# Campagnolo Electronic Rollout Starts Nov 7



## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

ITALIAN CYCLING JOURNAL: Campagnolo Electronic: November 7th Launch


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Cliff Notes version: Jan/Feb 2012 for the regular public consumer 

**


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Sorry to sound like a party pooper, but I could care less! At a cost of $4,000 for the group their out their minds. And their especially out of their minds since I have no problems with the way mechanical ones shift, and their even more out their minds knowing that the mechanical ones will have less problems and have no need for a battery...another potential failure point, not to mention those small electric servos failure rates, not to mention the cost to replace a failed unit. No thanks. I guess if I had an unlimited financial stream and could care less about spending money on foolishness, then I would probably buy it to have another toy.


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## gb155 (Mar 26, 2011)

$4k ? That's eye watering !!!


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## Trevor Ash (May 19, 2005)

Where's the 4k quote? USD?


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

froze said:


> Sorry to sound like a party pooper, but I could care less! At a cost of $4,000 for the group their out their minds.


Isn't that about what Di2 cost when it first came out? How is it doing now?

Some old reviews I found indicated that Di2 was around 2400 to 2700 GBP (3800 - 4200 USD), April 2009. One site listed it as high as 4800$ USD.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Trevor Ash said:


> Where's the 4k quote? USD?


It was on line as an estimate in US dollars based on being at least $1500 more then the Record group; see: Campy Only's Predictions for the 2005 Campagnolo Lineup. Then just look up the cost of the Record group and that's how I came up with that number. There also saying that estimate could be on the low side!!


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## LePatron (Jan 5, 2011)

Even though I'm not about to go out and upgrade any time soon I can't help for being excited to see how this system turns out. The piece in Velonation says that it will be presented to the 2012 sponsored teams so I guess we'll also see which if there will be any team changes for next season.
Velonation Campagnolo Electronic


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

My fear with this electronic stuff, be it Di2, Campy, SRAM, whoever...is what do you do in the event that it quits working? There is no way you, or anyone else for that matter, are going to fix this roadside and continue riding. It is going to require getting SAG, ending the ride, and waiting while someone troubleshoots it and orders an expensive and tough to find part.

Mechanical is for me.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Have them call my people when the price drops by half...and there are partially-alloy parts available.


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

I wouldn't want Campy (or Shimano) electronic if the cost were $0. I'm betting a few people share my feeling. Combine that with the people who simply won't pay a huge premium for unproven stuff when the existing 11s groups are simply brilliant...

I don't see record sales forthcoming, no pun intended.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Cyclin Dan said:


> My fear with this electronic stuff, be it Di2, Campy, SRAM, whoever...is what do you do in the event that it quits working? There is no way you, or anyone else for that matter, are going to fix this roadside and continue riding. It is going to require getting SAG, ending the ride, and waiting while someone troubleshoots it and orders an expensive and tough to find part.
> 
> Mechanical is for me.



Wow, that's negativity :cryin:. There's mechanical parts that could end your ride, too...not to mention broken spokes and chains.

FWIW, my Shimano friend has had Di2 for 2 years and he says it hasn't burped once.

I wonder if you have even bought a car, as those can leave you stranded, too :idea:. Heh, just raggin' on ya!

**


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

I special ordered my pick up so I could get manual windows and door locks. This leads me to the assumption that I'm not quite ready for an electronic group just yet.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Erion929 said:


> Wow, that's negativity :cryin:. There's mechanical parts that could end your ride, too...not to mention broken spokes and chains.
> 
> FWIW, my Shimano friend has had Di2 for 2 years and he says it hasn't burped once.
> 
> ...


Actually you're an extremist!! Broken spokes, chains are not even remotely related to electronic or manual shifting, and relate bicycle electronic or manual shifting with a car...how in the hell did you equate those bits of nonsense?

If the simple battery takes a dump, or the signal goes out on the Di'2 while on a ride you're limited to whatever gear you're in at the time. The very worst that would happen on a manual derail is the cable breaking for the rear and then you're limited to two, maybe three gears in the front. You can also take a manual and move the rear derail to your desired gear and jam a twig in the parallelogram to prevent the derail from moving too.

BBUUUTTTT; you can fix a rear cable and improve your gear selection to 9 or 10 gears if you remove the front cable and use it for the rear which means you'll need to tie it with a square knot to the remaining rear cable, then thread it through the right lever. Anything else like a loose jockey wheel, a bent rear derail or hanger will happen to equally to a DI or manual system. But then you have the servos, once the rear fail you stuck to just 2 or 3 front gears. And currently there is no manual over ride for the electro systems making these things completely useless for touring.

Also shop repairs for any broken Di system will be costly if they can be repaired, more then likely you'll have to replace the derail, and you know what that means $$$$$; whereas with mechanical it would way cheaper.

This isn't the first attempt at electro system, Mavic did some time back and reliability issues put an end to the marketing of the product. Will the new systems suffer the a similar fate? Time will tell. Maybe instead the cost will seal it's fate? 

With mechanical systems most of the time you have temporary repairable solution to get you down the road, with electro systems you have none except your cell phone so you can call your mommy because your $7,000 bike failed while she wonder why people riding far less expensive bikes keep riding. Better hope you have a very understanding wife!!

I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion, their completely unrelated.

HEHEHE, just raggin' on ya man!!!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> I special ordered my pick up so I could get manual windows and door locks. This leads me to the assumption that I'm not quite ready for an electronic group just yet.


We are beings from the same planet.

I too scoured the earth for a used F150SC pickup with those same features, including manually adjustable seats, and we found one about 2 years ago so I dumped the E320 my wife drove and she drives the truck, couldn't be happier. Then last year I bought a like new 1972 Chrysler Newport and slapped on a paint job (only weak point on the car) sold the Acura and I drive that most of the time. I had cars with all the gadgets, like a 04 Acura RL, a 98 MBZ E320 wagon, and a 90 Ford Aerostar. All of those vehicles had electronic gremlins that cost a bunch of money during the time I owned them; the cars I drive now with their simplicity are cheap to operate, so far I've had no cost in repairs, and any repairs that should come up I can handle it myself without scratching my head over electronics...well except the PK is new enough to still use computers but at least the electrical stuff is mostly gone. 

I have a few other older vintage cars, one I've had for 35 years and the thing, as well as the others, just run and run. The older cars may have electric windows but the motors, and the window guides, and the wiring harness to the motors and switches, and the switches themselves are made a lot more robust then today's plastic switches and tiny motors with flimsy aluminum or plastic window guides and pulley gears are crap. My oldest car is 58 years old and all the stuff still works, try that with any of the cars made in the last 25 years.

So, I Like you, I'm not quite ready for electronic shifting either...but I guess I'm and extremist too.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

froze said:


> Actually you're an extremist!! Broken spokes, chains are not even remotely related to electronic or manual shifting, and relate bicycle electronic or manual shifting with a car...how in the hell did you equate those bits of nonsense?.....................................................with electro systems you have none except your cell phone so you can call your mommy because your $7,000 bike failed while she wonder why people riding far less expensive bikes keep riding.
> !




Hey, relax man....they don't have the emoticon smilie that I intended. 'Twas just teasin' cuz he said he feared the electronics. 

Buuut, if you read my line, it said "There's mechanical parts that could end your ride, too...not to mention broken spokes and chains." That doesn't mean that spokes and chains are either mechanical or electrical, just that they ALSO can end your ride, i.e., in ADDITION to. Same idea with the car. We just have different thought patterns, I guess. In fact, I'm a Shimano guy, LOL, not even sure why I'm in the Campy forum.

And my mom turned 83 today, but she saw the Di2 in action and thought it was "very nice!" 

Anyway, you know more than I do....seriously....so I relent.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Erion929 said:


> Hey, relax man....they don't have the emoticon smilie that I intended. 'Twas just teasin' cuz he said he feared the electronics.
> 
> Buuut, if you read my line, it said "There's mechanical parts that could end your ride, too...not to mention broken spokes and chains." That doesn't mean that spokes and chains are either mechanical or electrical, just that they ALSO can end your ride, i.e., in ADDITION to. Same idea with the car. We just have different thought patterns, I guess. In fact, I'm a Shimano guy, LOL, not even sure why I'm in the Campy forum.
> 
> ...


My emoticon smile thingy doesn't work for some odd reason, and besides I said "HEHEHE, just raggin' on ya man!!!" ! 

Congrats on your mom turning 83, my mom has no interest in my cycling, so I called your mom up and she agreed to adopt me...brother!

And remember, "I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"! Now say that statement in quotes 10 times real fast.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"

"I don't even want to hear about boats, spokes, chains, frames, trains, planes or automobiles in this discussion"


SEE HOW GOOD ELECTRONIC TECHNOLOGY IS THESE DAYS ?

Anyway, we'll see how the Di2 wars play out, hopefully the prices will come down from atmospheric levels to something many can do if they choose. Ulttegra Di2, at a "plus $1600" should drop as supplies build up and sales become mainstream.

**


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I, for one, am looking forward to the roll out. 
My guess is that we'll get a Super Record level EPS now, with funky CULT bearings in the jockey wheels, composites all over the place and all that. Maybe next year we'll get Chorus level, with a bit more weight and a lower price.

I will not be in the market until I can buy an electric gearing specific _Celeste_ frame. For 2012 Bianchi for some reason only offers such frames in modern black on black with only small hints of the true color. That will not do.


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## skleins (May 19, 2010)

*Buy wait*

But dont stand still for too long...........Will the game move on.......Yet Again!?!?!?! 

Shimano Dura-Ace Di2: 11-speed And Disc Brakes For 2013? - BikeRadar


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Shimano. is. not. interesting. at. all.

At least not in this thread.


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## Nielly (Sep 21, 2009)

Any bets on whether Shimano makes their 11 speed compatible (i.e.cog spacing) with Campagnolo?


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## Trevor Ash (May 19, 2005)

I hope in about 5 years it lowers the price of today's groups faster than the current 5 year old groups have dropped. I'm always about 5 years behind in technology on all my bikes because I'm a cheap bastard


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Personally I think the industry will embrace the multi speed rear axle that's already out, but they will make it a lot lighter in weight, have 10 or more gears, and be more reliable. And probably combine it with a 2 or 3 speed gear rings in the front. And with the assuredness of fast positive cable shifts these units can do there will be no need for expensive wireless shifting. The only drawback to those, which is the same with the Di stuff, is inability to repair it on the road should something go wacky; knowing that, I doubt seriously if the touring crowd would embrace it, but those people represent a fraction of all bicycle buyers so that would be no big deal.

So I would be surprised if this expensive electro shifting will take off with internal geared hubs looming in the background. It will only take one company to devise a lighter weight, a couple more gears, and more reliable unit and derailleurs as we know it will be gone on new bikes.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Cyclin Dan said:


> My fear with this electronic stuff, be it Di2, Campy, SRAM, whoever...is what do you do in the event that it quits working? *There is no way you, or anyone else for that matter, are going to fix this roadside and continue riding.* It is going to require getting SAG, ending the ride, and waiting while someone troubleshoots it and orders an expensive and tough to find part.
> 
> Mechanical is for me.


Same thing happens if you fall on the rear derailleur...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> Same thing happens if you fall on the rear derailleur...


Incorrect, read my earlier post #14. There is more possibilities of an electronic derailleur having a problem that will strand you; with a mechanical derailleur there is almost always a fix around. A fall on a derailleur is a stupid comparison, any derailleur could break, electronic or not. But I haven't ever in 40+ plus years of riding broke a derailleur, so I would safely assume many of you haven't either.

The other thing is that wireless sending units have not fared well with cycle computers, I had two wireless computers (Cateye and VDO) and neither lasted more then 3 years. It makes me wonder how long these Di type of senders will last? And when it quits so does your shifting.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

*No Show*

Sorry to sound like a party pooper but I just read a report the the electronic is a no show for 2012 in a french mag.

How true is that i do not know but the report is from the mag "l'Acheteur Cycliste"

So keep the hard earned $£€ and ride SR!


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

froze said:


> Incorrect, read my earlier post #14. There is more possibilities of an electronic derailleur having a problem that will strand you; with a mechanical derailleur there is almost always a fix around. A fall on a derailleur is a stupid comparison, any derailleur could break, electronic or not. But I haven't ever in 40+ plus years of riding broke a derailleur, so I would safely assume many of you haven't either.


I didn't say BREAK a derailleur; I just said FALL on it. So, why do many manufacturers build their bikes with replaceable derailleur hangers?



froze said:


> The other thing is that wireless sending units have not fared well with cycle computers, I had two wireless computers (Cateye and VDO) and neither lasted more then 3 years. It makes me wonder how long these Di type of senders will last? And when it quits so does your shifting.


It's not wireless...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> I didn't say BREAK a derailleur; I just said FALL on it. So, why do many manufacturers build their bikes with replaceable derailleur hangers?
> 
> It's not wireless...



I'm sorry, it appears I didn't understand you. So are you saying if someone falls on the derailleur and doesn't break the derailleur but does break the hanger? If that is what you're saying, how would that incident, or an incident where the falling resulted in a broken hanger or even the derailleur, either way, effect either a electronic derailleur vs a mechanical? Either way you're screwed as far as I can tell. Maybe you can explain how that incident would differ from a electronic vs a mechanical derailleur hanger, or just the derailleur by itself, or both? 

That's why none of my bikes have aluminum dropouts to prevent an isolated situation with a broken hanger.

The wireless thing is my bad, I thought I read they were coming out with wireless system, obviously they haven't yet...maybe I was looking into the future?!


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

My point was just that there are events that can cripple a manual derailleur system. It sounded like you were saying that manual systems were just fine and completely bulletproof as they were, but electronic systems opened the door to all sorts of failures. The truth is that servomotors have been around since WW2, or earlier depending upon your definition. It is a well-established technology. At the plant where I'm doing my expatriate assignment, we have tons of them. They run 24/7/365 for 18 months to 2 years before the systems are rebuilt and the motors are replaced. It could be that the hardest part is keeping dirt and water out of the connections and not the moving-the-derailleur part. There's nothing mysterious about these systems.

And...
I don't want to hear about battery failure. If you can keep your cell phone charged, then what's your problem? If you can't keep your phone charged, then maybe cell phones and electronic shifting systems may not be for you.

Right now, wireless would be an unnecessary complication. There is a price premium for the electronic systems, as you would expect. Adding the expense of senders and receivers wouldn't make much sense. Going back to industrial applications, the RIA (Robotics Industries Association) recently approved wireless links from the Teach Pendant to the Robot Controller. Basically the Teach Pendant is the device that a programmer uses to take the robot slowly through the desired steps and positions. Often this involves standing in very close proximity to the robot. Industrial robots (larger ones) have enough power to knock you on you +++ or crush you (literally). If they didn't have confidence in being able to communicate without interference, they wouldn't approve the technology. Anyway, again, the technology is out there. I think the problem comes in because we, cyclists, keep crying about price. Maybe senders that are 'way outside of normal radio frequencies are more expensive. Maybe the frequency band and power are in a range where the FCC gets involved. I don't know, but I would bet that the compromises almost always relate to price. As large as the bike industry is, I don't think it is large enough to drive technology like carbon fiber manufacture, servomotor technology, etc. What the industry does is apply existing technologies to bicycle applications. Simple as that.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Again your not comparing apples to apples.

Yes you're going to hear about a battery failure because that is an event that will be one of the major contributing factors of failure with the system; you can't bury your head in the sand because you don't want to hear about that; that's like saying, you don't want to discuss a possibility of a car failing to start because the battery died...IT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS FOR A CAR NOT STARTING!! A cell phone is not the same. I understand the concept of what you're saying about whether or not a person can keep it charged or not, and that standing by itself is true. However if a person fails to charge up their phone, or the battery, as batteries do, loses its ability to hold a charge you can't make a call...but you're not stranded on a road as you would be should the battery fail for whatever reason, while riding.

I also never said nor hinted that mechanical systems were bulletproof, I even mentioned events in my posts where a mechanical system could fail and leave you stranded, but those same events that would effect a mechanical system WOULD ALSO effect the electronic system. I was explaining about the fact that there are separate events that are unique to a electronic system and would add more of a likely hood, or risk, of a failure that could strand a rider who be unable to have a roadside fix available vs a mechanical system that with most failures you could manage a roadside repair to one degree or another.

Your last paragraph is unrelated since there won't be a wireless system, but since you went there here we go. I'll keep this short. There are hundreds of posts on forums such as this one where riders have had issues with their wireless computers, INCLUDING interference, and sending unit failures, and...oh no-close your eyes...battery failure. So don't go there. Yes the technology is out there, but a robot or military application is not the same as a consumer pedaling a bicycle, thus we the consumer, would get a system far inferior to the to those others. Personally I think if a person has the money to throw down $4,000 on a group for a bicycle, wouldn't even bat an eye throwing down another $250 for wireless!!!! So that reasoning of yours made no sense. I doubt though that a wireless sending feature would cost that much anyway since they don't jack up the price of a wireless computer more then $30.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

froze said:


> Again your not comparing apples to apples.
> 
> Yes you're going to hear about a battery failure because that is an event that will be one of the major contributing factors of failure with the system; you can't bury your head in the sand because you don't want to hear about that; that's like saying, you don't want to discuss a possibility of a car failing to start because the battery died...IT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS FOR A CAR NOT STARTING!! A cell phone is not the same. I understand the concept of what you're saying about whether or not a person can keep it charged or not, and that standing by itself is true. However if a person fails to charge up their phone, or the battery, as batteries do, loses its ability to hold a charge you can't make a call...but you're not stranded on a road as you would be should the battery fail for whatever reason, while riding.


There are indicators that tell you the state of charge. It's not like you are flying blind. Not comparing apples to apples? An automotive battery is NOTHING like the batteries that power e-shift systems. It's Lead Acid technology versus Lithium Ion; entirely different chemistries and behaviors. It is much closer to what you expect from a cell phone as opposed to a car.



froze said:


> I was explaining about the fact that there are separate events that are unique to a electronic system and would add more of a likely hood, or risk, of a failure that could strand a rider who be unable to have a roadside fix available vs a mechanical system that with most failures you could manage a roadside repair to one degree or another.


I doubt that. As time goes on, it seems that fewer and fewer people know which end of a screwdriver to use.



froze said:


> Your last paragraph is unrelated since there won't be a wireless system, but since you went there here we go.I'll keep this short. There are hundreds of posts on forums such as this one where riders have had issues with their wireless computers, INCLUDING interference, and sending unit failures, and...oh no-close your eyes...battery failure.


No, I explained why it's possible (the technology exists and is bulletproof) and why we are not likely to see a wireless e-shift system (cost delta). And, it's not about having or not having the money to spend. It's about if the value makes sense. Even rich people make value judgments. There are lots of people who could afford neckties for $500, but how many actually buy them?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> There are indicators that tell you the state of charge. It's not like you are flying blind. Not comparing apples to apples? An automotive battery is NOTHING like the batteries that power e-shift systems. It's Lead Acid technology versus Lithium Ion; entirely different chemistries and behaviors. It is much closer to what you expect from a cell phone as opposed to a car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are indicators that a laptop computer battery is going dead too, what's the point? They still go dead, while traveling too, just as a battery would on a bike. It's great there is a warning, and for the person who doesn't stray far from home or ride into remote areas that would be fine. But as a battery ages (2 to 4 years out), the indicator may show a max charge, then within a very short time that indicator can drop fast. I've seen this with many battery powered objects and so have you. So you'll have to buy another battery...a maintenance problem not found with mechanical by the way.

I agree, America has turned into a bunch of non mechanical people who don't have a clue what the difference is between a bladed and a Phillips screwdriver is! But, that doesn't mean a cyclist should be taking the risk riding without some sort of knowledge on minor repair of their bikes and the tools needed to do said repairs. But I've seen guys riding expensive bikes who didn't have a clue as to how to repair a flat not alone repair a mechanical issue. And this seems to be more prevalent today. Thankfully they have cell phones they can use to call their mommies to come rescue them.

Some wealthy people do make value judgments, but some don't especially when it come to hobbies. If you use that argument then my argument of buying less expensive mechanical groups would make more sense for the wealthy person making a value judgment then spending another $1500 for the electronic system; thus if a wealthy person is not making a value judgment to make the leap to the electronic system then another $250 (probably less) would not suddenly make the wealthy person stop and reconsider their purchase. So again I disagree with that.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

froze said:


> There are indicators that a laptop computer battery is going dead too, what's the point? They still go dead, while traveling too, just as a battery would on a bike. It's great there is a warning, and for the person who doesn't stray far from home or ride into remote areas that would be fine. But as a battery ages (2 to 4 years out), the indicator may show a max charge, then within a very short time that indicator can drop fast. I've seen this with many battery powered objects and so have you. So you'll have to buy another battery...a maintenance problem not found with mechanical by the way.


You know, if it bothers you that much, the Dura-Ace Di2 battery is 71g (less than 3oz) and $95 at R & A Cycles. A spare charger is $10. Since we don't have Campagnolo prices to work with, I'm guessing that Shimano Di2 prices are in the same ball park. There are strategies for preventing or dealing with any problem that mention. None of them really amount to a reason to dismiss e-shifting outright.



froze said:


> Thankfully they have cell phones they can use to call their mommies to come rescue them.


Depends. Are they charged up or not?


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

flatlander_48 said:


> Depends. Are they charged up or not?


:lol:


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

I certainly would not see lack of reliability as a reason to not use electronic shifting. I happen to like the way mechanical shifting feels and sounds, particularly Campagnolo 11 speed. I'm betting that Campy electronic won't feel that much different than Shimano D12.

Based on the total lack of any feel at all with Shimano Di2, as well as the whirring electric motor noise, I just don't have an interest in electronic shifting. Are there others who simply prefer the way Campy 11s shifts, feels, sounds, and well, yes, looks?


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

My guess would be that being able to feel the system working when shifting will never happen. You can design in a feel to the switch (for example, some computer keyboards feel differently from others) that activates the shifting, but it would only be the feel of the switch and not the shift mechanism.


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

My point exactly, and why I have no interest in electronic shifting. I spend enough time on a keyboard; that's not how I want my bicycles to feel when I shift.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

tommyturbo said:


> Are there others who simply prefer the way Campy 11s shifts, feels, sounds, and well, yes, looks?


Love mine and wouldn't trade it for anything! Well, maybe Campy Electric  just kidding. The SR11 does the trick for me.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> You know, if it bothers you that much, the Dura-Ace Di2 battery is 71g (less than 3oz) and $95 at R & A Cycles. A spare charger is $10. Since we don't have Campagnolo prices to work with, I'm guessing that Shimano Di2 prices are in the same ball park. There are strategies for preventing or dealing with any problem that mention. None of them really amount to a reason to dismiss e-shifting outright.
> 
> Depends. Are they charged up or not?


I'm not dismissing e-shifting personally...I'm just not accepting it personally!!

It's great to hear you can buy an extra battery, just make sure you carry it with you on rides in case the main one dies, that will take care of all the worries.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

froze said:


> I'm not dismissing e-shifting personally...I'm just not accepting it personally!!
> 
> It's great to hear you can buy an extra battery, just make sure you carry it with you on rides in case the main one dies, that will take care of all the worries.


We get it, you're not down with electronics but I'd prefer to read ABOUT the Campy product as opposed to your incessant whining...:mad2: What are you doing in this thread other than telling everybody else how opposed they should be to this technology?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Scary said:


> We get it, you're not down with electronics but I'd prefer to read ABOUT the Campy product as opposed to your incessant whining...:mad2: What are you doing in this thread other than telling everybody else how opposed they should be to this technology?


I'm here to watch you beat your head on a brick wall, why else? 

I'm really here to show you the folly of such equipment that leads to higher product cost, unreliability and higher repair cost. It's up to you if want that kind of stuff. Bicycles original intentions was to be a inexpensive, practical, low technology, easy to repair, highly reliable form of transportation...we're getting away from that.

And besides, if FLATLINER48 hadn't asked all the questions and rebuttals you would not had heard all the "whining" from me, so thank him for all my posts on this subject because if it were not for him I would have only posted one post about it. So go beat your head about that.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

froze said:


> Bicycles original intentions was to be a inexpensive, practical, low technology, easy to repair, highly reliable form of transportation...we're getting away from that.
> 
> .


That's a commuter bike, they are still produced. Electronic shifting is race level, just as F1 is race level. It's not necessary but some people enjoy it.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Scary said:


> That's a commuter bike, they are still produced. Electronic shifting is race level, just as F1 is race level. It's not necessary but some people enjoy it.


If that's true and bike on the race level do not have to be practical then why isn't UCI lowering the minimum weight limit way below 14.999 pounds? Today's technology should be able to make a reliable race frame easily at 13 pounds, so they should lower the weight to 12.999. The reason they leave the weight at 14.999 pounds is so that lower funded race teams from countries that don't have the money can afford to get into pro racing and contend with wealthier nations and sponsors...a $4000 group kind of upsets that whole idea doesn't it?

Just a thought.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

froze said:


> I'm here to watch you beat your head on a brick wall, why else?
> 
> I'm really here to show you the folly of such equipment that leads to higher product cost, unreliability and higher repair cost. It's up to you if want that kind of stuff. Bicycles original intentions was to be a inexpensive, practical, low technology, easy to repair, highly reliable form of transportation...we're getting away from that.


Originally there were no cell phones and laptops and hybrid cars. Step into the current century, why don't you? There's nothing that says that you must adopt a particular technology. You vote with your dollars, but it is only YOUR vote. There isn't any reason for you to attempt to dissuade anyone else from considering an e-shift system. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean anything.



froze said:


> And besides, if FLATLINER48 hadn't asked all the questions and rebuttals you would not had heard all the "whining" from me, so thank him for all my posts on this subject because if it were not for him I would have only posted one post about it. So go beat your head about that.


It will pay you to keep a civil tongue in your head.

The reason I challenged what you said was that it was B/S. The fact that you chose to prolong the agony by continuing to spout B/S is not my fault. Personally, if you don't have anything constructive to add to the conversation, why are you here? You know, a little bit of research goes a long way...


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

froze said:


> If that's true and bike on the race level do not have to be practical then why isn't UCI lowering the minimum weight limit way below 14.999 pounds? Today's technology should be able to make a reliable race frame easily at 13 pounds, so they should lower the weight to 12.999. The reason they leave the weight at 14.999 pounds is so that lower funded race teams from countries that don't have the money can afford to get into pro racing and contend with wealthier nations and sponsors...a $4000 group kind of upsets that whole idea doesn't it?
> 
> Just a thought.


Basically irrelevant. UCI set the weight limit because they didn't want someone to compromise safety and reliability in order to reduce weight. However, the technology that is in place now (high modulus carbon fibers, boron fibers, etc.) was not being used when the regulation was put in place.

You know, one of the benefits of e-shift systems is that they are more accurate in how they shift: no cable stretch, no friction between cable and jacket, etc. So, if they are much more consistent, how much do you think Andy Schleck would have given a couple of years ago to not have his chain fall off at the TdF? Makes the price you mention small, doesn't it?

And I doubt if they are keeping the weight limit up so that poor countries can compete. Specifically which countries would those be?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

flatlander_48 said:


> Basically irrelevant. UCI set the weight limit because they didn't want someone to compromise safety and reliability in order to reduce weight. However, the technology that is in place now (high modulus carbon fibers, boron fibers, etc.) was not being used when the regulation was put in place.
> 
> You know, one of the benefits of e-shift systems is that they are more accurate in how they shift: no cable stretch, no friction between cable and jacket, etc. So, if they are much more consistent, how much do you think Andy Schleck would have given a couple of years ago to not have his chain fall off at the TdF? Makes the price you mention small, doesn't it?
> 
> And I doubt if they are keeping the weight limit up so that poor countries can compete. Specifically which countries would those be?


There's little point in arguing with Froze, he knows more than everybody. Just like Cliff Claven, exactly like Cliff Claven...

I only hope for his mental sake that his arguing has convinced both Shimano and Campy to abandon their development, and has further dissuaded SRAM from even considering a foray into electronics.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> You know, one of the benefits of e-shift systems is that they are more accurate in how they shift: no cable stretch, no friction between cable and jacket, etc. So, if they are much more consistent, how much do you think Andy Schleck would have given a couple of years ago to not have his chain fall off at the TdF? Makes the price you mention small, doesn't it?


Basically all of what you said in our many boring pickering posts back and forth is as much BS as this paragraph you wrote above. What would have happened if Schleck's chain not fallen off...the same damn thing that would have happened if a electronic shifting system failed...he would have lost speculation of winning. And that's all you're doing is speculating on BS, because even if his chain hadn't fallen off wouldn't necessarily meant he would have won the tour.

But, I actually do agree with one thing you said in the above paragraph!!! Are you sitting down, because the shock of what I'm about to agree with you on could cause a fatal heart attack! Drum roll please!! That statement is: "one of the benefits of e-shift systems is that they are more accurate in how they shift: no cable stretch, no friction between cable and jacket, etc." There, I said it, I actually agreed with you on something, I hope you're still alive and no emergency action needed to be taken on you.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

FWIW, Schleck drops his chain because he's cross chaining. Electronic or manual, make your front ring shifts from near the middle of the cassette, eh? I hope Frandy does not ride on Campy, but even if they did, they can still drop their chain shifting that way. 



willieboy said:


> Love mine and wouldn't trade it for anything! Well, maybe Campy Electric  just kidding. The SR11 does the trick for me.


After a few seasons on Record 11, I'm just not motivated to go electric. I can see how it would be needed on Shimano, LOL. As I've said in other threads, I can see it being useful on a TT bike to have 2 shifting locations, but when I corner, I shift back a gear and when I'm climbing, I'm already in the lowest gear, which is why I'm out of the aero bars.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

He managed to drop his chain on DI2 also....


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Salsa_Lover said:


> He managed to drop his chain on DI2 also....


Nothing is perfect...


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> There's little point in arguing with Froze, he knows more than everybody. Just like Cliff Claven, exactly like Cliff Claven...
> 
> I only hope for his mental sake that his arguing has convinced both Shimano and Campy to abandon their development, and has further dissuaded SRAM from even considering a foray into electronics.


I'm beginning to think that he rides Shimano...


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## Tom Sneakers (Oct 14, 2011)

I read all these posts about these electronic shifters, and went on the internet reading more about them. I came to a conclusion, strictly of my own opinion to appease the cry babies who will start whining about that I'm forcing my opinions on others....funny, I thought that's what these forums were for, to express opinions! and then the babies cry out that so and so was forcing their opinions...no they weren't, they were expressing their opinion; but I digress. 

I have to agree with the ones that are posting the negatives overall, I understand there are some positives and agree with those, but to pay $1500 more then a top of the line mechanical group and only get minor advantages in some areas and major disadvantages in other areas just makes no sense to me. One problem I thought of that no one has mentioned is what happens when the battery freezes due to being too cold? That's correct, it won't work. I have Dura Ace on my Y-Foil and couldn't want for a different system that cost $1500 more. I happen to wrench my own rides, and I like the fact I can repair my stuff at home or on the road should the need arise; but to buy a group for $1500 more and then not be able to fix it on the road and maybe not even at home is a big huge turnoff for me. And to say stuff like, well my electronic system hasn't burped in 2 years...2 years? That's not a test of time for a group set! When you had that electronic group for 10 or more years without a burp then that's a good test of time, then come back and bring that up! By then we'll all know anyway the advantages and disadvantages of electronic shifting. 

And on that subject, why has no one brought up the fact that this attempt at marketing electronic shifting is not the first attempt...Mavic tried and failed to do this with their Mektronic system and this system was more advance then the ones today because if I recall they were wireless. And the Mavic system used cheap dime store batteries that one could easily carry spares in a saddle bag; and this unit also still allowed shifting even if the bats died something the new ones don't allow. The Mavic system actually worked quite well except for occasional transmission problems that plaque wireless computers for years. But had Mavic stayed with it they could have worked out those bugs and been the leader in that arena.

But that is my opinion and as others have said, to each their own. I'm a hit and miss, I don't have the patience to sit here and rebuttal and rebuttal and rebuttal as some you do, I don't know how you guys do that or why, it's a waste of time.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Tom Sneakers said:


> <snip>
> And on that subject, why has no one brought up the fact that this attempt at marketing electronic shifting is not the first attempt...Mavic tried and failed to do this with their Mektronic system and this system was more advance then the ones today because if I recall they were wireless.
> <snip>


Wireless does not necessarily mean more advanced. In fact, it could be that it's an unnecessary complication. Not that the entire idea of electronic shifting is defensible only by the fact that the newer ones are not wireless.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Tom Sneakers said:


> But that is my opinion and as others have said, to each their own. I'm a hit and miss, I don't have the patience to sit here and rebuttal and rebuttal and rebuttal as some you do, I don't know how you guys do that or why, it's a waste of time.


I guess I'm cursed with LBSTS (Low B/S Tolerance Syndrome).

Yes, someone did mention the Mavic system earlier, but only in passing I think.

I don't think wireless would be helpful, and as just mentioned, it would be an unnecessary complication. You would trade the weight of some wiring for the weight of 2 Senders and 2 Receivers, plus a bit of reduced battery life. Doesn't seem like a good trade.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

froze said:


> It was on line as an estimate in US dollars based on being at least $1500 more then the Record group; see: Campy Only's Predictions for the 2005 Campagnolo Lineup. Then just look up the cost of the Record group and that's how I came up with that number. There also saying that estimate could be on the low side!!


So a rumour posted on Campyonly's site from almost 7 years ago is what you base your opinion on? Do me a favour!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> So a rumour posted on Campyonly's site from almost 7 years ago is what you base your opinion on? Do me a favour!


Why are you acting like such little B....? Campy hasn't release the final cost yet, that estimate is the only one available so far. But if Dura Ace DI2 group cost $4,600, and regular Dura Ace cost $2,900 which is about a difference of $1600...where in the hell you think Campy will be priced over regular Record? 

cbike.com - Assos, Colnago, Campagnolo, Fulcrum, Tacx and more - Shimano
Do ME a favor!


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Check your numbers...

$4,600 - $2,600 = $2,000


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> Check your numbers...
> 
> $4,600 - $2,600 = $2,000


Thanks for the correction, so the difference is more then even I thought


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

No campy electronic for the masses for a while>>> first you'll have to buy a Pinarello, then you could get Campy electronic. Than you will be able to resell the frame etc, keep the group and build your own bike........that sucks


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

FrenchNago said:


> No campy electronic for the masses for a while>>> first you'll have to buy a Pinarello, then you could get Campy electronic. Than you will be able to resell the frame etc, keep the group and build your own bike........that sucks


If you can afford to buy a Pinarello with the Campy Electronics then why sell the Pinarello? those are great bikes. You're not going to get the retail cost you paid for the frame by reselling it so you're going to take a loss, just to have the electronics, this makes no sense to me.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

What's worse: The Bianchi frame would have to be black.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

IMHO: pinarello's are pieces of wood, but i'm partial being a colnago person


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

FrenchNago said:


> IMHO: pinarello's are pieces of wood, but i'm partial being a colnago person


I believe my LBS in Taichung, Taiwan is the #1 (or very close to it) Colnago dealer on the island. Ernesto was in country several months ago and made a particular visit to the shop and autographed bikes and posters. He had an entourage of 3, I believe.

However, my guy also sells Pinarello, DeRosa, Cinelli, Garneau and Gios. Definitely no cheap stuff here...


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

flatlander_48 said:


> I believe my LBS in Taichung, Taiwan is the #1 (or very close to it) Colnago dealer on the island. Ernesto was in country several months ago and made a particular visit to the shop and autographed bikes and posters. He had an entourage of 3, I believe.
> 
> However, my guy also sells Pinarello, DeRosa, Cinelli, Garneau and Gios. Definitely no cheap stuff here...


I never said it was cheap, just a question of feeling.....I've riden quite a few Pina's and always found them a bit harsher than the nag's with the same wheels.

Aso have a heartbeat for the aethetics of an Idol(De Rosa)...


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Personally, I have no basis for comparison as I haven't ridden any of them. It seems that work and that old Hawaiian disease, lakamuny, have a great influence over any fun times that I might have...


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## MRFIXALL4 (May 19, 2003)

Just so it's understood I'm not trying to talk crap about Campy, I am a Campy only guy. I use to use Shimano until I went Campy and I never looked back. But, Let me use the Ergobrain vs the Flightdeck as a comparison. The Flightdeck was great and I actually had two of them I liked them so much. When I went Campy 9 I had nothing but trouble with the Ergobrain with wires and bad contacts. Almost every ride some part of the system didn't work. It's now still in a bag in my junk collection. As of now I have no faith in Campy's electronic knowledge and I think they put this out only to compete against Shimano's Di2. I ride with a guy who has the Di2 system and it is always churping and missing shifts. There is nothing wrong with mechanical, afterall it's only a bicycle. Save the geekyness for other gadgets.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

MRFIXALL4 said:


> Just so it's understood I'm not trying to talk crap about Campy, I am a Campy only guy. I use to use Shimano until I went Campy and I never looked back. But, Let me use the Ergobrain vs the Flightdeck as a comparison. The Flightdeck was great and I actually had two of them I liked them so much. When I went Campy 9 I had nothing but trouble with the Ergobrain with wires and bad contacts. Almost every ride some part of the system didn't work. It's now still in a bag in my junk collection. As of now I have no faith in Campy's electronic knowledge and I think they put this out only to compete against Shimano's Di2. I ride with a guy who has the Di2 system and it is always churping and missing shifts. There is nothing wrong with mechanical, afterall it's only a bicycle. Save the geekyness for other gadgets.


I agree, by the way I do have a bike with the 2006 Campy Athena group on it, I chose that group because it can be repaired instead of having to buy a new component. But I digest,..anywho, I can't figure out either why all the electronic fasination, not just bicycles but even cars. I heard of a lot of problems with the Ergobrain, but I also heard of problems with the FlightDeck that you had no problems with. But why do we need a FlightDeck kind of thing that a regular bike computer already does? So you can see what gear and ratio you're in? I've never had a problem with wanting to know that info in 40+ years of riding, including 10 years of racing, and pros for many more then I was riding never cared either. Call me odd.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

froze said:


> I agree, by the way I do have a bike with the 2006 Campy Athena group on it, I chose that group because it can be repaired instead of having to buy a new component. But I digest,..anywho, I can't figure out either why all the electronic fasination, not just bicycles but even cars. I heard of a lot of problems with the Ergobrain, but I also heard of problems with the FlightDeck that you had no problems with. But why do we need a FlightDeck kind of thing that a regular bike computer already does? So you can see what gear and ratio you're in? I've never had a problem with wanting to know that info in 40+ years of riding, including 10 years of racing, and pros for many more then I was riding never cared either. Call me odd.


You're odd.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Scary said:


> You're odd.


Thanks for noticing!!


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

froze said:


> Thanks for noticing!!


Didn't have to. The assumption worked just as well...

Anyway, I have had a 10sp ErgoBrain since 2005. It has worked fine, with one exception. When on the big ring, it tends not to know where you are towards the small end of the cluster. It just doesn't display anything.

As I understand, the ErgoBrain is built by CatEye. How much Campagnolo contributed to the hardware and programming, I don't know. I know the menu system is quite arcane, but I assume that has to do with trying to pack a lot of functions into a device with a limited number of interface points.

Personally, I like the fact that the gears are displayed. I try to ride to work once or twice a week. Here in Taiwan I am often in traffic; sometimes heavy traffic. From a time standpoint, it's OK to look down at your crank. However, you REALLY don't want to take the time to look down and back to see your cluster. Too much stuff happens too quickly in front of you.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> Didn't have to. The assumption worked just as well...
> 
> .


Then in that case, thanks for being an ass.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

Sure. Note that it is just a reflection of what I encounter.

By the way, have you shared your thoughts on this topic with the Shimano crowd? I'm sure they would be interested to hear.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> Sure. Note that it is just a reflection of what I encounter.


At least you admit you're a reflection of an ass, most people that are asses can't get to that point. So now go get a colonoscopy and call me in morning.


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

i'm still mad that camera's went digital and now rely on batteries! i mean, what if i'm taking a picture and the battery goes out? what am i gonna do? i know they have spare batteries and a charge will usually last you 15,000 shutter actuations, but what if the battery runs out and i wasn't checking the battery meter? how am i going to take a picture! i think we should all go back to film cameras that didn't require a battery. and while were're at it, a battery starter on a car just plain sucks! i miss the days when you just turned the big crank at the front of the car to start it...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

r_mutt said:


> i'm still mad that camera's went digital and now rely on batteries! i mean, what if i'm taking a picture and the battery goes out? what am i gonna do? i know they have spare batteries and a charge will usually last you 15,000 shutter actuations, but what if the battery runs out and i wasn't checking the battery meter? how am i going to take a picture! i think we should all go back to film cameras that didn't require a battery. and while were're at it, a battery starter on a car just plain sucks! i miss the days when you just turned the big crank at the front of the car to start it...


HAHAHA, I know you're being funny, but you did get on to something about cameras. I can't understand is how an all electronic camera burns through batteries far faster then the old 35mm cameras that still used computer chip for monitoring shutter speed and aperture, plus lighting, then supply juice to the shutter which was mechanical then supply more juice to advance the film mechanically and eventually rewind the film. The even older cameras all the battery did was to operate the light meter. But the old 35mm cameras the battery would last an average person about a year, the new digitals you will burn through a set or two on just Christmas day.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Tom Sneakers said:


> One problem I thought of that no one has mentioned is what happens when the battery freezes due to being too cold? That's correct, it won't work.


Lots of Euro cyclocrossers use them in the winter with no problem. Not sure if bikes should have sub-freezing ridability as a prime focus anyway.


> no one brought up the fact that this attempt at marketing electronic shifting is not the first attempt...Mavic...


Nobody brought up the Mavic system? SRSLY????


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

froze said:


> At least you admit you're a reflection of an ass, most people that are asses can't get to that point. So now go get a colonoscopy and call me in morning.


Sure. At the same point in time that you choose to discuss and give up the mindless rants. Personally, I don't think that I am in any danger...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

flatlander_48 said:


> Sure. At the same point in time that you choose to discuss and give up the mindless rants. Personally, I don't think that I am in any danger...


So this "discussion" that you want to keep perpetuating with me is your idea of not being a mindless rant? I think personally you don't know just how much danger you're really in.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

One cannot fail to observe that froze and flatlander_48 in concert manage to create a lot of noise which is not beneficial to this thread...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

kbwh said:


> One cannot fail to observe that froze and flatlander_48 in concert manage to create a lot of noise which is not beneficial to this thread...


You are absolutely correct, we both are nothing but a lot of meaningless noise due to me being suckered in to Flatbrainer meaningless rants towards me, so I will not respond any further to him to avoid that.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

While I have no problem with opinions, I have a great aversion to opinions stated in such a way that we are expected to believe them as a function of who said it. This goes double for B/S that masquerades as opinion. There is an old axiom that states: "If you don't start none, there won't be none.". Sage advice...


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## Sven_Nijs (Jul 14, 2011)

Back on topic - today (7.11.11) is the day Campagnolo brief the worlds bike press on consumer EPS...


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

And while we wait:
I wonder what that Ergobrainesque button behind the thumb shifter is for:


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

kbwh said:


> And while we wait:
> I wonder what that Ergobrainesque button behind the thumb shifter is for:


Yes, it is reminiscent of the ErgoBrain button. However, there have been no hints at an upgraded ErgoBrain. It would make sense as they have not had an 11sp version; for either manual or e-shift...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

kbwh said:


> And while we wait:
> I wonder what that Ergobrainesque button behind the thumb shifter is for:


That's the ugliest hood color I've ever seen. It reminds me of a large grasshopper.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

The late Xavier Tondo of Team Movistar showing the importance of color coordination.


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## LePatron (Jan 5, 2011)

First pic's: Campa EPS 
Pretty cool that you can shift though 11 gears up or down.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

froze said:


> That's the ugliest hood color I've ever seen. It reminds me of a large grasshopper.


how about slime?:


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

LePatron said:


> First pic's: Campa EPS
> Pretty cool that you can shift though 11 gears up or down.


I'll keep my record classic thank you...whats with the canon? shoot the DA guys?


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Campagnolo Launch Electronic EPS Groups - BikeRadar
Yummy.

The "cannon" is the sleeve for the actuation screw, Nago. No need to shoot smelly Dura-Ass.


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

When will the Campagnolo EPS Super Record & Record group be available to the consumers?


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