# Levi = stupid



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Was Levi channeling the spirit of Julich on the run-in today? A few weeks before the tour and he decides in a meaningless move to solo in on rain soaked roads taking chances thru the roundabouts? He's lucky when he hit the curb that he didn't break something. It was bad enough to try to follow the attacks on the last descent in the rain. Why is it that every American other than Armstrong seems to crash at the worst possible times?


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

stevesbike said:


> Why is it that every American other than Armstrong seems to crash at the worst possible times?


Because they have to race a full calender?

But how do you figure this was the worst possible time. I can think of lots worse.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

That's bike racing. Interesting that, Vino was preparing for the TdF, yet he took home two stages, with teammates taking two others.

Levi and Disco took home their tails. Tucked firmly between their legs, of course.

I like Levi, I hope he has a successful Tour, but Vino has much more panache. I'm not sure what's up with Disco. They seem befuddled. You'd think with the sponsorship situation up in the air, riders would be trying to show some form. Other than Operacion Contador, not much there.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> I like Levi, I hope he has a successful Tour, but Vino has much more panache.


How about Vino is just plain better and more experienced than Levi? I agree, Disco seemed lost in this Dauphine. Hope they're just saving it up, but ever since the end of the tour de georgia, they haven't really done much of anything (Gusev's Tour of Luxembourg success excluded) and it looks like the balance of June will be quiet for Disco.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

> How about Vino is just plain better and more experienced than Levi?


I like mine better. Plus, why is Vino more experienced? Levi was a team leader at Rabo, Gerolsteiner, and now Discovery.

Vino is just now getting his chance. Moreover, I haven't seen much attacking from Levi at the big races, whereas Vino is known for it.


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## yarble (Dec 16, 2005)

FondriestFan said:


> I like mine better. Plus, why is Vino more experienced? Levi was a team leader at Rabo, Gerolsteiner, and now Discovery.
> 
> Vino is just now getting his chance. Moreover, I haven't seen much attacking from Levi at the big races, whereas Vino is known for it.


vino has won the vuelta. i think he wins in the experience category.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

yarble said:


> vino has won the vuelta. i think he wins in the experience category.


Thank you. And Vino's won L-B-L; Amstel Gold; Paris-Nice (twice); Tour de Suisse; the Dauphine in 1999 -- seven years before Levi; the Silver Medal in the 2000 Olympics RR; the Tour of Germany; at least three TdF stages; and on the TdF podium in 2003. Levi, on the other hand, has won the Dauphine, the Tour of Germany, the Tour of California and got the Vuelta podium once. No TdF stage wins. Levi is a personal favorite rider of mine, but it's fair to say Levi's not as experienced as Vino.


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## tricycletalent (Apr 2, 2005)

I think somebody is confusing tactical talent with experience here.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

tricycletalent said:


> I think somebody is confusing tactical talent with experience here.


Or success with experience. It didn't look like Levi was taking a risk by taking the roundabout too fast, he was right in the middle of the road and he didn't lean the bike over too far and slide out. He just started to pedal too soon and slide out his back wheel.


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## bonkmiester (Sep 23, 2005)

...It's All About the Tires...


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

fornaca68 said:


> Thank you. And Vino's won L-B-L; Amstel Gold; Paris-Nice (twice); Tour de Suisse; the Dauphine in 1999 -- seven years before Levi; the Silver Medal in the 2000 Olympics RR; the Tour of Germany; at least three TdF stages; and on the TdF podium in 2003. Levi, on the other hand, has won the Dauphine, the Tour of Germany, the Tour of California and got the Vuelta podium once. No TdF stage wins. Levi is a personal favorite rider of mine, but it's fair to say Levi's not as experienced as Vino.


Levi knows not to make crazy attacks every 5 minutes?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Astana sure looks like the team to beat. They are working well together and can put together a superb strategy for the tour by letting Vino attack, forcing GC contenders to either let him go or burn out trying to match him. They can let Kloden shadow the other GC contenders in case Vino falters. If teams ride as negatively as they did last year (letting Pereiro and Landis both get big chunks of time) Vino could make one attack stick. Levi is vulnerable to that kind of strategy since he typically pops in the middle of at least one stage.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

bas said:


> Levi knows not to make crazy attacks every 5 minutes?


. . . or ever.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*A casual comment from afar*

I didn't watch or follow the Dauphne very closely other than to know that Astana and AG2R were impressive but I offer this thought on Disco.

When Lance rode these tune-up races, he became famous for not wanting to "go into the Red" He very rarely, especially later in his career, went nutty in any of these races for the sake of saving himself for the TdF. Remember when Mayo beat him badly up the Alpe D'Huez? Remember all the rumblings about how Mayo was finally "there?" Remember after the TdF when Lance was like "uh, yeah, I didn't want to go too far into the Red."

this may be a strategy of Disco's not to overheat their riders, or they didn't have phenominal form, or their team tactics stunk.

We'll see.

BT


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

eyebob said:


> this may be a strategy of Disco's not to overheat their riders, or they didn't have phenominal form, or their team tactics stunk.


Seemed pretty clear that Levi along with Vino were doing this as a training race and weren't willing to dig very deeply. Kashechkin also looked unwilling at times to really give it his all. Maybe Contador as well? Periero explicitly stated he was there just for training. Moreau definitely benefited from some likely challengers not being willing to give it 100%. Evans might have been the only other likely TdF protagonist who was giving it full-stick in the race.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

bas said:


> Levi knows not to make crazy attacks every 5 minutes?


Stage victory count at the DL:

Vino 2
Levi 0


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm a Levi and Disco fan, and I hope they're "ready" for what Astana and CSC are coming to the Tour with. Astana has one stud after another, and Vino has a monster opportunity for success at tdf. I just don't see Kloden, Savo and company being "domestiques" with as much talent they're bringing.
I'd say that barring injury/illness, Vino NOT winning tdf would be a dissapointment or even failure.


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## coinstar2k (Apr 17, 2007)

Don't forget that the teams are meeting tomorrow with the UCI. We should wait until after the meeting to predict winners in TDF.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

coinstar2k said:


> Don't forget that the teams are meeting tomorrow with the UCI. We should wait until after the meeting to predict winners in TDF.


I doubt the UCI will force anyone out of the race who doesn't have a doping case pending, they might not even be able to legally. ASO and/or the team managers group are the ones who will likely keep OP riders out if they are not allowed to race.


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## coinstar2k (Apr 17, 2007)

The UCI will make the Puerto list available. The teams have already committed to suspending riders on that list. If you are of the opinion that there won't be any suspensions before this tour, unfortunately, I think you are mistaken.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

coinstar2k said:


> The UCI will make the Puerto list available. The teams have already committed to suspending riders on that list. If you are of the opinion that there won't be any suspensions before this tour, unfortunately, I think you are mistaken.


Actual suspensions? I doubt it, simply not enough time for the process. I think riders will be prevented from racing by either the ASO or by agreement of the teams, similar to what happened last year.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Apparently, no surprises are expected at the meeting.

Per cyclingnews:

No surprises expected from UCI meeting

There won't be any big surprises coming out of the UCI's meeting tomorrow with the ProTour team managers and team doctors, UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani has said. "There will be very important decisions made, dealing with the future of cycling, but they won't have anything specifically to do with the Tour de France." He indicated to the dpa press agency that there wasn't time to deal with the 6000 pages of the Operación Puerto documents (read Additional Operación Puerto dossier reveals extensive new evidence) before the start of the Tour de France, thus damping the possibility that riders, teams or management personnel might be excluded from the race.

However, another meeting on the same day might prove more interesting. The International Professional Cycling Teams (IPCT) will debate which members uphold its Code of Ethics, and which members risk expulsion because they do not uphold it. While the IPCT cannot enforce its decision, it could influence the Tour de France organizers who have indicated that they might make exclusions to the race's start list.

"It is time for names to be named," said Gerolsteiner team manager Hans-Michael Holczer to Tagesspiegel.de. "It is an unbearable situation that some 200 blood bags from alleged Fuentes clients are stored in Spain, and with a with a DNA comparison we could find out which rider they belong to. But which we can't do right now under the law."


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## hacker (Apr 2, 2007)

That line about 'not having enough time to go through 6000 pages' is getting a little worn out. It was scarcely believable two months ago and it's hardly creditable now. The UCI's been through every single sentence by now and the only thing left to evaluate is 1) the chances of lawsuits over exclusions, 2) the potential of fights with ASO over exclusions and/or non-exclusions (since ASO hasn't had access to the full report), and 3) the public-relations impacts of further arguments with the race organizers.

There may not be any surprises, but it's more because the UCI is still feeling the results of last year's last-minute exclusions, than it is from not being able to read the entire document.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

hacker said:


> That line about 'not having enough time to go through 6000 pages' is getting a little worn out. It was scarcely believable two months ago and it's hardly creditable now. The UCI's been through every single sentence by now and the only thing left to evaluate is 1) the chances of lawsuits over exclusions, 2) the potential of fights with ASO over exclusions and/or non-exclusions (since ASO hasn't had access to the full report), and 3) the public-relations impacts of further arguments with the race organizers.
> 
> There may not be any surprises, but it's more because the UCI is still feeling the results of last year's last-minute exclusions, than it is from not being able to read the entire document.


Nail. Hammer. Head. 

Completely agree.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Because...*



stevesbike said:


> Was Levi channeling the spirit of Julich on the run-in today? A few weeks before the tour and he decides in a meaningless move to solo in on rain soaked roads taking chances thru the roundabouts? He's lucky when he hit the curb that he didn't break something. It was bad enough to try to follow the attacks on the last descent in the rain. Why is it that every American other than Armstrong seems to crash at the worst possible times?


Because Levi knows that he's not going to win the Tour de France, or even come close.


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## hacker (Apr 2, 2007)

magnolialover said:


> Because Levi knows that he's not going to win the Tour de France, or even come close.



I'd say he's already come close. I'd also be willing to bet that he'd be a good choice for a podium place this year, but that's just me 


As to why he rode that hard and took those kinds of chances.... maybe he was just feeling his legs and wanted a win. Maybe he thought it was safer than it really was. Maybe he was trying to prove something to a sponsor. Heck, maybe he was trying to train for the TDF as realistically as possible. Who knows?


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*He has never...*



hacker said:


> I'd say he's already come close. I'd also be willing to bet that he'd be a good choice for a podium place this year, but that's just me
> 
> 
> As to why he rode that hard and took those kinds of chances.... maybe he was just feeling his legs and wanted a win. Maybe he thought it was safer than it really was. Maybe he was trying to prove something to a sponsor. Heck, maybe he was trying to train for the TDF as realistically as possible. Who knows?


He has never come close to winning the Tour de france, and won't either. He'll not see the podium this year, or any year in le Tour.


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## hacker (Apr 2, 2007)

magnolialover said:


> He has never come close to winning the Tour de france, and won't either. He'll not see the podium this year, or any year in le Tour.



He's been in the top 10 three times. IMO that's been close. We can argue times versus competitors all you want and we can end up agreeing to disagree. In my book top ten finishes are close enough to give the guy a taste of what "could be."


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> Was Levi channeling the spirit of Julich on the run-in today? A few weeks before the tour and he decides in a meaningless move to solo in on rain soaked roads taking chances thru the roundabouts? He's lucky when he hit the curb that he didn't break something. It was bad enough to try to follow the attacks on the last descent in the rain. Why is it that every American other than Armstrong seems to crash at the worst possible times?


I think it is a hell of a lot simpler then you guys are making this... It is b/c Disco needs some damn good results to recruit next years sponsor. 

I was confident about Disco's future sponsor until George left the team yesterday. My personal opinion is that if there was a new sponsor, or some good potential for a new sponsor, he would have stayed. But now, I am not so sure.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> Was Levi channeling the spirit of Julich on the run-in today? A few weeks before the tour and he decides in a meaningless move to solo in on rain soaked roads taking chances thru the roundabouts? He's lucky when he hit the curb that he didn't break something. It was bad enough to try to follow the attacks on the last descent in the rain. Why is it that every American other than Armstrong seems to crash at the worst possible times?


he was fine until he started pedaling through the turn (or was trying to put the right pedal down).

he's got to be sore on his right hip and probably left from hitting the curb. Nice job! :thumbsup:


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## Kris Flatlander (Sep 9, 2006)

Kestreljr said:


> I think it is a hell of a lot simpler then you guys are making this... It is b/c Disco needs some damn good results to recruit next years sponsor.
> 
> I was confident about Disco's future sponsor until George left the team yesterday. My personal opinion is that if there was a new sponsor, or some good potential for a new sponsor, he would have stayed. But now, I am not so sure.


So George is officialy confirmed to be going to T-Mobile next year? Seems like bad timing with the Tour right around the corner.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

Kris Flatlander said:


> So George is officialy confirmed to be going to T-Mobile next year? Seems like bad timing with the Tour right around the corner.


Some make it sound more definite then others... but I think the general consensus is that he is moving to T-mobile, they are just not ready to make an announcement yet. Do a google search with his name and you will see the articles.


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## wyomingclimber (Feb 26, 2004)

I think people are a little hard on Levi. He obviously felt good and saw an opportunity to take a stage for the team. I watched that crash in slow motion and I don't think he was taking unneccesary chances. He just had a bit of bad luck.

As far as having no chance at a podium spot, that seems to defy history. He was sixth once, wasn't he? And IIRC at least 3 of the people who beat him aren't racing this year.

Vino could blow himself up with pointless attacks and someone might finally concede that Valverde actually glows in the dark if you turn the lights out.

I see that as a podium position.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

immediately after Levi went down, people at Disco. gotta have the worst 3 seconds of their life, especially Y.B. yeah i agree with most people here, what the " F " was Levi was thinking?? he's there to " train " not race, right?? i do want American to win France's national sport. what do french people going to accuse levi after he wins the tour?? he uses Rogains?? hahah


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> Was Levi channeling the spirit of Julich on the run-in today? A few weeks before the tour and he decides in a meaningless move to solo in on rain soaked roads taking chances thru the roundabouts? He's lucky when he hit the curb that he didn't break something. It was bad enough to try to follow the attacks on the last descent in the rain. Why is it that every American other than Armstrong seems to crash at the worst possible times?


 I thought it was a questionable move as well, but just like NASCAR drivers with no chance at a win will chew up their tires and burn too much gas for a few laps at the front, cyclists will take risks to get up their as well and for the same reason- to get the sponsor's name on TV. Or maybe he was just testing his legs for the Tour, seeing if he could really hold off Vino.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

The original post(not poster so don't get upset) is stupid.....not Levi. Racing is about taking some risks.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

dagger said:


> The original post(not poster so don't get upset) is stupid.....not Levi. Racing is about taking some risks.


So is knowing when to take them.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

dagger, you need to learn about race strategies. Taking a meaningless flyer in the rain during a tune-up race two weeks before your main goal of the season is stupid. Period. There was nothing to accomplish by doing it. A tour GC contender doesn't need to be making noises during these races--look at Kloden. Almost completely off the radar but peaking nicely as shown by a third place finish today in the tour de suisse. This is maybe Levi's best and last chance at winning the tour. He's finally on a team that might give him real support, it might not be around next year, and even if it is failure this year is going to make it hard to keep the rising stars in a supporting role in the future. If you've seen the Julich footage of his encounter with a curb you'll know how easily Levi could have ended up breaking something. Look at the WTF look on Vino's face when he goes by him-it's a classic 'dumbass' stare...


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

stevesbike said:


> dagger, you need to learn about race strategies. Taking a meaningless flyer in the rain during a tune-up race two weeks before your main goal of the season is stupid. Period.


Unless you want performance data to test or manage training. Maybe not so stupid after all.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*LOL....maybe u should reconsider*



stevesbike said:


> dagger, you need to learn about race strategies. ..


This "warm-up" race is generally used to give the cyclist and his trainer information on what the rider is capable of when they determine the training schedule for the final few weeks. It also gives them date for "in race" strategies. Levi is a huge lover of his powermeter and I am sure he needed to determine what he could do for those last 4km. Up until that point in the race he had not been physically capable of doing a test. 

Have you ever heard a rider say they will not contend the overall of these prep races but will pick a stage to perform a test. I laugh at your ignorance of my learning of race strategies...........so just let it be and walk away with your calling everybody stupid.


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