# what frame size for 6'4.3" (194 cm)



## levislevis (Feb 5, 2008)

Hi!

I'm a male, 6'4.3" (194 cm), 194 lbs (88 kg) and my inside leg measure 36.2" ,
My plan is to buy Specialized Tarmac or Scott CR1 road bike. 
At the moment I have only mountain bike (Scott Scale, size XL)

Can you help me and suggest what frame size would be best for me?

Thanks for answers!


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*frame size..*

With few exceptions, the only frames that will fit you will be the very largest sold in most brands. Don't bother comparing frame size numbers, like 60cm or 62cm. There are so many differnt ways of measuring these days that it's just confusing. Instead, look at the head tube length as the primary indicator of a frame's vertical size. If you're looking at geometry charts on the web, pay attention to whether the frame uses an integrated or conventional, pressed-in external headset. Conventional headsets add 25-30mm to the head tube length, while integrated models will only add 8-20mm, with 15mm being the most common. If you're shopping at local stores, take a small tape measure with you and measure the head tube length, with the headset, plus all the spacers, to get an accurate comparison. If your inseam of 92cm is accurate, you should have a saddle height in the 82cm area and need a head tube length, with the headset and spacers, in the 230-260mm range, depending on how much saddle to handlebar drop you can tolerate.

The other key frame dimensions are the top tube length and the seat tube angle. In the largest sizes, nearly all frames will have either a 72.5 or 73 degree STA. The steeper 73 degree angle only adds about 5mm to the reach of the frame and would rarely cause a fitting problem.

Hers's some basic info on bike fitting: www.coloradocyclist.com/bikefit


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

C40...you give some great advice for us taller folk! I like the original poster am tall (sometimes I think too tall for road bike riding as my 61cm Lemond is not very comfortable). What would your thoughts be regarding a 64cm Performance Fit Madone and a 64cm Roubaix Elite...not comparison of bikes, rather sizing for a 6'5" guy? Madone has a 25cm headtube and Roubaix has a 26cm head tube according to the charts. Any other stock bikes that might be considered for someone my height?

Is 6'5" just too tall for an 'off the shelf bike'? I don't want to spend the money for custom, especially in case the custom bike wasn't comfortable and would have a problem selling....

I just had my wife take all the measurement for Wrench Science and this is what it came up with:

WS Recommended Sizes 
Frame Size center-to-center: 63 cm 
Frame Size center-to-top: 65 cm 
Overall Reach: 70.68 cm 
Saddle Height: 85.23 cm 
Handlebar Width: 44 cm 

Your Measurements 
Height: 76.00 in 
Sternum Notch: 63.00 in 
Inseam Length: 38.00 in 
Arm Length: 27.50 in 
Shoulder Width: 17.00 in 
Flexiblity: 7 
Weight: 202.00 lbs 
Foot Size: 13.00 USMens 

A couple questions..I guess this is a good start point? How do you measure bar width, from center of grip to center or from inside edge to inside edge? Lastly, when you look at bikes on-line that state they are 64cm, what measurement is this actually because neither the Trek or Specialized have 64cm seat tubes, they have 61.3cm and 60cm respectively? I believe both are BB Center to top.


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## mark4501 (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm 6'4", with 35-36" inseam, 195 lbs. I ride a 62 cm Pinarello Galileo and my old bike is a 62 cm Trek 2100. both bikes fit me well, however some may feel the drop from the seat to the handlebars is too large. I suppose a stem with upward angle could address the issue. anyway, the configuration I have is all I've ever known so I like it and it suits me.

when shopping for a bike this summer, I was disappointed to find that bike shops rarely had even a single bike in stock in a 62cm. I live in the Chicago area and am lucky to have lots of shops to choose from and even the very largest shops had virtually nothing in a 62 cm on hand. quite frustrating as I would have liked to test ride various models and compare the rides. :mad2: 

I've been fit on one of those bike fit machines ( all dimensions are fully adjustable ) on more than one occasion and have always been told a 61cm or 62 cm frame is perfect for me. I highly recommend you find a shop where you can do this.

since most bike manufacturers max out a 61 or 62 cm frame size, I do wonder if my recommendation would have been different if they could have offered me a 64 cm frame??? custom frames have never been on my radar due to the price tag.

regardless, I'm quite pleased with my 2007 Pinarello - the ride is awesome, and my 1992 Trek served me well for 15 years.

Good luck to you in your quest.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Yep..that is the problem. Rarely do shops carry a 61 or 62cm frame...can't wait until I start asking them to test ride some more expensive 64cm frames. I doubt I will be able to test ride either one, which means I won't be buying either one. I already had a semi-custom mountain bike frame made for me and it didn't come out well.....still too small.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*

If your body measurements are taken accurately, the results from online fit calculators may have some value, but I don't think much of them myself. Bar width can be measured c-c or outside to outside, depending on the brand. Bars measured c-c will be wider than those measured o-o, for a given size. If the fit calculator doesn't specify the measuring method, then it's lacking in info. For a large rider, I'd assume a c-c measurement to get the wider bar. 

As I noted, the frame size numbers have really become worthless these days. I look strictly at the head tube length, with the headset, as the indicator of a frame's vertical size. There are brands whose frame sizes still refer to c-c or c-t measures, even if the frame has a sloping TT, but other brands use numbers that don't appear to have any meaning, so the letter sizes of L, XL and XXL are just as good, since they also mean nothing.

What can make a big difference in a rider's head tube length requirement is how much saddle to handlebar drop he can tolerate. Big guys should be able to handle more drop than small riders. If you've got a very tall saddle height, but can only handle a 5cm drop to the bars, instead of 10mm, it might be hard to find enough head tube length. The alternative is a higher rise stem, that can add 2-4cm of height, but the length of the stem decreases by about 10mm when flipped. Flipped stems are not a hot fashion statement, but neither is an outrageously long head tube. Head tubes in the 25-26cm range should be tall enough for your inseam.


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

*?????*



MCF said:


> I don't want to spend the money for custom, especially in case the custom bike wasn't comfortable and would have a problem selling....


Huh? You go custom so you can speak directly to the builder who will make sure the bike is comfortable. That is what custom frames are for, so you can get exactly what you want. 

And for the cost of a Madone or Scott, you can easily get a very high quality custom frame built up and running.


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

Based on that picture, that Pinarello is too small for you. You may be able to ride it comfortably but it's too small. Do you know how I know? Because I'm 6'5" and my 63cm Trek looks exactly the same and it's definitely too small . A huge amount of post showing and a slightly upturned stem. 

Whoever did your fitting is an idiot. With your measurments and that picture, there is no way you should be on a 61cm frame. If they had a 63 or 64 in the shop, I bet you're recommendation would miraculously be a 63 or 64. And you could get a custom steel Curtlo for around $1000. 



mark4501 said:


> I'm 6'4", with 35-36" inseam, 195 lbs. I ride a 62 cm Pinarello Galileo and my old bike is a 62 cm Trek 2100. both bikes fit me well, however some may feel the drop from the seat to the handlebars is too large. I suppose a stem with upward angle could address the issue. anyway, the configuration I have is all I've ever known so I like it and it suits me.
> 
> when shopping for a bike this summer, I was disappointed to find that bike shops rarely had even a single bike in stock in a 62cm. I live in the Chicago area and am lucky to have lots of shops to choose from and even the very largest shops had virtually nothing in a 62 cm on hand. quite frustrating as I would have liked to test ride various models and compare the rides. :mad2:
> 
> ...


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*a bit extreme...*

The 62cm pictured is the largest size made in the that model. The head tube is 225mm and the TT is 59.5cm.

I don't see any big problem. Riders with really long legs will have a lot of post showing, particularly if they have a short torso, relative to their leg length. Unless the owner has discomfort from the large saddle to bar drop, or he's scrunched up due to a lack of reach, there is no problem. The stem angle only looks to be about 90 degrees - that's no crime. That could be reduced by rotating the bars up a bit or using another model with less ramp down angle from the top to the brake hood. Without a picture of the owner on the bike, you've got no idea whether he should be on a frame with more head tube length or TT length.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*C-40...I like your advice...*



C-40 said:


> The 62cm pictured is the largest size made in the that model. The head tube is 225mm and the TT is 59.5cm.
> 
> I don't see any big problem. Riders with really long legs will have a lot of post showing, particularly if they have a short torso, relative to their leg length. Unless the owner has discomfort from the large saddle to bar drop, or he's scrunched up due to a lack of reach, there is no problem. The stem angle only looks to be about 90 degrees - that's no crime. That could be reduced by rotating the bars up a bit or using another model with less ramp down angle from the top to the brake hood. Without a picture of the owner on the bike, you've got no idea whether he should be on a frame with more head tube length or TT length.


Couple things I learned from my recommendations from Wrench Science are:
1. My saddle was about 1/2" low so I raised it just below wrench science recommendation.
2. My bars are apparently 2cm too wide (can't do anything about that right now, but have a set of FSA Wing Pro 44cm in a shopping cart waiting for tomorrow).
3. My reach (effective top tube + stem length) is about 1/2" short. Right now running 120 x 17 but could switch to 130 x 17 (if I can just find that darn stem I know I have somewhere).
Tonight, I am going riding with the higher seat position and then stopping at my LBS (two blocks from home) and they are going to take a look at my position for free and do some simple measurements and depending on what they find I MAY pay $55 for a full analysis.

QUESTION...can too low of seat, too wide of bars, and too short of reach result in base of neck between shoulder discomfort or could that come from many variants?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*



MCF said:


> QUESTION...can too low of seat, too wide of bars, and too short of reach result in base of neck between shoulder discomfort or could that come from many variants?


The pain you describe could come from a lot of things. It's hard to pinpoint only one. Some would suggest too much saddle to handlebar drop, but that would usually only occur when riding in the drop for a long time. I've pushed that limit, where craning my neck to see down the road on long mountain descents caused some discomfort.

If you've got to use a +17 degree stem, it certainly suggests that the head tube is too short. A +17 stem is two sizes shorter than the advertised length, so even a 140 isn;t all that long, horizontally.

My rough guideline for proper saddle height is to position the foot horizontal, with the leg locked out at the bottom of the stroke. During normal pedaling, it only takes a 2-3cm rise in the heel to create the preferred 30 degree angle between the upper and lower leg.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

C-40 said:


> The pain you describe could come from a lot of things. It's hard to pinpoint only one. Some would suggest too much saddle to handlebar drop, but that would usually only occur when riding in the drop for a long time. I've pushed that limit, where craning my neck to see down the road on long mountain descents caused some discomfort.
> 
> If you've got to use a +17 degree stem, it certainly suggests that the head tube is too short. A +17 stem is two sizes shorter than the advertised length, so even a 140 isn;t all that long, horizontally.
> 
> My rough guideline for proper saddle height is to position the foot horizontal, with the leg locked out at the bottom of the stroke. During normal pedaling, it only takes a 2-3cm rise in the heel to create the preferred 30 degree angle between the upper and lower leg.


Thanks...I am going to try a 120 x 10 stem tonight to get me a little more stretched out...oh, and to prove that just about any (not all) shop will sell you what they have..Wrench Science just emailed recommending the Look 585, which has a shorter seat tube, shorter head tube, and shorter top tube than my current bike. The reason they would recommend the Look...probably because it is the only one they have that has an 'XXL' size, which as C-40 has stated, means nothing now a days.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*the geometry...*

Here's the geometry. http://www.lookcycle.com/products/data/geometrie/geometrie585.pdf

The maximum head tube length, with the headset and 3cm of spacers would be about 245mm. If that's not enough, the 585 optimum has a 16mm taller head tube, but the reach is about 2cm shorter and the steering is really relaxed.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Thanks!!!*



C-40 said:


> Here's the geometry. http://www.lookcycle.com/products/data/geometrie/geometrie585.pdf
> 
> The maximum head tube length, with the headset and 3cm of spacers would be about 245mm. If that's not enough, the 585 optimum has a 16mm taller head tube, but the reach is about 2cm shorter and the steering is really relaxed.


Thanks...I just got back from my fitting. The guy was very thorough and spent about an hour and a half with me.....took all measurements, etc. etc. Long story short, we raised my saddle another 1/4" in addition to 1/4" I raised it last night. The extra half inch is resulting in a 30 degree bend at the knee at crank in line with seat tube. Moved the saddle back a little. He also agrees my bars are too wide....this is the first time I sat on my bike and looked in a mirror...with the 46cm wide bar, my arms are 'V'd. We put on a set of 42cm and my arms were about as wide as my shoulders. Wrench Science says 44cm is the right size, but if I want my hands no wider than my shoulders, I need 42cm (which surprised us both that someone that is 6'4" and 205lbs would be that narrow). 

Any concerns with moving from 46cm to 42cm wide bars??

Also, now my saddle to bar drop is about 6cm....wonder how that is going to work out after some miles....

Regarding the Look Bikes, they are nice and all, but I don't really gain anything in size by going from my Lemond to a Look. The fitter did say that a 64cm Trek of Specialized would help as I am really sitting 'on' my bike rather than 'in the cockpit'. I will ride it like it is and see if it helps any and even though I want a Madone 5.5, the Specialized Roubaix Expert actually has a slightly longer TT and headtube when compared to the Trek, so that will probalby be my next bike, but I am going to do my best to try to ride both a 64cm Specialized and a 64cm Trek before doing anything. Any additional thoughts?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*saddle height...*

The 30 degree bend in the leg should occur during normal pedaling. If the height setting produces a 30 degree angle with the foot horizontal and the crank parallel to the seat tube, then it's only proper is you pedal with the heel horizontal. Most fitters want to see some rise in the heel while pedaling, so the saddle height is set to have the leg full extended with the foot horizontal, at the bottom of the stoke. During normal pedaling, it only takes a 2-3cm rise in the heel to create the 130 degree angle. If you can drop your heel far below horizontal at the bottom of the stroke, when the leg is locked, then the saddle might be too low.

As for the saddle to bar drop of 6cm, that's not much at all, for a large rider.

You'll just have to try the 42cm bars. As long as they are 42cm c-c, you probably won't have a problem.

http://www.velonews.tv/?Art_ID=1932


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## velomonkey (Jul 8, 2003)

For what it's worth I am a little over 6'3" and I have a 33" or so inseem and I ride a 63cm Cannondale. I had a Trek and that bike, while labeled a 63cm, really wasn't since everything was measured center to top - not center to center. The result, a bike that was too small and I was showing a lot of post. On the C'dale I show a completely acceptable amount of post, I ride a 120cm flat rise stem (as opposed to a turned up 140mm) and the bike fits great. You should be able to find a C'dale in 63cm - perhpas not in the model you want - but the geometry across all frames sans the Synapse is the same.


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

Once again I'll reiterate that with your proportions, you need to look into a custom frame. For the price of a Madone 5.5 or the Specialized Roubaix Expert, you can easily get a perfectly fitted custom frame from a number of builders. Certainly better fitting that taking a stock frame that is likely too short for your long legs and sticking an extra long post in there. I'm not trying to be contrarian here. But just want to point out that there are more options that taking a stock frame and "making it work".

For bar width, if you have narrow shoulders, then a 42 should be fine. But in reality a 44 won't be too far off. It's better to be a little but wide than a little narrow. The extra width will open up your chest some and help get the air in there better. 

Your saddle-bar drop is dependant upon how flexible you are. If your back and hips can take it, then that drop should not be a problem. But remember that any change in position (raised & moved back saddle) will take some time to get used to. So until you acclimatize to the position, there will likely be some discomfort. 




MCF said:


> Thanks...I just got back from my fitting. The guy was very thorough and spent about an hour and a half with me.....took all measurements, etc. etc. Long story short, we raised my saddle another 1/4" in addition to 1/4" I raised it last night. The extra half inch is resulting in a 30 degree bend at the knee at crank in line with seat tube. Moved the saddle back a little. He also agrees my bars are too wide....this is the first time I sat on my bike and looked in a mirror...with the 46cm wide bar, my arms are 'V'd. We put on a set of 42cm and my arms were about as wide as my shoulders. Wrench Science says 44cm is the right size, but if I want my hands no wider than my shoulders, I need 42cm (which surprised us both that someone that is 6'4" and 205lbs would be that narrow).
> 
> Any concerns with moving from 46cm to 42cm wide bars??
> 
> ...


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*about custom...*

If all this rider needs to produce a 6cm drop from the bars to the saddle is a +10 degree stem, I don't see this as any indicator of the need to look into a custom - yet. If a 9cm drop could be tolerated, he'd be using a normal -6 degree stem. From what I've read, this rider doesn't have enough experience to commit to a particular fit. He needs to spend more time in the saddle after his current fitting, before paying a lot of money for a custom frame that might prove to need changes after it's first year of use. Customs are best suited to those who have a perfect position that's been rode tested for at least one season and understand exactly what frame dimensions are required to produce it. I've read plenty of complaints from riders who were suckered into paying for an extensive fit session and bought a custom frame based on that fitting, without ever riding that position. The result is often a custom frame with a high rise stem and lot of spacers, or the opposite, where the rider wants to cut off the 2cm head tube extension after a year of use on the frame.

As an example, even though I'm much smaller and getting up in age, I can still tolerate a 9-10cm drop from the saddle to the bars and I don't have oddly long arms. I've been riding a slightly smaller frame for the last five seasons than I had ever rode in the previous 20. I use an 84 (-6) degree stem with only 5cm of spacers to produce that 9-10cm drop. If I had a lower level of fitness and could only tolerate a 6cm drop, then switching to a higher rise stem and a little more spacer would not mean that the frame was not a good fit, it just wouldn't have the most aesthetically pleasing look to the stem setup. The only difference with a custom frame might be a 3cm taller head tube, so I could return to the pleasant looking stem angle and spacer setup. On the road, the custom wouldn't ride or handle any better.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*C-40..thanks.*



C-40 said:


> The 30 degree bend in the leg should occur during normal pedaling. If the height setting produces a 30 degree angle with the foot horizontal and the crank parallel to the seat tube, then it's only proper is you pedal with the heel horizontal. Most fitters want to see some rise in the heel while pedaling, so the saddle height is set to have the leg full extended with the foot horizontal, at the bottom of the stoke. During normal pedaling, it only takes a 2-3cm rise in the heel to create the 130 degree angle. If you can drop your heel far below horizontal at the bottom of the stroke, when the leg is locked, then the saddle might be too low.
> 
> As for the saddle to bar drop of 6cm, that's not much at all, for a large rider.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the way we set saddle height and leg angle was by putting the crank in line with seat tube, then he adjust my heel to what he noted while watching me pedal to get the angle....I will check tonight, but I doubt I can drop my heel much (if any) with full extension at bottom of stroke when leg is locked. If anything, the saddle is much better than a week ago where it was an 1" lower. The saddle to bar drop probably won't bother me, if anything it stretches me out a little more and I think my big problem was being 'crunched up' and the too wide of bars which was really resulting in my shoulders blades being pinched.

I think too much and now I have really got myself into a mess...64cm Roubaix vs. Moots Custom and transfer over all my 105/Ultegra stuff and upgrade slowly over time....


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

I'm suggesting a custom frame because he says *"my next bike will probably be a Madone 5.5 or Specialized Roubaix Expert"*. Sounds like he's got something picked out based on the results of his current fitting. I agree with you that he needs to get used to - refine his position before he decides. There are obviously plenty of ways to achieve the "proper" fit. 

For me, I want a bike that is comfortable to ride, handles well AND is aesthetically pleasing. Extra long posts and high rise stems don't cut it anymore for me. As I said prior, my current bike fits this description exactly, but it is comfortable to ride and handles great and I've never had a problem with it. But the more I learn about fit, look at more bikes and refine my preferences, I want the aesthetic side to be "correct" too. But aesthetics are a personal preference, so obviosly YMMV. 

And FWIW, you can get a nice steel Curtlo f-f for $1000 or so. Hardly breaking the bank. For $500-1000 more, you can get into Strong, DeSalvo, Kish territory. Which are top of class and easily the equivalent to anything Trek or Specialized turns out at the same price point. 



C-40 said:


> If all this rider needs to produce a 6cm drop from the bars to the saddle is a +10 degree stem, I don't see this as any indicator of the need to look into a custom - yet. If a 9cm drop could be tolerated, he'd be using a normal -6 degree stem. From what I've read, this rider doesn't have enough experience to commit to a particular fit. He needs to spend more time in the saddle after his current fitting, before paying a lot of money for a custom frame that might prove to need changes after it's first year of use. Customs are best suited to those who have a perfect position that's been rode teested for at least one season and understand exactly what frame dimensions are required to produce it. I've read plenty of complaints from riders who were suckered into paying for an extensive fit session and bought a custom frame based on that fitting, without ever riding that position. The result is often a custom frame with a high rise stem and lot of spacers, or the opposite, where the rider wants to cut off the 2cm head tube extension after a year of use on the frame.
> 
> As an example, even though I'm much smaller and getting up in age, I can still tolerate a 9-10cm drop from the saddle to the bars and I don't have oddly long arms. I've been riding a slightly smaller frame for the last five seasons than I had ever rode in the previous 20. I use an 84 (-6) degree stem with only 5cm of spacers to produce that 9-10cm drop. If I had a lower level of fitness and could only tolerate a 6cm drop, then switching to a higher rise stem and a little more spacer would not mean that the frame was not a good fit, it just wouldn't have the most aesthetically pleasing look to the stem setup. The only difference with a custom frame might be a 3cm taller head tube, so I could return to the pleasant looking stem angle and spacer setup. On the road, the custom wouldn't ride or handle any better.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Innegel....*



innergel said:


> I'm suggesting a custom frame because he says *"my next bike will probably be a Madone 5.5 or Specialized Roubaix Expert"*. Sounds like he's got something picked out based on the results of his current fitting. I agree with you that he needs to get used to - refine his position before he decides. There are obviously plenty of ways to achieve the "proper" fit.
> 
> For me, I want a bike that is comfortable to ride, handles well AND is aesthetically pleasing. Extra long posts and high rise stems don't cut it anymore for me. As I said prior, my current bike fits this description exactly, but it is comfortable to ride and handles great and I've never had a problem with it. But the more I learn about fit, look at more bikes and refine my preferences, I want the aesthetic side to be "correct" too. But aesthetics are a personal preference, so obviosly YMMV.
> 
> And FWIW, you can get a nice steel Curtlo f-f for $1000 or so. Hardly breaking the bank. For $500-1000 more, you can get into Strong, DeSalvo, Kish territory. Which are top of class and easily the equivalent to anything Trek or Specialized turns out at the same price point.


I hear what you are saying and I am not opposed to custom (or the cost as you can see I have metioned Moots), but if I can get one of the NEW 64 CM Specialized bikes with full Ultegra and DT Swiss wheels and it fits and looks OK (I am not overly concerned with aesthetics even though it would look better than my current steed since the 64cm frame has a 5cm taller head tube and ~5cm longer seat tube) then why pay for a custom frame and then want to upgrade all my 105 components and Race wheels to at least the next level? If I go custom, I will want to upgrade my 105/Ultegra and Race wheels which will take my price right back up to $3K - $4k......


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*A thought on large frames.*

With traditional diamond frames, you reach a point of diminishing returns when you scale them up. Once past that point, the frame could become unwieldy and handle sketchily. So even if all the static fit numbers are right, the finished bike might not return as much riding pleasure as you had hoped.

Colnago adresses this issue by offering so-called Freuler frames with extended seat- and head tubes. In simple terms, the Freuler frame triangles stay the same size, even though the frame's nominal size increases. For example, the seat tube of Colnago C-50 64 cm Freuler is 64 cm long center-to-top, but only 58.2 cm center-to-center.

Not selling Freuler frames here—just noting that some frame builders believe that there is a practical limit to head tube and seat tube lengths and look for alternative solutions to fit an unusually tall rider.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Good point....*



wim said:


> With traditional diamond frames, you reach a point of diminishing returns when you scale them up. Once past that point, the frame could become unwieldy and handle sketchily. So even if all the static fit numbers are right, the finished bike might not return as much riding pleasure as you had hoped.
> 
> Colnago adresses this issue by offering so-called Freuler frames with extended seat- and head tubes. In simple terms, the Freuler frame triangles stay the same size, even though the frame's nominal size increases. For example, the seat tube of Colnago C-50 64 cm Freuler is 64 cm long center-to-top, but only 58.2 cm center-to-center.
> 
> Not selling Freuler frames here—just noting that some frame builders believe that there is a practical limit to head tube and seat tube lengths and look for alternative solutions to fit an unusually tall rider.


You make a very good point, which is one reason why I would like to stick with a 'stock frame'....I don't want some monster frame just because my measurements say that is what I need, I want a frame that fits and rides equally well. Just because a frames dimensions are a perfect fit, the bike could ride like crud....


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

MCF said:


> Just because a frames dimensions are a perfect fit, the bike could ride like crud....


Huh x 2 :confused5: 

Which bike is MORE LIKELY to fit and ride better? 

1. A custom frame that was built by someone who you spoke to personally and built the frame to your weight, riding style and personal body measurements

or 

2. A stock frame that was built to fit the most people of a similar size and ride the way someone else thinks the frame should ride

I give up. You obviously have your mind set on the Specialized.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*the logic..*

If a person has a long torso, a fitter might recommend a frame with a 2cm longer TT and front-center with a 110mm stem, rather than a 130mm stem. People have found out the hard way that frames like that may fit perfectly but have too little weight on the front end and don't corner as well as expected. Unfortunately, it's the customer who's stuck with the perfectly fitting, but mediocre handling bike. A stock frame with a 130mm stem may have worked better. The bottom line is, a perfectly fitting bike won't always handle just the way the customer expects.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*I have not made my mind up on anything....*



innergel said:


> Huh x 2 :confused5:
> 
> Which bike is MORE LIKELY to fit and ride better?
> 
> ...


As if you ACTUALLY read, you can see I am also considering Ind. Fabrication and Moots, but you have made it clear that you obviously have a custom built frame so that MUST BE THE ONLY WAY TO GO...love it when people force their opinion on others by saying their opinion is the correct answer....everyone has an opinion, just like an a$$hole. I have a custom made mountain bike frame and it fits like SH*T...I personally talked to the owner of a VERY HIGH END bike company many times and we discussed all sorts of things. Can you explain that one!?


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*C-40...*



C-40 said:


> If a person has a long torso, a fitter might recommend a frame with a 2cm longer TT and front-center with a 110mm stem, rather than a 130mm stem. People have found out the hard way that frames like that may fit perfectly but have too little weight on the front end and don't corner as well as expected. Unfortunately, it's the customer who's stuck with the perfectly fitting, but mediocre handling bike. A stock frame with a 130mm stem may have worked better. The bottom line is, a perfectly fitting bike won't always handle just the way the customer expects.


Thank you, again.


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

MCF said:


> As if you ACTUALLY read, you can see I am also considering Ind. Fabrication and Moots, but you have made it clear that you obviously have a custom built frame so that MUST BE THE ONLY WAY TO GO...love it when people force their opinion on others by saying their opinion is the correct answer....everyone has an opinion, just like an a$$hole. I have a custom made mountain bike frame and it fits like SH*T...I personally talked to the owner of a VERY HIGH END bike company many times and we discussed all sorts of things. Can you explain that one!?


You are right. I'm the a$$hole. Quite obviously I know nothing about bicycle fit and I'm a shill for custom builders. I'm going to talk to all the custom builders at the NAHBS this weekend and tell him that their expertise in bike fitting is useless. Just build a bunch of stock models and go with that. 

Enjoy your Roubaix. I'm sure it will be fantastic. Have a nice day. I'm out.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*I never called you an a$$hole, but....*



innergel said:


> You are right. I'm the a$$hole. Quite obviously I know nothing about bicycle fit and I'm a shill for custom builders. I'm going to talk to all the custom builders at the NAHBS this weekend and tell him that their expertise in bike fitting is useless. Just build a bunch of stock models and go with that.
> 
> Enjoy your Roubaix. I'm sure it will be fantastic. Have a nice day. I'm out.


If you can point me to a custom frame builder where I can get custom Ti or carbon fiber frame for less than $2500, please let me know. I don't like steel frames. Purely personal preference.


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

MCF said:


> If you can point me to a custom frame builder where I can get custom Ti or carbon fiber frame for less than $2500, please let me know. I don't like steel frames. Purely personal preference.


Start with these threads for ti builders. You can probably add Setavento and Spicer to the lists if they aren't on there already. I know they do relatively "inexpensive" custom ti as well, maybe $1500-ish.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=113780&highlight=ti+builder
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=73710&highlight=ti+builder

You'll be hard pressed to find custom carbon for $2500, AFAIK.

Good luck. Let us know what you end up with.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

It's very clear from readint this thread that the OP has pretty much made up his mind to go stock Specialized......I hope it works for him.

Worst case he learns something so when he buys his next bike, he might get something more on point.

If it's me, I'm gonna find a used bike in a size close to the competitive cycle fit recommendation, save some money, ride the hell out of it for a year or 2 & then when I have some idea of my fit, get something that really fits whatever his body & riding preferences are at that point.

He;ll end up with a better fit on a better bike.

Of course it will require not having a brand new bike now.

Len


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## Metz (Aug 31, 2005)

*Try Ridley*

Our team just got a bunch of '08 Ridleys. I am 6-4 and ended up on a Large Helium, mainly because I wanted a bike a little smaller, lighter and quicker handling than my custom Seven. I love the Seven and didn't really need another bike, but that's another story. Anyway, the Ridleys have long HT's and TT's. I was suprised that the integrated seat mast was long enough in a Large since I have really long legs.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Ah, what about Seven....they seem to have some really 'nice' sized bikes:

The Luma looks promising and they definetely have plenty of sizes to choose from..all the way up to.....
Size Top Tube 
64 61.4
65 62.2
66 63.1
67 63.9

Spending $3K on a frame might hurt, but I could transfer all my stuff from my current ride and upgrade slowly over time...


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## Metz (Aug 31, 2005)

I have a custom Axiom that I rode/raced last year and I'll still ride it a lot....definitely a keeper. Seven can undoubtedly sell you a bike that will fit as can any number of custom builders. I've read it here many times, though - if you go custom you'd better have a good idea of what you want or at least what you don't want in a frame.

The Ridley is fantastic, just about as comfortable as the Seven and much stiffer in the rear triangle and BB. It will be a great race bike and weighs in just over 15 pounds with only kinda light wheels, which is really light for a big man's bike. 

My saddle height is 84cm from the center of the BB and 79cm to the rails, so you're not far off from my measurements. An XL Ridley would most likely fit you OK.


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## levislevis (Feb 5, 2008)

Here are no custom builders.
So XL (58 cm) either Tarmac or CR1 is definitely too small for me?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*



levislevis said:


> Here are no custom builders.
> So XL (58 cm) either Tarmac or CR1 is definitely too small for me?


That Tarmac comes in a 61cm size with a 230mm head tube whihc could provide up to a 275mm length, with the headset and spacers. The CR1's largest size is 20mm shorter in the head tube.

I suggest you post an actual sadle height and start a new thread. Your large sized fllow riders have hijacked this one.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Thanks...but...*



Metz said:


> I have a custom Axiom that I rode/raced last year and I'll still ride it a lot....definitely a keeper. Seven can undoubtedly sell you a bike that will fit as can any number of custom builders. I've read it here many times, though - if you go custom you'd better have a good idea of what you want or at least what you don't want in a frame.
> 
> The Ridley is fantastic, just about as comfortable as the Seven and much stiffer in the rear triangle and BB. It will be a great race bike and weighs in just over 15 pounds with only kinda light wheels, which is really light for a big man's bike.
> 
> My saddle height is 84cm from the center of the BB and 79cm to the rails, so you're not far off from my measurements. An XL Ridley would most likely fit you OK.


My saddle height is 86cm..that is another inch. The Ridley's are smaller than my current bike. A Ridley is simply too small...anything with less than at LEAST a 61cm top tube is going to be too small and a head tube of at least 24cm would be required for me to get a good fit. Question about Seven..when you look at all their sizes, are those stock sizes or is there customization that goes along with it?


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## Metz (Aug 31, 2005)

OK, the TT would be an issue on the Ridley, but not the seat tube (remember I am on a L, so an XL could easily accomodate you on ST). With Seven you can go completely custom or with their stock sizes. You can call and interview a bunch of custom builders and figure out which one you like best or choose from the largest stock sizes from Seven, Moots, Indy Fab, etc. If you want carbon try Parlee (I'm not sure that any of Seven's advertised carbon frames are actually in production).


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## levislevis (Feb 5, 2008)

C-40 said:


> That Tarmac comes in a 61cm size with a 230mm head tube whihc could provide up to a 275mm length, with the headset and spacers. The CR1's largest size is 20mm shorter in the head tube.
> 
> I suggest you post an actual sadle height and start a new thread. Your large sized fllow riders have hijacked this one.



I forgot to mention: my sadle height is 82, 5 cm. Can this help?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*



levislevis said:


> I forgot to mention: saddle height is 82, 5 cm. Can this help?


Yes, that helps a lot. That tells me that you don't have extremely long legs for your height. The only thing that's a major unknown is how much saddle to handlebar drop you can tolerate. Riders who can only tolerate a 5-6cm drop from the saddle to the bars will have a more difficult time finding enough head tube length.

The largest Tarmac should have plenty of head tube length (230mm), but the Scott at only 210mm is more questionable. All depends on whether you can tolerate an 8-10cm drop to the handlebars. I'd recommend a professional fitting and some test rides. The problem with test rides, is the stem height is rarely adjusted to what you want, but a good shop should offer to get it close. Prebuilt bikes come with the maximum amount of spacer and the stem is often flipped upward to place the bars as high as they can go.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

I am finding the problem with head tube measurements is that some frames have integrated headsets and some don't. Some manufacturers include bottom and top bearing cups in their measurement and some don't. The only way it get an apples to apples comparison is to actually go find the bike you are considering and measure from the bottom of the head tube (including external bearing cup if there is one) to the top of the head tube (including any external bearing cup if there is one). that way you have a true head tube measurement. Please correct me if I am wrong...thanks!


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*



MCF said:


> I am finding the problem with head tube measurements is that some frames have integrated headsets and some don't. Some manufacturers include bottom and top bearing cups in their measurement and some don't. The only way it get an apples to apples comparison is to actually go find the bike you are considering and measure from the bottom of the head tube (including external bearing cup if there is one) to the top of the head tube (including any external bearing cup if there is one). that way you have a true head tube measurement. Please correct me if I am wrong...thanks!


While it's true that integrated headsets vary in height from 8mm to 20mm and conventional headsets are 25-30mm, I've never see any brand include a headset length with their published head tube length. Every head tube value I've seen is a bare head tube. Then all you have to do is add the appropriate headset stack height. Most brands don't list the exact headset stack height, even if an integrated headset is included with the frame and fork, but the seller should be able to get that info.

Of course nothing beats measuring the real thing.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Correct...*



C-40 said:


> While it's true that integrated headsets vary in height from 8mm to 20mm and conventional headsets are 25-30mm, I've never see any brand include a headset length with their published head tube length. Every head tube value I've seen is a bare head tube. Then all you have to do is add the appropriate headset stack height. Most brands don't list the exact headset stack height, even if an integrated headset is included with the frame and fork, but the seller should be able to get that info.
> 
> Of course nothing beats measuring the real thing.


I measured my Lemond headtube last night including the top and bottom cups of the headset and it came out to 24.5cm. According to the geometry numbers on the Lemond website, the headtube is 21cm; therefore, the headset is 3.5cm (35mm). According to Specialized website, their headtube for a 64cm frame (yet to find one to test ride of course) is 26cm. Upon initial review of the numbers, it appears the Specialized headtube is 5cm longer than the Lemond, but that is not true because the specialized has in integrated headset; therefore, the head tube on the Specialized is really only ~ 2cm longer than the headtube on the Lemond. Again, correct me if I am wrong???

Still investigating options on the next frame/bike, but by actually replacing my 120x10 stem with a 130x8 stem and slightly moving the saddle back resulting in a more 'stretched out' position is helping my comfort on the bike. I still have at least 1/4" of rail left on the saddle to move it back, but don't want to move it much further back because of knee position, but after riding 66 miles this past weekend, it does seem like the discomfort at the base of neck and between shoulders is being reduced and have still had no issues with anything below the neck. If anything, more stretched out position and new saddle position have made me more efficient and powerful. This tells me that saddle to bar drop does not bother me as much as being 'scrunched up'.....


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*no...*

The Specialized HT is 260mm, plus up to 20mm for the headset top section, for a total of 280mm. If the total length of your Lemond in only 245, with the headset, that makes the difference 35mm.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Headset top section?*



C-40 said:


> The Specialized HT is 260mm, plus up to 20mm for the headset top section, for a total of 280mm. If the total length of your Lemond in only 245, with the headset, that makes the difference 35mm.


When you say headset top section, are you referring to the 'upside down volcano' shaped 'spacer' that sits directly on top of the carbon fiber headtube?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*yes..*



MCF said:


> When you say headset top section, are you referring to the 'upside down volcano' shaped 'spacer' that sits directly on top of the carbon fiber headtube?


The conical top section is mostly just a spacer, but most brands allow and include 3cm of addtional spacer that can be placed on top.


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## levislevis (Feb 5, 2008)

*geting close ...*



C-40 said:



> Yes, that helps a lot. That tells me that you don't have extremely long legs for your height. The only thing that's a major unknown is how much saddle to handlebar drop you can tolerate. Riders who can only tolerate a 5-6cm drop from the saddle to the bars will have a more difficult time finding enough head tube length.
> 
> The largest Tarmac should have plenty of head tube length (230mm), but the Scott at only 210mm is more questionable. All depends on whether you can tolerate an 8-10cm drop to the handlebars. I'd recommend a professional fitting and some test rides. The problem with test rides, is the stem height is rarely adjusted to what you want, but a good shop should offer to get it close. Prebuilt bikes come with the maximum amount of spacer and the stem is often flipped upward to place the bars as high as they can go.


On mountain bike (Scott scale XL ) I have 10 cm saddle to handlebar, and fits me very good. On local store now I can buy both (Tarmac and CR1) but only in XL (58 cm). Size is the same as my mountain bike, but it is another world (road bike). Can I use 58 cm, or it is better to order 61 cm? 
Thanks for your suggestions.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

velomonkey said:


> For what it's worth I am a little over 6'3" and I have a 33" or so inseem and I ride a 63cm Cannondale. I had a Trek and that bike, while labeled a 63cm, really wasn't since everything was measured center to top - not center to center. The result, a bike that was too small and I was showing a lot of post. On the C'dale I show a completely acceptable amount of post, I ride a 120cm flat rise stem (as opposed to a turned up 140mm) and the bike fits great. You should be able to find a C'dale in 63cm - perhpas not in the model you want - but the geometry across all frames sans the Synapse is the same.


Really??
I am 6'3" tall as well with a 34.5cm inseam and better than average flexibility (Ican stretch 10cm past my toes in a reach test) ride a 58cm TT (I am assuming you are talking TT for your 63cm bike) and a 110mm stem.
I cannot imagine being stretched out another 6cm on my bike.
Professional fitting done and 58cm recommended.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*Xxl*



levislevis said:


> On mountain bike (Scott scale XL ) I have 10 cm saddle to handlebar, and fits me very good. On local store now I can buy both (Tarmac and CR1) but only in XL (58 cm). Size is the same as my mountain bike, but it is another world (road bike). Can I use 58 cm, or it is better to order 61 cm?
> Thanks for your suggestions.


Anything other than the largest sizes would be too small, with little doubt. Since you don't have exremely long egs, you've got a lot of torso length, so you'll need the larger size. You need to go to a shop that has a larger frame and can give you a fitting on it.


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## rmsmith (Feb 15, 2007)

Don't miss this bike on eBay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330212083693

Here's another tall guy bike frame that just appeared on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110225517276


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## gormleyflyer2002 (Sep 12, 2005)

MCF said:


> Couple things I learned from my recommendations from Wrench Science are:
> 1. My saddle was about 1/2" low so I raised it just below wrench science recommendation.
> 2. My bars are apparently 2cm too wide (can't do anything about that right now, but have a set of FSA Wing Pro 44cm in a shopping cart waiting for tomorrow).
> 3. My reach (effective top tube + stem length) is about 1/2" short. Right now running 120 x 17 but could switch to 130 x 17 (if I can just find that darn stem I know I have somewhere).
> ...


i get that pain when riding with bars that are toi wide.......doesn't take much. Always thought I needed the widest being freakishly large.....then i measured.....oops. No more pain. Its worth a shot at least.


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## gormleyflyer2002 (Sep 12, 2005)

ok....2 cents from a 6'6" guy who has been down this road......although the original poster is long gone. LOL 

MCF...Unless you truly know exactly what dimensions you want or need then i would stay away from a custom frame. (for now) The lbs or the builder will have the own influence and most are not XL and can't relate. Do an google search on bike fitting.....see how that goes. !!!! all these fit experts are no different than custom builders. Trust yourself and if you don't know you, then you don't know.......sometimes it takes riding many bikes that don't fit before you know when you find that one that does.......take notes and buy or build the bike of your dreams from these dimensions. I have 4 bikes, sizes 62 thru 66cm, main ride is a 64cm 5.5 Madone but if you figure out you needs you can make anything fit within reason.

Watch out for big bikes with short steerer tubes.....many XL bikes have 300mm steerer tubes.....its a standard length but borderline for guys 6'4" and above....like the 62cm pinner above. Great bike, needs more head tube.


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