# Tommy D?



## The Moontrane

Just learned about an adverse "A" sample. 

Tom Danielson fails doping test - News - WSAU News/Talk 550AM 99.9FM


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## spookyload

Whoops. Now I don't feel so bad the way he passed me going up Mt Lemmon. It had to be the juice. Super nice guy, shame if it is true...again.


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## BelgianHammer

Why are we even surprised by this anymore??? What's worse for TD is that there is only one means to get "synthetic" testosterone in yourself (it has to be applied either skin via some means, orally/anally and/or needle). 

I just don't care if people dope anymore or not. They are already blitzkrieg fast, and when they get up into the top 500 riders in the world, it becomes all out war between them. Whatever implements of war are available, let 'em use them at their own risk and discretion. If any of us thinks the likes of Contador, Froome on down the ranks are no longer involved in micro-dosing EPO (virtually undetectable), among other things recently developed, then I've got an igloo in Florida I want to sell you.

The hypocrisy not only lies with teams and pros. It starts and flows from all of us who post on these boards. Have you never injested caffeine? Alcohol?? A bits of weed in your life?? Wait, that's right, you did nothing in your life except walk out of the proverbial garden of eden to appear amongst the human race? Etc? Etc?? So all that stuff is "ok" (tongue-in-check) because greater society says its ok and everyone else & their mother does it? Then lets just ban breathing O2 and get this all over with. Stand up yee blathering righteous ones!

Get a mirror: definition of a hypocrit to the Nth degree is staring you back in the face. And save the screaming about "_level playing fields_" for your other friends in your sacred garden. The only thing "_level_" is the slope of our hypocritical x y graph.


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## coldash

I wonder if Vaughters will tweet ...... "Well..... Hmmmmm... Not much to say."


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## love4himies

I just read his tweet and I must say I'm shocked, or sort of shocked. JV will fire him, his career is over.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">For USADA notifying me that a out of competition test I gave July 9th has tested positive for, from what I understand, synthetic testosteron</p>— tom danielson (@tomdanielson) <a href="https://twitter.com/tomdanielson/status/628077007822172160">August 3, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Unfortunately nobody believes this anymore:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I have not taken this or any other banned substance</p>— tom danielson (@tomdanielson) <a href="https://twitter.com/tomdanielson/status/628077457665454080">August 3, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


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## love4himies

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Vaughters, 2015: “If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.”
<a href="http://t.co/7Lub9yrYyf">http://t.co/7Lub9yrYyf</a> <a href="http://t.co/Bn7kocmSi4">pic.twitter.com/Bn7kocmSi4</a></p>— Spit in the soup (@Spitinthesoup) <a href="https://twitter.com/Spitinthesoup/status/628171554225045504">August 3, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Will JV carry through with this?


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## MMsRepBike

Well he's probably the only one who's surprised he got caught again. I'm sure he thought he had the microdosing thing all figured out. Nice to see him out of the tour.


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## atpjunkie

I remember Tilford's comments about TD


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## love4himies

atpjunkie said:


> I remember Tilford's comments about TD


What were those?


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## matabala

No big surprise...that and much worse continues to gangrene the sport. The story of the young Italian female rider just dying from a "pulmonary embolism" while on the way to a race takes us back to the dark days of shadow doctors and mis-dosed injections. Anyone willing to do the legwork will find countless stories of "promising" riders dropping dead from similar circumstances. The usual excuse was "a previously unknown heart condition"....my foot!


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## atpjunkie

here, Steve's opinions are mostly from experience. He rode / raced against most of these guys as they were up and coming and personally saw meteoric changes in their performance

Vaughters Outs Danielson | Steve Tilford

Yesterday’s Danielson “Rant” | Steve Tilford


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## Coolhand

"I am shocked that there is gambling going on here. "


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## spookyload

Looks like he may have heard of testosierone


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## Alaska Mike

I guess the next move is Vaughter's. It would be a great way to clear the roster of some non-performing riders so you can re-stack the team.

...or he can quit. I'd hate to see that, because it would be one less team out there. Fewer spots means riders feel more pressure to perform, which leads to increased...


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## AJL

atpjunkie said:


> here, Steve's opinions are mostly from experience. He rode / raced against most of these guys as they were up and coming and personally saw meteoric changes in their performance
> 
> Vaughters Outs Danielson | Steve Tilford
> 
> Yesterday’s Danielson “Rant” | Steve Tilford


ymssra. Great post - I'd forgotten about Tilford's comments.


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## Doctor Falsetti

Tom Danielson Positive for Testosterone ? Big Surprise? | Steve Tilford

Tilford's latest


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## Mapei

I have to at least partially agree with BelgianHammer here. If chemists and biologists are continued to allow to exist in our modern world, human nature and the competitive instinct will cause a certain number of us to try their wares. Notions of perfect, enhancement-free sport are noble & romantic and the pursuit of purity in sport is certainly worthwhile, but the battle will always favor the scientists.

I also must say that, as a civilian and non-competitor, I'm glad the scientists are in their labs. Sport may suffer, but our everyday lives benefit.


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## David Loving

Anytime a criminal uses logic to explain his innocence, he's lying, e.g., "why would I kill my girlfriend?" 

"This is one of his tweets from last night. “Especially after everything I have gone through the last years.” He is saying that it makes “absolutely no sense” that he would take drugs currently, even though he took drugs to get into the Pro ranks of the sport and was only “caught” after he was subpoenaed to testify concerning Lance. And even then, it wasn’t public until his team director, Jonathan Vaughters “leaked” it so brilliantly."

"It makes absolutely no sense." = guilty.


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## den bakker

" would never ever take anything like this especially after everything I have gone through the last years."
Sounds a bit familiar. 
Oh yeah 
https://youtu.be/Zad68VOxr8g?t=44s


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## bike981

Well, if one can believe the general gist of Tilford's diatribe, TD was a middling pro-cyclist-wannabe going nowhere fast until he started to dope. At that point he rapidly rose to the pinnacle of his sport's ranks, made a boatload of money and got to live the life he dreamed of but could never have achieved clean. Assuming TD's OK with the short- and long-term health effects of his doping, his decision to dope has worked out fantastic for him.

Until the UCI or whatever comes up with a way to eliminate the economic and ego boost that doping can provide, it's hard to see anything much changing.


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## Local Hero

Wasn't TD an outspoken critic of doping?


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## stevesbike

Local Hero said:


> Wasn't TD an outspoken critic of doping?


TD's entire career can be linked to doping - starting in college, where Rick Crawford was his coach, US domestic teams where the rumors were rampant. Then onto Europe with Fassa Bortolo, Discovery, etc. Now it looks like he'll bring down Garmin. 

Any professional cyclist who takes a supplement is an idiot. They are told not to. The old alibi of tainted supplement is pretty stupid at this point. Hopefully, he'll just go away and not start a gran fondo - in my opinion anyone who rides in an ex-doper's gran fondo is also a db.


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## Mosovich

Aren't most dopers? A killer in jail.. "murder is so wrong"..


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## burgrat

Is this why he went bald?


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## Handbrake

Local Hero said:


> Wasn't TD an outspoken critic of doping?


A lot of dopers are, they want to reduce competition any way they can.

I agree with Tilford, why wouldn't the guy continue to dope? No analytical positives despite years of PED use, and a nothing suspension when he admitted to it.

Be a star or be an unknown? Easy choice.


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## Local Hero

Handbrake said:


> A lot of dopers are, they want to reduce competition any way they can.
> 
> I agree with Tilford, why wouldn't the guy continue to dope? No analytical positives despite years of PED use, and a nothing suspension when he admitted to it.
> 
> Be a star or be an unknown? Easy choice.


Is it an easy decision? 

Tour of Utah peloton surprised, disappointed in Danielson news | Cyclingnews.com

_Ben Jacques-Maynes, who has been an outspoken critic of the doping culture in cycling’s top tier, expressed disappointment tinged with a little anger.

“I mean what can you say?” Jacques-Maynes said. “The guy's already been caught once, and now again. I don’t know why this crap is still going on. He and I started professional cycling the same year in 2002. You can see the trajectory that his career has taken compared to mine. I guess maybe this is why.

“It’s just disappointing that this is the way guys handle their business in this day and age,” Jacques-Maynes said. “So many guys are wanting to get away from that now. I’ve always done that in my career: ride clean and hold my head up high. Everything I’ve done I can point to. Maybe he can learn a lesson from that."_



Also, why do you have negative rep? Explain it--good or bad--and we can probably fix it...if you care.


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## SNS1938

Handbrake said:


> ... No analytical positives despite years of PED use...
> 
> Be a star or be an unknown? Easy choice.


This is key, the testing just doesn't catch many, and rarely catches the higher up riders with more money to spend. None of them seem worried about the testing. Armstrong (pre-bio passport) 500+ tests and one failure that went away for ten years.

We need a kickstarter to raise money to fund better controls. We need middle of the night drug tests when they're sleeping. They have to bust a big name again, and get a major rider to then confess on the current state of doping. Lance's info was out of date.

I hope JV can manage this so that he doesn't lose sponsors, I like the Garmin/Cannondale team. I don't expect them to win a GC, but I know they'll go for stages in the GC's.


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## atpjunkie

Local Hero said:


> Is it an easy decision?
> 
> Tour of Utah peloton surprised, disappointed in Danielson news | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> _Ben Jacques-Maynes, who has been an outspoken critic of the doping culture in cycling’s top tier, expressed disappointment tinged with a little anger.
> 
> “I mean what can you say?” Jacques-Maynes said. “The guy's already been caught once, and now again. I don’t know why this crap is still going on. He and I started professional cycling the same year in 2002. You can see the trajectory that his career has taken compared to mine. I guess maybe this is why.
> 
> “It’s just disappointing that this is the way guys handle their business in this day and age,” Jacques-Maynes said. “So many guys are wanting to get away from that now. I’ve always done that in my career: ride clean and hold my head up high. Everything I’ve done I can point to. Maybe he can learn a lesson from that."_
> 
> 
> 
> Also, why do you have negative rep? Explain it--good or bad--and we can probably fix it...if you care.


and Ben Jacques Maynes is a good domestic racer. Never made the jump to the euro ranks because most likely, he is clean.


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## AJL

SNS1938 said:


> This is key, the testing just doesn't catch many, and rarely catches the higher up riders with more money to spend. None of them seem worried about the testing. Armstrong (pre-bio passport) 500+ tests and one failure that went away for ten years.
> 
> We need a kickstarter to raise money to fund better controls. We need middle of the night drug tests when they're sleeping. They have to bust a big name again, and get a major rider to then confess on the current state of doping. Lance's info was out of date.
> 
> I hope JV can manage this so that he doesn't lose sponsors, I like the Garmin/Cannondale team. I don't expect them to win a GC, but I know they'll go for stages in the GC's.


If JV sticks to his word - he will drop the team like a hot potato.


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## MMsRepBike

AJL said:


> If JV sticks to his word - he will drop the team like a hot potato.


He doesn't have a choice if you ask me.


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## coldash

AJL said:


> If JV sticks to his word - he will drop the team like a hot potato.


Looks like he won't. From his Twitter



> Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.


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## MMsRepBike

Well he's a liar then and scum just like the cheaters. I just lost all respect for him and his team.


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## AJL

MMsRepBike said:


> Well he's a liar then and scum just like the cheaters. I just lost all respect for him and his team.


+eleventy. JV just doesn't have the courage of his convictions. Too bad, so sad - I'll won't believe another thing JV says.


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## Doctor Falsetti

AJL said:


> If JV sticks to his word - he will drop the team like a hot potato.


Do you really want Cannodale/Garmin to shut down? 27 riders and 45 staff out of work because Tommy D is an idiot? Really?

JV's quotes are from before Cannondale came on board. It is not his team anymore, They own a significant amount of it. Cannondale should kill their own team?


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## ibericb

He may be waiting for B sample results. It has happened before (Vania Rossi, 2010; Luis Mansilla, 2012) when a B sample did not confirm the A, and as a result the entire matter was dropped by USADA and the rider was cleared of all charges. It is indeed rare, but it has happened.


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## MMsRepBike

More like he should have known better and never said such things.

Now he's a proven liar. That wasn't so smart, it was always going to happen anyway, just a matter of time. He's just another Lance now, making bold statements about anti-doping but just lying the whole time.


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## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Do you really want Cannodale/Garmin to shut down? 27 riders and 45 staff out of work because Tommy D is an idiot? Really?
> 
> JV's quotes are from before Cannondale came on board. It is not his team anymore, They own a significant amount of it. Cannondale should kill their own team?


I agree. 

I do expect Tommy will be fired if the B sample is positive. I can't believe he would be so stupid as to do such an easily detectable drug.


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## ibericb

Doctor Falsetti said:


> JV's quotes are from before Cannondale came on board. It is not his team anymore, They own a significant amount of it. Cannondale should kill their own team?


Do you know the ownership share that Cannondale has in Slipstream Sports LLC? I've looked and can't find any public indication of who owns what share.


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## Doctor Falsetti

ibericb said:


> Do you know the ownership share that Cannondale has in Slipstream Sports LLC? I've looked and can't find any public indication of who owns what share.


I remember hearing 40% but that was from a friend who was on the team and did not get resigned so it may not be correct. The reason was Cannodale was able to name X number of riders to the team.


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## ibericb

Cool, thanks!


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## AJL

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Do you really want Cannodale/Garmin to shut down? 27 riders and 45 staff out of work because Tommy D is an idiot? Really?
> 
> JV's quotes are from before Cannondale came on board. It is not his team anymore, They own a significant amount of it. Cannondale should kill their own team?


JV's gaming the system, like everyone else. He shouldn't get up on his high horse if he's not willing to get down.


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## Doctor Falsetti

AJL said:


> JV's gaming the system, like everyone else. He shouldn't get up on his high horse if he's not willing to get down.


Not willing or not able? It is not his team anymore. 

So shutting down the team is the right thing to do?


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## David Loving

Of course not! Cycling should accept that teams dope and just move on.


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## Doctor Falsetti

David Loving said:


> Of course not! Cycling should accept that teams dope and just move on.


Teams that dope? 

Do you really think Tommy D is part of some team doping program? Do all teams that have a rider test positive get the death penalty? 

JV took down your boy, get over it


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## Handbrake

Local Hero said:


> Is it an easy decision?


I don't know if Ben Jacques-Maynes is talented enough to be a pro tour cyclist, nor that he has the sort of physiology that would see big results from doping. Good on him if it is yes to both and he still chose to stay clean.

But there are plenty enough Tom Danielsons out there, and the risk versus reward is so far out of alignment, that it doesn't much matter. Tom's choice was to take the very slight risk that he would be caught doping. He became a well known well compensated cyclist who has companies like Mavic chasing after him for endorsements. He has a million dollar house in the CO mountains. Even when he did admit to doping, all he got was a suspension during the offseason.

Do the right thing and don't dope and he can look forward to a life of working 9-5, being the start of the weekend crit races, and maybe hoping to save up enough for a vacation in the mountains.

People draw all kinds of lines everywhere but doping in sports pays and for many that is what matters. I'm actually happy that I am so slow on a bike I never had to make the decision, because I honestly can't say which way I would have gone.

And I don't recall why I have negative rep, but it doesn't really matter much Thanks for the offer of help though.


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## AJL

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Not willing or not able? It is not his team anymore.
> 
> So shutting down the team is the right thing to do?


No one is stopping him from keeping his word. Of course he is able to. Cannondale would have to find another sponsor. I didn't say it would be easy.
But back to my point - he should shut the hell up from now on. Maybe you buy that he's just being 'responsible' as an owner - OK, then he should admit his was an idiot for what he said.


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## Handbrake

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Not willing or not able? It is not his team anymore.


Are you claiming Vaughters can't walk away from the team?


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## Doctor Falsetti

AJL said:


> No one is stopping him from keeping his word. Of course he is able to. Cannondale would have to find another sponsor. I didn't say it would be easy.
> But back to my point - he should shut the hell up from now on. Maybe you buy that he's just being 'responsible' as an owner - OK, then he should admit his was an idiot for what he said.


Yes, he is no longer in control of the team. Even if he wanted to he could not shut it down. It was true at the time so hard to say he is an idiot for saying what was true at the time. Things change, get over it


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## stevesbike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yes, he is no longer in control of the team. Even if he wanted to he could not shut it down. It was true at the time so hard to say he is an idiot for saying what was true at the time. Things change, get over it


you might want to do some research - the line was repeated in the NYT a little over a month ago (Jun 25):

"Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired."

Point is, now it's pretty clear it was just marketing BS. The problem is, without taking action he now just looks like Riis and all the BS about his team's dedication to clean cycling.

Everyone connected to cycling knows TD has been associated with doping since his amateur days. His collegiate coach was Rick Crawford (redacted Other-7), who supplied levi with EPO in the late 90s. Saturn was a joke, then Fassa Bartolo then Discovery. JV just continued the BS about how great TD's numbers were in the lab, what a natural talent he was, when everyone knew it was a lie. Doesn't do much for credibility....


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## Doctor Falsetti

stevesbike said:


> you might want to do some research - the line was repeated in the NYT a little over a month ago (Jun 25):
> 
> "Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired."
> 
> Point is, now it's pretty clear it was just marketing BS. The problem is, without taking action he now just looks like Riis and all the BS about his team's dedication to clean cycling.


That is not a quote from JV, that is the reporter assuming what was true when the team was founded is still true today. 

Do you think they should shut down?


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## Handbrake

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Do you think they should shut down?


You seem to be wanting very much for this to be only about the team shutting down or not. What about Vaughers, should he disassociate himself from the team?


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## Doctor Falsetti

i am responding to the calls for JV to shut down the team,

I am surprised he is still involved. He has his MBA, figured he would move on from the Pro Cycling circus. 

Unless he was Tommy D's dealer I don't see why he would need to move on


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## AJL

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yes, he is no longer in control of the team. Even if he wanted to he could not shut it down. It was true at the time so hard to say he is an idiot for saying what was true at the time. Things change, get over it


You get over yourself. I'm entitled to my opinion. I'm fine if you don't agree.


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## stevesbike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> That is not a quote from JV, that is the reporter assuming what was true when the team was founded is still true today.
> 
> Do you think they should shut down?


I know firsthand that the NYT fact checks every sentence of their articles, so that would have been passed by JV. It's not what we think he should do. He took a position for a new model of a cycling team with internal testing, transparency, and a rider commitment to non-doping. He bet the farm on it - sponsors got back in the game because of it. Now it's time to walk the walk...


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## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> that is the reporter assuming what was true when the team was founded is still true today.


And why wouldn't that be a reasonable assumption? If it changed, when did it change?


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## cxwrench

spookyload said:


> Whoops. Now I don't feel so bad the way he passed me going up Mt Lemmon. It had to be the juice. *Super nice guy,* shame if it is true...again.


Maybe to you...but not in general. I was his first wife's team mechanic when they were still married and he was one of the biggest douche bags I've ever met. Including Lance. There are very few people I'd like to meet in a dark alley, but he's on the list.


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## Doctor Falsetti

When the merged with Cannodale and JV's ownership of the team was reduced to 10%


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## Doctor Falsetti

cxwrench said:


> Maybe to you...but not in general. I was his first wife's team mechanic when they were still married and he was one of the biggest douche bags I've ever met. Including Lance. There are very few people I'd like to meet in a dark alley, but he's on the list.


This

TD is an uber douche. Always has been.


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## Doctor Falsetti

stevesbike said:


> I know firsthand that the NYT fact checks every sentence of their articles, so that would have been passed by JV. It's not what we think he should do. He took a position for a new model of a cycling team with internal testing, transparency, and a rider commitment to non-doping. He bet the farm on it - sponsors got back in the game because of it. Now it's time to walk the walk...


Even the NYT gets lazy, Jayson Blair ring a bell? 

So you think they should shut down the team. I think a better solution would be keep the team alive, investigate to see if this is systemic in the team or an isolated incident. Adjust based on the results. If it is some kind of team program then kill it.....but I have heard nothing like that. 

The team will continue to change. TD was already going to be gone next year. Ryder as well. JV seems much less interested these days, would not be surprised if he moved on soon anyways.


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## cmdrpiffle

Local Hero said:


> Is it an easy decision?
> 
> Tour of Utah peloton surprised, disappointed in Danielson news | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> _Ben Jacques-Maynes, who has been an outspoken critic of the doping culture in cycling’s top tier, expressed disappointment tinged with a little anger.
> 
> “I mean what can you say?” Jacques-Maynes said. “The guy's already been caught once, and now again. I don’t know why this crap is still going on. He and I started professional cycling the same year in 2002. You can see the trajectory that his career has taken compared to mine. I guess maybe this is why.
> 
> “It’s just disappointing that this is the way guys handle their business in this day and age,” Jacques-Maynes said. “So many guys are wanting to get away from that now. I’ve always done that in my career: ride clean and hold my head up high. Everything I’ve done I can point to. Maybe he can learn a lesson from that."_
> 
> 
> 
> Also, why do you have negative rep? Explain it--good or bad--and we can probably fix it...if you care.


,,,,,


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## cmdrpiffle

MMsRepBike said:


> Well he's a liar then and scum just like the cheaters. I just lost all respect for him and his team.


I'd agree with you. It's however the 'gravy train', a system that many, especially folks like JV, is all they've ever known. If JV actually had to go out and do something non cycling related, as in completely non cycling related, he'd be hard pressed to compete.

Can't blame him, he has to have a paycheck. He played his cards several years back in dealing with 'absolutes', I'm not gonna stand for...., etc., ad nauseam... It's going to bite his ass a bit on this situation. 

Personally? I'd look for the JV's of the world to start 'past tensing' some of the doping issues. Example being when someone get's popped, instead of a reaction to the individual, they're more likely to start playing the "doping? that's still going on?" attitude with the press and twitter. Makes it easier to absolve themselves from earlier statements and take the position of "I'm just moving on". Or, I'm not commenting in depth on a particular cyclist's situation on doping because it's not helping my present employment situation.

One thing is crystal clear. With regard to : doping, cheating, doing anything and anything to get ahead... It's in full force in amateur and professional ranks everywhere. 

Anyway, great discussion. I tend to lurk on the doping forum but have a little bit of practical knowledge on the issue and like to follow the threads here. :thumbsup:

.


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## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Even the NYT gets lazy, Jayson Blair ring a bell?
> 
> So you think they should shut down the team. I think a better solution would be keep the team alive, investigate to see if this is systemic in the team or an isolated incident. Adjust based on the results. If it is some kind of team program then kill it.....but I have heard nothing like that.
> 
> The team will continue to change. TD was already going to be gone next year. Ryder as well. JV seems much less interested these days, would not be surprised if he moved on soon anyways.


Why Ryder?


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## MMsRepBike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> JV seems much less interested these days, would not be surprised if he moved on soon anyways.


He needs to now. He's done in this sport if you ask me. There's no place for liars that stand on soap boxes and yell about how they'll stop doping but then just allow it.


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## Doctor Falsetti

MMsRepBike said:


> He needs to now. He's done in this sport if you ask me. There's no place for liars that stand on soap boxes and yell about how they'll stop doping but then just allow it.


So JV allowed Tommy D to dope? 

That is a strong claim, anything to back it up? If JV does not immediately fire 60 + people then he is allowing it?


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## love4himies

MMsRepBike said:


> He needs to now. He's done in this sport if you ask me. There's no place for liars that stand on soap boxes and yell about how they'll stop doping but then just allow it.


Allow it? WTF, do you think JV sleeps, eats and lives at each and every one of his team's place? He has not "allowed" it. I bet he would love to strangle TommyD right now, or better yet, go back in time and not resign him. Should have replaced him with Phil Gaimon. 

I bet you will see him leave managing a team soon, leave the sport altogether, not sure about that, it's what he knows. He once tweeted that the hardest thing for him to do is to face fans when there is a doping allegation.


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## MMsRepBike

Does he have a say in who's on the team?
Did he have a say in allowing a known cheat on the team?
Did he say he'd fire everyone if anyone got caught?
Did he say he'd just go on as normal now that someone got caught?


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## love4himies

Handbrake said:


> I'm actually happy that I am so slow on a bike I never had to make the decision, because I honestly can't say which way I would have gone.


Good on you for being honest, many people think they are holier-than-thou and would never make that decision to dope or to walk away. While there are some that do (very upstanding, indeed), there are some that have been dreaming of riding the TdF their whole lives and have worked since being a child to do so. 

One of the LBS owners has a son who is a pro mountain biker stated in a conversation with me that she is happy her son hasn't had to face the pressure to dope, but is not sure whether she would condemn her son for doing so if the choice was to dope or give up your dreams.

Edit:

This got me to thinking. Cannondale-Garmin, a team that I believe doesn't pressure it's riders to dope. Would it be better for them to shut down leaving their riders to go to teams where there is still that pressure? or to continue to give clean riders a chance to live their dreams and hard work with no pressure?


----------



## stevesbike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> So JV allowed Tommy D to dope?
> 
> That is a strong claim, anything to back it up? If JV does not immediately fire 60 + people then he is allowing it?


if he doesn't live by the policy he made for the team, then he is sending a pretty strong message that there's 2 policies - the real one that's just like every other team and one for public relations. You don't seem to be getting that the team as a whole was supposed to be so committed to anti-doping that they would all live under the one dope - all fired rule. Now it's just PR BS. 

It also makes Ryder's 2012 Giro performance look suspicious. Was the "transparency" around him just another smokescreen?


----------



## rufus

Doctor Falsetti said:


> That is not a quote from JV, that is the reporter assuming what was true when the team was founded is still true today.
> 
> Do you think they should shut down?


They don't have to shut down. they can start all over with new riders. Lots of guys out there looking for new teams to move to. 

At the very least, Vaughters could resign for being a lying scumbag.


----------



## love4himies

stevesbike said:


> if he doesn't live by the policy he made for the team, then he is sending a pretty strong message that there's 2 policies - the real one that's just like every other team and one for public relations. You don't seem to be getting that the team as a whole was supposed to be so committed to anti-doping that they would all live under the one dope - all fired rule. Now it's just PR BS.
> 
> It also makes Ryder's 2012 Giro performance look suspicious. Was the "transparency" around him just another smokescreen?


Ryder's win was only because there was an absence of big names. He didn't want to ride as GC, but was convinced the fall 2011 that the course was made for him so he trained for it. 

If you want to look for suspicion of doping, you will be hard pressed to find a team that doesn't have any.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

stevesbike said:


> if he doesn't live by the policy he made for the team, then he is sending a pretty strong message that there's 2 policies - the real one that's just like every other team and one for public relations. You don't seem to be getting that the team as a whole was supposed to be so committed to anti-doping that they would all live under the one dope - all fired rule. Now it's just PR BS.
> 
> It also makes Ryder's 2012 Giro performance look suspicious. Was the "transparency" around him just another smokescreen?


Like any other team? Do you really think Astana is at as much risk of losing their sponsor due to a positive as JV is? 

If you read what JV has actually said 



> "We have very strong clauses in the contract, which means if there are any current anti-doping infractions, that can cause total termination."





> All of our sponsors contracts are breached on 1 positive test.


He is lucky that the sponsors, who now own more of the team then he does, have not yet decided to take that option. Tossing 60+ people out of work because TD is a idiot does not seem like the solution. Closing down to prove a semantic point even less so. 

Regarding Ryder's Giro. I am sure there is another thread on this but at 5.5 W/kg in the 2012 Giro. The lowest avg. power output of a Grand Tour winner since LeMond.



> Hesjedal is the only GC contender we have with published blood data without any major red flags





> so it’s reassuring that limits can be set and over the course of a grand tour the performance from a rider without clear evidence of doping on the blood data overall stays below what might be expected of a top clean rider


BMF case study Hesjedal Giro 2012 ? Bikes Pondered With Dude N Brah


----------



## MMsRepBike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> He is lucky that the sponsors, who now own more of the team then he does, have not yet decided to take that option. Tossing 60+ people out of work because TD is a idiot does not seem like the solution. Closing down to prove a semantic point even less so.


The point is the JV is the idiot, not TD.

TD is doing as TD does and has always done.

Let's flip this a bit. Let's say I have a dog that shits in the house all the time. I yell at all of my dogs that if one more **** is found in the house that they're all gone. The problem dog I have will, of course, **** in the house again some day. Now how is it fair that I kick out the rest of the dogs? Where do I get off saying they all go if this one can't "fix his own problem." Did I not know that he was a house shitter? What did I do to stop him from shitting in the house? Threaten him and the rest of the dogs, that's it? And that's supposed to do something?

JV is the idiot here clearly. This is sport FULL of dopers and he has a PROVEN ADMITTED doper on his roster. Where does he got off saying everyone is fired? Who does he think that he is really? Did he think his empty threats would change things? Really? Obviously not seeing how he's not backing anything up. He's spineless. He's a liar and a coward.


----------



## thighmaster

Darn, I thought he was a clean new era rider.


----------



## love4himies

MMsRepBike said:


> The point is the JV is the idiot, not TD.
> 
> TD is doing as TD does and has always done.
> 
> Let's flip this a bit. Let's say I have a dog that shits in the house all the time. I yell at all of my dogs that if one more **** is found in the house that they're all gone. The problem dog I have will, of course, **** in the house again some day. Now how is it fair that I kick out the rest of the dogs? Where do I get off saying they all go if this one can't "fix his own problem." Did I not know that he was a house shitter? What did I do to stop him from shitting in the house? Threaten him and the rest of the dogs, that's it? And that's supposed to do something?
> 
> JV is the idiot here clearly. This is sport FULL of dopers and he has a PROVEN ADMITTED doper on his roster. Where does he got off saying everyone is fired? Who does he think that he is really? Did he think his empty threats would change things? Really? Obviously not seeing how he's not backing anything up. He's spineless. He's a liar and a coward.


I think he's somebody who really believed in his team at the time he said that. He gets off saying that when it was HIS team, it's not HIS team anymore.


You don't know what was said behind closed doors after the positive was made public. He may have a contract and was threatened to be sued if he broke it by quitting. You don't know what JV is saying to himself right now. It's so easy to judge others when you haven't walked in their shoes or know the full story. 

It's too bad TommyD had to go and tarnish it, but we should wait until the B sample is tested.


----------



## Local Hero

1 positive test and the sponsor cancel the contract. It does not need to be team doping. No tolerance! 

What is the point of having these policies? 



It sounds to me like the policies are there to help the team police itself, riders policing other riders and so on. Since that policy has failed, where do we go? What must the policy be moving forward?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

MMsRepBike said:


> The point is the JV is the idiot, not TD.
> 
> TD is doing as TD does and has always done.
> 
> Let's flip this a bit. Let's say I have a dog that shits in the house all the time. I yell at all of my dogs that if one more **** is found in the house that they're all gone. The problem dog I have will, of course, **** in the house again some day. Now how is it fair that I kick out the rest of the dogs? Where do I get off saying they all go if this one can't "fix his own problem." Did I not know that he was a house shitter? What did I do to stop him from shitting in the house? Threaten him and the rest of the dogs, that's it? And that's supposed to do something?
> 
> JV is the idiot here clearly. This is sport FULL of dopers and he has a PROVEN ADMITTED doper on his roster. Where does he got off saying everyone is fired? Who does he think that he is really? Did he think his empty threats would change things? Really? Obviously not seeing how he's not backing anything up. He's spineless. He's a liar and a coward.


So you yell at the dog, dog stops shitting. Does not **** in the house for 7 years. Suddenly, when the dog is looking for a new contract because it is going to get cut, dog starts shitting again. 

He should fire 60+ people to prove to you he is not a coward. Easy to be that brave on a keyboard, much harder in real life


----------



## MMsRepBike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> He should fire 60+ people to prove to you he is not a coward. Easy to be that brave on a keyboard, much harder in real life


Did he or did he not say that was the policy?

Who came up with the policy? Who was parading around the media telling it to anyone that would listen? Who's idea was it to begin with? Wasn't it the premise of the team in general, a team that does not allow dopers and doping? A team that he would personally disband if anyone did dope?

He doesn't have to prove anything to anyone, he already did by announcing his policy was nothing more than an empty threat.

He was pretty brave when he was running around shooting off his mouth about how tough he is on doping. 

You're not going to be able to make any excuse for him worth anything. This is black and white.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> So you yell at the dog, dog stops shitting. Does not **** in the house for 7 years. Suddenly, when the dog is looking for a new contract because it is going to get cut, dog starts shitting again.


More like, "We're tired of dogs always shitting in this house. One more dog shits in here and it's over...no more dogs!" 

That makes sense to me. 



> Easy to be that brave on a keyboard, much harder in real life


That should be your signature.


----------



## den bakker

on the upside: there will soon be some cheap coffee to pick up soon.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

MMsRepBike said:


> Did he or did he not say that was the policy?
> 
> Who came up with the policy? Who was parading around the media telling it to anyone that would listen? Who's idea was it to begin with? Wasn't it the premise of the team in general, a team that does not allow dopers and doping? A team that he would personally disband if anyone did dope?
> 
> He doesn't have to prove anything to anyone, he already did by announcing his policy was nothing more than an empty threat.
> 
> He was pretty brave when he was running around shooting off his mouth about how tough he is on doping.
> 
> You're not going to be able to make any excuse for him worth anything. This is black and white.


He said his sponsors can drop the team with a single positive test. 

We get it, you are the big brave man who would immediately put 60+ people out of work to show how brave you are. Not like that coward JV! 

Go ahead, bang away on your keyboard demanding blood.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> More like, "We're tired of dogs always shitting in this house. One more dog shits in here and it's over...no more dogs!"
> 
> That makes sense to me.
> 
> That should be your signature.


This weird obsession of yours gets stranger by the day. 

Ok, we get it. You are in the summary execution crowd.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> He said his sponsors can drop the team with a single positive test.
> 
> We get it, you are the big brave man who would immediately put 60+ people out of work to show how brave you are. Not like that coward JV!
> 
> Go ahead, bang away on your keyboard demanding blood.


I'm not stupid enough to make such ridiculous claims as he did. I never would have said such a thing, especially if I wasn't going to follow through on it. Why on earth would he have even made such a ridiculous policy? Maybe... 

As for that sponsor thing...

He said it's written in the contracts that no doping is allowed. So that means he brought this up in negotiations to get sponsors. He promoted his team as drug free and doping free so that he could get sponsors. Then told them they could leave if his team was caught with a doper. Sounds to me like he not only made empty threats to his team he also used the empty threats to gain sponsors. That's another layer of scumbag we can add to him now.


----------



## asgelle

MMsRepBike said:


> ... Then told them they could leave if his team was caught with a doper. ...


Seems to me there's a giant chasm between "could leave" and "must leave."


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

MMsRepBike said:


> I'm not stupid enough to make such ridiculous claims as he did. I never would have said such a thing, especially if I wasn't going to follow through on it. Why on earth would he have even made such a ridiculous policy? Maybe...
> 
> As for that sponsor thing...
> 
> He said it's written in the contracts that no doping is allowed. So that means he brought this up in negotiations to get sponsors. He promoted his team as drug free and doping free so that he could get sponsors. Then told them they could leave if his team was caught with a doper. Sounds to me like he not only made empty threats to his team he also used the empty threats to gain sponsors. That's another layer of scumbag we can add to him now.


Funny how you ignore the fact that all of those quotes are from before the merged the team with Cannondale. It is not just JV and Doug's team anymore. 

If only TD had doped last year then you could have done your victory dance while everyone looked for a job.


----------



## Local Hero

When did Vaughters announce the team's new, more relaxed doping policies?






Doctor Falsetti said:


> This weird obsession of yours gets stranger by the day.
> 
> Ok, we get it. You are in the summary execution crowd.


That doesn't make sense. 

What does make sense is that motto you posted above. When I read your personal attacks against others here I think, _Easy to be that brave on a keyboard, much harder in real life_.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Funny how you ignore the fact that all of those quotes are from before the merged the team with Cannondale. It is not just JV and Doug's team anymore.
> 
> If only TD had doped last year then you could have done your victory dance while everyone looked for a job.


Okay fair enough. I never said they should all leave anyway, it's a stupid policy made by a fool. He's the one that should leave. The other riders are innocents in my mind, they deserve nothing ill to come to them. The team should stay intact with it's riders and sponsors. JV should go.


----------



## stevesbike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Funny how you ignore the fact that all of those quotes are from before the merged the team with Cannondale. It is not just JV and Doug's team anymore.
> 
> If only TD had doped last year then you could have done your victory dance while everyone looked for a job.


you keep ignoring the restatement of their policy just a little over a month ago in the NYT article. It is being cited all over the place, including cycling news sites and even JV's facebook page. See that part that the policy remains today? That's as of June 25/2015.

"Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired."

I don't think anyone here is saying JV should fire everyone, but he will have to live with the consequences of this policy. Either man up or admit it was a PR bluff.


----------



## love4himies

stevesbike said:


> but he will have to live with the consequences of this policy.


Oh yes he will.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

stevesbike said:


> you keep ignoring the restatement of their policy just a little over a month ago in the NYT article. It is being cited all over the place, including cycling news sites and even JV's facebook page. See that part that the policy remains today? That's as of June 25/2015.
> 
> "Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired."
> 
> I don't think anyone here is saying JV should fire everyone, but he will have to live with the consequences of this policy. Either man up or admit it was a PR bluff.


You keep ignoring that those are the words from a journalist, not a quote from JV


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Interesting article

Commentary: Vaughters and unintended consequences - VeloNews.com


----------



## eyebob

*ATP and AJL*



AJL said:


> ymssra. Great post - I'd forgotten about Tilford's comments.


Yup, pretty much Tilford nailed it way back when. Sorry to see, again.

bt


----------



## stevesbike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Interesting article
> 
> Commentary: Vaughters and unintended consequences - VeloNews.com


which accepts what you've been questioning - that JV is now walking away from his stated policies. And while those policies are supported as current by a NYT article (a generally pretty credible source) you have what to support the contention that those policies are no longer the teams? Again, the point everyone but you seem to be making is that JV now appears just like the other team directors who hid behind a smokescreen of "new paradigms." Unfortunately, JV is about as douchey as TD, so it's hard not to be cynical now that he's just shown he's not a man of his word. He should be walking away from the sport if he had any integrity. He staked his entire business model on a doping free team (which seems kind of weird when you take into account he recruited mainly cheats and liars).


----------



## Local Hero

_Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. _
-Vaughters

What an ego.


----------



## Handbrake

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Unless he was Tommy D's dealer I don't see why he would need to move on


Because he said he would?

All this tough talk is going to stay just that, until someone backs it up, and that isn't going go be Vaughters.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Does this "One and Done" rule apply to all managers or just J.V.?

Great way to enforce Omerta. Smart managers will say nothing. Vino just shrugs










Johan says nothing










Lance focuses on his new job fixing tires









JV should just stay quite.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> When did Vaughters announce the team's new, more relaxed doping policies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't make sense.
> 
> What does make sense is that motto you posted above. When I read your personal attacks against others here I think, _Easy to be that brave on a keyboard, much harder in real life_.


Thanks for proving my point. 

Really dude, the stalking stuff is just weird.


----------



## love4himies

Unless we know what the conversation was between JV and his sponsors, we shouldn't judge his decision to stay. For all we know he may have tried to hand in his resignation and they talked him out of it for what ever reason. We can sit here and judge but we don't know what we would do in his situation. I'm sure there are many of us that said we wouldn't do something and ended up doing it. 

He has been good for the sport in implementing an anti-doping policy on his team back when doping was so prevalent. He does extra testing on his team to check for doping. Is that really the type of manager we want out of managing a team???


----------



## ibericb

If you believe the press release statements, he (and the team, sponsors, etc.,) are waiting for confirmation from the B sample. After that, then we will see what happens. The fat lady hasn't started yet.

_“In accordance with Slipstream Sports’ zero tolerance anti-doping policy, he has been suspended from competition, effective immediately. He awaits the results his B sample. 

“Slipstream respects and will adhere to the process of the anti-doping authorities and will not comment further.”
_​


----------



## spade2you

Usual attacks aside, shouldn't be concerned that Tommy D wasn't really that impressive compared to other UCI riders? It's not like he has dominated a lot of stuff this year.


----------



## love4himies

Anybody have any idea how long it takes to get the results of a B sample and if a different lab does the testing?


----------



## stevesbike

ibericb said:


> If you believe the press release statements, he (and the team, sponsors, etc.,) are waiting for confirmation from the B sample. After that, then we will see what happens. The fat lady hasn't started yet.
> 
> _“In accordance with Slipstream Sports’ zero tolerance anti-doping policy, he has been suspended from competition, effective immediately. He awaits the results his B sample.
> 
> “Slipstream respects and will adhere to the process of the anti-doping authorities and will not comment further.”
> _​


he's already indicated he'll stay on in a public statement, so the b sample is irrelevant for that.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Does this "One and Done" rule apply to all managers or just J.V.?


Who else said it?


> Great way to enforce Omerta. Smart managers will say nothing.
> ...
> JV should just stay quite.


If Vaughters's rule was unwise, why didn't anyone criticize it at the time? I remember the opposite. He was praised. 

And we always hear about everything Vaughters has done to clean up the sport. Aside from this no doping policy, what has he done? 

What makes Vaughters different than other DSs? 



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Thanks for proving my point.
> 
> Really dude, the stalking stuff is just weird.


Now that your personal attacks aree out of the way, can you answer my question:* When did Vaughters announce the team's new, more relaxed doping policies?*



spade2you said:


> Usual attacks aside, shouldn't be concerned that Tommy D wasn't really that impressive compared to other UCI riders? It's not like he has dominated a lot of stuff this year.


Phil gave two options when something like that happened: 

1) The person was naturally talented

2) The drugs don't help all that much


of course there is a third option: Others are/were doing it too



love4himies said:


> Anybody have any idea how long it takes to get the results of a B sample and if a different lab does the testing?


I'm still waiting on Paolini's B for cocaine.


----------



## ibericb

stevesbike said:


> he's already indicated he'll stay on in a public statement, so the b sample is irrelevant for that.


I disagree - if the B sample doesn't confirm A, as has happened (rarely) in the past, then there's no foul. If the B sample confirms A, which based on history is most likely, then it's test time, both for Vaughters, as well as Cannondale, Garmin, and others.

The finding from the A sample took 24 days from sample collection to telling Danielson. I'd be surprised if anything is known before the week of August 24th.


----------



## DMH2979

Doctor Falsetti said:


> This
> 
> TD is an uber douche. Always has been.


Agreed 100%. First came in contact with him at a stage race in Estes Park when he rode for Mercury. Total DB


----------



## spade2you

Local Hero said:


> I'm still waiting on Paolini's B for cocaine.


I'd estimate he simply admitted that he likes the booger sugar. He's not a coke addict. He just likes how it smells.


----------



## nate

spade2you said:


> Usual attacks aside, shouldn't be concerned that Tommy D wasn't really that impressive compared to other UCI riders? It's not like he has dominated a lot of stuff this year.


Looking at his voided results from the years he admitted doping, why would we expect him to be impressive while doping at the age of 37? Even in his athletic prime and while admittedly doped he wasn't exactly a world-beater (in a relative sense compared to the rest of the peloton, not compared to lower tier riders or amateurs).


----------



## spade2you

nate said:


> Looking at his voided results from the years he admitted doping, why would we expect him to be impressive while doping at the age of 37? Even in his athletic prime and while admittedly doped he wasn't exactly a world-beater (in a relative sense compared to the rest of the peloton, not compared to lower tier riders or amateurs).


No arguments here. Still should make one wonder if the folks who beat him are clean.


----------



## AJL

spade2you said:


> No arguments here. Still should make one wonder if the folks who beat him are clean.


Yeah, and then there is the whole reverse domino effect when someone with better Palmarès gets popped for doping - what that say about those ahead of him? Or those who are close? When there is smoke, there is usually fire. In TD's case, he had to dope to get into the Euro scene - that's a big jump in $$s and recognition compared to domestic racing. It all gets complicated with riders doping for specific targets (races) - which means sometimes that better riders are in-between periodized "training" cycles and hence don't perform as well.


----------



## Handbrake

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Great way to enforce Omerta. Smart managers will say nothing.


Vaughters doesn't need public promises to convince him to keep omerta, he did that just fine without them.


----------



## SicBith

Doctor Falsetti said:


> So you yell at the dog, dog stops shitting. Does not **** in the house for 7 years. Suddenly, when the dog is looking for a new contract because it is going to get cut, dog starts shitting again.
> 
> He should fire 60+ people to prove to you he is not a coward. Easy to be that brave on a keyboard, much harder in real life


Better yet why doesn't he just shut down the team? Call it quits, the sport could always use one less team.
One guy is a douche and the entire team should get canned. People have gone a** crazy over the absoultes of doping penalties. It's not bad enough that the 2010 almost killed the sport, but now we're going to keep crushing teams by firing 60+ people. It's just insane behavior. Punish the rider in this case. It's their first offense...leave the team alone...jeez


----------



## PBL450

matabala said:


> No big surprise...that and much worse continues to gangrene the sport. The story of the young Italian female rider just dying from a "pulmonary embolism" while on the way to a race takes us back to the dark days of shadow doctors and mis-dosed injections. Anyone willing to do the legwork will find countless stories of "promising" riders dropping dead from similar circumstances. The usual excuse was "a previously unknown heart condition"....my foot!


Young women dropping dead without warning from pulmonary embolisms is usually associated with a rare but deadly side effect from oral contraception. It is increasing in occurrence...


----------



## Jwiffle

Funny how this thread went from focusing on Tommy D's positive to focusing on JV's policies.

Appears to me TD got desperate and fell back on old ways (if he ever left them, I have no idea one way or the other)

As for JV saying the whole team would be fired for one doping positive and people getting up in arms over the fact that he isn't doing so--

Look up this word in the dictionary: hyperbole.

Anyone who thinks JV would have actually meant at the time to fire the whole team over one positive needs to learn how think a little more rationally. Obviously a statement made for rhetorical effect, not actual policy. Was that policy written in the team's by-laws? I seriously doubt it. In fact, he'd probably end up with 50 lawsuits if he actually tried to fire everyone.

Should JV be forced to leave because he made a hyperbolic statement about how against doping he stands? (Especially when it's obvious that it was hyperbole to begin with?) Some of you obviously think so. I don't. I don't think his staying means that he really was trying to hide dopers from the outset. I don't think his staying means he didn't actually believe in his cause. Rather, I think his statement says just how strongly he felt about the cause. I think he should continue to stay and fight doping. We may get a better look at how strongly JV feels about the cause if TD's B comes back positive. If I were JV, I'd sue TD for the beach of contract and the damage done to the team.


----------



## Local Hero

We keep hearing about all the good Vaughters has done for cycling. If what he said was hyperbole, what good has he done?


----------



## spookyload

How can anyone possibly be shocked by a Garmin rider testing positive? The team was founded on "reformed" or caught dopers. Look at the list of people on the team who have been caught. David Millar, Christian Vandevelde, Dave Zabriskie, Dave Zabriskie, Ryder, and Wiggins remains to be seen still. When the pressure to perform gets too great, I guess temptation can't be resisted


----------



## spookyload

stevesbike said:


> Hopefully, he'll just go away and not start a gran fondo - in my opinion anyone who rides in an ex-doper's gran fondo is also a db.


I doubt he will do a Gran Fondo, but he sure sells the **** out of his bike camp in Tucson.


----------



## Local Hero

spookyload said:


> How can anyone possibly be shocked by a Garmin rider testing positive? The team was founded on "reformed" or caught dopers. Look at the list of people on the team who have been caught. David Millar, Christian Vandevelde, Dave Zabriskie, Dave Zabriskie, Ryder, and Wiggins remains to be seen still. When the pressure to perform gets too great, I guess temptation can't be resisted


What about "all of the good" that Jonathan Vaughters has done for cycling?


----------



## stevesbike

Jwiffle said:


> Funny how this thread went from focusing on Tommy D's positive to focusing on JV's policies.
> 
> Appears to me TD got desperate and fell back on old ways (if he ever left them, I have no idea one way or the other)
> 
> As for JV saying the whole team would be fired for one doping positive and people getting up in arms over the fact that he isn't doing so--
> 
> Look up this word in the dictionary: hyperbole.
> 
> Anyone who thinks JV would have actually meant at the time to fire the whole team over one positive needs to learn how think a little more rationally. Obviously a statement made for rhetorical effect, not actual policy. Was that policy written in the team's by-laws? I seriously doubt it. In fact, he'd probably end up with 50 lawsuits if he actually tried to fire everyone.
> 
> Should JV be forced to leave because he made a hyperbolic statement about how against doping he stands? (Especially when it's obvious that it was hyperbole to begin with?) Some of you obviously think so. I don't. I don't think his staying means that he really was trying to hide dopers from the outset. I don't think his staying means he didn't actually believe in his cause. Rather, I think his statement says just how strongly he felt about the cause. I think he should continue to stay and fight doping. We may get a better look at how strongly JV feels about the cause if TD's B comes back positive. If I were JV, I'd sue TD for the beach of contract and the damage done to the team.


Sorry, but a stated policy that is repeated over and over in public isn't hyperbole. It was supposed to signal that Garmin was a new paradigm of clean cycling. JV staked his team on it and attracted sponsors because of it. No one is saying JV should be forced to leave - just that he made a claim and now reveals that it was BS. The problem is, other managers also scrambled to present their teams as a new model of clean cycling - here's one from 2007 about Riis and 

Company says it wants to help clean up cycling - latimes 

We know that was just a smokescreen - DZ, Hamilton, Basso to name just a few of the dopers on the team. So the problem now is that JV looks like just another lying team director who made big claims about a commitment to clean cycling but won't walk the walk when a policy he made is violated. Not sure why you think it was obvious hyperbole - it was a way to lure sponsors back. Unfortunately, JV is as unlikable a guy as TD, so chances are the team is going to implode anyway as sponsors will drop JV and force him out.


----------



## ibericb

Local Hero said:


> What about "all of the good" that Jonathan Vaughters has done for cycling?


An interesting perspective on Vaughters, from John Bradley at Velonews.


----------



## stevesbike

ibericb said:


> An interesting perspective on Vaughters, from John Bradley at Velonews.


it's already been posted in this thread - the trouble with it is that it just begs the question. How do we know JV has been a force for good? The same was said about Riis. He confessed like JV. He said he would dedicate his team to clean sport. Like JV. Turns out he was complicit in doping all that time. How do we know JV wasn't just hiding behind that mantle of clean sport? Some of the same characters, like Johnny Weltz, were helping doping with Riis are now working with JV. Maybe it's just better to clean house and ban past dopers from having any involvement with team management.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

stevesbike said:


> The same was said about Riis.


Really? I must have missed anyone saying Riis was a force for clean cycling

Do you think JV was running a team program and pushing his riders to dope while he was pretending to be clean?


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Really? I must have missed anyone saying Riis was a force for clean cycling


Is that what's important, saying that a team will be clean? 

Aside from his talk of being clean and hiring a bunch of confessed dopers, what has Vaughter's done to clean up cycling?

Vaughters wrote an nice article on doping -- http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html -- he talked about how it was a childhood dream to ride in le tour and the only way for him to not be a working stiff (like the rest of us suckers) was to dope. 

Is that his big contribution?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Is that what's important, saying that a team will be clean?
> 
> Aside from his talk of being clean and hiring a bunch of confessed dopers, what has Vaughter's done to clean up cycling?
> 
> Vaughters wrote an nice article on doping -- http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html -- he talked about how it was a childhood dream to ride in le tour and the only way for him to not be a working stiff (like the rest of us suckers) was to dope.
> 
> Is that his big contribution?


I think we can all agree his biggest contribution was pissin off the Armstrong groupies by telling the truth and getting his riders to tell the truth. For that we should all be grateful.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I think we can all agree his biggest contribution was pissin off the Armstrong groupies by telling the truth and getting his riders to tell the truth. For that we should all be grateful.


Well that's not much of a contribution. Nor does it justify Vaughters's enormous ego. 

If that's his best, cycling really would be better off without him.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Well that's not much of a contribution. Nor does it justify Vaughters's enormous ego.
> 
> If that's his best, cycling really would be better off without him.


:cryin::cryin::cryin::cryin::cryin::cryin::cryin:


----------



## Local Hero

Why are you crying? 


Vaughters was justifying his doping when he said this: _THEN, just short of finally living your childhood dream, you are told, either straight out or implicitly, by some coaches, mentors, even the boss, that you aren’t going to make it, unless you cheat._ 

Has anything changed? What has Vaughters (or anyone else) done to change this? Can we say that this is not currently happening?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Why are you crying?
> 
> 
> Vaughters was justifying his doping when he said this: _THEN, just short of finally living your childhood dream, you are told, either straight out or implicitly, by some coaches, mentors, even the boss, that you aren’t going to make it, unless you cheat._
> 
> Has anything changed? What has Vaughters (or anyone else) done to change this? Can we say that this is not currently happening?


He made a bunch of Armstrong groupies angry and bitter. I think we can all agree that is a good thing. :thumbsup:


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> He made a bunch of Armstrong groupies angry and bitter. I think we can all agree that is a good thing. :thumbsup:


That's not going to stick. 

Vaughters said: _So, let’s give our young athletes a level playing field, without doping. Let’s put our effort and resources into making sport fair, so that no athlete faces this decision ever again._

He said this while hiring from the generation that cheated their way to the top. Wouldn't he have set a better example by hiring young riders who never doped?

Wouldn't Vaughters have done better for cycling had he giving clean riders a chance? 

I don't hate Vaughters and I don't think he is a bad guy. I just find his words hollow. I also do not understand the lionization or his ego. Just what has he done to clean up the sport? What is so great about him?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> That's not going to stick.


Nah, it stuck

This guy was initially upset to find out the truth as well. He eventually got over it


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirō_Onoda


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nah, it stuck
> 
> This guy was initially upset to find out the truth as well. He eventually got over it
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirō_Onoda


Noted. 


Does anyone have anything intelligent to say here? 

Maybe it is too difficult to pinpoint Vaughters's past contributions and we can talk about why cycling needs him to stick around. He says that he is not staying for him but for others. What good, anti-doping work should we expect?

(Doctor Falsetti, don't feel obligated to answer this one. Let's give others a chance.)


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Noted.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have anything intelligent to say here?
> 
> Maybe it is too difficult to pinpoint Vaughters's past contributions and we can talk about why cycling needs him to stick around. He says that he is not staying for him but for others. What good, anti-doping work should we expect?
> 
> (Doctor Falsetti, don't feel obligated to answer this one. Let's give others a chance.)


Already posted multiple times. We know reading is not your thing but give it a try

Commentary: Vaughters and unintended consequences - VeloNews.com


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Already posted multiple times. We know reading is not your thing but give it a try
> 
> Commentary: Vaughters and unintended consequences - VeloNews.com


In fact, I did read that commentary and found it somewhat vacuous. Vaughters is called a_ force of good_. 

The only evidence of this goodness presented is that the author of the commentary was permitted to room with David Miller. Yes, transparency is good. But is Vaughters the only one to have done this? Can it be done without him? (Ie, if Vaughters left cycling, couldn't others continue with similar transparency?)

What else has Vaughters done that is so great? How about something in the past 5 years?

Also, the commentary asks a question many here have asked: _We should also ask him if, in light of the Danielson news, he maybe shouldn’t have been so willing to give former dopers a second chance. _

It is essentially what I said a few posts up. If Vaughters had been true to his word and wanted to give young clean cyclists a chance, why did he hire confessed dopers, riders from the worst generations of dopers?


----------



## stevesbike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Really? I must have missed anyone saying Riis was a force for clean cycling
> 
> Do you think JV was running a team program and pushing his riders to dope while he was pretending to be clean?


maybe you should actually read what people post. I had already posted one story that portrayed Riis in the same way as JV. Riis did a lot of PR to make it appear as though he was committed to clean sport while he was continuing the same old ways. I've also mentioned the people JV hired from Riis. Allen Lim is another. I'm not saying JV is doing the same thing. Just that now we can't tell because he's clearly not a man of his word. As Riis says, he doesn't have a lot of credibility right now. Either does JV.

Company says it wants to help clean up cycling - latimes


----------



## euro-trash

MMsRepBike said:


> Well he's a liar then and scum just like the cheaters. I just lost all respect for him and his team.


"just like the cheaters"? He is one of them. He was always complaining about others doping while he was juiced. He's always been slimy.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

stevesbike said:


> Riis did a lot of PR to make it appear as though he was committed to clean sport while he was continuing the same old ways.


Do you think JV was publicly anti-doping but privately encouraging/enabling his riders to dope like Riis was? 

If he was I could understand the anger, but I see no evidence of that.


----------



## Jwiffle

stevesbike said:


> Sorry, but a stated policy that is repeated over and over in public isn't hyperbole. It was supposed to signal that Garmin was a new paradigm of clean cycling. JV staked his team on it and attracted sponsors because of it. No one is saying JV should be forced to leave - just that he made a claim and now reveals that it was BS. The problem is, other managers also scrambled to present their teams as a new model of clean cycling - here's one from 2007 about Riis and
> 
> Company says it wants to help clean up cycling - latimes
> 
> We know that was just a smokescreen - DZ, Hamilton, Basso to name just a few of the dopers on the team. So the problem now is that JV looks like just another lying team director who made big claims about a commitment to clean cycling but won't walk the walk when a policy he made is violated. Not sure why you think it was obvious hyperbole - it was a way to lure sponsors back. Unfortunately, JV is as unlikable a guy as TD, so chances are the team is going to implode anyway as sponsors will drop JV and force him out.


Again, was it actually stated policy? Was it in the team's by-laws? Apparently from the quote provided earlier, it was in sponsors' contracts that they could get out with a single positive, which could potentially mean the team folding and everyone out of a job due to lack of funding. But that is not the same thing as "policy" that all riders will be fired if one tests positive. So his statement could therefore only be hyperbole, not policy, even if a journalist referred to it as such.

Maybe he shouldn't have spoken in hyperbole. But people do all the time, and they aren't construed as evil for doing so. But apparently some are not able to understand the concept.


----------



## Local Hero

Jwiffle said:


> Again, was it actually stated policy? Was it in the team's by-laws? Apparently from the quote provided earlier, it was in sponsors' contracts that they could get out with a single positive, which could potentially mean the team folding and everyone out of a job due to lack of funding. But that is not the same thing as "policy" that all riders will be fired if one tests positive. So his statement could therefore only be hyperbole, not policy, even if a journalist referred to it as such.
> 
> Maybe he shouldn't have spoken in hyperbole. But people do all the time, and they aren't construed as evil for doing so. But apparently some are not able to understand the concept.


It wasn't hyperbole.


----------



## Jwiffle

Local Hero said:


> It wasn't hyperbole.


Keep telling yourself that. Since it certainly sounds like a hyperbolic statement, and he didn't actually carry it out, the result demonstrates the statement was nothing more than hyperbole.


----------



## Local Hero

Jwiffle said:


> Keep telling yourself that. Since it certainly sounds like a hyperbolic statement, and he didn't actually carry it out, the result demonstrates the statement was nothing more than hyperbole.


Not even Vaughters is claiming that it was hyperbole. In essence Vaugthers is now saying _That was then and things have changed. I need to stay for the good of the team. _


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

With all the faux outrage you would think Vaughters kicks kittens puppies :cryin:

Some folks pretend JV is the worst manager in cycling. If that is the case then the sport is in better shape then I thought.

Vino is angry and is determined to get his title back

A brief history of Astana scandals - Cycling Weekly


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> With all the faux outrage you would think Vaughters kicks kittens puppies :cryin:
> 
> Some folks pretend JV is the worst manager in cycling. If that is the case then the sport is in better shape then I thought.
> 
> Vino is angry and is determined to get his title back
> 
> A brief history of Astana scandals - Cycling Weekly


When did Vaughters publicly state that his policy changed? 

What good has Vaughters done for cycling in the past five years? 

Why did Vaughters hire from a generation of confessed dopers, rather than give clean riders who never doped a chance?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> When did Vaughters publicly state that his policy changed?
> 
> What good has Vaughters done for cycling in the past five years?
> 
> Why did Vaughters hire from a generation of confessed dopers, rather than give clean riders who never doped a chance?


......broken record.


----------



## stevesbike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Do you think JV was publicly anti-doping but privately encouraging/enabling his riders to dope like Riis was?
> 
> If he was I could understand the anger, but I see no evidence of that.


The trouble is, there's no way of knowing now. The zero-tolerance policy was just a smokescreen. The real trouble - and what the Velonews article failed to point out - is that JV has only been STRATEGICALLY transparent. He releases just enough information to stay ahead of media releases, but it's always when something is about to be released elsewhere. He did this with his own doping confession, outing the riders who has testified in the Armstrong USADA case, and just before Rasmussen outed Ryder in his book. It was always PR. 

As for the insistence that his policy was hyperbole, I think someone needs to refresh themselves with the meaning of hyperbole. They are "exaggerated statements not meant to be taken literally." "Red Bull gives you wings" is hyperbole. What JV said about a failed drug test was taken as a measure of the strength of his commitment to clean sport. It wasn't hyperbole. It was a lie. Big difference.


----------



## love4himies

Interesting tweet from Lance:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/Vaughters">@Vaughters</a> those good people would be better off without you.</p>— Lance Armstrong (@lancearmstrong) <a href="https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/628631130078515200">August 4, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Wonder what he means by that??


----------



## love4himies

stevesbike said:


> It wasn't hyperbole. It was a lie. Big difference.


How do you know? How do you know what was said between JV and his mgt team when this went public? How do you know whether JV put in his resignation or not and was subsequently talked into staying?

Do you not think JV starting a team that had an anti-doping stance when the peloton was ripe with doping not a good thing for the sport? 

I personally believe that JV meant what he said because he truly had faith in his team. It's only too bad he resigned TommyD when he could have had Phil Gaimon, a much better rep for an anti doping team.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

love4himies said:


> It's only too bad he resigned TommyD when he could have had Phil Gaimon, a much better rep for an anti doping team.


JV did not have a choice between Phil and TD. Last year, when Phil's contract was up, TD's contract still had another year on it. This was TD's final year on his Garmin contract and he was not going to be resigned. He was looking for a new deal with another team but there was little interest from other teams


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

love4himies said:


> Interesting tweet from Lance:
> 
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/Vaughters">@Vaughters</a> those good people would be better off without you.</p>— Lance Armstrong (@lancearmstrong) <a href="https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/628631130078515200">August 4, 2015</a></blockquote>
> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
> 
> Wonder what he means by that??


It means that Lance is still bitter and angry. Far from being sorry he wants revenge. 

JV got his riders and staff to break the Omerta and tell the truth. Promised they would not be fired if they told the truth. This drives Lance crazy, truth is not his thing


----------



## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> JV did not have a choice between Phil and TD. Last year, when Phil's contract was up, TD's contract still had another year on it. This was TD's final year on his Garmin contract and he was not going to be resigned. He was looking for a new deal with another team but there was little interest from other teams


I thought I had read that TommyD was resigned last year???? Maybe it wasn't accurate.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

love4himies said:


> I thought I had read that TommyD was resigned last year???? Maybe it wasn't accurate.


Will check but I think he signed a 2 year deal after he won the 2013 tour of Utah and 3rd at Colorado.

Edit: yes, several public sources say TD already had a 2015 deal before the merger



> Contracts for current Garmin-Sharp riders who have them through 2015 — including Tom Danielson, Janier Acevedo and Alex Howes — will be honored.
> 
> "We felt ethically that the correct thing to do would be to honor the contracts at the terms that were signed," Vaughters said.


Slipstream Sports sponsorship with Cannondale is attempt to even cycling's playing field - The Denver Post


----------



## ibericb

It means Armstrong still hasn't learned to remain seated, and keep quiet.


----------



## stevesbike

love4himies said:


> How do you know? How do you know what was said between JV and his mgt team when this went public? How do you know whether JV put in his resignation or not and was subsequently talked into staying?
> 
> Do you not think JV starting a team that had an anti-doping stance when the peloton was ripe with doping not a good thing for the sport?
> 
> I personally believe that JV meant what he said because he truly had faith in his team. It's only too bad he resigned TommyD when he could have had Phil Gaimon, a much better rep for an anti doping team.


Everyone who is remotely connected to professional cycling knows what JV meant by his policy. 

Lots of people were starting a team with an anti-doping stance around the same time. I've already mentioned Riis and provided links to stories about it.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

stevesbike said:


> Everyone who is remotely connected to professional cycling knows what JV meant by his policy.
> 
> Lots of people were starting a team with an anti-doping stance around the same time. I've already mentioned Riis and provided links to stories about it.


So you think JV was lying about being against doping? That he was actually encouraging it privately like Riis was?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

A Rough Road for Cycling?s Clean Team - WSJ



> ‘This team is based on clean racing,’ ‘this team is based on ethical racing and nothing will change that’…that’s a very high-horse position,” Vaughters said in a telephone interview Saturday. “And there are a lot of people basically just sitting back not liking that and waiting for a moment for that to fail…those people are having their moment of glory right now.





> we realized that our position was extremely high-risk in a sport that tests so much and has had so many problems and culturally has had this issue embedded in it for such a long time.”





> “Does that make it the wrong decision to really try to push that agenda forward?” Vaughters asked. “I don’t think so. Do we have to take the backlash right now and basically…eat some humble pie? Yup. Absolutely. We do.”





> Vaughters said it was “embarrassing” to backtrack on what he said was a statement purposefully designed to scare his own riders, but in conversations with Ellis and others he realized a shutdown would affect too many individuals who worked for the team. He estimated that Cannondale-Garmin employed and contracted around 90 people.
> 
> “To basically punt that all out the window because I’m feeling a sense of personal embarrassment and a need to make good on something I put out there publicly? Sorry,” Vaughters said. “It’s better I just basically say, ‘I’m sticking with this. Doug’s sticking with this. The team is going forward.’ ”


Phil Gaimon



> “There are a couple of teams and owners I think cycling would be better off without, but [Cannondale-Garmin] isn’t one of them.”


----------



## love4himies

Thanks for posting that Dr. F. I can't read the article in the link without subscribing to the WSJ.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

love4himies said:


> Thanks for posting that Dr. F. I can't read the article in the link without subscribing to the WSJ.


This link should work

A Rough Road for Cycling’s Clean Team - WSJ


----------



## SicBith

Doctor Falsetti said:


> This link should work
> 
> A Rough Road for Cycling’s Clean Team - WSJ


Are you one of those guys having a glory moment right now?


----------



## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> This link should work
> 
> A Rough Road for Cycling’s Clean Team - WSJ


Nope, I can only read the first couple of lines, then it says I have to subscribe or log in to continue on.


----------



## ibericb

love4himies said:


> Nope, I can only read the first couple of lines, then it says I have to subscribe or log in to continue on.


It worked for me - the rest of the article is below the Subscribe banner - keep scrolling.


----------



## love4himies

ibericb said:


> It worked for me - the rest of the article is below the Subscribe banner - keep scrolling.


No there is no article below. I just tried googling it rather than following the link and I was able to read it. Weird.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> ......broken record.


No answers?


Doctor Falsetti said:


> JV did not have a choice between Phil and TD.


Vaughters had a choice between hiring young clean riders and a bunch of confessed dopers. This is entirely inconsistent with and contradictory to clean cycling. 




Doctor Falsetti said:


> So you think JV was lying about being against doping?


If Vaughters were truly against doping he would have hired clean riders. 

Instead he hired a bunch of people who--according to Vaughters's own words--cheated their way up and forced clean racers out of the sport. 

It was bad enough when these dopers took jobs from clean guys the first time. But that was, for the most part, out of Vaughters's control. Only when Vaughters was in control, he allowed the dopers to take jobs from clean riders a second time. 




Vaughters admits to bluffing, lying: _Vaughters said it was “embarrassing” to backtrack on what he said was a statement purposefully designed to scare his own riders._

1) Was his statement designed for one purpose, to scare his own riders? Or did it have another purpose, to help secure sponsors? 

2) How are we supposed to know when Vaughters is bluffing/lying and telling the truth? 

3) How well did Vaughters's bluff/lie work?


----------



## David Loving

They ALL lie about doping. Doping is what makes pro cycling work, just like professional wrestling. Doping makes the riders look super human so the tours are exciting. EDIT to say: I just accept it and follow the sport. I do enjoy the discussions and the expertise shown in this thread by the comments. It is interesting to hear the discussions of denial from the fans. Would that the riders were clean, but it is not so.


----------



## Ryder's

It wasn't hyperbole it was a somewhat lame sales pitch, nothing more than a Kum Bah Yah refrain or chant to attract the big money and to guarantee himself a few more years as a highly paid knucklehead.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> No answers?


Been answered multiple times. Your little game of pretending it hasn't got old a couple months ago


----------



## love4himies

I guess Tommy wasn't up to date on the new testing:

The test that caught Tom Danielson - VeloNews.com



> The ratio between carbon-12 and carbon-13 is constant within an individual. This is the crux of the CIR test: Labs compare the ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-13 in an individual’s testosterone with the carbon-12/carbon-13 ratio in some other, non-performance-enhancing compound, like cholesterol. The two ratios should match. If they don’t, that’s a positive test.
> 
> USADA determined that the ratio between carbon-12 and carbon-13 isotopes in Danielson’s testosterone molecules did not match the ratio that occurred naturally in the rest of his body. A synthetic form of the hormone had to be present. How it got there will be the crux of Danielson’s defense, but its presence is undisputed thanks to CIR.





> Traditionally, anti-doping agencies used CIR when other intelligence suggested it would return a positive result. That often meant pairing it with the T/E test — run the cheaper version first, and if it produces a suspicious result, bring in CIR for confirmation.
> 
> That traditional method, which suffered from the overnight testing loophole, has changed. CIR is now regularly being used independently of the T/E test.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

David Loving said:


> They ALL lie about doping. Doping is what makes pro cycling work, just like professional wrestling. Doping makes the riders look super human so the tours are exciting.


"Doping" is a broad term. It is not like there is a level playing field. 

EPO brought in some of the most boring Tours in history. Indurian, Riis, Ullrich, Armstrong. Zzzzzz. Most were settled by the 1st mountain top finish. Guys like Armstrong spent over $1,000,000 on their doping programs to insure the playing field was not level and the racing was boring.


----------



## ibericb

David Loving said:


> They ALL lie about doping. Doping is what makes pro cycling work, just like professional wrestling.


That's fine, until the big money sponsors get fed up and leave the game, as some have done and others have threatened to do. Then pro cycling, at least road racing, won't work so well, at least until someone figures out how to charge admission, and create enough of a draw to have regular weekly events with major broadcast coverage, and a share in the advertising revenues. There are other more realistic proposals on how to change the business model being advanced as well.


----------



## ibericb

CIR testing has been around for awhile. It was pivotal in nailing Landis in 2006. It has only been refined since the basic test was developed. IF TD, or whoever was advising him, wasn't aware of it, they would have to be living under a rather large rock.


----------



## tranzformer

ibericb said:


> CIR testing has been around for awhile. It was pivotal in nailing Landis in 2006. It has only been refined since the basic test was developed.


If you read the VeloNews article you would have seen they already mentioned that.

"Floyd Landis had a ratio of 11:1 when he was nabbed by both the T/E ratio test and CIR in 2006 with a sample taken during the Tour de France."


----------



## ibericb

tranzformer said:


> If you read the VeloNews article you would have seen they already mentioned that.
> 
> "Floyd Landis had a ratio of 11:1 when he was nabbed by both the T/E ratio test and CIR in 2006 with a sample taken during the Tour de France."


What the article specifically cites for Landis (and you quote ), is the original T/E ratIo analysis, NOT CIR analysis. CIR was used against Landis as well. It's pretty conclusive.


----------



## tranzformer

ibericb said:


> What the article specifically cites for Landis is the original T/E rato, not CIR. CIR was used against Landis as well. It's pretty conclusive.


"*Floyd Landis* had a ratio of 11:1 when he was *nabbed by both the T/E ratio test and CIR in 2006* with a sample taken during the Tour de France."


----------



## deviousalex

https://twitter.com/MansfieldCat/status/629387169329577985

"Don't hold your breath".

If TD did admit it to JV and JV wants to set things right he should have TD give up his two previous Utah results.


----------



## ibericb

If the A test was indicative of timing, we'll be waiting about 2 more weeks. Then there will be all the noise about TD's supplements and testing, denials, etc., etc. This will be something like Landis redux.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Been answered multiple times. Your little game of pretending it hasn't got old a couple months ago


I asked questions. You said the answers were in an article and posted a link. I showed that very article asks the same questions that I asked. Are you playing games? 

I question what Vaughters has done for clean cycling in the past 5 years, why Vaughters hired dopers (rather than select from a younger, cleaner generation), and I question the inconsistencies between Vaughters's policies and stated policies. 

Nothing I ask has been answered.

Now rather than continue to try to make this about me (please stop trying to make this about me), let's talk about Vaughters.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> I asked questions. You said the answers were in an article and posted a link. I showed that very article asks the same questions that I asked. Are you playing games?
> 
> I question what Vaughters has done for clean cycling in the past 5 years, why Vaughters hired dopers (rather than select from a younger, cleaner generation), and I question the inconsistencies between Vaughters's policies and stated policies.
> 
> Nothing I ask has been answered.
> 
> Now rather than continue to try to make this about me (please stop trying to make this about me), let's talk about Vaughters.


Yes, your questions have been answered several times. The WSJ article answered them, I answered them, the Velonews article answered them, the Outside article answered them

Seriously, this game is getting old. You need to come up with a new one.


----------



## love4himies

ibericb said:


> CIR testing has been around for awhile. It was pivotal in nailing Landis in 2006. It has only been refined since the basic test was developed. IF TD, or whoever was advising him, wasn't aware of it, they would have to be living under a rather large rock.


Yes, the article states that, but it also states that they would use the traditional testing first, then if it failed they did the CIR testing. The traditional testing was victim to the overnight process, but with them just doing the CIR testing, there is no hiding the use of synthetic testosterone.


----------



## stevesbike

ibericb said:


> What the article specifically cites for Landis (and you quote ), is the original T/E ratIo analysis, NOT CIR analysis. CIR was used against Landis as well. It's pretty conclusive.


depends what you mean by "conclusive." Much of the Landis defense was focused on both operator error since the CIR protocol is complex and runs over a few days and also on its interpretation. Because of its sensitivity, it could also be consistent with trace amounts of synthetic testosterone from a contaminated supplement, though that brings up other issues.


----------



## love4himies

deviousalex said:


> https://twitter.com/MansfieldCat/status/629387169329577985
> 
> "Don't hold your breath".
> 
> If TD did admit it to JV and JV wants to set things right he should have TD give up his two previous Utah results.


But what if he wasn't doping then?


----------



## ibericb

love4himies said:


> Yes, the article states that, but it also states that they would use the traditional testing first, then if it failed they did the CIR testing. The traditional testing was victim to the overnight process, but with them just doing the CIR testing, there is no hiding the use of synthetic testosterone.


CIR testing is expensive, and not a routine test done by the usual lab. I don't believe it is done unless something looks unusual in the more standard testosterone and T/E assays. My suspicion would be that when testing the B sample the exact same protocol would be followed as was used in A, hence the time. There's a lot of process when someone's future is on the line.


----------



## deviousalex

love4himies said:


> But what if he wasn't doping then?


That's up to JV to figure out. They say they conduct their own internal investigations now it's time to conduct one.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

ibericb said:


> CIR testing is expensive, and not a routine test done by the usual lab. I don't believe it is done unless something looks unusual in the more standard testosterone and T/E assays. My suspicion would be that when testing the B sample the exact same protocol would be followed as was used in A, hence the time. There's a lot of process when someone's future is on the line.


It is more common these days. Used to be run as a back up but now is often run on the first test.


----------



## ibericb

Doctor Falsetti said:


> It is more common these days. Used to be run as a back up but now is often run on the first test.


That could be. It may depend on the capabilities of the lab that initially gets the sample (I doubt all are equally capable), as well as the cost structure to test, and who's paying the bills. If the wanted to do it right they would send both the A and B blindly to a second lab, and have both tested, first to confirm the A findings (QA check on the first lab), and then to assess B.


----------



## stevesbike

ibericb said:


> CIR testing is expensive, and not a routine test done by the usual lab. I don't believe it is done unless something looks unusual in the more standard testosterone and T/E assays. My suspicion would be that when testing the B sample the exact same protocol would be followed as was used in A, hence the time. There's a lot of process when someone's future is on the line.


CIR testing is done in a targeted manner now since the T/E assays have a limited time window. TD must have been on their targeted list, or someone sent some tip about him. 

The B sample takes extra time in part because the rider is allowed to have someone observe the process, which can involve a lot of haggling about access.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

stevesbike said:


> CIR testing is done in a targeted manner now since the T/E assays have a limited time window. TD must have been on their targeted list, or someone sent some tip about him.
> 
> The B sample takes extra time in part because the rider is allowed to have someone observe the process, which can involve a lot of haggling about access.


I thought the same but USADA says no



> USADA representative confirmed CIR’s independent use, saying, “Not speaking to any athlete specifically, I can tell you that CIR is regularly used and is not used only as a follow-up to T/E ratio.”


----------



## Local Hero

It's not just Armstrong giving Vaughters crap. Read the pages and pages of negative tweets: https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/628554861865529344
_
mm what happened to my word is my bond, mr Vaughters?

If there were anyone who truly bought his own BS it is @Vaughters

Know what else hurts people? Continually hiring dopers. If you/the team don't go away please ACTUALLY hire the next gen this time

Garmin hires: Miller, VandeVelde, DZ, Danielson, Ryder, Dekker, etc etc etc. All will influence any next gen hires.

@Vaughters selfishly? Say what you mean JV? Just say what you mean? Stop the bullshit once and for all.

@Vaughters was there anything different about Slipstream after all?

You've hurt plenty of good people already (IEphilgaimon) @Vaughters & play victim like @tomdanielson and go back on your word. 

@Vaughters he's saying, I'd walk away but to many people need me. Hubris in crisis, totally self congratulatory.

@Vaughters don’t you guys do internal testing? Didn’t you pick up any adverse findings?

@Vaughters you guys should stop acting like the victim.

@Vaughters douchehole response JV. Man up and call it what it is. Selfishly you will push on. All your rhetoric is even more empty now.

@Vaughters what happens if another of your riders gets popped ?

@Vaughters Credibility vs. MILLIONS OF YUMMY DOLLARS!! Life's hard choices.

@Vaughters I've always been a fan of you and your team. But if you were no longer serious about your pledge, why did you make it?

@Vaughters That's BS. You would do more good for cycling by disbanding the team

@Vaughters can you man up and respond? Be the guiding light you want to be. People are looking up to you, unless you force us to look down
_


----------



## Local Hero

deviousalex said:


> That's up to JV to figure out. They say they conduct their own internal investigations now it's time to conduct one.


Given the validity of their internal testing, I wouldn't put too much faith in their internal investigations.


----------



## ibericb

Local Hero said:


> Given the validity of their internal testing, I wouldn't put too much faith in their internal investigations.


Unless they have been including CIR analysis, which I would find truly surprising, then it may well not have been detected. Then there is the issue of timing relative to dosing. Unless you know the details on both you really can't challenge the "validity" of their internal monitoring program. I would suspect that, if they are serious about it, those issues specifically will come up as areas for improvement.


----------



## Local Hero

We can judge the validity of their internal testing protocol by the inability to detect Danielson's PED usage. The proof is in the pudding.


----------



## asgelle

Local Hero said:


> We can judge the validity of their internal testing protocol by the inability to detect Danielson's PED usage. The proof is in the pudding.


It's probably pointless, but Cannonade have said they've adjusted their internal testing to complement UCI and ADA testing rather than duplicate it. In other words, they may have dropped CIR internally when USADA started.


----------



## Local Hero

I see.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> It's not just Armstrong giving Vaughters crap. Read the pages and pages of negative tweets: https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/628554861865529344
> _
> _


_

Ahhh yes, Twitter is an accurate reflection of how the public feels. President Trump says this all the time._


----------



## ibericb

Local Hero said:


> We can judge the validity of their internal testing protocol by the inability to detect Danielson's PED usage. The proof is in the pudding.


Not really, at least not for analytical testing. It's not about validity of what has been done. It's a different issue, and until you know what the internal programs was designed to test for and accomplish, and why TD's use wasn't detected, you can't judge the validity of the internal testing programs. You can attack it for sure, but you can't legitimately judge the validity of the program.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

ibericb said:


> Not really, at least not for analytical testing. It's not about validity of what has been done. It's a different issue, and until you know what the internal programs was designed to test for and accomplish, and why TD's use wasn't detected, you can't judge the validity of the internal testing programs. You can attack it for sure, but you can't legitimately judge the validity of the program.


True. The IRMS test is complicated, expensive, and has only recently been used by USADA as a 1st round test. Not surprising that the internal testing did not pick it up. 

A good internal testing program needs to focus more then just on raw tests. As a World Tour team Slipstreams riders get tested a lot. WADA/UCI is going to be more accurate and consistent. Better to let them do it. 

Where a team should focus their efforts is in 

1. Due diligence with new riders
2. Watching power profiles of existing riders to look for sudden changes that could suggest target testing is needed. 

Slipstream has an interesting way of testing possible signings. If a rider is showing good form they invite them in for surprise power and blood testing. They can then see what the rider is capable of when on form and test for any irregularities. 

Navardauskas is a good example of this. As an amateur he was shredding the French circuit but few Pro Teams would touch him as he was written off as another Eastern European doper. Garmin brought him in several times for surprise testing and found he blood values were completely normal and he could crush watts. They got him for next to nothing

When Jonathan Tiernan-Locke was shredding early season French races they also called him in, but he always had an excuse. Couldn't make it. When he finally did come in his blood values were normal, but so were his watts. He sucked. Garmin lost interest.

Sky never even tested him until after they signed him. Right after the Worlds he had a 127 Off Score in a Sky internal test. Sky did nothing. Garmin would have sat him and likely would have killed his contract. Sky did nothing. Likely because they did not know what an off score is


----------



## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> True. The IRMS test is complicated, expensive, and has only recently been used by USADA as a 1st round test. Not surprising that the internal testing did not pick it up.
> 
> A good internal testing program needs to focus more then just on raw tests. As a World Tour team Slipstreams riders get tested a lot. WADA/UCI is going to be more accurate and consistent. Better to let them do it.
> 
> Where a team should focus their efforts is in
> 
> 1. Due diligence with new riders
> 2. Watching power profiles of existing riders to look for sudden changes that could suggest target testing is needed.
> 
> Slipstream has an interesting way of testing possible signings. If a rider is showing good form they invite them in for surprise power and blood testing. They can then see what the rider is capable of when on form and test for any irregularities.
> 
> Navardauskas is a good example of this. As an amateur he was shredding the French circuit but few Pro Teams would touch him as he was written off as another Eastern European doper. Garmin brought him in several times for surprise testing and found he blood values were completely normal and he could crush watts. They got him for next to nothing
> 
> When Jonathan Tiernan-Locke was shredding early season French races they also called him in, but he always had an excuse. Couldn't make it. When he finally did come in his blood values were normal, but so were his watts. He sucked. Garmin lost interest.
> 
> Sky never even tested him until after they signed him. Right after the Worlds he had a 127 Off Score in a Sky internal test. Sky did nothing. Garmin would have sat him and likely would have killed his contract. Sky did nothing. Likely because they did not know what an off score is


So in essence what you are saying is that Cannondale tries to do their due diligence to sign clean riders and Sky doesn't give a crap unless the rider gets caught.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

love4himies said:


> So in essence what you are saying is that Cannondale tries to do their due diligence to sign clean riders and Sky doesn't give a crap unless the rider gets caught.


I wouldn't say that. 

In recent years Sky has made a habit of hiring staff with no background in cycling. I wonder if any of even knew what an off score was. Hard to say if it was stupidity or malice. I lean toward stupidity. 

JTL burned them bad. I think they have overcompensated since then. Their poorly managed reaction to Heano's blood values is evidence of that.


----------



## love4himies

Not TommyD related, but testosterone testing related:

Conte says coverup protected big stars at Seoul Games | The Japan Times



> After serving four months in a California prison and being released in the spring of 2006, Conte became an active and outspoken anti-doping advocate He’s appeared on a number of TV and radio programs. He’s been interviewed by a wide range of print publications and other news outlets. He’s met with USADA and WADA officials, offering advice and tips to strengthen their drug testing programs.
> 
> In his back-and-forth talks with Dick Pound, the founding president of WADA, in 2012, Conte told the influential Canadian that “the biggest loophole that existed was the T/E ratio, and the fact that these WADA labs were not for the most part using the carbon isotope ratio (CRI) test as a screen test, but only as a confirmatory test. Meaning once you had, like say, (disgraced Tour de France cyclist) Floyd Landis an 11:1 T/E ratio, then they would take the samples and the carbon isotope ratio as a confirmatory test so they would have a stronger case when they went to arbitration.
> 
> “But I believe that the actual amount of screening or if they got any intelligence that somebody was using testosterone, less than 5 percent and likely less than 1 percent of the urine tests that were performed were where they were using this carbon isotope ratio test.


(Interesting read on the corruption in Athletics too.)


----------



## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I wouldn't say that.
> 
> In recent years Sky has made a habit of hiring staff with no background in cycling. I wonder if any of even knew what an off score was. Hard to say if it was stupidity or malice. I lean toward stupidity.
> 
> JTL burned them bad. I think they have overcompensated since then. Their poorly managed reaction to Heano's blood values is evidence of that.


"Stupidity" and the "lack of cycling background" doesn't produce GCs for the last 3 of 4 years at the ToF. And if not for Froome's crash last year, could have been 4 for 4. And I think Henao's blood value spin by stating they are "contracting out research" was brilliant to get anti doping fans off their back. BTW do you know if they released the results of that research to the public??? Too bad Cannondale didn't have access to their spin doctor before this mess with TommyD came out.


----------



## stevesbike

love4himies said:


> "Stupidity" and the "lack of cycling background" doesn't produce GCs for the last 3 of 4 years at the ToF. And if not for Froome's crash last year, could have been 4 for 4. And I think Henao's blood value spin by stating they are "contracting out research" was brilliant to get anti doping fans off their back. BTW do you know if they released the results of that research to the public??? Too bad Cannondale didn't have access to their spin doctor before this mess with TommyD came out.


This is a Tommy D thread. If you want to discuss Sky (which seems to inevitably happen in every doping thread) start a new thread.


----------



## love4himies

love4himies said:


> "Stupidity" and the "lack of cycling background" doesn't produce GCs for the last 3 of 4 years at the ToF. And if not for Froome's crash last year, could have been 4 for 4. And I think Henao's blood value spin by stating they are "contracting out research" was brilliant to get anti doping fans off their back. BTW do you know if they released the results of that research to the public??? Too bad Cannondale didn't have access to their spin doctor before this mess with TommyD came out.





stevesbike said:


> This is a Tommy D thread. If you want to discuss Sky (which seems to inevitably happen in every doping thread) start a new thread.


I see TommyD in my post. Don't know what your problem is.


----------



## ibericb

Doctor Falsetti said:


> ...
> Where a team should focus their efforts is in
> 
> 1. Due diligence with new riders
> 2. Watching power profiles of existing riders to look for sudden changes that could suggest target testing is needed.


The issue with that is performance testing (some version of a power profile) would likely be its limited scope, along with the debatable effects on direct performance measures of many PED's. I doubt it would pick up on, for example, the use of testosterone, which has been used primarily as a recovery aid. Would power profiles show clear effects for, say clenbuterol, or hGH?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

ibericb said:


> The issue with that is performance testing (some version of a power profile) would likely be its limited scope, along with the debatable effects on direct performance measures of many PED's. I doubt it would pick up on, for example, the use of testosterone, which has been used primarily as a recovery aid. Would power profiles show clear effects for, say clenbuterol, or hGH?


True. 

Clen is used to drop weight and maintain power so there could be an element of that. Power is used as an additional data point that can be useful if coupled with a blood/steroid profile


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

love4himies said:


> "Stupidity" and the "lack of cycling background" doesn't produce GCs for the last 3 of 4 years at the ToF. And if not for Froome's crash last year, could have been 4 for 4. And I think Henao's blood value spin by stating they are "contracting out research" was brilliant to get anti doping fans off their back. BTW do you know if they released the results of that research to the public??? Too bad Cannondale didn't have access to their spin doctor before this mess with TommyD came out.


The rider that won those races was not part of Sky's core system. He was an no-name domestique until he exploded onto the scene at the Vuelta. He did not work with Kerrison until over a year later and he has not improved since working with him. 

If it wasn't for Froome and Wiggins Sky would be a massive, expensive, failure.......but that is for another thread


----------



## spade2you

Any updates? I have been swamped with work and moving to another house.


----------



## love4himies

spade2you said:


> Any updates? I have been swamped with work and moving to another house.


Haven't heard a thing all is quiet in Twitter World.


----------



## ibericb

spade2you said:


> Any updates? I have been swamped with work and moving to another house.


Nada.


----------



## AJL

Could take a while since the Athlete has the right for him/herself or a representative to be present for the 'B' sample test.


----------



## spade2you

Fair enough. Thanks. Ok, back to packing up boxes n' stuff.


----------



## Local Hero

Has this been posted? 

Tom Danielson's doping charge


_News of Tom Danielson’s return of a positive ‘A’ sample for synthetic testosterone has been met with a whole lot of foot shuffling and shoe gazing by a large portion of just about everyone connected to professional cycling on the Anglo side of things. Which is not surprising really, as Danielson is ‘one of the good guys’ from that ‘good team’ that is Cannondale-Garmin. 

It’s the same team that is run by a man who made a pro cycling career out of cheating thanks to some stuff in a needle, Jonathan Vaughters. The same team that launched themselves as the ‘clean team’ but then later had to ‘admit’ (how slippery language can be eh?) that three of their riders who paraded themselves as clean (Vande Velde, Zabriskie and Danielson) were in fact nothing of the sort. It’s that same team that already had David Millar and Thomas Dekker, both previously-caught dopers, on the team. And yes, it’s the same team that has had Ryder Hesjedal on the staff since 2008, the guy who was forced to confess in 2013 when the gun was at his temple (ah that is better!) that he had doped thanks to information contained in Michael Rasmussen’s book released the same year.

So, just to reiterate, it’s a team full of juicers. But they’re ‘good’ juicers. _


----------



## Local Hero

_Jonathan Vaughters is similarly guilty of the same mental schism when it comes to hiring riders. He explained this at the same time that he ‘admitted’ that Danielson, Zabriskie and Vande Velde were dopers.

“CVV (Vande Velde), Zabriskie, Danielson, while all clearly have a past, and from an ethical standpoint are no different from JJ [Jaksche the former Telekom rider], there is a very pragmatic difference. That difference is performance based. Basically, I knew from what my time at USPS, how ‘inside’ or not those riders were. Based on this, I knew their transgressions, while ethically the same as JJ’s, were much less in terms of enhancing performance. Therefore, I knew they could perform close to their enhanced level, clean.” 

So, let’s get this right. It’s ok to dope a little because you’re a more naturally gifted rider, than a donkey who is not? Or, alternatively, it’s ok to dope a lot but if the dope doesn’t affect you and your performance is not terribly enhanced as a result, you are in the running for a team on Cannondale-Garmin? As long as you are good enough to get on the team clean, whether you doped or not in your past is not a very big deal?_


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> it’s a team full of juicers. But they’re ‘good’ juicers. [/I]


Full of juicers? Besides Danielson and Ryder what juicers are on the team?


----------



## deviousalex

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Full of juicers? Besides Danielson and Ryder what juicers are on the team?


A lot of them were, but are now retired. Zabriskie, Vande Velde, David Millar.


----------



## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Full of juicers? Besides Danielson and Ryder what juicers are on the team?


And pretty sure we can eliminate at least Danielson as being on the team very shortly, if not both.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

love4himies said:


> And pretty sure we can eliminate at least Danielson as being on the team very shortly, if not both.


Yeah, he is out. Even if he did not test positive he was done. So is Ryder.


----------



## love4himies

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yeah, he is out. Even if he did not test positive he was done. So is Ryder.


Why Ryder?


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Full of juicers? Besides Danielson and Ryder what juicers are on the team?


Read it for yourself: Tom Danielson's doping charge


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Read it for yourself: Tom Danielson's doping charge


Lots of stuff about guys who are not on the team. 

Funny how he says Ryder was "forced to admit" doping. Actually Ryder admitted doping to the people who matter, the Canadian ADA, years ago. He did it voluntarily. He was not forced.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Lots of stuff about guys who are not on the team.


Yes, lots of guys who doped and took spots from up and coming clean riders have since retired. 



> Ryder admitted doping to the people who matter, the Canadian ADA, years ago.


The fans don't matter :/


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Yes, lots of guys who doped and took spots from up and coming clean riders have since retired.
> 
> The fans don't matter :/


Lots? Over the last 12 years Slipstream has employed a couple hundred riders. How many of those were dopers? Lots? 

A press release to the fans is not under oath. Fans do not sanction. Sorry if you feel left out but talking to WADA, voluntarily, under oath matters.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Lots? Over the last 12 years Slipstream has employed a couple hundred riders. How many of those were dopers? Lots?


Yes, lots. 

But if it is even one rider who has their chance as a neo pro taken away by a doper, isn't that too many? 



> A press release to the fans is not under oath. Fans do not sanction. Sorry if you feel left out but talking to WADA, voluntarily, under oath matters.


Do you think that Vaughters feels the same way about press releases when it comes to doping policies? 

I guess that's like when Vaugthers said to the New York Times, "If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired."

Lot's of transparency there.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Yes, lots.
> 
> But if it is even one rider who has their chance as a neo pro taken away by a doper, isn't that too many?
> 
> Do you think that Vaughters feels the same way about press releases when it comes to doping policies?
> 
> I guess that's like when Vaugthers said to the New York Times, "If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired."
> 
> Lot's of transparency there.


Do all former dopers who come clean and tell the truth make you angry or just the ones that ride for JV?


----------



## Alaska Mike

I think a lot of people just don't like JV. 
Like Sky, I like some of the riders, I just can't stand the team. Maybe it was the argyle, or the sideburns, or the "cleaner than thou" image they tried to portray... My biases and impressions, for sure.

At the end of the day, I think they have been good for cycling. I think JV offers some very interesting ideas about the future of the sport, and I certainly prefer his management to that of Vino or Riis. If you're going to have former dopers running teams, he's the lesser of two evils by far. I'd rather see Slipstream in the sport than out.

With Martin moving on, it will be interesting to see how the re-shape themselves.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Alaska Mike said:


> With Martin moving on, it will be interesting to see how the re-shape themselves.


And Ryder going to Trek. Wonder if people will cry that Trek are a "Team filled with dopers"?

Slipstream must be hopeful that some of the young guys, like Joe D, step up as on paper the team for next year is pretty weak.


----------



## Alaska Mike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> And Ryder going to Trek. Wonder if people will cry that Trek are a "Team filled with dopers"?


Um, that would just be stating the obvious.

There isn't a whole lot of trust placed in any team these days, and the ones that protest the loudest about how "clean" they are usually invite a fair amount of skepticism. That's the bed the sport has made.


----------



## mapeiboy

MMsRepBike said:


> Well he's a liar then and scum just like the cheaters. I just lost all respect for him and his team.


Why you guys keep your head in the sand is beyond me . Just remember they all cheat from day one and if they say otherwise they are lying .


----------



## asgelle

mapeiboy said:


> Just remember they all cheat from day one and if they say otherwise they are lying .


The sworn testimony in the reasoned decision says otherwise, but I think you're more reliable.


----------



## love4himies

Any solid rumors on what is happening with his case?


----------



## BacDoc

asgelle said:


> The sworn testimony in the reasoned decision says otherwise, but I think you're more reliable.


HaHa! That is funny!

To me mapeiboy is just as reliable as sworn testimony, unless you believe :

"I've never tested positive for PED's"

"I've never had sexual relations with that woman"

And the political promises:

"You can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan"


----------



## Fireform

In my view people are either working to clean up the sport or working to undermine that effort. JV has been on the clean side of that battle, and that makes him a good guy in my book. Has he made mistakes? Yes. Is he perfect? No. Nobody gets everything right every time, but his heart appears to be in the right place.


----------



## MMsRepBike

The confusing case of Tom Danielson - VeloNews.com



> USADA says it has tested Danielson's B sample, but it won't reveal the results, which leaves us with more questions than answers.


----------



## CabDoctor

MMsRepBike said:


> The confusing case of Tom Danielson - VeloNews.com



And on November 6, United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) spokesperson Annie Skinner confirmed that Danielson’s B sample had been tested and that it had confirmed the results of the A test.
Read more at The confusing case of Tom Danielson - VeloNews.com


----------



## ibericb

The last sentence of the VeloNews article probably nails it:

_"At 37 years old, with a second offense against him and no contract for 2016, Danielson will likely never again race at the sport’s highest level, if at all._


Maybe he can get work as a commentator for Universal Sports. Oh wait ... nevermind.


----------



## Alaska Mike

I hate to say it, but I almost buy the DHEA contamination bit Catlin threw in there. Doesn't mean I want him in or around the sport, but it's plausible.

He's gone, and that works for me.


----------



## Handbrake

ibericb said:


> Maybe he can get work as a commentator for Universal Sports. Oh wait ... nevermind.


Nah, what he should do is start up a team under the guise of taking a hard line stance against doping, citing as evidence of his qualifications his own repeated doping offenses. The same ones that actually allowed him to have the career that warrants being associated with a team in a managerial capacity.

He can claim this uniquely qualifies him to ensure a clean sport.

Bizarrely, many hopefuls-for-a-clean-sport will buy this and line up to be fleeced, despite his hiring various former dope cheats as riders.

He could take over as Astana's Chief of Communication. They are already on the straight and narrow but a little more affirmation can't hurt?


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## J-Flo

Wow, I just read through this whole thread looking for news, and . . . there isn't any?

How strange.

As for this:


stevesbike said:


> Hopefully, he'll just go away and not start a gran fondo - in my opinion anyone who rides in an ex-doper's gran fondo is also a db.


I'm sure you have good reasons for wanting the ex-dopers to suffer the fires of damnation, and I'm sure many of them deserve it, but it's not cool to call other people (i.e., me) names just for joining a terrific mass ride and having a great time on the bike for charitable causes.


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## JackDaniels

TD is saying his ex-wife intentionally spiked him. Meanwhile he's KOMing every uphill around Boulder.


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## deviousalex

JackDaniels said:


> TD is saying his ex-wife intentionally spiked him. Meanwhile he's KOMing every uphill around Boulder.


Strava needs a known doper badge like they have a Pro badge.


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## mpre53

JackDaniels said:


> TD is saying his ex-wife intentionally spiked him. Meanwhile he's KOMing every uphill around Boulder.


Can you blame a guy for making lemonade out of lemons? When you get sabotaged, why not make the most of it? :lol:


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## ibericb

Hoping for his sake he has something to back that up, like an admission along with some consistent analytical data.


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## DaveLeeNC

love4himies said:


> No there is no article below. I just tried googling it rather than following the link and I was able to read it. Weird.


Behind the times here - catching up on some reading. 

FWIW, the Wall Street Journal Online requires a subscription. HOWEVER, they would be relegated to page 1054 of Google searches if only subscribers could read their stuff when found with Google. So ANY WSJOnline article, if accessed through Google, can be read by anyone. Type the URL into your browser or click a lick from somewhere else (like the WSJOnline), and you must have a subscription.

dave


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## 32and3cross

Danielson hopes to resolve doping case and race next year | Cyclingnews.com

The silence is broken.


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## harryman

deviousalex said:


> Strava needs a known doper badge like they have a Pro badge.


:thumbsup:


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