# Armstrong Was at Center of Doping Program, Agency Says



## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

See here.

“The U.S.P.S. Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices,” the agency said. “A program organized by individuals who thought they were above the rules and who still play a major and active role in sport today.”

The teammates who came forward and submitted sworn affidavits included some of the best cyclists of Armstrong’s generation: Levi Leipheimer; Tyler Hamilton; and George Hincapie, one of the most respected American riders in recent history. Other teammates who came forward with information were Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Floyd Landis, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie, the agency said.


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

Oh really?


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## MMinSC (Nov 19, 2011)

No Sh*t? I'm shocked I tell you....SHOCKED!!!!


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

So he won doping and everyone else was doping. So, his doping was better than the others?

Since it appears most seem to do it, doesn't that level the playing field?


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

O.k., for the short-attention-span avengers: Notice that these allegations are much more serious than simple doping. You might want to read the article. Details will be up on the USADA website sometime this afternoon.

Edit: The information is up now.


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## gregario (Nov 19, 2001)

ziscwg said:


> So he won doping and everyone else was doping. So, his doping was better than the others?
> 
> Since it appears most seem to do it, doesn't that level the playing field?


I hate this argument. FARK NO. It sure as hell doesn't level the playing field for those that want to compete without using banned substances.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

If they really do clean up the sport completely, they’ll have to change the Grand Tour routes to be less hilly, or increase the coverage time. 

More seriously, I’m interested to see how Johan Bruyneel’s arbitration case turns out, being that he was director of the team and very close with Lance for all the years he won the tour. I read his crappy book. If his case turns out negatively, there would be little doubt Lance’s would be anything else. 

I think it’s kind of funny that some of Johan’s guys came out saying they doped and he’s saying he is innocent of that knowledge. Paleeez, if they doped Johan knew and they admitted that they doped so there ya go.

So even if the arbitration case turns out in his favor, to me, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I guess there is no winning with me, I’ve made up my mind but still believe Lance should be let be and his accomplishments should let stand. Laughable that the wins will be passed to the next admitted doper in line. 

Thanks to the OP for posting.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't think Bruyneel will actually see arbitration. I expect he'll decide at the last minute not to contest it.


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## TheFunkyMonkey (Jul 30, 2012)

What's funny to me is how the fan boys defend this DB. Yes, they were all doping - doesn't make it right no matter how you slice it. They're all losers - there should be no winners in any of those Tours, simple as that. The system is seriously flawed and it's comical that's it debated here or within any other context.

Almost as laughable is the argument of all the good that Lance has done. So that "cures" his egotistical aversion to embracing the truth? Not in my book! I can't stand the guy and could care less about his cycling achievements or his do good activities.


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## Lazy Spinner (Aug 30, 2009)

Hey now! None of us were aware of this thing called "cancer" until Lance started winning bike races. We just assumed that people painfully wasted away because of witchcraft or by offending angry gods. Thanks to Lance Armstrong, we now understand it is a disease. So, cut the guy some slack.


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## tethernaut (Dec 11, 2008)

TheFunkyMonkey said:


> So the world is now aware of cancer because of Lance? You can't be f**king serious!?!? I think I've heard it all now... Can't wait to hear what other achievements fan boys add to the DBs list of achievements. That being said, you're winning so far!


Um, you ever heard of sarcasm?


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## CHL (Jun 24, 2005)

Honestly, I still don't buy the argument that at the center of the doping scheme was Armstrong. I mean he was the primary beneficiary but did he mastermind the entire enterprise and saw to its logistics? It's apparent that such a scheme existed at US Postal, probably at Discovery and perhaps Astana as well. Radio Shack was run clean by the accounts of these "dopers."

If anything, it Bruyneel would have organized and run the entire operation. You need super tight control of the entire program to avoid detection. We've read the allegations in the news papers but never had any definitive proof (let's be honest if someone had come up with it, this would have blown up years ago). Maybe this explains why a few ex Postal riders were readily caught once they parted ways with their former team. It's amazing that from the ashes of the Festina affair rose this colossus of a cancer.

If the UCI did hide evidence, was it trying to prevent a spiral caused by two major concurrent doping scandals?


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## brentley (Jul 20, 2008)

CHL said:


> Honestly, I still don't buy the argument that at the center of the doping scheme was Armstrong. I mean he was the primary beneficiary but did he mastermind the entire enterprise and saw to its logistics? It's apparent that such a scheme existed at US Postal, probably at Discovery and perhaps Astana as well. Radio Shack was run clean by the accounts of these "dopers."
> 
> If anything, it Bruyneel would have organized and run the entire operation. You need super tight control of the entire program to avoid detection. We've read the allegations in the news papers but never had any definitive proof (let's be honest if someone had come up with it, this would have blown up years ago). Maybe this explains why a few ex Postal riders were readily caught once they parted ways with their former team. It's amazing that from the ashes of the Festina affair rose this colossus of a cancer.
> 
> If the UCI did hide evidence, was it trying to prevent a spiral caused by two major concurrent doping scandals?


Yes Lance was the boss; the excuse is you had to in order to keep up so doping was basically required. Johan was the coordinator with Lance (if you read the whole report) but Lance as an owner of the team and rainmaker for sponsors he really called the shots on everything. 

People that came forward before and admitted it (or accused LA of doping) were punished by the peleton for breaking the omerta in the pack. Everyone thought Landis was crazy when he started making allegations after he got caught. Bitter etc.

So while it is weak the only way that the omerta could be broken was to expose a large number of dopers at once in a coordinated fashion.


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

ziscwg said:


> So he won doping and everyone else was doping. So, his doping was better than the others?
> 
> Since it appears most seem to do it, doesn't that level the playing field?


This is such a weak argument.

First, do all cyclists pay Ferrari $1 million and make six-figure "donations" to the UCI?

Second, when has Lance claimed to dope in order to level the playing field? Never. He has adamantly avowed that he was 100% clean for his entire career.

Remember these classics:
"Everybody wants to know what I am on. What am I on? I am on my bike busting my ass six hours a day; What are YOU on?"

"Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."

"If you consider my situation: a guy who comes back from arguably, you know, a death sentence, why would I then enter into a sport and dope myself up and risk my life again? That's crazy. I would never do that. No. No way."


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## worst_shot_ever (Jul 27, 2009)

HikenBike said:


> This is such a weak argument.
> 
> First, do all cyclists pay Ferrari $1 million and make six-figure "donations" to the UCI?
> 
> ...


That final argument always struck me as rather persuasive; honestly, who would be so stupid? Apparently, Lance would.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*

Let's keep this on point and avoid going personal. And for one poster:

Sarcasm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## TheFunkyMonkey (Jul 30, 2012)

Got it. Moving onto more positive threads...


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I posted this in another thread,but the program bears a listen. If you get ESPN radio in your market, take a listen to Colin Cowherd, "The Herd" today. In DFW it's on 103.3 FM at noon for an hour or so. He says that doping, of course preceded LA, but that LA was tired of getting beat by dopers. It was economic survival for LA and his minions like Levi, Hincappie, etc. Lance just became the best at it. Cowherd says, and I agree, that it's like boob jobs in Hollywood - they're fake, but they got to have 'em if they want to be in movies.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

David Loving said:


> I posted this in another thread,but the program bears a listen. If you get ESPN radio in your market, take a listen to Colin Cowherd, "The Herd" today. In DFW it's on 103.3 FM at noon for an hour or so. He says that doping, of course preceded LA, but that LA was tired of getting beat by dopers. It was economic survival for LA and his minions like Levi, Hincappie, etc. Lance just became the best at it. Cowherd says, and I agree, that it's like boob jobs in Hollywood - they're fake, but they got to have 'em if they want to be in movies.


since I cannot receive it, how did Cowherd know this?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

David Loving said:


> I posted this in another thread,but the program bears a listen. If you get ESPN radio in your market, take a listen to Colin Cowherd, "The Herd" today. In DFW it's on 103.3 FM at noon for an hour or so. He says that doping, of course preceded LA, but that LA was tired of getting beat by dopers. It was economic survival for LA and his minions like Levi, Hincappie, etc. Lance just became the best at it. Cowherd says, and I agree, that it's like boob jobs in Hollywood - they're fake, but they got to have 'em if they want to be in movies.


Well of course*, that doesn't excuse Armstrong being an ass and not standing up as the tough guy he's always portrayed to be and coming clean about the nature of the beast. He's still acting like a pansy and hiding behind his family and cancer work in order to dupe the gullible.

*Although it appears he never really spent much if any time racing clean so at least the part about being sick of getting beat by dopers might not have much basis in reality.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm still kinda blown away by all the press releases yesterday. So Lance was the head of it all huh? It's funny how all the PR's talk about a culture and not a person. If one person told the team "do this or else" you'd switch teams.. but the culture was that if you want to be a "pro" you need too...bla bla bla.. I'm not saying he did or didn't, but for all the people here who claim to not be biased.. you're kinda jumping on the LA is the root of all evil train. Think about it.

Knock knock, USADA, come clean, testify against LA and we'll give you a deal. Everyone claims to be clean since 2006, yet the times were similar, or what the race viewer has come to expect. It's not like GH simply started sucking at the tour. The tour continued to get faster, riders got faster. If all these guys were on PED's and they all stopped, wouldn't you see a fall off in performance?

I'm really just asking. I could be wrong, I'm no expert on PED's, or how they even work. I'm just asking the dumb question I guess, but.. It doesn't make sense to me, it would seem they were still using, And if you think they were still on PED's, then they're STILL lying.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

YamaDan said:


> It's not like GH simply started sucking at the tour.


Actually he pretty much did start sucking at some point around that time compared to his dope-fueled years. The more interesting case is VandeVelde's 4th place in the Tour in 2008 (I think). I find that one hard to believe given it appeared to basically be a one-off.


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## pw9000 (Apr 22, 2009)

I'll be honest and admit I'm a fan of Lance. I'm also a fan of George, Levi, and VDV. I was disappointed, but not shocked to read the confessions released yesterday. However, to have any credibility, the USADA has to pursue sanctions on these guys with the same fervor they have pursued Lance. Either way, we (the fans) lose the most. Our sport loses credibility and destroys it's heros.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

The implications were around almost all year about this...First JV spills the beans then all of these guys that turned down Olympic rides for the U.S. 

Definitely a bad day for American cycling, especially when so many young American cyclists are showing a lot of promise in Europe.
That was probably said in the early 90's too, though, when these guys were first starting.  

Not to throw any more people under the bus but there were other people on those postal/disco teams...Contador, Boonen, Salvodelli...


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

no wai!


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

pw9000 said:


> I'll be honest and admit I'm a fan of Lance. I'm also a fan of George, Levi, and VDV. I was disappointed, but not shocked to read the confessions released yesterday. However, to have any credibility, the USADA has to pursue sanctions on these guys with the same fervor they have pursued Lance. Either way, we (the fans) lose the most. Our sport loses credibility and destroys it's heros.


They've already been sanctioned.


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## pw9000 (Apr 22, 2009)

I haven't seen the full sanctions, but heard Levi's has been reduced from six months. But, that's my point. Where's the equity in that?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

pw9000 said:


> I haven't seen the full sanctions, but heard Levi's has been reduced from six months. But, that's my point. Where's the equity in that?


It's called a plea bargain in criminal cases. Armstrong was given the same option.


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## dmaciel (Oct 10, 2012)

pw9000 said:


> I'll be honest and admit I'm a fan of Lance. I'm also a fan of George, Levi, and VDV. I was disappointed, but not shocked to read the confessions released yesterday. However, to have any credibility, the USADA has to pursue sanctions on these guys with the same fervor they have pursued Lance. Either way, we (the fans) lose the most. Our sport loses credibility and destroys it's heros.


I concur!


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

pw9000 said:


> I'll be honest and admit I'm a fan of Lance. I'm also a fan of George, Levi, and VDV. I was disappointed, but not shocked to read the confessions released yesterday. However, to have any credibility, the USADA has to pursue sanctions on these guys with the same fervor they have pursued Lance. Either way, we (the fans) lose the most. Our sport loses credibility and destroys it's heros.


People making this argument, and there are many of them, have the causality mixed up. Lance voluntarily forfeited the right to be treated equally when he refused to cooperate. He's the one who decided to fight the charges, deny everything and sue and intimidate everyone in sight. He's the one responsible for the situation he's in, not everyone else.


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## pw9000 (Apr 22, 2009)

Is six months equitable?

I get it, but it just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe it's seeing these athletes that I have idolized fall so hard. I'm left with more questions about method and intent of prosecution. I still wonder if cycling is any cleaner today. I can forgive, but I would be a fool if I forgot.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

CHL said:


> Honestly, I still don't buy the argument that at the center of the doping scheme was Armstrong. I mean he was the primary beneficiary but did he mastermind the entire enterprise and saw to its logistics? It's apparent that such a scheme existed at US Postal, probably at Discovery and perhaps Astana as well. Radio Shack was run clean by the accounts of these "dopers."
> 
> If anything, it Bruyneel would have organized and run the entire operation. You need super tight control of the entire program to avoid detection. We've read the allegations in the news papers but never had any definitive proof (let's be honest if someone had come up with it, this would have blown up years ago). Maybe this explains why a few ex Postal riders were readily caught once they parted ways with their former team. It's amazing that from the ashes of the Festina affair rose this colossus of a cancer.
> 
> If the UCI did hide evidence, was it trying to prevent a spiral caused by two major concurrent doping scandals?


Hamilton was doping on Postal before Lance was even on the team. Andreu doped while he was on Motorola (pre-cancer Lance was on the team, as well).

The Festina affair happened in 1998, so it ain't like doping on the USPS team started after that fiasco.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

pw9000 said:


> I'll be honest and admit I'm a fan of Lance. I'm also a fan of George, Levi, and VDV. I was disappointed, but not shocked to read the confessions released yesterday. However, to have any credibility, the USADA has to pursue sanctions on these guys with the same fervor they have pursued Lance. Either way, we (the fans) lose the most. Our sport loses credibility and destroys it's heros.


Don't forget Big George backed up his Capo and encouraged other riders to dope, if Michael Barry is to be believed.


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## singlespeedbuss (Aug 6, 2009)

Has LA ever tested positive for banned substances? Hearsay from people who've been caught does not constitute truth that Lance has doped. The U.S.A.D.A will bring more notoriety to themselves by knocking down Goliath than going after people who have already admitted to doping and do not have the high profile of Lance. People whom have admitted to using PED`s will take the heat off themselves quicker by admitting their guilt and transferring the blame to someone of higher profile. There is no glory in picking on the little guy when we can try to take down the big dog and make a bigger name for ourselves. If Lance doped, Kudos for not getting caught. If Lance is innocent let him be. This is similar to Jose Canseco`s B.S., he got busted for PED`s and decided to take down everyone in baseball, pressure is off J.C. and back on everyone else. Where does all this lead to, nowhere but wasted time that could be better spent on more important issues.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

singlespeedbuss said:


> Has LA ever tested positive for banned substances? Hearsay from people who've been caught does not constitute truth that Lance has doped. The U.S.A.D.A will bring more notoriety to themselves by knocking down Goliath than going after people who have already admitted to doping and do not have the high profile of Lance. People whom have admitted to using PED`s will take the heat off themselves quicker by admitting their guilt and transferring the blame to someone of higher profile. There is no glory in picking on the little guy when we can try to take down the big dog and make a bigger name for ourselves. If Lance doped, Kudos for not getting caught. If Lance is innocent let him be. This is similar to Jose Canseco`s B.S., he got busted for PED`s and decided to take down everyone in baseball, pressure is off J.C. and back on everyone else. Where does all this lead to, nowhere but wasted time that could be better spent on more important issues.



Another one late to the party.



This has been answered in this forum over and over and over again.

Start reading threads here and discover for yourself.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

cda 455 said:


> This has been answered in this forum over and over and over again.


As when someone advocates creationism as opposed to evolution as a viable alternative to explain the history of life on earth, I'm beginning to view the failure to comprehend the meaning of the word "hearsay" as an indictment of our education system in the U.S.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Dwayne Barry said:


> As when someone advocates creationism as opposed to evolution as a viable alternative to explain the history of life on earth, I'm beginning to view the failure to comprehend the meaning of the word "hearsay" *as an indictment of our education system in the U.S.*



Your poast is an excellent example as such.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> It's called a plea bargain in criminal cases. Armstrong was given the same option.


This isnt a criminal case. If it was the USADA would not be the Judge, Jury, and Prosecuter.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

cda 455 said:


> Your poast is an excellent example as such.


How so? I know in a rush I often botch some grammar or spelling but I think I did alright in that one


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

jtompilot said:


> This isnt a criminal case. If it was the USADA would not be the Judge, Jury, and Prosecuter.


I didn't say it was, but you're mistaken in your characterization of the role USADA plays regardless.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

jtompilot said:


> This isnt a criminal case. If it was the USADA would not be the Judge, Jury, and Prosecuter.


Prosecuter yes, but wasn't there to be an independent arbitrator? I don’t know anything about who that would be though.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

Fireform said:


> People making this argument, and there are many of them, have the causality mixed up. Lance voluntarily forfeited the right to be treated equally when he refused to cooperate. He's the one who decided to fight the charges, deny everything and sue and intimidate everyone in sight. He's the one responsible for the situation he's in, not everyone else.


meh.. I'd say the riders forfeited their right's to being treated equally when they doped, and lied about doping, and now are pointing fingers to escape persecution. This whole thing stinks, there is no positive spin.

The sad truth is that before Lance, the interest in road cycling was stagnant. Since Lance, it's increased immensely. Not because of GH, LL, MB or the others, but because of Lance. Love him or hate him, he has done a tremendous amount of good for this sport. I know there will be comments following this post with the kids and drugs etc.. Hey I have two kids and I don't want them doing drugs either...but they would have little interest in the sport without it's hero's.. And in my mind, yesterday, all the hero's fell.

It's simply a horrible thing to happen for this sport I love so much.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Dwayne Barry said:


> How so? I know in a rush I often botch some grammar or spelling but I think I did alright in that one



You have two complete sentences with two completely different trains of thought separated by a simple comma :hand: .


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

BostonG said:


> Prosecuter yes, but wasn't there to be an independent arbitrator? I don’t know anything about who that would be though.


No, but that's old news. 

When he got his pro license, he aggreed to those terms.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

cda 455 said:


> Your poast is an excellent example as such.


His POST was?:idea:


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

This whole mess stinks. Lance stinks, USADA stinks, UCI stinks, Hell the whole peleton stinks.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

YamaDan said:


> No, but that's old news.
> 
> When he got his pro license, he aggreed to those terms.


From the announcement:

Three other members of the USPS Team have chosen to contest the charges and take their cases to arbitration: Johan Bruyneel, the team director; Dr. Pedro Celaya, a team doctor; and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer. These three individuals will receive a full hearing before independent judges, where they will have the opportunity to present and confront the evidence, cross-examine witnesses and testify under oath in a public proceeding. 

I assume LA would have been given the same if he contested.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

cda 455 said:


> You have two complete sentences with two completely different trains of thought separated by a simple coma :hand: .


Oops didn't even see the comma.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

BostonG said:


> From the announcement:
> 
> Three other members of the USPS Team have chosen to contest the charges and take their cases to arbitration: Johan Bruyneel, the team director; Dr. Pedro Celaya, a team doctor; and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer. These three individuals will receive a full hearing before independent judges, where they will have the opportunity to present and confront the evidence, cross-examine witnesses and testify under oath in a public proceeding.
> 
> I assume LA would have been given the same if he contested.


Good thought, but they don't have racing license. As I understand it, they are not being tried in the same system. That's why his case was thrown out in Texas earlier in the year.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

YamaDan said:


> His POST was?:idea:


Get with the program.



You're making us fellow nOOBs look bad :ciappa: !


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

YamaDan said:


> Good thought, but they don't have racing license. As I understand it, they are not being tried in the same system. That's why his case was thrown out in Texas earlier in the year.


Wow, I did nto know that. That would be a comical sham (and I ain't talkin' about the pillow cover). 

Wow, I'm stupified. Contesting it wold have been an idiotic exercise.


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## YamaDan (Aug 28, 2012)

cda 455 said:


> Get with the program.
> 
> 
> 
> You're making us fellow nOOBs look bad :ciappa: !


Oh crap:cryin:

From Urban Dictionary
Poast 

Boastful post that make the poster feel better about themselves, but for whom other can't care less.

"Aren't you sick of Rick's poasts? That guy must have really low self-esteem" 


My bad.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

YamaDan said:


> Oh crap:cryin:
> 
> From Urban Dictionary
> Poast
> ...



It's all good :thumbsup: !


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

Great piece in the NY Daily News -- This part sums it up pretty will imo: 

"the all-American boy is unmasked as a species far worse than the Olympians and baseball players who have boosted speed and strength via chemistry.

He is a fraud to the jazzed-up marrow of his bones. He is a bald-faced liar to the public and under oath to investigators. And he is a thug who attempted to conceal his systemic cheating with threats and intimidation."

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/world-record-dope-article-1.1179680


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

Hearing some chatter on the internets, Bruyneel has been ****-canned from RSNT


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

EuroSVT said:


> Hearing some chatter on the internets, Bruyneel has been ****-canned from RSNT



Wow!



The fallout continues.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

pw9000 said:


> I'll be honest and admit I'm a fan of Lance. I'm also a fan of George, Levi, and VDV. I was disappointed, but not shocked to read the confessions released yesterday. However, to have any credibility, the USADA has to pursue sanctions on these guys with the same fervor they have pursued Lance. Either way, we (the fans) lose the most. Our sport loses credibility and destroys it's heros.


What sanctions do they need to pursue against cyclists who have already admitted doping and already been sanctioned...


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

The only thing shocking about this discovery is the extent of the doping going on and the level of detailed evidence and testimony the USDA has been able to put together despite the Dopestrong mafia's intemidation tactics - which reached into the halls of the US Congress.

The USADA has done a fab job here - hat's off to Mr. T and his crew over there!


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

EuroSVT said:


> Hearing some chatter on the internets, Bruyneel has been ****-canned from RSNT



The ESPN article:

Johan Bruyneel out at RadioShack after USADA report - ESPN


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