# Weight Lifting for Cycling - Your Stories?



## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

Who uses weight lifting for your cycling training and what results have you seen in regards to your cycling? Can you give a few specifics of your program also - #days each week, type of workouts etc. Thanks.


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## WeakSister (Oct 30, 2009)

For lower body, I do high-rep/low-weight leg press, leg curl, hip/back extensions, and maybe some kettlebell swings and goblet squats. Minimal rest, sometimes supersetting between exercises, for about four sets. Immediately after I do 30 mins on rollers to maintain pedal efficiency.

I try to do it twice a week, but as racing season approaches I taper off gym work as the on-bike intensity increases. I read that Ned Overend sees value in year-round lower body lifting for master racers, so maybe I'll try to keep it going this year.


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## dmaciel (Oct 10, 2012)

I lift but only upper body and lighter weight lots of reps


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## Nubster (Jul 8, 2009)

I did CrossFit over the winter. There is a lot of weight lifting involved. Lots of deads, squats (back, front, overhead) cleans, snatches...then of course loads of body weight movements too. With the weights...it varies between heavy low reps and light high reps. I found there's a definite benefit to my riding after doing this over the winter and I'll continue doing some sort of resistance training all summer, even if it isn't CF.


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

Since posting this, I've learned this is one of those controversial subjects in Cycling.

Part of what made me bring it up was some reading a while back on two extreme endurance athletes from other sports. One was a guy who set a record for climbing all the highest peaks in the world and another was Dean K., the Utra Marathoner. They both mentioned customized strength programs as being key to getting through kind of a plateau in their performance lives. 

I hear all the intelligent arguments on this forum of why it's better to use the time to cycle than to weight train for cycling results. But, maybe weight training is the kind of thing that helps build some kind of better physiological structure for cycling that cycling alone can't do?. 

It was counter intuitive to me to hear about some of these extreme endurance guys from other sports who were substituting some of their endurance training time for high paced strength training and feeling stronger because of it. I know, this is simply anecdotal stuff, but interesting none the less.

At the very least, a minimal amount of weight training for cyclists would seem to help keep bones strong over time.

Personally, I cycle for health, fitness and fun, so some weight training definitely fits into my overall goals.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

from my perspective as an older (45) woman, weight training is a necessity for a host of reasons, not the least of which that cycling is not a weight-bearing exercise. 

I do a mix of kettlebells, bodyweight / military style training (squats, presses, planks, pullups) and some agility / strength drills I learned from taking a parkour class (no really). In the offseason I also skate (nordic) ski, jump rope and run regularly to mix it up and avoid too much trainer time. I do weights and stretching 2-3x / week depending on my periodization load. I also just recently discovered that it's $8 for 4 hours of open/free skating at the CU ice arena on weekend nights, which is about the cheapest entertainment known to man. I used to figure skate as a kid and seem to have retained some of the muscle memory, plus it's fun!

All in all, the best crosstraining (I find) is stuff you'll actually do. One of the cheapest and quickest ways to improve balance and core strength is just to fill up a 5 gallon bucket with water and walk it around the yard or whatever. You don't necessarily need a gym or crossfit membership if you find something moderately intense that you can handle 30 minutes of a couple times a week.

Incorporating HIIT (high intensity interval training) is one of the quickest ways to increase aerobic capacity - just google around and you'll find quite a bit of research supporting it.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

I also weight train, for the some of same reasons mentioned above, plus the fact that I don't like the trainer and need to do something. 

Performing CF type stuff and stretching all winter really helps my lower back during my race season. I really love the CF stuff and luckily have access to CF gym at the AF base. I usually like to do a typical WOD (Cindy being a favorite), then follow up with some careful heavy lifting (DL, squats, and/or power cleans). Then stretch thoroughly afterwards. I periodize the weight workouts myself, so that I don't beat myself up too much and therefore lift 5-6 days a week. I just can't do those CF classes at the same intensity as those 25 yr olds. 

Last season after doing 3 months of CF like stuff in the winter, I eventually got some great power numbers by mid summer (PR for 5sec and 20min). Records that stood for 6 years and broken at age 46. Not bad. 

When doing winter lifting like this, i just accept the fact that it will take me 5 months on the bike to get fast. I won't be fast at all for spring races. But keeps me pretty fresh for CX season, which is my concentration.

I started riding outside two weeks ago and it's like starting over, but not too bad. Will continue to base train March, April, and May; and will try to continue weight room stuff 1-2X a week throughout that period. BTW, I'm a Masters Cat 3, Cat 1 MTB, and Masters B CX, if that matters.


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## vetboy (Oct 11, 2005)

mm9 said:


> Since posting this, I've learned this is one of those controversial subjects in Cycling.
> 
> Part of what made me bring it up was some reading a while back on two extreme endurance athletes from other sports. One was a guy who set a record for climbing all the highest peaks in the world and another was Dean K., the Utra Marathoner. They both mentioned customized strength programs as being key to getting through kind of a plateau in their performance lives.
> 
> ...


Agreed that weight training is a hot button issue among cyclists. Research seems divided as to whether it benefits endurance athletes. As to your point about being surprised that ultra endurance athletes claim to benefit from taking time away from endurance training for weights - remember that these guys may be doing 20-30h per week of endurance work. Taking out a few of those hours for some weights probably isn't going to hurt their aerobic engine. The same would not be true for the masters athlete who is only doing 6-8h per week - take away 2 or 3 of those for weights and the aerobic engine would suffer. In this case, time would be better spent on the bike.

All that aside, I still think some weight training is good for overall health and since most of us don't pay the bills on the bike, why not hit the gym from time to time.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

mm9 said:


> Who uses weight lifting for your cycling training and what results have you seen in regards to your cycling? Can you give a few specifics of your program also - #days each week, type of workouts etc. Thanks.


My experience.

When I had a coach as a junior and espoir, I'd be in the weightroom 3x a week from November through Feb. I'd start out higher reps, 3x10-12 at 15rm or whatever it's called and progress to 4-5 reps by Feb. These workouts would be continuous alternating sets...i.e., push machine + pull machine (whatever their names are). Bench + pulldown, leg curls + extensions, leg press and clean and jerk, etc. It doesn't honestly seem like a very good session and maybe that's why I didn't like it, but that's how the workouts were written. 

By Feb I'd be so tired that I wouldn't be able to hit prescribed workouts on the bike so I'd stop the weightroom by mid to late Feb, replace the Wed workout with 3-4 hours easy, and by March be absolutely flying. Pretty huge overload and supercomp at work I guess.

First thing I did when I stopped the coaching, though, was get rid of the weights and I'm always glad I did. Lifting weights is hard, very hard and I never, ever thought the effort translated to cycling like a similar effort performed on the bike would (again, that could be because of the routines I was using, but still). The specificity just wasn't there. Maybe if I were a trackie or something, but for road cycling, I never bought into it and I really never enjoyed it that much. I understand it was done partly because a one hour gym workout was much easier to fit in than a 2-3 hour bike workout in the dead of winter, and now with a full-time job that does make sense, but it's still not something I'll ever go back to if cycling fitness is my priority. 

So, that's my experience.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

I'm just trying to understand this runabike...

"I'd start out higher reps, 3x10-12 at 15rm or whatever it's called and progress to 4-5 reps by Feb." 

Can you explain that a little better. Maybe it's just me. Usually it's the weight times the rep like 100x12 for 3 sets. Where you only doing 3 reps then going up to 4 or 5 reps per set? What is 15rm? Please try to articulate your thoughts better please. It sounds like you didn't have a good coach but it's not clear.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

mm9 said:


> Since posting this, I've learned this is one of those controversial subjects in Cycling.
> 
> Part of what made me bring it up was some reading a while back on two extreme endurance athletes from other sports. One was a guy who set a record for climbing all the highest peaks in the world and another was Dean K., the Utra Marathoner. They both mentioned customized strength programs as being key to getting through kind of a plateau in their performance lives.
> 
> ...


One reason I believe many cyclists on this forum mention that you should spend your time cycling instead of weight training is the assumption that you're probably not training most days of the week and thus sport specific would probably be the best. If you're training 6-7 days a week then it makes more sense to get more variety.

What I find from strength training is that I'm more able to tolerate sustained hard efforts. Resistance training strengthens muscles and the attachment points and helps reduce injury as well as many other benefits. So what I mean by tolerate sustained efforts is especially that my knees, hips, ankles, etc. are used to taking a higher than normal load of force for a time since the joints have been strengthened and the stabilizer muscles have been strengthened.

What my coach has me doing are a lot of dynamic movements exercises, specifically a lot of plyometrics. This helps build the muscles that aren't used as much when using more controlled apparatuses like weight machines but doesn't run the risk of injury like using heavier loads with free weights. I've always been a fan of olympic/dynamic type lifts such as power clean, power snatch, clean and jerk and so on since they require most of your body to be in sync in order to do the workout. Most of what I'm doing lately is box jumps, static squat-like things like wall sits and ski tuck/sit, squat jumps, etc. Single leg dips and jumps are the devil but they work, especially with improving balance and single leg coordination.

Also doing a lot of core work with more focus on the back than the front, lots of planks and superman exercise.


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## vetboy (Oct 11, 2005)

bikerector said:


> One reason I believe many cyclists on this forum mention that you should spend your time cycling instead of weight training is the assumption that you're probably not training most days of the week and thus sport specific would probably be the best. If you're training 6-7 days a week then it makes more sense to get more variety.
> 
> *What I find from strength training is that I'm more able to tolerate sustained hard efforts. Resistance training strengthens muscles and the attachment points and helps reduce injury as well as many other benefits. So what I mean by tolerate sustained efforts is especially that my knees, hips, ankles, etc. are used to taking a higher than normal load of force for a time since the joints have been strengthened and the stabilizer muscles have been strengthened.
> *
> ...


Except research demonstrates that cycling requires very little muscular force, especially when compared to weight lifting. Therefore, your ability to tolerate *sustained* hard efforts has very little to do with your muscular strength, and a lot to do with your ability to ride above your lactate threshold - and weight lifting will not help in that arena.


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## jroy (Jul 26, 2011)

It looks as though he is saying 3 sets by 10 to 12 reps at a weight of his 15 Rep max. 15 RM is the maximum weight that can be lifted 15 times.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

I do a few weights and bar dips before my morning trainer spin a few times a week - 10 to 15 reps and a couple sets. Nothing much really, just so I don't end up looking like a stick person upper body and to hopefully maintain some muscle/joint/bone strength.


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## WeakSister (Oct 30, 2009)

I knew it would be a matter of time before this thread degenerated into the tired, old "good or bad" argument. The OP asked for "Your Stories", not for your ability to regurgitate dubious research.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

I have to believe strength training helps. 
For example, I am much better on the flats than the hills, so I'm thinking STRENGTH is what's missing. 
I don't know if strength training does anything to lactate threshold or not, but I guess that it surely increases my potential LT if I strength train AND endurance train. So I would expect by strength training in the off season, my capability for LT is higher when I start cycling training. I don't think you can do both at the same time? Thoughts?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

evs said:


> I'm just trying to understand this runabike...
> 
> "I'd start out higher reps, 3x10-12 at 15rm or whatever it's called and progress to 4-5 reps by Feb."
> 
> Can you explain that a little better. Maybe it's just me. Usually it's the weight times the rep like 100x12 for 3 sets. Where you only doing 3 reps then going up to 4 or 5 reps per set? What is 15rm? Please try to articulate your thoughts better please. It sounds like you didn't have a good coach but it's not clear.


I've never heard of anyone ever giving the weights x the reps x sets. Who on Earth would describe every single weight for every lift they were doing? 

3 sets of 12 repetitions at a weight I could do for 15 repetitions. 

Progressing to 3 sets of 5 repetitions at a weight I could do 6-7 times (or something, I don't recall exactly). 

I guess the earlier reps were to build muscle and tendon strength so that I could do the heavier reps later on with less risk of injury. 

Currently the trend (in running at least, if not more) is high weight, low reps to build strength without weight gain/muscle growth. 

To my understanding, that was similar to what I was doing. I was a teenager at the time, and had never done weights before that point and haven't done since, so I'm recounting as accurately as I remember. 

And that coach took me from a 4 to a 1 in three seasons, and had a number of other 1s and pros, so if I implied he was in any way a bad coach, then that was certainly unintentional. I think just the opposite.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

SpeedNeeder said:


> I have to believe strength training helps.
> For example, I am much better on the flats than the hills, so I'm thinking STRENGTH is what's missing.
> I don't know if strength training does anything to lactate threshold or not, but I guess that it surely increases my potential LT if I strength train AND endurance train. So I would expect by strength training in the off season, my capability for LT is higher when I start cycling training. I don't think you can do both at the same time? Thoughts?


Strength helps you on the flats, too. How are you when riding at 25+ mph? Can you maintain it for a good while? That requires quite a bit of strength as well. That's the beauty of powermeters and it simply eliminates the doubt. Are you not so good on long hills (power at or slightly above threshold) or shorter, 5-6 min hills (Vo2max) or punchy, steep climbs (anaerobic capacity)? Determining that can help you figure out which workouts to target to meet the demands. 

The problem in cycling is that it's never about the maximum force/wattage you can generate. The problem is how long you can sustain a high enough wattage. 

I wore my hrm in the weight room one time and was super surprised at how high my hr was (over 85%). Due to the way I rotated from one machine or lift to another, my hr stayed elevated for almost an hour at a time. So there's certainly a cardio-vascular effect. I just never felt it ever translated to cycling. And why would it? That's specificity at its core. When I'm riding at lt then I'm using particular muscles in a particular way that differs from when I'm running or swimming or lifting or anything. So I'm only going to get better at those extended lt efforts by performing cycling specific workouts at or near those particular intensities.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

vetboy said:


> Except research demonstrates that cycling requires very little muscular force, especially when compared to weight lifting. Therefore, your ability to tolerate *sustained* hard efforts has very little to do with your muscular strength, and a lot to do with your ability to ride above your lactate threshold - and weight lifting will not help in that arena.


That's why I also referenced joint strength, which most certainly does have an effect. Research also suggests that weight training increases efficiency of the muscles and thus increases aerobic output. 

Honestly, I don't care what research suggests, there's a benefit from doing something other than just riding a bike and doing other things like resistance training, injury prevention is the big one for me. Doing something like cycling that is a limited range of motion for long periods of time without doing something to balance out the musculature can lead to injury. If one muscle set is significantly stronger than the other then the joint becomes less stable and range of motion and/or flexibility is sacrificed.

How to Fix Muscle Imbalance | Training | EXOS Knowledge | EXOS formerly Core Performance


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

runabike said:


> I've never heard of anyone ever giving the weights x the reps x sets. Who on Earth would describe every single weight for every lift they were doing?


People who do sports that focus strength/power. That's how we did weight lifting in college track (thrower) and football.

Example:

Exercise: Bench press
Sets: 5
set 1: 150 lbs x 10 reps
set 2: 175 lbs x 8 reps
set 3: 200 lbs x 5 reps
set 4: 225 lbs x 5 reps
set 5: 240 lbs x 5 reps


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I spent much of the offseason doing a variety of kettlebell workouts.

Consequently, as of the early season so far, I've seen a large increase in short term power (<30 seconds). In fact, I've put up numbers actually close to my bests at a very early point in the season.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

.....


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## oldskoolm4 (Mar 14, 2009)

I'm in the gym almost as much as I am on the bike, especially in winter months. I enjoy lifting, so it works well for me. Since I got back into going atleast four days a week, I'm able to ride comfortable much longer. Having a strong core has really helped with maintaining a proper posture on the bike, even after hours in the saddle. I've became an all around stronger rider, and I notice I recover faster. To me, there is plenty of benefits to adding weight training to cycling. 

I mix it up a bit. I'll go several weeks to a month doing 5x5 (mostly winter months when riding outside isn't ideal) with high volume. I'll do that and throw in dropsets once a week to change it up. Your big compound lifts really help get a base if your just starting out. After a month or so of 5x5 with high volume, I'll do 4x10 (four sets x 10 reps). I won't be racking the weights as high as I would in a 5x5 program. Mixing it up like this has helped me to keep progressing. I like to hit each muscle group twice a week. 

I will say that once the weather is better and the days get longer, I don't spend as much time doing leg lifts because I'd much rather be on the bike.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

IHEEYA, 
I'm in the gym now. It's about 10 degrees out and dropping. I envy all the socal folk for their awesome riding weather. But then again I wouldn't get any lifting in and would be riding all the time. Yup, My batteries are charged and ready to go. 

"I will say that once the weather is better and the days get longer, I don't spend as much time doing leg lifts because I'd much rather be on the bike."


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Disclaimer: we have long cold winters for 4-4.5 months with some riding possible on weekends, xc skiing season is typically 14-16 weeks long

There are three anecdotal evidences from my road and xc experience:

For most of the time I never did any strength training. One winter long time ago I did a lots of jumping squats, toe raises and hamstring exercises with rubber bands. After 13 weeks of such training I was able to push a much harder gear although with slower rpms. No timing though.

This one is with timing. Four years ago I started doing squats, half of body weight, reps - to failure, one set, typically after short weekday rides and during off-season after trainer workouts. After a couple of months I felt that it got easier to ride short wall-like climbs and there finaly was some punch in my sprinting that I had never-never-never had before. We've got here a steep off-road climb, approx 200m long. My PB there was 1:37-1:38. After regular squatting, I was able to fly up there in 1:18, No kidding!

Last year I raced I had a crappy winter with little training but I kept doing squats as a part of my tiny weight training programme, half body-weight, 25 reps per set, up to 8 sets. During a road season opener, I got really really dropped and was picked up by two wiser guys who had been dropped earlier. We rode ~35 km together, I was hardly able to hold their wheel and my shifts were slower. When it came down to an upill finish sprint, I churned pedals a bit and won the sprint with flying colours to the amazement of my companions.


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

To sum up: 

I've never been a fan of heavy weights. Well, I have spent 7 months lately in a gym, heaving heavy weights under the guidance of a venerable powerlifter (Nationals champ) but this is not my cup of tea after all. 

Typically coaches (on the Internet, again) talk about 4-6-8-12 reps/set, and I've always loved these high reps sets close to failure. There is little reseach how it might work for cyclists but I have found one in the end. The workouts look like mine:

"In this Dutch-English inquiry, 14 experienced cyclists took part; six were placed in the experimental, explosive-training group, while the other eight athletes served as controls. The athletes were accustomed to training for about 12 to 13 hours per week and had been training at a high level for an average of five to eight years. During the experimental period, both groups averaged nine hours of training each week, but for the explosive group 37 percent of the total time consisted of explosive training. The control group carried out only typical endurance training.


The explosive sessions consisted of high-rep, low-resistance, quick-as-possible movements, with 30 reps per set for each exercise. Resistance was set so that the athletes could keep up their speed of movement during the first 20 reps of the 30-rep sets, with some power lost over the last 10 reps. If the athletes could finish an exercise with a constant rate of movement, the resistance was increased. Each explosive workout proceeded as follows:


(1) 10-minute warm-up on bike at 75 percent of heart-rate max


(2) Squats: 2 sets of 30 reps, with short recovery between sets


(3) Leg Presses: 2 sets of 30 reps, with short recovery


(4) Leg Pulls: 2 sets of 30 reps


(5) One-Leg Step-Ups: 2 sets of 30 reps


(6) 10 minutes of cycling at 75 percent of heart-rate max


After step 6 was completed, steps 2-6 were performed one more time.


As mentioned, the average power output achieved during a one-hour time trial increased significantly after just four weeks of training in the explosive group but failed to budge upward for the control, endurance-training-only cyclists. In addition, maximal power sailed upward after four weeks for the explosive fellows but was stagnant in the endurance riders. Interestingly enough, the explosive group cyclists were also able to maintain their "short-term performance" (the ability to cycle all-out for just 30 seconds) over a nine-week period, while the strictly endurance-trained athletes lost short-term performance power. Also, the explosive athletes tended to become more efficient over the study period (i.e., could complete more work per minute for each unit of energy expended), while the endurance cyclists did not. "

Cycling Research News


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

dot said:


> Cycling Research News


Interesting article.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

mm9 said:


> At the very least, a minimal amount of weight training for cyclists would seem to help keep bones strong over time.


Jogging would be far more effective than weight lifting if this is a concern.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

SpeedNeeder said:


> I have to believe strength training helps.
> For example, I am much better on the flats than the hills, so I'm thinking STRENGTH is what's missing.


There is a misconception that strength and power are the same thing. What you are lacking is power, not strength.



SpeedNeeder said:


> I don't know if strength training does anything to lactate threshold or not, but I guess that it surely increases my potential LT if I strength train AND endurance train. So I would expect by strength training in the off season, my capability for LT is higher when I start cycling training. I don't think you can do both at the same time? Thoughts?


Training that increases strength* won't improve your LT or potential LT. Indeed it's more likely the opposite will happen as it tends to dilute mitochondrial density and reduce muscle capillarisation. 

That is of course presuming that you actually are doing strength training, as to increase strength beyond initial neural gains requires muscle hypertrophy to occur.


* Strength is the maximal force generation capacity of a muscle or group of muscles.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

bikerector said:


> That's why I also referenced joint strength, which most certainly does have an effect. Research also suggests that weight training increases efficiency of the muscles and thus increases aerobic output.


In running perhaps, but not for cycling.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Anyway, since this is about anecdotes, and not about evidence, my own personal experience was leg strength training made my track cycling performance decline significantly, including my sprint performance - It just made me slower. Road race performance never improved either.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

This is not specific to cycling, but interesting!

Strength training sets: How many for best results? - Mayo Clinic


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Anyway, since this is about anecdotes, and not about evidence, my own personal experience was leg strength training made my track cycling performance decline significantly, including my sprint performance - It just made me slower. Road race performance never improved either.


At last, an RST guy worth to talk to. I know that all of you at RST hate weight training (Ric Stern is too very emphatic on cycingforums), but again, have you tried all of the approaches including the last one I posted?  This kind of training (25 reps or more, to failure) doesn't have anything with strength training. isn't it anaerobic power? I know that you say it may or ever better be done on a bike but nonetheless, off-season is the time to be OFF the bike, isn't it?

I know that my uphill record is a study of one, but that makes me really wonder how could that happen 

I also won't leave the point that there are those who don't have access either to indoor track or clean roads in winter like most of cyclists in my country for 4-5 months. 

Also I wonder why xc skiers who train for 7 months without snow and only imitate their movements as close as possible do not go to Australia or Argentina in June and keep training without snow and start climbing up to glaciers only in October. I wonder again, why australians who have access to snow practically all year round, June-October in Australia and October-March in Europe/America where all WC races happen, do not have any good skiers. Top australian skiers like the Watsons won't be able to win a local race here although most amateurs spend only 15-17 weeks on snow.

I know that some xc ski teams ocassionally visit Australia or NZ in summer, but it doesn't look like it really helps to beat others.

One more thing: I cannot see noticeable difference in summer between people who run/ski in winter and who ride track/rollers/trainer in winter and who mix all things. People typically reach a certain level and stay at that level if they maintain their fitness in winter.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

interesting take on why lifting may be good....in relation to longer rides. Since this was just brought up, I thought it was relevant....

Strength trainingWeight training improves the resistance of muscle fibers and delays recruitment when riding. Weights or plyometrics will help you in the third hour of your big race. Put an emphasis on working your hip flexors and core — they fatigue first.

the whole article is here...

Improve your ability to go hard after hours of racing - VeloNews.com


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

evs said:


> Weight training improves the resistance of muscle fibers and delays recruitment when riding. Weights or plyometrics will help you in the third hour of your big race.


yes, this is one of the main reasons I started lifting heavier and incorporating plyos; apart from making the weight sessions shorter, it has noticeably cut down on my #1 limiter in long XC mountain bike races - before I really got the weight work in I'd cramp at 2 hours in just like clockwork. Nothing, not hydration, not more training volume, not any kind of electrolyte helped; even pickle juice only worked to a degree. 

Doing weighted squats, higher weight, lower reps is the only thing that seems to have made a breakthrough. plus a lot of jumping rope but I do those because I enjoy them.

doing the conventional wisdom of low weight, high reps never got me much of anywhere fwiw. Leg curl/press on a machine does zilch for me. But that's me and I hate the gym and can't stand to spend much more than 30-45 minutes on any kind of weights program which is why I mix it up with a lot of other crosstraining.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

dot said:


> At last, an RST guy worth to talk to. I know that all of you at RST hate weight training (Ric Stern is too very emphatic on cycingforums), but again, have you tried all of the approaches including the last one I posted?  This kind of training (25 reps or more, to failure) doesn't have anything with strength training. isn't it anaerobic power? I know that you say it may or ever better be done on a bike but nonetheless, off-season is the time to be OFF the bike, isn't it?


Don't know where you got the idea we hate weight training. All we would have said is to use weight training where appropriate (e.g. we've worked with world class kilo riders and track sprinters), but for many, it's just not appropriate, or the gains to be made pale when compared with more specific training.

You are right though, doing _weights _doesn't automatically imply doing _strength _training, but then I'm not really sure why you'd do non-strength weight training for anything other than vanity, or for general fitness/well being - all of which are fine of course, as I'm just talking about what's best for endurance cycling performance.

As for off-season. Most don't need much of an off-season. It's more a mental break than a physical one. Much depends on the individual and the nature of the racing and training they do. Too much time off the bike and you'll end up having to take too long simply to reclaim a basic fitness level, which could have been used to build a better starting fitness. If you can lift weights, you can also do work on a bike trainer.

Not sure what skiing has to do with anything. Elite level cyclists do travel to train in warmer climates all the time.


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> You are right though, doing _weights _doesn't automatically imply doing _strength _training, but then I'm not really sure why you'd do non-strength weight training for anything other than vanity, or for general fitness/well being - all of which are fine of course, as I'm just talking about what's best for endurance cycling performance.


Why do I need strength training if I don't need strength on a road/mountain bike? That's what you actually keep telling. Well, if I don't, then I wouldn't. I'd rather do strength/endurance than pure strength and since off-season favours non-cycling activities I might as well do it with weights otherwise I'd burn out.



> As for off-season. Most don't need much of an off-season. It's more a mental break than a physical one. Much depends on the individual and the nature of the racing and training they do. Too much time off the bike and you'll end up having to take too long simply to reclaim a basic fitness level, which could have been used to build a better starting fitness. If you can lift weights, you can also do work on a bike trainer.


Can't agree. The hardcore XC racing field locally is divided into those who turn skiers in winter and pure cyclists. Skiers typically don't ride/race bikes since October till late March or even early April (the last popular ski marathons in Russia are in late April). Pure cyclists do all kinds of off-season activity like winter riding,running,trainer-rollers,track,weights and occasional skiing. If a skier switches to cycling 3-4 wees prior to the first race (usually it's the last Sunday in April), then he's quite on par with pure cyclists even with those who went south for base training in late March/early April. My own (anectodal  ) experience confirms that skiing builds much better foundation for a good racing summer. It's a more intensive sport which raises intensity tolerance



> Not sure what skiing has to do with anything. Elite level cyclists do travel to train in warmer climates all the time.


Alhough skiing is more technical sport with two very different techniques to cope with, skiers spent most of their training time without snow, just doing basic training like xc running, weights, imitation, roller skating even cycling . I'm trying to emphasise that it's possible to do non-specific training during off-season and get out with the same benefits.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

_Strength endurance_ is an oxymoron.

I don't see many professional riders spend their entire winters XC skiing.

What you call pure cyclists, aren't all that pure by the sounds of it.

I'm not saying one can't get benefit from some form of cross training, but don't expect it to provide the same level of physiological benefit for cycling as cycling will.


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> _Strength endurance_ is an oxymoron.


anaerobic endurance



> I don't see many professional riders spend their entire winters XC skiing.


Because they have funds and time. If you don't then winter is winter, there is not much space to manouveur while it's freezing. 

I'd like to buy a better climate. Global warming? Bring it on!



> What you call pure cyclists, aren't all that pure by the sounds of it.
> 
> I'm not saying one can't get benefit from some form of cross training, but don't expect it to provide the same level of physiological benefit for cycling as cycling will.


It works for skiers. Elite have money and time but they don't rush it with training on snow.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

dot said:


> anaerobic endurance
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Non-sequitur

Just because some have limited opportunity to ride their bike outside for part of the year, it does not imply that doing something else is _more _beneficial than riding even for those that _can_ ride all year.

Don't get me wrong, if the choice were doing nothing for several months or to XC ski, then of course I'd suggest one XC ski. But if cycling performance development was the primary objective and you _could_ ride, then I'd suggest you ride.


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Non-sequitur
> 
> Just because some have limited opportunity to ride their bike outside for part of the year, it does not imply that doing something else is _more _beneficial than riding even for those that _can_ ride all year.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, if the choice were doing nothing for several months or to XC ski, then of course I'd suggest one XC ski. But if cycling performance development was the primary objective and you _could_ ride, then I'd suggest you ride.


sorry, you got me wrong. I drew a parallel between skiers, who are able to go skiing but are not in hurry and do training without skiing on snow (otherwise Australia and NZ could have made a little fortune out of elite skiers and biathletes flooding mountains), and cyclists who always have to opt for riding.

Is there any research backing specific training during off-season vs non-specific?


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

It helped me also with cramping when going long distances. I do the leg press and leg curl as well as squats and calf raises on other days. I always follow up a lifting session with some pedaling on the trainer to try and keep the legs loose. It has helped my hamstring and calf from not cramping. I don't know if I was showing preference over one leg over the other but when I'd get out to 5 hours on the road I'd be fighting a twinge or full blown lock up cramp that made me cry for my mama. The lifting has helped me ride stronger when I hit that time. The last few years I've been riding much stronger when I hit that time zone during a long ride. The only thing I've changed is adding leg workouts with weights in to my routine. Good one LFR on skipping rope. Can you do crossovers? :thumbsup:


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

This is just like the "cycling to lose weight" debacle.
Thank you thank you thank you Alex Simmons. Like
SDeer a beacon of truth amid the murky fog.


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## WeakSister (Oct 30, 2009)

You detractors are a sad, pathetic group. Not because your opinion is different from mine, but because you seem to have unlimited time and energy to go through threads just for the excuse to profess your frustration with the subject matter. As I have a life, I don't waste my time reading through threads I don't care for, let alone making snarky, superior replies. What did you sad souls do before the internet?

People are sharing their own experiences here, which you think are invalid. You prefer "nine subjects tested over 12 weeks" type research. FWIW, there seems to be just as much research supporting weight-training as not.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

WeakSister said:


> You detractors are a sad, pathetic group. Not because your opinion is different from mine, but because you seem to have unlimited time and energy to go through threads just for the excuse to profess your frustration with the subject matter. As I have a life, I don't waste my time reading through threads I don't care for, let alone making snarky, superior replies. What did you sad souls do before the internet?
> 
> People are sharing their own experiences here, which you think are invalid. You prefer "nine subjects tested over 12 weeks" type research. FWIW, there seems to be just as much research supporting weight-training as not.


Far be it for anyone to bring some evidence to the table.

As for the _body of evidence_, I'd say it's still equivocal to slightly negative wrt weights and endurance cycling performance. 

Yes there are some studies that claim benefit (more don't, or don't when you actually examine the data beyond the abstract), but I recommend people examine the data closely, rather than solely rely on the abstract or author's conclusion. The only studies I'm aware of that claim a benefit come from the same data collection and author, and did not compare groups with same workload (the intervention group did more work), and they did not compare with a group using known effective forms of on-bike training such as intervals of various types.

And yes, everyone responds differently, nor is everyone seeking the same thing, experience the same levels of interest or motivation for various forms of exercise.

Far be it from me to dissuade anyone from doing what they like doing. Anecdotes are fine, but one needs to expect such anecdotes will typically involve personal bias and belief on physiological outcomes of a particular training intervention, when the real reasons likely lie elsewhere.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

dot said:


> sorry, you got me wrong. I drew a parallel between skiers, who are able to go skiing but are not in hurry and do training without skiing on snow (otherwise Australia and NZ could have made a little fortune out of elite skiers and biathletes flooding mountains), and cyclists who always have to opt for riding.


Ah, OK, my apologies I misinterpreted. So the argument is that athletes in another sport unrelated to cycling, stop training for long periods and still perform well. How do we know whether they would or would not have performed better if they didn't stop training?



dot said:


> Is there any research backing specific training during off-season vs non-specific?


There are studies looking at "cross-training" (don't ask me to locate them, I'll let others do some searching) but none that examine skiing and cycling specifically that I know of.

Usually it's running / swimming / cycling / rowing (all aerobic endurance training), and in all cases the conclusion is that sport specific training yields superior results, but that the performance differences from cross training is less pronounced for recreational/general population level athletes than for athletes at the elite level.

IOW the higher up the competitive curve you go, the more specificity matters. Or alternatively, if you are at a modest level of performance, then doing something is generally better than nothing.

They do note that the use of cross training is more about:
- psychological benefit
- potential to deal with over training by changing the specific loads
- fitness maintenance when injury that impedes one particular form of exercise

All of which are legitimate reasons to do other forms of exercise. Most of us are not robots, and we all respond differently to various stimulus, physical and psychological. So if you are struggling mentally, a change might be the perfect thing for you.

Some use cyclocross for this. Me, I used to go to the velodrome as my cross training period when the road season had been longish.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Far be it from me to dissuade anyone from doing what they like doing. Anecdotes are fine, but one needs to expect such anecdotes will typically involve personal bias and belief on physiological outcomes of a particular training intervention, when the real reasons likely lie elsewhere.


^^ this.

tbh as someone who's done some basic coaching for collegiate athletes, and who has done a number of different coaching programs over the last 27 years' worth of bike racing, I would be the first one to evaluate myself as "borderline uncoachable" owing to my supremely ADHD approach towards regimented training programs. My new coach "gets it", probably because he's a mountain biker with the same philosophy. In the past six weeks alone he's raised my FTP from ~165 to ~178 (and before you laugh at those numbers, realize that I'm short, small, old and female and that also represents 4 seasons of post-major-injury JRA and unfocused sort-of-training). And he's actually got me riding the trainer regularly and doing structured workouts (because our weather and my work schedule both suck), which to be frank has never happened in the entire history of my bike racing. Which all things considered could be the real reason behind my performance improvement, but since the way he's been structuring workouts is probably the sports science equivalent of coating a kid's dose of medicine in chocolate syrup, then whatever.

His philosophy is "the best workout is the one you'll actually do". If it's jumping rope and doing 20 minutes of heavy lifting on strength days and skate skiing or ice skating when it's too windy or snowy to ride the bike for 3+ hours outside, then whatever, tho it does seem to be working.

I agree that you're going to get bias on these answers, but the OP asked for "stories", which is pretty much begging for workout anecdotal chat-filter. Maybe he just wants to mix it up a little. Evidence and research is valuable as well (I work in the research arm of big pharma, so I'm all about data!).

Denigrating someone else's program that is demonstrably working for them (please note: I'm not saying Alex is doing this, however others on the thread have gone down that road) seems like an exercise in futility to me. At best it's concern trolling and otherwise it's just being a jerk on the internet; something we could all do with less of.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Going OT, well since we were talking snow/ice/skiing and cross training for cycling, I noted this recent item on ice cycling:

In The News: Iditarod rider smashes course record - VeloNews.com


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## davecm203 (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't want to get into the argument of for\against weight training. Just a word of advice. Don't get carried away with a leg workout two days before long mountain ride even if the ride is a fun ride. Not that I've ever done anything like that.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Going OT, well since we were talking snow/ice/skiing and cross training for cycling, I noted this recent item on ice cycling:
> 
> In The News: Iditarod rider smashes course record - VeloNews.com


Eszter Horanyi is a personal friend and former training partner and has raced the Iditarod bike race. She has commented on her blog that the conditions for this year's race have been unprecedented; they've had very little snow and record temperatures which have made the course record fast. She has been watching with interest as her record, one that had originally been anticipated to stand for a very long time, was due to be shattered as well.

circling back to the topic at hand, something you'll appreciate Alex -- Eszter has also made the observation that the recent record shattering cycle of the past 5 years' worth of ultra racing (e.g. hers and Jefe's and Jesse Jakomait's course records in the CTR and Tour Divide and Iditarod bike events, etc...) have as much to do with actual seriously fit bike racers taking an interest and a correspondingly scientific approach into the training methodology for ultra event racing as it does with things like GPS technology and tracking and improvements in bike tech and whatnot. 

Well, and at the end of the day it's not just scientific training, it's also having the mental fortitude to endure in wet shoes and dirty chamois for 18 hour shifts with 2 hours' worth of sleep whilst remembering to eat correctly and practice good camp hygiene to avoid getting eaten by grizzly bears, so there's that.


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Ah, OK, my apologies I misinterpreted. So the argument is that athletes in another sport unrelated to cycling, stop training for long periods and still perform well. How do we know whether they would or would not have performed better if they didn't stop training?


they don't stop, they train like hell, their volumes are generally the highest among endurance sports. Except for weight training/xc running/cycling/roller skating there is also imitation, a real killer workout - jumping up a hill with poles.



> There are studies looking at "cross-training" (don't ask me to locate them, I'll let others do some searching) but none that examine skiing and cycling specifically that I know of.
> 
> Usually it's running / swimming / cycling / rowing (all aerobic endurance training), and in all cases the conclusion is that sport specific training yields superior results, but that the performance differences from cross training is less pronounced for recreational/general population level athletes than for athletes at the elite level.


I know that kind of studies but that's not the right type. I'm afraid there won't be any. Only adectodal evidence, watching local racing field and knowing who did what in winter.

As for typical cross-training, I have done my own study of one for two months, when I ran twice a week and ride a bike twice a week. It was really fine for shorter distances, I was always fresh and did exceptionally well in a 30-min relay leg but I couldn't cope with a 100km MTB marathon. For the first two hours I was fine but then I blew.

As for weights again, I had some consistent winters with regular winter riding and various interval trainer workouts but my best time trialing time and my best ever XC race were after a winter on rollers/trainer complemented with fast high reps squats. What would I think after that?


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

Gonna weigh in. Please don't rip me apart 

I'm a high-schooler and for my PE class I'm in weight training. Personally, I enjoy weight lifting a lot (I exercise all muscles, not just legs - that'd be just weird, imo... not that fast that I have to be light as possible). Obviously, I'm more in-shape overall. Also, Craig Alexander once said "The more you experience pain, the more you realize you're in control of it." I'm not saying that I lift weights as a sort of sadistic thrill, but I do love the feeling of pushing through a particularly heavy load. Helps to have companions w/ you, too.

Haven't seen the effect on my cycling yet, but it seems obvious that, if you do weight training, it'll help, at the very least, explosive efforts. In other words, I can't see how lifting weights wouldn't help you push the pedals harder. And that's what it's about, right? 

Obviously, it won't affect endurance, but for instantaneous output, I don't see how anyone could say it doesn't help. But maybe I'm wrong. Also, I'm able to spin cadences of 125 with ease, product of junior gearing (kudos to USAC for accomplishing their goal there).

Reply if you agree/disagree.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

The article I linked above from velonews and written by Trevor Connor is interesting because he's a national coach. It would be nice to hear from more coaches, pros, expros as to what their off season workouts are/were and why they went with that particular workout. It's definitely a hard thing to prove or disprove with so many variables. As stated above, I lift because I feel it helps. Not only on my long rides but when I'm doing faster shorter rides. When I need to put more power to the pedal when there is a surge or a few quick turns in the road and people are popping out of the corners fast and I need to jump on it a bit. I visualize a leg press, knowing if I can do that I should definitely be able to push over a pedal with some power. Maybe more riding would help instead of lifting. But since I'm not a pro and my time is limited I'm trying to get the most bang for my buck. Plus, I think it helps as I age. This has nothing to do with cycling but general over all health.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

Thanks for all the replies. It's an interesting area.


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## Nubster (Jul 8, 2009)

I don't need studies to tell me that all the work I've done over the winter which includes a lot of weight lifting (Olympic style stuff) has helped me be better on the bike. I get to experience it, not just read about how it does or doesn't work.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

Nubster, what type of lifts do you do. How many sets etc.... TIA


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## Nubster (Jul 8, 2009)

Basically I just do CrossFit at the moment. So the sets and weights vary from workout to workout. The place I workout at they like to do a lot of strength work so we do a lot of the Olympic lifts with emphasis on heavy squats. Then of course there's the other stuff too like box jumps, burpees, ect. that really get the legs fried.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

My coach is an ex-pro. He raced with the people that created trainingpeaks (Dirk Friel specifically mentioned). See my previous post(s) for the kind of things he has me doing.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

One problem with cycling all the time is that the quads develop more than the buttock. Cyclists have flatass butt! Now if more cyclists have a full figure butt, maybe we don't have to hear yall biatch about chamois feeling loose and like a diaper because your butt (if it weren't so flat) would be filling up that space  I'm hitting the squat rack and I don't care what anyone says!


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

TehYoyo said:


> Haven't seen the effect on my cycling yet, but it seems obvious that, if you do weight training, it'll help, at the very least, explosive efforts. In other words, I can't see how lifting weights wouldn't help you push the pedals harder. And that's what it's about, right?
> 
> Obviously, it won't affect endurance, but for instantaneous output, I don't see how anyone could say it doesn't help. But maybe I'm wrong. Also, I'm able to spin cadences of 125 with ease, product of junior gearing (kudos to USAC for accomplishing their goal there).
> 
> Reply if you agree/disagree.


Strength work is common for riders that seek to lift their instantaneous power, such as track sprint, track kilo and BMX riders. But even then, there's only so much strength needed. e.g. Chris Hoy squats less than the top women lifters.

As for being able to push the pedals harder, yep it will help with that, to an extent, but pushing harder isn't sufficient. It also needs to be done at speed, and that's the tricky bit. 

*Power is what matters*, and that's the combination of force and speed.

One can still become really strong, but still be slow.

e.g. I could (back when I had two legs) easily out squat Ryan Bayley (Aussie dual Olympic Gold medallist in match sprint/Keirin) but his peak power output was ~850-900W more than me. Consequently his 200m fly was also 2.5 seconds quicker.


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Strength work is common for riders that seek to lift their instantaneous power, such as track sprint, track kilo and BMX riders. But even then, there's only so much strength needed. e.g. Chris Hoy squats less than the top women lifters.
> 
> As for being able to push the pedals harder, yep it will help with that, to an extent, but pushing harder isn't sufficient. It also needs to be done at speed, and that's the tricky bit.
> 
> ...


OK, but weight training helps with force, does it not?

Are you saying that lifting weights is detrimental to leg speed?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

TehYoyo said:


> OK, but weight training helps with force, does it not?
> 
> Are you saying that lifting weights is detrimental to leg speed?


It helps with force at near zero speed but that does not automatically transfer to being able to apply increased force at speed. Unless you can increase force at high leg velocities, all the strength in the world is useless.


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

bikerector said:


> One reason I believe many cyclists on this forum mention that you should spend your time cycling instead of weight training is the assumption that you're probably not training most days of the week and thus sport specific would probably be the best. If you're training 6-7 days a week then it makes more sense to get more variety.


I would suggest otherwise, if you train 6-7 days/week, adding weights would probably be detrimental except for some bodyweight core exercises. If I'm able to ride 20 hours/week my muscles wouldn't stand any leg work except spinning. If I'm able to ride 3-5 hours/week three times a week and I have time for squats and jumps but not riding (they're easy to do while being with kids or doing house chores), that would definitely be beneficial.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

dot said:


> I would suggest otherwise, if you train 6-7 days/week, adding weights would probably be detrimental except for some bodyweight core exercises. If I'm able to ride 20 hours/week my muscles wouldn't stand any leg work except spinning. If I'm able to ride 3-5 hours/week three times a week and I have time for squats and jumps but not riding (they're easy to do while being with kids or doing house chores), that would definitely be beneficial.


Generally, when weights are applied, is when the cardio is being focused on more than the strength/power of legs. The idea would be to give the cardio a rest and stress the muscles, or, to focus on the muscles that the bike is not working/sressing. It would be like weight lifters doing lower body one day and upper the next day, stressing different systems at different times.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> It helps with force at near zero speed but that does not automatically transfer to being able to apply increased force at speed. Unless you can increase force at high leg velocities, all the strength in the world is useless.


Correct, but speed and motor unit recruitment are also partially neurological in nature. 

If your motor control programming simply can't recruit any more fibers, you don't have the potential to use those fibers at a higher cadence (also trained through motor control training/neuromuscular training.)

What's being left out if the neuromotor portion of the equation. You have to train your body to recruit an entire muscle (or in the case of an inhibited muscle, teach it to use/contract said muscle) before you can recruit an entire muscle faster and faster.


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## BruceBrown (Mar 20, 2011)

mm9 said:


> Who uses weight lifting for your cycling training and what results have you seen in regards to your cycling? Can you give a few specifics of your program also - #days each week, type of workouts etc. Thanks.


Yup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ocs_w8bs-w

Weight Training for Cyclists | FasCat Coaching :: Cycling Coach for all Cyclists

https://www.usacycling.org/encyclingpedia/encycstory.php?id=7089

Year-Round Strength Training for Cyclists | TrainingPeaks

4 Strength-Training Exercises to Boost Cycling Power | ACTIVE


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

BruceBrown said:


> Yup.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ocs_w8bs-w
> 
> ...


you definitely gonna get beaten up by RST guys...


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## BruceBrown (Mar 20, 2011)

dot said:


> you definitely gonna get beaten up by RST guys...


That's cool. I guess trainers in the US include weights - be it in a plan or coaching from Training Peaks, FasCat, etc... . I'm currently in my 2nd year using training guidance for mountain biking (Master's Age Category) from coach Lynda Wallenfels that includes the lifts. I'll let her argue all the BroScience issues. I'll let her credentials stand on their own merit. 

Me? I'll just do the day's training she prescribes.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

dot said:


> you definitely gonna get beaten up by RST guys...


There's no beating up to be done. 

We would also suggest lifting where it's appropriate and can lead to an improvement above and beyond what's possible via other means (and this is where you realise application of lifting is somewhat more limited) or when such other more productive means are not feasible to execute.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

unfortunately traditional "weight lifting in the gym" can reduce flexibility, which cyclist cannot afford to do. more importantly than working out in the gym, one might consider yoga for flexibility and/or pilates for core strength. added benny of those two disciplines is the ability to work on breathing and focus, both come in handy when the pain sets in.

cycling is more like a dance or ballet on pedals, not some meathead mashing them into the ground with gy-fukin-normous quads.

if one really has a hankerin for gymrat work, do whole body movements.....barbell dead lifts, barbell squats.....they tax the endocrine system more than isolated leg exercises. DL and squats also engage the core while jacking up test and GH the most out of all the other gym rat work .....and you all know that test and GH is a good thing, right?


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

> Power is what matters, and that's the combination of force and speed.


what matters in racing is POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO (however i do see your point) and the proper application of that ratio. cycling is no different. if you cant get the power down to the wheels, not setup correctly, not flexible enough, proper breathing, fuel....ect....oh, and dont forget the ability to make yourself small (reduce drag) and still be able to put the power down.....that falls under flexibility.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Rokh Hard said:


> what matters in racing is POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO (however i do see your point) and the proper application of that ratio. cycling is no different. if you cant get the power down to the wheels, not setup correctly, not flexible enough, proper breathing, fuel....ect....oh, and dont forget the ability to make yourself small (reduce drag) and still be able to put the power down.....that falls under flexibility.


That falls under "drafting." 

And power to weight ratio doesn't mean dick if you're tactically stupid.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Rokh Hard said:


> what matters in racing is POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO (however i do see your point) and the proper application of that ratio. cycling is no different. if you cant get the power down to the wheels, not setup correctly, not flexible enough, proper breathing, fuel....ect....oh, and dont forget the ability to make yourself small (reduce drag) and still be able to put the power down.....that falls under flexibility.


Of course the speed one is capable of riding at is a function of the supply (power) and demand factors (various resistance forces - air, gravity, rolling, drivetrain friction, inertia when accelerating), and how successful one might be comes down to all those factors plus how and when one chooses to use their power, plus skills, race craft etc etc.

My comment wasn't about those issues but rather was making clear the important physiological performance distinction between _strength _and _power_. 

IOW wrt cycling performance, what matters is power, not strength.


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Rokh Hard said:


> unfortunately traditional "weight lifting in the gym" can reduce flexibility, which cyclist cannot afford to do.


Being mediocre at flexibility I am in the opposite group. My exercises made me more flexible although I don't anything exceptional, base exercises but I do either mid rep/mid weight or high rep/low weight and body weight exercises close to failure - I use weights but it's definitely not strength training.

Funny side of things: I won't be able to make any adecdotal evidence worth anything, since I'm starting from such a low level at the moment that it's not possible to say if my way of doing things is helpful or detrimental.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

> Being mediocre at flexibility I am in the opposite group. My exercises made me more flexible although I don't anything exceptional



are you kidding me?!?! beginning a workout/exercise program.....you ARE exceptional!!! be that!! 

IF you lift, balance it out with some flexibility training....ultimately, muscles that are thrashed become tight, and end up restricting movement.....at the least they restrict movement to the range of motion relative to that specific lift/movement. this is not good for the cyclist.

consider putting that training into cycling specific training....as in form, movement, technique, with a coach. just as one doesn't walk into a gym and start lifting stuff without proper guidance, form, technique....same goes for cycling. no different. 


cycling is keen on efficiency.....it is amazing to look at lyrca clad riders on $10,000 bikes and their form is.....well....."less than efficient" :mad2:


money well spent....get with a bike club, find a referral for a good coach and let him/her guide you...in the long run your body, your times and your fun factor will thank you!


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Rokh Hard said:


> are you kidding me?!?! beginning a workout/exercise program.....you ARE exceptional!!! be that!!


sorry, missed your point except for overexcitement.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

dot said:


> sorry, missed your point except for overexcitement.



then you got the point! :thumbsup:


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

Rokh Hard said:


> then you got the point! :thumbsup:


Ok. My point was that light weights and body weight exercises (I do: pull-ups, push-ups, dips, sit ups/captain's chair, back extentions, all with full range motions) actually improved my flexibility which probably was not quite good for starters.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

dot said:


> Ok. My point was that light weights and body weight exercises (I do: pull-ups, push-ups, dips, sit ups/captain's chair, back extentions, all with full range motions) actually improved my flexibility which probably was not quite good for starters.


increasing flexibility is good, keep it up! :thumbsup:


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

There is a short update on weight training and cycling: 

I'm only seven weeks on a bike, did two longish group rides (> 3hr long) for last two sundays. I noticed that in the group with more or less equally strong riders who make me suffer on their wheel on flats and descents I keep dropping them on any climb, even 2% and 300 metres long (we hardly have any climbs longer then a kilometre).

I'm the heaviest rider in the group and have done only small amount on anaerobic work on a bike - a couple of true anaerobic sessions and some anaerobic work on sunday long rides. Most of my anaerobic work were squats/toe raises.

One guy in the group is a fan of heavy weights, he pumped his legs all winter and trains quite consistently, he's stronger on flats but he gets dropped too.


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## phil155 (Apr 25, 2014)

I come from strength training background and must say that the strength built during that time does seem to have carried over to some degree. Now this may or may not be relative to this thread as I was lifting seriously for 18 years as opposed to a few weeks in the off-season. The longer time I spent lifting may have set a higher normal set point in terms of natural strength.

With that I do find climbing comes more naturally to me and for a climber I'm not small (153)


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

mm9 said:


> At the very least, a minimal amount of weight training for cyclists would seem to help keep bones strong over time.


I always wonder about the bone density discussion. 

Why would cyclists have lower bone density than the population at large?


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## vmps (Feb 15, 2013)

Local Hero said:


> I always wonder about the bone density discussion.
> 
> Why would cyclists have lower bone density than the population at large?


Extended exercise depleting the minerals with no compensating stress to signal them to rebuild. Same basic reason pregnancy lowers bone density in women.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

vmps said:


> Extended exercise depleting the minerals with no compensating stress to signal them to rebuild. Same basic reason pregnancy lowers bone density in women.


Are you saying cycling makes me the same as a pregnant woman???


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

SpeedNeeder said:


> Are you saying cycling makes me the same as a pregnant woman???


You might want to put TP on the seat just in case?


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## vmps (Feb 15, 2013)

SpeedNeeder said:


> Are you saying cycling makes me the same as a pregnant woman???


Do you have a small human in your abdomen? If yes, did your bike put it there? You may want to try a wider saddle.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

vmps said:


> Extended exercise depleting the minerals with no compensating stress to signal them to rebuild. Same basic reason pregnancy lowers bone density in women.


Yeah, running is great for increasing bone density because of the repetitive stress. Of course the higher impact nature of running also has it's draw backs... Lifting for a cyclist or other low-impact sport participant will offset that to some degree. But plyometrics will also make a big "impact" on increasing bone density. And it has real practical applications to cycling fitness. So does lifting, don't get me wrong, but Plyos translate to so many aspects so directly, like explosive acceleration, building the musculature for staying off the saddle when needed for longer periods, and simply for conditioning high heart rate spikes. If you add Plyos just be sure to allow appropriate recovery time... They will beat you up pretty good.


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## the_rouleur (May 3, 2014)

Mark Cavendish hitting the gym

Mark Cavendish hits the weights in bid to claim Yellow Jersey for the first time | Mail Online

Cavendish, who is 5ft 9ins and 70kg, has been doing squats and working on his core stability as his low position on the bike is less of an advantage than it once was.


'With the aerodynamic advancements in the bikes and the helmets now those big strong guys, like Griepel and Kittel, are getting a bigger advantage than I am, percentage-wise, compared to their body mass,' he said.
'I thought I'd better get a bit stronger because my aerodynamic ability is not going to help me as much as it used to.'


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