# 11 Speed information...



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

Here's all the new information I've gathered since I got my 11 speed parts this week (except the cranks).

The new 11 speed chain is 5.5mm wide, but the width across the outside of the inner plates is NOT the same as the previous 10 speed UN chain. The width across the outside of inner plates is .1mm (4%) narrower. The width between the inside of the inner plates, where the chain ring teeth mesh with the chain IS the same .090 inch or 2.3mm wide, so there should be no problem meshing with 10 speed chain ring teeth that are only .075 inch or 1.9mm thick. The reduction in the thickness of both the inner and outer plates is small – no more than 10%. With the 20% stronger material and no holes or slots in the plates to reduce strength, there’s no reason that the chain’s strength should be reduced. With rollers the same thickness, there really should be no significant reduction in chain life either. 

The narrower width across the inner plates means that there is no 5.9mm connecting link that really fits well. The narrowest models that fit Campy UN or SRAM chains will have about .1mm more clearance than is desirable. You can still try one of these links at you own risk, but I chose to buy the 11 speed chain tool and install the new joining pin properly. It can't be installed with any other tool.

Contrary to some reports, the cogs HAVE been reduced in thickness to the same 1.6mm as Shimano cogs. With 2.2 thick spacers, that results in a c-c cog spacing of only 3.8mm, compared to Shimano’s 3.95mm, so once again, the spacing between the brands is not the same. When I placed a 10 speed cassette on end, next to an 11 speed cassette, both resting on the smallest cog, the overall length of the 11 speed cassette was about 1mm greater. Most of this length moves the cogs further to the left, with the largest cog obviously extending further to the left (toward the spokes) than a 10 speed largest cog. The overall length of the 11 speed cassette was 41mm. The cassette body’s spline length is only 36mm, for reference.

I hooked up my 2003 Record 10 speed RD to the 11 speed shifters and found that it undershifts. After all 10 shifts, the upper pulley was a little more than halfway between the cogs 10 and 11, which isn't very good alignment. I made sure that the RD travel was not restricted by the low limit screw. Setting the high limit screw a little too tight helps, but not a lot. I'd plan on buying that new 11 speed RD, unless J-tek comes up with a shiftmate to cure the problem.

I just took several sets of cable pull readings and came up with a total pull of 1.03 inch or 26.2mm. That's only a little more than the 1.02 inch or 25.9mm that I measured for 10 speed, some years ago and verified again today. The cable pulls are not all the same, just as before. I got uniform pulls of 2.5mm for the first two shifts, then only 2.2mm for the next three. The old system was consistently 2.5mm for the first five shifts. Shifts 6-9 were consistent at 2.9mm and the last was larger at 3.3mm, not restricted by the limit screw. The total of all the amounts above isn't exactly 25.9mm, but the individual shifts are rounded to one decimal place, so there's a little roundoff error. The total pull was quite repeatable. In round numbers, I get an average of 2.9mm per shift for 10 speed and 2.6mm for 11 speed, but none of the shifts is really average.

There is a definite difference in the operation of the '09 Centaur 10 speed ultrashift levers and the '09 Record 11 speed. The Centaur levers have a much lighter force and almost no noticeable clicks on the right finger lever, while the Record 11 version works much like the '08 model with more force required and very definite clicks. You can feel the difference, even when operating both levers with no cables attached.


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## HammerTime-TheOriginal (Mar 29, 2006)

Thanks for the in depth report. 

Is there a difference in throw between '09 Centaur 10 and '09 Record 11, and in particular, on the lever sweep (dead travel) to get the first shift?

How confident are you of your observations being generally applicable conclusions, as opposed to potentially being, at least in part, reflective of unit to unit variation?


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## bedazzle410 (Sep 26, 2005)

I currently run 7800 dura-ace. No problems at all. I want to get my self a present so was thinking about 11 speed super record.If any one has it if you would set forth your comments.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*more...*

I've only got one pair of the Cenataur levers, but I've read several other reports that agree about the lighter clicks and effort.

I've got two pairs of Record 11 levers and they both have more distinctive clicks. I don't think there's any difference in the dead travel. Part of the additional effort may be due to the 11 speed RD. It's got some stiff springs. The Record 10 RD I've got probably has 15,000 miles on it.


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## ainsy (Aug 24, 2008)

*Do you prefer Record or Centaur shifts*

C-40

I read that you "Kind of liked the Centaur shifts" on another forum.

Do you prefer the more traditional shifts of the 09 Record or the smoother shift of the 09 Centaur with a few miles under your belt with both?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*



ainsy said:


> C-40
> 
> I read that you "Kind of liked the Centaur shifts" on another forum.
> 
> Do you prefer the more traditional shifts of the 09 Record or the smoother shift of the 09 Centaur with a few miles under your belt with both?


I realy got to liking the easier operation of the Centaur setup, but that's not an option with 11 speed. I can live with either one.


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## ishmaelmuscat (Oct 30, 2008)

*11 speed chain*

I use my Crankbrothers multipurpose tool, which also includes a small chain tool with it to close chains.

Campagnolo say that the 11 speed chain needs special 11 speed chain tool. They also said that for the 10 speed chain but I always used the above simple chain tool to close the chain. Also used it for Shimano chains on my mountain bike.

My question to you is: do you think a simple chain tool can close the 11 speed chain?


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## HammerTime-TheOriginal (Mar 29, 2006)

ishmaelmuscat said:


> IMy question to you is: do you think a simple chain tool can close the 11 speed chain?


Close it? Yes.
Keep it closed (while riding)? You takes your chances.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2008)

The peening of the end that C-40 mentioned just isn't going to happen without the CN300 tool. I closed a chain with the tool the other day and being very cautious as it was the first time I had used it, I didn't push the link into the chain far enough initially. I noticed it because you can't close the arm on the tool to peen the other end of the link till the initial position of the pin is far enough in the link.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*No!!*

The new joining pin is entirely different and require the end to be peened to hold it in place. The new tool is the only one that fits the 11 speed chain and has the ability to peen the joining pin.

Tools that fit 10 speed chains will most likely not support the back side of the chain properly. My Park chian tool does not fit properly. The U-shaped fork hits the inner plates and prevents the back side of the chian from touching the back supporting jaw.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

I have the Super Record 11 and the 09 Centaur 10 and my experience is exactly like C40's. The Centaur has very little click compared to the 11s. I much prefer the 11s but I suppose I will get used to the light shifting. The levers are fantastic, ergonomically speaking.


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## ainsy (Aug 24, 2008)

*Concerns*



Sherpa23 said:


> I have the Super Record 11 and the 09 Centaur 10 and my experience is exactly like C40's. The Centaur has very little click compared to the 11s. I much prefer the 11s but I suppose I will get used to the light shifting. The levers are fantastic, ergonomically speaking.


C40 & Sherpa23
I am due to have the 09 Centaur levers fitted to replace my 08 Chorus but love the positive clicks on the right finger lever the Chorus affords (like 09 11 speed by the sounds).

Getting used to the 09 Centaur...is it a matter of getting used to the lever throw only or is there any indication of change by way of minimal clicks that you can feel when on the bike? I am worried that I may be mis shifting if the changes are based purely on lever throw and based on this am re considering wether to keep the Chorus levers on to maintain the more definite shifting....or biting the bullet and upgrading the shifters, mechs, chain and cassette to 11 speed at considerably more expense, something I would like to avoid.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

ainsy said:


> C40 & Sherpa23
> I am due to have the 09 Centaur levers fitted to replace my 08 Chorus but love the positive clicks on the right finger lever the Chorus affords (like 09 11 speed by the sounds).
> 
> Getting used to the 09 Centaur...is it a matter of getting used to the lever throw only or is there any indication of change by way of minimal clicks that you can feel when on the bike? I am worried that I may be mis shifting if the changes are based purely on lever throw and based on this am re considering wether to keep the Chorus levers on to maintain the more definite shifting....or biting the bullet and upgrading the shifters, mechs, chain and cassette to 11 speed at considerably more expense, something I would like to avoid.



You should get used to the lighter feel pretty quickly. If nothing else, you feel the rear der. shift. At first I didn't like it, but it's grown on me.

BTW, I agree the ergonomics of the new shifters is fantastic. Since I won't be going to 11 speed for a while, I plan to change all my bikes over to the '09 Centaur shifters.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

ainsy said:


> C40 & Sherpa23
> I am due to have the 09 Centaur levers fitted to replace my 08 Chorus but love the positive clicks on the right finger lever the Chorus affords (like 09 11 speed by the sounds).
> 
> Getting used to the 09 Centaur...is it a matter of getting used to the lever throw only or is there any indication of change by way of minimal clicks that you can feel when on the bike? I am worried that I may be mis shifting if the changes are based purely on lever throw and based on this am re considering wether to keep the Chorus levers on to maintain the more definite shifting....or biting the bullet and upgrading the shifters, mechs, chain and cassette to 11 speed at considerably more expense, something I would like to avoid.



I'm sure that you will get used to it. 

It's probably worth mentioning that despite how I feel about the shifting action, the actual shifting is very good. So good, in fact, that I will probably put the 11s away for the year. I am going to race on 10s in 2009 again to make things easier as far as getting wheels for neutral support and such. Other than the feel of the lever, I don't think that the super record is really any better. I will say that I might ask for a stiffer mech or spring on the Centaur levers (C40 says the new levers use a totally different type of mechanism so I"m not sure how you stiffen the shifting action). We;ll see what kind of response I get. Regardless, I am still going ot use them.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Yikes! That Campy CN300 special chain tool is selling for $180 - 200. 

Part of the cost of being an 'early adopter' , I suppose.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*shop around..*



tom_h said:


> Yikes! That Campy CN300 special chain tool is selling for $180 - 200.
> 
> Part of the cost of being an 'early adopter' , I suppose.


I only paid $147 at Ribble. Yes, it's a lot but the tool works. That price is not likely to go down. The early adopter price is $300 at Excel. European stores are not price gouging.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

*Ribble Cycles U.K.*



C-40 said:


> I only paid $147 at Ribble.... European stores are not price gouging.


Wow, you're right !!

Off topic, but I just priced a Dura-Ace 7800 triple gruppo at Ribble ... their dollar converted price was $1006, while the best price I could find at a 'reputable' US internet retailer, was over $1200. (I won't deal with 6 separate ebay sellers for each itty-bitty piece).

And if I paid in British Pounds, using my USA credit card's more favorable exchange rate, Ribble's price is only about $900 (plus S/H).

Now if only they sold those Time or Look frames I've been shopping for ;-)


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*7800*

Lickton's had the 7900 group for $1050 the last time I looked. Not bad. Most credit cards will have a currency exchange fee if you by overseas. Could be about $30.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

For the 7800 D-A Triple, Lickbike.com (= Lickton's) is showing $1196
http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='7116-69'
I think that may be the _'over $1200'_ price I referred to, and I got it a bit wrong.

I've started a new thread inquiring about people's experiences buying big ticket items in UK, for USA delivery
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=152841


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## veloci1 (Nov 29, 2005)

so, Centaur could give me lighter shifting but as reliable as my Red Record shifters? i really like the ergonomics of the new design, but, i am concerned about giving up quality by going Centaur. 

any feedback from you guys will greatly appreciated.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

veloci1 said:


> so, Centaur could give me lighter shifting but as reliable as my Red Record shifters? i really like the ergonomics of the new design, but, i am concerned about giving up quality by going Centaur.
> 
> any feedback from you guys will greatly appreciated.



Next year's Centaur is this years Chorus. What are you giving up?


Trickle down economics that actually works!


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

veloci1 said:


> so, Centaur could give me lighter shifting but as reliable as my Red Record shifters? i really like the ergonomics of the new design, but, i am concerned about giving up quality by going Centaur.
> 
> any feedback from you guys will greatly appreciated.


The shifting seems to be at least as good but the shifting would take some getting used to, as the clicks are not as forceful. It's hard to account for operator error but if you don't have a very good touch with the levers, it might take a little to get used to. However, it doesn't compromise the quality of shifting, which in some ways is a little better than the red levers.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

I have heard of compatibility issues between 3rd party hubs (that were working fine with campy 10 speed sets) and new 11 speed cassettes so perhaps a good idea to try and stick to the major branded wheelsets or check before purchasing a new wheelset for your 11 speed.


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## KM1.8T (Aug 11, 2007)

I am now running the 09 Centaur shifters on one bike and the 08 Record on the other. There is a difference in the clicks and feel of the shifts but you get used to it pretty quickly. Seems smooth like my old dura ace but with better ergonomics.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

I think that this is the question for C-40:

If you want the 09 Centaur to the feel like the 09 Record or Super Record, which parts do you change? There's no G spring or spring carrier, which were different for the red shifters, so what are the magic parts for the new generation of shifters? Sorry I can't answer this myself; I'm good with understanding the mechanics of frames, forks, and wheels but when it comes springs and bushings and stuff, I'm not smart at all.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*can't say...*



Sherpa23 said:


> I think that this is the question for C-40:
> 
> If you want the 09 Centaur to the feel like the 09 Record or Super Record, which parts do you change? There's no G spring or spring carrier, which were different for the red shifters, so what are the magic parts for the new generation of shifters? Sorry I can't answer this myself; I'm good with understanding the mechanics of frames, forks, and wheels but when it comes springs and bushings and stuff, I'm not smart at all.


Unfortunately, there are errors in the Campy spare parts PDF the last time I looked. They showed the same internal parts for 10 and 11 speed models, which cannot be correct. There has to be a difference in one or more springs. There are no G-springs anymore, but there are different springs that serve the same basic function. Spare parts will probably be very hard to come by for awhile. A brave person could buy Record or Super Record shifters and just change the indexing disc from 11 speed to 10. I'm not interested in testing this idea at the present.

From the diagram, I'd say the difference has to be in part number EC-RE-017. Part number EC-CE160 is the index disc.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

C-40 said:


> Unfortunately, there are errors in the Campy spare parts PDF the last time I looked. They showed the same internal parts for 10 and 11 speed models, which cannot be correct. There has to be a difference in one or more springs. There are no G-springs anymore, but there are different springs that serve the same basic function. Spare parts will probably be very hard to come by for awhile. A brave person could buy Record or Super Record shifters and just change the indexing disc from 11 speed to 10. I'm not interested in testing this idea at the present.
> 
> From the diagram, I'd say the difference has to be in part number EC-RE-017. Part number EC-CE160 is the index disc.



I have a pair of the Centaur new in the box and a pair of the Super Record new in the box. Let me know if you want to try the switch and I will drive them over.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

My guess is C-40 will be unable to pass on the opportunity to work on them.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*really...*



Sherpa23 said:


> I have a pair of the Centaur new in the box and a pair of the Super Record new in the box. Let me know if you want to try the switch and I will drive them over.


I've got nothing better to do with the winter weather arriving. I'd try it, but don't rush me. I want to savor the experience. No guarantees either. 

PM me for name and address.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

PM sent..


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