# back in the day......



## bikemoore (Sep 8, 2005)

All of these beautiful photos of new-fangled carbon Pinarello's are nice....but how about some real ferrous Pinarello's from back in the day??  Back when Pinarello's were hand made in Italy.

I bought this Gavia from the Pinarello Cicli shop in Treviso, Italy in 1994 when I was stationed with the Air Force at Aviano Airbase, Italy (about 1 hour drive from Treviso). Giovanni Pinarello himself measured and fit me for the bike and then I sat with one of his assistants to choose the color and all of the components. Returned 3 weeks later to pick it up.

The bike shows a lot of wear because I've been riding the heck out of it ever since. I rode it for 4 years living in Italy, another 3 years living in England, another 3 years in Germany, another 3 years in Oklahoma, and now in Alaska. I have no idea how many miles the bike has because I don't ride with a computer or keep a log. Its all original except for the saddle, seatpost, bar tape, chain, tires, and cables. I also have other bikes, but this heavy beast remains my favorite ride. 24 pounds of pavement pounding lugged TSX grace.

Size is 62cm c-c X 59cm tt.

Components are Campy Chorus 8-speed Ergo, pantographed 135mm TTT bar & stem, 36-spoke Mavic Open 4CD wheels on Chorus hubs, Conti GP3000 tires, Rolls Ti saddle, Campy Ti seatpost, fizik bar tape, look pedals, paramount cages.

Seriously though....the new Pinarello's look nice, but I really gasp at how the prices have gotten out of hand. I paid about $2100 for this complete bike in 1994....and that included a 19% VAT. I just can't see spending $4000+ just for a new frameset.


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## gomango (Aug 30, 2006)

What a beauty! I currently have an '03 Pinarello Surprise. A predictable, yet stiff ride to be sure, but probably no match for your Gavia on a longer route. I am currently building a Merckx TSX Century. When I am finished restoring that bike, I may just find a nice older Pinarello frame set and go down the same path as you. Again, classic lines and a really special ride quality I would wager. Thanks for sharing.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

Shes lovely dude! I have a UK 2005 model Seistere, the emotions are very good riding her 

Do you know when Pinarello started out-sourcing their production? My Seistere looks very Italian made...


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## bikemoore (Sep 8, 2005)

*outsourcing*

I believe they started outsourcing to Asia when their carbon bikes came along. Prior to that, they still outsourced but the outsourcing was primarily within Italy. One thing about Pinarello is that the Pinarello family are not tube-cutters and torch-wielders....they run a family business that contracts and/or hires the people they need to design and build their product. I don't mean that as a knock against them because they are very good at it. The Pinarello company has a lot of clout and influence in the Italian bicycle industry and they design and build the best....they just do it via a different model than doing everything in-house with their own hands. Even their older steel frames like mine were generally made by somebody working under contract....a very common practice in Italian cycling for a long time.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

Interesting, I didn't know Pinarello worked that way. So they contract another frame builder to do their welding, or they contract individual freelance welders? Carbon would be the standard route of out-sourcing to the far east. Just trying to get a picture of how they work..


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## bikemoore (Sep 8, 2005)

*outsourcing models*

I don't mean to make it sound more complicated than it is, but I think I can explain the basic model for outsourcing with the following example:

MERAKMAN Bicycles is a highly reputable company in the cycling industry. BIKEMOORE Manufacturing specializes in fabricating high quality bicycles and components. MERAKMAN is a solid name in the minds of customers, sponsors pro teams, has deals with tubing companies for exclusive use of the newest tubesets, and has a solid distribution network. BIKEMOORE has solid reputation within the industry for excellent manufacturing quality, but has little public brand recognition because BIKEMOORE specializes in manufacturing goods for other companies to sell. Since MERAKMAN Bicycles operates at the higher end of bicycle retail, they can get the best manufacturers to build product for them. Since BIKEMOORE Manufacturing has an industry reputation for excellent quality, they can land a contract to build for the best bicycle companies. So, MERAKMAN and BIKEMOORE negotiate a contract for BIKEMOORE to build the bicycles that MERAKMAN will sell under the MERAKMAN name using the tubesets and materials that MERAKMAN has exclusive use of. In fact, MERAKMAN probably has contracts with several manufacturing companies to build different types of bicycles so that MERAKMAN has a complete line of bikes for every market segment that they want to compete in. BIKEMOORE is perfectly happy with this arrangement because they are well paid to do what they do best....they probably even have contracts with multiple companies to make high quality bikes. MERAKMAN is also perfectly happy because they get high-quality bicycles to sell with their name on it. Both companies profit and happily sell nice steel bikes for years.

Now comes Aluminum. Maybe BIKEMOORE has the expertise to make aluminum bikes or maybe another company is better at it. MERAKMAN wants the best, so they have another company make their new aluminum bikes and the contract between MERAKMAN and BIKEMOORE becomes smaller.

Now comes Carbon fiber. MERAKMAN knows they must move quickly to find someone to design and build high-quality carbon fiber bikes, but they can't find anyone in their traditional manufacturing base who can meet their standards at a competitive cost. But China has the manufacturers who can. So, MERAKMAN, instead of using their traditional local Italian manufacturing companies has to now get Chinese companies to make their bikes. MERAKMAN still has the clout to get the best manufacturing companies under contract, but their product now comes from Asia instead of Italy. A bit of a PR problem catering to Italian bike snobs, but MERAKMAN does what they need to do to compete and profit.

BIKEMOORE Manufacturing struggles to compete with China and pretty much gives up on attempting to make carbon bikes. In fact, BIKEMOORE recognizes that there is a smaller market segment that still love bikes made from metal, but nobody wants to sell them. So, BIKEMOORE starts selling a smaller number of bikes under the BIKEMOORE name. BIKEMOORE's previous contract terms prevent them from saying who they used to build for, but a lot of people know anyway. People like the quality and BIKEMOORE develops a very loyal following, but BIKEMOORE will never sell the same number of bikes that they did before.

MERAKMAN Bicycles continues to profit selling MERAKMAN bikes with pro team sponsorships, exclusive deals on components, tubesets, clothing, etc and profits handsomely. In fact, the business model of contracting manufacturing makes MERAKMAN a very nimble company able to respond quickly to new market trends. They don't have to spend their time and energy learning and re-tooling to make the latest product. Instead they can spend their energy on design, engineering, and marketing and then find the best manufacturers to make their product. They wish they had local manufacturing companies to make their product, but they simply aren't competitive. BIKEMOORE isn't doing too badly and maybe if MERAKMAN decides to reintroduce a steel bike they will see if BIKEMOORE is available and willing to make them.

Now, not all Italian bike brands used this model, but a lot of them do....especially the Venetian companies like Pinarello and Bottechia. Also Fondriest and Coppi. If you have an older metal Italian bike, you should not be surprised if the bike was actually made by someone you never heard of....or maybe by someone you have heard of. Pegoretti and Scapin are two names who I'm pretty sure have made bikes for other highly reputable companies in addition to bikes under their own name.

When I lived in England from 1998-2001, I bought a Paul Hewitt 853 frameset. It was custom built for me, fits great, rides great, looks great....but Paul Hewitt didn't build it. Paul Hewitt is one the UK's most highly regarded home-grown local bike retailers with his own line of bicycles. Paul Hewitt fit me for it, drew up the specifications, but he sent the order to a UK manufacturing company that I never heard of that he had contracted to build his bikes. I'm certain Paul Hewitt wasn't the only company they build for, but so what. It is a fantastic bike that I didn't pay a fortune for and I didn't have to wait years to get it.

I don't view my Hewitt as being any less a quality custom bike or my Pinarello any less a true hand-made Italian steed just because they were made by somebody other than the name on the downtube. Its just they way the industry works. Some make everything in house and some use arrangements among multiple companies. Both models work just fine when managed by somebody who knows what they are doing and both models work like crap when managed by somebody who doesn't. I view Pinarello as a company who does know what they are doing.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks for your very helpful and informative review. I do have a couple of questions though; Where did you hear about how people like Pinarello work? I don't doubt your correct; I'm just interested to know your source.

Also have you heard of De Rosa? If so, they are supposed to make everything in house. I wondered if you'd heard anything to the contrary about De Rosa, as I own a couple of these frames...?


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## bikemoore (Sep 8, 2005)

*bits here & there*

I guess I have to start by saying I have little first-hand knowledge of exactly how they work and who they do business with. Its more a matter of picking up information bit-by-bit over the years through reading, talking with others, and my own experience living in Italy and poking round bike shops and talking with the owners. I first remember being surprised when an Italian friend made a remark when he saw my Pinarello Gavia back in the 1990s that the bike was made by (XXXXXX). I didn't catch the name that he said, but I remember being surprised that he thought my bike was made by someone other than Pinarello.

During the 5 years that I spent living in northeastern Italy, I started to become pretty familiar with the local bike shops in that area and started to see a pattern emerge: retired pros running bike shops and selling bikes under their own name. Salvador and Delle Case being two examples. I bought a fixed-gear frameset from Delle Case. They measured me, sent the order for construction and paint, and then did final assembly in the shop. I also found bike manufacturers that built bikes under their own name, but the size of their production facility seemed much bigger than the popularity of their own bikes warranted. Spezzotto and Bandozil being two examples. I knew that Salvador and Delle Case did not make their own bikes....so who was making them? It also seemed that Bandozil and Spezzotto were making more bikes than they were selling under their own name, so who were they making them for? Rumor had it that Salvador's bikes were made by the same manufacturer as Fondriest bikes. Doesn't mean the bikes were identical as manufacturers will make bikes of different specification for different customers. But continues to shed light on a common model of retail brand names and manufacturers being separate entities who team up to create a product.

Years of reading cycling magazines and websites also yields information on close working relationships between Pinarello, Dedaccai, and Pegoretti. Now you see Pinarello's and other's careful use of phrases like "designed in Italy" or "assembled in Italy" to account for outsourcing to Asia. Previously, they could say "handmade in Italy" and it would still be true even they didn't make the bikes themselves.

I may be totally off-base with all this, but I really think I'm not far off the mark.

Regarding De Rosa: I've never heard anything other than De Rosa does all of their building in-house. Same with Tommasini. Again, both models work. I have no problem with being a fan of a company that does a great job as the lead brand of a collection of companies coming together to produce great bikes instead of feeling like they have to do everything themselves under their own roof.

One of the remarkable aspects of my Pinarello Gavia is the durability of the paint. Pinarello departed from most of their Italian competitors of the day and had their frames finished with Dupont Imron paint. After 14 years of heavy use on the road, the paint on my Pinarello is still in fantastic shape. The only blemishes are where I either picked up a big piece of road debris in my spokes and chipped a spot on the seat stay or the cables rubbed the side the of the head tube. Many Italian frames of the day have reputations for fragile finishes, but this one is hard as nails. Did Pinarello paint the frame? Did the framemaker send it to yet another company for paint? I don't know and it doesn't really matter to me. I just know its a great quality paintjob. 

Question for you: how do you like your De Rosa. I've been looking at a used EL-OS De Rosa and am curious how you would compare De Rosa to other steel bikes you have ridden.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

Hi thanks again. I love my De Rosa's, I bought a steel De Rosa frame called an Endurace, made in 1997, so I can compare with my Pinarello Seistere. It's great frame, very stiff with large bladed De Rosa fork, so very stable on descents. It looks like an alloy frame due to the tear dropped shaped tubes. Very nice finish as well. 

Compared to the Pinarello, it is stiffer, but the Pina is more comfortable and feels abit more lively and springy (more fun maybe). I would say the De Rosa is more stable down hill, due to the larger bladed and deeper section of the fork. The fork is quite skinny on the Pina, compared to the De Rosa's. Having said that, I love the feel of the Pina, it feels like it just want to go from the start. The finish is stunning too on the Pina; to choose between the two would be an impossible task, because they ride so differently, even though they are both steel frames. I'll let you know after a winter of riding the Pinarello if I prefer it to the De Rosa, as I haven't ridden it for a while so just going from memory and a very brief ride at the weekend...

I heard that Dupont Imron do De Rosa's too I believe..One other thing I was interested to know; do Pinarello actually 'design' and 'test' the frames themselves or is the design/concept and testing stage outsourced also? They seem to give the impression from their brochures that they concept, design and test through to the finished product. They are candid about where the actual production is (now we know better) apart from the Dogma frame, which they state, is still made in Italy...


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## bikemoore (Sep 8, 2005)

*In-house design, testing, finishing*

My impression is also that Pinarello designs, tests, and finishes their bikes and components in-house with the basic manufacturing outsourced. Remember their "Opera" brand? I remember reading that the purpose for creating the Opera brand was to explore new designs and manufacturing concepts for high-end carbon frame sets and components. By creating a distinct new brand while ensuring most people knew that it was still Pinarello behind it, they had a lot of freedom to explore designs and probably new manufacturing bases without the pressure of whether or not these new "Pinarellos" were going the right direction or not. I think they finally retired the Opera brand when they were confident that they had the right stuff to bring their new designs and sources to market as their current line of carbon Pinarellos and the retail market was ready to accept them as Pinarellos.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

bikemoore said:


> My impression is also that Pinarello designs, tests, and finishes their bikes and components in-house with the basic manufacturing outsourced. Remember their "Opera" brand? I remember reading that the purpose for creating the Opera brand was to explore new designs and manufacturing concepts for high-end carbon frame sets and components. By creating a distinct new brand while ensuring most people knew that it was still Pinarello behind it, they had a lot of freedom to explore designs and probably new manufacturing bases without the pressure of whether or not these new "Pinarellos" were going the right direction or not. I think they finally retired the Opera brand when they were confident that they had the right stuff to bring their new designs and sources to market as their current line of carbon Pinarellos and the retail market was ready to accept them as Pinarellos.


Hi Bikemoore

Thanks. So does that mean Pinarello has the designers, manufacturing and testing facilities in their Italian factory? Are the designers the members of the Pinarello family themselves? 

Also I used to really like the Opera models; when did Pinarello retire that brand? 

I have just re-built my winter bike; a Pinarello Seistere. I'd forgotten how beautiful the ride of that steel frame is. How does your baby ride? 

Take care


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## bikemoore (Sep 8, 2005)

*I stand corrected*

I googled Opera bikes and found they are still around. I thought they had quietly been put to sleep because I have seen no advertising or any other information on them in several years.

I don't believe that the Pinarello family are the engineers. Their factory in Treviso is where they have designers, engineers, assemblers, test technicians, finishers, etc. When I went to Treviso between 1994 and 2004, what I saw was that the old "Pinarello Cicli" shop in town is where the old man Giovanni hangs out. Behind that shop, the family has a sports clothing store where his daughters hang out. His son Fausto runs the company from the factory. I don't think Fausto is the main engineer, but does provide a very strong vision for the brand and assembles the people and contracts to make it all happen. Very smart business man. When I would stop in the shop to buy a jersey, jacket or whatever, if the shop didn't have my size on their shelves, all they had to do was phone over to the factory warehouse and someone from the factory would drop it off at the shop. They would politely ask me to wait about 20 minutes....which I never had any issue with because it gave me an excuse to continue to look over all the stuff in their shop.

The ride of my Gavia is very well balanced. Its not that it does any one thing better than other bikes....its more like it just does everything very well. It really shines on long rides and its the standard by which I measure every other bike I'm on....not just because I think its the best.....more like its the bike that I have spent the most time on and am most comfortable with. The one other bike that I like just about as much is my Serotta Atlanta.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

Well thanks again, the Pinarello shop/factory sounds a fascinating place to visit. I don't think I've ever seen pictures of the factory and what goes on inside it...

Have a Merry Christmas Bikemoore


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## Sacke (May 23, 2007)

bikemoore said:


> Regarding De Rosa: I've never heard anything other than De Rosa does all of their building in-house. Same with Tommasini. Again, both models work. I have no problem with being a fan of a company that does a great job as the lead brand of a collection of companies coming together to produce great bikes instead of feeling like they have to do everything themselves under their own roof.


First of all, I have to admit that I didn't read through the whole thread, but this part caught my eye. 

Having looked at Colnagos, Pinarellos ('08 & '09 Prince) and a De Rosa King 3, I can say that the above claim about De Rosa being completely in house production, sounds right. 

The fact that supports it, is the terrible quality of the finish. The new Colnagos, Pinarellos, Wiliers, Dedacciais etc are all done with a near perfect finish. The only blemishes seem to be occasional dust particles underneath the clear coat, but thats it. 

De Rosa's are a different story... Unevenly cut stickers, a bit of small points of paint (airbrushed without properly protecting the rest of the frame), and other details, would all support the fact that the bikes are still more or less completely hand finished in Italy, and not done by a perfectly tunes Asian machine. 

I personally prefer the Asian, higher, quality over the Italian passion with a flaw.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2008)

Love the Gavia by the way, that's classic.


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## dnalsaam (Dec 6, 2004)

Whoa, what a bunch of nonsense, untruths and half truths in this thread. I understand that the statements were all undoubtedly made in good faith and based upon the poster's level of knowledge, but it really is counterproductive to state positions without knowing the facts behind the matter. I would suggest that it is best to simply ignore all the information given above rather than to go over and dissect each post individually and correct them.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

dnalsaam said:


> Whoa, what a bunch of nonsense, untruths and half truths in this thread. I understand that the statements were all undoubtedly made in good faith and based upon the poster's level of knowledge, but it really is counterproductive to state positions without knowing the facts behind the matter. I would suggest that it is best to simply ignore all the information given above rather than to go over and dissect each post individually and correct them.


Can you offer any inside information regarding Pinarello's manufacturing status? Thanks in advance.


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## bikemoore (Sep 8, 2005)

*conjecture*

Conjecture: Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.

I'm not an investigator or an industry insider and I know I don't have a complete, accurate picture. But I can make conjectures. However, conjecture does not necessarily mean nonsense. A couple of events used in my conjectures:

1) In the mid-1990s Pinarello steel frames started using Pinarello-branded tubesets (Kens, Dolmen, etc) when they had previously used the same Columbus tubesets as other brands. Did Pinarello suddenly start making steel tubesets? No, they partnered with an existing tube maker (I believe with the then-new Dedaccai) to make Pinarello-branded tubesets for use in Pinarello bikes. Just like Serotta did with their various Colorado Concept steel tubesets.

2) M.O.S.T components. Did Pinarello really start making their own stems, cranksets, bottom-brackets, and seatposts? I doubt it. They put together proprietary designs and partnered to have them made under the Pinarello brand.

I think its more of a stretch to believe that they made everything in-house until suddenly deciding to source carbon bikes from Asia. Its more likely that at least part of their past metal frame lineup was also outsourced, partnered, whatever within Italy and then going to Asia for carbon frames was a natural extension of business model they were already using. I don't mean that they never made a bike in-house, but rather that some bikes were probably made in-house, some outsourced, with design and finishing in house. Nearly all bikes are outsourced to some degree. How many frame builders make their own tubes? Their own lugs? Their own carbon forks? 

I know I'm reaching with incomplete facts, but we can do some guesswork based on a combination of information we find and analysis of what makes sense for a company to do, and then you can ignore it if you wish.....it is the internet after all.....a vast wilderness of questionable information.

But the real point is this: it doesn't matter. What matters is the quality of the finished product.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

Anythings possible. All I know is my Seistere rides as smooth as spreading butter and is a great around performing frame and as you say my friend, thats the main part.

It would still be nice to know where they are made, but I guess thats all part of the mystic of the Italian bike industry (will we ever know the truth? )

Happy New Year to all


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## Sacke (May 23, 2007)

One thing is certain... On a 2009 Pinarello Prince, there is not any reference to the bike being made in Italy.


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## dnalsaam (Dec 6, 2004)

bikemoore said:


> Conjecture: Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.
> 
> I'm not an investigator or an industry insider and I know I don't have a complete, accurate picture. But I can make conjectures. However, conjecture does not necessarily mean nonsense. A couple of events used in my conjectures:
> 
> ...


I have known the Pinarello family for over 20 years and my wife has known them for even longer as she is from Treviso and went to school with Nane's daughter Carla. When I worked in Treviso in the 90's, Nane suggested that I work for him instead of the company that I was then working for (at least until he found out what I was then earning).

I know where much of the Pinarello parts, components and frames are and were sourced from. I don't find the information particularly important or compelling and given that they do not themselves reveal this information do not feel it correct or advisable to reveal this information. I will say that you are mostly wrong regarding your conjecture about the tubing. You are totally wrong in your conjecture about the MOST parts. As such, may I simply suggest that you not create any more internet inaccuracies and simply stop with your guesses.

Pinarello has been outsourcing parts of their production since day one. They never produced all of their goods. Nane Pinarello is not a framebuilder in the mold of De Rosa or Pogliaghi or Pegoretti. He is first and foremost a businessman and has never claimed to be anything else. He was once a top-notch pro rider and is also a first-class supporter of cycling and a great believer in the sport. I wish him and his family many more years of success.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

Sacke said:


> One thing is certain... On a 2009 Pinarello Prince, there is not any reference to the bike being made in Italy.



I'll say too true to that! I've seen the sticker 'made in Taiwan' on Prince frames...still a sexy thing the Prince.. Hope your enjoying yours Sacke, anymore riding impressions?


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Late to this thread...just wanted to see more photos of the Pinarello Gavia. 8s Chorus with Cinelli cockpit.


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