# Are Tubeless Tyres the way forward or haven't they caught on?



## miurasv (Jun 4, 2010)

I notice there aren't many tubeless tyres offered by the manufacturers. Didn't they catch on or are the tyres still in development by the manufacturers who will be offering them for sale in the near future?


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Nobody really knows (but you'll get a lot of personal opinions). Just two years ago, there was just one tubeless tire available. Now there are a few tire manufacturers and a number of compatible wheels. Will the trend continue? I dunno, but a good indication would be whats shown at Sea Otter next month.


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## brians647 (Mar 2, 2007)

"Are Tubeless Tyres the way forward or haven't they caught on?"

both.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Cycling seems like one of the few markets where supply leads demand. In other words whatever gets pushed by marketing gets bought by cyclists.

And with companies like Shimano pushing tubeless I'm guessing they'll be something everyone's got to have in the future.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Hank Stamper said:


> Cycling seems like one of the few markets where supply leads demand. In other words whatever gets pushed by marketing gets bought by cyclists.
> 
> And with companies like Shimano pushing tubeless I'm guessing they'll be something everyone's got to have in the future.


Rapid Rise, Biopace, mountain brifters, Flight Deck and SPD-R may disagree with you.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

When they start making tubeless tires that are as good as the ones that use tubes, then I might be interested.


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## johnsocj (Aug 5, 2002)

Wow. Yeah. Mountain brifters- I haven't paid attention, but did those die as painfully as I thought they would?

LOVE that list of failed Shimano projects- but it also points to their bravery and durability as a company that they can put ideas into production and learn from them, and customers response.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

It was a godsent for mountain biking.. so many people ride thorn infested trails and really struggled with pin prick flats. Tubeless (with sealant) completely solves this problem for them.

Sure theres other nearly immeasurable benefits, but thats the big one. I dont feel inclined to change on my road bike or mountain bike.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

While wife and I ride on Shimano DA WH 7900 c24 TL’s we both use tubes on those wheels now after some experience with CF bead installation and change. Our experience is that until the process of initial installation, sealant introduction via valve (in this case Shimano) and on the road fix flat gets easier, cleaner and quicker… we’ll continue to run with the many proven tire and tube combos popularly available. Make no mistake; those Shimano TL’s are amazingly light, quick, fast and strong wheels with the ride of tubeless like butter. But the reality of running road tubeless is still cumbersome compare to popular tube clinchers. Besides, we don’t lose much by running tubes on those TL wheels anyway. 

Sum: we’d like to see more manufacture attention to tire mount/change simplicity as well as providing us greater product options before we run pure tubeless.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

DonDenver said:


> Our experience is that until the process of initial installation, sealant introduction via valve (in this case Shimano) and on the road fix flat gets easier, cleaner and quicker… we’ll continue to run with the many proven tire and tube combos popularly available. ............ But the reality of running road tubeless is still cumbersome compare to popular tube clinchers. ..........
> Sum: we’d like to see more manufacture attention to tire mount/change simplicity as well as providing us greater product options before we run pure tubeless.


Agreed. If you stick to the road, tubeless looks like a solution looking for a problem in most cases. Of course there wont be any significant pro developement/marketing spin since they run tubulars plus a team car!


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## gsorvino (Jan 16, 2011)

I just started using tubeless; thought I would try them since the wheels will work with both. I will voice an opinion once I have a chance to really try them and maybe after the first flat LOL. I only have 50 miles thanks to the weather but so far the ride is nice and they handle well.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

miurasv said:


> I notice there aren't many tubeless tyres offered by the manufacturers. Didn't they catch on or are the tyres still in development by the manufacturers who will be offering them for sale in the near future?


Road Tubeless is catching on; there are many more tires available now.

Those who don't like Road Tubeless, or who have tried it and had trouble, generally just don't understand it. Treating a Road Tubeless setup like a regular clincher setup just won't work; they're not the same.

I'm amused by the people that write poorly about it, yet they've never ridden or used it at all.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I'll use them if there are any advantages that make sense. For now they are heavier, have higher rolling resistance... and I don't ride through thorns on the road.


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## miurasv (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, I thought they were about the same weight as a tyre and tube combination, less rolling resistance, can be run with lower pressure giving increased comfort and the the big one for me is safety in that they don't deflate as quickly as a tubed tyre when punctured.


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## miurasv (Jun 4, 2010)

pmt said:


> *Road Tubeless is catching on; there are many more tires available now*.
> 
> Those who don't like Road Tubeless, or who have tried it and had trouble, generally just don't understand it. Treating a Road Tubeless setup like a regular clincher setup just won't work; they're not the same.
> 
> I'm amused by the people that write poorly about it, yet they've never ridden or used it at all.


What manufacturers are making tubeless tyres now and which are the best?


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## MWT (Nov 12, 2002)

miurasv said:


> What manufacturers are making tubeless tyres now and which are the best?


Hutchinson Atom - narrowest, lightest
Hutchinson Fusion 3 - 23mm width (most commonly used)
Hutchinson Intensive - 25mm training tire
Specialized - a Fusion 3 labeled as Specialized
Bontrager - a Hutchinson (either Atom or Fusion 3)
Maxxis Padrone - 23mm, NOT a Hutchinson
IRC - available in Europe, Japan


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## miurasv (Jun 4, 2010)

MWT said:


> Hutchinson Atom - narrowest, lightest
> Hutchinson Fusion 3 - 23mm width (most commonly used)
> Hutchinson Intensive - 25mm training tire
> Specialized - a Fusion 3 labeled as Specialized
> ...


Hutchinson seems to be the main supplier of tubeless tyres then. Haven't the other manufacturers got anything coming out or in the pipeline?


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## hrumpole (Jun 17, 2008)

Could one of you explain for the ignorant the difference between tubless and tubular?


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## bent steel (Dec 28, 2007)

hrumpole said:


> Could one of you explain for the ignorant the difference between tubless and tubular?


A tubular is a tire with a tube stitched inside of it and requires a different rim without a hooked edge that you can glue the tubular onto. This setup requires the complete tire and tube to be replaced in the event of a puncture, you can not replace the tube without unstitching the tire casing.

Road tubeless is designed to work on a clincher style rim (albeit with a slightly modified bead design) with a tire only, no tube. The tire design is more robust than a regular clincher tire, as it needs to hold air, which a tube normally does on a traditional clincher setup. This setup generally calls for a liquid sealant to help prevent flats, however some have had luck not running any sealant. You can run traditional clincher tires and tubes on a road tubeless setup.

As a mountain biker, I have had nothing but bad luck with Hutchinson tires and until a major road tire manufacturer like Vittoria, Continental or Michelin gets on board with road tubeless, I will continue to ignore it.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

miurasv said:


> Well, I thought they were about the same weight as a tyre and tube combination, less rolling resistance, can be run with lower pressure giving increased comfort and the the big one for me is safety in that they don't deflate as quickly as a tubed tyre when punctured.


Compared to the Conti Supersonics and latex tubes I use for racing, the Atom is ~55g heavier (each) and has ~20% higher rolling resistance. Latex tubes don't pinch easily either... I'd be more worried about denting a rim at that point. And the tubeless tires are expensive which makes them pricey for training.

The benefit is much better puncture resistance if you put sealant in them.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Where do you get 20%?


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## malanb (Oct 26, 2009)

Why would you want to lower the psi in tubeless. To feel a mushy bike? IT JUST FEELS CRAPPY TO LOWER PSI.


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## bent steel (Dec 28, 2007)

Lower pressure only works to a point. If you haven't read the (in)famous article from Bicycle Quarterly about wider tires being faster, it's worth a look:
http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/BQ64TireTest.pdf


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## miurasv (Jun 4, 2010)

Do tubeless tyres normally run at lower pressure than tubed tyres and is this the only reason they are more comfortable? If so do they give the same performance as a tubed tyre would at a higher pressure?


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## gsorvino (Jan 16, 2011)

MWT said:


> Hutchinson Atom - narrowest, lightest
> Hutchinson Fusion 3 - 23mm width (most commonly used)
> Hutchinson Intensive - 25mm training tire
> Specialized - a Fusion 3 labeled as Specialized
> ...



Hutchinson's Intensive tires are labeled 25MM but the ones I have measure about 23MM with a digital mic @ 95 PSI.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

rruff said:


> When they start making tubeless tires that are as good as the ones that use tubes, then I might be interested.


In what ways are they not as good?


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## miurasv (Jun 4, 2010)

rruff said:


> Compared to the Conti Supersonics and latex tubes I use for racing, the Atom is ~55g heavier (each) and has ~20% higher rolling resistance. Latex tubes don't pinch easily either... *I'd be more worried about denting a rim at that point*. And the tubeless tires are expensive which makes them pricey for training.
> 
> The benefit is much better puncture resistance if you put sealant in them.


Do you think there could be a greater danger of denting the rims with tubeless tyres that are running on lower pressure?


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## brians647 (Mar 2, 2007)

gsorvino said:
 

> Hutchinson's Intensive tires are labeled 25MM but the ones I have measure about 23MM with a digital mic @ 95 PSI.


100% correct.
I've measured mine and found the exact same thing on a 21mm wide rim.
Poor execution on Hutchinson's part. I really enjoy/almost need a 25mm tire, and that faux pas alone is both inexcusable and a deterrent from using tubeless for me.:mad2:


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

miurasv said:


> Do you think there could be a greater danger of denting the rims with tubeless tyres that are running on lower pressure?


Sure. When you get a pinched tube the only thing between the road and the rim is two layers of tire sidewall... the air cushion has disappeared. I dented two rims last summer but did not flat the latex tubes inside.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

natedg200202 said:


> In what ways are they not as good?


See my previous comments. There are lighter tire and tube combos that have quite a bit lower rolling resistance. And tubeless tires are expensive which makes them not so great for training. If you get a lot of punctures they are certainly better if you use sealant, but this is their only real advantage.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

gsorvino said:


> I just started using tubeless; thought I would try them since the wheels will work with both. I will voice an opinion once I have a chance to really try them and maybe after the first flat LOL. I only have 50 miles thanks to the weather but so far the ride is nice and they handle well.


Ha! I'm only 5 miles ahead of you riding my new tubeless wheels/tires.
So far, so good.


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## miurasv (Jun 4, 2010)

Oh dear! The tubeless route doesn't sound too good does it? I just hope that Michelin, Continental and the other tyre makers bring out some good tubeless tyres soon.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

tubeless is an excellent option.

call BS ont the idea that fusions have 20% greater rolling resisitance
than some inderscernible difference than other tires..

have half of the people on here who criticize them even ridden tubeless?????

great ride, grip, flat protection with speed; what more can a person want??

really....


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## brians647 (Mar 2, 2007)

rruff said:


> Sure. When you get a pinched tube the only thing between the road and the rim is two layers of tire sidewall... the air cushion has disappeared. I dented two rims last summer but did not flat the latex tubes inside.


Please explain differently, if you don't mind, because I don't get this.
Tubeless tires have a similar sidewall thickness to a tube/tire combo... They both squish the same way.... How would running lower air pressure in one be any different than another?
If anything (and it's a different point) I'd think a tubeless-specific rim have more reinforcement in the rim structure thereby making it harder to dent - no matter what kind of tire you ran.



miurasv said:


> Oh dear! The tubeless route doesn't sound too good does it? I just hope that Michelin, Continental and the other tyre makers bring out some good tubeless tyres soon.


The tubeless route is a good one, it just needs refinement.
As it stands, it's a good fit for some folks, and not so good for others.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

brians647 said:


> Please explain differently, if you don't mind, because I don't get this.
> Tubeless tires have a similar sidewall thickness to a tube/tire combo... They both squish the same way.... How would running lower air pressure in one be any different than another?
> If anything (and it's a different point) I'd think a tubeless-specific rim have more reinforcement in the rim structure thereby making it harder to dent - no matter what kind of tire you ran.


This is the question I was answering:

"Do you think there could be a greater danger of denting the rims with tubeless tyres that are running on lower pressure?"

If you run lower pressure in your tubeless tires, then you are in greater danger of denting the rims... compared to running higher pressure.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

a_avery007 said:


> great ride, grip, flat protection with speed; what more can a person want??
> 
> really....


Really?... removing the tubes (which are latex in my case) provides all those benefits? If so then why can't they be measured? 

I wonder why tubulars still have tubes, if the tubes are so evil. Seems like a very simple matter to remove them.


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## MWT (Nov 12, 2002)

brians647 said:


> 100% correct.
> I've measured mine and found the exact same thing on a 21mm wide rim.
> Poor execution on Hutchinson's part. I really enjoy/almost need a 25mm tire, and that faux pas alone is both inexcusable and a deterrent from using tubeless for me.:mad2:


My Fusion 2's measure about 24mm and my new Fusion 3s measure about 22mm. It's a difference visible to the naked eye.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I started running tubeless back in July. I really like it. I just don't get the whole issue of it's a PITA to set up, technology still not there yet, etc..... It's really easy. You buy a tubeless ready rim, a tubeless tire, put the tire on the rim, air up the tire. It's that simple. Just like you are doing now just skip the step where you buy and install a tube. Cost wise once you buy a nice tire and latex tube you could just buy a nice tubeless tire. If you want to run sealant you have the option. If you want to run tubes you have the option. There is plenty of upside when you have a tubeless system. Since you can run any tire and tube combo on a tubeless rim I don't see a down side.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Brazos said:



> I started running tubeless back in July. I really like it. I just don't get the whole issue of it's a PITA to set up, technology still not there yet, etc..... It's really easy. You buy a tubeless ready rim, a tubeless tire, put the tire on the rim, air up the tire. It's that simple. Just like you are doing now just skip the step where you buy and install a tube. Cost wise once you buy a nice tire and latex tube you could just buy a nice tubeless tire. If you want to run sealant you have the option. If you want to run tubes you have the option. There is plenty of upside when you have a tubeless system. Since you can run any tire and tube combo on a tubeless rim I don't see a down side.


I agree. 

And since I personally seem to have a rim strip issue every year or two (at a very bad time, of course), the tubeless rim eliminates that possibility.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

Maybe it's the rim strip issue via the Stan's conversion kit that is making things difficult for some people. If you buy a tubeless ready rim and a tubeless tire there are no other parts (meaning you don't need the a rim strip conversion kit). You just put the tire on the rim, skip installing the tube, and air up. 

The only reason I would buy the Stan's rim strip conversion kit is if I had a nice set of non-tubeless clintchers I liked and I flatted a lot. In that senerio it would make sense because you could run sealant.


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## slipstream8 (Feb 24, 2011)

I just went tubeless as well. Installation was a pain in the a**, but probably not any worse than a poor-quality wire bead tire. The ride is noticeably smoother than my clinchers, and I was running Vittoria Open CX.

I got Fulcrum Racing 1 and kind of wish I had gone with the Dura-Ace instead. My pair weigh 1530g. I'm using Fusion 3 which weigh 307g each on my scale. I'd like to see Vittoria and Continental get into the tubeless market so we have more options. There is probably room for weight reduction in the tires.

Hopefully the sealant will keep me from flatting anytime soon, but for now I'm enjoying the ride quality.


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## Ryder321 (Sep 8, 2009)

pmt said:


> Road Tubeless is catching on; there are many more tires available now.


 What new tires are available?

I recently received my new DA 7900 tubeless wheels along with the Hutchinson Atoms, but haven't received my new frameset yet to build my new bike, so I haven't any experience yet with this system.

I've only found four (I think?) tires, three by Hutchinson and one from Specialized that is made by Hutchinson, apparently. They're all 700x23 with my Atoms looking even skinnier; it's a tiny tire.

Can you tell us what other tires are available, and provide URLs, please? I certainly would like a 700x25 or even a 700x28 if it would fit the 2011 S-Works Tarmac.

I'm eagerly looking forward to this new tubeless system when my frameset arrives and the snow melts and the streets are washed clean of the salt mess.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

Ryder321 said:


> What new tires are available?
> 
> I recently received my new DA 7900 tubeless wheels along with the Hutchinson Atoms, but haven't received my new frameset yet to build my new bike, so I haven't any experience yet with this system.
> 
> ...


Expanding from my earlier post:

[Ryder321] if you have not already I would suggest that you experiment and install your new tubeless tires onto the DA TL rims to see how you would manage the tubeless bead onto those rims. Works AOK for some, but when both my wife (tough as nails women cyclist btw) and I did we surmised that the practical application of fixing a flat (even considering the bead relaxing over time) was much too cumbersome v. that of popular clinchers. Also, when first installing the tires onto the DA 7900 C24 TL’s two things were obvious; first, using “soapy water brushing the bead method” with installation can leave residual h2o inside to slosh about within the rim cavity no matter how experience an installer and second, using sealant as default method to close up a small “leak” (found after submerging sections of wheel in our kitchen sink) left me feeling a bit nervous. I would prefer a solid clean seal w/o water or sealant. Nevertheless two of our four wheels required sealant to close that type of slow leak even after removal and careful cleaning of both rim and tire at the leaking spots.

So…we have mounted traditional tubes/tires onto the DA tubeless and are fine with it. Ride results of the DA’s are still exceptional with all the merits of light weight strength, roll, and incredible get up and go. We’ll certainly be ready for tubeless rubber providing that final incredible ride feel…after it matures a bit for us. 

Good luck with your build


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I think you will find the tubeless tires are tight to get the last 6" on the first time (if doing it totally by hand) but after they have been mounted a while not too big a deal. That being said it may just be a Hutchinson thing. For example I am running the Atom Comp tubeless tire. I like it so when I saw a good sale on the reguler (non-tubeless) Atom Comp tire the other day I bought some for my wife's bike. I found the regular Atom to be close in mounting effort as the tubeless Atom. So maybe it is more an Atom thing then a tubeless thing. The only difficulty I had mounting the tubeless tire the first time was not getting the tire bead to straddle the valve stem nut on the inside of the rim. Therefore I could not get the tire to seat. Once I figured it out it seated right away. Now I know to check this it has not been an issue and you can seat the tire with a floor pump.


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## Ryder321 (Sep 8, 2009)

Brazos said:


> I am running the Atom Comp tubeless tire. I like it so when I saw a good sale on the reguler (non-tubeless) Atom Comp tire the other day I bought some for my wife's bike.


 Would you like to buy my two, brand-new, never used, never successfully mounted Hutchinson Atom Comp Tubeless tires?

I cannot mount them. It doesn't matter whether others can, since they won't be with me out in the countryside when I puncture.

How does $75 for BOTH, and you pay for shipping, sound?


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## Ryder321 (Sep 8, 2009)

DonDenver said:


> [Ryder321] if you have not already I would suggest that you experiment and install your new tubeless tires onto the DA TL rims to see how you would manage the tubeless bead onto those rims.


"Manage..."

No kidding.

Thanks, Don, for encouraging me to get to it. I've got all these components stacked in boxes awaiting my frameset and spring, and I haven't done anything with them.

Actually, I'd initially made a quick attempt at tire mounting when I first received them months ago, but did not employ soapy water. They failed to fit by a wide margin, but I thought I'd get around to doing it later, following the instructions and using a lubricant.

Last night I tried to mount them after reading your post. I defy anyone to get this one Atom on this particular rim with their bare hands. Soapy water does not help. The bead is stretched extremely tight and the unmounted portion is a good 13" long, with the lower edge at midpoint actually below the spoke nipple junction with the rim. It's not even close to fitting.

After more than an hour of struggling, I gave up in principle. At this juncture, I realize that this is going to create an impossible situation out on the road for me. So, I decided to try an extreme: I liberally coated both the rim and the tire with 303, which is a protectant like Armor-All and is ultra-slippery and won't be squeegeed(sp?) off the tire and rim like the soapy water solution.

Not even then could I get that bead closer than 13".

I can try a different tire, but since they all seem to be made by Hutchinson, I don't know if they'll work. Maybe the Specialized tubeless tire will work; it's spec'd on the S-Works Roubaix.

I'll take my wheel to the shop and try to mount it right there, assuming I can find anyone who stocks these. If my somewhat painful, old-man hands cannot manage it ... then these new tubeless wheels were a big, expensive mistake.

I know I can always mount regular tires, but I haven't tried that yet. My problem there, is that the rims are now more expensive than they need to be and they're heavier than the equivalent Dura-Ace clincher rim.<sigh>

I wish I had talked to you, Don, before I bought into this debacle of tubeless technology.

I'm pissed right now, but grateful to you for your candor. Your "careful" use of words speaks volumes, especially now in retrospect.

May I ask if you "cheated" to finally get your tubeless tires mounted? Did you use a lever of some kind? Which tubeless tire did you mount? Again, I think my Atom, others may differ, on my rim is simply impossible. In fact, I think using my tire stick would bend the THIN aluminum rim or crack the carbon fiber and destroy the wheel.

I'm glad to see others have found satisfaction, anyway, but there's no joy here. :cryin:

Thanks, Don.</sigh>


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Ryder321 said:


> "Manage..."
> 
> No kidding.
> ..............
> May I ask if you "cheated" to finally get your tubeless tires mounted? Did you use a lever of some kind?.........


I've carried VAR tyre levers for years because my small weak hands have trouble with clincher tires. Since the VAR levers are a little fragile, I purchased a Kool-Stop Tire Bead Jack and cut the handle off so that it is about half as long as it was originally. It fits in my jersey pocket quite well.

Although not "easy", it is certainly easier to get the tubeless tire mounted on the DA rim, without soapy water.

I keep telling myself that I could design a lever like this that also came apart and worked as levers to remove my tire. I could get rich. Maybe. Cyclists seem to accept crappy tire levers and struggling to mount tires with their bare hands so maybe that's just another part of our "suffering" culture.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

If using a sealant is a concrete advantage of tubeless tires, does sealant work poorly in tubes?


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

Ryder321 said:


> "I'm glad to see others have found satisfaction, anyway, but there's no joy here. :cryin:


Yup Ryder, I too shared your initial frustration :mad2: ...

...but I’m holding onto those wheels nevertheless :idea: 

The weight penalty I think is in only 60 or so grams with respect to the other DA C24 clincher’s. The TL’s will also provide you greater stiffness due to their specific construction over that of their cousins. Light race rubber and latex added and nothing is really lost with these wheels. So for me, I considered the greater performance advantage and TL option with respect to the price of the wheel set and the fact I WILL (sooner than later) be riding tubeless full time.

To the mount:

I’ve seen folks mount tubeless without so much as a strain…with nothing soaped or lubed. I’ve also stood in my LBS just recently watching a seasoned rider be humbled as he grunted and struggled (hand mounting only) in front of everyone only to give up trying to loop onto the TL DA’s a pair of Specialized Turbo Tubeless (sadly seeing his pride negatively impacted). For me I needed levers but broke one as well as over watered one wheel. Actually my wife made a better effort of it IMO…but again with levers. Not everyone has this difficulty and I suspect it comes from more experience regardless of specific TL tire or wheel. Suggestions made earlier such as how to properly seat the tire bead around the valve are an example of experience. I also find that spending some time with my wrench as he’s been working more and more of these tubeless setups (an obvious trend he’s witnessing) will help me gain skills.

Interestingly I do find a number of folks state tubeless is kind of a “set it and forget it” experience anyway. That is; once a bead is properly seated and sealed along with a quality sealant added they practically never have a problem of flats on road. And if so they simply add a bit more sealant and air, wait for a minute then ride a mile, inspect, then ride on. Hell, some folks who run with road tubeless tell me I’m over thinking the issue of getting a flat and missing the positive experience of riding tubeless. May be they are right and I should just take the “leap of faith”.

One thing is for certain; I found the ride of my tubeless at a lower pressure was superior to anything I’ve ever experienced; faster, smoother…just plain awesome. So as I’m riding tubes now I’m slowly working on my (unfounded?) fears.

Keep the faith (keep the wheels) :thumbsup:


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Been through 2 different types of valve stems in an attempt to get my Atoms to seal.
Both lots have leaked at the valve stems.
I am now waiting on Stans specific road stems and will give it a final try.
If this does not work I will be ebaying the Atoms and going to Ultremo's and light weight tubes.
I have had my new Dura-Ace hubs laced to Alpha 340's sitting around for 2 weeks now while I wait in hope for the Stans valve stems.
Thinking about it, with the small number of tubeless tyre options I still wonder why I am bothering.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

I've mounted Fusion2, Fusion3, and Intensive across five different types of rim. I never use soapy water, but always use plastic tire levers. Always.

I never have any problems with mounting or inflation with a floor pump. I've used both Stan's valves (mostly) but also valves cut out of old Tufo tubulars and they work fine. I always use sealant.

I've put thousands of kilometers on Road Tubeless, including many 200k brevets, and wouldn't want to use anything else.


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## scubad (Jun 22, 2004)

I got a flat today and I've been wanting to go back to Tubeless. I ran Fusion 3's on Fulcrum Racing Zero's last year. I really like them for the ride and didn't have any problems with flats. However, I did have 2 sidewall cuts last year. One at the beginning and one at the end. (No tire survives those) Went away from tubeless after the last sidewall cut, cause it took me a long time on the road to boot the tire, put a tube in and GET THE TIRE BACK ON. Sheesh.

Any way I mounted 2 Atom's this afternoon. The front was pretty hard to get the tire fully on. I had to use a lever to mount it. 

The rear was a bit easier and didn't have to use a lever. I think I did find one trick I wanted to share. I typically seat the tire around the valve stem and work towards the opposite side of the stem. This time I seated the tire on the opposite side of the stem, making sure the tire was in the center of the channel, which is a tad deeper than by the rim edge. Then I pushed the tire all the around and didn't have to use a lever.

That might help some.

ScubaD


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## Ryder321 (Sep 8, 2009)

MerlinAma said:


> I purchased a Kool-Stop Tire Bead Jack and cut the handle off so that it is about half as long as it was originally. Although not "easy", it is certainly easier to get the tubeless tire mounted on the DA rim, without soapy water.


Okay, so you used levers on the new DA tubeless rims. I have no doubt that will work.

But Shimano tells me not to use levers or any tools. Seeing how thin, delicate even, those rim sidewalls are where the lever is to be applied ... I do not wish to take the chance of bending that sealing surface lest the rim no longer seal air as intended, but now *requires *the use of liquid sealant.

I still may wish to return these wheels to Shimano, and I cannot do that if I've damaged the rims by using tools I was expressly warned not to use. 

I'm not saying it's wrong for anyone else, of course. I just don't care to risk it. 

Thanks for your feedback.


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## Ryder321 (Sep 8, 2009)

DonDenver said:


> Yup Ryder, I too shared your initial frustration :mad2: ... I’ve also stood in my LBS just recently watching a seasoned rider be humbled as he grunted and struggled (hand mounting only) in front of everyone only to give up trying to loop onto the TL DA’s a pair of Specialized Turbo Tubeless (sadly seeing his pride negatively impacted).


Merde! (That's French for "shoot," or something like that.) 

Those were the tires I was thinking of having my Specialized dealer order for me in the hopes that surely they would fit better than the Atoms. Maybe not.



> For me I needed levers but broke one


You broke the lever? Or the wheel?

There you are, you see?! You BROKE it! I'm telling you, nobody's getting this Atom of mine on this DA rim of mine *with their bare hands* as Shimano insists. "No tools!" they say.

"Yeah? Come over here and *show *us!" I want to shout at them.

Ahnuld's not getting this thing on with bare hands.



> Not everyone has this difficulty and I suspect it comes from more experience regardless of specific TL tire or wheel


Maybe. I'm thinking it's because these tires are made in France. They don't like us, or the Limeys, for that matter. I have to believe the wheels are consistently sized. Well, that just leaves the tires. If some are easy to mount while others are impossible, I say the conclusion is obvious. There are unacceptable variations in production sizes. I'm wondering if this Atom is actually a 650B tire that some French clown decided would be fun to re-label as a 700C. 

You're optimistic, Don, and that's a good trait. My optimism is waning...



> Interestingly I do find a number of folks state tubeless is kind of a “set it and forget it” experience anyway.


Sure. The only tool one needs is a cell phone! 



> with a quality sealant added they practically never have a problem of flats on road. And if so they simply add a bit more sealant and air, wait for a minute then ride a mile, inspect, then ride on.


I don't wish to use sealant. I want to use them as originally designed and intended. I'm beginning to question whether that's possible.



> Hell, some folks who run with road tubeless tell me I’m over thinking the issue of getting a flat and missing the positive experience of riding tubeless. May be they are right and I should just take the “leap of faith”.


Absolutely! Just keep that cell phone charged!



> One thing is for certain; I found the ride of my tubeless at a lower pressure was superior to anything I’ve ever experienced; faster, smoother…just plain awesome.


Yes! That and similar testimonials repeated over and over ... is what sold me.

Grrr... 



> So as I’m riding tubes now I’m slowly working on my (unfounded?) fears.


Only fools are fearless.  Keep that cell phone charged.


> Keep the faith (keep the wheels) :thumbsup:


I'm working on it, but I'm struggling right now...


Thanks, Don, and everyone. :thumbsup:


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## gthcarolina (Feb 14, 2005)

*I liked it last year, now I'm frustrated*

I have a pair of Fusion 2s on Open Pro rims with Stans strips. I rode them all last summer and most of the fall with no flats, etc. I have a lot of rough roads and I run them a little soft.
This November I put on a set of big 28c tires with a backup wheelset to ride through the winter with crap on the road.

In the interim, my front wheel must have dried out because the air went out and it unseated the bead. My rear wheel is still tight. I spent about 3 hours yesterday trying to get the tire reseated and refilled and I just about broke a few things in frustration.

Maybe I don't remember how hard they were to mount at first? I'm going to give it another try and then maybe give up.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

I recently got a screaming deal on Eurus 2ways. I was wavering back and forth between wide rims with tubes, or tubeless. I couldn't pass up on the improved quality of the campy wheel vs the assaults I was running. 
I am using fusion 3's, which were spendy. no tire levers required to install either tire. I soaked them in my kitchen sink in hot water for a few minutes, then dried them off and put 'em on. I'm running them at 95-90 psi, which is softer than 100-105, but still not mushy, whatsoever. The overall feel is in between Conti GP4 seasons and fortezza tri-comps, which i absolutely LOVE. There is a noticeable difference in feel, but they're totally different wheels. The F3's are way better in the wet (in SoCal) vs Vredestiens in the wet in NJ. the asphault in NJ is way, way way slicker than wet tarmac in CA, riding OR driving.. 
I went with tubeless because the Eurus wheels are far more robust than Assaults, climb noticeably better, and I wanted to go down 5-10psi w/o worrying about destroying tires. 
I'd love to see vredestein put a tubeless type bead on their tricomp tire. 
I like the concept of road tubeless and think it will remain a bit of a novelty. it may usher in a revival for tubulars. 
For years and years I've been wanting to use sew ups. I am always psyched with new wheels, but there's always an element of regret for not jumping into sew ups. 
This decision will continue to be a coin toss.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*remember*

[Maybe I don't remember how hard they were to mount at first? I'm going to give it another try and then maybe give up.[/QUOTE]

watch the stan's video again.

dish soap if you are worried about amonia, i am not.
air up with wheel hanging on bike stand or something.
tires in the groove
pump up and let seat.

go ride and have fun
it is really easy!!


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## MrRogers (Feb 23, 2011)

I run tubeless on my MTB and cross bike and I'd never go back. I went tubeless on my road bike a few months back and after flatting twice with sealant put my tubes back in. Changing a flat with sealant in is a PIA and a friggin mess. I'm 220 and hate running less than 120 PSI. At this point I see no need to drop pressure so tubeless is out. 

MrR


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

FTR said:


> Been through 2 different types of valve stems in an attempt to get my Atoms to seal.
> Both lots have leaked at the valve stems.
> I am now waiting on Stans specific road stems and will give it a final try.
> If this does not work I will be ebaying the Atoms and going to Ultremo's and light weight tubes.
> ...


Well got the proper Stans valve stems today and thought all was good.
Pumped the tyres up to 110psi and they seemed AOK.
Came back 30 minutes later to find that they had left about half their pressure.
Got out the soapy water and low and behold they are leaking around the valve stem again.
So 3 times is enough chances IMO and the valve stems and Atoms are off to ebay.
No way I will trust this system when I am flying down a mountain or racing in a crit.


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## under1630 (Feb 22, 2011)

I recently went to Fulcrum Racing 0's with Hutchinson Fusion 3's. They mounted up w/o much difficulty after watching the Stan's video and lightly soaping the tires before install. Both wheels required the use of tire levers, but I carry them with me when I ride anyways, so no big deal. It took about 5 minutes per wheel and both aired right up with the distinctive "pop, pop" as the beads seated around 80 psi. I inflated both to 120 psi and they didn't leak at all. I removed the valve stem and put in an oz. of Stan's sealant and they're good to go.

They ride great and I've already put over 300 miles on them. I have no qualms about stuffing them into a corner or flying downhill. I'm going to convert my Kyserium ES's to tubeless, because the ride is that great, and not having to worry about punctures is priceless.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

under1630 said:


> ........and not having to worry about punctures is priceless.


This thought process I just do not get.
You can and will still puncture just as much as any similarly resistant tyre.
I run Conti 4 seasons. I am coming up to 2 years without a puncture.
Does not mean I wont ever have another puncture though.


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## under1630 (Feb 22, 2011)

FTR said:


> This thought process I just do not get.
> You can and will still puncture just as much as any similarly resistant tyre.
> .


I think it's because the thought process involves actually being able to successfully mount tubeless tires and then running them. It really helps if you watch Stan's video regarding installation. Try it again after watching the video, as you will really love the ride.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

under1630 said:


> I think it's because the thought process involves actually being able to successfully mount tubeless tires and then running them. It really helps if you watch Stan's video regarding installation. Try it again after watching the video, as you will really love the ride.


It does not matter how many times I watch his video.
You can and will still get flats.
tTo believe anything else is simply fantasy.

And I have successully converted many, many MTB tyres using Stans so I am not some newb to the process.
His video, with or without soapy water, will not stop my wheels from leaking at the valve stem.
Enjoy your tubeless experience.
I am not a believer.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

Maybe I am just lucky. I mounted my tubeless tires on my tubeless rims and it has work wonderfully for 9 months as advertised. To me it is easier than tubes as I don't have to screw with installing a tube. I have had the tires off a few times either adding sealant or checking if the sealant (Stans) has dried out (never has). The first time moutning the tire I needed levers to get the last 6" of tire on the rim but it has not really been needed after the tires were mounted for a while. When I read all these post I just scratch my head wondering what some of you guys are talking about as the process seems so simple to me. I am not doubting any of you. If anything I wonder if Hutchinson put out a bad batch of tires or something. To me the whole system has been very easy.


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## under1630 (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't think it's luck. I've talked to my LBS mechanics, and they've never had a problem mounting Hutchinson tubeless either. It went simply for me too, and I don't want to give up the ride and low rolling resistance these tires offer. I'm not a mechanic by any means, so it makes me wonder how some of these guys get out of bed in the morning without hurting themselves.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I admit I take some of the things I hear on internet forums with a bit of skepticism. A few people can make it sound like the world is falling apart. I have to believe the people posting they are having issues as anyone should be able to mount a tire. It is very straight forward especially if you don't have to worry about installing a tube. To me the tube installation was the tricky part making sure it didn't get pinched, etc. This leads me to believe that either the quality of the Hutchinson tire is spotty or they just had a bad batch of tires get out of the factory. Mine have been perfect (Atoms) and are wearing great. I will buy more without hesitation from my experience. It just sucks that what I feel is such a great advancement is getting a bad wrap. 
On the other hand I have no experience in converting a tubed rim with the Stans conversion kit using rims strips, sealant, and valve stems. I can understand and agree with the argument that it would not be worth the trouble. My experience is only with tubeless ready rims and tubeless tires. With the system I have you put the tire on the rim, add air, haul ass. For me it was truely that simple and has been for the past nine months.


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## pablotn (Oct 11, 2008)

>>they just had a bad batch of tires get out of the factory<<

I am hopeful that it is just that. My original pruchase of Hutch F3s from one vendor had 1 tire with sidewall leakage. I sent both back and again 1 out of the 2 had the sidewall leakage. This time not as bad as the first. I then ordered another pair from a separate vendor and both were fine and what I have on my DA 7900 rims now.

On both rims I removed the original Shimano stems and have replaced them with Stans, at the recommendation of one of our members on the forum. I have had no issue with inflating or holding air.

These tires can be pesky to install though and usually need some motivation with the use of some plastic tire levers.

pablo


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## Cato (Oct 13, 2005)

I'm also a mtn biker and run all my mtn bike wheels are tubeless. I'm thinking of converting my Bontrager Race Lite wheels to tubeless. Has anyone had any experience with these?


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I am not sure if I would convert Bontrager Race Lite wheels to tubeless (I am assuming they are NOT tubeless ready rims) unless you live in an area that has hazardous roads that cause you a bunch of flats and sealant would be a plus. The reason is to do so you would need to buy the Stans tubeless conversion kit with rim strips, valves, tires, and sealant. I am a big supporter of road tubeless based off my experience but I am not sure it is worth it to convert perfectly good tubed rims to tubeless as I don't think you will gain enough to make it worth it (this is just my opinion as I have never done the conversion). If on the other hand you are in the market for new wheels I think road tubeless wheels/rims are worth serious consideration. If you have a tubeless ready rim all you need is a tubeless tire to complete the system. Just put the tire on the rim, air it up, and ride. If I had some really nice tubed type rims I agree with others that buying some really nice tires and a high quality tubes probably makes more sense.


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## Cato (Oct 13, 2005)

I get all that...just wondering if anyone has had success or failure converting the Race Lite rims. They are not tubeless specific rims.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I am sure it would work. Go to the Stan's No Tubes website and post the question on their forum. I did that once asking the same question about my mountain bike rim and got an answer quickly from Stan's, In my case they said it wouldn't work and not to try it. Though I was disappointed in their answer at least they were honest and did not try to risk my safety for a sale.


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

pmt said:


> I've mounted Fusion2, Fusion3, and Intensive across five different types of rim. I never use soapy water, but always use plastic tire levers. Always.
> 
> I never have any problems with mounting or inflation with a floor pump. I've used both Stan's valves (mostly) but also valves cut out of old Tufo tubulars and they work fine. I always use sealant.
> 
> I've put thousands of kilometers on Road Tubeless, including many 200k brevets, and wouldn't want to use anything else.


Same experience here, but with Maxxis Padrones, Fusion 2's, and 3 different types of rims. Haven't had a flat in over two years, and only one puncture where I needed to remove the tire and apply a patch from the inside (when I arrived home).


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Cato said:


> I get all that...just wondering if anyone has had success or failure converting the Race Lite rims. They are not tubeless specific rims.


Yes I have and have ridden 200k brevets on them. They work quite nicely.


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## Cato (Oct 13, 2005)

Good to know, what tires do you use?


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Cato said:


> Good to know, what tires do you use?


Me? I've used Fusion2, Fusion3, and Intensive. They all seem to mount and run fine on any of the wheels I've put them on. Never used the Atom, though I guess I should get some for completeness.


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## Ryder321 (Sep 8, 2009)

pmt said:


> Me? I've used Fusion2, Fusion3, and Intensive. They all seem to mount and run fine on any of the wheels I've put them on. Never used the Atom, though I guess I should get some for completeness.


 My brand new Atom tubeless tires are for sale. I am unable to mount them by hand. What do you think would be a fair price?

I'd also be interested in one of your old, worn out tires. I bought into the tubeless technology with high hopes. I have, obviously, been unable to experience the wondrous ride and I'd sure like to try it. With your old used tire(s) I could get an idea.

Want to deal?


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

dude,
put them in the dryer or use tire levers and soap or whatever you need to do;
watch the Stan's video and do it exatcly as he does....

it is really easy once you practice.

i can't even mount some regular tires by hand..

remember to start opposite the valve stem...

take a day off and try again mate. you can do it...

good luck


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## oneslowmofo (Feb 29, 2004)

I had Shimano c24 7850-TL's and was running tubeless with sealant. Just sold them and went back to tubes/clinchers. I just felt the sealant thing was a pain. When it dried out, I had to strip the tire and clean the rim, which was a pain. I know you can leave it in there but after a few applications I felt the need to clean it out because it was harder to get the tire re-seated.


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

I mounted up my Intensive tire tonight on a velocity aerohead rim, didn't need a lever to get it on either, popped on pretty easily. I aired it up, it caught with a floor pump and a stem cut out of the tube (figured I didn't need it anymore, right?) then opened part of one bead (had to use a lever for that), poured in 30g of sealant, put the bead back on, soap suds all over, hand pump, and it's sitting at 100psi right now. 

I'm not saying this to brag, heck it could still be a big disaster, but the intensive tire on the aerohead rim was easy to mount w/o levers. 

I'm trying this because I keep getting flats on those wet 200K brevets with my 27mm challenge paris roubaix tires. 

But I wish they were wider...mine measures 22.3mm right now, maybe it'll stretch out a little overnight


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## twigseattle (Sep 10, 2009)

Shimano tubeless wheels hold air perfectly without sealant being added.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

twigseattle said:


> Shimano tubeless wheels hold air perfectly without sealant being added.


This is not a universal truth. For my 7850SL wheel-set, one wheel held air perfectly but the other would drop ~30psi overnight. I have heard others report the same too. I could see no air bubbles in a water tank so this was not a tire nor rim bead issue, so I presumed that the hole was on the bed of the rim and that the air bubbles would have been on the hollow inside part of the rim. I cured it with the Hutchinson sealant, and the problem has not returned. Since then I've cleaned out all trace of the sealant and run both wheels for a couple of years without sealant. I've had a couple of punctures in total, both minor, in ~5000 miles of riding on these wheels and the Fusion 2 tires. I'm on my second set of tires now.


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

What's the disadvantage of throwing a little sealant in there?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

FlatlandRoller said:


> What's the disadvantage of throwing a little sealant in there?


If that's what it takes to get an initial seal on a particular wheel and tire combination, then that's what you have to do. For the longer term the disadvantages for me are that it dries out over time (e.g. 3-6 months) leaving a messy residue and needs to replaced to give any kind of puncture protection. I just choose not to do that, mostly because of the hassle factor, so instead tube-up on the rare case that I have an issue on the road. Also the Hutchinson sealant spray is expensive - I'd likely choose Caffe Latex or Stans if there was a next time.


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

FlatlandRoller said:


> But I wish they were wider...mine measures 22.3mm right now, maybe it'll stretch out a little overnight


Gained 1mm overnight....


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Just got a small tub of Hutchinson's "Protect Max" sealant, which they claim can last up to 2 years. I have been using Hutchinson's "Fast'Air" sealant, which is expensive but works well. So far I have gotten used to uninstalling the tire, cleaning it out, and re-installing once every 6-8 months. And each time the Fast'Air sealant is still fluid. FYI, I live in the Boston area which gets cold and dry in winter. 

Next time I uninstall the setup, I'll use the Protect Max and hopefully it will really last the 2 promised years.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Thanks for the info. Is Protect Max delivered by aerosol? One problem I had with Fast'Air is that I ended up with equal parts in the tire, and all over my hands and on the outside of the wheel!


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

That's not correct unless you possibly live in an extremely arid climate. I live in Seattle and I can go well over a year and still have good sealant in the tire. I usually change it every year and a half. Been using them for about 3-4 years now.


ukbloke said:


> If that's what it takes to get an initial seal on a particular wheel and tire combination, then that's what you have to do. For the longer term the disadvantages for me are that it dries out over time *(e.g. 3-6 months)* leaving a messy residue and needs to replaced to give any kind of puncture protection. I just choose not to do that, mostly because of the hassle factor, so instead tube-up on the rare case that I have an issue on the road. Also the Hutchinson sealant spray is expensive - I'd likely choose Caffe Latex or Stans if there was a next time.


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## dougifresh1 (Aug 6, 2005)

Can you run a non ust tire tubeless?


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

After numerous flats for my wife and having to play team car support for her; plus peace of mind when she's out riding I went and ordered Stan's no tube road conversion kit with the intensive tires. Install was a breeze, bead seated quickly and she's now off riding without a worry


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*yes, BUT*



dougifresh1 said:


> Can you run a non ust tire tubeless?


you are seriously risking having a tire roll off the rim.

i know others do it, but I just can't afford to miss too many work days doing rehab if i go down.

what is 50g's for safety, not much in my book.


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## mfez (Oct 16, 2011)

I love my hutchinson's, but they are kind of a headache to install etc.


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## MintZebra (Oct 20, 2011)

Hi There. DO NOT convert your Ksyriums to tubeless! To use tubeless tires you need a wheel SPECIFICALLY designed for the Road Tubeless system. The bead must 'lock on' to the rim to create the seal. If you use a Ksyrium (or any other non RT wheelset) the tire will blow off! Those rims do not have the square bead profile that is necessary to keep a Road Tubeless tire on the rim. It is extremely dangerous.


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## MintZebra (Oct 20, 2011)

*Wheel compatibility warning!!!!!!*



under1630 said:


> I
> 
> They ride great and I've already put over 300 miles on them. I have no qualms about stuffing them into a corner or flying downhill. I'm going to convert my Kyserium ES's to tubeless, because the ride is that great, and not having to worry about punctures is priceless.


DO NOT convert your Ksyriums or any other 'Non Tubeless' wheelset to tubeless! To use tubeless tires you need a wheel SPECIFICALLY designed for the Road Tubeless system. The bead must 'lock on' to the rim to create the seal. If you use a Ksyrium (or any other non RT wheelset) the tire will blow off! Those rims do not have the square bead profile that is necessary to keep a Road Tubeless tire on the rim. It is extremely dangerous.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

MintZebra said:


> Hi There. DO NOT convert your Ksyriums to tubeless! To use tubeless tires you need a wheel SPECIFICALLY designed for the Road Tubeless system. The bead must 'lock on' to the rim to create the seal. If you use a Ksyrium (or any other non RT wheelset) the tire will blow off! Those rims do not have the square bead profile that is necessary to keep a Road Tubeless tire on the rim. It is extremely dangerous.


Totally false info. There are thousands of regular wheels converted to Road Tubeless that have travelled hundreds of thousands of kilometers in perfect safety.

The danger is using non-Road Tubeless tires; those *will* blow off. Using actual Road Tubeless tires on converted rims is fine.


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## MintZebra (Oct 20, 2011)

under1630 said:


> I recently went to Fulcrum Racing 0's with Hutchinson Fusion 3's. They mounted up w/o much difficulty after watching the Stan's video and lightly soaping the tires before install. Both wheels required the use of tire levers, but I carry them with me when I ride anyways, so no big deal. It took about 5 minutes per wheel and both aired right up with the distinctive "pop, pop" as the beads seated around 80 psi. I inflated both to 120 psi and they didn't leak at all. I removed the valve stem and put in an oz. of Stan's sealant and they're good to go.
> 
> They ride great and I've already put over 300 miles on them. I have no qualms about stuffing them into a corner or flying downhill. I'm going to convert my Kyserium ES's to tubeless, because the ride is that great, and not having to worry about punctures is priceless.





pmt said:


> Totally false info. There are thousands of regular wheels converted to Road Tubeless that have travelled hundreds of thousands of kilometers in perfect safety.
> 
> The danger is using non-Road Tubeless tires; those *will* blow off. Using actual Road Tubeless tires on converted rims is fine.


Hi, I'm not saying that people don't do it. I'm saying it's not safe. And no, it's not fine like you say. For Cyclocross, yes, it works well because of the lower pressures. But in road applications the tire does not lock onto a standard rim. Road Tubeless is a 'System' with the tire and the wheel being designed to work together. 
I have seen tires blow off of non RT wheelsets and I've seen people get badly hurt when it happens. Because it happens during high stress situations like cornering or descending.

There are plenty of Road Tubeless wheelsets on the market now. As low as $700. Shimano, Campagnolo, Fulcrum, Easton, A-Class, Corima........... So PLEASE, if you're going to use Road Tubeless, do it with the correct wheels. 
Be Safe


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

It's perfectly safe - just make sure to use a tubeless tire. Rim bead doesn't make it any safer, but a tubeless specific rim bead will hold air longer.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

MintZebra said:


> I've seen people get badly hurt when it happens. Because it happens during high stress situations like cornering or descending.


Pictures of actual events? Where they actually had real RT tires blow off? Sorry, but thousands of people have been doing it safely for years. It sounds like you're making it up.


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## MintZebra (Oct 20, 2011)

I thought I'd write a comment as an *experienced Road Tubeless user* and not just someone with an 'opinion'. 
Dispelling the myths so to speak.
I've been using Road Tubeless for almost 5 years.
I've been using Hutchinson Fusion 2, Fusion 3 and I just installed a pair of Intensive tires for the winter for better durability. I know that Maxxis, Specialized, Bontrager and IRC make Road Tubeless tires also but I haven't tried these yet. i do know a guy riding the Maxxis Padrone and he's very happy with them.

I have NEVER had to stop on the side of the road to repair a flat. The self sealing properties of the Hutchinson Road Tubeless tires is fantastic. I'm sure I've had flats but they've healed themselves without any significant air loss. This is using the tires WITHOUT any sealant in them. I've gone out into the garage and seen that I've had a flat tire overnight but it's never left me with an issue out on a ride.
I've only this year started using Hutchinson Protect'Air Max in my tires. This is a liquid sealant that installs through the valve stem. If you have non-removable valve cores it's thin enough to pass through the valve without any problems. 
Of course, there is still the chance that you'll get a flat out on the road. But it's easy to fix. Either add sealant to the tire OR.... remove the valve stem and install a standard tube to get you home! EASY! Hutchinson also makes a RT repair kit which is a glueless patch that you stick inside of the tire to fix a puncture. It easily fits into your seatbag.

The ride quality of Road Tubeless is amazing! Riding the tires with 90-100psi (depending on your weight) gives a very comfortable ride. I've read comments on here stating that rolling resistance is higher with RT. BS!!! It is actually significantly lower. A lot of rolling resistance and friction is created by the movement of a tire and tube against each other. RT eliminates this friction. You can run lower air pressure and be just as efficient as higher pressure tire and tube setups. The weight is about the same as a tire and tube. The tires weigh about 290 grams. A light tire weighs 200 gram and a tube weighs 60 grams. So a 30 gram increase in weight (with more efficient rolling resistance) is insignificant.

For installation, 'soapy water' is the best way to install the tires. But I get the impression that people on here are using a big bucket of soapy water like they're abut to wash their car! Just put a little bit of soapy water onto a sponge and run it along each bead. That's all you need.
Another tip is the valve stem.Often, the seating of the tire around the valve stem is what causes installation issues and makes it hard to install by hand. My tip is to push the valve stem up into the tire like you do when installing a traditional tube. This will allow the tire to seat and then after the tire is installed tighten the valve nut to snug it into place against the rim. with this method it's quite easy.
Carbon fiber beads only stretch about 2% versus the 7% stretch you get with a Kevlar bead so that's why the fit is tighter.
*
It is important to use ROAD TUBELESS wheels*. There are a lot of comments here from people saying they've converted Ksyruim's, Velocity's ... you name it. BUT. Just because you can seal the rim bed does not make it a Road Tubeless wheel. In MTB applications and in Cyclocross this works fine because the tire pressures are so low, usually below 35psi. But a road tire with 90+psi is a different beast. Road Tubeless is a SYSTEM. The tire and rim are designed together. Take a look at the bead of a Road Tubeless tire. You'll see that it is square and not the d shape of a standard tire. The square bead is the KEY to the safety of the system. The bead profile on a Road Tubeless rim is also square. This allows the tire to lock into the bead seats of the rim and seal correctly. You'll hear a popping or snapping sound as you inflate the tire. This is the bead locking into the rim. 
IT IS DANGEROUS to use non-Road Tubeless rims with Road Tubeless tires. The tire will not lock into a standard rim. Under high stress situations such as cornering or descending there is a chance of the tire rolling off of the rim. NOT a good situation.
There are TONS of Road Tubeless wheels on the market now so give yourself an upgrade. Shimano, Campagnolo, Fulcrum, Corima, A-Class, Easton... wheel makers are moving to Tubeless Compatible (like Campagnolo's 2 Way Fit) rim profiles as they make new wheels. I know that Reynolds is working on a Road Tubeless wheelset and so is Mad Fiber.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant but I wanted to provide *EDUCATION* vs. speculation and opinion.
Road Tubeless is definitely the future. It took 10 years for tubeless to gain acceptance in the MTB world but now it's considered to be the standard. Road Tubeless will be the future.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

MintZebra said:


> I've read comments on here stating that rolling resistance is higher with RT. BS!!! It is actually significantly lower. A lot of rolling resistance and friction is created by the movement of a tire and tube against each other.


A lot of fantasizing there. The tire and tube do *not* rub against each other, and tubeless tires with butyl sealing layers *do* have fairly high rolling resistance... this has been measured. If you reduce the pressure it gets even worse.



> IT IS DANGEROUS to use non-Road Tubeless rims with Road Tubeless tires. The tire will not lock into a standard rim. Under high stress situations such as cornering or descending there is a chance of the tire rolling off of the rim. NOT a good situation.


Are the notubes guys crazy? They don't have a problem with using tubeless tires on non-tubeless rims. The problem occurs when you try to use non-tubeless *tires* set up as tubeless.

Road Tubeless Installation


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## MintZebra (Oct 20, 2011)

rruff said:


> A lot of fantasizing there. The tire and tube do *not* rub against each other, and tubeless tires with butyl sealing layers *do* have fairly high rolling resistance... this has been measured. If you reduce the pressure it gets even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Read:

*"Use Stan's Road Tubeless bundle to convert any existing 700c clincher rims to tubeless use."*


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

bent steel said:


> Lower pressure only works to a point. If you haven't read the (in)famous article from Bicycle Quarterly about wider tires being faster, it's worth a look:
> http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/BQ64TireTest.pdf


I read it, and I'm not sure I'm buying all of it.
The author says wider tires provide better grip in corners, and then tells us it's the reason why race cars have wide tires. Such comparison is not accurate. Cars have 4 wheels, bicycles have 2. Cars don't use their sidewall for grips, bicycles do. It would be better to compare bicycles to motorcycles. For motorcycles looking to corner fast, tire width is not as important as a tall sidewall (called, high profile).


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

MintZebra said:


> . I've read comments on here stating that rolling resistance is higher with RT. BS!!! It is actually significantly lower.


Where is your data to back up your claim?

Here is some data. The fusion 2's don't fare so well. I have a hard time believing that the atom's are that much better (I have both fusion 3's and atom's).

http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf

I have been using tubeless for two years and quite enjoy them, but next year for racing season I will be trying some Vittoria open corsa's with latex tubes.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

MintZebra said:


> It is important to use ROAD TUBELESS wheels[/B]. There are a lot of comments here from people saying they've converted Ksyruim's, Velocity's ... you name it. BUT. Just because you can seal the rim bed does not make it a Road Tubeless wheel. In MTB applications and in Cyclocross this works fine because the tire pressures are so low, usually below 35psi. But a road tire with 90+psi is a different beast. Road Tubeless is a SYSTEM. The tire and rim are designed together. Take a look at the bead of a Road Tubeless tire. You'll see that it is square and not the d shape of a standard tire. The square bead is the KEY to the safety of the system. The bead profile on a Road Tubeless rim is also square. This allows the tire to lock into the bead seats of the rim and seal correctly. You'll hear a popping or snapping sound as you inflate the tire. This is the bead locking into the rim.
> IT IS DANGEROUS to use non-Road Tubeless rims with Road Tubeless tires. The tire will not lock into a standard rim. Under high stress situations such as cornering or descending there is a chance of the tire rolling off of the rim. NOT a good situation..


Nope, sorry, that's just incorrect. I'm sure you're a great guy and an experienced cyclist, but you have no credibility here. Not only do you have a low post count, but you admit you have no experience with converted rims unlike many of us on these forums.

The key that keeps the tires blowing off is the non-stretching bead, not the square shape.

So how about you spend a couple years with reasonable posts here, establish your credibility, and get some actual verifiable examples of RT users with converted rims who had blow-offs, and we'll then listen to you.


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## MintZebra (Oct 20, 2011)

Hey there, I tried to PM you this information but the board won't let me do that yet.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be controversial. and the fact that I'm 'new' to this post or board should not discount my credibility on this subject.

This thread was brought to my attention by someone who had a bad experience with the technology so I felt compelled to write this piece as education, not as a controversial posting. 

I'm just trying to give people information and help them have a safe riding experience. 

As a background, I was involved in the development of Road Tubeless from the beginning so I know what the challenges, safety factors and goals were in bringing Road Tubeless to the market.

I know that there are a lot of people using a lot of different rims to achieve the RT experience. Just like there are people using say, a Ritchey stems with Deda bars or whatever.... But the system was designed as a System and there is the chance of catastrophic failure when these compromises are made.

A standard tire system relies greatly on the outward expansion of the inner tube to keep the tire in place on the rim. RT does not have that feature and that's why it's important that the beads have a positive lock in the rim bead seat. Honestly, the fact that a lot of people haven't had catastrophic failures using RT tires on traditional rims is a factor of luck rather than the installation.

Have you ridden Road Tubeless with dedicated RT wheels? I'm sure you have or you wouldn't be posting with authority here. So you'll know that the tire actually physically clips onto the rim. It snaps into the rim and when you remove the tire you need to unseat the bead the full 360 degrees around the rim to get it to come off. Unlike a traditional tire where you just need to unseat a small portion and then the tire removes itself once the tension is relieved.

There is a lot of mis-information about Road Tubeless at all levels. Especially, it seems, at the bike shop level and these are the guys that we all rely on to give us our information. The manufacturers of Road Tubeless tires and wheel need to provide better knowledge and communication about the recommended setup and issues involved. So the education burden falls onto them.

As I said, I'm just trying to provide information about the system, it's recommendations and limitations and help users have a safe experience with the technology.

feel free to PM me if you want to talk further about this.
Cheers.


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

I have to disagree with pmt on the credibility thing/requiring several years of posts, but that's for another discussion.

I do like my tubeless (both road and mtb) but looking at the data I posted in the link indicates that there are better RR figures for both tubular and clincher tire (using latex tubes). So saying that RT has a lower RR than clinchers/tubulars is misleading. It is lower than some combinations, but there are many that are lower. And "significantly lower" is just plain false, unless you are comparing it to some real budget tires.




MintZebra said:


> . I've read comments on here stating that rolling resistance is higher with RT. BS!!! It is actually significantly lower.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

there are budget road tubeless tires?

where?lol

most of the early testing was not done with the current crop of tubeless tires, and it was done on rolling drums to simulate road use, not exactly real road conditions in my world, but that is another discussion in itself.

there is also some other data out there that shows certain road tubeless to be very competitive with any regular latex tube and tire combination one can find. According to the site you provided the IRC Formula Pro Tubeless "Top Secret" 24 had a Crr 0.00260 and a watts per wheel of 12.8 both those numbers are very, very compeitive with the others listed.
.


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

a_avery007 said:


> there are budget road tubeless tires?
> 
> where?lol
> .


You didn't read my post correctly. 



a_avery007 said:


> most of the early testing was not done with the current crop of tubeless tires,


Neither were the tires they were being tested against, they were all tires that were available at the time.



a_avery007 said:


> and it was done on rolling drums to simulate road use, not exactly real road conditions in my world


It's the best way to do many tests quickly and keep a controlled environment. 



a_avery007 said:


> there is also some other data out there that shows certain road tubeless to be very competitive with any regular latex tube and tire combination one can find.


Show me please as I'm interested, no manufacturer's data though please.



a_avery007 said:


> According to the site you provided the IRC Formula Pro Tubeless "Top Secret" 24 had a Crr 0.00260 and a watts per wheel of 12.8 both those numbers are very, very compeitive with the others listed.
> .


Sure, where can you get these tires? Last time I checked they were around 125 USD per tire from Japan. You can get two open corsas for that price plus the latex tubes. And still the open corsas score better. Better performance for half the price. I'll stick with the open corsas.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

first was a joke, which you missed bro..

second, one test means jack statistically, no matter who does it, unless it is replicated.

third, your data on vittoria evo corsa is much lower than on another test:
here is a link: Tire Rolling Resistance | Roues Artisanales

Open Corsa Evo CX
0.0039 Crr
27.1 Watt

way higher than good ole Al's test

fourth, Al tested the tubeless at 120psi and no one in their right mind rides them at that pressure, would enjoy seeing that test again at around 90psi

.

as another poster said it best"
for the "TopSecreat" you measured Crr of 0.00264, 0.00260, 0.00257 meaning a mid Crr=0.00260 . On around 80 tires of above table there are only 9 tires with a better Crr (4 tubulars, 5 clincher/latex). It means that road tubeless are already pretty competitive for racing. Due to the technical construction of tubeless (as on motor racing it is easy to control the behaviour of the tire; inner tubes makes technical control difficult) it should be just a matter of time till road tubeless are with the best.

and finally, one with tire pressure and Crr:
Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum: RR of tubeless tires... how do they compare?


like i said i ride on $h*te norcal roads and the idea of running any tire at 120psi on them at warp speed would be detrimental to my health.
this reminds me of the narrow vs wide tire argument and we see where this is going..lower Crr etc..


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

a_avery007 said:


> first was a joke, which you missed bro..


It was bad then.



a_avery007 said:


> second, one test means jack statistically, no matter who does it, unless it is replicated.


I'm sure you could replicate the results, all the information to do so is presented. If you are a doubter you should try.



a_avery007 said:


> third, your data on vittoria evo corsa is much lower than on another test:
> here is a link: Tire Rolling Resistance | Roues Artisanales


You mean higher. after a quick perusal of that link, they don't say what type of inner tube they use (unless I missed it) for the open corsa evo. It looks like they used butyl tubes for the clinchers as all the RR are higher.

Also note that that test is from 2006 , so comparing the tires from 2006 to tires from 2010 is......well.......stupid. You need to compare the same tires from the same year. The tires are clearly different. Show me some data of tires from 2010 that have higher RR values.

Any other tests?




a_avery007 said:


> fourth, Al tested the tubeless at 120psi and no one in their right mind rides them at that pressure, would enjoy seeing that test again at around 90psi


Ever ridden on a velodrome? 120 psi is quite common there. However, I do grant you that, the tubeless need to be run at lower pressures. 

But then so do the tubulars.........as a tester, one needs to draw the line somewhere. I would prefer to see the tests done at 90/100/110/120 for all tires, but that's alot of work.



a_avery007 said:


> for the "TopSecreat" you measured Crr of 0.00264, 0.00260, 0.00257 meaning a mid Crr=0.00260 . On around 80 tires of above table there are only 9 tires with a better Crr (4 tubulars, 5 clincher/latex). It means that road tubeless are already pretty competitive for racing.


No, as I said before, getting that top secret tire is a pain in the ass, and more than double the price of the clinchers that are faster.

If you go down down the list to a tire that's available/reasonably priced, there are tons of tires ahead of it (fusion's).




a_avery007 said:


> like i said i ride on $h*te norcal roads and the idea of running any tire at 120psi on them at warp speed would be detrimental to my health.
> this reminds me of the narrow vs wide tire argument and we see where this is going..lower Crr etc..


No, you didn't say which roads you ride. Some people do run at 120 psi as their roads are good, or ride on a velodrome. 

I do agree that the tests need to be done at lower pressures, but I do not think that the RT will make up the gap, as I suspect that all the other tires will also improve. I don't know anyone that rides clincher or tubulars at 120 psi either.*

*edit unless they are on the track.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

can't help you with your sense of humor.
don't want to test my tires on drums, prefer the real world, under real conditions.
velodrome is unreal smooth, as i stated clearly before, road conditions not track.
have ridden high end wheelsets with great tires from noted above, and the ride is better and faster on tubeless or just a larger diameter tire when descending-period!

ride what you like just ride...


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

I run tubeless Hutchinson fusion 3's on converted Easton wheels (aka not tubeless - no fancy locking bead). 

They ride like a dream. I love them. 

That's all.


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

a_avery007 said:


> can't help you with your sense of humor.


I didn't ask.



a_avery007 said:


> don't want to test my tires on drums, prefer the real world, under real conditions.
> .


Sure, go nuts and perform the tests. Get back to us when you have something other than anecdotal statements.



a_avery007 said:


> velodrome is unreal smooth, as i stated clearly before, road conditions not track.
> .


Surprise! There are smooth roads out there, as well as people who like to use tires on the drome/track. So the data is very important.



a_avery007 said:


> have ridden high end wheelsets with great tires from noted above, and the ride is better and faster on tubeless or just a larger diameter tire when descending-period!
> .


You have presented no evidence, so your anecdotal claims can be dismissed.




a_avery007 said:


> ride what you like just ride...


I do, tubulars, clinchers and tubeless.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

filling you in on something you may not know, but am sure women have...

tires on drums are just that, I am sure the Moto GP guys just go by drum tests too...

real smooth and roads do not go together in norcal along the coast.


yes, subjective anectdotal evidence does no mean a thing, just like your opinions too mate.

and i do to just tubeless the mostest..


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

a_avery007 said:


> filling you in on something you may not know, but am sure women have...
> .


:yawn:



a_avery007 said:


> tires on drums are just that, I am sure the Moto GP guys just go by drum tests too...
> 
> real smooth and roads do not go together in norcal along the coast.


As I said before, you are not the only cyclist on the planet.Surprise!



a_avery007 said:


> yes, subjective anectdotal evidence does no mean a thing,


Correct.



a_avery007 said:


> just like your opinions too mate.


Incorrect, my opinions are based on the test data.



a_avery007 said:


> and i do to just tubeless the mostest..


And I do tubeless, tubular, clinchers (latex/butyl) equally.


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## crank1979 (Sep 9, 2007)

What sealants are people running and how have you found them?

I've run Stans and Hutchinson ProtectAir. Both seem to work but the ProtectAir didn't dry and seal as nicely as Stans.

I want to have a go with Hutchinson FastAir but haven't been able to get it locally. How does it compare to Stans or ProtectAir?

I also rode the same route yesterday using Hutchinson Fusion 3s that I've ridden 4 times over the past 8 days using the IRC Formula Pro with X-guard tyres. It's a 35km commute down the highway, then 15km on suburban roads. Then back the same way in the afternoon. 

Puncture protection seems to be about the same, but the IRC tyres feel so much nicer.


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

I ride without sealant on the road, I just carry a spare tube. On the mtb I use stans and carry a tube.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*puleeze*



pcs2 said:


> :yawn:
> 
> 
> "Incorrect, my opinions are based on the test data."
> ...


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

a_avery007 said:


> your test data is just an opinion.


Incorrect. Data is not an opinion. 



a_avery007 said:


> one test bro.


I asked you for more, you gave none except for a test done 5 years ago with completely different tires 



a_avery007 said:


> not replicated, authenicated, validated nor reliable...
> .


Feel free to prove the data wrong, or find some other sources. Reliable? :frown2: I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Authenticated and validated? Yes, it's a huge conspiracy to bring down the RT tire industry :thumbsup:

More like it sounds like someone doesn't want to believe numbers after they bought into the system.



a_avery007 said:


> sheesh....
> .


Indeed.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*am done with this little*

tit for tat..

go ride your bike around in circles on your wonder tires and be happy in the knowledge that whatever tires you race on, that when you lose, it is just your legs, lung and heart holding your back...


go back to your basic stats class and figure out validity...

keep the rubber side down...on all three of your tires.


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

a_avery007 said:


> tit for tat..
> go ride your bike around in circles on your wonder tires and be happy in the knowledge that whatever tires you race on, that when you lose, it is just your legs, lung and heart holding your back...


You mean like everyone else? Actually when you get out of Cat3/4/5, you will find it's your team that's more important. Being the strongest/fittest doesn't guarantee a win.



a_avery007 said:


> go back to your basic stats class and figure out validity...


I would suggest a reliability course as being more useful for you, and maybe some logic and debating. Possibly anger management too, relax, it's just an internet forum.

The data is there, it's up to you to either accept it or prove it wrong. It's fine to have a belief that it's wrong, but you will be called on it.



a_avery007 said:


> keep the rubber side down...on all three of your tires.



I guess when you have nothing left to stand on it's time to be childish. :shrug:


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