# Paleo Diet For Athletes 2.0



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

I read all the other threads here about the PDFA, but I'm still going to start another thread about it.:ciappa: 
Who's tried it, who's on it, who thinks it sucks, who swears by it etc...? 
Your personal experiences would be interesting.

Me, I ride Road & MTB 5 times a week. I have a total of 1000KM on my road bike so far this season. Excercise is not a problem... it's the eating/over-eating that's the culprit. I'm a 39 y/o male. 5' 7"-185Lbs. I could stand to lose 20 Lbs.

I know, I know... HTFU.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I'm a big fan*

of the Paleo life span as well

we should all be dead by about 35


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Maybe I should have added:

*Those who have actually tried it.*


----------



## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

It's so easy a caveman can do it!
But...modern bipeds have to ask the interweb.


----------



## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

1000K this season? How long has your season been going? 3 weeks? Pretty low mileage.


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

^I live in the Great White North so that's 1000K since May.That doesn't include MTB miles or trainer time. I don't race either. I just ride for fitness and fun.


----------



## csh8428 (Aug 2, 2007)

I don't know much about "The Paleo Diet for Athletes," but if its the same as the "Paleo Diet" I know of, its trash for any type of endurance athlete. I used to do Crossfit(loved it) and they push the Paleo Diet(rag on people all the time). Its a great diet from a weight loss perspective and a reasonable one for a lifestyle, BUT due to the constraints of the amount of time it takes for preparation and the cost of such high quality food its not a good diet from a practical standpoint.

Anyway this diet *does not allow RICE, PASTA, or dairy!* Are you freakin kidding me!?!?!?!! I was an inline speedskater for 15 years prior to becoming a cyclist and could never dream of eliminating those 2 things from my diet(not a fan of cheese and milk). Rice and pasta are both very healthy and rich in carbs; which is what endurance athletes need. I laugh at all the Crossfit people when they try to do something that requires more than a 300cal effort.. Can you say bonk?!?! Because everything in that diet goes in and out of your so quick, you have nothing stored.

Currently I really only ride for fitness(do a few races), eat reasonably healthy, BUT I eat pretty much whatever I want. I try to stay away from junk food and fried stuff most of the time. If I feel like McDonalds I go get McDonalds. I try to keep stuff like that to once a week or so though. The big plus is I workout so I can enjoy my food! Being on those diets takes so much forethought, preparation, time, and money that it makes things that much more stressful.

Easiest answer to any diet question: Eat reasonably healthy and balanced. That's it! For athletes you might wanna up the carbs or fat, but again healthily. Keep soda and/or beer to weekend dinners only if you drink it on a daily basis.

Paleo diet is not a performance diet. It is a weight control diet. Take any endurance athlete who is training to improve performance and they will need a diet rich in carbs, protein, and fat from multiple sources that aren't allowed in the Paleo Diet.

Craig


----------



## oroy38 (Apr 27, 2010)

The paleo diet is rubbish for endurance athletes. Great way to bonk on a ride. If you need to burn fat and get shredded it's a good option, but as a cyclist/endurance athlete you need a constant reliable source of energy.


----------



## 3dw (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, holy misinformation Batman.

There are carb sources out there other then grain based foods...


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

3dw said:


> Wow, holy misinformation Batman.
> 
> There are carb sources out there other then grain based foods...



This^ 

The main reason I'm interested is the fact that Friel endorses this way of eating. I think he knows a thing or two about cycling???????


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Named diets*



jlandry said:


> I read all the other threads here about the PDFA, but I'm still going to start another thread about it.:ciappa:
> Who's tried it, who's on it, who thinks it sucks, who swears by it etc...?
> Your personal experiences would be interesting.


A very smart person once said "Never follow a diet that has a name."


----------



## c_kyle (May 28, 2010)

I was strict paleo, and it was decent until I started working out and running. I needed the rice and pasta that paleo for athletes allows, and it worked for lower amounts of endurance. When I started weight training more, and increased my mileage, it still wasn't enough. It could have worked, but I would have had to consume so much food, which I didn't want to do.

Now, I use the paleo philosophy, with the addition of grains and dairy. My diet now, is pretty much a normal healthy diet.


----------



## mx_599 (Mar 22, 2007)

atpjunkie said:


> of the Paleo life span as well
> 
> we should all be dead by about 35


This conclusion is not accurate


----------



## 1nf0s3c (Feb 21, 2010)

Sonomasnap said:


> 1000K this season? How long has your season been going? 3 weeks? Pretty low mileage.


Figures someone trying to get in shape gets the typical douchey holier than thou biker comment

Keep pedaling and the pounds will drop


----------



## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

I didn't start the paleo diet, but did something similar in getting rid of processed foods almost completely in favor of whole foods. I promptly dropped about 4 pounds and now weigh under 61 kilos at 41 years old and tad over 5' 8" tall.


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

1nf0s3c said:


> Figures someone trying to get in shape gets the typical douchey holier than thou biker comment
> 
> Keep pedaling and the pounds will drop


Unfortunately, I kind of expected this type of elitist answer... which is why I just let it slide.


----------



## csh8428 (Aug 2, 2007)

3dw said:


> Wow, holy misinformation Batman.
> 
> There are carb sources out there other then grain based foods...


This is true and those are the foods that are in the Paleo diet; *however*, the complex carbohydrate chains found in rice, bread, and pasta do not exist in the foods in the paleo diet. 

Endurance athletes need complex carbohydate chains in their diet. This is why I said try getting a Crossfit athlete to do something that requires more than a few hundred calories in one "event" will result in a bonk.

For example: You have a 52 mile race on Saturday. What should you have for dinner on Friday?
A: Do Paleo and eat some fish, steamed veggies, and some fruit
B: Eat Pasta with some grilled chicken and some garlic toast

Paleo Diet is weird on other things too. You can't use regular flower, but you can use almond flour.. at 20times the price. You can eat Bacon to your hearts content.



Craig


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

In case anyone's interested:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=556437&highlight=paleo


----------



## Gvl_M3 (Feb 22, 2005)

csh8428 said:


> This is true and those are the foods that are in the Paleo diet; *however*, the complex carbohydrate chains found in rice, bread, and pasta do not exist in the foods in the paleo diet.
> 
> Craig


I guess you haven't read the book or studied the diet have you?

We are specifically talking about "The Paleo Diet FOR ATHLETES."
Here is the Amazon Link



> PALEO FOR ATHLETES
> Serious athletes, however, when it comes to immediately before, during, and directly
> after workouts, need to bend the rules of the Paleo Diet a bit since we're placing
> demands on the body that were not normal for our Stone Age ancestors. Hour after
> ...


PDF Summary

I've had good success modifying my diet to be closer to the prescribed foods in the book. I've had better energy on my rides, and better recovery after.


----------



## csh8428 (Aug 2, 2007)

jlandry said:


> In case anyone's interested:
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=556437&highlight=paleo


Notice how almost everyone in that post that noticed performance gains noticed their weight loss first? 

Losing weight(given its mostly fat) will always result in better performance for endurance athletes. That being said. It looks like PDFA is different than the regular "Paleo Diet;" which is what I was referring to. If PDFA allows breads, rice, and pastas then I will be willing to admit it MAY be a reasonable diet for endurance athletes. 

I still stand by my ideas that I don't like diets that that totally eliminate food groups. I train hard so I can eat whatever I want(within reason) and enjoy my food. Training hard takes enough time and diligence on top of everything else in life that takes effort and time. Why make your diet that much more stressful and just "another part of your day" when it can be something that fulfills you, makes you feel good, and you can enjoy.

Craig


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

csh8428 said:


> Notice how almost everyone in that post that noticed performance gains noticed their weight loss first?
> 
> Losing weight(given its mostly fat) will always result in better performance for endurance athletes. That being said. It looks like PDFA is different than the regular "Paleo Diet;" which is what I was referring to. If PDFA allows breads, rice, and pastas then I will be willing to admit it MAY be a reasonable diet for endurance athletes.
> 
> ...


You have good points. We all know that everyones bodies are different. I'm working out more now than ever in my life, but since I turned 30, I can no longer eat whatever I want. For me, something has to change.


----------



## csh8428 (Aug 2, 2007)

jlandry said:


> You have good points. We all know that everyones bodies are different. I'm working out more now than ever in my life, but since I turned 30, I can no longer eat whatever I want. For me, something has to change.


 Just turned 30 too. hence my disclaimer of (within reason) in my posts. When I was a nationally competitive inline speedskater 6-8 years ago I had to take weight gainer shakes just to maintain weight! Now. I actually do have to monitor my diet... more so on serving size rather than content so much as I've always been a relatively healthy eater to to begin with. 

Once you teach your body that you don't need to finish an entire entree, 2 massive side dishes, 24oz of soda/beer, and a desert at every meal your body learns that smaller portions are just as sufficient. 

*My own personal Craig diet*: Drink mostly water. Save soda/beer for weekend dinners only. This makes that stuff taste sooo much better. *Try* to keep fast food to 1-2 meals/week. Eat smaller portion sizes at all times, unless training. *Try* to eat lots of fresh fruit and other non processed snacks. *Try* to eat/cook meals with as little frying as possible. Notice I said *TRY* in each of those instances. Making hard and fast rules just makes food no fun. If I feel like eating like crap I will as long as I haven't been eating like crap for the past several days. If I want a cookie, I eat *1* cookie. 

Craig


----------



## Dutch77 (Jan 3, 2009)

I've had good results so far with Matt Fitzgerald's "Racing weight". Great info on how to drop weight and still have enough energy to train as an endurance athlete. Lost 10 pounds so far


----------



## krishna (Jan 20, 2002)

*Misconception*

I _think_ the OP was asking about the PDA from the perspective of a way of eating NOT losing weight. Friel's claim is that this "diet" is optimal for endurance athletes performance. Again this is not a weightloss program.

I too would like to hear of any experiences. I've been following the guidelines as I could glean them from the small section from the Bible for the first time this season. Made the shift away from carbs in late winter. Now looking at upping overall protein to the recommended amount (am a vegetarian so this is a challenge). Thus far the only real difference I see is the lack of carb cravings. I doubt performance impacts would be noticeable -- if they even exist -- in this short of time. As I understand it, Friel's claim is that the perf benefit come from improved recovery / less sickness (of the cold/sore throat variety)

-K


----------



## 3dw (Jan 3, 2008)

csh8428 said:


> This is true and those are the foods that are in the Paleo diet; *however*, the complex carbohydrate chains found in rice, bread, and pasta do not exist in the foods in the paleo diet.
> 
> Endurance athletes need complex carbohydate chains in their diet. This is why I said try getting a Crossfit athlete to do something that requires more than a few hundred calories in one "event" will result in a bonk.
> 
> ...


I would go with my pre-race option C: Eat a huge piece of Salmon, sweet potato/yams, and some other green veggie of your choice. My go tos are Kale or Broccoli. Maybe some quinoa or rice depending on your glycogen refill needs. It's not a bottomless tank you can just fill up for on demand use. All you have is what you can store in your muscle tissue and liver. But that is a super simple explanation and I'm by no means an expert. Much to read on the interwebz about that topic...

I've never followed the strict "Paleo" diet as outlined in books and Crosscult folks. As mentioned before by other posters I don't trust anything labeled as a diet and they usually are too dependent on steadfast rules. I just eat in a more primal style then the typical American diet. Meat, veg, fruit and nuts... Not to loose weight as a temporary diet but as a lifestyle choice.

A great resource for primal is Marks Daily Apple http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

Tons of good info on here about Lectins and many other nastys that are prevalent in the standard American diet. I find the "Definitive Guides" on there to be really good reads. Another thing I like about his approach is the 80/20 idea mentioned througout the site. You don't have to follow anything 100%. It's almost impossible and not realistic. 

To the OP, one thing you'll find if you go down this route is that people can get pretty defensive about how they eat when the topic comes up in conversation. It's almost as if you're insulting them personally when you say that you don't eat grains or introduce ideas about nutrition that go against what they have been taught.


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Just got the book today. I'll let y'all know how it goes.


----------



## AeolusRME (Jul 17, 2009)

jlandry said:


> Just got the book today. I'll let y'all know how it goes.


So... how is is going? 

Personally, I'm trying to loose the last 20 that will get me back to the 175lb 8% body comp I used to be. Since I've been snowed in and have a hard time cranking more than 1-1.5 hrs on a trainer or rollers I figured I'd go strict Paleo for 30 days or so, then evaluate. I've got 5 months until my first "A" event so a month shouldn't kill me. Next month I'm planning on taking a 4 day trip to a warmer climate for a LSD week... probably do the paleo of Athletes those days, at least on the bike I'll carry some carbs.


----------



## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I've read the PDFA book cowritten with Freil and even though it does provide the nutrients that many grain based diets don't, I wouldn't ever try to follow it and presume my riding abilities wouldn't suffer as a result.

It seems people gravitate towards the Paleo diet because it offers what people most want and that's high meat consumption. And this is fine if like the Paleo people of the past you grap your bow or gun(in modern mans case) and go out in the woods and hunt wild game which have around 5% body fat and a high proportion of omega 3 fats from feeding on grass. Otherwise you're eating factory farm animals with as high as 35 to 40% body fat that are fed a grain based diet!

Eating factory farm animals these days is disgusting asfaic, it's not good for the animal and it's not good for me either. 

Of course any of us that are trying to maintain our weight or lose weight all know it comes down to the calories we eat. Our society mixes up the issue by bringing in all these philosophical views why we should all plunk down sides of beef on our tables and forgo that evil bowl of oat groats or even beans(because they supposedly contain anti nutrients).

Incorporating more veggies into the diet is what I would most take from the paleo diet as worthwhile as veggies pound for pound have more nutrients per calorie than just about anything else. 

Then again only a moron would do an endurance activity and cut his carbs off, when it's been shown time and again that those that take in carbs when they are riding are better able to deliver power to the pedals for extending periods of time.


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

AeolusRME said:


> So... how is is going?



I tried it and honestly, it was a pain eating so much meat. Too much thinking and preparation.
I am losing weight in a much simpler fashion... take in less calories then you expend. It's been said here so many times before. By counting calories and keeping them in deficit, add a training program, (for me it's the Time Crunched Cyclist) and it works.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 15, 2010)

I moved to a lower GI diet with much less rice and pasta and virtually no potato, and what was there in the breads etc was all wholegrain etc. I dropped loads of weight and had no issue with endurance riding, covering 4000 miles in my first year of serious cycling again, with centuries etc no issue.

The PDFA allows sugars etc as fueling for rides and for recovery - its not strict like the standard version. Most of the ill informed comments above are clearly a result of not actually reading the book.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*you are arguing*



mx_599 said:


> This conclusion is not accurate


that paleolithic man lived to around 30 by bone analysis

average life expectancy due to estimated infant mortality was 18

the only folks who seem to debate this science are those selling paleo diets


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I never tried it*



jlandry said:


> Maybe I should have added:
> 
> *Those who have actually tried it.*


but my former GF did while we were dating (among other High Protein / Low Carb diets)
I can't tell you how many times I had to actually push her home after hard tempo rides of over 50 miles
ever seen someone on a nice bike in full cycling gear get passed by an old man on a rusty 3 speed

Carbs are our (cyclists) friends


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*this sounds smart and sensible*



jlandry said:


> I tried it and honestly, it was a pain eating so much meat. Too much thinking and preparation.
> I am losing weight in a much simpler fashion... take in less calories then you expend. It's been said here so many times before. By counting calories and keeping them in deficit, add a training program, (for me it's the Time Crunched Cyclist) and it works.


besides so much meat can give you issues with blood cholesterol and all kinds of other things
Amused at the answers 'I modified my paleo to where it worked for me'
In other words they switched to a sensible diet better suited for a cyclist

you are on the right track. reduce the unhealthy fat intake, kill the empty calories (soda)
train hard and the weight will fall right off

the diet you are now following is al I ever use, the negative caloric intake diet and you can eat whatever you want


----------



## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Bigpikle said:


> I moved to a lower GI diet with much less rice and pasta and virtually no potato, and what was there in the breads etc was all wholegrain etc. I dropped loads of weight and had no issue with endurance riding, covering 4000 miles in my first year of serious cycling again, with centuries etc no issue.


Most of society has moved to lower GI/GL foods. Still though I eat wild rice, 100% whole wheat pasta, and plenty of sweet potatoes. 

There are even white pastas now that have been fortified with fiber and protein which would have a lower GI. 

Whole grain breads although delicious are often times more processed and loaded with sodium. You can avoid that stuff with whole grain rice, pasta, beans cooked at home. 

Lower GI foods tend to keep blood sugars level and cravings at a minumum, but aside from that it was the calories burnt in excess of what you were eating that led to your weight loss and not any particular diet.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 15, 2010)

heathb said:


> Most of society has moved to lower GI/GL foods. Still though I eat wild rice, 100% whole wheat pasta, and plenty of sweet potatoes.
> 
> There are even white pastas now that have been fortified with fiber and protein which would have a lower GI.
> 
> ...


yep - well aware of that!

The reduction of pasta/rice/potato etc means a big reduction of calories. I ate plates of veg, salad, fruit, grains etc and its surprising how few calories they contain. It also means a much higher % of calorie intake comes from foods with large amounts of vitamins, minerals etc that actually have some value beyond just being calories.


----------



## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

absolute misinformation in this thread regarding 'bonking' and low carb dieting. i eliminated all soft drinks, simple carbs and sugar from my diet and have no problems riding a century or more without any problems whatsoever.

you don't need to fill up on pasta to be an endurance athlete. i don't do bananas or gel packs either..i fill up a ziplock with mixed nuts or beef jerky and if i'm not drinking water, i'm grabbing a powerade ZERO from a grocery store.

so i'm telling you; yes it changes your body's fuel source (swaps fat burning for carbohydrate burning) but this has had no impact on my ability to ride 5-6 hours without any type of bonking so thats rubbish. go out and ride with me sometime.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

The Paleo diet is based on outdated science. Rapid genetic changes with the advent of agriculture make us more dissimilar to people living 5,000 years ago than they were to our Paleo ancestors. Here's a popular piece on the updated understanding of recent human genetic changes (many of which were driven by diet)

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1043228620071210


----------



## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

nyvram said:


> absolute misinformation in this thread regarding 'bonking' and low carb dieting. i eliminated all soft drinks, simple carbs and sugar from my diet and have no problems riding a century or more without any problems whatsoever.
> 
> you don't need to fill up on pasta to be an endurance athlete. i don't do bananas or gel packs either..i fill up a ziplock with mixed nuts or beef jerky and if i'm not drinking water, i'm grabbing a powerade ZERO from a grocery store.
> 
> so i'm telling you; yes it changes your body's fuel source (swaps fat burning for carbohydrate burning) but this has had no impact on my ability to ride 5-6 hours without any type of bonking so thats rubbish. go out and ride with me sometime.


This my be true if you staying within 75% of our limit, but if you're getting into 85% intensity and above you're going to want(maybe not absolutely need) something that gets processed faster than fats as fuels. 

None of the racers that I've trained and race with are seen eating beef jerky sticks or mixed nuts. Carbs are "the" fuel source for fast cyclists.
It's not all or nothing and there is overlap at all intensities as to which fuel your body uses, but as the threshold is reached your body is going to want something that takes less time to process and if my brain wants glucose, which it does, then it's going to take time to convert high fat foods to a fuel that my body can use. Why not just give it the glucose that it wants while your riding and be done with it, as opposed to having fat sloshing around in you for several hours.


----------



## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

i dont disagree with that, but was making the point that you can combine a way of eating such as low carb to help burn extra fat and not 'bonk' even if you're riding for hours. i'm tall at 6'1" so i'm constantly working to lose as much fat as possible as part of training to be as competitive as a big guy can be. it seems like i'll always struggle to keep up with the 150lb billy goats scampering up hills.


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

I don't agree or disagree that it's advantageous. I'm just saying that it's a pain in the a$$.


----------

