# Two Quick Dream Questions



## cascadebiker (Aug 17, 2004)

Looking to purchase a 2003 non B-stay Dream built up with Record and I've got two quick questions:

1) Is $2,500 a reasonable price for a Dream w/full 10 speed record and Ksyriums in mint condition that has been ridden less than 500 miles?

2) I'm a fairly recent convert to road biking, and have only ridden a Bianchi steel framed steed- if you were me, would you save until you could afford a carbon and/or ti frame to avoid road chatter/harshness? I'm worried the ride will be harsh, and am unable to test ride it prior to purchase.

Thanks!!!


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

cascadebiker said:


> Looking to purchase a 2003 non B-stay Dream built up with Record and I've got two quick questions:
> 
> 1) Is $2,500 a reasonable price for a Dream w/full 10 speed record and Ksyriums in mint condition that has been ridden less than 500 miles?
> 
> ...


I ride a 2003 Dream with Chorus and custom wheels. Picked the frame up NOS on eBay for $1000, build kit at the time was another $1000 and the wheels were $400. Seems to me the price you're describing is a bit on the high side, but not outrageously so.

In terms of ride - it's a pretty stiff bike but I don't think it's harsh compared to any of my others (aluminum, steel, CF.) These days, I think that the harshness of aluminum is a myth that stems from the early days of AL frames. I don't find any of the newer aluminum tubesets or designs to be significantly different from anything else I ride. Many will disagree, but that is my experience. I'm perfectly happy doing the same epics on the Dream that I do on my other "supposedly smooth" steel bikes. In fact, I doubt I could pick it in a blind test against my steel (Boron) Bianchi.

It's a personal thing, you may hate it. I love mine.


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## froteur (Feb 29, 2004)

got my dream in march and paid a lot more than that for it. "i" think $2500 is not out of line but a lot depends on the components outside of the frame and campy stuff. which ksyriums are included?

btw ... i love the ride of my bike!


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

*But yours is a B-Stay*



froteur said:


> got my dream in march and paid a lot more than that for it. "i" think $2500 is not out of line but a lot depends on the components outside of the frame and campy stuff. which ksyriums are included?
> 
> btw ... i love the ride of my bike!


I'm not sure but I thought the non B-stay (full AL) version was significantly cheaper than the carbon rear version. Does Conago still make the full AL Dream?? I haven't seen any in a while. Ride ON!!!


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## froteur (Feb 29, 2004)

ooooops ... gotta pay more attention to the posts. i didn't see the NON b-stay part. my understanding is that the non b-stay model was much less expensive. i'm not sure when they stopped making the all al one but i know that, for 2004, there was only the cardon hp version made (mine's a 2003 model).


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## cascadebiker (Aug 17, 2004)

*Thanks for your input!!!*

Thanks so much for taking the time to share some thoughts about the Dream. The bike I'm considering, fyi, has new Ksyrium SSLs, Speedplay ti pedals, a record seatpost and Force carbon fork. Having always been a steel-frame rider, I'm still just a bit concerned about the comfort of the ride for longer spins, but am on the verge of taking the plunge into the cult of Colnago afficianados. My biggest concern is that once I get a taste of what it feels like to ride a Colnago, I'll soon be suffering an irrepressible longing for a more expensive C-40 or C-50.


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## C50 (Feb 8, 2004)

*Colnago comfort*

I, too, thought an alum frame would be too harsh, like the old Cdales, etc. But my friend in engineering at Colnago told me I HAD to ride a Dream (he wanted my BiTitanio back), so I tried a Dream Plus with the Columbus Airplane tubing (54cm if that matters).

I loved it, and rode it exclusively == 'til I got my C-50........now my girlfriend rides the Dream, her 18yo daughter the BiTi, and my friend at Colnago is a little miffed......

BTW, both gals came off a Bianchi, and didn't think there would be that much difference going to the Colnago. With the components switched over, so the frame was the only thing changed, they BOTH rode faster, loved the handling, felt more confident, etc.

One of our cycling friends was with us on the third ride with the Colnago, and said he was going to kid my girlfriend that she was riding like she was on the old bike. Trouble was, he had to CATCH her to say it ---- took some of the sting out of the comment !!!!


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## froteur (Feb 29, 2004)

cascadebiker said:


> Thanks so much for taking the time to share some thoughts about the Dream. The bike I'm considering, fyi, has new Ksyrium SSLs, Speedplay ti pedals, a record seatpost and Force carbon fork. Having always been a steel-frame rider, I'm still just a bit concerned about the comfort of the ride for longer spins, but am on the verge of taking the plunge into the cult of Colnago afficianados. My biggest concern is that once I get a taste of what it feels like to ride a Colnago, I'll soon be suffering an irrepressible longing for a more expensive C-40 or C-50.


i rode my dream from san francisco to los angeles over 7 days in june and had no problem with comfort - at least as far as the frame was concerned (butt was a little sore from so much saddle time though)  i tell you, though, that nag is super steady. rides like it is on rails. the only problem is that i now want a c50.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

*late but pertinent*

I hope this helps you to determine value:

The US retail cost of the '03 Dream non-Bstay frame with Flash (steel steerer) fork was $1800 by any reliable shop in the US. US wholesale ran around $1200, and dealer cost was just over $900. These prices are NOT adjusted for current weak dollar vs. Euro/lira in currency exchange, they are real world late '02 / early '03 prices. 

I bought mine in late November of 2002 from Maestro UK for 710.00 (UK pounds) with Flash fork, which at that time translated to roughly US$ 1080.00. 

If the one you are talking about has the Force fork (carbon steerer), add another US$ 300.00 to these figures.

Campag Record 10 in late '02 / early '03 retailed for just under $1600 for the entire groupo. My employee discount cost (wholesale) was $1130.00. 

You did not say whether these were '03 Ksyriums, SL, Elite, or ?? I'm going to assume roughly $450 - $500 for the wheelset in absence of better info.

So if you were to have built that bike at reasonable retail prices in 2003:

$1800 frame + Flash fork
$1600 groupset
$ 450 wheelset

Total retail = $3850 - $3900 unless you're talking Force carbon steerer fork, which brings it to around $4200.00 full retail build cost sans pedals. Not taking into consideration additional bits that can seriously affect the price (saddle, bars, seatpost, pedals, tires, etc...) If the guy built it with top of the line everything it could easily have been well over a $4500 build.

Just so you realise, the Master profile (cloverleaf) tubing on the Dream does do a lot to isolate the rider from road "buzz". Added to which, the "harshness" of modern AL frames is a myth perpetrated by old perceptions from the mid-late 80's and early 90's (early model 
Al Cannondales and Kleins being the vastly overbuilt and highly popular culprits in the US). Ever ridden a 1988-91 era Vitus or Alan? Both were aluminum frames, and neither gained much popularity outside of recreational touring in the US, because all but the lightest, smallest riders rejected them as far too whippy for racing on. Plus they tended to break. So much for the aluminum-as-harsh propaganda, and a possible source for the "unreliability" angle as well.

My ex still rides his 1987 model Cannondale criterium frame, and he's a Clydesdale-size, bike breaking maniacal fool. He uses it as his winter beater. He has a 2000 Dream Plus that he rides most of the time and he says the diff. between the two is night and day, despite both being Al frames. I can attest to this myself in the vast differences between my Morgul Bismark Aero Al (Easton 7005, oversided aero tubing, tight upright geometry for TT) and my Dream. The Morgul is a jackrabbit and a jackhammer, and I use it for one hour crits and short hillclimbs. The Dream is a kinetic masterpiece in flight, and has the most compliant ride of any bike I've ever been on, including my old Giant Cadex (lugged carbon).

These days most high-end production racing frames are designed and built for very similar ride qualities and handling regardless of frame material. Most perceptible differences in ride will stem from the wheelset and tires. 

Next time you test ride a bike of any frame material, take a close look at the OEM tire spec. If you think the ride is "harsh", it's a good bet the bike is shod with Contis pumped up to max pressure. IME these are the stiffest sidewalls / harshest riding tires made regardless of model / price point. The only Contis I use anymore are Sprinters on my beater tubular wheels, because they are durable enough to hold up to gravel but I agree with Mr. Grumpy that they ride like poo. Everything's a tradeoff. If you don't believe me, then swap 'em for an identical wheelset wearing Vittorias or Michelins pumped to the same psi.


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## cascadebiker (Aug 17, 2004)

*You rock! + paint protection*

Hey, thanks to each of you for your generous and very helpful input. I decided to take the plunge and buy my first Colnago. I should have it in less than a week! I'll post pics if anyone is interested- Geo paint scheme with matching Hoskar saddle. Can't wait to feel the click of those Record shifters.

One last follow-up: I have read numerous postings concerning paint damage on Colnago frames. Any suggested advice for protecting the finish? Wax, clear coat?

Thanks again!!!

Mark


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

*I don't worry about it*



cascadebiker said:


> One last follow-up: I have read numerous postings concerning paint damage on Colnago frames. Any suggested advice for protecting the finish? Wax, clear coat?
> Mark


Root around in the archives here on the Colnago board, I wrote another lengthy post on this subject. I'd recommend some kind of wax (Pedro's Bike Lust or similar) and normal care in not letting it get dropped. Other than that, a certain sort of thick-skinned attitude needs to be adopted.

I had my bike all of a week when I did something dumb - leaned it against a fence post near registration at a race. I thought to myself at the time I was doing it "maybe this isn't such a good idea". Well, sure 'nuff, three or four guys piled their rigs up on top of mine Bike Jenga style. Couple minutes later the wind came up, and WHAM! the whole shebang went over with my week-old Dream 'nag roadie at the bottom of the pile. Took a pea-sized chip out of the paint on my top tube. I ranted for a bit, then decided that, since I was racing the thing anyways, it'd probably look a whole lot worse at the end of the season. I was right. 2 years down the road and I now ride it in dirt and gravel and don't even flinch. It's got some dings and scuffs, but it doesn't make it any less pretty. The Italians don't make their paint any more durable than they do because it's just not important to them. They feel like the dings and paint chips on a bike's finish tell it's history, and being typically romantic Italians, they even coined a phrase for it which loosely translates to "weathering marks". In their minds, these lend to a bike's character.

Colnago paint schemes, particularly the Geo, are also so complex that you don't notice blemishes on them as much as you would on, say, a solid-color frame. Which is part of the point of the complex designs in the first place.

If it really bothers you that bad, and / or if the bike gets really ratty-looking in a few season's hard riding, then strip it down, send it to Spectrum Paintworks, and get them to replicate the whole scheme in powder coat, and you'll never have to worry about it again. They can do amazing things with powder these days - the owner of Spectrum claims he can absolutely match my Landbouwkrediet '03 scheme in powder -- pearl, fades and all.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

*the paint on my Colnago Dream*

You hear all the ravings on this site about how fragile Colnago paint <A TITLE="Click for more information about job" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||job|AA1VDw">job</A>s are, but my experience is precisely the opposite. The only place the paint of my Year 2000 Mapei Colnago Dream has suffered significant damage is on the chain stay - which is continually chain-slapped due to the fact I've got a medium length cage on my derailleur. Everywhere else, the paint has survived fine - this despite the fact I continually toss the bike in and out of my <A TITLE="Click for more information about car" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||cars|AA1VDw">car</A> trunk. By contrast, my Rambouillet will lose a chunk of paint if you look at it funny. On the Rambouillet, in four months of riding, the paint has already worn off the head tube at the points where the Campy derailleur cables rub against it. On the Colnago, in FOUR YEARS of Campy Cable rubbing, the site is just now starting to look a bit peaked. And, as LoneFront says, the Colnago paint job is so darn busy, you can't see the various scuffs anyway.

In other words, don't worry about the paint. It sticks just fine.


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## cascadebiker (Aug 17, 2004)

*Dream B-stay vs. Mercx Team SC vs. DeRosa Merak*

I've got an opportunity to purchase any of these three 2003 frames for roughly the same price. Assuming each was built up with full '04 record, which would you prefer??? I'm seeking a solid, durable ride that is snappy yet smooth and comfy over longer distances. The Colnago has a full carbon rear, the Merckx has carbon chainstays, and the DeRosa is all aluminum. I had a seller back out of a deal concerning a pre-B stay Colnago, so my bikequest continues. Thanks for your thoughts!

Mark


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## froteur (Feb 29, 2004)

cascadebiker said:


> I've got an opportunity to purchase any of these three 2003 frames for roughly the same price. Assuming each was built up with full '04 record, which would you prefer??? I'm seeking a solid, durable ride that is snappy yet smooth and comfy over longer distances. The Colnago has a full carbon rear, the Merckx has carbon chainstays, and the DeRosa is all aluminum. I had a seller back out of a deal concerning a pre-B stay Colnago, so my bikequest continues. Thanks for your thoughts!
> 
> Mark


I don't have enough experience with the other bikes, but I LOVE my 2003 Dream B-Stay. I have mostly '03 Record with FSA carbon compact cranks.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

If I was pressed with that same choice, I'd take the Dream - and I already have one.


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