# whey-protein... always for after?



## tindrum (Mar 5, 2008)

so i picked up a big can of it on the cheap... on the can of powder it says before or after workout but i was under the impression that you should consume the protein after the ride, is this correct for muscle building and repair? any need to really drink the protein pre-ride? also, is there any weight gain associated with this, it seems low-calorie enough that i couldn't see it adding pounds. thanks for any info in advance.:thumbsup:


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## BenWA (Aug 11, 2004)

I personally take it after a ride, and that's only after realllly hard rides that involved tons of hard climbing, sprinting, or other anaerobic work. Take it within 15 minutes of completing a hard workout. 

Taking it before a ride is but a waste of money IMO.

Most whey protein powders have virtually no calories. Shouldn't be a problem as far as maintaining weight, unless you are hitting the weights at the gym and tend to gain muscle easily.


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## reikisport (Aug 16, 2006)

BenWA said:


> I personally take it after a ride, and that's only after realllly hard rides that involved tons of hard climbing, sprinting, or other anaerobic work. Take it within 15 minutes of completing a hard workout.
> 
> Taking it before a ride is but a waste of money IMO.
> 
> Most whey protein powders have virtually no calories. Shouldn't be a problem as far as maintaining weight, unless you are hitting the weights at the gym and tend to gain muscle easily.



Taking wey-portien(or any other protien) on it's own after any workout is a waste of money. 
You want to take a combo of PRO and CHO to help rebuild muscle and restore Glycogen stores(most research shows about 4grams CHO to1gramPRO) So almost all of the recovery drinks out there will do the job or you can mix your own.
Most people who eat a standard western diet probably get more then enough PRO any way(1-2grams per KG of Lean Body Mass is recommended per day). Excess PRO like FAT and CHO is stored as(in) Fat or excreted, so pretty much a waste of money all around.
PRO also contains the same amount of Kcals (per gram) as CHO so yes it has plenty of Kcals. Save your money and get some nice lean meats(or chicken) it's cheaper then the PRO powders and abetter source of PRO.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Typically, the recommended protein intake is Average adult: .8g/kg and Athlete: 1.5 to 2g/kg per day. That's kg of bodymass, too, not lean body mass. Keep in mind this is very general, and covers all types of athletes. Cyclists would most likely be fine at the lower end of the range with 1.5g/kg. 

After endurance training, it probably is best to take in the 4:1 carb to protein ratio in liquid form, because this is absorbed quickest, but some research shows that the ratio doesn't matter as much as just total calories consumed. Whey protein is a great source of protein because it's low in fat and is more digestible than any other form of protein (including all other plant and animal sources). 

As far as timing goes, I don't think you'd see any acute performance benefits to drinking a whey shake immediately before training. It's better used in the time after training (not necessarily _immediately_ following) to get the recommended amount that will promote optimal muscle rebuilding following your training.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

BenWA said:


> Most whey protein powders have virtually no calories.


Whaaaaa???? Mine uses Splenda as a sweetener and still has about 140 calories per scoop (about 60 grams of protein before the milk)...I usually use 2 scoops with fruit and milk for a breakfast replacement. Probably over 500 cals right there, but a lot of protein if you need it.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

tindrum said:


> so i picked up a big can of it on the cheap... on the can of powder it says before or after workout but i was under the impression that you should consume the protein after the ride, is this correct for muscle building and repair? any need to really drink the protein pre-ride? also, is there any weight gain associated with this, it seems low-calorie enough that i couldn't see it adding pounds. thanks for any info in advance.:thumbsup:


I've seen no real evidence that any extra protein is helpful for an endurance athlete with a normal diet. The famous (infamous?) Hammer study failed to take into account the extra calories.

Also, protein has the same calories per weight as sugar.

TF


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

TurboTurtle said:


> I've seen no real evidence that any extra protein is helpful for an endurance athlete with a normal diet. The famous (infamous?) Hammer study failed to take into account the extra calories.
> 
> Also, protein has the same calories per weight as sugar.
> 
> TF


I think it's only a factor if you're protein deficient. Those who eat meat probably get plenty of protein already. It can also be a cheap method of getting your daily protein requirements--one shake in the morning with 60 grams of protein is like eating a couple chicken breasts protein-wise.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> I think it's only a factor if you're protein deficient. Those who eat meat probably get plenty of protein already. It can also be a cheap method of getting your daily protein requirements--one shake in the morning with 60 grams of protein is like eating a couple chicken breasts protein-wise.


Except those using protein suppliments instead of 'food' protein would probably also be the first to scream about the "empty calories" of a pure carbohydrate. - TF


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

If you're involved in an activity that results in protein breakdown, then you need extra protein. To the endurance athlete, this includes any long-duration training in which the body is more likely to break down protein as an energy source (albeit a very small, but still measurable amount). It also includes high-intensity riding that could cause some microtrauma to the muscle fibers themselves (similar to resistance training on a much smaller scale, but the repetition tends to be higher). 

My point is, even endurance athletes have greater protein needs than the average, sedentary person. Whey is a good supplement for this cause because it's cheap and digests better than other proteins.


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

I think if you have a clean diet you are probably getting plenty of protein anyway. For cyclists I think carbs/glycogen is more important to replenish, at least from what I have read.

Doing the math I'm already getting more protein than the equation and that's not adding protein in anywhere.

Once your whey is gone, drink chocolate milk as a recovery drink :thumbsup:


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## reikisport (Aug 16, 2006)

Andrea138 said:


> Typically, the recommended protein intake is Average adult: .8g/kg and Athlete: 1.5 to 2g/kg per day. That's kg of bodymass, too, not lean body mass. Keep in mind this is very general, and covers all types of athletes. Cyclists would most likely be fine at the lower end of the range with 1.5g/kg.
> 
> Andrea you are correct. I ment per LB Body mass.
> But I would like to add that there is some evidence that 1.5 gm might be on low (even for endurance athlete) side.
> ...


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Eating anything other than a gel or a light piece of fruit less than two hours before
a ride inevitably upsets my stomach. I would think that whey protein should definitely
not be eaten immediately proceeding a hard ride, right?


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

reikisport said:


> Andrea138 said:
> 
> 
> > Typically, the recommended protein intake is Average adult: .8g/kg and Athlete: 1.5 to 2g/kg per day. That's kg of bodymass, too, not lean body mass. Keep in mind this is very general, and covers all types of athletes. Cyclists would most likely be fine at the lower end of the range with 1.5g/kg.
> ...



Yeah, I actually shoot more for 2g/kg, but, trying to encourage endurance athletes to put down the pasta for a protein shake can be like trying to heard cats. 

Creatine hasn't been proven to help endurance athletes much except in situations where they need a very fast, anaerobic burst. Many times a side effect of creatine is water weight gain (from storage of more creatine in the muscle), so it's possible that while it could give them a boost for anaerobic bursts, that could be negated by the ~5 pounds of weight gain that some people experience when the supplement with it. 
From personal experience, I use it in the off-season while I'm lifting weights, and it makes me gain about 5 pounds. My training partner, who is trying to improve his "snap" on attacks and sprints, just started using it, and hasn't gained any weight (actually lost a pound over the last week).


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Andrea138 said:


> put down the pasta for a protein shake


get this instead of regular pasta and you have both at the same time










<img src=https://www.barillaus.com/Home/PublishingImages/Plus_protein_chart_V2.gif>


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

isn't the argument that a 4:1 carb/protein ratio is optimal for glycogen storage after exercise. A higher amount of protein results in less glycogen storage, whereas 4:1 results in much more (I've seen reports of +100%) glycogen storage vs. carbohydrates alone. Endurox works for me if I want a drink, or a peanut butter/jelly sandwich


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Understanding the research*



stevesbike said:


> isn't the argument that a 4:1 carb/protein ratio is optimal for glycogen storage after exercise. A higher amount of protein results in less glycogen storage, whereas 4:1 results in much more (I've seen reports of +100%) glycogen storage vs. carbohydrates alone.


You should know that the famous "4:1" ratio comes from a study that compared carb only to a 4 carb, 1 protein snack. They looked at no other ratio, so you don't know if 4:1 is optimum, only that it is better than carbs only. Andrew Coogan, who seems knowledgeable on the topic, recommends 10:1 (just a bit of protein in a high carb snack).

BTW, there's no quality data supporting protein intake above 0.7 gm/lb (1.5 gm/kg) of body mass for endurance athletes. (Nancy Clark, RD, Adventure Cyclist, July 2001).



benWA said:


> Most whey protein powders have virtually no calories.


Uh, no. Carbohydrates are 4 calories per gram. Protein is 4 calories per gram. How you get from 4 calories per gram to "virtually no calories" is a mystery to me.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Yeah, I'm not 100% sold on the 4:1 thing, but, as I've said before, there's nothing that says it'll hurt you, so you might as well go for it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I agree-I use Endurox mostly because it tastes pretty good after a ride (at least the fruit punch), it doesn't cause stomach distress, and I figure the bit of protein likely isn't hurting in the worst case. It is pretty amazing how poor nutritional science is with respect to optimizing post-exercise recovery. In pubmed, I see a few hundred papers on the subject, but none are particularly well designed or conclusive.


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## saccycling (Sep 30, 2004)

*whey vs soy*

I was at the lbs today. The manager recomended accelerade sport drink. It has the 4 carbs to 1 protein. I asked what kind of protein. And he read the label and whey protein was listed. Its my understanding that you don't want whey protein before or during excercise. Something about your body producing amonia and its not good for the muscles.


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## reikisport (Aug 16, 2006)

[
Creatine hasn't been proven to help endurance athletes much except in situations where they need a very fast, anaerobic burst. Many times a side effect of creatine is water weight gain (from storage of more creatine in the muscle), so it's possible that while it could give them a boost for anaerobic bursts, that could be negated by the ~5 pounds of weight gain that some people experience when the supplement with it. 


Yes thats why I was surprised by this when I heard it. but according to Dave Sandler and a presenter at the Maine State NSCA conference both (different seminars & both presenters had extensive nutrition backgrounds ) suggested that as an aid to recovery it had shown promise for endurance athletes. This was not a take it every day type of thing but only as part of the recovery process after hard training /racing. Just something to think about.
As far as the 4:1 it's kind of gotten to be like the drink 8 glasses of water/day thing there isn't much reseach but it seems to be almost written in stone.
There was some talk of a study done by the Cooper Institue that showed the need for a higher amount of PRO also. Not sure what happened with that all I heard (from one of the PHDs) was the he was even surprised on how much above the norm endurence athletes needed.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

reikisport said:


> Yes thats why I was surprised by this when I heard it. but according to Dave Sandler and a presenter at the Maine State NSCA conference both (different seminars & both presenters had extensive nutrition backgrounds ) suggested that as an aid to recovery it had shown promise for endurance athletes. This was not a take it every day type of thing but only as part of the recovery process after hard training /racing. Just something to think about.


OT- Are you going to the NSCA conference in Vegas? I'm poster presenting my crappy thesis research.


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## reikisport (Aug 16, 2006)

Andrea138 said:


> OT- Are you going to the NSCA conference in Vegas? I'm poster presenting my crappy thesis research.




Good Luck What is it on?

No. Can't make it too much $$$$$$$$$
Besides I can only handle so much talking about exercise it wears me out!


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Personal experience with Creatine...all it did was bloat me. Didn't help with weights in any measurable way.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

reikisport said:


> Good Luck What is it on?
> 
> No. Can't make it too much $$$$$$$$$
> Besides I can only handle so much talking about exercise it wears me out!


I was looking for correlations between things like strength/body composition and drop vertical jump performance from different starting heights. 

Now I travel to Vegas just to let everyone know that I didn't find sh*t!


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## reikisport (Aug 16, 2006)

Well somebody had to figure it out. Other wise we would be left wondering
Good luck


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## kevvwill (Jun 1, 2004)

Remember that it's about your body. There are no absolute rules with anything. If you, like me, are an athlete that has high muscle breakdown rates during riding/working out, you will need different things to recover than athletes that don't have those same complexities. Experiment, keep a training log, and eventually you will find something that works for you.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

That "info" is in Hammer Nutrition's bag of tricks. I wouldn't regard it as the Bible.....


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Personal experience with Creatine...all it did was bloat me. Didn't help with weights in any measurable way.


It will not "bloat" you unless you start with a loading phase. The the so called bloating is withing the muscles itself, not under the skin which will make you look flat and percived as bloating.

If taken right, it will help most people with strength traing or any other tyep of explosive movements withing sports.

I first used the stuff properly, I gained close to 10lbs in 7-9 days. Bench press and squat went up 50 and 125lbs within as month.

I was no longer expercing lactid acid build up and was able to truly train my muscles to failure. ie, much better results.

Creatine will help an endurance athlete. But Track Sprinters can see nice results.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Having a little before a strenous workout or ride can aid in the breakdown of muscle. Keeps you from waisting away too quickly. If you really trying too keep or put on some muscle, then I reccomend a small portion. Maybe aroun .5-.75g per KG of BW.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

kevvwill said:


> Remember that it's about your body. There are no absolute rules with anything. If you, like me, are an athlete that has high muscle breakdown rates during riding/working out, you will need different things to recover than athletes that don't have those same complexities. Experiment, keep a training log, and eventually you will find something that works for you.


Yeah, you kinda nailed it there. Everyone is different and has different needs.


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> It will not "bloat" you unless you start with a loading phase. The the so called bloating is withing the muscles itself, not under the skin which will make you look flat and percived as bloating.
> 
> If taken right, it will help most people with strength traing or any other tyep of explosive movements withing sports.
> 
> ...


I really have to take exception to your attributing your radical weight gain and poundage increases to only Creatine. I realize most folks here are not bodybuilders, but there
ain't no way your bench went up 50 lbs in one month from creatine alone. Either you
were in the beginning stages of bodybuilding, and other variables of nutrition were
factoring into your equation, or you altered or increased your intensity levels significantly
over your baseline.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

> phoehn9111 said:
> 
> 
> > I really have to take exception to your attributing your radical weight gain and poundage increases to only Creatine.
> ...


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## *A-Train* (May 28, 2008)

Creatine worked the same way for me, both increasing my poundages and my work output. But it made me break out like a teenager so I stopped taking it. 

As far as protein goes, I'm one of those people who function better w/ a higher protein diet. I have an afternoon smoothie w/ a protein blend 
http://www.nutritionexpress.com/protein/multi+protein+blends/lindberg+protein+blend+vanilla+2+pounds.aspx
that's mixed with unsweetened soy milk, water, ice, and 1/2 cup frozen berries (the "Very Cherry" mix). But after I ride it's a glass of milk and a banana 

then an hour later it's dinner (lean protein, vegis, carbs)


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

*A-Train* said:


> Creatine worked the same way for me, both increasing my poundages and my work output. But it made me break out like a teenager so I stopped taking it.


Physiologically speaking, there's nothing in or about creatine that will make you break out. Maybe staying in the gym longer, sweating more, etc., but the storage of extra creatine the muscle won't do it.


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## *A-Train* (May 28, 2008)

Could be... but CLA did the same thing. I have thenthitive skin


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## B15serv (Apr 27, 2008)

So what is a good thing to take to help improve cycling performance?


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Lots of riding and a healthy diet


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*A-Train* said:


> Could be... but CLA did the same thing. I have thenthitive skin


CLA did it. Its a FAT. A healthy one, but a fat. Creatine will not give you acne.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Damn, this is almost like one of those steroid forums. This is kind of what is meant by a "doper's mentality."

My advice, eat healthy, train, get your rest/sleep. Take a multi vitamin just to be sure.

Like another poster said, ride hard then drink a big glass of chocolate milk. There's your carbs and protein right there.

Or you could do a deca/winstrol stack and not neglect the test because the deca may affect your performance on a "date" if you get my drift...

Creatine????? Please.... You really want to get on that slippery slope?

Whey protein? How about a nice big breakfast after your ride. Some eggs, fruit, toast......

What does a dozen eggs and a half gallon of milk cost, or a steak even? You're gonna waste your money on a can of whey protein? That stuff is designed to do one thing? Make Joe Weider or GNC or one of these charlatans money.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

lookrider said:


> Creatine????? Please.... You really want to get on that slippery slope?


I hope you're being very sarcastic


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Andrea138 said:


> I hope you're being very sarcastic


Somewhat, but there is a huge placebo effect with this stuff. And it is a slippery slope, because you start believing in the scientifically unsupported effects of it..

As for the gains claimed for creatine here, the person taking it, knew they were taking it.

And if those "gains" are true, were they water weight, and are they healthy for the body?

A healthy diet is the best bet....You may think the other stuff is worth it. I don't.....


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## Dr_John (Oct 11, 2005)

A visit to Pubmed shows there are a lot of peer-reviewed scientific studies on whey-protein and creatine out there. Here's a good one: 



> The Effects of Creatine and Whey Protein Supplementation on Body Composition in Men Aged 48 to 72 Years during Resistance Training.


For geezers like me. The conclusion:


> The results from this study suggest that supplementation with creatine, whey protein, or a combination of creatine and whey protein, when combined with resistance training in middleaged men, have no added benefit to changes that occur to body composition due to resistance training alone.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

lookrider said:


> Damn, this is almost like one of those steroid forums. This is kind of what is meant by a "doper's mentality."
> 
> My advice, eat healthy, train, get your rest/sleep. Take a multi vitamin just to be sure.
> 
> ...


You had some good point until you said this:


> You're gonna waste your money on a can of whey protein? That stuff is designed to do one thing? Make Joe Weider or GNC or one of these charlatans money.


Then you proved you don't know what you are talking about, including the Deca thing.

Whey is a excellent and easliy asslimlited protein with the highest biological rating. Btetr than meat or eggs? Maybe a lab says so, but all QUALITY sources of protein are excellent. Just whey is easier to digest.


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Actually whey is behind Lactalbumin in assimilation effeciency. And while I admit that
the whole supplement market is pretty outrageous, I am not ready to get on the chocolate milk and eggs bandwagon. That kind of recklessness would give many people a cholesterol problem. I do believe some engineered foods can offer enhanced 
nutrition with less undesirable components. Joe Louis ate a half gallon of ice cream
every day and ended up dying of heart disease in his 50's.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

phoehn9111 said:


> Actually whey is behind Lactalbumin in assimilation effeciency. And while I admit that
> the whole supplement market is pretty outrageous, I am not ready to get on the chocolate milk and eggs bandwagon. That kind of recklessness would give many people a cholesterol problem. I do believe some engineered foods can offer enhanced
> nutrition with less undesirable components. Joe Louis ate a half gallon of ice cream
> every day and ended up dying of heart disease in his 50's.


Joseph Louis Barrow (May 13, 1914 – April 12, 1981),

a half gallon of ice cream a day is a little different than drinking a glass of chocolate milk after riding your bike for a couple of hours....The same with 4 to 6 eggs a week. 

Yes, you're right, I was off on the whey protein thing....


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Creatine is one of the few supplements that's been proven to work in a multitude of double-blind, placebo controlled studies. One of my coworkers wrote his dissertation on the stuff.


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## Cog Neato (Sep 5, 2006)

As I've increased my milage and intensity lately, I thought I'd ask a guy at a local supplement store (yes, one of those places that largely serves body-builders) what might be helpful to me as a cyclist. (I stressed that we cyclists do NOT want to get "big").

He suggested Progressive VegeGreens (once a day before breakfast), and a whey protein powder once or twice a day (Allmax IsoFlex).

I use Gatorade on rides longer than 2 hours.

Any thoughts on this approach? Are the "Meathead" types in the supplement industry out of touch with cyclists particular needs?

Thanks


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