# 20 Min Power > 1 Hour Power?



## kilgoretrout (Dec 16, 2013)

I'm trying to learn how to set up a training plan and looking at my power data, I see that my 20 Min Power (taken during an FTP test) is 70 watts higher than my 1 Hour Power (taken during a race). Technically, shouldn't my 1 Hour Power be around my FTP? 

And if so, the Critical Power curve should remain relatively flat going from 20 Min Power to the 1 Hour Power, right? 

Since mine is so off, I should work on this, but how/what types of workouts? 2 x 20s, Zone 4 workouts, Sweetspot, or ones like that?

Second, I've never really done any structured base work in the winter. I plan to really stick to a plan this year and just do a ton of base. Usually I do some Zone 2 rides while mixing in Sufferfest videos, which I was told are great for the build phase, but not to do during the base. Could my lack of base be one of the problems regarding the discrepancy between 20 Min and 1 Hour power numbers?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Your FTP is your best ever 1 hour of power. Or maybe seen as your current best ability over an hour.

As for 20 minutes, the general rule is that your best 20 minutes is 105% of your FTP. Or rather your FTP is 95% of your best 20 minutes.

The power curve should remain relatively flat between the two, but it should go down towards the hour some.

And there is no 20 minute FTP test really, it's called cheating. It's using the 95% rule usually and it's just a guess. The only way to do a real FTP test is by doing it for an hour. Usually biggest challenge is just finding a place to do it.

As for what to do to get better: I say just keep it simple. Don't overthink it. You feel better on some days vs. others. I would always just try my best. If you ever have any thing left at the end of a workout, you're not doing your best to get better. I think every training ride should be 100% effort that leaves you dead after. And train what you want to be good at. I want to be an ace climber so I train on the mountains. My buddy is a sprinter type so he trains on flatter ground with higher speeds. Just keep it simple and do your best.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

kilgoretrout said:


> I'm trying to learn how to set up a training plan and looking at my power data, I see that my 20 Min Power (taken during an FTP test) is 70 watts higher than my 1 Hour Power (taken during a race). Technically, shouldn't my 1 Hour Power be around my FTP?


By definition the hardest steady one-hour effort you can manage is your FTP.

Your average over a one-hour mass start race is not your FTP because

Accepted models of exercise fatigue 

1. Have stress proportional to the square of average power.

2. Use a weighted average where the most popular formula (Normalized Power) from Coggan takes the fourth root of the average of 30 seconds worth of samples each raised to the fourth power (this reportedly reflects lactate accumulation when you go past your threshold).

which implies harder efforts like accelerations radically reduce your sustainable average power without being offset by the easier segments where you're drafting.

Your normalized power from the race might be close to your FTP. 



> And if so, the Critical Power curve should remain relatively flat going from 20 Min Power to the 1 Hour Power, right?


If you were fresh, sufficiently motivated, and had the opportunity the curve from your maximum sustainable efforts would look a lot like your critical power curve calculated from representative "short" and "longer" samples.

Otherwise assuming you're in good shape the issue is probably that you don't have enough samples.



> Since mine is so off, I should work on this, but how/what types of workouts? 2 x 20s, Zone 4 workouts, Sweetspot, or ones like that?


I like 3x10 or 2x20 for FTP. YMMV.



> Could my lack of base be one of the problems regarding the discrepancy between 20 Min and 1 Hour power numbers?


Not doing a one-hour time trial has more to do with it.


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

MMsRepBike said:


> If you ever have any thing left at the end of a workout, you're not doing your best to get better. I think every training ride should be 100% effort that leaves you dead after. And train what you want to be good at.


No. You should not be dead after every single ride. Doing this will just ride you into a hole and you won't make as big of gains as if you'd trained properly.


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## string_wise (Mar 7, 2010)

MMsRepBike said:


> And there is no 20 minute FTP test really, it's called cheating. It's using the 95% rule usually and it's just a guess. The only way to do a real FTP test is by doing it for an hour. Usually biggest challenge is just finding a place to do it.


Cheating? Most people would call it estimating. 

For new riders an 8 minute test will suffice. Use 90% of that number to estimate your FTP. For more advance riders a 20 minute test works fine. Use 95% of that number to estimate your FTP. The issue with these tests is that for many newer riders they will crack mentally well before they hit their optimal 20/60 minute test numbers. The more experience the rider has the longer the test and the more accurate the results. 

I have come up with my FTP using my strongest 1 hour from a race, as well as the 8 and 20 minute tests. I have also done a blood lactate test. All of them are reasonably accurate and more than accurate enough to set up a training plan. 

Early on, as with you, my long duration numbers were much lower than my short duration numbers. I set a plan based on the shorter numbers and haven't looked back. My FTP is up from the low 200's as an untrained newb to the 300's as a trained newb.

I would establish a plan based on the 8 or 20 minute test and ride hard for 2-3 months based on that plan. Retest every couple of months. Eventually the 20 minute test will seem easy and if you are really into it, so will the 60 minute test. 


Good luck!


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

FTP = 95% of 20-min max power is unusual. Typically it's less than that. 90-94% for most.


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## ucfquattroguy (Nov 10, 2012)

(Insert obligatory YMMV disclaimer)
I've found that the 20min output *.95 has exposed what exactly I needed to work on. Any of the S'fest workouts that emphasis power improvement with short/intense intervals, I'm fine. Where I falter (and begin to question the validity of said FTP estimate) is on the endurance/racing focused workouts from the S'fest such as "Hell Hath No Fury". It's based around a 2x20 workout. I'll get through the first 20min set "OK", but the 2nd set after 6min of recovery is simply hell.

TL/DR version - For me, the estimated FTP is good and most accurate with respect to speed and short interval recovery workouts. It has exposed my weakness during longer efforts.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

ucfquattroguy said:


> (Insert obligatory YMMV disclaimer)
> I've found that the 20min output *.95 has exposed what exactly I needed to work on. Any of the S'fest workouts that emphasis power improvement with short/intense intervals, I'm fine. Where I falter (and begin to question the validity of said FTP estimate) is on the endurance/racing focused workouts from the S'fest such as "Hell Hath No Fury". It's based around a 2x20 workout. I'll get through the first 20min set "OK", but the 2nd set after 6min of recovery is simply hell.
> 
> TL/DR version - For me, the estimated FTP is good and most accurate with respect to speed and short interval recovery workouts. It has exposed my weakness during longer efforts.


It just tells me that using 95% of 20-min max power has probably over estimated your FTP*. I'd rate what power you can routinely sustain for long intervals like a 2x20 as a far better indicator of FTP.

As for your workouts, they should be relative to what you can and have done, not to FTP, although of course using FTP to help guide them initially is and can be helpful.


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## ucfquattroguy (Nov 10, 2012)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> It just tells me that using 95% of 20-min max power has probably over estimated your FTP*. I'd rate what power you can routinely sustain for long intervals like a 2x20 as a far better indicator of FTP.
> 
> As for your workouts, they should be relative to what you can and have done, not to FTP, although of course using FTP to help guide them initially is and can be helpful.


Excellent points. I think the "way to go" here is to continue using the FTP estimate as a guide...not the end-all-be-all benchmark.


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## framesti (Jan 26, 2009)

*ftp estimate*



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> FTP = 95% of 20-min max power is unusual. Typically it's less than that. 90-94% for most.


Should the hill have to be ~10% instead of 5%, to prevent effects of winds affecting numbers?


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