# Six13 paint blisters



## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

My 2005 six13 frame developed paint blisters on the aluminium sections of the tubes. They appear in close proximity to the intersection of tubes. They are not necessarily located where the carbon and aluminium meet. They are a variety of sizes. Some are as small as pin heads, while others are about an inch and a half across, irregular and high enough in relief to be very noticeable. They are so hard that you cannot depress them with you thumb nail, as though the metal is rusting under the paint. The paint has not flaked off, yet. The bike is in otherwise new condition. I have never even ridden it in the rain. Has anyone else had these blisters? What are they? Do you think they make the frame unsafe?
I bought the bike second hand (out of the classified section of this website) and the original owner says that the blisters were not there when he shipped the bike (via air express). Cannondale does not warranty the bike beyond the original owner, so it appears that I am stuck with the bike and this problem. I am interested if anyone else has had this problem because I am looking for suggestions. 
I can send photos of the blisters to you if you are interested.


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## YakuzaSmurf (Sep 15, 2005)

I doubt it is rust, but I would be concerned. I suggest you e-mail Cannondale (and maybe send them a couple of digital pics) or take it to a good shop if you have one near bye. I have seen plenty of paint bubbles on cars and bikes, and all of them were pretty easy to pop with a thumb nail. Anyway, Cannondale may not fix the frame for you, but they will probably tell you if it is structural or cosmetic. I hope it is cosmetic! Anyway, let me know how you make out...


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

Thank you for the advice. I took the bike to the best bike shop where I live (a Cannondale dealer) and they said that the problem is cosmetic. Nevertheless, they said that most certainly, if the bike was purchased from them, and if I was the original purchaser, it would be a warranty issue and the frame would be returned to Cannondale immediately for replacement. Initially they determined that the bumps are weld spatter from when it was manufactured. I have been doubtful of this explanation because I understand that six13 frames should be flawlessly smooth and a frame with large blotches of weld spatter would never be sold. My bike shop said I should photograph the blisters to determine if they are growing over time. 
Could the blisters occur when the bike was shipped via air freight? (I hesitate to ask because that seems very far fetched.)


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## YakuzaSmurf (Sep 15, 2005)

I do not think it is weld splatter. I have old Cannondale catalogs that describe how Cannondale goes through a lot of trouble to smooth their welds down. They also so people doing this in an episode of "Made in America." 

I also do not think it is from shipping. I am under the impression that the cargo holds in jets are pressurized like the passenger compartments. I do not think the frame could have been subjected to some atmospheric extreme that would have caused this to happen.

How long did you have your frame before you noticed this issue? I cannot imagine you would have missed it when you first recieved your bike. I do not know about you, but I always look my new toys over closely when I get them... especially if they are used. How many miles do you have on the bike? Are the blisters in locations where you might not notice them during everyday use (for example, on the underside of the downtube near the bottom bracket)?


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

I agree with you. The bumps are not weld spatter, thought that is how they appear. The bumps appear on the sides of ALL the tubes, but never on areas on the 
underside or the tops of the tubes. 

I have owned it since September, 2005. The original owner says that the blisters were not there when he shipped the bike to me (via air express). The bumps were on the bike when I unpacked it. I have been in contact many times with the previous owner and he said he never saw the bumps before the bike was shipped. He does not have an explanation for the problem. The larger bumps are noticeable from several paces away. It shows very poorly.

The previous owner said he sent photos of the bumps to his Cannodale rep, but I have heard no response, so I took your advice and this afternoon I wrote Cannondale to please help me with this problem. I asked them to extend the waranty to cover this problem.


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## Boardmill (Oct 15, 2005)

I would be interested to see some pictures, though they may be hard to take. It could be they left some resin (epoxy, used to bond) on the aluminum tubes. Bare epoxy always 'soaks' up paint differently from anything else, giving the spot a different finish. If there was a little dried resin on the tube it would leave the paint looking off from where the bare aluminum was painted. 

I could easily see them slopping a little epoxy on the aluminum, maybe even leaving some finger prints, and then getting real nervous with solvents and sanding right in the area where the tubes meet. They don't want to hit the carbon with a sander or a solvent like acetone.

I've done a lot of work using composites and epoxy for repairs. One of the hardest things to learn was how to get the paint to look even upon completion. I would spend all this time making the repair perfect and fairing it exactly; only to paint it so you could then see the repair exactly (to my eye at least). The repaired section would have a slightly different sheen or would be slightly convex/ concave because of the different absorbing of materials. Often the finish would get even more noticeable over time and there would be some small pin holes that were not there before. Eventually I figured out how to seal the epoxy so it painted the same as the surroundings.

Just a guess, I could be wrong.


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

Thank you for your insight and experience with composites to help me figure this out. It sounds correct that there is a reaction happening under the paint. The bumps, however, are not just a change in the texture or sheen of the paint. In fact they are blisters in high relief. They extend beyond the surface as much as the thickness of a penny, or even a nickel. They are hard under the paint and unlike paint blisters, I cannot indent them with my thumbnail. I sent you a private message to arrange to send you photos.
Could the epoxy cause a reaction to boil up that much? Do you think an epoxy reaction is impacting the frame to an extent that is may be unsafe to ride?
The blister and bumps occur in the same place on all the tubes: on the sides of the tubes within a few inches of the intersections of the tubes.
Thank you for your consideration.


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## Boardmill (Oct 15, 2005)

mkrauss said:


> Thank you for your insight and experience with composites to help me figure this out. It sounds correct that there is a reaction happening under the paint. The bumps, however, are not just a change in the texture or sheen of the paint. In fact they are blisters in high relief. They extend beyond the surface as much as the thickness of a penny, or even a nickel. They are hard under the paint and unlike paint blisters, I cannot indent them with my thumbnail. I sent you a private message to arrange to send you photos.
> Could the epoxy cause a reaction to boil up that much? Do you think an epoxy reaction is impacting the frame to an extent that is may be unsafe to ride?
> The blister and bumps occur in the same place on all the tubes: on the sides of the tubes within a few inches of the intersections of the tubes.
> Thank you for your consideration.


Okay, if they are elevated that much there must be some kind of reaction going on. 

When the Six13 first came out I talked about the concept with guy who has an incredible amount of composite experience from the marine industry. Mostly I was interested in trying to splice carbon tubes into a CAAD 3 road frame I had sitting around. I did this a little while ago and the bike seems to work great, definitely much smoother then in the old configuration. 

However, this guy advised me against the project because he swears that carbon and aluminum react when it contact with each other (like other metals do), and told me the aluminum would fail much quicker then if left alone. Even though this guy is 'the man' when it comes to composites and bonding to metals, etc. I somewhat discounted what he had to say because his frame of reference did not extend outside a salt water environment. I have had no problems with my bike and there are a ton of manufacturers using aluminum/ carbon constructions.

Does this bike have a salty past? 

One thing I would say is you probably don't want to be riding this bike. Given the wall thickness of the aluminum, if you are getting blisters as high as a nickel is thick, the aluminum probably doesn't have much structural integrity anymore in this spot. I.e. if enough material moved up to create a blister this thick, how much could be left in the wall of the tube below?

I definitely don't mind looking at some pictures. It may be better to post them in case others have this problem in the future.

This seems to be extending outside my area of expertise. The aluminum and paint guys need to be heard from. I would email the guys at Cannondale too.


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

Boardmill, thank you for your response and concern. This is beginning to sound serious. You ask if the bike has a salty past? All I know is that the past owner was from Atlanta, and as it is a coastal city, the bike would have been in contact with salty air breezes. The bike shows very little wear from use, so it's exposure to the elements is probably limited. I probably laid more salt from sweat on the bike yesterday when I rode it in my stationary trainer.
I apologize that the attached pictures are quite poor in quality. They show the location more than the true size and relief of the bumps. The blister near the bottom bracket is as large as your thumb to the first knukle. The blisters at the front shown in the photo are about as large as your index finger to the first knuckle -- It's irritating how noticable that one is when looking at the bike. I will endeavor to get better pics as soon as I can borrow a decent digital camera. 
I wrote C'dale customer service yesterday and gave them these photos. No response yet.


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## dlbcx (Aug 28, 2002)

This like to me that the surface wasn't prep'd correctly; it could be some entrapped oil or contaminant that wasn't removed or degreased properly. You could have the old paint stripped then repainted.
Carbon and aluminum can coexist in a frame, provided there is an insulation layer between them, like fiberglass.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

dlbcx said:


> it could be some entrapped oil or contaminant that wasn't removed or degreased properly.


Perhaps someone sneezed...


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## topflightpro (Nov 3, 2004)

Just so you know. Atlanta, GA is not a coastal city. It's 300 miles to the nearest ocean. It is also on a plateau 1,000 feet above sea level (Until the Colorado Rockies were formed, the Braves played in the highest elevation stadium in the country). 

I can guarantee you that there were no salty breezes blowing through Atlanta affecting your bike.


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## RocketDog (Apr 9, 2005)

*Corrosion*

I think you've got some corrosion issues. Likely just superficial, though.


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

Topflightpro, thank you for the correction. How embarrassing! I suppose I should travel more.
Rocket Dog, thank you for the detailed corrosion pic. It seems very similar to the bumps under the paint on my six/13 frame. However, there is a difference in that there are no breaks in my paint. On my frame the boiling up of the metal is happening in the absence of contact with air, water or salt. In your photo, the corrosion appears to occur around rivet or screw head plugs, where paints breaks frequently occur in assembled craft.
There has been some speculation in previous posts that the frame was contaminated by epoxy, fingerprint residue or some other matter and as a result, the paint did not adhere or the contaminant reacted with the aluminium. I considered this scenario but I cannot reconcile one strong piece of evidence against this being the cause. ALL the blisters appear in the same place: on the sides of all the tubes about one inch from the intersection of tubes. A random contamination of one or a few of the tubes is plausible. A contamination of ALL of the tubes, in exactly the same place relative to their position on the bike, is probably impossible. Something very sinister is happening with my frame. I am beginning to think that it must be a problem arising from its manufacture. I am interested in learning if anyone has had a similar experience with the six/13 or other Cannondale or composite frames.
Thanks again, I appreciate all of this input.


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## RocketDog (Apr 9, 2005)

The form of corrosion in the picture requires aeration of some sort. It would need to start at a paint defect. The defects can be microscopic, though. Just my guess, I'm a mechanical engineer, but by no means a corrosion expert. I hope you get some help from Cannondale.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

If the problem occured after the frame was painted, I am surprised that the paint has not cracked and flaked. From the description/photos, it seems that the paint was applied on top of the roughness. 

Have you contacted Cannondale for their opinion?


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

mkrauss said:


> ALL the blisters appear in the same place: on the sides of all the tubes about one inch from the intersection of tubes.


Perhaps their tube cutter clamp head made slight roughness on every tube about the same spot where they were clamped? Or some other varient of that nature...

I'd assume a long tube from the tube Mfg would need to be cut down to roughly of the needed sizes before the final miter cut etc... in this case the cuplit would be just one cutter clamp head...


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

MikeBiker, I called C'dale customer service, explained the problem and they did not give me any help. The customer service representative I spoke to did not have an explanation for the bumps. Nor could she she refer me to technical staff who may have an explanation because I am the second owner of the bike and I do not have a warranty. A recent email with photos and another description of the bumps has been met with silence.
I have learned a lot more from the good people on this discussion thread than from Cannondale or anyone else. I hope I can figure out a way to turn this situation around.


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## PaintIt (Aug 18, 2004)

After painting several dozen Cannondales over the years I have seen similar bubbling on almost all of them. The cause seems to be galvanic corrosion due to the use of different metals together. Do a search for galvanic corrosion carbon fiber and you will find many articles about this. The problem areas seems to be near the carbon/ aluminum joint which is the suspect area. also an issue around the water bottle bosses.

Allan 
creativecycleworks.com


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

Thank you, Allan. I visited the Creative Cycle website. You do fabulous work!
Thanks to your advice, now I know what the problem is. Question now is how can I fix it? I googled galvanic corrosion and quickly scanned the results. Off hand, I didn’t see any advice on repairing the problem. Knowing that you have encountered the problem before, how did you stop the corrosion and repair the blisters? From your experience, can the corrosion be stopped and can the frame be saved?
Now that I know what the problem is, I called C’dale customer service again and the rep said she has never heard of galvanic corrosion affecting their bikes, but she admitted that many people work for the company and they do not share among themselves information about the occurrence of such problems. She confirmed that while I am not the original owner, I have no warranty. She said I could trade in the frame for another one. A new frame would be discounted by approximately 30%, depending on the charges from the retailer.
I argued that the bike may not be safe to ride because of manufacturing flaws. When I asked if Cannondale would stand behind their product, she said that they only stand behind their bikes for original owners.


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## PaintIt (Aug 18, 2004)

Thanks for the complements. 

Most of the Cannondales that I have repainted were aluminum frames and had issues starting around the bottle bosses and migrating under the paint. To help prevent this from reoccuring we replace the bosses with a like metal if needed and treat the aluminum with a corrosion resist chemical before painting. Without scraping the paint off of the areas in question I can only guess what the issue is. If the carbon is directly touching the carbon this problem would probably reoccur over time regardless of the surface prep. I find it difficult to believe that this problem occured between the previous owner shipped it and when it arrived. This is not a overnight or week process. I doubt that the frame will fall apart anytime in the near future but I would scrape down one of the blisters to see what is going on.

Allan


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

It looks like the bubbles are occurring on the areas where the carbon is "keyed" in the aluminum lugs. Therefore the material is likely to be carbon fiber under the bubbles, which in turn, goes a long way in explaining why you can't depress them. Compare your frame to one of the new '06 clear coat team frames and you'll see what I mean.

(The keyed areas on your older frame are actually larger btw.)


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## Koop (Oct 23, 2005)

PaintIt is right on the money. You apparently have a galvanic corrosion issue. Look at this post:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=45460

Interaction between the carbon tube and aluminum lug is the culprit. Application of alodyne or something similar would be needed to stop it, but that would require dis-joining the tubes! For Cannondale to blow you off as a second owner is incredible. This is an obvious engineering/manufacturing shortcoming.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Let's not get carried away here with who's responsible. He's not the original owner and has no claim whatsoever with the manufacturer, even if his frame brakes in half while just riding along. That's simply the rule of the game.


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## Koop (Oct 23, 2005)

divve said:


> Let's not get carried away here with who's responsible. He's not the original owner and has no claim whatsoever with the manufacturer, even if his frame brakes in half while just riding along. That's simply the rule of the game.


Who's the original owner has nothing to do with selling a product with a known flaw in the design or execution. Galvanic action between carbon fiber and aluminum is well known and documented. Sound engineeering mitigates this action through the use protectants such as alodyne and/or insulating the aluminum component with a layer of fiberglass. A design that allows the frame lug to act as a sacrificial anode is a recipe for disaster.

This may or may not be relevant, but I'll pass along an experience I had many years ago. I think it was 1981, I built up a bike around a revolutionary new frame called a Graftek. It had tubes made of graphite carbon fiber bonded to stainless steel lugs. The frame exhibited excellent stiffness to weight.

One day I was on a training ride with the San Diego Bike Club, while descending a hill I thought my headset came loose as the bike began to wobble. The next thing I knew I was leaving my skin on the asphalt as the frame bounced along in two pieces, held together only by the derailluer and brake cables. The bonding in the head lugs failed.

I wrote a letter explaining my experience to the manufacturer which was the Exxon Corporation. Within days I received a phone call asking me to box the frame and send it in. They sent me a check for the full purchase price plus any damaged components and shipping cost. They knew they had a flaw in their bonding material or process and subsequently recalled the frames. This is what an excellent company would do.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

That's just a matter of public relations - cost versus benefit. It has nothing to do with warranty or a design flaw. Bottom line still is: you have no claim to warranty if you're not the original owner. It's clearly stated in their terms of purchase.


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

divve said:


> It looks like the bubbles are occurring on the areas where the carbon is "keyed" in the aluminum lugs. Therefore the material is likely to be carbon fiber under the bubbles, which in turn, goes a long way in explaining why you can't depress them. Compare your frame to one of the new '06 clear coat team frames and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> (The keyed areas on your older frame are actually larger btw.)


Divve,
Thank you for these useful photos. I am really beggining to understand why the galvanic corrosion is happening in the way that it is. If the corrosion is limited to the keyed areas, then perhaps the defect is not making the frame too unsafe.


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## Road Terp (Nov 9, 2005)

*cannondale knows*

Cannondale knows they have a problem with the Six 13.The corrosion is coming from under the paint at the carbon aluminum joint,as has been pointed out.Your problem lies in the fact that you are not the origional owner (that sucks).My clear coat frame had the same problem and has been replaced by Cannondale.Perhaps customer service would be willing to work with you by prorating a new frame.


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## wasfast (Feb 3, 2004)

Koop said:


> I think it was 1981, I built up a bike around a revolutionary new frame called a Graftek. The bonding in the head lugs failed.
> 
> I wrote a letter explaining my experience to the manufacturer which was the Exxon Corporation. Within days I received a phone call asking me to box the frame and send it in. They sent me a check for the full purchase price plus any damaged components and shipping cost. They knew they had a flaw in their bonding material or process and subsequently recalled the frames. This is what an excellent company would do.


They guy that built these frames is a good friend of mine in Corvallis, OR. His name is Bruce Hect and he worked with several other frame builders in So Cal before working at Graftek. The company didn't last long for several reasons but it was a very novel idea at the time. Unfortunately, your experience was rather severe.


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## Koop (Oct 23, 2005)

wasfast said:


> They guy that built these frames is a good friend of mine in Corvallis, OR. His name is Bruce Hect and he worked with several other frame builders in So Cal before working at Graftek. The company didn't last long for several reasons but it was a very novel idea at the time. Unfortunately, your experience was rather severe.


The Grafteks were ahead of their time - look at carbon fiber today. The concept was good, the bonding materials at that time just didn't cope with the stress a bike frame is subjected to. A carbon fork wasn't possible then, I had a chrome plated cro-mo fork on mine. I didn't actually know anyone else with one of these bikes, just heard stories of other frame failures. I don't remember how Exxon was involved, I just remember the Exxon logo on the frame and they were who I dealt with.
My apologies for taking this thread off the OP topic.


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## wasfast (Feb 3, 2004)

Koop said:


> The Grafteks were ahead of their time - look at carbon fiber today. The concept was good, the bonding materials at that time just didn't cope with the stress a bike frame is subjected to. A carbon fork wasn't possible then, I had a chrome plated cro-mo fork on mine. I didn't actually know anyone else with one of these bikes, just heard stories of other frame failures. I don't remember how Exxon was involved, I just remember the Exxon logo on the frame and they were who I dealt with.
> My apologies for taking this thread off the OP topic.


The first time I say them was in Velo News with John Howard, Wayne Stetina and other members of the National team at the time (1977 or so). I don't know if they came before the Alan frames (screwed and glued) or not but the idea is very similiar.


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## mkrauss (Nov 7, 2005)

*Resolved by Cannondale frame exchange program*

Readers of this discussion thread repeatedly advised me to contact Cannondale customer service to seek resolution for manufacturing flaws in my second hand Six13 frame. When I contacted customer service they told me that they could not help me because I am not the original owner threfore the bike has no warranty. Instead they offered to extend their frame exchange program to me. This program is usually applied to frames broken by use or events that are not covered by warranties, like crashes. I contacted my local C’dale dealer, he called the regional representative and a new frame was ordered. I am purchasing the replacement frame for a largely discounted price set by my dealer. As a condition of the sale, the rotten frame will be sent back to C’dale. This situation was resolved to my satisfaction because I will end up with a new frame that will have a warranty. I am especially pleased with the service I received from my local C’dale dealer, Olympia Cycle.
It is interesting to note that the C’dale regional rep said that he has distributed lots and lots of Six 13 frames. He said the galvanic corrosion that is rotting my frame is a very uncommon occurrence on the Six 13 frame.
I learned several things from this experience. Only buy new bikes to get the warranty. Don’t be greedy and don’t buy expensive bikes on the net sight unseen. Internet bike shopping is too risky. There has to be a limit to how far bike companies will support their products. I am satisfied that cutting off warranties to anyone other than the original owner is fair to the bike companies and their network of retail bike stores.
Thank you all for your advice.


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## Koop (Oct 23, 2005)

I'm happy to hear this situation was resolved to your satisfaction. I haven't purchased a bike or frame on the internet and I'm not likely to do so in the future. Your experience makes me feel better about spending a few extra bucks at the LBS and getting full service and warranty.


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## LiteSpeeder (Jan 28, 2004)

I have a CAAD7 road bike and an old CAAD2 mountain bike. Recently, I have been ridding the CAAD2 for commuting and it's been quite rainy this fall. Last week I noticed the same type of paint bubbles around the CAAD2 water bottle frame boses just like Paintit described. I said to myself that this can't be happenning since the CAAD2 is all aluminum. But the water bottle screws are probably causing some sort of galvanic errosion around that area.

So, it seems as if this problem can potentially develop on any Cannondale although it's clearly more prone on carbon frames.


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