# ZIPP 404 Firecrest vs Toroidal turbulars



## wai11111 (Aug 21, 2011)

Looking to pick up a pair of 404s but the question is... Has anyone used both 404s? Now that the firecrest been out for sale, seem like theres alot of great deals on the 404 Toroidals for approx $1200-$1750 while the firecrest is around $2700. Worth the savings? Please tell me. Thank you


----------



## CervS3 (Dec 23, 2011)

Firecrest came out this year....they are more reliable.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Firecrest came out this year....they are more aero.


----------



## wedge962005 (Jan 4, 2010)

Also consider 2011 vs. 2012. The 2012 models have a different hub flange spacing. The change in 2012 makes them stronger and stiffer laterally. If you are big and powerful it will be noticeable. If you are one of the spindly climbers I'm always watching fly away from me on the climbs, don't worry about it and do us all a favor, ride some 10 lbs training wheels!


----------



## MMinSC (Nov 19, 2011)

I've ridden both. The Firecrest wheels are way better. Faster, stiffer, climb better...

I really like the FC wheels, but the cost is prohibitive. It's one of those, "sure I can afford it, but do I want to..." sort of things.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

I rock 404 FC carbon clinchers and love them. I'd be riding them today if the roads weren't so salty, wet, grimey, etc..


----------



## framesti (Jan 26, 2009)

*firecrest*



MMinSC said:


> I've ridden both. The Firecrest wheels are way better. Faster, stiffer, climb better...
> 
> I really like the FC wheels, but the cost is prohibitive. It's one of those, "sure I can afford it, but do I want to..." sort of things.


Do you have to widen the brakes? (is it wider?)


----------



## wai11111 (Aug 21, 2011)

Great Answers, Thank you


----------



## Lick Skillet (Aug 21, 2011)

I ride the 404 Firecrest but have never ridden the torodials. My friend is on a set of the 404 Torodials and I kick his ass everytime.


----------



## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Lick Skillet said:


> I ride the 404 Firecrest but have never ridden the torodials. My friend is on a set of the 404 Torodials and I kick his ass everytime.


Really? You should switch wheels and see what happens. If you are kicking his ass everytime it means you are stronger than him. If you two were within a couple seconds of each other in a very heavy crosswind time trial that is when the firecrest might let you beat him.


----------



## CervS3 (Dec 23, 2011)

Zipp claims that the Zipp 303s can save 12 seconds over 40K. I have seen too many failures with these rims and Zipp wont back up their wheels.


----------



## wai11111 (Aug 21, 2011)

*Thank you*

I think your answer is right on. I could give up a few seconds for approx $1500 less in savings. I believe the toroidal is 24mm wide aswell. 
I'll wait a few years for the firecrest prices to come down before investing in a pair. $2700 is just scarey... 





coachboyd said:


> Really? You should switch wheels and see what happens. If you are kicking his ass everytime it means you are stronger than him. If you two were within a couple seconds of each other in a very heavy crosswind time trial that is when the firecrest might let you beat him.


----------



## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

CervS3 said:


> Zipp claims that the Zipp 303s can save 12 seconds over 40K. I have seen too many failures with these rims and Zipp wont back up their wheels.


I asked people and bike shop owners about the Zipp wheels. I was told the old Zipp wheels had problems, but the new Zipp wheels are fine.


----------



## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

wai11111 said:


> I think your answer is right on. I could give up a few seconds for approx $1500 less in savings. I believe the toroidal is 24mm wide aswell.
> I'll wait a few years for the firecrest prices to come down before investing in a pair. $2700 is just scarey...


Not to mention that we just don't see the type of yaw angles in real world conditions the new shapes are optimized for. It's pretty rare to see -15degrees or +15 degrees of yaw angle (especially 1 foot off the ground). If you are riding fast the torroidial shape is just as fine as the newer shape. If it's not a super windy day a V-shape is also really aero, as the yaw angles you are likely to see are closer to +-5 degrees (and changing within that range probably every 200 meters)


----------



## eekase (Nov 10, 2009)

*303 toroidal tubulars*



wai11111 said:


> I think your answer is right on. I could give up a few seconds for approx $1500 less in savings. I believe the toroidal is 24mm wide aswell.
> I'll wait a few years for the firecrest prices to come down before investing in a pair. $2700 is just scarey...


I nabbed a set of new 2011 zipp 303's tubulars for $1235.....are they 'not as good' as the firecrest ones? Probably, but will my 50+ year old legs tell the diff, probably not....but for that price I really couldn't pass 'em up


----------



## LouisVuitton (Aug 31, 2009)

The 2008 and older Zipp wheels were known for problems. The 2009 and higher are much more improved. The 2010 and 2011 are even better, especially now with the Firecrest wheels. They are bomb proof.


----------



## MMinSC (Nov 19, 2011)

framesti said:


> Do you have to widen the brakes? (is it wider?)


Yep. I run Mavic SSC brakes and had to loosen the cable AND run my old Swiss Stop yellows that are about 1/2 width of new ones.


----------



## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

CervS3 said:


> Zipp claims that the Zipp 303s can save 12 seconds over 40K. I have seen too many failures with these rims and Zipp wont back up their wheels.


SRAM's warranty department is one of the most liberal ones around. I've never a legit warranty denied, nor even a questionable one. 

Anywho, want 95% of the 404 FC carbon clincher performance? Buy 101s. They are that good. At half the cost. 

And yes, Firecrest tubulars are noticeably better handling than the old rims. Braking performance is more consistent, as well.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Aero-ness, rigidity, and ride quality are all important, but most important is not having a catastrophic failure. The Zipp Firecrest spiel is pretty good in this regard, but don't know how legit it is. If it is legit, and the clincher rims are robust, they're worth the premium as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Lick Skillet (Aug 21, 2011)

@coachroid - Really!!!
On a serious note, duh.... 
The spew from Zipp and the ability to control heat build up is MC Hammer Legit. I held off buying any carbon rim until I felt confident they would handle being an everyday wheel set. My 404's have 4500 miles on them over a 6 month period. They have been solid in all conditions and terrain. I have blasted down Brasstown Bald and Hogpen without any heat related issue, blown by sidewinds without any more redirection than when on my non-aero wheels, brake great when wet, spin up fast, stiff when mashing the pedals and the hubs are butter. I do not regret the $$$ spent and hope to get many more super sweet hours out of them. See ya in the rear view coach...


----------



## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Lick Skillet said:


> See ya in the rear view coach...


Ha ha, nice! We should race then.


----------



## MMinSC (Nov 19, 2011)

I'll be more than glad to promote that match race. How about up Caesars Head?


----------



## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

-dustin said:


> SRAM's warranty department is one of the most liberal ones around. I've never a legit warranty denied, nor even a questionable one.


As great as ZIPPS are, this is why I have cosmic ultimates - I could crash, drive me car into the garage with the bike on the roofrack, I could do anything - they are replaced.


----------



## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

MMinSC said:


> I'll be more than glad to promote that match race. How about up Caesars Head?


Heading there today, probably Saturday too if you want to drive up.


----------



## MMinSC (Nov 19, 2011)

coachboyd said:


> Heading there today, probably Saturday too if you want to drive up.


Appreciate the offer, but getting away on short notice is increasingly difficult these days. Gotta plan waaay ahead when you have 3 kids...


----------

