# Wheel balancing weights?



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Had a friend from car culture who wrapped small pieces of solder around the nipple opposite the valve on his wheels. He could spin them in his hands and they'd roll for a long time without vibrating up and down. He claimed they were more comfortable when riding and his lugged steel Tommassini handled better.

Anybody tried 'em? 

Silca SpeedBalance magnet offsets valve stem weight | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

I call that, "woo".


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Marc said:


> I call that, "woo".


Hey look man, they might make a noticeable different on these lightweight wheels. My friend noticed the difference on his heavy 36 spoke aluminum rims.:yesnod:

The latest thing. You don't want to get dropped do you? :nono: Article says wgts. eliminate wheel shudder at high speeds. :idea:


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Hey look man, they might make a noticeable different on these lightweight wheels. My friend noticed the difference on his heavy 36 spoke aluminum rims.:yesnod:
> 
> The latest thing. You don't want to get dropped do you? :nono: Article says wgts. eliminate wheel shudder at high speeds. :idea:


Do they come in carbon fiber with ceramic bearings?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Marc said:


> Do they come in carbon fiber with ceramic bearings?


They probably will, eventually. I mean carbons rims are now standard. Who woulda thought? They'll inject metal filings in the stylistically compatible carbon fiber wgts. to heavy them up. Carbon rims probably flail all over the place at 35 mph +. :frown2:


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> They probably will, eventually. I mean carbons rims are now standard. Who woulda thought? They'll inject metal filings in the stylistically compatible carbon fiber wgts. to heavy them up. Carbon rims probably flail all over the place at 35 mph +. :frown2:


Sounds awful heavy, and being rim weight it also counts for more.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

From the review menu on the right side of the page...

Silca SpeedBalance magnet offsets valve stem weight | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Migen21 said:


> From the review menu on the right side of the page...
> 
> Silca SpeedBalance magnet offsets valve stem weight | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


Protip: You can use AdBlockPlus to make that useless crap go away


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Marc said:


> Sounds awful heavy, and being rim weight it also counts for more.


Yeah, the reviewer mentioned this wouldn't go over with the weight weenies. 

They only have to weigh as much as a valve stem, about a gram. My friend had to put a couple on, though. He also had to balance out the seam opposite the vale stem where the rim was welded together. :frown2:


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I've been using the Silca ones since they came out. I have nothing bad to say about them. They do what they're supposed to do, they balance the wheel. Does that help at all? I don't see how it can hurt me.

I will say that they won't work for anything under 45mm though. At that point even empty it's too heavy of a weight.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Are some wheels out of balance? Yes, some can be to the degree that they shake the bike up and down violently in a work stand. Is it noticeable when riding? 

Nope.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Marc said:


> Protip: You can use AdBlockPlus to make that useless crap go away


I use adblock plus. These aren't ads. They are links to reviews on this site.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cxwrench said:


> Are some wheels out of balance? Yes, some can be to the degree that they shake the bike up and down violently in a work stand. Is it noticeable when riding?
> 
> Nope.


It's only notable in a car because there is lots of suspension to go up & down. On a bike - nothing. It's a gimmick as old as bike wheels.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

MMsRepBike said:


> I've been using the Silca ones since they came out. I have nothing bad to say about them. They do what they're supposed to do, they balance the wheel. Does that help at all? I don't see how it can hurt me.
> 
> I will say that they won't work for anything under 45mm though. At that point even empty it's too heavy of a weight.


No problem. Jus add a few more until that wheel spins so smoothly!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Migen21 said:


> I use adblock plus. These aren't ads. They are links to reviews on this site.


Migen21, this is a serious technical subject! Don't be talking about ignoring what could very well be a fine tuning that will shine on the next mountain descent! :nono:


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Fred, did you read the thread?

Someone else was telling ME to use adblock to block these reviews. I don't even want to block them (I like to read them). I use adblock, but I don't use it to block the links to reviews on a website whose reason for existing is bicycle stuff reviews..

Conveniently, I did use adblock to block those annoying finger wagging emoticons Fred likes to post.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> It's only notable in a car because there is lots of suspension to go up & down. On a bike - nothing. It's a gimmick as old as bike wheels.


Well, alright. So much for creative entrepreneurial spirit in the market place. :frown2:

There will always be naysayers intent on rejecting innovation! They get suckered into yet another gear on the rear wheel, oval chainrings, wimpy SPD pedals, single chainring with 11 speed cassettes, the list goes on.

If the wheel violently hops in the stand, it'll violently hop on the road. Rider's wgt. will only dampen the effect. :yesnod: Better get hip. They said the same things about computerized fuel injection engines. :nono:


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Migen21 said:


> Fred, did you read the thread?
> 
> Someone else was telling ME to use adblock to block these reviews. I don't even want to block them (I like to read them). I use adblock, but I don't use it to block the links to reviews on a website whose reason for existing is bicycle stuff reviews..


Sorry, I should have directed my comments to Marc. 

I like to see how these bling go anywhere bikes compare to my go anywhere bikes from the 80s. Nice to know they're back in style. Wheel magnets are trying to make a comeback, too, right Mike?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Are some wheels out of balance? Yes, some can be to the degree that they shake the bike up and down violently in a work stand. Is it noticeable when riding?
> 
> Nope.


Well, ya gotta take the reflectors off, first, of course. I've felt the old round ones riding. They've streamlined them trying to reduce wobble, apparently.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Migen21 said:


> I use adblock plus. These aren't ads. They are links to reviews on this site.


They're forum-bloat/spam that most forum users never look at and would rather have gone...


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

Fredrico said:


> My friend noticed the difference on his heavy 36 spoke aluminum rims.


doubtful

but if he thinks he can feel a difference, then, they work.

they're highly effective on a car wheel, because there is so much wheel mass spinning at such a high speed. you can usually feel it in the steering first.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Well, alright. So much for creative entrepreneurial spirit in the market place. :frown2:
> 
> There will always be naysayers intent on rejecting innovation! They get suckered into yet another gear on the rear wheel, oval chainrings, wimpy SPD pedals, single chainring with 11 speed cassettes, the list goes on.
> *
> If the wheel violently hops in the stand, it'll violently hop on the road*. Rider's wgt. will only dampen the effect. :yesnod: Better get hip. They said the same things about computerized fuel injection engines. :nono:


Uhmmm no...it won't.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm sure I read somewhere recently of at least one rim manufacturer building a small counterweight into the rim itself opposite the valve hole, but cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Had a friend from car culture who wrapped small pieces of solder around the nipple opposite the valve on his wheels. D





Fredrico said:


> They only have to weigh as much as a valve stem, about a gram. My friend had to put a couple on, though. He also had to balance out the seam opposite the vale stem where the rim was welded together.


All right, are you trolling us, fredrico? The seam and the valve stem are 180 degrees apart. If their excess weight is the same, they already balance out. If they're different, you only have to add weight to the lighter one. There is NO logical way in which it would make sense to put weight in both locations.

Note that the original article (which is still hooey) only suggested these are useful for deep carbon rims, which have a longer (therefore heavier) valve stem, and don't have the extra seam weight of an aluminum rim. 

Either you or your friend are full of it.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Are some wheels out of balance? Yes, some can be to the degree that they shake the bike up and down violently in a work stand. Is it noticeable when riding?
> 
> Nope.


This.



Mike T. said:


> It's only notable in a car because there is lots of suspension to go up & down. On a bike - nothing. It's a gimmick as old as bike wheels.


And this.

And unless you consistently ride over 40mph, you won't feel it anyway. This gimmick reminds me of bike tires designed to prevent hydroplaning.

The valve and rim joint are on opposite sides of the rim for a good reason. They balance each other out. I can't say I've ever noticed a wheel being out of balance once a tire is mounted.

However, if you really want to be anal about it, you can strategically place the magnet for a cycle computer.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> If the wheel violently hops in the stand, it'll violently hop on the road.


Basically wrong. In order for the wheel to "violently hop" on the road due to imbalance, the tire would have to be compressed and then rebound from the force generated by the oscillating mass. Car tires do this because they have only 30 psi in them and a lot more rotating mass. If you can posit a situation where a few grams (at most) of rotating weight will compress a bicycle tire at 80-90 psi, have at it. Prepare to be shot down.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> Basically wrong. In order for the wheel to "violently hop" on the road due to imbalance, the tire would have to be compressed and then rebound from the force generated by the oscillating mass. Car tires do this because they have only 30 psi in them and a lot more rotating mass. If you can posit a situation where a few grams (at most) of rotating weight will compress a bicycle tire at 80-90 psi, have at it. Prepare to be shot down.


Wait a minute. You mean you can't feel those reflectors on the spokes inducing a slight hop in the wheels around 17-22 mph? I've experienced it. It prompted me to remove the reflectors. :nono: Why not take it a step further and balance the wheel in a stand? Do you ride your bike like a gorilla? A great bicycle moves with subtlety and grace. Why leave the wheels out of balance?

The tire will compress upon any interruption, bumps in the pavement, movements of rider, out of round or untrue wheels, or bike shimmy. You are probably right that less than a gram of imbalance wouldn't constitute a jarring effect that would compress the tires. But everything affects balance on such a light, gossamer machine as a bike. Can't compare to cars. Cars have way too much inertial mass. :nono:


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

TmB123 said:


> I'm sure I read somewhere recently of at least one rim manufacturer building a small counterweight into the rim itself opposite the valve hole, but cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it.


See, cxwrench and Kerry Irons? Not everybody concedes to your expertise or experience.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Wait a minute. You mean you can't feel those reflectors on the spokes inducing a slight hop in the wheels around 17-22 mph?


One of my bikes had those reflectors and I left them there until they broke. No, I never felt a hop at those speeds or any other speeds, sorry.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

TmB123 said:


> I'm sure I read somewhere recently of at least one rim manufacturer building a small counterweight into the rim itself opposite the valve hole, but cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it.


It wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer has done something as a marketing tool would it?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> This.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Salient point about weld opposite valve hole balancing out the rim. However, on the more expensive rims that weld is gone in favor of a cleaner, lighter joining scheme, referred to as "tacking." Look at your carbon rims. They don't have any added weight at the join.

And sure, mount the computer magnet on a spoke on a different part of the rim other than the valve stem or weld on the opposite side. You guys don't do that?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Salient point about weld opposite valve hole balancing out the rim. However, on the more expensive rims that weld is gone in favor of a cleaner, lighter joining scheme, referred to as "tacking." Look at your carbon rims. They don't have any added weight at the join.


Hmmm, two "more expensive" rims in my possession - Ryde and Pacenti SL23 - both have sleeved joints. What is this "tacking"?


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> It's only notable in a car because there is lots of suspension to go up & down. On a bike - nothing. It's a gimmick as old as bike wheels.


Awhhhh you telling me I saved all them spoke beads for nothung


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> One of my bikes had those reflectors and I left them there until they broke. No, I never felt a hop at those speeds or any other speeds, sorry.


No need to apologize, Lombard, please! 

Oh, and total weight loading up the wheels would have a large effect on whether rider would feel hops induced by wheel reflectors. Riding unloaded I'd feel a very subtle pulsing, not exactly hops. Loaded up with 80# of touring gear, however, the bike rode like that '66 Cadillac Coupe de Ville I once inherited from a deceased relative. All that mass on the two wheels absorbed shocks completely.

The lighter the wheel, the more a couple of grams throwing off balance could affect the handling of the wheel, quite noticeable on high speed descents, as you suggest above. Right?

To be fair, I've never ridden on the current style wheel reflectors that are spread out around the rim. They may have solved the problem.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

n2deep said:


> Awhhhh you telling me I saved all them spoke beads for nothung


Yes, but trade them in for Spokey Dokeys -

https://www.google.ca/search?q=spok...X&ved=0ahUKEwiGmemkmvLOAhWBmx4KHTdFDkUQsAQIQA


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> Hmmm, two "more expensive" rims in my possession - Ryde and Pacenti SL23 - both have sleeved joints. What is this "tacking"?


Yeah, that's it "sleeve joints." I was too lazy to look up the right word. They're press fitted together, right? 

I've seen rims break at that joint in accidents, so they might not be as strong as welds, but WTH, satisfy the weight weenies.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

JCavilia said:


> All right, are you trolling us, fredrico? The seam and the valve stem are 180 degrees apart. If their excess weight is the same, they already balance out. If they're different, you only have to add weight to the lighter one. There is NO logical way in which it would make sense to put weight in both locations.
> 
> Note that the original article (which is still hooey) only suggested these are useful for deep carbon rims, which have a longer (therefore heavier) valve stem, and don't have the extra seam weight of an aluminum rim.
> 
> Either you or your friend are full of it.


My friend was playing around with a pair of welded aluminum rims. Right, I mentioned to him the weld opposite the valve. That didn't quite do it, so he fine tuned it with some solder wire. Actually don't remember where exactly he put it. Must have been on whichever side was lighter. He enjoyed working on cars, dealing with technical issues, and was very methodical.

So now we have one person to agree that uber light weight carbon rims may benefit from a balancing weight opposite the valve, huh? Gotcha! :thumbsup:


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Yeah, that's it "sleeve joints." I was too lazy to look up the right word. They're press fitted together, right?
> 
> I've seen rims break at that joint in accidents, so they might not be as strong as welds, but WTH, satisfy the weight weenies.


Two of the lightest rims I've ever owned - both sub-400g - were sleeved joined (Ryde Pulse Sprint) and welded (BWW Blackset Race) so the joining method didn't seem to factor into their weight.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> Two of the lightest rims I've ever owned - both sub-400g - were sleeved joined (Ryde Pulse Sprint) and welded (BWW Blackset Race) so the joining method didn't seem to factor into their weight.


Yes, thanks for pointing that out. Quality welds are lighter than poor quality welds. I've seen many examples of both. 

So put a gram of weight in there to compensate for the quality weld! Rim's too light for that heavy presta valve.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> My friend was playing around with a pair of welded aluminum rims. Right, I mentioned to him the weld opposite the valve. That didn't quite do it, so he fine tuned it with some solder wire. Actually don't remember where exactly he put it. Must have been on whichever side was lighter. He enjoyed working on cars, dealing with technical issues, and was very methodical.
> 
> So now we have one person to agree that uber light weight carbon rims may benefit from a balancing weight opposite the valve, huh? Gotcha! :thumbsup:


'Benefit' from balancing? Or just end up being balanced. There is no way you're going to feel an out of balance wheel while riding. The very small amount of weight difference , and we're talking grams, maybe in an extreme case an ounce, is not enough to make it noticeable to the rider while at speed. 
For this to happen the weight would have to be enough to surge the bike and rider forward during half of the rotation, then slow the bike and rider down during the opposite half of the wheels rotation. Or during the vertical movement of the weight to cause a 'bouncing' feel. Not possible. On a car w/ a tire weighing 15lbs and rotating _at least_ 3 or 4 times faster than a bicycle wheel and having suspension, yes...we all know you can feel that.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> 'Benefit' from balancing? Or just end up being balanced. There is no way you're going to feel an out of balance wheel while riding. The very small amount of weight difference , and we're talking grams, maybe in an extreme case an ounce, is not enough to make it noticeable to the rider while at speed.
> For this to happen the weight would have to be enough to surge the bike and rider forward during half of the rotation, then slow the bike and rider down during the opposite half of the wheels rotation. Or during the vertical movement of the weight to cause a 'bouncing' feel. Not possible. On a car w/ a tire weighing 15lbs and rotating _at least_ 3 or 4 times faster than a bicycle wheel and having suspension, yes...we all know you can feel that.


You guys are technically correct of course. But I'd still like to see if friend's perceived improvement in handling made a difference. He claimed to notice it on high speed descents. I'm sure not going to sucker into buying magnetic wheel weights for my aluminum rims with the big welds. 

I did read as other poster said, at least one builder, may have been Cinelli, did weight the side opposite the valve stem, obviously because they thought it made a difference. Whether rider feels it is another question. I can't try it on my wheels. They're heavy and already pretty well balanced in the stand.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> So now we have one person to agree that uber light weight carbon rims may benefit from a balancing weight opposite the valve, huh? Gotcha! :thumbsup:


I hope that wasn't intended to refer to me. Do I need to define "hooey" for you?


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> It wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer has done something as a marketing tool would it?


quite possibly, I wasn't saying I agreed with it, just that I'd read about it recently.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

JCavilia said:


> I hope that wasn't intended to refer to me. Do I need to define "hooey" for you?


You said, "Note that the original article (which is still hooey) only suggested these are useful for deep carbon rims, which have a longer (therefore heavier) valve stem, and don't have the extra seam weight of an aluminum rim." 

Of course if you disagree that author has a point, ya gotta call it "hooey." That's standard Tweet culture, from what I'm getting.


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## bobf (Apr 3, 2015)

Around 1977 my first 10-speed (Raleigh Super Course) got stolen, and until I got another decent bike I road a Schwinn Super Sport. At that time the SSS came with steel wheels and wheel relfectors. The reflectors were pretty heavy compared to today's all-plastic ones.

I took the reflectors off after about two rides, because I could feel the imbalance of the wheels. It was a front-back surge-and-lag feeling rather than a hop. I could feel it above maybe 18mph. Not surprising, it was strongest when the reflectors on both wheels happened to line up. I never noticed any wheel hop at all.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> Migen21, this is a serious technical subject! Don't be talking about ignoring what could very well be a fine tuning that will shine on the next mountain descent!


Funny Fred. We all know that you will ignore any facts that disagree with your beliefs but my wheels aren't "balanced" and they are smooth as glass at 55 mph (and any speed below that). But you insist that I will feel it if they are balanced. 

Call me a doubter Fred but this "technology" has been around at least since the '60s (first time I saw it but it probably goes back to the 1800s). Funny how it has never caught on. Do you suppose there's ANY chance that is because (in the words of another poster) it's hooey?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

bobf said:


> Around 1977 my first 10-speed (Raleigh Super Course) got stolen, and until I got another decent bike I road a Schwinn Super Sport. At that time the SSS came with steel wheels and wheel relfectors. The reflectors were pretty heavy compared to today's all-plastic ones.
> 
> I took the reflectors off after about two rides, because I could feel the imbalance of the wheels. It was a front-back surge-and-lag feeling rather than a hop. I could feel it above maybe 18mph. Not surprising, it was strongest when the reflectors on both wheels happened to line up. I never noticed any wheel hop at all.


Oh crap. I've been using the wrong term. It isn't hop, its a front and back surge, like you say. :thumbsup: The wheels are always rolling along in good contact with the tarmac. I called it "pulsing" above.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> Funny Fred. We all know that you will ignore any facts that disagree with your beliefs but my wheels aren't "balanced" and they are smooth as glass at 55 mph (and any speed below that). But you insist that I will feel it if they are balanced.
> 
> Call me a doubter Fred but this "technology" has been around at least since the '60s (first time I saw it but it probably goes back to the 1800s). Funny how it has never caught on. Do you suppose there's ANY chance that is because (in the words of another poster) it's hooey?


Alright, alright! My wheels were silky smooth at 50 mph, too, despite a bulge in one of the tubular tires and some uneven sidewalls. I was amazed how centrifugal force took over, dampening all the little vibrations like a well tuned shock absorber. I am convinced that had the wheel been balanced, I would have attained another 5 mph, as other riders typically do. So maybe its like cars; wheel shimmies and vibrations happen within limited speed ranges, below and above which the vibration is either too low a frequency to start vibrating or too high a frequency to sustain the vibration.

You win. Glad we figured that out! 

What do y'all think about helmets with built in LEDs and turn signals? Never mind.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> Alright, alright! My wheels were silky smooth at 50 mph, too, despite a bulge in one of the tubular tires and some uneven sidewalls. I was amazed how centrifugal force took over, dampening all the little vibrations like a well tuned shock absorber. I am convinced that had the wheel been balanced, I would have attained another 5 mph, as other riders typically do. So maybe its like cars; wheel shimmies and vibrations happen within limited speed ranges, below and above which the vibration is either too low a frequency to start vibrating or too high a frequency to sustain the vibration.


First rule of holes Fred is to stop digging. Uneven rim sidewalls would have no affect on ride smoothness - they would only show up when braking. As far as speed smoothing out a bulging tubular, I call BS. I've ridden on lots of bulging tubulars over the years (hoping to get a few more miles out of the tire) and there is no way they smooth out as you get faster.

You can be convinced all you want that a balanced wheel would give you 5 mph more. That doesn't make it true, and for sure it is not. Apparently you live in some sort of parallel universe where the rules of physics we have come to rely on do not apply.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

All ye who enter into conversation here are definitely in an 'altered' universe!


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

About the most I worry about wheel balancing is to make sure the speed magnet on the rear wheel is opposite of the valve. Thats it for me....


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

TJay74 said:


> About the most I worry about wheel balancing is to make sure the speed magnet on the rear wheel is opposite of the valve. Thats it for me....


But do you really know that doing that results in actually balancing the wheel? It definitely doesn't on all wheels. I totally agree w/ the point of your post, but sometimes wheels aren't out of balance the way you'd think they would be.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> But do you really know that doing that results in actually balancing the wheel? It definitely doesn't on all wheels. I totally agree w/ the point of your post, but sometimes wheels aren't out of balance the way you'd think they would be.


Well, like my buddy demonstrated, you can quickly determine whether the wheel is balanced by spinning it holding the axle in your hands. If it's out of balance you'll feel it right away.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Well, like my buddy demonstrated, you can quickly determine whether the wheel is balanced by spinning it holding the axle in your hands. If it's out of balance you'll feel it right away.


Ok Capt Obvious


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## Winona Pinarello (Apr 5, 2014)

I feel wheels are no compromise items. They should reflect a pretty high percentage of the total cost of the bike. I have HED Ardennes wheels and have never had an out of balance issue.


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## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)

I did not put any weight opposite of the valve stem. That is not a good way balance the wheel. I put these strips 120 degrees to the left and right of the valve stem. Spin the wheel and start adding the tape. When you can spin the wheel 3 times and it stops at a different spot all 3 times your good to go. I did this on my Reynolds R32's. The difference between my bike and my friends bike on freshly paved roads was amazing.
Storm SuspenStrips - LL Cote Sports Center


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

threebikes said:


> I did not put any weight opposite of the valve stem. That is not a good way balance the wheel. I put these strips 120 degrees to the left and right of the valve stem. Spin the wheel and start adding the tape. When you can spin the wheel 3 times and it stops at a different spot all 3 times your good to go. I did this on my Reynolds R32's. The difference between my bike and my friends bike on freshly paved roads was amazing.


Are you trying to tell us that you could feel the oscillation due to an unbalanced wheel? Because if that is your argument, fundamental physics is raining on your parade.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Winona Pinarello said:


> I feel wheels are no compromise items. They should reflect a pretty high percentage of the total cost of the bike. I have HED Ardennes wheels and have *never had an out of balance issue*.


No one has ever had an out of balance issue with a bicycle wheel. Well, not when riding it anyway.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> Are you trying to tell us that you could feel the oscillation due to an unbalanced wheel? Because if that is your argument, fundamental physics is raining on your parade.


:idea: But we now have two eye witness accounts that weights, in this case as light as those for fishing fly rods, evens out the inertial forces and improves the ride! 

"Wheel balancing" may not be the right word. These forces are too subtle to be measurable riding, but they still make the ride smoother, like the increased modulus of elasticity of a steel frame or certain parts of a carbon or aluminum frame. All this weight bearing materials stuff makes a difference especially on a bike. Think of it as third harmonic distortion. Removing it adds depth to the experience.  

Spreading out the weights from two opposing forces of the rim seam and valve stem would smooth out this harmonic distortion. :thumbsup:


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> :idea: But we now have two eye witness accounts


We have two subjective accounts from non-blinded uncontrolled experiments in which riders say they could perceive a subtle effect that they expected to perceive. This last guy says his bike rode smoother than his friend's bike. Were the bikes identical but for the tiny weights? 



> These forces are too subtle to be measurable riding, but they still make the ride smoother,


Contradictory statements in the same sentence.

We have nothing but wishful thinking. We should call it "placebo balancing."


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

JCavilia said:


> We have two subjective accounts from non-blinded uncontrolled experiments in which riders say they could perceive a subtle effect that they expected to perceive. This last guy says his bike rode smoother than his friend's bike. Were the bikes identical but for the tiny weights?
> 
> 
> Contradictory statements in the same sentence.
> ...


Well ok, can you feel the modulus of elasticity of a nice steel frame from the harsher stiffness of a carbon or aluminum frame?

It's like listening to music. The experience is more pleasurable when the third harmonics are faithfully reproduced!


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

JCavilia said:


> We have two subjective accounts from *non-blinded *uncontrolled experiments in which riders say they could perceive a subtle effect that they expected to perceive.


Ahhh, blindfold riding test! Wouldn't that be interesting!


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

JCavilia said:


> We have nothing but wishful thinking. We should call it "placebo balancing."


Again, I have the new Silca weights and they're installed correctly on a set of my wheels. When spinning the wheel and letting it rest on it's own, it picks a different spot each time, it's fair to say they worked in balancing out the wheels. Before they would always rest valve down.

Now... how do they feel? They don't. How do they work? They don't outside of what I said above. Am I faster? No. Is descending more stable? Not that I can feel. Are there any real tangible benefits? Not that I can make out.

I'm the perfect test subject I would think. High speed descending right? Can't feel a damn thing. They succeeded in making my bike heavier, I can assure you of that. They succeeded in "balancing" out my wheels, that's for sure. That's all though.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> Well ok, can you feel the modulus of elasticity of a nice steel frame from the harsher stiffness of a carbon or aluminum frame?
> 
> It's like listening to music. The experience is more pleasurable when the third harmonics are faithfully reproduced!


We all know that you really want to believe this balancing nonsense. But it is not true.

And your frame reference simple goes to point out that you don't understand the interactions of materials and design. CF or Al frames are only "harsher/stiffer" if they are designed to be. It's NOT about the modulus of elasticity of the metal.

Superstitious belief is not how engineering progresses.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Well ok, can you feel the modulus of elasticity of a nice steel frame from the *harsher stiffness of a carbon or aluminum frame?*
> 
> It's like listening to music. The experience is more pleasurable when the third harmonics are faithfully reproduced!


I guess you've never ridden an old Vitus or a Calfee carbon frame. As Kerry posts, it's not about the material but how it's designed/used.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Well ok, can you feel the modulus of elasticity of a nice steel frame from the harsher stiffness of a carbon or aluminum frame?
> 
> It's like listening to music. The experience is more pleasurable when the third harmonics are faithfully reproduced!


This had better be a troll...because it is getting damn funny.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> We all know that you really want to believe this balancing nonsense. But it is not true.
> 
> And your frame reference simple goes to point out that you don't understand the interactions of materials and design. CF or Al frames are only "harsher/stiffer" if they are designed to be. It's *NOT about the modulus of elasticity of the metal.*
> 
> Superstitious belief is not how engineering progresses.


Of course it is. It all adds up. Builders have tried to make aluminum and carbon "feel" as comfortable as steel. 20 years later, they're still trying. They failed. So now we've got "elastomer shocks." Gosh, I wonder how those work?

Bikes are manual instruments intimately connected to the rider. Everything: construction materials, shapes of tubing, geometry, handlebars, drive train components and wheel bearings, determines the quality of the ride. We may agree rim weights might be taking things a bit too far, but it all adds up to a certain ride characteristic, whether by design or luck. Great bikes do everything well. Average bikes do some thing well and others not so well. So I'm not going to write off rim weights. Two posters have said they can feel the difference. I responded that "feel" is so subtle, it's hard to put in words. 

We had this problem discussing aerobic vs. anaerobic muscular performance, as it determines power and endurance, the most basic skill we all go after as enthusiastic riders. Everything relates and contributes to the workload in constantly changing parameters. How it all adds up is the challenge. So many of you guys just throw up your hands and say, "Let's not confuse the issues! Just ride!"


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Marc said:


> This had better be a troll...because it is getting damn funny.


Hey, I'm glad somebody got it!


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## jjaguar (Oct 11, 2011)

Most likely the reason the rim seam is opposite of the valve stem is so that they are drilling a hole through the rim as far away as possible from a joint, for strength.

FWIW, I balance motorcycle wheels on a static balancer, which is basically a rod on bearings with a couple of centering cones. You give the wheel a light spin and an out-of-balance wheel will always stop with the heavy side down. When the wheel is in balance, it will stop in a different, random position each time. I suppose you could use a similar technique to check the balance of a bicycle wheel, but it's never occurred to me to even try. If it made a real difference, you would see the pro peloton use wheel weights on the bikes they use for mountain descents, at least. Do they? I don't think they do, but I really don't know.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> I guess you've never ridden an old Vitus or a Calfee carbon frame. As Kerry posts, it's not about the material but how it's designed/used.


Vitus were flippy back in the 80s, but they were aluminum frames, with oversized lugs and 1" top tubes, 1 1/8th down tubes, that fit the same jigs as the steel frames. I've heard the Vitus lugged carbon bikes LeMond rode were maybe a little lighter than steel but performed as well. By today's carbon standards, they were probably stiffer, but the skinny 1" tubing probably absorbed shocks satisfactorily, despite the stiffer tubing.

It took Cannondale 10 years before they got the nerve to skinny down their fat tubing for fear the stuff might tear apart from torsional flex. Manufacturers also put alloys in aluminum tubing to give it a greater "modulus of elasticity," mainly as a safeguard against breaking rather than shock absorption and rider comfort. That would be handled by the tires and forks. Tubbies give such a nice ride! And they stuck with steel forks 10 more years after aluminum and carbon frames came on.

Calfee and Colnago have stuck to skinny tubing and lugs to absorb shocks like steel. Chinese carbon frames all have really skinny seat stays to absorb shocks. Don't have to go pencil thin with steel and it's thus stronger and more durable.

So I must disagree that a good builder can make any material, steel, aluminum, or carbon, ride the way he designs it. The first parameters are in the tubing choice, the second, in the geometry. These determine the personality of the bike. The wheels and drive train dress it up, but don't change this personality. 

Ask any builder what he thinks of steel, aluminum, carbon? It's very difficult to engineer aluminum or carbon to equal the combination of response and comfort that comes naturally in 1" steel. Sure, builder can screw up with steel, but designers of carbon and aluminum have to jump through hoops and still can't get it quite right compared to steel.

The subtleties of the machine are a nice part of riding. Don't knock it! Wheel balancing weights? Sure, if it floats your boat!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

jjaguar said:


> Most likely the reason the rim seam is opposite of the valve stem is so that they are drilling a hole through the rim as far away as possible from a joint, for strength.
> 
> FWIW, I balance motorcycle wheels on a static balancer, which is basically a rod on bearings with a couple of centering cones. You give the wheel a light spin and an out-of-balance wheel will always stop with the heavy side down. When the wheel is in balance, it will stop in a different, random position each time. I suppose you could use a similar technique to check the balance of a bicycle wheel, but it's never occurred to me to even try. If it made a real difference, *you would see the pro peloton use wheel weights on the bikes* they use for mountain descents, at least. Do they? I don't think they do, but I really don't know.


^This This This^


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

My Shimano wheels are balanced. Shimano put a weight opposite the valve stem integrated with the rim. They don't even advertise this as far as I know, but I tested it and the wheel is balanced. Hmmm...

What about balancing low pressure gravel, touring, or mountain bike wheels? Would you feel difference at high speed? Don't know, but I suspect you could, depending on the degree of imbalance. 50 psi for the gravel/touring bike, 25 psi for the mountain bike.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Do you know what length valve stem they allow to offset?
the other thing, seeing how they already drill through the rim (and remove material in doing so) to accomodate the valve, there is already some missing weight that side of the wheel.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

jjaguar said:


> Most likely the reason the rim seam is opposite of the valve stem is so that they are drilling a hole through the rim as far away as possible from a joint, for strength.
> 
> FWIW, I balance motorcycle wheels on a static balancer, which is basically a rod on bearings with a couple of centering cones. You give the wheel a light spin and an out-of-balance wheel will always stop with the heavy side down. When the wheel is in balance, it will stop in a different, random position each time. I suppose you could use a similar technique to check the balance of a bicycle wheel, but it's never occurred to me to even try. If it made a real difference, you would see the pro peloton use wheel weights on the bikes they use for mountain descents, at least. Do they? I don't think they do, but I really don't know.


The pros ride what their sponsors give them. The captains can dicker about stuff like geometry, gears, handlebars and saddles, but they probably haven't demanded balanced wheels. Some of their wheels are balanced to being with. They could probably care less about wheel weights.

However! Check the picture below, skeptics! :yesnod: Shimano engineers think this little weight, smaller than a dime, finesses the wheel in perfect balance. Other rim makers probably also do that, if Shimano does.

So there ya go. You guys better get hip.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

They're not 'balanced' just because there is a bit of weight somewhere. There just happens to be a weight opposite from a hole. Whether they're actually 'balanced' is something else entirely. 
If the weight of the weight(!) is equal to the weight of whatever valve you happen to use minus the weight of the material that used to be the valve hole, then you're balanced.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cxwrench said:


> They're not 'balanced' just because there is a bit of weight somewhere. There just happens to be a weight opposite from a hole. Whether they're actually 'balanced' is something else entirely.
> If the weight of the weight(!) is equal to the weight of whatever valve you happen to use minus the weight of the material that used to be the valve hole, then you're balanced.


You and I know bike wheel balancing is bollocks. For there to be a felt vibration, the force of the oscillation would have to overcome the tire pressure and compress the tire - or lift the bike and rider. A car's suspension is more easily overcome by the oscillation because the amount of unbalance will probably be far greater than a bike tire and the speed greater - plus with a car we're talking (approx) 30psi pressure and <60mph> oscillation speed. Car tire imbalance is rarely felt at slower speeds

The car's tire has much greater relative "width" to a bike tire and if the heavy spot was away from the center line of the car tire, it would oscillate back & forth thus giving the characteristic shimmy that indicates a tire out of balance. That's why car tire balancing machines (I balanced thousands of tires when I was an auto mechanic) tells us where on the rim the weigh goes and whether it's on the outside or inside of the rim - or both sides equally.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> You and I know bike wheel balancing is bollocks. For there to be a felt vibration, the force of the oscillation would have to overcome the tire pressure and compress the tire - or lift the bike and rider. A car's suspension is more easily overcome by the oscillation because the amount of unbalance will probably be far greater than a bike tire and the speed greater - plus with a car we're talking (approx) 30psi pressure and <60mph> oscillation speed. Car tire imbalance is rarely felt at slower speeds
> 
> The car's tire has much greater relative "width" to a bike tire and if the heavy spot was away from the center line of the car tire, it would oscillate back & forth thus giving the characteristic shimmy that indicates a tire out of balance. That's why car tire balancing machines (I balanced thousands of tires when I was an auto mechanic) tells us where on the rim the weigh goes and whether it's on the outside or inside of the rim - or both sides equally.


That's interesting a car tire shimmies because it's out of balance on one side only. If it's out of balance on both sides in the same place, it hops, right? 

Bike wheels are going to be out of balance only vertically. So they won't shimmy, but "hop," vibrate uncertainly on the road, subtly loading and unloading the tires, making the tire slightly less firmly planted on the tarmac. My friend told me he noticed the smoothness on very smooth pavement, less so on bumpy pavement. It's very subtle.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> That's interesting a car tire shimmies because it's out of balance on one side only. If it's out of balance on both sides in the same place, it hops, right?
> 
> Bike wheels are going to be out of balance only vertically. So they won't shimmy, but "hop," vibrate uncertainly on the road, subtly loading and unloading the tires, making the tire slightly less firmly planted on the tarmac. My friend told me he noticed the smoothness on very smooth pavement, less so on bumpy pavement. It's very subtle.


I have felt road wheels bounce slightly on a smooth road when the tire was slightly out of round.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

mfdemicco said:


> I have felt road wheels bounce slightly on a smooth road when the tire was slightly out of round.


So have I with a badly repaired tubular tire. 

Those old fashioned round wheel reflectors used to make the wheels pulse slightly and you'd notice it around 18 mph. Of course, those things were considerably heavier than a valve stem, and also whacked the air coming in from the front.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> I have felt road wheels bounce slightly on a smooth road when the tire was slightly out of round.




Out of round is not the same as out of balance.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> Hey, I'm glad somebody got it!


So our suspicions are confirmed! Fred is a troll.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

mfdemicco said:


> My Shimano wheels are balanced. Shimano put a weight opposite the valve stem integrated with the rim. They don't even advertise this as far as I know, but I tested it and the wheel is balanced. Hmmm...
> 
> What about balancing low pressure gravel, touring, or mountain bike wheels? Would you feel difference at high speed? Don't know, but I suspect you could, depending on the degree of imbalance. 50 psi for the gravel/touring bike, 25 psi for the mountain bike.


That's funny, because on every wheel I can remember, the heaviest point is at the seam, not at the valve (with tire installed). That suggests your little "thingie" is something else than a balancing weight. Either that or the Shimano is more interested in creating an image than in balancing wheels.

You will have to repeat your question on low pressures. It's not making sense. Are you
suggesting that wheel balance will change as pressure changes? Are you suggesting that a MTB tire will compress at 25 psi due to rim weight imbalance?


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> That's funny, because on every wheel I can remember, the heaviest point is at the seam, not at the valve (with tire installed). That suggests your little "thingie" is something else than a balancing weight. Either that or the Shimano is more interested in creating an image than in balancing wheels.
> 
> You will have to repeat your question on low pressures. It's not making sense. Are you
> suggesting that wheel balance will change as pressure changes? Are you suggesting that a MTB tire will compress at 25 psi due to rim weight imbalance?


On old rims that were pinned/sleeved, you are right, but most rims are not made that way anymore. 

If not a balance weight, what is it? I undid my quick release and let the front wheel hang from the fork lawyer lumps to minimize bearing drag. Wherever I rotated the wheel, it stayed in that position. It was balanced. 

Wheel balance does not change but the effect does. Due to low pressure, that's why car tires need to be balanced. At 100 psi, road tires are so stiff that you don't get a bounce from imbalance. F=k*x. The higher the spring rate, the more force it takes to get movement. 

Yes to the last question.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> On old rims that were pinned/sleeved, you are right, but most rims are not made that way anymore.



There are plenty of new rims that are still pinned/sleeved.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Lombard said:


> There are plenty of new rims that are still pinned/sleeved.


Examples? Aren't most aluminum rims these days welded and the braking surface machined?

http://roadbikeaction.com/home-page/homepage-slideshow/being-there-inside-mavics-rim-factory


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Examples? Aren't most aluminum rims these days welded and the braking surface machined?
> 
> Road Bike Action | Being There: Inside Mavic?s Rim Factory




Go to DT Swiss' website and see what their rim options are. You will find some of their newest offerings are sleeved. Sleeved rims are not obsolete:

https://www.dtswiss.com/


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## onlineflyer (Aug 8, 2005)

Guys and gals, please calm down. Furthermore, remember when you patch a tube to also place another patch at 180 degrees to insure the tube is balanced.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Sleeved rims are not obsolete:


I think they're making a comeback - if they ever went away. For instance both Pacenti and Ryde are sleeved. I have samples of both and the joints are perfect. Way back ('70s. '80s) there were some poor sleeved joints - that created an uneven surface and a tick-tick-tick, (or worse) when braking.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

onlineflyer said:


> Guys and gals, please calm down. Furthermore, remember when you patch a tube to also place another patch at 180 degrees to insure the tube is balanced.



Best post yet in this thread! Repped!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Out of round is not the same as out of balance.


No, but an out of round wheel will sure knock it out of balance! It still involves inertial forces that induce instability in the rotating mass, which would be felt as a less solid connection to the road. True, that placing a substantial load over the wheel will minimize the effect. The tires soften the bumps in the road, as well as any minor instability of the rotating wheels.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Has anyone seen a dead horse I can beat?


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> No, but an out of round wheel will sure knock it out of balance! It still involves inertial forces that induce instability in the rotating mass, which would be felt as a less solid connection to the road. True, that placing a substantial load over the wheel will minimize the effect. The tires soften the bumps in the road, as well as any minor instability of the rotating wheels.


For an out-of-round situation that occurs during a ride, place a weight on the "bulge" side of the wheel using the simple formula: + 1 gram weight for every 1 millimeter out of round. OK to estimate. I keep a roll of solid-core solder in my ride toolkit in case I need this "life hack" fix.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Has anyone seen a dead horse I can beat?


Spike is still alive.  

Surprising that this thread is still alive!

I keep coming back to this very wise quite by our own DCGriz. It is very relevant regarding this wheel balancing topic:



dcgriz said:


> With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> I keep coming back to this very wise quite by our own DCGriz. It is very relevant regarding this wheel balancing topic:


You and dc are right; no argument. Some wheels may benefit. Most wouldn't.  

Like so many other technical features of bicycles, all these little things do add up, however, and then make a difference, things like carbon tubing weaves, frame shapes, wheel spoke counts, on and on. 

Wheel weights? Glad we figured out that scam!  

Ok, how about oval chainrings, massive V section rims, one chain ring drive trains and 23C, er millimeter tires? Same difference, IMO, having seen these "technical innovations" come and go, and will surely return for a second chance to take our money! :nono:


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

onlineflyer said:


> Guys and gals, please calm down. Furthermore, remember when you patch a tube to also place another patch at 180 degrees to insure the tube is balanced.


I reuse my tubes so often, I've never encountered this issue. Just wait until the second flat! The next patch will even out the wheel balance just fine, unless by some stroke of bad luck, it's in the same place! Then of course, replace the tube.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> I think they're making a comeback - if they ever went away. For instance both Pacenti and Ryde are sleeved. I have samples of both and the joints are perfect. Way back ('70s. '80s) there were some poor sleeved joints - that created an uneven surface and a tick-tick-tick, (or worse) when braking.


Aha. So they discovered jettisoning the sleeves weakened the rim joint, so they went back to sleeves? I've seen newer rims break at the joint quite frequently. The older rims seldom did that.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Has anyone seen a dead horse I can beat?


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

velodog said:


> View attachment 316392


I love it when a plan comes together.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

mfdemicco said:


> On old rims that were pinned/sleeved, you are right, but most rims are not made that way anymore.
> 
> Yes to the last question.


My last several rims have been welded. The weld is heavier than the valve stem and that is where the wheels come to rest, with the weld down.

You are simply wrong that the weight of a rim weld could compress a low pressure tire as it revolves. It take that back: it could compress the tire. It's just the compression would be so miniscule as to be undetectable.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Has anyone seen a dead horse I can beat?


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Alrighty, which one of you trolled Lennard Zinn?

Technical FAQ: Balancing wheels, mismatched brakes, and more | VeloNews.com



VeloNews said:


> *Dear Lennard,*I recently purchased a deep-dish aero road bike wheel and noticed that its weight is slightly out of balance. Can you tell me how to weight balance a bicycle wheel?
> _— David_
> *
> Dear David,*
> ...


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## onlineflyer (Aug 8, 2005)

Migen21 said:


> Alrighty, which one of you trolled Lennard Zinn?
> 
> Technical FAQ: Balancing wheels, mismatched brakes, and more | VeloNews.com


:mad2::mad2::mad2: That's only because the tire had a tube that was patched and the knucklehead what made the repair didn't place another patch at the exact 180 degree location. Furthermore, when doing this repair, you have to be sure to place the second patch at the exact 180 degree location. A degree or two off and the wheel could bounce soooo much you would think you're on a bucking bronco.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Some time ago... they thought the world was... flat! I need to look that up.


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