# the pro peleton will only ride with disc brakes....



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

because they will be told to do so by the money people.

it won't matter what they want or don't want.

they'll do what the bosses say.


doesn't mean discs are preferred by the rider.



it's a big high stakes gamble by the industry that very well could pay huuuuge dividends.

new frames will be needed, new wheels, hubs etc.,etc.,..not to mention the brakes themselves....


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Yep, same with mountain biking. Nobody would voluntarily buy a bike with discs.

I hope some cheating jerk will show up with superior rim brakes and ruin it all. It'll teach those corporate bass turds a lesson when all the R&D and tooling expense goes down the toilet.

If only they had your wisdom.


factory feel said:


> because they will be told to do so by the money people.
> 
> it won't matter what they want or don't want.
> 
> ...


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> Yep, same with mountain biking. Nobody would voluntarily buy a bike with discs.


What kind of farcical fallacy is that? That does not in any way address what the op is saying, which is essentially a matter of fact that the pro riders ride what they're given, save for a very few of the top guys.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

This entire view of market forces is fantasy. Nobody is going to require anybody to ride inferior technology nor is any pro rider going to knowingly ride inferior technology. Their future, the manufacturer's and the sponsor's future depend on race results.


pedalbiker said:


> What kind of farcical fallacy is that? That does not in any way address what the op is saying, which is essentially a matter of fact that the pro riders ride what they're given, save for a very few of the top guys.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Fact: pro riders want to win. Fact: sponsors that invest millions of dollars on pro teams, want riders on those teams to win stages and races, and to be in breakaways, etc. Fact: The UCI does not want a blood bath on national television, nor do they want to add any fuel to the riders' complaints about safety. Fact: racers, teams, race organizers, and the UCI want safe races. You can argue and gripe about whatever you want, but you can't ignore these things (or at least you can't alter that they are reality). Given all of this, it's not all about money; it can't be. Pro cycling would not consciously put it's primary revenue source (sponsor dollars) at risk by putting the racers and teams those companies are paying for at risk. It's really that simple.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Here's how the topic is being worked out by people actually involved: 

Campagnolo, Specialized say they will be ready for disc brakes in 2016 pro peloton | Cyclingnews.com


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

factory feel said:


> because they will be told to do so by the money people.
> 
> it won't matter what they want or don't want.
> 
> ...


I am just putting this out there. If some big sponsor wants give me a free high zoot bike with disc brakes, I will shamefully ride it no matter how offensive I find them. Sponsors may PM me to get the address where to send the bike


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Threads about disks are not like cow bells. you don't always need more.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

den bakker said:


> Threads about disks are not like cow bells. you don't always need more.


I agree and I don't get why this requires a separate thread when we already have one (or more).


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> Fact: pro riders want to win. Fact: sponsors that invest millions of dollars on pro teams, want riders on those teams to win stages and races, and to be in breakaways, etc. Fact: The UCI does not want a blood bath on national television, nor do they want to add any fuel to the riders' complaints about safety. Fact: racers, teams, race organizers, and the UCI want safe races. You can argue and gripe about whatever you want, but you can't ignore these things (or at least you can't alter that they are reality). Given all of this, it's not all about money; it can't be. Pro cycling would not consciously put it's primary revenue source (sponsor dollars) at risk by putting the racers and teams those companies are paying for at risk. It's really that simple.


Right. Good point. Sponsors, race promoters, the UCI would NEVER put cash first or want to endanger the health of riders. That's why they cracked down on doping in the mid-'90 through the mid-'00s.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

They might put cash first. It could be that someone is paying them, their riders and sponsors to take a dive in the TDF so they don't mind riding slow/inferior bikes!

Hows much do you reckon you have to pay a team. their riders and sponsors to throw 20 races?


OldChipper said:


> Right. Good point. Sponsors, race promoters, the UCI would NEVER put cash first or want to endanger the health of riders. That's why they cracked down on doping in the mid-'90 through the mid-'00s.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

this is where disc brakes shine....

MUST WATCH: George Brannigan - Loose Laps - Pinkbike


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

These threads are about religion. The Luddite State will never let cyclists implement new technology without a fight. I fear what they may have in mind for us infidels!

Is it too late for a conversion?


den bakker said:


> Threads about disks are not like cow bells. you don't always need more.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Bit of hyperbole here. Nobody will be 'required' to ride disc, but it is reasonable to assume that the sponsors will strongly encourage riders to use disc. And the sponsors do pay the bills.

Also entirely possible that riders choose different set-ups for different legs, just like they do now when they switch between compact and standard gearing.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Trek_5200 said:


> Also entirely possible that riders choose different set-ups for different legs, just like they do now when they switch between compact and standard gearing.


oh that shouldn't be very co$tly....


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

factory feel said:


> oh that shouldn't be very co$tly....


not really no.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Thanks for posting that. I was wondering about Campy.


Rashadabd said:


> Here's how the topic is being worked out by people actually involved:
> 
> Campagnolo, Specialized say they will be ready for disc brakes in 2016 pro peloton | Cyclingnews.com


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> This entire view of market forces is fantasy. Nobody is going to require anybody to ride inferior technology nor is any pro rider going to knowingly ride inferior technology. Their future, the manufacturer's and the sponsor's future depend on race results.


You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Case in point, triathletes and cyclists alike have routinely ridden aerodynamically inferior equipment. There have been notable examples of a prominent triathlete dropping a bike sponsor because of it. 

Like I said before, top riders sometimes choose equipment that is in direct competition with their sponsors (Garmin powermeter?!).

There's definitely knowledge of what is and isn't fast (or practical, or just functional!) and there are some stuck with the not so fast and with no ability to do anything about it. Whether or not it significantly affects outcome is a bit of conjecture, but over the years, discerning eyes have seen...


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

OldChipper said:


> Right. Good point. Sponsors, race promoters, the UCI would NEVER put cash first or want to endanger the health of riders. That's why they cracked down on doping in the mid-'90 through the mid-'00s.


And the sport is just now digging itself out of that hole. They lost sponsors, fans, and money. New sponsors and fans have replaced the old ones, but expectations have changed.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> Bit of hyperbole here. Nobody will be 'required' to ride disc, but it is reasonable to assume that the sponsors will strongly encourage riders to use disc. And the sponsors do pay the bills.
> 
> Also entirely possible that riders choose different set-ups for different legs, just like they do now when they switch between compact and standard gearing.


Let me clarify one thing, for most teams, the bike sponsor isn't "paying the bills" they just provide the bikes and equipment for the most part. It's the names on the kits (name of the teams) that's paying the bills. That's who you have to please. They want wins and they don't give a rat's hiney what bike or wheels you are on to get there most of the time because they are promoting their bank or business, etc and not the bike or wheels. Obviously that dynamic changes when the bike company also owns the team and the wheels like Trek Factory Racing, BMC Racing, and Giant Alpecin, etc. Specialized might have more influence because they are so big and involved as well, but in general the bike and component companies aren't contributing the majority of the funds used to run a team. So, there goes that argument....


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Thanks for posting that. I was wondering about Campy.


No problem.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Here's a little something else to chew on. In this video you will see Tom Boonen, one of the best Classics riders in history testing the then new Roubaix SL4 with support from Chris D'Aluisio, one of the most influential people at Specialized. You will see that Chris clearly wants Tom to try the new CGR post, Tom plays along but doesn't appear to be buying the hype and doesn't seem all that interested in the seatpost. In the end, he decides he loves the bike, tells *them* what the set-up will be and he NEVER rides that post in a race. Not once. They had to sell them without shots of him racing on that post in every ad, which would have been huge given how much he has accomplished in the cobbled races. There are similar videos out there with Thor Hushovd, Cadel Evans, Gilbert, and Tejay and BMC (GF01 and SLR01) and Cancellara and Trek (Domane), etc.. Racers have more say than some are suggesting here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2MgdjiQcSM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKUWQR24lYY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjy1sa6VUoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxu42UWLpQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0HDZm_S7II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3oIEys0-uI

I am sure this is all probably technology and developments you hate anyway though...


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

This is humorous on so many levels. Yes, Coppi did ride bikes that were inferior to Cavs bikes.

You say one thing and then point to the fallacy of that statement by supplying evidence to the contrary: "triathletes and cyclists alike have routinely ridden aerodynamically inferior equipment. There have been notable examples of a prominent triathlete dropping a bike sponsor because of it."

That is precisely what happens. Nobody who counts on winning to determine their income is going to knowingly use equipment that they feel does not serve that purpose.


pedalbiker said:


> You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Case in point, triathletes and cyclists alike have routinely ridden aerodynamically inferior equipment. There have been notable examples of a prominent triathlete dropping a bike sponsor because of it.
> 
> Like I said before, top riders sometimes choose equipment that is in direct competition with their sponsors (Garmin powermeter?!).
> 
> There's definitely knowledge of what is and isn't fast (or practical, or just functional!) and there are some stuck with the not so fast and with no ability to do anything about it. Whether or not it significantly affects outcome is a bit of conjecture, but over the years, discerning eyes have seen...


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## BigTex91 (Nov 5, 2013)

[sarcasm]Yep, if the teams say use it, all the riders will use it. That's why you will never see a power meter other than a Vector on a Cannondale-Garmin team bike. [/sarcasm]


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

den bakker said:


> Threads about disks are not like cow bells. you don't always need more.


Exactly. One is more than enough.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

Can someone explain to me why people give half a crap what the pros do/ride/wear/etc?

Do you care what shoes your favorite quarterback wears too?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

thisisthebeave said:


> Can someone explain to me why people give half a crap what the pros do/ride/wear/etc?


because that's where the manufacturers will put the R & D money.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

den bakker said:


> Threads about disks are not like cow bells. you don't always need more.


Winning!


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

Rashadabd said:


> Here's a little something else to chew on. In this video you will see Tom Boonen, one of the best Classics riders in history testing the then new Roubaix SL4 with support from Chris D'Aluisio, one of the most influential people at Specialized. You will see that Chris clearly wants Tom to try the new CGR post, Tom plays along but doesn't appear to be buying the hype and doesn't seem all that interested in the seatpost. In the end, he decides he loves the bike, tells *them* what the set-up will be and he NEVER rides that post in a race. Not once. They had to sell them without shots of him racing on that post in every ad, which would have been huge given how much he has accomplished in the cobbled races. There are similar videos out there with Thor Hushovd, Cadel Evans, Gilbert, and Tejay and BMC (GF01 and SLR01) and Cancellara and Trek (Domane), etc.. Racers have more say than some are suggesting here...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2MgdjiQcSM
> 
> ...












do we think taylor phinney choose the above ill-fitting bike for roubix?


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

factory feel said:


> because that's where the manufacturers will put the R & D money.


No, that's backwards 

It has to exist before pros ride it


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

If this attracts the younger American generation to road bikes I'm all for it. To me it seems like road cyclists nowadays are heavily skewing towards old curmudgeons (me included). The younger generation isn't spending $10K on a road bike. They're either

a) Hipsters that ride their single speed to their local Wi-Fi enabled beard-friendly coffee bar or
b) Cross-fit city dwellers that have a yearly Cycle-share pass or
c) Mountain bikers that prefer single track and would never be caught dead in lycra riding on a road.

The only younger generation road bikers I see out there are women (which is a nice change of scenery, but I could be their father). The appeal for young men seems to be absent, road biking having been declared "uncool" by Lance Armstrong's murder of the American cycling ethos. Too bad, I think most young people would actually love riding on the great road bikes of today.


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## Wayne-O (Oct 8, 2014)

Haw many you you have switched to MTB discs? Once you ride off road with good hydraulic disk brakes you will not want to go back.

The problem I see is when a rider has to have wheel(s) changed during a race, will the disc line up with the brake without dragging? I have a 2 sets of wheels, with the same hubs and changing wheels often requires adjusting the brake to eliminate rub on the disc, which can be substantial. If this can be worked out I would suspect that most riders will want discs especially when descending in the mountains.

Wayne


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

I wonder will UCI rule that the rear must be a 135mm x QR and front 100mm x QR... or is it going to let a free for all like MTB standards (standards used loosely). 135mm and 142mm rears will surely be a start and QR, 9mm thru and 12mm thru axle rears.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Rashadabd said:


> Let me clarify one thing, for most teams, the bike sponsor isn't "paying the bills" they just provide the bikes and equipment for the most part. It's the names on the kits (name of the teams) that's paying the bills. That's who you have to please. They want wins and they don't give a rat's hiney what bike or wheels you are on to get there most of the time because they are promoting their bank or business, etc and not the bike or wheels. Obviously that dynamic changes when the bike company also owns the team and the wheels like Trek Factory Racing, BMC Racing, and Giant Alpecin, etc. Specialized might have more influence because they are so big and involved as well, but in general the bike and component companies aren't contributing the majority of the funds used to run a team. So, there goes that argument....


The teams, yeah the ones with their names on they jersey, where do they get their money? SPONSORS. Yes, some big name sponsors are not bike related and their funds go toward salaries. Teams do sign sponsorship agreements with bike and bike part manufacturers to get free stuff. When is the last time that you have seen a top pro team overtly ride bikes by different manufacturers? 

Will all team members be forced to ride disc? Probably not. I expect riders will have choices like Specialized teams that might ride a Tarmac or Venge or a Trek team where riders could be on a Madone, Emonda or Domane. Will riders be encouraged to in order to promote the line, yes.

Will some riders willingly adopt disc brakes for races with technical descents? You bet.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> The teams, yeah the ones with their names on they jersey, where do they get their money? SPONSORS. Yes, some big name sponsors are not bike related and their funds go toward salaries. Teams do sign sponsorship agreements with bike and bike part manufacturers to get free stuff. When is the last time that you have seen a top pro team overtly ride bikes by different manufacturers?
> 
> Will all team members be forced to ride disc? Probably not. I expect riders will have choices like Specialized teams that might ride a Tarmac or Venge or a Trek team where riders could be on a Madone, Emonda or Domane. Will riders be encouraged to in order to promote the line, yes.
> 
> Will some riders willingly adopt disc brakes for races with technical descents? You bet.


You clearly misunderstood me. There is obviously only one bike sponsor per team, but which of the team bikes a particular rider chooses and whether it has disc or rim brakes is pretty much irrelevant to the companies actually paying most teams bills. That changes where the team owner is a bike company or where the owner or sponsor loves a particular bike company like Tinkoff does. Otherwise, they just want brand exposure and for the team to win.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

thisisthebeave said:


> Can someone explain to me why people give half a crap what the pros do/ride/wear/etc?


Because it's what sets the standard for future bikes. If all the pros go to disc, eventually you won't be able to buy an off the shelf bike with rim brakes. Just like you can't buy a new high end bike with 8, 9, 10 speed. Just like you can't buy a new MTB with rim brakes. Even though rim brakes are more than adequate for the vast majority of MTB'ers.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I think the majority of mountain bikes sold now are still rim brakes. I think you're correct in saying that nearly all mid and upper range mountain bikes are disc.

Chances are that a large percentage of mid and upper range mountain bikers actually use them for mountain biking but they are a small minority. I'm guessing that most are sold to people for riding MUTs and around campus.

All of the above is anecdotal and from observation in my part of the country. I've not asked the local shop owners that I use.


tlg said:


> Because it's what sets the standard for future bikes. If all the pros go to disc, eventually you won't be able to buy an off the shelf bike with rim brakes. Just like you can't buy a new high end bike with 8, 9, 10 speed. Just like you can't buy a new MTB with rim brakes. Even though rim brakes are more than adequate for the vast majority of MTB'ers.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Rashadabd said:


> You clearly misunderstood me. There is obviously only one bike sponsor per team, but which of the team bikes a particular rider chooses and whether it has disc or rim brakes is pretty much irrelevant to the companies actually paying most teams bills. That changes where the team owner is a bike company or where the owner or sponsor loves a particular bike company like Tinkoff does. Otherwise, they just want brand exposure and for the team to win.


We are pretty close in our thoughts. I would add that a team has many sponsors and each sponsor has their own expectations out of a relationship with a team. Winning is #1 for all sponsors as a winner sells. Product exposure is key for bicycle manufacturers. Do you think Trek has sold more Domanes because Cancellara has shown that you can race, and win on a "comfort" bike. Yes, his bike is more aggressive than the typical Domane, but it still has the name on it.

If a bike manufacturer can show a rider with discs gaining a 1 minute or two on a technical descent then they will get people buying those bikes... they will have met their objective. The major team sponsors will be happy because they have a winner and have had their jersey (billboard) out front and on TV. Yes, they could give a rats azz what technology allowed that. " Just win baby"

I guess the point is that the decisions of the equipment available to the typical journeyman pro are corporate decisions based on agreements between the team and the sponsors. Journeyman riders have little, if any, input.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Wayne, I'm a little surprised. I have a set of enve 3.4 clinchers and a set of bontrager aeolus tubulars and I switch wheels all the time with no disc rub or adjustment.

I am talking about a road bike with Shimano dura ace hydros but there shouldn't be any difference. What hydro system do you have on your MTB?


Wayne-O said:


> Haw many you you have switched to MTB discs? Once you ride off road with good hydraulic disk brakes you will not want to go back.
> 
> The problem I see is when a rider has to have wheel(s) changed during a race, will the disc line up with the brake without dragging? I have a 2 sets of wheels, with the same hubs and changing wheels often requires adjusting the brake to eliminate rub on the disc, which can be substantial. If this can be worked out I would suspect that most riders will want discs especially when descending in the mountains.
> 
> Wayne


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

tlg said:


> Because it's what sets the standard for future bikes. If all the pros go to disc, eventually you won't be able to buy an off the shelf bike with rim brakes. Just like you can't buy a new high end bike with 8, 9, 10 speed. Just like you can't buy a new MTB with rim brakes. Even though rim brakes are more than adequate for the vast majority of MTB'ers.


Just do not buy an off the shelf bike and then your in a position to ride a bike that fits you body size and your personality. Steel, Ti, Aluminum, carbon frames are all out there and in any configuration that you want. And you can support small business many times in your own community.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You are seeing the same thing I am but I was seeing it well before the Armstrong thing. In 2002 I took some spin classes with my step-son in the winter and, out of 20 or so, he and I and sometimes one other guy were the only males in the room. For the past 15 years, it has been unusual to see young males (15to30) riding road bikes in the mountains in the US. I was into mountain biking only before that (except for training) so I don't know if there were many even in the 90's

The only conclusion I can reach is that young guys are all being neutered at birth.


DrSmile said:


> If this attracts the younger American generation to road bikes I'm all for it. To me it seems like road cyclists nowadays are heavily skewing towards old curmudgeons (me included). The younger generation isn't spending $10K on a road bike. They're either
> 
> a) Hipsters that ride their single speed to their local Wi-Fi enabled beard-friendly coffee bar or
> b) Cross-fit city dwellers that have a yearly Cycle-share pass or
> ...


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think the majority of mountain bikes sold now are still rim brakes. I think you're correct in saying that nearly all mid and upper range mountain bikes are disc.


Gosh no. You can't find a new bike with rim brakes.
Trek Mountain | Bikes |
Disc are the only options.

Specialized Bicycle Components
Only one bike with rim brakes. $440 low end 7sp Hardrock V

Men Off-Road - Giant Bicycles | United States
Again only one bike with rim. $370 low end 7sp Revel 2.

I haven't seen a new MTB (greater than 9sp) with rim brakes in years.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I agree with your theory in the margin, but, imagine a bunch of tour riders on a fast descent-all with discs--except one guy with say Eebrakes that kick all of their asses. That will make disc brake bikes irrelevant and cause the sale of Eebrakes to skyrocket. 

The sponsors and manufacturers are not oblivious to this phenomena and have to be pretty well convinced to take the plunge. You'll look like a fool if you force your team to ride anything that is not proven technology. Conversely, you'll look like a genius if you win with something outside of the conventional wisdom--think Greg Lemond with aero bars.


Blue CheeseHead said:


> We are pretty close in our thoughts. I would add that a team has many sponsors and each sponsor has their own expectations out of a relationship with a team. Winning is #1 for all sponsors as a winner sells. Product exposure is key for bicycle manufacturers. Do you think Trek has sold more Domanes because Cancellara has shown that you can race, and win on a "comfort" bike. Yes, his bike is more aggressive than the typical Domane, but it still has the name on it.
> 
> If a bike manufacturer can show a rider with discs gaining a 1 minute or two on a technical descent then they will get people buying those bikes... they will have met their objective. The major team sponsors will be happy because they have a winner and have had their jersey (billboard) out front and on TV. Yes, they could give a rats azz what technology allowed that. " Just win baby"
> 
> I guess the point is that the decisions of the equipment available to the typical journeyman pro are corporate decisions based on agreements between the team and the sponsors. Journeyman riders have little, if any, input.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> I agree with your theory in the margin, but, imagine a bunch of tour riders on a fast descent-all with discs--except one guy with say Eebrakes that kick all of their asses. That will make disc brake bikes irrelevant and cause the sale of Eebrakes to skyrocket.
> 
> The sponsors and manufacturers are not oblivious to this phenomena and have to be pretty well convinced to take the plunge. *You'll look like a fool if your force your team to ride anything that is not proven technology*. Conversely, you'll look like a genius if you win with something outside of the conventional wisdom--think Greg Lemond with aero bars.


And that would never happen? Bright future for disc brakes fades briefly under a coating of Verona mud - VeloNews.com

SRAM continues hydraulic brake swaps, will launch improved model in May - VeloNews.com


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> You are seeing the same thing I am but I was seeing it well before the Armstrong thing. In 2002 I took some spin classes with my step-son in the winter and, out of 20 or so, he and I and sometimes one other guy were the only males in the room. For the past 15 years, it has been unusual to see young males (15to30) riding road bikes in the mountains in the US. I was into mountain biking only before that (except for training) so I don't know if there were many even in the 90's
> 
> The only conclusion I can reach is that young guys are all being neutered at birth.


My community is not really a road cycling community but there are about 30 of us out on the road. Average age is 40's and 50's. Even the out of town folks that come out to ride without heavy traffic are older. Maybe the high cost of bicycles has younger people looking elsewhere for activities. Maybe because it's just not safe to cycle on the road. Maybe it's because of the 300 lbs and it's just to hard to ride. Not sure really.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

factory feel said:


> because they will be told to do so by the money people.
> 
> it won't matter what they want or don't want.
> 
> ...


Yeah just like everyone will ride electronic shifting like they are told to ... unless they won't = Cancellara, Nibali, Conti.

Everyone will ride discs like they are told too except the leading cross racer in the world who constantly chooses cantis even tho he has access to dic options.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I stand corrected. That's pretty overwhelming evidence.




tlg said:


> I haven't seen a new MTB (greater than 9sp) with rim brakes in years.
> Trek Mountain | Bikes |
> Disc are the only options.
> 
> ...


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

In the first case, the users were not educated/aware of potential problems. How many pro mountain bikers has this happened to in races? 

In the second case, those who use products from the same manufacturer that makes Grip Sh!t have to be aware that this company doesn't know what they are doing technologically. They have a history of putting out products without doing proper R&D and sometimes they cling to those failed products and sell them to oblivious newcomers to cycling--like Grip Sh!t. 


Jay Strongbow said:


> And that would never happen? Bright future for disc brakes fades briefly under a coating of Verona mud - VeloNews.com
> 
> SRAM continues hydraulic brake swaps, will launch improved model in May - VeloNews.com


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

BikeLayne said:


> My community is not really a road cycling community but there are about 30 of us out on the road. Average age is 40's and 50's. Even the out of town folks that come out to ride without heavy traffic are older. Maybe the high cost of bicycles has younger people looking elsewhere for activities. Maybe because it's just not safe to cycle on the road. Maybe it's because of the 300 lbs and it's just to hard to ride. Not sure really.


I do think that there are a lot more younger folks riding road bikes in Italy but everybody rides so percentage wise I'm not sure. There is no question that mountain biking has become huge in Northern Italy but there are gondolas everywhere. You also see large numbers of MTBers riding uphill on the pavement and downhill on the dirt trails. 

It may be that younger folks are just work adverse! I know, I'm sounding old. "Sonny, when I was your age............................."


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> In the first case, the users were not educated/aware of potential problems. How many pro mountain bikers has this happened to in races?
> 
> In the second case, those who use products from the same manufacturer that makes Grip Sh!t have to be aware that this company doesn't know what they are doing technologically. They have a history of putting out products without doing proper R&D and sometimes they cling to those failed products and sell them to oblivious newcomers to cycling--like Grip Sh!t.


So which is it? That or the exact opposite like said earlier: "Nobody is going to require anybody to ride inferior technology nor is any pro rider going to knowingly ride inferior technology."

SRAM is a sponsor. Either they are having their riders ride inferior stuff or they are not. 

Grip shift works great by the way.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> Fact: pro riders want to win. Fact: sponsors that invest millions of dollars on pro teams, want riders on those teams to win stages and races, and to be in breakaways, etc. Fact: The UCI does not want a blood bath on national television, nor do they want to add any fuel to the riders' complaints about safety. Fact: racers, teams, race organizers, and the UCI want safe races. You can argue and gripe about whatever you want, but you can't ignore these things (or at least you can't alter that they are reality). Given all of this, it's not all about money; it can't be. Pro cycling would not consciously put it's primary revenue source (sponsor dollars) at risk by putting the racers and teams those companies are paying for at risk. It's really that simple.


the safety of disc vs rim is identical though. They can ride and perform the same with discs or rim brakes, imho.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Grip shift works great by the way.


I like em a lot. I have been a convert for 25 years when I first tried in on my Klein mtb race bike, still always swap in a grip shift for my rear shifter on all my MTB to this day. It is just better than triggers, imho. very precise feel. Can jump the whole block in a split second while the trigger guys are masturbating their triggers for a half minute.

However I never liked grip shift for the front derailleur, so I stick with trigger for that for 25 years also.

The more I use SRAM, the more I like their stuff. Very impressed with the eTap concept simplicity compared to the Rube Goldberg Di2 in comparison.

and SRAM Red, X-whatever is prettier than the others nowadays too.

Though I prefer shimano disk mtn brakes


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

BCSaltchucker said:


> the safety of disc vs rim is identical though. They can ride and perform the same with discs or rim brakes, imho.


Oh, I agree with you. My response was directed at those that suggested that pro teams and the UCI don't care about cyclist safety and that they are making this move to solely to sell more disc equipped road bikes and wheels. I don't think that is the case.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

follow the money


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> because they will be told to do so by the money people.
> 
> it won't matter what they want or don't want.
> 
> ...


Why not trick the public into thinking disks are better?

We all know my lawn will stay greener if you stop riding your new fangled disk bike on it.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> because they will be told to do so by the money people.
> 
> it won't matter what they want or don't want.
> 
> ...


In all seriousness, look at mtb and 650b. Those brainiacs fell for that "better" wheel size hook line and sinker. You cannot even buy a 26 in bike anymore. Is it better??? Some say yes, some can't tell. No one can test because the bike mfg don't make similar bikes in 26 and 650b


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Rashadabd said:


> Here's how the topic is being worked out by people actually involved:
> 
> Campagnolo, Specialized say they will be ready for disc brakes in 2016 pro peloton | Cyclingnews.com


Stop giving us real information we can use. Everyone is required to watch the pros kill it on their new disk equipped bikes and then go buy one.

It's not like disks are better at stopping carbon rimmed wheels on long descents........oh wait.........................then there's rain..........oh wait, it never rains when the TDF is going on.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

DaveG said:


> I am just putting this out there. If some big sponsor wants give me a free high zoot bike with disc brakes, I will shamefully ride it no matter how offensive I find them. Sponsors may PM me to get the address where to send the bike


You bike wh0re. 

you have to get in line right behind me. I'm just a better wh0re than you.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Wetworks said:


>


Yep, the disk break debate will rage on until we all get that coffee brake at the top of the climb. 

Disks are just better, unless you fall into the 14 conditions where they won't do squat.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> this is where disc brakes shine....
> 
> MUST WATCH: George Brannigan - Loose Laps - Pinkbike


I don't think my road bike with disk brakes could handle those jumps like that.

Now, put disks on my mtb, then we could be lookin at new Pinto with BF Goodrich radial TAs with raised white letters.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> These threads are about religion. The Luddite State will never let cyclists implement new technology without a fight. I fear what they may have in mind for us infidels!
> 
> Is it too late for a conversion?


You keep your new fangle disk brake contraption off my nice green lawn!!!


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> Thanks for posting that. I was wondering about Campy.


I don't recall seeing any pros using Campy. I will admit, I'm not looking that close.

Are there some big names in big races that run Campy?


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

den bakker said:


> Threads about disks are not like cow bells. you don't always need more.


Stop ridin' in the fields and get back on the road. No cowbells needed there.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

DrSmile said:


> c) Mountain bikers that prefer single track and would never be caught dead in lycra riding on a road.


Yes we will. 

I ride on the road so I can ride many loops of single track instead of just a few.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ziscwg said:


> In all seriousness, look at mtb and 650b. Those brainiacs fell for that "better" wheel size hook line and sinker. You cannot even buy a 26 in bike anymore. Is it better??? Some say yes, some can't tell. No one can test because the bike mfg don't make similar bikes in 26 and 650b


26 inch wheels were a mistake from the get go.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Wayne-O said:


> Haw many you you have switched to MTB discs? Once you ride off road with good hydraulic disk brakes you will not want to go back.


So once I go single track I won't go back??


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think the majority of mountain bikes sold now are still rim brakes. I think you're correct in saying that nearly all mid and upper range mountain bikes are disc.
> 
> Chances are that a large percentage of mid and upper range mountain bikers actually use them for mountain biking but they are a small minority. I'm guessing that most are sold to people for riding MUTs and around campus.
> 
> All of the above is anecdotal and from observation in my part of the country. I've not asked the local shop owners that I use.





tlg said:


> Gosh no. You can't find a new bike with rim brakes.
> Trek Mountain | Bikes |
> Disc are the only options.
> 
> ...


This^^^^^^

I even see WallyWorld bikes with disk brakes. They are mech disk, but still disk.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Wayne-O said:


> Haw many you you have switched to MTB discs? Once you ride off road with good hydraulic disk brakes you will not want to go back.


I don't ride my road bike off the road.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

factory feel said:


> I don't ride my road bike off the road.


At least not on purpose...


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I don't always ride my road bike off road, but when I do it's not on purpose.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

factory feel said:


> I don't always ride my road bike off road, but when I do it's not on purpose.


And that is probably the only time you do indeed wish you had disc brakes!


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm really wondering if people who bought disc bikes are now hosed, especially if they opted for the more popular quick release wheels. It's clear that thru-axle will get more focus and I think in a short time wheel choices will target thru axle not q.r for disc.
Doesn't seem easy to switch a bike over. What's involved? A new fork and drop-outs?

What do others think? Are existing owners screwed? or is it not that bad?


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

factory feel said:


> 26 inch wheels were a mistake from the get go.


I've had countless hours of fun on my 26 inch wheels. The U-brake on my old shogun mtb... not so much.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Trek_5200 said:


> I'm really wondering if people who bought disc bikes are now hosed, especially if they opted for the more popular quick release wheels. It's clear that thru-axle will get more focus and I think in a short time wheel choices will target thru axle not q.r for disc.
> Doesn't seem easy to switch a bike over. What's involved? A new fork and drop-outs?
> 
> What do others think? Are existing owners screwed? or is it not that bad?


everything is different.

frame brake mount.
fork brake mount.
wheels due to braking track surface vs. disc mount.

you take the plunge and you're stuck and will end up on the internet
defending your decision.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> I'm really wondering if people who bought disc bikes are now hosed, especially if they opted for the more popular quick release wheels. It's clear that thru-axle will get more focus and I think in a short time wheel choices will target thru axle not q.r for disc.
> Doesn't seem easy to switch a bike over. What's involved? A new fork and drop-outs?
> 
> What do others think? Are existing owners screwed? or is it not that bad?


Not an issue. Many, if not most thru axle hubs are convertible to QR. 
Besides I'm sure QR disc hubs will always be available.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You likely don't ride in the mud or rain. If you did you'd remember roll-a-ma-jigs, bass worms and an assortment of other crap that the aftermarket came out with to try to make grip sh!t work. 

I was suckered into two Kleins with that crap on them. One in about 91 and one about 95 when I was assured that all of the problems had been solved. When the rain started the new bikes shifting turned to sh!t like the previous and I changed bike shops and groupos. Went back to XT/XTR and really have used shimano most of the time since the mid to late 80's with very few issues (except for those two short stints with grip sh!t).

None of my riding/training partners from the 80's and 90's stayed with that crap for more than a couple of months. They laughed their asses off when they found out that I had been sucked into a second bike with that "parking lot groupo".

I still Have my Palomino with a 2001 integrated version of XTR.


BCSaltchucker said:


> I like em a lot. I have been a convert for 25 years when I first tried in on my Klein mtb race bike, still always swap in a grip shift for my rear shifter on all my MTB to this day. It is just better than triggers, imho. very precise feel. Can jump the whole block in a split second while the trigger guys are masturbating their triggers for a half minute.
> 
> However I never liked grip shift for the front derailleur, so I stick with trigger for that for 25 years also.
> 
> ...


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

A boat load.


ziscwg said:


> Are there some big names in big races that run Campy?


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Back east when I was racing a lot in the 90s, no I was not big on riding in the rain. Dry place to ride, esp in winter.

Now where I live in the PNW, it is wetter than the ocean half the year. Yet I have been using grip shift in the PNW since 1998 with never the slightest hint of trouble, on 5 different MTB now. I do hose off the bike after every muddy ride, and water no doubt gets in my current grip shift with the washdown (XO rear shifter). I ride the MTB more often in the cold wet season than the dry hot summer season, in fact.

Though maybe cause I am 6 4, the grips are a lot higher off the ground. And I have been MTBing so many decades that I generally do not crash, thus no mud getting into the grip shift.

I am well aware there is a long running split opinion with Gripshift. Some never liked it at all, and maybe a smaller % of us took to it with glee (though I continue to dislike it for the front mech, and always keep a trigger for that). Kind of a personal preference thing, I think. Quite a few things like that in cycling, like Carbon vs Steel, or 29er vs 26/650b, or Look vs Speedplay vs whatever

I have always thought it was silly to have bar-end grip shift on the road like a few people tried back in the early 90s. I guess brake-shifters killed that idea.

I kind of miss the original grip shift with the very large dia shifter, suited my large hands better than the current slimmer grip shift I use.

Nice thing is .. since the Grip Shift is the less popular shifter, I found a dealer selling them very cheap as riders would swap in triggers when they bought a new bike from them, leaving the dealer with surplus Grip Shift.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Let me make sure I understand. You are suggesting that pro teams and their major sponsors at the Giro and TDF are going to let a component supplier force them to use inferior products?

In lower level racing, component manufacturers do in fact use Pros to help with R&D on new components. Disc brakes were and are new to cross and remain in the R&D stages where wallowing in freezing mud is concerned. Cross is not exactly the Giro or the TDF--at least not yet.



Jay Strongbow said:


> So which is it? That or the exact opposite like said earlier: "Nobody is going to require anybody to ride inferior technology nor is any pro rider going to knowingly ride inferior technology."
> 
> SRAM is a sponsor. Either they are having their riders ride inferior stuff or they are not.
> 
> Grip shift works great by the way.


----------



## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> In all seriousness, look at mtb and 650b. Those brainiacs fell for that "better" wheel size hook line and sinker. You cannot even buy a 26 in bike anymore. Is it better??? Some say yes, some can't tell. No one can test because the bike mfg don't make similar bikes in 26 and 650b


anymore. a few years ago, bike manufacturers did make 26 and 650b for magazines to test, for the 26 vs 650b vs 29er debate.

People thought 29ers was a fade, until riders were winning races with them.

I have an earlier 29er, back when 29ers was expensive...then 2 years later, Gary Fisher via Trek made one for half the price with similar specs. My friends always called me a cheater when it came to logs, since the 29er was easier.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> I don't ride my road bike off the road.





DrSmile said:


> At least not on purpose...





factory feel said:


> I don't always ride my road bike off road, but when I do it's not on purpose.





DrSmile said:


> And that is probably the only time you do indeed wish you had disc brakes!


I regularly take my road bike off road. Sure, they are fire roads with only moderate grades, but I just think of it as somewhere else I can ride.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

We're lucky that all those drug addled hippies from the 70's became teachers and sprinkled enlightenment all over the thinking of subsequent generations. If only poor stupid consumers could snort a little of the "good stuff", maybe they too could see the light!

Where the hell were you when those corporate bass turds forced indexed shifting on us? It hurts when I think of the money I could have saved.


ziscwg said:


> In all seriousness, look at mtb and 650b. Those brainiacs fell for that "better" wheel size hook line and sinker. You cannot even buy a 26 in bike anymore. Is it better??? Some say yes, some can't tell. No one can test because the bike mfg don't make similar bikes in 26 and 650b


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Back east when I was racing a lot in the 90s, no I was not big on riding in the rain. Dry place to ride, esp in winter.
> 
> Now where I live in the PNW, it is wetter than the ocean half the year. Yet I have been using grip shift in the PNW since 1998 with never the slightest hint of trouble, on 5 different MTB now. I do hose off the bike after every muddy ride, and water no doubt gets in my current grip shift with the washdown (XO rear shifter). I ride the MTB more often in the cold wet season than the dry hot summer season, in fact.
> 
> ...


Nice,
Grip shifts, Shimmy XTs.......
The only thing preventing me from stealing it tonight is that it does not have Lefty on it.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

BCSaltchucker said:


>


holy rats nest, batman!


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> Where the hell were you when those corporate bass turds forced indexed shifting on us? It hurts when I think of the money I could have saved.


Playing high school football.


----------



## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

......


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> This is humorous on so many levels. Yes, Coppi did ride bikes that were inferior to Cavs bikes.
> 
> You say one thing and then point to the fallacy of that statement by supplying evidence to the contrary: "triathletes and cyclists alike have routinely ridden aerodynamically inferior equipment. There have been notable examples of a prominent triathlete dropping a bike sponsor because of it."
> 
> That is precisely what happens. Nobody who counts on winning to determine their income is going to knowingly use equipment that they feel does not serve that purpose.



You're comparing Coppi and Cav, now? 

What? Clearly you have nothing relevant to say and are just tossing crap at the wall in the hope that things get stinky enough that no one bothers calling you out on said crap.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

I ask again, what is the performance gain, ESPECIALLY in the wet? Your brakes don't determine how fast you can take a turn. That's your skill, balls, and grip. 

Disc brakes would help in braking late, but again, it does not determine how fast you can actually take a turn. 

That's the point seemingly everyone going on about the performance aspect is missing. You will still get dropped like a rock by a good descender with rim brakes REGARDLESS of what brakes you use, because that's not what is holding you back. 

Your tire choice will be far more important in cornering in the wet than your brakes. Start a thread about that!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

pedalbiker said:


> I ask again, what is the performance gain, ESPECIALLY in the wet? Your brakes don't determine how fast you can take a turn. That's your skill, balls, and grip.
> 
> Disc brakes would help in braking late, but again, it does not determine how fast you can actually take a turn.
> 
> ...


nevertheless, for a given skill set and equipment setup: the one able to brake the latest will be fastest.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I like em a lot. I have been a convert for 25 years when I first tried in on my Klein mtb race bike, still always swap in a grip shift for my rear shifter on all my MTB to this day. It is just better than triggers, imho. very precise feel. Can jump the whole block in a split second while the trigger guys are masturbating their triggers for a half minute.
> 
> However I never liked grip shift for the front derailleur, so I stick with trigger for that for 25 years also.
> 
> ...


That's funny, my MTB gripshift setup is the exact opposite. On my mid-90s hardtail, I love having Rapidfire for the rear, but I could never get the trim to work well for the front derailleaur, so I use Gripshift for the front and the micro-indexing is perfect. Now, if I only still rode that bike ever...

Shimano LX and Avid linear pull brakes have always worked fine for me on that bike, although I did have a nightmare experience with some weird Dia-Compe brakes that were impossible to adjust. Man, those were the days!


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## Wayne-O (Oct 8, 2014)

SwiftSolo, my brakes are Hope E2's. Hopefully they will be like yours and no drag. 
W


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You asked a question that some others might actually want an answer to. So I'll give it a shot in spite of the risk of aggravating the Napoleon complex in some. 

OK: I think most of us can agree that ABS brakes stop cars faster than mechanical brakes on both wet and dry pavement. The reason is that they apply maximum braking force immediately and with precision and can keep that force right at maximum without going but ever so slightly beyond for very short periods. That principle of accuracy and immediacy is what I'm getting to. 

Rim brakes never respond exactly the same nor do they provide for precise adjustments in stopping force. In mountain stages, rain, melting snow, temperature, and grit all have an impact on rims brakes. Rider's brains, applying normal human instinct, cause us all to allow for some margin on the probable survival side of the outcome when we apply brakes approaching hairpins (at least for survivors). Admittedly, the brains of riders with a lot of experience know where the line is better than the inexperienced. 

So, in a perfect world, you need your brakes to act exactly the same immediately and with accuracy regardless of conditions. When that is the case, " the probable survival side" is much faster and deeper into the approach than when it takes an undetermined number of revolutions just to squeegee the water and grit off the rim.

In the end, the argument of whether they work better will become apparent in the next six months. At that point the question can move on to "why" for everybody but the rather large congregation of the Luddite religion here of RBR. 

Incidentally, because they don't put dead competitors on the podium, thinking with your balls may get you a statue along some descent in the Alps, but it won't get you to the podium.

It would be great if everyone would go ride this new technology in the mountains before they voice their expert opinions. It would quickly take the discussion to "why does it work so well". 





pedalbiker said:


> I ask again, what is the performance gain, ESPECIALLY in the wet? Your brakes don't determine how fast you can take a turn. That's your skill, balls, and grip.
> !


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> It would be great if everyone would go ride this new technology in the mountains before they voice their expert opinions. It would quickly take the discussion to "why does it work so well".


most of us have lots of disc brake experience on mtn bikes, even on pavement and we still don't want them on our road bikes.

perhaps you are the one who is new to the technology?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

den bakker said:


> nevertheless, for a given skill set and equipment setup: the one able to brake the latest will be fastest.


eh, maybe true for 4 wheel racing

for 2 wheel racing, late braking is mostly used for overtaking. For fastest lap time, it's corner speed, not late braking. This is the case of the lesser than 1000cc displacement motos. For 1000cc motos, they rely less on corner speed and more on engine hp to get out of the corner. Look at motoGP, the fastest laptimes are usually from the run with the highest corner speed. Your typical cyclist ain't got the horsepower to shoot out of corners like a motorcycle. How many times can a cyclist brake late, then have to hammer to shoot out of corner so he won't be caught? 2-3 squirts and he's toast on the next climb? Only exception here is if the situation is all a descent to the finishline, most races don't have this sort of finish.

furthermore, in 2 wheel racing, when do you ever find a situation where 2 riders have the same skillsets and the same bike setup? It almost never happen, not in 2 wheel racing. Haven't seen one situation like that on the track

not saying disc brakes don't have their merits, but the talks in here make it sounds like disc is the next big thing in speed advantage. It aint if you ain't got the skill, and form discussion here, doesn't seem like folks are anywhere close to taking a sweeping 45mph turn, forget this fantasy of late braking into a hairpin to overtake for a hero move to the ER room


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

factory feel said:


> holy rats nest, batman!


I would like to go onesie for that (1x11) someday

but love having remote fork lockout, and dropper seatpost is mandatory here, so cables galore


----------



## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

I am originally a MTBer, I race them, race fatbikes and ride and occasionally race CX. All my bikes are Disc apart from my recently acquired road bike. I was holding out for a disc braked road bike with thru axles but they are not coming quick enough, so I got a steal on a rim brake roadie and I am enjoying it.

The consistency and modulation of disc brakes are in a different league and as soon as they are come out on a Tarmac, Canyon Ultimate, Giant TCR style road bike (good all rounder) I will be getting one, but must be thru axle.

Im not knocking rim brakes, my bike brakes really well with SwissStop black prince blocks on carbon rims, but I just like discs.

BTW, thru axles are a must as QR and the tiny clearance between disc and pad, will rub slightly when cranking on climbs.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> not saying disc brakes don't have their merits, but the talks in here make it sounds like disc is the next big thing in speed advantage. It aint if you ain't got the skill, and form discussion here, doesn't seem like folks are anywhere close to taking a sweeping 45mph turn, forget this fantasy of late braking into a hairpin to overtake for a hero move to the ER room


actually it's pretty much just you being up that straw man. 
keep it up. 
braking later would of course make a rider go faster but in almost all cases it's a rather small effect. 


I have no intentions swapping to them any time soon. but the only disadvantage would be the change for all bikes that would have to be done. but that is not much different than changes in hub width for example. we seemed to survive that just fine.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

so, no advantage, yet why are there so many articles from pros citing greater stopping power and shorter distances? hmmmm...below is just one of many such articles one could find with "the google."
Trek Factory Racing decline to use disc brakes at Tour Down Under | Cyclingnews.com


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Everybody becomes an experienced expert on the internet as it becomes apparent that they are clueless. I've also pointed out several times that "disc brake experience" on mountain bikes may be very different than "hydro disc brake" experience on either mountain or road bikes (I wouldn't include TRP as hydro disc brake experience). 

In the non-fantasy world, I have yet to meet a Shimano hydro disc road rider who did not think they were head and shoulders above whatever is second (but then again I don't get a chanced to ride with flat landers). Those who bought srams early hydro disc brakes will likely be hard to convince because they were a failure and were recalled without a suitable replacement for a long period of time.

Finally, the Giro should make it clear which of us is delusional about Shimanos hydro disc brakes. I'm betting that those who currently use them in the mountains already know. 

I look forward to hearing from you in June. Imagine the pleasure you'll get when you can flaunt proof that most pros are idiots who knowingly used inferior brakes and lost races in order to appease those greedy corporate bass turds who control everything--just like the hippies who taught you said they would.

Boy will I be sorry! 



factory feel said:


> most of us have lots of disc brake experience on mtn bikes, even on pavement and we still don't want them on our road bikes.
> 
> perhaps you are the one who is new to the technology?


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

den bakker said:


> actually it's pretty much just you being up that straw man.
> keep it up.
> braking later would of course make a rider go faster but in almost all cases it's a rather small effect.
> 
> ...


And you'll be dropped like a rock by a skilled rider on rim brakes all day long. You sound like the guy who believes in buying technology to go fast than to learn skill. Haven't seen you discussed anything about skill regarding fast descending, when skill is important. Go for it eh, you'll be dropped, like in adios!

corner speed rules
TurnFast! Race Driving Techniques for Heel Toe Downshift, Driving Line, Cornering, Braking, and More ? Cornering

Late braking is NOT essential for going fast. Late braking is mainly about TRACK POSITION, i.e, you're fighting for track position trying to pass or block another from passing you. Of course if you brake too late, you risk losing position too, or getting repass, or simply plant your face into the pavement. Sounds like a lot of the pro-disc experts in here don't know much about late braking. Late braking is only one part of overall race craft control, but goddamn sounds like disc brakes (and, ugh,. therefore late braking) is the solution to the misguided pro disc experts in here. 

Notice that I have not denied the slight superior of disc brake (in the dry), but the slight difference between a good rim brakes and good disc brake in the dry, will not be the difference maker between you being able to keep up with a guy on the down or being dropped like a rock. You need to understand this if you wish to avoid a bout to the ER room, eh. And btw, there are superb riders in my club who can pass motorycles down Mt Baldy and GMR here, all on rim brakes. It will be an eyeopener for you if you ever get a chance to ride with them.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> And you'll be dropped like a rock by a skilled rider on rim brakes all day long. You sound like the guy who believes in buying technology to go fast than to learn skill. Haven't seen you discussed anything about skill regarding fast descending, when skill is important. Go for it eh, you'll be dropped, like in adios!
> 
> corner speed rules
> TurnFast! Race Driving Techniques for Heel Toe Downshift, Driving Line, Cornering, Braking, and More ? Cornering
> ...


ok im tired of your strawman beating and assumption. You'll have a good day and have fun with fredrico


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> Let me make sure I understand. You are suggesting that pro teams and their major sponsors at the Giro and TDF are going to let a component supplier force them to use inferior products?
> 
> In lower level racing, component manufacturers do in fact use Pros to help with R&D on new components. Disc brakes were and are new to cross and remain in the R&D stages where wallowing in freezing mud is concerned. Cross is not exactly the Giro or the TDF--at least not yet.


All I'm suggesting is that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. 
You say sponsors would never put riders on stuff that doesn't work and riders wouldn't use it. Then when presented with evidence it does happen you say the riders should have known better and that sponsor sucks (paraphrasing obviously). So you've effectively said two opposite things and appear to be sticking to each of them.

Now you're moving the goal post again.

You really need to either abandon the speak now/learn facts later approach or learn to accept that if you shoot from the hip you're going to miss now and then and have the decency to face it rather than moving the goal posts.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> most of us have lots of disc brake experience on mtn bikes, even on pavement and we still don't want them on our road bikes.
> 
> perhaps you are the one who is new to the technology?



Speak for yourself!! I have lots of experience on disc on my mtn bike and I will definitely get disc on my next road bike. The hydro disc brakes on my mtb are amazing, the feel alone is worth it and they contribute to the enjoyment of the ride.





pedalbiker said:


> I ask again, what is the performance gain, ESPECIALLY in the wet? Your brakes don't determine how fast you can take a turn. That's your skill, balls, and grip.
> 
> Disc brakes would help in braking late, but again, it does not determine how fast you can actually take a turn.
> 
> ...





aclinjury said:


> And you'll be dropped like a rock by a skilled rider on rim brakes all day long. You sound like the guy who believes in buying technology to go fast than to learn skill. Haven't seen you discussed anything about skill regarding fast descending, when skill is important. Go for it eh, you'll be dropped, like in adios!
> 
> corner speed rules
> TurnFast! Race Driving Techniques for Heel Toe Downshift, Driving Line, Cornering, Braking, and More ? Cornering
> ...


I am an excellent descender, I too pass motorcycles and cars down mountain passes. Myself and another rider are the lunatic descenders in our group and on our local technical descent (think Latigo Canyon rd) we are two of the fastest riders down the mountain. He works at a bike shop and regularly swaps between a disc brake bike and a rim brake bike, I can stay with him when he is on the rim brake bike, but when he rides the disc bike, he is gone! Every corner he chips away more and more to the point where he is way ahead of me. I've even left a good 10+ seconds before him once, he caught and passed me within two miles [of a 5+ mile descent]. And we are talking going for it, 40-50mph, cutting corners, pushing the comfort level kind of stuff. The consistency of the rim brakes sucks when pushing like that.

And more importantly, I want disc brakes for when I need to go slow down the mountain.:thumbsup:


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> holy rats nest, batman!


Your are under the impression that mtb riders care about aero. Ah, no.

Well, if you do consider it, it's like 24th on the list. Tires, suspension, brakes, dropper posts, all play a bigger part in going fast on dirt.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> You asked a question that some others might actually want an answer to. So I'll give it a shot in spite of the risk of aggravating the Napoleon complex in some.
> 
> OK: I think most of us can agree that ABS brakes stop cars faster than mechanical brakes on both wet and dry pavement. The reason is that they apply maximum braking force immediately and with precision and can keep that force right at maximum without going but ever so slightly beyond for very short periods. That principle of accuracy and immediacy is what I'm getting to.
> 
> ...


Hey, we hijacked this thread fair and square and you go answering the OPs question?? Crap, now I have to post at least 145 irrelevant and misleading posts to get my jacked thread back.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Neither pro riders nor their team owners or sponsors would ride or support bikes with components that they thought were inferior.

I think this thread is about THE PRO PELOTON and most of us associate that with professional road racing. 

Secondly, it may be that unsuspecting cross pros were convinced by sram that they had a good product. I would agree that may not be a sign of brilliance, but being suckered is different than riding components that you know are inferior.



Jay Strongbow said:


> All I'm suggesting is that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
> You say sponsors would never put riders on stuff that doesn't work and riders wouldn't use it. Then when presented with evidence it does happen you say the riders should have known better and that sponsor sucks (paraphrasing obviously). So you've effectively said two opposite things and appear to be sticking to each of them.
> 
> Now you're moving the goal post again.
> ...


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> most of us have lots of disc brake experience on mtn bikes, even on pavement and we still don't want them on our road bikes.
> 
> perhaps you are the one who is new to the technology?


Speak for yourself . I am not even part of most of this "us". 

I WANT my CAAD12 Ultegra Di2 disk bike NOW!!!!!!!!!

Those 6 mile, 2000+ ft descents with wide 48 mm deep carbon rims are calling me...............


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> not saying disc brakes don't have their merits, but the talks in here make it sounds like disc is the next big thing in speed advantage. It aint if you ain't got the skill, and form discussion here, doesn't seem like folks are anywhere close to taking a sweeping 45mph turn, forget this fantasy of late braking into a hairpin to overtake for a hero move to the ER room


They don't have much of a direct effect on speed. They do allow for deep carbon rimmed wheels that can be used on long descents without brake or tire issues. 

So, for me, some deeper carbon hoops going 40 mph down will make me faster as I chew my stem to keep as areo as possible.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> Finally, the Giro should make it clear which of us is delusional about Shimanos hydro disc brakes. I'm betting that those who currently use them in the mountains already know.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy will I be sorry!


Yeah, those shimano hydros XT M8000 suck balls. I like to waste my money. So, i replaced all my current brakes with Shimano hydros (XT M8000)

You don't know until you hydro[SUP]TM[/SUP]

I just made that up and I already registered for a trademark.


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## jrider05 (Aug 19, 2015)

Does anyone ever experience the subtle screeching noise of the rotor slightly rubbing the pad when riding a cross wind with disc brakes? And the faster you are going the more it wants to do it. 

Not much is more annoying than almost maxing yourself out physically on a grueling open road rolling climb into a head/cross wind and having your rotor making noises at you while you push through the pain. 

I'm in the camp of loving disc brakes on the mtb but don't think they are needed on the road. But in saying that it's probably inevitable in the next 5 years that all road bikes will have them and it's something we just have to deal with. 

Also note: I'm a rookie road rider and don't have multiple road bikes with multiple wheels I'd have to think about changing over when the inevitable does happen. So I'm pretty open at this point as to what ever way the industry decides to go. 
Although I'm looking at purchasing my first new road bike hopefully this next season and the time will come where I'll have to decide.... disc, or no disc.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

jrider05 said:


> Does anyone ever experience the subtle screeching noise of the rotor slightly rubbing the pad when riding a cross wind with disc brakes? And the faster you are going the more it wants to do it.



That is a subtle set up tweak. It's not always easy to fix either. A two piece rotor will help that if you don't have one already.

What brake system do you have now?


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## jrider05 (Aug 19, 2015)

ziscwg said:


> That is a subtle set up tweak. It's not always easy to fix either. A two piece rotor will help that if you don't have one already.
> 
> What brake system do you have now?



I agree. I'm just pulling at straws. The only real experience I have with discs on the road is a commuter bike or riding the mtb on the road. 

I usually ride Shimano brakes but never had a two piece rotor. 

I'm imagining a 15 rider group ride with a bunch of subtle screeching going on. Along with that crosswind affect it also tends to happen when you're out of the saddle shifting your weight back and forth pushing and pulling through each pedal stroke and again mainly when there's a rough wind. 

And again... just pulling at straws. 

All real world disc issues but can be adjusted with proper maintenance.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

ozzybmx said:


> I am originally a MTBer, I race them, race fatbikes and ride and occasionally race CX. All my bikes are Disc apart from my recently acquired road bike. I was holding out for a disc braked road bike with thru axles but they are not coming quick enough, so I got a steal on a rim brake roadie and I am enjoying it.
> 
> The consistency and modulation of disc brakes are in a different league and as soon as they are come out on a Tarmac, Canyon Ultimate, Giant TCR style road bike (good all rounder) I will be getting one, but must be thru axle.
> 
> ...


OK I too will not mind getting discs on the road bike some day also. I just hope the frame anf fork (and thus axles) are up to the task

But I will be seriously POd that I will be unable to use any of our 5 sets of nice non-disc road wheelsets the wife and I have accumulated. Maybe I should start selling some off now before they tank? ha I know, this is not going to happen over night


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> OK I too will not mind getting discs on the road bike some day also. I just hope the frame anf fork (and thus axles) are up to the task
> 
> But I will be seriously POd that I will be unable to use any of our 5 sets of nice non-disc road wheelsets the wife and I have accumulated. Maybe I should start selling some off now before they tank? ha I know, this is not going to happen over night


considering one can still get 6speed freewheels it will probably be more than a few years before spare parts for current groups are not available. sure at some point you cannot get frames easily for the wheels but hopefully you have ridden enough at that point the rims are worn out.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Speak for yourself!! I have lots of experience on disc on my mtn bike and I will definitely get disc on my next road bike. The hydro disc brakes on my mtb are amazing, the feel alone is worth it and they contribute to the enjoyment of the ride.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Personally, I've only ridden Latigo a couple times to be feeling comfortable pushing the envelops, and Latigo as I recall has some pretty rough pavement sections, don't know if the fixed that already. Furthermore, I've heard nasty stories of the hate relationships between cyclists and drivers on Latigo, so i avoid it. From my area, I usually do Mt Baldy. From Mt Baldy to the Village is a 2000' drop in 4 miles, with a few 18%-20% drop into a hairpin, I'm pretty sure it's a technical descent by most standards, and honestly I haven't had any close moments with rim brakes. Granted, I use almunimum rims. Carbon rims, now that's a different discussion.

But back to you and your buddy. You understand that if you and your buddy are going down Latigo at 40-50 mph, you guys are way above average, even when compared to racers. I'm pretty sure most guys with disc won't even come close to that speed. If we're talking about pushing the envelops, like what you guys are doing, if we're talking about a few seconds, then sure, disc has a bit of an advantage, and my main contention is not the slight advatage of disc. My contention is with this foolhearted beliefs that disc will sudden turn a turd into a gold nugget. When 99% of the cyclists hammer down Latigo at 40-50 mph, then I'll change my view. But, the reality is most cyclists don't even close to maxing out the rim brakes yet, and now they're thinking disc will make them go faster.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> They don't have much of a direct effect on speed. They do allow for deep carbon rimmed wheels that can be used on long descents without brake or tire issues.
> 
> So, for me, some deeper carbon hoops going 40 mph down will make me faster as I chew my stem to keep as areo as possible.


now this is a legit argument use of disc! Disc will make braking on deep carbon rims feel like heaven compared to rim brakes. However, I'm also one who believes that most riders should be on aluminum rims. I guess manufacturers would love for everyone to start buying new carbon rims and disc bikes! More money to their pockets. I'm one who doesn't think think that the cycling experience is about buying the latest carbon rim and hydro disc and electronic shifting.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

jrider05 said:


> I agree. I'm just pulling at straws. The only real experience I have with discs on the road is a commuter bike or riding the mtb on the road.
> 
> I usually ride Shimano brakes but never had a two piece rotor.
> 
> ...


So it's on the front???

Get the Shimano RT86 rotor (assuming 6 bolt hub). The stiff carrier should mitigate that slight flex that is causing the rotor to just touch the pads.

Another solution is to tweak the mounting to compensate for that flex. This gets tricky to get everything quiet. The wheel, fork and rotor are flexing just perfectly to have the rotor touch the pad. A miniscule adjustment to the mount of the caliper in the right direction will eliminate this. This is tough to get everything right. We are talking a sub millimeter adjustment.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

what will the tv guys say when the brakes start squealing in unison on live tv?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


> what will the tv guys say the brakes start squealing in unison on live tv?


reminds me of Lemond saying that it was his brakes not him squealing. must have been a fairy tale since apparently only disk brakes can squeal .


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

den bakker said:


> reminds me of Lemond saying that it was his brakes not him squealing. must have been a fairy tale since apparently only disk brakes can squeal .


discs squeal 9:1 over rim brakes


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> what will the tv guys say when the brakes start squealing in unison on live tv?



You won't hear it over all your whining 


.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


> discs squeal 9:1 over rim brakes


Why do I get the feeling that ratio is pulled painfully from a dark place?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

MoPho said:


> Speak for yourself!! I have lots of experience on disc on my mtn bike and I will definitely get disc on my next road bike. The hydro disc brakes on my mtb are amazing, the feel alone is worth it and they contribute to the enjoyment of the ride.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and so humble too...


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

den bakker said:


> Why do I get the feeling that ratio is pulled painfully from a dark place?


I was with nine other cyclists, one had discs, it squealed.

proof!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


> I was with nine other cyclists, one had discs, it squealed.
> 
> proof!


you misspelled "poof" 
which was the sound when all the relevance of your posts evaporated.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> and so humble too...


If you say so….


.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> I was with nine other cyclists, one had discs, it squealed.
> 
> proof!



My rim brakes squeal


Proof!


.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

den bakker said:


> nevertheless, for a given skill set and equipment setup: the one able to brake the latest will be fastest.


Uh, no. The one going into the turn and out of the turn in the least amount of time will be fastest. 

Because that's how actual speed works: covering a set distance in the shortest amount of time possible. 

A person braking later but harder will cover the distance slower. 

A person braking earlier but not enough may not even make the turn...

Your post precisely makes my point about missing what cornering actually entails.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

......


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> Everybody becomes an experienced expert on the internet as it becomes apparent that they are clueless.


I'm a cat 1 in road, mtn. and cross. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on my experience riding a bike being more significant than yours.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

ziscwg said:


> They don't have much of a direct effect on speed. They do allow for deep carbon rimmed wheels that can be used on long descents without brake or tire issues.
> 
> So, for me, some deeper carbon hoops going 40 mph down will make me faster as I chew my stem to keep as areo as possible.



This I do agree with and is one of the more favorable points for discs for the masses because so many people can't descend well enough or know how to brake well enough to avoid baking their carbon rims


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

MoPho said:


> My rim brakes squeal
> 
> 
> Proof!
> ...


likely a set up issue.

do you do your own maintenance?

if so, I could assist you.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

pedalbiker said:


> Uh, no. The one going into the turn and out of the turn in the least amount of time will be fastest.
> 
> Because that's how actual speed works: covering a set distance in the shortest amount of time possible.
> 
> ...


On behalf of all of us who don't know "what cornering actually entails" it's good to have someone whose brilliance and keen insight can articulate such a complex concept. I only wish you had told me before I wasted my money on discs.

Boy are those pros in for a surprise this spring when they go against those with your wisdom--you know, assuming such people exist in the peloton.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> Boy are those pros in for a surprise this spring in the peloton.


can't see it coming together by this season.

some teams might try it but I can't see the big boys being early adopters.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> likely a set up issue.
> 
> do you do your own maintenance?
> 
> if so, I could assist you.


Same could be said of disc brakes

And no thank you, I took care of it myself


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## BigTex91 (Nov 5, 2013)

pedalbiker said:


> Uh, no. The one going into the turn and out of the turn in the least amount of time will be fastest.
> 
> Because that's how actual speed works: covering a set distance in the shortest amount of time possible.
> 
> ...


To quote you... Uh, no. Three of your sentences are correct. One is horribly wrong. A person braking later but harder will NOT cover the distance slower, if the speed at the end of the braking is the same. If the mid-corner speed is the same, and one person brakes harder in a shorter distance, they are carrying more speed into the turn, and thus spending less time in the first part of the corner. Mid-corner to exit don't change with shorter braking distances. 

Let's say that max cornering speed is 15mph. Approaching the corner, the maximum speed is 30. Say the longer braking distance is 100 feet with rim brakes, the shortest distance is 66 feet with discs (purely hypothetical for discussion purposes). The person with the discs is at 30mph for 34 feet longer than the guy with rim brakes. Thus he is spending LESS time in the turn, not more.

If what you said is correct, then there are millions of dollars being wasted by auto racing teams and manufacturers to build better braking systems. But there are some pretty smart engineers analyzing mounds of data that prove otherwise.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

den bakker said:


> ok im tired of your strawman beating and assumption. You'll have a good day and have fun with fredrico


you're a rookie? never raced have you? How about go watch some real racing, like motorcycle racing? Plenty of guys late braking in an attempt to pass another, but only to get crossed up again midturn and be repassed on the way out. PLENTY. If you say that latest braker always be the fastest, then every guy late braking must always be first to exit the corner because he's "faster" right? Not! You sir are a rookie at this. If you don't understand that late braking is more of a track positioning technique, then you just don't understand racin' and braking, plain and simple. Done explaining to a rookie.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

BigTex91 said:


> To quote you... Uh, no. Three of your sentences are correct. One is horribly wrong. A person braking later but harder will NOT cover the distance slower, if the speed at the end of the braking is the same. If the mid-corner speed is the same, and one person brakes harder in a shorter distance, they are carrying more speed into the turn, and thus spending less time in the first part of the corner. Mid-corner to exit don't change with shorter braking distances.
> 
> Let's say that max cornering speed is 15mph. Approaching the corner, the maximum speed is 30. Say the longer braking distance is 100 feet with rim brakes, the shortest distance is 66 feet with discs (purely hypothetical for discussion purposes). The person with the discs is at 30mph for 34 feet longer than the guy with rim brakes. Thus he is spending LESS time in the turn, not more.
> 
> If what you said is correct, then there are millions of dollars being wasted by auto racing teams and manufacturers to build better braking systems. But there are some pretty smart engineers analyzing mounds of data that prove otherwise.


Ugh, you forgot about momentum. The guy braking later actually carries more speed COMING into a corner, but his momentum and his speed at the END of his braking, and certainly around the ensuing corner, is NOT higher. This is proven time and again in actual lap times professional 2- and 4- wheel racing. Corner speed is still king if going fast is your goal. But the reason why anyone would late brake into a corner is not because that is how he hopes to go fastest around the track, but that is how he uses late braking to gain or defend track position (it's called track positioning), and in racing, track positioning is as important as corner speed, but the two techniques are not the same, and are not used in different situations. Track position is important in motorsport racing. In endurance road bicycle racing, track positioning isn't all that important. There are certain cases where it's important to fight for position to prepare for a flat sprint, but this is more of a team effort than an individual effort. For 99% of the general cycling public, nobody should be thinking about late braking or track positioning, unless they fancy a visit to ER room.

I said it before and I'll say it again, go watch motorcycle racing. Watch the late braker overtaking another guy going into a corner. The late braker is not always the first guy out of the corner. Late braker can be crossed up again mid corner. Late braker's strategy will only work if he can block the other guy from repassing him mid corner. Usually the late braker is actually SLOWER around a corner, so he'll just position his bike to block the guy he just passed. But his success is due to his blocking, not his corner speed. And that is why when 2 guys are fighting each other trying to out-brake one another, they both will go slower, their laptimes suffer, and they both will tend go slower then the rest of the field.

And your example of the rim brake guy stopping in 100 ft and the disc brake guy stopping in 66 feet, at 30 mph,..is, how shall I put it, a very very lobsided and unrealistic example. Sure make up numbers to fit your hypothetical situation, but it just don't exist. Reason is a bicycle equipped with rim brakes, traveling at 50 mph, can pretty much stop in almost the same distance as a car or motorcycle (in the dry). So a rim and disc brake bicycle won't have anywhere close to the braking distance discrepancy you came up with. I know you were trying to make an example, but it's an unrealistic one.

Pedalbiker knows what he's talking about.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Personally, I've only ridden Latigo a couple times to be feeling comfortable pushing the envelops, and Latigo as I recall has some pretty rough pavement sections, don't know if the fixed that already. Furthermore, I've heard nasty stories of the hate relationships between cyclists and drivers on Latigo, so i avoid it. From my area, I usually do Mt Baldy. From Mt Baldy to the Village is a 2000' drop in 4 miles, with a few 18%-20% drop into a hairpin, I'm pretty sure it's a technical descent by most standards, and honestly I haven't had any close moments with rim brakes. Granted, I use almunimum rims. Carbon rims, now that's a different discussion.
> 
> But back to you and your buddy. You understand that if you and your buddy are going down Latigo at 40-50 mph, you guys are way above average, even when compared to racers. I'm pretty sure most guys with disc won't even come close to that speed. If we're talking about pushing the envelops, like what you guys are doing, if we're talking about a few seconds, then sure, disc has a bit of an advantage, and my main contention is not the slight advatage of disc. My contention is with this foolhearted beliefs that disc will sudden turn a turd into a gold nugget. When 99% of the cyclists hammer down Latigo at 40-50 mph, then I'll change my view. But, the reality is most cyclists don't even close to maxing out the rim brakes yet, and now they're thinking disc will make them go faster.



I wasn't talking about Latigo, I know you're from socal so I said "think Latigo" for reference to the kind of technical road I am talking about. 

No one was suggesting that disc would "turn a turd into a gold nugget". Any technology that touts a performance gain, whether disc, aero, weight, etc. is going to require a skilled rider to fully exploit the advantage. The discussion was about whether there is a performance gain with discs in the pro peloton, it would be safe to assume that pro riders aren't "turds" and can get more out of the disc brakes. My example shows (albeit anecdotally) that all things being equal the disc bike can be significantly faster.

That said, the average consumer would benefit even more from the added safety and control because they are the ones who tend to lack confidence descending or not be good at braking. And as I said earlier, I like the idea of disc not because I need to go faster, but because I need to go slower 




> you're a rookie? never raced have you? How about go watch some real racing, like motorcycle racing? Plenty of guys late braking in an attempt to pass another, but only to get crossed up again midturn and be repassed on the way out. PLENTY. If you say that latest braker always be the fastest, then every guy late braking must always be first to exit the corner because he's "faster" right? Not! You sir are a rookie at this. If you don't understand that late braking is more of a track positioning technique, then you just don't understand racin' and braking, plain and simple. Done explaining to a rookie.


Your above example implies that the rider screwed up the corner after late braking and thus being passed, that doesn't prove that late braking isn't faster. Cornering and exiting are different subjects and irrelevant to the discussion of braking performance. Of course if one late brakes but is slower through the corner, the advantage is lost, but fact is late braking means you are carrying speed longer and that gets you to the corner first, therefore you are faster (up to that point, then you have to follow through on the corner  ) 


As I noted before, my buddy and I are fairly equal when he is on the rim bike, but with disc he is consistently taking time out of me by getting to the corners before I can since I have to brake earlier and less aggressively. The difference is a couple of bike lengths vs I almost can't even see him anymore. This happened over several rides and each time the result was the same.


I should also mention, the time he caught and passed me, he was screaming "disc brakes are awesome!" as he went by 



.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> I wasn't talking about Latigo, I know you're from socal so I said "think Latigo" for reference to the kind of technical road I am talking about.
> 
> No one was suggesting that disc would "turn a turd into a gold nugget". Any technology that touts a performance gain, whether disc, aero, weight, etc. is going to require a skilled rider to fully exploit the advantage. The discussion was about whether there is a performance gain with discs in the pro peloton, it would be safe to assume that pro riders aren't "turds" and can get more out of the disc brakes. My example shows (albeit anecdotally) that all things being equal the disc bike can be significantly faster.
> 
> ...


I can't really dissect why your buddy is faster than you on disc. Just way too many factors for me to even consider, and honestly I don't have that much interest in it knowing why your buddy is faster than you other than that's your personal story. I do Mt Baldy descent plenty, it's much faster and more technical than Latigo. I find myself to be adequate with rim and aluminum. Carbon wheels, that's a different sotry. I'll leave it at that.

However, regarding lap times and late braking and corner speed. Professional racing, professional telemetry, is what I trust. According the guys in Formula1 and especially MotoGP and WSBK, the fastest way around a track usually involves smooth higher coner speed, high exit speed, not late braking. This is shown to be true time again via onboard telemetry. That's the bottomline. If you want show me any credible source that says that late braking is a consistent strategy to go fast, I'm listening.

and btw, when you brake late, you also have much higher chance to screw up (after a pass). The two events are not mutually exclusive, and that is because the limiting factor dictating the two events is traction. Said it before and saying it again, late braking is more of an ontrack positioning strategy, and basically it's a strategy where you put all your eggs in one basket, a make it or "brake" it strategy. You pass someone, you also make sure you block him from passing you. It ain't a go fast strategy. Why do you think that when 2 riders are constantly battling each other trying to outbrake one another, BOTH of them tend to go SLOWER then their individual lap times alone? Watch motorcycle racing sometimes. Two guys battling and overtaking each other will 1) be caught by the guys from behind, and 2) be dropped by the guys already in front. Baam! Cmon now.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

MoPho said:


> (snip)
> 
> 
> I should also mention, the time he caught and passed me, he was screaming "disc brakes are awesome!" as he went by
> ...


This made me lol.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> I can't really dissect why your buddy is faster than you on disc. Just way too many factors for me to even consider, and honestly I don't have that much interest in it knowing why your buddy is faster than you other than that's your personal story. I do Mt Baldy descent plenty, it's much faster and more technical than Latigo. I find myself to be adequate with rim and aluminum. Carbon wheels, that's a different sotry. I'll leave it at that.
> 
> However, regarding lap times and late braking and corner speed. Professional racing, professional telemetry, is what I trust. According the guys in Formula1 and especially MotoGP and WSBK, the fastest way around a track usually involves smooth higher coner speed, high exit speed, not late braking. This is shown to be true time again via onboard telemetry. That's the bottomline. If you want show me any credible source that says that late braking is a consistent strategy to go fast, I'm listening.
> 
> *and btw, when you brake late, you also have much higher chance to screw up (after a pass). The two events are not mutually exclusive, and that is because the limiting factor dictating the two events is traction. Said it before and saying it again, late braking is more of an ontrack positioning strategy, and basically it's a strategy where you put all your eggs in one basket, a make it or "brake" it strategy. You pass someone, you also make sure you block him from passing you. It ain't a go fast strategy. Why do you think that when 2 riders are constantly battling each other trying to outbrake one another, BOTH of them tend to go SLOWER then their individual lap times alone? Watch motorcycle racing sometimes. Two guys battling and overtaking each other will 1) be caught by the guys from behind, and 2) be dropped by the guys already in front. Baam! Cmon now*.



Simple, because they are putting their efforts into blocking and avoiding each other rather than being smooth. This is not necessarily a scenario that plays out in descending a mountain on a bicycle, nor is there the luxury of being able to take the same corner over and over to know the best way through, so irrelevant. Descending is more akin to Rally, and I guarantee you they are not braking early for the corners. 
There have been many cases where a bike race was won in the descent. If you can late brake, or perhaps a better term for you is "threshold brake" (reality it is a bit of both, plus trail braking), then you have an advantage. But you are correct that it takes skill, but so does winning races. 

My experience has shown me that there can be a performance gain with disc, which was the question being asked. And every person I've known to spend any significant time on a disc road bike has raved about the braking.

I will add, my buddy is faster not just because of late/threshold braking, but because he has more confidence in his brakes. I have to leave more room on the table….




> I can't really dissect why your buddy is faster than you on disc. Just way too many factors for me to even consider, and honestly I don't have that much interest in it knowing why your buddy is faster than you other than that's your personal story. I do Mt Baldy descent plenty, it's much faster and more technical than Latigo. I find myself to be adequate with rim and aluminum. Carbon wheels, that's a different sotry. I'll leave it at that.



Well you sure have a lot of interest in coming up with BS reasons to knock disc brakes. And toe clips, down-tube shifters, heavy steel frames, etc. are all adequate too. Why would you not want something better than adequate?


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I think if road discs were that important, they would have come out a lot sooner than now.

yeah, there are some out but the rate is very slow.

people are reluctant and the factories know it's a tough sell.

I mean they already have them perfected on mtb's so it's not like starting from scratch.


I think we're at the point of diminishing returns and someone's gonna lose a lot of *$* when this experiment fails.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

[QUOTEI think if road discs were that important, they would have come out a lot sooner than now.][/QUOTE]


I remember seeing disc brakes around in the 70s and I believe that disc brakes were being experimented with for some time. I think the 70's version was freakishly heavy and they were dropped due to lack of interest. 

They might sell this time but I am going to skip it. I am good with my present bike.

They say Pinnacles National Park is headed my way 1/2in per 100 years. When It gets here I will buy the new stuff. It's got 30 miles to go.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

factory feel said:


> because they will be told to do so by the money people.
> 
> it won't matter what they want or don't want.


Troll much? Why couldn't any of the other countless road bike disc brake threads serve as your platform to be a douche? Not enough personal validation potential?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Evidently the riders were shut out of the disc-brake meetings...LOL. The UCI never changes.

Shut out of UCI meetings, union leery of disc brakes - VeloNews.com


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

BikeLayne said:


> [QUOTEI think if road discs were that important, they would have come out a lot sooner than now.]



I remember seeing disc brakes around in the 70s and I believe that disc brakes were being experimented with for some time. I think the 70's version was freakishly heavy and they were dropped due to lack of interest. 

They might sell this time but I am going to skip it. I am good with my present bike.

They say Pinnacles National Park is headed my way 1/2in per 100 years. When It gets here I will buy the new stuff. It's only got 30 miles to go.

On the Pro thing I guess I don't care what they ride on. If disc's are safer then great. If they lack safety then the riders have to speak out.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 23, 2013)

3 years ago, many said that discs on CX bikes were stupid and they would never go discs... all those people are now on flash disc CX bikes.

Never say never.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

ozzybmx said:


> 3 years ago, many said that discs on CX bikes were stupid and they would never go discs... all those people are now on flash disc CX bikes.
> 
> Never say never.


As you say: Never say never and disc are in the shops waiting for a customer.


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> eh, maybe true for 4 wheel racing
> 
> for 2 wheel racing, late braking is mostly used for overtaking. For fastest lap time, it's corner speed, not late braking. This is the case of the lesser than 1000cc displacement motos. For 1000cc motos, they rely less on corner speed and more on engine hp to get out of the corner. Look at motoGP, the fastest laptimes are usually from the run with the highest corner speed. Your typical cyclist ain't got the horsepower to shoot out of corners like a motorcycle. How many times can a cyclist brake late, then have to hammer to shoot out of corner so he won't be caught? 2-3 squirts and he's toast on the next climb? Only exception here is if the situation is all a descent to the finishline, most races don't have this sort of finish.
> 
> ...


On dry level ground, rim brakes work well enough that there isn't much difference between them and disc brakes, so other factors such as weight or aerodynamic drag may make more of a difference.

On wet roads, I think most can agree that disc brakes have more stopping power. If not, please go back and look at independent studies (e.g. GCN)

On descents in the dry, the main reason why disc brakes will help, is that carbon rims will get hot and then the braking won't work as well. Also, the carbon may transfer the heat to the tire and cause a blowout. So disc brakes will help more with carbon rims than with aluminum rims.

But then again, how many pros use carbon rims?

GH


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> Ugh, you forgot about momentum. The guy braking later actually carries more speed COMING into a corner, but his momentum and his speed at the END of his braking, and certainly around the ensuing corner, is NOT higher. This is proven time and again in actual lap times professional 2- and 4- wheel racing. Corner speed is still king if going fast is your goal. But the reason why anyone would late brake into a corner is not because that is how he hopes to go fastest around the track, but that is how he uses late braking to gain or defend track position (it's called track positioning), and in racing, track positioning is as important as corner speed, but the two techniques are not the same, and are not used in different situations. Track position is important in motorsport racing. In endurance road bicycle racing, track positioning isn't all that important. There are certain cases where it's important to fight for position to prepare for a flat sprint, but this is more of a team effort than an individual effort. For 99% of the general cycling public, nobody should be thinking about late braking or track positioning, unless they fancy a visit to ER room.
> 
> I said it before and I'll say it again, go watch motorcycle racing. Watch the late braker overtaking another guy going into a corner. The late braker is not always the first guy out of the corner. Late braker can be crossed up again mid corner. Late braker's strategy will only work if he can block the other guy from repassing him mid corner. Usually the late braker is actually SLOWER around a corner, so he'll just position his bike to block the guy he just passed. But his success is due to his blocking, not his corner speed. And that is why when 2 guys are fighting each other trying to out-brake one another, they both will go slower, their laptimes suffer, and they both will tend go slower then the rest of the field.
> 
> ...


I think the problem is that you and Pedalbiker are good racers, so you are taking their term, late braking, literally. 

They're not actually talking about late braking, they're talking about better braking, where you don't have to start braking as early, but you finish braking at the same point and same speed as someone that doesn't have brakes that are as good as the first guy. I'd call this, later braking, rather than, late braking. 

So, if one cyclist has better brakes, they can start braking later, but finish braking at the exact same point with the exact same speed, so they get the benefit of going full speed for a few more feet. In a pack, it probably won't make a difference, because you'll be constrained by others in the pack, but if you've got the freedom to take your own line with your own braking, like the 2 guys on Latigo, then it will make a small difference at each turn, and those small differences can add up. 

GH


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Simple, because they are putting their efforts into blocking and avoiding each other rather than being smooth. This is not necessarily a scenario that plays out in descending a mountain on a bicycle, nor is there the luxury of being able to take the same corner over and over to know the best way through, so irrelevant. Descending is more akin to Rally, and I guarantee you they are not braking early for the corners.
> There have been many cases where a bike race was won in the descent. If you can late brake, or perhaps a better term for you is "threshold brake" (reality it is a bit of both, plus trail braking), then you have an advantage. But you are correct that it takes skill, but so does winning races.
> 
> My experience has shown me that there can be a performance gain with disc, which was the question being asked. And every person I've known to spend any significant time on a disc road bike has raved about the braking.
> ...


BS reasons? How about tell me where the BS is in my reasoning? I've asked you and anyone in here to show me credible sources of preaching that late braking makes you go fastest, consistently. I'm still waiting for an answer. I've said that late braking is often more of a strategy of track positioning than going fast, and I've yet to hear any rebututal. I have stated that motogp teams, F1 teams, WSB teams, their telemetry, and their riders have all shown that the fastest way around a track is often time does not involve the same late braking techniques they use in a race (where they sometime will be asked to defend position). I have stated practices preached by professionals, backed up by telemetry data. And here you are, telling me my reasons are BS? Don't follow GP and F1 and their intricacies, do you? Thanks bro, but I've riding motos of all cc's on tracks close 10 years now. I think I know what I'm talking about a bit. I've beaten guys with superior equipment, and I've been beaten by guys with lesser equipment. Been there done that, seen all the bs excuses when guys go slow, blame everything except their skill. Next. 

At this point, this thing is a dead horse. I'm done, and out, mah mang!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ColaJacket said:


> I thing the problem is that you and Pedalbiker are good racers, so you are taking their term, late braking, literally.
> 
> They're not actually talking about late braking, they're talking about better braking, where you don't have to start braking as early, but you finish braking at the same point and same speed as someone that doesn't have brakes that are as good as the first guy. I'd call this, later braking, rather than, late braking.
> 
> ...


you got a point. Maybe I'm talking from a different perspective.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> BS reasons? How about tell me where the BS is in my reasoning? I've asked you and anyone in here to show me credible sources of preaching that late braking makes you go fastest, consistently. I'm still waiting for an answer. I've said that late braking is often more of a strategy of track positioning than going fast, and I've yet to hear any rebututal. I have stated that motogp teams, F1 teams, WSB teams, their telemetry, and their riders have all shown that the fastest way around a track is often time does not involve the same late braking techniques they use in a race (where they sometime will be asked to defend position). I have stated practices preached by professionals, backed up by telemetry data. And here you are, telling me my reasons are BS? Don't follow GP and F1 and their intricacies, do you? Thanks bro, but I've riding motos of all cc's on tracks close 10 years now. I think I know what I'm talking about a bit. I've beaten guys with superior equipment, and I've been beaten by guys with lesser equipment. Been there done that, seen all the bs excuses when guys go slow, blame everything except their skill. Next.
> 
> At this point, this thing is a dead horse. I'm done, and out, mah mang!



If you are trying to get a good time and you are not waiting until the last possible moment to brake, then you are slow. PERIOD! 
Using late/threshold braking as a strategy for position is not relevant to the scenario I presented which is more of a "Touge" race, there is no passing. It should have been obvious to you that the discussion is in the sense that ColaJacket brought up.

And yes, you frequently show up in these disc brake threads and start spewing various BS that gets debunked, in fact we've had this same discussion before. 



.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> BS reasons? How about tell me where the BS is in my reasoning? I've asked you and anyone in here to show me credible sources of preaching that late braking makes you go fastest, consistently. I'm still waiting for an answer. I've said that late braking is often more of a strategy of track positioning than going fast, and I've yet to hear any rebututal. I have stated that motogp teams, F1 teams, WSB teams, their telemetry, and their riders have all shown that the fastest way around a track is often time does not involve the same late braking techniques they use in a race (where they sometime will be asked to defend position). I have stated practices preached by professionals, backed up by telemetry data. And here you are, telling me my reasons are BS? Don't follow GP and F1 and their intricacies, do you? Thanks bro, but I've riding motos of all cc's on tracks close 10 years now. I think I know what I'm talking about a bit. I've beaten guys with superior equipment, and I've been beaten by guys with lesser equipment. Been there done that, seen all the bs excuses when guys go slow, blame everything except their skill. Next.
> 
> At this point, this thing is a dead horse. I'm done, and out, mah mang!



Mopho's experience with hydro discs is very much in line with my own--except I was the one who switched to hydro discs and gained a significant advantage on my long time training/riding partners. 

The advantage of road hydro discs was unmistakable on descents during last years trip to the Dolomites. In fact, my training partners were inspired enough that they bought new bikes with hydro discs for this years training/trip and my advantage was gone. To be clear, we nearly always ride/train on twisting mountain roads. We go back to northern italy each year because climbing and descending is our passion and few places can match the twisting, adrenaline pumping descents of northern italy. 

There may be some folks who actually want to know why discs are faster in hairpins. I’ll start by stating the obvious: predictable and precision braking makes everybody faster through hairpins from beginners to top tier competitors. 

To clear a couple of things up:
Application of motorsports principles to bike racing on mountain descents has serious limitations. First, they have the ability to begin smoothly applying power at the apex--we don't. 

Second, artificial hairpins used in both Formula 1 and grand prix mostly use a constant gradient on the center line while real world mountain descents mostly use a constant gradient on the outside radius because a road builder’s objective there is about gaining and losing altitude. This matters a lot because we lose a significant amount of downforce when we leave the outside radius to cut through the apex on such turns. (If you do an elevation profile of the traditional path on such a hairpin you'll see that we are riding off of a significant drop-off almost immediately after we begin our “smooth” radius toward the apex--thus we have the lowest downforce and smallest contact patch that we will experience anywhere in the turn. In spite of what we think, fast cyclists take hairpins using an elliptical curve that intersects the apex to reduce the drop-off effect. The early part of the turn (when the downforce is least) is the broad radius portion of the ellipse and when we get to the apex and the downforce increases dramatically, the radius can shorten because the downforce increases as we ride back up to the outside near the exit. Again, we do not have the ability to begin pedaling to make up the lost speed that a smooth radius turn would require until we begin to straighten out.

The precision and consistency of discs allows us to take a broader (straighter) ellipse early and to brake later and nearly to the apex where our radius will shorten. Because the downforce becomes the greatest at that point we can carry more speed thru the balance of the turn—speed that we have because we didn’t have to wipe it off to deal with the reduced down force earlier.

In summary: precision braking opens up opportunities that the random and variable braking of rim brakes simply make too dangerous.

In the long run, nothing that anybody says is likely to change the religious views of Luddites. The Giro will, however, supply evidence that will make it clear to rational observers which braking system allows riders to navigate hairpins more quickly. It should be fun.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

It's clear that many of the pros are not on board with the change, from their own comments. That says more about the situation than any amount of yammering on a bbs.

The idea that pro cycling would never adopt equipment or procedures that endanger the racers is beyond ludicrous, and makes me wonder if some of you have watched any pro racing. Setting aside all the huge issues related to doping, they have these guys racing in 110 degree heat, getting hit by poorly regulated support and tv vehicles, having unmarked bollards on the course, the list goes on and on. Paris-Roubaix? Hello? You've got to be kidding me.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The is pretty humorous! Racing does have an inherent risk or two but we were talking about knowingly racing on components that were thought to be inferior by racers and teams 

To my knowledge if a support vehicle driver notifies "pro racing" that he is going lose his brakes and hit a rider today at mile 27 and they say oh...Ok then they knowingly adopted a procedure or equipment that was dangerous or inferior . Please do share with us when that has happened. And do tell us when that is going to happen in upcoming events. 

Regarding unmarked bollards, sh!t happens and sometimes someone misses something over a 130 mile course. I rather doubt that they look at a bollard and decide "that is dangerous so lets not mark it!" 

Edit: I almost forgot--how many is "many pros" and does that number represent a majority?


Fireform said:


> It's clear that many of the pros are not on board with the change, from their own comments. That says more about the situation than any amount of yammering on a bbs.
> 
> The idea that pro cycling would never adopt equipment or procedures that endanger the racers is beyond ludicrous, and makes me wonder if some of you have watched any pro racing. Setting aside all the huge issues related to doping, they have these guys racing in 110 degree heat, getting hit by poorly regulated support and tv vehicles, having unmarked bollards on the course, the list goes on and on. Paris-Roubaix? Hello? You've got to be kidding me.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

i wonder if the non-disc group of riders will not work with the disced riders?

in the big races.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

When the pro peloton stages a protest like it did at the Tour of the Basque Country, or simply refuses to race a stage as happened at the Tour of Oman, do you think they feel "pro cycling" has their best interests at heart? You've got to be joking. Those are just the first examples to come to mind from last season. Rider welfare is way down the list of priorities for "pro cycling".


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You make my case precisely. Riders are not going to knowingly ride inferior equipment and apparently will not engage in other activities that they think are not in their interests.


Fireform said:


> When the pro peloton stages a protest like it did at the Tour of the Basque Country, or simply refuses to race a stage as happened at the Tour of Oman, do you think they feel "pro cycling" has their best interests at heart? You've got to be joking. Those are just the first examples to come to mind from last season. Rider welfare is way down the list of priorities for "pro cycling".


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I think the pros may feel like they are guinea pigs on this one...it's way different than electric shifting or adding a cog to the cassette.

This could be a massive cluster fu...


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

SwiftSolo said:


> You make my case precisely. Riders are not going to knowingly ride inferior equipment and apparently will not engage in other activities that they think are not in their interests.


Ok, clearly you have it all figured out. That's why this happened: http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...ci-meetings-union-leery-of-disc-brakes_390178


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Ok, clearly you have it all figured out. That's why this happened: Shut out of UCI meetings, union leery of disc brakes - VeloNews.com


from the article...



> “*It is well-known that the cycle industries are major financial partners of our sport and that sometimes it is very difficult to oppose.*”


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> from the article...




Yawn. Racers need to adapt to what the manufacturers build for consumers, not the other way around.


And that article doesn't say much of anything


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

MoPho said:


> Yawn. Racers need to adapt to what the manufacturers build for consumers, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> And that article doesn't say much of anything


read between the lines


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> read between the lines



Uh, no. 

You are just jumping to the conclusions that you want to believe because you are absurdly anti-disc brake, which is hilarious since in another thread you're touting how great Di2 is, now there is a unnecessary technology to spend money on


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I read that and immediately concluded that it was either pathetic journalism or a pathetic organization--I can't tell which.


MoPho said:


> Yawn. Racers need to adapt to what the manufacturers build for consumers, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> And that article doesn't say much of anything


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

factory feel said:


> from the article...


*“It is well-known that the cycle industries are major financial partners of our sport and that sometimes it is very difficult to oppose.” *

Actually it is very easy to oppose cycle industry financial partners. You just tell them that you don't need their money or their products. If they are making dangerous or inferior products, that is what any organization with integrity would do.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

MoPho said:


> Uh, no.
> 
> You are just jumping to the conclusions that you want to believe because you are absurdly anti-disc brake, which is hilarious since in another thread you're touting how great Di2 is, now there is a unnecessary technology to spend money on


sounds like it's out of you're reach.

and, i am not against disc brakes, 4 of my bicycles have them.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> sounds like it's out of you're reach.
> 
> and, i am not against disc brakes, 4 of my bicycles have them.


More jumping to conclusions  

And you are anti-road bike disc brake, is that better? How about you stop whining about it? if you don't want them, don't buy them


.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Yep, expect a lot of dead riders--you know from rotor burns and cuts.


factory feel said:


> I think the pros may feel like they are guinea pigs on this one...it's way different than electric shifting or adding a cog to the cassette.
> 
> This could be a massive cluster fu...


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> *“It is well-known that the cycle industries are major financial partners of our sport and that sometimes it is very difficult to oppose.” *
> 
> Actually it is very easy to oppose cycle industry financial partners. You just tell them that you don't need their money or their products. If they are making dangerous or inferior products, that is what any organization with integrity would do.


Heck yeah. There are way more bike industry sponsors than teams. Are they going to win races on inferior equipment?

I'd love to know exactly for what reasons the union is against disc brakes? They need to elaborate.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> Heck yeah. There are way more bike industry sponsors than teams. Are they going to win races on inferior equipment?
> 
> I'd love to know exactly for what reasons the union is against disc brakes? They need to elaborate.


They're holding out for drum brakes.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

SwiftSolo said:


> Actually it is very easy to oppose cycle industry financial partners. You just tell them that you don't need their money or their products. If they are making dangerous or inferior products, that is what any organization with integrity would do.


Boy I really wish this was in some way feasible in modern professional cycling. Clearly it's impossible to run a pro team without tens of millions of dollars, and those sponsors don't seem so easy to come by. Grass roots cycling can't really compete for riders in a world of $2 million (or euro) salaries, never mind the cost of operations for mandated tours on almost every continent.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

And as expensive as this sport is already in the pro ranks, it's about to get crazy expensive. Especially if, as has been suggested, each rider has disc and non-disked race bikes and backup bikes and wheels and parts.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Generally, about every two years a group of sailors race the Americas Cup. A bit over a billion dollars is now spent between the 10 or 11 teams that compete. Bicycle racing has far a far bigger audience and substantially better return for it's sponsors. Comparatively, the cost is peanuts.

I'd be very surprised if Shimano would hesitate if they had an opportunity to claim that the Sram and Campy teams have decided to abandon those products in favor of Shimano

This is worth watching to hear about costs associated with operating a world class pro team. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xis1_1_Bfgg


DrSmile said:


> Boy I really wish this was in some way feasible in modern professional cycling. Clearly it's impossible to run a pro team without tens of millions of dollars, and those sponsors don't seem so easy to come by. Grass roots cycling can't really compete for riders in a world of $2 million (or euro) salaries, never mind the cost of operations for mandated tours on almost every continent.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> Generally, about every two years a group of sailors race the Americas Cup. A bit over a billion dollars is now spent between the 10 or 11 teams that compete. Bicycle racing has far a far bigger audience and substantially better return for it's sponsors. Comparatively, the cost is peanuts.
> 
> I'd be very surprised if Shimano would hesitate if they had an opportunity to claim that the Sram and Campy teams have decided to abandon those products in favor of Shimano
> 
> This is worth watching to hear about costs associated with operating a world class pro team. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xis1_1_Bfgg


but you agree the pros don't want them, right?


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Yes, I agree that one out of eight pros aren't sure they want them. 
If you bothered to follow the links in that piece of journalist nonsense, you'll come to interviews with actual pros, starting with Bonnen.

Stopping progress? Pro cyclists weigh in on the disc-brake debate - VeloNews.com


factory feel said:


> but you agree the pros don't want them, right?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> Yes, I agree that one out of eight pros aren't sure they want them.
> If you bothered to follow the links in that piece of journalist nonsense, you'll come to interviews with actual pros, starting with Bonnen.
> 
> Stopping progress? Pro cyclists weigh in on the disc-brake debate - VeloNews.com


perhaps you didn't read all the answers...?
this guy nailed it...keep them on the gravel bikes



> Michael Meyer (Trek Bicycles, road brand manager): There’s a big push from the industry. From the media side, it’s a big buzz, especially early on. There’s a big surge from that group. From the riders’ standpoint, we’ve discussed it with them and there’s not too much interest. I was out with some riders, and they didn’t have much interest in it at all. Fabian [Cancellara] rode on the Boone disc [cyclocross] bike, he was interested in it, but not in the racing aspect. The retail shop people, there’s a big push from them, and the media, and the gravel adventure-seeking rider. There’s a big push there as well.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


> perhaps you didn't read all the answers...?
> this guy nailed it...keep them on the gravel bikes


I'll keep you in mind when cherry season comes.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

den bakker said:


> I'll keep you in mind when cherry season comes.


there's more of the same, if you look.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


> there's more of the same, if you look.


It sure gives a more nuanced picture than just picking one.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

den bakker said:


> It sure gives a more nuanced picture than just picking one.


right, one sided, which is what _swift_ was trying to project.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


> right, one sided, which is what _swift_ was trying to project.


if that's your standard to live by. go for it.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Let me make sure I understand.

You'll take the trek brand managers view before the actual riders--those lying corporate bass turds that force riders to ride inferior products?

How much those sunz-a-bit chas paying you to join in on this conspiracy? 

Do provide current testimony of all the riders who are against using them.


factory feel said:


> perhaps you didn't read all the answers...?
> this guy nailed it...keep them on the gravel bikes


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> Let me make sure I understand.
> 
> You'll take the trek brand managers view before the actual riders--those lying corporate bass turds that force riders to ride inferior products?
> 
> ...


you know as well as i do the riders can't speak out against it, they're paid by the companies that have an intere$t in selling them..

here's one brave soul though..



> Nathan Haas (Garmin-Sharp): Do you know how hot a disc brake gets under braking? If you crashed on one with your face, your face is going to melt. Keep it out of the sport. It doesn’t belong. Just don’t do it. It’s the dumbest thing ever. The sport’s already trying to go places it shouldn’t. It’s like Formula One. *Keep it simple, keep disc brakes out.*


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> you know as well as i do the riders can't speak out against it, they're paid by the companies that have an intere$t in selling them..
> 
> here's one brave soul though..




Good they have you to speak on their behalf. :thumbsup:


.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

MoPho said:


> Good they have you to speak on their behalf. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> .


thx broseph


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

It goes without saying that he was fired immediately after saying this?

How about the Brand Manager for Trek?

Maybe give talking out of another orifice a shot. Until then!


factory feel said:


> you know as well as i do the riders can't speak out against it, they're paid by the companies that have an intere$t in selling them..
> 
> here's one brave soul though..


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> It goes without saying that he was fired immediately after saying this?


if he was already on the chopping block, that could have sent him packing.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> It goes without saying that he was fired immediately after saying this?
> 
> How about the Brand Manager for Trek?
> 
> Maybe give talking out of another orifice a shot. Until then!





factory feel said:


> if he was already on the chopping block, that could have sent him packing.



Humm
Heres' the team roster pic. That's odd.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

That'll teach him and his four friends


ziscwg said:


> Humm
> Heres' the team roster pic. That's odd.
> View attachment 311001


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

good teamwork, you two.

if you two don't think this is a huuuuge money grab then i've got a bridge to sell you!


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


> good teamwork, you two.
> 
> if you two don't think this is a huuuuge money grab then i've got a bridge to sell you!


Not just huuuge
It's huuuuge


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

it's actually brilliant.

new frame: check
new fork: check
new wheels: check
new drivetrain: check
unnecessary: check


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


> it's actually brilliant.
> 
> new frame: check
> new fork: check
> ...


so. you don't approve of disks on road bikes?


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

den bakker said:


> so. you don't approve of disks on road bikes?


check


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)




----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

factory feel said:


>


Don't approve of pedals either. Well it's safer that way.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> it's actually brilliant.
> 
> new frame: check
> new fork: check
> ...



No one forcing you to buy one: Check


The funny thing about most companies, they are in it to make money. And with exception to a few niche makers it's innovate or die. Period. 


Your whining is stupid



.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> good teamwork, you two.
> 
> if you two don't think this is a huuuuge money grab then i've got a bridge to sell you!


Huge???? Not really.

Disk brakes are an upgrade to many who ride outside with mountains and love deep carbon hoopies.

While I agree they are unnecessary, I also think they are an improvement over rim brakes in modulation and actuation force. The days can soon be here when I can go all they way down Soda Springs road with one finger braking and having my hands on the hoods.


----------



## K Dub Cycle (Oct 22, 2013)

So the F8w frame is compatible with mechanical, electronic, or wireless group sets. Next, Pinarello needs to come up with a frame compatible with disc or rim brakes.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


>


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

K Dub Cycle said:


> So the F8w frame is compatible with mechanical, electronic, or wireless group sets. Next, Pinarello needs to come up with a frame compatible with disc or rim brakes.


good idea actually.

when someone realizes disc brakes aren't for them, there's a way out.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


>


Where's the Beef?? Uhhh I mean, Where's the DISKS???


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MoPho said:


> No one forcing you to buy one: Check
> 
> 
> The funny thing about most companies, they are in it to make money. And with exception to a few niche makers it's innovate or die. Period.
> ...


The funny thing about consumers is we get to choose. 

I choose disks with 48 mm carbon hoopies and a mouth guard on my stem.

He chooses rim brakes and does not have to worry if he mounted the rotor backwards.....ever.

So, each company can figure which one will make the most money. The disk wielding knuckle dragger or the pompous coffee shop guru.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Those money grubbing sunz-a-bit-chas. 

It's great that riders will be racing on both types of brakes in the big two tours this year. They'll have to pay the rim brake riders to pretend they're slower through the hairpins and that'll teach those corporate bass turds. 

We're lucky to have you and your fellow enlighteners so we'll know what's *really* going on!

On behalf of all of us who've been sucked into this giant corporate conspiracy, let me thank you in advance.


factory feel said:


> good teamwork, you two.
> 
> if you two don't think this is a huuuuge money grab then i've got a bridge to sell you!


----------



## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> Those money grubbing sunz-a-bit-chas.
> 
> It's great that riders will be racing on both types of brakes in the big two tours this year. They'll have to pay the rim brake riders to pretend they're slower through the hairpins and that'll teach those corporate bass turds.
> 
> ...


 
_You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SwiftSolo again.

_We should all stop feeding this factory fail troll, but it can really get humorous at times.


----------



## K Dub Cycle (Oct 22, 2013)

Is the better braking of the disc brakes enough to offset the aero and weight benefits of rim brakes in the pro peleton? It seems the last few years of R&D in the bicycle industry has been all about shaving weight and improving aerodynamics.


----------



## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think the majority of mountain bikes sold now are still rim brakes. I think you're correct in saying that nearly all mid and upper range mountain bikes are disc.
> 
> Chances are that a large percentage of mid and upper range mountain bikers actually use them for mountain biking but they are a small minority. I'm guessing that most are sold to people for riding MUTs and around campus.
> 
> All of the above is anecdotal and from observation in my part of the country. I've not asked the local shop owners that I use.


Are you out of your mind? I challenge you to find more than one current model mountain bike over $1k that has rim brakes.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I think you are technically right. But I'd guess that the majority of mountain bikes sold are in the $400 to $700 range


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think you are technically right. But I'd guess that the majority of mountain bikes sold are in the $400 to $700 range


technically, you make up stories.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think you are technically right. But I'd guess that the majority of mountain bikes sold are in the $400 to $700 range


Huh? I thought we put this to rest a week ago. 



tlg said:


> Gosh no. You can't find a new bike with rim brakes.
> Trek Mountain | Bikes |
> Disc are the only options.
> 
> ...





SwiftSolo said:


> I stand corrected. That's pretty overwhelming evidence.


Hardly anyone is even making sub $500 MTB's that you'd actually MTB with. I've only found one MTB over $400 with rim brakes. Everything else is disc.
We aren't including Walmart bikes right? Just real MTB's that you'd safely ride on trails.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

We did put it to bed. I was thinking about the "mountain bikes" I see on the MUT. I agree that it is a stretch to call them mountain bikes on a cycling forum. They are mostly sold at Wal Mart or costco.

For the purposes of this forum, you were correct and I was mistaken.


tlg said:


> Huh? I thought we put this to rest a week ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

tlg said:


> Hardly anyone is even making sub $500 MTB's that you'd actually MTB with. I've only found one MTB over $400 with rim brakes. Everything else is disc.
> We aren't including Walmart bikes right? Just real MTB's that you'd safely ride on trails.


BikesDirect has mountain bikes that you can do some cross country on, for less than $500. Naturally, not the highest quality components.

in my neck of the woods, for the annual singlespeed MTB race, they have some options, less than $500.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

notice how the non-disc bike looks like it's floating and the disc bike is heavy to the ground....


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

uh oh....51% off, ooops, nobody wants it I guess.

https://www.merlincycles.com/colnago-c-59-campagnolo-super-record-esp-disc-bike-2013-68576.html


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> notice how the non-disc bike looks like it's floating and the disc bike is heavy to the ground....


Duhhhhhhhhhh
The disk one is stopped on the ground. The non disk one just went off the cliff because it could not slow down in the wet with those carbon hoopies.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> uh oh....51% off, ooops, nobody wants it I guess.
> 
> https://www.merlincycles.com/colnago-c-59-campagnolo-super-record-esp-disc-bike-2013-68576.html


Of course they can't sell it. It's got Campy on it. No one wants to have to use one trigger to shift up and then another to shift down. That is just too much work


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> technically, you make up stories.


Next time you go to the LBS, check out their MTBs. All priced above 400. have disc brakes. :yesnod: No self respecting MTB owner will knowingly ride rim brakes, only the teenagers who don't have a choice because their parents won't spring for a $400+ MTB for Johnny. His parents will buy him entry level. He'll be stuck with rim brakes.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Next time you go to the LBS, check out their MTBs. All priced above 400. have disc brakes. :yesnod: No self respecting MTB owner will knowingly ride rim brakes, only the teenagers who don't have a choice because their parents won't spring for a $400+ MTB


My older MTB still has XTR rim brakes. No question, they are every bit as good as mechanical discs... in dry conditions. 
But yea... no way would a self respecting MTB'er ride rim brakes on a $400 bike. Not to mention the fork on a $400 bike it totally worthless.


----------



## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

There is zero downside to discs, upside- you stop quicker in all conditions. Disc brakes are here, embrace it. LOL!


----------



## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Aadub said:


> There is zero downside to discs, upside- you stop quicker in all conditions. Disc brakes are here, embrace it. LOL!


As far as no down side... You are fanboying saying that from my seat.

They squeeeeel and scream in rain, they pick up oils and need cleaning frequently, wheel swaps and rotor/disc alignment is certainly an issue. [Although I went full CenterLocks on all my wheels]. 

Issue or downsides? To each their own will that be decided...

They are what they are, but one thing they are is 'here to stay' to be sure...

'Here to stay', been saying this for a long while in the road disc dialog threads. And saying dialog/thread is soft pedaling on how the sentiment comes across is said threads.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

well, they tried it before and it failed....


----------



## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

factory feel said:


> well, they tried it before and it failed....


If that is a Tandem drag disc, which I think it may be, misplaced in a road bike thread I'd say...


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it”


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

not sure if this was mentioned, but the union that represents cyclists has expressed concerns about allowing disc brakes in. They believe it could make the sport more dangerous, not safer. Of course that is not a story the sponsors or organizers want told.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> This entire view of market forces is fantasy. Nobody is going to require anybody to ride *inferior technology* nor is any pro rider going to knowingly ride *inferior technology*.


at least we agree on this.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Trek_5200 said:


> not sure if this was mentioned, but the union that represents cyclists has expressed concerns about allowing disc brakes in. They believe it could make the sport more dangerous, not safer. Of course that is not a story the sponsors or organizers want told.


I believe we were linked to an article of _them_ being left out in the cold on the decision.

Shut out of UCI meetings, union leery of disc brakes - VeloNews.com


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ozzybmx said:


> 3 years ago, many said that discs on CX bikes were stupid and they would never go discs... all those people are now on flash disc CX bikes.
> 
> Never say never.


bandwagon effect.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Man, you nailed it again. Think of those stupid sunz-a-bit-chas who thought we could fly. Not only did they not learn, but they failed over and over again. 

It is the mark of genius to give up when someone tries something and it fails. If only you'd been around to spread your insight prior to the industrial revolution.


factory feel said:


> well, they tried it before and it failed....


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> well, they tried it before and it failed....


Well, I'm sure you have heard of older "muscle cars" You know,big engines, lots of power, etc. This disk of old is the muscle car of disk brakes. Lots of weight and power, but unrefined from a modern standpoint.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Aadub said:


> There is zero downside to discs, upside- you stop quicker in all conditions. Disc brakes are here, embrace it. LOL!


Of course there are downsides to disks..............

You just have to weigh the downside to the upside. The upsides of disk on road bikes outweigh the downsides. Even in flat states, the benefits are there. Any races go rain or shine???????? Yeah, most of them.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

_







Originally Posted by *ozzybmx* 
3 years ago, many said that discs on CX bikes were stupid and they would never go discs... all those people are now on flash disc CX bikes.

Never say never.

_







factory feel said:


> bandwagon effect.


Or they discovered it's freakin awsummmmm to be able to slow down without having to clear the crud off the rims before braking starts.


----------



## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> Of course there are downsides to disks..............
> 
> You just have to weigh the downside to the upside.


Funny you should say 'weigh' 



> Any races go rain or shine???????? Yeah, most of them.


Imagine holding you ears as in a circuit race 100+ guys go by into a sharp bend in the wet? The screeching symphony that shall ensue... 

They are what they are... But once the Pros start using them the tech will really get going, and the coin that will follow us pouring out of our wallets.


----------



## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> discovered it's freakin awsummmmm to be able to slow down without having to clear the crud off the rims before braking starts.


Or have to go home and clean off the muck before bringing them to the LBS, or talking them down for 'another' set of rims...

I have thought that getting 12 rims at a shot and just replacing/lacing often with new rims may possibly be cheaper then doing the disk plunge for the wet cause. cause I d my own wheels for a few decades it could make even more sense...

The real issue for me is changing out a flat out in the rain and the grey muck getting absolutely everywhere fixing the flat! Not talking racing, but road riding...

I have eaten a rear MTN rim in a 2 hour wet woods ride. The ceramic rim I put to on remedy that is still on therev10 years later, and 10 sets of shoes later too!


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

robt57 said:


> Funny you should say 'weigh'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Someone is paying attention to my dumb play on words................. I did it with awesome too when I was playing on the bandwagon.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

robt57 said:


> The ceramic rim I put to on remedy that is still on therev10 years later,_* and 10 sets of shoes*_ later too!


Stop stopping with your shoes like those kiddos on the BMX bikes around town. What are you 12?


----------



## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> What are you 12?


If only...


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

OK, So the discussion is done and the expert consensus is..............

Disk breaks will not brake the peloton!!!!


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

anyone here getting paid to voice support of road discs on the interwebs?


----------



## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

factory feel said:


> anyone here getting paid to voice support of road discs on the interwebs?



How would I go about this?


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> anyone here getting paid to voice support of road discs on the interwebs?





Aadub said:


> How would I go about this?


Sign me up too. I don't need money, just lots of disk brake bikes. Top end CX, Road race, Road endurance would be sufficient.


----------



## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> The upsides of disk on road bikes outweigh the downsides. Even in flat states, the benefits are there.


Look, just because you (and others) keep saying it doesn't make it true (Joseph Goebbels' assertion aside).


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

It rained hard last night and rained some today. This morning there was a break in the rain and I went for a ride. Fenders on, aluminum wheels and caliper brakes. Arms and legs on and it was fairly cold. I rode 20 miles and did not see another rider on the road. Just one guy walking his dog. I kept looking for a peloton of disc riders out modulating up a storm but there was just myself enjoying the cold, clouds, wet roads and the brown hills suddenly turned a deep green. 

Then I went to REI and bought my 3y/o Granddaughter a Diamond Back in a pretty blue with 16in wheels.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

neo-disc road riders won't ride in the rain,

might get their replica bmc kit dirty.


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I took a shot on the weather today and got caught in the rain big time. Half way out I was totally soaked to the bones. Fenders at that point are probably of little use but it at least keeps the rooster tail off. However on the last stretch there was a favorable wind and I felt pretty good so I gave it my best go and moved into tied with 2 others for a 4th overall on a popular segment. I knocked off 4 seconds from my previous time pushing a lot of water from the road. I do not usually use brakes on that section but after the segment I decided to brake hard on a moderate downhill just to see how it went and the bike stopped with good power with my well adjusted calipers. It takes one revolution to wipe the rim but the wheel is spinning pretty fast and it seemed to be less then a second. Anyway I am happy with that. I was the only duck on the road I thought but I did see a guy out on his cyclocross bike. I waved but could not tell who it was as my glasses were very wet. I need glasses for the prescription so I am no better off If I remove them.

My brand new Ultegra chain was baptized today. I just put it on this morning.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

BikeLayne said:


> I took a shot on the weather today and got caught in the rain big time. Half way out I was totally soaked to the bones. Fenders at that point are probably of little use but it at least keeps the rooster tail off. However on the last stretch there was a favorable wind and I felt pretty good so I gave it my best go and moved into tied with 2 others for a 4th overall on a popular segment. I knocked off 4 seconds from my previous time pushing a lot of water from the road. I do not usually use brakes on that section but after the segment I decided to brake hard on a moderate downhill just to see how it went and the bike stopped with good power with my well adjusted *calipers*. It takes one revolution to wipe the rim but the wheel is spinning pretty fast and it seemed to be less then a second. Anyway I am happy with that. I was the only duck on the road I thought but I did see a guy out on his cyclocross bike. I waved but could not tell who it was as my glasses were very wet. I need glasses for the prescription so I am no better off If I remove them.
> 
> My brand new Ultegra chain was baptized today. I just put it on this morning.


you're lucky to be alive.


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

factory feel said:


> you're lucky to be alive.


That is what my wife said but I was not at risk actually. Low traffic, and I had front and rear blinky lights. I just got wet is all and bested my PR in the rain. My last PR for that segment was 9 months ago.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> My older MTB still has XTR rim brakes. No question, they are every bit as good as mechanical discs... in dry conditions.
> But yea... no way would a self respecting MTB'er ride rim brakes on a $400 bike. Not to mention the fork on a $400 bike it totally worthless.


Don't tell anybody about those cheap forks. :frown2: They may look good, but buyer pays for what he gets.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> neo-disc road riders won't ride in the rain,
> 
> might get their replica bmc kit dirty.


dirty???? I just never wash my unmatched BMC kit. So, it works out riding in the rain.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

anybody know what the plastic clip wrapped around the caliper mounting bolts purpose is??

safety clip to keep the bolt from backing all the way off?


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

yep

Shimano Brake Caliper Adapter Installation- Mtbr.com


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

ziscwg said:


> dirty???? I just never was my unmatched BMC kit. So, it works out riding in the rain.


Riding in the rain is not that great. My handlebar tape is saturated and so are my shoes. The bike wheels were a mess but fully clean now. I do not have a fancy kit jersey but the one I was wearing just got wet and not dirty at all. However fenders make a huge difference and the bike for the most part is clean. I dried it off the best I was able last night. 

I just took a shot and got caught in the rain. You just have to go for it if you want to get some miles during the winter. I will ride tomorrow and the forecast is blue sky.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> anybody know what the plastic clip wrapped around the caliper mounting bolts purpose is??
> 
> safety clip to keep the bolt from backing all the way off?


Yeah, typical Shimano over engineering it. While they are easy to install, I just left them off. Loctite and proper torque have never failed me


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

As I predicted.

Cancellara chooses not to use disc brakes in 2016 | Cyclingnews.com

Expect more to follow suit.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

32and3cross said:


> As I predicted.
> 
> Cancellara chooses not to use disc brakes in 2016 | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Expect more to follow suit.


Wow,
If he's not using disk, then even I could beat him in a few spring classics


----------



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Shocking that Cancellara would intentionally place himself at such a massive technical disadvantage in his last season as a pro.


----------



## K Dub Cycle (Oct 22, 2013)

Orica-GreenEdge will NOT use disc brakes in 2016.

https://www.twitter.com/ridemediaHQ/status/687892833953431552


----------



## serious (May 2, 2006)

Like with everything, adoption will be gradual, but disk brakes are here to stay. For us mountain bikers, it is no big deal. 

Here is my CX bike with disks. It weighs 17 lbs without pedals and cages (17.7 lbs as shown), so a dedicated road bike can easily come under 16 lbs.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm just not sure they're here to stay on all pure road bikes.

Some yes, all maybe not.

There is just something about a road bike that says no to discs.


commuters, mtb bikes, cx bikes etc. Yes I can see it.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Sram's electronic drivetrain and discs are already being adopted:

Katusha, AG2R La Mondiale to use SRAM eTap groups in 2016 | Cyclingnews.com


----------



## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> Sram's electronic drivetrain and discs are already being adopted:
> 
> Katusha, AG2R La Mondiale to use SRAM eTap groups in 2016 | Cyclingnews.com


One pro conti team said they'll use disc brakes throughout the season. None of the teams in the headlines of that link said that.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> One pro conti team said they'll use disc brakes throughout the season. None of the teams in the headlines of that link said that.


Who said otherwise?


----------



## K Dub Cycle (Oct 22, 2013)

Only one pro team has used disc brakes so far in 2016. 

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/02/news/disc-brakes-make-2016-racing-debut-in-qatar_394934

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...using-disc-brakes-at-the-tour-of-qatar-211236


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

K Dub Cycle said:


> Only one pro team has used disc brakes so far in 2016.


Must just be early in the season. I'm sure everyone will be using them by July.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

"we are basically adding spinning knife blades to our bikes."


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

factory feel said:


> "we are basically adding spinning knife blades to our bikes."


Didn't you see the GCN show? Won't be an issue they said. Less dangerous than spokes they said. No worries mate.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> "we are basically adding spinning knife blades to our bikes."


I don't get why the team mech does not break the sharp outer edge with a convex dremel grinding wheel?

It's left sharp because of cost. 

It took me all of 3 min to do both my rotors on my mtb. I can't believe I'm the only one thought that would be a good idea if I crash. We all know you crash a hell of a lot more on mtb


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

hate to get your finger jammed in a spinning disc cutout.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> I don't get why the team mech does not break the sharp outer edge with a convex dremel grinding wheel?
> 
> It's left sharp because of cost.
> 
> It took me all of 3 min to do both my rotors on my mtb. I can't believe I'm the only one thought that would be a good idea if I crash. We all know you crash a hell of a lot more on mtb


Discs have been on MTB's for quite a long time. People crash on MTB's a lot more. Where's the plethora of disc injuries? Not something I ever hear of.
Chainrings on the other hand.... have left quite a few nasty injuries. But no one is dremeling the points off their chainrings.


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

tlg said:


> Discs have been on MTB's for quite a long time. People crash on MTB's a lot more. Where's the plethora of disc injuries? Not something I ever hear of.
> Chainrings on the other hand.... have left quite a few nasty injuries. But no one is dremeling the points off their chainrings.


All those huge pile-ups of bikes and bodies scraping and grinding to a stop on the pavement from 50 mph in MTB...

Yup. 

Totally the same thing.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> All those huge pile-ups of bikes and bodies scraping and grinding to a stop on the pavement from 50 mph in MTB...
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Totally the same thing.


He was talking about MTB's.

Yup. 

Totally the same thing.


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

tlg said:


> He was talking about MTB's.
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Totally the same thing.


Exactly. I guess you missed it. I'll be more clear for you.

There are no pile-ups in MTB.

There, you should understand now.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Exactly. I guess you missed it. I'll be more clear for you.
> 
> There are no pile-ups in MTB.
> 
> There, you should understand now.


I guess you missed it. I'll be more clear for you.

*No need to dremmel your rotors*.

There, you should understand now.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

MMsRepBike said:


> Exactly. I guess you missed it. I'll be more clear for you.
> 
> There are no pile-ups in MTB.
> 
> There, you should understand now.


statement: "It took me all of 3 min to do both my rotors *on my mtb*."

response: "Discs have been on MTB's for quite a long time. People crash on MTB's a lot more."

I don't see any lack of understanding anything myself. Pretty straight forward on point response.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I thought this horse was already buried? Hit shredded and killed by a biker with failed disc brakes sometime last year?

It's time to move on to some other technology where clueless Luddites can voice definitive insight as to why it'll never work. The internal combustion engine comes to mind?


factory feel said:


> "we are basically adding spinning knife blades to our bikes."


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

K Dub Cycle said:


> Only one pro team has used disc brakes so far in 2016.
> 
> Disc brakes make 2016 racing debut in Qatar - VeloNews.com
> 
> Only one team using disc brakes at the Tour of Qatar - Cycling Weekly


It actually depends on how you define the word "pro." The guys on Cylance-Incycle are racing full-time on Cannondale Caad12 Disc bikes this year. They mostly race the NCR calendar. My understanding is that they haven't lost on those aluminum disc equipped bikes yet this season. There are no deaths to report yet either.....

https://www.facebook.com/CylanceIncycle/

https://www.instagram.com/nationsnumber1beast/?hl=en


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Please stop bringing up the lame MTB example in this. There is no bunch sprint in mtb. I don't see the bro's and bra's in mtb with their leadout trains going at 40 mph all gunning for the dirt finishline, do you?? There is no 150 riders in MTB trying to squeeze through one spot on the road. Because of this, there is NO pile-up in MTB.

yes, mtb guys crash more, but they all crash by themselves doing things above their skillset would allow them. They don't crash into a pile-up. 

Does this make sense? I'm not here now to debate disc brakes, but I'm here to tell all you folks, that as avid cyclists, you surely know the nuances between road vs mtb cycling right? Oh look bro, mtb guys also tend to wear camelpacks and baggies too, should roadies do it too? because you know, baggies and camelpacks protect more than spandex in a fall, you know.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

K Dub Cycle said:


> Only one pro team has used disc brakes so far in 2016.
> 
> Disc brakes make 2016 racing debut in Qatar - VeloNews.com
> 
> Only one team using disc brakes at the Tour of Qatar - Cycling Weekly


Riders saying to UCI and manufacturers: "up yours"

I wonder if it'll be a matter of time before the manufacturers and UCI will make disc mandatory if the riders refuse to use them. Using disc is an all-or-nothing event. Can't have a mix of disc and rim brakes.

The guy in front with disc suddenly slams on is brakes, only the have the guy in the back ramming into the guy in front and asking "fool why are you braking so hard"


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Riders saying to UCI and manufacturers: "up yours"
> 
> I wonder if it'll be a matter of time before the manufacturers and UCI will make disc mandatory if the riders refuse to use them. Using disc is an all-or-nothing event. Can't have a mix of disc and rim brakes.
> 
> The guy in front with disc suddenly slams on is brakes, only the have the guy in the back ramming into the guy in front and asking "fool why are you braking so hard"


Again, riders seem to be adjusting to the mix just fine in NCR races. I haven't heard of one major issue yet. Now, I concede that these races don't involve descending like World Tour races do, but there are bunch sprints, heavy cornering, quick braking, fighting for space, and crashes/pileups, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=priYuwaCQRk

And for the record, I am definitely not sayings discs are the end all be all or necessary for racing. I can actually see legitimate reasons for choosing them or not choosing them depending on your focus, course, weather, and preference, etc. All I am pointing out is that this may not be as black and white as either side wants it to be.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Please stop bringing up the lame MTB example in this. There is no bunch sprint in mtb. I don't see the bro's and bra's in mtb with their leadout trains going at 40 mph all gunning for the dirt finishline, do you?? There is no 150 riders in MTB trying to squeeze through one spot on the road. Because of this, *there is NO pile-up in MTB.*
> 
> yes, mtb guys crash more, but they all crash by themselves doing things above their skillset would allow them. *They don't crash into a pile-up. *
> 
> Does this make sense? I'm not here now to debate disc brakes, but I'm here to tell all you folks, that as avid cyclists, you surely know the nuances between road vs mtb cycling right? Oh look bro, mtb guys also tend to wear camelpacks and baggies too, should roadies do it too? because you know, baggies and camelpacks protect more than spandex in a fall, you know.



Yup, never happens…





















> There is no 150 riders in MTB trying to squeeze through one spot on the road.













.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Yup, never happens….


Wait for it....

wait for it...

"But they're not going 50mph."


If discs were "spinning knife blades ", they'd be severing limbs at 10mph just as much as 50mph.

Just an observation from the pics.... all I see is spandex. No baggies or camel backs.


----------



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

It really is mystifying that the pros aren't scrambling to adopt this technology. It represents an overwhelming advantage, after all. They must all be Luddites who've never been off the pavement.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> hate to get your finger jammed in a spinning disc cutout.


How is that worse than a bladed spoke next to a chainstay?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> How is that worse than a bladed spoke next to a chainstay?


Or between the chain and chainring. OUCH.


----------



## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

Fireform said:


> It really is mystifying that the pros aren't scrambling to adopt this technology. It represents an overwhelming advantage, after all. They must all be Luddites who've never been off the pavement.


Some pros like cutting edge technology. Some are luddites. Some will switch to new technology only after doing testing with their team to prove that it helps their performance. 

With disc brakes, there are some pro's and con's. So a cyclist has to determine if there is a weight penalty on their bike. If there is a time penalty on wheel changes. If there is an aero penalty. And if there is a penalty on either of these, is it significant enough to affect them, and does the braking, especially on descents, outweigh the penalties. 

Each team and cyclist has to determine this. Some are early adopters. Some will probably retire before they adopt. 

Same things happen with a lot of new technology. And in other sports, also. Look at Pro Football (e.g. NFL). Some of the players are still wearing helmets that have older technology, that don't protect their head as well as newer helmets. Dale Earnhardt didn't like some of the newer (at the time) safety devices on the seats of the cars that were only recommended and not required at the time. Other drivers adopted the technology as soon as it came out. Dale's reluctance to use the newer safety technology may have contributed to the injuries that caused his death. 

GH


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Ya but, did any of these guys survive? I'll bet this is the last race co-sponsored by ISIS and the disc manufacturers that these guy do (you know, if any survived the hot, whirling discs).


MoPho said:


> Yup, never happens…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Brake bleeding is going to aquire a whole new meaning on road bikes.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MoPho said:


> Yup, never happens…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, that look like the lamo Sea Otter course from last yr, the yr before, the yr before that...........you get the idea


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Yup, never happens…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well yeah if you google anything these days, you're bound to find them. Still it's silly dumb to even assume that mtb pileups is as frequent as road. I counted 7 guys on the ground, while the other 7 stand around and pick their nose. Ooohhh such a huge pile-up there! Probabaly due to some idiot cooking a corner at 15 mph thinking his disc brakes gonna save his ass huh. The pile up looked pathetic, at least post a proper one eh


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

this is a bunch of mountain bikers after a ganja session..not a pile up!


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

factory feel said:


> Brake bleeding is going to aquire a whole new meaning on road bikes.


The phrase "heads will roll" may take on a more literal meaning during road bike races.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ziscwg said:


> How is that worse than a bladed spoke next to a chainstay?


one is a butter knife, the other a scalpel.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Well yeah if you google anything these days, you're bound to find them. Still it's silly dumb to even assume that mtb pileups is as frequent as road. I counted 7 guys on the ground, while the other 7 stand around and pick their nose. Ooohhh such a huge pile-up there! Probabaly due to some idiot cooking a corner at 15 mph thinking his disc brakes gonna save his ass huh. The pile up looked pathetic, at least post a proper one eh



But you said it NEVER happens, or is that one of those nuances you were talking about? 


Just like getting punctured by a chainring, or a brake lever in the eye, I am sure there is a chance one could be cut by a rotor in a pile up, but the whole high speed spinning knife blade is really just a bit overblown. Chances are much greater that the wheel will make contact with something and stop spinning before a rotor can cut someone into little pieces. Not to say it can't happen, but it would be a freak accident, like getting your nut sack stuck in a derailleur 

Also, pile ups happen because people don't have time to hit the brakes, so unless such a crash came at the bottom of a big descent (where riders are often more spread out), it seems to me the likelihood of getting burned by a hot rotor is pretty slim too. 


.


----------



## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Having been on mountain bikes with disks for quite a few years now. I really can't imagine a disk actually cutting someone. They simply aren't sharp enough to cut into anything. In fact even calling them "sharp" in any way is ridiculous. Getting a small burn is a real issue but in the event of a high speed pile up it would be the least of your worries.

For the record, I like the rim brakes on my road bike. I just don't see why people are freaking out about this.


----------



## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> The guy in front with disc suddenly slams on is brakes, only the have the guy in the back ramming into the guy in front and asking "fool why are you braking so hard"


This is such a non-issue. Any one slamming on their brakes at the front of a group, rim or not, is going to get an earful. 

Which is why good riders rarely do that in the first place.


----------



## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> Again, riders seem to be adjusting to the mix just fine in NCR races. I haven't heard of one major issue yet.


Probably because there haven't been any NRC races yet. They don't start until April. A "pro" rider doing a local race does not make that race an NRC.

I very HIGHLY doubt there will be many disc brakes at Sunny King in April.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

To be fair, some of them are sharp, but it takes about a minute to put the wheel in the truing stand and spin it with a file against the sharp edge of the rotor. Clearly, the manufacturers will be forced to add that process once anyone litigates. 

This has been pointed out in about 20 threads about disc brakes and is simply a straw man. The real issue is opposition to change and having to learn something new. It's like the metric system. Clearly better, but requires thought when changing over so opposition remains vocal and afraid.


Fajita Dave said:


> Having been on mountain bikes with disks for quite a few years now. I really can't imagine a disk actually cutting someone. They simply aren't sharp enough to cut into anything. In fact even calling them "sharp" in any way is ridiculous. Getting a small burn is a real issue but in the event of a high speed pile up it would be the least of your worries.
> 
> For the record, I like the rim brakes on my road bike. I just don't see why people are freaking out about this.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Well yeah if you google anything these days, you're bound to find them. Still it's silly dumb to even assume that mtb pileups is as frequent as road.


But there's over 10yrs of racing on MTB discs. Where's all the stories of disc injuries? Surely it's had to happen quite a bit over all those years right? If there were some prevalence of disc injuries you could claim the frequency of injury on road would be higher. There's had to be a few hundred pileups over the past decade in MTB racing. That's gotta be good for at least a year of road racing.

If you can find anything with google, show us some of the disc brake injuries over the past decade. 



pedalbiker said:


> This is such a non-issue. Any one slamming on their brakes at the front of a group, rim or not, is going to get an earful.


Yea talk about making up issues. As if someone with rim brakes in a group can't suddenly slam on their brakes only to have the guy in the back ramming into the guy in the front.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

ColaJacket said:


> Some pros like cutting edge technology. Some are luddites. Some will switch to new technology only after doing testing with their team to prove that it helps their performance.
> 
> With disc brakes, there are some pro's and con's. So a cyclist has to determine if there is a weight penalty on their bike. If there is a time penalty on wheel changes. If there is an aero penalty. And if there is a penalty on either of these, is it significant enough to affect them, and does the braking, especially on descents, outweigh the penalties.
> 
> ...


One of the most rational answers we've had on this subject. ^^


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ColaJacket said:


> Some pros like cutting edge technology.


Ironic choice of words....


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

This was an interesting find given the discussion going on here:

Video: Roompot?s speedy disc brake wheel change


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Rashadabd said:


> This was an interesting find given the discussion going on here:
> 
> Video: Roompot?s speedy disc brake wheel change


don't post actual, real world situations that go against the anti disk narrative. It messes with their "Get off my lawn" attitude where real world situations are not relevant


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Rashadabd said:


> This was an interesting find given the discussion going on here:
> 
> Video: Roompot?s speedy disc brake wheel change


bet he had disc rub the rest of the day!


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> bet he had disc rub the rest of the day!


If you had a dic rub for the day would you really be telling anyone?


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

tlg said:


> Discs have been on MTB's for quite a long time. People crash on MTB's a lot more. Where's the plethora of disc injuries? Not something I ever hear of.
> Chainrings on the other hand.... have left quite a few nasty injuries. But no one is dremeling the points off their chainrings.


come to mention it .. just 4 days ago I had a big OTB crash on my MTB. I was in a heap and the bike followed down the drop right onto me. somehow some part of my body bent the rear rotor - painless, harmless and inconsequential. Rotor might have even saved me from the real danger - the spokes.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm more concerned that there may be people riding bikes that aren't bright enough to understand how to make a knife blade dull. We need to get these folks on belts drive bikes with solid disc wheels ASAP. 

This likely explains why health insurance costs are skyrocketing.


factory feel said:


> "we are basically adding spinning knife blades to our bikes."


----------



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I look forward to reading 20 years down the road about the revolutionary brake technology that combines the disc and the rim into an integrated braking system with increased braking power, better modulation, lower weight, better Aero and so on.


----------



## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Fajita Dave said:


> Having been on mountain bikes with disks for quite a few years now. I really can't imagine a disk actually cutting someone. They simply aren't sharp enough to cut into anything. In fact even calling them "sharp" in any way is ridiculous. Getting a small burn is a real issue but in the event of a high speed pile up it would be the least of your worries.
> 
> For the record, I like the rim brakes on my road bike. I just don't see why people are freaking out about this.


Why don't you try spinning your wheel and sticking a finger into the rotor.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> Why don't you try spinning your wheel and sticking a finger into the rotor.


I'll make a deal with you. You spin your wheel and stick your finger between the spoke and chain stay. Post the video on Youtube. Then I'll stick my finger into a spinning rotor. :thumbsup:


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

With a good understanding of the physics involved it becomes clear that the future will bring even smaller rotors and higher pressure hydraulics. Look for 100mm discs. They will bring even better precision, consistency, and modulation.


Fireform said:


> I look forward to reading 20 years down the road about the revolutionary brake technology that combines the disc and the rim into an integrated braking system with increased braking power, better modulation, lower weight, better Aero and so on.


----------



## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> With a good understanding of the physics involved it becomes clear that the future will bring even smaller rotors and higher pressure hydraulics. Look for 100mm discs. They will bring even better precision, consistency, and modulation.


Interesting that you mention physics. 
On another forum I visit, a guy claimed that he could go from 80 kmh (50 mph) to a complete standstill in 25 m with his discs. 
Without blocking his wheels.

So I did a few back-of-the-envelope calculations and arrived at the conclusion that with 200 mm discs (diameter, not radius), the force of the brake pads on the discs had to be several 1000 N. 
I made a few approximations: rider + bike = 100 kg, only braking on the front wheel. 
I assumed a friction coefficient = 1 of the brake pads on the metal (as far as I can see it's probably less in reality, meaning higher forces, but I'm not certain).
Temperature of the disc rising to 200 °C or more (ballpark figure, I was too lazy to look up the specific heat and the weight etc. of steel discs, I used data for aluminum and assumed a weight of 170 g or less). 

Now, this particular guy may have been embellishing the performance of his discs a bit, 80 kmh is very fast, I may have made mistakes (although others arrived at the same conclusions) and my calculation only gives an order of magnitude ... but several 1000 N seems to be a lot. 
Smaller discs would make the forces even higher.


----------



## cunn1n9 (Jul 1, 2012)

I really don't understand why people get so worked up over this issue. I personally only see an advantage when riding in rain. Since I don't deliberately go riding in the rain this is a rare occurrence for me so I doubt I will rush in for them. 

However I am perfectly happy for other riders to use them if they prefer. 

Can't we all make our choices and enjoy our riding racing without insisting everyone sees it the same way.


----------



## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

mfdemicco said:


> Why don't you try spinning your wheel and sticking a finger into the rotor.


What about between the spokes and fork / chain stay? How about getting your finger caught in the front chainwheel or a cassette cog?

I'm sure getting a finger stuck in the rotor would have better mechanical advantage for some finger shearing action. The chances of that perfect storm happening in a wreck is probably lower than you winning the lottery.


----------



## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

cunn1n9 said:


> Can't we all make our choices and enjoy our riding racing without insisting everyone sees it the same way.


Riding? On your own? Yes.

Racing? No. Not until proven otherwise. Until it is, you'll have disagreement (and after, of course, too.).


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

tlg said:


> I'll make a deal with you. You spin your wheel and stick your finger between the spoke and chain stay. Post the video on Youtube. Then I'll stick my finger into a spinning rotor. :thumbsup:


Only agree to this if he has bladed spokes.............DT Swiss AeroLite are best know for cutting fingers off


----------



## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> With a good understanding of the physics involved it becomes clear that the future will bring even smaller rotors and higher pressure hydraulics. Look for 100mm discs. They will bring even better precision, consistency, and modulation.


Yeah, and more brake fade and boiled brake fluid due to higher temperatures.


----------



## Faapaa (May 19, 2008)

Back in the days I used v-brakes on my mtb the pads last about 2 weeks, on my road bike a set of pads never wears out. The riding frequency is about the same


----------



## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Faapaa said:


> Back in the days I used v-brakes on my mtb the pads last about 2 weeks, on my road bike a set of pads never wears out. The riding frequency is about the same


That's because mud and wet grit eats up pads and rims. No problems in dry conditions.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> Why don't you try spinning your wheel and sticking a finger into the rotor.


a finger into a fixed gear drive train? how come all track riders don't look like carpenters? 
A guy lost a finger some years ago in socal when his ring got caught on a chainring in a crash and the chain did the severing. 
These are all real damages but somehow we still ride bikes without chain boxes? (dutch commuter bikes excused).


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

There is no question that application of better ways to deal with heat will need to be part of the formula. Shimano has improved both disc and pad heat transmission technology substantially, but more work will be needed to get discs down another 40mm in diameter.


mfdemicco said:


> Yeah, and more brake fade and boiled brake fluid due to higher temperatures.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You may be overthinking this by 10.

I assume you mean "from 50 mph to 0 mph without *locking* his wheels"? Road discs are currently either 140 or 160mm. The best discs now available are stainless laminated to aluminum with cooling fins. The best pads also have cooling fins. Even at that, discs will heat to well over 200f with a 220lb bike and rider coming to a quick stop from 80kph.

On the other hand, all of this is irrelevant to the point. The benefit of a small disc with high braking force over a large one with proportionately low braking force are the relevant factors. I am not talking about decreasing braking distance through increased max. cf. I am suggesting that we will see continued improvement in performance through ever better precision in controlling cf as a result of a reduction in the unintended and unpredictable variation that comes with larger discs (think rims) and lower pressure. 
Clearly it is this change that has made current bicycle disc brakes far superior to rim brakes. It’s anybody’s guess where we’ll cross over to where smaller with higher pressure is not practical. It’s a relatively new game on road bikes and road disc technology is still on the steep part of the curve. We have to deal with some issues to get to 100mm discs but I think we will get there in the next 2 years. Better, lighter, and more aero is a combination that motivates innovators. 


HFroller said:


> Interesting that you mention physics.
> On another forum I visit, a guy claimed that he could go from 80 kmh (50 mph) to a complete standstill in 25 m with his discs.
> Without blocking his wheels.
> 
> ...


----------



## bubba117 (Aug 20, 2012)

Wait, we are still *****ing about having the option to use disc brakes on road bikes? this is getting so old. No, you dont need disc brakes. You also dont need a multiple geared drivetrain, but its better. Discs have proven to be better, especially in the feel department, which is important to me. The pros have spoken and most of them still are not running discs because they dont need to and their service course is already set up with everything needed for rim brakes. And yes the top of line rim brakes have great feel and modulation, but they are expensive and you can get similar modulation and stopping power with a much lower cost disc setup, no brainer.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

bubba117 said:


> Discs have proven to be better
> *they have?*
> The pros have spoken and most of them still are not running discs because they dont need to
> *But if they're better?*
> ...


......


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

bubba117 said:


> And yes the top of line rim brakes have great feel and modulation, but they are expensive and you can get similar modulation and stopping power with a much lower cost disc setup, no brainer.


no they are cheaper esp. when to adopt them most of us would have to replace all our wheelsets. So since there is little to now performance gain and you have to buy all new stuff and tool to maintain it I will be staying withe rim brakes for now. No brainer.


----------



## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> With a good understanding of the physics involved it becomes clear that the future will bring even smaller rotors and higher pressure hydraulics.


What understanding of physics would that be which would bring you to this wonderful conclusion? Inquiring minds want to know...



HFroller said:


> Interesting that you mention physics.
> On another forum I visit, a guy claimed that he could go from 80 kmh (50 mph) to a complete standstill in 25 m with his discs.


That's not believable. He is claiming an average deceleration of almost exactly 10m/s^2, which is slightly above the typical traction limit of tires on dry asphalt. In other words, this would mean absolutely perfect braking at the traction limit, by hand. Not going to happen. I will add that there's nothing that would prevent anyone from achieving the same feat with rim brakes, of course. In either case, however, a nasty crash is the most likely outcome...


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You're going to have to be more specific. What exactly are you having trouble understanding?


Pirx said:


> What understanding of physics would that be which would bring you to this wonderful conclusion? Inquiring minds want to know...
> 
> 
> 
> That's not believable. He is claiming an average deceleration of almost exactly 10m/s^2, which is slightly above the typical traction limit of tires on dry asphalt. In other words, this would mean absolutely perfect braking at the traction limit, by hand. Not going to happen. I will add that there's nothing that would prevent anyone from achieving the same feat with rim brakes, of course. In either case, however, a nasty crash is the most likely outcome...


----------



## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> You're going to have to be more specific. What exactly are you having trouble understanding?


My question was quite clear: What "physical understanding" is it that makes you think things will go in the direction you have suggested?


----------



## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

32and3cross said:


> no they are cheaper esp. when to adopt them most of us would have to replace all our wheelsets. So since there is little to now performance gain and you have to buy all new stuff and tool to maintain it I will be staying withe rim brakes for now. No brainer.


Correct. At the Ultegra (6800) level, hydraulic discs/levers are $250 MORE expensive than their rim equivalents. Not even counting replacing wheels.


----------



## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

cunn1n9 said:


> I really don't understand why people get so worked up over this issue. I personally only see an advantage when riding in rain. Since I don't deliberately go riding in the rain this is a rare occurrence for me so I doubt I will rush in for them.
> 
> However I am perfectly happy for other riders to use them if they prefer.
> 
> Can't we all make our choices and enjoy our riding racing without insisting everyone sees it the same way.


If that were true, I would totally be on the same page with you - more choice = better. HOWEVER... bike and component manufacturers generally WON'T make both disc and rim brake frames, wheesets, component groups etc. because of the added cost of making 2 of everything. If, with the help of their paid pimps in the velo press, they can convince enough sheeple that discs are the next great thing (which they aren't by any number of objective measures) there WILL BE NO CHOICE. 

As well, the shops want to get deeper into our pockets because fewer people have or will buy the tools or acquire the skills to install/maintain disc brake systems. So they are stocking/pushing disc brakes equipped bikes as fast as they can. 

So it's not as simple as the scenario you posit. IF the bike/component/shop folks can convince enough people to buy disc brake equipped bikes, there WILL BE NO CHOICE.


----------



## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

Pirx said:


> What understanding of physics would that be which would bring you to this wonderful conclusion? Inquiring minds want to know...
> 
> 
> 
> That's not believable. He is claiming an average deceleration of almost exactly 10m/s^2, which is slightly above the typical traction limit of tires on dry asphalt. In other words, this would mean absolutely perfect braking at the traction limit, by hand. Not going to happen. I will add that there's nothing that would prevent anyone from achieving the same feat with rim brakes, of course. In either case, however, a nasty crash is the most likely outcome...


Oh, I didn't believe it. But it was a nice starting point for some calculations that highlighted the problems associated with shrinking discs: ever higher forces, higher temperatures etc. 

And I agree with your first question. I don't see how an understanding of physics would lead to the supposed conclusion.


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## bubba117 (Aug 20, 2012)

got prices from competitive cyclist a set of bb7 brake calipers with rotos would cost $170 and a set of dura ace calipers on sale is $225. having riden bikes with both stopping confidence was similar to me. that was my comparison. 

factory feel- i have ridden many different disc and caliper brake setups. all with road levers. my favorite caliper setup to get good power and modulation was with sram shifters and camillo lightweight brakes. my favorite mechanical disc set up was trp HYRD also with sram levers. I prefered the disc setup. i use the disc setup on my cross bike and throw 28c road tires on it for winter riding. Also, GCN has done many videos on disc brakes and debunked a lot of hooplah against discs


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

OldChipper said:


> If that were true, I would totally be on the same page with you - more choice = better. HOWEVER... bike and component manufacturers generally WON'T make both disc and rim brake frames, wheesets, component groups etc. because of the added cost of making 2 of everything. If, with the help of their paid pimps in the velo press, they can convince enough sheeple that discs are the next great thing (which they aren't by any number of objective measures) there WILL BE NO CHOICE.
> 
> As well, the shops want to get deeper into our pockets because fewer people have or will buy the tools or acquire the skills to install/maintain disc brake systems. So they are stocking/pushing disc brakes equipped bikes as fast as they can.
> 
> So it's not as simple as the scenario you posit. IF the bike/component/shop folks can convince enough people to buy disc brake equipped bikes, there WILL BE NO CHOICE.



Again, your hypocrisy is showing. You started another thread touting how great wireless electronic shifting is, yet by your same argument, bike manufacturers can stop making mechanical shifting ready frames because it is cheaper not to make two of everything. It certainly would be easier not to have to design for cables to run through the frames. Electronic shifting is also more expensive and heavier than mechanical and doesn't have any performance advantage, just as you like to "claim" for disc brakes. 


.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Apparently, you have some issue with my conclusion about a desire and trend toward smaller discs. I have stipulated that we have to overcome some R&D challenges to make that feasible. You apparently do not agree that smaller discs with proportionately higher pressure will make braking even more precise? Or do you agree but don't understand why the industry would be motivated to move in that direction?

I'm not really interested in some inane academic exercise since I don't get paid for effing off. Spit it out. Where is your disagreement? 

You're going to have to tell me specifically why you disagree since I have no idea what it is that you don't understand.


Pirx said:


> My question was quite clear: What "physical understanding" is it that makes you think things will go in the direction you have suggested?


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> I'm not really interested in some inane academic exercise since I don't get paid for effing off.


O.k., understood. Never mind.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

SwiftSolo said:


> Apparently, you have some issue with my conclusion about a desire and trend toward smaller discs. I have stipulated that we have to overcome some R&D challenges to make that feasible. You apparently do not agree that smaller discs with proportionately higher pressure will make braking even more precise? Or do you agree but don't understand why the industry would be motivated to move in that direction?
> 
> I'm not really interested in some inane academic exercise since I don't get paid for effing off. Spit it out. Where is your disagreement?
> 
> You're going to have to tell me specifically why you disagree since I have no idea what it is that you don't understand.


What advantage would a smaller rotor have anyway? Disk brakes already provide more precise and consistent braking than rim brakes. Until they overheat; in which case you can end up with zero brakes down a long mountain descent. I haven't ridden a road bike with disks yet but the Shimano XT brakes on my mtb provide extremely precise braking with a large range of "modulation" in the lever pull. Why would you risk boiling the brake fluid and losing your brakes for a tiny amount of extra braking precision?

I'm pretty sure Shimano has nearly maxed out heat dissipation with their ice tech rotors and pads already. Carbon rotors might be an answer to this issue and I don't think they've been used on road bikes yet. However your wet weather performance will suck which defeats part of the advantage disk brakes have to begin with.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

smaller rotors seem like a recipe for disaster.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Team-exclusive Orbea Orca Disc brake road bike for Cofidis, new budget model for rest of us - Bikerumor

:frown2:


Apparently the agreed upon specifications of thru axles and hub spacing and such is just being ignored and the teams are just going to rely on themselves for replacement wheels.

Is the consensus that the manufacturers of the industry are pushing this change on everyone? If so they sure do suck at it. They can't even agree on what sizes to make things or how to make them. They should really get their collective **** together and try harder.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Maybe a larger disc up front depending on the size size of the motor. It would seem more braking power would be needed with a 300 watt Spartacus motor instead of the usual 40 watt Sneaky Pete motor. You do not want to run the risk of the winner zooming past the Podium without collecting some flowers and a kiss on the cheek.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

It looks like Cpfidis will be on them this year at some point:

Team-exclusive Orbea Orca Disc brake road bike for Cofidis, new budget model for rest of us - Bikerumor

Orbea shows new Orca Disc at Cofidis 2016 team launch | road.cc


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Gotta hope that these guys know to shut down the motor while applying the brakes?

On the other hand, the 160 front and 140 rear rotor combo works well (been using it for a year now). Expect industry R&D to make that unnecessary soon.


BikeLayne said:


> Maybe a larger disc up front depending on the size size of the motor. It would seem more braking power would be needed with a 300 watt Spartacus motor instead of the usual 40 watt Sneaky Pete motor. You do not want to run the risk of the winner zooming past the Podium without collecting some flowers and a kiss on the cheek.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Dave, Not blowing you off. Will respond when I get a chance (next day or so).


Fajita Dave said:


> What advantage would a smaller rotor have anyway? Disk brakes already provide more precise and consistent braking than rim brakes. Until they overheat; in which case you can end up with zero brakes down a long mountain descent. I haven't ridden a road bike with disks yet but the Shimano XT brakes on my mtb provide extremely precise braking with a large range of "modulation" in the lever pull. Why would you risk boiling the brake fluid and losing your brakes for a tiny amount of extra braking precision?
> 
> I'm pretty sure Shimano has nearly maxed out heat dissipation with their ice tech rotors and pads already. Carbon rotors might be an answer to this issue and I don't think they've been used on road bikes yet. However your wet weather performance will suck which defeats part of the advantage disk brakes have to begin with.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

"Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world's first disc racing bike. Orbea will be that bike. Better than it was before. Better...stronger...faster."


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

factory feel said:


> smaller rotors seem like a recipe for disaster.


I can't see rotors getting smaller either. Unless there's some form of power brake on the horizon, all the braking force comes from hand force at the lever. To get the same braking torque, you need more force to squeeze the pads at the rotor. I don't see that happening. Maybe with better friction materials. Then there's the problem of more heat which must be removed to prevent brake fade and boiled brake fluid.


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## Chain (Dec 28, 2006)

So will this double the number of Mavic Motorcycles duing the races? One with rim brakes, another with disc?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

It wouldn't be so annoying if it weren't such a transparent attempt to force us all to buy all new frames and wheels we don't really need. They are just milking the market (us).


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Fajita Dave said:


> What advantage would a smaller rotor have anyway? Disk brakes already provide more precise and consistent braking than rim brakes. Until they overheat;* in which case you can end up with zero brakes down a long mountain descent. I haven't ridden a road bike with disks yet but the Shimano XT brakes on my mtb *provide extremely precise braking with a large range of "modulation" in the lever pull. Why would you risk boiling the brake fluid and losing your brakes for a tiny amount of extra braking precision?


When's the last time you maxed out your XTs that they went to zero braking?


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## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

https://youtu.be/ILbo2p2iWbk


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fireform said:


> It wouldn't be so annoying if it weren't such a transparent attempt to force us all to buy all new frames and wheels we don't really need. They are just milking the market (us).


It's just stuff for sale. Buy it or let It pass is all. It's only a big deal on the internet. Saturday morning I will go on the shop ride and nobody will be riding disc brakes and nobody is going to notice or talk about it. We talk about tires a lot.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

ziscwg said:


> When's the last time you maxed out your XTs that they went to zero braking?


Never completely lost them with 180mm rotors front and rear. I have had brake fade from a 35mph descent at a downhill park and I don't use the brakes that much. I do have ice tech pads but not rotors so they would have helped. My brake fade was more than likely caused by the rotors getting to hot. From a 45+mph descent with smaller rotors I think it would be pretty easy to overheat your caliper causing the brake fluid to boil. If the brake fluid boils you are pretty much screwed. For Shimano oil it boils at 536 degrees Fahrenheit.


Disc brakes problems on road bikes


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Dave, sorry for the delay:

I think we agree on the advantage of discs and part of that advantage is in the precision that comes from reducing the size of the disc and increasing the pressure from the old standard (large rim with low pressure canti's). 

Our disc size/mass ratio is far greater than in many other applications. In addition, our potential momentum is substantially lower. 

I think you may be mistaken in your belief that heat dissipation technology on bicycle discs has peaked. Ceramic/carbon discs are thought to be the best currently available for auto racing (formula one). These discs have a ceramic braking surface and a ceramic core separated and reinforced with carbon fiber. They function up to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit and weigh 1kg. Aluminum’s thermal conductivity properties, while more advantageous than stainless alone, leave a lot of room for improvement.

The advantages of smaller discs with higher hydro pressure, in addition to aero/crosswind issues and aesthetics is, I believe, in the idea that we are relatively over sized for our mass and potential velocity (momentum). I believe we have not yet optimized the precision that “right sizing” discs with momentum affords. We have come a long way toward that goal (from 700mm rims to 140mm discs) but better heat dissipation and control will take us to a higher level.


Fajita Dave said:


> Never completely lost them with 180mm rotors front and rear. I have had brake fade from a 35mph descent at a downhill park and I don't use the brakes that much. I do have ice tech pads but not rotors so they would have helped. My brake fade was more than likely caused by the rotors getting to hot. From a 45+mph descent with smaller rotors I think it would be pretty easy to overheat your caliper causing the brake fluid to boil. If the brake fluid boils you are pretty much screwed. For Shimano oil it boils at 536 degrees Fahrenheit.
> 
> 
> Disc brakes problems on road bikes


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I was lead to believe the whole carbon disc thing would never work due to the inability to work consistently when the disc is hot or cold?


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Your Idea that the only way to increase braking force is to increase hand pressure is wrong on every level. It's like saying the only way to make a hydraulic jack that can lift more weight is to increase the pressure applied to the handle.

Oversimplified, hydro brakes have a piston on the lever end and one or two large pistons on the brake caliper. You can increase power either by increasing the size of the piston on the caliper end or decreasing the size of the piston on the lever end. If you double the area of the piston on the caliper end, you will double the power. likewise, cutting the area of the piston in half on the lever end will produce the same result.


mfdemicco said:


> I can't see rotors getting smaller either. Unless there's some form of power brake on the horizon, all the braking force comes from hand force at the lever. To get the same braking torque, you need more force to squeeze the pads at the rotor. I don't see that happening. Maybe with better friction materials. Then there's the problem of more heat which must be removed to prevent brake fade and boiled brake fluid.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The disc surface is not carbon. Carbon with an epoxy matrix is used as a substrate for the ceramic core and ceramic braking surface. Think of it as a 5 layered sandwich. 3 layers of ceramic with two layers of carbon separating them.


factory feel said:


> I was lead to believe the whole carbon disc thing would never work due to the inability to work consistently when the disc is hot or cold?


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

SwiftSolo said:


> Dave, sorry for the delay:
> 
> I think we agree on the advantage of discs and part of that advantage is in the precision that comes from reducing the size of the disc and increasing the pressure from the old standard (large rim with low pressure canti's).
> 
> ...


F1 rotors are carbon-carbon and take 6 months to make each one. They also don't really work until they get extremely hot. Which will leave you with poor braking the vast majority of the time and dangerously poor braking in wet conditions.

I agree our brake rotor size to mass ratio seems more powerful than a car's braking system. On the other hand things don't always work as you might expect when they're scaled down.

Carbon fiber / ceramic rotors have been done on mountain bikes. Even with the carbon pads to match the rotor people claim you only get about 80% of the braking power you would normally get from a good steel rotor with sintered pads. Of course using Pascal's law calipers with more braking force can be made to compensate but that will bring other issues. The stronger braking force and increased friction will generate more heat at the caliper once again creating the risk of boiling brake fluid. Brake pads will need to be made larger for durability which will make the calipers larger (heavier and less aerodynamic). A larger caliper would help with heat dissipation but again you'll be dealing with the heavier and less aerodynamic issue as compared to rim brakes.

Here's a review for the SICCC carbon mountain bike rotors. I have no idea if anyone tried them on a road bike.
Review: SiCCC Rotors and Pads (Silicon Carbide, Ceramic, and Carbon fibre)

Building calipers into the fork or chain stay could use the fork (or chain stay) itself as a heat sink. It would also be very aerodynamic. The downsides would be cost and difficulty to maintain when the calipers need to be bled, rebuilt or pads changed. On the other hand the fork/frame might just trap the heat making the issue worse.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> Your Idea that the only way to increase braking force is to increase hand pressure is wrong on every level. It's like saying the only way to make a hydraulic jack that can lift more weight is to increase the pressure applied to the handle.
> 
> Oversimplified, hydro brakes have a piston on the lever end and one or two large pistons on the brake caliper. You can increase power either by increasing the size of the piston on the caliper end or decreasing the size of the piston on the lever end. If you double the area of the piston on the caliper end, you will double the power. likewise, cutting the area of the piston in half on the lever end will produce the same result.


No because there is only so much lever travel that a human hand can accommodate.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Fajita Dave said:


> Never completely lost them with 180mm rotors front and rear. I have had brake fade from a 35mph descent at a downhill park and I don't use the brakes that much. I do have ice tech pads but not rotors so they would have helped. My brake fade was more than likely caused by the rotors getting to hot. From a 45+mph descent with smaller rotors I think it would be pretty easy to overheat your caliper causing the brake fluid to boil. If the brake fluid boils you are pretty much screwed. For Shimano oil it boils at 536 degrees Fahrenheit.
> 
> 
> Disc brakes problems on road bikes


Oh yes. I remember that article and that guys experiment. He adapted some hybrid CX brakes onto a road bike with rotors and pads that were not suitable for the what the hell he was doing.

It would be like putting cork pads on your caliper brakes with alloy rims. Sure, it will work for a bit around the general riding, but take those cork pads on a long DH road ride and you'd be looking for a way out too.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

mfdemicco said:


> No because there is only so much lever travel that a human hand can accommodate.


All you need is a larger piston in the master cylinder. It will result in more clamping force at the caliper for the same amount of squeezing effort at the lever. With my understanding of it since fluid doesn't compress; it won't cause a longer lever pull.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You are correct about Formula one. My bad 

Ceramic carbon is used mostly on sports cars "SGL Carbon Ceramic Brakes is currently the leading producer of carbon ceramic discs, and supplies these components for the most exclusive models of prestigious brands such as Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Corvette, Nissan, Lexus, McLaren, Volkswagen, Porsche, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti and AMG".


On the other hand, the point remains that ceramic/carbon is a substantial improvement over aluminum/stainless for heat dissipation. 

To be fair, I've been using ice tech rotors and pads (both organic and metalic) for two years. The first year I used 140's for my trip to the winding hairpins of the Dolomites and had no overheating issues with the steep and frequent 180 degree turns. Last year, I did the same trip with a 160mm ice tech front and think I like it a bit better (but not certain i notice the difference). The problem with road discs on the steep is that even with your ass well behind the seat, you are mostly riding on the front wheel. You can hear the rear tire making a rumbling sound that occurs at the point of max cf. Fortunately, the precision of the brakes allows you to hold that level of braking force consistently during deceleration. 

I'm going to switch back to 140's both front and back for this years trip. One thing is certain--a 140 on the rear is overkill, even with a stainless/aluminum disc I'm pretty sure I can lock it up with one finger from the hoods when used in conjunction with the fronts, if I wanted to.


Fajita Dave said:


> F1 rotors are carbon-carbon and take 6 months to make each one. They also don't really work until they get extremely hot. Which will leave you with poor braking the vast majority of the time and dangerously poor braking in wet conditions.
> 
> I agree our brake rotor size to mass ratio seems more powerful than a car's braking system. On the other hand things don't always work as you might expect when they're scaled down.
> 
> ...


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

or we could just keep using caliper brakes and save ourselves all this frustration.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think we agree on the advantage of discs and part of that advantage is in the precision that comes from reducing the size of the disc and increasing the pressure from the old standard (large rim with low pressure canti's).


What do you think is the logical connection between disk size and "precision"? You might want to explain what you mean by "precision" first, of course. Once you have done that, tell us why increasing pressure would increase "precision". You know, based on some sort of physical argument.



SwiftSolo said:


> I think you may be mistaken in your belief that heat dissipation technology on bicycle discs has peaked. Ceramic/carbon discs are thought to be the best currently available for auto racing (formula one). These discs have a ceramic braking surface and a ceramic core separated and reinforced with carbon fiber. They function up to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit and weigh 1kg. Aluminum’s thermal conductivity properties, while more advantageous than stainless alone, leave a lot of room for improvement.


I think you have no understanding of the physics of disk brakes, at all. The advantage of those carbon-ceramic disks has nothing whatsoever to do with conductivity. As a matter of fact, as far as conductivity is concerned, aluminum would be a much, much better material (typical thermal conductivity of aluminum is around 200W/(m K), ceramics range somewhere between 1 and maybe around 100 W/(m K)). The reason why those carbon-ceramic disks are used is simply because they remain stable up to very high temperatures. For the functionality of disk brakes, thermal conductivity is near-irrelevant. Heat transfer to the surrounding air is not, however, hence the _large_ ventilated disks in high-performance cars/motorcycles. 



SwiftSolo said:


> The advantages of smaller discs with higher hydro pressure, in addition to aero/crosswind issues and aesthetics is, I believe, in the idea that we are relatively over sized for our mass and potential velocity (momentum). I believe we have not yet optimized the precision that “right sizing” discs with momentum affords. We have come a long way toward that goal (from 700mm rims to 140mm discs) but better heat dissipation and control will take us to a higher level.


You can of course believe whatever you like, but whatever it is you believe, it is clearly not supported by any physics at all. In short, you're just fantasizing.



SwiftSolo said:


> On the other hand, the point remains that ceramic/carbon is a substantial improvement over aluminum/stainless for heat dissipation.


No, your "point" is pure fantasy.



SwiftSolo said:


> I'm going to switch back to 140's both front and back for this years trip. One thing is certain--a 140 on the rear is overkill, even with a stainless/aluminum disc I'm pretty sure I can lock it up with one finger from the hoods when used in conjunction with the fronts, if I wanted to.


I will note that anyone can lock up a rear wheel with a rim brake "with one finger from the hoods". There is no meaningful difference in stopping power, at least not in dry conditions, between rim and disk brakes. Stopping power these days, for any decent brake system, is limited by tire traction, not by the brakes.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Fajita Dave said:


> All you need is a larger piston in the master cylinder. It will result in more clamping force at the caliper for the same amount of squeezing effort at the lever. With my understanding of it since fluid doesn't compress; it won't cause a longer lever pull.


Your understanding is wrong. You need to displace more fluid to move the larger pad by the same amount. In the end, it's simple mechanics: The product of force times travel must be constant.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> On the other hand, the point remains that ceramic/carbon is a substantial improvement over aluminum/stainless for heat dissipation.


You're a little mixed up over heat dissipation. Ceramic and Carbon aren't very thermally conductive. This is why Shimano uses ceramic for their pistons. If ceramic was a good heat dissipater, it would dissipate heat right into the hydraulic fluid and caliper.



Fajita Dave said:


> All you need is a larger piston in the master cylinder. It will result in more clamping force at the caliper for the same amount of squeezing effort at the lever. With my understanding of it since fluid doesn't compress; it won't cause a longer lever pull.


Nope. If you increase the piston, you increase the volume of fluid required. So you would need a longer lever pull.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

BikeLayne said:


> It's just stuff for sale. Buy it or let It pass is all. It's only a big deal on the internet. Saturday morning I will go on the shop ride and nobody will be riding disc brakes and nobody is going to notice or talk about it. We talk about tires a lot.


As has been pointed out in this thread already, this is wishful thinking. If enough lemmings chase after the miraculous disc brakes, rim brake bikes will be phased out. To the great glee of bike and component manufacturers--this is a potential gold mine for them. The frames and wheels are incompatible, and no one will have top end offerings of both. So there will be no choice and we will be stuck with this fabulous technological advance, like the great leap forward that was BB30. At least for that crap design I didn't need to buy new wheels.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

If you'd like to re-post your thoughts and questions like an adult instead of an insecure adolescent, I'd be happy to respond to those issues that are relevant to the premise. 

It would also be good if you could learn how to use a dictionary to find definitions of complicated words like "precision".

As I pointed out before, I have no interest in childish and inane academic exercises. Understand, not all of us are trying to kill time.


Pirx said:


> What do you think is the logical connection between disk size and "precision"? You might want to explain what you mean by "precision" first, of course. Once you have done that, tell us why increasing pressure would increase "precision". You know, based on some sort of physical argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Pirx said:


> Your understanding is wrong. You need to displace more fluid to move the larger pad by the same amount. In the end, it's simple mechanics: The product of force times travel must be constant.


Thanks for the correction! Sorry I was thinking of it backwards last night. The calipers would need a larger piston to increase force; not the master cylinder. Moving a larger caliper piston with more fluid and an equal sized master cylinder piston would require a longer lever pull.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Bottom line, given that, for ergonomic reasons, force and travel at the lever are fixed, if you want or need more force on the brake calipers, you need to reduce travel at the caliper. That in turn forces you to reduce tolerances, which may not be practical under the conditions of cycling (i.e., the need to change wheels quickly if needed).

We note that reduced disk size automatically requires higher forces on the calipers, meaning you'll be subject to the above rule.

Finally, as for those analogies to brake systems for high-performance cars: Just look at the brakes that are used by these. What you'll find is that they use disks that are as large as possible subject to the constraint that disks plus caliper assembly need to fit inside the wheel.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> If you'd like to re-post your thoughts and questions like an adult instead of an insecure adolescent, I'd be happy to respond to those issues that are relevant to the premise.


Would you like to point out what exactly in my post would qualify as immature? Don't worry, it's just a rhetorical question. 

Here, I'll tell you a secret: Your internet-ninja technique of slinking out of an argument that has grown uncomfortable by using the ever-popular _Circumstantial Ad Hominem_ fallacy which works so well in PO, doesn't work quite so well when you're pretending to discuss physics. I have offered you some rigorous criticism of the naïve notions you have of disk brake physics. I understand you have no understanding whatsoever of the topic and thus have nothing to contribute.



SwiftSolo said:


> It would also be good if you could learn how to use a dictionary to find definitions of complicated words like "precision".


Ah, so you really believe a dictionary would answer my question? Alright.



SwiftSolo said:


> As I pointed out before, I have no interest in childish and inane academic exercises. Understand, not all of us are trying to kill time.


"Academic exercises", eh? So, you feel that when discussing physics, bringing in the science of physics is an "academic exercise"? I guess just going by gut feeling is the way you would approach the topic, right?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I have a hard time believing disc brakes are going to change a whole bunch from their current configurations despite all of the space age materials and miniaturization techniques fantasized in the thread.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Pirx said:


> Here, I'll tell you a secret: Your internet-ninja technique of slinking out of an argument that has grown uncomfortable by using the ever-popular _Circumstantial Ad Hominem_ fallacy...


he he, internet ninja, he he. Dammit it, I'm enjoying this.

I shall now get me some knee-sliders to go with some carbon fiber disc brakes in smallish 80mm diameter. After all, if the motoGP boys are using them, and motoGP is the pinnacle of 2wheel racing, then by transitive reasoning (if a > b, and b > c, then a > c), any cyclist not using them are Luddites.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

factory feel said:


> I have a hard time believing disc brakes are going to change a whole bunch from their current configurations despite all of the space age materials and miniaturization techniques fantasized in the thread.


Disc brake technology is hardly knew even on bikes. They're not just going to miraculously become half their current size and weight.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> or we could just keep using caliper brakes and save ourselves all this frustration.


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What would ASFOS and I do all night if all the bikes were rim braked again????

I guess we could talk about why wider tires (25 mm) are better than skinnier (<23mm) tires


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> I have a hard time believing disc brakes are going to change a whole bunch from their current configurations despite all of the space age materials and miniaturization techniques fantasized in the thread.


They won't, but the marketing dept will make you think you can't live without the improvement the company just made in their brakes.

The marketing guy will say, "You can go 45mph downhill, in the rain, with 60 mm carbon hoopies, and stop in 21.63 meters." :idea:


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

ziscwg said:


> The marketing guy will say, "You can go 45mph downhill, in the rain, with 60 mm carbon hoopies, and stop in 21.63 meters." :idea:


Heheh, sure, he can say that. It'll literally be no skin off of his back, and legs, and arms...


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Disc brake technology is hardly knew even on bikes. They're not just going to miraculously become half their current size and weight.


Yep. Believe it or not, the guys who designed those brakes did in fact know a thing or two about the physics and engineering of brakes. Which appears in stark contrast to certain resident internet heroes around here.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Pirx said:


> Yep. Believe it or not, the guys who designed those brakes did in fact know a thing or two about the physics and engineering of brakes. Which appears in stark contrast to certain resident internet heroes around here.


Hey, my designs have appeared many places.



....just not on any bikes


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> he he, internet ninja, he he. Dammit it, I'm enjoying this.
> 
> I shall now get me some knee-sliders to go with some carbon fiber disc brakes in smallish 80mm diameter. After all, if the motoGP boys are using them, and motoGP is the pinnacle of 2wheel racing, then by transitive reasoning (if a > b, and b > c, then a > c), any cyclist not using them are Luddites.


May I remind y'all chromium molybdenum steel tubing and manganaese molybdenum tubing were originally designed for aircraft frames. Ahem. Aluminum and carbon fiber likewise. So don't get snooty about spill over of technologies from motor sports to cycling. :nono: The latest and greatest soon trickles down on us!


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> May I remind y'all chromium molybdenum steel tubing and manganaese molybdenum tubing were originally designed for aircraft frames. Ahem. Aluminum and carbon fiber likewise. So don't get snooty about spill over of technologies from motor sports to cycling. :nono: *The latest and greatest soon trickles down on us!*



NO WAY
Cyclists invented carbon fiber from Tinker Toys!!!


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Pirx said:


> Bottom line, given that, for ergonomic reasons, force and travel at the lever are fixed, if you want or need more force on the brake calipers, you need to reduce travel at the caliper. That in turn forces you to reduce tolerances, which may not be practical under the conditions of cycling (i.e., the need to change wheels quickly if needed).
> 
> We note that reduced disk size automatically requires higher forces on the calipers, meaning you'll be subject to the above rule.
> 
> ...



Those high performance cars use such large disk brakes because modern sports cars have become really big and really heavy which means more pistons and bigger brake rotors to compensate for the physics. I have an 1100lb sports car that it uses tiny discs and out-brakes many of these new sports cars, in fact it brakes from 70mph in about the same distance as that GT3 you pictured (and without ABS or big fat tires). 
So unless you're expecting road bikes to get considerably heavier, showing how big the disc has become on a modern performance car doesn't really prove your point. 

As to why does more pressure makes for more precision, here is an article that explains it

Road Disc Brakes, Your Essential Guide | Bicycling



> The greater degree of control comes as the result of a bit of counterintuitive physics. A disc rotor's smaller diameter compared with a rim's brake track means it has to work harder to stop a bike. But because it's working harder, you get better control (modulation), explains Wayne Lumpkin, founder of Avid Brakes and creator of the Ball Bearing mechanical and Juicy hydraulic disc brakes. How much harder does it have to work? According to Lumpkin, disc-brake pads must squeeze with about 1,000 pounds of force to achieve near-lockup, while a rim brake needs only 200 pounds for the same job. The larger span (0 to 1,000 pounds versus 0 to 200) is a bigger window in which to control braking force; hence, better modulation.





> Then there's the superior feel of a disc brake. The calipers found on most road bikes are relatively flexible and are mounted to a bicycle with a single small-diameter bolt. Their job is to squeeze rubbery pads against a compressible brake track. A disc, by contrast, uses a stiffer caliper and squeezes largely noncompressible pads against an incompressible rotor, giving you a solid, precise feel.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

MoPho said:


> As to why does more pressure makes for more precision, here is an article that explains it
> 
> Road Disc Brakes, Your Essential Guide | Bicycling


I'm happy to believe that disc brakes "modulate" better, but could you explain this explanation to me? Because when you start to think about it, it doesn't make sense at all. If I give you two levers with (say) 30° travel, and one "modulates" a force from 0 to 210 N, and the other a force from 0 tot 1050 N, how come you suddenly have more control? Assuming perfect linearity, a difference of 1° is 7 N in the first case and 35 N in the second case. And now what?


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

HFroller said:


> I'm happy to believe that disc brakes "modulate" better, but could you explain this explanation to me? Because when you start to think about it, it doesn't make sense at all. If I give you two levers with (say) 30° travel, and one "modulates" a force from 0 to 210 N, and the other a force from 0 tot 1050 N, how come you suddenly have more control? Assuming perfect linearity, a difference of 1° is 7 N in the first case and 35 N in the second case. And now what?



If I was an engineer, I wouldn't have needed to post a link to an article explaining it now would I? 
Write the magazine or the engineer at Avid and ask him


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> May I remind y'all chromium molybdenum steel tubing and manganaese molybdenum tubing were originally designed for aircraft frames. Ahem. Aluminum and carbon fiber likewise. So don't get snooty about spill over of technologies from motor sports to cycling. :nono: The latest and greatest soon trickles down on us!


But, and this is a big butt, cars and airplanes never had rim brakes. 

Rim brakes are a brilliantly simple purpose-specific solution to the challenge of efficiently slowing or stopping a bicycle. 

Modulation? How about the predictably progressive flattening of the toe-in of rim brakes as more pressure is added to the brake lever, thus increasing the surface area of the brake pad to the rim?


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

HFroller said:


> I'm happy to believe that disc brakes "modulate" better, but could you explain this explanation to me? Because when you start to think about it, it doesn't make sense at all. If I give you two levers with (say) 30° travel, and one "modulates" a force from 0 to 210 N, and the other a force from 0 tot 1050 N, how come you suddenly have more control? Assuming perfect linearity, a difference of 1° is 7 N in the first case and 35 N in the second case. And now what?


It stops making sense even more once you realize that there's no difference at the brake levers, which is what the rider actually feels. In both cases, the forces at the lever are roughly the same. For the rider, it doesn't make one wit of a difference what the forces at the calipers are. In both cases the _rider_ modulates over the same force range and, like you said, over the same range of motion. Where's the difference?

P.S.: Thinking about this some more, here's another thought: Perhaps the feeling (or shall we say, illusion?) of better modulation comes from the following effect: It is possible that active force transmission in a hydraulic disk system is stiffer than for a mechanical caliper system. By that I mean that lever travel from the point of the pads touching the rim or disk to a given _lever_ force (say, 20 pounds) would be less for the hydraulic disk brakes than for the rim brakes. Thus the rider would increase the force on the levers, but while doing so the levers would move much less for the hydraulic system than for the rim brake. 

I will note that whether or not such an effect (or even its opposite) exists isn't clear a priori: Sure, those rim pads are much softer than disk pads, but the forces at the rim are much lower, too. Plus, a good part of the perceived stiffness derives from other parts of the system (cables, calipers, hydraulic lines, lever mechanics, etc.). So, can anyone test if that is the case?


----------



## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

MoPho said:


> Those high performance cars use such large disk brakes because modern sports cars have become really big and really heavy which means more pistons and bigger brake rotors to compensate for the physics. I have an 1100lb sports car that it uses tiny discs and out-brakes many of these new sports cars, in fact it brakes from 70mph in about the same distance as that GT3 you pictured (and without ABS or big fat tires).
> So unless you're expecting road bikes to get considerably heavier, showing how big the disc has become on a modern performance car doesn't really prove your point.


I'm not sure what you think what point it is my remark on the car brakes was supposed to prove. All I was saying was that car brakes do not make for a good analogy. I have a feeling you might agree. 

Oh, and of course the size of those disks in high-performance cars has next to nothing to do with braking forces. This is all about thermal management. 

I remember there was this video of people testing brakes between some expensive sportscar (a Porsche, I think) versus some cheap Japanese wannabe. What they did was take both cars up to 120mph or so and then brake hard to a standstill; then rinse and repeat. First time around that Japanese car would brake just as fine as the Porsche, as you would expect. Like I said, brake forces are not the issue (neither for cars nor for bicycles, by the way). 
Well, long story short, by the third time around that Japanese car's brakes were destroyed and unusable. The Porsche's brakes were glowing orange, but the car would still brake.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Tig,
You are correct. We were talking about this in the context of problems of heat transmission to the hydraulic fluid and I should have said "isolation".

/


tlg said:


> You're a little mixed up over heat dissipation. Ceramic and Carbon aren't very thermally conductive. This is why Shimano uses ceramic for their pistons. If ceramic was a good heat dissipater, it would dissipate heat right into the hydraulic fluid and caliper.
> 
> Nope. If you increase the piston, you increase the volume of fluid required. So you would need a longer lever pull.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Pirx said:


> I will note that anyone can lock up a rear wheel with a rim brake "with one finger from the hoods". There is no meaningful difference in stopping power, at least not in dry conditions, between rim and disk brakes. Stopping power these days, for any decent brake system, is limited by tire traction, not by the brakes.


I'd have a hard time locking the rear wheel with rim brakes from the hoods. Not even sure I could. I can from the drops but I never have from the hoods. I know my GF definitely could never lock up the rear from the hoods, probably not from the drops either. 

With discs on the other hand, I can easily lock up the rear from the hoods, with one finger at the very top of the lever (on the red dot). 









Now does that translate into more stopping power? Not necessarily. Not in the dry. Traction is still the limiting factor.




Pirx said:


> P.S.: Thinking about this some more, here's another thought: Perhaps the feeling (or shall we say, illusion?) of better modulation comes from the following effect: It is possible that active force transmission in a hydraulic disk system is stiffer than for a mechanical caliper system. By that I mean that lever travel from the point of the pads touching the rim or disk to a given _lever_ force (say, 20 pounds) would be less for the hydraulic disk brakes than for the rim brakes. Thus the rider would increase the force on the levers, but while doing so the levers would move much less for the hydraulic system than for the rim brake.
> 
> I will note that whether or not such an effect (or even its opposite) exists isn't clear a priori: Sure, those rim pads are much softer than disk pads, but the forces at the rim are much lower, too. Plus, a good part of the perceived stiffness derives from other parts of the system (cables, calipers, hydraulic lines, lever mechanics, etc.). So, can anyone test if that is the case?


Maybe. I'm not exactly clear what you want to test.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

"Would you like to point out what exactly in my post would qualify as immature? Don't worry, it's just a rhetorical question."

The answer will come to you should you become an adult.

" I have offered you some rigorous criticism of the naïve notions you have of disk brake physics. I understand you have no understanding whatsoever of the topic and thus have nothing to contribute." 

This is the same technique that teenagers use. Before telling a lie, accuse the person you are preparing to lie about of being a liar. It sometimes works with other children but not so much with adults.

"Ah, so you really believe a dictionary would answer my question? Alright."
And
"Academic exercises", eh? So, you feel that when discussing physics, bringing in the science of physics is an "academic exercise"? I guess just going by gut feeling is the way you would approach the topic, right?"
It's not that complicated to ferret out these definitions--but since you are struggling:
*Academic*: not of practical relevance; of only theoretical interest: 
"the debate has been largely academic" 
*Precision*: the quality, condition, or fact of being exact and accurate:

Admittedly, I'm assuming that you understand the meaning of the words used to define "*academic*" and "*precision*"

If you have any observations about road hydro disc brakes and can document them in an adult fashion, I'd be glad to engage. I have a clear understanding and two years of experience in using them in as close to an ideal testing ground as you are likely to find in nature. It's not clear that you have either.






Pirx said:


> Would you like to point out what exactly in my post would qualify as immature? Don't worry, it's just a rhetorical question.
> 
> Here, I'll tell you a secret: Your internet-ninja technique of slinking out of an argument that has grown uncomfortable by using the ever-popular _Circumstantial Ad Hominem_ fallacy which works so well in PO, doesn't work quite so well when you're pretending to discuss physics. I have offered you some rigorous criticism of the naïve notions you have of disk brake physics. I understand you have no understanding whatsoever of the topic and thus have nothing to contribute.
> 
> ...


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

tlg said:


> I'd have a hard time locking the rear wheel with rim brakes from the hoods. Not even sure I could. I can from the drops but I never have from the hoods. I know my GF definitely could never lock up the rear from the hoods, probably not from the drops either.
> 
> Now does that translate into more stopping power? Not necessarily. Not in the dry. Traction is still the limiting factor.


I have absolutely no problem locking the rear (or the front) wheel with my ultegra rim brakes from the hoods. And I don't have particularly strong hands. If you GF can't lock the rear wheel from the drops, it's time to set up the brakes properly.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

HFroller said:


> I have absolutely no problem locking the rear (or the front) wheel with my ultegra rim brakes from the hoods. And I don't have particularly strong hands. If you GF can't lock the rear wheel from the drops, it's time to set up the brakes properly.


Or maybe she just has small hands. 

You think I don't know how to set up brakes properly? lol Ok, give me your wisdom what I'm doing wrong.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> We were talking about this in the context of problems of heat transmission to the hydraulic fluid and I should have said "isolation".


Say what? "Isolation"? What in the world is that supposed to mean? Here, let me take your advice and look this up in the dictionary: 

Noun: isolation
1. A state of separation between persons or groups
2. A feeling of being disliked and alone
3. The act of isolating something; setting something apart from others
4. (psychiatry) a defense mechanism in which memory of an unacceptable act or impulse is separated from the emotion originally associated with it
5. A country's withdrawal from international politics

Hmm, I wonder, which one of these is it?

Perhaps you meant "insulation"?

Noun: insulation
1. The state of being isolated or detached
2. A material that reduces or prevents the transmission of heat or sound or electricity
3. The act of protecting something by surrounding it with material that reduces or prevents the transmission of sound or heat or electricity

Sounds much closer, eh? So now you're saying you should have said the opposite of what you, in fact, did say, and repeatedly? Very funny, really.

Unfortunately, it turns out that none of these is very relevant to the design of the disks we were talking about.

Seriously, I think you would have been much better off not saying anything about a topic that you clearly have no understanding of.



SwiftSolo said:


> I have a clear understanding and two years of experience in using them in as close to an ideal testing ground as you are likely to find in nature. It's not clear that you have either.


No, you have no understanding at all. That much is entirely clear.

Oh, and I won't respond to the rest of the infantile **** you seem to consider a response to what I wrote. You can take that kind of crap to PO. Like I said, that stuff may serve you well over there, but it just makes you look like a fool when trying to discuss a technical problem. Did you know that most people can see quite easily that all you're doing is avoiding to address the actual topic? Live and learn my dear friend, live and learn.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

tlg said:


> Maybe. I'm not exactly clear what you want to test.


Roughly what you would do is the following: Put the bike in a vertical position (so the brake levers are roughly horizontal). Move the levers to the point where the pads make full contact with the rim/disk, and note the position of the lever. Then hang some known weight from the levers (say, ten pounds), and measure how much the levers have moved. Then compare the travel of the levers in this scenario between the two systems.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The entire thing about "locking up the rear brake with one finger from the hoods" was in the context that, with exceptionally good front brakes on bikes, the rear brake/tire is less significant. The amount of weight remaining on the rear (on dry pavement) is reduced to the point that, with the current technology, a smaller disc is unlikely to lack power or overheat.

Like most of that post, by ignoring context, it was possible to distort what was clearly meant.


tlg said:


> I'd have a hard time locking the rear wheel with rim brakes from the hoods. Not even sure I could. I can from the drops but I never have from the hoods. I know my GF definitely could never lock up the rear from the hoods, probably not from the drops either.
> 
> With discs on the other hand, I can easily lock up the rear from the hoods, with one finger at the very top of the lever (on the red dot).
> 
> ...


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Pirx said:


> Roughly what you would do is the following: Put the bike in a vertical position (so the brake levers are roughly horizontal). Move the levers to the point where the pads make full contact with the rim/disk, and note the position of the lever. Then hang some known weight from the levers (say, ten pounds), and measure how much the levers have moved. Then compare the travel of the levers in this scenario between the two systems.


Ok, now I gotcha. You want to measure/compare lever movement at given forces. I can do that with a force gauge and calipers pretty accurately. Might take a couple days to get around to it. I'll need a 2nd set of hands.

And yea, you're correct, the hydraulic system will have significantly less lever movement once the pads make contact. In fact it'll probably be hard to even measure. 
On rim brakes the compression of the housing and pads translates to a bit more lever movement.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Honey,
It may be time to grow up. I'm not sure of your age, but I assume it's beyond 12 YO?


Pirx said:


> Say what? "Isolation"? What in the world is that supposed to mean? Here, let me take your advice and look this up in the dictionary:
> 
> Noun: isolation
> 1. A state of separation between persons or groups
> ...


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

All this blow back kinda proves that disc brakes are largely unwanted.

The industry should take a look at what's being said on the message boards.

"We don't want mountain bike brakes on our finely tuned road bikes!"


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I think there are many factors to consider. Beyond the posted article (short on time and did not read it all)one factor is that discs have exit holes for water and debris typically about ever 10mm on center. Water and debris face approximately 25 exit holes/scrubbers on every revolution. By design, some of the holes scrub the disc and some discharge the debris. 

Rim brakes have none. Debris initially trapped between the pad and rim often remains for several revolutions.

An easy way to understand modulation is to get a child's top and spin it. Assume your task is to smoothly reduce the rpms by half. First try it by squeezing the large part of the top and then try it by squeezing the small part near the point. You'll find that high pressure near the point works much better than low pressure near the large diameter.

There is more to it than this simple example because a top with a high mass (made of lead) may burn up your fingers before you can halve the rpms.


HFroller said:


> I'm happy to believe that disc brakes "modulate" better, but could you explain this explanation to me? Because when you start to think about it, it doesn't make sense at all. If I give you two levers with (say) 30° travel, and one "modulates" a force from 0 to 210 N, and the other a force from 0 tot 1050 N, how come you suddenly have more control? Assuming perfect linearity, a difference of 1° is 7 N in the first case and 35 N in the second case. And now what?


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

factory feel said:


> All this blow back kinda proves that disc brakes are largely unwanted.
> 
> The industry should take a look at what's being said on the message boards.
> 
> "We don't want mountain bike brakes on our finely tuned road bikes!"


Exactly.

I mean, what's next? Goofball hydraulic forks on road bikes? Sheesh.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> All this blow back kinda proves that disc brakes are largely unwanted.
> 
> The industry should take a look at what's being said on the message boards.
> 
> "We don't want mountain bike brakes on our finely tuned road bikes!"



Five people continually whining about it on a forum is a lot of "blow back"? :lol: 


.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

MoPho said:


> Five people continually whining about it on a forum is a lot of "blow back"? :lol:
> 
> 
> .


It's the _quality_ of the blow back that counts, not the quantity.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

SPlKE said:


> It's the _quality_ of the blow back that counts, not the quantity.



404 Quality Not Found


.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Write the magazine or the engineer at Avid and ask him


Is this the same Avid that had all of their brakes recalled because they weren't designed right? Hell no, I won't be taking any advice from that **** company or engineer ever.




tlg said:


> I'd have a hard time locking the rear wheel with rim brakes from the hoods. Not even sure I could. I can from the drops but I never have from the hoods. I know my GF definitely could never lock up the rear from the hoods, probably not from the drops either.




I can do it no problem. Maybe you were using the older style levers not designed for it (before 11 speed). And of course I can lock the front no problems. Every time I stop for a dog I lock the front and lift the rear off of the ground. From the hoods. And I have little tiny hands.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Pirx said:


> I'm not sure what you think what point it is my remark on the car brakes was supposed to prove. All I was saying was that car brakes do not make for a good analogy. I have a feeling you might agree.
> 
> Oh, and of course the size of those disks in high-performance cars has next to nothing to do with braking forces. This is all about thermal management.
> 
> ...


I worked on that test The Power to Stop - Car Comparison - Car and Driver



> Like I said, brake forces are not the issue


Not true, both the Porsche and the Nissan had similar sized brakes and multi-piston calipers. Had the Nissan had smaller brakes and single piston calipers ( i.e. less force and contact patch) it would not have stopped in a distance close to that of the Porsche on the first time around either. 




.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> I can do it no problem. Maybe you were using the older style levers not designed for it (before 11 speed). And of course I can lock the front no problems. Every time I stop for a dog I lock the front and lift the rear off of the ground. From the hoods. And I have little tiny hands.[/FONT]


Pre 11sp. Various setups. Sram Red, Ultegra, 105.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

tlg said:


> Pre 11sp. Various setups. Sram Red, Ultegra, 105.


Well I guess it goes without saying that it's much better now.

The new generation of Shimano brakes are NOT compatible with any other brand nor with any older generation of Shimano brakes. They have some new technologies that both changed the lever design, function and pull ratio. One of the large benefits from this new design, especially for those like me with tiny hands, is the vastly improved braking from the hoods. Something like 30% easier/more force or whatever they quoted. Makes a real difference to me. It was actually the determining feature that made me switch all four bikes to 11 speed immediately upon it's release.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Well I guess it goes without saying that it's much better now.
> 
> The new generation of Shimano brakes are NOT compatible with any other brand nor with any older generation of Shimano brakes. They have some new technologies that both changed the lever design, function and pull ratio. One of the large benefits from this new design, especially for those like me with tiny hands, is the vastly improved braking from the hoods. Something like 30% easier/more force or whatever they quoted. Makes a real difference to me. It was actually the determining feature that made me switch all four bikes to 11 speed immediately upon it's release.


Ughh. Don't tell my GF that. She'll want an upgrade.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

tlg said:


> Ughh. Don't tell my GF that. She'll want an upgrade.


My lips are sealed LOL.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

MoPho said:


> I worked on that test The Power to Stop - Car Comparison - Car and Driver


Interesting. It's not the same test I remember (I think that was much longer ago), but same idea, and more cars tested.



MoPho said:


> Not true, both the Porsche and the Nissan had similar sized brakes and multi-piston calipers. Had the Nissan had smaller brakes and single piston calipers ( i.e. less force and contact patch) it would not have stopped in a distance close to that of the Porsche on the first time around either.


Lots of unknowns there, with a bunch of hypothetical "ifs". I'll just say that it is possible to have smaller disks giving you the same stopping power as larger ones.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> An easy way to understand modulation is to get a child's top and spin it.


Oh dear god...



SwiftSolo said:


> You'll find that high pressure near the point works much better than low pressure near the large diameter.


How about this: Tried spinning my rear wheel, and then reduce the rpm smoothly, once by pinching the rim between my thumb and index finger, and once by squeezing the smooth part of the hub on the NDS. I found that low pressure at the large diameter (rim) "works much better" than high pressure near the hub. In particular, modulation was far better in the former case.

Now what?


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

MMsRepBike said:


> The new generation of Shimano brakes are NOT compatible with any other brand nor with any older generation of Shimano brakes.


Well... They'll work perfectly fine with other brands or models. It's just brakes, you know; you somehow squeeze the calipers together to press the pads against the rim. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

But, no doubt, they will work best with the levers they were designed for.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Pirx said:


> Well... They'll work perfectly fine with other brands or models. It's just brakes, you know; you somehow squeeze the calipers together to press the pads against the rim. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
> 
> But, no doubt, they will work best with the levers they were designed for.


Don't be so sure of that. 




"It'll be mushy. So mushy in fact that it's dangerous."


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

MMsRepBike said:


> Don't be so sure of that


Ah, I didn't know they changed the pull ratio so significantly. Well, alright, I'll take back what I said on this.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Pirx said:


> Well... They'll work perfectly fine with other brands or models. It's just brakes, you know; you somehow squeeze the calipers together to press the pads against the rim. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
> 
> But, no doubt, they will work best with the levers they were designed for.


http://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com/2.9?acid=C-456&cid=C-453

Shimano documentation has them listed as compatible with with older versions. 5700 brakes will work with 9000 levers or 9000 levers with 5700,7900 brakes etc.

I'll also have no problem locking my wheels with rim brakes from the hoods (5700 stuff). Never attempted to with a single finger but I don't think I would want it to be that easy to do on accident either.

Art's could have just been wanting to sell new groupsets? 7800 isn't listed at all so that might be too old.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Well I guess it goes without saying that it's much better now.
> 
> The new generation of Shimano brakes are NOT compatible with any other brand nor with any older generation of Shimano brakes. They have some new technologies that both changed the lever design, function and pull ratio. One of the large benefits from this new design, especially for those like me with tiny hands, is the vastly improved braking from the hoods. Something like 30% easier/more force or whatever they quoted. Makes a real difference to me. It was actually the determining feature that made me switch all four bikes to 11 speed immediately upon it's release.



Wait…What?! Shimano forced you to buy new stuff?!! Those bastards are part of the conspiracy too!!! 


.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

MoPho said:


> Wait…What?! Shimano forced you to buy new stuff?!! Those bastards are part of the conspiracy too!!!
> 
> 
> .


Yes, if your bike does not have disk brakes, you bike is unusable..................


or


At least that is the way the marketing dept wants you to think.


I think this comes down to compatibility that meets their standards. You can mix and match things, but it might not be optimal.

Brakes are somewhere guessing at a configuration wrong can get you hurt. So, one needs to tread lightly. Luckily, there is always someone who tries it. You can learn from them. There are many Shimano mtb brake threads where guys want DH calipers with XC race levers. So, XTR levers with Saint calipers. Somethings work well, others not so much.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

tlg said:


> Or maybe she just has small hands.
> 
> You think I don't know how to set up brakes properly? lol Ok, give me your wisdom what I'm doing wrong.


Apologies if that remark came over as too abrasive.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

HFroller said:


> Apologies if that remark came over as too abrasive.


It's all good. It's just the interwebs.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Wait…What?! Shimano forced you to buy new stuff?!! Those bastards are part of the conspiracy too!!!
> 
> 
> .


They sure did. I forgive them though because they drastically improved the shifting too. I'm quite impressed with their new groups.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Pirx said:


> Oh dear god...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That could be because you're not too bright. It's becoming clear that you have neither applicable knowledge of physics nor actual experience with disc brakes.

Anyway, I now feel ashamed for aggravating your insecurity and I want to apologize. Be assured that I recognize that you're Special and that further displays of your brilliance on this subject will remain unchallenged/ignored by me.


----------



## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> They sure did. I forgive them though because they drastically improved the shifting too. I'm quite impressed with their new groups.


Don't believe him MoPho, the velominati are clearly holding his family hostage until he convinces at least 100 other people to upgrade to 11sp. After all, EVERYBODY KNOWS that 10 sp is all that people will ever need and that 11sp can have no possible value add to anybody. Keep the faith :cornut:


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

cooskull said:


> Don't believe him MoPho, the velominati are clearly holding his family hostage until he convinces at least 100 other people to upgrade to 11sp. After all, EVERYBODY KNOWS that 10 sp is all that people will ever need and that 11sp can have no possible value add to anybody. Keep the faith :cornut:


It will all be for naught as in the end we will all be dismembered by spinning brake discs, it's all part of the master plan...



.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

ziscwg said:


> NO WAY
> Cyclists invented carbon fiber from Tinker Toys!!!


Good point! I won't mention names, but have to agree that must be the case with many cyclists!


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> But, and this is a big butt, cars and airplanes never had rim brakes.
> 
> Rim brakes are a brilliantly simple purpose-specific solution to the challenge of efficiently slowing or stopping a bicycle.
> 
> Modulation? How about the predictably progressive flattening of the toe-in of rim brakes as more pressure is added to the brake lever, thus increasing the surface area of the brake pad to the rim?


That's right. A rim is a big disc, after all.

Modulation smoldulation! Rider adjusts modulation with his hands, on the rim, a little more forceful than on a disc brake, but nonetheless generally predictable.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Don't be so sure of that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use Shimano 7800 levers with 6800 calipers (essentially same as 9000 calipers), and they work just fine, awesome in fact, work better than with the old 7800 calipers in fact! I didn't even notice there was any mushiness until I saw this video. And I use this with carbon wheels, no less. They work fine.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Pirx said:


> Ah, I didn't know they changed the pull ratio so significantly. Well, alright, I'll take back what I said on this.


I don't know how much the pull ratio has changed from 7800 series to 9000 series. But, I use 7800 levers with 6800 calipers (same as 9000), and use it on carbon wheels no less, and the result is braking is even better (for me) then using 7800 levers with 7800 calipers.

But I just checked on the mushiness. Hmm there is a slight more mushiness when using 7800 levers w/ 6800 calipers compared to using 6800 levers w/ 6800 calipers. So yes I can see the point made in the video now that I have checked. But, honestly, I never notice the mushiness, and braking is effectively great! even on carbon wheels, using 2 finger braking.


----------



## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> That could be because you're not too bright. It's becoming clear that you have neither applicable knowledge of physics nor actual experience with disc brakes.


You know, I'm starting to like you. You're genuinely funny, even though you may have no intention to be.

But, let's see: So, in your world, if someone makes a claim regarding the physics of some phenomenon, all you need to do is say "Try it, you'll see, trust me"? 
In your world, there's no need to provide a precise description of either the setup or the outcome of an experiment you're suggesting, right? 
It's all fuzzy crap along the lines of "works much better", with not even an attempt to define a metric, is that so? 

Let me make a really wild guess, you've never done nor even understood any science or engineering in your entire life, right? That stuff is all "academic" to you anyway, isn't it? 
Tell me, how do you think that "science stuff" works? How do you think it is that people like myself are giving you the computer to spew your garbage from, the car that get's your sorry arse from A to B, or that precise, reliable component group you have on your bike?

Finally, tell me, do you really enjoy looking as silly as you do by now? I wonder, have you even noticed that there's nobody, but absolutely nobody in here who takes your BSing seriously? That there's not a single person in this thread who believes you know jack-**** about any of the relevant physics or engineering of anything at all? That everybody can see through your lame little rhetorical tricks?



SwiftSolo said:


> Anyway, I now feel ashamed for aggravating your insecurity and I want to apologize. Be assured that I recognize that you're Special and that further displays of your brilliance on this subject will remain unchallenged/ignored by me.


Awwhh, Swiftey, don't do that to me! I'll be in tears! Ignored by a great mind such as yours? Please, pretty, pretty please, have mercy! I'll be devastated.

On the other hand, you have made such promises before, so there's hope for me. No really, on second thought, I think I'll be just fine.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> "Would you like to point out what exactly in my post would qualify as immature? Don't worry, it's just a rhetorical question."
> 
> The answer will come to you should you become an adult.
> 
> ...


Current score: one point for SwiftSolo, 0 points for Pirx!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Current score: one point for SwiftSolo, 0 points for Pirx!


this may be the first and only post I've seen you limit your usage of smiley icons to just 1! You ok buddy??!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> this may be the first and only post I've seen you limit your usage of smiley icons to just 1! You ok buddy??!


I'm trying to contain myself!  :yesnod: :ihih:


----------



## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Fredrico said:


> Current score: one point for SwiftSolo, 0 points for Pirx!


Dang, Fredrico, what are you doing? You're putting the lie to my statement above! So disappointing. 

O.k., Swiftey, here goes: There is indeed one person in this forum who's apparently capable of taking your BSing seriously. I do apologize for the mis-statement in my post above. Truly sorry.


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## J.R. (Sep 14, 2009)

Pirx said:


> Dang, Fredrico, what are you doing? You're putting the lie to my statement above! So disappointing.
> 
> O.k., Swiftey, here goes: There is indeed one person in this forum who's apparently capable of taking your BSing seriously. I do apologize for the mis-statement in my post above. Truly sorry.


Put me down as number 2. I sped through this thread at fairly high speed (without using the breaks ) so it is possible I may have missed something but it was quite clear to me that Pirx is somewhat lost when it comes to talking about brakes.

hth


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

J.R. said:


> it was quite clear to me that Pirx is somewhat lost when it comes to talking about brakes.


Really? What was it that made this clear to you? Honest question, I'm genuinely interested. I won't yell at you, promise... :aureola:


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## J.R. (Sep 14, 2009)

Pirx said:


> Really? What was it that made this clear to you? Honest question, I'm genuinely interested. I won't yell at you, promise... :aureola:


the clues are in what you posted, and in what you didn't post...

and go ahead, sometimes yelling is the most effective way to communicate.  I have neither the desire or the time to do battle on the interwebs. I need to go play around with my brakes to figure out how they work.

Here's a couple cookies for you. (cookie)(cookie)(cookie)


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

this thread is starting to get traction!


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

and it's well modulated too.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm hearing some squealing though.....


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Pirx said:


> Dang, Fredrico, what are you doing? You're putting the lie to my statement above! So disappointing.
> 
> O.k., Swiftey, here goes: There is indeed one person in this forum who's apparently capable of taking your BSing seriously. I do apologize for the mis-statement in my post above. Truly sorry.


I take it back! 

Just read your post in e mail, can't find it, where you quite accurately said modulation is more finely accomplished with the larger hoop, requiring much less mechanical strength to modulate braking force. A little gremlin in my computer prevented me from posting this an hour ago! Please accept my heart felt apologies. :ihih:

Swifty does like his disc brakes, though, and he rides the Italian mountains. So we gotta give him some cred in this debate.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

J.R. said:


> the clues are in what you posted, and in what you didn't post...
> 
> and go ahead, sometimes yelling is the most effective way to communicate.  I have neither the desire or the time to do battle on the interwebs.


I wasn't interested nor expecting any kind of battle out of my question myself. Like I said, I was just curious as to what may have given you the impression you had. I understand you don't want to be specific, and that's perfectly fine. I need to go spend more time on the trainer from here on out myself. Don't need no stinkin' brakes for that... 



Fredrico said:


> Swifty does like his disc brakes, though, and he rides the Italian mountains. So we gotta give him some cred in this debate.


Well, I have no doubt he uses them, but that doesn't mean he has any clue as to how they work. Many people know (kind of) how to use computers, yet have no clue as to how either the hard- or software really work.

Now, riding the Italian mountains, that I truly envy him for. It's on my bucket list, but I just couldn't squeeze in the time those last couple of years. However, now the kids are out of the house, and things are changing, so I may meet him someday soon. I'm sure we'd get along great.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> this thread is starting to get traction!





SPlKE said:


> and it's well modulated too.





factory feel said:


> I'm hearing some squealing though.....


We don't need no stinkin traction....................we drift our corners with well modulated brakes. If we get too close to anything, we bite it off and ask for seconds.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

I'm really wondering if these advantages in power and modulation with disk brakes is just the difference between hydro vs. mechanical. If someone were to make hydro rim brakes would they still provide that same "feel" and power of hydro disk brakes?

There is so much stuff between the brake lever and caliper for mechanical brakes. Every time you pull the lever you need to squeeze against the spring in the caliper and feel the small amount of friction in the cable. Only after you squeeze through that mechanical resistance is when you actually apply braking pressure. With hydraulic there is a direct and frictionless connection between brake lever and brake caliper. Along with the power advantage of using hydraulics.

My first mountain bike had mechanical disks. They didn't feel or perform drastically different from my rim caliper brakes now.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fajita Dave said:


> I'm really wondering if these advantages in power and modulation with disk brakes is just the difference between hydro vs. mechanical. If someone were to make hydro rim brakes would they still provide that same "feel" and power of hydro disk brakes?]


Sram's had hydro rim brakes for years.
SRAM Red 22 Hydraulic Rim groupset - First ride review - BikeRadar
https://www.sram.com/sram/road/products/sram-force-22-shiftershydraulic-rim


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Dave, you'd still be missing the scrubbers (holes that discharge debris and water) and it's questionable that the rims would take the kind of pressure needed. Also, Someone *has* made hydro rim brakes (I think Sram) but they never seemed to gain any market share.

Seems like the loss of cable friction would allow the same power and same lever travel with less hand pressure than cables.

For years, cars had hydro drum brakes that worked well but they too are no longer considered state-of-the-art. In cars, the loss of popularity may be partially related to weight


Fajita Dave said:


> I'm really wondering if these advantages in power and modulation with disk brakes is just the difference between hydro vs. mechanical. If someone were to make hydro rim brakes would they still provide that same "feel" and power of hydro disk brakes?
> 
> There is so much stuff between the brake lever and caliper for mechanical brakes. Every time you pull the lever you need to squeeze against the spring in the caliper and feel the small amount of friction in the cable. Only after you squeeze through that mechanical resistance is when you actually apply braking pressure. With hydraulic there is a direct and frictionless connection between brake lever and brake caliper. Along with the power advantage of using hydraulics.
> 
> My first mountain bike had mechanical disks. They didn't feel or perform drastically different from my rim caliper brakes now.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Cable friction is a factor. I recall putting the 9000 series cables on my 105 equipped bike. The first time I hit the front brake hard I almost went over the bars. I don't see any likely explanation apart from much lower cable friction. That's the only component that was different.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

ziscwg said:


> We don't need no stinkin traction....................we drift our corners with well modulated brakes. If we get too close to anything, we bite it off and ask for seconds.


Remember when Campy said brakes are for slowing the bike, not for stopping? Truth!


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> Dave, you'd still be missing the scrubbers (holes that discharge debris and water) and it's questionable that the rims would take the kind of pressure needed.


There's no need for "scrubbers", and there are many examples of disk brakes that do not have holes. Of course, their purpose and function is different from what Swiftey imagines anyway, but let's not go into that.

As for the "kind of pressure needed", it should be obvious that the pressure needed is exactly the same as for a regular cable-actuated rim brake.



SwiftSolo said:


> Seems like the loss of cable friction would allow the same power and same lever travel with less hand pressure than cables.


Cable friction has nothing to do with either "power" (presumably he meant to say something like "braking force") or lever travel.

Lever travel is mandated by a combination of required pad clearance (much higher for rim brakes than disks) and desired braking and lever forces. 

The physics of this is about as simple as it gets: Lever force times lever travel equals pad force times pad travel. 

Disks need much higher braking forces for the same braking moment (roughly five times the brake force of a rim brake). Since the brake force is given as pad force divided by friction coefficient of the pad/disk or pad/rim combo, the required pad forces for given brake forces may be slightly different between disk and rim brakes, but my guess is that the difference is not large (couldn't find any numbers for rim brakes).

As far as "modulation" is concerned, an important parameter is the stiffness of the force transmission system as defined in a previous post of mine. My guess is that hydraulic systems are stiffer (and I have suggested a simple experiment to check), and that this characteristic is part of the reason for the subjective feeling of "better modulation/control" of hydraulic brakes.

Other than that, if you are interested in designing a brake system that allows the best modulation, you would have to go into ergonomics, and ask over what range of hand forces people typically feel they have the best control available. It is obvious that there is some intermediate range of forces where this will be the case: We "lose control" both for extremely small and extremely large required forces.



mfdemicco said:


> Remember when Campy said brakes are for slowing the bike, not for stopping? Truth!


Yep, that's absolutely true. They used to have some brakes (their infamous Deltas) that clearly followed that philosophy...


----------



## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

Enve recalls carbon road disc forks | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Disc brake fans not so fast. Enve just issued recall on front forks. Mount can break.

OGDEN, Utah (BRAIN) — Enve is recalling some 600 of its carbon fiber road disc forks because the left leg of the fork can crack above the disc brake mount. So far Enve has received five reports of the left leg of the fork cracking with no reported injuries.
The recall affects Enve’s Carbon Fiber Road Fork 2.0 Disc 1.25-inch taper models. The forks have serial numbers beginning with: VCT1406, VCT1410, VCT1411, VCT1501, VCT1502, VCT1503, VCT1505, VCT1506, VCT1507, VCT1508, VCT1509 and VCT1510. The serial number is located on the black steerer tube.
Enve is advising consumers to contact the company for a full refund or replacement of the fork and headset.
The forks, which were manufactured in Vietnam, were sold at authorized Enve dealers nationwide and online from June 2014 through December 2015 for about $540 each.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Cable friction is a factor. I recall putting the 9000 series cables on my 105 equipped bike. The first time I hit the front brake hard I almost went over the bars. I don't see any likely explanation apart from much lower cable friction. That's the only component that was different.


The issue with using different cables is more complicated than just friction. To first order, and taking into account that you're on a bicycle rolling over a real road surface that has finite roughness and thus causes vibration, the ratio of the steady state brake force at the pads versus the lever force is pretty much unaffected by cable friction. However, you will feel the friction during actuation, which can make a difference. You were used to the brake feeling a certain way during the process of squeezing the lever, and that has changed with the new cables, which may have caused your over-breaking.

Second, the stiffness of the force transmission also plays a role, and it's quite possible that this is different between different cable systems.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

pittcanna said:


> Enve recalls carbon road disc forks | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
> 
> Disc brake fans not so fast. Enve just issued recall on front forks. Mount can break.
> 
> ...


That would never happen with CRMO forks. :frown2: They've got superior modulus of elasticity. And steel forks are fast disappearing as available after-market options.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> That would never happen with CRMO forks. :frown2: They've got superior modulus of elasticity. And steel forks are fast disappearing as available after-market options.


Of course it could happen. Especially if designed or built wrong. CRMO isn't magic.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> Of course it could happen. Especially if designed or built wrong. CRMO isn't magic.


We're not talking about lowest grade cheap, badly brazed forks that become brittle from overheating the welds when manufactured. 

The break pictured is also probably from impact damage, not hard braking. A well brazed steel fork will never break at the welds/lugs. It will bend along the blades and can be quite easily bent back into alignment, with no loss of strength.

Can't say that about carbon. Buyer beware! :shocked:


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> We're not talking about lowest grade cheap, badly brazed forks that become brittle from overheating the welds when manufactured.
> 
> The break pictured is also probably from impact damage, not hard braking. * A well brazed steel fork will never break at the welds/lugs*. It will bend along the blades and can be quite easily bent back into alignment, with no loss of strength.


A well made carbon fork will never break either.


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## Chain (Dec 28, 2006)

tlg said:


> A well made carbon fork will never break either.


they just asplode if left in teh sun.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

enve forks are made in vietnam?

wow


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> enve forks are made in vietnam?
> 
> wow


And Colnagos are made in China! :shocked: Who ya gonna trust?


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

factory feel said:


> enve forks are made in vietnam?
> 
> wow


Niners has been making their frames in Vietnam since 2009 or thereabout, and Niners have some of the toughest frames AND forks in the business. To be fair, Niners doesn't care about catering to the weightweenies as much as Enve.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Pirx said:


> ...
> Other than that, if you are interested in designing a brake system that allows the best modulation, you would have to go into ergonomics, and ask over what range of hand forces people typically feel they have the best control available. It is obvious that there is some intermediate range of forces where this will be the case: We "lose control" both for extremely small and extremely large required forces.
> ...


I'd say a lot of people online when they use the term "modulation", they aren't quite sure what is involved in modulation. "Feeling" to one's hand is pretty damn important. What is a an optimal range for one person's hand may not be for another persone's hand. Watch basketball? People say shaq's huge and powerful hand is a disadvantage to him when it comes to shooting freethrows, because the ball in his hand feels like an orange, and he can't feel enough of its weight to get a good throw. Any surgeon or dentist about what it takes to have steady hands, you need to practice your hand at a certain range of motion, and your hands can't get too muscular.

Modulation is the result of the interaction of equipment and human touch. Want to modulate better? then practice more.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> Niners has been making their frames in Vietnam since 2009 or thereabout, and Niners have some of the toughest frames AND forks in the business. To be fair, Niners doesn't care about catering to the weightweenies as much as Enve.


The Niners I've seen looked bullet proof. They were always custom ordered by shop mechs, which said it all, basically. :thumbsup:


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Fredrico said:


> The Niners I've seen looked bullet proof. They were always custom ordered by shop mechs, which said it all, basically. :thumbsup:


not always...

Niner official - Jet 9 safety recall- Mtbr.com


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Been fun reading. I personally don't care what the pros use, TK will be using caliper brakes. To me discs are a solution to a problem I don't have. 
And if I were to guess, Pirx is a college professor probably with an engineering degree and Swifty is a sanitation engineer. 
I'm sure those big trucks have disc brakes that need adjusting regularly. Lots of first hand experience. Credit for that.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

tlg said:


> Sram's had hydro rim brakes for years.
> SRAM Red 22 Hydraulic Rim groupset - First ride review - BikeRadar
> https://www.sram.com/sram/road/products/sram-force-22-shiftershydraulic-rim


Looks like a nice option to me if you want easier braking. The advantages that Bike Radar mentioned sound a lot like the advantages people keep saying disk brakes have. Later braking with less effort and great modulation. If your rim brakes had more power thanks to hydraulics they should also stop better in wet conditions. No disk brakes needed.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

tlg said:


> A well made carbon fork will never break either.


Ditto for a well made dinner fork.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> And Colnagos are made in China! :shocked: Who ya gonna trust?


The Italians gave us many great things. There's Roman architecture, hand crafted, lugged steel frames, Ferraris, the cappuccino... But then there's Fiats and now this stuff.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

mfdemicco said:


> The Italians gave us many great things. There's Roman architecture, hand crafted, lugged steel frames, Ferraris, the cappuccino... But then there's Fiats and now this stuff.


Bikes made in China I don't have a problem with. This on the other hand has got to go.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> Want to modulate better? then practice more.



Precision is likely a better word to use than modulation. Reading about brakes on RBR makes it clear that only a few people ride in the high mountain on their road bikes and have no idea what road disc brakes are about.

Those who ride all spring and into the summer in snow melt (running across the road) that is mixed with sand know how unpredictable rim brakes are. In many instances it takes two or three revolutions to scrub the rims and pads. It often seems like you accelerate during this time (obviously only an illusion) and once scrubbed the same level of brake pressure would take you to lock up except for reflexes and experience. Discs are scrubbed clean in less that 1/8th of a revolution and that is important

Those whose brakes work immediately and identically every time will always be among the fastest descenders--all else being equal. The human mind/survival instinct insists that unpredictability is accounted and adjusted for. Certainty of operation will always be faster.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> not always...
> 
> Niner official - Jet 9 safety recall- Mtbr.com


Who woulda known? They did take comprehensive corrective action, didn't they?

Too much heat welding the chain stay-BB joins? All that lateral flex will surely expose welding errors. I've seen seat tubes and chain stays break at the BB junctions more than anyplace else.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Precision is likely a better word to use than modulation. Reading about brakes on RBR makes it clear that only a few people ride in the high mountain on their road bikes and have no idea what road disc brakes are about.
> 
> Those who ride all spring and into the summer in snow melt (running across the road) that is mixed with sand know how unpredictable rim brakes are. In many instances it takes two or three revolutions to scrub the rims and pads. It often seems like you accelerate during this time (obviously only an illusion) and once scrubbed the same level of brake pressure would take you to lock up except for reflexes and experience. Discs are scrubbed clean in less that 1/8th of a revolution and that is important
> 
> Those whose brakes work immediately and identically every time will always be among the fastest descenders--all else being equal. The human mind/survival instinct insists that unpredictability is accounted and adjusted for. Certainty of operation will always be faster.


I ride in the mountains of Socal a lot, eg, Glendora, San Gabriel, the Angeles Forests, Santa Monica, Santa Barbara, Palomar, Wilson, Big Bear areas. Ridden in many places in Norcal too like Sierra, Mammoth, various Bay Area places. I use aluminum wheels and brakes are either DA 9000 or 6800 calipers, awesome. I've used 7900 and 7800 calipers too, they're not as refined and powerful at the 6800/9000 ones though, but I use them in the same mountains fine too. But I ride in the dry. Don't ride wet mountains, no desire to ride wet mountains. I've on occasion ridden in light snow condition, and the scariest thing to me riding in the wet is not the braking but the sudden slide out of the front or rear end without warning. Braking has never ever been an issue with me, lost of traction is.

The one thing I will credit for disc is if guys use them in the wet or with carbon clincher wheels. I don't ride in the wet, and I don't ride carbon clinchers. The one set of carbon wheels I have is tubular.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Our mountains generate their own weather. It can be sunny and warm and change to rain and thunder quickly.

Snow melt usually starts in March and lasts into July. It is worse than rain because the grit from sanding get's mixed in during winter plowing.

I come down and ride in the Santa Barbera, Santa Inez area 10 days during the last two weeks of every winter month and have been for years. It can rain there as well (especially this year). 

Also, racing descents in the rain and variable conditions is part of the sport.
View attachment 312583




aclinjury said:


> I ride in the mountains of Socal a lot, eg, Glendora, San Gabriel, the Angeles Forests, Santa Monica, Santa Barbara, Palomar, Wilson, Big Bear areas. Ridden in many places in Norcal too like Sierra, Mammoth, various Bay Area places. I use aluminum wheels and brakes are either DA 9000 or 6800 calipers, awesome. I've used 7900 and 7800 calipers too, they're not as refined and powerful at the 6800/9000 ones though, but I use them in the same mountains fine too. But I ride in the dry. Don't ride wet mountains, no desire to ride wet mountains. I've on occasion ridden in light snow condition, and the scariest thing to me riding in the wet is not the braking but the sudden slide out of the front or rear end without warning. Braking has never ever been an issue with me, lost of traction is.
> 
> The one thing I will credit for disc is if guys use them in the wet or with carbon clincher wheels. I don't ride in the wet, and I don't ride carbon clinchers. The one set of carbon wheels I have is tubular.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Pirx said:


> There's no need for "scrubbers", and there are many examples of disk brakes that do not have holes. Of course, their purpose and function is different from what Swiftey imagines anyway, but let's not go into that.
> 
> As for the "kind of pressure needed", it should be obvious that the pressure needed is exactly the same as for a regular cable-actuated rim brake.
> 
> ...


Yep, the Delta's were works of art, but that was about it.

The old Super Record side pull calipers got a bad reputation, too, but I've never had any issues with them. They worked very well descending Mt. Wilson. They were difficult to squeeze continuously riding down the straight aways. The hands would tire. So I let momentum and gravity do its thing, and topped out at 48 mph, anyway. I could brake hard just before the corners, no fade, very steady and solid. No question they required more hand force on the levers, but they slowed the bike down very nicely at car speeds. At low speeds, they still required deliberate hand pressure to stop, didn't catch or lock up the wheel. You never want to do that if you like your tires. :nono:

The calipers had very stiff return springs. They were the preferred side pull road brake for as long as they were made.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Precision is likely a better word to use than modulation. Reading about brakes on RBR makes it clear that only a few people ride in the high mountain on their road bikes and have no idea what road disc brakes are about.
> 
> Those who ride all spring and into the summer in snow melt (running across the road) that is mixed with sand know how unpredictable rim brakes are. In many instances it takes two or three revolutions to scrub the rims and pads. It often seems like you accelerate during this time (obviously only an illusion) and once scrubbed the same level of brake pressure would take you to lock up except for reflexes and experience. Discs are scrubbed clean in less that 1/8th of a revolution and that is important
> 
> Those whose brakes work immediately and identically every time will always be among the fastest descenders--all else being equal. The human mind/survival instinct insists that unpredictability is accounted and adjusted for. Certainty of operation will always be faster.


Now this is some funny stuff. Yep, there's no snow-melt or sand in Colorado and I always brake exactly the same no matter what the objective result is.  I don't think it's EVER taken "two or three revolutions" for my brakes to take hold after riding through snowmelt-wet patches of road. Those who have experience and skill at descending will always be among the fastest descenders - regardless of what equipment they use. If you want to like discs, fine, but quit coming up with bogus scenarios trying to convince many of us that we should all like discs or that they have objective advantages (rather than drawbacks) in most situations that most cyclists ride in.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You keep clinging to your fantasies. I have no interest in making everybody convert to discs. My only interest in this subject is in keeping Luddites from putting out BS about new technology and confusing those looking for honest advice.

That being said, claiming that your rim brakes work the same whether your rims are contaminated or dry is going to be a hard sell to anyone not on meth. See, the problem is that most folks here on RBR actually ride bikes and have experience on rim brakes. I don't think you'll find many who claim they act virtually the same whether wet or dry.

Further, no amount of skill will completely compensate for unpredictable brake behavior. Survival will always require that we anticipate the probabilities and adjust. Consider that going slow is only one way to make that adjustment. Eliminating variables by creating consistency in the behavior of our equipment is the other.




OldChipper said:


> Now this is some funny stuff. Yep, there's no snow-melt or sand in Colorado and I always brake exactly the same no matter what the objective result is.  I don't think it's EVER taken "two or three revolutions" for my brakes to take hold after riding through snowmelt-wet patches of road. Those who have experience and skill at descending will always be among the fastest descenders - regardless of what equipment they use. If you want to like discs, fine, but quit coming up with bogus scenarios trying to convince many of us that we should all like discs or that they have objective advantages (rather than drawbacks) in most situations that most cyclists ride in.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Did somebody say Mt. Wilson?


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

SwiftSolo said:


> Those who ride all spring and into the summer in snow melt (running across the road) that is mixed with sand know how unpredictable rim brakes are. In many instances it takes two or three revolutions to scrub the rims and pads. It often seems like you accelerate during this time (obviously only an illusion) and once scrubbed the same level of brake pressure would take you to lock up except for reflexes and experience. Discs are scrubbed clean in less that 1/8th of a revolution and that is important.


Science question of thr day. For every one full rotation the wheel makes; how many rotations does the brake rotor make? Bonus question - How can a brake rotor be fully cleaned without making at least one full rotation?

Joking aside! I recently rode in 20 degree Fehrenheit temps with snow on the road along with snow melt from sun exposure. I had no issues stopping suddenly for a family of deer in this national park where I was riding with rim brakes. The section of road was downhill but dry so traction was good. It definitely took more effort to squeeze the brakes for a second or so from 35mph but may have only effected my stopping distance by around 5 or 10ft. One observation was that the rear brakes were weak for far longer than the front but that is irrelivant because the front is what got me stopped anyway. The front rim doesn't gather anywhere near as much water and road debris as the rear so braking isn't heavily effected.

Since I've ridden motocross all my life and mountain bikes for quite a few years you realize it doesn't matter how much pressure you need to apply to the lever (as long as you can apply enough pressure). The amount of effort you put into braking is dependent on the traction available which is independent of the braking system itself. In muddy conditions on the mountain bike I have had situations where it took quite a while for the disk to clear and restore braking just like rim brakes.

Edit: Disk brakes have their place and I don't see anything wrong with having them on road bikes. I just don't want them to be the only option. I'm sure in wet conditions on a twisty downhill there might be a few tenths of a second to gain for a pro rider. However for the average or even great rider cornering skill is going to trump any small advantage in braking.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> Did somebody say Mt. Wilson?


Hey, its a mountain! We're talking about descending a mountain, right? Just relating my hard experience with caliper brakes successfully whizzing down a mountain at 45 mph. It coulda been any mountain!  Really nothing that tall here in the Northeast megalopolis, is there?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

mfdemicco said:


> Remember when Campy said brakes are for slowing the bike, not for stopping? Truth!


You don't want to lock up the wheels, do you? Tullio was right on! That's why he put on those stiff return springs, as I said.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Fajita Dave said:


> Science question of thr day. For every one full rotation the wheel makes; how many rotations does the brake rotor make? Bonus question - How can a brake rotor be fully cleaned without making at least one full rotation?
> 
> Joking aside! I recently rode in 20 degree Fehrenheit temps with snow on the road along with snow melt from sun exposure. I had no issues stopping suddenly for a family of deer in this national park where I was riding with rim brakes. The section of road was downhill but dry so traction was good. It definitely took more effort to squeeze the brakes for a second or so from 35mph but may have only effected my stopping distance by around 5 or 10ft. One observation was that the rear brakes were weak for far longer than the front but that is irrelivant because the front is what got me stopped anyway. The front rim doesn't gather anywhere near as much water and road debris as the rear so braking isn't heavily effected.
> 
> ...


That's right.

The rear brake never works quite as good as the front, because when braking, weight falls forward onto the front wheel, unloading the rear wheel, lifting it off the ground if rider's not careful! With the loss of traction, very easy to lock up the rear wheel and start skidding, not to mention losing lots of rubber!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fajita Dave said:


> Science question of thr day. For every one full rotation the wheel makes; how many rotations does the brake rotor make? Bonus question - How can a brake rotor be fully cleaned without making at least one full rotation?


Dave, this question has been answered repeatedly on this thread. 

How many scrubber holes does your rim brake pad encounter in which they discharge contaminants and water? A 140mm disc has 24 per revolution. 

Finally, the disc pads experience 6 or more times the pressure of the rim pads as they pass over these scrubber holes.

I almost forgot: So I can put you down as another person who claims your rim brakes work just as well and the same whether the rims are wet with contaminated water or dry?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> Dave, this question has been answered repeatedly on this thread.
> 
> How many scrubber holes does your rim brake pad encounter in which they discharge contaminants and water? A 140mm disc has 24 per revolution.
> 
> ...


Good point on the scrubbers. Also, the disc is up off the road. it doesn't pick up dust and oil from the road. Water wipes off instantly.

It is true, however, that standard brake pads on aluminum rims still stop the wheel even when wet. How many times have riders really had to lightly brake a whole wheel revolution before trying to stop? If that is the case, they should clean their rims and brake pads.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

SwiftSolo said:


> Dave, this question has been answered repeatedly on this thread.
> 
> How many scrubber holes does your rim brake pad encounter in which they discharge contaminants and water? A 140mm disc has 24 per revolution.
> 
> ...


I did say disk brakes have a small advantage at the initial use of the brakes when wet. This probably has more to do with the materials they're made of more than anything. Holes in bicycle brake disks don't do anything to clear water or dirt. The holes in our brake rotors somewhat help with cooling but are mostly marketing to look good. The leading edge of the brake pad clears water and dirt whether it's disk or rim. The amount of pressure is also irrelevant; as long as the brake pad is pressed up tight against the rotor/rim dirt and water can't get between brake pad and braking surface. 

The only time I've had an issue with poor braking on my road bike is extreme wet conditions. Like riding through a long deep puddle that saturates the rims on top of wet brake pads from heavy rain. For the other 99.9% of your riding time you'll have to deal with the unnecessary details of disk brakes like brake bleeds, more frequent pad changes and dealing with contaminated brake pads. I don't mind these details on my mountain bikes but I don't want it on my road bike. It's simply not something I or most other road riders need.

I've ridden nearly 10,000 miles off-road with disk brakes and so far 800 miles on road with rim brakes. I have had worse hydraulic disk brakes than the rim brakes on my road bike. Even though I'm a noob to road riding I have already ridden through rain, on snow/ice and have had some situations that required hard braking in poor conditions. I never felt like the rim brakes were lacking performance or modulation.

With rim brakes there does seem to be a much larger variety of designs and braking materials. I imagine some of them suck at performing in wet conditions (like carbon rims). My brakes don't seem to have this problem.

Edit: Here is a link to the purpose of holes in brake disks.
TECHNOLOGY KNOW HOW: WHY HOLES(CROSS ) ARE PROVIDED IN BIKE'S DISC BRAKES


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Not much point in discussing anything with the "vast corporate conspiracy" folks. Everything since the penny farthing was a marketing ploy to defraud the ignorant.

Model A fords had little issue with their brakes. Somehow, that standard of performance has been replaced--likely a marketing conspiracy! I too have never had trouble stopping in something over 60,000 miles of road riding on rim brakes. So if "not having trouble stopping" is your criteria for brakes, you should stick with rim brakes.

As far as what is faster on hair pinned steep descents, watch stage 14 of this years Giro and let's discuss this issue again afterwards. Riders will have the option, so it may be hard to find any rim brakes but I certainly hope that those who've spoken against their use will stick to their guns.

To be sure, Luddites will stick to the claim that it wasn't the brakes that made the difference on the descents--even if faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. On the other hand, I may be having to eat crow. It may be that nearly all of us who've tried hydro road hydiscs are simply hallucinating (or are being paid by the "vast corporate conspiracy").


Fajita Dave said:


> I did say disk brakes have a small advantage at the initial use of the brakes when wet. This probably has more to do with the materials they're made of more than anything. Holes in bicycle brake disks don't do anything to clear water or dirt. The holes in our brake rotors somewhat help with cooling but are mostly marketing to look good. The leading edge of the brake pad clears water and dirt whether it's disk or rim. The amount of pressure is also irrelevant; as long as the brake pad is pressed up tight against the rotor/rim dirt and water can't get between brake pad and braking surface.
> 
> The only time I've had an issue with poor braking on my road bike is extreme wet conditions. Like riding through a long deep puddle that saturates the rims on top of wet brake pads from heavy rain. For the other 99.9% of your riding time you'll have to deal with the unnecessary details of disk brakes like brake bleeds, more frequent pad changes and dealing with contaminated brake pads. I don't mind these details on my mountain bikes but I don't want it on my road bike. It's simply not something I or most other road riders need.
> 
> ...


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I wonder if disc pads would last longer if there weren't holes in the rotor, that act like a cheese grater. Most cars don't have holes in the rotors. Therefore they can't be that important. They do make the rotors lighter though.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Fredrico, are you going to the NAHBS?


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

mfdemicco said:


> Fredrico, are you going to the NAHBS?


I went to NAHBS yesterday. Spent all day there. Great show. Mavic was there. I asked them how they are supporting wheel changes with disc brakes. He said (hard do for me to believe) that they align the brake caliper as a part of a wheel change. He said most teams are going for bike changes instead of wheel changes on bikes with disc brakes. Under these circumstances, I can't see disc brakes taking over the pro peloton. Too much risk of losing too much time due to a flat change.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

mfdemicco said:


> I went to NAHBS yesterday. Spent all day there. Great show. Mavic was there. I asked them how they are supporting wheel changes with disc brakes. He said (hard do for me to believe) that they align the brake caliper as a part of a wheel change. He said most teams are going for bike changes instead of wheel changes on bikes with disc brakes. Under these circumstances, I can't see disc brakes taking over the pro peloton. Too much risk of losing too much time due to a flat change.


Very interesting! The teams are prepared for bike changes, but I've always wondered how they get the saddle heights right, and how the rider adjusts to the millimeter differences in fit, all the while going flat out. That would have destroyed me back in the day.

Swifty can still keep his discs, though. He's not racing, officially, anyway.  

NAHBS is out in Sacramento, CA. If it were here in NVA, I'd sure check it out. A group dedicated to the old stuff had a meet in Leesburg, VA, a couple of years ago. I missed that one too. Next time!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

get a flat, change bikes???

oh my


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> I went to NAHBS yesterday. Spent all day there. Great show. Mavic was there. I asked them how they are supporting wheel changes with disc brakes. He said (hard do for me to believe) that they align the brake caliper as a part of a wheel change. He said most teams are going for bike changes instead of wheel changes on bikes with disc brakes. Under these circumstances, I can't see disc brakes taking over the pro peloton. Too much risk of losing too much time due to a flat change.


QED. For those of you unfamiliar with formal logic, that means "told you so."


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

mfdemicco said:


> I went to NAHBS yesterday. Spent all day there. Great show. Mavic was there. I asked them how they are supporting wheel changes with disc brakes. He said (hard do for me to believe) that they align the brake caliper as a part of a wheel change. He said most teams are going for bike changes instead of wheel changes on bikes with disc brakes. Under these circumstances, I can't see disc brakes taking over the pro peloton. Too much risk of losing too much time due to a flat change.


Back in 1913 Henry Ford used interchangeable parts to build cars.

Over 100 years later we should be able to standardize rotor and caliper position relative to the axle ends so fast wheel changes are possible.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Back in 1913 Henry Ford used interchangeable parts to build cars.
> 
> Over 100 years later we should be able to standardize rotor and caliper position relative to the axles so fast wheel changes are possible.


the tolerances between the pads is the problem.

nearly no room for error.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The obvious outcome of this will be to force the tire manufacturers to use existing technology to make tires that experience fewer flats. They are aware that Aramid (Kevlar) is the answer but the cost of dealing with the stuff will add 25% to the cost of bike tires. It has been and is being used by some very successfully--mostly on tubeless and some on tubulars. Car tires switched over a couple of decades ago.

The problem with any new technology is that, today, there are as many rabid Luddites spreading misinformation as there are folks who actually use the products and honestly report their findings. Pro racing tends to expose these folks for what they are (in spite of their claims that pro racers use any inferior crap that sponsors ask them to). 

Look for bike tires that are less prone to flats and weigh less in the near future.


mfdemicco said:


> I went to NAHBS yesterday. Spent all day there. Great show. Mavic was there. I asked them how they are supporting wheel changes with disc brakes. He said (hard do for me to believe) that they align the brake caliper as a part of a wheel change. He said most teams are going for bike changes instead of wheel changes on bikes with disc brakes. Under these circumstances, I can't see disc brakes taking over the pro peloton. Too much risk of losing too much time due to a flat change.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> The obvious outcome of this will be to force the tire manufacturers to use existing technology to make tires that experience fewer flats. They are aware that Aramid (Kevlar) is the answer but the cost of dealing with the stuff will add 25% to the cost of bike tires. It has been and is being used by some very successfully--mostly on tubeless and some on tubulars. Car tires switched over a couple of decades ago.
> 
> The problem with any new technology is that, today, there are as many rabid Luddites spreading misinformation as there are folks who actually use the products and honestly report their findings. Pro racing tends to expose these folks for what they are (in spite of their claims that pro racers use any inferior crap that sponsors ask them to).
> 
> Look for bike tires that are less prone to flats and weigh less in the near future.


The luddite theory is pushed to new heights, if I understand this correctly.
Now even the tire manufacturers are part of the luddite conspiration. Dics brakes will "force" them to make better, lighter tires.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

HFroller said:


> The luddite theory is pushed to new heights, if I understand this correctly.


Well, other than various modifications of some more or less original _ad hominems_, this poster doesn't seem to have much in the way of rational argument to support his point of view.

I will say that, as a matter of fact, rim brakes are indeed a beautifully elegant solution to the problem of decelerating road bikes. I'll bet someone would have invented and marketed these as a great innovation had we started out with hub-based brakes. They represent an extremely low maintenance, simple, reliable and lightweight technology. Perfect for road racing, really. For mountain biking, and to some degree CX, the parameters are completely different, so disk brakes have their place for these usage cases. For road racing, nothing beats a good rim brake.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

No, you don't understand correctly.

Tire manufacturers make what sells. What sells is controlled by cost, effectiveness, durability, and market perception of overall quality. 

RBR is an example of a Forum that is supposed to inform folks looking for accurate reviews of products. What it has become is place for those with an anti-business indoctrination to talk out of their asses about products they've mostly never tried while pretending to be experts.


HFroller said:


> The luddite theory is pushed to new heights, if I understand this correctly.
> Now even the tire manufacturers are part of the luddite conspiration. Dics brakes will "force" them to make better, lighter tires.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> those with an anti-business indoctrination


Yep, another one of those straw men this poster likes to bash. 
That one's getting old, too.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I no sooner hit the "reply" button and this perfect example pops up to make my case.


Pirx said:


> Well, other than various modifications of some more or less original _ad hominems_, this poster doesn't seem to have much in the way of rational argument to support his point of view.
> 
> I will say that, as a matter of fact, rim brakes are indeed a beautifully elegant solution to the problem of decelerating road bikes. I'll bet someone would have invented and marketed these as a great innovation had we started out with hub-based brakes. They represent an extremely low maintenance, simple, reliable and lightweight technology. Perfect for road racing, really. For mountain biking, and to some degree CX, the parameters are completely different, so disk brakes have their place for these usage cases. For road racing, nothing beats a good rim brake.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> The obvious outcome of this will be to force the tire manufacturers to use existing technology to make tires that experience fewer flats. They are aware that Aramid (Kevlar) is the answer but the cost of dealing with the stuff will add 25% to the cost of bike tires.


Continental has been using Vectran for years. 

Compared to Kevlar
- It's 8-14X more flexible for lower rolling resistance
- It's more cut-resistant
- It costs more


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Pirx said:


> Well, other than various modifications of some more or less original _ad hominems_, this poster doesn't seem to have much in the way of rational argument to support his point of view.
> 
> I will say that, as a matter of fact, rim brakes are indeed a beautifully elegant solution to the problem of decelerating road bikes. I'll bet someone would have invented and marketed these as a great innovation had we started out with hub-based brakes. They represent an extremely low maintenance, simple, reliable and lightweight technology. Perfect for road racing, really. For mountain biking, and to some degree CX, the parameters are completely different, so disk brakes have their place for these usage cases. For road racing, nothing beats a good rim brake.


"Beautifully elegant solution," well put! I liken rim brakes to 32 spoked wheels, one inch diameter steel alloy frames, true quick release wheels, and friction shifting!  

The bicycle itself is a truly elegant solution for getting around town as well as a machine that will train the heart without beating up the body. Since the 60s, really, 55 years ago, road bike designs haven't changed much at all. With each "improvement" there have always been tradeoffs, which lead to other "improvements," on and on, with yet more tradeoffs.

Sorry, but I've found over 40 years of riding, bikes are a lot like footwear. Technology keeps changing, mainly market driven, but LL Bean still sells lots of shoes that are the same as the ones they sold 80 years ago. There's also an enduring niche market for steel bikes; and every once in a while a reaction to progress for the sake of progress, lately symptomized by the popularity of single speed bikes among urban "hipsters."

There's room for everyone. Why give up rim brakes when the alternative has tradeoffs that render them a PITA? When a disc brake comes out I can adjust easily on the fly, I'll consider changing over to discs. Until then, sorry marketers, I'll stay with rim brakes. I don't ride cyclocross or off road.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

So, let's take a look at what makes you an expert on road disc brakes.

First, you've never used them--an import criteria of the Luddite religion.

Second, you live and ride in an area where the biggest descent you ride is from the top of the pitchers mound on the high school baseball diamond--a benefit of living in fly-over country. Dragging your Keds on the ground is more than enough to deal with your braking needs.

And finally, you've demonstrated your inability to put what you learned in your junior high school physics class to use in any practical way. 

You and the other members of your congregation are what makes RBR opinions useless to anyone looking for educated input on products.



Pirx said:


> Yep, another one of those straw men this poster likes to bash. .
> That one's getting old, too.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> I no sooner hit the "reply" button and this perfect example pops up to make my case.


Hey, you said you were going to put me in your ignore list! You promised!


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> So, let's take a look at what makes you an expert on road disc brakes.
> 
> First, you've never used them--an import criteria of the Luddite religion.


Hmm, now here's a fascinating argument!

So, let's say I am an expert in the aerodynamic design of jet fighters (you know, just for the sake of argument, ...). Alas, I am not a fighter pilot, and have never flown one of these. So, by the above argument, and by virtue of me never having piloted a jet fighter, not only is it impossible for me to be an expert in my field (mind you, I am saying things like "my field" just for the sake of the argument... :aureola, but I must also be a "luddite". If I follow this poster's line of argument, we should only ever let fighter pilots design jet fighters, I assume. Those engineers? What the hell do they know?

Well, what can I say, I always admire rigorous, rational thought when I see it. 

P.S.: By the way:



SwiftSolo said:


> And finally, you've demonstrated your inability to put what you learned in your junior high school physics class to use in any practical way.


Feel free to keep trying to get a reaction out of me with infantile nonsense like the above. Believe it or not, I have neither a need nor any desire to impress somebody residing at your intellectual level. You, on the other hand, look quite foolish every time you do this. But, like I said, keep going if it helps you overcome your insecurities as you so nicely put it the other day.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Is it classics season yet?

Are they running the discs yet?

Was it the classics we were waiting for?

I want to see some carnage!

:mad5:


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> First, you've never used them


why do you keep saying no one's ever used them?

how do you know?

I've used lots of disc braked bicycles and still do!

Get it now?

I DON'T want them on my road bike though!


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> RBR is an example of a Forum that is supposed to inform folks looking for accurate reviews of products. What it has become is place for those with an anti-business indoctrination to talk out of their asses about products they've mostly never tried while pretending to be experts.


What what what? Did I miss that class in indoctrination camp? What I'm "anti" is technology whose MAIN purpose is ONLY to sell more crap that, by the way, is technically INFERIOR (by several OBJECTIVE measures) in most applications that most road cyclists encounter and which makes maintenance more problematic (and I have used hydro disc brakes now by the way). These are not opinions. These are facts that have been demonstrated by, among others, at least one company that wants to sell us road discs. The ONLY objective benefit that road discs have is braking in the wet. EVERYTHING else is opinion on "modulation." I was and am a huge fan and early adopter of indexed shifting, STI, disc wheels, GPS cyclecomputers, and plan to buy eTap for my TT bike as soon as it's available. Because ALL of these were measureable improvements over what went before. What I will NOT adopt is "new and better" technology that is actually worse - in many ways. At best, it's fraud. I will neither diss nor adopt ANYTHING *JUST* because it's new. If that makes me a luddite... OK. I think it makes me smart.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Back in 1913 Henry Ford used interchangeable parts to build cars.
> 
> Over 100 years later we should be able to standardize rotor and caliper position relative to the axle ends so fast wheel changes are possible.


Oh geez, here we go again. Yes. Cars and road bikes - exactly the same.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

OldChipper said:


> Oh geez, here we go again. Yes. Cars and road bikes - exactly the same.


Yep
both have wheels
both carry a driver

and the more one spends on either, the more pretentious they are..............

Oddd


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Back in 1913 Henry Ford used interchangeable parts to build cars.
> 
> Over 100 years later we should be able to standardize rotor and caliper position relative to the axle ends so fast wheel changes are possible.


Apparently the UCI standardized the rotor size and thruaxle. But, to make fast wheel changes possible, the rotor thickness, position from the centerline of the hub or axle nut, and width of the friction surface needs to be standardized as well.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> Is it classics season yet?
> 
> Are they running the discs yet?
> 
> ...


As far as I can see, few discs in Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne or Omloop Het Nieuwsblad, the start of the season in the Low Countries and France. The winners didn't have them, nor the rest of the podium (as far as I can see, I didn't watch B-K-B or Nieuwsblad on tv). 
But it's only the start of the season of course. Things might change with De Ronde or Paris-Roubaix. Or with the mountain stages in the Giro, Vuelta and TdF. 
But we shouldn't forget it's only the pro's. Even if they aren't riding discs ... what do they know? They're conservative luddites who'd rather ride calipers than win.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

First, you are not an expert in disc brake design. If you were a fighter designer and didn't listen to the input of the pilots who actually fly your designs, you'd quickly be known as an academic dumb ass and would be relegated to teaching at a second rate university.

Further, I don't recall ever suggesting that I am a disc brake designer. Unlike you, however, I am a road disc brake user.

In summary, you are neither a user, a designer, nor have you demonstrated any understanding of how and why they provide superior braking. In spite of having zero qualifications to provide intelligent input on road disc brakes, you pretend to be an expert on this and many other subjects/products that comes up for discussion.

If the objective of RBR is to provide objective opinions on products by educated users, ass-talking by ignorant non-users may not be fundamental to that end.

It's


Pirx said:


> Hmm, now here's a fascinating argument!
> 
> So, let's say I am an expert in the aerodynamic design of jet fighters (you know, just for the sake of argument, ...). Alas, I am not a fighter pilot, and have never flown one of these. So, by the above argument, and by virtue of me never having piloted a jet fighter, not only is it impossible for me to be an expert in my field (mind you, I am saying things like "my field" just for the sake of the argument... :aureola, but I must also be a "luddite". If I follow this poster's line of argument, we should only ever let fighter pilots design jet fighters, I assume. Those engineers? What the hell do they know?
> 
> ...


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I've gotten a crap load of flats on Aramid / Kevlar lined tires. The problem is weight and comfort vs protection.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

DrSmile said:


> I've gotten a crap load of flats on Aramid / Kevlar lined tires. The problem is weight and comfort vs protection.


The only truly flat proof tires are the airless ones.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

How is this debate still going on???????????

It's been settled. Red bikes with disk brakes are faster. :thumbsup:


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

ziscwg said:


> How is this debate still going on???????????
> 
> It's been settled. Red bikes with disk brakes are faster.  :thumbsup:


Faster than what? Faster than green bikes with disk brakes? Sure, agreed. BUT, red bikes with rim brakes are faster than red bikes with disk brakes.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

Pirx said:


> Faster than what? Faster than green bikes with disk brakes? Sure, agreed. BUT, red bikes with rim brakes are faster than red bikes with disk brakes.


I have a red bike with rim brakes does that make me fast?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

pittcanna said:


> I have a red bike with rim brakes does that make me fast?


I believe what he said is just the bike is faster.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

tlg said:


> I believe what he said is just the bike is faster.


Damn, can't fault me for trying.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Brakes, all brakes, modulate better on orange bikes.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SPlKE said:


> Brakes, all brakes, modulate better on orange bikes.


Hmm, now there's an interesting theory. But, perhaps that's because orange bikes are slow to begin with? I think with purple bikes, you don't even need brakes.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

ziscwg said:


> How is this debate still going on???????????
> 
> It's been settled. Red bikes with disk brakes are faster. :thumbsup:


What's the longest thread? Probably a helmet debate. We're up to 516 postings now and counting!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The notion that road bike tire technology is at its' zenith is nonsense. Most aramid bike tires have either aramid sidewalls and bead or an aramid vail. Because of cost and market forces, look for substantial improvement in puncture resistance without adding weight--but at a "corporate marketing conspiracy" price. This will likely be the outcome of replacing the "aramid vail" and cotton and nylon plies with mostly aramid on the bias.



DrSmile said:


> I've gotten a crap load of flats on Aramid / Kevlar lined tires. The problem is weight and comfort vs protection.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

mfdemicco said:


> What's the longest thread? Probably a helmet debate. We're up to 516 postings now and counting!


If we're going to keep this going, we are going to need some boobies


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

It's been about 300,000 miles since I've had a flat on one of my cars and yet, I use the kind that require air. In the 50's, I think that the average was likely closer to 15,000 between flats.

Bike tires are currently using mostly 30 year old technology. The market is likely not yet ready for $125 clinchers. When they do come out, expect our resident group of x-spurts to proclaim them to be a rip off without ever suffering the inconvenience of using them. It is the RBR forum way.


mfdemicco said:


> The only truly flat proof tires are the airless ones.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> The notion that road bike tire technology is at its' zenith is nonsense. Most aramid bike tires have either aramid sidewalls and bead or an aramid vail. Because of cost and market forces, look for substantial improvement in puncture resistance without adding weight--but at a "corporate marketing conspiracy" price. This will likely be the outcome of replacing the "aramid vail" and cotton and nylon plies with mostly aramid on the bias.


Can't I just have a tire that rides like a Vittoria Open Corsa 25mm
Has the puncture protection of the Conti Gatorskin
Has the grip of the Vittoria Open Pave
Is under 200 grams
and costs $35 

Is that really too much to ask?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

basically all our bikes will become obsolete if the manufacturers have their way.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> basically all our bikes will become obsolete if the manufacturers have their way.


So true.

Cars are going to 4 wheel drive and automatic driving. Driver can sit back and text to his heart's content. When is Shimano going to come up with a riderless bike? :aureola:


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

factory feel said:


> basically all our bikes will become obsolete if the manufacturers have their way.


Those bass turds!


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

ziscwg said:


> Can't I just have a tire that rides like a Vittoria Open Corsa 25mm
> Has the puncture protection of the Conti Gatorskin
> Has the grip of the Vittoria Open Pave
> Is under 200 grams
> ...


At $90, I have just the tire: vredestein Fortezza superlite

Edit to add:

These tires work great with any kind of brakes! Disk breaks too!

There for a minute, I thought I was going to get yelled at for talking about tires in the wrong forum.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> In summary, you are neither a user, a designer, nor have you demonstrated any understanding of how and why they provide superior braking.


The issue really isn't whether they provide "superior" braking (though now having used hydraulic discs, I question that as well at least in the dry), the question is whether that braking (better or not) is a) needed and b) worth the considerable drawbacks of disc brakes. 

I mean a 50lb anchor would make a VERY effective brake, but I don't want to haul it around for the 80% of the time that I'm not braking while riding my bike. 

In any case, however, I guess we've "won" since the "other side" is now down to ad hominem and creative speculation on what other changes anti-disc folks might or might not support in the future. Not really surprising since an argument on the facts heavily favors rim brakes - no matter how loudly anyone yells to the contrary.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

OldChipper said:


> I mean a 50lb anchor would make a VERY effective brake, but I don't want to haul it around for the 80% of the time that I'm not braking while riding my bike.


Don't bring up reasonable ideas like this without including the important details!!! Is it a sintered anchor or a resin anchor? On a straight downhill in the rain on Thursday sintered pads will easily make up for the 80% of time you aren't on the brakes.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

where will it stop? heated seats?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

factory feel said:


> where will it stop? heated seats?


On some cold February rides I would TOTALLY go for a heated seat. If it helped brake the bike that would be even better! How about a heated anchor, kills two birds with one hunk of steel?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Heated seat is nice. Heated bars would be nice too. If we're going to have bikes with motors they'll have the battery thing figured out. We can ditch the motor and use the fancy battery to heat our bike up. Heated pedals too, yes, heated pedals.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The last time I looked, this thread was about the "pro peleton" and disc brakes. Since a 13lb bike is easily achievable and hydro discs add about a pound, this weight issue is a non sequitur.

If on the other hand, you need a bike that weighs less than the pros, it is relevant. How much under 14lbs does your current bike weigh?

Finally, I understand the mentality that suggests that every innovation of value that can be invented, has been invented. It's a tenet of the religion, however, as sacrilegious, as this may seem "necessity is a mother". If wheel changes become a big enough problem, I reckon that some atheist will go to work on finding a way to reduce them. In the case of tire puncture technology, cycling is 30 years behind automobiles. It may not be genius but rather market feasibility that is holding it back. When the pros find a solution, recreational cyclists who dislike flats for other reasons may be willing to pay more for more puncture resistant tires. 



OldChipper said:


> The issue really isn't whether they provide "superior" braking (though now having used hydraulic discs, I question that as well at least in the dry), the question is whether that braking (better or not) is a) needed and b) worth the considerable drawbacks of disc brakes.
> 
> I mean a 50lb anchor would make a VERY effective brake, but I don't want to haul it around for the 80% of the time that I'm not braking while riding my bike.
> 
> In any case, however, I guess we've "won" since the "other side" is now down to ad hominem and creative speculation on what other changes anti-disc folks might or might not support in the future. Not really surprising since an argument on the facts heavily favors rim brakes - no matter how loudly anyone yells to the contrary.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> If the objective of RBR is to provide objective opinions on products by educated users, ass-talking by ignorant non-users may not be fundamental to that end.


Am I the only one that finds it amusing how there is this assumption that because someone doesn't want road disc brakes that they have never used them before or have no experience with them?


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

40 lb. anchors offer better modulation.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I've been careful to talk only about hydro road discs as it is anybody's guess what combination of levers and discs others may be talking about and combinations that run the spectrum from awful to excellent are possible. Further, refuting obvious misinformation has little to do with people who don't want disc brakes. 



taodemon said:


> Am I the only one that finds it amusing how there is this assumption that because someone doesn't want road disc brakes that they have never used them before or have no experience with them?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

when the time comes that I am forced to choose, I will firmly disavow disc brakes.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> when the time comes that I am forced to choose, I will firmly disavow disc brakes.


Yep, vote with your wallet. Disk brakes are not for everyone. They are only for people who now want to go fast. However, the bike has to be red also.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

SwiftSolo said:


> I've been careful to talk only about hydro road discs as it is anybody's guess what combination of levers and discs others may be talking about and combinations that run the spectrum from awful to excellent are possible. Further, refuting obvious misinformation has little to do with people who don't want disc brakes.


I have no problem with disk brakes. I just find it ridiculous that you're arguments imply all road bikes should have disk brakes because rim brakes suck in comparison.

My rim brakes easily have enough power to lift the rear tire off the ground and have great modulation to the point I've ridden a stoppie from 30mph (practice emergency braking before an emergency actually happens). In wet conditions traction is more of a problem than braking so I ride accordingly. They are so quick and simple to maintain I'm sure someone could literally teach a monkey to do it. Not to mention cheaper when buying a new bike. Your money could be put into a better drive-tran rather than disk brakes.

Disk brakes no matter how high of quality need to be bled on occasion, more frequent pad changes, need readjustment after a wheel swap, pads get contaminated easily which wreaks havoc on braking performance and eventually you will have a terrible squealing problem that's very annoying. They do have a nice feel but at the cost of a list of time consuming problems that will eventually be encountered just to solve one minor problem of better feel and have mildly better wet performance.

I don't care if they make road bikes with disk brakes if that's what some people want. I just don't want that to be my only option when it comes time to buy a new bike. At the moment it looks like there are manufactures which will be keeping rim brake models.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

I will never buy or ride a road bike with disc brakes! 

I was previously considering it strongly. At one point, I was eagerly anticipating disc brakes for my road bike. Drooling, as it were.

But this thread ruined it for me.

Rim brakes forever. Give me rim brakes or give me death.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I suggest this type of bike may need a new category name

_commuter/wet bike_ *or* 

_sleek multi/purpose bike_ *or* 

_utility pedaling apparatus in a wind resistant form, with an off road braking package._


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

ziscwg said:


> If we're going to keep this going, we are going to need some boobies
> 
> View attachment 312750


Yes! I was waiting for someone to show a pair of cute boobies in this thread! Repped!


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> I will never buy or ride a road bike with disc brakes!
> 
> I was previously considering it strongly. At one point, I was eagerly anticipating disc brakes for my road bike. Drooling, as it were.
> 
> ...


What I find surprising is that here on RBR I see so few convincing arguments in favor of disc brakes. I’ve never used them, and I’m willing to believe they are better in certain circumstances. I really am. Who am I to contradict people who used them? 

But how much better are they?

One would think that if they were significantly better, it would be easy to prove. When I bought my first serious race bike, I could have had downtube shifters and old-fashioned pedals. I had never used brifters or clipless pedals, but I knew I wanted them. The advantages were immediately clear. 

But as soon as the conversation turns to discs here on RBR, the arguments in favor get rather thin. Physical arguments are given, but they’re nonsense – sometimes outrageous nonsense (Pirx’ observations are right on). 
Mountain bikers love them. So what? CX world champions don’t need them, and both MTB and CX are quite different from road riding. 
Better braking power. But rim brakes already have too much braking power – I’m never scared that I can’t stop, I’m scared that I’ll lock a wheel. More and immediately available braking power in the wet. OK, I’ll buy that – but again, the main problem for me is that the risk you’ll lock a wheel and lose traction is even bigger when it’s wet. It’s the rubber and not the brakes. 
Faster on descents in the mountains. OK, but I’ve done the Route des Grandes Alpes and my speed on the descents was limited by my courage and my technique, not by a lack of precision or power of my calipers. As soon as I hit 50 mph I back down, and last second braking before an unknown hairpin (that may be covered with gravel) is not my favorite option. 
Better with wheels with carbon rims. Maybe true, but my bike doesn’t have carbon rims. 
Better modulation. Not a bad argument. Better modulation is always nice. On the other hand, it’s unclear if this better modulation is a property of the discs – it’s at least as plausible that the hydraulics are responsible. 
Then there’s the opinion of the pro’s. I think it was Tom Boonen who downplayed the importance of discs brakes. If I remember correctly, he has said that that discs don’t make much of a difference. I’ll take his opinion over anyone’s opinion here on RBR.

Is that the best that’s on offer in favor of disc brakes? Pretty thin, if you ask me. I’m all in favor of better brakes, but they’ll have to be significantly better to justify a new bike with a new fork etc. 

Honestly, at this point the only people who really love discs seem to be a limited number of recreational riders (sometimes True Believers, and therefore slightly suspect as any psychologist will tell you) and commuters (and they’re often happy with mechanical disc brakes).


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

HFroller said:


> What I find surprising is that here on RBR I see so few convincing arguments in favor of disc brakes. I’ve never used them, and I’m willing to believe they are better in certain circumstances. I really am. Who am I to contradict people who used them?
> 
> But how much better are they?
> 
> ...


"but but they're on cars and trucks so we MUST need them!"


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm totally fine with letting designs and technology evolve. If an improvement doesn't actually improve something, it probably won't last very long in the marketplace or on the pro circuit anyway. And if the design does make a previous design obsolete or impossible to repair, I'll just locate an old part on the RBR Classifieds, which are now free!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I only have 27 years until I buy my next bike so this thread will have to settle it before then.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Mapei said:


> If an improvement doesn't actually improve something, it probably won't last very long in the marketplace.


oh what a dreadful period it may be though....unless we collectively stand up to them!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> oh what a dreadful period it may be though....unless we collectively stand up to them!


Well, we stood our ground on biopace oval chain rings! :nono: Of course they're trying to bring them back 30 years later. The youngsters missed it the first time.

These gravel bikes, cyclocross rigs, grand fondo "go anywhere bikes" are a mere return to "sport touring" and full touring rigs of the '80s that had rack eyelets and enough clearance for 32 mm tires. :frown2:

Now we got this latest bling: 10 speed bikes! WTF? Yep, 10 speed is back, one in front! :frown2: How long is that super narrow chain going to last ratcheting over all those cogs? :lol:

I could go on.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)




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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

And then this:


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fajita Dave said:


> I have no problem with disk brakes. I just find it ridiculous that you're arguments imply all road bikes should have disk brakes because rim brakes suck in comparison.
> 
> My rim brakes easily have enough power to lift the rear tire off the ground and have great modulation to the point I've ridden a stoppie from 30mph (practice emergency braking before an emergency actually happens). In wet conditions traction is more of a problem than braking so I ride accordingly. They are so quick and simple to maintain I'm sure someone could literally teach a monkey to do it. Not to mention cheaper when buying a new bike. Your money could be put into a better drive-tran rather than disk brakes.
> 
> ...


Dave,
I'll repeat this for the 15th time. I don't care at all whether people want road hydro disc brakes--never have-never will. And for the 15th time I'll point out that if you don't ride on steep hair pin mountain descents and don't ride in the rain, they may be of little benefit.

It would be good if those without experience would stop pretending to be experts. I should have realized before now that ass-talkers outnumber actual users by about 3 to 1 on RBR. It's kind of a shame that this has become a hiding place for those killing life/time until payday. 

I've done what I could to provide insight to those looking for accurate information from an actual user.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> I'll repeat this for the 15th time. I don't care at all whether people want road hydro disc brakes--never have-never will. And for the 15th time I'll point out that if you don't ride on steep hair pin mountain descents and don't ride in the rain, they may be of little benefit.


You wouldn't be able to provide links to those other 14 times that you have said these things, eh? You know, only if it isn't too much trouble, of course.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> I should have realized before now that ass-talkers outnumber actual users by about 3 to 1 on RBR. It's kind of a shame that this has become a hiding place for those killing life/time until payday.


That is a few times now you have insulted the people here at RBR. If you think we are all just dumb assess then why don't you go find somthing better to do and stop wasting your time trying to convince everyone what we need.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> Dave,
> I don't care at all whether people want road hydro disc brakes--never have-never will...I'll point out that if you don't ride on steep hair pin mountain descents and don't ride in the rain, they may be of little benefit.


new to this one...

So after 22 pages, if I don't ride steep hairpin descents in the rain, disc brakes are of little benefit? 
Thanks, was wondering. AND not OR. 

I have a ton of experience with car and motorcycle hydraulic disc brakes. Long term, my experience is the disc calipers and pistons all gunk up and get sluggish, then freeze. New, great. But 5~10+ years down the road, it gets ugly, especially in wet dirty conditions. 

I've rebuilt, or replaced then bled many a disc caliper and master cylinder. On cars and motorcycles going back to the 70's. 

Brake cables and rim brake pads on bikes, sure they need attention over time - new pads and cables, etc. but they never _froze_ on me like disc brake pistons did over time. 

And that bike repair was a lot easier and cheaper than dealing with disc brake hydraulics. 

Small point for the lawyers - "hydro" is how they make electric power in Canada. Correct term for brakes is hydraulic.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> Well, we stood our ground on biopace oval chain rings! :nono: Of course they're trying to bring them back 30 years later. The youngsters missed it the first time.
> 
> These gravel bikes, cyclocross rigs, grand fondo "go anywhere bikes" are a mere return to "sport touring" and full touring rigs of the '80s that had rack eyelets and enough clearance for 32 mm tires. :frown2:
> 
> ...



Don't forget the worst MTB brake idea in the history of cycling: U-Brakes, a.k.a. Stupid Mud-Collecting Often-Quasi-Useless Brake-Like Objects. My 1986 Shogun Prairie Breaker Pro came equipped with the latest "innovations" including BioPace chainrings (there is a label saying "Designed by a computer" but it forgot to say that computers don't have knees and biopace will wreck your knees) and U-Brakes. 

The MTB magazines raved about Biopace and U-Brakes, coincidentally (I'm sure) in magazines loaded with ads for these components and bikes with these components.


Edit to add:

I'm not a luddite. I am, however, a cynic when it comes to the latest "innovation" in the bicycling industry. My road bike is campy record and chorus 8-spd, NOS parts whenever I can get 'em, and I LIKE it!!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Z'mer said:


> new to this one...
> 
> So after 22 pages, if I don't ride steep hairpin descents in the rain, disc brakes are of little benefit?
> Thanks, was wondering. AND not OR.
> ...


That is why all these hydro, I mean hydraulic, brakes have rebuild kits, and they ain't cheap! But yep basically over time, the seals of the pistons will deteriorate and will need to be replaced. I have had to do that to my Magura brakes on my mtb after about 4 years of use, 99% in dry weather. Magura said it would last 5 years, but mine started going bad in 4 years, because I was getting air bubbles in the system shortly after a bleed. That was when I had to overhaul the calipers. There is no way these seals will last 10 years, even if they're not being used much, the oil will tend to crack the rubber in that long period of time anyway.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Z'mer said:


> "hydro" is how they make electric power in Canada. Correct term for brakes is hydraulic.


thank you for pointing this out. It bugs me when I see it.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SPlKE said:


> I'm not a luddite. I am, however, a cynic when it comes to the latest "innovation" in the bicycling industry.


This. Just look at those press-fit BBs everybody is starting to push. God, my guess is that not even Swifty would defend those pieces of crap as improvements...


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> That is why all these hydro, I mean hydraulic, brakes have rebuild kits, and they ain't cheap! But yep basically over time, the seals of the pistons will deteriorate and will need to be replaced. I have had to do that to my Magura brakes on my mtb after about 4 years of use, 99% in dry weather. Magura said it would last 5 years, but mine started going bad in 4 years, because I was getting air bubbles in the system shortly after a bleed. That was when I had to overhaul the calipers. There is no way these seals will last 10 years, even if they're not being used much, the oil will tend to crack the rubber in that long period of time anyway.


Unfortunately, Shimano doesn't have rebuild kits.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

mfdemicco said:


> Unfortunately, Shimano doesn't have rebuild kits.


They don't? So, every five years I'm going to buy new brakes? This keeps getting better and better. I have to get me one of these!


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Pirx said:


> They don't? So, every five years I'm going to buy new brakes? This keeps getting better and better. I have to get me one of these!


Perhaps you should be buying a new bike more frequently, like every year or so. Brake rebuild problem solved!


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

SPlKE said:


> Perhaps you should be buying a new bike more frequently, like every year or so. Brake rebuild problem solved!


I have not had to buy car tires in years taking this same approach. 👍💰


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

mfdemicco said:


> Unfortunately, Shimano doesn't have rebuild kits.


They want you to buy new calipers. Rebuild kits make sense for DIY mechanics, but the labor rate at LBS would likely make the rebuild cost more than just bolting a new one on. But maybe they don't even sell calipers either. You needed new levers anyways, right? Don't forget the new rotors and bleed kit/fluid.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

T K said:


> I have not had to buy car tires in years taking this same approach. 👍💰


Same. And oil changes. Car due for oil change? Trade it in on a new model.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Pirx said:


> They don't? So, every five years I'm going to buy new brakes? This keeps getting better and better. I have to get me one of these!












*IF* you even needed to replace a caliper after 5 years, it's only around $50. 

The $60 chain on my bike gets replaced every year, I go through at least a couple of tires in a year at $70+ each, more if they get damaged by road debris. The brake pads for my carbon wheels cost $70 and those need to get replaced every year. The possibility of spending $50 or even $100 on maintenance after 5+ years of use isn't unreasonable. 


And if you really want to whine, try getting into a really expensive hobby like cars :mad2:



.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

taodemon said:


> Am I the only one that finds it amusing how there is this assumption that because someone doesn't want road disc brakes that they have never used them before or have no experience with them?


I guess we should make sure one used the current gen of road disk brakes. Some of those half cocked hybrids and temperature limited seal (SRAM) left a lot to be desired.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

mfdemicco said:


> Unfortunately, Shimano doesn't have rebuild kits.





Pirx said:


> They don't? So, every five years I'm going to buy new brakes? This keeps getting better and better. I have to get me one of these!


yeah, they don't do rebuild kits
However, when I had to replace a caliper from my own mistake, it was $50.. That included pads and it being filled and sealed. There was also a few extra in there too


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Pirx said:


> This. Just look at those press-fit BBs everybody is starting to push. God, my guess is that not even Swifty would defend those pieces of crap as improvements...


When one of these things came into the shop creaking and driving the rider crazy, i often wondered at how perverse it is to press fit a bearing that will have to stand up to intense side to side flexing almost guaranteed to wiggle it loose! The only thing holding it together is now in the crank spindle and arms? And how solid a fit will you get torquing down soft plastic? ut:

Clearly worse than cup and cone BBs! The good ones lasted forever, and never creaked.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> When one of these things came into the shop creaking and driving the rider crazy, i often wondered at how perverse it is to press fit a bearing that will have to stand up to intense side to side flexing almost guaranteed to wiggle it loose! The only thing holding it together is now in the crank spindle and arms? And how solid a fit will you get torquing down soft plastic? ut:
> 
> Clearly worse than cup and cone BBs! The good ones lasted forever, and never creaked.


Do not question innovation!

You must adapt to innovation!


Edit to add:

My latest campy chorus 8 NOS RD:










$100. 

Suck it, innovation!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> Do not question innovation!
> 
> You must adapt to innovation!
> 
> ...


Awesome. In the big ring, too! 21, 22 t. low gear, too! :yesnod:

I had a Chorus just like that on the commuter back in the 90s. Bent it in a crash. Still have it. When the, gasp, Shimano Deore gets wiggly, maybe I'll fix up the old Chorus and put it back on. Very pretty!

Well, the mechs had fits dealing with these press fit BBs and this did not go over well with customers, to say the least. They came back frequently, creaking again. The cup and cone BBs never came back. They were solid and stayed together, hardened aluminum alloy on steel, yessir! The crank arms on the square tapered spindles would always come loose first, largely because after assembly, the bolts were never torqued down after the first couple of rides, and never checked in later inspections.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> Awesome. In the big ring, too! 21, 22 t. low gear, too! :yesnod:
> 
> I had a Chorus just like that on the commuter back in the 90s. Bent it in a crash. Still have it. When the, gasp, Shimano Deore gets wiggly, maybe I'll fix up the old Chorus and put it back on. Very pretty!


12-21 NOS record cassette. 53 big ring. campy record, NOS. (SRAM 9 spd chain.) I ride on all kinds of terrain. I still can't figure out where I'd need a lower, higher, or more-middle gear than I can get with my campy 8 spd.

Also, I'm riding with NOS campy record or chorus BB, crank arms and brakes (non disc). Damb fine setup. If I do say so myself.

The nice thing about this old campy chorus and record stuff is that you can buy all the parts you need to rebuild, right down to the tiniest screws, ratchets, springs, etc.

And there's a shtload of it around for sale, even lots of NOS, since everybody who was anybody dropped campy 8 like a bad habit as soon as the innovative new campy 9 came out. etc, etc.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

SPlKE said:


> The nice thing about this old campy chorus and record stuff is that you can buy all the parts you need to rebuild, right down to the tiniest screws, ratchets, springs, etc.


Not any more. Campagnolo no longer sells internals for pointy-hood ergo levers apart from the G-springs which were still used through 2008, and NOS small part supplies have dried up - I bought the last right shift paddle return spring from Loose Screws.

After breaking the ratchet spring on that paddle assembly (also no longer available) I updated from 1996 Chorus to NOS 2010 Centaur Carbon Ultrashift levers and 2004-2006 Record Titanium derailleurs.

I don't miss rebuilding my right shifter every 2-3 years due to broken or worn G-springs, although cable life dropping from 4500 miles to 2500 (from the tighter 90 degree bend in the shifter instead of a wider radius in the housing) was not a pleasant surprise. I'm now on a 2000 mile 8-10 week replacement schedule to avoid breaking cables in the middle of rides.



> And there's a shtload of it around for sale, even lots of NOS, since everybody who was anybody dropped campy 8 like a bad habit as soon as the innovative new campy 9 came out. etc, etc.


I replaced my right index cam and pair of 1996 Chorus freehubs when they dropped the 13-21 8 speed cassette around 2000.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> 12-21 NOS record cassette. 53 big ring. campy record, NOS. (SRAM 9 spd chain.) I ride on all kinds of terrain. I still can't figure out where I'd need a lower, higher, or more-middle gear than I can get with my campy 8 spd.
> 
> Also, I'm riding with NOS campy record or chorus BB, crank arms and brakes (non disc). Damb fine setup. If I do say so myself.
> 
> ...


Yep.

There's a large after market for this old stuff, as well as compatible after market parts to satisfy the demand, thanks to e bay, et. al. Fascinating that apparently there's a similar trend in old cars, including the muscle cars and ostentatious, badly built sedans that caused Detroit to lose market share to Honda and Toyota. 


Bikes are a bit like cars. The good ones survive as collector's items or custom builds, like old Camaros and Mustangs. They're as much fun to ride today, as they were when spry and young. Also like a fine hand tool, rifle, or acoustic musical instrument! Find a rhythm, a sweet spot, and play on!


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Not any more. Campagnolo no longer sells internals for pointy-hood ergo levers apart from the G-springs which were still used through 2008, and NOS small part supplies have dried up - I bought the last right shift paddle return spring from Loose Screws.
> 
> After breaking the ratchet spring on that paddle assembly (also no long available) I updated from 1996 Chorus to NOS 2010 Centaur Carbon Ultrashift levers and 2004-2006 Record Titanium derailleurs.
> 
> ...


Dayum. I've been living in a fantasy spare parts paradise.

Anyway, I have a bunch of NOS campy record 10-spd stuff squirreled away for my future 10-spd build.









In fact, I'm about to put up on ebay a set of NOS in-box campy record 10-spd carbon QS shifters (brifters) on ebay. I accidentally bought two identical sets on ebay a year or so ago.







The Old Battleaxe says I have to sell a set before I'm allowed to buy any more NOS Campy parts on ebay.



Edit to add:

Disk breaks! In the pro peleton, FFS! Amirite? (back on topic)


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

MoPho said:


> The *$60* chain on my bike gets replaced every year, I go through at least a couple of tires in a year at *$70*+ each. The brake pads for my carbon wheels cost *$70*


pm me for a better place to shop


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> pm me for a better place to shop


No thanks. Even if you can find the good stuff for cheaper, the point still stands


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

factory feel said:


> oh what a dreadful period it may be though....unless we collectively stand up to them!


Go riding with me up in the mountains around here tomorrow. You'll find this odd "need" for them as you descend hwy 9 into Saratoga while it's raining.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ziscwg said:


> Go riding with me up in the mountains around here tomorrow. You'll find this odd "need" for them as you descend hwy 9 into Saratoga while it's raining.


I live in California and it never rains here. I'd have to catch an eastbound 747, but I'm out of work and I wanna stay home.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> I live in California and it never rains here. I'd have to catch an eastbound 747, but I'm out of work and I wanna stay home.



I also live in California and rained for nearly the entire months of Dec and Jan. And now it started raining yesterday and not expected to stop for the next ten days…. No need to get on a plane


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