# tour de suisse-stage 4



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

quite a finish today....


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

That is one way to keep Cav from winning a sprint...


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

That was completely Cav's fault.


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## tbb001 (Oct 1, 2007)

Wow, did everyone get up from that one?
A lot of top sprinters went down just a few weeks before the Tour...


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't think that was Cav's fault. After watching the replay a few times, he lost his back wheel. It looked to me like the polka-dot jersey to his left (our right), who was even with Cav's back wheel, clipped it - taking them both down.

Hope everyone was ok.


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

JoelS said:


> I don't think that was Cav's fault. After watching the replay a few times, he lost his back wheel. It looked to me like the polka-dot jersey to his left (our right), who was even with Cav's back wheel, clipped it - taking them both down.
> 
> Hope everyone was ok.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRFh9GuLYbs

from the overhead replay it looks like they were side by side when cav nudged him?


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

tinkerbeast said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRFh9GuLYbs
> 
> from the overhead replay it looks like they were side by side when cav nudged him?


You're right. Did Hausler give him a bit of a shove? Cav was drifting.

Tough to sort this one out without clearer video.


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## gande_bike (Feb 28, 2006)

Looks like both Cav and Hausler were drifting toward the middle, to crowd Ciolek.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Wow, that was pretty crazy to happen so close to the line. Tough to tell who was at fault for sure. Looked like Cav was lucky too, as he was face up and nearly got run over. Looks like he went down pretty hard on his shoulder.


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## Chef Tony (Mar 2, 2004)

Looks like Cavendish did get run over by Boonen, but I can't see fault in the video. Cav and Haussler both had their heads down and just moved into each other.


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## MotobecaneLeChampion (Jan 30, 2009)

Can someone post a link to the video?

Thanks.


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## slimjw (Jul 30, 2008)

Totally Cav's fault. If you watch the overhead shot he drifts WAY over to the left and into Haussler, who was holding his own line. And from the replay I don't think Haussler shoved him; just looked like he was sprinting with his elbows out as these guys do. If you watch it you can tell Haussler was just going full out with his head down and didn't even notice Cav until it was way too late.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

MotobecaneLeChampion said:


> Can someone post a link to the video?
> 
> Thanks.


see 5 posts before yours


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

Looks to me like Haussler is holding a much straighter line than Cav.

Who is the AG2R rider that got flipped onto the barriers?


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

harlond said:


> Looks to me like Haussler is holding a much straighter line than Cav.



Definitely, but Cav was the one shutting the door on Ciolek. I don't know enough of sprinting rules to know if it was Cav's fault. It also looked like Cav was spooling up for a second acceleration. Too bad the front camera changes angle just as the crash happens.


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## tbb001 (Oct 1, 2007)

Cav was given a 30sec time penalty for irregular sprinting.


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

That was pretty nasty, looks to me, from watching the videos, Cav and Haussler locked elbows and Cav lost control of it... didn't look like any wheels rubbed. Cav definitely came all the way across the middle.

These sequence of photos really show the look of anguish on all the riders faces... And Boonen, does indeed run right over Cav, but he had no where else to go.

http://www.steephill.tv/2010/tour-de-suisse/photos/stage-04/


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

Cav was not holding his line but Haussler didnt either. Looked bad anyway you slice it.


*edit* your right, looking at the overhead, looks like cavs fault all the way.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

Seen this pic?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...spectacular-crash-at-Tour-of-Switzerland.html

Pretty spatacular wheel fold.
Can't tell if it is cause or effect but it can't have helped. IMO Cav was definately off-line but it looks like the wheel had failed before Cav went down.

PS Sorry don't know how to just copy pic.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

tbb001 said:


> Cav was given a 30sec time penalty for irregular sprinting.


Well, that's that then.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

It looks like Haussler somehow rode onto Cav's wheel, causing it to taco. Probably as Cav was rocking back and forth while digging.

The race jury probably made the right call in that Cav didn't take perfectly straight line. Haussler was also head down and drifted a bit, too. Bad luck all around.

JSR


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

baker921 said:


> Seen this pic?
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/mark-cavendish/7830892/Mark-Cavendish-and-Heinrich-Haussler-in-spectacular-crash-at-Tour-of-Switzerland.html
> 
> ...












Geez, it looks like the wheel is melting.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

That photo is freaking amazing. Graham Watson eat your heart out.


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## Andrew1 (May 27, 2009)

The ones placing the blame on Cav have probably never been in a real sprint. No one is at fault here. These moves happen every time and this time it came out badly.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

spookyload said:


> That photo is freaking amazing. Graham Watson eat your heart out.


Graham Watson has a picture after the crash. Looks like Cavs wheel bounces back and is almost straight again.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Andrew1 said:


> The ones placing the blame on Cav have probably never been in a real sprint. No one is at fault here. These moves happen every time and this time it came out badly.


I agree it's pretty close - both were shutting the door on Ciolek but Cav's move was bit more of a hook. Haussler was doing a good Abdoujaparov impersonation with his head down - seems like a good idea to see where you're going when you're not leading the sprint.


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

I keep looking at the videos, and I see Cav's left elbow come across Hausslers right hand, hooking him and Cav's rocking the bike causes it to steer into Haussler. At that extreme angle, Haussler runs over Cavs wheel (ala the photo).


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)




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## jeff91c2t (Aug 29, 2007)

Good video to dissect this one...

Throwing out a question for all us arm chair quarter backs ;-)

Cav appears ahead and most certainly deviated from his line, but as a I watched Hausler he had his chin up against his chest. How's he going to see anything like that? I can see sprinting like that on a trainer...but on the road?


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

It would be interesting to see their helmets after that crash. They sure took a good hit.


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

dougydee said:


> It would be interesting to see their helmets after that crash. They sure took a good hit.


There's a good example of why you wear helmets. You can see in the video how their head bounce off the pavement. If they had no protectection... oh boy...


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Wheel fail.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

1) There is definitely a problem with the HTC Scott's wheels. This is not the first time they have folded/failed this season.

2) Cav is not quite himself. IMO Haussler was going to beat him today. He needs to get back to what he was if he is to regain his edge. Too much showbiz and glamorous girlfriend is not a recipe for success.

3) HTC are missing George. They need a General.


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

i'm not an expert on sprinting but isnt drifting onto someone elses line a penalty? (freire's disqualification in the basque tour comes to mind). cav clearly cut coilek's line and it seems to me that he was crowding hausler because he was ahead of hausler so hausler couldnt have drifted into him. whatever it was reckless but thats sprinting. sucks for hausler trying to make a comeback but sympathy for cav


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## mjdwyer23 (Mar 18, 2009)

WOW just watched on VS, cav got slammed by boonen right after he went down. Gotta watch that again.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

mjdwyer23 said:


> WOW just watched on VS, cav got slammed by boonen right after he went down. Gotta watch that again.


Dude. Boonen was behind Cav, and actually ran Cav over on the ground because he couldn't stop. It was Haussler with the elbow action.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

Just watched this. Looks like the wheel failed causing the whole incident. What wheels were those?


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## agm2 (Sep 18, 2008)

Highroad labeled HED wheels


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## haikalah (Oct 5, 2004)

mjdwyer23 said:


> WOW just watched on VS, cav got slammed by boonen right after he went down. Gotta watch that again.


I saw the same thing. https://forums.roadbikereview.com/images/smilies/smile.gif


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

No one is at fault in this instance, its racing pure & simple. Its another one of those stupid race jury decisions to give Cav a penalty when Hausler was doing exactly the same thing resulting in the crash. No one should be penalized in this instance.

All you armchair athletes can pause & rewind the vid to the split second or what not & second guess who is at fault all you want. When its the end of the race & victory is on the line crashes are part of racing. Was that crash caused by a blatant deviation in Cav's line?? No. 

Ciolek ran out of gas. In essence, he became road furniture. Cav went left & HH went right to go around. When they both passed Ciolek, both riders drifted back towards the center without seeing each other. Thats racing & unfortunately crashes do happen. Hopefully no one is seriously injured.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

Was Hausler driving impaired again? Did they do a blood alcohol test?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

carbonLORD said:


> Just watched this. Looks like the wheel failed causing the whole incident. What wheels were those?


Haussler definitely t-boned the front wheel - Cav's elbow hit Haussler's bars, turning them both into each other. Amazingly, the wheel actually straightens back out - bent in half but didn't snap! (just watched the versus hd coverage on a 200-inch screen. hd projector) .


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

If you watch the video, Cav's front wheel actually springs back to shape, probably a little out of true though! I feel especially bad for Haussler. He's riding well and it looked like he might have taken that one.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

one thing that cant be disputed is that hausler drifted, but cav drifed a whole lot more and at a much more accute angle than hausler, cav takes majority of blame, hausler takes a little, and the rest is a racing incident, cavs penalty although completely pointless seems fair, its purely a token penalty, 30 sec penalty to a sprinter [pointless in a GC race like this!] dont know why they bothered with that one except to flag the blame.

Edit scratch that, from the overhead video only his relations would say it wasnt his [cav's] fault, night and day!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

muscleendurance said:


> one thing that cant be disputed is that hausler drifted, but cav drifed a whole lot more and at a much more accute angle than hausler, cav takes majority of blame, hausler takes a little, and the rest is a racing incident, cavs penalty although completely pointless seems fair, its purely a token penalty, 30 sec penalty to a sprinter [pointless in a GC race like this!] dont know why they bothered with that one except to flag the blame.


It ain't just a time penalty for Cav, Quoth VeloSnooze:



VN said:


> Cavendish is being sanctioned 25 points in the sprinter competition and 30 seconds on the general classification. He also is being fined 200 Swiss francs.


http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...ned-for-finale-crash-at-tour-de-suisse_121246

The sprinter-point deduction is what'll hurt....in addition to having Big Tom Boonen run over his neck, of course.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

200 swiss franks, lmao! :lol:


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

muscleendurance said:


> 200 swiss franks, lmao! :lol:


As with everything else, it is the thought that counts.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I don't think he will lose sleep over not winning the sprint competition at the Tour de Suisse. I also don't think he will have nightmares over the $175 fine.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

baker921 said:


> Seen this pic?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...spectacular-crash-at-Tour-of-Switzerland.html
> 
> ...


Not really sure on the cause of this one.


Edit: didn't see the post above mine. Oh well --- analyze it more.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Cavendish's fault entirely.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

albert owen said:


> 1) There is definitely a problem with the HTC Scott's wheels. This is not the first time they have folded/failed this season.
> 
> 2) Cav is not quite himself. IMO Haussler was going to beat him today. He needs to get back to what he was if he is to regain his edge. Too much showbiz and glamorous girlfriend is not a recipe for success.
> 
> 3) HTC are missing George. They need a General.


1) Yeah, Cav's front wheel was flexing like a wet noodle b/4 the crash.


2) From CN:


> Cavendish, unleashing what looked to be a race-winning acceleration, slammed into Haussler as the pair muscled past Milram's Gerald Ciolek, sending both riders tumbling to the pavement. Ciolek rammed the pair and also went down.


 Which is the way it looked to me as well.

3) Losing Hincapie was a huge setback for HTC and Marc in particular.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

muscleendurance said:


> Edit scratch that, from the overhead video only his relations would say it wasnt his [cav's] fault, night and day!


Yeah, Cav hit Haussler, which caused Haussler's wheel to turn into Cav's front wheel, which tacoed and then then the dominos fell. I feel sorry for Haussler who was just getting his form back.

Anyway, this is just bike racing, **** happens - especially in a full on sprint.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Dunno what Cav was thinking but his sprint required much more tarmac than the rest. That certainly caused the problems.

It sucks too, cause I would have loved to see the winner of that sprint. Haussler is a speedy little dude as well!


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm still amazed at how that front wheel flexed, but if you look at the video, by the time he and the bike go down, the rim looks relatively normal again.


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## litespeedchick (Sep 9, 2003)

No wonder Oscar Friere is a world champion...he's a cycling GOD!!! Watch the way he locks 'em down and slides that back wheel...avoids 3-4 bikes and stays up! Flecha is a close second the way he calmly threads the needle.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Andrew1 said:


> The ones placing the blame on Cav have probably never been in a real sprint. No one is at fault here. These moves happen every time and this time it came out badly.


Nah I've been in plenty of real sprints and it was totally Cav's fault, first he swerves through the pack to the left, then he sprints up the left looks over and sees Hussler coming and starts moving over toward him and then just runs in to Hussler (who is drifting a bit too) and drops himself Hussler and a bunch of other guys. Cav was all over the place in the sprint and its totally him who caused this mess.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

It certainly looks like it was a bad mix of Cav and Haussler, but I'd probably say ~60% of the blame is with Cav. 

I don't think I've seen Cav throw his bike side to side in a sprint like that before. Sure, he has squeezed people out in the past, but that bike was really flailing.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

spade2you said:


> It certainly looks like it was a bad mix of Cav and Haussler, but I'd probably say ~60% of the blame is with Cav.
> 
> I don't think I've seen Cav throw his bike side to side in a sprint like that before. Sure, he has squeezed people out in the past, but that bike was really flailing.


He *really* wanted that sprint and was pouring on the juice and using all the room he could get - and a little bit more than he could get.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Bottom line, it's bike racing. But after seeing the overhead view, I've got to lay this one on Cav's doorstep.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

spade2you said:


> It certainly looks like it was a bad mix of Cav and Haussler, but I'd probably say ~60% of the blame is with Cav.
> 
> I don't think I've seen Cav throw his bike side to side in a sprint like that before. Sure, he has squeezed people out in the past, but that bike was really flailing.


nope, 100% Cav's fault... see the trayectories here, Haussler was just holding his line and even riding away Cav











picture from www.velominati.com


https://www.velominati.com/blog/velominati-super-prestige/velominati-super-prestige-tour-de-suisse/


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Riders protest delaying stage 5

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/artic...endish-protest-26610?CPN=RSS&SOURCE=BRGENHOME


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*that sequence*



Salsa_Lover said:


> nope, 100% Cav's fault... see the trayectories here, Haussler was just holding his line and even riding away Cav



pretty much sums it up

and think how much extra distance Cav rode to do that

had he gone dead straight he'd have been meters ahead


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## Quixote (Aug 26, 2008)

I had no idea carbon could do that.








<br><br>


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> nope, 100% Cav's fault... see the trayectories here, Haussler was just holding his line and even riding away Cav


Well, cant argue with this overhead shot. The televised footage wasn't nearly as clear as this.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

gamara said:


> No one is at fault in this instance, its racing pure & simple. Its another one of those stupid race jury decisions to give Cav a penalty when Hausler was doing exactly the same thing resulting in the crash. No one should be penalized in this instance.
> 
> All you armchair athletes can pause & rewind the vid to the split second or what not & second guess who is at fault all you want. When its the end of the race & victory is on the line crashes are part of racing. Was that crash caused by a blatant deviation in Cav's line?? No.
> 
> Ciolek ran out of gas. In essence, he became road furniture. Cav went left & HH went right to go around. When they both passed Ciolek, both riders drifted back towards the center without seeing each other. Thats racing & unfortunately crashes do happen. Hopefully no one is seriously injured.


respectfully disagree. To answer your question, if Cav didn't blatently deviate from his line, the crash probably wouldn't have happened.

I've raced and sprinted a bit. Not at the top levels, though.

Cav shut down Ciolek and may have been trying to close down Hausler too. Yes its racing, and this is very often a part of sprinting, but doesn't mean Cav isn't at fault for this particular crash. Part of racing is pushing that boundry of what is clean and what isn't. This went over that line.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

I didn't need to see a replay to tell it was Cavs fault. At the very begining of the sprint he totally swung out wide cutting someone off, I don't know who, and allmost ran the guy into the barracade killing that guys sprint. Cav obviously just doesn't give a crap about anyone else. Even a Cat 5 knows not to do this stuff.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

The more you look at it the uglier it gets! If you look at the video about 200 yards out Hausler rides Cavendish almost into the LH barrier as we look at it, before swinging back right. Methinks there was a measure of payback from Cav and Ciolek was the unfortunate (slow) meat in the sandwich. Not an excuse or justification but Hausler was no innocent. I guess all the angels just ride at the back.


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

CRY BABY CAVENDISH got what was coming to him (AGAIN)

Nothing new here people. Move along.

JUST another CRY BABY stunt.

Karma baby... karma.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

A few posters said it: That's racing.

I'm not a Cav fanboy, but it really doesn't matter who drifted more/took the more acute angle. Both were drifting into each other. In a murder, you can't decide who to send to prison based on who stabbed/shot the victim the most. Both were involved, both bear the guilt.

Not sure of the rules, but I also find that Cav was being rational with his closing on Ciolek, who he was obviously out running - so it wasn't so much of a matter of blocking or interrupting his line. Looking at the trajectories (which sure as hell aren't perfect), I don't think Cav would even see Haussler (and vice-versa) as they were on two opposite sides of a train. 

The penalty on Cav is what I'd agree to be pointless but fair enough in the sense it's not ruining anything for him. I see this as another scenario of "lets just put it against the guy with the longer record of being a douche."


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

Salsa I love the overhead with the trajectories on it. Cav either lost his bearing on his line and he thought he was going straight or he was trying to get Haussler to slow down by distracting him and having Haussler deviate from his path giving Cav the right away to the line not that he really needed to do that. 
Point is Haussler stayed in a pretty much straight line toward the finish.


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

did anyone catch cav spitting at haussler? lol i love me some peloton drama


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## ronbo613 (Jan 19, 2009)

After watching the videos over and over; it's pretty clear that Cavendish first swerved to the right, almost running a rider into the barriers, then to the left, across half the road to shut down Ciolek and running into Haussler in the process. Seems like a pro cyclist should be able to steer a bike relatively straight, so my opinion is that he was swerving on purpose.
Cavendish is a fast sprinter, but what a dooshbag all the way around.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Just finished watching today's stage and Paul Sherwin was babbling on about how Haussler bumped into Cav! Did he even look at the overhead shots


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## mtbnutty (Feb 13, 2003)

spade2you said:


> Well, cant argue with this overhead shot. The televised footage wasn't nearly as clear as this.


We'll I'll argue it. That overhead is not directly overhead. It is slightly left of center (notice you can see the front of spectators on the right side).

My perspective is of the white paint. If the right side of the white paint is the center of the road (and it's not completely clear from the overhead), then it's Cav that keeps his line.


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## ETWN Stu (Feb 15, 2007)

200 euro fine is like him buying a cup of coffee. I thought you are supposed to be fined for bad sportsman ship?

Also the rumour is that Cav spat on HH when he got up (could be just rumour)


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> pretty much sums it up
> 
> and think how much extra distance Cav rode to do that
> 
> had he gone dead straight he'd have been meters ahead


Exactly.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

il sogno said:


> Exactly.


(1 - cos 3*Pi/180) = 0.001370465
tan 3*Pi/180 = 0.052407779

By drifting 5 meters to the side within 100 meters, he had to cover an extra 13.7 centimeters.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

sokudo said:


> (1 - cos 3*Pi/180) = 0.001370465
> 
> By drifting 3 meters to the side within 100 meters, he had to cover an extra 13.7 centimeters.


OMG LMAO!!! That is awesome....


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

sokudo said:


> (1 - cos 3*Pi/180) = 0.001370465
> tan 3*Pi/180 = 0.052407779
> 
> By drifting 5 meters to the side within 100 meters, he had to cover an extra 13.7 centimeters.


Good point, just curious where you got you numbers from (3 degrees).


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

AJL said:


> Good point, just curious where you got you numbers from (3 degrees).


An approximation. 
Assume 5 meter drift per 100 meters. In reality there was less than 5 m and likely more than 100 m. It does not really matter whether it was 3, 5 or 10 degrees, lim (sin x)/x | x->0 = 1 takes care of it  The well-known way the sinusoidal function behaves near zero made it so much fun to read the "exact" and very confident statements above.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

sokudo said:


> An approximation.
> Assume 5 meter drift per 100 meters. In reality there was less than 5 m and likely more than 100 m. It does not really matter whether it was 3, 5 or 10 degrees, lim (sin x)/x | x->0 = 1 takes care of it  The well-known way the sinusoidal function behaves near zero made it so much fun to read the "exact" and very confident statements above.


Very observant! Thanks for the math geek moment


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## brettok (Jun 18, 2010)

Salsa_Lover said:


> nope, 100% Cav's fault... see the trayectories here, Haussler was just holding his line and even riding away Cav
> 
> If you are going to steal content from our site, could you please at least credit us. Thanks.


www.velominati.com


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