# Chris Horner



## slamy (Mar 15, 2004)

Damn, watch this video. He won't be able to finish the tour he must have had a serious concussion. He has no idea where he is and he finished the stage. 

http://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-france/stage-reports/ch-teauroux-cavendish-makes-it-2


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

slamy said:


> Damn, watch this video. He won't be able to finish the tour he must have had a serious concussion. He has no idea where he is and he finished the stage.
> 
> http://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-france/stage-reports/ch-teauroux-cavendish-makes-it-2


I am surprised they let him back on the bike. They should not have let him continue. He is lucky to finish in that state. I doubt he will continue racing tomorrow.


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## slamy (Mar 15, 2004)

I just read he has a broken nose too. Yeah he should not have been on a bike.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

who did the eval at the crash - that dude looks like he was dancing with glowsticks all night.


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## fontarin (Mar 28, 2009)

Yeah, I don't think they should have let him back on his bike, but he might have seemed better when being examined earlier on. Looks like he's out, unfortunately.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

Sad. No way he's riding tomorrow.


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## arkitect (Apr 25, 2011)

Sad and very, very scary! I hope he is ok and recovers


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## Rsix (Oct 18, 2005)

WOW. Just watched that video. I'd be shocked if he didn't have a serious concussion.


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## tconrady (May 1, 2007)

As someone who's had 4 concussions, that video just made me cringe. I hope he's ok but there's no way he'll be cleared to ride tomorrow.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

Whomever cleared him should probably be canned tonight. No way an athlete should be put out there in that condition.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

They should not have let him back onthe bike - the sad thing is that currently they don't really have a good eval proceedure for determining if you are cognative enough to continue - to make it to the finish the focus is on getting you back on the bike and moving as fast as possible.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

Rsix said:


> WOW. Just watched that video. I'd be shocked if he didn't have a serious concussion.


Um, yeah, he has a concussion. They'll be working him up for more serious head injuries.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

32and3cross said:


> They should not have let him back onthe bike - the sad thing is that currently they don't really have a good eval proceedure for determining if you are cognative enough to continue - to make it to the finish the focus is on getting you back on the bike and moving as fast as possible.


Why would you say that? A mini-mental would have picked up Horner easily as having a concussion.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

No way he continues, even if he wants to. Rides 25km without knowing how far he rode, what happened, where he is? He'd better not be allowed to. Terrible.


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## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

ugh. this is just terrible. bad break for my fav' rider in the race. he sounded absolutely horrible.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Henry Porter said:


> Why would you say that? A mini-mental would have picked up Horner easily as having a concussion.


Radioshacks new motto. safety third 
(yes stolen from the pyro, and no the tdf doctor has nothing to be proud of here)


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

That really sucks. He was so on spot for fitness this year. RS has been killed. At least they now know who they are all working for, though Klodi won't be able to hand with contador, cadel, or Andy. Maybe if he continues he can pick up a stage win.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Henry Porter said:


> Why would you say that? A mini-mental would have picked up Horner easily as having a concussion.


How long does that take though?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Outrageous that he was allowed back on the bike.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

SilasCL said:


> How long does that take though?


10 minutes for the whole thing but I would have first done the serial 7's and it would have been obvious his concentration was shot to hell. That probably would have been about a minute at most. He also would have failed the orientation portion which doesn't take long at all.

I won't guess at what else he would have failed but those two should have been done and would have indicated what was going on unless it was something like a epidural hematoma with it's lucid interval.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

I would make a guess that he wasn't examined. He probably just got back on his bike and continued on. It's what he's trained himself to do after all. Subconscious took over and off he went.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Henry Porter said:


> 10 minutes for the whole thing but I would have first done the serial 7's and it would have been obvious his concentration was shot to hell. That probably would have been about a minute at most. He also would have failed the orientation portion which doesn't take long at all.
> 
> I won't guess at what else he would have failed but those two should have been done and would have indicated what was going on unless it was something like a epidural hematoma with it's lucid interval.


I'm thinking the best way would just be to see if he's A&Ox4. Judging by the video, he's 2 at best.

Then again, the rules of emergency medicine don't really seem to apply out on the road as others have said.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Terrible. Shack and their luck at the Tour hasn't really been there.


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

They seemed to examine Jani pretty thoroughly the other day, and in the video Bruyneel even mentions right after the crash he had no idea where he was or anything. I haven't seen the stage, but am really bummed cause lame or not I was cheering for Chris to have a good Tour and hopefully a top-5. Major bummer for him.

It's clear right off that he's got a concussion from the repetitive questions. I've only had first hand experience with one from my hubby after a mountain bike crash and the question loop only lasted 30 minutes, but he can't remember much from that day at all now. 

They'll likely keep Horner for eval overnight since his loop seemed to have lasted a lot longer than 30 minutes!

Hope he heals up and maybe gets a shot at the Vuelta.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Henry Porter said:


> Why would you say that? A mini-mental would have picked up Horner easily as having a concussion.



Because the road side assement prolly when something like this: Someone asked him if he was ok he said something they stuck a bike in his hands and off he went.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> Because the road side assement prolly when something like this: Someone asked him if he was ok he said something they stuck a bike in his hands and off he went.


sorry for the language: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNXYV-9gX5A

After 2.5 minutes he is still lying without moving.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

It really is something that the docs or staff could have noticed, does not take much really. All athletic docs are taking more of a proactive approach with concussions at all levels. As coaches we are asked to err on the side of caution and any of the test/symptoms keeps the athlete out of competition and they have to pass may tests before allowed to return. 
That race doc in the car should have noticed when Chris was getting attention while on the bike. Bruyneel should have noticed when talking over radio - actually he did, and mentioned it in the interview. 
Sad and scary...


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Poor guy really got his bell rung. Let's not forget this is a life and death business. A bit amusing, actually, that he got up, finished, just on instinct, or habit maybe.


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

den bakker said:


> sorry for the language:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNXYV-9gX5A
> 
> After 2.5 minutes he is still lying without moving.


Thanks for the link. UTTER CHAOS!!! Crazy. Couldn't see much of Horner at all, but wow. Huge mess there.


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## ilmaestro (May 3, 2008)

I hate to see any team this badly effected by crashes. Poor luck indeed. Wish Chris a fast recovery.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)




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## aaric (Mar 10, 2011)

Damn...fugly.

But, on the other hand, they had 4 guys down, bike/equipment swaps and repair, and are in an event where seconds mean everything...

Real hard to make that snap decision if there's not serious readily apparent indications of imminent problems. And even after you make that decision, real hard to convince the athlete to abandon when he doesn't think that anything happened.

I'd bet Horner was just standing around looking confused in the chaos, and somebody handed him a bike...he's going to grab it and ride, obviously.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

den bakker said:


> sorry for the language:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNXYV-9gX5A
> 
> After 2.5 minutes he is still lying without moving.


Looks like two people in those blue medical vests are over there with Horner at the 2:30 mark. Not sure if they are doctors or EMTs or what, but there is one on the ground that appears to be talking to him.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> Poor guy really got his bell rung. Let's not forget this is a life and death business. A bit amusing, actually, that he got up, finished, just on instinct, or habit maybe.


Since there is no apparent life threatening damage, it is a bit amusing. If he had been bleeding inside his skull, then rode 20k to the finish it would have likely made his condition much worse and possibly contributed to his demise.

Given what we currently know about the situation, it was a grave error to let him continue racing.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

Agreed that whoever let him continue riding should be gone.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

SilasCL said:


> Since there is no apparent life threatening damage, it is a bit amusing. If he had been bleeding inside his skull, then rode 20k to the finish it would have likely made his condition much worse and possibly contributed to his demise.
> 
> Given what we currently know about the situation, it was a grave error to let him continue racing.


While the likelihood is extremely low, he's not confirmed out of the possibility of mortality until imaging demonstrates there isn't significant bleeding. See Natasha Richardson.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

Wow, that was really scary to see how unaware he was. I hate seeing him leave the tour since he seemed to have been on such good form.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Timely story:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pro-cycling-plagued-by-head-injuries


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Hope he's okay.


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## Magsdad (Jun 29, 2005)

*An athlete's instinct....*

can be their greatest asset or worst nightmare. If Horner was able to get up, but didn't know where he was or what had happened, then its irresponsible to allow him to continue. I didn't see it, but did he ever make it back with other teammates? If one of my teammates rode up next to me and asked "what happened?" I think I would take more notice of it. What a shame. I was rooting for a good showing by Horner.

I hope he has a speedy recovery.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

Wow.... I have to add, he should have never been able to get back on the bike... 

I was pulling for him to make a good showing, sad.


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## superjesus (Jul 26, 2010)

Absolutely horrifying and sad. His will and instinct are incredible. Head injuries are no joke and exceptionally unpredictable. He could be completely recovered tomorrow, or he might never fully recover.

Here's to a speedy and complete recovery, Horner. Get well soon.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

*Versus extended coverage clip*

The VS extended coverage show began with a video clip of Horner walking to the ambulance after changing his jersey for a t-shirt. He was still completely confused, asking why he was going for medical help and whether he had completed the stage. Heart-wrenching stuff.


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## natrab (Jun 19, 2010)

The risk he took by getting back on his bike was a great one. After losing consciousness, the possibility of internal bleeding is a very real one. The doctors really shouldn't ignore that fact before putting him back on his bike where his heart rate and blood pressure will rise and cause more bleeding. We'd be a lot more unhappy if he was dead by the end of the rest.

However, what an impressive athlete to continue on after such a wreck and I'm very sad to see him go. Hopefully he will be back in form shortly.


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm amazed at how he managed to finish. I mean it's as if he was programmed to go to the end with only his subconscious doing the thinking. I guess these guys train so much their body just knows what to do. 

Hopefully it's nothing permanent. Good luck to him and his family.

In other sports when you have the risk of a concussion they pull you out and keep you under observation for a half hour or more. I can take time for the symptoms to show up. If they did this is a bike race like the TDF, a lot of guys would be out of it quick. I think the docs and team managers and racers would try to get the a racer like Horner back in the race quickly since he is a GC contender. Could a rule change to reduce racers who have major falls time loss be helpful? It would allow the docs to do a better evaluation.


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## BicycleBastard (Mar 5, 2011)

Im pissed. It doesnt matter if this is an American or any other rider, there is no way that a rider in that kind of condition should have been allowed to continue!

I blame his director sportif, his teammates and fellow riders, and the race organizers/race docs for allowing that to happen. I appreciate that they took the proper steps after he finished but I am shocked and pissed that not a single person around the man took enough notice of his condition to stop him from hurting himself even more. I just cant believe that not a single person was aware enough to stop him from riding! I mean was anyone around him as he came in? Did he hook up with other riders after getting back on his bike?

If I was a rider from another team and I had noticed his condition I would have been urging my team car and any other riders around us to help stop the guy and get him help! Cycling is a dangerous sport and thats simply the nature of things but wow. Levi Leipheimer said that they were going in excess of 75kph at the time of the crash, thats approximately 40mph! I would hope that this sort of incident inspires a change in the way the race docs and directors handle future crash victims. There should be more care taken to ensure the safety of a rider before he gets back on that bike.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

put me back on my bike.

the prestage interview he mentioned he talked to his mom and she said, "be careful." he chuckled and mentioned its nothing he can really control. i hate to see him go, but im pretty sure he shouldnt be allowed to walk around right now. i really hope there is no lasting damage.

good or bad ad for giro?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Dammit. Dammit dammit dammit. So sick of these crashes.

I was hoping for a stellar Tour for him. He's not getting any younger...

Heal up, Horner.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


>


this is normally funny, but it is also somewhat inappropriate, considering the context...


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## Bullvine (Sep 9, 2009)

That kinda made me sick to watch, I prey for a speedy recovery for Chris..


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## BicycleBastard (Mar 5, 2011)

Whats sick is the video of Horner going from the team bus to the ambulance. He is totally clueless and keeps asking if he finished or not. He says he doesnt understand whats wrong and why they are taking him to the hospital. I watched it once and thats all I could take of it.


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## mtrider05 (Aug 8, 2009)

The extended coverage Versus showed is scary stuff. I thought he may have just gotten up and started riding after the crash, but he is clearly laying in the ditch not moving. Wow. What a hardman to finish the stage.


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## scarecrow (Oct 7, 2007)

Versus coverage tonight had some comment from Craig Hummer who talked to the race doctor that was in the car. They talked to Horner and he said he wanted to continue and appeared to be aware that he was in a race etc. They assigned an ambulance to stay with him on the way in and to keep an eye on him. Hummer said that the doctor gave him some extra leeway because it was the biggest race of the year.

I think he might start tomorrow but when he has to go hard his head is going to hurt extremely bad with that concussion. That is what did Boonen in today. So many nasty crashes in the big races this year. The TDF is going to be won by whoever has the least amount of trouble this year.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Versus had Craig Hummer on at the post race coverage in the prime time coverage--

He had spoken with the attending race doctor--the decision was made to let him continue, but with an ambulance following to keep an eye on him. So it was less incompetent than some posts above have suggested. 

The team doctor also confirmed concussion, broken nose and a massive hematoma on one leg, but a clear CT scan.. He's in for the night for observation.

So they were concerned, just not enough to keep him from continuing to finish the stage...


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

scarecrow said:


> I think he might start tomorrow but when he has to go hard his head is going to hurt extremely bad with that concussion. That is what did Boonen in today. So many nasty crashes in the big races this year. The TDF is going to be won by whoever has the least amount of trouble this year.


According to the social media that his family is posting he's in the hospital overnight for observation, so no way he is starting tomorrow. Bummed for sure.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

*defense of the medical decision?*

In the wrap-up of the extended VS version, Craig Hummer reported that the race MD said that they assigned a vehicle to follow Horner to the end of the stage to watch for problems.

The astounding medical news in the segment was that the MDs at the hospital might approve Horner's return to the race tomorrow.

HTFU**2


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## ymerej (Sep 13, 2005)

Kinda F'd up that he's laying in the ditch left for dead and all the other riders are stepping over him scrambling around looking for their bikes, and he's just there slumped over, but hey what are you going do help him out to see if hes alive? Hell no!!! this is racing after all, every man for himself tell death.Sorry this did not go over well with me what happened to the gentleman's rule of conduct? they hold up for pee breaks and food as well as flats, but when A rider is left for dead in A ditch F him!!!


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

ymerej said:


> Kinda F'd up that he's laying in the ditch left for dead and all the other riders are stepping over him scrambling around looking for their bikes, and he's just there slumped over, but hey what are you going do help him out to see if hes alive? Hell no!!! this is racing after all, every man for himself tell death.Sorry this did not go over well with me what happened to the gentleman's rule of conduct? they hold up for pee breaks and food as well as flats, but when A rider is left for dead in A ditch F him!!!


I think is is a "fog of war" problem. The teams are seeing the same feed, and from that clip above, you can see the moto cameraman is following the Wigo story--is he going to get back on or not? After the first overhead shot where you can see CH and someone else in the ditch, most of the coverage is the carnage on the road.

Only after Wigo is clearly not going to continue (and most of the carnage is cleaned up) do you hear the commentators mention that there is still a RadioShack rider down--'oh, it's Chris Horner"---but I think from the road, he may not have been visible to the riders as he wasn't for the moto cameraman


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

KenS said:


> The astounding medical news in the segment was that the MDs at the hospital might approve Horner's return to the race tomorrow.


If something happens to him there will be one hell of a liability.

I posted my thoughts about Boonen in the crashtastic thread. Headaches, dizziness, vomiting, yet his DS lets him start the stage. WTF? Other riders complaining about him weaving all over the road and he still doesn't pull Boonen, he says its Tom's decision...I think that is a gross avoidance of responsibility by the DS.
My rider can't think straight, and is exhibiting signs of a concussion that any Boy Scout would recognise, but I'm going to let him make the decision whether or not to continue. That's pretty warped thinking.


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## superjesus (Jul 26, 2010)

The thing about concussions and post-concussion syndrome is that the problems aren't always immediately apparent, even with clear CT scans. Horner could wake up tomorrow feeling great, ready to ride like nothing happened, or he could have the most excruciating, nauseating, physically-crippling headaches of his life. There is no way to predict where in between the two extremes he will end up.

I follow the NHL fairly closely, and serious head injuries are somewhat common in that sport. Horner's behavior isn't entirely surprising given some of what I've seen in that sport. I've seen guys lie on the ice motionless after taking a head shot. The player passes the preliminary evaluation and the doc releases them to continue the game. Its's only later on, after the game and after the adrenaline of competition wears off that the symptoms set in. Healing might take two days, it might take a lifetime. Every case is different and there doesn't appear to be much of a pattern to it.

I hope Horner has a quick and complete recovery.


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## BicycleBastard (Mar 5, 2011)

paredown said:


> Versus had Craig Hummer on at the post race coverage in the prime time coverage--
> 
> He had spoken with the attending race doctor--the decision was made to let him continue, but with an ambulance following to keep an eye on him. So it was less incompetent than some posts above have suggested.
> 
> ...


This doesnt really make me feel any better about the whole incident. In that situation the doctor should have not allowed the rider to continue. If Horner turns out to be ok after the days stage then you allow him to continue to race the following days but a head injury of any kind is very often a matter of life and death. Just ask Liam Neeson. 

He crashed going at speeds of up to 40mph with nothing but a helmet to protect his head. The doctor cant be certain of internal hemorrhaging or even the severity of the head injury. In that case safety should always be first priority. Naturally if I had been in Horners shoes I would have wanted to finish the race but thats what competitors do. A rider at that level should want to finish, its the responsibility of those in charge to protect those competitors from more than just the obvious hazards, sometimes you have to protect them from themselves.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Poor Chris... Having had some bad concussions like that myself I wish him a speedy and full recovery. I guarantee he won't remember anything after the crash, including finishing, going to the hospital, etc when he wakes up tomorrow. 

It's amazing to me how the fundamentals of concussion assessment aren't being followed here. It would be VERY easy to institute a simple question protocol when a head injury is suspected. Some simple questions would be:

1) What's your name?
2) Where are you?
3) What day is it?
4) What team do you ride for?
5) What stage is this?

If you answer those 5 correct you're probably ok to at least keep riding. I guarantee Chris would have flunked this test.


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## superjesus (Jul 26, 2010)

DrSmile said:


> Poor Chris... Having had some bad concussions like that myself I wish him a speedy and full recovery. I guarantee he won't remember anything after the crash, including finishing, going to the hospital, etc when he wakes up tomorrow.
> 
> It's amazing to me how the fundamentals of concussion assessment aren't being followed here. It would be VERY easy to institute a simple question protocol when a head injury is suspected. Some simple questions would be:
> 
> ...


Yeah, but your questionnaire isn't really in the spirit of HTFU, now is it? 

My point being that despite all the neurological information available, it's only been the last few years that even a league like the NFL has begun using similar protocols to help protect its players. With a sport as steeped in tradition as cycling, I imagine it will be quite awhile before any such thing is adopted peloton-wide.


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## BicycleBastard (Mar 5, 2011)

Head injuries are no joke. You just dont mess around with someone who has suffered severe trauma to the brain. You take the safest course of action and be damned anything else. Professional fighters, NFL football players, European football players, race car drivers, so many of them have to deal with the consequences of these types of injuries later on in life and often the symptoms wouldnt be so bad if they hadnt been allowed to continue to play with the injury.

As an athlete you want to compete, you always want to continue and drive to the finish. As a society we push young kids into believing that at no time is it ok to give in. Thats just not true. I believe strongly in never giving up but I think that in cases such as this common sense must prevail and common sense says that a person with a head injury should not be put back into a competition where that injury might be worsened.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

BicycleBastard said:


> This doesnt really make me feel any better about the whole incident. In that situation the doctor should have not allowed the rider to continue. If Horner turns out to be ok after the days stage then you allow him to continue to race the following days but a head injury of any kind is very often a matter of life and death. Just ask Liam Neeson.
> 
> He crashed going at speeds of up to 40mph with nothing but a helmet to protect his head. The doctor cant be certain of internal hemorrhaging or even the severity of the head injury. In that case safety should always be first priority. Naturally if I had been in Horners shoes I would have wanted to finish the race but thats what competitors do. A rider at that level should want to finish, its the responsibility of those in charge to protect those competitors from more than just the obvious hazards, sometimes you have to protect them from themselves.



Amen, well said.. And, this is where they failed. Any head injury in competition needs to be thoroughly investigated with the series of tests that they all should be aware of. 

There is no more getting your bell rung. If an athlete fails any of the administered tests/questions they need to be pulled for testing at the hospital. There is just too much to risk....


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

paredown said:


> Versus had Craig Hummer on at the post race coverage in the prime time coverage--
> 
> He had spoken with the attending race doctor--the decision was made to let him continue, but with an ambulance following to keep an eye on him. So it was less incompetent than some posts above have suggested.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like the doctor is covering his own ass but he should be done. Google second-impact syndrome to see why.


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## Magsdad (Jun 29, 2005)

paredown said:


> Versus had Craig Hummer on at the post race coverage in the prime time coverage--
> 
> He had spoken with the attending race doctor--the decision was made to let him continue, but with an ambulance following to keep an eye on him. So it was less incompetent than some posts above have suggested.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but this is unacceptable. Another fall (which couldn't be stopped by 'watching' him) could be deadly.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Oh that is sad, seeing my fellow Oregonian crash at the TdF!
Oof.
Speedy recovery, bro!
Surely he won't be able to continue, right? I mean, with the obvious concussion, even if he "recovers" well overnight, hopefully somebody would step in and say "hey man, you can't continue".
Because if they only say "you _shouldn't_ continue", I'm guessing he would pick up where he left off!

Maybe Bruyneel didn't mispeak, maybe he really does fear that Chris WILL continue...?


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## RipTide (May 4, 2007)

Unless you were there, it is impossible to know how lucid he was after the crash. Maybe the video shows a guy who had a hard crash and had lots of narcotics in his system. I sound confused with strong pain meds on board too.


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

Wow, seeing him at the end of the stage was pretty scary. Versus showed him holding onto the Dr.'s car after he got going again and my first thought was why the hell wasn't he pulled off the road. It was obvious he was in no shape to be on a bike. Thankfully, he made it to the end of the stage but he was in pretty serious danger of falling and taking another shot to the head. I'm guessing the tour will implement some new rules regarding manditory withdrawl from competition if you are diagnosed with a concussion.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

RipTide said:


> Unless you were there, it is impossible to know how lucid he was after the crash. Maybe the video shows a guy who had a hard crash and had lots of narcotics in his system. I sound confused with strong pain meds on board too.


Really?


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

This really sux. I was so hoping that this would be Chris's year. The problem as I see it is that those in charge still have the old school mentality and that is the main problem with cycling. Resistance to change. Look no further than to Tom Simpson. People kept putting him back on his bike after each collapse until there was no getting up. Sports has to get rid of the old " are you hurt or are you injured?" routine. 

It makes me mad to hear crap like Willifred Peters, the director of Boonen, putting the onus to ride or not on him & then putting additional pressure on him to continue by saying, "if you quit, your tour is over." These guys need to wake up & take a hard look in the mirror. They need to take responsibility for their actions because they're the ones that are causing these crashes. With a field of 200 guys, the director's for each team are yelling into the radios telling their guys to get up to the front all at the same time because of something technical in the course that is coming up & they want their GC guys to avoid the danger. Well hello, 200 guys all at the same time trying to get up to the front. Wonder what's going to happen?? Things need to change but I don't see it happening anytime soon.


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

Red Sox Junkie said:


> Wow, seeing him at the end of the stage was pretty scary. Versus showed him holding onto the Dr.'s car after he got going again and my first thought was why the hell wasn't he pulled off the road. It was obvious he was in no shape to be on a bike. Thankfully, he made it to the end of the stage but he was in pretty serious danger of falling and taking another shot to the head. I'm guessing the tour will implement some new rules regarding manditory withdrawl from competition if you are diagnosed with a concussion.


That would be a good idea, many sports have similar rules.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Wow, that's bad. 

He probably shouldn't be on a bike tomorrow.


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## slamy (Mar 15, 2004)

He's done for the tour. He won't start. He's my favorite rider and I hope he recovers. It's best that Chris does not ride, this thing could still take a few days to recover from and if he crashes again and hits his head it could make it extremely bad.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Not gonna be Captain Hindsight and question allowing Horner to finish the stage. But I totally admire his toughness and innate instinct as a competitor to finish.


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## windmic (Jun 11, 2007)

He is officially not starting. For anyone who hasn't had a serious TBI, gotten back on the bike, and finished the ride - don't knock it till you try it. The decision not to get back on and finish is not as seemingly easy as is stated here. This is his livelyhood. This is how he pays the bills. This could be his retirement. This is worldclass professional sports. You don't just decide not to get back on the bike. It's not that easy. I wish Horner the best, he is truely classy.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

windmic said:


> He is officially not starting. For anyone who hasn't had a serious TBI, gotten back on the bike, and finished the ride - don't knock it till you try it. The decision not to get back on and finish is not as seemingly easy as is stated here. This is his livelyhood. This is how he pays the bills. This could be his retirement. This is worldclass professional sports. You don't just decide not to get back on the bike. It's not that easy. I wish Horner the best, he is truely classy.


that's why it should not be the rider making the decision in such an instance.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

Horner officially out. 

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...fends-decision-to-let-him-finish-stage_182840


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

This makes me really sad. I was looking forward to watching Chris once they got to the mountains.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

IMO it was totally irresponsible to allow him to continue, for both his safety and that of all the other riders. After 25k on the bike he still had no idea where he was or what had happened.....


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Henry Porter said:


> Sounds to me like the doctor is covering his own ass but he should be done. Google second-impact syndrome to see why.


they can't stop the race and perform complicated tests on everyone involved in a minor crash. Half of the peloton would lose 10+ minutes if this were the case.

You can see Horner talking to the doctor while holding on to the car and I suspect he was lucid enough to not raise any red flags.

It's a difficult job (do you really think it's easy to diagnose concussions in a few seconds based on little to no evidence when all the riders want to do is ride away?) - and Horner's concussion symptoms may have come and go - he was obviously good enough to get on the bike and ride for 25 miles, but then got disoriented at the finish again.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Very tragic, I was really pulling for Chris in this tour. I can't believe the number of head injuries this year, including the Soler and Weiland tragedies. Hoping for a complete recover for Chris.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

55x11 said:


> they can't stop the race and perform complicated tests on everyone involved in a minor crash. Half of the peloton would lose 10+ minutes if this were the case.
> 
> You can see Horner talking to the doctor while holding on to the car and I suspect he was lucid enough to not raise any red flags.
> 
> It's a difficult job (do you really think it's easy to diagnose concussions in a few seconds based on little to no evidence when all the riders want to do is ride away?) - and Horner's concussion symptoms may have come and go - he was obviously good enough to get on the bike and ride for 25 miles, but then got disoriented at the finish again.


Actually try reading what I wrote then respond. It works much better than just responding blindly. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=3439309&postcount=20


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rubbersoul said:


> Very tragic, I was really pulling for Chris in this tour. I can't believe the number of head injuries this year, including the Soler and Weiland tragedies. Hoping for a complete recover for Chris.


No kidding. Soler is still in the hospital.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*it's the biggest race of the season*

he was under 30K from the finish
they let him finish the day
if the concussion was minor he'd have raced today
it wasn't so he goes home
if it was minor and they pulled him, he'd be bummed right now
they erred on the side of him still be able to race
he got home on instinct as many athlete with their bell rung has many times
just like fighters finishing rounds after getting clocked


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## krott5333 (Oct 2, 2009)

very very sad, doesn't he know where he is and still able to finish the stage of the tour. That shows how amazing these riders are, their bodies are just so used to riding hard.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> he was under 30K from the finish
> they let him finish the day
> if the concussion was minor he'd have raced today
> it wasn't so he goes home
> ...


It was a bad call putting him back on the bike - but its not a call the staff is trained to make very well.


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## mtrider05 (Aug 8, 2009)

It was stated the only reason he didn't start today is because of his calf hematoma, not the head injury.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Henry Porter said:


> Actually try reading what I wrote then respond. It works much better than just responding blindly.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showpost.php?p=3439309&postcount=20


I read your post before. Even cutting 10-minute check to 1 minute check for a GC contender after crashing might as well be equal to pulling them out of the race - the chances of catching on are dramatically decreasing with every seconds passing, as peloton is flying at 35 miles an hour. 
And what to do with many riders involved in a crash - making all of them go through a 1-minute concussion check is just not feasible, the doctors have to make judgement calls.

I just don't think the calls for doctor to be fired is fair. They have a very difficult job and there is a very delicate balancing act.

Let's put this differently - say Andy Schleck crashes, has only superficial facial bruises and the doctor pulls him from the race, despite protest from Andy Schleck and his team management. Later CAT scan shows there was no concussion and he could have continued. Oops. Now what? Is that acceptable to you? Should the doctors always be on the side of being safe? 

What if they let Schleck continue but after 3 minute delay, and he never catches on, losing 10 minutes total? We saw Leipheimer back on the bike within seconds of crashing and he still lost a minute+. How much time would Leipheimer lose if he needed to go through medical tests before being allowed to get back on the bike?

If you read this thread carefully, my very first response to OP says that Horner should not have been allowed to continue. In retrospect, it would not be such an easy call for doctor to make.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

55x11 said:


> I read your post before. Even cutting 10-minute check to 1 minute check for a GC contender after crashing might as well be equal to pulling them out of the race - the chances of catching on are dramatically decreasing with every seconds passing, as peloton is flying at 35 miles an hour.
> And what to do with many riders involved in a crash - making all of them go through a 1-minute concussion check is just not feasible, the doctors have to make judgement calls.
> 
> I just don't think the calls for doctor to be fired is fair. They have a very difficult job and there is a very delicate balancing act.
> ...


It really would not take that long. Checking for balance, questions etc. He would have failed one or more of those at the scene. Yes if AS failed one or more of those, I would be fine with him being pulled from competition. Any rider actually.. This is their race not mine. I have no irons in the fire.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

55x11 said:


> I read your post before. Even cutting 10-minute check to 1 minute check for a GC contender after crashing might as well be equal to pulling them out of the race - the chances of catching on are dramatically decreasing with every seconds passing, as peloton is flying at 35 miles an hour.
> And what to do with many riders involved in a crash - making all of them go through a 1-minute concussion check is just not feasible, the doctors have to make judgement calls.
> 
> I just don't think the calls for doctor to be fired is fair. They have a very difficult job and there is a very delicate balancing act.
> ...


What experiences do you have with head trauma? I've got both personal and professional and there is no way I would let any bike race ruin someone's life, even the TdF. Once you have to change someone's diaper from head trauma, your priorities get straightened out real quick.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Henry Porter said:


> What experiences do you have with head trauma? I've got both personal and professional and there is no way I would let any bike race ruin someone's life, even the TdF. Once you have to change someone's diaper from head trauma, your priorities get straightened out real quick.


I have ZERO experience in medical field. 

And this lack of experience has absolutely no relevance to the points I am arguing. Nobody is saying that there should be zero checks - however, I am willing to leave this decision to the doctor in the field, and I am not arguing they should be fired if they fail to test for a concussion when a rider seemed to be otherwise ready and willing to continue.

What are you proposing exactly? 
Let's use Leipheimer scenario: 4K to go, he falls off the bike narrowly missing the guard raile, gets up, runs back, picks up the bike, remounts and about to try to catch up to the peloton. 

You are in the doctors car behind him, with all of your vast experience.

What do you do? Do you stop him, ask him to get off the bike to administer a test? 
Do you let him go on? What?!


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## ragweed (Jan 2, 2009)

Love this picture of Chris taken after he left the hospital.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

55x11 said:


> I have ZERO experience in medical field.
> 
> And this lack of experience has absolutely no relevance to the points I am arguing. Nobody is saying that there should be zero checks - however, I am willing to leave this decision to the doctor in the field, and I am not arguing they should be fired if they fail to test for a concussion when a rider seemed to be otherwise ready and willing to continue.
> 
> ...


Not sure the Leipheimer comparison works. Leipheimer was not knocked unconscious as Horner apparently was.

My non-professional opinion is that if you get knocked unconscious, however short a time, you should be pulled from the race. Of course, people do sometimes suffer bad concussions without going unconscious, in which case on on-the fly evaluation may be difficult, especially if the racer seems pretty lucid and is jumping on his bike.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Jwiffle said:


> Not sure the Leipheimer comparison works. Leipheimer was not knocked unconscious as Horner apparently was.
> 
> My non-professional opinion is that if you get knocked unconscious, however short a time, you should be pulled from the race. Of course, people do sometimes suffer bad concussions without going unconscious, in which case on on-the fly evaluation may be difficult, especially if the racer seems pretty lucid and is jumping on his bike.


Ok, that's a good rule that I would agree with. It is difficult to know if doc knew that Horner was unconscious after the crash. One can also put some responsibility on the rider himself and the DS - Bruyneel could have pulled Horner, or Horner could have decided not to continue.

If I was knocked out during crash and was unconscious even for a few seconds, I would not continue, but that's just me.

All I am arguing is that (while I certainly don't think Horner should have continued, see my very first response to OP) the doctor involved may not have done anything wrong here either. Doctors car gets to the crash site, Horner gets on the bike and starts riding - they examined him while he was riding and he apparently seemed Ok. In retrospect - should have stopped him to do more extensive tests? Definitely yes. Should they have pulled him from the race? Yes. 
But I could also see how it could have backfired if Horner was determined to be fine to continue and lost huge chunk of time on GC due to tests.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Chris Horner is over the age of 21. He has signed waivers for years. He has crashed, hard, many times before. He is a professional, practicing his business. The bias of the sport should be "let him race" and not the other way.

I suspect he would agree.


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## mtrider05 (Aug 8, 2009)

Creakyknees said:


> Chris Horner is over the age of 21. He has signed waivers for years. He has crashed, hard, many times before. He is a professional, practicing his business. The bias of the sport should be "let him race" and not the other way.
> 
> I suspect he would agree.


/thread.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

as both a neuroscientist and a competitive cyclist (who has had head injuries from crashes) much of this thread reflects some scary sentiments:

if the only reason Horner did not start was due to a calf hematoma, there's some race doctors who should be investigated. If Horner had a subsequent crash (and consider the subsequent stage he missed), he could have suffered permanent damage (if he hasn't already).

The willingness of an athlete to continue after an injury should never be even a consideration from a medical perspective. First of all, no rider is in a position to make an informed decision following a head injury. Certainly Horner wasn't. 

The fact that Horner is a professional is also irrelevant. The whole point of professional sports organizations is to provide safeguards for athletes' long-term health. Just watch some of the documentaries about football players who in their 30s are suffering from brain damage. Cycling is a backwater sport when it comes to athlete health, but it's time to cut the macho crap about head injuries and realize that the long-term consequences are not worth putting a rider at risk. At the very least, Horner has not make near the sort of money to even begin to provide long-term care if he needed it.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

*Lucid? Really?*

How lucid could Horner be if he didn't know where he was or if he was in a bike race?
Seriously.

As a side note, I was on a big group HOG ride. One of my friends, very experienced, was parked but sitting on his bike and another bike rode by and clipped his bars. My buddy's bike tipped over and he fell backwards, hitting the back of his head on the pavement. (Since he was parked, he hadn't put his helmet on yet).
He only lost consciousness for a few moments, but we thought he had hurt his neck...an ambulance was on scene and he was loaded into it in minutes. He was still talkative as they took him away. He wanted us to phone his wife, and make sure someone got his bike home for him. He knew exactly where he was and what was going on.
He died from bleeding in his brain in less than two hours.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> Chris Horner is over the age of 21. He has signed waivers for years. He has crashed, hard, many times before. He is a professional, practicing his business. The bias of the sport should be "let him race" and not the other way.
> 
> I suspect he would agree.



Yeah Im sure he would and then two mins after that he would have asked you what happened again, thats kinda the whole point in this case the athlete has no idea what happened or what the risks are.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> How lucid could Horner be if he didn't know where he was or if he was in a bike race?
> Seriously.
> 
> As a side note, I was on a big group HOG ride. One of my friends, very experienced, was parked but sitting on his bike and another bike rode by and clipped his bars. My buddy's bike tipped over and he fell backwards, hitting the back of his head on the pavement. (Since he was parked, he hadn't put his helmet on yet).
> ...


wow.........................not sure I needed to hear that BUT.........thanks and sorry


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> How lucid could Horner be if he didn't know where he was or if he was in a bike race?
> Seriously.
> 
> As a side note, I was on a big group HOG ride. One of my friends, very experienced, was parked but sitting on his bike and another bike rode by and clipped his bars. My buddy's bike tipped over and he fell backwards, hitting the back of his head on the pavement. (Since he was parked, he hadn't put his helmet on yet).
> ...


I'm so sorry to hear that was the outcome. Sometimes even when everyone does it right, things go bad. I'm just sorry it happened to your friend.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

and it would not have ended any differently had he gotten on his bike either EXCEPT he MAY have take out the rider behind him or next to him....


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

32and3cross said:


> Yeah Im sure he would and then two mins after that he would have asked you what happened again, thats kinda the whole point in this case the athlete has no idea what happened or what the risks are.


that's why you are supposed to be lucid when you sign the waiver.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> that's why you are supposed to be lucid when you sign the waiver.


Really man, so even tho he was showing signs of major head injury they should let him decide. 

The sad part is I think you think your actually making good arguments in these threads when really all you do is just spout off the same thing over and over and say your right.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

32and3cross said:


> Really man, so even tho he was showing signs of major head injury they should let him decide.
> 
> The sad part is I think you think your actually making good arguments in these threads when really all you do is just spout off the same thing over and over and say your right.


You should brush up on the difference between facts and assertions.


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