# Whats the deal with the Open Pro fetish?



## Davoosie (Mar 17, 2007)

I've seen photos of bikes and have heard people on RBR talking about wheels with shimano/OpenPro and Campagnolo/Open Pro or whateverhub/Open Pro. I've never ridden them or have seen them in person, nobody I ride with or anybody at the LBS knows much about them. But it seems they have a cult following here on RBR.

So.... Whats the deal? Did I miss the boat on this one? I don't ride handbuilt clinchers only tubulars and the only clinchers I have are Campy pre-builts. Are these the end-all in mid-range handbuilts? strong? weak? cheap? light? Speaking of light, can anybody shed some on this for me?


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## RoyIII (Feb 24, 2007)

They are just economical, strong, all-round wheels. Your basic 32 (or36) 3 cross. I have four sets of OP wheels: one daytona, one chorus, one record, and one set with a white eno rear and formula front fixie hubs. They are hand-built and bullet proof. The worst crash I ever had the daytona wheels survived better than I did. I needed truing but the wheels did not. I have seen them as cheap as $375 a set, Excel comes in at about $425 or so on their wheel-builder wizard. They're great wheels. Kind of old school, like me!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Davoosie said:


> I've seen photos of bikes and have heard people on RBR talking about wheels with shimano/OpenPro and Campagnolo/Open Pro or whateverhub/Open Pro.
> So.... Whats the deal? Did I miss the boat on this one? Are these the end-all in mid-range handbuilts? strong? weak? cheap? light? Speaking of light, can anybody shed some on this for me?


While there may be stronger/lighter/heavier/more aerodynamic/more expensive/cheaper rims than OPs, those rims, to me anyway, are the benchmark in the rim world. They've been round for years and I've done many miles on mine (road and track) and have yet to have a problem. My oldest ones are 22 years old.

As a general all-round (is that a pun?) good value rim, they're just plain tough to beat.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

They are made out of maxtal (the same material ksyriums and cosmic carbonnes are made from)which mavic says is 30% stronger than 6106 aluminum used in most wheels.

http://www.mavic.com/road/products/Open-Pro.323926.aspx

I have a set with centaur hubs, 7 years old, thousands of miles, very durable....

http://www.mavic.com/road/technologies/Maxtal.2928.aspx


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## orbeamike (Nov 20, 2004)

Generally speaking with higher spoke counts (32 vs. most prebuilt wheels in the low 20s or less) each spoke holds less tension and that makes it a more compliant ride. An Ultegra hub laced to Open Pro weight between 800 to 900 grams front. It is comparable to pre-built wheels costing 2 to 3 times the price. 
If a spoke ever breaks it can be fixed by any shop with absolutely minimal down time.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

orbeamike said:


> An Ultegra hub laced to Open Pro weight between 800 to 900 grams front. It is comparable to pre-built wheels costing 2 to 3 times the price.
> If a spoke ever breaks it can be fixed by any shop with absolutely minimal down time.


I'd just like to read an objective account (that would solidify my opinion) that the Ultegra/Open Pro wheels are the match of any of the prebuilts. Except in the labeling, advertising claims and price departments of course.................


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## Cycle_Spice (Jun 28, 2006)

I have Open Pros that I laced Dura-Ace hubs into (fixed/fixed) on the rear - tough rim!


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## roadboy (Apr 1, 2003)

I think people feel that buying a mega dollar pre built wheelset must be better than some old school handbuilts. I have many riding buddies that tell me my wheelset is old school, even though my White industries/velocity/revo spoke wheelset comes in under 1500 grams and cost a lot less than there wheels did. 
I even had someone comment that my carbon road bike would look better with some pre built mavics or fulcrums. They to had probably never ridden a good set of hand built wheels.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Aerohead fetish*



Davoosie said:


> I've seen photos of bikes and have heard people on RBR talking about wheels with shimano/OpenPro and Campagnolo/Open Pro or whateverhub/Open Pro. I've never ridden them or have seen them in person, nobody I ride with or anybody at the LBS knows much about them. But it seems they have a cult following here on RBR.
> 
> So.... Whats the deal? Did I miss the boat on this one? I don't ride handbuilt clinchers only tubulars and the only clinchers I have are Campy pre-builts. Are these the end-all in mid-range handbuilts? strong? weak? cheap? light? Speaking of light, can anybody shed some on this for me?


The OpenPro is a good rim. So is the Velocity Aerohead (my personal fetish), which is available in an OC so you can build a stronger rear wheel. The reality is this: until you get into the CF "super wheels" you are not getting ANY performance improvements from factory boutique wheels like MAVIC Ksyrium, etc. You get: bling factor; proprietary spokes, hubs, and rims; perhaps the requirement for a 2-3 week turnaround for repair; and a whole lot more $$ for purchase. None of this offers any actual benefit compared to a Chorus/DuraAce hub and a Velocity Aerohead or OpenPro rim. 

I would suggest that those with an Aerohead/OpenPro "fetish" have simply analyzed the available information and reached a logical conclusion. Simple as that.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Just about every bike I own has Aerohead or Open Pro rims laced to Dura Ace hubs.. My favorite wheels.. 

If I want colored rims, I go with Aerohead. If I want standard silver or black, I go with Open Pro... 

I have a new set of track/fixie wheels being delivered next week. They are white Aerohead laced to Dura Ace 7700 track hubs..I can't wait


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Davoosie said:


> I've seen photos of bikes and have heard people on RBR talking about wheels with shimano/OpenPro and Campagnolo/Open Pro or whateverhub/Open Pro.


They are sold at very low prices by places like Performance and others. The retail price of the built wheels is below the normal *wholesale* price of the parts. They are more durable than most factory wheels and they are a great value. Apparently Shimano, Campy, and Mavic are giving super deals to certain large retailers. 

The Open Pro is a fine rim, but if you are building your own or getting customs there are probably better options. For one thing it would be nice not to look like all the wheels from Performance or Excel...


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## cyclust (Sep 8, 2004)

I second all the comments above. Open Pro's are wheels for the lunchbucket crowd. They work. Very well. Depite all the efforts of wheel gurus around trhe world, the basic dynamic structure of a 32 hole, 3 cross built wheel is very hard to beat. It's not unlike a geo dome building. Maybe someday well all be back riding what was a given 20 years ago, and everyone will laugh at all the funky minimalistic spoke patterned wheels "from the 2000's" And I'll still be riding my OP's


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

If your bike shop doesn't know what Open Pro rims are, I'd start looking for another bike shop... I mean, unless it's a BMX shop. Vvariations of the Open Pro has been around since at least 1990--and they've been a staple ever since. If you're shop hasn't heard of them, who knows what else they're missing out on. It doesn't seem like they can give sound recommendations if they don't even keep themselves informed.


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

i agree. it's strange not to know what a mavic open pro is. it's the "101" of wheelbuilding.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I don't understand the fetish either. I've used Open Pros before. My reaction...meh.


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## funktekk (Jul 29, 2006)

when I first got my bike the LBS owner had a set of Aeroheads built for me. I thought I had been riding a crap wheel... then I started doing some research, looking for a wheel upgrade, when I realized I was going to have to layout a brand new frame worth of cash to get a wheelset that is marginally better.


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## ukiahb (Jan 26, 2003)

FWIW the predecessors, Open4CD rims are also excellent, have used them for loaded touring with a total load of 280 lbs and they held up fine


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## pkgdave9144 (Nov 21, 2006)

Open Pro's were great.....like 20 years ago. Now we have so many better options out there. 

Reynolds 531 bikes were great too. So were 32 hole 3x wheels. 

Remeber the guys who told you 8 speed was foolish? Then they said 9 speed was foolish.....and so on.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

pkgdave9144 said:


> Open Pro's were great.....like 20 years ago. Now we have so many better options out there.
> 
> Reynolds 531 bikes were great too. So were 32 hole 3x wheels.
> 
> Remeber the guys who told you 8 speed was foolish? Then they said 9 speed was foolish.....and so on.


Guys with 7-speed down tube shifters on steel bikes still kick my a$$, but then I only have 9-speed on Ti. If I go to 10-speed on carbon, will I be able to beat them? - TF


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

TurboTurtle said:


> Guys with 7-speed down tube shifters on steel bikes still kick my a$$, but then I only have 9-speed on Ti. If I go to 10-speed on carbon, will I be able to beat them? - TF



Yes. Carbon is faster than ti no matter who the rider.

-Eric


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

The only time I really like using OP is for the ceramic brake track. Some riders need this because of the conditions they ride in. Other than that, If I want lower weight, the Alex R400 gets my nod and if I want real stout, I'd rather the DT R1.1 with double eyelets.

-Eric


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Why the fascination with water, or food, or sleep?

You've got the question backwards, IMO. Group hubs and OP rims are the standby, the industry standard, the 'old reliable,' the way things used to be It's more appropriate to think of Ksyriums, deep-dish carbon tubulars, or low paired spoke count wheels as the fetish.

But either way you draw the lines, it's just a simple, reliable, cheap, easily repairable way to make a bike wheel. For all the obsession we have with the latest and greatest wheelsets, the raw performance difference is really pretty small. If you are riding for money or simply like to fantasize about it, the technologically 'advanced' wheels might have a place. But except for TT-like conditions, race strategy (such as where in the pack you ride and when you take the front) has far more impact than any wheel choice ever will. And if there's not a clock or a finish line, it matters absolutely not at all. 

If you are training, or laying down lots of miles a fair distance from home, simple, reliable wheels made from industry-standard components makes a lot of sense. That's the OP argument.


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## android (Nov 20, 2007)

pkgdave9144 said:


> Open Pro's were great.....like 20 years ago. Now we have so many better options out there.
> 
> Reynolds 531 bikes were great too. So were 32 hole 3x wheels.


The marketing driven sheep...

When will they ever realize that "different" and "better" are not the same thing?


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## pkgdave9144 (Nov 21, 2006)

Ya know what... go ahead and keep rolling your open pros. 

The guy down the street from me has a 1982 Chevy Caprice (remember the old cop cars?) he will swear its the the best car ever. Yes, its fast, yes, its tough, yes, its easy to work on and easy to get parts for. He thinks we are crazy to have "new fangled cars" that are no better than his. He can come up with many reasons why new stuff is no good.

We just politely smile and wave to him.

So I'll just politely smile and wave to the Open Pro/32x guys.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

pkgdave9144 said:


> So I'll just politely smile and wave to the Open Pro/32x guys.


Can you quantify (weight, power saving, cost) of your wheel choice versus OP/32h wheels?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> Can you quantify (weight, power saving, cost) of your wheel choice versus OP/32h wheels?


Well weight and cost is easy.

They is NOTHING wrong with a DA/Ultegra/Record/Chorus build with Mavic Open Pros 32h. Thes are well respected and nice quality box rims.

But advancements in technology have allowed lower count wheels to be lighter, stronger and more aero. Is that better? Maybe not depending on your riding and your BIKE.

I don't think 20/24 30mm Aero wheels look that reat on a Old School Lugged Steel bike. Nor would OP/32 look great on the fancy new CF rides.

These would look like crap on my bikes. Even my aluminum SCOTT with those oversized tubes.

Now if I ever were to race crits, that's the wheels I wuld run on any machine. Cheap and easy to replace. Then again I might go with DT Swiss or Noibium rims in a similar 28/32h build. These probaly make one of the most cost effective race wheels unless you need aero ones. Hell Performance is selling Ultegra/OP for $199 in Silver.

Again nothing wrong with Mavic OP32 builds. But I like DT Swiss box rims better and the KinLin Noibium rims are just as nice. I don't need or want a 32/32 or 28/32 builds on box rims.

Again to each his own. But cost wise and durability wise a OP/32 build id hard to beat. Then again my 104 lbs wife these would be overkill!

Now when I build that neo-retro lugged steel ride, Chorus/DT 1.1 in a 28/32h build might be my choice.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

> Davoosie said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen photos of bikes and have heard people on RBR talking about wheels with shimano/OpenPro and Campagnolo/Open Pro or whateverhub/Open Pro. I've never ridden them or have seen them in person, nobody I ride with or anybody at the LBS knows much about them. But it seems they have a cult following here on RBR.
> ...


Could be the avg age here on RBR. I think the older group here stick with a tried and true basic wheelsets. Those classic bikes also look better with this style wheels. The younger crowd has grwon up with the fancy low spoke/aero wheels and seem to lean this way more as well. Again it depends on your bike and the look you want.

A OP/32h wheels and not as light or aero as some other wheels today. Is this lighter/aero wheels better for everyone or needed? Maybe not...

Again it comes down to looks. Plus there are also other fantastic box rims besides Mavic.

I hav also noticed over the years that smaller botique builders no longer prefer Mavic. I think in part it has to do with Mavic screwing over the little guys. More and more builders no longer need Mavic as other high quality rims have come out. Also Mavic dones not seem to care about rims anymore like they use to. Just factory wheels from what I hear. But the OP is still one of there best produced rims.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

pkgdave9144 said:


> Ya know what... go ahead and keep rolling your open pros.
> 
> The guy down the street from me has a 1982 Chevy Caprice (remember the old cop cars?) he will swear its the the best car ever. Yes, its fast, yes, its tough, yes, its easy to work on and easy to get parts for. He thinks we are crazy to have "new fangled cars" that are no better than his. He can come up with many reasons why new stuff is no good.
> 
> ...


There's a guy in our group that insists on high-end factory wheels for his regular rider. 

We just wave and laugh our butts off when we ride past, as he sits waiting for his wheels to convalesce at the bike shop. 

Of course, we pretty much wave politely as we pass him anyway - it's not like the wheels make him a lick faster when they are operational.

You have to realize that there's no such thing as 'better', just 'better for a particular situation.'

A better analogy might be: If you were going on a cross-country trip, would you rather take a Ferrari Enzo or the Toyota that's in the garage? One would be more comfortable, hold your luggage, be tons more reliable, and anyone could repair and would be back on the road in an instant should anything go wrong. Oh yeah, and they'll end up going the same speed as that Ferrari, laws (of man for the cars, of physics for the bikes) being what they are. 

OK, so it wouldn't be quite as sexy. But It's not as if da wimmins is going to be tossing their panties because you spent so much on wheels that you can't afford to buy them a drink.

And those 'better' wheels - are you actually sure they are, and if so, by enough to mean anything at all? If we're talking about weight, it's an easy matter of division to see that a couple hundred grams out of the hundred thousand or so you're pushing down the road has very little effect. 

And as for aero, not just a few wheels that are sold as 'aero' are in fact worse than a 'classic' build. The difference between the worst and the most aerodynamic was about 17 watts, as measured at 31mph. At a more realistic for everyday solo riding 20mph, that's about 5 watts, roughly three percent, or inside of the measurement error for any system you'd care to use to gauge it, and nothing compared to a blue bazillion other changes you'd care to make. 

FWIW, most folks I know that have 32x3 OP wheels also have several sets of what you'd call 'better' wheels around too, and use them for the situations where they provide an advantage. It's not like we're religious zealots or marketing-induced zombies - really, exactly the opposite.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

danl1 said:


> There's a guy in our group that insists on high-end factory wheels for his regular rider.
> 
> We just wave and laugh our butts off when we ride past, as he sits waiting for his wheels to convalesce at the bike shop.
> 
> ...


I guess were are lucky around here. Almost every mid to higher level shop carries Mavic and Campagnolo spokes on had. I broke a spoke on a Mavic Crossmax MTB wheels once. Ok, the spoke was $5 but they had them there and it was fixed for $10.

Otherwise it was 3-5 days to get a size if they needed.

Also alot of these factory wheels now use a basic bladed spoke that you can get anywhere.

I am hoping for I9 to realse their Road hubs soon. If I buy buid some custom road wheels with their hubs, I will be SURE to get a few extra of thsoe special puppies.

Then again I have only broke 1 road spoke and 2 MTB spokes in the last 12 yrs.


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## GiantNigel (Apr 15, 2005)

cyclust said:


> I second all the comments above. Open Pro's are wheels for the lunchbucket crowd. They work. Very well. Depite all the efforts of wheel gurus around trhe world, the basic dynamic structure of a 32 hole, 3 cross built wheel is very hard to beat. It's not unlike a geo dome building. Maybe someday well all be back riding what was a given 20 years ago, and everyone will laugh at all the funky minimalistic spoke patterned wheels "from the 2000's" And I'll still be riding my OP's


Another agreement. To me, they're plain-vanilla rims. Not aero at all, but quite strong and will last and last. That said, when I rode them years back, I suffered from the "Open Pro Click," which was that the pin used to hold them together while they're being permanently put together came loose and clicked loud enough to be heard by anyone around whenever I rode them.

I haven't ridden them in years and probably wouldn't again. I've moved onto other wheels that are both strong and more aerodynamic (Ritchey Protocol Ltds.) and a new set of Mavic Cosmic Carbone Premiums for better aerodynamics (and a MUCH better feel on the road, as it turns out).

OPs are basic rims that do a good job but don't have anything special except durability going for them (meaning not light, not aero, not bling)--not that there's anything wrong with that.


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## towerscum (Mar 3, 2006)

*$$$$$*

I have two pairs of OP rimed wheels, Yes there are wheels that are a little lighter but at what cost? Try at least twice. Go ahead and buy a set of OPs from Performance and see what you get. The same thing if they were building the Mavic Carbon sets. Junk. As far as RIDE is concerned,I would be willing to do a head to head any time. My correctly,handbuilt OP Campy wheels against any $1500 pre made set. There is only one thing dumber than $1500 wheels... $2000 carbon wheels. Yes,I'm old.


towerscum


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## Cycle_Spice (Jun 28, 2006)

Like everyone says 36 hole Open Pros with Dura Ace. MMMMMM Fast


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## bigman (Nov 30, 2004)

You need a new LBS!


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

*The infamous tick*

The herd hasn't mentioned the dark side...the infamous Open Pro tick. It happens when the little piece of metal inside the rim where its pinned lets go and you get a constant "ticking" sound until you or your LBS can squeeze it back into place. Never had that with a prebuilt.


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## Davoosie (Mar 17, 2007)

bigman said:


> You need a new LBS!


Hardly, my LBS caters to the higher-end road riders so most of the wheels that pass through are easton, Camagnolo(TM), zipp and a small mix of everything else. Not too many mavics are bought seperate.

Personally I ride Record/Nemesis on road, I get a good 32hole indistructable handbuilt sew-up under 1,400g for about $450.

I never really liked mavic wheels or rims that much, the ones I rode seemeb a bit soft.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

danl1 said:


> FWIW, most folks I know that have 32x3 OP wheels also have several sets of what you'd call 'better' wheels around too, and use them for the situations where they provide an advantage. It's not like we're religious zealots or marketing-induced zombies - really, exactly the opposite.


At one point recently, I had 8 or so pairs of wheels. Several Reflex/OP wheels for training, First gen Cosmics for aero, Ritchey Pros for 'all round go fast' Zipp 404 for both road and track, etc. 

The wheels I rode most? my Reflex/Mavic 501-571/2 wheels. Simple, durable, cheep to fix 'in case.' Raced on either the Ritcheys or the Zipps depending. 
Cosmics were heavy, so I saved em for courses with not a lot of sudden accelerations.

I don't see the need to ride $1000 wheels as 'everyday' wheels when the time I spend noodling along in Zone 2 don't require em.

M


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

I have a set of Mavic Open Pro 32h laced with DTswiss Competition Spokes, and Chris King Classic Front and Rear hubs. 3cross, 32 spokes each wheel

Front wheel came in to 704 grams
Rear wheel came in to 859 grams

Total weight of 1563 grams. Which I believe is lighter than many high end high production wheels from Campy, Fulcrum, Shimano, and Mavic.

I used my old Chris King hubs from my mountain bike as I had moved over to disc brakes. I felt bad having a perfectly good set of Chris King hubs sitting around doing nothing so I made myself what I believe will be a good touring and training wheelset. Combined with some continental Gator Skins they are the wheelset that sees the most kilometer. My other wheelset being a Tune, Spaim CX-ray, Reynolds DV46C build.


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## ralph1 (May 20, 2006)

*OP wheels*

I got my wheel builder to lace up a set of DA 7800 hubs to OP 36 rims, best wheel I have owned for training:thumbsup: . I stepped up from a set of DA 7700 hubs and CXP33 32 rim combo, much better. I also luv my "bling" wheels as well (Mavic ES and Cosmic Carbone) but I use these for racing, or if I want to ride something different every now and then .

cheers

Ralph


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## Pieter (Oct 17, 2005)

*The way to go*

A year ago I was happy with my 7 year old, 15000 mile 10kg aluminium bike with 32 spoke box rims (Alex DR13), plain old 2mm spokes and 105 hubs. 

Then the bug bit and I thought : why not fit an affordable built set (like Aksium)? 
One thing led to another and I ended up buying a carbon Schwinn Peloton - complete with Aksiums.

It was dazzling to me, but after a 6 month honeymoon I realized that my old bike was still somewhat more responsive feeling in some ways - into corners esp. And the top speed down my favourite hills was no better than before.

Two weeks ago I ran into an oblique head wind on a long descent. I had a job keeping the show on the road and out of the way of other traffic.

By this time I had also noticed the new wheels are not exactly featherweight compared to the old ones. So I decided to just 'feel' the old bike's wheels on the Schwinn. I got a shock on changing the tires around : the old wheels were lighter by 50-100 grams each. 

I searched the net and realized the cheap DR13's I bought on price way back then, weigh only 410g each. It seems in the meantime, similar light rims have gone out of fashion save for (principally) the Mavic Open Pro.

I got another shock on putting the show on the road. Light feeling, responsive and - the Schwinn finally showed me what the carbon frame can really do for ride. 

I took both wheels on controlled coastdown rides on downhills - drove myself to distraction and changed wheels dozens of times. But yep, I am convinced there is no aero advantage one way or the other.

So : I will soon build a set of Alexrims R400's onto 105 hubs with DT swiss 2.0 / 1.8mm spokes. I will save 150 - 200 grams. Most importantly the mass saving will be IN THE RIM where it is felt most. The wheels will weigh about the same as the cheaper echelons of 'boutique' wheels with :

1) fewer spokes hence heavier rims, more sluggish feel
2) 'cosmetic only' aero qualities, in sidewinds even worse
3) aluminum sprocket splines (yuck)
4) higher price
5) less stiffness despite higher spoke tension (see 1)
6) worse ride (see 5)
7) more expensive fixing / servicing
8) heavy stress on the front hub with its tight, radial spokes - requiring straight pull ones and maybe oversize hub

And the new ones will be less bling but more exclusive!

The 32 spoke built up way, using Open Pro or whatever, is far from dead. I would like to try 28 spokes but the gains would be marginal and rims are unobtainable here.

The LBS does not share this view, is horrified and will probably ban me for defacing my bike. But this is my 2 cents worth and I feel my enjoyment of the bike justifies it.


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## rupenaik (Apr 30, 2007)

towerscum said:


> I have two pairs of OP rimed wheels, Yes there are wheels that are a little lighter but at what cost? Try at least twice. Go ahead and buy a set of OPs from Performance and see what you get. The same thing if they were building the Mavic Carbon sets. Junk. As far as RIDE is concerned,I would be willing to do a head to head any time. My correctly,handbuilt OP Campy wheels against any $1500 pre made set. There is only one thing dumber than $1500 wheels... $2000 carbon wheels. Yes,I'm old.
> 
> 
> towerscum


does performance not build these wheels well?


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## cyclust (Sep 8, 2004)

I recently read an article about aero wheels and it said that the so called aero wheels have no measureable advantage under 25 mph, and little under 30mph. So unless you can maintain those speeds solo, just figure your high zoot aero wheels are good for bling and bling alone. Oh, and lightening your wallet. Of course lighter, now that is better!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

A great post Pieter and your findings are what I've always suspected.

In my old-fashioned retro opinion, these factory wheels are popular because of high-dollar advertising and because they're very visible on (sponsored!) pro's bikes, not out of any tangible benefit unless we're willing to buy actual performance in truly lighter or more aero wheels.

A lot of buyers would get major shocks if they actually weighed their low spoke count wheels and compared them to the venerable but oh-so-boring Ultegra/OP wheels. After all, a wheel has got to support x-amount of weight and if they reduce from 32 to 16 or twenty spokes then something has go to make up the strength hasn't it? And that weight is in the worst possible place.

Factor in the "unobtanium" spokes versus the $0.75 variety available at mom & pop bike shops everywhere and what really is the benefit of these boutique wheels other than to make huge profits for someone?


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Mavic Askiums are neither lighter or better... they are also often less expensive than the typical OpenPro/Ultegra wheelset. They are total crap. I would be more surprised if you had come to a different conclusion... even if you were a fan of factory wheels.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

In the wheel closet I have a set of Wheelsmith built OP/Ultegra 32 3X (for the rain Bike)
Mavic Cosmos (which use a rebranded OP rims)
Mavic Ksyrium Elite
Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL2
and Reynolds DV46C (deep section carbon clinchers)

The OPs are great for a commuter/winter training/rain bike because you don't have to worry about them. The Cosmos are the same double wall box section rim built 24 radial in the front and 28 3X rear. These are lighter and every bit as strong as the OP/Ultegra. The Elites are a good reasonably priced (usually cheaper than OP/Ultegra) wheel perfect for crits. 

The last two wheelsets simply much better than all the others. The SL's are bombproof, lighter and yes, more aero. Perfect for group training rides, the one downside is their susceptibilty to crosswinds. The Reynolds are a great clincher for road racing. Strong, aero light.

It's a matter of horses for courses. The OP's are simply workhorses for those days when you are willing to sacrifice everything for durabilty.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

Davoosie said:


> Hardly, my LBS caters to the higher-end road riders so most of the wheels that pass through are easton, Camagnolo(TM), zipp and a small mix of everything else. Not too many mavics are bought seperate.


I think you are missing the point... The reason you need a new LBS is b/c if they haven't even HEARD of Mavic Open pro rims then they are out to lunch. 

I can't even imagine a bike shop mechanic not even _knowing _the word "Mavic Open Pro." *The truth of the matter is that he probably knows all about them, and that they can be had for $300 for a set with Dura Ace hubs, but he would much rather sell you a $3000 set of Zipps. *


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

ewitz said:


> In the wheel closet I have a set of Wheelsmith built OP/Ultegra 32 3X (for the rain Bike)
> Mavic Cosmos (which use a rebranded OP rims)
> Mavic Ksyrium Elite
> Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL2
> ...


Ult/OP's sure are workhorse wheels. Recently my Ult/OP's survived me jamming a chain down between the cassette and the spokes while grinding up a 15%+ hill. Chewed the heck out of the drive-side spokes but was able to complete that tour without even needing to re-true the wheel. Not sure a low spoke count aero wheel would have survived that disaster intact. 
The DV46C seems like a solid race wheel- among the most aero clinchers. 
Not sure I agree that the SL2's are significantly more aero than the Elite's, though. I know good aero testing of wheels is difficult, but most stuff I've seen suggests the recent Elite/Equipe design is at least as aero as the ES/SL group. http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html 
This is NOT to claim the former are better wheels (ES/SL line is lighter & stiffer- and better finished), just that aero is pretty similar across the Ksyrium line.


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## KeeponTrekkin (Aug 29, 2002)

*What makes a good wheel?*

Light weight, Durable, Inexpensive -choose 2.

I like the comment about different horses for different courses. Different wheels are designed for different purposes and therefore optimize different characteristics. The OP based wheel isn't optimized for highest performance, but it does not fall far short.

A wheel is choices of rims, spokes and hubs. Rims are choices of design and materials. Spokes and nipples are choices of materials. Hubs are choices of materials and design.

Metalurgy is a pretty mature field. You don't expect dramatic developments in metalurgy for rims, spokes or hubs. Carbon Fiber (and related) is just beyond infancy in bike wheels but shows lots of promise for light weight and durability (note the absence of low cost; maybe that will come later?)

If you exclude carbon products from the discussion, pretty much every quality wheelset will weigh within a few hundred grams of each other and you'll see the weight vs. cost relationship. For many, the benefits of non-traditional wheels justify the costs and tradeoffs. For some, the benefits are perceived to be great. For most, the differences are hard to notice. 

The OP rim (or Aerohead or DT Swiss, etc.) makes a reliable, durable and economic wheel. It's one of the few wheels where you get to choose all 3 characteristics.


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## brentthetank (Mar 13, 2008)

The past 2 sets of wheels I've built for myself have been with the Mavic O.P. Record Hubs, DT 2.0-1.8 db spokes. They're just a fine rim. Mavic got it right a long time ago :thumbsup:


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## Pieter (Oct 17, 2005)

I would love a set of ZIPP's or HED or Blackburn or whatever - wouldn't we all? Scientifically researcehd and designed aero and lightweight using advanced materials and construction - of course they are an advance in performance. 

But figure the cost and how and where you ride, and the probable absence of a sponsor...

I think the Aksium is excellent for what is is supposed to be and do. Anyone who buys an aksium--equipped midpriced bike without having experienced lighter rims should be well pleased. It looks good - sort of Ksyrium-like, which is probably the whole idea. And it should last well with most sizes of rider in the saddle.


'Downgrading' to 32 spoke wheels is not cheap! Over here (ZA), two 105 hubs (getting rarer) can go for $125. DA is more than twice that, Ultegra is somewhere in between but too close to 105 in real worth anyway. The wheels can cost $275 all told.

Aksiums are listed at $290 but I have seen deals as low as $210. In 2007, a set of used ones fetched up to $300, nowadays a 2007 set is offered for only $170...

So 'downgrading' from 6 month old Aksium to new 32 spoke built Alex can cost me $100. And it will probably reduce the resale value of my bike by 3 times that har har !!!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

cyclust said:


> I recently read an article about aero wheels and it said that the so called aero wheels have no measureable advantage under 25 mph, and little under 30mph. So unless you can maintain those speeds solo, just figure your high zoot aero wheels are good for bling and bling alone. Oh, and lightening your wallet. Of course lighter, now that is better!


BS... and BS. Where did you see this article?


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

rruff said:


> BS... and BS. Where did you see this article?



i remember reading that "factoid". iirc, the quote was, and i paraphrase, aero wheels under 30mm in height have minimal gains- not the full monte like zipps and others.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

r_mutt said:


> i remember reading that "factoid". iirc, the quote was, and i paraphrase, aero wheels under 30mm in height have minimal gains- not the full monte like zipps and others.


I have read similar stuff, but have always found that hard to believe from a scientific perspective. Aerodynamics is not a "step-wise" function but a curve/continuum. OTOH- "minimal" is subjective. Gaining a fraction of an mph on a solo training ride is pretty meaningless, but that could be important in getting on the podium for a local cat5 40k TT.

The Sep '05 TOUR mag wheel testing article stated they found "measurable differences" among wheels at 30kph (18.75mph), and those differences obviously were greater at higher speeds.
Zipp web site also has some downloadable tech articles on their wind tunnel wheel testing. 
Data published by TOUR and Zipp claim the aero advantage between conventional "box rim" wheels and decent deep-rimmed to be up to 25-30 watts at about 30mph (depending on testing conditions like wind angle,etc.), which calculates to over a 1 min reduction in 40k TT @ 300W ave power. Run the numbers on cycling power math models (e.g. Analytic cycling website or Machinehead's software) suggests an advantage for the recreational rider of about 0.2mph at 18mph. To the best of my knowledge, this comparison is "worst-to-best" wheel scenario: Zipp 808 (or similar) vs 32 round spokes on a short (14mm) true box rim (e.g. Mavic'sGL330). 

I would love to see some aero data on OP-based wheels since that has become today's standard "box" rim. The OP is 18.4mm (Mavic spec) tall with an arched shape so it should be SLIGHTLY more aero that a GL330. How would the OP laced with 24 modern oval spokes (CXray) test out??


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## John Nelson (Mar 10, 2006)

My OP/Ultegra 32h 3x rear wheel ran true and never required any adjustment for 8,000 miles, right up to the day one of the nipples pulled through the rim last month.


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## pkgdave9144 (Nov 21, 2006)

John Nelson said:


> My OP/Ultegra 32h 3x rear wheel ran true and never required any adjustment for 8,000 miles, right up to the day one of the nipples pulled through the rim last month.


8,000 miles? 

During racing season, many cat 3 and up racers will do 8,000 miles in a summer! 

Are you saying you are happy with the 8,000 miles?

I can count 3 or 4 local guys that must have 30-40k miles on wheels. None are handbuilts.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

pkgdave9144 said:


> I can count 3 or 4 local guys that must have 30-40k miles on wheels. None are handbuilts.


30 to 40K on a pair of wheels? That is amazing. I have put a little over 20,000 miles on old set of CXPs but they were toast- kept coming untrue and the nipple wholes had a lot of play in them, and I had a major overhaul on the hub at around 12,000 miles. I can't imagine getting 40,000 miles on a set of wheels with out having to replace the hubs, or rims at some point.


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## pkgdave9144 (Nov 21, 2006)

Not really that odd. I wonder if its more an age of the rim thing or miles. Figure, an average of 70 miles per ride, 5-6 days a week in the summer. Some rides 100-120 miles, others 50-70 with speedwork. Figure one race per week (different wheels)

Thats like 2,000 miles per month. Certainly not even slightly out of the ordinary for an upper-category racer. 

My race wheels alone see 100-200 miles per week during the crit season. 

Makes me think that the age of the rim has more/equal of an effect than miles. That, and maybe rain riding.

My current training wheels (Shimano 7801 prebuilts) have around 5 or 6k on them. I can still see the grooves in the sidewall. I cant imagine them being shot by 10k miles. Pretty sure they would last 30-40k miles.

Here is from the Tour of Cali :

_The 136 elite athletes competing in this year’s Amgen Tour of California typically ride their bikes twice as many miles as the average person drives their car each year. Pro cyclists put between 20,000-25,000 training and racing miles into their legs per annum. That’s a whole lot of time in the saddle so like athletes in any sport, it begins with training. _

http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/Peloton/TNT-corner/life-of-a-pro.html


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Oldteen said:


> I would love to see some aero data on OP-based wheels since that has become today's standard "box" rim. The OP is 18.4mm (Mavic spec) tall with an arched shape so it should be SLIGHTLY more aero that a GL330. How would the OP laced with 24 modern oval spokes (CXray) test out??


This might give you an idea:


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

rruff-

Thanks for the graph. I've seen it before but was wondering if anyone knew of specific WT testing of OP's. Don't recall that those 2 graph data point just under 20mm rim depth were OP's, though I could be wrong.

Re- 30-40k mile wheels- I'm sure a few exist out there, but I bet that would probably not be typical. Between road hazards, rain, improper/infrequent maintenance, etc I would guess few wheels make it that far in real life. No doubt some amateur racers do 10k+ miles/yr training but most I know of who ride that many annual miles (or more) replace (or at least major overhaul) wheels at least annually. Top sponsored riders may get multiple wheelsets on loan/trial each year over their 20-25k miles of training/racing. 
Now if I can only get Zipp to sponsor me for local club rides.........


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## Pieter (Oct 17, 2005)

*Why only 8000 miles?*

How do you get an OP's spoke holes to fail after only 8,000 miles??


Even my eyelet-less cheap and quite light Araya front rim, fitted in 1991 to a 1988 Cannondale, has survived 40,000 miles of mostly commuting and downright abuse.


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## drewmcg (Sep 19, 2005)

ralph1 said:


> I got my wheel builder to lace up a set of DA 7800 hubs to OP 36 rims, best wheel I have owned for training:thumbsup: . I stepped up from a set of DA 7700 hubs and CXP33 32 rim combo, much better. I also luv my "bling" wheels as well (Mavic ES and Cosmic Carbone) but I use these for racing, or if I want to ride something different every now and then .
> 
> cheers
> 
> Ralph


How are they "much better." Since this is a thread on OP rims, I assume the rims are "much better," but how? The CXP33 seems to have a lot of fans as well, especially for larger riders.


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