# Campagnolo Electronic



## T-Dog

How long to Campagnolo Electronic???? It's killing me I wish they would hurry up and release it. They have been working and testing it for over 5 years. Has anyone got any inside words or updates????????? :thumbsup:


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## chuckice

e-Campy at the yesterday's Giro presentation?


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## chuckice

Some more...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campagnolo-shows-off-its-new-electronic-gear-system


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## BlueMasi1

*Seems neat but...*

Given the quality, accuracy and weight of today's systems traditional cable systems. I have to wonder if electronic shifting is a answer in search of a question.


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## orange_julius

chuckice said:


> Some more...
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campagnolo-shows-off-its-new-electronic-gear-system


Seems that it is still at a prototype stage.

_"Movistar will use a similar bike in 2011 and will be the only team to use the electronic gear system before it goes on general sale."_

I wonder what the price point would be.

Regardless, I think it will hasten the unveiling of Shimano's Ultegra-level electronic shifting.


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## chuckice

orange_julius said:


> Seems that it is still at a prototype stage.
> 
> _"Movistar will use a similar bike in 2011 and will be the only team to use the electronic gear system before it goes on general sale."_
> 
> I wonder what the price point would be.
> 
> Regardless, I think it will hasten the unveiling of Shimano's Ultegra-level electronic shifting.


Who knows...rumor mill has them working on it for a good while now...if so then it's likely well past prototype stage.


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## ultimobici

Pics via weightweenies


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## natedg200202

Just because the status-quo works fine doesn't mean there isn't a market for something new. My old cell phone (one with a number pad on the front and nothing else) worked just fine, but I'm thrilled with my new iPhone. 

Cable systems will continue to work just fine. Electronic groups will sell well to people who want something new.


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## BlueMasi1

Your comparison to cell phone technology is inaccurate. An iPhone (as does any smart phone) provides a major increase in capability and functionality over the older voice only cell phones. Electronic shifting still only shifts gears – that same as a cable system. So in this case you are not seeing an increase in functionality.

I do agree with your point that those who want it will buy it -- without considering if it will improve anything.


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## natedg200202

OK, your right. My point is that electronic shifting is not necessary, but adds a fun factor. 

If someone gave you an electronic group, would you try it out? Do you think your experience would be positive or negative?


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## ejr13

The 2 people I know who have have ridden the Shimano system for a while, both are racers and use it on their daily rides as well, said they would never go back. Faster, more accurate, quieter is what they said. Doesn't interest me much though.


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## BlueMasi1

Of course I would. Even if it made it down to Athena level would I buy it? Most likely not.


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## chase196126

BlueMasi1 said:


> Your comparison to cell phone technology is inaccurate. An iPhone (as does any smart phone) provides a major increase in capability and functionality over the older voice only cell phones. Electronic shifting still only shifts gears – that same as a cable system. So in this case you are not seeing an increase in functionality.
> 
> I do agree with your point that those who want it will buy it -- without considering if it will improve anything.



You have obviously never ridden Di2. From a racing perspective the increased functionality and reliability of that group is a serious upgrade over mechanical systems. The shift quality of the FD alone is a HUGE improvement in capability over a cable actuated system.

Dont get me wrong, the cable systems available right now are extremely nice, and function superbly. However, electronic shifting (at least Di2) is a major upgrade for those who need that little extra edge in a race situation. 

Is it worth the money to a Rec. rider? That is up to each individual person to decide. It goes along the same line as whether it is worth the money to get Super Record over Chorus.


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## BlueMasi1

You are correct, I have never ridden Di2 (or any Shimano equipped road bike) and will agree that based on what I have read that shifting performance (not functionality) is faster and more precise. However, is an electronic system measurably more reliable than a traditional cable system? 

I am no luddite. I have upgraded my components through the years and have found most (with the exception of Campy Synchro) to improve the cycling experience. However, with exception on an extremely small percentage of elite racing cyclists, I still argue that given the quality of today's cable system that the performance edge garnered by an electronic is negligible for the majority of cyclists (recreational and non-elite racers).


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## kbwh

chase196126 said:


> ...
> 
> Is it worth the money to a Rec. rider? That is up to each individual person to decide. It goes along the same line as whether it is worth the money to get Super Record over Chorus.


What are the functional benefits with SR compared to Chorus?


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## tommyturbo

I'm a diehard Campagnolo rider, but I did try the Di2 on a trainer at a bike show.

I realize that's not exactly a thorough test, but honestly, I don't understand what the fuss is all about. The bike I rode was defintely not quieter than Campy 11s (which is quite a bit quieter than Campy 10s), and I did not like the way the RD shifted compared with 11s. It wasn't any faster or more precise, and gone was the "feel" that is so great with any Campy group.

The FD shifted very well, and this used to be a weak spot for Campy, but it's not any more. I guess if I wanted to shift up to the big ring after starting a sprint Di2 would be nice, but that feature is not important at all to me. 

Granted, it was a trainer ride, but it didn't make the least bit curious to go try Di2 again. I have two bikes with SR 11s, and I expect to be using this stuff for a long time. 

I won't be pushing an electric "button" any time soon.


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## RussellS

BlueMasi1 said:


> You are correct, I have never ridden Di2 (or any Shimano equipped road bike) and will agree that based on what I have read that shifting performance (not functionality) is faster and more precise.
> 
> However, with exception on an extremely small percentage of elite racing cyclists, I still argue that given the quality of today's cable system that the performance edge garnered by an electronic is negligible for the majority of cyclists (recreational and non-elite racers).


Shifting in the rear for Di2 is not faster than cable shifters. There is a reason all of the sprinters sponsored by Shimano use cable 7900 and not electronic 7970. With cable shifters the rear derailleur is moving and shifting while you are pushing the lever or the thumb button. So the shift occurs while your fingers move. With Di2 you push the button, hear the click, then the shift occurs. Kind of a lag effect. Its a tiny tiny tiny lag. But rear shifting is faster with cables than Di2. Or it seems faster. Di2 rear shifting is more precise. Push the button and the rear derailleur shifts perfectly every single time. Perfection.

For front shifting there is no comparison between Di2 and cables. Di2 is magical front shifting. Unfortunately I don't shift my front derailleur much so don't enjoy this too much.

Performance edge for Di2? Who cares. I ride it because its fun to ride. The people who do not own a Di2 bike cannot grasp how much fun it is to ride Di2. Push the button and it shifts. Front or rear. Just push the button. Its fun to ride.


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## cyclust

I love my bikes because they are pure, simple machines. Yes, today's modern superbikes are made of exotic materials and have all sorts of high tech features, but they are still 100% mechaincal devices that are purelyy human powered. Electronic shifting, if nothing else, pollutes my experience that is me, my bike and the open road. And also, assuming I have the correct tools with me, there is NOTHING that I can't fix on my bike on the side of the road. A solenoid, circuit board or servo motor aint gonna get fixed on the side of the road.


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## skygodmatt

Everyone is so funny. 

Just ride it and then make a decision. It's a new thing. Good or bad? Who knows?...but that's how this sport has evolved.

I bet they said the same thing when Campagnolo invented the derailleur. 

Ride safe gentlemen.


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## BunnV

cyclust said:


> I love my bikes because they are pure, simple machines. Yes, today's modern superbikes are made of exotic materials and have all sorts of high tech features, but they are still 100% mechaincal devices that are purelyy human powered. Electronic shifting, if nothing else, pollutes my experience that is me, my bike and the open road. And also, assuming I have the correct tools with me, there is NOTHING that I can't fix on my bike on the side of the road. A solenoid, circuit board or servo motor aint gonna get fixed on the side of the road.


Best post yet that I've read on this subject.
My sentiments exactly. :thumbsup: 

It's kind of like the argument of quartz watches vs. mechanical watches. Sure quartz watches are silent and keep perfect time, but for the watch purist, nothing compares to a finely made mechanical movement. Keeping time is important, but HOW the watch keeps time is even more important. Mechanical watch movements are fascinating miniature machines. Battery powered watches are a lot less fascinating. 

The funny thing about watches is, generally speaking, anything with a battery in it is less expensive than a nice "automatic" (mechanical). With Di2, it's just the opposite. :shocked:


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## BunnV

skygodmatt said:


> I bet they said the same thing when Campagnolo invented the derailleur.


I think Tullio made the derailleur better. Simplex had already made one before him.


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## chase196126

cyclust said:


> I love my bikes because they are pure, simple machines. Yes, today's modern superbikes are made of exotic materials and have all sorts of high tech features, but they are still 100% mechaincal devices that are purelyy human powered. Electronic shifting, if nothing else, pollutes my experience that is me, my bike and the open road. And also, assuming I have the correct tools with me, there is NOTHING that I can't fix on my bike on the side of the road. A solenoid, circuit board or servo motor aint gonna get fixed on the side of the road.


In all honestly I completely agree. I much prefer the feel of a mechanical group, especially the new campy stuff. 

From a racing perspective, however, you do give up a decent sized advantage to a rider with an electronic group. That is a major issue when the difference between winning and losing can be less than an inch.


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## ultimobici

chase196126 said:


> From a racing perspective, however, you do give up a decent sized advantage to a rider with an electronic group. That is a major issue when the difference between winning and losing can be less than an inch.


Better tell Cavendish to ditch the cables and go to Di2 so he can beat Farrar. 

Electronic shifting makes no difference whatsoever to the results of major races. If it did, every Shimano sponsored rider would be on Di2. Freire won MSR because he was the stronger rider not because he was on Di2. By the same token the two Euskatel riders who finished 6th & 7th in Lombardia were beaten by Gilbert not Campag Super Record.

Most pros don't give a flying f*** what they are riding as long as it works. As the saying goes "To finish first, first you must finish"


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## tommyturbo

Exactly how does electronic shifting give a rider an advantage when racing? At what level of racing does this apply? Certainly not at the level I race at, as I am not on TV. I'm trying to figure our if I have ever been in a situation where electronic shifting would have made me faster. Nope, can't come up with it. Of course, if anybody were to beat me using electronics, well, there you have it, I must have lost because of my crappy old SR shifters. Or maybe it was because my bike weighed 20g more than the person who beat me.

The post about pro riders is relevant. Most of those riders do not care what kind of bike or components they use, or about the clothes they are wearing, and most of them are not involved in any of the equipment decisions anyway.

Whether it is Campy or Shimano, if electronic shifting is for you, that is great. No justification is required, so why make a reason up?


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## chase196126

ultimobici, for a sprinter Di2 may not make much of a difference. Many prefer the feeling of a cable actuated system for the rear. 

The main advantage of the Di2 is its ability to shift the FD in any situation you can imagine. That is a major advantage if you want to shift rings on your crank during a steep climb like in a classic, or even Battenkill here in the US. In situations like that Di2 offers a large performance advantage. 



tommyturbo said:


> The post about pro riders is relevant. Most of those riders do not care what kind of bike or components they use, or about the clothes they are wearing, and most of them are not involved in any of the equipment decisions anyway.
> 
> Whether it is Campy or Shimano, if electronic shifting is for you, that is great. No justification is required, so why make a reason up?


That is total BS. The majority of pro riders do care about what they are riding. For example, as an understanding of bicycle aerodynamics becomes more common in the peloton you hear more and more riders from teams that ride "aero looking" TT bikes complaining about the time they are losing to riders on properly designed bikes like Cervelo, Scott, and Trek. 

Racing around the world this year I cant tell you the number of riders I heard talking about how they would love to ride Di2, regardless of who their sponsor was. 

Most pro riders will not express these feelings to the general public, unless they are talking to a close friend or anther pro rider (a non consumer)


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## merckxman

One advantage of electronic is the ability to put the buttons in all kinds of interesting places...as they have for major races...


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## ultimobici

chase196126 said:


> ultimobici, for a sprinter Di2 may not make much of a difference. Many prefer the feeling of a cable actuated system for the rear.
> 
> The main advantage of the Di2 is its ability to shift the FD in any situation you can imagine. That is a major advantage if you want to shift rings on your crank during a steep climb like in a classic, or even Battenkill here in the US. In situations like that Di2 offers a large performance advantage.


If everything else is equal, then Di2 might decide the winner of a race. But it is not a major advantage otherwise we'd see Campagnolo & Sram riders being beaten all the time. Giro, Tour & Vuelta were all won on conventional cable actuated groups. All but one of the Monuments were won on conventional equipment too, as was the World Championship.


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## chase196126

ultimobici said:


> If everything else is equal, then Di2 might decide the winner of a race. But it is not a major advantage otherwise we'd see Campagnolo & Sram riders being beaten all the time. Giro, Tour & Vuelta were all won on conventional cable actuated groups. All but one of the Monuments were won on conventional equipment too, as was the World Championship.


Looking at the results of races to see what type of equipment the riders used is a horrible way of determining whether or not one piece of equipment is better than another. This incorrect line of thinking comes up commonly in the Engine vs Equipment arguments. Yes, the bigger engine will win even with equipment that is not as fast, but they would have gone faster with better equipment. 
If something goes horribly wrong, like A. Schleck's issue this summer, you can point to equipment. Not so if things turn out well. The tiny differences made by these types of equipment are much too easy to get lost in the noise of other more significant factors, but they are certainly still there. 

Who says those riders on cable systems would not have been a little fresher, or better placed at the end of the race had they been on Di2? Would the guys riding Di2 have been farther back if they had not been riding it? 

What level of racing have you achieved to say that Electronic shifting makes no difference? I dont mean to be rude, but recreational riders have no need for anything higher than 105 or Athena, let alone Di2. Its fine to ride stuff nicer than that, but its out of want not "need"


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## kbwh

I like want. Want is good. Want makes the economy.


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## ultimobici

chase196126 said:


> Looking at the results of races to see what type of equipment the riders used is a horrible way of determining whether or not one piece of equipment is better than another. This incorrect line of thinking comes up commonly in the Engine vs Equipment arguments. Yes, the bigger engine will win even with equipment that is not as fast, but they would have gone faster with better equipment.
> If something goes horribly wrong, like A. Schleck's issue this summer, you can point to equipment. Not so if things turn out well. The tiny differences made by these types of equipment are much too easy to get lost in the noise of other more significant factors, but they are certainly still there.
> 
> Who says those riders on cable systems would not have been a little fresher, or better placed at the end of the race had they been on Di2? Would the guys riding Di2 have been farther back if they had not been riding it?
> 
> What level of racing have you achieved to say that Electronic shifting makes no difference? I dont mean to be rude, but recreational riders have no need for anything higher than 105 or Athena, let alone Di2. Its fine to ride stuff nicer than that, but its out of want not "need"


So you agree that it is not a "major advantage"? That's all I was getting at.


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## chase196126

ultimobici said:


> So you agree that it is not a "major advantage"? That's all I was getting at.


No, I do think it is a major advantage. "Major" is a relative term in pro cycling. 

Have I lost races because of issues with front shifting? Yes. Do I wish I had Di2 in that situation? Hell yes. 

Is that really so hard to understand?


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## ultimobici

chase196126 said:


> No, I do think it is a major advantage. "Major" is a relative term in pro cycling.
> 
> Have I lost races because of issues with front shifting? Yes. Do I wish I had Di2 in that situation? Hell yes.
> 
> Is that really so hard to understand?


When STI came out it was a major advantage over DT levers due to the ability to shift without taking one's hands off the bars, something that had not been possible before. To the pros equipment makes very little difference in the end as long as it doesn't break, so to attribute race losses to front shifting is a red-herring. AS's problem would not have been avoided by using Di2 as it had nothing to do with the front shifter. His chain was caught by the outer chainring according to Sram. At the very top level of the sport reliability is paramount, that's why Mavic's two attempts at electric gear shifting died a death. 

That said Di2 is an incredible innovation, with its automatic trimming & ability to force front shifts. I'm sure over time it will become the norm in the peloton, but that won't be due to riders feeling that they have to have it rather teams deciding to standardise their equipment for the whole team.


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## chase196126

ultimobici said:


> When STI came out it was a major advantage over DT levers due to the ability to shift without taking one's hands off the bars, something that had not been possible before. To the pros equipment makes very little difference in the end as long as it doesn't break, so to attribute race losses to front shifting is a red-herring. AS's problem would not have been avoided by using Di2 as it had nothing to do with the front shifter. His chain was caught by the outer chainring according to Sram. At the very top level of the sport reliability is paramount, that's why Mavic's two attempts at electric gear shifting died a death.
> 
> That said Di2 is an incredible innovation, with its automatic trimming & ability to force front shifts. I'm sure over time it will become the norm in the peloton, but that won't be due to riders feeling that they have to have it rather teams deciding to standardise their equipment for the whole team.



Ill just ask you this, have you ever ridden Di2 at a high level of competition?

You are also incorrect about pros not caring what they ride. Yes,m there are some pros that think that way, but a good many others who want to be on the very best that is available. Many of the pros who say they dont care are saying that in order to not defame their current equipment sponsor. We dont get the choice of equipment if we are not sponsored by the company that makes the other stuff. That doesnt mean we dont wish we had it. 

As an experiment, find a pro rider and ask them what their least favorite bit of equipment they have had to ride in their career. Then ask them what they said to consumers who asked while they were being payed to ride that specific piece of equipment. 

Campy releasing an Electronic group was certainly influenced by pro riders on Campy wanting an electric system, as well as keeping in step with Shimano in the market place.

One interesting bit of electric shifting history: Chris Boardman used Mavics Mektronic group on his TT bike because he believed it gave him a measurable advantage. This was when he was not sponsored by Mavic


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## ultimobici

chase196126 said:


> Ill just ask you this, have you ever ridden Di2 at a high level of competition?


Nope.



> You are also incorrect about pros not caring what they ride. Yes,m there are some pros that think that way, but a good many others who want to be on the very best that is available. Many of the pros who say they dont care are saying that in order to not defame their current equipment sponsor. We dont get the choice of equipment if we are not sponsored by the company that makes the other stuff. That doesnt mean we dont wish we had it.


I was referring to those riders already on Shimano. 



> As an experiment, find a pro rider and ask them what their least favorite bit of equipment they have had to ride in their career. Then ask them what they said to consumers who asked while they were being payed to ride that specific piece of equipment.


Just spoke to a mate who rode in Belgium and Holland as a pro. His take was that it might make a slight difference but at the end of the day not much.



> Campy releasing an Electronic group was certainly influenced by pro riders on Campy wanting an electric system, as well as keeping in step with Shimano in the market place.


Once Di2 came out Campag & Sram were effectively obligated to bring their own system out. Pro rider influence would not have been the driving force, rather consumer pressure.



> One interesting bit of electric shifting history: Chris Boardman used Mavics Mektronic group on his TT bike because he believed it gave him a measurable advantage. This was when he was not sponsored by Mavic


Boardman had used Mavic's Zap from the beginning and I think was also involved with its development. So for him to continue using Mektronic in 2000 when CA were on DA is not out of the ordinary at all. Same thing happened with Museeuw & Bettini and Shimano SPD-SL pedals despite them riding for a Time/Campag sponsored team.


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## tommyturbo

"Once Di2 came out Campag & Sram were effectively obligated to bring their own system out. Pro rider influence would not have been the driving force, rather consumer pressure."

Well put. Campagnolo is a small company, and they will never be able to compete with Shimano or Sram in terms of marketing, but Campy still needs to have a compete product line. For the Campy people who do want electronic shifting, Campy has to offer it or potentially lose a customer to a competitor. 

When it comes down to it, what difference does it make what pro riders use?


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## orange_julius

chase196126 said:


> No, I do think it is a major advantage. "Major" is a relative term in pro cycling.
> 
> Have I lost races because of issues with front shifting? Yes. Do I wish I had Di2 in that situation? Hell yes.
> 
> Is that really so hard to understand?


Shouldn't you be wishing that you had tuned your FD properly? Electronic shifting doesn't make it foolproof, just ask Michael Rogers.

http://road.cc/content/news/5623-to...rek-speed-concept-di2-glitches-and-race-radio

_Shimano's swanky Di2 electronic groupset has been much in evidence in this year's Tour, especially on the TT stages, but Michael Rogers got himself into trouble on the opening Time trial dropping his chain off the inner ring twice: each time he had to stop and manhandle it back on, and he lost around 20 seconds doing so. It transpires that Rogers had opted to swap his 39-tooth inner ring for a 46-tooth one just before the off, but no-one on the team had realised that the system is configured to work with the 39T ring and the massive inner ring threw out all its clever sums, causing the chain to ship.

“[53/46] is not a combination that is in the system, precalculated. It was just as much of a surprise for us, because it was working well before the start", explained mechanic Perry Moerman. "But just before the start [Rogers] decided to go with the bigger chainring. We we didn’t realize it was preset, everything,” said Moerman. “Now we know.", he added, to the sound of stable doors slamming across the principality._


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## chase196126

orange_julius said:


> Shouldn't you be wishing that you had tuned your FD properly? Electronic shifting doesn't make it foolproof, just ask Michael Rogers.
> 
> http://road.cc/content/news/5623-to...rek-speed-concept-di2-glitches-and-race-radio
> 
> _Shimano's swanky Di2 electronic groupset has been much in evidence in this year's Tour, especially on the TT stages, but Michael Rogers got himself into trouble on the opening Time trial dropping his chain off the inner ring twice: each time he had to stop and manhandle it back on, and he lost around 20 seconds doing so. It transpires that Rogers had opted to swap his 39-tooth inner ring for a 46-tooth one just before the off, but no-one on the team had realised that the system is configured to work with the 39T ring and the massive inner ring threw out all its clever sums, causing the chain to ship.
> 
> “[53/46] is not a combination that is in the system, precalculated. It was just as much of a surprise for us, because it was working well before the start", explained mechanic Perry Moerman. "But just before the start [Rogers] decided to go with the bigger chainring. We we didn’t realize it was preset, everything,” said Moerman. “Now we know.", he added, to the sound of stable doors slamming across the principality._



My issue was not that my FD was mis adjusted or matched with the wrong component like Rogers, it was that the FD I had could not handle being shifted under load when I desperately needed it to. The current generation of electronic shifting would not have had that problem.


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## BlueMasi1

*So help me understand*



RussellS said:


> Performance edge for Di2? Who cares. I ride it because its fun to ride. The people who do not own a Di2 bike cannot grasp how much fun it is to ride Di2. Push the button and it shifts. Front or rear. Just push the button. Its fun to ride.


That by going to Di2 riding is now fun and those of us still using cable systems can't truly enjoy our rides? Pushing a button to make a shift increases the fun factor over swinging a shift paddle?


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## RussellS

BlueMasi1 said:


> That by going to Di2 riding is now fun and those of us still using cable systems can't truly enjoy our rides? Pushing a button to make a shift increases the fun factor over swinging a shift paddle?


Di2 is more fun to ride than cable systems. Yes pressing the button and having it shift is more fun than swinging the lever. Its also easier to shift too. Front especially. No need to swing the fingers 3-4 inches to move the chain from the small to big ring.

Do you own a Di2 bike? Have you ridden it hundreds or thousands of miles?


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## orange_julius

chase196126 said:


> My issue was not that my FD was mis adjusted or matched with the wrong component like Rogers, it was that the FD I had could not handle being shifted under load when I desperately needed it to. The current generation of electronic shifting would not have had that problem.


What FD did you have? The current generation of electronic shifting is still mechanical, it's just the control that has been changed. The control basically went from cable to wireless, so the only difference is just the adjustment. Hence, my previous post. 

What makes you think that the problem is specific to non-electronic systems?


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## chase196126

orange_julius said:


> What FD did you have? The current generation of electronic shifting is still mechanical, it's just the control that has been changed. The control basically went from cable to wireless, so the only difference is just the adjustment. Hence, my previous post.
> 
> What makes you think that the problem is specific to non-electronic systems?


The main advantage of the Di2 FD is its ability to shift during high torque, low cadence situtations. The difference is absolutely NOT just going from cables to wires. 

I wont name the FD I had issues with, but the issue I had is a pretty common complaint with the group I was riding.


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## ultimobici

chase196126 said:


> The main advantage of the Di2 FD is its ability to shift during high torque, low cadence situtations. The difference is absolutely NOT just going from cables to wires.
> 
> I wont name the FD I had issues with, but the issue I had is a pretty common complaint with the group I was riding.


So you would have won had it not been for the prehistoric Sram derailleur on your Trek Madone? Pull the other one, it's got bells on!


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## BlueMasi1

RussellS said:


> Di2 is more fun to ride than cable systems. Yes pressing the button and having it shift is more fun than swinging the lever. Its also easier to shift too. Front especially. No need to swing the fingers 3-4 inches to move the chain from the small to big ring.
> 
> Do you own a Di2 bike? Have you ridden it hundreds or thousands of miles?


As my one post noted (the one you quoted), I have not ridden (or do I own a Di2 or Shimano equipped bicycle) so I can't really say that a Di2 Bike is more fun to ride. Personally, I doubt that it would be more fun simply because I have just as much fun my 7 speed (friction) commuter rig as I do on my racing bicycles. I have to admit it sounds a little effete to be bothered by swinging a paddle 3-4 inches.

Of course if one's dexterity has been limited by injury or illness, then I do see the merits of electronic shifting.


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## chase196126

ultimobici said:


> So you would have won had it not been for the prehistoric Sram derailleur on your Trek Madone? Pull the other one, it's got bells on!


It wasnt on my Madone, this was prior to the 2010 season. 

And yes, had I been on a different front derailleur I would have won this particular race. I had to shift to my big ring to attack at the end of a climb and the flex of the FD failed me in this situtaion. From my PERSONAL experience with Di2 I would not have had this issue. 

I am not saying that Cable actuated systems are bad at all. In fact I just got my 2011 team bike with Record 11 and I am beyond thrilled with it. Im really looking forward to seeing how Campagnolo's electric group works. If it works as well or better than Di2 it will provide a real world advantage to me and other high level riders during races.


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## Pirx

chase196126 said:


> In fact I just got my 2011 team bike with Record 11 and I am beyond thrilled with it.


I was going to say, you probably wouldn't have had this problem with that Campy FD, either. At least I am not having problems shifting in just about any situation.


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## orange_julius

chase196126 said:


> It wasnt on my Madone, this was prior to the 2010 season.
> 
> And yes, had I been on a different front derailleur I would have won this particular race. I had to shift to my big ring to attack at the end of a climb and the flex of the FD failed me in this situtaion. From my PERSONAL experience with Di2 I would not have had this issue.
> 
> I am not saying that Cable actuated systems are bad at all. In fact I just got my 2011 team bike with Record 11 and I am beyond thrilled with it. Im really looking forward to seeing how Campagnolo's electric group works. If it works as well or better than Di2 it will provide a real world advantage to me and other high level riders during races.


Are you saying that your FD problem was specific to your un-named FD? Hence, you could also have moved to a better purely mechanical system and not have the same problem, correct? 

Sorry to keep asking, but being a technology dork I am very curious if there is a special feature of either Shimano or Campa's electronic groupsets beyond my understanding of what it can or cannot do. Thanks.


----------



## J24

Electronic is not new to Campy. About 5 or 6 years ago they equiped a few pro bikes with an electric group for at least one season maybe two and then dropped it.

Anyone know Campy's reasons for discontinuing at the time?


----------



## Pirx

J24 said:


> Electronic is not new to Campy.


Absolutely correct. In contrast to what some in this thread seem to think, Campy has been working on an electronic set for about the same time as Shimano.



J24 said:


> Anyone know Campy's reasons for discontinuing at the time?


They never dropped the project, but they felt that the market for this product was not big enough. Maybe one ore two years ago they did make a statement to that effect, essentially saying that they would wait with the introduction of their electronic group until the market improves. As a smaller company, Campy probably cannot afford the expense of introducing a new product line like that based on the very limited amount of sales. Heck, I have never seen a Di2 group in the flesh so far, on any of our group rides, nor at any event I went to.


----------



## J24

Pirx said:


> They never dropped the project, but they felt that the market for this product was not big enough...........................Heck, I have never seen a Di2 group in the flesh so far, on any of our group rides, nor at any event I went to.


I could be wrong but I think I remember reading back then in one of Euro bike mags that at one of the spring classics with a lot of rain/sleet the derailleur motors had problems actuating shifts because of the mud.

If the weather's bad in Belgium next spring, it would be worth knowing how many pros using DI2 change to regular STI.


----------



## merckxman

Campagnolo's announcement:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/campagnolos-announcement-re-electronic.html


----------



## tommyturbo

I remember reading that Campagnolo's explanation for dropping electronic was to focus on the 11 speed project. It was mentioned that as a small company, they did not have the resources to work on both 11s and electronic. This was the "official" reason listed.


----------



## Richieg

tommyturbo said:


> I'm a diehard Campagnolo rider, but I did try the Di2 on a trainer at a bike show.
> 
> I realize that's not exactly a thorough test, but honestly, I don't understand what the fuss is all about. The bike I rode was defintely not quieter than Campy 11s (which is quite a bit quieter than Campy 10s), and I did not like the way the RD shifted compared with 11s. It wasn't any faster or more precise, and gone was the "feel" that is so great with any Campy group.
> 
> The FD shifted very well, and this used to be a weak spot for Campy, but it's not any more. I guess if I wanted to shift up to the big ring after starting a sprint Di2 would be nice, but that feature is not important at all to me.
> 
> Granted, it was a trainer ride, but it didn't make the least bit curious to go try Di2 again. I have two bikes with SR 11s, and I expect to be using this stuff for a long time.
> 
> I won't be pushing an electric "button" any time soon.


I've did a test ride with Di2 and thought it was cool.Then did a ride on a Cyfac with Campy 10. The rear shifting in just as quick but the front is not as good but not horrible. The one avantage is no cable adjustments on the Di2. The Di2 is cool but it's not really any better than Campy 10-11 or Dura Ace. Just my two cents.


----------



## T-Dog

Di2 is just Dura-ace with a battery pack!!!! 

You can bet your bottom dollar Campganolo will be a HEAP better.:thumbsup:


----------



## Drew Eckhardt

T-Dog said:


> Di2 is just Dura-ace with a battery pack!!!!
> 
> You can bet your bottom dollar Campganolo will be a HEAP better.:thumbsup:


Campagnolo has a long history of shifting mistakes:

Synchro
Escape
Powershift

with the last brand new for 2011.


----------



## kbwh

Powershift is for the OEM market. Customers can understand it: 3 up, one down, just like on the other bikes in the customer's price range.


----------



## tommyturbo

As disinterested as I am in electronic shifting, it still seems to make sense to wait at least until it's available to call it a mistake. Might make even more sense to wait until you try it.


----------



## Richieg

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Campagnolo has a long history of shifting mistakes:
> 
> Synchro
> Escape
> Powershift
> 
> with the last brand new for 2011.[/QUOTE Didn't realize they had problems with 2011? A lot of these guys installing, adjusting 11 speed groups don't know jack, that's why they never shift right. I've been on a lot of 11 speed bikes and never had issues with any of them.


----------



## Drew Eckhardt

Richieg said:


> Drew Eckhardt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Campagnolo has a long history of shifting mistakes:
> 
> Synchro
> Escape
> Powershift
> 
> with the last brand new for 2011
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't realize they had problems with 2011?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yup. Since 1992 Campagnolo brifters have been able to shift 3 cogs bigger and at least 5 cogs smaller.
> 
> Except 2007-2009 escape on low end shifters
> 
> And 2011 Powershift.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of these guys installing, adjusting 11 speed groups don't know jack, that's why they never shift right. I've been on a lot of 11 speed bikes and never had issues with any of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A lot of 11 speed bikes are Chorus/Record/Super Record and/or from 2009-2010 so they don't suffer from "Powershift" like 2011 Athena and below.
> 
> There's also the spare parts availability issue. While a $100 replacement mechanism beats Shimano's whole shifter policy, it's an order of magnitude worse than replacing several $3-$5 springs when something fails like we've done for most of the preceding two decades.
> 
> My point is that while Campagnolo makes a lot of nice stuff that lasts for decades, they're not immune to bonehead moves which irritate the Campagnolo cognoscenti.
Click to expand...


----------



## RussellS

Richieg said:


> Drew Eckhardt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Campagnolo has a long history of shifting mistakes:
> 
> Synchro
> Escape
> Powershift
> 
> with the last brand new for 2011.[/QUOTE Didn't realize they had problems with 2011? A lot of these guys installing, adjusting 11 speed groups don't know jack, that's why they never shift right. I've been on a lot of 11 speed bikes and never had issues with any of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Its apparent you don't know much about Campagnolo. Power Shift is the new shifting mechanism in Athena 11 speed, Centaur and Veloce 10 speed Ergo levers. It allows only 1 cog at a time when shifting to a smaller cog in the rear. Using the thumb button. Still allows 3 cogs when going to bigger cogs. Using the lever.
Click to expand...


----------



## Cruisinscoot

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Richieg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. Since 1992 Campagnolo brifters have been able to shift 3 cogs bigger and at least 5 cogs smaller.
> 
> Except 2007-2009 escape on low end shifters
> 
> And 2011 Powershift.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of 11 speed bikes are Chorus/Record/Super Record and/or from 2009-2010 * so they don't suffer from "Powershift" like 2011 Athena and below.*
> 
> There's also the spare parts availability issue. While a $100 replacement mechanism beats Shimano's whole shifter policy, it's an order of magnitude worse than replacing several $3-$5 springs when something fails like we've done for most of the preceding two decades.
> 
> My point is that while Campagnolo makes a lot of nice stuff that lasts for decades, they're not immune to bonehead moves which irritate the Campagnolo cognoscenti.
> 
> 
> 
> I have the Athena group on a Bianchi Infinito and I think the group is getting a bum rap here. (No offense)
> 
> Yes, it is very sensitive to and requires precise adjustment. Yes, I found myself constantly fiddling with the adjusters until I understood the mechanics of the shifters. What I needed to learn and why is that the rear shifter does not like to be man handled moving up the cassette… any overshot could cause the derailleur to hang a little and be reluctant to roll the chain back in line with the cog. This annoyance is something I have come to attribute to stiction in the cable either caused by the tight bends and/or the routing through the frame and not the shifter itself.
> 
> I just had to learn to just press the rear shifter lever until the chain engages the next larger cog. A gentile hand works flawlessly every time. It took me a couple hundred miles or so to realize what was going on. Since that moment of revelation… shifting has been fantastic. Additionally, there has been no need for any adjustments for the past 1400 miles since then either.
> 
> ON THE SUBJECT OF ELECTRONIC SHIFTERS… I like manual shift transmissions for my cars and motorcycles. So of course I have no use for one on my Bianchi. Like someone else said, I like mechanical things.
Click to expand...


----------



## chase196126

Cruisinscoot said:


> Drew Eckhardt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just had to learn to just press the rear shifter lever until the chain engages the next larger cog. A gentile hand works flawlessly every time. It took me a couple hundred miles or so to realize what was going on. Since that moment of revelation… shifting has been fantastic. Additionally, there has been no need for any adjustments for the past 1400 miles since then either.
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno man... A group that takes a "couple hundred miles" to find out how to make it shift acceptably seems like it deserves a bum rep.
> 
> In my experience I have not come across a group that has that problem from any other manufacturer.
Click to expand...


----------



## kbwh

As the saying goes: ShimaNO wears out, Campagnolo wears in.


----------



## spade2you

kbwh said:


> As the saying goes: ShimaNO wears out, Campagnolo wears in.


Ha, so true.

As for Campy electric, I'm too impressed with my Record 11 to even consider. The Record 10 on my TT bike is also very nice. I might consider it on my TT bike if my TTs were technical, but currently mine are long with minimal turning. 

I'd spring for SR before I went electric.


----------



## campagnoloneutron

T-Dog said:


> How long to Campagnolo Electronic???? It's killing me I wish they would hurry up and release it. They have been working and testing it for over 5 years. Has anyone got any inside words or updates????????? :thumbsup:


...more back on topic of the initial thread post; Here is a link to a video of the presentation of the special Pinarello Dogma Campag Tech Lab electric grouppo bike at the recent (early November 2010) Japan Cycle Mode 2010 show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM8bwyy66Nw&feature=youtube_gdata


----------



## campagnoloneutron

*...couple of additional photos*

...Here are a couple of additional photos from the Tokyo show of the new Campy Tech Lab 11 speed electric group to be used by the Spanish Movistar pro team in 2011.


----------



## natedg200202

The RD looks OK, but my word - that FD looks a-huge! It can't really be as large as it looks in the picture above, can it?


----------



## orange_julius

natedg200202 said:


> The RD looks OK, but my word - that FD looks a-huge! It can't really be as large as it looks in the picture above, can it?


Yeah, that's what makes me worry, too. I ride with my heels quite far in. So I'm concerned that my right heel may end up knocking onto the top assembly of the FD. 

Makes me glad that this system is supposed to be an engineering prototype instead of the final product. Well, to be fair I intend to let the zealous customers troubleshoot it for the first year or two before I think about getting into the bandwagon :-D.


----------



## bdaghisallo1

J24 said:


> I could be wrong but I think I remember reading back then in one of Euro bike mags that at one of the spring classics with a lot of rain/sleet the derailleur motors had problems actuating shifts because of the mud.
> 
> If the weather's bad in Belgium next spring, it would be worth knowing how many pros using DI2 change to regular STI.


Have you had a look at some of the conditions that Sven Nys and Niels Albert have been racing DI2 in? If it can stand up to the mudfests that some of cross races this season have been, then there is nothing to worry about.

I would imagine Campy Electric will be just as robust.


----------



## Tommasini

*Team Bikes being built up with Electric*

From what I understand these electric groupos are intended for that final stage of team testing/proveout - but not to suggest that they are ready to hit the market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q65l6slrvIc&feature=player_embedded


TA
My Rigs
https://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s314/tommasini_roadie/Cycling/Tommi8ideas-1.jpg
https://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s314/tommasini_roadie/Cycling/Tommi9008acrop.jpg


----------



## ultimobici

J24 said:


> I could be wrong but I think I remember reading back then in one of Euro bike mags that at one of the spring classics with a lot of rain/sleet the derailleur motors had problems actuating shifts because of the mud.
> 
> If the weather's bad in Belgium next spring, it would be worth knowing how many pros using DI2 change to regular STI.


We've already seen what happens when it's wet, cold & muddy with DI2.
K-B-K - 3rd
Hel Niewsblaad - 1st
Belgian Cross Champ 2010 

We heard nothing about problems during the mudfest into Montalcino or the sodden trek to L'Aquila either.

I think Niels Albert uses DI2 exclusively and also there's this guy too on fairwheelbikes







[/URL]

So all in all DI2 has passes with flying colours.


----------



## J24

Ah well there you go............... obviously I'm a fool for struggling along with my manually actuated Chorus shifters, so I'll just run out today and lay some ducats at the DI2 God's altar.


----------



## ultimobici

J24 said:


> Ah well there you go............... obviously I'm a fool for struggling along with my manually actuated Chorus shifters, so I'll just run out today and lay some ducats at the DI2 God's altar.


Nah, hang on to your Chorus shifters they have something DI2 will never have, style and function!

I've just converted to Campagnolo wholesale as a result of their new lever shape. Tried DI2 out at a trade show a while ago and more recently at work. It's nice in a novelty way but I don't have the urge to plan a way to get it on a bike at all. There's no tactile feel to it.

Now the Campag version is a different matter. i can see a time when I will have to have it and thanks to the fact that my job lets me buy pretty much anything at wholesale prices it is attainable. If I was paying retail it'd be a whole different ballgame.


----------



## skygodmatt

ultimobici said:


> Nah, hang on to your Chorus shifters they have something DI2 will never have, style and function!
> 
> I've just converted to Campagnolo wholesale as a result of their new lever shape. Tried DI2 out at a trade show a while ago and more recently at work. It's nice in a novelty way but I don't have the urge to plan a way to get it on a bike at all. There's no tactile feel to it.
> 
> Now the Campag version is a different matter. i can see a time when I will have to have it and thanks to the fact that my job lets me buy pretty much anything at wholesale prices it is attainable. If I was paying retail it'd be a whole different ballgame.



I used it too on a 20 mile ride. There is no tactile feel. I felt "disconnected" from the bike which is an important part of cycling.


----------



## ultimobici

skygodmatt said:


> I used it too on a 20 mile ride. There is no tactile feel. I felt "disconnected" from the bike which is an important part of cycling.


That's it! It's like a video driving game feel or lack thereof.


----------



## skygodmatt

Are there any Pro Teams in the Tour riding DI2?


----------



## ultimobici

skygodmatt said:


> Are there any Pro Teams in the Tour riding DI2?


Sky use it exclusively on the road. TT bikes seem to be a mix.
Rabobank use it. Friere won MSR on it.
Garmin were on it in 2010.
HTC were on it too in 2010.

It'll be interesting to see how Campag's system works once the season starts. If the last time they had it in use is anything to go by, it'll be the equal of DI2.

Key to it's success outside of the pros is it's cost relative to DI2 as well as battery life. If the battery is as long-lasting as Shimano's and it's within spitting distance on price, it'll fly.

Looking at the pics that have been released so far, it seems that the hoods are the same as mechanical Campag. That's one thing I don't get with DI2. Why have a different hood shape?


----------



## skygodmatt

That's pretty cool. 
Maybe cable systems have seen their day.


----------



## Mr. Scary

ultimobici said:


> Sky use it exclusively on the road. TT bikes seem to be a mix.
> Rabobank use it. Friere won MSR on it.
> Garmin were on it in 2010.
> HTC were on it too in 2010.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see how Campag's system works once the season starts. If the last time they had it in use is anything to go by, it'll be the equal of DI2.
> 
> Key to it's success outside of the pros is it's cost relative to DI2 as well as battery life. If the battery is as long-lasting as Shimano's and it's within spitting distance on price, it'll fly.
> 
> Looking at the pics that have been released so far, it seems that the hoods are the same as mechanical Campag. That's one thing I don't get with DI2. Why have a different hood shape?


Because they need less room for the electronics. The Japanese typically engineer with function in mind. So the approach is that with less space required (no bulky mechanical mechanism), they made the hoods smaller. I prefer the Di2 shape to the standard 7900. I prefer Campy over them all though.


----------



## rx-79g

Mr. Scary said:


> Because they need less room for the electronics. The Japanese typically engineer with function in mind. So the approach is that with less space required (no bulky mechanical mechanism), they made the hoods smaller. I prefer the Di2 shape to the standard 7900. I prefer Campy over them all though.


He said "hood shape" not "shifter size". As Shimano is lauded for the ergonomic shape of their hoods, it is fair to wonder why they would depart from that shape, and require a different replacement hood.

In this case, it is more likely to be about differentiation between the two systems, rather than some racial need for "function". Who doesn't design with function in mind? Are Sram and Campy parts not designed for function?

DI2 is radically expensive. It is worthwhile for Shimano to make the differences between DI2 and regular DA as apparent in look and feel as possible. This is both to satisfy buyers that they are getting something for their money (the same reason a Japanese Lexus ES300 looks very different from the Camry it is based on), and so the equipment is readily identifiable by other consumers.


If this was purely about form and size, I think they would have made the shifters more like the Mavic system - much, much smaller.


----------



## Mr. Scary

rx-79g said:


> He said "hood shape" not "shifter size". As Shimano is lauded for the ergonomic shape of their hoods, it is fair to wonder why they would depart from that shape, and require a different replacement hood.
> 
> In this case, it is more likely to be about differentiation between the two systems, rather than some racial need for "function". Who doesn't design with function in mind? Are Sram and Campy parts not designed for function?
> 
> DI2 is radically expensive. It is worthwhile for Shimano to make the differences between DI2 and regular DA as apparent in look and feel as possible. This is both to satisfy buyers that they are getting something for their money (the same reason a Japanese Lexus ES300 looks very different from the Camry it is based on), and so the equipment is readily identifiable by other consumers.
> 
> 
> If this was purely about form and size, I think they would have made the shifters more like the Mavic system - much, much smaller.


So the shifter mechanism is not incorporated in the "brifter"? Are you really that stupid, doesn't Wal-Mart keep you busy sweeping the floors or are you hawking all of my posts? I am sure you will rush home to adorn your Ti Christmas tree with all sorts of lovely trinkets. 

Campy has also suggested the Shimano preference for "function" as opposed to Camapagnolo's design preference for "form" and the Italian flair.

But please keep posting I like making fun of you, like shooting fish in a barrel and I'm bored today.


----------



## rx-79g

Mr. Scary said:


> So the shifter mechanism is not incorporated in the "brifter"? Are you really that stupid, doesn't Wal-Mart keep you busy sweeping the floors or are you hawking all of my posts? I am sure you will rush home to adorn your Ti Christmas tree with all sorts of lovely trinkets.
> 
> Campy has also suggested the Shimano preference for "function" as opposed to Camapagnolo's design preference for "form" and the Italian flair.
> 
> But please keep posting I like making fun of you, like shooting fish in a barrel and I'm bored today.


Well stupid, eletronic "shifters" are microswitches, the size of two aspirin. You can mount them anywhere, even in multiple places, so you don't have to "design" a brifter around them. They aren't structural - they just need a tiny (like your brain) wire lead. So the function argument is meaningless.

The shape of Shimano's hoods is not much dictated by mechanism in either version. All road brake lever bodies are bigger than they need to be - their other function is to provide a comfortable place for your hands, which the real reason for their shape.

Campy calling Shimano "functional looking" is just marketing (which I know you're big into believing whenever you read). Way before you were born Shimano was making groups like Sante specifically for form. Those pretty sculpted DA chainrings are not a great functional leap forward.


----------



## Mr. Scary

rx-79g said:


> Well stupid, eletronic "shifters" are microswitches, the size of two aspirin. You can mount them anywhere, even in multiple places, so you don't have to "design" a brifter around them. They aren't structural - they just need a tiny (like your brain) wire lead. So the function argument is meaningless.
> 
> The shape of Shimano's hoods is not much dictated by mechanism in either version. All road brake lever bodies are bigger than they need to be - their other function is to provide a comfortable place for your hands, which the real reason for their
> 
> Campy calling Shimano "functional looking" is just marketing (which I know you're big into believing whenever you read). Way before you were born Shimano was making groups like Sante specifically for form. Those pretty sculpted DA chainrings are not a great functional leap forward.


And your knowledge of electronics comes from multiple rebuildings of your arse vibrator...


----------



## rx-79g

Mr. Scary said:


> And your knowledge of electronics comes from multiple rebuildings of your arse vibrator...


Nope. Are those nice?

I was basing that off dealing with Mavic stuff. Also before you were born.


----------



## Mr. Scary

rx-79g said:


> Nope. Are those nice?
> 
> I was basing that off dealing with Mavic stuff. Also before you were born.


Funny that a baby boomer keeps getting humiliated by a kid, what does that say about you and your loathsome generation?


----------



## rx-79g

Mr. Scary said:


> Funny that a baby boomer keeps getting humiliated by a kid, what does that say about you and your loathsome generation?


Baby boomer? As in born between 1945 and 1964? Well, I guess we've established that you are in fact a foolish little boy. It is a great pleasure reading the constant string of half formed ideas and misassumptions that characterize your involvement with this board.

Your contributions seem to be entirely insults, fanboy reprints of ad copy, misinformation and (not often enough) retractions. Awesome. You are a valuable member of this community and would be missed if you disappeared, or were banned.


----------



## Mr. Scary

rx-79g said:


> Baby boomer? As in born between 1945 and 1964? Well, I guess we've established that you are in fact a foolish little boy. It is a great pleasure reading the constant string of half formed ideas and misassumptions that characterize your involvement with this board.
> 
> Your contributions seem to be entirely insults, fanboy reprints of ad copy, misinformation and (not often enough) retractions. Awesome. You are a valuable member of this community and would be missed if you disappeared, or were banned.


You can google to define baby boomer, how trite. I think it's funny when old timers such as yourself can't handle reality so their first instinct is to call for banishment, much like McCarthyism (feel free to google that as well). Get over yourself, nobody cares what you think!rrr:


----------



## rx-79g

Mr. Scary said:


> You can google to define baby boomer, how trite. I think it's funny when old timers such as yourself can't handle reality so their first instinct is to call for banishment, much like McCarthyism (feel free to google that as well). Get over yourself, nobody cares what you think!rrr:


Funny, you seem to care quite a bit. Getting so emotional about my frame preferences and so on.

I think I now care what you post, too.


----------



## RussellS

rx-79g said:


> DI2 is radically expensive.
> 
> If this was purely about form and size, I think they would have made the shifters more like the Mavic system - much, much smaller.


I paid $2200 for my Di2 group. Complete group. Shifters, crank, derailleurs, brakes, BB, chain, cassette. This is quite a bit more expensive than Chorus 11 group which the same store was selling for $800 recently. But I don't consider $2200 all that expensive. It is not cheap. More than cable Super Record. But if you figure $2200 for group, $2200 for frame/fork, and $1100 for wheels, you end up with a $5500 bike. Somewhat reasonable for the best of the best bikes.

Have you ever ridden Di2? The shifters are very very comfortable. Shimano definitely got the ergonomics right with Di2 hood shape.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

deleted


----------



## tommyturbo

Where is the XMAS spirit? I mean, what is with all of these mean-spirited posts?

Back to the original debate; the Shimano mechanical shifting mechanism is indeed larger than the Campagnolo system. Shimano internals are bigger, therefore the larger hood.

Shimano brought out STI first. Campy was second, but improved the design.


----------



## rx-79g

RussellS said:


> I paid $2200 for my Di2 group. Complete group. Shifters, crank, derailleurs, brakes, BB, chain, cassette. This is quite a bit more expensive than Chorus 11 group which the same store was selling for $800 recently. But I don't consider $2200 all that expensive. It is not cheap. More than cable Super Record. But if you figure $2200 for group, $2200 for frame/fork, and $1100 for wheels, you end up with a $5500 bike. Somewhat reasonable for the best of the best bikes.
> 
> Have you ever ridden Di2? The shifters are very very comfortable. Shimano definitely got the ergonomics right with Di2 hood shape.


"Radically expensive" is a reference to the difference between the two DA groups, not an assessment of overall value. I tried a friend's very briefly, and the hoods reminded me of 1980s Shimano hoods. Nice. It does seem funny putting a $2200 group on a $2200 frame. I don't think I'd ever pony up for anything more expensive than Chorus/Force/Ultegra. 

With all the UCI regulations about equipment, I wish one was that everything on the bike had to be human powered. Electric shifting just seems like motorized figure skating or gourmet hotdogs - misplaced.


----------



## Tommasini

*Update*

Recent interview about e-Campy

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...rged-up-over-campy-electronic-shifting_158759


----------



## RussellS

rx-79g said:


> "Radically expensive" is a reference to the difference between the two DA groups, not an assessment of overall value. I tried a friend's very briefly, and the hoods reminded me of 1980s Shimano hoods. Nice. It does seem funny putting a $2200 group on a $2200 frame. I don't think I'd ever pony up for anything more expensive than Chorus/Force/Ultegra.


No way would I ever use mechanical Dura Ace. It was a choice between Di2, Chorus, or Super. For me the upcharge for Di2 over mechanical DA was about $900. For that extra $900 you got different shifters, front derailleur, rear derailleur, and the battery. Worth it? To me yes.

$2200 group, $2200 frame/fork, $1100 wheels works out to 40% group, 40% frame/fork, 20% wheels. Seem pretty reasonable break up of the money going into a bike. Some might argue for a 33% split for each. But that would likely end up with too cheap a group relative to the frame and wheels. If you went with less percentage for the frame/fork, 25%, then you would end up with lipstick on a pig syndrome. High dollar parts on a cheap frame? No. 50% on the frame/fork would result in cheap group and wheels on an expensive frame. That doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Sasquatch

spade2you said:


> Ha, so true.
> 
> As for Campy electric, I'm too impressed with my Record 11 to even consider. The Record 10 on my TT bike is also very nice. I might consider it on my TT bike if my TTs were technical, but currently mine are long with minimal turning.
> 
> I'd spring for SR before I went electric.


really, how many of you are still using 1999 Campy stuff?


----------



## ultimobici

Sasquatch said:


> really, how many of you are still using 1999 Campy stuff?


I have two pairs of wheels built onto Record Ti hubs that are still perfect. My cross bike just got upgraded to 2002 Record 10 that was on my De Rosa before that was upgraded to 11 speed. The only non-Record components are the levers which are Centaur Ultrashift. The brother of the friend who sold me the De Rosa with the Campag 10 is still on 1999 9 speed Record which has had a hard life in the Italian Alps & Dolomites. All he's had to change is chains & pads!

Campag has always been built to last & be serviced. You may have heard people bemoaning the reduced back-up for Campag recently. It's not that they aren't providing parts rather that they aren't providing as comprehensively as they have. It still is far and away better that Shimano ever has. Try finding part numbers for 8 speed Dura Ace compared to Campag 8 speed. In addition my 99 Record hubs work flawlessly with 11 speed with no changes made to anything. Contrast that with my old 7403 Dura Ace hubs which need to be conned into taking an 11-up cassette as well as the limit screws & indexing on the mechs having to be readjusted.


----------



## Sasquatch

Ultimobici, I think you are one of the few I have come across that service their Campy stuff. In my experience, most campy users I know switch out their stuff once the latest and greatest comes along (i.e. Record to Record 11, Record 11 to Super Record) while harping on the brand's servicability. 

My apologies for jumping to conclusions.


----------



## ultimobici

Sasquatch said:


> Ultimobici, I think you are one of the few I have come across that service their Campy stuff. In my experience, most campy users I know switch out their stuff once the latest and greatest comes along (i.e. Record to Record 11, Record 11 to Super Record) while harping on the brand's servicability.
> 
> My apologies for jumping to conclusions.


I don't really service it at all, nor do the two mates in Italy. One of them is on a bike that has creaked loudly for the last few years every time he is out of the saddle. Other than cleaning regularly and replacing chains & pads I don't baby my bikes at all.

I suspect that those who upgrade as soon as there is something new can do so due to good resale prices or relatively large disposable incomes.

Having worked in bikeshops for almost 20 years I have to say that Campag seems to outlast Shimano by several years. I rarely see 9 speed Dura Ace now but see similar vintage Record & Chorus much more.


----------



## LigonierA1

Sasquatch said:


> really, how many of you are still using 1999 Campy stuff?


*JUST* retired my 98 Record group. Replaced it with Chorus 11 since I now need to pay for my own parts. I will never have a need for electronic shifting although if it all goes that way someday....I suppose I'll be using it.


----------



## T-Dog

Has anyone heard approx release dates as yet. Will it defintly be Jan 2012 or will we see it earlier? I cant wait!!!!!!


----------



## JimmyORCA

T-Dog said:


> Has anyone heard approx release dates as yet. Will it defintly be Jan 2012 or will we see it earlier? I cant wait!!!!!!



SAME HERE!!!!


----------



## Pirx

JimmyORCA said:


> SAME HERE!!!!


What do you mean you "can't wait"? What are you gonna do? Pee your pants? What? Sheesh...


----------



## orange_julius

Pirx said:


> What do you mean you "can't wait"? What are you gonna do? Pee your pants? What? Sheesh...


Ate something bad today? Since when is gushing over a particularly desirable piece of new technology not acceptable?


----------



## T-Dog

Pirx said:


> What do you mean you "can't wait"? What are you gonna do? Pee your pants? What? Sheesh...


 You must ride Shimano or Spam as you have no idea mate. I would probably pee my pants as you say if I could get hold of the new electronic Campag now.


----------



## Pirx

orange_julius said:


> Ate something bad today? Since when is gushing over a particularly desirable piece of new technology not acceptable?


Eh, good guess... 



T-Dog said:


> You must ride Shimano or Spam as you have no idea mate. I would probably pee my pants as you say if I could get hold of the new electronic Campag now.


No, Campy only. And I bet I'm gonna order my Campy Electronic before you do...rrr:


----------



## RussellS

Sasquatch said:


> really, how many of you are still using 1999 Campy stuff?


Still use my complete 1998 Chorus group on my Waterford 1200. My favorite bike. First year for the rounded Ergo hoods instead of the pointy Ergo previously. I now have 12 spoke Shamal wheels on the Waterford. But the 1998 Chorus hub wheels are on another bike. Fixes, replacements to that 1998 Chorus have included new freehub body, new G springs in the Ergo, broken spring holder in the right Ergo (cheap potmetal post was known to break before Campagnolo came out with the improved carbon/plastic post), cassette (originally had titanium cogs on the cassette and they wore out fast), chains, cables. Not sure I've ever changed the brake pads. 9 speed Campagnolo cassettes are cheap and easy to buy from Europe. 9 speed chains are plentiful. Cassette can very from 13-23 to 14-28. Lot of range.


----------



## Zeekster64

The newest issue of Bycling Magazine has an article on the Campy electric. It looks pretty neat and it lighter than the Di2 plus one can download a whole cassette just by holding the shifter where as with the Di2 you have to keep tapping it. 

I have a feeling that SRAM is starting to feel the pressure right about now


----------



## merckxman

It's going to be available soon through dealers on the Pinarello Dogma Special Edition for the Giro, mentioned in this thread on Pinarello sub-forum:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=248186


----------



## BlueMasi1

*Agree about SRAM*

If they don't offer an E group I could see them losing some market share. As for the ability to dump a whole cassette I don't see much use for that except in a race situation where you need to change your rear wheel.


----------



## ultimobici

BlueMasi1 said:


> If they don't offer an E group I could see them losing some market share. As for the ability to dump a whole cassette I don't see much use for that except in a race situation where you need to change our a rear wheel.


As you crest the top of a long climb you want to go from perhaps 34x25 to 50x13.


----------



## tommyturbo

I shift the front and rear derailleurs simultaneously all the time with SR11, just as I did with 10s. The fact that you can dump the chain multiple cogs makes this easy. So how does electronic shifting change this in a huge way? You still have to shift the front and rear, and I don't have any difficulty going from 34x25 to 50x13 with the current system.


----------



## BlueMasi1

*Maybe*

I'd argue that I would use a couple of intermediate gears to build up speed before I went to the 11 or 12 tooth cog.


----------



## J24

Zeekster64 said:


> .............................plus one can download a whole cassette just by holding the shifter .........................


Will it be compatable with Windows 7 Pro, or just XP


----------



## kbwh

iOS4, please. Gotta have it on my applecellular.


----------



## T-Dog

When's the release date, I want it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Pirx

T-Dog said:


> When's the release date, I want it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You can't have it now. I think the best consensus estimate right now is towards the end of the year, maybe October, at the earliest, for shipping. Could be later, though...


----------



## LePatron

If you check out the Campagnolo web site it would seem that the release is immanent. There's a interview in The Peloton magazine with Valentino in which he seems to suggest that the groupo may be released earlier than planed based on feedback from the Movistar team.


----------



## T-Dog

I've been told over the weekend that its after the Tour around August.


----------



## Kristatos

anyone hearing anything on pricing for the Campy electric? I am holding off on finally switching my last bike over for this....


----------



## FrenchNago

Can't wait for it to come out and see LBS and WWW drastically drop prices on chorus and Record............good deal to be had then!!!!


----------



## natedg200202

FrenchNago said:


> Can't wait for it to come out and see LBS and WWW drastically drop prices on chorus and Record............good deal to be had then!!!!


Don't hold your breath. 

You know of a LBS that sells campy?


----------



## Pirx

natedg200202 said:


> Don't hold your breath.


Yeah, I agree. This is going to be expensive, and there's no reason to drop prices on the non-electric stuff. My guess is the electronic group will be priced quite a bit higher than Di2...


----------



## Kristatos

Pirx said:


> Yeah, I agree. This is going to be expensive, and there's no reason to drop prices on the non-electric stuff. My guess is the electronic group will be priced quite a bit higher than Di2...


While I agree that price drops on the mechanical stuff probably won't be necessary I think the only way they can surpass Di2 in the marketplace is to price it somewhat close. Charging a huge premium will limit adoption to trustafarians and protour teams - if they are serious about electric being a significant part of the product line in the future they'll need to drive adoption. Ultegra electric should help Shimano get more people on board, depending on where they price it. If Campy just wants to be present in the electric segment and see where it goes and then follow then yes, they will price it in the stratosphere.


----------



## Pirx

Kristatos said:


> While I agree that price drops on the mechanical stuff probably won't be necessary I think the only way they can surpass Di2 in the marketplace is to price it somewhat close.


Oh I agree, fully. But Campy doesn't exactly have a history of smart pricing strategies, at least in the US...


----------



## mackgoo

I'm going to slowly start to by parts as I'm on 10Sp. I would think the record 11Sp should work, correct? Anyone know if you can trim the FD?


----------



## ultimobici

mackgoo said:


> I'm going to slowly start to by parts as I'm on 10Sp. I would think the record 11Sp should work, correct? Anyone know if you can trim the FD?


DO you mean buy 10 speed parts before they become hard to sourceor buy 11 speed in anticipation of going Campag EPS?

11 speed cage is narrower than 10 speed so won't accommodate 10 speed chain as easily. 10 speed cage works fine with 11 speed though.


----------



## mackgoo

Source 11sp in anticipation.


----------



## FrenchNago

natedg200202 said:


> Don't hold your breath.
> 
> You know of a LBS that sells campy?


sure mine........gives me a 10~20% discount through our club.......


----------



## fabsroman

Anybody seen anything about Campy electronic on the Tour de France bikes?


----------



## mackgoo

Movistar is there so I would assume that's what they are running.


----------



## viendo

I expected an announcement during or after the TDF, but none came. Any new info???


----------



## Nielly

Strange. Just had a look at the website and no mention. Last time I checked it was featured on the front page and seemed to be coming soon. They do have the article about Rui Costa's win on stage 8 with electronic but nothing else. I had the opportunity to read an interview in the latest Peloton with Tuillio's son who now runs things and he said that they had received positive feedback from the racers and team but that Campy was maybe not yet completely satisifed with electronic.


----------



## FrenchNago

*electronic=battery power*

My bet is they are still working out the battery life problem, I read in a french magazine that campy's batteries have half the the duration of Shim's.......that would be reallly bad news as it would mean doubling charge frequencies, reducing battery pack life, and pretty annoyed customers. I guess thay have to iron that one out before it can hit the market, especially where campy would price it!!!!!


----------



## kbwh

Hmm... May the Campagnolo solution sink more current per shift than the Shimano one? AFAIK there are several sources for Li-ion cells with equally high energy concentration.

Another way is how you measure and claim battery life. In my job in a now defunct electric car company we were quite astonished when Mitsubishi claimed equal to our charge mileage with 3/5 the battery size. Turned out ours was real world...


----------



## FrenchNago

Apparently team Movistar had chargers all over them to counter this problem with extra batteries on hand too.................I haven't heard about it with the Shim system, but then again they may be more discreet about it.

I know about this Li/ion problem but remember what happened to Sony with their source of batteries then passed down to Dell whom sourced the same, and Apple too....

Tends to show that nothing is 100% until thoroughly tested in the field..........this might explain the wait.


----------



## orange_julius

FrenchNago said:


> Apparently team Movistar had chargers all over them to counter this problem with extra batteries on hand too.................I haven't heard about it with the Shim system, but then again they may be more discreet about it.
> 
> I know about this Li/ion problem but remember what happened to Sony with their source of batteries then passed down to Dell whom sourced the same, and Apple too....
> 
> Tends to show that nothing is 100% until thoroughly tested in the field..........this might explain the wait.


As a Campagnolo acolyte I want to think that they are delaying the release due to having a very high standard for testing and optimization. But in reality I bet it's a manufacturing and supply chain problem. Campagnolo is just small enough for this kind of issue to be hard to surmount, especially given that it's not all purely mechanical anymore.


----------



## Kristatos

orange_julius said:


> As a Campagnolo acolyte I want to think that they are delaying the release due to having a very high standard for testing and optimization. But in reality I bet it's a manufacturing and supply chain problem. Campagnolo is just small enough for this kind of issue to be hard to surmount, especially given that it's not all purely mechanical anymore.


Could be if they relied on parts from the area in Japan hit by the quake/tsunami. Lots of small special electronic parts came from that area and even big auto makes were caught out since there weren't other sources.


----------



## T-Dog

Whatever the reason I just wish they'd hurry up and get it right and release it. By the time it comes out Shimano will come out with some great feature or upgrade and they'll behind the times once again.


----------



## flatlander_48

orange_julius said:


> As a Campagnolo acolyte I want to think that they are delaying the release due to having a very high standard for testing and optimization. *But in reality I bet it's a manufacturing and supply chain problem.* Campagnolo is just small enough for this kind of issue to be hard to surmount, especially given that it's not all purely mechanical anymore.


This would not surprise me either. There is a lot of heat on battery manufacturers in recent years given electric car development and a host of personal electronic devices.

One other possibility, that no one has mentioned, may be battery size. At this point, we already know how big and how heavy the Shimano battery is. Could Campagnolo have cut back on battery size in an effort to save weight (and maybe create a distinct advantage over Shimano), but maybe have sacrificed a bit too much capacity? Remember there are 2 parts to battery life: how much energy you have available and how quickly you can draw on it.


----------



## merckxman

Did you guys see the photos with a lot of extension cords going to the Movistar bikes? The thought was they were only not removable for recharging. Does that make any sense?


----------



## flatlander_48

merckxman said:


> Did you guys see the photos with a lot of extension cords going to the Movistar bikes? The thought was they were only not removable for recharging. Does that make any sense?


No, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe they cut some corners in order to get them out for the Movistar team...


----------



## fabsroman

flatlander_48 said:


> No, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe they cut some corners in order to get them out for the Movistar team...


It would be nice if there were the option to have a backup battery available (i.e., a removable battery). That is one thing that bugs me about my Garmin 705, no removable battery. So, you have to make sure you charge it for a while before heading out the door for a ride. How bad would it suck if you wanted to jump on the bike and the battery for the shifting was dead? That would suck. It would also suck to have the battery die during a ride.

Me, I am going to wait until electronic shifting is the norm and shift cables are completely obsolete before I go the electronic route. That might also make the systems a little bit more affordable than they are right now.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

merckxman said:


> Did you guys see the photos with a lot of extension cords going to the Movistar bikes? The thought was they were only not removable for recharging. Does that make any sense?


I'm not into Campy, but I have Di2. I'm sure Campagnolo is learning from Shimano's design. After all, most car companies routinely take apart their competitor's cars for evaluation.
The extension cords were likely for charging the battery on the bike. The Shimano battery has to be removed and put in a charger for charging. If Campy can charge the battery on the bike without a charger that's a plus for Campy. 
Seriously...when was the last time you took a battery out of a cell phone and put it into a charger? Shimano blew it, chargers are obsolete.
Second, re battery size. I don't know how big the Campagnolo battery is but the Shimano battery could definitely be downsized. It needs charging once every two weeks, maximum. There's an LED to warn of low battery. Campy could learn from this too and use a smaller battery.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

fabsroman said:


> Me, I am going to wait until electronic shifting is the norm and shift cables are completely obsolete before I go the electronic route.


For wireless the system would need transmitters and receivers in each lever and derailleur. That's four batteries instead of one.

Ultegra is coming soon, ya it'll get cheaper as the R&D costs are amortised and the system gets cleaned up.


----------



## bkwitche

What happens on a group ride when someone is on your wheel and their wireless shift shifts your gears as well?


----------



## flatlander_48

I don't think anyone would build a wireless system in the near future. Considering how long it took for wireless cycling cumputers, and they are a passive device with respect to bike function, I can't see wireless shifting...


----------



## orange_julius

Cinelli 82220 said:


> For wireless the system would need transmitters and receivers in each lever and derailleur. That's four batteries instead of one.
> 
> Ultegra is coming soon, ya it'll get cheaper as the R&D costs are amortised and the system gets cleaned up.


You don't necessarily need Tx and Rx in each derailleur. You can collate the data first, and only need one pair of Tx and Rx. I'm personally not interested in Campylectric, but it will be fun to see how Shimano, and SRAM, will progress.


----------



## fabsroman

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I'm not into Campy, but I have Di2. I'm sure Campagnolo is learning from Shimano's design. After all, most car companies routinely take apart their competitor's cars for evaluation.
> The extension cords were likely for charging the battery on the bike. The Shimano battery has to be removed and put in a charger for charging. If Campy can charge the battery on the bike without a charger that's a plus for Campy.
> Seriously...when was the last time you took a battery out of a cell phone and put it into a charger? Shimano blew it, chargers are obsolete.
> Second, re battery size. I don't know how big the Campagnolo battery is but the Shimano battery could definitely be downsized. It needs charging once every two weeks, maximum. There's an LED to warn of low battery. Campy could learn from this too and use a smaller battery.


How often do you find yourself charging your cellphone battery? Some days I have to charge my Blackberry battery in the car and sometimes I have to charge it in the middle of the day depending on where I am. Good thing the cables are accessible and I can still use the device while it is charging.

I've even had my cordless phone battery die on me. Good thing I have a 4 phone system there and can easily grab the next one that is charged.

There is a huge difference between a cell phone and a bike. Kind of like plug in cars. When you run out of juice, you are screwed. A lot cheaper to have a backup battery charging on a charger than a backup bike, especially if it too has Di2 or Campy electric.

I have yet to look at one of these electric systems up close. You mean to tell me that there are wires running from the shifters to the deraileurs in lieu of cables? If that is the case, I'm really not interested in it. Same reason I wasn't very interested in the PowerTap before it became wireless. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind after taking a system for a test ride, but I seriously doubt it.


----------



## tom_h

Cinelli 82220 said:


> ...The extension cords were likely for charging the battery on the bike. The Shimano battery has to be removed and put in a charger for charging. If Campy can charge the battery on the bike without a charger that's a plus for Campy.
> Seriously...when was the last time you took a battery out of a cell phone and put it into a charger? ...


I'd rather have a separate charger. I store the bike(s) either hanging off the garage ceiling, or on a workstand. Running a long extension cord to those locations is messy and/or inconvenient.

I don't take battery out of my cell phone to charge it -- because cellphone is small -- but I do remove batteries from power tools for charging.


----------



## Mr. Scary

fabsroman said:


> How often do you find yourself charging your cellphone battery? Some days I have to charge my Blackberry battery in the car and sometimes I have to charge it in the middle of the day depending on where I am. Good thing the cables are accessible and I can still use the device while it is charging.
> 
> I've even had my cordless phone battery die on me. Good thing I have a 4 phone system there and can easily grab the next one that is charged.
> 
> There is a huge difference between a cell phone and a bike. Kind of like plug in cars. When you run out of juice, you are screwed. A lot cheaper to have a backup battery charging on a charger than a backup bike, especially if it too has Di2 or Campy electric.
> 
> I have yet to look at one of these electric systems up close. You mean to tell me that there are wires running from the shifters to the deraileurs in lieu of cables? If that is the case, I'm really not interested in it. Same reason I wasn't very interested in the PowerTap before it became wireless. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind after taking a system for a test ride, but I seriously doubt it.


The wires are routed the same way a mechanical system is (and most Di2 specific bikes are routing them through the frame).


----------



## ultimobici

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I'm not into Campy, but I have Di2. I'm sure Campagnolo is learning from Shimano's design. After all, most car companies routinely take apart their competitor's cars for evaluation.
> The extension cords were likely for charging the battery on the bike. The Shimano battery has to be removed and put in a charger for charging. If Campy can charge the battery on the bike without a charger that's a plus for Campy.
> Seriously...when was the last time you took a battery out of a cell phone and put it into a charger? Shimano blew it, chargers are obsolete.
> Second, re battery size. I don't know how big the Campagnolo battery is but the Shimano battery could definitely be downsized. It needs charging once every two weeks, maximum. There's an LED to warn of low battery. Campy could learn from this too and use a smaller battery.


You do realise that Campagnolo patented their design 15 years ago?

United States Patent: 5480356
Campy's Zap System

As for the non-removal of batteries from the Movistar bikes, with 9 bikes to charge it makes more sense to plug the charger into the bikes than remove 9 batteries and then refit them again. Bike mechanics 1-0-1 is Less wasted time= More beer time!!!


----------



## ultraman6970

Many people dont realize that this electronic stuff was used long time ago even by mavic as well. Shimano found a way to make affordable and reliable, but mavic came up with electronic shifting like 15 years ago?? maybe more? anybody remember?


----------



## ultimobici

ultraman6970 said:


> Many people dont realize that this electronic stuff was used long time ago even by mavic as well. Shimano found a way to make affordable and reliable, but mavic came up with electronic shifting like 15 years ago?? maybe more? anybody remember?


Ahhh, ZAP!

Fondly remembered by Messrs Zulle, Rominger & Boardman for its reliability!!


----------



## Cinelli 82220

tom_h said:


> I'd rather have a separate charger. I store the bike(s) either hanging off the garage ceiling, or on a workstand. Running a long extension cord to those locations is messy and/or inconvenient.


Fair enough, we keep our bikes in an unused bedroom by the front door. I could lean my bike against the wall next to a plug and charge it there. I'm sure the Campy battery is removable. 
Fabs, there is a warning LED for low battery. Mine has never come on.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

ultimobici said:


> You do realise that Campagnolo patented their design 15 years ago?


Interesting read, thanks for that. 
But Campagnolo is probably not using the 15 year old design. Using the jockey wheels to recharge the battery is clever. At one time I think Campy tried having a battery in each of the brake hoods but it was too difficult to make them small enough.


----------



## Nielly

According to cycling news on feedback from interbike, Campy electronic will be available in January 2012. My LBS owner just got back from interbike and had a chance to see the electronic stuff up close. Says he wasn't overly impressed. Thought they could have done something different than the thumb bottons which he doesn't particularly care for. I don't recall him mentioning price. He also got the impression that the company is not fairing so well.


----------



## ultimobici

Nielly said:


> According to cycling news on feedback from interbike, Campy electronic will be available in January 2012. My LBS owner just got back from interbike and had a chance to see the electronic stuff up close. Says he wasn't overly impressed. Thought they could have done something different than the thumb* bottons which he doesn't particularly care for. I don't recall him mentioning price. He also got the impression that the company is not fairing so well.*


The importer or Campagnolo in Italy?

Sounds like he's not really a Campag man if he doesn't like the thumb button too!


----------



## Nielly

ultimobici said:


> The importer or Campagnolo in Italy?
> 
> Sounds like he's not really a Campag man if he doesn't like the thumb button too!


The Company in Italy. I don't think he has any special knowledge in this regard just his gut feel. 

As far as him not being a Campy fan, I think he certainly appreciates the whole Campy thing and doesn't rag on them, but he definitely is not a fan of the thumb button and was hoping they would take advantage of the flexibility that electronic gives and move the buttons.


----------



## flatlander_48

Nielly said:


> According to cycling news on feedback from interbike, Campy electronic will be available in January 2012. My LBS owner just got back from interbike and had a chance to see the electronic stuff up close. *Says he wasn't overly impressed. Thought they could have done something different than the thumb bottons which he doesn't particularly care for.* I don't recall him mentioning price. He also got the impression that the company is not fairing so well.


Sounds like a Shimano guy...


----------



## varian72

campy needs to drop the price and get OEM on some bikes if they are going to last. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but pretty basic business school stuff. Granted I don't live in Yurp so hard for me to generalize.


----------



## flatlander_48

varian72 said:


> campy needs to drop the price and get OEM on some bikes if they are going to last. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but pretty basic business school stuff. Granted I don't live in Yurp so hard for me to generalize.


Cycling+ from the UK tested Campagnolo Centaur, Shimano 105 and SRAM Apex groups in their March 2011 issue. *In spite of the Centaur being close to a kilogram lighter, having faster shifts and price competitive to within a few Pounds Sterling, they chose SRAM.* They rated SRAM higher because it had a lower low gear in the cluster and downgraded Campagnolo because there was no direct upgrade path from Centaur.

Touch of bias, perhaps?


----------



## FrenchNago

varian72 said:


> campy needs to drop the price and get OEM on some bikes if they are going to last. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but pretty basic business school stuff. Granted I don't live in Yurp so hard for me to generalize.


Bianchi has OEM campy, Colnago has OEM CAmpy, Canyon has OEM campy, Rose has OEM Campy etc etc...........long list. You get those in the brave USofA dontcha'


----------



## FrenchNago

flatlander_48 said:


> Cycling+ from the UK tested Campagnolo Centaur, Shimano 105 and SRAM Apex groups in their March 2011 issue. *In spite of the Centaur being close to a kilogram lighter, having faster shifts and price competitive to within a few Pounds Sterling, they chose SRAM.* They rated SRAM higher because it had a lower low gear in the cluster and downgraded Campagnolo because there was no direct upgrade path from Centaur.
> 
> Touch of bias, perhaps?


Biased somof*****es.......centaur is the top of 10s the its 11s.........pick the right cassette and go compact if it's still too high........lazy basterds


----------



## ultimobici

flatlander_48 said:


> Cycling+ from the UK tested Campagnolo Centaur, Shimano 105 and SRAM Apex groups in their March 2011 issue. *In spite of the Centaur being close to a kilogram lighter, having faster shifts and price competitive to within a few Pounds Sterling, they chose SRAM.* They rated SRAM higher because it had a lower low gear in the cluster and downgraded Campagnolo because there was no direct upgrade path from Centaur.
> 
> Touch of bias, perhaps?


Ignorance, not bias.

They keep telling riders in the UK that they need 34x32, as if there are that many hills that require that gearing in the UK. Maybe if you live in the Peak District or North Wales, but I regularly have customers who believe that they "need" this gearing and I'm based in London. If you need a 34x32 you're either unfit, crippled* or can't use gears on a bike properly.

I can understand a rider based in the Alps, Dolomites or Pyrenees needing an epically low gear, but if I as an overweight & not particularly bike fit rider can get up climbs of 10km @ 10% on 34x26 surely a 32 is not necessary?

Mind you, if it keeps gullible Cycling+ readers on Sram & Shimano, so be it!

* FTR, I have 2 plates, 10 pins & no cartilage in my right ankle.


----------



## ultimobici

FrenchNago said:


> Bianchi has OEM campy, Colnago has OEM CAmpy, Canyon has OEM campy, Rose has OEM Campy etc etc...........long list. You get those in the brave USofA dontcha'


I think there is a belief that if Campag don't make a Sora/Tiagra/105 competitor they're failing somehow.

That's like berating BMW for not competing with Ford's entry level range. Dumb.

Campagnolo is doing fine from what I can see. It's only the US branch that is being hurt, and I'm not sure how much Campagnolo have to lose if it closes. If buyers get their Campag from the UK Campag still get paid.


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## ultraman6970

Many magazines are paid to say something, or even the writer could be "wet" with components here and there. Centaur is way more decent than 105, have no idea about sram but sram groups arent famous for reliability. 

Lets see what campy comes next year because at this point the company looks like with no vision, as been in the last 20 years tho. At least now the components dont look similar, and actually have serial numbers and model numbers in the back... what they need to do is just make the stuff affordable and be able to switch back from 10 to 11 with the click of a switch and that will bring everybody on board, notihng sucks more than even have to buy new cassettes or wheels, more than enough with a new drive train. Or even be honest and say.. "ok u can make this work with all this old stuff too," that will bring everybody on board for sure.


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## kbwh

There is this entry level 11 speed group called Athena. Upgrade that.


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## flatlander_48

ultraman6970 said:


> Many magazines are paid to say something, or even the writer could be "wet" with components here and there. Centaur is way more decent than 105, have no idea about sram but sram groups arent famous for reliability.
> 
> Lets see what campy comes next year because at this point the company looks like with no vision, as been in the last 20 years tho. At least now the components dont look similar, and actually have serial numbers and model numbers in the back... *what they need to do is just make the stuff affordable* and be able to switch back from 10 to 11 with the click of a switch and that will bring everybody on board, notihng sucks more than even have to buy new cassettes or wheels, more than enough with a new drive train. Or even be honest and say.. "ok u can make this work with all this old stuff too," that will bring everybody on board for sure.


It is. The magazine article had UK prices and Campagnolo was VERY price competitive with 105 and Apex. I'd have to look at the magazine again, but I think Centaur was between the two.

Edit:

Magazine says:
*105 *= 609.93GBP
*Apex *= 588.94GBP
*Centaur *= 600.93GBP


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## FrenchNago

*Entry level??*



kbwh said:


> There is this entry level 11 speed group called Athena. Upgrade that.


athena might be entry level (for Campag11 but then again its the upper tier of the range) but its a beautiful group.......and its price quality ratio is unbeatable, you are sacrificing a few 100 grams to record but it works the same and might be even more reliable if you are not racing..........(who gives when you are carrying two bottles and cages, tubes, pump or co2 and all sorts of other stuff in your pockets)


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## spas

What does any of the last several post have to do with the new Campy Electronic Groupo


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## LePatron

Based on the long delay from the initial "imminent" release date of last July to the current Jan. '12 I suspect that they are implementing a few substantial revisions to the design. Perhaps looking to reduce friction surfaces to prolong battery life and/or reduce the size of the battery pack, 4 wire to 2 wire, etc. The biggest concern will be reliability since as Valentino stated; if the early versions end up having systematic failures it would be the end of it all.


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## orange_julius

LePatron said:


> Based on the long delay from the initial "imminent" release date of last July to the current Jan. '12 I suspect that they are implementing a few substantial revisions to the design. Perhaps looking to reduce friction surfaces to prolong battery life and/or reduce the size of the battery pack, 4 wire to 2 wire, etc. The biggest concern will be reliability since as Valentino stated; if the early versions end up having systematic failures it would be the end of it all.


Campagnolo needs to make sure that the first commercial release doesn't suck. Otherwise it will be game over not just for the electric groupset, but more so for the company. 

It's very expensive of their size to develop and commercialize this electric groupset, they need return on investment. If the first commercial iteration sucks and people shun them, that means the revenue will not come until much later if at all. I don't think Campagnolo can survive this well. 

For what it's worth, even though many of us Campagnolo acolytes would rather see them stay with 10-speed, moving up to 11-speed is a relatively very low risk proposition compared to producing an electric groupset.


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## orange_julius

flatlander_48 said:


> It is. The magazine article had UK prices and Campagnolo was VERY price competitive with 105 and Apex. I'd have to look at the magazine again, but I think Centaur was between the two.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Magazine says:
> *105 *= 609.93GBP
> *Apex *= 588.94GBP
> *Centaur *= 600.93GBP


This is the sad reality: Campagnolo makes great value entry-level groupsets, they just can't get on the OEM market. I don't even know if these entry-level groupsets actually bring in future buyers of higher-end groupsets. I think they contribute more in terms of not losing previous and current users of 10-sp Campagnolo. 

All this makes me think again about that open letter published in Embrocation about Campagnolo, and their lame response (at least, I thought so).


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## bottecchia_eja

One quick Campy question. Why are Campy prices in the UK significantly lower that Campy prices in the US? I assume that the componentsare the same, so why are the prices so much lower? 

Thanks!


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## ultimobici

bottecchia_eja said:


> One quick Campy question. Why are Campy prices in the UK significantly lower that Campy prices in the US? I assume that the componentsare the same, so why are the prices so much lower?
> 
> Thanks!


Import duty?


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## orange_julius

ultimobici said:


> Import duty?


I think it's the decision of Campagnolo USA to impose a huge price increase. Import duty alone doesn't explain the huge discrepancy (40% or more). 

Or maybe Campagnolo Europe suppresses the Euro prices due to high VAT, but it still doesn't explain the huge difference.


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## flatlander_48

Shipping definitely, but how about a difference in Warranty coverage policies?


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## bottecchia_eja

orange_julius said:


> I think it's the decision of Campagnolo USA to impose a huge price increase. Import duty alone doesn't explain the huge discrepancy (40% or more).
> 
> Or maybe Campagnolo Europe suppresses the Euro prices due to high VAT, but it still doesn't explain the huge difference.


Would the weaker dollar vs. the euro make US goods cheaper to buy (for Europeans) and European goods more expensive (for Americans)?

The question about the warranty is interesting. Would Campy USA be required to honor the UK Campy warranty?

It is like buying grey market cameras, lenses or electronic equipment. The USA company will not honor the warranty claims for grey market goods.

I recently purchased a Campy Record gruppo for my 2012 Bianchi Infinito. I made a conscious decision to buy it from my LBS, though it cost me a bit more than if I had bought it onlne from a UK seller. It may not be the best "dollar" decision to buy locally, but my LBS has done right by me and I would like for him to stay in business - in the long run my community and I benefit from his presence there. :thumbsup:


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## Mr. Scary

It's the value of the Euro versus the US dollar. Not many on here transact internationally apparently since the belief that Campy is part of some bizarre plot to inflate their prices 40% has been offered...


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## ultimobici

orange_julius said:


> I think it's the decision of Campagnolo USA to impose a huge price increase. Import duty alone doesn't explain the huge discrepancy (40% or more).
> 
> Or maybe Campagnolo Europe suppresses the Euro prices due to high VAT, but it still doesn't explain the huge difference.


What prices are you comparing the US price to?

If you take Record 11 Ergos, the RRP in the UK is £310 inc VAT ($485). But that assumes 0% duty on the goods. I know that you guys are not charged for individual parts on personal imports but I am sceptical that any western government would exempt a luxury item (sports gear) when it is imported by a business. So the RRP in the US of $600 is about "right" taking into account greater cost of transportation & duties.

But if your benchmark is Ribble or the like, they rarely have to deal with LBS type issues of returns & questions etc. Wiggle, Shinybike etc are warehouses with no bricks & mortar place to go to. So their overhead is much lower. Plus if you buy from them as a non-EU customer they're automatically 20% cheaper as VAT is not levied.

Finally Ribble in particular is not a fair comparator even in the UK. I work in a shop so can buy at cost. But if I need some Vittoria tyres it is cheaper for me to buy from Ribble as a retail customer than from Cyclesport North at wholesale! Similarly their Campag prices are discounted. The reason? The two are one and the same.


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## flatlander_48

bottecchia_eja said:


> The question about the warranty is interesting. Would Campy USA be required to honor the UK Campy warranty?


That wasn't exactly my point. What I was wondering is if the basic warranty policies are different? In other words, whether or not US policies are broader and more liberal than UK policies?


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## orange_julius

ultimobici said:


> What prices are you comparing the US price to?
> 
> If you take Record 11 Ergos, the RRP in the UK is £310 inc VAT ($485). But that assumes 0% duty on the goods. I know that you guys are not charged for individual parts on personal imports but I am sceptical that any western government would exempt a luxury item (sports gear) when it is imported by a business. So the RRP in the US of $600 is about "right" taking into account greater cost of transportation & duties.
> 
> But if your benchmark is Ribble or the like, they rarely have to deal with LBS type issues of returns & questions etc. Wiggle, Shinybike etc are warehouses with no bricks & mortar place to go to. So their overhead is much lower. Plus if you buy from them as a non-EU customer they're automatically 20% cheaper as VAT is not levied.
> 
> Finally Ribble in particular is not a fair comparator even in the UK. I work in a shop so can buy at cost. But if I need some Vittoria tyres it is cheaper for me to buy from Ribble as a retail customer than from Cyclesport North at wholesale! Similarly their Campag prices are discounted. The reason? The two are one and the same.


Ultimobici, I was comparing Ribble prices for non-EU buyers versus US MSRP pricing. Come to think of it, you are right, it isn't a fair comparison.


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## jpdigital

flatlander_48 said:


> Shipping definitely, but how about a difference in Warranty coverage policies?


I was able to have an Ultra Torque bearing replaced under warranty in the US; I purchased the crank from overseas (probikekit, I think it was). Of course, YMMV...


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## RussellS

jpdigital said:


> I was able to have an Ultra Torque bearing replaced under warranty in the US; I purchased the crank from overseas (probikekit, I think it was). Of course, YMMV...


I agree. I've had warranty replacement on a few bicycle parts over the years. Some bought mail order USA, some bought overseas mail order. The local bike shop that handled the warranty claim never asked where I got the part. They just looked at the manufacturer and sent it into that company's warranty department. Or they just traded the broken part for a new part in the store. Not sure any of them even worried whether the warranty was for 1 or 2 or 3 years. They just replaced the part.


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## Marz

'Magazine says:
105 = 609.93GBP
Apex = 588.94GBP
Centaur = 600.93GBP'

I thought Centaur is Ultegra equivalent, not 105, that's Veloce territory.


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## tommyturbo

Seems like this thread has gotten a bit off topic, but what the heck, "it's a free country."

Returning back to electronic shifting, I had my second opportunity to try Shimano electronic yesterday. Both times were on a trainer (so not a full evaluation by any means), and both times the Shimano factory rep was there. I still can't understand what all the fuss is about.

The Shimano rep kept telling me how great it was that the FD automatically trimmed itself as you shifted up and down the cassette. I asked why that was so important, seeing as how I don't have to trim my Campagnolo FD at all. Next he mentioned how nice it was that the rear shifter "remembers" the taps. In other words, if you want to shift up or down three cogs, you just push the button three times without waiting for the chain to move one cog at a time. I'm sure that's a great feature for those not used to the ability to move multiple cogs at a time like you can with Campy.

Shifts on the cassette were almost as quick but nowhere near as quiet as with my Super Record. Shifting in the front was great, but both of my SR bikes also work great, and one of them uses a 10s FD.

Just as with the other bike I tried, there was absolutely no feel as to what was going on when you pushed a button to shift. One of things I like best about Campy is the way the shifting feels compared to Shimano cable shifting. Shimano has managed to totally eliminate what little feel they had with the mechanical system. Some people like that I guess?

If it was important to me to be able to shift up to the big ring while doing a full out sprint, well, electronic shifting would do that really well. Even if that ability was important to me, and it's not at all, it still wouldn't be enough for me to even consider electronic Shimano or Campy. I imagine that Campy electronic will "feel" the same as Shimano, and for me that will be a sad day.


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## flatlander_48

Marz said:


> 'Magazine says:
> 105 = 609.93GBP
> Apex = 588.94GBP
> Centaur = 600.93GBP'
> 
> I thought Centaur is Ultegra equivalent, not 105, that's Veloce territory.


The pricing suggests otherwise, doesn't it?

Edit:
Maybe what Cycling+ did was to choose the groups based on price regardless of position. Remember that SRAM is Red > Force > Rival > Apex. Before 11spd, Campagnolo was Record > Chorus > Centaur. Before Di2, Shimano was Dura-Ace > Ultegra > 105. Historically, that's where the 105/Centaur equivalency came from.


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## flatlander_48

tommyturbo said:


> Seems like this thread has gotten a bit off topic, but what the heck, "it's a free country."


Actually, pricing strategy has bearing on the Campagnolo electronic system also as I would assume that the thought process would be the same through their entire line up.

For the electronic system, I would think that the consistency of the shifts would make a big difference. I am a bit of a traditionalist and that comes out, in part, as the reason why I have never owned a car with an automatic transmission. While I have missed shifts and "graunched" gearboxes over the years, you simply can't do that with a properly functioning automatic transmission. However, regarding deraileurs, I could lighten up a bit with the traditionalism. If the price is workable, I would consider the new Campagnolo system.

Personally, I seriously doubt that electronic shifting in bikes will displace manual shifting any time soon, if ever. I don't see why people are getting worked up about it. I don't think Shimano's biggest market for all their quality/innovation levels is at the Dura-Ace level. In the same vein, Di2 will probably have an even smaller market share. Same for Campagnolo regarding their electronic set up and Super Record.

Technology maven that I am (mechanical engineer) I checked out the Di2 shortly after it was introduced. You hear a bit of servomotor *w*hine and a shift. That's all. I would think that Campagnolo's would be essentially the same. Works for me...


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## tommyturbo

I like Flatlander's comments about using a manual transmission in a car. I can understand wanting an automatic with a Lexus, but not with a Porsche or a Ferrari. For me, Shimano vs. Campy comes down to Lexus vs. Ferrari. Both are great, and each will appeal to different types of drivers/riders.

As far as noise, both of the Di2 bikes I road had quite a bit of cassette noise while shifting. Perhaps this was due to the bikes being on a trainer.


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## flatlander_48

Nielly said:


> According to cycling news on feedback from interbike, *Campy electronic will be available in January 2012*. My LBS owner just got back from interbike and had a chance to see the electronic stuff up close. Says he wasn't overly impressed. Thought they could have done something different than the thumb bottons which he doesn't particularly care for. I don't recall him mentioning price. He also got the impression that the company is not fairing so well.


Heard this also at my favorite shop here in Taiwan a few days ago...


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## orange_julius

flatlander_48 said:


> Heard this also at my favorite shop here in Taiwan a few days ago...


Any guesses on pricing?

Campagnolo is introducing quite a few things in short succession: Ultra Torque, 11sp, Power Torque, Power Shift, Bullet wheels, and Electronic.


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## flatlander_48

No, he didn't say.


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## flatlander_48

However, evidently Campagnolo will make a big splash at the Taichung Bike Week in late November. That is the city where I am, so I'm going to see what I need to do to get in...


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## FrenchNago

*No Electronic Campy yet*

Idon't think campy electronic is going to be released soon as a standalone. Pinarello is getting it OEM on the Dogma for 2012.

Info from LBS and Mags on this side of the puddle (France).


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## T-Dog

Finally the details are out. I cant wait to pre-order it from either ribble or wiggle. It looks beautiful!!


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## willieboy

I'm in


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## JimmyORCA

Me too, where can I find a set???


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## T0mi

I'm not.

I'll wait for :
-cheaper chorus version
-upgrade kit (only shifting + battery + derailleurs), there is no point buying a full group
-additionnal shifting buttons


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## kbwh

FrenchNago said:


> Idon't think campy electronic is going to be released soon as a standalone. Pinarello is getting it OEM on the Dogma for 2012.
> 
> Info from LBS and Mags on this side of the puddle (France).


According to the CN/Bikeradar journo parts should be available for the aftermarket in January.

If this is turning out the "normal" Campagnolo way you should be able to buy single parts and mix n'match as you like, T0mi.

But here's one thing I don't get: Why do they use Chorus brake levers (no holes) on the Record EPS ergos? The prototypes I've seen were two holed. If I was the decision maker I'd have two holes for Record and three for Super Record just like on the mechanical versions. 

I expect to see Chorus EPS for MY13. Some polished Al on the rear derallieur cage, and some other slightly heavier mounting hardware. Oddly enough the Record EPS FD uses the cage from the mech Chorus FD, so maybe the only difference will be graphics for that. Not the first time.


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## willieboy

T0mi said:


> I'm not.
> 
> I'll wait for :
> -cheaper chorus version
> -upgrade kit (only shifting + battery + derailleurs), there is no point buying a full group
> -additionnal shifting buttons


You're right for sure. I won't be buying the whole group. Just need the SR11 levers and derailleurs. I would think the upgrade parts will be available soon.


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## ewitz

tommyturbo said:


> I like Flatlander's comments about using a manual transmission in a car. I can understand wanting an automatic with a Lexus, but not with a Porsche or a Ferrari. For me, Shimano vs. Campy comes down to Lexus vs. Ferrari. Both are great, and each will appeal to different types of drivers/riders.
> 
> As far as noise, both of the Di2 bikes I road had quite a bit of cassette noise while shifting. Perhaps this was due to the bikes being on a trainer.


Except that the latest high end Ferrari's (458 Italia, Enzo, Challenge Stradale and F430) were not available with a manual transmission. Flappy paddles only.


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## flatlander_48

ewitz said:


> Except that the latest high end Ferrari's (458 Italia, Enzo, Challenge Stradale and F430) were not available with a manual transmission. Flappy paddles only.


Actually it is a manual, only it is shifted by an automated mechanism that is tied into the engine management system. The technology is drawn from F-1 practice. It is not an automatic transmission...


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## tommyturbo

I agree with Cyclin Dan, and I still don't get what the fuss is all about regarding electronic shifting. Not only is SR11 faster and smoother with rear shifting, 11s is a lot quieter than 10s in terms of chain noise, etc. SR is a hell of a lot better looking, lighter, and has the fantastic "Campy feel."

Of course, I have only tried Di2 twice on trainers, but that was more than enough to convince me that I won't be pushing buttons to shift.


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## Cyclin Dan

I've spent a lot of time with Di2, and in my new build I opted for SR11. Di2 front shifting is better, rear shifting it's not. Campagnolo rear shifting (and Dura Ace mech for that matter) trumps Di2 in every way. 

This is of course just my opinion.


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