# 5800 vs 9000



## saab2000

Anyone have the new 105 stuff? I have some experience with the 9000 on a couple bikes and generally like it. Curious about experiences with the 5800 and if there's any real world difference beyond the obvious weight penalty.


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## nhluhr

saab2000 said:


> Anyone have the new 105 stuff? I have some experience with the 9000 on a couple bikes and generally like it. Curious about experiences with the 5800 and if there's any real world difference beyond the obvious weight penalty.


One important difference I can point to is the chain. The CN-HG900-11 chain that has now replaced the discontinued CN-9000 has their "sil-tec" plating on inner links, outer links, and rollers while the CN-HG600-11 chain that is part of the 105 group is Sil-Tec on only the inner link plates. That'll result in faster wear and higher friction when compared to the HG900 and HG700 (new Ultegra chain, replacing the CN-6800). Personally, I'd just choose the HG900 chain no matter what 11spd drivetrain I'm using.

Other significant things include the availability of a GS rear derailleur which allows for the 32t cassette - whereas the RD-9000-SS can only handle a 28t cassette (by spec of course... lots of people I'm sure will make it work with bigger cassettes but it's outside of 'optimal' for the derailleur's parallelogram then).

Beyond that, it's almost all refinement - things like anodized (9000) vs painted (5800) or carbon (9000) vs aluminum or steel (5800) and then bearings in the levers, etc, and of course weight (5800 weighs a full pound more than 9000 excluding wheels/hubs from the equation which makes it an even bigger difference). It's a very common misconception that Dura-Ace is less durable but it's all the finshes and metallurgical differences that specifically make it the opposite. Granted, it hurts a lot more when something does wear out since it costs a lot more so you could argue the value isn't as good and I'd not dispute that.


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## TricrossRich

I have both DA9000 on my Venge and 105 5800 on my Allez Comp.

Honeslty, the 5800 is very nice... the only things I changed are the crankset and the brakes. The Allez comes with an FSA crank set so I swapped on an Ultegra 6800 crankset to use my Stages power meter and I swapped the stock Axis brakes for Ultegra 6700 brakes that I had laying around. In terms of use, there's not a huge difference. The basic ergonomics feel pretty similar in terms of lever shape and hood shape, but there's definitely a different feel in the DA levers when you pull them. The feeling is very exact, very precise. I think that comes from the level of tolerances used in the parts. The 5800 works well... the FD shifts well and so does the back, definitely not as quick and precise as the DA9000, but not slow or clunky by any means. 

I think that if you have the money and you appreciate nice things.. the DA9000 will not leave you disappointed. I think that if money is tighter and you just want something that gets the job done, then the 5800 is perfect. It really is a great set up. Obviously, 6800 fills the gap between them and probably offers the best BANG for the buck.


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## saab2000

Thanks. Appreciate the answers. I just picked up a nearly NOS frameset and I'm sort of trying to figure out how to build it up. The 9000 looks great and works very well. I'm pretty pleased with it. Sounds like the 5800 is nearly the same but with the expected differences.

I appreciate the thoughts of those of you who have actually used both.


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## Zampano

saab2000, you know the drill. On _long and hard_ rides you will very much appreciate the smooth fineness of the higher end group. For bang'em up shorter rides, small difference. A long time Record guy should know that   .


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## kbwh

The shifting feedback is crisper on the 9000 than on the 5800. More Campagnolo-like.


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## taodemon

I'm haven't used the 5800 or 9000 so what I'm saying might not be quite as useful. I have 5700 on my bike, and while it was getting a tuneup done I did two rides on my dad's bike which has the 6800. The difference was pretty noticeable right from the start, crisper shifts, less force required for the shifts to take place. When it really hit though was when I went back to my bike, it felt like I was wrestling with the shifters to change gears. I'm used to my 5700 again but definitely want to upgrade now. 

Now maybe 5800 has improved from 5700 but I still imagine the jump to 6800 or 9000 would be pretty noticeable, and as a bonus they weight less.


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## MMsRepBike

kbwh said:


> The shifting feedback is crisper on the 9000 than on the 5800. More Campagnolo-like.


9000 is more campy like? Really? Have you ridden campy? And 9000? They're about as far apart as it gets. One has positive strong feedback and snap, the other you can hardly even tell it's doing anything. Needless to say I disagree with you completely.

To the thread topic:

The rear shifting is almost identical.
The braking is almost identical.
The front shifting is noticeably better on 9000.

If you run an Ultegra cassette/chain/crank you'll have a better drivetrain. All three of those have noticeable improvements over the 105. The front derailleur is where the biggest difference can be had though. The 9000 is far superior to the 6800 or 5800 and it's always been this way with Shimano, the FD is the lower groups weak link.

And never run 9000/6800/5800 levers with older brakes like another guy in this thread. That's a problem. The cable pull ratio is different and doing so really hampers your ability to use the brakes to their potential.

I have a full 5800 group on a bike and it works very well. Changing the FD, crank, chain and cassette are good ideas and will net me slight improvements but it's not necessary. I will switch to Ultegra chains and cassettes when the first ones wear out. I might switch to a 9000 FD when the cable wears on this one down the line.


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## TricrossRich

MMsRepBike said:


> And never run 9000/6800/5800 levers with older brakes like another guy in this thread. That's a problem. The cable pull ratio is different and doing so really hampers your ability to use the brakes to their potential.



I'm assuming you're referring to me and I'd love for you to be more specific. I've got over 1300 miles on the set up now, including some crit races and fast descents and I've yet to experience anything that "hampers my ability to use the brakes to their potential." 



taodemon said:


> I'm haven't used the 5800 or 9000 so what I'm saying might not be quite as useful. I have 5700 on my bike, and while it was getting a tuneup done I did two rides on my dad's bike which has the 6800. The difference was pretty noticeable right from the start, crisper shifts, less force required for the shifts to take place. When it really hit though was when I went back to my bike, it felt like I was wrestling with the shifters to change gears. I'm used to my 5700 again but definitely want to upgrade now.
> 
> Now maybe 5800 has improved from 5700 but I still imagine the jump to 6800 or 9000 would be pretty noticeable, and as a bonus they weight less.


I've used 5700, 6700, 5800, 6800 and 9000 and I can tell you that the jump from the 10 speed generation up to the 11 speed generation is very big... not matter which market segment you're looking at... 

As I ride the new 105 more and more, it continues to impress me more and more. its really outstanding bang for the buck. I will agree though the FD on the 9000 leaves all of the other groups in the dust.


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## MMsRepBike

TricrossRich said:


> I'm assuming you're referring to me and I'd love for you to be more specific. I've got over 1300 miles on the set up now, including some crit races and fast descents and I've yet to experience anything that "hampers my ability to use the brakes to their potential."


 sure, here's a nice video for you.






It gets a little cloudy. If you look at the 6700 brakes, they are clearly the older style brakes. The levers are considered the newer levers though. So by definition of this video a 6700 group is not optimal. So their trick of just looking to see if the cables run under the tape or not does not apply to Shimano 5700/6700/7900. Those groups are not SLR-EV but their cables run under the tape. 

From what I can see the 10 speed generation are just super SLR only. The SLR-EV didn't come until 11 speed. What's important is to not mix SLR-EV and non SLR-EV parts. The 6700 brakes, as shown, are not SLR-EV.


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## TricrossRich

MMsRepBike said:


> sure, here's a nice video for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It gets a little cloudy. If you look at the 6700 brakes, they are clearly the older style brakes. The levers are considered the newer levers though. So by definition of this video a 6700 group is not optimal. So their trick of just looking to see if the cables run under the tape or not does not apply to Shimano 5700/6700/7900. Those groups are not SLR-EV but their cables run under the tape.
> 
> From what I can see the 10 speed generation are just super SLR only. The SLR-EV didn't come until 11 speed. What's important is to not mix SLR-EV and non SLR-EV parts. The 6700 brakes, as shown, are not SLR-EV.


right... except the video is suggesting you not run older levers with newer calipers, not the other way around.

All of the research I did, suggested this was the real issue, running newer calipers with older levers.


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## nhluhr

The cable pull ratio changed between 7800/6600/5600 and 7900/6700/5700 generations. There was not a cable pull ratio difference of note in the 11spd updates. There is some geometry change in the lever which might result in different ramp rates for leverage but it's not significant enough to create incompatibility. The real change is that the newer levers are easier to grip from the hoods thanks to these geometry changes up front. 

The improved braking power of the newest calipers (9000, 6800, 5800) is not a cable pull difference but rather an improvement to the pivot geometry in the caliper to improve caliper stiffness, supposed improvements to the caliper pivot bearings, and a reduction in cable friction thanks to the poly coat cables. The only thing you really need to be concerned about is using the new poly cables with the old brakes since the new brakes fixing bolt which allows it to clamp more securely onto the slicker cable. The best practice for using old brakes with new cables is to scrape that poly coating off near the fixing bolt is and being sure to use the high side of the torque range on the old bolt.

Here is the most recent 2015-2016 compatibility lineup for Road brake systems from si.shimano.com:










You'll notice it groups all levers of 5700-up as a single compatibility group. 6700 isn't listed because it's not offered as a current product anymore so Shimano removed it from their list. This means levers and calipers from 5700, 6700, 7900 are all compatible with levers and calipers from 5800, 6800, and 9000.

The chart does indeed tell you that using the newer generation levers (that's 5700/6700/7900/5800/6800/9000) with 2-gen-older style brakes you will have decreased braking force (in this diagram, the BR-R650, but would be equivalent to BR-5600, BR 6600, etc). That decrease is due to the cable pull difference on those older models but they are still listed as functional. The calipers they tell you to NOT use are v-brake type models for hybrids/etc.

Here's a quote from one of the admin's on Shimano's S-TEC training discussion forum:


> The wound polymer coating on the BC9000 and R680 inner cable is considerably slipperier than the previous style of smooth polymer sheathing. So these cables are to be used only on the latest generation of cable-pull brakes that have been produced after 2014. These production runs have a cable clamp with increased "bite" on the inner cable.


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## MMsRepBike

TricrossRich said:


> right... except the video is suggesting you not run older levers with newer calipers, not the other way around.
> 
> All of the research I did, suggested this was the real issue, running newer calipers with older levers.


That's part of what they say. They say it's dangerous and strictly recommended against with old levers and new calipers.

However it says this about your setup:
"...the lever feel is very firm and lacks power and modulation. It isn't as dangerous as an old lever with a new brake, but it's obviously less than ideal."

and I said: "...doing so really hampers your ability to use the brakes to their potential."


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## TricrossRich

MMsRepBike said:


> However it says this about your setup:
> "...the lever feel is very firm and lacks power and modulation. It isn't as dangerous as an old lever with a new brake, but it's obviously less than ideal."
> 
> and I said: "...doing so really hampers your ability to use the brakes to their potential."


I suppose that comes down to one's own perception of "lacks power and modulation" but my set up aaffords me all of the power and modulation I need and I wouldn't say that it offers me any less power and modulation than the full DA9000 set up that I run on my Venge. For all intents and purposes the bikes very extremely similar in terms of braking. When I was in Hawaii, I rented a Scott Addict that had Ultegra 6800... the brakes on that bike SUCKED! I don't believe they were Ultegra calipers, perhaps Scott's in-house brand or something.. that is the only bike that I've ever been on that I didn't feel comfortable with the brakes. I'm definitely familiar with what inadequate brakes feel like and my Allez doesn't fall into the class. That being said, I would like to upgrade them at some point, DA9000 calipers would look great on the black Allez. I was thinking about putting some ee brakes on the Venge and moving the DA brakes to the Allez.


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## 5DII

MMsRepBike said:


> The front derailleur is where the biggest difference can be had though. The 9000 is far superior to the 6800 or 5800 and it's always been this way with Shimano, the FD is the lower groups weak link.


I used 6800 for a few thousands miles and now 9000 for a hundred miles, and the FD action feel essentially identical on both


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## Typetwelve

TricrossRich said:


> I've used 5700, 6700, 5800, 6800 and 9000 and I can tell you that the jump from the 10 speed generation up to the 11 speed generation is very big... not matter which market segment you're looking at...
> 
> As I ride the new 105 more and more, it continues to impress me more and more. its really outstanding bang for the buck. I will agree though the FD on the 9000 leaves all of the other groups in the dust.


I will flat come out and admit it...I've never had the chance to ride DA anything.

With that aside...I have spent time with 5600/6600, 5700/6700 and now the 5800. I really couldn't tell the difference between the Ultegra/105 flavors of the 600 and 700 line and believe you me, if the 6700 had been a better riding package, I would have gone to it. I've always felt the 600 series was better than the 700, truth be told. I think Shimano never got the under wrap cable routing on the 700 line right.

The 5800? Hands down...the 5800 is better than anything I've ever used...by a HUGE margin.

My last setup was:

5700: shifters, front/rear derail
6700: Chain, cassette
6800: brakes
FSA crank -w- Praxis rings.

I went to to the 6800 brakes last year and they were a nice improvement over the 5700 brakes (note I said nice...not huge as some claim). I bough them before the 5800 hit the market or else I would have just bought the 5800 brakes. By what I've read, save some fit/finish the 5800/6800/9000 brakes are essentially the same. I will say...everyone said to get a 6700 chain cassette. When I did back in 2013...it made zero difference performance wise (as I expected figuring the 6700 performed so closely to the 5700).

Swapping the shifters, front/rear derail, chain and cassette to 5800 (as well as the cables)...the improvement is staggering. I had my first ride on the set Tuesday night and I literally kept telling myself "wow". The rear shifting is just beautiful. No dragging, no hesitating, just push the lever and it goes. Half the time it doesn't even make a sound where as the 5700 would crack through my carbon frame more often than not. The front shifting is also FAR improved. The most notable part is the fact that I can now simply push the lever momentarily and it does it's job (when shifting small to large). The 5700 I had to "shift and hold" for it to bite, even when new it was like this. I'll admit, it's not flawless (as I've heard the DA 9000 is up in front)...but it is far better than what I had with the 5700 stuff.

Even my crank feels smooth...it always had this odd vibration to it, it would transfer through the pedals. Swapping to the Praxis rings did make a slight difference, but it was always there. I wrote it off to my FSA crank. Well...going to the 5800 group, that's now gone. To be 100% honest, this was not something I was expecting...it's a bonus I guess...

"downgrading" from a Ultegra chain and cassette to a new 105 chain/cassette...I thought I might actually lose some smooth transfer. Nope.


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## nhluhr

Typetwelve said:


> I really couldn't tell the difference between the Ultegra/105 flavors of the 600 and 700 line and believe you me, if the 6700 had been a better riding package, I would have gone to it.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Swapping the shifters, front/rear derail, chain and cassette to 5800 (as well as the cables)...the improvement is staggering. I had my first ride on the set Tuesday night and I literally kept telling myself "wow". The rear shifting is just beautiful. No dragging, no hesitating, just push the lever and it goes. Half the time it doesn't even make a sound where as the 5700 would crack through my carbon frame more often than not. The front shifting is also FAR improved. The most notable part is the fact that I can now simply push the lever momentarily and it does it's job (when shifting small to large). The 5700 I had to "shift and hold" for it to bite, even when new it was like this. I'll admit, it's not flawless (as I've heard the DA 9000 is up in front)...but it is far better than what I had with the 5700 stuff.


Agree on the smoothness and ease of shifting with the new groups. The leverage is so nice and the low-friction cables make it night and day. I never had an issue with shift effort on the 5700-7900 groups before but it's kind of like perspective - once you've felt the new stuff you really notice it going back and forth.

Having DA9000 on my main bike and having setup/worked-on several bikes with 6800/5800 at the shop the main things I see different (aside from obvious weight/materials things) is the trim position on the 9000 seems to work better. I have no idea if this is attributable to the FD or the front shifter. On the customer bikes, that trim position in the small ring is a bit hesitant like you have to slightly over-push the lever past the click (but not into the big ring position) to get it to really work well - and this includes the careful setting of the converter position after measuring cable line per instructions.

Now with that said, I still have a mostly-6700 bike and then a full 7900 bike. One notable thing is that the 7900 bike has the new poly cables instead of the normal PTFE cables. The 7900's shift effort feels much easier than the 6700 setup and easier than the 7900 felt when it had PTFE cables. I feel like one of the best bang for the buck upgrades people can make with the prior groups is the new genuine shimano cable sets with the proper housings, ferrules, etc to protect the poly coating. The customer bikes above are using the bike brand supplied cables/housing/ferrules which are not full shimano spec. They are usually the poly cables but then are missing the nippled plastic tips on the ferrules. The factory bikes also come without the little support plate installed or the screw turned in for braze-on front derailleurs. I guess what I'm saying is the new group works amazingly well but the setup might depend more than ever on full system integrated supporting parts to work its best and it certainly is subject to sub-par shops who forget to install the FD support bolt plate.


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## Typetwelve

nhluhr said:


> Agree on the smoothness and ease of shifting with the new groups. The leverage is so nice and the low-friction cables make it night and day. I never had an issue with shift effort on the 5700-7900 groups before but it's kind of like perspective - once you've felt the new stuff you really notice it going back and forth.
> 
> Having DA9000 on my main bike and having setup/worked-on several bikes with 6800/5800 at the shop the main things I see different (aside from obvious weight/materials things) is the trim position on the 9000 seems to work better. I have no idea if this is attributable to the FD or the front shifter. On the customer bikes, that trim position in the small ring is a bit hesitant like you have to slightly over-push the lever past the click (but not into the big ring position) to get it to really work well - and this includes the careful setting of the converter position after measuring cable line per instructions.
> 
> Now with that said, I still have a mostly-6700 bike and then a full 7900 bike. One notable thing is that the 7900 bike has the new poly cables instead of the normal PTFE cables. The 7900's shift effort feels much easier than the 6700 setup and easier than the 7900 felt when it had PTFE cables. I feel like one of the best bang for the buck upgrades people can make with the prior groups is the new genuine shimano cable sets with the proper housings, ferrules, etc to protect the poly coating. The customer bikes above are using the bike brand supplied cables/housing/ferrules which are not full shimano spec. They are usually the poly cables but then are missing the nippled plastic tips on the ferrules. The factory bikes also come without the little support plate installed or the screw turned in for braze-on front derailleurs. I guess what I'm saying is the new group works amazingly well but the setup might depend more than ever on full system integrated supporting parts to work its best and it certainly is subject to sub-par shops who forget to install the FD support bolt plate.


My road bike is a '12 Tarmac...and as stated before, it was a 5700 equipped factory bike. I'll be 100% honest and admit that swapping the cables was something that crossed my mind on occasion..but I never did (Specialized used Jagwire cables on it...more than likely just bone stock line stuff). Perhaps part of the 5800 swap being so nice is because of the cables. I landed up using the ones that come with the shifters. The LBS that I had cable it used all of the proper fitting supplied with the kit.


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## nhluhr

Typetwelve said:


> My road bike is a '12 Tarmac...and as stated before, it was a 5700 equipped factory bike. I'll be 100% honest and admit that swapping the cables was something that crossed my mind on occasion..but I never did (Specialized used Jagwire cables on it...more than likely just bone stock line stuff). Perhaps part of the 5800 swap being so nice is because of the cables. I landed up using the ones that come with the shifters. The LBS that I had cable it used all of the proper fitting supplied with the kit.


Yeah the cables are a big part of it but the shifters and derailleurs are also HUGE since they change the leverage ratios etc.


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## skinewmexico

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the 5800 group to the 6800 group?


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## Typetwelve

skinewmexico said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the 5800 group to the 6800 group?


By what I've seen and read, save the crank...there really isn't a difference outside of finish and some weight (which funny enough, the 6800 cassette is listed as heavier than the 105 for some reason).


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## nhluhr

That would definitely be a typo or invalid comparison (like different cassette sizes). The 6800 cassette has a carbon spider on two of the cogs that on the 5800 cassette are just full thickness steel rings and spacers. That cuts a significant amount of weight from it. It's possible the 11-32 Ultegra weighs more than a smaller 5800 cassette but similarly sized cassettes between the two you'll see a couple ounces difference in addition to the finer finish quality on the ultegra which boosts cog durability.


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## Typetwelve

nhluhr said:


> nevermind... misread


I was going off of this:
Shimano Ultegra 6800 11 Speed Cassette
and this:
Shimano 105 5800 11 Speed Cassette

For some reason, the say (comparing an 11-28 set), that 6800 is 248g and the 5800 is 227g.

I weighed my components when I did the swap (5700 and 5800) and found Art's #'s to be pretty spot on.

Comparing the two (5800, 6800) they look like this:

Shifters 488/420
F. Derail (braze) 89/87
R. Derail 229/195
Cassette (11-28) 227/248
Brakes 380/343
Chain 265/260

So...sans cables and crank...you looking at 1678 -vs- 1553. 125g difference or 1/4 lb. So...even if these #'s are half of actual. It's a savings of .5lb if you don't factor in a crank.

When I went to get the parts I needed for the swap...it wasn't worth the extra $150 to get the Ultegra stuff (shifters, F/R derail, cassette, chain).

I'd rather put that extra $$ into a 6800 crank to replace my FSA...LOL...


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