# '84 Centurion Lemans 12



## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Wish me luck. Will drive 90 miles each way to look at the subject bike in the morning. Did a bit of research; the bike seemed to hover around the middle of the Centurion pack when new, about on par with the Raleigh SuperCourse of that year. Maybe not as pretty, but fairly light at 25.1 lbs., and good-looking enough:

Centurion Bicycles 1984 Catalogue


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Best of luck. I was more of a fan of the LeMans RS back in the day (1986?)... flashier paintjob, aero levers too.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Nice bike. Had a 110 BCD crank long before they were called "compact cranks."


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

They were called touring cranks back then, and were looked down upon.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

ericm979 said:


> They were called touring cranks back then, and were looked down upon.


And now they dominate the industry. Interesting how things go.

Anyone remember when it was cool to have 18mm wide tires for road-riding?


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Ended up bringing TWO Centurion Lemans home. Here is one:

centurion lemans 12

And here is the other, a Lemans RS with missing wheels:

centurion lemans RS frame

The seller accepted the sum of $250 cash for the pair. 

So, TWO projects. I'd like to start by positively identifying their respective model years; any assistance greatly appreciated. DB


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Serial number code in there somewhere:
Centurion Bicycles From WSI (Western States Industries)


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

wim said:


> Serial number code in there somewhere:
> Centurion Bicycles From WSI (Western States Industries)


Thank you!


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## Guerciotti (Nov 11, 2014)

I have one of those, how much are they asking. Mine weighs 23 with 36 spoke wheels and 20.4 with 16 spoke and 20 spoke in the back.

Just curious how much they are asking..


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Guerciotti said:


> I have one of those, how much are they asking. Mine weighs 23 with 36 spoke wheels and 20.4 with 16 spoke and 20 spoke in the back. Just curious how much they are asking..


I paid $250 cash for the pair; see Post #6. These certainly are lightweight steel frames, both of them. Should be fun when finished. Meantime, I'm servicing an old cold steel framed bike, a 12-speed with pretty cheap components. Needs new cables, new bar tape, new tires and tubes, a new seat and a front derailleur. (It came without an FD). I'll get that done and will pull an old used seat off the shelf. The crank and headset seem okay so I'll leave them alone. 

Then I'll wonder what to do with it.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

SystemShock said:


> Best of luck. I was more of a fan of the LeMans RS back in the day (1986?)... flashier paintjob, aero levers too.


Well, the guy also had an RS frame for sale, so I brought that home too. :--)


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

I parted out one of those a few years back - I found it sitting out on the curb on trash night. Too absurdly tall for me to ride, I decided to strip it down - the really nice SunTour Arx derailleurs were repurposed and eventually wound up on the bike that I took to Eroica in 2013. 

The frameset was a 60cm, and neither I nor any of my buddies are that tall. After it sat in my garage for a year (where I contemplated cutting it in half and turning the rear triangle and seat post into a shop stool), I passed the frameset along to the bike co-op. Or at least I think that I did. All that I can say for certain is that it isn't in my garage anymore. Like that wonderful, sunny farm up north where your mom and dad sent your overly-rambunctious-but-lovable pet dog after he bit the neighbor kid and peed on the couch - Still love ya' Sparky! Hope you're running around and having fun like mom and dad said! _Fetch!_ - I'd like to believe that this Centurion frame set lives happily ever after as the basis for a hipster fixie for a tall person somewhere in Arlington or Alexandria.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Was worried initially about Centurion's ad which describes the Lemans as "our strongest, lightest, high-performance recreational bike." That one word - "recreational" - gave me pause, since that often indicates a mid- to low-level model. 

Apparently not in this case. The specs indicate high quality steel and, for that era, components. Centurion seems to have used the word "recreational" because the bike ran on Schrader-valved tires. 

If so, it should turn out to be a VERY enjoyable ride when finished; lightweight and yet compliant. 

'll probably keep those Schrader valves, although I don't think you can use CO2 cartridges with them, so I'll have to carry a small pump. DB


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

The LeMans series Centurions were nice, mostly entry level bikes, one or two notches up from their least expensive offerings. The early ones were hi-ten steel, and the tubesets improved over time. I seem to rememeber that they eventually got a nice Tange tube set for the front triangle, mated to something less expensive (Mangaloy, for example) for the chain stays, seat stays and fork. The frame should have a decal saying which tubes it has. Tange #2 is pretty good. 

The Retrogrouch: Classic Tubes: Tange and Ishiwata


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Gregory Taylor said:


> The LeMans series Centurions were nice, mostly entry level bikes, one or two notches up from their least expensive offerings. The early ones were hi-ten steel, and the tubesets improved over time. I seem to rememeber that they eventually got a nice Tange tube set for the front triangle, mated to something less expensive (Mangaloy, for example) for the chain stays, seat stays and fork. The frame should have a decal saying which tubes it has. Tange #2 is pretty good.
> 
> The Retrogrouch: Classic Tubes: Tange and Ishiwata


Yup... if it's one of the Tange #2 LeMans RSes, then he's golden.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Pulled it out and took "as purchased" photos last night. The rear derailleur is bent - badly - inboard. The sprocket assembly wobbles - badly - with the spinning rear wheel. I've got some work to do. Still, the bike IS quite light. Restoring this one will be a practice run for the Lemans 12 RS that's sitting beside it:


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Well, Behrens, you've managed to get me interested again in finding and fixing old road bikes. Found a mid-80s Nishiki International Tange #1 bike my size yesterday, went to look at it today and bought it. The guy said "rode for three months, then decided bike riding wasn't for me." Not sure why he waited 30 years or so to sell it. I'll post a pic tomorrow.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

wim said:


> Well, Behrens, you've managed to get me interested again in finding and fixing old road bikes. Found a mid-80s Nishiki International Tange #1 bike my size yesterday, went to look at it today and bought it. The guy said "rode for three months, then decided bike riding wasn't for me." Not sure why he waited 30 years or so to sell it. I'll post a pic tomorrow.


Congrats! I'm already excited to see the pics.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

There it is. All original parts except for the tires. Not a scratch on it. 22.4 lbs as shown. Brake levers are a little too high on the bar to be period-correct, and wish me luck pulling the freewheel to get the dork disk off: it's the infamous Suntour 2-pronger!


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

SystemShock said:


> Yup... if it's one of the Tange #2 LeMans RSes, then he's golden.


Although there is a Lemans 12 RS next to it, the one I'm working on now is a "mere" Lemans 12. 

After stripping it down, I was very surprised when I lifted the bare frame. It seems at least a pound or two lighter than the Super Course, a bike that is well-regarded here. 

I'll weigh the bare frame later and post it here, but my initial reaction is that 1 1/4" tires and a kickstand on a frame this light. . . . well, again, I'm surprised. The sticker on the seat tube reads "Tange 900, ChroMoly, double-butted tubes."


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Duane Behrens said:


> Although there is a Lemans 12 RS next to it, the one I'm working on now is a "mere" Lemans 12.
> 
> After stripping it down, I was very surprised when I lifted the bare frame. It seems at least a pound or two lighter than the Super Course, a bike that is well-regarded here.
> 
> I'll weigh the bare frame later and post it here, but my initial reaction is that 1 1/4" tires and a kickstand on a frame this light. . . . well, again, I'm surprised. The sticker on the seat tube reads "Tange 900, ChroMoly, double-butted tubes."


The Tange 900, if I am not mistaken, is double butted tubing that appeared on mid-range bikes. It is a couple of steps below the Tange #2. The main difference (and don't hold me to this because I am doing this from memory) is that the Tange 900 is formed by rolling a flat sheet and welding it (i.e. "seamed" tubing). Still decent stuff for what you have.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Gregory Taylor said:


> The Tange 900, if I am not mistaken, is double butted tubing that appeared on mid-range bikes. It is a couple of steps below the Tange #2. The main difference (and don't hold me to this because I am doing this from memory) is that the Tange 900 is formed by rolling a flat sheet and welding it (i.e. "seamed" tubing). Still decent stuff for what you have.


I'll take a closer look this afternoon. If it's truly seamed tubing (whcih I've always thought of as the most cheaply made, failure-prone tubing out there), I won't be spending a lot of money on upgrades. Thanks.

EDIT: I'd also always thought of seamed tubing as an application limited to the cheapest, rolled, cold steel - NOT a "chromoly" alloy. I could be wrong.

EDIT 2: And apparently I WAS wrong! 

"Tange 900 is another less expensive, double butted chromoly steel, *seamed,* that was/is found on lower end frames, but is good quality. Tange made a wide range of steel tubing, but they didn't make any crap. Or at least they didn't put the Tange decal/name on any crap tubing." 

SOURCE: How good is Tange CrMo?


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Nice. Not only is the bike beautiful, you've done a professional job in capturing the photo. Not sure how you made the valve stems disappear. And I'd be curious to know if the blue hoods and cable housing are also original to the bike, or whether the PO did or had some work done on it. 

As beautiful and apparently-pristine as these old bikes can be (and I know you know this), it would be mistake to just ride them. Bearing grease turns to dry cake over the years; you'll have 8 sets of bearings to clean and re-pack before riding it. I think it's kind of fun, actually, sort of like adopting a shelter dog and giving it its first bath . . . DB


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

I agree with that assessment - by and large Tange doesn't make crap. Make no mistake; REALLY ghastly cheap bikes do have straight gauge seamed hi-ten tubing. The Tange 900 on your bike, while it is seamed tubing, is several lightyears above "gaspipe." 

This is why Japanese bikes from the '80s are so interesting. At their core even the inexpensive bikes are often very well executed and made from good quality materials. Not to flog the old Ford analogy that I used in an earlier thread, but it is a bit like early Ford Model Ts and As - they were inexpensive, but they were not cheaply made. The materials used were high quality where it counted - and cleverly engineered to hold down the cost.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Wow....that is nice! What a beautiful find. You know what I like? The blue hoods on the brake levers that match the paint. What a cool detail. 

Good luck on the freewheel. Those are awful. I use a quick release to REALLY clamp the puller onto the freewheel and seat the tool into the notches. I then grab the wheel, walk over to my workbench and clamp the wheel into my vice, clamping the tool/puller between the jaws. I then grab the rim and rotate the wheel to break the freewheel loose. Once I resume breathing, you can remove the wheel from the vice and spin the freewheel off.

EDIT: is that Suntour Cyclone? If so, I am INTENSELY jealous. That's the good stuff.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Gregory Taylor said:


> Wow....that is nice! What a beautiful find. You know what I like? The blue hoods on the brake levers that match the paint.


Yes, they do look good, and all the blue stuff is original. The original (Vetta) saddle was blue as well when it was new, but the pigment has faded to a blueish gray. Crank (amazing quality) and brakes are Cyclone, yes. Front and rear deraillleur are Sprint.

Your note about clever engineering is absolutely true, check this out: the brake mounting points on the frame are still old school bosses (no counterbore for a recessed nut.) But those guys knew that a bike of this quality can't have what's called "nutted brakes." So they spec'd a brake nut with an integral chrome washer the exact same diameter as the boss and a 5 mm internal hex ("Allen") head. It sticks out a bit, but looks great. You can barely see it on the photo on the front brake.

Front and rear hubs are cartridge-bearing Sansins and spin perfectly. I'll give the freewheel a shot, but will stop short of brute force. It's quiet and smooth, so if it won't budge, I'll just ride around with the dork disk and deal with the shame.

Duane: the valve stems are there, but hard to make out--8 o'clock rear, 4 o'clock front.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

The little details like the brake nut are just cool. And the Cyclone/Sprint stuff is soooo nice, in some ways technically more advanced than Shimano or Campy. Proof that a satisfying or interesting bike doesn't have to have Campagnolo (even though that is fabulous, bordering on works of art) or have an Italian pedigree.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

wim said:


> Nice bike. Had a 110 BCD crank long before they were called "compact cranks."


This perked me up. Do you think I could change out the 130 BCD crank on my Super Course for a smaller 110? I assume I'll need to measure BB width, BB diameter, spindle length and crank offset. Anything else? And are there sources for smaller crank sets that fit onto a square-taper spindle and match up to the 6-speed rear assembly?

EDIT: Or maybe it's a 144 BCD. Can't remember anymore, will have to re-measure . . .


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## Guerciotti (Nov 11, 2014)

Hey Duane,

I have a Campy Daytona (130 or 135 BCD) on the Lemans Rs in the garage, it has a 7 speed cassette and worked just fine. Pretty much anything campy or dura ace from the 90's and before will work on a 6speed freewheel. They all had square taper back then.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> It's quiet and smooth, so if it won't budge, I'll just ride around with the dork disk and deal with the shame.


I don't know if you want to do this, but a plastic spoke protector can be removed without removing the freewheel. You have to destroy it, of course.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

You can certainly swap out what you have for a 110mm crank. The trick is matching the BB spindle width with the crank to get the appropriate chainline. Check on Velobase.com - they usually have the data that you will need regarding the BB spindle width that goes with a particular crank. Look up the crank, and see if the data is there. It usually is.

[Another thought - you could filch the crank off of the Lemans 12 and use it. That takes a 118mm bottom bracket. 

VeloBase.com - Component: Sugino RT (double)

There are plenty of new 110mm cranks that would work. IRD makes one as does Velo-Orange (actually, they might be essentially the same crank...). Your best bet, however, is to take one off of a donor bike, or hit the parts bin at your local bike co-op, if you have one. Old Japanese 110 cranks from back in the day should be essentially free... and rings are cheap.]

IRD Defiant Compact Road Double Cranks

Grand Cru 110 Fluted Double Crankset, 34x48t - Cranksets - Components

You may also need to fart around with the derailleurs - make sure that the front it will handle the step between rings. You may also have to reposition it. Out back, if you go with a big jump between front rings, you need to be sure that the derailleur can pull enough chain to handle both big-big and little-little, even though you shouldn't cross chain.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

*110mm BCD vs. 144mm BCD.*

Thank you, gentlemen. Removing the SuperCourse' OEM, 144mm crank (52t x 42t) and replacing it with the 110BCD crank (52t x 40t) from the Lemans turned out to be a very easy swap. I had to move the front derailleur slightly. But that was it. Everything else lined up great; I didn't even have to adjust the chain length, which surprised me. Looking forward to seeing if the new 40x28 low-gear combination (vs. the old 42x28) will make this morning's 1200 foot climb just a little easier.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> I don't know if you want to do this, but a plastic spoke protector can be removed without removing the freewheel. You have to destroy it, of course.


Thanks, but the center is solid metal and I'm reluctant to hack away at that. As soon as I get my order, I'll put a *brand-new* 2-prong puller to the freewheel and see how it goes. Worn 2-prong puller = recipe for certain disaster.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

Duane Behrens said:


> *110mm BCD vs. 144mm BCD.*
> 
> Thank you, gentlemen. Removing the SuperCourse' OEM, 144mm crank (52t x 42t) and replacing it with the 110BCD crank (52t x 40t) from the Lemans turned out to be a very easy swap. I had to move the front derailleur slightly. But that was it. Everything else lined up great; I didn't even have to adjust the chain length, which surprised me. Looking forward to seeing if the new 40x28 low-gear combination (vs. the old 42x28) will make this morning's 1200 foot climb just a little easier.


The ride was marginally easier with the 40T front chain ring. And some of that may have been placebo.  

Harris Cyclery carries 34T and 36T 6-speed chainrings for a 110 BCD, however. (Jenson doesn't.) I'm all over it.


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