# This will never end will it?



## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

Cycling is horribly corrupt and there's no getting around it. Every stinking year there will be a major scandal and in my heart, although I put my head in the sand year after year, I know these just happend to be the one's getting caught. We think we've seen the iceberg. We haven't seen the iceberg; there's much much more underneath. I'm disgusted. Jaded too.

Ag2r director arrested 
One of the directors of the Ag2r team, Laurent Biondi, has been arrested in his house in Grenoble on Wednesday, suspected of being involved in a large Franco-Belgian drug trafficking ring. According to an article in L'Equipe, Biondi will be transferred to Bordeaux on Monday where he will be heard by the judge in charge of the investigation. Another person, not involved in professional cycling, was also arrested and will appear in Bordeaux. 

The investigation started in January and has so far involved 18 people, eight of whom are still in custody. Besides Biondi, former pro Laurent Roux and his brother Fabien have been arrested and are being held separately in southwestern France. The latter two are suspected to be at the centre of the drug ring.


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## moving up (Feb 18, 2003)

*Unintended consequences*



Sintesi said:


> Besides Biondi, former pro Laurent Roux and his brother Fabien have been arrested and are being held separately in southwestern France. The latter two are suspected to be at the centre of the drug ring.



Interesting that all of the efforts, scorn and suspicion focused especially on certain Americans has the unintended consequence of catching French riders time and again.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well when ya point a finger*

there's 3 pointing back at you. Once again, for the conspiracy theorists, it either proves that either these folks are really lame at concealing their cheating or CSC and Postal (now Discovery) are really sneaky.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Nah...*



atpjunkie said:


> there's 3 pointing back at you. Once again, for the conspiracy theorists, it either proves that either these folks are really lame at concealing their cheating or CSC and Postal (now Discovery) are really sneaky.


Look, there's been doping in cycling since its inception. It is, in my opinion, part of the sport now. It's embedded, and unfortunately always will be. More guys are getting caught now thanks to better testing, and better understanding of how it's done and why, but it will always be there. Always. Never going to go away. So you can either really live with it, do something about it, or ignore it completely, and just enjoy the sport. I still think relatively speaking, cycling is probably cleaner than other major pro sports, because of all the testing they do.


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## AmateurBiker (Feb 28, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> there's 3 pointing back at you. Once again, for the conspiracy theorists, it either proves that either these folks are really lame at concealing their cheating or CSC and Postal (now Discovery) are really sneaky.


Or there is a fact that you have to be careful while living in France. David Millar btw was really lame on concealing his cheating. I don't know how these guys can escape drug tests. Hamilton was really sneaky- but it didnt work out in the end.


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## SickBoy (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurent Roux served a drug suspension at some point a while back... which if you remember, he was riding for Jean Delatour at the end of his career (sub-par french team, Leblanc chose them over Saeco and Mercury for the tour that year). So the fact that he's running a doping ring should not be a huge surprise.

I find it funny that it's crappy D2 french teams at the center of this scandal. AG2R?? when was the last time they had someone win a decently big race or even get a result....


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

AmateurBiker said:


> Or there is a fact that you have to be careful while living in France. /QUOTE]
> 
> Which is why all the smart ones live in Spain, where they don't take doping seriously.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Utah CragHopper said:


> Which is why all the smart ones live in Spain, where they don't take doping seriously.


Doesn't Lance have a house in Spain too? Or was that Tyler?


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Both Hamilton and Armstrong have places in Spain - they live in the same block...

A good point about being careful in France - the anti-doping laws there are probably the toughest in the world, remember when Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano was banned from racing there for 6 months because of issues related to his asthma inhaler and unusually high levels of those drugs being found in his bloodstream.

It won't stop at AG2R - the French committment to rooting out what they see as a real cancer in the sport will turn up as many wrong doers as it can. It might be nice if other federations and countries treated the problem with the same amount of rigour - the Spanish anti-doping laws are a joke and, despite scandals galore, I don't exactly see America doing anymore than trying to sweep the doping problem under the carpet as a bit of an embarassment.

Sick Boy, I'm sure if I made comments about sub par Yankee teams you'd be all over me with charges of anti-Americanism. As I'm half French do you think you could cut it out with the rampant Francophobia?


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## AmateurBiker (Feb 28, 2005)

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=228471#post228471


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*I'm really curious how widespread it really is.*

The one argument that I can think of to support the idea that doping isn't systemic is that more tattle-tales don't exist. Manzano, Voet are two prominent examples, but if whole teams were doping, wouldn't we hear more about it? Picture this; your on Kelme for 4-5 years and you see and participate in team-sanctioned doping. (I just picked Kelme, I don't really have anything agianst them) Then your contract's up, and you get picked up by Saeco. (Again, just picking them out of a hat.) Wouldn't you bring your habits with you? And if that's the case, wouldn't you continue them and perhaps share them? Now, take that occurrence and multiply it over 30 years of cycling where pharmaceuticals are known to have been used. I mean, you're talking 1000's of pros and ex-pros that have to have known and done it. And yet, only a few come out? NOt saying that that's not possible, but unlikely. Too many fringe characters that would need money or want fame after their careers to keep the lid on it if you ask me.

BT


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## Pistard (Feb 28, 2005)

eyebob said:


> The one argument that I can think of to support the idea that doping isn't systemic is that more tattle-tales don't exist. Manzano, Voet are two prominent examples, but if whole teams were doping, wouldn't we hear more about it? Picture this; your on Kelme for 4-5 years and you see and participate in team-sanctioned doping. (I just picked Kelme, I don't really have anything agianst them) Then your contract's up, and you get picked up by Saeco. (Again, just picking them out of a hat.) Wouldn't you bring your habits with you? And if that's the case, wouldn't you continue them and perhaps share them? Now, take that occurrence and multiply it over 30 years of cycling where pharmaceuticals are known to have been used. I mean, you're talking 1000's of pros and ex-pros that have to have known and done it. And yet, only a few come out? NOt saying that that's not possible, but unlikely. Too many fringe characters that would need money or want fame after their careers to keep the lid on it if you ask me.
> 
> BT


Honour amongst theives. Biking is their livelyhood and they all respect that. Paul Kimmage refered to it as "spitting in the soup". It was VERY taboo of him to speak out on drug usage and he faced the same backlash that others have, namely that he was bitter and made up these lies for revenge. It was always there and always will be, but I'm glad that the system is at least trying to fight it rather than accept it and ignor the problem.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

SkidMarx said:


> Honour amongst theives. Biking is their livelyhood and they all respect that. Paul Kimmage refered to it as "spitting in the soup". It was VERY taboo of him to speak out on drug usage and he faced the same backlash that others have, namely that he was bitter and made up these lies for revenge. It was always there and always will be, but I'm glad that the system is at least trying to fight it rather than accept it and ignor the problem.



I know the NYPD was corrupt for years and years, thousands knew about the graft and no one says a word. I think that there is an omerta at work here. I mean who wants to rat on a teammate and destroy his livelyhood? It's hard to be the whistle blower. I think the doping enforcement agencies should recruit young riders to be moles to gather and document evidence. Get their allegiences and morals straight right off the bat, don't let them fall prey to a corrupt system and get lost in it.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Christophe Bassons was set up like that, to ride the Tour clean and report from inside the peloton. Funnily enough he was ordered off the race by one Lance Armstrong in a scene that he would repeat almost exactly with Filippo Simeoni.

When the _patron_ zips his lips and enforces the code of silence instead of stepping forward and acknowledging there is a problem and taking a lead in cleaning it up then there isn't going to be a lot of hope that some young kid in his first pro season is going to be allowed to be the saviour of the sport.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*These drugs weren't performance enhancers*

This was a guy possessing a new combo drug with narcotics and opiates. This guy was partying hard, not riding hard.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*That's an interesting story*

What's your source? 

Lance didn't "order" anyone off the race, with the Simeoni incident he simply didn't allow him to be part of a break away. That's different.

BT


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

eyebob said:


> Lance didn't "order" anyone off the race, with the Simeoni incident he simply didn't allow him to be part of a break away. That's different.


He tells one who refused to take part in the Festina doping program and who actively spoke out about drugs to quit the Tour and it would be better for cycling if he left the sport altogether, and he punishes the other for giving up the goods on the biggest dope doc of the decade. Yeah, different.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Sintesi said:


> I know the NYPD was corrupt for years and years, thousands knew about the graft and no one says a word.


That's a good point. If you ever get a chance to read the book Serpico, the amount of casual corruption was just amazing. Everything from graft to freebies from local businesss to cops going to hang outs with mattresses and such to sleep all day.

Armstrong showed the world several times what he thinks about people who break omerta.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Utah CragHopper said:


> Armstrong showed the world several times what he thinks about people who break omerta.


Right. And if LA really wanted to show leadership and integrity, he'd be the one to pop the bubble on the whole mess.

As if!


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

what would he lose? All his contracts? Maybe Nike wouldn't appreciate one of theirs coming out against drugs when their record of sponsoring 'clean' athletes isn't exactly remarkable. And what would happen in the peloton, do you suppose? They might all gang up against him - well, they've tried that in the Tour for the last 6 years to no effect.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

He might lose a few contracts, but he'd probably pick up just as many new ones from companies that want to be associated with a "cleaner" image. He'd piss off many in the peloton, but it wouldn't matter because since he's the _patron_, he'd command a certain level of respect and deference. It would level the playing field for all and give truer, more honest race results.

But he also might not be able to win another TdF, because then physically things would most likely change. I'm sure he has Tyler's fate in the back of his mind now too.


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## drevelo66 (Jan 22, 2005)

SickBoy said:


> I find it funny that it's crappy D2 french teams at the center of this scandal. AG2R?? when was the last time they had someone win a decently big race or even get a result....


Just for the record, Jaan Kirsipu (I'm sure I butchered that) was a heavy hitter for 'em when they were a D1 team, won some TDF stages.

It is funny that it's falling back on them, though...As a footnote, they had Laurent Brochard, who was part of the Festina scandal.


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## drevelo66 (Jan 22, 2005)

Bianchigirl said:


> It won't stop at AG2R - the French committment to rooting out what they see as a real cancer in the sport will turn up as many wrong doers as it can. It might be nice if other federations and countries treated the problem with the same amount of rigour - the Spanish anti-doping laws are a joke and, despite scandals galore, I don't exactly see America doing anymore than trying to sweep the doping problem under the carpet as a bit of an embarassment.
> 
> Sick Boy, I'm sure if I made comments about sub par Yankee teams you'd be all over me with charges of anti-Americanism. As I'm half French do you think you could cut it out with the rampant Francophobia?


Hey, my parents are French, too, but a lot of this, IMO, stems from the fact that France hasn't had a serious GC contender since, well, Bernard Hinault! My family had to content itself with T. Voeckler's admirable stint in yellow last year, and some were achingly jealous over an American (a TEXAN no less!) doing the unbelievable. I would hope that Sickboy's comments are all in fun...

America is not really concerned with doping, because it is barely considered at all here...Even if you are an American and you're not on the Lance bandwagon, part of you doesn't want him to retire for the reason that when he does, the American non-cycling public will forget about the sport altogether


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Again, show me your source.*

I'm not necessarily doubting you, just want to know where you got this from. 

And, for the record, those two incidents as described by Bianchigirl, are different. Simeoni was chased down by Armstrong and wasn't "allowed" to join a break, accordiing to Bianchigirl, Bassons was "ordered" of the race (whatever that means, no description of that event was provided). Simeoni wasn't "ordered" to do anything. If what's been implied is true of Armstrong, then the intent to quash those who broke the code of silence is _very_ similar, but the methods, to which I was speaking, are _different_. 

BT


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Armstrong made a point of cycling up to Bassons in the peloton and telling him to leave the race - seeking out a rider and telling them to shut their mouths seems to be something of an MO for Armstrong, wouldn't you say?


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

Here's Lance's version of what happened (http://www.lancearmstrong.com/99tdfwords.html):

_Q: What do you say to the insinuations by Chistophe Bassons and the French press that your performance so far is due to Performance Enhancing Drugs?

LA: I see a lot of innuendo, I see a lot of jealousy, a lot of unprofessionalism. What these people need to remember is that I was the World Champion in 1993 when no one had heard of drugs, no one had heard of EPO. I've proven my class, I've shown my class from Day 1.

There's no secrets here - we have the oldest secret in the world here: hard work! And if Bassons wants to cry and whine and say bad things about people, then he can do that - but it's not professional and I simply said to him "Look, if you're going to degrade me and degrade the sport, then you should go home" - so he went home..._​
And here's the BBC's take on it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/397135.stm)

_Reports say the reason why the Frenchman, Christophe Bassons, has pulled out of the race with only eight days to go is that he'd come under intense pressure from fellow riders to stay quiet.

One of his critics is said to have been the Tour leader -- the American, Lance Armstrong -- whose performance so far, after recovery from cancer, has astounded many commentators. _​
And ESPN (http://espn.go.com/cycling/france99/stage11.html):
_A French newspaper reported in Thursday's edition that Armstrong chastized Christophe Bassons, a French racer on the Francaise des Jeux team, for speaking out openly against doping. Whether it even actually happened or not seemed irrelevant to the European press. They have copy to file and they all wanted Armstrong's reaction._​Doesn't make Lance look good, but there's no smoking gun. Also, remember that it was not Armstrong, but Bassons's own team, FdJ, that told him to stop talking to the press about doping. All in all, it was a bit like a preview of this year's Matt Decanio business.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Pot Belge is hardly new - Willy Voet had pot belge in his car when he was nabbed in 1998. It's a mix of amphetamines (stimulant), analgesics (pain killers), caffeine (stimulant), cocaine (stimulant), heroin (pain killer). The PED effect of that kind of mix is pretty self explanatory, wouldn't you say? And it's acknowledged in the sport that pot belge, though not without its recreational uses, is yet another PED in the arsenal.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

AJS said:


> He might lose a few contracts, but he'd probably pick up just as many new ones from companies that want to be associated with a "cleaner" image.


Oh, come on. Let's get real. If Armstrong tried this he would be persona non grata to sponsors as well as fellow cyclists. Twenty mil a year would go up in smoke. No cyclists would come forward to back him.

Love the new avatar, BTW. So true.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Utah CragHopper said:


> Oh, come on. Let's get real. If Armstrong tried this he would be persona non grata to sponsors as well as fellow cyclists. Twenty mil a year would go up in smoke. No cyclists would come forward to back him.
> 
> Love the new avatar, BTW. So true.




Maybe at first that would be the case, but I dunno - seems like once the lid was off, the inevitability of "the game is up" would have to be faced. Everyone would be in the same boat with not using anymore, so what good would it do to shun him if he were the one to step up? 

It would seem that the only winner of 6 would have the authority just from his accomplishments to show the leadership to the rest of the world, and in the end might even gain more respect for the honesty.

At least that's how I would look at LA if something like that were to happen. But yeah, maybe in another universe, but it won't ever happen in this one.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Awesome post.*

That's all I'm asking for from Bianchigirl and Utah, just post the relevent sources and let us decide.

If LA did in fact do this to Bassons, then yes, that's definitely part of his MO. But it could be interpreted as a "he said, she said" sort of thing. 

Thanks again for you post.

BT


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

eyebob said:


> That's all I'm asking for from Bianchigirl and Utah, just post the relevent sources and let us decide.


Translated from the newpaper report when Bassons retired from the sport:

"Christophe Bassons, seen by many as the face of drug-free cycling since the
doping scandals of 1998 that enveloped the Festina team, has decided to
retire from the sport. "We had a meeting on Wednesday afternoon. Christophe
Bassons asked me to break the contract that was binding him with our team
until the end of the year," Delatour team chief Michel Gros said.
Bassons, who started riding professionally in 1996, became the symbol of a
cleaner sport when with almost his entire team implicated in the scandal,
his teammates admitted he was one of the only riders in the team who had
refused to take the performance enhancers.

With his team kicked out of the race in 1998 for doping, Bassons recently
said he was "fed up" with cycling and that he had had to put up with
"harassment" from other competitors.

"My current experience is hard to live and I'm afraid I might crack up," he
told daily newspaper Liberation in an interview last week.

The Frenchman also said that during the 1999 Tour de France, American
cyclist Lance Armstrong had approached him and told him it was in the best
interests of the sport if he quit the race.

"...during a stage, Armstrong came to me and told me I was doing a lot of
harm to cycling", Bassons told Reuters. "He (Armstrong) told me I had better
go home," he said of quitting that race and skipping the event in 2000.

While Armstrong was the man that told Bassons what he thought about the
Frenchman's comments in a column about doping in the Le Parisien daily,
Bassons says he has more respect for Armstrong for having aired his
thoughts.

"At least he was honest about it while others were just talking behind my
back," Bassons said at the time. "

Google is your friend. It helps if you read french, but the incident was widely reported in the english press, including the american version of Cycle Sport.

LeMond said it best: "The problem with Lance is that (if you raise questions about
doping) you're either a liar or you're out to destroy cycling," He said that well before LA pulled his stunt with Simeoni, proving himself more prescient than Karnak the Magnificent.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Seems like LeMond is the one being honest here, yet people like to slag him. But I wonder why he's dancing around the issue instead of coming right out with what sounds like "the whole peloton dopes, and I've seen it." Is he afraid he wouldn't sell anymore bikes?


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

probably - Trek would certainly pull his distribution deal and, unfortunately, as he is no longer the 'most winningest' his opinions have less value.

Lemond has always seemed really angry about it to me, and has probably said as much as he dares without getting embroiled in a costly lawsuit or having yet more 'Lance Lovers' accuse him of jealousy and sour grapes. Sadly, if Lemond spilled the beans (and it seems certain he has them to spill) he would come off worst - seems that's what happens to whistle blowers.


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## johngfoster (Jan 14, 2005)

*Where's the competition?*

If PED's are as prevalent as everyone is saying, and LA were to blow the wistle on this, many, many riders would be out and (assuming LA's clean) there wouldn't be any competition for him. Where's the fun in that?


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

I just read Jeukendrup's Cyclists Training book, he has an amazing chapter at the end of the book detailing HCr levels of all cyclists tested anonymously in the Tour de France. He basically concluded that they're all on the juice.

When the entire peleton's HCr values are between 46-48% yet a normal athletic distribution is 42-49%, you can conclude that the entire population is under a blood manipulation program.


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## kaa (Feb 14, 2005)

moving up said:


> Interesting that all of the efforts, scorn and suspicion focused especially on certain Americans has the unintended consequence of catching French riders time and again.


Wrong, it is just the way it is, L A or not L A. These guys take and sell drugs ( "belgian pot"= amphetamines+ coke+heroin+ etc ) and have to be confronted to the law.They are not the first, nor the last.


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## johngfoster (Jan 14, 2005)

*I don't understand*



Spunout said:


> I just read Jeukendrup's Cyclists Training book, he has an amazing chapter at the end of the book detailing HCr levels of all cyclists tested anonymously in the Tour de France. He basically concluded that they're all on the juice.
> 
> When the entire peleton's HCr values are between 46-48% yet a normal athletic distribution is 42-49%, you can conclude that the entire population is under a blood manipulation program.


I don't understand: if the normal range of valuses is 42-49% and the entire Peloton is 46-48%, then they are within the normal range of values. How does this mean that they are all on the juise?


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

johngfoster said:


> I don't understand: if the normal range of valuses is 42-49% and the entire Peloton is 46-48%, then they are within the normal range of values. How does this mean that they are all on the juise?


What he is saying is that the whole distribution curve has been shifted right. Any given individual may fall into the normal range but looking at the group as a whole shows clear proof of blood manipulation.

It's as if I had a six sided die and told you I rolled a six four times out of thirty. The outcome is close to what you would expect if it was a fair die. If I tell you I rolled fifteen sixes out of thirty then you would suspect the die is loaded.

With a 180 member peloton the chance of getting results that are way out of the norm is extremely small.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Utah CragHopper said:


> With a 180 member peloton the chance of getting results that are way out of the norm is extremely small.


Yeah, now I don't feel so bad that I could probably never do Izoard at a 28 kph average.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

Utah CragHopper said:


> What he is saying is that the whole distribution curve has been shifted right. Any given individual may fall into the normal range but looking at the group as a whole shows clear proof of blood manipulation.
> 
> It's as if I had a six sided die and told you I rolled a six four times out of thirty. The outcome is close to what you would expect if it was a fair die. If I tell you I rolled fifteen sixes out of thirty then you would suspect the die is loaded.
> 
> With a 180 member peloton the chance of getting results that are way out of the norm is extremely small.



Another indicator is the one Paul Sherwen likes to point out about the size of the peloton in the hills. How were all these guys managing to hang on in the 90's where in the 80's the group would be exploded when the hills got savage. The blight of individual doping is more apparent if you just look at the aggregate. This really was what people like Lemond and Hampsten were saying about the change in the peloton. All of a sudden there were like 20-30 extra guys hanging around at the head of the race that were never there before. Why? The race wasn't getting any slower.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

Even more than the distribution shifting slightly to the right (mean value shifts from 45.5 to 47, if I can assume that the distributions are symmetric), the reduction in the variance by a factor of three is striking. This very narrow distribution is the kind of thing you'd expect if the haematocrit is being titrated to remain just a little lower than the 50% cutoff for disqualification.


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## mgp (Feb 3, 2004)

Or it could simply mean that the selective pressure for becoming a professional cyclist would tend to skew the distribution as indicated. It is an aerobic sport last time I checked.

Yeah, many are probably doping, but without more information on what "athletes" make up this "normal" range, Jeukendrup's conclusion isn't the most well reasoned.


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## Pistard (Feb 28, 2005)

Fredke said:


> LA: I see a lot of innuendo, I see a lot of jealousy, a lot of unprofessionalism. What these people need to remember is that I was the World Champion in 1993 when no one had heard of drugs, no one had heard of EPO. I've proven my class, I've shown my class from Day 1.


No one had heard of drugs in '93?!!!! WTF.



Fredke said:


> ....And if Bassons wants to cry and whine and say bad things about people, then he can do that - but it's not professional and I simply said to him "Look, if you're going to degrade me and degrade the sport, then you should go home" - so he went home...


Doesn't anyone else see the hypocrisy in this statement? LA is the most self-righteous and outspoken condemner of drug usage (yet he refuses to out the culprits). That's why I can't stand to look at the guy. I hope he gets caught and caught big time.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Sherwen*

has also gone on record as of late (post Festina) that the peloton is returning to it's more exploded state in the climbs which would lead to the thought that doping may be on the decline. Both he and Phil have noticed a return to the pre 90's gruppetto in the hilly GT stages.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

yet Armstrong has recently said that racing is getting faster and faster 'Year by year, the group has gotten deeper and faster; cycling is a competitive sport, you know. And I think that's what leads to faster races, faster performances' 

This he attributes to better training and diet - as if cyclists for the last 100 years have fannyed about eating what they like and only getting on their bikes come race day (Tom Simpson would have a lot to say about that) but then he didn't think EPO was around in the 90s and declared that doping in the peloton was 'finito' in 1999...


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