# Student looks for information about Doping



## DSHS_Sportstudent (Jul 31, 2014)

Hey Community,

I am a sportsstudent from germany. I am working for my Master Thesis about "Distribution of doping-related knowledge in the internet".

As far as I know now, there is no german cycling forum, where they discuss this topic as well, so I found this one now.

It would really help me if you could answer a few questions:

1) Are some of you taking performance-enhancing drugs that are forbidden by WADA? Why do you do that/what would you like to achieve by taking drugs?
(I totally DONT want to tell you that you are doing something bad, I just want to get to know something about your motivation!)

2) Where do you get your information about this topic/drugs/side effects?

3) Some german bodybuilders who consume steroids need to buy them in the USA, because they are forbidden in Germany. They often buy it via internet shops.
How do you get your stuff?

4) I would like to discuss something: If doping wasn't illegal - let's say to give everybody same chances and access to doping drugs and to save money but not controlling it - do you think more people would do more doping, even the side effects could cost their lives?

I am really excited how people from other countries look at those questions and would be really happy if you spent some of your ideas and thoughts to my thread.

Kind regards


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

This is a doping forum where the topic is discussed by cycling enthusiasts. 

I think you might be under the impression that we all personally dope, based on some of the questions you posted.

As a college student doing research, I would assume your instructor is looking for you to do your own research from credible sources you can actually cite to form your own conclusions. Asking strangers on a forum seems to be a lazy way out.

You may wish to post your questions here:

Team Sky | Contact Us


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

This forum, of course, discusses the ills of doping, and not how to do it.

You could try an anonymous survey at a large racing event, but I doubt many people would fill it out accurately as it is a very tightly kept secret, especially when getting caught can be very harmful to the athletes careers.

I have no idea how a rider and physician decides things like doses, but many drugs such as EPO has therapeutic uses, I think, so the athletes probably have goals, and use a portion of the therapeutic doses to start with. Unfortunately using drugs beyond their intended use, the actual research studies likely will be few and far between.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

DSHS_Sportstudent said:


> 3) Some german bodybuilders who consume steroids need to buy them in the USA, because they are forbidden in Germany. They often buy it via internet shops.


This made me chuckle. While stationed overseas (early 2000's), I lifted weights. Several guys I worked with took leave and went to Germany to buy steroids.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Your paper should discuss how difficult it is to get any straight answers on the internet regarding doping -- if guys are doing it they do not want to expose themselves as cheats or reveal their secrets.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I personally swear by German performance enhancers - my favorites are Sauerkraut and Wiener Schnitzel. It's difficult to sneak a schnitzel out of your back jersey pocket though without anyone noticing, and I have to be careful a random dog doesn't jump up and snatch it from my dope-hungry hands. I used to use Ritter Sport but their inflexible square dosing made use difficult, and something must have been wrong with the formulation because it tended to turn into a liquid rather readily. Same problem with a suppository I tried (Kinder something...). I do appreciate the squeeze tube for the Thomy stuff, but why does it only come in TDF yellow?


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## DSHS_Sportstudent (Jul 31, 2014)

Retro Grouch said:


> This is a doping forum where the topic is discussed by cycling enthusiasts.
> 
> I think you might be under the impression that we all personally dope, based on some of the questions you posted.





CliffordK said:


> This forum, of course, discusses the ills of doping, and not how to do it.


I understand your points. Since the way athletes speak about this topic is different in every forum, may I ask another question:
You seem to be active in the part of this forum, where you can discuss about doping. Why? Whats interesting for you about this topic?



Retro Grouch said:


> As a college student doing research, I would assume your instructor is looking for you to do your own research from credible sources you can actually cite to form your own conclusions. Asking strangers on a forum seems to be a lazy way out.
> 
> You may wish to post your questions here:
> 
> Team Sky | Contact Us





CliffordK said:


> You could try an anonymous survey at a large racing event, but I doubt many people would fill it out accurately as it is a very tightly kept secret, especially when getting caught can be very harmful to the athletes careers.


My instructor has no idea what I am doing  But as I told you my topic is ""Distribution of doping-related knowledge in the internet". So forums should be one keysource that I am looking at, don't you think so? I don't want to know IF people are doping. I want to look where they get their information about that.

There is one study saying that main soruces of information are physicians, training- colleagues and pertinent literature. Maybe I can bring "new light" to the role of internet and forums.
To do a bigger research might be one method to get to know what people think about that, but can't be done in time.
But I will look at this TeamSky- link you posted, maybe it can help me out.



Local Hero said:


> Your paper should discuss how difficult it is to get any straight answers on the internet regarding doping -- if guys are doing it they do not want to expose themselves as cheats or reveal their secrets.


You are right, this is one point of my paper. But it is totally different. I found 2 german bodybuilding forums where they discuss everything. They tell you what they are taking in what doses at the moment, what they plan to take next and they are answering questions for "newbies" (although they often tell you to NOT take steroids. But if one really wants to, they tell you how to do it properly). Only dealing is strictly forbidden.
Since I didn't find any german rider-forum where this topic is discussed I found your forum here.

Maybe I could ask a more general question:
Do you think it is important for riders to have a platform like this forum where they can discuss this topic?
What do you think would happen, if this topic would be excluded from this forum (like in all german forums I found).


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Umh, this is actually the forum where we argue if Lance Armstrong is the anti-Christ or a misunderstood victim? Then we argue if he should keep his TdF titles. Well, that is, until we call each other names and the moderator closes the thread. 

We don't really talk much about "doping." We certainly don't give each other tips on how to dope. Heck, we can't even say v i a g r a. 

Perhaps the laziness, err... language barrier kept you from reading a little on this forum, to understand what it actually is, before you posted. So how about you read a little now, instead of asking questions like "well, what do you talk about, then?"


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

Just go to wikipedia. It will tell you whatever you want to know...


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

DSHS_Sportstudent said:


> You are right, this is one point of my paper. But it is totally different. I found 2 german bodybuilding forums where they discuss everything. They tell you what they are taking in what doses at the moment, what they plan to take next and they are answering questions for "newbies" (although they often tell you to NOT take steroids. But if one really wants to, they tell you how to do it properly). Only dealing is strictly forbidden.
> Since I didn't find any german rider-forum where this topic is discussed I found your forum here.


Bodybuilding may be unique in the "sports". Is it considered a sport? Anyway, apparently anabolic steroids aren't necessarly legal in professional bodybuilding, but the authorities have chosen to look the other way. Are some Hollywood actors also doping?

Competitive Weightlifting may be different, and several Olympic weightlifters have been snagged for doping.

Doping may not even be prohibited in politics, and the Governator apparently doped with anabolic steroids. Oh, he was an Austrian, is that bad?

As far as competitive sports such as bicycling, the use of anabolic steroids, and blood erythrocyte concentrating methods is strictly forbidden, and has been for decades, however, apparently up until recently there was a culture of attempting to evade the rules.


DSHS_Sportstudent said:


> Maybe I could ask a more general question:
> Do you think it is important for riders to have a platform like this forum where they can discuss this topic?
> What do you think would happen, if this topic would be excluded from this forum (like in all german forums I found).


As several people have mentioned, the purpose of this sub-forum is not to discuss how to dope, or how to evade detection, but rather to give a forum to discuss the stupidity of some athletes who have been caught, or perhaps to discuss whether some athlete's performance should require greater scrutiny.

The advantage of having a separate sub-forum is that it simply keeps the discussions separated from other bicycling topics such as frame-building or wheel-building. And, I suppose if somebody wants to dig up old discussions about certain athletes doping, this is the place to find them.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

yes we discuss doping in professional sport. Mostly cycling. There is a partial exchange of ideas but some folks let their personal bias cloud a good discussion.

I think a more interesting topic would be dope knowledge of cycling fans vs other sports
Here in America, everyone thinks cycling is the most drug riddled sport known. They ignore the fact that the cortisone treatments their favorite athletes get as standard treatment are illegal in cycling. They ignore the fact that most of their sports have no out of season testing, and some don't even test for HgH yet.

On a European angle you could study the media explosion of a doping bust when they think it is about cycling and then how quick the story dies when it is revealed the majority of clients are football (soccer) players and other non cycling athletes


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

DSHS_Sportstudent said:


> Hey Community,
> 
> I am a sportsstudent from germany. I am working for my Master Thesis about "Distribution of doping-related knowledge in the internet".
> 
> ...


Joe Papp is your guy for internet dope, but he got busted.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

atpjunkie said:


> Here in America, everyone thinks cycling is the most drug riddled sport known.


I don't believe that is true, in part because bicycling is largely forgotten except perhaps a few weeks a year during the TDF.

A couple of high profile cases brought the sport into the spotlights. Baseball caught the nation's attention a few years ago with the big home-run hitters getting busted, and a congressional inquiry. 

No doubt there is another big scandal somewhere else just around the corner.

Personally I think there needs to be more effort across the board to curb steroid use during training, across all sports. One can do so much on game day, but it always helps to grow monstrous muscles during the off-season. 

My guess is that is what snagged Armstrong. Post cancer therapy, he chose to regain some of his strength using anabolic steroids... which were very effective. So, rather than letting Mother Nature take it's course, he decided to keep with the doping, and even expand its use to EPO, and other forms of drug use.

As far as the most drug riddled sport... I'd have to put it as bodybuilding and competitive weightlifting.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

In the US, I would have to say that the most drug riddled sport is football. Starting in high school. Anabolics and HGH. And the NFL's drug policy is a joke. First time offense, a 4 game suspension. A quarter of a season.

World wide? Probably soccer. As far as sheer numbers of people doing it. Track and field, too. How confident should we be about how out of competition testing is done in places like Jamaica and Kenya, where excellence in the sprints and distance events are those nation's sole claim to sports excellence, and a matter of national pride? In any event, only the top 50 athletes world-wide in any given IAAF event are subject to OOC testing. Most track athletes have their bio passports run once a year at the Worlds. Only a relative handful of middle and long distance runners and race walkers have their passports run more often.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

my point being you can watch a football or baseball game, or listen to sports talk and the QB or pitcher getting a cortisone injection for their bad elbow is talked about openly. A player has a hairline fracture and the announcers talk about the trainers 'giving them something' to help play through the pain. Things that carry 2 year suspensions in cycling are legal in most pro leagues and talked about freely. No one thinks its doping, but that damn cycling is just riddled with drugs. BAsketball right now is offering to take Pot off the testing list if they can add HGH. They don't test for HGH in the NBA right now, that's what a strong players Union does. No out of season testing means athletes can do 1-3 cycles of whatever and have time to clean up before testing.
mpre53, agree about football. The doping starts young, cause these kids wind up in Gyms w/ bodybuilding dopers and because we have too many parents and coaches who teach "Win at all cost" from the pee wees on up


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

atpjunkie said:


> my point being you can watch a football or baseball game, or listen to sports talk and the QB or pitcher getting a cortisone injection for their bad elbow is talked about openly. A player has a hairline fracture and the announcers talk about the trainers 'giving them something' to help play through the pain. Things that carry 2 year suspensions in cycling are legal in most pro leagues and talked about freely.


Corticosteroids and anabolic steroids are completely different drugs/hormones. 

Here is what I see on the WADA List.


> *S9. Glucocorticosteroids*
> 
> The systemic use of glucocorticosteroids (often called “steroids” by the prescriber) is prohibited in-competition. This includes oral intake (like a Medrol Dose Pak), a systemic injection by IV or intramuscular (IM), or by rectal routes.
> 
> ...


There is a process for acquiring a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE). Since there would be some systemic absorption of the corticosteroids if injected into joints, it would be reasonable to be straight forward with it, and apply for the TUE.

Do you have notes where corticosteroid knee injections are specifically prohibited in cycling?

There is, however, some research indicating that corticosteroid knee injections may be of marginal benefit at best, and may in fact only provide short term relief of knee symptoms, perhaps at the detriment of long-term recovery.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

CliffordK said:


> Corticosteroids and anabolic steroids are completely different drugs/hormones.
> 
> Here is what I see on the WADA List.
> There is a process for acquiring a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE). Since there would be some systemic absorption of the corticosteroids if injected into joints, it would be reasonable to be straight forward with it, and apply for the TUE.
> ...


Jonathan Vaughters was not allowed a TUE for corticosteroids for a wasp sting in the
Tour de France. One of Lance's early dope busts was for corticosteroids which he covered up by back dating a scrip for using them for saddle sores.
Chris Froomes use of them was brought into question at the Tour of Romandie
WADA says UCI followed rules over Froome corticosteroid TUE | CyclingTips

and many cyclists have TUEs for inhalers of such, probably far more than actually need them

and yes, I'm quite aware of the difference. If a cyclist attempted to use a cortico steroid to reduce inflammation and reduce pain to a sore joint he'd be given a ban

from a Vaughters Bio
He was again forced to retire from the Tour however, Suffering from a wasp sting above his right eye during the 14th stage, and it is prohibited by the Union Cycliste international to use cortizone for the treatment of any wounds.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> Jonathan Vaughters was not allowed a TUE for corticosteroids for a wasp sting in the
> Tour de France.


You do realize that the puffy part of Vaughter is not his knee right?


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

According to the USADA/WADA notes above.
Corticosteroids are LEGAL for injection into joints and tendons (which would include knees)

Injections into muscle is not permitted (during competition).

That page doesn't mention injecting into fat or subcutaneous, but I assume it would be treated as a muscle injection because of the rapid systemic effects. 

I'm not sure about epinephrine, but I presume by the time a person needs an epi shot, they are already too far gone to finish the stage, and thus the TDF.

The corticosteroids are also permitted out of competition as long as they are cleared from the system before the next competition. The USADA/WADA also seems to permit topical corticosteroids (so butt creams should be fine).

I don't know if France treats the rules any differently. 

Would Jonathan Vaughters have been able to finish the stage during which he was stung even with corticosteroids? It looks to me like he might have already been knocked out of the race with or without them. The rules seem to indicate provisions for emergency treatment, with post TUE approval. Doing so, of course, is dangerous in the case that it might not be approved, unless one is already kocked out of the race, in which case it wouldn't matter.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You do realize that the puffy part of Vaughter is not his knee right?


and that changes my point how?
Cortizone injections (and painkillers) in baseball and football are spoken about as treatment NOT doping. They are accepted, not frowned upon, parts of the game


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> and that changes my point how?
> Cortizone injections (and painkillers) in baseball and football are spoken about as treatment NOT doping. They are accepted, not frowned upon, parts of the game


Do you read your own posts? You claim a double standard, that riders can't get a cortisone shot for knee pain.....then post a picture of a guy who got stung by a wasp to support your incorrect claim.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Do you read your own posts? You claim a double standard, that riders can't get a cortisone shot for knee pain.....then post a picture of a guy who got stung by a wasp to support your incorrect claim.


I don't claim a double standard
Cortisone in football and baseball etc.... is not considered dope, you don't need a TUE, your doctor / trainer just gives it to you as standard treatment and fans speak of it as it is NBD. JV applied fora TUE to deal with his wasp sting and was turned down. My guess is it would be hard to qualify for a TUE for cortisone in cycling, and I'm sure the testing / time you can use it is highly controlled.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> I don't claim a double standard
> Cortisone in football and baseball etc.... is not considered dope, you don't need a TUE, your doctor / trainer just gives it to you as standard treatment and fans speak of it as it is NBD. JV applied fora TUE to deal with his wasp sting and was turned down. My guess is it would be hard to qualify for a TUE for cortisone in cycling, and I'm sure the testing / time you can use it is highly controlled.



Very clear you have no idea what you are talking about, or you are trolling again. 

JV never applied for a TUE. He never applied and was never turned down. 

You do not need a TUE for Cortisone OOC. In competition it is simple for a knee injury. Voekler had one for the entire Tour last year....but JV did no have a knee injury, he had a bee sting.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

The NFL, NHL, NBA AND MLB are not subject to the WADA code, and their drug policy/banned substance list is a matter of their collective bargaining agreements with their players' unions. The NLRB still has some teeth left, and management can't make a unilateral change in a CBA to make cortisone a banned substance without legal ramifications. North American athletes in the remaining Olympic sports do become subject to the WADA code when they participate in the Games, or other international competitions like hockey's World Cup. It's not a double standard. It's a matter of labor relations law. If you're talking about fan perception of cheating, I would venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of North American sports fans are unaware that cortisone is a banned substance in international competitions. Which is why they don't see injections of it as cheating. Most Americans have no idea what EPO is, either, for that matter. Their idea of banned substances are pretty much limited to steroids and HGH, and possibly speed.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Didn't we learn from Hamilton's doping schedule that this is a lot more complicated than just popping a pill? He wasn't winning the grand tours and still he was on a set schedule of anabolics, growth hormone, Epo, insulin, insulin growth factor, blood transfusions, and various masking and flushing agents (Menotropin to mask the anabolics for example). It's likely the doping regimens are even more tightly structured now because of the biological passport.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

mpre53 said:


> The NFL, NHL, NBA AND MLB are not subject to the WADA code, and their drug policy/banned substance list is a matter of their collective bargaining agreements with their players' unions. The NLRB still has some teeth left, and management can't make a unilateral change in a CBA to make cortisone a banned substance without legal ramifications. North American athletes in the remaining Olympic sports do become subject to the WADA code when they participate in the Games, or other international competitions like hockey's World Cup. It's not a double standard. It's a matter of labor relations law. If you're talking about fan perception of cheating, I would venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of North American sports fans are unaware that cortisone is a banned substance in international competitions. Which is why they don't see injections of it as cheating. Most Americans have no idea what EPO is, either, for that matter. Their idea of banned substances are pretty much limited to steroids and HGH, and possibly speed.


which was my initial point. They think cycling is 'that dirty sport' and are ignorant about the dope use and loose testing (via, as you stated, their collective bargaining) in the sport of their choice


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> which was my initial point. They think cycling is 'that dirty sport' and are ignorant about the dope use and loose testing (via, as you stated, their collective bargaining) in the sport of their choice


are cortisone injections illegal in the NBA/etc?


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## bruin11 (May 21, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> which was my initial point. They think cycling is 'that dirty sport' and *are ignorant about the dope use and loose testing* (via, as you stated, their collective bargaining) in the sport of their choice


Or don't care.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

atpjunkie said:


> which was my initial point. They think cycling is 'that dirty sport' and are ignorant about the dope use and loose testing (via, as you stated, their collective bargaining) in the sport of their choice


Most casual sports fans don't even know how steroids work. They usually think that it's a magic pill that you pop, or a shot in the ass, that adds muscle and increases bat speed all on its own. That goes for a lot of sports writers, too. When you get into the science of it, their eyes roll back in their heads and you lose them. You start throwing alphabet soup out there, HCT, RBC, VO2 Max, w/kg, reticulocyte, you might as well be speaking some ancient language.

Up until the LA era, most American sports fans didn't know about doping in cycling, and/or didn't care. It may have been something that "the French" were doing, as to most folks out there, all cyclists are French. But once the genie is out of the bottle, then it's out. Americans know of one cycling race, and while folks my age may remember LeMond, the face of cycling in the US mass media started and ended with Lance. Greg had the bad fortune to win before the cable era on TV, when the last stage of the Tour was a half hour segment on Wide World of Sports. Landis didn't have the yellow long enough for the man in the street to remember him other than as one of LA's accusers.

Go to a group ride, and ask the riders in the B and C group who Andy Hampsten is, and you get a lot of blank stares. :wink:


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

mpre53 said:


> Most casual sports fans don't even know how steroids work. They usually think that it's a magic pill that you pop, or a shot in the ass, that adds muscle and increases bat speed all on its own. That goes for a lot of sports writers, too. When you get into the science of it, their eyes roll back in their heads and you lose them. You start throwing alphabet soup out there, HCT, RBC, VO2 Max, w/kg, reticulocyte, you might as well be speaking some ancient language.
> 
> Up until the LA era, most American sports fans didn't know about doping in cycling, and/or didn't care. It may have been something that "the French" were doing, as to most folks out there, all cyclists are French. But once the genie is out of the bottle, then it's out. Americans know of one cycling race, and while folks my age may remember LeMond, the face of cycling in the US mass media started and ended with Lance. Greg had the bad fortune to win before the cable era on TV, when the last stage of the Tour was a half hour segment on Wide World of Sports. Landis didn't have the yellow long enough for the man in the street to remember him other than as one of LA's accusers.
> 
> Go to a group ride, and ask the riders in the B and C group who Andy Hampsten is, and you get a lot of blank stares. :wink:


I know, I have photos of Merckx and people (cyclists) sometimes ask me "Who is that"
It confirms I'm old and have been following the sport a long time


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