# traffic ticket #2



## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Tonight I got nabbed for going through a red light. Again, it was such a quiet intersection I didn't even notice the light; did the usual pause and check. _Zero_ traffic.

Except for the cop, of course  I hesitated handing over my license, b/c I have a hearing date for the other one. But I did anyway, when he didn't want to take my work ID. Figured what the hell, he'd look up my name and find me either way.

As I forked it over, I realized my helmet light was shining on him, so I nervously tried to shut it off, but it took a few tries. "That's a nice light," he said, and I said it really is a good one. "I say that b/c I'm a cyclist too." 

"Do you have any outstanding warrants or citations?" he asked, and I 'fessed up. "Well.......yes, the hearing isn't until next year, though." He mulled over my record and said, "Well, I pulled you over for going through the red light, as you probably know."

"Oh I understand, it's just hard to stop while going up that hill, and there was no traffic....." I thought, man I'm screwed, now he's seeing that I'm a repeat offender. 

“You have to be careful, you know, a woman just got killed not far from here…….after something like that, the city usually cracks down on cyclists for the 72 hours following the accident.”

“What about the *truck drivers*?” I asked this question sincerely. “Shouldn’t THEY be getting ticketed? I think she did pass him on the right, though….”

“Oh we’re ticketing them too, believe me! It was the truck’s fault, actually- DUI. But tonight, I was assigned to the cyclists. I really don’t like doing this, because I know cyclists aren’t the dangerous ones.”

I was very happy to hear him cracking a bit.  We chatted some more about mtb and biking in general, and whenever he apologized, I just said, “Hey it’s fair, I understand.” No sense in arguing.

Further up the road, I came upon another cyclist. He asked me, “Was that you pulled over back there?” I said, “Yeah, guess I went through a red light. Usually I check for traffic, then cop cars, didn’t see him though!” 

“I got a ticket for a stop sign a few weeks ago,” he said. I told him how I counted up the number of traffic lights along one stretch of the neighborhood- over the 2.8 miles of bike lane, there’s about 54 lights, and one stop sign. “It’s not realistic to stop for all of them,” I told him, “and that’s just a small part of the entire commute.” He agreed, and I was glad to have met another rebel. 

“I just have to learn to be more patient,” I told him before parting ways. “As George Carlin said about traffic lights- “You *drive* a little while………then *rest* a little while.” He added, “My brother might be comin’ the other way!” :lol:

Yeah so anyway. Guess I’ll add this one to my collection…….. rrr:


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Sorry to hear that, Christine, but it sounds like you've got the right attitude about it. How much do those tickets run where you live?


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

I think they're around $70-100, but no points (whew.) 

At least now I know when to expect these "blitzes." Problem is, there's SO many fatal accidents........ 

Someday, I'm going to try and ride the route w/o violating ANY laws. But it would be awfully aggravating, and in some cases dangerous, to constantly stop/go/stop/go.

Many times, it even annoys the drivers when I'm, say, taking the lane and waiting my turn at the intersection. I could bail onto the empty sidewalk and give them the spot, after all. 

And to sit and wait at a red light when there's no traffic.......people don't think twice about jaywalking.

But something tells me this ticket isn't going to stick. Hopefully it won't!


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## Mcfarton (May 23, 2014)

poop happens


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Christine said:


> I think they're around $70-100, but no points (whew.)
> 
> At least now I know when to expect these "blitzes." Problem is, there's SO many fatal accidents........
> 
> ...


Good that there are no points involved. Tough on the wallet, though.

My last ticket was years ago. Riding on a sidewalk downtown in Lincoln, NE. I was new to bike commuting. Waiting for a light to change, a bicycle cop rides up beside me on the street and proceeds to write me a ticket for being on the sidewalk. We chatted and he told me that it used to be legal to ride on the sidewalk downtown, but a woman coming out of a store was hit and killed by a speeding cyclist. So, they enacted the ordinance. The ticket sucked, but I stayed off the sidewalk in downtown Lincoln.

I'm arguing on another thread right now about the relative merits of following the law versus breaking it because it seems better or safer. It's amazing to read the arguments people will make and the contortions people will twist themselves (and logic) into in order to justify doing what they want to do. I appreciate how you simply accepted responsibility for what happened.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

The law is the law, and he was assigned to cyclists last night, not his call. I don't argue with cops (much) as it would be like arguing with customer service people. They may not make the rules, but they do have a certain amount of power to make the situation better or worse. 

This guy was really nice and empathetic. The cops seem to be instructed to inform cyclists how they're doing it for "their" safety, but I don't buy that. It's the jerks who abuse the privileges, like the guy speeding on the sidewalk, that make it worse.

Sure there are laws, but the world isn't so black-and-white. I don't understand cyclists who feel it's absolutely necessary to obey every single law, like they've never jaywalked.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Opus51569 said:


> I'm arguing on another thread right now about the relative merits of following the law versus breaking it because it seems better or safer. It's amazing to read the arguments people will make and the contortions people will twist themselves (and logic) into in order to justify doing what they want to do. I appreciate how you simply accepted responsibility for what happened.


But note that she did not say she intended to stop breaking the law. None of the people you're arguing with on the other thread suggested that they would not "accept responsibility" in the sense of paying the fine if they got the ticket.

I'm amazed at the contorted logic of those who will contend that following the law is always safer, even in a circumstance where it clearly and demonstrably has no impact whatsoever on safety.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> I'm amazed at the contorted logic of those who will contend that following the law is always safer, even in a circumstance where it clearly and demonstrably has no impact whatsoever on safety.


Currently reading Just Ride by Grant Petersen. He suggests that it's safer for riders to act *un*predictably from time to time, in order for drivers to pay closer attention when driving near them. 

For example, if a car is approaching, the rider should make a sudden movement that looks like he/she's about to dart into the road, just a little, quick swerve, so that the driver leaves a bit more room for them.

There are plenty of times where I wait my turn at a 4-way stop, and wonder why the next car isn't moving- turns out they're waving me through! I'll often turn my head the other direction now, so they realize I don't see them waving (often I can't see through their windows, hence confusion and potential accidents.)


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Christine said:


> For example, if a car is approaching, the rider should make a sudden movement that looks like he/she's about to dart into the road, just a little, quick swerve, so that the driver leaves a bit more room for them.


Been doing this for years when especially no shoulder exists on tight rural roads. Like when I ride out form my semi rural house deeper into rural. And have been lambasted here for suggesting it. So I just stopped talking about it and continue it. I can see in my little lens mirror the difference in how much further left car pass. It is a no brainer AFAIC/AISI.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

robt57 said:


> Been doing this for years when especially no shoulder exists on tight rural roads. Like when I ride out form my semi rural house deeper into rural. And have been lambasted here for suggesting it. So I just stopped talking about it and continue it. I can see in my little lens mirror the difference in how much further left car pass. It is a no brainer AFAIC/AISI.


I do it too. Having a mirror is essential to the technique, IMHO, so you know how far back the traffic is and you can see when someone is setting up to buzz you too close. You obviously have to do it before they're right on top of you, but when they're close enough to see you. I also give explicit "move over" hand signals, which most drivers seem to appreciate. 

I've been lambasted here for this "sketchy" behavior, too (that's the word one poster used. It's not sketchy; it's communicating to that pickup driver that he can't rely on your perfect line if he wants to give you a shave with his side mirror. So unless he really intends to hit you (those guys are rare, thankfully) he moves over a little.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

As long as the rider isn't being obnoxious about it, like "PSYCH!!! BWAHAHAHA!!!!" then I don't see an issue. It's always better to make the other person feel like it's *their* idea in any case. 

I click my brake levers more often than I use the bell, for example. The clicking just makes people aware that I'm coming up on them. So they think, "I hear something..... oh it's a biker, better move." 

But the bell sounds like a command or something, so they might think, "Why is this biker expecting me to get out of the way? This is a shared path!" Or so I imagine!

If they don't hear the clicking, I ring the bell once or twice, and thank them as I pass.

The other day, a car drifted into the bike lane up ahead and was driving slowly- no brake lights, no signals, no idea what they were up to. Even other drivers were honking. I came up along the passenger side, raised my arm in anger to BANG!!! on the side, then caught myself mid-swing, and just thumped the side.

As I passed the passenger window, I looked at the driver and growled, "WhaddayaDOIN'?!!" then realized the passenger window was wide open. :blush2:

It is funny how people get so bent-out-of-shape over rules and techniques. Not all cars in the bike lane are evil, they might have good reasons; not all red lights and signs are equal; no two bikers are exactly alike.........situations can vary.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

JCavilia said:


> I do it too. Having a mirror is essential to the technique, IMHO, so you know how far back the traffic is and you can see when someone is setting up to buzz you too close. You obviously have to do it before they're right on top of you, but when they're close enough to see you. I also give explicit "move over" hand signals, which most drivers seem to appreciate.
> 
> I've been lambasted here for this "sketchy" behavior, too (that's the word one poster used. It's not sketchy; it's communicating to that pickup driver that he can't rely on your perfect line if he wants to give you a shave with his side mirror. So unless he really intends to hit you (those guys are rare, thankfully) he moves over a little.


Agree on the mirror being integral in the technique. 

I was on one of these similar roads in my car following a pickup pulling a trailer last night. It was dark and I saw sparks from his fender hitting the guardrail, cut that curve totally across the shoulder. Case in point, you want them to see you well ahead of time.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> But note that she did not say she intended to stop breaking the law. None of the people you're arguing with on the other thread suggested that they would not "accept responsibility" in the sense of paying the fine if they got the ticket.
> 
> I'm amazed at the contorted logic of those who will contend that following the law is always safer, even in a circumstance where it clearly and demonstrably has no impact whatsoever on safety.


Really? You want to do this here?

How about we let Christine have her thread. Post this over there, though, and I'll be happy to line you up alongside Swifty if you want.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Christine, sorry to hear about your second ticket.

NYC can really suck for lights. My car commute in Brooklyn takes me thru Canarsie and I swear the city just keeps adding lights at intersections that used to be, and were perfectly fine with stops signs as most are side one-way streets. I know that were I to write DoT and complain they'd claim "safety" which is BS. All it does is add to air pollution from idling cars. It like somebody's uncle owns a traffic light factory or something. If I had to bike commute this area there is no way I'd be stopping at all the stop signs and lights, it would add 1/2 hr to an already long bike ride. 

In your shoes I'd be doing Idaho stops at the stops signs and doing a good look at the lights, but it's going to suck commuting for a while.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Opus51569 said:


> Really? You want to do this here?


I don't really want to do it at all; I'm bored with the topic. But you're the one who started "doing this here."


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> I don't really want to do it at all; I'm bored with the topic. But you're the one who started "doing this here."


*sigh* Not bored enough, apparently...


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Steve B. said:


> Christine, sorry to hear about your second ticket.
> 
> NYC can really suck for lights. My car commute in Brooklyn takes me thru Canarsie and I swear the city just keeps adding lights at intersections that used to be, and were perfectly fine with stops signs as most are side one-way streets. I know that were I to write DoT and complain they'd claim "safety" which is BS. All it does is add to air pollution from idling cars. It like somebody's uncle owns a traffic light factory or something. If I had to bike commute this area there is no way I'd be stopping at all the stop signs and lights, it would add 1/2 hr to an already long bike ride.
> 
> In your shoes I'd be doing Idaho stops at the stops signs and doing a good look at the lights, but it's going to suck commuting for a while.


Guess it's more money for the city if a motorist goes through the light vs stop sign? Maybe the same? I should know by now........  Idaho stops don't count as stops here AFAIK. 

I skipped commuting yesterday mainly b/c it's probably best to lay low until the 72hrs is up.


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## dave66 (Jan 3, 2006)

may i ask what city this is in? the blitzs here dont generally 'target' cyclists, more like 'target super quiet 4 way stops in suburban neighbourhoods for easy cash '


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Got the tickets in Queens, but this is the NYPD. They do seem to like those quiet intersections! rrr:


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## sasquatch16 (Feb 7, 2013)

My daughter received a ticket for not fully stopping at a stop sign in Queens. She had a helmet and all the lights. Male cop really gave her a rough time. She went to court and had a female judge. Cop did not have all his facts together and judge tore him a new one and case was dismissed. You might get lucky.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

This time around, I just might. Cop was really nice, and clearly didn't want to ticket cyclists. Nice to get an occasional break!


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

dave66 said:


> may i ask what city this is in? the blitzs here dont generally 'target' cyclists, more like 'target super quiet 4 way stops in suburban neighbourhoods for easy cash '


Why can't they just run lemonade stands? Then everyone is happy.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

dave66 said:


> may i ask what city this is in? the blitzs here dont generally 'target' cyclists, more like 'target super quiet 4 way stops in suburban neighbourhoods for easy cash '


It's "The City" (New York). A forum tip: If you click on a poster's name, you can go to his or her profile. Most people put info about where they live there.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

And then there's this...


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Lemonade stands would work. Cyclists get thirsty, and they'd be more inclined to stop where there's a stand.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Took the day off so I could go to traffic court. This was for the red-light ticket with the really nice cop. Hoped he wouldn't show up, but he did. 

He had said that he's also a cyclist, that he really hated giving tickets to cyclists, and that he "might not remember all the details" at the hearing. So I was somewhat optimistic. 

He gave the judge a slew of details that sounded correct. The judge asked for my side of it, and if I had challenged what the cop had said, the cop might not have argued it, not sure. It's possible he didn't give all the correct details, but they sounded right, including the color of my bicycle.

I just said that the intersection is on a hill, so I was going very slow and needed the momentum, and at that hour, there was no traffic, I was careful to check. 

Judged said I was guilty, but with a _reduced_ fine of $150   Holy crap, I didn't realize the regular fine was so damn high. 

Paid up and made my sorry way home. The next hearing is in June. Talk about discouraging.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

The June hearing was cancelled the week before, and I was waiting for the next letter with the new date, but the next letter said that I didn't show for the rescheduled date  and that I was on the hook for blowing it off 

Just went online to pay a "guilty" fine, not knowing what else to do- $375. 

Still have to deal with ticket #3. :mad2:


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm all for law and order but, yeah, that sucks. Sorry, Christine.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Christine said:


> The June hearing was cancelled the week before, and I was waiting for the next letter with the new date, but the next letter said that I didn't show for the rescheduled date  and that I was on the hook for blowing it off
> 
> Just went online to pay a "guilty" fine, not knowing what else to do- $375.
> 
> Still have to deal with ticket #3. :mad2:


How did they allegedly inform you about the rescheduled date?

Unless it was by some provable method, like a registered letter that you had to sign for, it sounds like the burden of proof is on the city, not you.

I know you already paid the full fine, but still, it sounds like the city's scheduling methods are slipshod and open to challenge.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

SPlKE said:


> I know you already paid the full fine, but still, it sounds like the city's scheduling methods are slipshod and open to challenge.


I usually put all this stuff on the refrigerator, where it's front-and-center, and write the dates on the calendar. I might've filed away the cancellation notice, thinking another one would follow soon enough. 

Maybe the new date was on that letter, and I didn't notice? That's my guess.

But I'm just feeling really beaten down at this point. Since the next ticket will be over $400, might as well take the day off and show up in court in hopes that it's reduced to under $300 or so.

EDIT: OH nice, this just in: Cyclist Says Uber Driver Assaulted Her In Front Of Cops & They Did Nothing: Gothamist


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

Sheesh.. what are all these tickets for... Funny.. I got more tickets in my Toyota Camry than I did in my Mercedes AMG C63...


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

ljvb said:


> what are all these tickets for....


Because, in the eyes of the law, a bicycle pausing at a red light/stop sign is identical to a 2-ton block of metal barreling through at 60mph.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

Wow, sorry to hear about the tickets. It's very unfortunate that the law has not caught up to what we know to be safer in traffic. Most states/countys/municipalities just blanket the law as cyclist being the same as a motor vehicle. Unfortunately, a bicycle is not a 2 ton piece of steel that can accelerate to 60mph in 6 sec.

There really should be revised laws that are cycling specific that will further be educated to both motorist and cyclist. Unfortunately, there is little push for any kind of laws to reform the system to make things safer, more efficient and to change the attitude towards cyclist.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Christine said:


> Because, in the eyes of the law, a bicycle pausing at a red light/stop sign is identical to a 2-ton block of metal barreling through at 60mph.


I thought your new mayor would be very bike friendly. I'm appalled at the way the cops are treating you and other commuters in NYC. FFS, it's not like you're a messenger running down people on sidewalks and crosswalks.

Here in philly, our last mayor and our new mayor are very bike friendly.

I haven't heard about any of my philly bike riding and bike commuting pals getting tickets.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

To bad you do the crime you pay the fine!! You have to stop for 50+ stop signs, so does everyone else. So boo hoo you elitest snob. If you don't like the law then work within the system and get it changed. Until then stop when supposed to or risk getting a ticket.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

bmach said:


> To bad you do the crime you pay the fine!! You have to stop for 50+ stop signs, so does everyone else. So boo hoo you elitest snob. If you don't like the law then work within the system and get it changed. Until then stop when supposed to or risk getting a ticket.


Not to put to fine of a point on it.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

Christine said:


> Just went online to pay a "guilty" fine, not knowing what else to do- $375... the next ticket will be over $400...





bmach said:


> To [sic] bad... boo hoo you elitest [sic] snob.


wtf?
.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bmach said:


> To bad you do the crime you pay the fine!! You have to stop for 50+ stop signs, so does everyone else. So boo hoo you elitest snob. If you don't like the law then work within the system and get it changed. Until then stop when supposed to or risk getting a ticket.


As*hole response.

Getting the laws changed is a HUGE undertaking and likely takes years. I'm certain that Transportation Alternatives has been working on this for decades as well, but the laws stand with no changes. 

In the mean time, the NYPD, being typically a bunch of as*holes that you could identify with, will write tickets they know will get thrown out of court, merely to show a ticket count. Yes, they do this all the time and in NYC the victims of choice are usually cyclists. Not motorists, not pedestrians, but cyclists. Motorists are too hard, you actually have to chase somebody in a car and that's the job of the highway patrol, which usually isn't patrolling outside of the highways. And cops know that pullovers of cars can be dangerous. A bike is easy. And while the NYPD could balance the NYC budget on jaywalking tickets in Manhattan, they don't. 

NYC as well, has installed countless new stop lights at intersections that don't need them They could use stop signs easily, but somebody's uncle got the contract for lights, so there are lights in places they don't need so the cars just sit there and foul the air with idling car fumes. And cyclists will run the lights that are at every block, and for the cops it's easy pickings.

The stop signs are at most intersections where they haven't gotten around to putting lights, and that's OK as they are needed, but as other states have discovered, there's a difference between a car running a stop sign and a bike and the cops don't care when they should. There is such a thing as discretion and the cops rarely use it. Tickets are easy. One of the PITA's as Christine well knows, is stop signs at every intersection means that's a lot of stopping and next thing you know the bike commute is not worth that effort and you just drive. THAT'S not the what the city wants to encourage so until the laws get modified to make cycling doable, fewer folks will.

Sorry for the attitude, but the reality of bike commuting in NYC makes your high and mighty response total BS.

Rant over.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

This whole thing sucks. Its sounds to me like the cops are making some effort to discourage bike riding. Either that, or the cops are required to write a certain minimum number of tickets a day. Those fines are outrageous. Does the cop also write a ticket to every car that doesn't come to a complete stop? I'd sit out there and watch them for 15 minutes. 

Have you considered a different route? For me, its not possible, but since you're riding through the city, maybe try a different route.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Can't rep you Steve, but thank you! The world isn't so black-and-white.

The laws should be changed to recognize that a bicycle pausing at a stop sign isn't equivalent to a 2-ton machine ignoring the intersection and cruising right on through.

I've been biking in the city for nearly two decades, and only in the past year have I gotten tickets. The new mayor is oblivious.

In other news: 6 people died in a highway crash the other day, including a 10-year-old boy. But I'm the one looking at nearly $1,000 in traffic tickets.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Thank you for proving my point.

"bicycle pausing at a stop sign isn't equivalent to a 2-ton machine ignoring the intersection and cruising right on through." 

You are right a bike PAUSING is NOT the same as a car CRUISING through. Because pausing means stopping which you did not do. You, cruised through it. As cyclists we are bound by the same laws as other types of vehicles using the road ways. This is your second it is not ME but THEM ticket and then whine about. You know they are there so suck it up and play by the rules or quit whining or as I told you the last time you whined, work to change the rules. You will not do two of the three because you are exactly what I called you.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_As cyclists we are bound by the same laws as other types of vehicles using the road ways._

My "whining" is about the blatant injustice of the current system. Hardly unjustified. The laws that exist for drivers go unenforced, yet cyclists are bearing the burden despite killing nobody.

The fact that a cyclist gets more tickets based on ease of collecting revenue is hardly just, and doesn't address the real problem- reckless driving and the light treatment of it. Plenty of proof of this, which goes ignored by the city.

Feel free to put me on your ignore list, this is a forum about cycling and it's where I vent about the unjust treatment of cyclists in general.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

bmach said:


> To bad you do the crime you pay the fine!! You have to stop for 50+ stop signs, so does everyone else. So boo hoo you elitest snob. If you don't like the law then work within the system and get it changed. Until then stop when supposed to or risk getting a ticket.


By your black and white logic, cops should go on the highway and ticket about 80+ percent of the people driving as soon as they pass the speed limit. Every pedestrian that doesn't use a crosswalk should be ticketed. 

In the real world, there is something called discretion and not everything is black and white. Laws were made with an intent, but may not be specific enough for all situations. That's where the discretion of the enforcement comes into play to judge whether or not what someone does is safe.

Now I can't say for certain whether or not Christine was in the right or wrong as there are always two sides of the story, but if the situation happened as she had described most cops would not ticketed her under normal circumstances.

Most law enforcement understand that laws based upon cars cannot be unilaterally applied to cyclist as this would cause traffic chaos. Imagine trying to do a group ride and getting to a stop sign. Technically each rider will need to cross one at a time and coming to a complete stop. The law has not caught up to safe and efficient cycling practices. That doesn't mean that we should not practice good cycling etiquette.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Then do something about it. Don't just whine and rant. Document it, get others that have been targeted, video it, go to the media, stage a protest, get groups of cyclists to exactly follow the laws and let that tie up traffic but until then follow the laws and even if being "targeted" you won't be getting tickets. Bottom line is you know what they are doing yet to still don't follow laws then you whine about it. Do I come to a complete stop at all signs, no but I'm not going to complain if I get a ticket.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

bmach said:


> Then do something about it. Don't just whine and rant. Document it, get others that have been targeted, video it, go to the media, stage a protest, get groups of cyclists to exactly follow the laws and let that tie up traffic but until then follow the laws and even if being "targeted" you won't be getting tickets. Bottom line is you know what they are doing yet to still don't follow laws then you whine about it. Do I come to a complete stop at all signs, no but I'm not going to complain if I get a ticket.


What laws have you successfully lobbied to get changed, repealed, or passed?


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_Do I come to a complete stop at all signs, no but I'm not going to complain if I get a ticket._

What if you got three, all within the same year, which happens to coincide with the start of the new mayor's first term, despite riding the same exact way you've been riding your entire life without any problems, AND each ticket gets more and more expensive, while drivers who kill people are let go?

I suspect you'd be irked at the very least.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

bmach said:


> Then do something about it. Don't just whine and rant. Document it, get others that have been targeted, video it, go to the media, stage a protest, get groups of cyclists to exactly follow the laws and let that tie up traffic but until then follow the laws and even if being "targeted" you won't be getting tickets. Bottom line is you know what they are doing yet to still don't follow laws then you whine about it. Do I come to a complete stop at all signs, no but I'm not going to complain if I get a ticket.


Laws do not usually get changed unless there is a problem of epidemic proportions. Right now the law states that cyclist need to stop on stop signs which is more stringent than what is needed for safe practice. However the law has not been a problem as most law enforcement understand the differences between a cyclist and a motorist and exercise proper discretion when observing cycling practices. If for some reason, law enforcement gave up this discretion and ticketed all cyclist for every single infraction that doesn't abide by the motor vehicle laws, then there's a problem that will create enough protest among the general public and cyclist to call on a reform to the cycling specific traffic laws. I'm sure if cops pulled over every motorist that exceeded the speed limit by 1mph, I'm sure there would be a call for reform as well.

As it stands, the laws are more stringent then needed for cyclist, but as long as enforcement exercises common sense and discretion (which generally is the case right now), there is not enough of a problem to garner enough momentum to change the laws.

As for Christine's complaints or whining, she's caught in the exception where law enforcement was mandated to crack down on cyclist breaking the letter of the law instead of exercising discretion and common sense.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Sauropod, I have not lobbied to change any laws because there are none that I'm whining about. 

Red90, I'm not saying police should be going after 80% of drivers for speeding or jaywalkers. I'm saying if you break the law shut up, pay your fine then follow the law. If you don't like a law then work to change it. Getting nailed twice for the same thing and still whining, to me just sounds plain stupid. Especially when you know they are coming down hard on cyclists.

Christine, yes I might be mad but I'm not going to complain on a forum that I broke the law and got caught. Then say as a cyclist and the fact that I have to go through 50+ stop signs they should have cut me slack. You expect cars to stop, why not be happy with them doing a rolling stop? No, you were wrong, you knew it yet you still did it. I stand by everything I said!!


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_You expect cars to stop, why not be happy with them doing a rolling stop? No, you were wrong, you knew it yet you still did it. I stand by everything I said!! _

Drivers get away with the murder of cyclists and peds who obey the law, and you think these complaints are invalid. You can stand by that as proudly as you like.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

The reason they "got away with" murder is because it was not murder. If it had been they would get serious jail time.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

bmach said:


> Sauropod, I have not lobbied to change any laws because there are none that I'm whining about.
> 
> Red90, I'm not saying police should be going after 80% of drivers for speeding or jaywalkers. I'm saying if you break the law shut up, pay your fine then follow the law. If you don't like a law then work to change it. Getting nailed twice for the same thing and still whining, to me just sounds plain stupid. Especially when you know they are coming down hard on cyclists.
> 
> Christine, yes I might be mad but I'm not going to complain on a forum that I broke the law and got caught. Then say as a cyclist and the fact that I have to go through 50+ stop signs they should have cut me slack. You expect cars to stop, why not be happy with them doing a rolling stop? No, you were wrong, you knew it yet you still did it. I stand by everything I said!!


You might be the one to shut up and take it whenever anything happens to you, but others will bring up the issue and have discussions about it. That is usually the avenue for actual change. If there is enough consensus that certain laws are not reasonable or unjust, that creates momentum for change. Complaints and discussions bring awareness to the need for change. Christine was just bringing up what she thought was an unreasonable targeting of cyclist in her area. You do know that we are in a FORUM, which is meant for free discussion and expression of opinions in a constructive manner. In my opinion as you say... she is doing something about it. However, to attack someone and call them an elitist snob IMHO is unwarranted, unproductive and juvenile.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

No she is just that and no she is doing nothing to change anything just whining on a forum. Doing something is documenting, organizing, meeting with elected officials, meeting with the media with facts and docs, getting cycling clubs and cyclist together to make change. Maybe she should take her original post and send as a letter to the editor to the new and post and see what kind of reaction she gets. She is wrong and will continue to get tickets which are deserved. What she is doing is like speeding through a speed trap that you knew was there and then whining about being picked the on and then doing it over again and whining all over again.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

bmach said:


> To [sic] bad... boo hoo you elitest [sic] snob.





bmach said:


> yes, I might be mad... I'm not going to complain on a forum... I stand by everything I said!!


'mad' has a few different definitions. you sound very angry and a little crazy.

keep fighting and riding, christine!


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Sigh, this just in: Bicyclist, 78, killed after being struck by car on Queens street - NY Daily News

25-year-old driver kills 78-year-old cyclist. Driver isn't facing any charges. Cyclist didn't seem to be doing anything wrong.

You were saying, bmach??


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

My responses in the thread are about you and your attitude not about anything else.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

bmach said:


> No she is just that and no she is doing nothing to change anything just whining on a forum. Doing something is documenting, organizing, meeting with elected officials, meeting with the media with facts and docs, getting cycling clubs and cyclist together to make change. Maybe she should take her original post and send as a letter to the editor to the new and post and see what kind of reaction she gets. She is wrong and will continue to get tickets which are deserved. What she is doing is like speeding through a speed trap that you knew was there and then whining about being picked the on and then doing it over again and whining all over again.


Seems like your the one that is constantly whining and complaining and can't accept that it's your opinion that might be wrong. You can't accept things are not always black and white and too thick in the head to accept other peoples opinions. Keep at it, I'm sure you'll get really far in life.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

_Doing something is documenting, organizing, meeting with elected officials, meeting with the media with facts and docs, getting cycling clubs and cyclist together to make change. _

I'm already a member of Transportation Alternatives. I used to volunteer with the local mtb club and edit/write for the newsletter. Right now, I have to focus on finding another job while this ship goes down. I've even been perusing jobs at the DOT (which would be awesome if it involved improving bike infrastructure.) 

I also got a speeding ticket due to some new cameras and limits on a stretch of road near my house- sure I griped a bit, 25mph feels awfully slow in a car, but you don't hear me raging against it; this is exactly what we need!


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bmach said:


> No she is just that and no she is doing nothing to change anything just whining on a forum. Doing something is documenting, organizing, meeting with elected officials, meeting with the media with facts and docs, getting cycling clubs and cyclist together to make change. Maybe she should take her original post and send as a letter to the editor to the new and post and see what kind of reaction she gets. She is wrong and will continue to get tickets which are deserved. What she is doing is like speeding through a speed trap that you knew was there and then whining about being picked the on and then doing it over again and whining all over again.


To me, reading about Christine's experiences with getting tickets and dealing with the NYC court system, is a learning experience. I'm not understanding the anger from bmach and certainly wonder how he/she copes with life when most everything is not black and white. 

Yes in in ideal world Chris should stop at the ALL the stop signs, but as has been pointed out, there are a LOT of stop signs and I defy anyone to come and ride in NYC as a bike commuter on a daily basis and attempt to get anywhere without having to coast thru a few stop signs. This is one of those grey area's bmach just doesn't seem to understand. 

What Christine does when she bike commutes is hard. It really is. It's far enough to be tiring, and is stressful dealing with traffic. My own commute - south shore of L.I. to center of Brooklyn is 27-28 miles one-way and I'm exhausted in a way that a 35 mile fast weekend group ride doesn't do to me (thus I only do it once per week). What some folks who don't live in NYC don't get is biking here is a different animal then a lot of places, the huge variety of different cultural groups that vary the expectations of how drivers interact in traffic, as well as the sheer traffic volume, makes it a challenge. Possibly no worse then a lot of cities, I hear Wash. D.C is especially challenging, but on top of the general stress and challenges, the NYPD just seems to hate cyclists as a organization and Christine was probably the victim of this in an unfair way. Thus she has earned the right to complain.

Now much of this (and my) attitude about the NYPD is based on urban legend mixed in with a good bit of personal experience and observation. I'm sure it's not as bad as I portray, and I'm not getting into the many assorted examples that fill YouTube, but the police/cycling relationship has soured enough in the past few years that the executive director of Transportation Alternative for the first time this year came out publicly to criticize the NYPD specifically, which is something they've otherwise avoided doing. Thus you know it's bad and the current mayor is oblivious. 

Thus Christine's experiences are really a view from the trenches. 

I have no problem reading them.

And as note to Christine, you once posted a Go-Pro video of your commute. It would be enlightening to do so again.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Here you go:






Can't get rid of the Hyperlapse "commercial breaks."

This includes the near-miss by the bus going through a red light @ 5:36. The stop sign @ 3:38 or so is where I got ticket #2- mostly industrial area, after rush-hour.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Christine said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. That's a challenging commute. And echoing what Steve said, commuting in city traffic is tiring. I commuted 10 miles each way from northwest burbs of Philly to the east side of downtown. Although a big chunk of that was on a river path, once I was in traffic on the burb side and the city side, it was like a battle.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

2:17 to 3:42 is just under 3 miles. Feel free to count the intersections. 

It's roughly 20 city blocks per mile, so that's approximately 50 lights and change, maybe three or four stop signs.

Haven't done the math for the rest- there are a few nice paths with long stretches of traffic-free comfort.


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## Backdash (Jan 26, 2016)

I know that route to the Willie B.
Leavitt to Northern to the overpass past CitiField
34th ave - UGH!
LIC - UGH!
Flushing Ave - UGH!
The bridge crossing and the FDR downtown are just full of surprises!

Some folks would call those junk miles. They aren't, takes a lot of skill(s) and it's a workout too.
How many days a week do you do that?


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

This year, not many- working out in the heat/humidity seems to be triggering migraines, plus one more traffic ticket might mean real trouble. I'm not sure what happens after the third, but I'm concerned.

Rode in on Monday, wanted to ride home Tues but [reasons] so I'm finally riding home tonight. 

My record was 2 r/t and 1 one-way trip in a work week. I'd love to do at least one one-way trip/day.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Steve it is black and white you run a traffic control signal you risk getting a ticket. When you get one how can you complain about breaking the law. Yes it must be a pain to have to stop that often but she chose to run the stop sign so it is no ones fault but hers. I rarely come to a complete stop at stop signs but if I ever got a ticket I would not be on a forum whining that I broke the law and got caught. 

Seeing her video shows that it is a tough ride and I would not ride there. 

And red90 I did not get as far in life as I wanted. Had to settle on two houses could not swing a house in Aspen also.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bmach said:


> Steve it is black and white you run a traffic control signal you risk getting a ticket. When you get one how can you complain about breaking the law. Yes it must be a pain to have to stop that often but she chose to run the stop sign so it is no ones fault but hers. I rarely come to a complete stop at stop signs but if I ever got a ticket I would not be on a forum whining that I broke the law and got caught.
> 
> Seeing her video shows that it is a tough ride and I would not ride there.
> 
> And red90 I did not get as far in life as I wanted. Had to settle on two houses could not swing a house in Aspen also.


She's never been really been whining about getting the tickets. She has stated that she understands she was caught and will pay the fines. She's been complaining about the stupidity of how the NYPD doles them out like candy to children and how they seemingly just go looking for cyclists to hit up for their ticket quota. This is something I'd bet every NYC bike commuter understands. Others outside of NYC don't get this.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

And @ Christine

I think the only thing a judge can do to you legally for the 3rd ticket, is increase the fine amount. They cannot assess points against your license or take it away, according to what I know about the NY State vehicle code pertaining to bicycle law. 

I'd certainly be doing much on line research about this.

Edit: And as I watched the video, I thought maybe I'd suggest you should ride a bit more left in bike lanes with parked cars. Easier to avoid doors. I tend to ride with my h-bar near the left painted line, just like I do on a road shoulder. Somewhere that's written up about how to be more "visible" and how position on the road is important. I think when you ride to the right, motorists interpret it as you are yielding the road to them and they take advantage of it.

As a result of this thread, I realized today I should not be riding the road along the Rockaway's - Shore Front Parkway. For about 20 or more blocks there's a light at every intersection, in a 1.5 mile section of road, so every 400 feet, with half being one way streets where they are not needed, so goes NYC. If I rode the street I have to run a lot of lights. I figured out today that even though it's windier and busier with pedestrians up on the adjacent Boardwalk, I'm not running lights and risking a ticket.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

It's not easy avoiding doors- in the video, there is one that I just missed, would have to look for the time of it though. 

You'd think that doors would be popping open all the time, but I only get startled about once every three rides or so, if that. The faster I'm going, the further into traffic I go.

Once I did actually get doored, years ago, when a guy decided to toss out his coffee while he was stopped at a light- there was very little room b/w the curb and the cars. Sustained a gash to my right pinkie, no big deal luckily!

Rode home last night, and stopped at (almost!) all the lights/signs. It's such a pain on that stretch of road- every five blocks I'd have to stop again. Imagine having to stop every quarter of a mile. rrr:

It doesn't even take up that much more time to stop, oddly enough, but on a singlespeed, the frustration of lost momentum is real.

Edit: @ 4:13 there's a door, but I don't think that one was a problem- saw it in time. Pretty sure the "surprise" door was around the 3:20 mark...


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Here's why the ticketing of cyclists in the name of "Vision Zero" is so ludicrous:

More NYC Cyclists Have Died So Far This Year Than In All Of Last Year: Gothamist

As a driver, I've had to pony up $50 for a ticket so far this year; as a cyclist, it's $525 and counting.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

actually, drivers _do_ regularly get away with killing cyclists in NYC. there are numerous cases, frequently hit-and-run, where negligent drivers were not so much as cited in instances that ended with dead cyclists. 

but at the start of De Blasio's term he sort of inherited the hot-button issue of pedestrians getting killed, mostly in outer boroughs, and he ran with it. i really think the already-amped-up targeting of cyclists (and motorcyclists, by the by) kind of fell in with the more general safety-nazi campaign.

in a more rational world, traffic statutes would reflect the more rational thought process and riding habits of the vast majority of responsible cycling commuters, where right-of-way is the guiding principle. if you get it wrong, you're responsible for the mistake. if you act responsibly in response to the traffic conditions and other road users, everyone goes on with their day. it makes absolutely no sense to ignore the differences between cars and bicycles, as it makes no sense to ignore differences between cars and pedestrians. but as a society, we aren't really inclined to treat each other as competent adults as a matter of public policy. though it seems like it used to be the case that places like NYC operated on such a principle in practice, if not according to the letter of the law.


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

"at many light no traffic, slow, turn right on red, pull u, and turn right quick like dragon. do not stop for ghost. this good principle for life."

- kung-fu-tse


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

bmach said:


> My responses in the thread are about you and your attitude not about anything else.


Plenty of blogs (Bike Snob NYC) focus on the problems; Gothamist (most of the links I post here) also does a great job reporting on how the NYPD and drivers have been literally getting away with murder.

NYC is one of the the world's most popular tourist destinations. We've got people from around the world on this forum who can empathize with the state of cycling here. It's my small way of getting the word out.

At my office building, there's bike parking in the garage. When the garage management changed hands, suddenly there was a $75/month fee for parking bikes, and overnight parking was never allowed. This, despite the bikes not taking up any parking spaces.

So I e-mailed the director of Health and Wellness in my company, asking him to look into this, and included links to how the city laws allow for bikes in offices; spoke to security; called Facilities..........no dice. 

Finally got the name of the building's own manager, and he was very quick to respond and resolve the issue. Now, bike parking is free again, and it's fine to park them overnight (within reason.)

I would like to see about instigating a change in the law itself- bikes should NOT be subject to the same rules as cars. There's no reason a human-powered 30-lb contraption should be considered as equal to a 2-ton deer-smackin', engine-driven machine.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

What changes would you like to see.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

bmach said:


> What changes would you like to see.


I'd say that the 1st change that is need is for the general public to realize that a bicycle is not a toy, but a vehicle that has a place in Society. Until that day comes, we, as cyclists, are nothing but a thorn in the side of a large portion of our Society, and that Society includes the makers and enforcers of law.

While we have self absorbed individuals driving anywhere further than across the street, and 300lb plus sized individuals wearing sweat pants and football/basketball jerseys swilling beer and eating pizza thinking someone riding a bike in a pair of cycling shorts is a buffoon, I don't see things changing too soon.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Christine said:


> There's no reason a human-powered 30-lb contraption should be considered as equal to a 2-ton deer-smackin', engine-driven machine.


Yes there IS a reason: When you live in NYC, and there's easy money to be made, you extract it from the least defensible pocket. If someone in NYC could figure out a way to charge cyclists for oxygen use, they would do it...


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bmach said:


> What changes would you like to see.


- Allow an Idaho stop at stop signs, that allow you to slow and roll.
- Allow the same to use discretion at red lights to stop and if the coast is clear, proceed. Only person to lose at this is the cyclist if they mis-judge.
- The NYPD beat cops need to start enforcing no stopping, parking or otherwise blocking a bike lane. This means the beat patrol cops need to do what they leave to parking enforcement to do.
- Patrol cops need to obey the same laws they don't currently enforce, such as not double parking to go in a deli, amongst other things. I see this all the friggin time and is indicative of a huge collective mindset problem within the NYPD.
- The NYPD needs to start treating cyclists as a class of citizens that are endangered in traffic, instead of treating them as unequal victims. 
- The NYPD needs to start citing motorists for reasons such as failure to yield right-of-way, or failure to exercise due caution. Left hooking a cyclist or motorcyclist is all too common and outside of a cursory equipment check, a motorist is givin a pass if they make a left into oncoming traffic that results in the death of a cyclist or motorcyclist. You kill a person in such and similar accidents, you lose your license AND registration for vehicles you own, for a year. Plus the plates and insurance. 
- 3ft. Passing amendment to the state law, instead of wording of safe distance. 
- Change the law for leaving the scene of an accident to provide for penalties equal to DWI. Too many times a driver realizes they can leave and accept the consequences after, and not be caught for DWI. 

That's it for a start.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Peter P. said:


> Yes there IS a reason: When you live in NYC, and there's easy money to be made, you extract it from the least defensible pocket. If someone in NYC could figure out a way to charge cyclists for oxygen use, they would do it...


Sigh, yeah a tax on oxygen use. We breathe SO much more of it, how unfair!! Look at that cyclist panting, the _nerve_ of them! 

Our own mayor drives 30 miles round-trip from Gracie Mansion to his old gym in Brooklyn, daily, for his workout. I'm fairly certain there are some nice bike paths near the mansion that he could use, cut out all that commuting time, and see for himself what cyclists endure.

He's already gotten a lot of bad publicity for this wasteful habit, especially since it takes up most of his morning work time.

As for changes, the Idaho stop is the first one that comes to mind; warnings instead of tickets for cyclists, at least for first offenses, additional education in driver's education that explains the cyclists' point-of-view.....

There's a ton of new speed cameras all over the place now, which annoy me as a driver, but I do think they're a great thing.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

So should cars be allowed to stop and go at a red light if there is no other traffic? Sitting at a light when there is no traffic wastes time, gas and creates more polution. Same at a stop sign, no traffic then roll through for the same reasons?


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

bmach said:


> So should cars be allowed to stop and go at a red light if there is no other traffic? Sitting at a light when there is no traffic wastes time, gas and creates more polution. Same at a stop sign, no traffic then roll through for the same reasons?


This is the very premise for roundabouts. If there is traffic with right of way, you stop and wait until it's safe. If not, you simply keep going after initially reducing speed.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

bmach said:


> So should cars be allowed to stop and go at a red light if there is no other traffic? Sitting at a light when there is no traffic wastes time, gas and creates more polution. Same at a stop sign, no traffic then roll through for the same reasons?


The whole reason for bikes to have different laws, is due to the fact that they are much safer to have on the road. A car can get up to speed much faster/easier than a bike, and can do a lot more damage as a result.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bmach said:


> So should cars be allowed to stop and go at a red light if there is no other traffic? Sitting at a light when there is no traffic wastes time, gas and creates more polution. Same at a stop sign, no traffic then roll through for the same reasons?


I would think that as a cyclist you would be aware that bikes may sometimes not trigger the light to change. As well you are should be aware that visibility inside a car is certainly less then what you observe on a bike. Thus a cyclist is in a far greater position to judge when an intersection is safe to enter. And of course there are THOUSANDS more cars then bikes and it's obvious that it would be chaos, and that is simply not the case typically with bikes. I would argue that mid-town Manhatten, NYC might not be the best place for bikes to be allowed to stop and proceed at a red light, due to the sheer numbers of cyclists and pedestrians, but there are many other places, even in NYC, where this could be made to work. 

And of course, a car can kill somebody in a collision, where as a bike rarely does. Yes it happens, but infrequently, even in NYC.

I think the attitude needs to change, starting with the recognition that, and has been stated numerous times in this tread alone, that a cyclist is not the danger, except to themselves, that a motor vehicle can be and that the laws need to change. We really do need to be promoting commuter cycling and as a fellow cyclist I would think that would lend itself to a less argumentative attitude. Not clear on where that comes from and why.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

First I'm not pushing buttons. I am asking questions because we as cyclists want cars to follow traffic laws and be held accountable when they don't. Yet this thread was started by some one not wanting to be held accountable for breaking traffic laws. I understand exactly where you are coming from and I have done rolling stops or have run red lights when they trigger because the sensors don't know I'm there. I also except that I might get a ticket for either of those moves. 

I asked about cars doing rolling stops or running red lights if no other cars are around for a reason. I work nights and there are five lights that I have to sit down through and there is rarely another car in sight. I roll the dice and run them but I did get caught once and got a ticket. 

I would love to some changes but the changes need to be made nation wide not just in NYC. Cyclists have the same issues no matter where it is, just in varying scales. Until the changes are made we have to accept we risk getting tickets just like we do when we drive.

Some one posted that if cyclists are allowed to run lights/signs and get hit its on them. Sorry but the driver that hit them would have to live with that for the rest of their life. 

There are lots of laws that need to be changed but all angles need to be looked at.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

I think a lot could be done on a national level, except that the states prefer to keep these vehicle laws local. That's OK on one level as it better allows for local conditions to dictate the appropriate laws and levels of enforcement. 

I think the thing that is most irritating to me is the dichotomy of the NYC situation, where a former mayor made great strides in building and encouraging bicycling and the infrastructure to support it, yet somehow that enlightened attitude just never got across as a message to the NYPD. It's understanding that a police force of 25,000 can be difficult to change, but it's almost like its 2 different cities. The police seemingly just never got the message that cycling should be encouraged, where as the sometimes draconian enforcement as well as lip service to investigating of accidents as well and lackadaisical enforcement of vehicle laws, sends a message to everyone that cyclists are 2nd class citizens. As example, even though they found the car that was involved in a hit-and-run in Williamsburg a few months ago, they have never found the driver. The fact that they don't even provide updates on what is essentially a murder, yet will do so with other non-cycling incidents, is a message they don't realize they are sending. 

Sad state of affairs.


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