# 2008 Madone 5.2 Damaged seatmast



## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

Hi,

I recently had a bike fit done which resulted in the seatmast being raised by about 12cm. The guy nudged it up ever so slightly at a time.

A couple of weeks later whilst cleaning my bike I noticed the seatmast had damaged paintwork where the cap had been fixed. The paintwork was scratched but on closer inspection I saw what appeared to be an indent in the mast itself. I took the seatcap off and found there was infact an indent on the mast all along where the cap had been fixed to the mast (both sides of the mast and back). I dont know if its paintwork damaged or CF. Its probably at least 1mm deep. (see photos)

The saddle height had not been adjusted since I purchased the bike 1.5yrs ago. At the time it was adjusted by the LBS. It was only now that I had my bike fit it was again adjusted.

I dropped the bike off at the LBS who have inform me that Trek have taken the bike away for inspection. The guy at the LBS said 09 Madones had a strengthened seatmast which implies the 08 being the first Madone to go into production may have had a manufacturing defect.




















Anyone seens this before or had experience of this?

Any thoughts/comments. Appreciated

Thanks


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## thejdj (Sep 23, 2008)

Doesn't look that bad to me. Mine is worse. However, in my case the damage is near the top. Switching to the taller cap worked for me since the clamp is now way below the damage.


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## Tinshield (Jun 29, 2008)

How would it not get marred up?


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

It looks like the guy that adjusted the height of your seat over-tightened the bolt(s) on your seat mast cap, crushing the mast. Did he tighten it with a torque wrench?

Be sure to tell us what happens.


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## Tinshield (Jun 29, 2008)

Is it actually crushed and cracked or just scratched?


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

I'm no expert but it would appear its been crushed hence the indent. I don’t know when this happened if this is the case as I think it was before the bike fit since I discovered it soon after the bike fit. This could well mean when I purchased the bike it was over tightened then. There also appears to be a crack but I think its just in the paint but cannot be sure. 

The guy who did the bike fit did not use a torque wrench nor did the guy who put adjusted the saddle height when I purchased the bike. It did not appear as though the bike fit guy was applying a lot of pressure.

Trek are compiling a report as to what they think has happened. Sounds like to me as though they are going to wash their hands of this (being pessimistic). 

I spoke to the LBS today and he said he didn't want to comment on what his opinion is until he has seen the report from Trek. It seems as though what he thinks has happened is not in line with Trek's opinion but ultimately Trek are the ones who warranty all claims.

I shall let you know what Trek have to say and the outcome.

Thanks


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## Tinshield (Jun 29, 2008)

My guess is the LBS will be responsible.


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## MANTEIGA (Sep 26, 2008)

*...*

tap test?


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

what is tap test ?


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## MANTEIGA (Sep 26, 2008)

*...*

im sure your local trek dealer did this already? 
if not you need to find another bike store, but try tapping a coin over the 
suspected damaged area. you are listening for sound variences.
carbon fiber resonates sound off metal coins sounding very "clickY" like
and hollow... kind of like tapping thin hard plastic. if you have a pinch fracture
in the cf, it will sound very distinctly dull and different than other areas.
another strange "phenomenon" i discovered last year is that a normal uv blacklight 
will cause the cf in 08 black 5.2 madone's to glow at stress points.... 
i had a lot of interest but no one ever confirmed it. im not kidding, search "blacklight" and pull up my old thread.......


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## MANTEIGA (Sep 26, 2008)

*...*

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=167046&highlight=blacklight


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

Update for those interested.

Trek have confirmed the seat mast has been crushed by "over tightening". They are not going to warranty the claim. I am without a bike.  Trek have offered a replacement frame reduced by 30% RRP. I do not know what that amount is but no doubt it would be expensive.

The LBS where I purchased the bike from are saying there is no way they could have done it. My gut feeling is thats when it was over tightened as they changed the seat cap that was on the bike for a longer seat mast and the put that on without using a torque wrench. They say that if it was like that when I purchased the bike the mast would have snapped off by now. In my opinion that is when it happened and I have been lucky it has not snapped. I discovered it when I had my recent bike fit. The LBS are pushing the blame onto the bike fit guy saying he was the last person to adjust the bike.

I am now without a bike and no one burdening any of the responsibility for this.

Anyone any advice to offer????? 

Thanks


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

*Alternatives*

Go over their head and talk directly to Trek. Be sure to mention that the shop tightened the bolts without a torque wrench.

Go tell the fitter that he crushed the post by not using a torque wrench. Demand $$$.

Have it repaired, I think that Kestrel can fix it easily and at a reasonable price.

The 60% off frame may not be that expensive, Get the shop to cover part of the cost.

Raise hell, get your lawyer to call the shop, read everyone the riot act, etc.

Are you English?


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## azpoolguy (Dec 18, 2009)

I would check on getting it repaired and then using a longer seat mast. I purchased a Ritchey torque key when I picked up my Madone and had the seat mast swapped out during the fit session for a longer one.


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

Hi,

I am in England, UK. Trek UK Technical manager has advised against riding the frame since the mast is no longer safe to be clamped at 60 mm or above. It can be clamped below it but again they are covering their a55e55 and advising against it. At 60mm below the min insert the saddle height for me would be too low.

I think the LBS and Trek have a v-good relationship since LBS were dealing directly with Trek UK Technical Manager. They have got him to word the report to say that the bike seat mast has been over tightened using a Torque wrench which was 15% inaccurate to its true setting which has resulted in this damage. They base this finding on the stem being over tightened by this amount. Again this is highly speculative as when I took the bike to the LBS I had removed the saddle from the bike so there is no way they tell this. The funny thing is the bike fit guy did not even use a torque wrench.

Further more Trek are saying the saddle has been lowered from a higher position as there is signs of paint damage further up the seat mast as well. I suggested to the bike shop this could have happened before I purchased the bike since when I purchased it it had a smaller seat cap which may well have been setup higher on the frame. They declined to comment on this and are saying there no way they could have damaged the bike and also that its not their responsibility.

I am stuck between a LBS who are not taking any responsibility and Trek who have washed their hands off this. The LBS said they will speak with Trek again to see how much it will cost to replace the frame. I paid £2000 for this bike 1.5yrs ago. Its been my pride and joy only ridden summer 09/10 sat on my turbo during winter months. I was after that exact color and its now ruined with no fault of my own. 

I will call the bike fit guy tomorrow and see what he has to say. I think for him its unfortunate that he was the last person to touch the bike. 

I don't really want to purse this through a legal path as it will be more hassle and costs which I'd rather avoid if possible but at the same time do not want to payout to replace the frame.


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

LBS have advised not repair it. They say the carbon layers a directional and that a repair may look good on the outside but inside may still be structurally unstable.


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

Its a small world. Turns out the bike fit guy knows Trek UK Technical manager.


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## azpoolguy (Dec 18, 2009)

red_eye5 said:


> LBS have advised not repair it. They say the carbon layers a directional and that a repair may look good on the outside but inside may still be structurally unstable.


I haven't inspected my seat mast but I believe they could repair the inside also. They should be able to apply a layup of carbon on the inside of the mast to re inforce the crack. I'm not a carbon repair expert but I spent 2 years building carbon airplanes. Google Lancair if you want to see what they make.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

*Repair it*

Your seat mast can be repaired perfectly, for example by Calfee:

http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm

Sure your LBS and Trek want you to buy a new frame because they get your money.


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

I dont think I would want to get a repair job as it would be in the back of my mind if it was ok all the time even though it may look good.

Trek have offerred a replacement frame as a "gesture of good will" at 50% off RRP (which is still a heck of a lot of money) and LBS will build it up for pretty much nothing. LBS have advised me to take them up on it.

I found this thread where someone had the same problem and his bike was warrantied so Trek do not have a standard approach on this. This guy even used a torque wrench and his mast was still crushed.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15720577


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## Tinshield (Jun 29, 2008)

red_eye5 said:


> I dont think I would want to get a repair job as it would be in the back of my mind if it was ok all the time even though it may look good.
> 
> Trek have offerred a replacement frame as a "gesture of good will" at 50% off RRP (which is still a heck of a lot of money) and LBS will build it up for pretty much nothing. LBS have advised me to take them up on it.
> 
> ...


Maybe in his case they actually found a defect?


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## ekaibab (May 5, 2010)

Take the 50% offer. You are getting a brand new frame, most likely a latter production run with improvements and trading in 1.5 yrs wear and tear. Plus it is not doing you a lot of good the way it is now.


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## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

You could perhaps try selling the damaged frame to defray some of the cost of the new frame and have the buyer get the frame repaired. Or repair it first and then sell it...


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## wirelessness (Aug 30, 2008)

I wouldn't let the same LBS build it up.....would you???


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

I rejected the £975 offer from Trek for a replacement frame. I will *never buy a trek* again or an integrated seatpost type design. I was not comfortable with spending my hard earned money on another Madone. 


I got the seatmast repaired and was out for a ride yesterday. I did 80 miles and the bottom bracket sounded like it was creaking. When I got home I checked it for play but it seems ok. I have the V2 bearing in there so thought they may be playing up. Upon further inspection I found a crack on the outside of the driveside chain stay. Its a vertical crack and is about 1inch long not far from the bottom bracket. The bike has once again gone back to Trek. This is one of the reasons I decided not to buy Trek. Cracked chainstays, forks, headtubes the list is endless on forums and Trek dont take responsibility.

I wont hold my breath on this. No doubt Trek will come up with some other excuse putting the blame onto anyone but themselves.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

*Free Bike?*

If your chain stay is cracked you will get a new frame for free. Keep us posted.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

I believe the " integrated seatpost type design" is one of the stupidist moves that Trek has made. It removes flexibility and, as seen above, causes nothing but grief for owners. 

I have a *NEW* Madone 5.2 that fits perfectly except that the seat cap is 3cm too long. That means that the knee angle is almost straight. It could easily be shortened, BUT ... . The screws are at the bottom of the cap so it can't be shortened without losing them. Trek has known of this problem since at least 2008. The dealer is going to lose a $3000 sale because Trek wants to become the Sony Betamax of the 2010's. 

It does, however, take sales away from those pesky aftermarket sellers.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

1. You bought a frame that is way too big.

2. You can get a short seat mast cap. It comes in three lengths.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

1. Not according to the best professional fitter in town. The frame is fine, the seat mast cap is not.

2. Not if you are of short stature. They are ALL too long. And the design prevents easy accomodation.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

Trek2.3 said:


> 1. Not according to the best professional fitter in town. The frame is fine, the seat mast cap is not.


"The best professional fitter in town" is a moron.



Trek2.3 said:


> 2. Not if you are of short stature. They are ALL too long. And the design prevents easy accomodation.


According to the fit chart for the 5 series found here: http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/story/madone5/fit/h1 the minimum seat height for a 43 cm size XS with a short seat cap is 55cm. According to your public profile you have a 43cm XS WSD. You must be of extremely "short stature", like way under five feet. This is not Trek's fault. My less than five foot tall girlfriend uses a much bigger frame than you do. Recently I rode a tour with a woman who has a special bike for very short people. It has a small front wheel. I think it's a Terry. Actually according to the chart the Madone with the three seat mast options allows 10cm of seat adjustment, which is a lot, so actually it does "accomodate" [sic] a lot of height variation. It's difficult to design a bike for people as short as you are. You should consider a special bike. Check this out:

http://www.terrybicycles.com/cycling_savvy


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

Tlaloc said:


> "The best professional fitter in town" is a moron.


No. Those who speculate without all the facts are.

The 5.2 is in a 50cm frame.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

Tlaloc2 said:


> You can get a short seat mast cap. It comes in three lengths.


Actually, the part once came in FOUR* (4) *lengths. A shorter length was made for the expensive 6 Series in 2007/8(?). It can be identified by the contraction slits in the sides and the separately-molded silver colored clamp. So, indeed, Trek knows about the issue, can address it, but has decided to ignore it for the future. I now have 1.

If anyone has one in their parts drawer, I'll buy it from you. I want a spare.


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## red_eye5 (Jun 19, 2010)

Trek did not even look at the chain stay/creaking bottom bracket. They looked at the bike and recognised it from the seatmast and said there is no longer warranty on the bike since I have had the seatmast repaired. 

They said I should have read the warranty terms before I got it fixed. What a load of crap. The bottom bracket and the chain stay have nothing to do with the seatmast.

They have washed their hands of it and dont want anything to do with it. I will never ever ever buy a Trek or any of its other brands.


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