# Saw the BMC 2012 Catalog



## carbonLORD

Impec with white lugs and Race Machine in black and White looked terrific!


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## ultraman6970

This makes me wonder why I did not warranty my frame by dec hahaha


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## tyro

Pictures?


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## carbonLORD

tyro said:


> Pictures?


Just a crappy iPhone pic, my bad...


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## tyro

Whoa! Now that is bad-a$$!!!


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## DiegoMontoya

That is a nice looking bike, actually. One thing I like is that BMC has good specs on these - Lightweight wheels, etc. 

Unfortunately, the price is prohibitively high, but they should provide at least some challenge to the Pinarello Dogma in the expensive bike market. I certainly would get a $10k BMC over a $10k Cannondale.

Not to rehash the old Time argument, but their problem is that you can buy a Time for less than that price, and the Time is handmade and comes with a lifetime warranty. Plus, the Time doesn't have a history of production issues.

That said, the Impec is good looking bike. I prefer the black/red or black/black though.


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## TheCrook

*Nice*

The 'shell concept' looks more flush with the frame, nice.

I was 100% sure that a 2012 team machine was on it. But this looks great.

Would like to see the team machine?


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## TheCrook

Just compared the 2012 impec, with 2011

Small changes resulting in a much better looking / faster looking bike.

Looks like it's been on a sports diet, and much closer to the team machine


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## hansonator69

I like it!


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## BMCUSA

DiegoMontoya - since you mention the price Time multiple times (I agree it is a great bike) - I found prices on the web:
RXRS Ulteam - frame Module: $5,500
Impec Frame: $5,500

RXRS Ulteam Di2 - frame Module: $6,100
Impec Frame: Di2 - Frame: $5,800

Just sharing informations.

Best regards,

BMC USA


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## DiegoMontoya

BMCUSA said:


> DiegoMontoya - since you mention the price Time multiple times (I agree it is a great bike) - I found prices on the web:
> RXRS Ulteam - frame Module: $5,500
> Impec Frame: $5,500
> 
> RXRS Ulteam Di2 - frame Module: $6,100
> Impec Frame: Di2 - Frame: $5,800
> 
> Just sharing informations.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> BMC USA


Not quite. Your prices are wrong. 

Time RXRS Ulteam Module: $4535. Here is the link to an actual shop in the US:

https://contenderbicycles.com/online-store/TIME-Road-Bike-Frames/TIME-RXRS-Ulteam-White-p47.html

Just for reference. Time is handmade and has a lifetime warranty. Impec is neither handmade nor, to my knowledge, does it have a lifetime warranty. Nothing against the Impec though, but the Time is a grand cheaper, handmade, and has a better warranty.

Oh, and that $6,100 for the Di2 refers to the VIP module. The regular Di2 module is $5,600. Here is a link to another shop.

Time-Sport USA RXRS Ulteam Di2 Module Bikes/Bicycles

Di2 version is again less expensive than the Impec. Likewise, nothing against the Impec itself, it looks to be a nice bike despite BMC's production issues, but it's just priced high, IMO and loses out in a comparison to Time.


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## haydos

I think BMC USA was comparing RRP's - not the street prices of bikes...


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## BMCUSA

I got the Time prices from Wrench Science web page - 
Time Sport Road Bikes, Bicycles & Frames | Time-Sport USA Dealer | RXRS Ulteam, RX Instinct


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## DiegoMontoya

BMCUSA said:


> I got the Time prices from Wrench Science web page -
> Time Sport Road Bikes, Bicycles & Frames | Time-Sport USA Dealer | RXRS Ulteam, RX Instinct


First off the first price I posted is a direct comparison with the Impec, since that price for the Time DOES NOT include the stem and bottle cage. Neither does the Impec. 

Also, that link you just posted shows your prices are wrong.

Follow that link and you'll see that Time with Di2 is $5,850 or so, not $6,100. 
The VIP module, which is more, also comes with stem and bars. Unless the Impec also comes with stem and bars, that's not the right comparison.

Using the WrenchScience link, here is the Time RXRS for $5,000. $500 cheaper than the Impec. Plus, that includes the stem and bottle cage.

Time-Sport USA RXRS Ulteam Module Bikes/Bicycles

Plus, as I said, Time has a lifetime warranty, and it's handmade by humans. Just wanted to keep this price comparison honest here.


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## DiegoMontoya

haydos said:


> I think BMC USA was comparing RRP's - not the street prices of bikes...


Those are RRPs. That first price was for the module that does not include the stem and cage. The Wrench Science prices include them.


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## MoPho

DiegoMontoya said:


> Plus, as I said, Time has a lifetime warranty, and it's handmade by humans. .



Given my experience with the automotive world, I am not sure handmade by humans is a good selling point. Robots build things with much tighter tolerances and more consistency










.


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## BMCUSA

DiegoMontoya - A Impec (frame or complete) includes the following:
Frame - Fork - Seat Post - Bike Bag (BMC branded) - bike stand - Impec branded bottle cages - water bottles (Impec/BMC branded) - Impec branded tool kit - Chain Protector (BMC branded) and the Impec has lifetime warranty and finally an Impec book with pictures of the factory, production and thoughts behind the Impec. Does Time includes the above items?

and just for the fun of it - a Pinarello Dogma Di2 frame - please add $750 - when you compare the same Dogma/frame to the mechanical option.

Best regards,

BMC USA


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## DiegoMontoya

BMCUSA said:


> DiegoMontoya - A Impec (frame or complete) includes the following:
> Frame - Fork - Seat Post - Bike Bag (BMC branded) - bike stand - Impec branded bottle cages - water bottles (Impec/BMC branded) - Impec branded tool kit - Chain Protector (BMC branded) and the Impec has lifetime warranty and finally an Impec book with pictures of the factory, production and thoughts behind the Impec. Does Time includes the above items?
> 
> and just for the fun of it - a Pinarello Dogma Di2 frame - please add $750 - when you compare the same Dogma/frame to the mechanical option.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> BMC USA


Thanks for the info. Much appreciated. The Time stem does cost more than all the other things BMC throws in like a bike bag (??), etc. and still the handmade Time is about $500 less.

However, I do like the fact that the Impec has a lifetime warranty. Kudos to BMC. Price these at $4,250 and you have a winner, IMO. Problem is, I think people will hesitate to get an Impec for $5,500 knowing they'll be guinea pigs for a project that has already been delayed due to manufacturing issues. The pricing offers no incentive get beyond that reluctance.

About the Dogma, that's just ridiculously overpriced, and I've ridden the Dogma 2. Great bike. Crazy pricing. 

Thanks again for the info. Cheers.


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## looigi

DiegoMontoya said:


> Price these at $4,250 and you have a winner, IMO.


I'd like to know what you base your opinion on. As far as I'm aware, there are no objective qualitative or quantitative reports of how the frame performs so it's still pretty much an unknown quantity. I'm optimistic and rooting for it to be a great bike, but the jury's still out. In fact, the last time the case was heard, (TDF) 5 of the 9 judges ruled against it. The case will be heard again in next week in CO.


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## DiegoMontoya

looigi said:


> I'd like to know what you base your opinion on. As far as I'm aware, there are no objective qualitative or quantitative reports of how the frame performs so it's still pretty much an unknown quantity. I'm optimistic and rooting for it to be a great bike, but the jury's still out. In fact, the last time the case was heard, (TDF) 5 of the 9 judges ruled against it. The case will be heard again in next week in CO.


I should add that, if it is every bit the bike that is advertised, then I think $4,250 would probably be an attractive price. That would be the max MSRP. I base that on the pricing, quality, and brand recognition of top-end frames. BMC lacks the cachet of Pinarello or the proven hand-made quality of Time. So, in my opinion, its pricing should reflect that. However, I'm not an expert in figuring out the demand curves for bicycle manufacturers. I figure they can do that themselves, but they may benefit from having come consumer input.

"Hand-made by robots" in Switzerland just says "marketing hype" to me. Top pros have been riding bikes not "hand-made by robots" and winning all the time, so I'm not sure what that new characteristic adds and why it should command a premium. I thought my BMC SLC-01 was a very nice bike and it wasn't handmade by robots. 

I think everyone knows the Impec is priced where it is because BMC needs to recoup some of the fixed costs associated with building that nifty factory. And hey, I'd rather see people pay $5,500 for a bike than for a car.


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## carbonLORD

DiegoMontoya said:


> I should add that, if it is every bit the bike that is advertised, then I think $4,250 would probably be an attractive price. That would be the max MSRP. I base that on the pricing, quality, and brand recognition of top-end frames. BMC lacks the cachet of Pinarello or the proven hand-made quality of Time. So, in my opinion, its pricing should reflect that. However, I'm not an expert in figuring out the demand curves for bicycle manufacturers. I figure they can do that themselves, but they may benefit from having come consumer input.
> 
> "Hand-made by robots" in Switzerland just says "marketing hype" to me. Top pros have been riding bikes not "hand-made by robots" and winning all the time, so I'm not sure what that new characteristic adds and why it should command a premium. I thought my BMC SLC-01 was a very nice bike and it wasn't handmade by robots.
> 
> I think everyone knows the Impec is priced where it is because BMC needs to recoup some of the fixed costs associated with building that nifty factory. And hey, I'd rather see people pay $5,500 for a bike than for a car.


I think Pinarellos are overpriced for the technology and nothing special in this marketplace. Goofy forks and cookie cutter Monocoque frames reminiscent of Kestrel's from the early 1990's don't really place it in any cachet for me, but that's why there are so many brands to choose from, especially in the one piece carbon frame marketplace.

I also didn't find the SLC01 to be anything exceptional and place zero value in CNT "nano-marketing" which is why it was abandoned so quickly me thinks.

I think the only benefit we can find in the use of robots are consistency and precision epoxy application. Remember Trek's OCLV (Optimum Carbon Low Void)? This may actually be the case with robots handling injection as opposed to humans but that is about it.

Times handmade work is impressive and it will boil down to apples and oranges ultimately.

I like lugged frames and wonder if crash/repair/replacement of a carbon section will be easier to administer in this case. I can't comment on a bike I've never ridden but the company has certainly proven themselves and established a place in the cycling market and it will be interesting to see just where the Impec design and process finds itself a year or two from now.


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## MoPho

DiegoMontoya said:


> "Hand-made by robots" in Switzerland just says "marketing hype" to me. Top pros have been riding bikes not "hand-made by robots" and winning all the time, so I'm not sure what that new characteristic adds and why it should command a premium. I thought my BMC SLC-01 was a very nice bike and it wasn't handmade by robots.


You were the one arguing "hand made" as a positive attribute over the impec. Hand Made can also be seen as marketing hype. 
Top Pros are going to win regardless of what bike they are riding and that is all part of the marketing hype as well

I doubt that the manufacturing process adds much if anything to the characteristics (that would be down to the design), but it can affect reliability and structural integrity. Humans make mistakes, robots don't.

I just purchased an SLC01 and I am enjoying it quite a bit too :thumbsup:


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## DiegoMontoya

MoPho said:


> You were the one arguing "hand made" as a positive attribute over the impec. Hand Made can also be seen as marketing hype.
> Top Pros are going to win regardless of what bike they are riding and that is all part of the marketing hype as well
> 
> I doubt that the manufacturing process adds much if anything to the characteristics (that would be down to the design), but it can affect reliability and structural integrity. Humans make mistakes, robots don't.
> :


Just curious, who do you think builds and programs the robots?

I am not arguing that hand made is a positive attribute in absolute. I'm saying it is a positive attribute FOR ME. I'm not speaking for anyone else here, so that should be quite clear. Personally, I agree with CarbonLord said above. Lots and lots of marketing hype pervades this industry and most others. "Nanotubes"? LOL. Now it's "handmade by robots"? Which brings up the point, if the term "handmade" weren't a positive attribute, why would BMC feature it so prominently? Why not just say "made by robots"?

I think you should probably familiarize yourself more with the bicycle manufacturing process beyond "robots good, humans bad".  

BMC isn't even close to being the worst offender in the marketing hype department though. I'd put Pinarello and Specialized well above them.

Oh, to CL, yep, if a tube breaks on a lugged Time frame, they can just replace that tube. It does make it easier on the warranty.


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## MoPho

DiegoMontoya said:


> Just curious, who do you think builds and programs the robots?


The robot only needs to be programmed once and if there is a mistake, it will be readily apparent. Robots don't get tired, robots don't forget to do something, nor do they have bad days or problems at home to occupy their minds, etc.. There is a reason most manufacturing has gone automated.

Many of these "hand made" CF frames are being built by people who've never even ridden a bike like this or know the difference between a Pinarello and a Huffy. It's not like they are hand made by artisans doing it for the love of the bike. The reality of "hand made" doesn't live up to the romance




> I am not arguing that hand made is a positive attribute in absolute. I'm saying it is a positive attribute FOR ME. I'm not speaking for anyone else here, so that should be quite clear.


That wasn't clear and you kept bringing it up. If it's not for you, don't buy one, but no need to post reasons why X bike is better. 

And I am into hand made stuff too, heck, I have a hand made car, but I am just pointing out that there is an argument for being built by robots. Whether it is hype or not remains to be seen :wink:

There is a saying in the car industry, "there is an ass for every seat". I am sure plenty of people will buy the Impec

.


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## DiegoMontoya

MoPho said:


> Many of these "hand made" CF frames are being built by people who've never even ridden a bike like this or know the difference between a Pinarello and a Huffy. It's not like they are hand made by artisans doing it for the love of the bike. The reality of "hand made" doesn't live up to the romance.
> .


Now you're just making stuff up, and it's clear you just don't know much about bikes or the industry. But you are entitled to your opinion, just the same. I'm pretty sure you've never ridden a Time or know much about their manufacturing process, or Cyfac's or any other handmade bike frame manufacturer.

You just heard "robots" and popped a woody. Look, nothing against robots, and I would love to ride and Impec and maybe buy one if the quality and price are right. I don't really care what name is on the downtube. I care about how a frame rides and the type of company behind it.

And again, if handmade were just a fantasy, why would BMC use it in their advertising?


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## MoPho

DiegoMontoya said:


> Now you're just making stuff up, and it's clear you just don't know much about bikes or the industry. But you are entitled to your opinion, just the same. I'm pretty sure you've never ridden a Time or know much about their manufacturing process, or Cyfac's or any other handmade bike frame manufacturer.
> 
> You just heard "robots" and popped a woody. Look, nothing against robots, and I would love to ride and Impec and maybe buy one if the quality and price are right. I don't really care what name is on the downtube. I care about how a frame rides and the type of company behind it.
> 
> And again, if handmade were just a fantasy, why would BMC use it in their advertising?



Riiight...... No woody here, perhaps you should read what I wrote, I was just pointing out to you that hand made is not necessarily better than robot made, period!

My BMC is the first new bike I've bought in 16 years and I while I am really enjoying it, it didn't make me any faster than I was on my old De Rosa and I don't need to ride a Time or Cyfac to know it will make no difference to me. Personally, I think $5k for a frame is absurd and I could care less about whether the bike is made by hand or robots, made in Taiwan or Italy, or who won the TDF. 



> And again, if handmade were just a fantasy, why would BMC use it in their advertising?


Because people like you eat that **** up. Perhaps you're the one popping a marketing hype "woody" :thumbsup:


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## DiegoMontoya

MoPho said:


> Riiight...... No woody here, perhaps you should read what I wrote, I was just pointing out to you that hand made is not necessarily better than robot made, period!
> 
> My BMC is the first new bike I've bought in 16 years and I while I am really enjoying it, it didn't make me any faster than I was on my old De Rosa and I don't need to ride a Time or Cyfac to know it will make no difference to me. Personally, I think $5k for a frame is absurd and I could care less about whether the bike is made by hand or robots, made in Taiwan or Italy, or who won the TDF.
> 
> Because people like you eat that **** up. Perhaps you're the one popping a marketing hype "woody" :thumbsup:


I don't need to worry about marketing hype. I've owned both and can judge for myself.

To each his own though. Enjoy your BMC and keep the rubber side down.


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## Peanya

DiegoMontoya, if you dislike this product so much, then keep quiet and post elsewhere. Remember the saying: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. You're not doing any good here. 

Personally, BMC might be a tad more expensive than many brands, and a lot more than others. Let people decide what they want. I'd love to own an Impec, but something like that is way out of my budget. Heck, even the SL01 is out of my budget! At the time, it was a stretch to buy my alu/cf SL01, but I got it because it looked much nicer than anything else (to me), and is very unique. It also rides very nicely for an alu frame. 
Most likely, I'll be getting a Giant Defy next, because they're going to cost less. I'm also considering getting a Cervelo RS (now that's a bike which I feel is a much better value for the dollar than the current SL01). But, if the time comes I get a new bike, and the SL01 is in my budget, you betcha I'll be getting it again. Sure, I'll have spent about $1100 more, but it'll be what I want.


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## ultraman6970

+1 with Peanya, guys are just fighting for dumb things.


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## DiegoMontoya

Peanya said:


> DiegoMontoya, if you dislike this product so much, then keep quiet and post elsewhere. Remember the saying: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. You're not doing any good here.


That's just stupid. Nobody's allowed to give negative reviews? LOL!


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## jim_

CarbonLord - you wouldn't have happened to have snapped a couple of shots of the 2012 RM01 ?


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## carbonLORD

jim_ said:


> CarbonLord - you wouldn't have happened to have snapped a couple of shots of the 2012 RM01 ?


I didn't Jim, sorry... I was at a shop where my friends SLC01 was being warrantied (sawed in half) when I grazed through the 2012 shop catalog.

_*But*_

He might be receiving a 2012 under warranty as a replacement this week (assuming they are out of 2011 RM in his size) and since I'm the one with a car (to get his parts up there for the rebuild), I'll get some better shots of the whole catalog this time.


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## crazyc

Just a question - are the BMC's over priced by the company or is it that
the Swiss Franc is high? (about 0.75us to 1 franc) (or both)


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## carbonLORD

crazyc said:


> Just a question - are the BMC's over priced by the company or is it that
> the Swiss Franc is high? (about 0.75us to 1 franc) (or both)


There are several (sarcastic) ways to answer this questions, since you asked me here goes:

1: Why are you asking me (us) on a forum when you should ask a BMC rep/dealer/shop?

2: Over priced? Have you looked at the marketplace lately... $4,000 wheel sets, $1,000 brake calipers and the competition's pricing to name a few?

3: Are Porsche's over priced when you can get a modified Audi for 1/3rd the price that is faster on a track?

4: Are you upset because you cannot afford one in this price range (It's ok, neither can I)

5: Your troll is showing.

Take no offense, (as I'm just busting your chops) but I find your comment and any comment about the worth of any high end product (be it a watch, a car or a pair of designer jeans) funny.

Honestly, Ive been paying thousands of dollars for frames and equipment for so long, the prices seem in-line with 2011, to me.


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## ultraman6970

No, their bikes aren't overpriced. They sell you a racing bike thats all, all their models are worth racing, at the opposite u have other brands with 30 different models that is just retarded, well focus in different market niches for every bike but what in the world do you do with 30 different models and 2 really racing worth ones?? Well, they sell parts, thats all they do, the business is not the bikes is to sell you the parts. U think is a good deal sometimes but if you do the numbers they sell you only the parts and a over priced frame they got for 50 bucks, specially in the low end market. 

All the bikes or frames in the same level go for the same price, so bmc is not over priced IMO. Trek has 36 racing bike models, isn't that retarded?? 36, from those 36 maybe 5 are worth racing? BMC has maybe 4 now? And u can race even with the street race model that is the low end w/o any problem, the same with the caad models from cannondale. So if you dont let BS by marketing you know what a bike worth in the market and what is good or bad. BMC is not selling you the parts if you look at it, their products are good stuff, besides what u are getting too is the entry to a very small club, the BMC club. In a matter of fact they could ask even more money for their bikes.

Last TDF won by the texan meant to sell a replica bike like for +6000 bucks, they did 200 of them? well it was the same frame than ever, painted in yellow and with a different serial number, besides that was the same stuff u can get for 3000 or even less used. That's over pricing.


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## crazyc

1: Why are you asking me (us) on a forum when you should ask a BMC rep/dealer/shop?

2: Over priced? Have you looked at the marketplace lately... $4,000 wheel sets, $1,000 brake calipers and the competition's pricing to name a few?

3: Are Porsche's over priced when you can get a modified Audi for 1/3rd the price that is faster on a track?

4: Are you upset because you cannot afford one in this price range (It's ok, neither can I)

5: Your troll is showing.

Take no offense, (as I'm just busting your chops) but I find your comment and any comment about the worth of any high end product (be it a watch, a car or a pair of designer jeans) funny.

Honestly, Ive been paying thousands of dollars for frames and equipment for so long, the prices seem in-line with 2011, to me.[/QUOTE]

1) did you see the part where I said it's JUST a question.
2) Can I afford one. easily
3) I never made any sort of comment regarding worth. Worth is personal.
4) sorry about my internet forum ignorance but I'm not really
sure what a troll is. Maybe I am a troll, I don't know. I'll goggle it next.
5) No offense taken. 





3)


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## crazyc

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[

Well I don't think I'm a troll.. My question was regarding the cost of BMC's
which was the thread topic. No inflammatory, off-topic, or provoking comments.
My wife will be happy to know I'm not a troll, I may smell like a troll after a good
ride but thats fixable.


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## DiegoMontoya

The term "overpriced" is only relevant to the worth someone places on a good. Just like any other company, BMC is going to walk along the demand curve until they figure out their profit-maximizing position. 

I think we're just all opining on the worth we place on a certain frame. It's somewhat silly when you have posters on here saying that you should only post if you agree with the pricing. Apparently the concepts of free speech and divergent opinions haven't trickled down to those folks yet. 

Just to clarify. I don't find BMC particularly special, though I liked their SLC fine. When I saw the price tag for the Impec, I thought it was rather silly given its history of production woes. However, it's a nice looking bike, made in Switzerland, and has a lifetime warranty. That immediately puts it above the horde of cheap frames coming out of China.

Now, juxtaposed against a $12,000 Cannondale with Sram Red, I'd pick the BMC 10 times out of 10. I think Time is a better value, but I'd get an Impec over a Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant, Pinarello, etc.


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## ultraman6970

Lol....


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## JohnHenry

The Impec looks nice.


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## twiggy

I think some people missed the 'tongue in cheek' joke that is the BMC phrase of the moment: "Handmade by Robots" ....I think they're poking fun at people who believe that a frame being Hand-Made is the be-all, end-all. They're joking that it appeals to those snobs, but better in their opinion....as they've chosen Robots to do the 'hand working'.


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## Promocop

From a marketers POV its brilliant copy. I road it for 15 minutes, its fantastic!


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## JimmyORCA

Promocop, which bike did you order? Did you order the impec if so, when is the planned delivery?


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## Promocop

Yes. Red Black. UltegraDi2. I kept going back and forth. The cost is stupid expensive. $9k. All in BUT. Life is short and I know the difference between the ride qualities of bikes (although I will not be able to wring that out in a race!) and so I bougt me a birthday present. Deliver is October. Just in time. Not of these bikes are really worth this much money are they? But we pay the price anyway. Rode several new BMCs at the Cynergy launch party and went for it. If my wife only knew!


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