# Zipp hubs not durable?



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Just about every time I ride by someone with Zipps that look more than a couple years old I hear a really bad clicking (almost crunching) sound when they put some force down. I don't know if it's bad maintenance but I've just noticed that I've heard this more with Zipps than any other brand.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

same here. A guy in our training group always has some crap sound coming out of his whiz bang, super expensive ZIPPYS.
They actually failed once. He had to call for a ride home.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

IIRC, one of my teammates moved some Zipp rims onto some other hubs. 'cross season had put paid to the originals.

Seems like a lot of companies that make nice rims refuse to put nice hubs in them and vice versa. Sometimes even companies that have nice aftermarket models of each!

Probably wouldn't stop me from buying a set. But I might want to be more sure I could move them onto new hubs later.


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## brady1 (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't know if I've ever heard the clicking/crunching sound from a Zipp hub but they sure are loud.

There's one rider on our group rides that rolls on Zipp 202s and those things are very loud. Going downhill, it sounds like a swarm of bees.


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## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

Being someone who ACTUALLY OWNS three pairs of Zipps (101/303/808; I really like the hubs. Granted mine are all newer 2012 88/188, but no problems noted whatsoever. They roll very smooth and very, very fast.
Very respectfully, Tim


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I had the drive side rear flange break on my 202s, the pre 2012 model 188. I just sent it off to be rebuilt with a Chris king hub. This is not a rare occurrence and was the reason for the redesign. Afaik any firecrest Wheel should have the redesigned hub. No problem with any newer 188 hub. On the plus side, I've had excellent bearing life with the 88/188 hubs, much better than with 82/182 series. Ymmv.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

edited


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Yup. "Lots of horror stories". That's totally accurate statistical evidence, right? Not biased at all, right? Nobody with good experiences, right? No hidden agenda, right?You don't happen to sell competing products, right?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

edited


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

mrwirey said:


> Being someone who ACTUALLY OWNS three pairs of Zipps (101/303/808; I really like the hubs. Granted mine are all newer 2012 88/188, but no problems noted whatsoever. They roll very smooth and very, very fast.
> Very respectfully, Tim


I agree, love my 88/188 hubs on my zipp 303 fc. Smooth and fast as hell.





goodboyr said:


> Yup. "Lots of horror stories". That's totally accurate statistical evidence, right? Not biased at all, right? Nobody with good experiences, right? No hidden agenda, right?You don't happen to sell competing products, right?


I tend to agree with you. This has been discussed at length over and over again. Zipp probably sells 10x the wheels as the next competitor. Even though there were problems with the older hubs, the 188 hubs have had very little issues. But of course, Any type of issues with the zipp hubs will be talked about at length, even though there is way more product out there from zipps then probably from any other brands, even combined.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Google search Zipp hub failures goodboyr. Hard to argue with the results.


"The results"???????
You have to be kidding, right? Proof by google...........
How about some statistical results, that includes actual failure rate vs number of wheels that don't fail.......I guess you slept through that class in school. 
Maybe I will google "zen cyclery zipp hub failure". That gives me lots of hits too. Maybe you cause zipp hub failures? ( just kidding) .
My bike group has lots of zipps and not one person has ever had a zipp hub fail. My guess is over 20 wheels and more than 10000 miles per rider............but of course you can't find that on a google search so it must not count.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

If there was no problem with the first version of the 188, why was it redesigned?

I've only owned one of that iteration and it failed after very modest use (3-4000 miles on mostly good roads). That's enough to convince me there's a problem. Like I say, the current version has been fine.


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## HarryV (Oct 24, 2009)

I've owned 2 zipp 188 hubs that have failed at the rear DS flange, which in turn have taken a chunk out of my chainstay both times...

I have trialled the v2 188 hubs, which are no doubt stronger, but the lateral deflection from the hub when on the gas is terrible (yep the bearing preload is appropriately set). I can easily make the tyre rub on the seatpost cutout on my S5. Best thing to do would be to cut out the hub and put a king or the like in it...


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

How do you tell the difference between the older 188 hubs and the new ones?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

There is a thin steel reinforcing ring visible on the outside of the drive side flange next to the cassette.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

View attachment 274664


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

Wow, take a deep breath. I agree with Zen. You can do a search and read about the 188 failures on any number of sites. Not sure about statistical information but there are pic's posted on this site and others. Zipp did refine the 188 for 2012 and discontinued the previous version. Yes you can argue they are constantly refining their hubs. 

As far as Zen having bias? I think his posts are anything but biased to his products.

And yes, I am using 88/188 hubs but gave serious consideration to going with Alchemy's


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Like I said earlier - I doubt it would stop me from buying the wheels, though I might buy them as a bare rim in preference.

Suppose I'm ready to buy some aero wheels. They're very expensive, and the big goal is to make me that little bit faster when I'm already going fast. I'd most likely be thinking in terms of track racing, but whatever. The point is, I've already decided it's worth paying a pretty big sum of money to finish a spot higher in a few sprints a week, several times over the course of the summer.

I'm not about to screw up that goal in order to be less likely to have damaged hubs in a couple years. I can already not have damaged hubs in a couple years by buying some $300 wheels with plain rims and Tiagra hubs.

If, in 2-3 years, I have to spend a bit of money on a new hub set and some new spokes, and an afternoon taking apart my Zipps nicely and building a new wheel with the old rims, fine. I bought the wheels to finish some sprints in a little better position; I'll judge them on that basis.

Now, if it were a wheel that I couldn't disassemble to move the rim onto a new hub, I might be less tolerant. I don't want to have to spend the whole purchase price every time the chintzy hub craps out. But Zipps have a relatively conservative spoke count and there're some tips for building with their rims right on their web site.

And if I was presented with two wheels with the same characteristics in terms of helping me collect a couple more points during a race, but one had hubs I thought were better, certainly I'd choose the one with better hubs. I think we all have a lot of fun setting up that kind of hypothetical on the internet, but in real life, I expect I'd also be looking at fairly different pricing, availability (especially if one considers used) and possibly also sponsorship deals.

In other words, I think it's an irritation that an expensive wheel doesn't necessarily come with a good hub, or hasn't anyway, but if I buy something for the rim, I'd better be looking at much more similar rims and prices than happens in real life, or much more catastrophic consequences of hub damage than I think I'd really be looking at, to choose a wheel based on the hub.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Rokh On said:


> As far as Zen having bias? I think his posts are anything but biased to his products.


How about a search on the fact that every time there is a thread on zipps, its pretty well guaranteed that Zen will come on and say something to support the negative view of zipps.

My only point is that it seems people are saying that zipp failures are a certainty, whereas there are thousands of these wheels out there with no failures whatsoever. And of course, every time there is a zipp failure, the only possible reason is that the product is crap, not that there could be other issues.


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## Etod451369 (Apr 22, 2012)

2 Zipp sets (101 & 404) with many miles, absolutely zero issues. Absolutely stellar wheels. 

This here is another example of few bad reports because of the "name", however we don't have any statistics to understand how many sets are sold vs how many have failed. Until we know that we will continue to hear the many horror stories. I will almost bet that the failure rate is within the acceptable range of the manufacturer. Everything is expected to have a fail rate.

I have a no name set (Oval) that I use on my trainer, when my rear hub went out I just put it to the side and purchased another wheel for $60. Because this is a nonevent and no one here will recognize the cheap hub I did not start a thread. 

You see it's all about the name ZIPP


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

No problemos with my 303 FC's or 101's. Of course, all you hear of is problems. No one writes about everyday good performance. And, it must be true because I read it on the internet!


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

Good Morning,
I have 3500 plus mile on a set of 2012 Zipp 303 FireCrest clinchers. 
The shop adjusted the hubs near 1000 miles on them. 
No problem with them. On the down hill they will hear coming or they hear less
of a noise as you pull away.

I was told the older Zipp wheels had some problems if the bearings got wet.

Does any one know about the 2013 202 FireCrest clinchers wheels?

Thanks,


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Anyone thinking of doing a Firecrest rebuild on their own, just a point of information. Zipp uses nipple washers inside the rim. When you disassemble the wheel, you have to get them all out. I've done this a couple of times (not due to failure, but for people wanting PowerTaps) and it's not fun. Just be prepared for a longer job than most wheels.

Me, I just took the wheel apart, put a vacuum to one of the spoke holes and shook the hell out of the rim. It's speeds things up, but annoying to hold a vacuum hose and shake the rim at the same time. After that, I just used new washers I already have here. You have to push something through the spoke hole (hub side) out through the rim to guide the washer and nipple in place so you don't end up losing washers in there again.


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

If you hear more than an occasional anecdotal story about a hub failure, it's unusual. How many complaints do you hear of failures of Dura Ace hubs, or Chris Kings, or Phil Woods, or Alchemys, or Campy Record? Hubs don't need to fail.

Zipp sells a ton of wheels, far more than anyone else, so they do have more failures for that reason. But the statistics, if you really go to collect them, are warped because the vast majority of Zipp users barely put their wheels to the test -- low mileage, no bad weather, no racing or hard use, etc. That's why you can get so many good testimonials. But you do get too many bad reviews of Zipp hubs to be acceptable. I would want virtually zero. Even the very limited breakage of Campy Sheriff's Star high flange C-record hubs gave them a bad name. Again, a hub simply shouldn't have to fail, even when denied proper maintenance and when built improperly. 

I don't have any beef with Zipps and have owned several. But there are better hubs out there and for what you pay for a pair of Zipp wheels, you should have a bulletproof hub. Most large shops or active professional wheelbuilders have stories of Zipp hub failures, but not of failures of other hubs. This isn't about number of posts on Google. It's the best we probably have in statistical sampling. Back to the question: Why should there be any failures at all? Why can't Zipp hubs have the reputation of Chris Kings?


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## chandne (Jan 22, 2004)

Because they simply will not put the money Chris King does, into their hubs. It is much cheaper to warranty the percentage of bad hubs that will turn up. I must say I love the dimpled rims, though I went with a custom wheelset with DA hubs, even though a shop buddy offered me Zipps at 40% off.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Imagine my surprise when I googled "Chris king hub failure" and I got lots of hits including this one:

Chris King Hub Failure - YouTube


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Fireform said:


> I had the drive side rear flange break on my 202s, the pre 2012 model 188. I just sent it off to be rebuilt with a Chris king hub. This is not a rare occurrence and was the reason for the redesign. *Afaik any firecrest Wheel should have the redesigned hub*. No problem with any newer 188 hub. On the plus side, I've had excellent bearing life with the 88/188 hubs, much better than with 82/182 series. Ymmv.


2011 Firecrest wheels have the old 188 hub
2012 & newer Firecrest have the newer 188
(and in addition, only the 2012 hub can be retrofit to use with Dura Ace 9000 11-speed)


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

goodboyr said:


> Imagine my surprise when I googled "Chris king hub failure" and I got lots of hits including this one:
> 
> Chris King Hub Failure - YouTube


Hmm. Video was posted on Aug, 2011. It has 158 views since. That's not a lot of viewers looking for a failed CK hub. Not any sort of scientific statistic, but one would expect more views if CK hubs are failing that bad.

Having said that, when it comes to hubs, there are only 3 that should be looked at
Shimano, Campy, DT Swiss


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

aclinjury said:


> Hmm. Video was posted on Aug, 2011. It has 158 views since. That's not a lot of viewers looking for a failed CK hub. Not any sort of scientific statistic, but one would expect more views if CK hubs are failing that bad.
> 
> Having said that, when it comes to hubs, there are only 3 that should be looked at
> Shimano, Campy, DT Swiss


Whoops. Meant "links" not "hits". In any case, my point is that trying to reach conclusions on failure rates by counting google links is a fools game. As others have said, the internet is a land of complaints, so "results" are useless. I'm sure chris king hubs are good as are zipps. I've had shimano hubs die, and I've seen dt swiss hubs go south. Does that mean they are unreliable? Nope. All good hubs, but they are on bikes. Bikes have parts that are light, need mtce and care, hit potholes, crash, etc. Stuff happens. I suppose none of you drive toyotas for fear of losing control of the car.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Interesting video, no info on what led up to the failure. The youtube poster also doesn't have any other videos related to cycling.

The industry standard appears to be 2 years on warranties.
CK has a 5 year warranty on hubs..
I did a similar search and found a failure of CK hub, possibly related to corrosion (road salt). The failure was under warranty and it was honored.
I would expect to find some failures with products on the net these days, in the end it comes down to warranties and honoring them.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I will generally agree that all hubs fail at some point. No question about it.

However, I also think that Shimano, Campy, and DT Swiss have been making a lot more bicycle hubs, a lot longer, than anybody. These 3 usually sacrifice weight for durability.

I don't have statictics, so I would not say Zipp hubs fail more than others. However, given the generally HIGH PRICE of Zipp wheels, I would say that their hubs are not living to the high price. 

I know a couple guys who train with those 303s and 404s, and I train in my cheapo Mavic Askium. But for the 3 years that we have been training & riding together, between those 2 guys, they have sent their Zipp wheelset in for repair multiple times, while my cheapo Askium set is still going strong. Not any sort of statics,... but... I will NOT buy a Zipp wheelset to train on them. They won't last.

It is comical to see that a cheap $150 wheelset can out last the multi-thousand dollar ones. Askium come standard on may bikes and lots of folks are taking them off and selling them as they want to bling out their bikes with some carbon wheelset. Good for me!

If someone were to ask me what would be my "sweet wheelset", and by "sweet" I mean: performance, reliability, and price. Then I would say Zipp 303 Firecrest rims laced to Dura Ace hubs. This hypothetical combination would be a sweetest thing out there, and you can even use it as training wheelset. Done deal.


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

Zen Cyclery said:


> There are a ton of horror stories I've seen/heard about drive side flange failures, and internal failures on the rear hub. I haven't seen any front hub issues though.
> 
> But yes, there are much better hub options out there. Ones that would be easy to service and wouldn't leave you stuck with proprietary parts.


I'm unclear - what parts are particularly hard to service or proprietary? The freehub bodies? That's the same for every hub out there. These use standard cartridge bearings so replacing those is a non-issue. The spokes are straight-pull CX-rays that you can get from several online vendors or distributors. Nipples are likewise normal aluminum external nipples.

The Zipp hub has an exceptionally wide NDS and DS center-to-flange widths so it makes a nice stiff wheel.


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> Not any sort of statics,... but... I will NOT buy a Zipp wheelset to train on them. They won't last.


I tend to agree - They ARE race wheels, even if they're clinchers. Yes, many people get many thousands of non-racing miles on them, but I think training on race wheels is counter-productive and even if these aren't the most ultra-light wheelset available, they DO achieve their relatively low weight through reduces spoke counts, light hubs, and of course carbon rims - all of which can serve to reduce service life of the wheel.


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## HaroldC (Oct 12, 2010)

goodboyr said:


> How about a search on the fact that every time there is a thread on zipps, its pretty well guaranteed that Zen will come on and say something to support the negative view of zipps.


+1. And pimps Enve rims too. You'd think they were the best thing since sliced bread....

Edit: I forgot to add - I own 2 sets of FC 303 CCs and one set of 101s. Fantastic wheels, have tons of miles and races and no problems.


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

goodboyr said:


> How about a search on the fact that every time there is a thread on zipps, its pretty well guaranteed that Zen will come on and say something to support the negative view of zipps.
> 
> My only point is that it seems people are saying that zipp failures are a certainty, whereas there are thousands of these wheels out there with no failures whatsoever. And of course, every time there is a zipp failure, the only possible reason is that the product is crap, not that there could be other issues.


I do have to agree here on the point that there are thousands of zipp wheel owners who have not had any failures. But since there ARE thousands of users, u will undoubtedly here more problems than other less commonly used wheelsets/hubs. 

I own a pair of Zipp 202s with 88/188 hubs and a pair of Velocity a23s with CK R45s. Both good hubs IMO/E... at least, thus far. 😉


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

HaroldC said:


> +1. And pimps Enve rims too. You'd think they were the best thing since sliced bread....
> 
> Edit: I forgot to add - I own 2 sets of FC 303 CCs and one set of 101s. Fantastic wheels, have tons of miles and races and no problems.


So just because people sell things they can't have opinions like everyone else? Almost every review on the internet I've read of Zipp FC vs. Enve SES says the SES are better. 



> While lots of people have been talking about the SES rims, many publications seem to be avoiding the fact that Enve is definitely taking a shot directly at Zipp’s Firecrest line. Putting together an Enve set equivalently priced to 303 firecrest (3.4 clinchers, Tune 45/170 hubs and CxRay spokes) you can end up with a wheel set that is virtually identical in terms of aerodynamics across the board, but handles better and saves more than 200 grams of weight. Comparing the same build with 6.7 clinchers to the 404 set you have the same handling advantage, 180 grams of weight savings, and arguably an even more aero wheel than the 404. So it looks like that shot was well placed.


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

What is your RACE wheelset? How many miles have you put on each of your Race wheelset? 
Thanks,


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## Michael15 (Aug 17, 2010)

I don't get the attack on Zen? He gave his opinion based on his experiences. I don't recall him saying that ALL Zipps will fail but that there have been several failures. In his opinion there are better hubs out there. I've chatted via email with them and I find them to be very knowlegable and I did not buy a wheelset from them but I would have no problem doing so. The fact anyone thinks he/they are "pushing" their products take it into consideration when coming to your own decision.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

edited


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

goodboyr said:


> "The results"???????
> You have to be kidding, right? Proof by google...........
> How about some statistical results, that includes actual failure rate vs number of wheels that don't fail.......I guess you slept through that class in school.
> Maybe I will google "zen cyclery zipp hub failure". That gives me lots of hits too. Maybe you cause zipp hub failures? ( just kidding) .
> My bike group has lots of zipps and not one person has ever had a zipp hub fail. My guess is over 20 wheels and more than 10000 miles per rider............but of course you can't find that on a google search so it must not count.


edited


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

nhluhr said:


> I tend to agree - They ARE race wheels, even if they're clinchers.


I don't think the fact that they are race wheels is an excuse not to have good durable hubs honestly. IMHO anytime you're paying that kind of money for a wheelset the hubs should spin butter smooth for a long time.


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

Michael15 said:


> I don't get the attack on Zen? He gave his opinion based on his experiences. I don't recall him saying that ALL Zipps will fail but that there have been several failures. In his opinion there are better hubs out there. I've chatted via email with them and I find them to be very knowlegable and I did not buy a wheelset from them but I would have no problem doing so. The fact anyone thinks he/they are "pushing" their products take it into consideration when coming to your own decision.


Zen is a good guy and I both value and agree with his opinions on almost any wheel issue, including this one. Before anyone shoots at him, they ought to think seriously about what he said. And note that the experienced wheelbuilders here, like Ergott, in one fashion or another have the same thing to say. Oddly the OP didn't really ask a question -- just commented on what he'd seen. But it's a common observation and Zen's observation was spot on. A couple subsequent postings misstated his comments and were polemic and negative -- and that was inappropriate. Anyone should quote accurately and remain polite on these forums. One poster on this thread in particular, a relative newcomer, simply embarrassed himself.


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

Was told the by the LBS, 30 to 60 more day for the Zipp 202 FC, they are waiting for huds, ha-.
Done waiting, moving on.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

deviousalex said:


> I don't think the fact that they are race wheels is an excuse not to have good durable hubs honestly. IMHO anytime you're paying that kind of money for a wheelset the hubs should spin butter smooth for a long time.


How long do parts last on an Indy car? How about tires on a race motorcycle? When did people lose their senses and start to think that lightweight race parts should last as long as heavy "normal" parts? Regardless of the thousands of morons riding around on Zipps and Lightweights as their everyday wheels, they ARE race wheels. People used to be smart enough to have training wheels and race wheels. Now they just don't get that you pay for light weight OR durability, with few exceptions.


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## LouisVuitton (Aug 31, 2009)

The rule of thumb is that the stock zipp hubs are not very good. It's adequate for maybe lightweight riders who are at about 160 or less lbs. but not really recommended as an overall strong, stiff, and reliable for the long run. There are exceptions to the rule and I know of people who had zero problems with their zipp Hubs after thousands of miles, but generally speaking they're not very good. 

So most people who buy zipps, get them custom built who better hubs like alchemy, Chris king, dtswiss, etc. The Zipp hubs are horrible but the zipp hoops themselves are very very very good wheels. Strong, aero, stiff, practically bomb proof, and ultra good braking surface (best out of all
Carbon wheels out there). 

Btw, this is all my opinion of course and I'm sure there are ppl who will disagree with me.


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

LouisVuitton said:


> *The rule of thumb is that the stock zipp hubs are not very good.* It's adequate for maybe lightweight riders who are at about 160 or less lbs. but not really recommended as an overall strong, stiff, and reliable for the long run. There are exceptions to the rule and I know of people who had zero problems with their zipp Hubs after thousands of miles, but generally speaking they're not very good.


This is in no way an actual rule of thumb.


> So *most people who buy zipps, get them custom built* who better hubs like alchemy, Chris king, dtswiss, etc.


That is not even close to being true.


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

nhluhr said:


> This is in no way an actual rule of thumb.
> That is not even close to being true.


I tend to agree with : 

1. Not the rule of thumb ( at least with the "newer" hubs). 
2. Not sure with the "most" in the later statement either. 

But LouisVuitton statements are at least somewhat fair. I think the Zipp hoops are well designed as a whole. Most of the issues seem to be with their hubs. Again, at least the older ones. Time will tell with the newer ones.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I find your salty, crusty nature to be quite entertaining.


Chapeau to you. I have nothing against you personally, and the internet is entertainment first, info second, after all, so I think we understand each other. My intention is to provide a counter opinion so that people can see both sides and judge.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Well said 11.4. There does seem to be a lot of failures. I, nor anyone on this forum, knows the actual statistics of failure rates, but they don't seem in any way robust. 

How much of the problem is in the lacing - radial drive side never inspires confidence for me.


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## mtor (Mar 1, 2007)

deviousalex said:


> Just about every time I ride by someone with Zipps that look more than a couple years old I hear a really bad clicking (almost crunching) sound when they put some force down. I don't know if it's bad maintenance but I've just noticed that I've heard this more with Zipps than any other brand.


Same here


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## HarryV (Oct 24, 2009)

Here's the exploding 188 hubs from my 2 sets of Zipps, a set of 303s, and some Zedtech 404s.... I won't get started on the painful warranty process that dealing with Echelon sports/Zipp proved to be here in Australia... Needless to say, I don't own any zipps anymore...

















[/quote]


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

I found this site Wheel Builder where you can skip the headache and get your Zipps laced on whichever hubs you like with whichever spokes you like. For me personally I'd probably get a 101 with Chris King R45s and Sapim CX-Ray spokes.

Custom Handbuilt Zipp Road Wheels - Wheelbuilder.com


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

2013 Rim Roundup - Fair Wheel Bikes

Fairwheel doesn't have good things to say about that rim.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

^huh...what didn't they like? The spoke count and rim weight?

The 188 is a good hub. But, I am somewhat suspect of it. That is primarily due to the pre-load/bearing play it has. They claim when pre-load is set on the rear, there should be some wiggle/slack to move freely. But who wants their wheel to move around 3-4mm between the pads nearly? I don't. Even tightening it up doesn't remove it. They claim when you tighten the skewer it will force the pre-load up some...but there is still slight play/wiggle clearly in the bearing.

I've got 2012 303 FC tubulars.

I happened to take the rear hub apart to lube/grease it yesterday after a ride. The dust/rubber cover around that part isn't the best for sure. It doesn't seal well. The grease was a bit dirty. 

But with that said, it literally took me 10 minutes of taking my time to take it apart, clean the grease/dirt out. Give it a good greasing, and a drop of synthetic oil on the pawls...and back together with the pre-load set. Sounds great and smooth.

The front hub I've never had concerns or issues with. The complaints about Zipp have always been the 188 hub. All they did in the 2012 is make it slightly wider for better stiffness. Otherwise, it's the same hub as the old.

There isn't anything special required for servicing the rear hub. Just the 3x bearings I believe it has. 2 on the sides, one next to the freehub. Guessing you would need some tool to remove the bearing/press when the time comes at 6000 miles or something. But I don't know any hub that doesn't require some unique tool/special knowledge to service the bearings. Some require hub tools also making them more of a PITA to do basic service.

Support | 88/188 Hub Maintenance | Zipp - Speed Weaponry


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Well, first of all, the current 188 hub is not just wider than the first issue--the drive side flange is reinforced with a steel ring. That's an important addition, made because of failures like the one shown above and the one that occurred to my hub. Second, there is no reason for there to be "3-4mm" of play in the wheel at the pads. It's easy to set the preload so that there is just perceptible play, much less than a mm, when the wheel is clamped in. And, there are four bearings in the 188 including the freehub, not 3. If you put yours together with 3 bearings, I'm not surprised it has 3-4mm of play.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

How long do we expect these things to last? 

My zipps are only used on race day. I race about 30 times a year on the road. If the races average 50 miles that's 1500mi/year. 

Can I expect 4500 miles? I'm OK with three seasons.


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## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

I just recently purchased some 101's with the new hub design... one of the selling points was the hubs. Perhaps they break too often, but I'm willing to take my chances. By the looks of the wheels on the road, a lot of riders are taking their chances. Fingers crossed, but for now I'm loving those hubs. Drastic difference between the mavics they replaced.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

Fireform said:


> Well, first of all, the current 188 hub is not just wider than the first issue--the drive side flange is reinforced with a steel ring. That's an important addition, made because of failures like the one shown above and the one that occurred to my hub. Second, there is no reason for there to be "3-4mm" of play in the wheel at the pads. It's easy to set the preload so that there is just perceptible play, much less than a mm, when the wheel is clamped in. And, there are four bearings in the 188 including the freehub, not 3. If you put yours together with 3 bearings, I'm not surprised it has 3-4mm of play.


Thanks for the correction, the 4th is in the freehub itself, left that off. The diagram I linked to in the post shows it.

But, someone said the 2013 hub resolved the issue of any play/wiggle whatsoever in the pre-load now. Not sure what year hub you have?
But they re-worked the hub due to the fact it support 11sp, and the wheels weigh more. So the 188 hub is different in 2013 wheels compared to 188 2012 wheels that are 10sp hubs.

The cyclist shouldn't be fooling around with pre-load anyway. The manufacturer should solve that issue with a technical solution like Vision has done.

"The new Vision wheels come equipped with proprietary P.R.A. hubs (the abbreviation stands for “preload reduction assembly”). The preload adjustment axle design separates the load from the quick release and hub assembly to prevent overloading the bearing. This gives the bearing better rotation and a longer life span."

I've personally haven't had any problems with my rear hub so far. Maybe 600-700 miles on it, which isn't much, and I've only cleaned/lubed it 2x times. I'm sure it will last a long time and won't be an issue. A Worse case, I will have the wheel rebuilt with something like Alchemy's new UL rear hub, or ditch the wheels altogether for some Vision Metron 40/55 when they hit the market...problem solved, and lighter weight with same aero benefits.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Well, plenty of hubs require preload adjustment. If you're maintaining your own hubs, you pretty much need to be able to set the preload, and it isn't rocket science. 

Lest anyone get confused, the 188 has two bearings in the hub body and two in the freehub body, like many others. I've personally had very good bearing life in my Zipp 88/188 hubsets. Even the ones that exploded still had good bearings in them.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

Correct, pre-load is normal and most hubs have them. I'm not adverse to the pre-load, but the issue of pre-load and skewer tightening which then adds more pre-load and bearing drag is what I was referring to and Vision's PRA solution. Nobody has this method design.

Well, either does Vision in production. I spoke with them and the new Vision Metron won't be available until August. MSRP is going to be in the $2600 range.

The more I ride my 303 FC tubulars, the more I dislike the rear hub, the lack of stiffness and overall lacing design. 12 radial drive side and 12 cross on the NDS is the opposite everybody is going to for stiffness/stability, particularly with the 11sp hubs. For the older 10sp, well, the past is the past. But, Zipp is still sticking with the same old method and lacing on the new 11sp freehub and lacing pattern. 

My rear spokes make a creaking sound when just starting to put weight on the crank. I would assume that is the hub/spokes and flex due to lack of stiffness due to the above.

The bearings themselves are not an issue. They are the same bearings pretty much everybody uses. It is the rest of the hub/lacing/body/axle that is the issue IMO.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

zigmeister said:


> My rear spokes make a creaking sound when just starting to put weight on the crank. I would assume that is the hub/spokes and flex due to lack of stiffness due to the above.


The rear hub of my four week old Zipp 202 Clinchers creaked like crazy when climbing. A quick web search and email to Zipp revealed that for some reason Zipp hubs are built "dry" and sometimes require greasing the inside of the hub shell (by removing the bearings) and contact point between the cassette carrier and hub.

I had my LBS do this, and the creaking is gone.

I love my Zipp 202 Clinchers, but I'm not thrilled that $2500 wheels required servicing to make them run without creaking.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

FWIW, I find the 188 hub alone, along with the lacing pattern used, lacking when compared to other's mentioned in this thread.

However, I've found, the sum of all parts making the Zipp wheelset sets it apart. 

I was fortunate on a deal of a lifetime for my 404 FC CC's, insanely stupid, otherwise, like many posting their concerns here and elsewhere, I would have never purchased at the retail price.

Now, I'm not so sure...

I have never known a more finicky, more stubborn, more "human-like" wheelset to dial in. And this goes well past setting pre-load, creaks, break brushing etc. 

From painting a thin coat of nail polish on the axle cartridge bearing tracks, finding just the right grease, the right amount, placed exactly on the right location, flipping cartridge bearings periodically, cleaning pawls/springs, the right oil on the hub ratchet, the right amount of tightening for the freehub lock nut (those alu freehub threads will fail either side of the perfect final turn) oil of spoke anchors, special treatment of rear cross spokes, removing Zipp Badges (well, that's a one time thing), service of skewers, finding perfect F/R clamping pressure...and then...like art...dialing in the preload, finding and learning that special feel - in combination with your skewer clamping, for your weight and riding needs.

Good lord. This wheelset investment of time and focus is like the the work of a healthy relationship with your significant other. It is a covenant, not a contract. It takes patience, empathy and compassion.

And...its a frigg'n wheelset!

And...its expensive!

And...I shouldn't have to be doing all this crap (heck, at any price)

And...it is the best all round wheel set I have ever experienced out here in CO. Yes, for me, over American, Fulcrum, DA and Mavic (Me; 77kg, 61cm frame) 

That wheelset has given me the opportunity to dial it in fitting my specific needs. I like that. Just like the fine tuning I enjoy with the bike. I've reconsidered the price as including the easy opportunity to manipulate to my needs. I wish the folks at Apple did the same  

RE: the hub or whatever Zipp, valuating individual components I've found does not work for me. Somehow it has become the unique combination that works, and very well.


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

*Check bearing Shaft*

good evening,
I was told that incorrect adjust would cause problems.
Over tighten is bad. You may need new bearings and shaft.
I didn't do anything to my set and did have problems. Now new part and working okay. $$$$ parts after warranty time.

I would like to now about changing out the hub after the warranty ends.

We all need a little luck.

..


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## benhama (Oct 21, 2013)

Cni2i, I wondered if you could update us on how your wheels are doing with the CK R45s?


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

I had some 303s a while back. The hubs are trash, and I sold the wheels.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Notvintage said:


> I had some 303s a while back. The hubs are trash, and I sold the wheels.


What went wrong with the hubs? Bearings, flange breaking, freehub problems...?


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

DonDenver said:


> ... I have never known a more finicky, more stubborn, more "human-like" wheelset to dial in. And this goes well past setting pre-load, creaks, break brushing etc.
> 
> From painting a thin coat of nail polish on the axle cartridge bearing tracks, finding just the right grease, the right amount, placed exactly on the right location, flipping cartridge bearings periodically, cleaning pawls/springs, the right oil on the hub ratchet, the right amount of tightening for the freehub lock nut (those alu freehub threads will fail either side of the perfect final turn) oil of spoke anchors, special treatment of rear cross spokes, removing Zipp Badges (well, that's a one time thing), service of skewers, finding perfect F/R clamping pressure...and then...like art...dialing in the preload, finding and learning that special feel - in combination with your skewer clamping, for your weight and riding needs. ... .


There are literally 100s of "serious" and/or "racer" cyclists locally (So Calif) who ride Zipps (clinchers mostly) as their everyday wheel).

I've not known anyone to have that level of issues ... that list seems hyperbolically over-the-top.

Maybe the poster is not telling us he weighs 300 lbs? 
There is a rider weight limit on most "road race" oriented components, whether it be frame or wheels.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

The flange on my 182 rear hub failed. I weighed 165 at the time. This failure was by no means a rare occurrence.


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

benhama said:


> Cni2i, I wondered if you could update us on how your wheels are doing with the CK R45s?


I am not usually a fan-boy of any one product, but the CK r45s are just superb hubs. In fact, I like them so much that I have them on my Enve 3.4s and enve 25s. Thus far, no maintenance issues, no strange noises, and of course, performs great. 

I also have the zipp 303s with 188 hubs. Thus far, had to do maintenance once in 1.5 years. Not too bad.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

*Read before you comment...*



tom_h said:


> There are literally 100s of "serious" and/or "racer" cyclists locally (So Calif) who ride Zipps (clinchers mostly) as their everyday wheel).
> 
> I've not known anyone to have that level of issues ... that list seems hyperbolically over-the-top.
> 
> ...


...please. Read that my weight was provide for you (I'll let you convert from Kg) along with my bike frame size allowing my 6'4" body to drape over it. There was some sarcasm included in my post and I indicated I'm fond of my FC404's. Oh, and in Boulder CO area the 404's are my everyday set. As for your "hyperbolically"... If you owned the wheels and serviced zips over the years you'd understand...as do your friends in SoCal.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Chris King R45 are not guaranteed to be bullet proof. I have a friend who has broken three Campy CK R45 rear hubs in the past 6 months. He weighs around 190 lbs, and broke the hubs riding on the road (no XC). His rear wheel is 32 spoke.


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

Well, I sure liked my FC 303.
I'm planning to try a set of ENVE 3.4 with DT Swiss hubs for a new bike.

.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

tvad said:


> Chris King R45 are not guaranteed to be bullet proof. I have a friend who has broken three Campy CK R45 rear hubs in the past 6 months. He weighs around 190 lbs, and broke the hubs riding on the road (no XC). His rear wheel is 32 spoke.


What part of the hub broke/failed?


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Bearings. .


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ergott said:


> What part of the hub broke/failed?


I believe it's been the freehub in all three cases.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

tvad said:


> I believe it's been the freehub in all three cases.


Was it the engagement mechanism, splines or bearings failing? I'm just trying to get an idea of what went wrong. If you don't have the details that's fine.

Thanks


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

tvad said:


> The rear hub of my four week old Zipp 202 Clinchers creaked like crazy when climbing. A quick web search and email to Zipp revealed that for some reason Zipp hubs are built "dry" and sometimes require greasing the inside of the hub shell (by removing the bearings) and contact point between the cassette carrier and hub. ...


What?! That makes no sense ...

Last year (2013), when I removed the freehub of my 2010 404s for routine inspection, there very definitely was lube on the pawls and inside of hub shell. 

I cleaned the ratchets/pawls and _lightly _re-lubed with 80W-120 auto gear oil.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ergott said:


> Was it the engagement mechanism, splines or bearings failing? I'm just trying to get an idea of what went wrong. If you don't have the details that's fine.
> 
> Thanks


My understanding is it's the splines.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

tom_h said:


> What?! That makes no sense ...


What can I say? The hub I had serviced was dry according to the mechanic who greased it.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

tvad said:


> My understanding is it's the splines.


Many times the most common reason for splines getting cut through it's because the lockring isn't torqued to spec. Most people don't crank down hard enough and cassette cogs are allowed to shift independently. I've seen the results happen with every aluminium cassette carrier, not just Chris King.

If the cassette was to torque spec and there is still extreme gouging of the splines the solution is a freehub body made out of something else. Chris King makes a cassette carrier out of stainless steel, White Industries and Dura Ace out of titanium and Ultegra out of steel. There are probably others, but those are the ones I've come across.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

tom_h said:


> What?! That makes no sense ...
> 
> Last year (2013), when I removed the freehub of my 2010 404s for routine inspection, there very definitely was lube on the pawls and inside of hub shell.
> 
> I cleaned the ratchets/pawls and _lightly _re-lubed with 80W-120 auto gear oil.


I had the same creaking. This was not the pawls and ratchet. In early 188 hubs they pressed the bearings in dry. So they creaked. The fix was to pull the bearings out and then lightly coat the outer shell of the bearing with grease and then press them back in. Thats what he meant by being "dry". Only affected first year of the 188 hubs.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

tvad said:


> What can I say? The hub I had serviced was dry according to the mechanic who greased it.


After reading goodboyr's reply below, now it makes sense.

" _... This was not the pawls and ratchet. In early 188 hubs they pressed the bearings in dry. So they creaked. The fix was to pull the bearings out and then lightly coat the outer shell of the bearing with grease and then press them back in. Thats what he meant by being "dry". ..._ "


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

goodboyr said:


> Only affected first year of the 188 hubs.


Mine are 2013 Zipps, and yes you correctly described the issue.


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