# Beware Fake Pinarello Bikes



## merckxman

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/03/beware-of-fake-pinarello-bikes.html


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## DiegoMontoya

Man, are you late to the party.


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## rhauft

merckxman said:


> http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/03/beware-of-fake-pinarello-bikes.html


Thanks merckxman, these fakes are becoming a real epidemic. They are all over ebay. I sell my old frames online quite a bit. More and more, I get people questing the authenticity of my Pinarello. They are easy to spot as they do not have internal brake cabling on the toptube. If you see a fake Pinarello on eBay, report it immediately.


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## DiegoMontoya

rhauft said:


> Thanks merckxman, these fakes are becoming a real epidemic. They are all over ebay. I sell my old frames online quite a bit. More and more, I get people questing the authenticity of my Pinarello. They are easy to spot as they do not have internal brake cabling on the toptube. If you see a fake Pinarello on eBay, report it immediately.


The new ones do have the internal brake cabling. You can still spot them by looking at the bottom bracket. They don't have the metal piece there.

Still, lots of fraudsters out there. Most of the Chinese shops are pretty straightforward about the fact that they sell fakes. Other eBayers are not so upfront.


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## vladvm

it's hard to tell the difference..

1. internal cable routing
2. italian threading
3. same geometry
4. same weight
5. same glitter paints
6. great ride quality

except the price

I don't know if the material is inferior because not a lot of failure reported so far, plus the sellers are willing to replace immediately if there are defects. Buyers take the risk and get the benefits at a cheap price.

Here's an example http://cyclingyong.com/goods-480-De...+Bike+FrameFork+50CM+52CM+54CM+56CM+58CM.html


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## DiegoMontoya

vladvm said:


> it's hard to tell the difference..
> 
> 1. internal cable routing
> 2. italian threading
> 3. same geometry
> 4. same weight
> 5. same glitter paints
> 6. great ride quality
> 
> except the price
> 
> I don't know if the material is inferior because not a lot of failure reported so far, plus the sellers are willing to replace immediately if there are defects. Buyers take the risk and get the benefits at a cheap price.
> 
> Here's an example http://cyclingyong.com/goods-480-De...+Bike+FrameFork+50CM+52CM+54CM+56CM+58CM.html


How can you tell the ride quality is the same unless you have a real one? Plus, you can get all of the above without the "Pinarello" logo, so putting the Pinarello logo on there just screams poser. Who cares what it says if all you want is a great bike at a great price, right?


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## vladvm

DiegoMontoya said:


> How can you tell the ride quality is the same unless you have a real one? Plus, you can get all of the above without the "Pinarello" logo, so putting the Pinarello logo on there just screams poser. Who cares what it says if all you want is a great bike at a great price, right?



Someone on the other thread has the real Prince and naked carbon, he could not tell the difference. Maybe they are the same? Who knows.

I agree personalizing the frame is better.


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## rhauft

vladvm said:


> Someone on the other thread has the real Prince and naked carbon, he could not tell the difference. Maybe they are the same? Who knows.


"Someone on the other thread" is jerking your chain.

I've got a bridge for sale here in San Francisco, its red and "like new"...


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## vladvm

rhauft said:


> "Someone on the other thread" is jerking your chain.


maybe, who knows.


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## rhauft

caveat emptor


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## Dave Hickey

I just bought a Porsche GT3. Well it's a GT3 knockoff.. 

It looks just like the real thing and drives like a dream……Rumor has it, it’s made in the same plant as a real Porsche( BTW, this is a pedal car and I don't own it) 

Just because they look same doesn't mean they are constructed the same......For some reason this concept is lost on so many...


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## rhauft

Dave Hickey said:


> I just bought a Porsche GT3. Well it's a GT3 knockoff..
> It looks just like the real thing and drives like a dream……Rumor has it, it’s made in the same plant as a real Porsche( BTW, this is a pedal car and I don't own it)
> Just because they look same doesn't mean they are constructed the same......For some reason this concept is lost on so many...


Agreed, saw that "Porsche" test pedaled on Top Gear a while back. "driver" was covered in sweat after one 22min. lap. Very funny.


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## kbwh

He would have been faster on a Pina, huh?


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## rlafleur

*Fake Pinarello*

Yes... I'd feel real confident going 45 mph downhill on my fake Pinarello, equipped with $300 Chinese carbon wheels. (Well on second thought, I think I'll keep my Paris and Zipps.)


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## steiger1

rlafleur said:


> Yes... I'd feel real confident going 45 mph downhill on my fake Pinarello, equipped with $300 Chinese carbon wheels. (Well on second thought, I think I'll keep my Paris and Zipps.)


Exactly.

It´s just a crime committed by these chinese, nothing else. The paintings look poor, you will recognize the difference at once.


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## enzo269

vladvm said:


> it's hard to tell the difference..
> 
> 1. internal cable routing
> 2. italian threading
> 3. same geometry
> 4. same weight
> 5. same glitter paints
> 6. great ride quality
> 
> except the price
> 
> I don't know if the material is inferior because not a lot of failure reported so far, plus the sellers are willing to replace immediately if there are defects. Buyers take the risk and get the benefits at a cheap price.
> 
> Here's an example http://cyclingyong.com/goods-480-De...+Bike+FrameFork+50CM+52CM+54CM+56CM+58CM.html


Not hard at all.. If you look at the carbon weave, way off, glitter paint looks like a child painted it with lip gloss.. Decals are off too.. These are better Chinarello's but most are completely horrible.


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## vladvm

enzo269 said:


> Not hard at all.. If you look at the carbon weave, way off, glitter paint looks like a child painted it with lip gloss.. Decals are off too.. These are better Chinarello's but most are completely horrible.


I think people not familiar with Pinarello paint scheme will have a hard time telling a fake from the real one.


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## rhauft

vladvm said:


> I think people not familiar with Pinarello paint scheme will have a hard time telling a fake from the real one.


Sounds to me like the only person having a hard time telling a fake from a real one is you.

They're making some really good fake Rolexs too. I've also read that the Chinese are making fake BMWs that look exactly like the real thing. 
Might as well grab one of those while you're at it. 

Here's the thing. They are worthless fakes, not worth a dime. If you were to try and sell your 2nd hand knock-off, what do you think you'd get for it? 
Exactly what its worth - which aint much.

Also, whenever I discover someone is sporting a fake watch/jewelry/bike/car/breasts, I automatically assume that all the rest of their BS is just as fake and full of $hit. 
But hey, to each their own, enjoy your fake lifestyle.


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## providince

These threads always make me laugh.


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## vladvm

rhauft said:


> Sounds to me like the only person having a hard time telling a fake from a real one is you.
> 
> They're making some really good fake Rolexs too. I've also read that the Chinese are making fake BMWs that look exactly like the real thing.
> Might as well grab one of those while you're at it.
> 
> Here's the thing. They are worthless fakes, not worth a dime. If you were to try and sell your 2nd hand knock-off, what do you think you'd get for it?
> Exactly what its worth - which aint much.
> 
> Also, whenever I discover someone is sporting a fake watch/jewelry/bike/car/breasts, I automatically assume that all the rest of their BS is just as fake and full of $hit.
> But hey, to each their own, enjoy your fake lifestyle.


+1 on fake chinarellos and fake breasts:thumbsup:


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## sbthaut

Actually, there are a few out there that are incredibly convincing copies. I purchased one that was promised to be a Prince and it looked the part but there were some VERY subtle differences that got my attention, and when the frame came the biggest thing for me was the lack of a serial number.

Took it into my dealer and they agreed that the paint quality was incredible and the graphics were spot on, but Pinarello would never let a frame leave their factory without a serial number, and there were some subtle but definite differences in the bottom bracket. I was able to get my money back but the seller swears up and down that it was legitimate even after I laid out the case and differences to him.

There are some awful copies out there, and there are some great ones. I have owned 3 Pina's and I wasn't certain until I could do a side by side comparison. Unless you buy from an authorized dealer, buyer beware!!


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## sbthaut

Here is a link to that auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...2F40THo%3D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## arcustic

In my opinion, copying a particular product is pretty easy given today's technology.

Buying a fake designer watch and it doesn't work the same as the original, the most throw it a way or put it aside.

However, buying a carbon frame is an entire different story. Those fakes are produced to get quick bucks. They maybe successful in following the shape, design and colour. What is difficult is the material used, the stiffness and thickness at different part of the frame, the treatment to mold the frame, etc. Especially with Torayca carbon which Pinarello has the exclusive rights to use. Without proper R&D, we never know when the frame may give way during the ride. And this can be a matter of life and death...especially when going down hills.

That alone, will deter me from getting a fake. Buy what I could afford and enjoy it


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## vladvm

sbthaut said:


> Actually, there are a few out there that are incredibly convincing copies. I purchased one that was promised to be a Prince and it looked the part but there were some VERY subtle differences that got my attention, and when the frame came the biggest thing for me was the lack of a serial number.
> 
> Took it into my dealer and they agreed that the paint quality was incredible and the graphics were spot on, but Pinarello would never let a frame leave their factory without a serial number, and there were some subtle but definite differences in the bottom bracket. I was able to get my money back but the seller swears up and down that it was legitimate even after I laid out the case and differences to him.
> 
> There are some awful copies out there, and there are some great ones. I have owned 3 Pina's and I wasn't certain until I could do a side by side comparison. Unless you buy from an authorized dealer, buyer beware!!





sbthaut said:


> Here is a link to that auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...2F40THo%3D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT


You should have bought direct from Taiwan., italian thread and made of toray carbon and that is where FP3's/FP7's/Prince/Paris are made not from USA which are clearly fake.


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## DiegoMontoya

vladvm said:


> You should have bought direct from Taiwan., italian thread and made of toray carbon and that is where FP3's/FP7's/Prince/Paris are made not from USA which are clearly fake.


The fakes are not from Taiwan, they're from China. I know you're happy with your fake, but don't lie about it.


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## rhauft

sbthaut said:


> Here is a link to that auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...2F40THo%3D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT


I've had dealings with the seller of that fake Prince on eBay. He contacted me several months ago when I was selling my (real) Paris and one of my (real) Princes. He is a complete fraud and a total d-bag. After my brief encounter with him I blocked him from bidding on any of my auctions now and in the future. My advise to all is steer clear of him.


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## PlatyPius

arcustic said:


> In my opinion, copying a particular product is pretty easy given today's technology.
> 
> Buying a fake designer watch and it doesn't work the same as the original, the most throw it a way or put it aside.
> 
> However, buying a carbon frame is an entire different story. Those fakes are produced to get quick bucks. They maybe successful in following the shape, design and colour. What is difficult is the material used, the stiffness and thickness at different part of the frame, the treatment to mold the frame, etc. Especially with Torayca carbon which Pinarello has the exclusive rights to use. Without proper R&D, we never know when the frame may give way during the ride. And this can be a matter of life and death...especially when going down hills.
> 
> That alone, will deter me from getting a fake. *Buy what I could afford and enjoy it*


That is the most logical thing anyone else has ever said in regard to these fake crap Pinarellos....


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## DiegoMontoya

The nice thing about these fake Pinarellos is that if you end up breaking it on the road, you can read the copy of the Beijing Times stuffed inside the frame while you're waiting for your ride home.


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## foofighter

DiegoMontoya said:


> The nice thing about these fake Pinarellos is that if you end up breaking it on the road, you can read the copy of the Beijing Times stuffed inside the frame while you're waiting for your ride home.


LOL "LIKE"


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## enzo269

there are a couple of really bad Chinarello's on Ebay as we speak... There is a Prince on there that was so funny, I nearly pissed my pants!


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## PlatyPius

enzo269 said:


> there are a couple of really bad Chinarello's on Ebay as we speak... There is a Prince on there that was so funny, I nearly pissed my pants!


Too bad you removed the link. It was in the email though, so I went and looked at the one you listed. It reads nice for a while. Then you realize that it's text stolen from Pinarello's site. The handlebar looks exactly like a Control Tech, even having the same logo, except it's an "Element".
And then you get to the seller's description...



> 700CC carbon road bikes.
> Frame size: 54cm
> Fork: carbon fiber.
> Gear groups: Shimano 6700groups for 20speed
> 
> Crank sets: shimano 6700groupsets.
> Freewheel: shimano 6700groupsets.
> Chian: shimanom 6700group sets.
> SHifer: shiman o 6700groupsets.
> 
> Wheel sets: full carbon fiber Element" charisma" model.
> Hubs: DP for shimano group sets.
> Spoke: S. zero balck.
> Tire: 700CC *23CC Germany Giro.
> 
> Handle bar: half carbon,carbon fiber Elment finished, with enough safty standard.
> Stem: alloy painted color, with enough safty standard.
> Seat post: alloy painted color, with enough safty standard.





I like how it has "enough" 'safty'[sic] standard.
Sadly, some moron will probably buy this. I don't know if he'll be welcomed into Valhalla after he dies a horrible death or not.


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## enzo269

Whoops, must have erased link when I put some comments in.. Here is the bike for everyone's comedic pleasure.. Even comes with Chinese Sella Italia seat! Look at the Charisma wheels! AHAHAH!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pinarello-road-...50792869951?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item3a646b803f


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## PlatyPius

I made an offer on it... 


<table style="width: 527px; height: 54px;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="lightColorTxt" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="1%">*Your offer price:*</td> <td class="firstDataStyle" nowrap="nowrap" width="80%">*US $100.00* <nobr></nobr></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="labelColumn" align="right" valign="top">Message to seller:</td> <td class="oDataStyle">Since it's a counterfeit, it isn't worth as much, obviously....</td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align: top;">
</td><td style="vertical-align: top;">
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## rhauft

Just made an offer on that piece of crap (fingers crossed)  

Pinarello road bicycle Prince NEW FULL carbon 54cm
Buy It Now price:	
$4,300.00
Your offer price:	*$0.99*
Your terms:	*You Pay Me To Haul It Away*
Offer expires:	Apr-15-11 07:55:03 PDT
View Item | Go to My eBay


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## enzo269

rhauft said:


> Just made an offer on that piece of crap (fingers crossed)
> 
> Pinarello road bicycle Prince NEW FULL carbon 54cm
> Buy It Now price:
> $4,300.00
> Your offer price:	*$0.99*
> Your terms:	*You Pay Me To Haul It Away*
> Offer expires:	Apr-15-11 07:55:03 PDT
> View Item | Go to My eBay


HAHAHAHA!~


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## enzo269

Someone must have reported the auction to EBAY.. The item was pulled.. Nice to know, someone isnt going to get ripped off paying 4k for a Chinarello..


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## rhauft

enzo269 said:


> Someone must have reported the auction to EBAY.. The item was pulled.. Nice to know, someone isnt going to get ripped off paying 4k for a Chinarello..


...or maybe he accepted my generous offer of $0.99 to haul his trash away... :idea:


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## sbthaut

This is what the guy sent to me via email for accusing him of selling fake Pina's. It actually made my day to read, apparently he is from Lebanon:

"you low life piece of garbage look on ebay now and see two prince like the one i sent you you bustard scum of the earth i hope the worst of the worst will happen to you viciously scam bag low life even though i sell the bike but for someone like you from utah you piece of garbage to question my integrity gush i wish you are in the state i like to spit on your face and take **** and throw it on your face for someone to insult my dignity you m piece of dust on a homeless shoe "


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## rhauft

sbthaut said:


> This is what the guy sent to me via email for accusing him of selling fake Pina's. It actually made my day to read, apparently he is from Lebanon:
> 
> "you low life piece of garbage look on ebay now and see two prince like the one i sent you you bustard scum of the earth i hope the worst of the worst will happen to you viciously scam bag low life even though i sell the bike but for someone like you from utah you piece of garbage to question my integrity gush i wish you are in the state i like to spit on your face and take **** and throw it on your face for someone to insult my dignity you m piece of dust on a homeless shoe "


WOW! I think you struck a nerve and I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are definitely off his Christmas card list...


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## nvrsetl

sbthaut said:


> This is what the guy sent to me via email for accusing him of selling fake Pina's. It actually made my day to read, apparently he is from Lebanon:
> 
> "you low life piece of garbage look on ebay now and see two prince like the one i sent you you bustard scum of the earth i hope the worst of the worst will happen to you viciously scam bag low life even though i sell the bike but for someone like you from utah you piece of garbage to question my integrity gush i wish you are in the state i like to spit on your face and take **** and throw it on your face for someone to insult my dignity you m piece of dust on a homeless shoe "



Then it HAS to be REAL....NOT!  

Some people....


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## rhauft

*Priceless!*

My favorite ebay listing. He's so proud of his artistry, he lists it twice! 
Been on ebay for months, Can't imagine why no takers...
http://cgi.ebay.com/PINARELLO-PRINC...isme_Vélos&hash=item43a664f4b6#ht_1046wt_1141


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## arcustic

sbthaut said:


> This is what the guy sent to me via email for accusing him of selling fake Pina's. It actually made my day to read, apparently he is from Lebanon:
> 
> "you low life piece of garbage look on ebay now and see two prince like the one i sent you you bustard scum of the earth i hope the worst of the worst will happen to you viciously scam bag low life even though i sell the bike but for someone like you from utah you piece of garbage to question my integrity gush i wish you are in the state i like to spit on your face and take **** and throw it on your face for someone to insult my dignity you m piece of dust on a homeless shoe "


Ouch.....


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## vontress

"you m piece of dust on a homeless shoe "

Wowser! Can a shoe be homeless?


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## Sebastionmerckx

enzo269 said:


> Someone must have reported the auction to EBAY.. The item was pulled.. Nice to know, someone isnt going to get ripped off paying 4k for a Chinarello..


I reported it but I'm not sure if my report was what got it pulled...More likely,more than one person reported it.


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## mrbubbles

You people are in luck. Colnago's being copied too.

https://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store...-frame-and-fork-52Medium-520MM-BLACK-EPS.html


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## PlatyPius

I can't understand how someone could be enough of a douchebag to buy one of these things. Same with Rolex, Coach bags, etc. Do humans just feel *that* entitled to things they can't afford, but want to appear that they can, that they throw ethics in the bin?


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## nvrsetl

mrbubbles said:


> You people are in luck. Colnago's being copied too.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store...-frame-and-fork-52Medium-520MM-BLACK-EPS.html



Seeing that EPS and C59 made me tear. There goes the market as we will see these on the streets and local races soon enough.  

Also, on the ad at the very bottom there is fake Pinarello Dogma for sale as well


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## sbthaut

LOL, if we are going to have a conversation on ethics, I think buying cheap knock offs would be the least of my concerns as far as humanity goes.

My bigger frustration isn't so much around buying one, it's the douche bags that claim they are selling the real deal. Like I said, the frame I was sold reflected a good deal but not an unheard of price for a legitimate 2009 Prince frame set (he was selling it for 2k). It took a careful comparison of the frame at my local Pinarello dealer to see it was a fake. I was just fortunate enough to be able to get my money back and only suffer broken English insults as a result.


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## fab4

This sucks. The "Chinarello" didn't make it to the Velonews buyers guide.
http://velonews.competitor.com/tech/bike-buyers-guide


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## foofighter

holy crap, colnagos now?!?!


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## vladvm

And they use toray carbon http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/Products.asp?Id=400


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## robdamanii

PlatyPius said:


> I can't understand how someone could be enough of a douchebag to buy one of these things. Same with Rolex, Coach bags, etc. Do humans just feel *that* entitled to things they can't afford, but want to appear that they can, that they throw ethics in the bin?



Very simply, yes, they do. But that means the rest of us moral/ethical folk can mock 'em unmercifully.


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## robdamanii

vladvm said:


> And they use toray carbon http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/Products.asp?Id=400


Sure they do.

And I can say my poop is littered with gold nuggets. Doesn't mean it's true.

Although anyone gullible enough to buy a knock-off bike would probably go prospecting for gold....maybe I can make a few extra bucks?


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## PlatyPius

vladvm said:


> And they use toray carbon http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/Products.asp?Id=400


Sure they do.

[Edit: Okay, that's spooky.... I posted the same as Rob before I saw that he had posted....]


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## rhauft

...and my bridge for sale is also made of Torayca! 
Perhaps we need a new sub-forum for all the fake Italian bike fans... *cough-vladvm-cough*


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## vladvm

Chinarello bike fan


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## robdamanii

vladvm said:


> Chinarello bike fan


I prefer the term "morally bankrupt consumer" myself.


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## PlatyPius

robdamanii said:


> I prefer the term "morally bankrupt consumer" myself.


Seriously.

"Well, it sez Toray on the website, and there's a Toray sticker on the frame!"

Yeah, and the fake jerseys/bibs from China say "Giordana" on them, too.
There is zero respect for brand names/honesty in the magickal land of Chinese business.


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## shermes

PlatyPius said:


> Seriously.
> 
> "Well, it sez Toray on the website, and there's a Toray sticker on the frame!"
> 
> Yeah, and the fake jerseys/bibs from China say "Giordana" on them, too.
> There is zero respect for brand names/honesty in the magickal land of Chinese business.



It's sad that people think that not only is it ok to buy an illegal counterfeit but that it's the same as the real thing. If you want a Pinarello buy one, if you can't afford it or don't think it's worth the price then don't buy it. It is not ok to use this as justification to buy an illegal counterfeit.


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## vladvm

Fake is a fake. I ride my cheap chinarello, you ride your Asian made frame, people can't tell  all is happy.


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## PlatyPius

vladvm said:


> Fake is a fake. I ride my cheap chinarello, you ride your Asian made frame, people can't tell  all is happy.


My frame isn't Asian-made...


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## robdamanii

vladvm said:


> Fake is a fake. I ride my cheap chinarello, you ride your Asian made frame, people can't tell  all is happy.


Funny, neither is mine...


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## mrbubbles

Don't you just love it when people can't conspicuously consume Veblen goods as much as before thanks to substitutes?

"Oh these people! Why can't they buy $5000 bikes like me instead shiddy China bike? My gawd!"


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## DiegoMontoya

mrbubbles said:


> Don't you just love it when people can't conspicuously consume Veblen goods as much as before thanks to substitutes?
> 
> "Oh these people! Why can't they buy $5000 bikes like me instead shiddy China bike? My gawd!"


This isn't about buying a less expensive bike. It's about buying a COUNTERFEIT. If anyone is exhibiting status-seeking behavior, it's the people who buy the fakes.

Actually, in the end, I really don't care if 10 people show up on Chinarellos at our local Wednesday night worlds. I like my Pinarello fine, and if someone wants to buy a fake, it doesn't hurt me any. I don't plan on selling mine anyway.

To some degree, I think Pinarello deserves this for shamelessly putting those "Made in Italy" stickers on their bikes.


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## foofighter

is it just the dogmas? because my FP7 had the made in taiwan sticker on the bottom bracket


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## vladvm

foofighter said:


> is it just the dogmas? because my FP7 had the made in taiwan sticker on the bottom bracket


any carbon. vintage steel pinas were made in italy, like my lugged steel treviso.


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## hargo

i dont really see what the big deal is. if someone wants to ride a knockoff, I dont see that as an ethical issue. most people cant afford an expensive bike. and those bike companies make millions of dollars. if the quality was actually safe, id get one. but i dont want to kill myself on some piece of ****.


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## DiegoMontoya

My magnesium Dogma was made in Italy. I believe it's the carbon Dogmas and Princes that are manufactured in Taiwan but say "Made in Italy."


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## 2velo

Nothing says desperate status seeking more than buying a fake of something. In essence you're declaring to the world that you are desperate to buy into the supposed cachet of a brand but you're either too cheap or too poor to do so. What's the point?


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## providince

I think someone who thinks a bike, no matter the brand, grants you some sort of status might be the most desperate.


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## robdamanii

hargo said:


> i dont really see what the big deal is. if someone wants to ride a knockoff, I dont see that as an ethical issue. most people cant afford an expensive bike. and those bike companies make millions of dollars. if the quality was actually safe, id get one. but i dont want to kill myself on some piece of ****.


So because they are a for-profit business that means it's ok to buy a counterfeit item that they have worked at and spent money on building a brand image for?

I'm guessing you find it acceptable to steal MP3s and cheat on taxes too? After all, as long as they make millions of dollars...


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## mrbubbles

robdamanii said:


> I'm guessing you find it acceptable to steal MP3s and cheat on taxes too?


Why not? People do it all the time.


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## hargo

As far as ethics go, believe me you can pick anyone apart and see that they are unethical. Don't kid yourself


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## hargo

I just realized they're only $100. I'm going to get a set of fake eastons and roll it as a single speed. I think it's funny. Sorry


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## robdamanii

mrbubbles said:


> Why not? People do it all the time.


So because other people steal it's ok for you to do it? 

Wrong is wrong is wrong. You can try to justify it all you want, but it is still wrong.


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## PlatyPius

mrbubbles said:


> Why not? People do it all the time.


There are so many other things that I could apply this to...

Bestiality, pedophilia, murder, etc. Are these okay because other people do it all the time?


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## mrbubbles

robdamanii said:


> So because other people steal it's ok for you to do it?
> 
> Wrong is wrong is wrong. You can try to justify it all you want, but it is still wrong.


Buying counterfeit product isn't the equivalence of theft though. Nice try. 

Also, download files on the interweb isn't stealing. 



PlatyPius said:


> There are so many other things that I could apply this to...
> 
> Bestiality, pedophilia, murder, etc. Are these okay because other people do it all the time?


People don't commit bestiality, pedophilia, murder, all the time mister, a few deviants do that. Analogy fail. Downloading mp3 files is done by every teenager, almost.


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## robdamanii

mrbubbles said:


> Buying counterfeit product isn't the equivalence of theft though. Nice try.
> 
> Also, download files on the interweb isn't stealing.
> 
> 
> 
> People don't commit bestiality, pedophilia, murder, all the time mister, a few deviants do that. Analogy fail. Downloading mp3 files is done by every teenager, almost.


Buying a counterfeit product is immoral, as is stealing (be it MP3 music or diamonds.) Legality aside, you're a moral midget for condoning it.

Not even going to comment on your asinine backwards logic about MP3 pirating.


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## Ray_from_SA

vladvm said:


> And they use toray carbon http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/Products.asp?Id=400


And you do realize this has no relevance over whether something is genuine or not.

A synthetic sapphire is made of the same elements as a natural sapphire, it's still a synthetic sapphire though.


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## mrbubbles

robdamanii said:


> Buying a counterfeit product is immoral, as is stealing (be it MP3 music or diamonds.) Legality aside, you're a moral midget for condoning it.
> 
> Not even going to comment on your asinine backwards logic about MP3 pirating.


Of all things to worry about, buying counterfeit product is the least of anybody's worry. You should see how successful imitation iPhones (or whatever copies of the hottest items today) are in developing world. Not everyone shares your moral absolutism. 

File sharing and file pirating is different from actual theft, hence there are IP laws and laws addressing real theft. The logic is sound, there is no moral equivalence.


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## robdamanii

mrbubbles said:


> Of all things to worry about, buying counterfeit product is the least of anybody's worry. You should see how successful imitation iPhones (or whatever copies of the hottest items today) are in developing world. Not everyone shares your moral absolutism.
> 
> File sharing and file pirating is different from actual theft, hence there are IP laws and laws addressing real theft. The logic is sound, there is no moral equivalence.


Very few people have any kind of morality anymore, so I shouldn't expect much out of an apologist like yourself.

Bottom line: buying a counterfeit frame is wrong. If you don't have a problem with it, then good on you for "sticking it to the man" or whatever your rallying cry may be. The simple fact is that anyone buying a counterfeit frame is simply engaging in cycling's version of social climbing. It used to be if you couldn't afford the bike you worked to earn the money to buy it, or you just did without. Now it's "buy a fake, there's no difference." If you don't see a problem with that, then there's no point in further discussion.


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## PlatyPius

The human race is doomed....


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## robdamanii

PlatyPius said:


> The human race is doomed....


It has been for decades...


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## mrbubbles

robdamanii said:


> Bottom line: buying a counterfeit frame is wrong.


Why is it wrong though? If I may ask, you seem to be quite emotional invested in this topic. 



PlatyPius said:


> The human race is doomed....


Yessiree, the human race is doomed because people are buying counterfeit products.


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## robdamanii

mrbubbles said:


> Why is it wrong though? If I may ask, you seem to be quite emotional invested in this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Yessiree, the human race is doomed because people are buying counterfeit products.


You're buying something that is ripping off the hard work and the money spent by another person/company to build a brand. You're not compensating them for a cent of their work, merely worrying about the size of your proverbial johnson compared to the next guy.

But then again, I wouldn't expect you to understand the morality of counterfeit frames. You've already made it quite clear that you endorse these bastardized hunks of carbon crap, so there's little point in attempting to instill any kind of morality in you.


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## mrbubbles

robdamanii said:


> You're buying something that is ripping off the hard work and the money spent by another person/company to build a brand. You're not compensating them for a cent of their work,


Why do they need to be compensated when there are substitutes available? You make it sound like businesses deserve money from the average Joe. 



robdamanii said:


> merely worrying about the size of your proverbial johnson compared to the next guy.


I ride a Specialized S-Works E5, so no, I'm not worried about the size of my "proverbial johnson" thank you very much.


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## robdamanii

mrbubbles said:


> Why do they need to be compensated when there are substitutes available? You make it sound like businesses deserve money from the average Joe.
> 
> 
> 
> I ride a Specialized S-Works E5, so no, I'm not worried about the size of my "proverbial johnson" thank you very much.


A substitute should be a different bike or frame, NOT an counterfeit item bearing the same labeling and shape/design. That is specifically what you are incapable of understanding or just plain choose to ignore. 

Businesses DO deserve to be compensated for the goods they produce/sell. The business who actually put their money, time and effort into building their brand is entitled to collect on their investment, not some leech producing crappy chinese knockoffs and selling them on the internet to a bunch of social climbing morons in order to fuel their entitlement fantasies.


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## mrbubbles

I'm under the impression that people are free to spend their money wherever they choose (this include buying "crappy chinese knockoffs" that people might supposedly die riding*). Consumers are not there to satisfy business, it's the other way around, if I'm not mistaken. 

*Speaking of the sudden carbon combustion, has anyone actually broken the clones while riding? (Not talking about the real broken Pinarellos of course, plenty of those on the interweb)


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## vladvm

Ray_from_SA said:


> And you do realize this has no relevance over whether something is genuine or not.
> 
> A synthetic sapphire is made of the same elements as a natural sapphire, it's still a synthetic sapphire though.


I use mobil1 synthetic oil over dino oil and your point is?


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## robdamanii

mrbubbles said:


> I'm under the impression that people are free to spend their money wherever they choose (this include buying "crappy chinese knockoffs" that people might supposedly die riding*). Consumers are not there to satisfy business, it's the other way around, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> *Speaking of the sudden carbon combustion, has anyone actually broken the clones while riding? (Not talking about the real broken Pinarellos of course, plenty of those on the interweb)


There have been a few instances of destroyed chinese crap. Of course there are more instances of broken Pinarellos, there are significantly more of them in use, and likely more being used in much harsher circumstances than the junk people are buying from china.

People are free to spend their money how they wish. However, freedom to spend money does not preclude some morality in decision making. If you're able to justify purchasing a counterfeit item as a "savings" then that's your burden to bear. I'm not going to try to convince anyone otherwise if they're too dense to understand that counterfeiting is wrong, and buying counterfeit is wrong. I will however continue to assert my viewpoint on the counterfeit garbage being sold out of china, and continue to assert that the people who buy them or condone the purchase of them are morally devoid sacks of meat.


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## 2velo

providince said:


> I think someone who thinks a bike, no matter the brand, grants you some sort of status might be the most desperate.


Yes I agree which is why I said in my post it's buying a fake of a "supposed cachet" associated with a brand of bike. It's ridiculous especially when you can buy any number of decent frames for the same money.

From a safety point of view who would trust a fake pinarello from an anonymous buyer on eBay? We're not talking knockoff Louis Vuitton handbags.


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## vladvm

2velo said:


> Yes I agree which is why I said in my post it's buying a fake of a "supposed cachet" associated with a brand of bike. It's ridiculous especially when you can buy any number of decent frames for the same money.
> 
> From a safety point of view who would trust a fake pinarello from an anonymous buyer on eBay? We're not talking knockoff Louis Vuitton handbags.


I doubt there are "brand-name" full toray carbon monocoque sub 1kg bike frameset you can buy less than $500-600 with full carbon fork, carbon integrated handle bar, carbon seatpost, carbon seatpost clamp, carbon saddle, integrated headset, delivered and customizable to your liking and build up to sub 15lb. bike that performs just as well and even better than most branded bike with no question replacement. And you can always negotiate he price down!

You'd be surprised on how many budget owners have them.


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## hargo

One could easily argue that spending 5k on a ****ing bicycle is immoral as that money could be used for I dont know, feeding starving children. Seriously, enough of the hypochritical sanctimony. Also, the only people who would actually buy a pinerello would never buy a knockoff, e.g., pinerello is losing no money from the counterfeits. I really can't believe that people believe a discussion on bikes and ethics can have anything to do with one another. I promise you, there are far more pressing ethical issues that we all ignore.


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## robdamanii

hargo said:


> One could easily argue that spending 5k on a ****ing bicycle is immoral as that money could be used for I dont know, feeding starving children. Seriously, enough of the hypochritical sanctimony. Also, the only people who would actually buy a pinerello would never buy a knockoff, e.g., pinerello is losing no money from the counterfeits. I really can't believe that people believe a discussion on bikes and ethics can have anything to do with one another. I promise you, there are far more pressing ethical issues that we all ignore.


There's nothing immoral about working for what you have. There is something immoral about purchasing counterfeit material, no matter which way you slice it.

And cut the crap about "people buying a Pinarello wouldn't buy a knockoff so no loss to Pinarello." Having counterfeit merchandise out there cheapens the brand. You know that, they know that, they've publicly warned about these rip-off artists. 

You're right, there are far more pressing moral and ethical issues. When they become the topic of debate, we'll discuss them. Right now, the topic is chinese rip-off artists.


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## PlatyPius

The point that all of the "pro-counterfeit" people seem to be missing is that it's illegal. Why is it illegal? It costs legitimate companies billions of dollars each year.

From Wikipedia:



> In a detailed breakdown of the counterfeit goods industry, the total loss faced by countries around the world is $600 Billion, with the United States facing the most economic impact.<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4]</sup> When calculating counterfeit products, current estimates place the global losses at $400 Billion.<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5]</sup> On November 29, 2010, the Department of Homeland Security seized and shut down 82 websites as part of a U.S. crackdown of websites that sell counterfeit goods, and was timed to coincide with "Cyber Monday," the start of the holiday online shopping season.<sup id="cite_ref-Wired_5-0" class="reference">[6]</sup>
> Some see the rise in counterfeiting of goods as being related to globalization. As more and more companies, in an effort to increase profits, move manufacturing to the cheaper labour markets of the third world, areas with weaker labour laws or environmental regulations, they give the means of production to foreign workers. These new managers of production have little or no loyalty to the original corporation. They see that profits are being made by the global brand for doing little (other than advertising) and see the possibilities of removing the middle men (i.e. the parent corporation) and marketing directly to the consumer.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> *Most counterfeit goods are produced in China*, making it the counterfeit capital of the world. In fact, the counterfeiting industry accounts for 8% of China's GDP.<sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference">[7]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference">[8]</sup> Joining China are North Korea and Taiwan. Some counterfeits are produced in the same factory that produces the original, authentic product, *using inferior materials*. Another strange new trend in counterfeiting, especially seen in consumer electronics, is the manufacture of entirely novel products using poor quality materials or, more often, incorporating desirable features not present in a brand's authentic product line and then including prominent and fake brand names and logotypes to profit from brand recognition or brand image. An example would be imitation "Nokia" cellular phones with features like WiFi, touchscreens or TV, which are unavailable in authentic originals. Another example would be imitation "iPod" MP3 players whose power cells or batteries are removable and replaceable, whereas in authentic originals the power cells or batteries are permanently installed.
> In the United States, a federal crackdown on counterfeit imports is driving an increase in domestic output of fake merchandise, according to investigators and industry executives. Raids carried out in New York City resulted in the seizure of an estimated $200 Million in counterfeit apparel, bearing the logos of brands such as "The North Face," "Polo," "Izod Lacoste," "Rocawear," "Seven for all Mankind," and "Fubu." One of the largest seizures was a joint operation in Arizona, Texas and California that seized seventy-seven containers of fake "Nike Air Jordan" shoes and a container of "Abercrombie & Fitch" clothing, valued at $69.5 Million. Another current method of attacking counterfeits is at the retail level. Fendi sued the "Sam's Club" division of Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. for selling fake "Fendi" bags and leather goods in five states. Sam's Club agreed to pay Fendi a confidential amount to settle the dispute and dismiss the action. In the case _[Tiffany v. eBay]]_, Tiffany & Co. sued auction site EBay for allowing the sale of counterfeit items. Gucci filed suit against thirty websites in the United States and is currently<sup class="noprint Inline-Template" title="The time period in the vicinity of this tag is ambiguous from December 2010" style="white-space: nowrap;">[_when?_]</sup> in the process of suing one hundred more.


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## arcustic

vladvm said:


> And they use toray carbon http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/Products.asp?Id=400


What makes you so sure that they use Torayca carbon? If they could copy the frame, claiming it to be Torayca carbon, even with the Torayca decal, is piece of cake.

Like I previously mentioned, only Pinarello has exclusive rights to Torayca carbon for their high end models....Paris, Prince, Dogma. I'm pretty sure Pinarello would have taken the issue up with Torayca if all these counterfeits are using Torayca carbon.

From what I know, all Pinarello's frames are built in Taiwan.....be it FP2 or Dogma. All frames have a Made In Taiwan sticker at the bottom of the bottom bracket. These frames are sold to the international market.


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## PlatyPius

arcustic said:


> What makes you so sure that they use Torayca carbon?


What are you saying?! The nice counterfeiters would never lie!


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## DiegoMontoya

arcustic said:


> What makes you so sure that they use Torayca carbon? If they could copy the frame, claiming it to be Torayca carbon, even with the Torayca decal, is piece of cake.
> 
> Like I previously mentioned, only Pinarello has exclusive rights to Torayca carbon for their high end models....Paris, Prince, Dogma. I'm pretty sure Pinarello would have taken the issue up with Torayca if all these counterfeits are using Torayca carbon.
> 
> From what I know, all Pinarello's frames are built in Taiwan.....be it FP2 or Dogma. All frames have a Made In Taiwan sticker at the bottom of the bottom bracket. These frames are sold to the international market.


No, no, no. Pinarello only has exclusive rights to one type of Torayca carbon. There are many many types and a lot of manufacturers use them. Pina just has the rights to the 60 modulus grade, which is then weaved in a 1k pattern.

My Prince has a "Made in Italy" sticker above the BB. Happy to post a pic if anyone wants.


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## hargo

As a matter for debate, this is just another topic, but when someone calls another immoral for buying an imitation bike I get a little irritated as the accuser I am sure is guilty enough of his own immorality. As I have alluded to, I find it a worse crime to spend $5000 on a bike when that money could go to actually helping others rather than buying some imitation and could potentially use the left over money to help people. Of course this is all theoretical, but then again, in my opinion having a debate over the merits of buying a brand is absurd.


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## mrbubbles

Some people need to chill here. Torayca Industry supply a lot of people, don't get a boner over "omg its got Torayca carbon fiber", please, gimme a break. 

T-700 weave carbon fiber used in bicycle is made by a lot of companies, namely SK Chemical's Sky Flex, Torayca, Mitsubishi Rayon, Formosa Plastics, etc. The things carbon fiber weave manufacturer have in common? They specialize in chemical and plastic products. 

Designs for these bikes gets thrown all over the place. Engineers who worked for, say, a Pinarello contractor in Taiwan may head over to the mainland and bring their ideas with them, at the same time, bypass exclusivity agreement. Another company can also pick up the design and run away with it. Brand companies would love to clamp down on 3rd party products, but that's just unrealistic. 

At the end of the day, you all have a hard-on for branding and "prestige", which is mainly built up by marketing and subversive psychology, like "Made in Italy" is better than anywhere else and is top-notch, never mind that the made-in labeling has been so diluted by companies these days it doesn't make sense anymore.

Let's use Pinarello as an example, an Italian brand, Japanese carbon fibre, Taiwanese/Chinese manufacturer, who knows what kind of paint it uses. Is it a made in Italy bike?


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## hargo

Wow, you almost made me feel bad for the poor, exploited United States. Are you out of your Fu cking mind? We have and continue to rape the world of goods and labor. We use 80% of the worlds resources, 80%! and your crying over the Chinese selling counterfeit goods? Get a clue. Seriously.


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## hargo

mrbubbles said:


> Some people need to chill here. Torayca Industry supply a lot of people, don't get a boner over "omg its got Torayca carbon fiber", please, gimme a break.
> 
> T-700 weave carbon fiber used in bicycle is made by a lot of companies, namely SK Chemical's Sky Flex, Torayca, Mitsubishi Rayon, Formosa Plastics, etc. The things carbon fiber weave manufacturer have in common? They specialize in chemical and plastic products.
> 
> Designs for these bikes gets thrown all over the place. Engineers who worked for, say, a Pinarello contractor in Taiwan may head over to the mainland and bring their ideas with them, at the same time, bypass exclusivity agreement. Another company can also pick up the design and run away with it. Brand companies would love to clamp down on 3rd party products, but that's just unrealistic.
> 
> At the end of the day, you all have a hard-on for branding and "prestige", which is mainly built up by marketing and subversive psychology, like "Made in Italy" is better than anywhere else and is top-notch, never mind that the made-in labeling has been so diluted by companies these days it doesn't make sense anymore.
> 
> Let's use Pinarello as an example, an Italian brand, Japanese carbon fibre, Taiwanese/Chinese manufacturer, who knows what kind of paint it uses. Is it a made in Italy bike?



Good points. Thank you. And now I will support the hard work of the counterfeiter with no moral compunction


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## arcustic

DiegoMontoya said:


> No, no, no. Pinarello only has exclusive rights to one type of Torayca carbon. There are many many types and a lot of manufacturers use them. Pina just has the rights to the 60 modulus grade, which is then weaved in a 1k pattern.
> 
> My Prince has a "Made in Italy" sticker above the BB. Happy to post a pic if anyone wants.


Ok. I maybe wrong. The point that I'm trying to bring across is that counterfeiters can claim anything they deem fit. After all they are all fakes.


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## arcustic

PlatyPius said:


> What are you saying?! The nice counterfeiters would never lie!


Haha...you bet....they will lie about almost everything.


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## arcustic

vladvm said:


> Fake is a fake. I ride my cheap chinarello, you ride your Asian made frame, people can't tell  all is happy.


Hmm....I wonder....what is the purpose of you riding your bike. If it is to show others what you are riding, then I get your point.


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## arcustic

I think it's time to chill.....the topic is getting heated up. If there's nobody buying counterfeits, there wouldn't even be counterfeiters in the first place. Counterfeiters exist because of a certain demand. So let's not called people by names. Everyone has a point of view. At the end of the day, what matter most is that you enjoy your ride. Instead of debating here endlessly, why not take our bikes out for a spin....I think its more fun


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## config

The title of this book says it all - "It's not about the bike". It's from some guy named Armstrong ;-)? I should probably read it one of these days. Hmmm...


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## vladvm

arcustic said:


> Hmm....I wonder....what is the purpose of you riding your bike. If it is to show others what you are riding, then I get your point.


to get from A to B like work, or visiting friends really fast in style and comfort.
totally utilitarian, all year round except when the roads are not plowed.


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## vladvm

hargo said:


> Good points. Thank you. And now I will support the hard work of the counterfeiter with no moral compunction


just make sure you do your research on which seller you buy from, there is a huge thread in the Road Frame forum on which sellers sells what model. There are also different prices so make sure you haggle down the price to get optimum value. and if you decide to build yourself, there are lots of enthusiast that can help you. good luck!


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## vladvm

arcustic said:


> What makes you so sure that they use Torayca carbon?


because that is what the manufacturer uses to produce these unpainted OEM frames.


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## vladvm

arcustic said:


> At the end of the day, what matter most is that you enjoy your ride. Instead of debating here endlessly, why not take our bikes out for a spin....I think its more fun


i agree :thumbsup:


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## vladvm

DiegoMontoya said:


> My Prince has a "Made in Italy" sticker above the BB. Happy to post a pic if anyone wants.


mine says "Made in Canada" :thumbsup:


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## robdamanii

hargo said:


> Good points. Thank you. And now I will support the hard work of the counterfeiter with no moral compunction


So you're a cheap, immoral failure of a human being. Well, it's good to know where everyone stands. 

You're the one that has to live with your poor choices.


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## PlatyPius

The amount of rationalisation in this thread boggles my mind.

By the standards shown here, if Stephen King wrote a book, sold copies for $8.99, but then a counterfeiter copied the book and sold it for $3.99, that would be perfectly fine. S.K. doesn't deserve to be paid for his work. As long as you get his work for less money, all is right with the world.

I'm a big-picture kinda guy. I don't look at this as *just* people buying counterfeit bike frames. I see this as indicative of a complete degradation of societal ethics/morals/standards. Yes, there has always been counterfeiting. We have reached an unprecedented level now, though. Likewise, the consumer previously didn't know (usually) that the item was a counterfeit. It isn't so much the actual purchase of the counterfeit item that amazes and repulses me, it's the rationalisation used.

Actually, it's the same rationalisation used by bike shop customers discussing discounts and LBS pricing practices. The shop buys BikeA for $850. The shop (according to some people) should sell the bike for $850, or maybe $900. Who cares about the $35 in shipping to get the bike, the labour to assemble it, or the LBS owner actually making a living? As long as *YOU* get a good deal, that's all that matters, eh?

Too many people look at the *I* instead of the *we*.

(Disclaimer: No, I don't believe companies are saints or deserving of charity. I just believe in fairness, ethics, and honesty.)


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## mrbubbles

PlatyPius said:


> (I just believe in fairness, ethics, and honesty.)


Why of course you do, the world doesn't operate that way unfortunately.


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## hargo

robdamanii said:


> So you're a cheap, immoral failure of a human being. Well, it's good to know where everyone stands.
> 
> You're the one that has to live with your poor choices.


oh brother. im sure you make sure that all the goods you purchase were not made by sweatshop labor. im sure you give a good chunk of money to help people in need. im sure you probably never really think about the effect your actions have on the rest of the world. fu cking hypocrite.


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## sbthaut

LOL, man where is the perspective on this thread, we are still talking bicycle's here. I know I can never afford an exotic car, but I can afford an exotic bike. 

I may have a new Pinarello Dogma, but I drive a Honda Civic. You cannot even get an entry level BMW for under 35k. Do you throw eggs at all the three series you see drive by?


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