# New 105 Vs Old Ultegra?



## chriscc63 (Mar 9, 2011)

NEW 105 VS OLD ULTEGRA?

I know Shimanno has upgraded both group sets in the last 2 years But I have to ask, which is better the new 105 group set or the Old Ultegra? Ok, answer that in your head first and let me explain my reason for asking.

I have a choice, roughly for the same price, $1165 & $1150 of a (new old stock) Jamis Ventura Elite (2009) with the OLD and full Ultegra set up, or a 2011, Felt Z85 with a mostly a 105 setup.

I am not really questioning the brands or frames here, but feel free to comment, but I am mostly curious if any/everyone feels that maybe some of the technology has either been trickled down from Ultegra to 105, or have the group sets have be reengineered better individually and ultimitally whis is better?!

Thanks anyone for your advice, CCC in Da Bronx


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Welcome to the forums. Both are good components, with the Ultegra having very slightly better shifting, but not enough to rule out the 105. 
The biggest difference is really in the ergonomics. You'll like the feel of one more than another. The other major differences are 105 has hidden cables, and the new 105's can only shift up to 2 cogs at a time vs. 3 of the Ultegra. 
My recommendation is to ride both, and see what appeals to you more. Since there's not a price difference, let the ride determine.


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

chriscc63 said:


> NEW 105 VS OLD ULTEGRA?
> 
> I know Shimanno has upgraded both group sets in the last 2 years But I have to ask, which is better the new 105 group set or the Old Ultegra? Ok, answer that in your head first and let me explain my reason for asking.
> 
> ...


Is the old Ultegra 9 speed or 10 speed? I am not familiar with the new 105, but in my experience historically there has not been a great deal of difference between 105 and Ultegra (I have 105 on my commuter and had Ultegra on my former "good" bike until I bought a new "good" bike with Dura Ace). However, I would stay away from 9 speed. It is getting harder to get 9 speed stuff and eventually it will be nearly impossible to do so.


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## chriscc63 (Mar 9, 2011)

so far, thanks you two for your response.
I forget if its 9 but I really do think its 10.

I have ridden both already, but not side by side which sucks cause that would have helped a lot. 

I will be riding them both again this weekend and hope to make a final decision, and so I will pay more attention to the ergonomics as pointed out.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

The Ultegra is a 10sp, they didn't have the 9sp in 2009.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

This is me nitpicking, but sometimes I have a hard time believing what my 6600 Ultegra shifters would sell for at original price. I haven't ridden the new 105, just played around in a shop and found them to at least not come off as cheap.

And if I were picking between your two choices, I would actually factor that in with internal routing (as either a pro or con) and the multiple shifting abilities of either group. Also take note that hood shape on the new 105 is different. IIRC it's essentially longer. But bottom line, neither group actually sucks compared to the other.


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## chriscc63 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ventruck said:


> This is me nitpicking, but sometimes I have a hard time believing what my 6600 Ultegra shifters would sell for at original price. I haven't ridden the new 105, just played around in a shop and found them to at least not come off as cheap.
> 
> And if I were picking between your two choices, I would actually factor that in with internal routing (as either a pro or con) and the multiple shifting abilities of either group. Also take note that hood shape on the new 105 is different. IIRC it's essentially longer. But bottom line, neither group actually sucks compared to the other.




LOL, Ok its good to know that neither suck more than the other.
Admittly I will really miss not having the internal cabeling feature and from what I can gather is really a tel tale signal of a modern set up. As for the 2 vs 3 cog shifting issue, that is something I think I could except. It would mean that one would have to give the shifter anopther pump to get a that 3rd cog.


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## Doolab (Feb 13, 2008)

Here's something to consider.
The 5700 grouppo is almost 2lbs heavier over the Ultegra grouppo, 6600 or 6700.
Also consider if the cranksets are Shimano or FSA/Truvativ/etc. With the crisper shifting going with the Shimano crankset.
As far as the shifters' ergonomics go, I went from the 6600 Ultegra to the 6700 Ultegra, and I preferred the assertive braking feel and leverage afforded by Shimano's new Ultegra set (which I expect is also employed in their 5700 105 grouppo)


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## MisterMike (Aug 12, 2004)

Those are two very different bikes. Get the bike that you fit/feel best on. If you are a recreational or even enthusiast rider you won't really notice much difference in shifting. Doolabs comment about a Shimano cranks shifting better probably is true in most cases but my guess is neither of those bikes have a Shimano crank. I think he's a bit off in his 2lb difference. The new 5700 is only a one to two hundred grams heavier at most.


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

105 is advertised to be 2482 grams. Ultegra is advertised as 2301.

That is no where near 2lbs. 2 lbs is 906 grams. There isn't even a 2 lb weight difference between 105 and Dura Ace.


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## chriscc63 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ok,..That is a lot to swallow. Am I getting this right; the 105 setup aka 5700 is almost 2lbs more than the Ultegra aka 6600? and is 6700 the new Ultegra or did you mean Dura ace!? Regardless the wt. is a big dif!
ok cancel the wt issue it sounds like its false

Thanks for reminding me about the crank set. Someone else also pointed it out to me, I will check it out cause I forgot what it was. But I do remeber the Jamis w/ the ultegra s-u did have an outboard BB. So when we consider if the cranksets are Shimano or FSA/Truvativ etc, are we just talking about the crank arms or crank cogs ?
I dont really care about the arms so much cause they are just dead wt but I can understand the cogs being important. I am more impressed with the outboard BB.


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

105 5700 is not 2 lbs heavier than Ultegra 6600. Ultegra 6600 is only 103 grams heavier than Ultegra 6700. So that means 105 5700 is only 78 grams heavier than Ultegra 6600.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Peanya said:


> The Ultegra is a 10sp, they didn't have the 9sp in 2009.


It's 10 speed:
www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/pdfs/09_venturaelite.pdf


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*New lever feel*

A well-set-up 105 group will shift just as well as a well-set-up Ultegra group.

The shift levers are shaped noticable differently now, so, if you can ride both, do it.

5600/6600/7800 series components all had slender bases, more bulbous tops, and exposed shifter cables.

5700/6700/7900 all have fatter bases, shorter tops, and concealed cables.

My hands are accusomed to the 7800 levers -- they give a nice "pistol grip" position in the hoods -- but my newer ride has 6700 on it and I am getting used to it. 

Dura-Ace is the only level where I notice a significant performance difference in the shift levers over Tiagra.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

You're overthinking this! Try them out. Which shifters feel better? If that doesn't make any difference when you try both, consider which looks better then. Seriously. Both are good bikes. 
If you like the Jamis better, you could always ask for a little more of a discount, as the 5700 is nearly the same quality.


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## Amfoto1 (Feb 16, 2010)

Ultegra 6600 is a nice shifting, reliable setup. I have a bike still equipped with a group, but haven't ridden 5600 in years, or 5700/6700 yet, so cannot compare.

While I really like the cleaner look of hidden cables (I have a couple Sram equipped bikes too), one nice thing about exposed cables is that you can put barrel adjuster right at the lever and it's easy to tweak a little while riding, if needed. With the concealed cables, you're limited to barrel adjusters on the down tube, if at all. 

Yeah, I was going to question the 2 lb. weight difference too. The figures I compiled a couple years ago showed a difference between 6600 and 5600 to be just a little over 200 grams (less than half a pound). I haven't compared 6700 and 5700 weights yet, so can't really say. Sram, on the other hand, Rival is about 300 grams less than 5700 and Force is roughly 400 grams less (or 100 and 200 grams less than 6600, respectively).


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Pick what is comfortable for your hands. Second is the reach differences from the 6600 and 5700, then aesthetics. IMO, I like the looks of the 6600 group set even with the exposed shifter cables.


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## Doolab (Feb 13, 2008)

chriscc63 said:


> Ok,..That is a lot to swallow. Am I getting this right; the 105 setup aka 5700 is almost 2lbs more than the Ultegra aka 6600? and is 6700 the new Ultegra or did you mean Dura ace!? Regardless the wt. is a big dif!
> ok cancel the wt issue it sounds like its false
> 
> Thanks for reminding me about the crank set. Someone else also pointed it out to me, I will check it out cause I forgot what it was. But I do remeber the Jamis w/ the ultegra s-u did have an outboard BB. So when we consider if the cranksets are Shimano or FSA/Truvativ etc, are we just talking about the crank arms or crank cogs ?
> I dont really care about the arms so much cause they are just dead wt but I can understand the cogs being important. I am more impressed with the outboard BB.


The "almost 2 lbs difference" I mentioned before should not be discounted as false.
Let me explain... 

A full 105 grouppo would not only include the shifters/derailleurs, but also would include everything else including the brake calipers, crankset, bottom bracket, pedals, cassette, chains, and wheels. And it's the 105 level wheelset that will come in at around 1750-1900g vs an ultegra level wheelset that would come in at 1480-1550g.

With this in mind, a bike with just 105 level components as listed above will come in almost 2 lbs heavier than another one that is equipped with full Ultegra level components.

That's why most manufacturers will quote 18lbs to 19lbs range for their 105 equipped bikes using an average frame, while the same frame with full Ultegra (not mixed) will usually be quote at 16bs to 17lbs.

Just bringing these things to your attention.... In the end, choose whichever bike you like, and don't worry too much about the grouppos.


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## Doolab (Feb 13, 2008)

I just looked up the 2 bikes on their manufacturers' websites. The 2009 Jamis Ventura Elite is quoted at 18.4lbs, and the 2011 Felt Z85 is listed at 19.98 lbs.

Both bikes use FSA compact cranksets, with one FSA gossamer, and the other FSA Vero (??) but I suspect the front shifting will be comparable between them.

The wheels on the Z85 are 32 spokes f/r which may be preferable if you're over 220lbs or if you'll be riding on some bad roads.
The Ventura Elite in contrast appears to have a 20f / 24r wheelset, although I don't know anything about either wheelset to say which is better/stronger/faster/etc.

With all that said, if you're leaning more towards the Felt (it's what I would pick from these 2), you should be able to bargain your way to a lower price for it, since the price they quoted to you is almost MSRP.

Good luck.


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## chriscc63 (Mar 9, 2011)

Argentius said:


> A well-set-up 105 group will shift just as well as a well-set-up Ultegra group.
> 
> The shift levers are shaped noticable differently now, so, if you can ride both, do it.
> 
> ...


Great, this answered a lot ofmy after thought questions about the series labeling.
I will be going to the shop this weekend armed with the intentions of determining the comfort grip that the hoods offer. thank you for that infor


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## chriscc63 (Mar 9, 2011)

Doolab said:


> I just looked up the 2 bikes on their manufacturers' websites. The 2009 Jamis Ventura Elite is quoted at 18.4lbs, and the 2011 Felt Z85 is listed at 19.98 lbs.
> 
> Both bikes use FSA compact cranksets, with one FSA gossamer, and the other FSA Vero (??) but I suspect the front shifting will be comparable between them.
> 
> ...


Actually Doolab I was kinda leaning towards the Jamis. Its true what you say about the spoke dif and although I only weigh 155lbs the roads in the Bronx are Very unforgiving. I suspect a lot of people end up replacing the rimset most often. After all they are the most delicate of the components and somehow end up getting bent usually by accident in the garage (even though mine will be on the wall in my living room).

Peanya: Do you know how people are when it comes to a sale? like if something is 70% off they might buy it even if they didn't need just because its on sale?! I woulds have baught this 6 months ago if they had just said to me "ok I'll take another 2% off. This Jamis is at a local EMS and they say its already been marked down 30% from $1700+-. I even called corporate to see if there was any pending store wide sales like Proformance bike was offering a 15% store wide sale. But they said "nope!" So I dont feel like I am getting a supper supper deal. Did this bike actually retail for $1700 in 2009?

Thanks Guys


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## durielk (Jan 8, 2011)

You are focusing on the bike, but say nothing on your riding intentions/style. If your into sport/racing riding, 1.5# is a huge difference. If your just planning on riding around smelling the flowers, not so important. I am not familiar with either, but these bikes seem like they are focusing on completely different targets, one is more more of a sturdy training/riding bike.


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## chriscc63 (Mar 9, 2011)

durielk said:


> You are focusing on the bike, but say nothing on your riding intentions/style. If your into sport/racing riding, 1.5# is a huge difference. If your just planning on riding around smelling the flowers, not so important. I am not familiar with either, but these bikes seem like they are focusing on completely different targets, one is more more of a sturdy training/riding bike.


Ah Ha, your right, I did not make my routine clear. I am not into racing but do like to ride as fast and as long as I can . I like to go for very long rides, until my knee gives away again...
I was under impression both bikes were for a more relaxed ride.
I am not so concerened on the Wt. issue, even though it does drag you on long rides.


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