# toes up or down?



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

strange question, but i am looking at improving pedal stroke and have been playing with the position of my toe and heel. is there a "right" way? sometimes i notice my toes are pointed down slightly, so i adjust them so that they are either parallel to the pavement or slightly up.

someone once told me she was taught to pretend she is trying to scrape gum off the bottom of her heel. 

any help would be appreciated.

ps: i do ride clipless.


----------



## khill (Mar 4, 2004)

*Pedal stroke and foot position*

The only person who can define a "correct" foot position during the pedal stroke is you. Each person is different and various schools of thought have developed over the years.

The most recent trend is to keep your heels down while you're pedaling. I believe this is supposed to prevent engagement of the calf muscles which should conserve enegry and provide more efficient pedal dynamics. This is similar to your friend's advice (which is often attributed to Lemond) to scrape gum off your heel.

However, lots of people have had success with a toes-down position and ankling. Jacques Anquetil was famous for this type of stroke and won all three grand tours pedaling that way.

Unless you have a reason to obsess about extracting the absolute maximum performance from your pedal stroke, just do what comes naturally. When I ride, I actually try to vary my pedal stroke to keep my legs fresh and use different muscle groups.

- khill


----------



## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Up, down and flat.
Depending on what you're doing.
When spinning over 100 rpm, my toes are usually down. While climbing at a slower cadence, my toes are up. At 85-95 rpm, my feet are usually flat.
There aren't any hard and fast rules. Try different things, and see what works for you.


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

*thanks guys*

i was alternating between toes up/toes down thinking it might help prevent muscle fatigue. looks like i was on the right path.


----------



## RodeRash (May 18, 2005)

Tour de France is on OLN this month, hours and hours each day. You can get a lot of close up shots of riders and their pedal cadence. If your TV allows you a slow motion feature you can use that, but you don't really need it. 

Just relax and pedal. As you get better at riding, you'll get better at spinning. Most casual riders do about 45 RPM or even slower. A good tourist rider does about 60 RPM, and a racer does 90 -110 depending on a lot of stylistic things about the rider and the terrain. 

But if you're riding loose, spinning easy and relaxed your toes will do what they need to do. Don't worry about it. You'll sort out your own pedaling form as part of your riding improvement.


----------



## Dave_Stohler (Jan 22, 2004)

The great Jaques Anqueteuil used to have an unusual pedalstroke where he lifted his heel on the upstroke. Dozens of experts said that this was no help, but he kept winning races that way. I tried doing it and all I got was calf cramps. Use whatever works for yourself.


----------



## The Flash (May 6, 2002)

I'm a toes down, heels up rider. No problem holding a high cadence at all, and my position stays the same no matter what cadence I am at. They will flatten a bit when I am sprinting though. Interestingly enough, I have HUGE legs compared to those I ride with. 26" quads and 18" calves. My buddies think that my calves are that big because of my foot position, but my calves never get tired while I ride.

The easy advice is this....don't mess up what you do naturally unless you are doing something so bad as to cause yourself pain.....

SB


----------



## Timmons (Jul 6, 2005)

I must say that I'm shocked at the advice offered on foot position. If you're commuting to work and don't care about top performance, then foot position doesn't matter. If you're looking to ride your best, then foot position absolutely does matter, and I have yet to meet a rider who's ever 'naturally' learned how to spin.

Spinning = keeping constant pressure on your chain. Most people will mash down on the font and ignore the remaining 75% of the stroke. Proper footwork and proper usage of the leg will keep pressure on the pedal all the way around. That is the most effective method to put power to the rear wheel.

Your foot work will be as follows:
Top of the stroke = foot will be parrallel with horizon. (with the knee forward it will 'feel' like you're raising your toe.)
Front of stroke = heels will be up a few degrees above horizon level.
Bottom of stroke heel will gain angle to keep the ball of the foot closer to the front wheel hub than the pedal axis. Picture a 10=15 degree angle here. You have to grip it to be able to push it back.
The back of the pedal stroke will have the heel high at a 45 degree angle. Pull up with your knee here, let your ankle relax and it will find the right position.

I am a jumper, I come from volleyball. I rode the first 4000 miles on my bike mashing on the front (downstroke) only. Then I learned about spinning from a pro- trainer and now I'm working on it. 2000 miles later, I still don't have it down, but I'm riding a LOT better. I used to get dropped by my club riders and now I am in the top five over the hills. 

Spinning works, but it is work to learn as most everything else we do with our legs involves mashing down only. Pulling up is not a natural move, nor is it something taht you'll learn by just adding miles.

As you go through a full pedal stroke spinning, it will feel like your feet are fluttering, it activates your lower legs and hamstrings, so if yours are undeveloped (like mine, I had no hamstrings!, or so the ladies would mention.) your muscles will burn with the stroke change. Keep working it. Spinning engages all muscle groups in your legs, upper and lower, front and back, which will allow you to ride faster and further when your deficient muscle group are trained up to your over developed quads.

Watch the tour and PAY SPECIFIC attention to their footwork. Watch the best riders and observe how supple their ankles apply during a full stroke.

Put some miles into it. If you want to, go to a professional trainer and have him put you on a spin scan.

I could go on about this for hours, but I'll leave it at this. If you're not spinning you're not riding at your maximum potential.


----------



## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

Different pedal strokes for different folks.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Timmons said:


> Most people will mash down on the font and ignore the remaining 75% of the stroke.


If by "most people" you mean elite national class riders, you're absolutely correct. That's what separates the truly elite from the merely very good. See 
http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coyle91.pdf


----------



## Timmons (Jul 6, 2005)

asgelle said:


> If by "most people" you mean elite national class riders, you're absolutely correct. That's what separates the truly elite from the merely very good. See
> http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coyle91.pdf



Asgelle,

I perused your link and don't have time to summarize the findings or get into the depths or accuracy of the equations. If you could summarize the doc for me, that would be great. I assume though that what you're trying to tell me is that spinning is not the answer and that the top riders are mashers.


----------



## Timmons (Jul 6, 2005)

Ok, I just read a little further through your link. It looks like your article is explaining that cyclists with different types of muscle fiber can generate different power output. and that elite riders have a higher Lactate Threshold. I would agree with both of those. I don't understand what that has to do with my explanation of how a spinning technique is more effective than a mashing technique. Could you please explain.

Thanks...


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Timmons said:


> Asgelle,
> 
> I perused your link and don't have time to summarize the findings or get into the depths or accuracy of the equations. If you could summarize the doc for me, that would be great. I assume though that what you're trying to tell me is that spinning is not the answer and that the top riders are mashers.


Riders were separated into 2 groups: elite-national class" and "good-state class". In addition to the greater absolute power produced, group 1 was distinguished from group 2 by higher force on the downstroke and lower (propulsive) force on the upstroke even when riding at the same power as group 2. In other words better riders stomp harder. Take a look at Figs. 5 and 7.

And it's not my article, it's Ed Coyle's.


----------

