# Going custom...Tubing: Spirit or Zona or Airplane?



## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

I'm investigating a custom CX and am trying to decide on frame material: Columbus Spirit or Zona steel, or Columbus Airplane aluminum. 

I love the feel of steel, but a full Zona frameset will be ~4lbs (guesstimate). I asked the builder about using lighter Spirit tubing (they typically use Zona for CX) and they will, but won't guarantee it. Not sure why...I've asked for more details.

I'm 135lbs and will be racing. Wheels/tires will be tubulars (likely, Dugast). Fork will be carbon. 

The only steel I've ridden in the last couple of years was an older Norco Team 853. Since then, I've been on Ti. My current CX (Empella Bonfire) is aluminum. I've never been a fan of the harsh ride with aluminum, but it would build a lighter CX.

So, what would you go with? Pros/cons to each?


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## welcomdmat (Jan 1, 1970)

I have ridden Zona, Spirit, and Airplane. For the ride, the shaped steel is very stiff. The Spirit and Airplane were on road bikes -- the Airplane was lighter, but I can't say it was a better ride. Spirit and Zona are stiffer than round tube steel. For durability, Spirit is solid. What is the guarantee? I would feel more confident that Spirit could handle a dent in the tubeing than with Airplane.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

i would discuss it with my builder


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## euro-trash (May 1, 2004)

I'd say don't go with a tubing your builder won't guarantee- either find a different steel, or find a new builder if you go that route. What about Columbus Life tubing? I have a Hottubes in Life and it's probably 3.4. 

Airplane is light, but I've seen road bikes get dented by gravel being kicked-up by people ahead of them. Those dents aren't structural impediments, but it still makes you wonder.... If Wunlap is checking the board these days, maybe he can chime in on whether this is an issue with Scandium as well. Again, this could be quite minor.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

d2p said:


> i would discuss it with my builder


Oh, I will. I'm just curious what you guys think.


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## musgravecycles (Sep 8, 2004)

as a builder I say let your builder decide, he will make the best choice based on your size, ridding style, etc, etc... 

Having said that ask him to look into PegoRichie, it's the cats meow...


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## DY123 (Oct 5, 2006)

I'd go with Zona..........


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

How does Columbus stack up to TT or Reynolds steel? I am not familiar with Columbus tubing designations but it looks like Colnago Masters use them.


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## lithuania (Dec 22, 2007)

have you thought about s3?


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

S3 is good. Some Aluminum-scandium tube sets are quite robust if you want light.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

lithuania said:


> have you thought about s3?


Yes, I'm considering S3. Any experiences with it?


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

Dajianshan said:


> S3 is good. Some Aluminum-scandium tube sets are quite robust if you want light.


But, how is the "feel"? Most aluminum frames I've ridden (granted, there haven't been many) were harsh. I love the feel of Ti and steel, just not the cost of Ti or the weight of steel.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

MIN in PDX said:


> How does Columbus stack up to TT or Reynolds steel? I am not familiar with Columbus tubing designations but it looks like Colnago Masters use them.


Here are some links to Strong's tube specs and material tech pages.


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

Steel doesn't have to be heavy, nor does aluminum have to be stiff. You can't make generalizations simply based on material choice. If you're working with a builder who has more than a few years experience they should have a good feel for what material type, tube diameter, construction method, etc. will give you the bike you're looking for. Talk to your builder about the ride characteristics you want and what you're willing to pay. Allow them the freedom to craft a frame for you that meets your needs.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

Cyclo-phile said:


> Steel doesn't have to be heavy, nor does aluminum have to be stiff. You can't make generalizations simply based on material choice. If you're working with a builder who has more than a few years experience they should have a good feel for what material type, tube diameter, construction method, etc. will give you the bike you're looking for. Talk to your builder about the ride characteristics you want and what you're willing to pay. Allow them the freedom to craft a frame for you that meets your needs.


True enough...all of the aluminum bikes I've ridden were stock. Whereas, all of the Ti I've ridden were customs. So, completely apples to oranges comparison.

If I'm looking for light-weight steel, it would be Columbus Spirit or TT S3. But, 2 builders have voiced concerns over using the lighter Spirit tubing. Reasons: denting and buckling. I haven't heard too much about S3. Once you get into the higher-end steels (953, etc.), the price is too close to Ti, at which point, I'd go Ti!

So, if weight becomes the driving factor (which, to a certain extent it is, but not the main factor), then I'd look at aluminum (Columbus Airplane). But, I'm just not a fan of aluminum. And, again, maybe it's broad generalizations, but I prefer steel/Ti.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

How does it feel? It depends on the bike and the geometry and the wheels and..and .. and... During one testing session I rode about a dozen bikes of different materials produced by a major Taiwanese manufacturer (all without paint like the Pepsi challenge). They all felt different... some ti were better than steel, some steel better than other steel...and some aluminum better then other non aluminum and some carbon that felt like crap. Lots of factors. I picked an aluminum-scandium because it felt "right". I was planning for S3 and I was impressed, but the bike I rode didn't feel "right". Maybe another bike..another city... who knows.


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## jerry_in_VT (Oct 13, 2006)

musgravecycles said:


> as a builder I say let your builder decide, he will make the best choice based on your size, ridding style, etc, etc...
> 
> Having said that ask him to look into PegoRichie, it's the cats meow...


Pegorichie is another name for Columbus "Spirit for Lugs", which, if I interpret/regergitate the information correctly, is a tweak of the Spirit tubeset to be more appropriate for lugged (not tigged) frame builders.

I cant imagine any tubing being too light for you at 135. Richard Sachs frames have been heavily tested on cross bikes, and I dont think he has ever had a failure. Richard himself hit a rock wall like object at suckerbrook, at full speed, into a sand pit and went over. There was an almost imperceptible crease in the downtube, I could barely feel it. He still races that frame.

I have run into an electric fence at full speed (on my sachs), at the bottom of a downhill chute onto a farm field and effing launched, snapping all the wires, etc. No damage. I was sure that the whole frame was DONE on that one.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

jerry_in_VT said:


> I have run into an electric fence at full speed.......snapping all the wires.


That must have been shocking.


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## jerry_in_VT (Oct 13, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> That must have been shocking.


I was getting shocked trying to unravel the wire that had coiled around the down tube! its sucked!


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## lithuania (Dec 22, 2007)

i have an s3 road and mountain bike. It feels just like steel to me. I dont have much to compare it to other than older heavy steel bikes. My road bike has gotten kind of flexy inthe bottem bracket after two years.

My mountain bike has a big ole dent in the downtube near the bottem bracket and its still holds up fine almost 2 years later.


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## jt2gt (Aug 25, 2004)

I have a custom scandium Rock Lobster and an IF steel and notice no difference in harshness (my back doesn't either) especially during a 1 hour cross race. But I do notice a difference in power transfer and weight. I was very skeptical of the scandium, but it raced great and Paul really knows how to do a cross frame. I swore off aluminum after racing MTB on a Specialized years ago...but was very happy with how the RL performed.

JT


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Scandium is a lovely Alu*

and yes of all Al derivatives I have had the nicest results from it

I'd ask the builder, heck for cx I or he may choose Foco.

I don't think I'd choose the lightest tubeset of any material for cx


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## ZenNMotion (May 28, 2004)

1speed_Mike said:


> I asked the builder about using lighter Spirit tubing (they typically use Zona for CX) and they will, but won't guarantee it. Not sure why...I've asked for more details.


Well that should give you an indication. I assume you've chosen a builder you like and trust. You're paying for a builder's expertise and then ignoring the advice. They've had the experience of working with the different steels, and had some experience with the results which should mean a lot more than your internet "research" and random forum-polling. If your builder isn't confident with using the lighter material, either because they their preference is for a stiffer structure, or have a more conservative opinion of safety margins, or just feel uncomfortable with their experience in the ultra-thin steels, in any case you should respect that. If you must have the lightest, you can find another builder who is comfortable with the lighter stuff if you want, because of a different set of working opinions/assumptions, or just different experience. But it doesn't serve you to ask a builder to build outside their comfort zone. In any case, the difference in weight is going to be on the order of 1/2 to 3/4 pounds, probably closer to 1/2. At your weight I'd be tempted to ask about thicker gauge, but with standard old-school tubing diameters, assuming you're looking for a smallish frame size, saves weight, less problems with denting. But in any case, talk to your chosen builder, and then stay out of the micromanagement and let him/her work their magic for you the way they know best- That's what you're paying for after all, otherwise just get something off the rack and be done with it.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

ZenNMotion said:


> Well that should give you an indication. I assume you've chosen a builder you like and trust.


At this point, I'm still looking at options for builders. 2 builders said that there could be issues with denting/buckling with the lighter-weight/thinner tubes.



> You're paying for a builder's expertise and then ignoring the advice.


Absolutely not. I got a brief reply from the builder saying yes, they could build using Spirit, but wouldn't guarantee it. I was curious why, so I asked and got my answer. While I was waiting for the reply to my question as to "why" they wouldn't, I asked here.

And, I've not settled on a builder or put any money down.



> They've had the experience of working with the different steels, and had some experience with the results which should mean a lot more than your internet "research" and random forum-polling.


Absolutely!



> If your builder isn't confident with using the lighter material, either because they their preference is for a stiffer structure, or have a more conservative opinion of safety margins, or just feel uncomfortable with their experience in the ultra-thin steels, in any case you should respect that.


Couldn't agree more!



> If you must have the lightest, you can find another builder who is comfortable with the lighter stuff if you want, because of a different set of working opinions/assumptions, or just different experience.


Currently investigating lots of custom builders. 



> But it doesn't serve you to ask a builder to build outside their comfort zone


Agreed...but, unless you ask the question, you won't know the answer. The builder only listed Zona for their CX bikes, but had Spirit/Life listed for Road. Because I'm only ~130lbs, I was curious if they could use Spirit/Life for CX. I got my answer. Other builders say it's OK. So, depending on who you ask, you get a different answer. So, I thought I'd throw the questions out to the forum.


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## musgravecycles (Sep 8, 2004)

Zona which is typically 8-5-8 walls would be too heavy for you @ 135lbs bro. 

Yes PegoRichie is Spirit for Lugs, it was designed for lugged building but works beautifully for TIG too. It's fairly light and as Jerry pointed out bombproof. I'm 6'3" and 170lbs, my next cx frame will be PegoRichie. 

Some have been using Spirit (thin wall/31.8/35mm tubes) with an S3 head tube for a very light frame. Sachs's been using them (S3 HT) on his team bikes/speedvagen's without issue for several seasons. But If you ride a small frame Spirit might not leave enough of the butt on the ends, I'd have take a looksee at your frame design. 135lbs isn't enough to worry about the "beer-can" effect as long as the butts work out for you, I wouldn't hesitate to put someone that weight on Spirit. But then again, larger/thinner pipe's, while lighter, will have a ride more akin to aluminum ("harsh") than a more 'normal' tube will. 

Without knowing more about you my first inkling would be PegoRichie with a S3 HT... But again, tell your builder what you're after and let him choose the rest, he's not likely to lead you astray... 

Which fork are you looking into?


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

musgravecycles said:


> Zona which is typically 8-5-8 walls would be too heavy for you @ 135lbs bro.


That's what I'm thinking, too.



> Yes PegoRichie is Spirit for Lugs, it was designed for lugged building but works beautifully for TIG too. It's fairly light and as Jerry pointed out bombproof. I'm 6'3" and 170lbs, my next cx frame will be PegoRichie.


I don't know a lot about PegoRichie, but I'm looking into it...thx!



> Some have been using Spirit (thin wall/31.8/35mm tubes) with an S3 head tube for a very light frame. Sachs's been using them (S3 HT) on his team bikes/speedvagen's without issue for several seasons. But If you ride a small frame Spirit might not leave enough of the butt on the ends, I'd have take a looksee at your frame design.


Here's just a quick frame design I came-up with using BikeCAD. It should give you an approximate idea, anyway:












> 135lbs isn't enough to worry about the "beer-can" effect as long as the butts work out for you, I wouldn't hesitate to put someone that weight on Spirit. But then again, larger/thinner pipe's, while lighter, will have a ride more akin to aluminum ("harsh") than a more 'normal' tube will.


Yes, larger/thinner pipes would be stiffer/harsher due to the larger diameter. So, it's a balancing act between weight and ride quality. At which point, I go ride quality and suck-up the extra fews grams.



> Which fork are you looking into?


Still undecided. But, probably carbon although I was thinking about a steel straight bladed fork, but that would add a ton of weight. So, Easton, Reynolds, AlphaQ, etc. will likely be the fork.


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## dyg2001 (Sep 23, 2004)

The more of these posts I read, the more I understand why eRichie says he doesn't really make custom frames atmo.

http://www.belgiumkneewarmers.com/2007/10/interview-with-richard-sachs-part-two.html

How many custom steel cyclocross frames have you built, or had build for you?
What makes you think that you (or strangers on an internet forum) know better than an experienced framebuilder what brand of tubing you need for the downtube, or what length chainstays down to the millimeter?

It's like going to a surgeon because you want your gallbladder taken out, and then trying to convince him or her to use either the Veress or Hasson insufflation technique, or the Harmonic scalpel vs. Ligasure. 

My advice is to spend more time trying to find a framebuilder that you click with, and less on the brand of tubes or the other details.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

good advice dyg. Tell the builder what you want and your budget and trust them to do their trade. Keep all options on the table cause your preconceptions could be cutting your options down. Save your anxious energy for the component mix.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

LOL! Don't get so worked-up! I'm just having fun with BikeCAD. Musgrave wanted an idea of what frame I'd be riding, so instead of rhyming off numbers, I plugged them and got a virtual pic. I don't pretend to be an expert and will certainly let the builder do their thing, once I decide on who that builder will be and what the material will be. I'm just curious what other's think. Yes, there's a lot of BS to go through, but every so often you get some good info. Sorry if you took it any offense, but I quite enjoy the process of spec'ing a custom bike, builders, tubes, etc....it's the engineer in me. I might go overboard and over-analyse, but hey, it's all virtual right now so why not? No harm done. Once a decision is made and the money is down, I'll feel confident in my decision.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

"what the material will be" thats the point. I would let the builder choose or at least listen to their thoughts before deciding


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

kiwisimon said:


> "what the material will be" thats the point. I would let the builder choose or at least listen to their thoughts before deciding


Yes, but that depends on the builder you ask. I've asked a few and received different answers. I'm just gathering all the info right-now, which includes listening to what they do/don't recommend.


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## DY123 (Oct 5, 2006)

1 - Zona is not typically 8/5/8. It is a available in 7/5/7 or 8/5/8. I've built many with the 7/5/7 for light riders.
2 - Check the specs on Spirit for lugs and you'll see it can actually be heavier than Zona.
3 - Beer can effect has nothing to do with rider weight. It is a function of tube wall thickness for a given diameter. It is the tendency for a tube to dent if it is hit by something.
4 - It's kind of like apples and oranges when you say Sacha uses an S3 headtube. It's not a plain S3 headtube. It is a S3 headtube that is reinforced....

Are you going tigged or lugged? If you are going tigged.......why consider a tube that was designed for lugs?

Just my suggestions and thoughts.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

DY123 said:


> 2 - Check the specs on Spirit for lugs and you'll see it can actually be heavier than Zona.


one point -
_*PegoRichie*_ (sfl) comes in at least 2 weights and 3 length combos atmo.


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## Float (May 27, 2005)

I was impressed with this builder from NHMBS 08. 

http://www.333fab.com/

If I was custom ordering a lightweight steel bike they are top O the list for me.

I ride a 16.5 EOM road bike and Scandium CX bike - I feel both are bleeding edge stuff that seems to be holding up to my punishment.


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## musgravecycles (Sep 8, 2004)

DY123 said:


> 1 - Zona is not typically 8/5/8. It is a available in 7/5/7 or 8/5/8. I've built many with the 7/5/7 for light riders.


I didn't say it was only in 8/5/8, I said *typically*; Kirk Pacenti told me that he sells a lot more 8/5/8 Zona than 7/4/7 Zona, apparently most builders who want 7/4/7 end up using something else.



DY123 said:


> 2 - Check the specs on Spirit for lugs and you'll see it can actually be heavier than Zona.


as e-Red pointed out the tube-lengths/butts/thicknesses of Spirit for Lugs have all been optimized for particular frame sizes, must compare apples to apples...



DY123 said:


> 3 - Beer can effect has nothing to do with rider weight. It is a function of tube wall thickness for a given diameter. It is the tendency for a tube to dent if it is hit by something.


Yes you're correct. For the most part it is a function of tube diameter to thickness that leads to this, however larger frames with longer pipes (and heavier riders) tend to be more susceptible to it as the tubes are more heavily loaded. In any case imho 32/35mm tubes are a bit overkill for a 135lb rider anyway... 



DY123 said:


> 4 - It's kind of like apples and oranges when you say Sacha uses an S3 head tube. It's not a plain S3 head tube. It is a S3 head tube that is reinforced....


the 'reinforcement' that Sacha uses is more aesthetic than anything. Bert Hull, the engineer at True Temper, told me a couple of weeks ago that they've been using S3 head tubes for mountain bikes without issue. I'm 100% confident that for a rider as small as 1speed_ Mike a S3 HT would be perfectly fine. 



DY123 said:


> Are you going tigged or lugged? If you are going tigged.......why consider a tube that was designed for lugs?


Again see above: In short because PegoRichie is available in varying lengths/butts/walls to suit varying frame sizes. It's solid tubing, with sensible butts designed by the bestest in the business. It really is the cats meow when it comes to tubing. But I've said since my first post in this thread that the builder needs to be the final say. He/She knows best what they are comfortable with...


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## jerry_in_VT (Oct 13, 2006)

one thing i will add, just cause i think of it often when riding my road bike - if you go with thin wall tubing for the head tube, and its not lugged, for heavens sake add the reinforcing rings where the headset presses in.

this is my second bike with a thin head tube and I swear, they dont stay tight. this one is a dean/ionic so its well made. I just think super thinwall head tubes are not worth the 20 grams the reinforcing rings cost you.

my other thinwall headtube was on a cross bike and I ovalized it badly. I had to build it up with braze to make the cup stay in at all.

Just saying, it bugs the crap out of me on my road bike.


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## musgravecycles (Sep 8, 2004)

Yep, I always braze reinforcing rings onto head tubes...


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

One thing I've seen around here are a lot of aluminum cross bikes with dents in the top tube from when the bars whip around and smack the top tube during a crash. My friend had a new Ridley that lasted all of 15 seconds because he got caught up in a crash after the start. 

One thing to consider. What's the price of an extra pound?


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

CurbDestroyer said:


> One thing I've seen around here are a lot of aluminum cross bikes with dents in the top tube from when the bars whip around and smack the top tube during a crash. My friend had a new Ridley that lasted all of 15 seconds because he got caught up in a crash after the start.
> 
> One thing to consider. What's the price of an extra pound?


I'm definitely considering this! I've got short legs and those barriers are damn tall and get taller after an hour CX race! So, that's why I'm shying away from thin AL/steel tubes. I'd like the frame to last at least 3 seasons (that includes CX racing Sept-Dec, plus, winter riding with Nokian studded tires and training on the roads in the spring with 23s to save the roadie), so durability, fatigue-life, etc are considerations, but so is weight and ride quality. In the end, I've got to decide if I'm willing to spend the extra $$ on Ti to get the benefits of weight, durability, fatigue, etc. I didn't really want to go Ti and was researching steel as an alternative. But, once you get into the lighter steels, price is too close to Ti. Having owned 5 Ti bikes in 10-yrs, it's a tubing that has never failed me in anyway. Just a quick buff with some Lemon Pledge and my 5+yr old frame looks as good as new.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

1speed_Mike said:


> I've got short legs and those barriers are damn tall and get taller after an hour CX race!


Lobby for stepped-down inseam-related barriers Mike and scream discrimination if they don't ok it. Fair's fair eh? :idea:


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Lobby for stepped-down inseam-related barriers Mike and scream discrimination if they don't ok it. Fair's fair eh? :idea:


Yes, when I see the likes of Greg Reain, etc clearing the barriers with ease, it makes me sick! Ok, he's a fast mofo, but his longer-than-my-legs are definitely helping him! They really should have 2 sets of barriers


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

1speed_Mike said:


> Yes, when I see the likes of Greg Reain, etc clearing the barriers with ease, it makes me sick! They really should have 2 sets of barriers


If my idea fails, try for ride-arounds.


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