# How Much Average Wattage Gain Over Winter?



## kreuzberg (Feb 1, 2009)

Ok, I know I'm opening up a can of worms here, but I'm just curious what kind of gain in power (in percentage of your threshold) the average person can gain after an off-season of about 18 hours a week with two sessions of 2x20s every week. 

Would doing 2x20s three times a week yield a bigger gain?

I've read that SST training gives people ~7% gain in FTP, after about 8 weeks...not sure if this is correct, anybody have experience with this?

Also, this is not counting the first year, like maybe someone's first year of training their FTP goes up dramatically, but I want to know about what kind of gains you can expect to see from year to year, if you train consistently.

thanks everybody!


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

kreuzberg said:


> Ok, I know I'm opening up a can of worms here, but I'm just curious what kind of gain in power (in percentage of your threshold) the average person can gain after an off-season of about 18 hours a week with two sessions of 2x20s every week.
> 
> Would doing 2x20s three times a week yield a bigger gain?
> 
> ...


18 hours a week on the trainer? I will go ahead and guess -80%. Yes, negative, because you will burn out and quit riding your bike for the rest of the season.

Oh wait, 18hrs/wk doesn't meant you're on the trainer. Oops, sorry.

At 18hrs a week, you have plenty of time to build your way up to a high FTP. But to answer your question: it depends. It depends on your previous riding, the types of workouts you do each week/month, your genetic ability, and generally how smart and consistently you train.

Really, this is a very individual question and there is no proper and correct way to answer it. But, you can expect to max out genetically in 3-4 years of 18hrs/wk of smart training.


----------



## kreuzberg (Feb 1, 2009)

Sorry- should've been clear. Not 18 hours on the trainer, 18 hours total of training.
I did that much volume last winter, and I didn't burn out, in fact I really enjoyed it.
I'm a student so I got lots o time.


----------



## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

kreuzberg said:


> I'm a student so I got lots o time.


And no life


----------



## mavicwheels (Oct 3, 2007)

*Politician*



iliveonnitro said:


> 18 hours a week on the trainer? I will go ahead and guess -80%. Yes, negative, because you will burn out and quit riding your bike for the rest of the season.
> 
> Oh wait, 18hrs/wk doesn't meant you're on the trainer. Oops, sorry.
> 
> ...



Spoken like a true politician. Never give an answer and evade the rest....


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

mavicwheels said:


> Spoken like a true politician. Never give an answer and evade the rest....


"How do you win a bike race?"
Well, cross the line first.

There is no way to answer his question properly. There are far too many variables and not even an educated guess would be, by any stretch of the imagination, accurate.

See the other thread going on in the Racing/Training forum. Otherwise, would you rather I make up a number and say "30 watts"?

There is no way to answer. Vague questions get vague answers.


----------



## mavicwheels (Oct 3, 2007)

*specificity*

I think the original posters question was fairly specific, but if you don't think so u are entitled to your opinion. Any coach I have ever talked to Fastcat, Carmichel, coaches in Houston, etc, etc. All use very generic or don't answer the question at all. Why be so elusive in your answer, several studies show what gains in FTP can be with the right training. Why not quote them there. That is why I no longer trust coaches and will not waste any more money on them.:thumbsup:


----------



## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

"studies" aren't people. people are very, um, individual. hence the term "individual." 

the how much can I expect question would depend entirely on his baseline and his genes. and even then anyone who knows what they're talking about would add motivation and discipline and outside stress and the price of potatoes and lord knows what else.

don't be a troll. I believe that the question is real, but the answer is, "more. probably."


----------



## mavicwheels (Oct 3, 2007)

*Studies*

Studies can be useful to track and pin down many things. We utilize them in healthcare all the time to view we various effects and doses of drugs can do to the human body. 
Studies involving exercise abound everywhere, and CAN certainly be mentioned as to what expectations can be for a give regime for a given sport. Genes are a wonderful thing, but age, nutrition and state of hydration, altitude and where an particular event is being held are variables. None of this was mentioned by ilveonitro. The Academy of Sports Medicine as well as the American Academy of Orthopedic Medicine have studies involving exercise, muscle strength, endurance, etc., etc. Again, why not quote these studies. These studies do show what results can be expected for a given regimen. Gosh guys this isn't that hard. Unfortunately, I guess its too much trouble to take the time away from the TDF and Biggest Loser to read this stuff.:thumbsup:


----------



## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

why don't you quote them? they still have little meaning to that individual.

btw, utilizing the word utilize instead of use says a lot about the utilizer.


----------



## function (Jun 20, 2008)

*Typical forum non-answers*

The OP stated that he, to paraphrase, was opening a can of worms. My understanding of his post was that he simply wanted to know what people had achieved. Why mention all the variables and skirt the answer when even if he provided all the variables, no one would answer intelligently anyway? So, here is some anecdotal feedback for my n=1 "study".

Male, 28years old, 15-17hrs a week of cycling. i started doing SST about a year ago, and previously long intervals with lots of easy days;

year0: 270W (just riding around and doing random "intervals")
year1: 300W (doing 2x20 twice a week and easier rides the rest of the time)
year2: 315W (Started doing SST 4x a week, my goal was to make the majority of the rides "hard")
year3: 340W (This is where i am, i hope to make it to 360W by next spring)

SST type rides really took me to a new personal level. But i would not expect 7% over 8 weeks unless you just started doing high intensity efforts, but 7% over 12months would be really good!


----------



## mavicwheels (Oct 3, 2007)

*English language professional*



bill said:


> why don't you quote them? they still have little meaning to that individual.
> 
> btw, utilizing the word utilize instead of use says a lot about the utilizer.



This particular word was chosen as a transitive verb! Perhaps the above named "English language professor" will find a nice dictionary next time they desire to correct someone!:thumbsup:


----------



## aussiebullet (Sep 26, 2005)

My experiance 3 decades of cycling mainly commuting mtbing for fun/fitness
Started racing ~5yrs ago
Training with power almost 2yrs now
First year ~15% iprovement in FT on 6-12 hrs/wk of tempo/SST/high L4, less hrs meant higher intensity, very inconsistant training year with family health problems causing lost time and motivation.
Second year first 3 mths after end of season on ~7 hrs/wk doing 200-250min of L4 (93-96%) only trained every 3rd day or 5 days fortnight if you like, 60-80min in morning & 40-60min in arvo then 2 days off l saw ~ 7% improvementin FT.
Since then l have a little more time to train but choose to train only 10-12hrs/wk a lot more time doing V02/AWC/upper L4 with some tempo/SST thrown in there as well, l have seen big improvements at all levels with FT about 14% higher now than the end of last season, and currently l'm at 4.6w/kg with a fair bit of weight to loose before the climbing races/stages at the end of the year so for now it's all about racing some flatter courses and raising sustainable power as much as possable with SST being a big part of that, it is (for me) the best bang for buck when fatiged from training at higher levels
Too much SST alone and l go stale! improvements come (for me) with some upper L4/V02 work to raise the ceiling then go back to SST/lower L4 and milk it for all it's worth then when l go stale again l through in a couple of weeks of intensity and bingo another small but noticable increase in sustainable power, consistency for many years will see great results.


----------



## mikeyp123 (Mar 9, 2007)

function said:


> The OP stated that he, to paraphrase, was opening a can of worms. My understanding of his post was that he simply wanted to know what people had achieved. Why mention all the variables and skirt the answer when even if he provided all the variables, no one would answer intelligently anyway? So, here is some anecdotal feedback for my n=1 "study".
> 
> Male, 28years old, 15-17hrs a week of cycling. i started doing SST about a year ago, and previously long intervals with lots of easy days;
> 
> ...



Mind sharing how much your weight as well as your body type (ecto, meso or endo?).


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Neither of you answered the question. His question was over the winter, not over many years.

Does anyone have data on doing only SST rides for 8 weeks in the winter at 18hrs/wk?


----------



## function (Jun 20, 2008)

mikeyp123 said:


> Mind sharing how much your weight as well as your body type (ecto, meso or endo?).


 Hi, i weigh 80kg. i don't really subscribe to the body type classifications, most would say i was a mesomorph but i spent a large portion of my childhood as an ecto and have long muscular limbs and low body fat but my bones aren't "big" e.g. i have small wrists and thin fingers.


----------



## aussiebullet (Sep 26, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> Neither of you answered the question. His question was over the winter, not over many years.
> 
> Does anyone have data on doing only SST rides for 8 weeks in the winter at 18hrs/wk?[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## mikeyp123 (Mar 9, 2007)

function said:


> Hi, i weigh 80kg. i don't really subscribe to the body type classifications, most would say i was a mesomorph but i spent a large portion of my childhood as an ecto and have long muscular limbs and low body fat but my bones aren't "big" e.g. i have small wrists and thin fingers.


Thanks, was curious. You power numbers are pretty good... having some info about weight gives a little better perspective. I'm 68 kg, can do about 280 watts on a hard 20 min interval. Wishing I could crack 300 one of these days.. Progress has been slow this year, last year I probably added 10-15% easy.


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

aussiebullet said:


> iliveonnitro said:
> 
> 
> > Neither of you answered the question. His question was over the winter, not over many years.
> ...


----------



## aussiebullet (Sep 26, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> Although a response to the above posts, it was only negative to mavicwheels while defending my original response. It wasn't intended as an attack to you, so my apologies to you. It was still good information.


No worries mate, my apologies also.

To the OP if an athlete was using WKO to track their training load and was to train lets say 15 hrs/wk ( 5 days 3hrs day) and the avg IF was .70 including warm up and cool down with a TSS of 210 that would equate to 1050 TSS points p/wk!!! 
Now for 8 wks strait you could build enough base for a week long tour assuming you did not burn out in the process, so as you can see it a lot of work and a very fine line and most athletes could not get through it without loosing motivation or getting sick etc.

Last year l did 6wks of tempo/SST at ~1000 TSS points/wk followed by a 2 week taper and boy did l need that 2week taper but l was super strong for my A races over the following 3wks and broke my 30min pb by 3% up a long climb during a 108km race but as l said it is a fine line to tread.


----------



## function (Jun 20, 2008)

mikeyp123 said:


> Thanks, was curious. You power numbers are pretty good... having some info about weight gives a little better perspective. I'm 68 kg, can do about 280 watts on a hard 20 min interval. Wishing I could crack 300 one of these days.. Progress has been slow this year, last year I probably added 10-15% easy.


Plateaus certainly are frustrating, i'm in one of those right now, are you also doing SST, how regularly? Cracking 300W for an hour at your weight would really be good.


----------



## mikeyp123 (Mar 9, 2007)

function said:


> Plateaus certainly are frustrating, i'm in one of those right now, are you also doing SST, how regularly? Cracking 300W for an hour at your weight would really be good.


The typical week:
Workout 1: 2 or 3, 20 minute intervals at ~FTP (260-270 watts) 
2: 5 x 5 min intervals at Vo2 (300-320 watts).. throwing in a couple hill sprints
3: long intense group ride
4: easy to moderate miscellaneous ride


----------

