# Which decals?



## Wheelspeed

Hi folks,

I got my Merckx at a bicycle flea market 6-7 years ago, and have always enjoyed it. This winter I'd like to treat it to a powder-coating and could use help with choosing good quality decals and maybe also the correct period.

Since I bought it used, I don't really know what it is. I've browsed various forums and never saw this paint scheme. When I asked about this, someone offered that they thought it was probably a repaint, which is fine because I wouldn't want to feel obligated to copy this ugly paint scheme!  

I've found all the sites that help with serial number id, but never saw any examples similar to mine. Mine has a "B" on the right side, and below that is a "2077". Any ideas? Attached is a pic.

Also, I haven't really seen any Merckx bikes with the cable routed at 8:00 along the top tube like mine.

Anyone know what my bike is? Any opinion if I should get the decals that have the sharp-edged font vs the more curvey font? (I prefer the sharp-edged font that is currently on it, but would most prefer to have the correct one.)


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## velomateo

That's interesting. Iv'e never seen that before, they look like they used two cable stops from the rear derailleur. It could have been a custom order or a repair. Are the current decals under clear coat? That paint could be original. The cadre' site shows the "B" as 88/89 model. 
The decals you have are my favorites...but many styles can be found on ebay.

What is stamped on the left side of the bottom bracket? Please post a pic of the seat stay area.


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## velomateo

Decals here;
http://stores.ebay.com/Cyclomondo?_rdc=1


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## Wheelspeed

Unfortunately I can't see anything on the left side of the BB. Maybe because of so much rust.









Here's a seat stay (updated with better pics):


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## pmf

Can you post some pictures of the entire bike? Are there Columbus decals on it?


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## velomateo

Judging by the seat stay treatment that may be a Reynolds 753 - Grand Prix frame. The cadre' site http://www.cadre.org/Merckx/ has a couple registered Grand Prix bikes and they all have the same seat stays and one clearly has a Reynolds 753 decal. After seeing the additional pics you posted, I believe the paint on your bike is original.
Cool bike, post a full bike shot.


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## hroch

Isn't this detective work fun? 
My very slightly older Strada (A9611) has the same type of decals and identical BB. Which does not say anything. Though, I observed that Stradas of that era had "Columbus" stamped dropouts while Corsas and C. Extras had "Campagnolo". Stradas also had this old type lettering while Corsas and corsa extras the new round ones.
Funny, Cadre site lists two bikes with serial numbers just next to yours B2078 and B2079 as Grand Prix; a seat cluster on 2078 is the same as yours-seems like a repaint- actually I think that is Cadres own bike and there are some details about that bike in his blog. 
I think that the paint might be original. I'd vote for wet paint job, powdercoat looks so thick and crude on nice steel lugs.


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## junkfoodjunkie

This looks identical to the details on my frameset, except paint and decals. Same location of braze ons for the rear brake cable stops. same BB, same seat stay attachment, no chrome except the dropouts (Campy on mine) and same lack of tubing decal :thumbsup: 

My BB has an "A" stamped on the left side though. I have tried to email Gita with no response. My fork is rifled so I believe it is SLX but the frames has no rifling anywhere and is much lighter (3lbs 8oz) than any SL or SLX frames I have had my hands on. I have always had suspicions that it may be 753, but have no way of confirming either way.

I would love to see a pic of the entire bike. I actually like your paint job by the way.

Jake


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## Wheelspeed

Okay, here's a pic of the entire bike. (I couldn't find any mention of Columbus on it.)









I'll have to try to get better pics of the seat stays!


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## Wheelspeed

hroch said:


> Isn't this detective work fun?
> My very slightly older Strada (A9611) has the same type of decals and identical BB. Which does not say anything. Though, I observed that Stradas of that era had "Columbus" stamped dropouts while Corsas and C. Extras had "Campagnolo". Stradas also had this old type lettering while Corsas and corsa extras the new round ones.
> Funny, Cadre site lists two bikes with serial numbers just next to yours B2078 and B2079 as Grand Prix; a seat cluster on 2078 is the same as yours-seems like a repaint- actually I think that is Cadres own bike and there are some details about that bike in his blog.
> I think that the paint might be original. I'd vote for wet paint job, powdercoat looks so thick and crude on nice steel lugs.


Yes, this is exciting! I've asked a bit about a year ago and didn't get much help. This site seems quite active and knowledgable. Your frame that you hyperlinked is gorgeous! I'll have to look more closely at my dropouts.

Yeah, I guess I agree on the wet paint. If it's an original paint scheme, and apparently somewhat unusual, then I'd rather duplicate it. I was just thinking of powder-coat since it's affordable and protective.

I guess I didn't find everything in the cadre site, because I didn't see those B2078 and B2079 numbers. Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## Wheelspeed

Frame dropout. Stamped Brev Campagnolo.









Fork dropout. Stamped the same, although barely legible:


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## Wheelspeed

Heat tube:


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## Wheelspeed

seat tube:


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## Wheelspeed

velomateo said:


> Decals here;
> http://stores.ebay.com/Cyclomondo?_rdc=1


Thanks!


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## Wheelspeed

velomateo said:


> ................ Are the current decals under clear coat? ....


Yes, I think they are. It feels like they are. I pushed my thumbnail under a corner of the decal and was able to pull it up, but that created a depression where the sticker used to be with a defined edge going to the clear coated part. So I think I pulled clearcoat up with the sticker. :mad2: Does it sound possible to push a thumbnail through old clearcoat?

I guess I outta browse the vintage forum awhile about refinishing bikes...


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## Wheelspeed

Any thoughts about the position of the decals on the seat tube? I've never seen them kind of bunched up at the top like mine on any other Merckx bikes.


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## velomateo

"Any thoughts about the position of the decals on the seat tube? I've never seen them kind of bunched up at the top like mine on any other Merckx bikes"

Agreed. They do look too close together.


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## aptivaboy

Definitely check the Cadre/Merckx site to check the serial. You could also try emailing Gita to check and see if they have any info. My mid '80s Grab Prix has internal routing, but the seatstay treatment is similar to your's. The bottom bracket is identical, right down to the single indentation on the centerline pierced by the round drain hole. The webbing around the chainstay lug joins is there on mine, too. Your seat lug is also the same. I've noticed that the few 753's that I've seen tend to have a four pointed seat lug atop the seat tube, with the lateral points being somewhat shorter than the others, and a more traditional two pointed lug on the top tube. That tends to be a very, very rough identifying feature for 753 Eddys. The seatstays tend to attach more to the rear of the seat lug, instead of the more usual side attachment locations as seen on your average Columbus-tubed Corsa Extra. 

This isn't a certainty, but you may very well have a Reynolds 753-tubed Eddy. If you can veryify the rest of the serial, that would probably tell the tale. There wouldn't be any rifling, obviously, inside the tubes if it is a Gran Prix. 

Robert


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## Cinelli 82220

Wheelspeed said:


> Any thoughts about the position of the decals on the seat tube?


Looks like a repaint, there is no way the factory put the decals on like that. Nor would you be able to peel one off with a fingernail. It would also support the idea that the top tube guides were part of a repair, maybe a dented top tube was replaced.
Instead of Gita, try contacting Eddy Merckx Cycles directly through their website. They are usually very helpful and have good records.


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## Wheelspeed

Thanks everyone for all of your help so far. After reading various links that all of you posted, it appears that 753 bikes were good for mountain stages. If mine is a 753, that's pretty neat since I live in Pittsburgh and all of my rides include "mountain stages". :wink5: When I repaint, I'd like to include the 753 sticker, but hate to do that if I'm not sure.

One thing that makes me nervous is the lack of a letter stamped on the left side of the bb (left side when the bike is upside down).

Supporting that it may be 753 is that I saw in the '89 Merckx catalog that one 753 bike color is pearl white. Maybe that's mine but with a custom paint job that added the yellow and blue to the base white? However, my seat tube decals in the wrong place make me wonder if it's a Merckx paint job.

I've written Gita bikes... have to see if they respond.

Since the "B" in my serial number suggest 88 or 89, and I didn't see mine in the 89 catalog, has anyone ever found an 88 catalog online?

Maybe today I'll pull the crank off and feel inside the downtube for a lack of rifling. Also, I couldn't find the section of "Classic Rendezvous" that talks about measuring a frame with calipers to know if it's 753.(?)


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## velomateo

When you strip the bike down for paint, you could weigh the bare frame. There should be a notable difference from a 753 frame to an SL/SLX frame. I don't know the weight - but I have read about the difference before.
As far as the cable stops being from a possible repair - I think junkfoodjunkie stated that his bike has them too. Maybe he could post a pic, I have only seen drive-side views of his bike.


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## Wheelspeed

velomateo said:


> When you strip the bike down for paint, you could weigh the bare frame. There should be a notable difference from a 753 frame to an SL/SLX frame. I don't know the weight - but I have read about the difference before.
> As far as the cable stops being from a possible repair - I think junkfoodjunkie stated that his bike has them too. Maybe he could post a pic, I have only seen drive-side views of his bike.


That's true, I'll have to weigh it. I also thought I saw the cable stops at the far side of jundfoodjunkie's pic, but wasn't sure.

*Junkfoodjunkie-- *Let's see a non-driveside pic. Cough it up!  

Regardless, maybe people who ride in the rain a lot wouldn't want internal cable routing and may have ordered the frame with standard cable stops?


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## Wheelspeed

I didn't have the tool to get the lock ring off. I'll have to pick one up. I'm assuming that once it's apart I'll be able to reach through the BB and feel for rifling in the bottom 1" or so of the down tube?

I removed the seat post to feel for rifling in the top tube but the lug has too small a hole where the top tube joins it. I assume the seat tube would be smooth for any frame since the seat post slides into it. (?)


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## junkfoodjunkie

Wheelspeed said:


> I didn't have the tool to get the lock ring off. I'll have to pick one up. I'm assuming that once it's apart I'll be able to reach through the BB and feel for rifling in the bottom 1" or so of the down tube?
> 
> I removed the seat post to feel for rifling in the top tube but the lug has too small a hole where the top tube joins it. I assume the seat tube would be smooth for any frame since the seat post slides into it. (?)


Yes you would be able to feel the rifling at the bottom of the seatube, but not the top.
I will try and snap some non drive side pics to compare the cable stop braze ons, they appear to be the exact same location as yours though.

Jake


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## aptivaboy

Check here for the 1990 catalog: http://www.tearsforgears.com/2008/02/eddy-merckx-1990-catalog.html . There are 753 Eddys in there, and the seatstay attachment for 753s is certainly different than that for the other road bikes. Having said that, I have a Merckx SLX funny bike, and the seatstay attachment is identical to your possible 753. Weird. The Merckx factory was certainly not known for being consistent!


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## Wheelspeed

Okay, I'll continue looking for the tool to get the bb off.
Thanks for the 1990 Catalog link.
I'm still interested in an '88 catalog if anything turns up.


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## hroch

Well in this catalogue (which is by my guess '87 +/- a year) is a 753 corsa extra with "normal" seat cluster and another SLX one with that of yours. 
Still your strongest indication is a cadre's bike with serial just next to yours, same seat cluster, which he claims is 753 (but the 753 sticker is a later addition, it is not on the earliest pictures of his bike). 753 is supposed to have seatstays of bigger diameter- but sure there are frames (Hampsten's) which are believed to be a 753, but with non-753 seatstays and marked TSX. You can see wide seatstays on this one.
In fact, the Merckx frames seem to be rarely made of one tubing set even if marked so- 1989 SLX Corsa extra being in fact a SLX-SPX-SP mix
That much for consistency.
Perhaps you might be able to see the rifling if you aim the flashlight down the seat tube- it would be just in the bottom part.


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## aptivaboy

I've never understood that catalog picture. The text below lists a Strada, yet there is no Strada in the photo. More craziness from the Eddy factory?


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## Wheelspeed

Thanks hroch.

The local bike shop doesn't have the lock-ring wrench in stock that I need.  
I forgot to borrow the micrometer from work to measure the seat stays.  
Flashlight was a good idea though. I didn't see any rifling down there. It's looking hopeful but I'll try to remember to bring home the mic.


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## hroch

Aptivaboy: You need to see things in the whole picture- I mean the whole catalogue.
More Merckx catalogues from the same site and bulgier.net


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## aptivaboy

I know. I've seen those sites and the whole catalog before. But here's thie thing - if you look at all of the picures and the text below, while the Strada is mentioned, there is no Strada in the picture! There are Corsas, Corsa Extras, A Criterium, and what's probably either a Professional or Gran Prix in 753, but no Strada. Stradas typically used Cromor, Gara, or Gara OS tubing, not the higher end stuff.


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## hroch

There is Strada as a whole bike on down part of page 7. Would be Cromor at this time- as is mine. In fact I have never seen a photo of Strada with "Gara" or "Gara OS" tubing decal- it is either Columbus "Cromor" on earlier ones or "Strada Eddy Merckx" later on. But I know people do mention Gara tubing.
Also note in the pictures of this catalogue, there is diferent seat cluster lug on Strada and Corsa frames (not the complete Corsa bike though)-bolt about in axis of top tube and longer lug lip going down at the seattube front- than the Corsa Extras (with bolt on the very top of lug, and shorter lip). I was going through the frames on cadre site, and only early Professionals (all the bikes in the oldest catalogue), or Stradas and Corsas till cca 87 have that lug. Not on any Corsa extra.
Find 10 differences game, eh?
Edit: Darn I can never get the post where it belongs.


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## Wheelspeed

Okay, I finally ordered the lock-nut wrench and pin-spanner today.

You guys are getting me fired up. Do you think this stem would be cool on my bike? (It's black, and I was thinking I'd keep everything silver, but, ... it's pantographed and it's the right length for me. Hmmmm) 
Ebay- 
http://cgi.ebay.com/CINELLI-XA-1-QU...sure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item564208cf17


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## aptivaboy

Do bears you know what in the woods? It would look great, especially if you went with black or super dark grey bars, as well.

Thanks for pointing out where the Strada is in the catalog. Duh, how did I miss that?


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## Wheelspeed

Seat stays are about 0.55" near the top and middle, then taper down to about 0.46" down near the drop-outs.

I rec'd the lock ring tool and just have to get around to taking the bb off now.


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## Wheelspeed

Okay, just to add more in case someone is in a similar predicamant as I in another couple years...

The tubes are smooth on the inside. So, apparently it's 753 even though my bb doesn't have any letter stamped on the left side. (Do you still call it the left side when the bike is upside down. I don't know, but left side when upside down.) "B" and then "2077" below that, both on the right side of the bb when bike is upside down.

Thanks for all your help everyone! I'm having second thoughts on painting it this year, but still nice to know more about it. Sometimes people ask about it or comment on it, so it'll be nice to know more about the bike for those conversations.

Enjoy the ride! :thumbsup:


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## Wheelspeed

*Still loving it!*

Hey folks!,

Just figured I'd give you an update from this old mtb convert. I guess you know that chickened out on the repaint after hearing that a low-cost powder-coat may not give satisfying results. So, I touched it up with rust-fix in a couple spots and have been enjoying it some more this summer. I just took it around a nice downhill 160-degree corner and I think I got a personal-record lean-angle out of it. Felt great! I treated the bike to a new saddle that's 150g lighter, and to a couple King Ti cages that dropped another 70g or so. If you count new shoes that are 185g lighter than my mtb shoes that I used to ride with, then I've enjoyed some zoomy weight-loss! Trying to get some components on it more respectable to the frame and lose the muddy-shoe-look. Maybe next year I'll replace my 414g SPD pedals.  I still get questions and comments on it, so it's great to be able to give a bit more details of the bike that I've learned here.

Anyway... I want to get my ducks in a row for this coming winter...

Is it normal to have to battle rust so much on a 20-year old bike? This bike was possibly/probably repainted, and maybe the previous painter didn't pre-treat it correctly. Would any of you suggest a treatment before painting? It seems that it's 753 if that makes a difference on treatment. I mean a professional place that treats steel bicycle frames, not some Home Depot spray-on treatment, (which, admittedly, would be my normal MO). (Unless it's like $700, then I'll think about the Home Depot stuff again.) (Many of my comments have to be in parenthesis.)

Besides your suggestions on treatment for 753, I welcome any suggestions of a good painter.

Best,
-John


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## aptivaboy

Others will know more, but here's my two bits. I think it all depends upon how the frame was originally painted, treated, and then stored. My 1986 Specialized Allez SE has no rust on it, despite being ridden in more rain than I can remember for many, many years. It was a pretty well made and finished bike for the price, and I took good care of it. On the other hand, many Italian frames from way back in the day weren't reckoned to have great paint and finish jobs, and they may have been more susceptible to rust. 

One thing you could do is to insulate the frame from cable pull. Some riders use cable liners for the under the bracket areas to stop the cables from cutting into the bracket shell, exposing the metal, and leading to more rust. That's a route I intend to take with my Gran Prix. 

I'd contact a good frame restorer and repainter, like Joe Bell or whomever you use, and ask about rustproofing and anti-rust treatments, especially if you choose to go the the professional repainting route. 


Robert


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## Wheelspeed

aptivaboy said:


> Others will know more, but here's my two bits. I think it all depends upon how the frame was originally painted, treated, and then stored. My 1986 Specialized Allez SE has no rust on it, despite being ridden in more rain than I can remember for many, many years. It was a pretty well made and finished bike for the price, and I took good care of it. On the other hand, many Italian frames from way back in the day weren't reckoned to have great paint and finish jobs, and they may have been more susceptible to rust.
> 
> One thing you could do is to insulate the frame from cable pull. Some riders use cable liners for the under the bracket areas to stop the cables from cutting into the bracket shell, exposing the metal, and leading to more rust. That's a route I intend to take with my Gran Prix.
> 
> I'd contact a good frame restorer and repainter, like Joe Bell or whomever you use, and ask about rustproofing and anti-rust treatments, especially if you choose to go the the professional repainting route.
> 
> 
> Robert


Thanks Robert. I definitely don't have a restorer or repainter that I "use". I'll look up Joe Bell. Thanks for your comments on rust. I'm noticing substantial rust spots in the middle of the top tube on the outside... god knows what's happening on the inside, so I'm more than a little nervous. But, hasn't broken yet!  Yes, I see rust on the BB, but that seems pretty sturdy/thick down there. It's the thin-section of the middle part of other tubing that makes me nervous.


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## pmf

Wheelspeed said:


> Besides your suggestions on treatment for 753, I welcome any suggestions of a good painter.
> 
> Best,
> -John


I have an Eddy Merckx frame that's repainted by this shop, and it looks friggin fabulous:

http://www.southwestframeworks.com/

Check out their frame repaints page. He'll treat your rust spots, prep the frame, paint whatever you want. He exactly matched the decals on my Merckx. He clear coats over the decals so they stay looking good. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for.


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## martinrjensen

Look carefully on the left (opposite) side of the bottom bracket. There should be some numbers or letters designating the size and the model. It's right where you have a patch of rust and you might need a magnifying glass to see them.


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## Wheelspeed

pmf said:


> I have an Eddy Merckx frame that's repainted by this shop, and it looks friggin fabulous:
> 
> http://www.southwestframeworks.com/
> 
> Check out their frame repaints page. He'll treat your rust spots, prep the frame, paint whatever you want. He exactly matched the decals on my Merckx. He clear coats over the decals so they stay looking good. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for.


Wow, that place does seem to know what they're doing. I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.


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## sargeants

*Faema Transfers*

Hi there guys,
On the subject of transfers, would anyone know where I can get some Faema ones?
Cheers


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## Wheelspeed

Hey folks! Just had the need to post that I'm still loving the old bike. It's still my only road bike, other than my wife's and I tandem road bike. I've been lazy/cheap to send the frame off to repaint, but instead sanded the bad portions and clear-coated so that at least I can keep an eye on it easier.

I had to travel to Phoenix in early spring, which, coming from cold Pittsburgh, of course I had to rent a bike for a day to go for a ride in nice weather. They rented me a Specialized Roubaix Sl3 I think (Ultegra). CF frame, which I was curious of because, due to the rust, was thinking of investing in a new road bike soon if I loved the CF that everyone talks about being so perfect with vertical compliance, torsional stiffness or whatever. I'm getting older and wouldn't mind a comfy ride. Well, I was completely unimpressed. To me, it felt stiffer than even my aluminum tandem bike. It felt on par with my '90 aluminum Cannondale mtb bike! Sure, it may have sprinted up a hill while standing and mashing a bit better than the steel bike, but it definitely felt pretty stiff at other times. Anyway, through mtbg I've become more of a spinner since that gives more traction. (Disclaimer is that I don't ride enough to know if stiffness comes from a stiff frame or maybe stiff wheels, but that bike felt pretty stiff over small bumps.)

Anyways, thanks everyone for your help. It's cool to be able to describe the bike better and I'm not planning to sell it anytime soon!


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## pmf

If you want to repaint that bike, I'd recommend these guys:

Southwest Frameworks

I bought a frame off ebay that had been repainted by them. It was really nice. They do the decals and paint. It's not all that expensive and you get a basically new frame. There is magic in those Merckx bikes.


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## martinrjensen

In your first picture of the bottom bracket, it really looks like I could faintly see part of a stamped letter that looked like a O or more likely a C. It's in the edge of that larger rust spot. A C would be a corsa. An O would mean nothing other than the last digit of the frame size was on that side of the bottom bracket also so if the frame is a 60cm that would fit. Again, I can't really tell for sure but it looks loke a stamp mark to me in your first picture.


Wheelspeed said:


> Thanks everyone for all of your help so far. After reading various links that all of you posted, it appears that 753 bikes were good for mountain stages. If mine is a 753, that's pretty neat since I live in Pittsburgh and all of my rides include "mountain stages". :wink5: When I repaint, I'd like to include the 753 sticker, but hate to do that if I'm not sure.
> 
> One thing that makes me nervous is the lack of a letter stamped on the left side of the bb (left side when the bike is upside down).
> 
> Supporting that it may be 753 is that I saw in the '89 Merckx catalog that one 753 bike color is pearl white. Maybe that's mine but with a custom paint job that added the yellow and blue to the base white? However, my seat tube decals in the wrong place make me wonder if it's a Merckx paint job.
> 
> I've written Gita bikes... have to see if they respond.
> 
> Since the "B" in my serial number suggest 88 or 89, and I didn't see mine in the 89 catalog, has anyone ever found an 88 catalog online?
> 
> Maybe today I'll pull the crank off and feel inside the downtube for a lack of rifling. Also, I couldn't find the section of "Classic Rendezvous" that talks about measuring a frame with calipers to know if it's 753.(?)


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## Wheelspeed

I don't know... I can't tell.


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