# Zipps, Are They Worth It??



## Crazy Stu (Dec 17, 2010)

First time poster and keen cyclist. I have been offered a set of Zipp 404/ 808 tubular wheels for racing and i am a wee bit unsure of there suitability. Checking the forums and reviews I am torn about their reliabilty between bearings, spokes and overall quality from fellow posters. A quick brief about me, about 200lbs, ride a Pinarello Paris with Fulcrum Racing 1's and reasonably smooth but do produce a fair amount of power. Not sure if the overall weight increase of the Zipps will overcome the aero disadvantage between them and the Racing 1's, let alone the near industructable strength of Fulcrums. Plan on doing a few 100km races and full Ironman hence inquiry!! What do you think.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

There is an old saying: "Don't race what you can't replace"!

So the answer is yes, no and maybe. Zipp makes a lot of wheels but their failure rate seems high due to that number but the failure rate falls into the norm as a percentage. Everyone has failures. As of lately I have not heard of much failure issues with their latest models. Keep in mind you could destroy *any wheel* first ride hitting a pothole.


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

*404 Clinchers*

I have had my 404 clinchers for 2 seasons and could no be happier with them. I weigh a bit less than you (about 170Lbs) and these are my only wheels ( race and train on them). They have been flawless for me. I say go for it. And as the other poster said you are always one bad pot hole away from trashing any wheel.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

OP- If your going to be doing 100km + rides or Ironman, a wheelset in that depth range woudnt be a bad idea. Although before I say these are a good idea, would you mind describing your usual riding conditions? Do you have to deal with alot of crosswinds/gusts or are things pretty consistent? Additionally, on these longer rides will you be logging alot of vertical or simply sticking to the flats?


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## Crazy Stu (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks for the replys everyone  Perhaps I should of been a bit more explainative as well, Course is relatively flat with only a few minor hills and although in years gone past there have been a few sidewinds, it's been generally a direct steady headwind on the return course if anything.... another thought is, are the aerodynamics of a wheel like the Zipps or similar actually going to improve my times that much, considering that they weigh a ton more??? Guess it's a where do the benefits start outweighhing the cons... average speed I ride at now is approx 32km/h or so.... Cheers Stu


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## kleinboogie (Jan 31, 2011)

If you're talking mostly flat and head to crosswinds then aero is all that matters. Wheel weight only comes in on accelerations and climbing. I have 404 alums, 38mm and 88mm tubulars and they rule on the open road and crosswinds I get on the beach routes. However, in crits and climbing I prefer the 38mm or any lighter wheel. GL


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Crazy Stu said:


> are the aerodynamics of a wheel like the Zipps or similar actually going to improve my times that much, considering that they weigh a ton more???



Ahhh, the great debate. Now, first I will say you asking that question will causing another RBR bicker thread but I will give you my 2 cents. I will start it off by saying...

IN MY OPINION, you want to look for different characteristics depending on where/what/how you ride. For a longer, more sustained course, you may not have to worry about the weight of your rims as much. Since you are aiming to maintain speed for an extended period of time, going with a slightly heavier wheel may not have quite as big of an effect seeing as your maintaining speed (not accelerating). If you wanted to climb more, on the other hand, the aerodynamic effects would dimish somewhat and the effects of weight become much more noticeable. When you are coming into a short, steep grade, having a lighter rim will give you the "snappy" feel and make you feel much stronger (and even lighter) that before. A lighter rim will (usually) give you the impression of a more responsive wheelset which the mountain riders love. 
So when it all boils down to it, just remember this. Aerodynamics aren't everything, but neither is weight. If you become too focused on one, you will lose sight of the other and have detrimental effect because of it.


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

Crazy Stu said:


> Thanks for the replys everyone  Perhaps I should of been a bit more explainative as well, Course is relatively flat with only a few minor hills and although in years gone past there have been a few sidewinds, it's been generally a direct steady headwind on the return course if anything.... another thought is, are the aerodynamics of a wheel like the Zipps or similar actually going to improve my times that much, considering that they weigh a ton more??? Guess it's a where do the benefits start outweighhing the cons... average speed I ride at now is approx 32km/h or so.... Cheers Stu


At 200lbs, the difference in weight between the two wheelsets will have very little effect on the overall weight of rider + bike.

I must admit that I too get caught up in thinking that a light wheelset would make a difference, but then I read threads that actually try to do the math on this stuff and they show that there is very little benefit to a light wheel (reduced rotational mass). Look at post 57 on the following thread.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6394&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

The aero advantage of the Zipps could give you a benefit of a couple of seconds / km. It's really hard to 'feel' that kind of a difference, but you'd certainly notice it on the clock.


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## Crazy Stu (Dec 17, 2010)

Well lots of reading and thinking going on now but not too overwhelming... long story short is Lard Arse me needs to lose some weight!!! LOL... but that will happen with the planned training schedule of swimming, biking and running. Gonna bite the bullet and part with some hard earned cash but now in a another dilemma of how the dreaded running will kill of some of well earnt bike speed!!! But that's for another thread.. thanks to all so far


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## twigseattle (Sep 10, 2009)

At 18mph I thin kreliability means more than Aero.
If your current wheels have served you well, I think you should continue to race them, while perhaps you work some zipps into your training to see how they hold up.
I wouldnt wantto see you blow up on mile 36 on "new" (to you) wheels. The 5 second aero advantage over 86.4365miles may not be worth that.

On Ebay right now there is a Lightweight rear disc wheel for $1600. If theres no sidewinds Get that...


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

How old is the Zipp 404/808 combo? If the price is right having a 606 like this adds a lot of versatility to your wheel collection. You will quickly appreciate the aero advantage over the Fulcrums on these long events. Also the combo of aero and rotational mass of these wheels can be noticed immediately once you are up to cruising speeds.

You can even add a disc cover to the 808 for a full disc effect if needed.


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

Those are great wheels for racing only. Don't train with them. 

I say go for it.


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## Crazy Stu (Dec 17, 2010)

Wheels are the latest Zipp FireCrest offerings in 404/808 combination that I managed to obtain at a NZ Ironman deal. Definately train on the Racing 1's and use the new wheels for serious racing and Ironman. Prob use GP4000 Tubulars, had awesome run with the clinchers, but might get my bike mechanic to help me with the black art of gluing tyres on though!! LOL...


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

oops....


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

You would be a Crazy Mofo not to jump on a hot deal. I know a guy who just got a set of 404 FC for $1900. 

For racing my preference would be Vittoria CX tubes but nothing wrong with going w/ 4ks... they are better against flats.


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## Scott in MD (Jun 24, 2008)

Nobody who owns Zipps complains about the price of Zipps .... only the wannabe's complain. Zipps are damn fine wheels.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Scott in MD said:


> Nobody who owns Zipps complains about the price of Zipps .... only the wannabe's complain. Zipps are damn fine wheels.


When you've seen some broken or fail, you may change your mind. I'd just assume get something from a wheel builder and not have retail pricing built in.


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

spade2you said:


> When you've seen some broken or fail, you may change your mind. I'd just assume get something from a wheel builder and not have retail pricing built in.


What, the parts you get from a wheel builder don't have retail prices?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Scott in MD said:


> Nobody who owns Zipps complains about the price of Zipps .... only the wannabe's complain. Zipps are damn fine wheels.


 I will start this by saying, yes, there are alot of riders out there who swear by Zipp. They have been a progressive rim company for quite some time now which is enough to make people trust in their designs. 
But to say that the only people who don't like them simply desire them is completely untrue. Personally, if I were paying full retail for a wheelset, Zipps are easily the last choice on my list in the high end category. I have simply seen too many rims pull through to really trust their designs anymore. Additionally, there wheels definitely aren't the lightest things out there and for the price I think you could get much better bang for your buck elsewhere. The one thing that Zipps have going for them are the aerodynamics and bling.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

DiegoMontoya said:


> What, the parts you get from a wheel builder don't have retail prices?


I meant to say retail pricing of Zipps and the full sticker/retail of a brick and mortar store. When you find a wheel builder who keeps a low overhead, there's not nearly the markup.


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## european.dr (Nov 12, 2009)

Is that all their ZIPP carbon wheels are 100% Made in USA ? or...some factory in the Far East ?


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

Well, they have a major factory in Indiana. I don't know if they do production carbon layups there too.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/01/gallery/zipp-keeping-it-in-the-neighborhood_154336


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## DiegoMontoya (Apr 11, 2010)

From the article:



> Design, prototyping, product testing and manufacturing are all under one roof. Both SRAM and Zipp engineers work in house. Zipp manufactures all its carbon rims, wheels and cranks on site. Aluminum rims, extrusions, bars and stems are manufactured in Asia.


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## gospastic (Nov 8, 2008)

I am getting my first pair of Zipps soon, some 303s. I'm pretty stoked. I got a sweet sweet deal. I got them for less than a pair of handbuilt Al clinchers I got last year. I am putting some Veloflex Extremes on them. I can't wait!


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## CervS3 (Dec 23, 2011)

After seeing many people have cracked wheels I sold my 303s. I'm sure this is why team Cervelo went with Mavic wheels.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

CervS3 said:


> After seeing many people have cracked wheels I sold my 303s. I'm sure this is why team Cervelo went with Mavic wheels.


I'm equally sure the decision was entirely financial.

I would add that having read most of the live reports of the major races last year, I don't recall Garmin ever changing a wheel due to a failure.


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## MisterC (May 26, 2007)

CervS3 said:


> After seeing many people have cracked wheels I sold my 303s. I'm sure this is why team Cervelo went with Mavic wheels.


lulz...

My .02. So long as you already own a power meter, Zipp wheels are worth it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

CervS3 said:


> After seeing many people have cracked wheels I sold my 303s. I'm sure this is why team Cervelo went with Mavic wheels.


They went with Mavic because that's who paid them the best endorsement deal. 

Mavics aren't exactly known for reliability, either. Hell, I've broken a rear Cosmic Carbone Ultimate without crashing and I only weigh 120lbs.


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## wai11111 (Aug 21, 2011)

Zipps are awesome. You can shop around on E-bay and get a NEW pair of Zipp 404s tubulars, year 2010 for approx $1150. I would buy only NEW wheelset on E-bay, too many times I got wheelset with cracked rim or out of true. A used pair is around $900, pay the extra $200 and be worry free. If you got the cash, go with latest and greatest at $2700 but why? Like an Apple Iphone, always a better one will be out every 12 months. 
Once you get the Zipps up to speed, Fly baby Fly! Worth every cent, but I would go with year 2009 to current models. Much stronger rim for 200lbs rider and its build in the U.S.A.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

I have 404/808 combo and am 6'3"/190. I have clinchers with the aluminum braking surface.

The rear hub has given me trouble, I'm thinking about replacing it with a powertap hub. I don't like riding them on fast descents over 50mph with windy conditions. The zipp brand rim strips melted on me on a very hot day and caused a blowout. Some people think they are flexy, but I haven't found that to be so and I've had pretty good luck racing on them.


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

Peloton

This is what Peloton said about the Zipp 303 Firecrest

We’ve said it before, if we had to ride one wheel for the rest of our lives it would probably be the Zipp 303. It proved aerodynamics have a place in the cobbled classics and carbon can withstand the worst surfaces in the world. At 1183grams the 303 tubulars then proceeded to win in the high mountain passes of Le Tour. If that wasn’t enough, they nabbed cross win after cross win that winter. All on the same wheel… ridiculous.


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## lee16 (Aug 21, 2010)

I hated my tubular 303s. The glue would get loose around the air valve and make a popping noise when I rode. Also the latex inner tubes inside my Vittoria tires couldnt hold air for more than a day. Those wheels were like a high maintenance woman. :mad2:


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

I have a pair of 404s and love them. I use the, for time trials, road races (even the hilly ones) and crits. 

There is a belief that aero wheels are slower in most races outside of time trials. Our minds and "feelings" confirm this, but science states otherwise. The aerodynamic properties usually trump the weight differences.


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## jhanleybrown (Jan 10, 2012)

*404s or something else*

I posted on another thread the same question but this seems to be a wheel oriented thread. I'm also a triathlete. Reasonably competitive amateur so 60 sec means a lot to me. 

I've considered going 404 but at a little less than $2k, haven't gone there. I'm racing on Mavic Cosmic Carbone SLs which are a little heavier as the rim is part carbon part aluminum. Bladed spokes though. These cost < $1k for the set and I got a deal on them as part of a bike purchase (<$800).

OK. So, here's the question:
1) Option 1: Stay. Wheelset good enough.
2) Option 2: Go for it! 404s!! (Downside = marital strife)
3) Option 3: Compromise. Pick up a set of Reynolds DV3k Carbon (clinchers or tubular) which seem to have great reviews and are on sale as 1/12.

What I use these for:Racing tris. I focus on Olympic so that's a 40k time trial bike. I tend to like flat course best and some rolling but I avoid "racing" real hills as I'm a better flat/non technical racer on the bike. Sometimes there are cross winds. I'm about 175k at racing weight. So, not small but not that big either.

Thanks for advice.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

I would consider buying used wheels like a front 808 and disc rear combo for your tris. I was able to get them for around $1300. If you are worried about cross winds at your weight then get 808 front and rear but don't wuss out at your weight .You can handle the 808s. I am your size and raced a very windy Olympic on 808s. I hear that 404 firecrests are as aero as prior generation 808s so that may not be so bad either.


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## Scott in MD (Jun 24, 2008)

Your deep Mavics are absolutely, positively everything you need. Run them into the ground then upgrade when the next new thing is out five years from now. (I am a reasonable competitive 175 pound age grouper on DV3Ks ... if I thought new Zipps would make me faster I'd get them ... get a Computrainer ... that will make you faster.)


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## jhanleybrown (Jan 10, 2012)

@scott md: funny but ive now been talked out of a wheel set upgrade. But a week ago some training buddies (real not virtual) taljed me out of a computrainer! Im on plain old fluid but I do structure trainer rides mostly from Chris Carmichael's book time constrained cyclist.


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## Scott in MD (Jun 24, 2008)

We're probably similar racers ... I'm trying to balance life and racing and move from FOMOP to FOP ... I can Q for AGNC at a special qualifier (but not a a top 10% race) and lotteried in to Xterra World Championship this year ..... I dont have a CT but have used one ... everyone I know who uses one and/or trains on one tells me " I wish I'd started this earlier" . Me,I think I'll benefit most from more riding than my current 2000 miles per year. That's my focus this year. Maybe try a CT class first ..... but you sort of sound like you have two grand burning a hole in your wallet


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## jhanleybrown (Jan 10, 2012)

Aren't I saving money by splurging on bike gear if it's on sale? (Oh wait, that's government math.)

Think what I will do is set training and weight goals, make them pretty hard and if I hit them - then and only then splurge on 404s.

I'm a 2:17 (40-45 AG) Oly guy on a standard but flatish course but sure would like to go sub 2:16. Occasionaly I'll win a race as long as the really fast guys don't show up and I get a little lucky.

If you are a time-constrained guy - really, really recommend Chris Carmichael's book The Time Constrained Cyclist.


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