# Help with overcautious descending



## dutchgenius (May 29, 2012)

Background - I am a daily bike commuter and I participate in group rides a few times a week and longer organized rides throughout the year (and am considering getting into racing next year). I just changed bikes to a Specialized Tarmac Pro SL4 SRAM, and the bike is amazing for someone my size - 6'1" 190 lbs. I have plenty of power for sprints, endurance is getting there for sustained speed bursts (pacelining at 25+ mph), and my climbing is improving as I am learning I like to get up out of the saddle and mix things up.

The problem is my descending turns, plain and simple. I just don't trust myself coming down hills and end up going much slower than necessary. I haven't had any brake issues yet, but I am on them a fair amount coming down. Coming down a straight hill is fine, because I can see the bottom and know where I am going to end up, as long as I keep the bike straight... but add turns and I white knuckle it. There are a lot of potential symptoms of my fear:

-Read stories often of locals getting killed on group rides (on descents)
-I ride primarily on the hoods and feel uncomfortable descending in the drops
-I grew up using primarily the rear brake (over the handlebars BS fear) and although I use the front primarily now... I still get skiddish flying down hills with my big 190 lb. corpse
-My wheels are really good and I find that they seem to increase speed much faster than my fellow riders coming downhill (white industries hubs, sapim cx-ray spokes, HED Belgium rims) and I get concerned I will not be able to slow down (in the 40+ mph range)
-When I cannot see the curve in the descent ahead, I get concerned I will not be able to make the corner... without hitting a rail or going into oncoming traffic

Just looking for some tips I guess to build some confidence for descents, especially ones I have not done before (if this is possible). I have read its best to descend in the drops for control and braking power but, (coming from a MTB growing up) it is a little scary to get going like that.

If it matters, I ride on Continental Grand Prix 4000 S 700 x 23, 105 PSI in front, 110 in the rear.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

There are a whole bunch of things here, and I will let the more experienced guys give the detailed responses, but here's one to start:


> -I ride primarily on the hoods and feel uncomfortable descending in the drops


You gotta fix that. To descend -- and especially brake -- confidently, you have to have the control and low center of mass that you can only get in the drops. Braking control is much better, too.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

The first tips that popped into my head:

The front does give you about 75% of your braking so it helps to get your weight to the rear to lessen the fear of an endo. I get low in the drops and push my butt back (and sometimes even off) the saddle. If the road isn't smooth I often raise my butt a few inches off the saddle to let the bike move around under me.

Brake hard on the straights when you can. Try not to drag the brakes as that is how heat builds up.

Learn to relax, don't lock your arms.

Obviously, look as far ahead as possible. Look where you want to go, not at what you need to avoid.

Edit: Another thought is that I switched to 25mm tires on wide rims at around 90psi and the bike feels more planted and more confidence-inspiring when cornering at speed.


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## genux (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm still learning to regain my confidence on downhills after a recent crash. The one tip I'm taking to heart is: "keep on practicing."

A friend of mine took me to an area which he calls a "confidence builder." It's a 2-mile loop with a hill and about 5 turns — the grade is steep enough to get you to pick up some speed (28-32mph) and the turns are fairly wide. I try and do this as much as I can, experimenting with different approaches to the same turn and dealing with blind hair-pin turns (always difficult at speed).

Regarding rear braking: I learned quickly not to put too much force there because of the fish-tail effect.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

dutchgenius said:


> The problem is my descending turns, plain and simple. I just don't trust myself coming down hills and end up going much slower than necessary. I haven't had any brake issues yet, but I am on them a fair amount coming down. Coming down a straight hill is fine, because I can see the bottom and know where I am going to end up, as long as I keep the bike straight... but add turns and I white knuckle it. There are a lot of potential symptoms of my fear:
> 
> -Read stories often of locals getting killed on group rides (on descents)
> -I ride primarily on the hoods and feel uncomfortable descending in the drops
> ...


Coming from a motorcycle rider, there are a few things that are common to motos and road bikes with respect to cornering. The first has already been mentioned.

1. Look through the corner. The body follows the head/eyes.
2. Set your corner entry speed before you enter the corner. This has also been mentioned above: brake while the bike is upright, and release once the bike is leaned over entering the corner. Stay off the brakes midcorner.
3. Shift your weight. Us moto guys take it to the extreme with the knee dragging and what not, but the physics of cornering a 2-wheel vehicle is the same. Weight offset the centerline of the bike allows for using less lean angle to achieve a given turn radius. The manner in which you shift your weight may depend on personal preference/ability, but even getting your head and shoulders off the CL and "into" the corner will help.
4. Practice! Find an empty parking lot where you can get a feel for just how much grip your tires can generate and learn to trust in your equipment (which generally plays a minor role, except for tires). Get used to getting the bike leaned over, and comfortable riding in the drops. Spend some time on a familiar road slowly increasing corner speed.


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## dutchgenius (May 29, 2012)

thanks for the tips everybody. It seems like I have a few things to work on - primarily I think I have this notion of being "higher" to see ahead, which is actually more of a detriment. I think I get really fixated on the oncoming cars and external barriers, rather and just getting low and focusing on where I want to go.

Another issue I know I don't do enough of is simply trusting the side grip of my tires. Coming from a MTB background, I have taken many a spill on pavement and I think that has something to do with it. I paid $70 per tire for this Chili compound... might as well start using it.


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## authalic (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm fairly new to road biking, but I have been riding trails for a while, so take any of my advice for what it's worth. I'm also a big guy (260 on a good day) and learning to shift my balance around has made a huge difference in my descents. I try to keep my center of mass directly over my bottom bracket. On descents, this means shifting my weight back to the rear of the saddle, which reduces the weight on the bars, and allows me to lean into turns more easily.

It also helps to work on your turning technique. Try to enter a turn wide, from the outside, then carve inward toward the apex of the turn midway through, then swing back out wide on the exit. I'm sure a more experienced rider can explain it better, just try to make the turn as "big" as you can, without swinging into opposing traffic.

Try to ride with people who have more experience in descents. I'm a slow climber, but due to my mass, I can usually match anybody's speed on the downhill sides. Watching how experienced riders pick their lines down the canyons around here has helped a lot.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Having good descending form and knowledge is always a good thing. However chasing speed is a different story. It may not be a bad thing at all that you're cautious on the descents. It may save your life. 

My 2 cents.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

I also come from a motorcycle background and I have to say every thing so far is good advice. The one I would add is if you can use more of the road. Enter the corner on the far right and sweep left to yellow line and then back out to the right after the apex. As you get faster you can take the lain and cars will usually give you space. The other is find someone faster then you and fallow them. My friends wife has been doing that with me and I have gotten her to double her descending speeds.


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## ABR (May 18, 2012)

Good advice here about techniques to improve handling on descents... but, in all seriousness, why do you need to go any faster? To do it more safely, certainly, but I take pause when I read that you've been reading stories "often" of people getting killed on your local descents. If that's true, I don't think you can be cautious enough. Even plenty of pros hate descending, but unlike you and me, their livelihoods depend on it doing it.


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## dutchgenius (May 29, 2012)

ABR said:


> Good advice here about techniques to improve handling on descents... but, in all seriousness, why do you need to go any faster? To do it more safely, certainly, but I take pause when I read that you've been reading stories "often" of people getting killed on your local descents. If that's true, I don't think you can be cautious enough. Even plenty of pros hate descending, but unlike you and me, their livelihoods depend on it doing it.


Understand that many of the deaths I read about happen at times other than just descending and are sometimes even the fault of the rider (like crossing into oncoming traffic to pass a group). But the thought alone of cycling death with small kids and a wife at home gives me the creeps, and changes the way I ride.

But with descending, I can actively feel myself riding the brakes, overthinking it, slowing down a group that I can easily keep up with on flats and climbs, and utterly panicking. My hope is that looking at it from a mechanical perspective can help me calm my jets and maybe even enjoy it.

Hitting 40 mph on flat descents is fun, safe (on the proper roads), and not in the realm of extreme, but when descending on winding turns and slowing down to sub-25 mph - its feels overly-controlled and dangerous to those around me.


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## ABR (May 18, 2012)

I see what you mean... riding too cautious or riding scared can be dangerous in its own right, especially when it leads to unexpected braking or overcorrecting. 

I'd say just brake evenly and predictably while holding your line, stay within your comfort zone speedwise, and eventually experience and confidence will probably let you increase speed. It should happen naturally without your forcing it I think. The guys around you who want to bomb the downhills will figure it out pretty quickly and give you space. If it's a group ride with people you know, I guess you could just let them know the deal before you ride. If it's a race, it's their responsibility to not cannonball into you from the rear!


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Stumbled upon this thread...just a noob adding my two cents:

Brake modulation - and grip strength - in the drops is multiple times better. The few times I'm on the hoods in a descent, it scares the sh*t out of me becuse I know I don't have the "oomph" to really stop if I need to. Also, if I'm on the brakes on the hoods my body weight shifts uncomfortably forward. 

Like previously mentioned here, to bleed off descent speed quick I like to hang my ass behind the saddle and mash both brakes in the drops. 50mph to slow, without any uncomfortable weight shift. I'm six feet 225lbs. If the descent is imperfect, I hover just over the seat and let my legs absorb any bumps which would cause me to briefly lose control (is the ones that sneak up on you). 

Again, descending on the hoods scares the crap out of me. Hopefully, this change of position will solve more than one of your issues (weight shift, control, etc.).


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## bootsie_cat (Jan 7, 2005)

Practice descending behind a rider who descends well.
study their lines, when they brake and their posture.
Do this over and over again. 
You will notice that it is about setup, comfort, timing and the correct speed. 
You do not have to corner super fast in order to descend fast- just be comfortable and
make good decisions.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

9W9W said:


> Stumbled upon this thread...just a noob adding my two cents:
> 
> Brake modulation - and grip strength - in the *hoods* is multiple times better.


From the rest of your discussion it's clear you meant to say "in the *drops*", so you might want to edit that. 

Everything you say comports with what I've experienced in 40-some years of riding, so if you're a noob you learn fast.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

All advice given thusfar are great. 

I'd just like to comment abot the hanging your ass over the seat too much, don't over do it. You need to stay neutral, because if you ass is behind the seat, you can't turn the front as fast.

But here is the $1 million dollar question for yall. How do you determine when the limit of traction has been reached? without crashing out??? Motorcycle racers find this out early in their careers in the form of crashes. But at least they were still young and young bodies recover quickly from broken bones. But as an older adult with family obligation, you can't afford to be a crash dummy. So how do you find this limit without crashing? I ride 23mm tires, like most of you, and personally for me, the way I sense this limit is when I feel like my arms are doing pushups on the bar (in the drop position, of course). And if a corner is banked, I really feel like I'm doing pushup as my body is pushed into the bike due to the centrifugal force. So for me, I sense this via my arms, which are usually bent (if you stiff-arm, then you lose a lot of ability to sense the centrifugal force input). Also, as the absolute limit is reach, you can actually hear the front tire screech and moan as it pushes hard against the pavement, and at this point, I'd say I'm just a hairline from going over the limit of traction (and crashing out). So far, I've used this as my guide/judge of limit of tract successfully, and have not crashed out in years yet. I'm 120 lbs and usually I can keep up with even the biggest of riders under 180 lbs on descent by using this method to sense limit of traction around sweepers (while the bigger guys will tend to slow down a lot and rely on straight road to make up for speed).

But in theory, a bicycle can pretty much go almost just as fast as a motorcycle around a typical corner. But most cyclists are no where near as fast as a motorcyle around a corner. So IMO, cyclists are still holding back a bit more than their available traction allows them, which is NOT a bad thing. Better to have some change in your pocket for safety margin then to spend it all and crash.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Cavilla, thanks for the civil heads up. Much better than being on the receiving end of a flaming. 

ACL, my ass is out back only in straight lines, i.e. if I need to bleed quickly before entering a turn or coming to an end. I try to set everything up before entering a turn. If you're mid turn and you need to brake... it's probably too late for you anyway. Besides as you've noted, forces acting on you make this nearly impossible.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

Authalic : *On descents, this means shifting my weight back to the rear of the saddle, which reduces the weight on the bars, and allows me to lean into turns more easily.*

Here is a piece of advice that is absolutely wrong. This is a great way to have the front wheel slide out from under you.


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## rm -rf (Feb 27, 2006)

You need to practice hard braking with the front brake, in safe situations: no other riders, good sight lines, etc. Then you'll know how fast you can go and still be able to stop within the viewable road ahead. Then on a fairly steep road, how much longer does it take to slow down? You need practice.

One of the local experienced riders had a good comment: It's very easy to go way faster than the posted speed limit around blind corners. It's all okay as long as there's nothing in the road just out of sight around the bend. The posted turn speed is a good rule of thumb for safe blind corners.

I've had a couple of scary fishtailing stops when I had to panic brake and used both brakes. The rear is very easy to lock up then, and that causes the back wheel to skid sideways. I got out of it by letting up both brakes for an instant, but it's better to train your hands to just use the front in emergency braking.

Of course, in a group ride, you don't want to be flying down the road and then suddenly braking before the turn, surprising the rider right behind. But with confidence in your braking, you can follow the other riders more comfortably.

~~~~~

When solo, I try to hit a late apex on the turn. This way, I'll avoid drifting over the center line at the end of the turn if I hit it too hot. (Or an oncoming car that's hanging over the center line!) There's more room to avoid any bad spots on the road, too.

This is a motorcyle diagram, but applies to bikes:


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

+1 on the 25mm tires and wider rims. That change made a huge difference in how sure the bike felt at high speed.

+11 on the get comfortable in the drops. You have to fix this. New fit? Bars? Frame? Something is wrong if you can't get comfy in the drops. On a decent, the drops should be MORE comfortable than the hoods.

Get out on a mountain bike and huck yourself down some single track.


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