# Preventing 1.5mm Spoke Twist



## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

I was lacing up a front rim with Laser and playing around with techniques to prevent spoke twist. Tried hexnuts, amoung other things. 
Came up with a pretty simple solution. Used a pair of 11" long reach needle nose pliers, holding the spoke on the flat parts closest to the jaw hinge. 

This technique worked great, using a Spokey 4 sided nipple wrench to turn the nipple, and holding the spoke just below it. 
I bought my long reach 11" pliers at a big box store years ago, but they are similar to these below. 








Due to the long levers on the handles, exerting high force on the spoke close to the jaw hinge, it is quite easy to hold and stop a spoke from twisting. Just make sure you don't get version of these that has wire cutter jaws next to the hinge. 

Build on.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Get yourself a pair of pliers with a right angled jaw. It'll be even easier to grip the spokes-they're bladed, right?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I say let them twist. Simple to do when you mark the spoke with a permanent marker. Just turn the spoke back to the original position when you are done. When the wheel is assembled, I get the marker off with acetone. This adds about 1 minute to the total wheel build.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Peter P. said:


> Get yourself a pair of pliers with a right angled jaw. It'll be even easier to grip the spokes-they're bladed, right?


These are the 2.0/1.5/2.0 mm round (non bladed) spokes. The 3 most popular versions are Sapim Laser, DT Revolution, or Wheelsmith XL14. 

These pliers cost maybe $12-14. when I bought them a while ago, but I see places like Harbor Freight have a $4-5 version.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

That looks like a great technique. I get easily confused as to how much I've actually turned the nipple when I have to over turn, trying not to over twist the spoke, then back off to return the mark to neutral. 







Probably advanced builders can make your technique happen easily, I'm not that good. 
I like to fix the spoke so I can dial in 1/4 turns with no rotation at all. Here's a pic of my pliers. I'm using black spokes, so need a white marker ((I use a slice cut from paper labels).

You can get the Rixen & Kaul version of the Spokey (that uses 2 metal plates versus others that use one) from VeloFred for $11.50 
KLICKfix Rixen & Kaul SPOKEY Professional 3,25


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

A better shot of the R&K Spokey here - highly recommended over the Park 2 sided spoke tools.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

You don't mar the spoke with that? Looks interesting. I use the DT spoke key and tool for bladed spokes. The Spoke key is a bit taller, but would still probably work.

FYI, I use a silver Sharpie on black spokes.


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## Bog (Feb 2, 2005)

I've built two wheels with Sapim Lasers and under the advice of a pro wheelbuilder didn't bother to try to stop them twisting at all. I just oiled the spoke threads and eyelets as normal and got any spoke wind-up out at the end by stress relieving thoroughly.

The stress relieving took slightly longer than a Sapim Race laced wheel but I didn't have any of the faff of trying to hold every spoke when tensioning. The wheels turned out fine and are still running true (Archetypes on Miche Primato hubs with Sapim Laser all round 24F/28R).


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

I'm with Ergott on this. No need for pliars. Once you've built with them a good bit you get a feel for how much they twist, you can feel it through the spoke wrench.

Overturn, then back off a bit. You should do this with 1.8mm butted spokes as well, they all wind up. The thinner spokes wind up more, so you need to overturn a bit further. Example:

Want to add 1/4 of a turn? Turn it 3/8 of a turn, then back 1/8th. There may still be a _bit_ of wind up, but it'll come out when stress relieving.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

ergott said:


> You don't mar the spoke with that? Looks interesting. I use the DT spoke key and tool for bladed spokes. The Spoke key is a bit taller, but would still probably work.
> 
> FYI, I use a silver Sharpie on black spokes.


That's a really nice setup for doing bladed spokes. Will go that way if I ever use them. 
I tried the silver pen on black, worked fine for me too. I used some tape head cleaner to remove, (no acetone here). Using that was more than a quick wipe, but agree - you need to mark it, and the smaller and quicker the mark is to get it on and off, the better. It also helps if the tension meter does not disturb it (like tape flags falling off). 

No, the pliers didn't mar the spoke for me. But I guess you could if you moved the handles up and down by mistake with some pressure. I added 2 layers of plastic tape (from a brother label machine) to mine. You could also glue/tape a thin veneer of hard maple or oak veneer to the jaws (they sell it for edging 3/4" plywood).


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

dgaddis1 said:


> I'm with Ergott on this. No need for pliars. Once you've built with them a good bit you get a feel for how much they twist, you can feel it through the spoke wrench.
> 
> Overturn, then back off a bit. You should do this with 1.8mm butted spokes as well, they all wind up. The thinner spokes wind up more, so you need to overturn a bit further. Example:
> 
> Want to add 1/4 of a turn? Turn it 3/8 of a turn, then back 1/8th. There may still be a _bit_ of wind up, but it'll come out when stress relieving.


I appreciate the tips on technique. I've built wheels with 1.8mm spokes before, but this is the first time using 1.5mm. For the 1.8mm, I used the technique you described, overturning and turning back, it worked fine. 
Maybe I'm over thinking this for 1.5mm round spokes. But I do see others have recommended things like these pliers before 
Wheel Building Tip No. 3 - Stop Spoke Wind Up - Wheel Fanatyk
and then there is that twist-resist tool, in L and R versions! 
Wheel Building and Truing Tools for Bicycles from Harris Cyclery

Plus all the warning about these 1.5mm round spokes on sites that sell them, as well as wheel building sites. Not to mention all the talk about how much easier CX-Ray are to build, as you can hold the spoke while building (and it seems everyone does).


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

Yeah, there's no right or wrong way to do it, so long as you get the windup out before riding them. I've tried pliars before (used a section of a tube as a cushion to prevent damaging the spoke), but I'm faster when I've got one hand free.

I do use the DT bladed spoke holder when working with bladed spokes though.


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## samh (May 5, 2004)

*1.5mm spoke twist*

Does it make any difference if nipples use spokeprep, oil, grease, etc?


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## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

I used motor oil on the threads, and even tho the spokes twisted a very little, with a little patience and de-stressing, they all went back to rest position with very little trouble.


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