# Ugly Americans? NO! Ugly Europeans!



## TryingNotToGetDropped (Jan 2, 2003)

We get so much grief as being ugly americans for our lack of class, and our overall crash and tasteless behavior. Well, this tour has shown that it is really ugly europeans:

1) spitting on LA up Alpe Duez
2) screaming profanity at Jans Voigt (CSC) for being a traitor to Ulrich (b/c Voigt and Landis worked together to pull back the Ulrich break-away on a previous day in aid of their respective team leaders)
3) the Basque fans flipping off LA and Baso as they were destroying mountain stages, getting in their way, screaming in their ears, etc. (apparently pissed b/c their guy got blown out the back like a canon ball)

I am sure there are more.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*universally positive and that other thing too.........*



TryingNotToGetDropped said:


> We get so much grief as being ugly americans for our lack of class, and our overall crash and tasteless behavior. Well, this tour has shown that it is really ugly europeans:
> 
> 1) spitting on LA up Alpe Duez
> 2) screaming profanity at Jans Voigt (CSC) for being a traitor to Ulrich (b/c Voigt and Landis worked together to pull back the Ulrich break-away on a previous day in aid of their respective team leaders)
> ...




The behavior you desribe is human and has squat to do with american or european folks specifically or in general.

I have lived in both places and guess what? Rude people are everywhere.
OH MY GOD


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Only 900,000 fans showed up for the TT... bound to be a few problems when the first half of the course is open to the fans... at least 900,000 people even bothered to show up. How many people watched the Tour of Georgia?


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

*agree*

I agree with ttug there are stupid people everywhere. But Americans tend to go to Europe and expect everyone to speak English...If a European comes to America, they tend to lean English first.

It is rude to go to someone's house and expect to be pandered to...when I go back to Europe, I will do so with a language competency.


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## TryingNotToGetDropped (Jan 2, 2003)

*I don't disagree. but......*



mmoose said:


> I agree with ttug there are stupid people everywhere. But Americans tend to go to Europe and expect everyone to speak English...If a European comes to America, they tend to lean English first.
> 
> It is rude to go to someone's house and expect to be pandered to...when I go back to Europe, I will do so with a language competency.



I don't disagree, but we seem to be the only the ones that get the bad press; all I'm saying is that there should be equal time for the "ugly" moniker.


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## george_da_trog (Feb 12, 2004)

mmoose said:


> I agree with ttug there are stupid people everywhere. But Americans tend to go to Europe and expect everyone to speak English...If a European comes to America, they tend to lean English first.


I've always heard it was racists for American to expect others who come here to learn English. Wouldn't it then be racists for others to expect American to learn their language? 

What happened to multiculturalism and tollerance? What about retaining our culture?

If you think I'm joking about the racist thing, come teach school sometime and watch the drama around language acquisition.


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## Flav (Jun 24, 2004)

*We usually have it coming.*



TryingNotToGetDropped said:


> I don't disagree, but we seem to be the only the ones that get the bad press; all I'm saying is that there should be equal time for the "ugly" moniker.


It's what we get for forcing our will on the rest of the world. Props to Dubya for our popularity as of late.


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## 1adam12 (Apr 23, 2004)

filtersweep said:


> Only 900,000 fans showed up for the TT... bound to be a few problems when the first half of the course is open to the fans... at least 900,000 people even bothered to show up. How many people watched the Tour of Georgia?


News release from the Tour De Georgia:

ATLANTA, Ga. (May 25, 2004) – On this date one month ago, the 2nd edition of the Dodge Tour de Georgia concluded its 653-mile race around the state. Officials have announced that attendance for the six-day event tripled in 2004 from the previous year. Officially, 748,000 spectators enjoyed first-hand the action, color and speed of 120 of the world’s best cyclists, while becoming acquainted with the attractions and hometowns across the state of Georgia. Lance Armstrong, of the U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling team, won the 2nd annual stage race, held April 20 to 25. 

While this doesn't match the attendance at the TT, you are comparing apples to oranges. How long has the Tour De France been raced, how well known is this race, now how long has the TDG been raced, how well known is this race? It doesn't seem to match.. I really hope the TDG continues to grow. 
As for the rude fans they are everywhere however when it starts to place athletes and others in danger that is another issue all together (look at Yankee stadium incidents alone not to mention Nascar and there are others I can't think of right off). One thing to remember as a group of fans we all know that Americans are nowhere near as compassionate about our sports as other Countries.

Adam


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## denversean (Jun 14, 2004)

It's very easy to spot Americans when you're in a foreign country. I'm sure that 95% of US travelers are well behaved, but I have seen some of the rudest behavior. In Mexico, we are at our worst and I have a feeling it's due to the US overall respect for wealth and the fact that much of our television programming is now centered around wealthy people treating others with utter disrespect.

In Europe, I just notice Americans by their clothing and their loud voices. It always seems like the American couples are the loudest people in the restaurant. When they aren't understood, they just talk louder, thinking that it will somehow enhance the translation! The don't give up seats on the trolley for women or elderly. The best of all time though, was when some guy in a coffee bar in Milan asked me if I knew where a Starbucks was - the coffee bar capital of the world and you want a dishwater capuccino from Starbucks?!?!?! The best place to 'American Watch' is in an Asian country (Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan). They are the marked minority so they tend to be far more respectful.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Is there Pizza Hut in Italy?


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Sounds like a few drunk Yankee fans when the Red Sox come into town.


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

denversean said:


> In Europe, I just notice Americans by their clothing and their loud voices. It always seems like the American couples are the loudest people in the restaurant. When they aren't understood, they just talk louder, thinking that it will somehow enhance the translation! The don't give up seats on the trolley for women or elderly. The best of all time though, was when some guy in a coffee bar in Milan asked me if I knew where a Starbucks was - the coffee bar capital of the world and you want a dishwater capuccino from Starbucks?!?!?! The best place to 'American Watch' is in an Asian country (Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan). They are the marked minority so they tend to be far more respectful.


I know we are drifting off topic a little, but I need to issue a big "amen brother" to your post. I recently came back from Italy. While there I learned as much Italian as possible and sought out authentic cuisine and establishments, and generally respected their culture. I even drove fast and furious to boot. I was astonished at some of the things I saw Americans do. I wanted to wear a shirt with a canadian flag on it. 

My story: I overheard an American explaining how she had to send back her coffee five times until the "guy behind the counter" figured out how to make an iced cappuccino. Arrrggghhh! That guy behind the counter is a barista and is respected by Italians for the fine art of making café. The whole thing made my skin crawl, especially since they make such good coffee over there.


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## T-Doc (Apr 4, 2002)

*Lol!*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> Sounds like a few drunk Yankee fans when the Red Sox come into town.


Again Mr. Grumpy hits the nail on the head...I went to a Red Sox- Yankees game last year at Fenway...they were selling "Jeter Sucks" and "Yankees Suck" on every street corner! Saw numerous rowdies hauled off in cuffs. Sports fans are sports fans, no matter the nationality. They often drink too much beer and go overboard in their enthusiasm...the only difference is in pro cycling, the fans have waaayyyy too much access to the players. I believe Kloden's forearm to the rowdy flag carrier yesterday will become the norm...these guys hafta do something to protect themselves.


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## BuenosAires (Apr 3, 2004)

mmoose said:


> I agree with ttug there are stupid people everywhere. But Americans tend to go to Europe and expect everyone to speak English...If a European comes to America, they tend to lean English first.
> 
> It is rude to go to someone's house and expect to be pandered to...when I go back to Europe, I will do so with a language competency.


Well, for one thing, most people in Europe speak English as a second Language. If you're polite, i find a lot of times they like to practice their English. If i had to learn every language in Europe before i travelled, it'd be a long time before i went back.
I guess i should learn German, French, Italian, Spanish, and Dutch before i take my next vacation. I don't expect to be pandered to, and i do my best to try and speak a little of the language, but you can't speak them all.....


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

*Not me*



Duane Gran said:


> I know we are drifting off topic a little, but I need to issue a big "amen brother" to your post. I recently came back from Italy. While there I learned as much Italian as possible and sought out authentic cuisine and establishments, and generally respected their culture. I even drove fast and furious to boot. I was astonished at some of the things I saw Americans do. I wanted to wear a shirt with a canadian flag on it.
> 
> My story: I overheard an American explaining how she had to send back her coffee five times until the "guy behind the counter" figured out how to make an iced cappuccino. Arrrggghhh! That guy behind the counter is a barista and is respected by Italians for the fine art of making café. The whole thing made my skin crawl, especially since they make such good coffee over there.



Its always other Americans right, never you that acts with such boorish behavour. You're probably one of those Americans that sits in another country and spots an American doing something garish and say to your companion "they're probably from the midwest".


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Might as well get this out of the way*

The next phase of this argument will fall into the did you see how they had their (insert country name) flags all over the place. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRINNNNNNNNG

Look folks, Mr Grumpy has the gist of this whole thing. Sports fans can be rude in any country. Try a Manchester United game if you want to see a sea of hatred. When the folks from York arrive, they are from England, but what they speak is not English. Sorry.

As far as oh gee, its so hard to learn all those languages, thats a crock of [email protected] If you speak French and/or German and have a working knowledge of English, most of Europe will be open to you. You dont have to be fluent and a linguist. Just think of the basics. You need a room to rent, food, booze,money and a few great one night stands to get you through it. This does not require a scholars vocabulary.

Odds are and the last I recall, these are universal NEEDS

Now, off to the road. Ta ta


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## njmtbbg (Aug 19, 2003)

*Relax Flav*



Flav said:


> It's what we get for forcing our will on the rest of the world. Props to Dubya for our popularity as of late.


W. has nothing to do with the boorish behavior of the German fans. But hey I'm sure that we'd much rather have Bill "Bring On The Interns But Don't I Won't Worry About Al-Qaeda Festering" Clinton leading us? The only thing that George W. has done since he has been in office has been to ask the UN to follow through on their word. 

All those UN resolutions and all that talk did NOTHING to eliminate the threat of Saddam Hussein (and you're kidding yourself if you don't think he was a threat). All the diplomacy of the BC years enabled hatred to fester in the Middle East and what did we get for it? 3,000 dead...

I'm getting a little sick and tired of every armchair pundit laying blame on W. It's about time America reasserted themselves as a world power, and do you know why, because the world expects us to lead. When a monsoon lands in the middle of Outer Nowhere which country sends the most aid? US. When a military force is needed to end a genocide (Kosovo) who gets the job done? US. When the world needs to resist a Totalitarian Regime bent on world domination (USSR - Read your history books) who stands up to them with military might and resolution? US. Which nation IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD has taken the strongest stand for individual rights and liberties and has sacrificed the most to keep those liberties intact? US. Is America perfect? Far from it. But does America strive for the ideal? Yes.....

And I'm proud to have a president who has a little moral clarity and isn't afraid to tell the world where he stands. Unlike good old boy BC who would tell you whatever you wanted to hear in order for you to think he was the 'darn nicest guy in the world'. He was getting oral sex from interns when those Al-Qaeda *******s were looking over diagrams of planes. And we're indignant that W. asks the UN to follow through on their word. Last time I checked Iraqis were governing Iraq.

Answer these three questions before you reply?
1) What is your primary source of news?
If the answer is the general media, answer this question?
2) What is the political leaning of the general media?
Liberal and Democrat..If you accept that, answer this question:
3) Do you think the general media wants to give George W. a fair shake.

Of course not....

You sound like a smart guy. Do the math.

B.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

*in before the lock/move...again!*

wow dude. you really told him...and I like how the rambling manifesto's title was <b><i>relax</b></i>. brilliant!


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## pugdog1 (Mar 23, 2004)

I need to add "American ignorance" and show my true colors.

THE FRENCH SUCK! -enough said
The GERMANS ARE MENTALLY WEAK! -need I quote history?


Please feel free to hate my american ass. 
Dont hide how you feel!


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## contractk (Jul 23, 2004)

*Well its a close call for you Americans*

I had the fortunate chance to see Lance win in Paris in 02. During the race a young french girl climbed up on to the subway entrance where I was standing with my wife and two men from Chicago. The older of the two men snapped and pushed her down saying that this was his subway entrance. The police came buy to question him, I just watched the race (and yes showing off my Canadian flag patch) not getting involved (and yes just like in Iraq).

Cheers


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## maddog (Feb 26, 2004)

mmoose said:


> I agree with ttug there are stupid people everywhere. But Americans tend to go to Europe and expect everyone to speak English...If a European comes to America, they tend to lean English first.
> 
> It is rude to go to someone's house and expect to be pandered to...when I go back to Europe, I will do so with a language competency.


For the most part, I agree with your post. As much as it helps to have language competency, I don't think it should be expected, though. I think that it is important to learn some basic phrases to get by (and to earn a little respect from your hosts). The most important things, though, are to be patient, respectful, and thankful when people go out of their way to help you.


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## carlos (May 26, 2004)

off course its not about the country, its about the humanity. but call a bunch of *******s like those "fans" is way wrong. true fans wont do that kind of stupid act.


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

Duane Gran said:


> I know we are drifting off topic a little, but I need to issue a big "amen brother" to your post. I recently came back from Italy. While there I learned as much Italian as possible and sought out authentic cuisine and establishments, and generally respected their culture. I even drove fast and furious to boot. I was astonished at some of the things I saw Americans do. I wanted to wear a shirt with a canadian flag on it.
> 
> My story: I overheard an American explaining how she had to send back her coffee five times until the "guy behind the counter" figured out how to make an iced cappuccino. Arrrggghhh! That guy behind the counter is a barista and is respected by Italians for the fine art of making café. The whole thing made my skin crawl, especially since they make such good coffee over there.


Agreed-the utter lack of respect for real Italian espresso by Americans is disgusting-they think they know what coffee is because they get Crappachino's at Starbucks! I have spent quite a bit of time as a barista in an Italian-style coffee shop here in the States (shop has a LM Linea machine, roast our own beans, several hundred practice shots pulled before you can serve a customer, and also taught latte art) and I get so annoyed when a customer comes in asking for a macchiatto (I know that they probably want a "Starbucks" macchiato (tub of lard+sugar), but I serve them a real macchiato anyways-2 shots of espresso marked with about 1oz of milk foam). I love the response "hey, I ordered a macchiato" and I tell them "yes, this your macchiato!". BTW, if you ask for a Latte in Italy, you get a glass of milk-people only drink those foo-fooey milk drinks here in the USA because most baristas (if they can even call themselves that, that is like calling a french-fry machine guy at McDonalds a Chef) can't and have even no idea how to pull a decent shot. It is bad enough here in the States, but to take that attitude to central Italy (where every coffee shop rivals the BEST we have to offer in the USA (Hines Public Market, Vivace, Zoka, Stumptown) and baristas are true professionals, just like you see in the above establishments) is just plain ignorant and insulting. 

That is why I get annoyed at the old, fat lady and their "Starbucks" macchiato requests-hey, this ain't Starbucks! If you wan't McDonalds quality, don't show up at French Laundry and ask for a Big-Mac style burger!

BTW, if you want a picture of a very well-done macchiato, check out this link and scroll to the bottom:


http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides/frothingguide/advancedguide


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

pugdog1 said:


> I need to add "American ignorance" and show my true colors.
> 
> THE FRENCH SUCK! -enough said
> The GERMANS ARE MENTALLY WEAK! -need I quote history?
> ...



Then why are following the Tour de FRANCE???? Why not post on a Race Across America Board?


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## Flav (Jun 24, 2004)

*Yawn....*



njmtbbg said:


> But hey I'm sure that we'd much rather have Bill "Bring On The Interns But Don't I Won't Worry About Al-Qaeda Festering" Clinton leading us?


At least Clinton was only screwing his interns. 

Debate me at the poll in November, not here. Until then, let's just ride our bikes.


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## njmtbbg (Aug 19, 2003)

*Fair enough*



Flav said:


> At least Clinton was only screwing his interns.
> 
> Debate me at the poll in November, not here. Until then, let's just ride our bikes.


Sorry if I jumped all over your comment before. You were on the receiving end of a wee bit of frustration on my part. It's good that we have bikes to ride. 

All the best,

B.


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## Cervelo-er (Apr 10, 2004)

*So, so true...but outside the NW...its another story*

Happy to see a fellow Husky on the boards here. After working at Zoka, spending time at Hines, Stumptown...but never Vivace, dude's a pompass ass if you ask me...coffee in the northwest is on such a different level from anywhere else in the world, it's hard to even explain to anyone who's not experienced it themselves. I'm down in San Diego now and have given up on ordering a capp and usually a latte. Even at Pete's if I order a capp it just means they'll give me the same amount of milk as a latte, but burnt to hell with giant bubbles. Sometimes they get the foam right on the latte, but even then the shots are terrible. It takes so little to learn how to make truly great coffee. The amazing thing is how unapproachable most baristas are when you try to give them tips (other than money) that would guarantee infamy in the local coffee scene. I've often thought about starting a side business training baristas, but would they be receptive to it? I usually think not, especially in SoCal where most customers ARE just looking for a foo-foo sugary drink. I'd like to see the numbers in Calif. from Starbucks of how many crappacino frozen drinks they sell vs. even their sub-par hot drinks. There are as many Starbucks down here as AM/PM's. And they all look the same on the inside. A/C cranked to the max and depressing music to make you think you're in Seattle...all they need to add are some auto-drip hoses on the outside windows to give the true aura of a Seattle coffee shop...maybe I should call Howard with that one. But I won't go into ranting about Starbucks too much, they serve a purpose in life and fit the people who go there...I more get aggrevated by so-called independent specialty stores who don't take the time to learn how to make good coffee and wonder why people just go to Starbucks instead! At least Starbucks is consistent.

I guess the one anomaly in Calif. is Cafe Trieste in North Beach. Had a phenomenal cup there a month ago.

And luckily I'll be heading back to the NW in a few months and won't have to suffer through this anymore.

Til then it's french press at home and beans shipped in from Portland.

I'm also going to see the Huskies play Notre Dame in Sept...think I should take the bike? Just picked up a purple Rock Lobster with gold lettering...subconscious obsessions take a while to die.


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