# Epoxy for Orbea Orca Carbon Frame



## justinsmith91 (Nov 12, 2014)

Orbea Orca rear stay has come loose from the aluminum bracket/ mount where the rear skewer sits.

Is there any eboxy that may solve this problem, or is this frame set toast?

Thank you for your advice.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

It's called a dropout. That can probably be reattached, but don't make it a DIY project. Be sure whoever does it knows what they are doing. 

How long have you had the bike? Purchase new, from a dealer, or other?


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

If it's a good bike you want to
Keep, then send it to a professional repair place and let them do it right..

Bill


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

BTW- a quick Google search of _orbea frame dropout separated_ shows that you are far from the first to have this specific issue with an Orbea frame.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ibericb said:


> BTW- a quick Google search of _orbea frame dropout separated_ shows that you are from the first to have this specific issue with an Orbea frame.


Did you mean 'far from' the first?? You must have....


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Doh! That's what happens when the wife distracts me. 

Thanks! Fixed.


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## justinsmith91 (Nov 12, 2014)

Thank you all for your expert advice. It is a used frame that was bought from a shop who had a customer trade the frame in for a new frame set. It has seen plenty of miles. Looks like it is best to try and contact Orbea for a repair.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Since you aren't the original purchaser, Orbea probably isn't going to be of much help. But the local Orbea dealer may be, as well as other LBS's.

Your profile says Sacramento, which may be a good thing. There are several respected names in CA doing carbon frame repair (e.g. Calfee). Ask and check around. This should be a fairly simple repair, like $50-$100 tops.


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

+1 that you should probably inquire to some of the professional carbon repair shops. You will want to make sure your dropouts and frame are aligned correctly upon repair. Also, there is the issue of galvanic corrosion between the aluminum dropout and the carbon stay. It is possible that Calfee may decline to repair this type of damage because they can't guarantee how long it will last due to that issue, but there is probably somebody out there who will do it. Good luck.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I agree that a professional should make the repair, but no one is answering the question of what epoxy is used?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

You'd have to call Orbea on that one, and I'm pretty sure they won't tell you.

For aftermarket, there are many options for joint bonding (see here for some examples). A specific issue in this case ifs the dropout is likely aluminum, which when bonded to a carbon composite needs proper surface preparation for a durable bond. 

My concern would be the other dropouts (front fork included) - they were all likely bonded following the same protocol / procedure, using the same materials.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I have some structural epoxy that I've used to make CF repairs with CF fabric, but to epoxy in that dropout I'd use JB Weld.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> I agree that a professional should make the repair, but no one is answering the question of what epoxy is used?


You have to understand most of us don't expoxy frames ever. We leave that to the pros since they are trained in how to do it properly.

Bill


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

If it were as simple as mixing a decent two-part epoxy, applying it to the parts, and clamping as the adhesive cured, many of us could do it. But doing that for an Al-to-CF composite part is inviting corrosion that will degrade the aluminum, followed by joint failure. I strongly suspect that is what happened in the OP's case, and that is why I would also be very concerned about the other rear dropout, as well as the fork if it was made by the same fabricator. 

The expertise required to repair this successfully includes precluding direct contact of the aluminum of the dropout with the carbon fiber of the composite. That kind of bonding between carbon fiber composites and aluminum parts is now commonplace in aircraft construction. It's not a problem so long as it is done properly. Done improperly, it can lead to a very dangerous situation. It's not a job for for amateurs.


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## goomba271 (Aug 7, 2008)

*epoxy, carbon and aluminum...*

Some of the posts here imply that carbon, epoxy and aluminum is only a job for 'experts'... like the 'experts' that put this frame together in the first place?

It is not that big of a deal. Clean the drop out, scuff it up with some sandpaper, clean/scuff the inside of the carbon tubes with a tightly rolled up piece of sandpaper, take some decent 2-part (not 5-minute stuff) epoxy and glue it back together. I would go ahead and place the wheel in there with a loose quick release setting to make sure the alignment is correct.

Give it plenty of cure time and if you can, put it someplace where it will stay good and warm for the duration of the cure.

And yes, it wouldn't hurt to check all other aluminum/epoxy joints of the frame periodically.

I'm not knocking the guys at Calfee or wherever but they are likely using the same epoxy resin that is available on the market that most of the rest of us can get. 

Epoxy/carbon isn't indestructable. Epoxy is just glue. One of the better types of glues, but glue nevertheless. Carbon fiber has good tensile (think pulling two ends of a string in opposite directions) material properties but a good whack with a sharp object (a screwdriver will do) will easily punch a ragged hole in the stuff. 

Check out THIS LINK for a real wake up call on carbon stuff in general... 

Have we reached a point of diminishing returns in the quest for ultra-light weight high performance?

Sorry if I've drifted off topic. I've just seen too many failed results of expert designers and engineers at work.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

goomba271 said:


> Some of the posts here imply that carbon, epoxy and aluminum is only a job for 'experts'... like the 'experts' that put this frame together in the first place?
> 
> It is not that big of a deal. Clean the drop out, scuff it up with some sandpaper, clean/scuff the inside of the carbon tubes with a tightly rolled up piece of sandpaper, take some decent 2-part (not 5-minute stuff) epoxy and glue it back together. I would go ahead and place the wheel in there with a loose quick release setting to make sure the alignment is correct. ...
> .


How familiar are you with the issue of galvanic corrosion between carbon fiber and aluminum? That's likely what led to the failure noted in the OP. What you are proposing as the fix is exactly the kind of scenario that creates the problem.


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## goomba271 (Aug 7, 2008)

Hi - 

I am aware of the corrosion issue but do not claim to be an expert. Some industrial manufacturers have developed ways to prevent or minimize this. 

I am of the opinion that by thoroughly cleaning and scuffing the parts, followed by fairly rapid reassembly, the repair will hold for a good long while. 

The difficult part will be separating the pieces to get at them for cleaning. It might require the owner to remove the dropout from the chain stay as well. I don't know how much flex he can get out of that chainstay but it might take some persuasion to get the drop out plug from the seat stay while leaving the dropout attached to same. 


If I were in the business, I don't think I'd issue a lifetime warranty, nor would I want the liability that might go with potential failure. On one of my own bikes however, I would go for it and just keep an eye on it. 

I might even go with a good shot of a Cyanoacrylate adhesive like Zap-A-Gap. Those types of adhesives stick nicely to epoxy as well as clean aluminum.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

goomba271 said:


> ...
> I am of the opinion that by thoroughly cleaning and scuffing the parts, followed by fairly rapid reassembly, the repair will hold for a good long while.


If the issue was galvanic corrosion of the aluminum, then it's not a cleanliness issue, (that's another common reason for bonded joint failure). Galvanic corrosion of aluminum-carbon fiber joints is an electrochemical phenomenon that occurs over time, with any trace of moisture. The moisture doesn't have to be a full wetting. The challenge is to electrically insulate the aluminum part from the carbon fibers, and to completely exclude moisture from the assembled joint. This article will explain the basics.
 If the two parts aren't electrically insulated, the problem will likely return.

A common method for isolating the aluminum from the carbon fiber composite is to build the composite with a glass layer (fiber glass scrim) on the contacting surface. In the case of a fixture like a dropout that sits in the end of a tube, that kind of insulation needs to extend over the tube end. A proper repair of that kind of failure is not as trivial as cleaning and rebonding.

If galvanic corrosion of the aluminum dropout from contact with the carbon fiber composite is indeed the cause (it's been a common problem with frame manufacturers who don't really understand the issue), and it is due to improper joint design, failing to insulate the two parts, then the other three dropouts are suspect as well.


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## goomba271 (Aug 7, 2008)

*thanks for the details...*



ibericb said:


> If the issue was galvanic corrosion of the aluminum, then it's not a cleanliness issue, (that's another common reason for bonded joint failure). Galvanic corrosion of aluminum-carbon fiber joints is an electrochemical phenomenon that occurs over time, with any trace of moisture. The moisture doesn't have to be a full wetting. The challenge is to electrically insulate the aluminum part from the carbon fibers, and to completely exclude moisture from the assembled joint. This article will explain the basics.
> If the two parts aren't electrically insulated, the problem will likely return.
> 
> A common method for isolating the aluminum from the carbon fiber composite is to build the composite with a glass layer (fiber glass scrim) on the contacting surface. In the case of a fixture like a dropout that sits in the end of a tube, that kind of insulation needs to extend over the tube end. A proper repair of that kind of failure is not as trivial as cleaning and rebonding.
> ...


Hi - 

I don't doubt that galvanic corrosion is a possibility. I've actually been studying the problem this evening to brush up and see what the biggest issues are. One solution appears to be simply mixing in glass beads with the epoxy to insulate the carbon from the aluminum.

One guy recommended giving the part a good going over with a special cleaner, scuffing it up and bonding quickly before any surface corrosion has a chance to get in to the joint. 

I'm assuming that when Guys like Calfee won't do it, and Orbea can't get it right, it might be that it's up to the consumer to give it his (her) best shot. If the aluminum is completely sealed in epoxy as a primer coat with glass beads as an 'insulator', THEN glued in place, do you think that would halt the corrosion?

A good rough surface - inside the tube and outside the drop out would make for a decent mechanical bond between the two materials. 

I trust my work and materials knowledge enough to give it a try with or without the glass beads. I don't so much a jump a curb on my bikes and take pretty good care of them overall. If my El Cheapo/Down and Dirty method failed, Plan B could always include an expensive trip to a professional frame repair guy somewhere. I would hope that along with any sales pitch about 'proprietary materials', 'sophisticated techniques', etc that he would offer a damned good guaranty. 

Many early carbon fiber tubed/epoxy bikes were glued together using aluminum lugs. I still see them available on Ebay and Craigslist so I suspect that even early technology was fairly decent. I think you're right in regards to the Orbea drop out coming loose... likely corrosion but possible a dry joint, a contaminated joint, or even a slightly off mix of epoxy. 

On a surfboard design website I frequent, epoxy projects have failed miserably due to any number of causes mostly involving user error - cold temperatures, improper proportions of part A and part B, insufficient mixing of the two parts, etc.

In the Calfee factory photo gallery, they show what appears to be glorified ding repairs in progress.... Grind out the damage, fill the gap with epoxy impregnated carbon fiber, wrap with sheet plastic and run tape over the outside to compress it down. Once cured, feather the edges and hit it with a decent clear coat. 

Mistakes happen in factories too.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

For the aluminum surface, normal surface prep for bonding is all that's necessary. The issue is eclectically insulating the two parts from each other.

There are glass-bead filled epoxies made for this purpose. That would be a step in the right direction, but probably not sufficient to be complete. A significant challenge is the external surface of the tube end, the composite edge, against which the dropout shoulder rests. 

The second part is sealing the bond zone against moisture intrusion.

There have been many bonded carbon fiber - aluminum failures, including frames bonded together with aluminum lugs. It has been extensively studied and is well understood. Calfee has discussed the issue at some length in a technical white paper. As you might imagine, Boeing and others in the aerospace industry have mastered solving the problem, and it's not trivial. You can get an idea of how Boeing approaches dealing with Al-C fiber composite bonding here. While there have been many ideas to simplify construction and assembly (e.g., glass bead filled epoxy, anodization of the aluminum), they mostly remain ideas that some are using in bicycle frame construction.

Certainly a consumer can go at it. Unless they are quite knowledgeable and experienced in dealing with the issue, I wouldn't stake my welfare on the quality of the repair. It's a damned tricky repair. There's a very good reason why Calfee, the broadly recognized leader in C-fiber frame repair, won't do it. There's also a good reason why Calfee won't use aluminum dropouts on their C-fiber bike frames.

*edit added*: part of the problem with rebonding this kind of joint and dealing with electrically insulating the aluminum from the carbon composite is spacing.. The thickness of the epoxy bond line is critical for joint durability - it can't be either too thick or too thin.. If the joint was not initially assembled with a glass-bead filled resin, then there probably isn't space to use one now and maintain proper bond line spacing. If it was, and the joint failed, then it becomes imperative to understand why it failed before rebonding the joint. There certainly wouldn't be room to add a glass scrim layer for insulation.


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## goomba271 (Aug 7, 2008)

*thank you for links...*

I opened the links and read what Calfee and Boeing had to say. They obviously know more about it than I do. 

Good luck to the OP finding a permanent fix. I wonder if he's contacted Orbea directly?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

goomba271 said:


> Good luck to the OP finding a permanent fix. I wonder if he's contacted Orbea directly?


Ditto! I too would like to know what he's found out and decided to do. I'm also curious if he ever used that bike in a trainer.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

ibericb said:


> For the aluminum surface, normal surface prep for bonding is all that's necessary. The issue is eclectically insulating the two parts from each other.
> 
> There are glass-bead filled epoxies made for this purpose. That would be a step in the right direction, but probably not sufficient to be complete. A significant challenge is the external surface of the tube end, the composite edge, against which the dropout shoulder rests.
> 
> ...


Moisture is necessary in order to cause galvanic corrosion. How can moisture get in there if there is a good epoxy bond (it forms a waterproof seal)? Epoxy is also an electrical insulator.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Moisture is necessary in order to cause galvanic corrosion. How can moisture get in there if there is a good epoxy bond (it forms a waterproof seal)? Epoxy is also an electrical insulator.


If it were as simple as you suggest then it wouldn't be such a common point of failure on C-composite frames and forks with Al dropouts. It's challenging enough that two of the top carbon frame repair companies in the U.S. won't even do the repair.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

ibericb said:


> If it were as simple as you suggest then it wouldn't be such a common point of failure on C-composite frames and forks with Al dropouts. It's challenging enough that two of the top carbon frame repair companies in the U.S. won't even do the repair.


Don't know. Maybe they have other reasons like the surfaces and the gaps are too compromised to be rebonded effectively. 

How are carbon fork blades bonded to Al crowns? Do fork blades have an inner layer of fiberglass? Do they use glass filled epoxy? I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, just want to know.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

ibericb said:


> If it were as simple as you suggest then it wouldn't be such a common point of failure on C-composite frames and forks with Al dropouts. It's challenging enough that two of the top carbon frame repair companies in the U.S. won't even do the repair.


If the manufacturer can't get it right and two of the top carbon frame repair companies in the U.S. won't even do similar repairs, how badly can the new owner of the frame do? If he had a "trained" professional do the repair in this case and they create the "super bond" on this one failed joint, the other factory joints are also at risk at this point.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Don't know. Maybe they have other reasons like the surfaces and the gaps are too compromised to be rebonded effectively.


Cleanup shouldn't be an issue. The repair guys clean and rebond C-fiber tubes all the time. Calfee won't do it because, as they state, it is a joint prone to problems. Calfee refuses to bond Al parts to C-fiber composite frames. In their own C-fiber bikes they use Ti dropouts.



mfdemicco said:


> How are carbon fork blades bonded to Al crowns? Do fork blades have an inner layer of fiberglass? Do they use glass filled epoxy? I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, just want to know.


I have no idea what any of the manufacturers who bond Al parts to C-fiber composite frames or forks are doing to manage the issue. What I do know is that about every production bike manufacturer who has gone down the path had early problems with those joints, and had to figure out how to manage the issue if they wanted to continue to use Al dropouts, etc. From what I have heard some have included fiberglass scrim as an innermost fabric layer in their layups in the pertinent areas.

As for the use of Al lugs with C-fiber tubes, the same issue exists. There have been many failures reported for of those kinds of joints. Yet, there are frames constructed that way that have not had any problems. So it can be done, but it certainly isn't trivial.

The glass bead filled epoxies really aren't a good solution for insert bonding situations (rod or shaft in a tube). They were designed to control bondline thickness, and for that they work really well in lap and butt joints. But with inserts, the bondline is determined by the dimensions of the tube and the insert, not the glass filler in the epoxy. The hard part is maintaining the bondline dimensions uniformly, and not scraping resin off of the surfaces as the parts are mated. If that happens with an Al-C-fiber joint, then a conduction path between the two parts may remain after curing. Therein lies a big part of the problem.



mikerp said:


> If the manufacturer can't get it right and two of the top carbon frame repair companies in the U.S. won't even do similar repairs, how badly can the new owner of the frame do?


He/she could do worse than the OEM, in that it would fail sooner.




mikerp said:


> If he had a "trained" professional do the repair in this case and they create the "super bond" on this one failed joint, the other factory joints are also at risk at this point.


Yep. That is a concern I raised in previous posts in this thread (see posts 11 & 14 above).

In this case it really sucks to not be the original purchaser of the bike. The current owner has two choices to fix the problem - find a reputable pro to do the repair, or do the best they can on their own, appreciating the risk. Others have done it, and reported success. How successful they were remains unknown. But if you have absolutely nothing to lose, and you understand the issues involved, and feel competent enough to do the work, then go for it if you are willing to accept the risk in the foreseeable future. Just don't "fix it", and then unload it on someone else to dump it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

This morning I discovered that Orbea uses a screw on hanger/rear dropout on their Orca frames. That led me to come back and look at the OP's picture again. I now see that the detached part is not part of the dropout, but rather it is a separate insert used to create a flexing pivot point between the chain stay and the seat stay just above the rear axle.

The actual dropout/hanger is mounted by screws on what appears to be a carbon fiber mounting surface integral with the chain stay - the thread end one of the two screws used to attach the dropout/hanger can be seen at the bottom center of the pic. At the top of the carbon fiber extension from the chain stay is the pivot point created by the seat stay insert attachment. 

If that metal insert into the seat stay is NOT Al, then the corrosion concern goes away, and the repair becomes much simpler in concept. The remaining question then is why did the joint fail?


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

ibericb said:


> The glass bead filled epoxies really aren't a good solution for insert bonding situations (rod or shaft in a tube). They were designed to control bondline thickness, and for that they work really well in lap and butt joints. * But with inserts, the bondline is determined by the dimensions of the tube and the insert, not the glass filler in the epoxy. The hard part is maintaining the bondline dimensions uniformly, and not scraping resin off of the surfaces as the parts are mated*. If that happens with an Al-C-fiber joint, then a conduction path between the two parts may remain after curing. Therein lies a big part of the problem.


It might also happen that if there is a bit of misalignment between the part and the hole, it could be that the part would be OK for external alignment and axle placement, but make contact inside of the hole. If that happens, you're back to the galvanic issue. The only way to verify correct internal positioning, I think, would be an x-ray.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ibericb said:


> This morning I discovered that Orbea uses a screw on hanger/rear dropout on their Orca frames. That led me to come back and look at the OP's picture again. I now see that the detached part is not part of the dropout, but rather it is a separate insert used to create a flexing pivot point between the chain stay and the seat stay just above the rear axle.
> 
> The actual dropout/hanger is mounted by screws on what appears to be a carbon fiber mounting surface integral with the chain stay - the thread end one of the two screws used to attach the dropout/hanger can be seen at the bottom center of the pic. At the top of the carbon fiber extension from the chain stay is the pivot point created by the seat stay insert attachment.
> 
> If that metal insert into the seat stay is NOT Al, then the corrosion concern goes away, and the repair becomes much simpler in concept. The remaining question then is why did the joint fail?


As far as I remember from selling Orbea years ago both parts of that dropout are aluminum, both being bonded into their respective stays. No carbon dropouts. The screw that holds the insert in the seatstay to the dropout that's bonded into the chainstay is not actually designed to be a pivot point...there is no bearing. Different size frames using the same parts will require some adjustability in the joint and that's why it's designed that way. Not as a pivot. 
The frame is useless as is. There is no warranty. If it were me, I'd JB Weld that sucker back in and see what happens. If it comes loose again, you're back where you started. Not much chance of that actually coming out of the stay while you're riding.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I'd like the OP to pull out the part and take some close-ups of the bonding surface. I'm curious to see if there is evidence of corrosion or not.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> I'd like the OP to pull out the part and take some close-ups of the bonding surface. I'm curious to see if there is evidence of corrosion or not.


Me too...doesn't really like there is any, right?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> I'd like the OP to pull out the part and take some close-ups of the bonding surface. I'm curious to see if there is evidence of corrosion or not.


That should only be an issue if it's aluminum, which at this point we don't know. Second, since the OP doesn't know how far that insert extends into the seat stay, attempting to pull it free would present a risk of further damage to either the seat stay or chain stay. Finally, assuming it is an aluminum insert, do you know what you are looking for?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> As far as I remember from selling Orbea years ago both parts of that dropout are aluminum, both being bonded into their respective stays. No carbon dropouts. The screw that holds the insert in the seatstay to the dropout that's bonded into the chainstay is not actually designed to be a pivot point...there is no bearing. Different size frames using the same parts will require some adjustability in the joint and that's why it's designed that way. Not as a pivot.
> The frame is useless as is. There is no warranty. If it were me, I'd JB Weld that sucker back in and see what happens. If it comes loose again, you're back where you started. Not much chance of that actually coming out of the stay while you're riding.


You can get a good view of the rear triangle design here. There are actually three parts on each side - the insert into the set stay, the extension of the chain stay, and the dropout itself. Looking at that and the OP's pic, it appears that the Al dropout is screwed onto a carbon extension of the chain stay, and the insert in the seat stay is then also fixed to that same extension. The dropout/hanger that is screwed on is this one, I believe, but the pic has the screws going in from the wrong side (large head is on the carbon side).

In their literature Orbea somewhere referred to that design as a "pivot above the axle". Whether it actually functioned that way or not is beyond me. If it did, I doubt it would eve have moved any noticeable amount. They have since replaced that design.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

mfdemicco said:


> Moisture is necessary in order to cause galvanic corrosion. How can moisture get in there if there is a good epoxy bond (it forms a waterproof seal)? Epoxy is also an electrical insulator.


Because the frame itself is not sealed, water can get in other ways.

FWIW my friend had a problem with her Orbea. She called them up and they sent her a newer model frame directly from Spain.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Me too...doesn't really like there is any, right?


I suspect not, but what do I know? I agree with you that the OP should try a JB Weld repair.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> Because the frame itself is not sealed, water can get in other ways.
> .


Yep, and simple condensation (inside the seat stay in this case) is a common route for water intrusion and accumulation.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> I suspect not, but what do I know? I agree with you that the OP should try a JB Weld repair.


A key question for the OP is what is the frame worth to him if properly repaired? If the answer is not much, then go for it. But, Orbea Orca frames aren't exactly cheap.

If it were my frame, before I would attempt anything I would probably talk with these folks, and maybe these guys too.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Doesn't Orbea have a lifetime warranty on their carbon frames or is that just for the original owner?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ibericb said:


> You can get a good view of the rear triangle design here. There are actually three parts on each side - the insert into the set stay, the extension of the chain stay, and the dropout itself. Looking at that and the OP's pic, it appears that the Al dropout is screwed onto a carbon extension of the chain stay, and the insert in the seat stay is then also fixed to that same extension. The dropout/hanger that is screwed on is this one, I believe, but the pic has the screws going in from the wrong side (large head is on the carbon side).
> 
> In their literature Orbea somewhere referred to that design as a "pivot above the axle". Whether it actually functioned that way or not is beyond me. If it did, I doubt it would eve have moved any noticeable amount. They have since replaced that design.


The frame in the first link your provided is a much newer model than the OP's. There's a chainstay and a seatstay. They both end and have holes that receive alloy parts that are bonded into the frame. The one that goes into the seatstay is nothing more than a piece that allows the seat & chainstays to be bolted together. The one that is bonded into the chainstay is the dropout. NEITHER are carbon, both are aluminum. The 'extension of the chainstay' is aluminum. If they wanted to make it out of carbon, why not just continue the stay in one piece which would be much stronger than a bolted joint?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> The frame in the first link your provided is a much newer model than the OP's. There's a chainstay and a seatstay. They both end and have holes that receive alloy parts that are bonded into the frame. The one that goes into the seatstay is nothing more than a piece that allows the seat & chainstays to be bolted together. The one that is bonded into the chainstay is the dropout. NEITHER are carbon, both are aluminum. The 'extension of the chainstay' is aluminum. If they wanted to make it out of carbon, why not just continue the stay in one piece which would be much stronger than a bolted joint?


Maybe it is Al from the chain stay back, and that would make more sense for ease of building. But when I blow up the OP's pic 4-8 X it looks like a carbon weave pattern showing on the surface adjacent to the hanger up to the pivot. While there are slight differences, the OP's looks to be a very similar design as the one in the reference pic. But in the reference pic I have no idea if that is a carbon section or Al. One part that is interesting in the OP's pic is the Orbea logo that looks somewhat stamped in. That I suspect is a separate insert that was bonded in place after finishing - note the lack of gloss (paint) and the raised lip of the upper half of the stretched O at the left end.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

ibericb said:


> A key question for the OP is what is the frame worth to him if properly repaired? If the answer is not much, then go for it. But, Orbea Orca frames aren't exactly cheap.


As the OP mentioned, the frame was bought 2nd hand and it has seen a good deal of miles.



ibericb said:


> If it were my frame, before I would attempt anything I would probably talk with these folks, and maybe these guys too.


Why do you recommend these shops?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mikerp said:


> Why do you recommend these shops?


RRVelo would be at the top of my list because of their history and experience, the fact that they do repairs involving dropouts and inserts, and they are close enough that the OP could carry the bike to them and discus the options and cost, saving the shipping and guesswork. Ruckus because they also do complex repairs, including making small parts if necessary (dropouts and inserts) to replace damaged ones. They are further away, but not across the country.

As far as miles on the bike go, I'm have no clue how the OP would factor that into value. Would salvaging the bike be worth a $100 repair? Or $200, or $500? There's a line somewhere, which I suspect the OP has in his own mind.

A number of folks here seem to think this it's a fairly simple repair. I don't. I do believe the frame, if properly repaired, still retains value, at least to the current owner.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Maybe it is Al from the chain stay back, and that would make more sense for ease of building. But when I blow up the OP's pic 4-8 X it looks like a carbon weave pattern showing on the surface adjacent to the hanger up to the pivot. While there are slight differences, the OP's looks to be a very similar design as the one in the reference pic. But in the reference pic I have no idea if that is a carbon section or Al. One part that is interesting in the OP's pic is the Orbea logo that looks somewhat stamped in. That I suspect is a separate insert that was bonded in place after finishing - note the lack of gloss (paint) and the raised lip of the upper half of the stretched O at the left end.


The Orbea logo is molded into the ALUMINUM dropout. You can easily see the line where the black painted dropout ends and the carbon tube is visible. You're really overthinking this.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ibericb said:


> Doh! That's what happens when the wife distracts me.
> 
> Thanks! Fixed.


I know. It's tough to right with correct grammer and speling when the wife is giving a bj while you are on RBR.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ibericb said:


> Since you aren't the original purchaser, Orbea probably isn't going to be of much help. But the local Orbea dealer may be, as well as other LBS's.
> 
> Your profile says Sacramento, which may be a good thing. There are several respected names in CA doing carbon frame repair (e.g. Calfee). Ask and check around. This should be a fairly simple repair, like $50-$100 tops.


I vote Calfee. I have been by their shop (if you want to call it that) and it's impressive what they can do.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> The Orbea logo is molded into the ALUMINUM dropout. You can easily see the line where the black painted dropout ends and the carbon tube is visible.



Okay Mr. Wrench - I'll take your word for it. 

As far as the OP's dilemma and any possible fix, it really doesn't matter what the black section is made of. But if it is Al, and the insert bonding failure would be from corrosion, then the other three joints would be highly suspect in my mind.

A couple of sincere questions:

- Why did Orbea put a bolt on Al faceplate on the non-drive rear dropout ( see reference pic posted previously)? I get the bolt-on hanger, but why the mate on the opposite side? 

- How is that insert into the end of the seat stay attached through the dropout? At first I thought it was an Allen bolt, but as I looked at largely zoomed pics (OP and reference), I can't see anything hex. It looks more like a large rivet.



cxwrench said:


> You're really overthinking this.


Please tell that to my wife. She'd get a great laugh on that one (me thinking - ha ha ha ...!).


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

ziscwg said:


> I vote Calfee. I have been by their shop (if you want to call it that) and it's impressive what they can do.


Except, Calfee won't do Al-to-carbon repairs.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

ibericb said:


> Except, Calfee won't do Al-to-carbon repairs.


Humm, I did not know that. I have seen them make a mtb out of wood that could be ridden. So, I would think they could do almost anything.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Okay Mr. Wrench - I'll take your word for it.
> 
> As far as the OP's dilemma and any possible fix, it really doesn't matter what the black section is made of. But if it is Al, and the insert bonding failure would be from corrosion, then the other three joints would be highly suspect in my mind.
> 
> ...


If that dropout and the extensions were one piece imagine how hard it would be to get those extensions into the end of the 2 stays. Think about that for a minute and it should make sense why the dropout is a bolt-together(5mm allen) piece. 



Right?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> If that dropout and the extensions were one piece imagine how hard it would be to get those extensions into the end of the 2 stays. Think about that for a minute and it should make sense why the dropout is a bolt-together(5mm allen) piece.
> 
> 
> 
> Right?


Oh, I understand the advantage of the two-piece design for assembly. That's abundantly clear. But that has nothing to do with either of my two questions.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Oh, I understand the advantage of the two-piece design for assembly. That's abundantly clear. But that has nothing to do with either of my two questions.


ok...here are your 2 questions: 

A couple of sincere questions:
1)
- "Why did Orbea put a bolt on Al faceplate on the non-drive rear dropout ( see reference pic posted previously)? I get the bolt-on hanger, but why the mate on the opposite side?" 

Who knows...that's the way the decided to do it. Why are you so concerned about it? 
2)
- "How is that insert into the end of the seat stay attached through the dropout? At first I thought it was an Allen bolt, but as I looked at largely zoomed pics (OP and reference), I can't see anything hex. It looks more like a large rivet."

I've answered this at least twice...IT'S BOLTED!


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> 1) ... Why are you so concerned about it?
> 
> ...


Not concerned at all, but I am curious.


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## cmdrpiffle (Mar 28, 2006)

JB Weld the damn thing and go ride. Think twice about bonded carbon/aluminum next time.

I'm here to help :thumbsup:


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## lml999 (Apr 22, 2005)

justinsmith91 said:


> Thank you all for your expert advice. It is a used frame that was bought from a shop who had a customer trade the frame in for a new frame set. It has seen plenty of miles. Looks like it is best to try and contact Orbea for a repair.


If you bought it fairly recently, I'd take it back to the shop and trade it for something else. Let it be their problem, not yours. I would not feel comfortable riding that frame. In fact, when I found an issue with a joint on a Colnago Ti frame (carbon seat stays), I sold it (with full disclosure) and will not buy another multi-material frame.


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## tekkamaki (Apr 10, 2007)

I would think that a product like Wesy System G flex would be better than JB Weld if you were attempting this yourself. I would talk with folks who use epoxy in the marine industry to clarify.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

tekkamaki said:


> I would think that a product like Wesy System G flex would be better than JB Weld if you were attempting this yourself. I would talk with folks who use epoxy in the marine industry to clarify.


If you're going to DIY it, the epoxy I would suggest is Scotch-Weld DP-460 from 3M. It is commonly used in carbon fiber composite to metal bonding, including c-fiber bike assembly. It's available from Amazon in the small dispenser size.

JB Weld has a great reputation in rejoining metal-to-metal. The marine guys around here swear by it for metal-to-metal repairs. The problem I have with it is I have never been able to figure out exactly what it is or the properties for various applications. 

A second suggestion would be after cleaning the insert to virgin metal to etch it. For that, the West Two-Step Aluminum etching kit is very convenient.


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## bigjohnla (Mar 29, 2010)

I would use golf club shafting epoxy. If it can keep that head from flying off, it can fix this. Besides cycling, one of my other hobbies is building and repairing clubs for myself and friends. I use an expoy called CONAP. It is available from Golf Works online. I have never had a clubhead come off. The "repairs" have always been broken shafts from some knuckleheads hitting ball washers, golf carts and other solid objects.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

I would not use JB Weld. A proper epoxy with known, and high properties that would absolutely work is WEST System 105, the standard high-end Marine epoxy for secondary bonds like this.
For it or any other epoxy, the alloy would have to be cleaned up. Sanding with medium grit until fully bright then immediately sanding in some of the (mixed) epoxy before even invisible oxidation can occur would do it... then before it cures immediately smear on more epoxy and plug it back in to harden. Def. tape off all the nearby external surfaces.
Nothing more elaborate than that is required here, providing you can fully get at the alloy to prep it all. But you do not want to use a low-strength 1-to-1 epoxy, 5-minute stuff from the hardware store or JB Weld which is a product meant to do a generic range of shade-tree mechanic style repairs. 
WEST is what System G copies, it's the industry standard for marine repairs and is really, really strong stuff with known, quantifiable and published attributes.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

If you want to optimize bond strength, you want to clean, then two-step etch the Al part, then bond. The standard for joining Al to cured C-fiber composites in bicycle frame construction is 3M's DP-460, which is available from Amazon.

The idea of being able to bond faster than oxide formation is a fools errand - the Al oxide layer forms as fast as you can sand it away.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ibericb said:


> If you want to optimize bond strength, you want to clean, then two-step etch the Al part, then bond. The standard for joining Al to cured C-fiber composites in bicycle frame construction is 3M's DP-460, which is available from Amazon.
> 
> The idea of being able to bond faster than oxide formation is a fools errand - the Al oxide layer forms as fast as you can sand it away.


Good tip on the 3M product, best idea is to get the West kit to do the etching? Just in case...


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Good tip on the 3M product, best idea is to get the West kit to do the etching? Just in case...



The West etching kit is probably the easiest way to go, and it does it well.


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## tka (Jun 11, 2014)

thumper8888 said:


> I would not use JB Weld. A proper epoxy with known, and high properties that would absolutely work is WEST System 105, the standard high-end Marine epoxy for secondary bonds like this.
> For it or any other epoxy, the alloy would have to be cleaned up. Sanding with medium grit until fully bright then immediately sanding in some of the (mixed) epoxy before even invisible oxidation can occur would do it... then before it cures immediately smear on more epoxy and plug it back in to harden. Def. tape off all the nearby external surfaces.
> Nothing more elaborate than that is required here, providing you can fully get at the alloy to prep it all. But you do not want to use a low-strength 1-to-1 epoxy, 5-minute stuff from the hardware store or JB Weld which is a product meant to do a generic range of shade-tree mechanic style repairs.
> WEST is what System G copies, it's the industry standard for marine repairs and is really, really strong stuff with known, quantifiable and published attributes.


I agree, WEST System is the standard MARINE laminating epoxy, but we're talking about fixing a bike frame, not a yacht. WEST System is good epoxy but it is compromised to get its outstanding moisture resistance and good pot life/easy working characteristics. One of its biggest issues is that its glass temperature can be reached on a sunny summer day if it is covered with dark paint. I've seen it fail simply due to this. And it is a laminating epoxy, for structural bonding applications like this additives/fillers will be needed. It isn't a big deal, but for someone who hasn't mixed it before it can be difficult to obtain the proper mix of epoxy and fillers to achieve maximum bond strength. 

FWIW WEST is my go-to epoxy for most applications, but I also have Aeropoxy (aerospace grade epoxy) and plenty of twin-tube epoxies that I use as the application calls. For something like this I wouldn't use either the Aeropoxy or West, I'd lean towards the 3M Scotch-Weld DP-460, Loctite Hysol 9460, or JB Weld. These are all structural adhesives and are much easier to work with for a small job like this.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

tka said:


> I agree, WEST System is the standard MARINE laminating epoxy, but we're talking about fixing a bike frame, not a yacht. WEST System is good epoxy but it is compromised to get its outstanding moisture resistance and good pot life/easy working characteristics. One of its biggest issues is that its glass temperature can be reached on a sunny summer day if it is covered with dark paint. I've seen it fail simply due to this. And it is a laminating epoxy, for structural bonding applications like this additives/fillers will be needed. It isn't a big deal, but for someone who hasn't mixed it before it can be difficult to obtain the proper mix of epoxy and fillers to achieve maximum bond strength.
> 
> FWIW WEST is my go-to epoxy for most applications, but I also have Aeropoxy (aerospace grade epoxy) and plenty of twin-tube epoxies that I use as the application calls. For something like this I wouldn't use either the Aeropoxy or West, I'd lean towards the 3M Scotch-Weld DP-460, Loctite Hysol 9460, or JB Weld. These are all structural adhesives and are much easier to work with for a small job like this.


There is much to what you have to say, but a few things...
First, WEST isn't "just" a marine epoxy. There is nothing about its formulation that makes it better or worse for dealing with moisture.
There is nothing magical about aerospace-level epoxies either -- WEST makes its own line, Pro-Set, and I've used a bunch of it But many aerospace epoxies would be improper for this sort of simply amateur use, due to high curing temps, elaborate curing cycles, in some cases issues with being too runny in some cases, incorrect properties for secondary bonds etc.
The standard 105-106 not particularly tricky to mix, they have a decent set of pretty simple plastic pumps etc for that... and the fairly reasonable open time is a plus for someone who's not used to working with it, gives a bit of time to get things right.
It's NOT a laminating epoxy. They have special formulations for that. You can laminate with it, as you can most epoxies with pretty normal viscosity, but in the high-end boat business we use it mainly for secondary bonding, which is what youre talking about here.
Its glass temp is not likely to be an issue in the real world. It is used constantly in black boats in the tropics. (Why anyone would have a black boat boat in a hot climate is a different problem).
For an application like this, it would be plenty thick without additives of any kind. No need to use a silica thickener, for example. It would def close the gap for a bonded-in dropout at standard viscosity. 
Many products would be fine for this. My point mainly was that I would much rather use something with known, reliable properties than something you get from Home Depot that, while it may be just as good, aims itself at Harry Homeowner with a bunch of marketing slogans rather than data about what it can do.
JB Weld may be fine, i just happen to think there isn't a huge gape to close here and 105 without additives would be pretty spot-on in all the needed properties.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

thumper8888 said:


> There is much to what you have to say, but a few things...
> First, WEST isn't "just" a marine epoxy. There is nothing about its formulation that makes it better or worse for dealing with moisture.
> There is nothing magical about aerospace-level epoxies either -- WEST makes its own line, Pro-Set, and I've used a bunch of it But many aerospace epoxies would be improper for this sort of simply amateur use, due to high curing temps, elaborate curing cycles, in some cases issues with being too runny in some cases, incorrect properties for secondary bonds etc.
> The standard 105-106 not particularly tricky to mix, they have a decent set of pretty simple plastic pumps etc for that... and the fairly reasonable open time is a plus for someone who's not used to working with it, gives a bit of time to get things right.
> ...


For this kind of application a toughened resin would generally be recommended. West 105 is a sound basic mixed Bis A/Novolac type epoxy resin, but it isn't toughed. The 3M DP-460 is toughed with the addition of an acrylic-styrene-butadiene copolymer.


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