# Who belongs in the Canon of most obvious doped performance?



## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

What was the most egregious win that was achieved by an obviously doped rider? To keep the trolls from flaming us for spreading unsubstantiated rumors, lets stick with riders who were actually busted (not in court of public opinion but by governing body etc.) Here's a start along with my favorite first.


1) Stephan "huge head" Schumacher crushing the World Champion in 2 time trials in 2008 TDF
2) Basso rides away from field on multiple climbs in 2006 Giro wining by almost 10 min
3) Vino Stage win in 2007 TDF after collapse
4) Floyd's miracle win after collapse in 2006 (although we know the testosterone didn't make him win)
5) Tyler Hamilton's Olympic gold (technically he was busted for tests at Vuelta, but we'll count it)
6) Kohl's magical mountaintop stage wins in 2008 TDF


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Basso, even Simoni called him out immediately and there was a Pharmstong esque aura of inevevitability around the ET.

Had to get don of all dopers in there somehow.....


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Bjarne Riis on Hautacam in 1996:


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Dang, I forgot about that one Nice work on the youtube embed!*

That qualifies as he confessed! How on earth did he not test positive all those times?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

For me, it was the too obvious Basso in 2006 Giro, probably because most everyone else had put the brakes on to some degree and he kept going full-bore.

An equally interesting thought exercise is did anyone clean win anything of note between '95 and '05?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

SilasCL said:


> Bjarne Riis on Hautacam in 1996:


But how could that standout as a doped performance when by then everyone else was no doubt doped to the gills too with EPO?

If going to go old school, I'd say Berzin at '94 Giro.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Riis has to be the MVP; getting called Mr. 60% _openly_- ouch. 

Pantani has to be up there as well.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> But how could that standout as a doped performance when by then everyone else was no doubt doped to the gills too with EPO?
> 
> If going to go old school, I'd say Berzin at '94 Giro.


Because he is sprinting away from them like Cipollini.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> But how could that standout as a doped performance when by then everyone else was no doubt doped to the gills too with EPO?
> 
> If going to go old school, I'd say Berzin at '94 Giro.


the entire spring season of 1994 takes it for me. I was living in Italy and remember clearly wondering how is it the same guys are at the front of *every* race. Berzin was the most obvious example but there were plenty of others who all of a sudden got crazy fast.

My Swiss roommate/teammate filled me in (He was a user and dealer) with the reality of the game. I don't think I rode a bike for 3 years after that.


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## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

What about Ricco and Piepiolli from last years Tour? Ricco was flying up those climbs.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Basso's 2006 Giro cakewalk takes the cake, as far as I'm concerned. He just seemed so blase as he whipped past everybody on those climbs. He never seemed to break a sweat.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

armstrong on the hautacam in 2000, even pantani was shaking his head


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*man up!*



bigpinkt said:


> My Swiss roommate/teammate filled me in (He was a user and dealer) with the reality of the game. I don't think I rode a bike for 3 years after that.


you're just confirming you're a mentally weak loser. :lol: :lol: 

In all seriousness, this kind of thing just shows how the dopers and their apologists have ruined it for everyone, unless you're a completely subservient chamois sniffing parasite, I mean person.

3 years! That's awful....You sound like Dave Stohler when he broke down to his father.

Sorry to hear that.

Although it probably didn't seem like it at the time, it's better to have your heart broken than to break someone else's heart.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> For me, it was the too obvious Basso in 2006 Giro, probably because most everyone else had put the brakes on to some degree and he kept going full-bore.
> 
> An equally interesting thought exercise is did anyone clean win anything of note between '95 and '05?


Boardman won the Bronze in the Atlanta ITT.:lol:


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> For me, it was the too obvious Basso in 2006 Giro, probably because most everyone else had put the brakes on to some degree and he kept going full-bore.
> 
> An equally interesting thought exercise is did anyone clean win anything of note between '95 and '05?


Besides Boardman's wins, all of David Moncoutie's wins. There aren't many obvious examples that spring to mind.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*damn, ricco, that's another one I forgot....*



danielc said:


> What about Ricco and Piepiolli from last years Tour? Ricco was flying up those climbs.


He has to be in top 10 in modern era for those that were caught Piepoli was bad too but since he had a high mt pedigree in the past and had always had good results in mts it didn't stick out like sore thumb - the way the others on the list did.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

The rules are unfair as they prevent this thread from ending up where a large majority of threads in the doping forum end up going. I'm officially protesting. Who do I protest to?

Recent obvious doping the award has to go to Ricco and Piepoli
Basso in the Giro has to be up there.

Old school doping - Riis' TT bike toss (stage 20, 1997 tour), you can't throw a TT bike that far without being juiced.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

lookrider said:


> you're just confirming you're a mentally weak loser. :lol: :lol:
> 
> In all seriousness, this kind of thing just shows how the dopers and their apologists have ruined it for everyone, unless you're a completely subservient chamois sniffing parasite, I mean person.
> 
> ...


While it certainly was a reality check the bigger influence was that I was completely burned out. For many reasons it was not fun anymore, training, not making any money, and sucking.... especially the sucking.

Funny, there I was living in Italy with some of the greatest riding in the world and I did not want to touch my bike. Just wanted to eat pork and drink wine. Luckily I have gone back many times since, with my bike.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Old_school_nik said:


> What was the most egregious win that was achieved by an obviously doped rider? To keep the trolls from flaming us for spreading unsubstantiated rumors, lets stick with riders who were actually busted (not in court of public opinion but by governing body etc.) Here's a start along with my favorite first.
> 
> 
> 1) Stephan "huge head" Schumacher crushing the World Champion in 2 time trials in 2008 TDF
> ...


Basso should not be on your list because he only "intended to dope" for TdF 2006. Furthermore Johann "the hog" looked him "straight in the eye" and Basso assured him that he had nothing to worry about.

But seriously, my vote would go with the "Ultimate Warrior" meeting "Hulk Hogan" during some old Wrestlemania from the 90's.
Check this video out. Funny stuff indeed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkEl_R0dTfY


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Heinrick Hausler for the last three months.
Boonen made a comment the other day that he will have to keep an eye on him in PR, and that he was surprised that his "peak" has lasted as long as it has.
Ricco and Schumi last year were both over the top with the obvious PED use.
Contador for the last two years.
Valverde for the last 8.


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## jaan_k (Apr 28, 2007)

*this one was obvious to me...you may not think so*

How about Pantani only losing 2:35 to Ullrich in the final time trial of the 1998 Tour de France (from Montceau-les-Mines to Le Creusot)??? Many other good time trialists finished much further behind Ulle. I remember shaking my head in disbelief and commenting to my German buddy, "What is he on?!!"  

look at the results:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/stage20.html


--Jaan K.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)




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## jaan_k (Apr 28, 2007)

*oh yeah, Sella......*

I was in Italy watching it on T.V. Even the commentators blurted out the fact that he seemed as if he's doped. (kinda wish Phil and Paul would be that brutally honest)


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

Good thread.
So many of Pantani's rides, am always supicious of cyclists who climb mountains on the drops. The Les Deux Alpes stage of 1998 springs to mind though as does the Madonna di Campaglio stage of the 1999 Giro.
For Ullrich the stage into Andorra in the 1997 Tour.
For Lance - Sestriere in 1999, Alpe d'Heuz 2001 - most of his time trials. 
Vino's Albi time trial.
Sella was just as farce.
Contador and Rasmussen on the Peyresourde.
And one of my personal favourites - the Mapei 1-2-3 in Flanders 1996. Museeuw.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

jaan_k said:


> How about Pantani only losing 2:35 to Ullrich in the final time trial of the 1998 Tour de France (from Montceau-les-Mines to Le Creusot)??? Many other good time trialists finished much further behind Ulle. I remember shaking my head in disbelief and commenting to my German buddy, "What is he on?!!"
> 
> look at the results:
> 
> ...


Man, I'm tired of Pantani's TT results being trotted out as evidence of doping. He was doped to the gills with Carrera in 1993 when his TT results were appallingly bad, and doped to the gills when they were sometimes top 10. That pretty much rules out doping as the cause of the improvement. His TT position did get a lot better though and for a narrow climber it's possible to have extremely low drag numbers. Motivation was another factor since the 2 best ones he rode won him the Giro and Tour and in both cases he had ridden bad ones earlier in the race.

Mr 60% Bjarne in fact never tested very near 60 percent in all the results that came out in italian court cases. But it's a great nickname.

I think Piepoli was more notable than Ricco. Ricco was a young new talent so who knows - maybe a lot of it was talent. Leonardo had been around for a decade always in the front 3rd on the climbs but never stellar and then at the end of his career is suddenly winning stages against top quality fields??? No way.


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## serbski (Dec 2, 2002)

Iban Mayo in '03 (Dauphine) - He had Armstrong fuming then and LA still disparages him in interviews fwiw...


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## WeakMite (Feb 20, 2005)

bigpinkt said:


> ... I don't think I rode a bike for 3 years after that.


Now that's drama.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*If we speculating- how about the most obvious*

Lemond = so many "interesting" performances/teammates/friends busted for doping. Don't believe the myth. . . Come on fan boys, be honest- do you think everyone else doped- but your fan boy idol? Plus he sure was chummy with other dopers. Don't just play the game with riders you don't like. 

IMHO, his character shows nothing is off the table ethics wise. He was an innovator all right. . .


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*The biggest fraud*



Coolhand said:


> Lemond = so many "interesting" performances/teammates/friends busted for doping. Don't believe the myth. . . Come on fan boys, be honest- do you think everyone else doped- but your fan boy idol? Plus he sure was chummy with other dopers. Don't just play the game with riders you don't like.
> 
> IMHO, his character shows nothing is off the table ethics wise. He was an innovator all right. . .


$2.5 million abuse of the Employee Purchase Program (see item 16&17&18&19&20)- his "character" always comes through:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2472821/Trek-Bikes-lawsuit-vs-cyclist-Greg-Lemond

The miracle is the testing wasn't very good and he rode before Festina killed off the organized French team doping. Call him Vino .5-- Same guy, different eras.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Belgian Knees Warmers on Lemond:



> LeMond’s accomplishments as a racer should have been the sole basis for his reputation. It should be all we need to know of the man. Trek, for its part, should have found having two American Tour de France winners on its payroll to be an enviable position, not a nightmare replete with lawyers. Sadly, given LeMond’s history of business relationships, it is unlikely the brand will ever find another home and these lawsuits will mark the end of an era. R.I.P.


From teammates, to team leaders, to the entire peloton, to his business partners, solve for X, what is the consistent factor every time= Greg Lemond.


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## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

Oh no you dih-ighnt Coolhand!


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## parker3375 (May 6, 2008)

You beat me to Sella. Man, I was watching the Giro on Dvd today and it is insane how obvious it was. But I have one that you all have yet to mention...Rasmussen. Anyone else remember how easily in stage 17 (or 18) of the '07 tour he dropped Contador and Levi after the whole damn Disco team had blasted him?!


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> $2.5 million abuse of the Employee Purchase Program (see item 16&17&18&19&20)- his "character" always comes through:
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2472821/Trek-Bikes-lawsuit-vs-cyclist-Greg-Lemond
> 
> .


Hey could you go into more detail on the employee purchase program. Not American so not sure what it entails and how Greg transgressed.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Digger28 said:


> Hey could you go into more detail on the employee purchase program. Not American so not sure what it entails and how Greg transgressed.


There is no more detail on the Employee purchase abuse as it was nothing more then an attempt by Trek to slime Lemond. So far they have not been able to support anything remotely close to that number....but it appears some suckers took a Trek press release as fact.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> Belgian Knees Warmers on Lemond:
> 
> 
> 
> From teammates, to team leaders, to the entire peloton, to his business partners, solve for X, what is the consistent factor every time= Greg Lemond.


Do you have any idea who BKW is written by? Do you know who Radio Freddy is? 

BKW has as much creditability as a Livestrong blog.


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> There is no more detail on the Employee purchase abuse as it was nothing more then an attempt by Trek to slime Lemond. So far they have not been able to support anything remotely close to that number....but it appears some suckers took a Trek press release as fact.


Cheers Bigpinkt for clearing that up. Is Lemond still not in the middle of his own lawsuit against Trek though?

Great ride for our own Phillip Deignan in the Castilla Leon.:thumbsup: Lovely guy also.


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> Lemond = so many "interesting" performances/teammates/friends busted for doping. Don't believe the myth. . . Come on fan boys, be honest- do you think everyone else doped- but your fan boy idol? Plus he sure was chummy with other dopers. Don't just play the game with riders you don't like.
> 
> IMHO, his character shows nothing is off the table ethics wise. He was an innovator all right. . .


Firstly you know as well as I do that there is no circumstantial evidence whatsoever to link Lemond to doping. Over 20 years have passed and all we have is an iron shot, the 'fastest' TT (untrue by the way), and some of his team mates being linked. On the other hand we have the most fervent anti-doping journalists in the sport acknowledging that he was the last clean winner, as well as numeous cyclists, DSs and Massuers of that era. Lance threatened him with finding ten people showing he used EPO, and not even one person has he found. 

Your final point in relation to his character - why don't you just have a pop at him about his drinking if that's the level you want to stoop to. As a Lance fan, you're on very thin ground though when you're bringing character into the equation. Also in relation to his ongoing 'disputes', one would have thought that you would've seen was invariably on the other side. When a person stands up against a bully, people tend call that courage here in Ireland.


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

parker3375 said:


> You beat me to Sella. Man, I was watching the Giro on Dvd today and it is insane how obvious it was. But I have one that you all have yet to mention...Rasmussen. Anyone else remember how easily in stage 17 (or 18) of the '07 tour he dropped Contador and Levi after the whole damn Disco team had blasted him?!


Ras has my vote. He pulled way from Levi and Contador after being tagged teamed. During the interviews at the summit, Levi and Contador were totally spent. Ras' composure reflected a guy that just finished a Saturday morning club ride.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Lemond = so many "interesting" performances/teammates/friends busted for doping. Don't believe the myth. . . Come on fan boys, be honest- do you think everyone else doped- but your fan boy idol? Plus he sure was chummy with other dopers. Don't just play the game with riders you don't like.
> 
> IMHO, his character shows nothing is off the table ethics wise. He was an innovator all right. . .


from the OP "To keep the trolls from flaming us for spreading unsubstantiated rumors, lets stick with riders who were actually busted (not in court of public opinion but by governing body etc.)"
One would think a moderator could stay within the lines.


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## serbski (Dec 2, 2002)

den bakker said:


> from the OP "To keep the trolls from flaming us for spreading unsubstantiated rumors, lets stick with riders who were actually busted (not in court of public opinion but by governing body etc.)"
> One would think a moderator could stay within the lines.


Good point. The initial post suggests that one avoid speculation and I dare say that the "L Word" was very rarely mentioned in subsequent posts... So LeMond clearly got thrown in here, to quote Paul Sherwin, simply "to throw a cat amongst the pigeons"...


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

If you watch the end of most road races, you'll notice that the winner looks in much better condition than the other guys, your composure changes after winning. You'll look a lot worse if you're feeling down for losing.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

can't believe the ALL-TIME doped performance hasn't been mentioned yet: Rominger's 1994 hour record; averaged 468 watts, or 7.2 watts/kg - for the hour. Ferrari says it best on his website: "How is it possible that Tony Rominger beat Miguel Indurain by more than 2 km?" 

As far as I know, that's the highest recorded watts/kg for an hour attempt (it beats Indurain's by over 1 watt/kg).


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Lemond = so many "interesting" performances/teammates/friends busted for doping. Don't believe the myth. . . Come on fan boys, be honest- do you think everyone else doped- but your fan boy idol? Plus he sure was chummy with other dopers. Don't just play the game with riders you don't like.
> 
> IMHO, his character shows nothing is off the table ethics wise. He was an innovator all right. . .


So lame in the context of this thread. Try harder next time.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*That's an interesting tidbit.. that is an insane wattage*



stevesbike said:


> can't believe the ALL-TIME doped performance hasn't been mentioned yet: Rominger's 1994 hour record; averaged 468 watts, or 7.2 watts/kg - for the hour. Ferrari says it best on his website: "How is it possible that Tony Rominger beat Miguel Indurain by more than 2 km?"
> 
> As far as I know, that's the highest recorded watts/kg for an hour attempt (it beats Indurain's by over 1 watt/kg).


That's an interesting tidbit.. that is an insane wattage, 7.2!!! For an hour HS!. One day a few years ago I was bored and calculated out a bunch of the Hour Record attempts and all of them came out pretty incredible watts/Kilo wise.

RE: Lemond - he had so many bad days in his tours and never ever just rode away from anyone like they were in a different class - the 89 ITT was the closest but also use the aero bars (standard now) and was the strongest guy in the race by the end... to me, the circumstantial evidence against him compared to any other rider mentioned on this post is thin. I mean compared to LA where about a dozen of his current and former teammates have benn busted or admitted that they did EPO - and I don't know about Lemond's teammate during his heyday (Baur, Hamsten < Jean Franciouse Bernard, etc..) Especially when he had such a hard time getting any kind of results up at the beginning of the EPO era.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

den bakker said:


> from the OP "To keep the trolls from flaming us for spreading unsubstantiated rumors, lets stick with riders who were actually busted (not in court of public opinion but by governing body etc.)"
> One would think a moderator could stay within the lines.


This is the same mod who accuses me of hijacking threads, but provides no evidence and locks threads so nobody can respond. Some would call that petty, or hypocritical. 

This thread is about "most obvious doped performance", what does the Trek Lawsuit or the opinion of an unemployed soigner have to do with that subject? 

.....Only another attempted hijack to satisfy someones Lemond obsession.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Digger28 said:


> Cheers Bigpinkt for clearing that up. Is Lemond still not in the middle of his own lawsuit against Trek though?
> 
> Great ride for our own Phillip Deignan in the Castilla Leon.:thumbsup: Lovely guy also.



Um, fail. The link went to the court filing, not a press release. Face it, he was dirty on and off the bike. His life is a never ending set of betrayals and lawsuits, with Greg being the only constant factor. No amount of wishful thinking will change the sort of person he is. I wonder if he helped Frankie Andreu dope too.

All the _doped to the gills_ signs are there, the pre-Festina team organized, supervised and supplied doping, the suspicious performances, the "miracle" recoveries, beating other doped riders ect. 

Probably stole the TdF from the Professor that way too, like I said: he was a real "innovator". 

If you are you going talk about falling for the Myth, examine the giant blind spot the average fan boy has. If you think _everyone_ but *your* racing idol dopes or doped; you really aren't thinking at all. Lemond fans even sound like Vino fans, they really are the same guy right down to the team strife and the nationalistic appeal. Of course, Vino is short about 15 lawsuits, but he's young- give him time.  

IMHO, of course.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Old_school_nik said:


> That's an interesting tidbit.. that is an insane wattage, 7.2!!! For an hour HS!. One day a few years ago I was bored and calculated out a bunch of the Hour Record attempts and all of them came out pretty incredible watts/Kilo wise.
> 
> RE: Lemond - he had so many bad days in his tours and never ever just rode away from anyone like they were in a different class - the 89 ITT was the closest but also use the aero bars (standard now) and was the strongest guy in the race by the end... to me, the circumstantial evidence against him compared to any other rider mentioned on this post is thin. I mean compared to LA where about a dozen of his current and former teammates have benn busted or admitted that they did EPO - and I don't know about Lemond's teammate during his heyday (Baur, Hamsten < Jean Franciouse Bernard, etc..) Especially when he had such a hard time getting any kind of results up at the beginning of the EPO era.


Good point. The interesting thing about lemond is his career is devoid of outsize performances. He won Coors, Dauphine, Worlds, Avenier, and stood on the podium of The Tour, Lombardie, LBL.....all by the age of 23. The only surprise was he did not win more. He wasn't like Riis who when from being a domestique to winning the Tour in 18 months.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> Um, fail. The link went to the court filing, not a press release. Face it, he was dirty on and off the bike. His life is a never ending set of betrayals and lawsuits, with Greg being the only constant factor. No amount of wishful thinking will change the sort of person he is. I wonder if he helped Frankie Andreu dope too.
> 
> All the _doped to the gills_ signs are there, the pre-Festina team organized, supervised and supplied doping, the suspicious performances, the "miracle" recoveries, beating other doped riders ect.
> 
> ...


Do you have a list of those 15 lawsuits or is this just another of your inventions to support your Lemond obsession? 

We are still waiting for a list of these "suspicious performances". While you are at it please find one teammate, soinger, DS, Doctor etc. that says they know Lemond doped? All of the riders listed so far have huge amounts of evidence against them.....what does Greg have but an Iron shot in front of a reporter? You also list "Team Strife" how is Greg responsible for The Badger going back on his word?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

lolcat time















Coolhand said:


> Um, fail. The link went to the court filing, not a press release. Face it, he was dirty on and off the bike. His life is a never ending set of betrayals and lawsuits, with Greg being the only constant factor. No amount of wishful thinking will change the sort of person he is. I wonder if he helped Frankie Andreu dope too.
> 
> All the _doped to the gills_ signs are there, the pre-Festina team organized, supervised and supplied doping, the suspicious performances, the "miracle" recoveries, beating other doped riders ect.
> 
> ...


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

+1 for Ricco. I am usually pretty slow to cast out doping accusations, but when I was watching stage nine in the 2008 TDF, I knew. There was not a question in my mind. A couple of days later when they were announcing that somebody else had been caught, I knew who it was before they said it.


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## serbski (Dec 2, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> Um, fail. The link went to the court filing, not a press release. Face it, he was dirty on and off the bike. His life is a never ending set of betrayals and lawsuits, with Greg being the only constant factor. No amount of wishful thinking will change the sort of person he is. I wonder if he helped Frankie Andreu dope too.
> 
> All the _doped to the gills_ signs are there, the pre-Festina team organized, supervised and supplied doping, the suspicious performances, the "miracle" recoveries, beating other doped riders ect.
> 
> ...


Could you please provide some supporting facts (or even heresay quotes from former riders or team employees?) about the "organized, supervized (sic) and supplied doping". Coolhand, you are obviously trolling and looking to stir up reactions with comments that I doubt you really believe (you're really reaching here). Digger, BigPink et al, I would look elsewhere for rational debate...


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> can't believe the ALL-TIME doped performance hasn't been mentioned yet: Rominger's 1994 hour record; averaged 468 watts, or 7.2 watts/kg - for the hour. Ferrari says it best on his website: "How is it possible that Tony Rominger beat Miguel Indurain by more than 2 km?"
> 
> As far as I know, that's the highest recorded watts/kg for an hour attempt (it beats Indurain's by over 1 watt/kg).


It was 456W at 65kg


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## Digger28 (Oct 9, 2008)

thechriswebb said:


> +1 for Ricco. I am usually pretty slow to cast out doping accusations, but when I was watching stage nine in the 2008 TDF, I knew. There was not a question in my mind. A couple of days later when they were announcing that somebody else had been caught, I knew who it was before they said it.


You're correct about Ricco, however the reason I didn't take that much notice is simply that IMO there wasn't much difference in his performance that day and Rasmussen, Contador and Lance. Same kind of dominance - I think I'd seen it so often I'd become de-sensitised to it.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> Um, fail. The link went to the court filing, not a press release. Face it, he was dirty on and off the bike. His life is a never ending set of betrayals and lawsuits, with Greg being the only constant factor. No amount of wishful thinking will change the sort of person he is. I wonder if he helped Frankie Andreu dope too.
> 
> All the _doped to the gills_ signs are there, the pre-Festina team organized, supervised and supplied doping, the suspicious performances, the "miracle" recoveries, beating other doped riders ect.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, your link is to the complaint. That is not a ruling, merely Trek stating what they are alleging. 

If I sue you for defamation, it means NOTHING until it is ruled on by a judge or jury. Until then it's merely my contention that you defamed you.

I'd expect more objectivity of a moderator.


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

ondrea sestonka (sp?) the ultimate unknown breaking the hour record hows that?
landis was a huge ride Rogers who was one of the last to be dropped with Kloden said there was no way he cood sustain that speed for the 145km that he left to ride.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

function said:


> It was 456W at 65kg


Rominger set the record twice, first on Oct 22/94 and then a few weeks later on Nov 5. The Nov 5 time smashed the Oct 22 one by using a larger gear (60x14), which is an insane gear...the Oct 22 attempt was 460 watts, the Nov 5 was 468 (http://bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html) or 7.2 watts/kg. His coach was Ferrari - enough said.

Re the Lemond stuff, move it to another thread and keep this one on topic - is there a more 'non-physiological' performance than Rominger's?


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> Rominger set the record twice, first on Oct 22/94 and then a few weeks later on Nov 5. The Nov 5 time smashed the Oct 22 one by using a larger gear (60x14), which is an insane gear...the Oct 22 attempt was 460 watts, the Nov 5 was 468 (http://bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html) or 7.2 watts/kg. His coach was Ferrari - enough said.
> 
> Re the Lemond stuff, move it to another thread and keep this one on topic - is there a more 'non-physiological' performance than Rominger's?


I stand corrected, thanks for the link!


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## 1stmh (Apr 7, 2007)

You know there is something wrong with your sport when someone starts a thread about who is the biggest cheater of all time, and it gets compliments for being a "good thread." Just what is wrong with us?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

at least the sport looks like it is starting to clean up - if this were football, we'd just be talking about pro bowl players (assuming all of them are juiced at one time or another), same with baseball record holders, soccer, etc.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*What about Tyler in teh 2003 TdF?*

The stage he won. If you ever watch Hell on Wheels, Zabel comments after the stage that he couldn't believe that attacks of 10 would go off the front after him but he held them all off. This, after he broke his collar bone on a day 1 crash.

bt


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## aliensporebomb (Jul 2, 2002)

*Ya!*



Mapei said:


> Basso's 2006 Giro cakewalk takes the cake, as far as I'm concerned. He just seemed so blase as he whipped past everybody on those climbs. He never seemed to break a sweat.


I had pictures in my head going "did I leave the iron on? Ah nice day for a ride, this....
these climbs are way too easy, I need to back off though..."


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*I didn't do it!*



1stmh said:


> You know there is something wrong with your sport when someone starts a thread about who is the biggest cheater of all time, and it gets compliments for being a "good thread."


For some people, myself included, there _is_ something 'wrong' with our sport. Drug use and the ensuing denial that exists in pro cycling (and too many other sports) is what's wrong. It's why we come here to discuss it.
I don't _like_ to hear about doped up athletes, but think that it's neccessary talk about them sometimes, and to bring these things out in the open. _Not_ talking about them is like trying to pretend that they don't exist. 

Personally ,watching Emmanuelle Sella repeatly ride away from the entire Giro peleton, basking in a glory usually reserved for sainthood, made me want to vomit just a little bit.  

Seeing Ivan Basso do the same thing, riding up mountains as though he were on a motorbike, was just pathetic. Not quite as pathetic, though, as the explanation that he managed to come up with. :frown5:

Yes, Ivan. You were just "planning" to dope. And, of course, _I_ didn't inhale.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Digger28 said:


> You're correct about Ricco, however the reason I didn't take that much notice is simply that IMO there wasn't much difference in his performance that day and Rasmusess, Contador and Lance. Same kind of dominance - I think I'd seen it so often I'd become de-sensitised to it.



I think one of the things that tipped me off about Ricco was his condescending attitude. He came across as such a jerk with such confidence in his "performance" over everyone else's that it was easy to believe that he was cheating. I have seen a little of this in Contador, but it doesn't come across the same way. The chicken is still banned, so his case is obvious. I'm going to leave Lance alone because people feel too strongly about him on both sides. Honestly, I love the drama of a big mountain attack; it is one of the most exciting things to view in a cycling race. I just hate it that no performance like that can be truly enjoyed anymore because we can't be convinced that they are clean. Pantani, Landis, Ricco, Basso....eventually they all fall. I'm not one of the obsessed that lives to find another confirmed doper to ridicule, but I am also not one of those who completely does not care and can turn a blind eye to it. It is such a shame.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Yup...*



piano said:


> For some people, myself included, there _is_ something 'wrong' with our sport. Drug use and the ensuing denial that exists in pro cycling (and too many other sports) is what's wrong. It's why we come here to discuss it.
> I don't _like_ to hear about doped up athletes, but think that it's neccessary talk about them sometimes, and to bring these things out in the open. _Not_ talking about them is like trying to pretend that they don't exist.
> 
> Personally ,watching Emmanuelle Sella repeatly ride away from the entire Giro peleton, basking in a glory usually reserved for sainthood, made me want to vomit just a little bit.
> ...


Well said. Exactly why I started the thread and why i come here to read/post.


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## 1stmh (Apr 7, 2007)

piano said:


> For some people, myself included, there _is_ something 'wrong' with our sport. Drug use and the ensuing denial that exists in pro cycling (and too many other sports) is what's wrong. It's why we come here to discuss it.
> I don't _like_ to hear about doped up athletes, but think that it's neccessary talk about them sometimes, and to bring these things out in the open. _Not_ talking about them is like trying to pretend that they don't exist.
> 
> Personally ,watching Emmanuelle Sella repeatly ride away from the entire Giro peleton, basking in a glory usually reserved for sainthood, made me want to vomit just a little bit.
> ...


I totally understand your point. Agree with it even. I started reading this thread, and thought, oh what a great topic. Even enjoyed it. And then it dawned on me that that was so messed up because we are of course talking about the biggest cheaters. And there are SO MANY to choose from. How can we even choose? How many other sports have had this much (public!) cheating, and yet continued. (There is a big difference between being doped and everyone knowing you were doped.)

It just seems to me that after a certain while we become complacent about the cheater and cheating, we accept it as part and parcel of the sport. And then we start threads about it and speak fondly about this rider or that one who was so doped up. It just felt very Alice in Wonderland like. That's all.


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