# Windsor Hour



## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

I was thinking of buying one from BD . What is with the warning tighten the rear wheel b4 and after riding? Is it a problem design or is this a standard for fixed rides? 
2nd question would I be better off converting my old bike a Ross see pic
http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/showphoto.php?photo=12103&cat=500&ppuser=270894
perhaps buying a fixed set of wheels etc etc?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I had an Hour for about 6 months.. It's fine for the price. 

I wouldn't buy another one but that's just me..

As for the tightening of the wheel, that is just lawyer speak...it's not a design problem


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Dave Hickey said:


> I wouldn't buy another one but that's just me..


Why? Overall quality?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

The bike is fine for a $300 bike...I'm not a fan of BD...I don't buy into the whole 50% off thing... The Hour is a $300 bike...nothing more...nothing less


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Dave Hickey said:


> The bike is fine for a $300 bike...I'm not a fan of BD...I don't buy into the whole 50% off thing... The Hour is a $300 bike...nothing more...nothing less


Ok.

Put away feelings for BD. For someone's first fixie/ss and jusr wants a entry-level bike, the Hour, Moto or Mericer are fine right?

The frames are generic steel. Parts seem fine. I guess the wheels are crap?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

DIRT BOY said:


> Ok.
> 
> Put away feelings for BD. For someone's first fixie/ss and jusr wants a entry-level bike, the Hour, Moto or Mericer are fine right?
> 
> The frames are generic steel. Parts seem fine. I guess the wheels are crap?



I can't speak for the other models.. The Hour had so-so wheels, tires, a crappy cog( I think newer models were changed), and a crappy stem..


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## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

*Ditto*

So is it the wheels as there isn't much componet wise.? Would I be turned off from riding a fixie?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

You have to try fixie riding in order to decide if you like it..If there is an LBS near you that has one to test ride, try it. If you like it, than consider one of the BD offerings.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Dave's right. We had a Motobecane Messenger that we brought up from our San Diego store, and have seen several Windsor Hours in for service. They're fine for "$300" bikes, but that's just what they are - $300 bikes.

A solid wheelset for a fixie will set you back $150 minimum retail, so figure out the rest.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

one thing that so many people don't seem to understand...It is very rare to buy almost anything for less than it is worth...period, if you buy a 1000 dollar bike for 600 dollars, it ceases to be a 1000 dollar bike and becomes a 600 dollar bike.

I have people come to me, "hey I bought this ring, it was marked down from 800 bucks to 300, what's it worth."....It is worth whatever they could sell it for...

I paid 400 for a NOS 2005 Langster.....I figured it to be a 400 dollar bike not a 650 dollar bike....not a bad bike but not the best components, but not bad for a 400 dollar bike. Certainly good enough for my needs

Used may be a different story....


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## warmseth (May 11, 2006)

hey rich, what city are you in? i have a crappy fixie that you could keep for a day or two and ride around to see if you like it. i'm in la


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

I paid $250 for a NOS Sekai 4000 frame and fork (handmade Japanese lugged steel) and, to me, it is worth so much more than that (it's probably worth more at the yellow jersey too).


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## 93561rider (Dec 6, 2007)

richk said:


> I was thinking of buying one from BD . What is with the warning tighten the rear wheel b4 and after riding? Is it a problem design or is this a standard for fixed rides?
> 2nd question would I be better off converting my old bike a Ross see pic
> http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/showphoto.php?photo=12103&cat=500&ppuser=270894
> perhaps buying a fixed set of wheels etc etc?



I went through this very thing a month or so ago. I wanted a fixie that I could ride at lunch and to the bar for dinner while I was in HB for work. I didn't want to spend much because it would be left locked outside while at dinner.

I ended up going with the SE Lager. It cost 475 at my LBS. The wheels and some of the components are a bit nicer than the 300 bikes. I ride it about 18-20 miles during lunch a couple days a week, and then around town in the evenings. I wouldn't go with a bike of any less quality than the one I have.

Cam


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## RoyIII (Feb 24, 2007)

You should build up your Ross.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

listen to Roy.....he knows....


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## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

If you want to try out riding fixed, convert your Ross.

The track rental I used last year was the same frame as the Windsor with KHS paint. Worth the $4 rental fee but I figured out I didn't want to buy a Windsor. 

Have fun with your Ross. If you decide you have to move on to something else, there are plenty of decent frames available for not too much cash.


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## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

*b4 pic*

track wheels ordered a few items from Lick bike will post and update picture after its finished .................:thumbsup:
http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/showphoto.php?photo=10933&cat=500&ppuser=270894


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## mindgam35 (Oct 17, 2007)

i dont know if you converted your old bike or what, but i have a windsor and really enjoy it.

I converted my first fixed, and it was ok; fun for a while, but now that i have the windsor, i find it to be a much more enjoyable ride. I think going from an old clunky road conversion, to an actual track frame makes a HUGE difference, whether it is a $1000 or a $300 bike.

so when, and if you get tired of your conversion, id go for it. when i got mine, i did change a few things. put Nitto 021 bars, new pedals, and a different saddle.. makes an amazing little track bike!

-there are pictures of both my windsor and conversion on pg 20 of "post your fixed gears" on the main page of the single/fixed gear forum


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## nobody (Apr 23, 2006)

I converted a couple fixies in the past, they were alright, but then i picked up my Windsor....and i really like it.

Its undergone some changes, threw a front brake on it that i had lyin around, threw my IRO wheels on it, and now some flatbars. I didn't have any probs with the orig wheels, i tensioned 'em up when i got 'em, and ended up just putting them on my SS beater... I think my biggest complaint would be the flexy stem, but haven't had enough reason to replace it yet.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

I bought an Hour back in December (no new pics, sorry folks) and I changed out the fork, seatpost, saddle, stem, handlebars, chainring, pedals, and added a front brake. Now it's a nice bike....but keep in mind I had most of that stuff on hand so it didn't cost me much.

Oh, and I wadded it up on the greenway last week and tacoed the front wheel, swapped it out with an Ultegra/Open Pro I had laying around. Soon the only thing left from bikesdirect will be the frame! :thumbsup:


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Richard said:


> Dave's right. We had a Motobecane Messenger that we brought up from our San Diego store, and have seen several Windsor Hours in for service. They're fine for "$300" bikes, but that's just what they are - $300 bikes.
> 
> A solid wheelset for a fixie will set you back $150 minimum retail, so figure out the rest.


Sorry Dick
But youre wrong about this

Same exact bike is sold all over the country for $550 in stores 
PM or e-mail me for details

Several exact spec bikes are sold at different prices with different decals on them
this is not uncommon

In two months we will be selling a track bike for $299 delivered that is EXACTLY like one sold for $539 all over [this bike was actually ordered based on info from one of Dave's post]

Of course, non-indusry insiders may not get it
but pro's like you and I know the score
so if you want factory spec sheets and OE costs
just e-mail me


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> In two months we will be selling a track bike for $299 delivered that is EXACTLY like one sold for $539 all over [this bike was actually ordered based on info from one of Dave's post]


Any info? I might wait.


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## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

*I have committed my self*

Started taking all the parts off not sure if it will lighten it up enough though it weighs in at 30#'s before stripping it. I probably will be selling the parts off later on Altus front drailur and rear plus the chrome wheels if any one is interested in them....Now I have a question what to do with the ugly bosses.. Any suggestions?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Any info? I might wait.


colors
matt black
bright blue
dark green

sizes 49, 52, 54, 56, 58, 61

Frame 100% Cr-Mo, Water Bottle Mount 
Fork Triple Butted 100% Cr-Mo w/ Fender Mounts 
Headset Ritchey 1-1/8" Threadless 
Handlebars Alloy Bullhorn 
Stem Forged Alloy, 7 Degree 
Grips Velo Cushion Wrap Foam 
Brake Lever Tektro RX4.1, Alloy, F&R 
Brake(s) Tektro 510A Dual Pivot Caliper F&R 
Seat Post Micro Adjust Alloy 27.2 
Crankset FSA Vero3-pc Alloy, 170mm, Sealed Bearing, 46T Alloy 
Chain KMC Z410 Silver 
Pedal Wellgo Alloy w/ Cage & Toe Clips 
Rim Alex R500, 32H, Double Wall w/ CNC Sidewalls, w/ Stainless 14Ga. Spokes 
Front Hub Formula High Flange Alloy, 32H, Sealed Bearing, 
Rear Hub Formula High Flange Alloy, 32H, Sealed Bearing 16T FW/Fixed Flip Flop 
Tires Kenda K176, 700 X 28c 


price will be $299 or $319 depending on exchange rate
no sales tax except in Texas; free shipping in 48 contential states
and delivery is in April

very simple decals
brand DAWES
model - 2009 SST [not bike currently on site]

we ordered a lot
but they will sell out quick
I feel this bike will become the new standard for a super SS/Track deal with brakes


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## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> Several exact spec bikes are sold at different prices with different decals on them
> this is not uncommon
> 
> In two months we will be selling a track bike for $299 delivered that is EXACTLY like one sold for $539 all over [this bike was actually ordered based on info from one of Dave's post]
> ...


But aren't you selling a bike now that is 299?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> colors
> matt black
> bright blue
> dark green
> ...


Sounds decent. I like not having a 1" stem. I was going to use BH as well. 

Any pics coming soon? When could info to order possibly be on your site.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

richk said:


> But aren't you selling a bike now that is 299?


yes
but we sell lots of bikes with different specs at overlapping price points

we are adding lots of track / single speed bikes in the next year
steel ones
aluminum ones
with brakes
without brakes
cyclo-cross ones

from $299 to $399 we will stock at least 5 models
and then we are adding some higher priced one also - like with platinium ox tubing or 853
and maybe Ti


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Sounds decent. I like not having a 1" stem. I was going to use BH as well.
> 
> Any pics coming soon? When could info to order possibly be on your site.


actually pictures
on this this bike will not be up until the bike is in - sorry

but I can tell you the colors look great
and decals are very very low key


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## Alx (Mar 22, 2007)

anyone have the weight on a stock windsor hour btw?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Sorry Dick
> But youre wrong about this
> 
> Same exact bike is sold all over the country for $550 in stores
> ...


Why is he wrong for expressing his opinion? His opinion as a "pro"(your words), is that the bike is worth $300. 

That also happens to be my opinion as a lowly non-industry insider(again, your words Mike). 

I paid for a Windsor Hour with my own money and I gave a review based upon _*owning*_ the bike. 

I honestly can't figure out why you have such a problem with people saying the bike is worth what you paid for it..We aren't knocking the bike, we are staying you get what you pay for....


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Why is he wrong for expressing his opinion? His opinion as a "pro"(your words), is that the bike is worth $300.
> 
> That also happens to be my opinion as a lowly non-industry insider(again, your words Mike).
> 
> ...


Dave
I have know Dick for 30 years; and he is a very good guy
in this case he has made an error - and track is not a sector he has ever specialized in that I know of - so it's understandable

the reason he and you are wrong in this area in my opinion is simple: this bike with the exact same specs from the exact same factory has been sold all over the USA by dealers for $500 to $600 {these dealers have all presented that build as a good deal at $500 or more}

the 'retail' value is based in my mind on spec and performance; 
however, if one beleives a decal can add 70% to 80% in value - then that is a different story

example: we sell a Surly Steamroller for $629.95
and I know the spec and builder
if I have the same exact bike built to the same exact spec
is the resulting bike worth $629? or $319? or $429? or what?
So if the brand is Mercier vs Surly will it last longer? ride better? 
maybe I just dont get it; to me a bike is about performance not decal


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Alx said:


> anyone have the weight on a stock windsor hour btw?



weight quoted by factory is 18.8 lbs
customers tell us that their hours weigh 18 to 20 - depending on size

so the weight is exactly in the range of all full chr-moly SS/Track bikes
such as Fuji, Motobecane, Bianchi, Surly, Schwinn, KHS, Mercier


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Dave
> I have know Dick for 30 years; and he is a very good guy
> in this case he has made an error - and track is not a sector he has ever specialized in that I know of - so it's understandable
> 
> ...



I could care less what LBS's sell other versions for. The bike is worth $300....I have no ax to grind. I have no ulterior motive. I paid for the bike and I reviewed it.. it's a simple as that...


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> I could care less what LBS's sell other versions for. The bike is worth $300....I have no axe to grind. I have no ulterior motive. I paid for the bike and I reviewed it.. it's a simple as that...


And I think you got good service - correct? Delivered quickly? As advertised?

Now the real question
if the same exact bike as a Surly Streamroller is available with a different decal
what is it worth? $629? $529? $429? $329?
as that spec is sold all over at $629 - isnt it a deal if you can get it for $429 even if decals say something else? or with no decals?

this is the underlying question:
does the spec and quality create the value?
or is all about the decal?

I am in favor of the best spec per dollar as the way to support cycling; but I guess some think branding is better for riders


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## RoyIII (Feb 24, 2007)

I'd clean up the Ross, get some OP track wheels - eno rear, formula high flange front - modify the existing crank - or go with sugino or record pista - canecreek levers and ride off into the sunset. You'll also pass muster over at bsnyc.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

*First off, Mike.*



bikesdirect said:


> Dave
> I have know Dick for 30 years; and he is a very good guy
> in this case he has made an error - and track is not a sector he has ever specialized in that I know of - so it's understandable
> 
> ...


My name is not "Dick."

Secondly, I don't know you personally. You are mistaking me for somebody else.

Thirdly, the spec you reference on the "Dawes" is a quantum leap over both the Windsor Hour and the Motobecane Messenger. If you can pull that off for $300, more power to you.

And finally, any bike out there is worth exactly what someone pays for it, not more. I could make a case that some people pay more than some bikes are really worth, but that's a topic for another thread.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Richard said:


> My name is not "Dick."
> 
> Secondly, I don't know you personally. You are mistaking me for somebody else.
> 
> ...


Really!
I assumed you were you know who over at Phat
sorry

The Dawes spec is actually a lower cost build than the Messenger
Messenger and Kilo TT are two of the most expensive oem builds in SS/Track sold in the USA today - but not everyone gets that


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> Sorry Dick
> But youre wrong about this
> 
> Same exact bike is sold all over the country for $550 in stores
> PM or e-mail me for details


If you are talking the "exact bike" being the Hour or the Messenger, I beg to differ.

The "fixies" we sell (Cayne Uno, Trek Solo, Masi Speciale Fixed - $550, $550, and $650 respectively) have frames, forks, wheels and a component spec much closer to the Surley Steamroller you sell for over $600. The Hour's and the Messenger's I've personally seen have been far closer to "entry-level," i.e., 1" threaded with headsets I've seen on beach cruisers, low-flange non-sealed hubs, quill stems of dubious heritage, etc. That being said, they are fine $300 bikes, particularly if you've "upped" the spec as reflected on your website, probably worth it for the frame and fork alone (which if my observations of our burgeoning "hipster-fixie" clientele are doing with them - chopped risers with Oury's, deep V's, rattle can paint, etc. - are correct, then it's a sentiment shared.)

Now if you can actually bring in the Dawes at the $350 price point, with a spec very similar to the Cayne Uno, then again I say more power to you.

Me, I think the Masi Speciale Fixed in the dark green is the nicest off-the-shelf ss/fixie I've yet seen - even at $650.


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## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

warmseth said:


> hey rich, what city are you in? i have a crappy fixie that you could keep for a day or two and ride around to see if you like it. i'm in la


Thanks wrong coast pa here.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Richard said:


> If you are talking the "exact bike" being the Hour or the Messenger, I beg to differ.
> 
> The "fixies" we sell (Cayne Uno, Trek Solo, Masi Speciale Fixed - $550, $550, and $650 respectively) have frames, forks, wheels and a component spec much closer to the Surley Steamroller you sell for over $600. The Hour's and the Messenger's I've personally seen have been far closer to "entry-level," i.e., 1" threaded with headsets I've seen on beach cruisers, low-flange non-sealed hubs, quill stems of dubious heritage, etc. That being said, they are fine $300 bikes, particularly if you've "upped" the spec as reflected on your website, probably worth it for the frame and fork alone (which if my observations of our burgeoning "hipster-fixie" clientele are doing with them - chopped risers with Oury's, deep V's, rattle can paint, etc. - are correct, then it's a sentiment shared.)
> 
> ...


Now I see for sure
you are clearly not Dick

1" is a style - does not save more
in fact - we canb build today with 1-1/8" headset for less at oem cost than 1"
as 1-1/8" as become the standard
but many track types still want 1" with quill
there is a track forum on BF with a big discussion on that
and most posters wanted 1" quill

we can easily build and sell any of the spec you named for $350
including the Masi
math is simple - get Dick to show you the oem thru the channel path to msrp

we have been unsure how long SS/T would stay strong
so we have stayed with the 3 models we sell a lot of
but since it seems to be continuing to grow
we will add 3 or 5 more versions of complete bikes
several will have 1-1/8" - with aheadset
and some with better tubing than the 4130 used on about everything out there

so it is an interesting market segment that many cyclists like; and if the costs can be kept low; many more can enjoy this type bike as a second or thrid cycle


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> Now I see for sure
> you are clearly not Dick
> 
> 1" is a style - does not save more
> ...


You are right. I'm clearly not "Dick."

Sure, someone can offer a 1" threaded fork/headset/quill stem combo that costs a heck of a lot more than a generic 1 1/8" threadless. How about an NJS Hatta headset with a Tange Prestige flat crown fork and a Nitto NJS stem? 

That was not my point. My point was "entry-level" (dare I say "cheap?") 1" headsets and quill stems. Yes, a large segment of the "fixie" crowd wants 1" with quill - heck that's what I have on both of my fixed gear conversions. Try Campy Record, Cinelli, Nitto, Columbus and Reynolds.

And I wasn't born in the bike business yesterday. I know what the cost to the IBD is for a Cayne Uno or a Masi Speciale Fixed - so much for "channel path." Manufacturers aren't non-profit entities. And neither are IBD's.

Let me repeat myself. If you can bring in an ss/fixie with a frame, fork and component spec comparable to a Cayne Uno or a Masi Speciale Fixed for $200 less than any IBD can sell them for and expect to remain in business, then more power to you.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Richard said:


> Let me repeat myself. If you can bring in an ss/fixie with a frame, fork and component spec comparable to a Cayne Uno or a Masi Speciale Fixed for $200 less than any IBD can sell them for and expect to remain in business, then more power to you.



That is easy; very easy
I can can make money with those exact spec at $250 less than list
Please Ask David M. if he thinks I'll remain in business LOL
but I guess after 30 years - no one really thinks I'm about to go out of business

No seriously; the math is simple
$600 bike in a IBD has average of $348 combined dealer+distributor margin
I can easily sell a bike at $98 of margin and make money; do it all the time
[even throw in free shipping at that magin]
Some dealers may sell bikes that list at $600 for $500 and cut their margin from $240 to $140 - but most will not

that is why; most areas of the country; customers pay $500 to $600 for bikes just like a Windsor Hour [exactly like - including specs and factory]


Many customers do not think about this; or care
and most IBDs do not know about it much
Prices are different on bikes based on region.


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## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

*2 pages later*

Mike what say you send me a Windsor to ride I would be glad to try it out and give my opinion on it. After all you got all this additional Advertising..... 
]As of now I am waiting for a set of wheels to convert the Ross . They are suppose to be in on Monday after the version with a con I think it will still be pretty heavy to ride . I figure the chrome wheels and group with in about 10 #'s Not sure what the new wheels will weigh .


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

richk said:


> Mike what say you send me a Windsor to ride I would be glad to try it out and give my opinion on it. After all you got all this additional Advertising.....
> ]As of now I am waiting for a set of wheels to convert the Ross . They are suppose to be in on Monday after the version with a con I think it will still be pretty heavy to ride . I figure the chrome wheels and group with in about 10 #'s Not sure what the new wheels will weigh .





Well
I have already received thousands of opinions on that bike
{by the way, the Windsor HOUR is the biggest selling track bike in the USA}
the vast majority of opinions on it are simple: good as any fixed gear in an LBS for $500 or so

but thanks anyway


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Well
> I have already received thousands of opinions on that bike
> {by the way, the Windsor HOUR is the biggest selling track bike in the USA}
> the vast majority of opinions on it are simple: good as any fixed gear in an LBS for $500 or so
> ...


Enough free advertising...Keep the conversation toward fixed geared bicycles and not about selling your product....


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## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

*like I said*

:idea:


Dave Hickey said:


> Enough free advertising...Keep the conversation toward fixed geared bicycles and not about selling your product....


:thumbsup:


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> That is easy; very easy
> I can can make money with those exact spec at $250 less than list
> Please Ask David M. if he thinks I'll remain in business LOL
> but I guess after 30 years - no one really thinks I'm about to go out of business.


I was talking about IBD's remaining in business. I know you will.

Bricks and mortar cost money, good mechanics cost money, bike assemblers cost money, knowledgable sales people cost money.

Your name says it all. "Bikesdirect." Of course you can "undercut" the price structure at an IBD for virtually the same product. You have "cut out the middleman", i.e., the IBD.

It is the consumer's choice and if the total "product" offered by an IBD isn't that important to them, or they don't perceive value there, then fine. It is their choice.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

How to ruin a great forum:



bikesdirect said:


> Well
> I have already received thousands of opinions on that bike
> {by the way, the Windsor HOUR is the biggest selling track bike in the USA}
> the vast majority of opinions on it are simple: good as any fixed gear in an LBS for $500 or so
> ...


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## richk (Dec 30, 2006)

richk said:


> I was thinking of buying one from BD . What is with the warning tighten the rear wheel b4 and after riding? Is it a problem design or is this a standard for fixed rides?
> 2nd question would I be better off converting my old bike a Ross see pic
> http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/showphoto.php?photo=12103&cat=500&ppuser=270894
> perhaps buying a fixed set of wheels etc etc?


Now that all the advertisment is done with I think I will go with converting the Ross and buy from a local shop if I decide to stay (Single) ,instead of keeping corporate BD in business . I think it would be better to support the local shop and keep them in business instead. I mean the LBS has group rides buys coffee,bagels, supports the local homeless shelter . They also have a big bike to brunch all free..


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

richk said:


> Now that all the advertisment is done with I think I will go with converting the Ross and buy from a local shop if I decide to stay (Single) ,instead of keeping corporate BD in business . I think it would be better to support the local shop and keep them in business instead. I mean the LBS has group rides buys coffee,bagels, supports the local homeless shelter . They also have a big bike to brunch all free..




and presumably a phone number!


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