin) and own several ti bikes (Kish, Serotta, Seven) and quite happy with all of them. The Litespeed and Merlin were stock, while the others are custom.


Thats a nice looking bike


----------



## froze

darwinosx said:


> Did Trek ever use them? The only it Trek I have seen was made by Litespeed.


that "Trek" ti bike was not a trek at all, it was simply a rebadged Litespeed and Trek never sold those, it was a one time bike for Lance Armstrong. The pro racing circuit does a lot of rebadging for commercial reasons. 

Lemond did have TI welding machines and were building ti bikes, so I guess when Lemond sold out to Trek all those TI machines became Trek's, but those machines were never Trek's nor did Trek ever have any ambition to make TI bikes nor did they.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> that "Trek" ti bike was not a trek at all, it was simply a rebadged Litespeed and Trek never sold those, it was a one time bike for Lance Armstrong. The pro racing circuit does a lot of rebadging for commercial reasons.
> 
> Lemond did have TI welding machines and were building ti bikes, so I guess when Lemond sold out to Trek all those TI machines became Trek's, but those machines were never Trek's nor did Trek ever have any ambition to make TI bikes nor did they.


Trek produced many Ti bikes for the Lemond line in Waterloo. All those "spine" bikes with carbon uppers and Ti lowers were made exclusively in Wisconsin.


----------



## skinnie

Dajianshan said:


> I'm pretty sure ORA is welding Motobecane. They have 30 years of experience with titanium and steels. They do a good job.... BUT... I know of a few weld failures from some Taiwanese brands. My friend has/had a titanium frame made by the good folks who make Van Nicholas and other bikes. His (frame X to avoid stalking by the owner of the brand) developed a 5mm crack in the HT weld. Not good.


They may not be the best welds, but they also produce Commençal Titanium frames and Genesis Frames:

A Very British Engineering Challenge Pt.3 - Who, what & how (...bloody much)? | Genesis Blog | Genesis Bikes

Here are pictures of Commençal frames:
Commençal Skin Titanium 26er



Usually a Commençal Titanium Hardtail frame retails for 1500-1999eur.
But they have their "outlet" and this skin was 699eur.
Of course there is a trade of, warranty, usually 5years, but on outlet items it depends, my skin is 2years.


----------



## Trek_5200

The question isn't whether a Motoecane weld will fail, it's doubtful it will. ORA is a legitimate outsourcing partner. It's also true that Motobecane is not incentivizing Ora to spend more time welding to make those beautiful weld patterns that owners of high end titanium frames rave about.

Motobecane is designed as a low cost option, so its not to be expected that the frame geometry will be optimized for each size. If you are in the market for a titanium road bike and plan on pushing the bike to its limit the motobecane will not be the right bike for you in the way that a seven , firefly or bedford will be.


----------



## froze

Trek_5200 said:


> The question isn't whether a Motoecane weld will fail, it's doubtful it will. ORA is a legitimate outsourcing partner. It's also true that Motobecane is not incentivizing Ora to spend more time welding to make those beautiful weld patterns that owners of high end titanium frames rave about.
> 
> Motobecane is designed as a low cost option, so its not to be expected that the frame geometry will be optimized for each size. If you are in the market for a titanium road bike and plan on pushing the bike to its limit the motobecane will not be the right bike for you in the way that a seven , firefly or bedford will be.


And yet the Motobecane TI bikes get rave reviews on Road Bike Review. There are non pros racing these bikes too, there was someone here that was racing a Motobecane TI cross bike a few years ago, and this site mentions others: CAMBr - Chicago Area Mountain Bikers And the Motobecane TI Fly Team bike is an award winning 29er.

While you can't get a custom sized bike from Motobecane but a huge percentage of bikes sold by LBS's are not either and yet some of those get raced. I use to race on a non custom bike, in fact my entire team, as well as other teams I knew then or later never used a custom sized bike; I can't imagine someone using a custom sized bike in amateur racing and then crashing it as so many do and destroying it, they better have deep pockets if they're going to race a custom made bike.

I have a friend that owns a Moto Team TI he got about 5 years ago and I've ridden quite a few times and I couldn't find any fault with it unless I got real picky then I could quibble over minor stuff that in no way would hinder it in anyway. I have another friend that has a Serotta TI bike too and I've ridden that one quite a bit all I can say about the two is that the Serotta is more comfortable probably due to the S shaped stays while the Moto was a bit more aggressive feeling, meaning if I could only chose one of those two to race on I would chose the Moto! But if I were going to ride a century I would chose the Serotta. I almost bought the Moto but when I went to pull the trigger they were out of stock and didn't get any again for almost 2 years so I got my Lynskey instead which feels more aggressive than the Moto. I think the Moto is the best deal for a TI bike and no one would be disappointed in buying one. Sure you can make some improvements on the Moto but you could make improvements on any bike you buy.

ORA makes other bikes too like Kona, Felt, TREK, and of course Gary Fisher.


----------



## Trek_5200

I know some people who owned the bike. Their opinion was its an ok bike, but it bike doesn't give you the confidence to push to the limits. Is it so hard to believe that an seven axiom slx costs more because its a better built bike?


----------



## froze

Trek_5200 said:


> I know some people who owned the bike. Their opinion was its an ok bike, but it bike doesn't give you the confidence to push to the limits. Is it so hard to believe that an seven axiom slx costs more because its a better built bike?


Which bike are you talking about?

If you're talking about the Motobecane TI bike that simply is not true, there are people racing those bikes in the non pro ranks, there are people that are riding those bikes up mountains, my friend hammers his all the time and in fact when we hammered both the Moto, Serotta, and my Lynskey we all felt the Lynsey seemed to be the best at limits but that neither of us would have known that if we haven't rode each others bikes which means that even a person that pushes bikes hard would never realize it. And the problem with the Moto and the Serotta "might" be the forks, the Serotta owner has no intentions at this time to replace his fork but the Moto owner has but I haven't rode it yet to see how it's doing though he claims a noticeable difference in the way it handles and tracks.


----------



## Trek_5200

well, i guess these opinions are all subjective.


----------



## Jay Strongbow

Trek_5200 said:


> well, i guess these opinions are all subjective.


No not really. The education, experience, resources (in house equipment) and history of results is pretty much objective.
And while I don't know much about welding myself I do coincidentally know a few people in the industry and they all say Seven as good as it gets when it comes to welding.

But if Froze wants to believe that Bikesdirect bikes are just as good as Seven, Moots ect. just let it go. I don't really understand what liking the performance of a friends bike has to do with a conversation about construction and weld quality but whatever.


----------



## mfdemicco

Meh... Do any of these companies have a welding qualification program? Do they have quality control on their parent materials and weld wire? Do they do weld inspection and non-destructive examination? Pretty on the outside tells nothing about fit up and internal weld defects.


----------



## froze

Jay Strongbow said:


> No not really. The education, experience, resources (in house equipment) and history of results is pretty much objective.
> And while I don't know much about welding myself I do coincidentally know a few people in the industry and they all say Seven as good as it gets when it comes to welding.
> 
> But if Froze wants to believe that Bikesdirect bikes are just as good as Seven, Moots ect. just let it go. I don't really understand what liking the performance of a friends bike has to do with a conversation about construction and weld quality but whatever.


Please quote the exact post where I said the Moto was just as good as a Seven, Moots, etc.


----------



## Jay Strongbow

froze said:


> Please quote the exact post where I said the Moto was just as good as a Seven, Moots, etc.


If that wasn't your point what was it?


----------



## froze

Jay Strongbow said:


> If that wasn't your point what was it?


you got the msg in your inbox


----------



## Jay Strongbow

froze said:


> No it was not, AGAIN show me the exact post where I said the Moto was just as good as a Seven, Moots, etc, if you can't do that then shut the falk up and quit making schit up.
> 
> Mods go ahead and ban me, I'm sick and tired and people saying I said stuff that I've never said to make me look like some sort of idiot. so ban away, but Jay Strongbow deserved the comment that I said and I will stand by it and take the ban.


I'm being sincere in asking you to tell us what your point was if it wasn't what I interpreted it to be. If you'd rather keep your point a mystery and swear at anyone who took it the way it looked then whatever.


----------



## Trek_5200

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm being sincere in asking you to tell us what your point was if it wasn't what I interpreted it to be. If you'd rather keep your point a mystery and swear at anyone who took it the way it looked then whatever.


I'm equally confused. It sounded like you were saying Moto was just as good as Seven, at least that's how I read it.


----------



## froze

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm being sincere in asking you to tell us what your point was if it wasn't what I interpreted it to be. If you'd rather keep your point a mystery and swear at anyone who took it the way it looked then whatever.


Dude, don't try to reverse this back on me, you made the statement that I said that a Moto was just as good as a Seven or a Moots, etc, for the last time show me where I said that, if you can't do that then shut up. Your point was to bring this all up was to make me look like an idiot, and that's the only point you have because you can't prove I said that and I'm calling you on it.


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## Jay Strongbow

froze said:


> Dude, don't try to reverse this back on me, you made the statement that I said that a Moto was just as good as a Seven or a Moots, etc, for the last time show me where I said that, if you can't do that then shut up. Your point was to bring this all up was to make me look like an idiot, and that's the only point you have because you can't prove I said that and I'm calling you on it.


um, okay.


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## froze

Jay Strongbow said:


> um, okay.


That's what I thought.


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## Mike T.

mfdemicco said:


> Meh... Do any of these companies have a welding qualification program? Do they have quality control on their parent materials and weld wire? Do they do weld inspection and non-destructive examination? Pretty on the outside tells nothing about fit up and internal weld defects.


^^^This^^^. This is an old thread and a silly question started it. Then lots of people trot out the name of their fave Ti frame when really, no-one has the credentials or ability to answer the original question.


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## Jay Strongbow

Mike T. said:


> ^^^This^^^. This is an old thread and a silly question started it. Then lots of people trot out the name of their fave Ti frame when really, no-one has the credentials or ability to answer the original question.


How do you know? I don't think it's that far fetched for someone to either know about welding or know some welders at some of these companies and know what specific training, apprenticeship and experience they have compared to other companies.


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## Lookbiker

In my decades of cycling, Ive never seen a weld fail. I know that it does happen but it is rare. Most high end ti bikes seem to hold up just fine.


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## Trek_5200

best weld is an aesthetics issue more than anything else, but it is important. when you spend that much on a bike you want it to look nice as well as perform well.


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## froze

Lookbiker said:


> In my decades of cycling, Ive never seen a weld fail. I know that it does happen but it is rare. Most high end ti bikes seem to hold up just fine.


One would hope so yet there are slew of pictures on the internet showing Moots frame failures and they're high end bikes; see: https://www.google.com/search?q=moo...-Z6ofLAhWJax4KHbmuBtsQsAQIKg&biw=1280&bih=620

Now before someone jumps on me again saying that I said Moots are junk, or I have some sort of vendetta against them, all bike manufactures will have failures, being budget or high end and you'll have failures and they're are pictures on the internet from all builders with frame failures. I can't believe I even have to explain myself but the mentality around here begs that I do so.


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## Lookbiker

Not saying that welds never fail but it is rare. That's all.


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## Hiro11

Trek_5200 said:


> I know some people who owned the bike. Their opinion was its an ok bike, but it bike doesn't give you the confidence to push to the limits. Is it so hard to believe that an seven axiom slx costs more because its a better built bike?


Have you ever seen a Moto Ti frame? I'll provide my opinions on this.

I rode on Saturday with a friend who has an unpainted Seven Axiom SL and another friend who rode a Lynskey Sportive Disc. I have a 3 year old Moto Ti that I bought as a frame alone and subsequently built up myself. 

I'd say the Seven has the nicest looking welds. The Moto and Lynskey were very close in weld aesthetics. The Seven also has beautifully shaped chainstays and fairly nice dropouts. The Moto's rear dropouts are about the equivalent of both the Seven and the Lynskey. The Axiom had a brushed finish that looked almost exactly like the Moto while I liked the Lynskey's matte media blasted finish a bit more. My (older version) Moto has by far the most aggressive tube shaping, with triangular down tubes and top tubes. Both the Seven and Lynskey feature more traditional tube shapes throughout.

The Seven costs about $4K, the Lynskey maybe $1.5K (on sale now) and my frame cost me $1K. The question of whether or not the Seven is worth the premium is of course subjective. Personally I can't justify the incremental expense, but that's me. I can't comment on the handling of the Seven but I will say that the Moto has good handling hurt by a somewhat floppy fork. The Moto's geometry is very traditional 73 parallel angles with a 405 chainstay. Unsurprisingly, this results in a very traditional feeling bike. I would probably replace the stock Moto fork if I were racing, but I'm not so I wont. The Moto is great as a club ride bike, which is what I do with it.

I do disagree that there's some sort of large tradeoff in quality by going with the Moto. I've been riding and racing bikes for decades and I really like how the frame rides. I've never heard evidence that the Moto frames fail more readily than other Ti frames. The importance to the buyer of fine gradations of aesthetic weld quality and are again subjective, but it's not as if the Moto looks like it was sloppily welded by amateurs. I've seen many Lynskeys and I'd say the Moto's welds aesthetically look about the same as a Lynskey. The Moto has external cabling, a threaded bottom bracket and a traditional 1 1/8 head tube, all of which I prefer. I'm not sure what else I should be worried about. Certainly others may have different priorities.


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## froze

Hiro11 said:


> Have you ever seen a Moto Ti frame? I'll provide my opinions on this.
> 
> I rode on Saturday with a friend who has an unpainted Seven Axiom SL and another friend who rode a Lynskey Sportive Disc. I have a 3 year old Moto Ti that I bought as a frame alone and subsequently built up myself.
> 
> I'd say the Seven has the nicest looking welds. The Moto and Lynskey were very close in weld aesthetics. The Seven also has beautifully shaped chainstays and fairly nice dropouts. The Moto's rear dropouts are about the equivalent of both the Seven and the Lynskey. The Axiom had a brushed finish that looked almost exactly like the Moto while I liked the Lynskey's matte media blasted finish a bit more. My (older version) Moto has by far the most aggressive tube shaping, with triangular down tubes and top tubes. Both the Seven and Lynskey feature more traditional tube shapes throughout.
> 
> The Seven costs about $4K, the Lynskey maybe $1.5K (on sale now) and my frame cost me $1K. The question of whether or not the Seven is worth the premium is of course subjective. Personally I can't justify the incremental expense, but that's me. I can't comment on the handling of the Seven but I will say that the Moto has good handling hurt by a somewhat floppy fork. The Moto's geometry is very traditional 73 parallel angles with a 405 chainstay. Unsurprisingly, this results in a very traditional feeling bike. I would probably replace the stock Moto fork if I were racing, but I'm not so I wont. The Moto is great as a club ride bike, which is what I do with it.
> 
> I do disagree that there's some sort of large tradeoff in quality by going with the Moto. I've been riding and racing bikes for decades and I really like how the frame rides. I've never heard evidence that the Moto frames fail more readily than other Ti frames. The importance to the buyer of fine gradations of aesthetic weld quality and are again subjective, but it's not as if the Moto looks like it was sloppily welded by amateurs. I've seen many Lynskeys and I'd say the Moto's welds aesthetically look about the same as a Lynskey. The Moto has external cabling, a threaded bottom bracket and a traditional 1 1/8 head tube, all of which I prefer. I'm not sure what else I should be worried about. Certainly others may have different priorities.


Thank you for another opinion, if you read mine earlier you shared the same sentiments though with me it was a Moto vs a Serotta, vs my Lynskey. In my case everyone liked the Lynskey the best for it's razor sharp handling (which may have something to do with the Enve 2.0 fork) and it had the most lively race type of feel, but they liked the Serotta for it's comfort, and the Moto was in between but the handling wasn't up to the same standards of the other 2 and especially mine. The owner of the Moto did this winter replace his stock fork with a Enve 2.0 which I haven't had a chance to ride it yet but he says it improved the handling a lot.

I agree too that I don't see a large trade off between the three that I mentioned, not even close to the almost $5,000 difference between the Moto and the Serotta, maybe $500 if comfort is your thing, nor is there (at the time I bought mine) a $1,000 difference between the Moto and my Lynskey, again maybe $500 if handling is your thing.

However with the Moto you do get Dura Ace components which I didn't get on the Lynskey but some stuff that Dura Ace has wears out faster like gears than the 105 stuff does. All in all the Moto is a great value, you get a nice TI frame that can be maybe majorly improved with a Enve 2.0 fork (not that most riders would even care!), and Dura Ace components if you go top of the line model, or save $1,000 and get the Ultegra model but then the wheels are degraded as well. And if you read all the reviews on the Moto TI bikes you'll discover that a huge percentage of the owners are very happy with them. No where will you get a titanium frame with Ultegra components for under $2,000...no where, and free shipping. Yeah customer service has a lot to be desired at Bikes Direct, but I found customer service issues at bike shops before too. It would be highly recommended that if you get a Moto TI bike is to assemble it yourself then don't ride it and take the bike to a LBS and have them go through it with a fine tooth comb, probably cost you somewhere between $30 to $75 tops.


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