# 2x lacing, stuck



## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

*SUCCESS!!!!*

OK sorry for the lapse, was busy last night and today i dropped my rear wheel off to my mechanic and he pointed out what coachboyd pointed out how the pulling spoke was head in and that could potentially be bad if the chain drops past the cassette etc and when i saw that i made it perfectly clear to me. But he said on the flip side it's not a BIG deal. He pointed out how you should start w/ the name of the hub lining up w/ the valve hole which i serendipitously did by accident. LOL 

But he was able to true it up in by the end of the day and I'll pick it up tomorrow when i drop off my front wheel.

What's up with my front wheel? Well it's done, that's what's up!!!! I dont know what i did, but i took all the spokes and nipples off AGAIN and gave it one more try. Lined up the hub name "Chris King" face forwar and started the first spoke up on the 2nd hole to the right of the valve hole. Then on the ND i threaded the spoke into the first hole to the right of the valve.

Laced it up, twisted the hub proper and started the cross lacing, the one side was easy as it normally was, flipped it over and started on the other side and this is the side that normally gave me the biggest grief. Well on my 4th spoke i noticed that it was threading nicely didnt have to fight the spoke to thread it on. Then came the 5th and 6th and the final 7th spoke ALL WENT ON WITHOUT A HITCH!!! 

I was so happy and giddy told my wife who was sitting in the living room watching TV and she shook her head saying you have been at this for almost a week! LOL Well i started on Saturday but who's counting!

Ok i'll shut the front door and show you some pics!


















Thank you everyone for your help and guidance, this truly has been a learning experience and my next wheelbuild I certainly want to be able to true my own wheel

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well the rear is done, again, noob error was in full effect. When i twisted the hub the drive side nipples were fully seated however the non-drive side of the hub werent. So the ND spokes werent getting the full twist if you will so that's why i was having a hard getting the laced spoke to attach to the nipple was so difficult. 


























So now the bad news, i felt good and wanted to finish off the front. And i swear the front hub seems harder to do than the rear. I twist the hub and one side the spokes seem to "twist" more than the other side. So again when i go to lace one side laces perfectly fine. but when i go to lace the other side it difficult to get the spoke to even threaded into the nipple. and when i look at the hub it's more offset to one side of the rim than the other.

sigh, tomorrow is another day

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*EDIT SCOOBY DOO MYSTERY SOLVED*
SCOOBY DOO Mystery solved! 

I'm a complete idiot. Ok when they tell you to twist the hub I did that initially, but it never occurred to me to make sure all the nipples all protrude out, apparently when i did it the first time it didnt twist as much because the nipples were caught so that's why my lacing spokes werent long enough, they are in fact long enough LOL

Much better dont you think? LOL


















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I've followed the sheldon brown instruction, got the trailing spokes done. Now i'm going to lace the wheel w/ the leading spokes. I cant follow the instructions because when i go over one spoke and under the next it just doesnt seem to look right at all.



















Im at a loss right now, i dont want to start mangling spokes

Here's my spoke length calcs for the rear


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

Are you pulling the spokes reverse of the cross ones? I see all your spoke heads are facing out. When you pull a spoke x pull so the head faces opposite.


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## wotnoshoeseh (Apr 9, 2011)

Stick one in - post the pics and you'll get feedback here . . . . . . . . .


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

Download WheelCalc (free demo). Use the spoke pattern explorer tool to get a visual of the build, you'll spot errors before having gotten too far.
Spoke Length Calculator


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

The Spoke Pattern Explorer for Wheel Builders - by Machinehead Software


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

twist the hub clockwise and start dropping your other spokes in from the opposite side of each flange. looks like you've got it right so far. put one and post a pic, we'll tell you if it's right or not. and show us where the valve hole is. first spoke on the drive side should have been in the second hold to the right of the valve.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

cxwrench, yup it's in the 2nd hole to the right of the valve.

boisvertdom thanks for the link, it's one thing to read it and another to visually see it, i'll put in the leading spoke in one hole and take a pic

and im screwed that link is for PC's im on a MAC fml


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

You can try this link as well for visuals.

Wheel Building

another link


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks boneman, that helps a lot. Now if i replicate that lacing it looks like this. And Im pretty sure i did my spoke length calc correctly but it doesnt seem like even w/ the nipple sticking out it cant reach and it doesnt have that neat "triangle" that results from a proper lacing.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

I always lace the drive side first and then the non-drive side. 

This way you can start on the hole left to the valve and lace every fourth hole. When you have finished you can pull the spoke back crossing it twice and putting it in the second hole (not a dirty joke).

This will also give you the space with parallel spokes right at the valve hole.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

Thx coachboyd, I undid the ND spokes, I really think I started in the wrong holt. But Sheldon brown DIY states that if there's a hole right next to the valve then go to the next hole to the right ( clockwise) and then start lacing every 4th hole


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Try this.

Put all the drive side spokes in (both elbows in and elbows out). Now lay the hub on the drive side axle, take one of the spokes where you can see the elbow (so the head will be facing out) and put it directly to the left of the valve hole. 
Go to your next elbow out spoke to the right, put that one in the 4th hole to the right of the one you just did (so three holes away from the valve). Repeat until you have all the spokes laced that are heads facing out. 
Now, to do the spokes where the heads are facing inward make sure the pull to the left (so when the hub is rotating your heads inward are the pulling spokes). I usually do this by rotating the hub to the left so you can start to see the pattern. 

This will make it so that parallel spokes will be at your valve hole. Then you can start to lace the non drive side. You'll push the spokes through the small triangles on the drive side, and the larger parallel spokes on the drive side will allow you room to push the spokes from the other side and position them into place.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

ok, i made a very rudimentary mistake, sheldonbrown said to lace the trailing spokes COUNTERCLOCKWISE, my stupid [email protected]@ went clockwise so the holes and stuff didnt line up properly so the spokes seemed "short" I redid it and this is the result, valve hole is at 12 o'clock


















tell me what you think

Thank you Coachboyd, this is truly a learning experience for me


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

You need to have a spoke hole inbetween the heads in and heads out spokes. On your rim it should be 
spoke/no spoke/spoke/no spoke

Right now you are
spoke/spoke/no spoke/no spoke

You didn't start just to the left of the valve hole. . .you are two holes to the left of the valve hole. And it's not a big one but your pulling spokes are heads out so they don't have the bracing angle on them if they were heads in.

I don't have any wheels here or I would show you.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

ugh you're right because when i started the lacing of the ND side i didnt have any holes LOL ugh this is NUTS


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

am i getting close?

i put the drive side down when i laced so i went w/ hole the left of the valve as you stated.

valve hole is at 12 o'clock


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

foofighter said:


> am i getting close?
> 
> i put the drive side down when i laced so i went w/ hole the left of the valve as you stated.
> 
> valve hole is at 12 o'clock


That's much more like it.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

thank you, i just get thrown off because that little cross is only 1x? should it be 2x? aww what the hell do i know.

my only thing is in that picture the pulling spoke isnt under the trailing spoke

and this is w/ the pulling spoke under the trailing spoke, spokes are are mangled looking


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## JohnnyC7 (Dec 11, 2011)

It looks like you were on the right path to begin with, you just needed to twist the hub as far as you can in the "driving" direction before you try to do the crossed spokes. The crossed spoke you had tried to fit needs in post 9 needs to be moved one more hole to the right. If the spokes are tight in the hub you can try a smidge of grease in there


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Now you are at 1x. I thought you wanted 2x.

What coach was trying to tell you earlier (I think) was that the spoking at the hub was OK but you did not have the spokes in the correct rim holes. If only the DS is spoked, then every other hole in the rim should be vacant to allow for the NDS spokes.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

bikerjulio said:


> Now you are at 1x. I thought you wanted 2x.
> 
> What coach was trying to tell you earlier (I think) was that the spoking at the hub was OK but you did not have the spokes in the correct rim holes. If only the DS is spoked, then every other hole in the rim should be vacant to allow for the NDS spokes.


you're right in post 16 it only crossing once. at least it's easter sunday and i can scratch my head all day long and try to figure this out


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Yep I'm referring to post 13. Hub OK. Rim not. Every _other_ rim hole.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

An easier way to do this may be to stand up the wheel with only the heads in spokes laced. Now turn the hub so that all the spokes are leaving the hub to the left (looking at it from the freehub). Take one of the heads out spokes and put it under the spoke directly to the right, then over the next spoke to the right. 
The first cross is over the spoke directly next to it, but it presses over the second crossing.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

i see what you're saying, and when i do that (similar to post #9) my spokes come short and i thought i did the spoke calc correctly (see my first post)


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Click on the pic for a much higher resolution picture. This is 28 2X.

Are you sure the spokes are the correct length? The numbers are right. I would measure them if I were you. They are measured from the inside of the elbow to the tip.



-Eric


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

i measured the drive side spokes from inside elbow to the tip and came up with 272mm, just based on the looks of it the spokes are a little more than 3mm off and i'm using 14mm nipples as well

this was from post #9


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Post 9 was laced wrong. There should be a hole in the rim between the two spokes. Once you turn the hub take a picture.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

ok maybe a bad reference coachboyd, but i've got this thing laced properly now but when i go to do the cross lacing is when the spoke length runs short


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

Wheelbuilding : Lacing a bicycle wheel - YouTube


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

If the spokes are 3mm too short you should still be able to lace the wheel,but you dont want to tension it if the spokes are that short.

did you measure the ERD yourself? you can do that with two spokes with nipples on the ends.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

svard75 that's beautiful to watch and makes me look like a complete inept tool. I'm convinced that something's amiss because when i do that lacing that he's doing it's a fight to get it to the that hole.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

SCOOBY DOO Mystery solved! 

I'm a complete idiot. Ok when they tell you to twist the hub I did that initially, but it never occurred to me to make sure all the nipples all protrude out, apparently when i did it the first time it didnt twist as much because the nipples were caught so that's why my lacing spokes werent long enough, they are in fact long enough LOL

Much better dont you think? LOL


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## cha_cha_ (Sep 27, 2008)

svard75 said:


> Wheelbuilding : Lacing a bicycle wheel - YouTube


awesome.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Yay, you got it (although I like the pulling spokes to be heads facing in). 
Now, when you lace the non drive side, hold the hub with the freehub body facing up towards the ceiling. Drop the spokes through the small triangles into to hole that is directly below it. This makes it easier to lace that side.


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## CAADEL (Jul 23, 2011)

svard75 said:


> Wheelbuilding : Lacing a bicycle wheel - YouTube


Great post! :thumbsup: 

Is he also doing a 2X lacing in this video?


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

the odyssey continues, the backside lacing is FUN (not)


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## cha_cha_ (Sep 27, 2008)

have you done the front already? how did that go?


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

the front one side is fine, the other side i'm having problems similar to what i experienced earlier with the cross lacing seemingly short, i think i am just starting the pattern wrong. It was getting late so i thought i would just put it away and revisit it again tomorrow. perhaps take to my LBS and get some consultation/pointers on what i'm doing wrong.


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

foofighter said:


> the odyssey continues, the backside lacing is FUN (not)




Don't give up! Try watching the video a few seconds at a time doing it while watching. That is 2x exactly what you want. I agree he's very quick in his video and he never really finished the edit (note the caption) but if you pause every few seconds it should get you through.

Have fun!


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

As per my email make sure you measure the spoke by hanging it from the elbow. The picture you sent me looks like you measured it from the bottom of the spoke head.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

i will never ever take wheelbuilders for granted, when you think about it, it's pretty basic the concept. and as i told eric the execution of this is what's challenging.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

foofighter said:


> i will never ever take wheelbuilders for granted, when you think about it, it's pretty basic the concept. and as i told eric the execution of this is what's challenging.


Maybe you should have done the time lapse deal....


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

haha it would have been a trilogy or a mini series with my trials and tribulations. I swear right now i can build the driveside lacing with my eyes closed (that's how many times i'm undone the nipples and spokes). Now i'm stuck on the left side (ND)


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## JohnnyC7 (Dec 11, 2011)

How far did you wind the ds nipples on? You might need to back them off a little bit then give the elbows out spokes a gentle bend around the hub flange to shift the rim closer to the nds


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

foofighter said:


> haha it would have been a trilogy or a mini series with my trials and tribulations. I swear right now i can build the driveside lacing with my eyes closed (that's how many times i'm undone the nipples and spokes). Now i'm stuck on the left side (ND)


That is why it is easier doing all the trailing spokes first, then the pulling. Lacing one side completely creates crosses that make it hard to manipulate the other side's spokes when lacing. Not sure what resources (besides Sheldon) you are using, but it might be worth investing the few bucks for Roger Musson's e-book. Best relatively low cost resource I've found.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

krisdrum, i thought about that, as you're right when you build one side first you create some weird situation where you go to build the other side and you're fighting this thing.

I may just UNDO it all again and do the trailing first on both sides and then do the cross. 

What's confusing and i've read that it's just a matter of preference but the "pulling" spoke should be head-in and i thought that's what i did but coachboyd pointed out that i didnt so i'm a little coRnfused there. the pulling is the spoke that's pointing towards the front of the bike if you're looking at the driveside wheel right?


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

foofighter said:


> krisdrum, i thought about that, as you're right when you build one side first you create some weird situation where you go to build the other side and you're fighting this thing.
> 
> I may just UNDO it all again and do the trailing first on both sides and then do the cross.
> 
> What's confusing and i've read that it's just a matter of preference but the "pulling" spoke should be head-in and i thought that's what i did but coachboyd pointed out that i didnt so i'm a little coRnfused there. the pulling is the spoke that's pointing towards the front of the bike if you're looking at the driveside wheel right?


I'm not following. All the spokes face the front of the bike at some point, so now I am confused.

The way I have done it (and I am NO expert), what I'd call the trailing spokes go in first and are laced heads out/elbows in. The hub is then twisted, so with the valve stem at 12 o'clock, the spokes above the hub are facing forward, towards the front of the bike. You then lace the pulling spokes, which typically go in elbows out/heads in. The pulling spokes are what create the crosses and face the opposite direction to the trailing spokes. 

At least that is how I would describe it in words the way I remember it. I always mix up which is named "trailing" and which is "pulling". Again, do yourself a favor and get the Musson e-book off his website.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

The pulling spokes are the ones that pull the rim around. So no matter what way you look at the wheel the pulling spokes are the ones that exit the hub to the rear if you thinking about the spoke in a 12o'clock position.

Some people like to do the pulling spokes heads in, other heads out. It probably makes no real world difference and there are arguments for both.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

*SUCCESS!!!!*

well the rear is done, again, noob error was in full effect. When i twisted the hub the drive side nipples were fully seated however the non-drive side of the hub werent. So the ND spokes werent getting the full twist if you will so that's why i was having a hard getting the laced spoke to attach to the nipple was so difficult. 


























So now the bad news, i felt good and wanted to finish off the front. And i swear the front hub seems harder to do than the rear. I twist the hub and one side the spokes seem to "twist" more than the other side. So again when i go to lace one side laces perfectly fine. but when i go to lace the other side it difficult to get the spoke to even threaded into the nipple. and when i look at the hub it's more offset to one side of the rim than the other.

sigh, tomorrow is another day


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

looks like you're getting the hang of it. see if any of these suggestions help and/or make sense to you. 

you know where to start off your first set of spokes...drive side/pulling. driveside of hub up or towards you. drop your spokes in alternating holes. thread on nipples, twist the hub if you want. 
i then flip the wheel over and look at the spoke 2 holes from the valve, and find the hole offset to the clockwise side (on the nds flange) of the spoke you're looking at on the ds.
you should end up w/ this spoke right next to the valve hole, to the left as you're looking at it. put in your next set, thread nipples on, and twist the hub. 
now you have pulling spokes on each flange, heads out. 
drop your heads-in spokes thru the ds flange, and start crossing them one at a time and threading nipples on. for you, under on then over one (2 cross). 
flip the wheel back over and do the last set. 
remember, always check that the spokes hit the rim alternating each spoke DS, NDS, DS, NDS...that's a mistake i see people make all the time, and you made earlier. now you know to look out for that. 
i use one of these...








hard to tell from the photo, but it's shaped like a flat screwdriver. it's hollow, and you cut a short length of spoke and insert it into the end. there's a set screw, so how much it sticks out is adjustable. you then use this by hand or in an electric drill to run the nipples onto the spokes. it really helps, because the nipples all go on to the spokes the same amount...so the tension you start from is even all the way round. they're not cheap ($45.00 or so) but worth every penny if you're going to build more than just a couple of wheels. keep posting pics, i want to see the finished wheels!


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

thanks cxwrench that's a clever tool

Im just stoked that i got the rear wheel done/laced properly (i hope) now just need to friggin figure out why the front is driving me nuts. I may need to twist it after the one side is laced up just so it will get the proper angle


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

should be exactly the same, except you don't have to worry about 2 different spoke legnths. if you're having a hard time twisting the hub all the way after the first 2 sets of spokes are in, just jiggle it around a bunch, no need to be shy. just reference your rear wheel any time you have any doubt. you'll get it, don't worry!


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

OK sorry for the lapse, was busy last night and today i dropped my rear wheel off to my mechanic and he pointed out what coachboyd pointed out how the pulling spoke was head in and that could potentially be bad if the chain drops past the cassette etc and when i saw that i made it perfectly clear to me. But he said on the flip side it's not a BIG deal. He pointed out how you should start w/ the name of the hub lining up w/ the valve hole which i serendipitously did by accident. LOL 

But he was able to true it up in by the end of the day and I'll pick it up tomorrow when i drop off my front wheel.

What's up with my front wheel? Well it's done, that's what's up!!!! I dont know what i did, but i took all the spokes and nipples off AGAIN and gave it one more try. Lined up the hub name "Chris King" face forwar and started the first spoke up on the 2nd hole to the right of the valve hole. Then on the ND i threaded the spoke into the first hole to the right of the valve.

Laced it up, twisted the hub proper and started the cross lacing, the one side was easy as it normally was, flipped it over and started on the other side and this is the side that normally gave me the biggest grief. Well on my 4th spoke i noticed that it was threading nicely didnt have to fight the spoke to thread it on. Then came the 5th and 6th and the final 7th spoke ALL WENT ON WITHOUT A HITCH!!! 

I was so happy and giddy told my wife who was sitting in the living room watching TV and she shook her head saying you have been at this for almost a week! LOL Well i started on Saturday but who's counting!

Ok i'll shut the front door and show you some pics!


















Thank you everyone for your help and guidance, this truly has been a learning experience and my next wheelbuild I certainly want to be able to true my own wheel


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

sweet! great job...told you it was easy when you ride on wheels you've built for yourself it gives you a sense of satisfaction like no other, similar to a surfer using a board he shaped and glassed for himself. now you will have to learn about tensioning and truing. if you haven't already, buy yourself a 6pack for that:thumbsup:


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

And i picked up my rear wheel from the shop after being trued. My mechanic said these are STOUT wheels and you wont have to worry about flex with this build

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P99UXoN5MZ8


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

Weight of the wheels without rim tape: 

830g for the rear
700g for the front

Not bad for being King hubs that arent known to be weight weenie stuff, and 28h rims


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## cha_cha_ (Sep 27, 2008)

wow, they look nice. confident mine will come in around the same - my rear hub is slightly lighter, but i'm also running race on the back rather than lasers


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## SBH1973 (Nov 21, 2002)

I guess I'll tell the final piece of this saga: When calculating spoke lengths, we came up with 280mm for the front with radial lacing. When the calculator comes up with a length exactly between one of the two available lengths in a give spoke - in this case Sapim Lasers, I usually round down - so 279mm. Better, my thinking goes, to be a mm short than a mm too long and not have enough thread left to achieve the proper tension. Well, that was not the case here. They really needed to be 281! Still too much thread after tensioning to feel confident - 2mm more would have done the trick.

Anyway, new spokes are on the way. These wheels will be finished!






foofighter said:


> Weight of the wheels without rim tape:
> 
> 830g for the rear
> 700g for the front
> ...


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

I do appreciate your help on that Brandon!


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