# Who's done a suicide hub?



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Or, whatever they call it, when you thread a cog the "wrong" way on to freewheel threads and then use a BB lockring, to make a fixie?

As long as you've got brakes and don't want to do skidstops and stuff, does it work okay?


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

I used red loctite--- no BB ring (it is worthless in this case). It is almost impossible to remove--- even with a torch. I never had a problem-- but I also used a front brake. Now I have a few real wheels, but back in the day, suicide was fine.



Argentius said:


> Or, whatever they call it, when you thread a cog the "wrong" way on to freewheel threads and then use a BB lockring, to make a fixie?
> 
> As long as you've got brakes and don't want to do skidstops and stuff, does it work okay?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

filtersweep said:


> I used red loctite--- no BB ring (it is worthless in this case). It is almost impossible to remove--- even with a torch. I never had a problem-- but I also used a front brake. Now I have a few real wheels, but back in the day, suicide was fine.



+1..if you use a brake, no problem


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

It's a suicide hub only if don't run a brake. With a front brake you should have no problem using a good quality cog on a freewheel hub. Just stay away from cheap junk cogs.


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## FTM (Feb 4, 2005)

What roadfix said.

I rarely use a lock ring, even on my mountain bike, and I have true fixed hubs. I also run a front brake. In over 20 years of riding fixed, I've only had my cog loosen twice and both those happened after I had changed cogs and didn't tighten them down properly.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Never ridden any other kind*

I clean the threads well, use blue loctite, tighten well and let the loctite cure. I use my front brake for all hard stopping. Never had a problem.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

did it for one off-season, with blue loctite and BB ring (and front brake)... marked it w/ a sharpie pen to make it easier to check for slippage... never slipped that I could notice, but never felt totally comfortable or secure with it... ended up getting a real fixed wheel


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## ridenow1 (Sep 5, 2005)

*A guy I ride with has ridden several seasons without...*

Yeah, Argentius, a local Cat-1 sprinter type guy you might know, never even bothered with a locknut, dared me to try to loosen that cog off after a ride or two; it just self tightens. Of course, he doesn't do skid stops(on purpose anyway). Maybe it gets even
a little tighter than average with his strength...i dunno. All that said, I still had the eevie- jeevies, thinking about disasters, so got a fixed hub...you know the thought; a $100 new fixed hub built wheel vs. 1 hospital or emergency room visit. (I never thought I would want to or attempt a skid stop, but it seems to happen at least once a week in emergency situations, even with brakes.) One of those things that seems really cheap when you think about it. Plus, no redishing. Of course frugal people like us still consider otherwise first. Hey, you already know all this stuff!


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Depends on the track but a lot of trackies don't run lockrings. That seems to be fine even with their occasional backpedalling.


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## ukiahb (Jan 26, 2003)

Did one on my first fixie, welded a BMX freewheel so it no longer freewheeled and got away with it, never loosened....current bike has a real fixed/fixed track hub w/ lockrings


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## dead flag blues (Aug 26, 2004)

It works fine for me, without Loctite or anything.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Yeah, I do, but I wanted to, you know. Check. Now the situation has come up where I don't want to bother actually swapping wheels, because I am, as you put it, "budget-conscious!"


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't get it. You mean like a singlespeed? Don't quite understand the "suicide" concept.


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Christine said:


> I don't get it. You mean like a singlespeed? Don't quite understand the "suicide" concept.


You're flying down the street at 25 mph on your brakeless, freewheel hub conversion fixed gear. You approach an intersection. You've got a red light. You realize you're going too fast so you immediately apply hard backpedal pressure to slow down, then suddenly your cog and bb lockring slip and spin right off the converted threaded (suicide) hub. The bike coasts. You don't have a hand brake. You can't slow down. You don't have time to think. You panic. You don't instinctively jamb your right foot between the rear wheel and seat stay as you've never practiced this maneuver before. You run into the intersection with cross traffic hoping you don't get hit. Oops... You get hit by a cab. You die.


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## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

Christine said:


> I don't get it. You mean like a singlespeed? Don't quite understand the "suicide" concept.


No, it's a fixie...but instead of using a real fixed hub, you use an old freewheel hub from a geared bike. Unthread the freewheel and spin on a cog, without using any type of lockring. The cog will tighten itself from pedaling. 

That's how I've been running for a year or so, with zero problems. The cog tried to loosen itself on the first ride out, so I just pedaled a little harder to get it snug. No issues since.

I use a front brake and feel that this is a perfectly easy and safe fixie conversion. Just don't be a moreon.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Alternate ending*



roadfix said:


> your cog and bb lockring slip and spin right off the converted threaded (suicide) hub. The bike coasts. . . . You die.


or, the spun-off cog jams between the hub and frame, firmly locking up the rear wheel, resulting in an uncontrollable skid, which results in you going down and sliding under the wheels of the aforementioned cab. Same end result.

All entirely avoidable if you have a brake and use it, as many here have attested.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Yeah, I'll give 'er a try. I'll have two MTB V-brakes, that ought to slow me down 'nuff...


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Argentius said:


> Or, whatever they call it, when you thread a cog the "wrong" way on to freewheel threads and then use a BB lockring, to make a fixie?
> 
> As long as you've got brakes and don't want to do skidstops and stuff, does it work okay?


There's no 'wrong way' to it - the threads match perfectly. I don't use the BB lockring, because my hub doesn't have enough threads to meaningfully add one.

As I understand it, this isn't a 'suicide' hub by the original definition. A converted freewheel has plenty of room on the right side for the cog to accidentally spin off without locking up against the chainstay. Obviously this is a place where brakes are a great idea. 

The 'suicide' moniker was originally meant for a flip-flop hub, where one side is fixed (with threads for a track lockring) and the other side is free (no additional threads, like on a bmx or old-style freehub.) If you run a cog on the 'free' side and it becomes unscrewed, the jamb-into-the-stays thing becomes much more real, and it's a very ugly problem. I could be wrong about all of this - just fixie lore I heard long ago. Mostly, the story makes a point - it's not as big a deal as folks imagine. 

When I first set my bike up, I purposely didn't tighten the cog 'just to see' if pedaling alone would tighten it enough. I didn't pedal hard enough before trying to stop quickly, and it begain to spin. But I caught it before it came off, pedaled it down and used the brakes. Later on the workstand I played around with trying to let it spin off, but couldn't make anything awful happen. 

However, as others have mentioned, there's not a lot of chance for these to get loose when properly installed. A chain whip can put out a bunch more force than pedaling can, and forward pedaling can apply much more force than backpedaling. After I spin on a new cog, I set the front wheel against a wall and bounce on a 3:00 pedal once or twice. I run and usually use brakes, but I also can't break it free for trying. I don't use loctite - in fact, I grease the threads. Go figure. 

YMMV. And use brakes. Even with a track cog, they are simply a good idea, and for more reasons than safety. They let you stop (and therefore ride) much faster.


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

I very lightly grease my threads too, even on my lockringless wheelsets.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*true dat*



> And use brakes. Even with a track cog, they are simply a good idea, and for more reasons than safety. They let you stop (and therefore ride) much faster.


That last statement doesn't get said enough. All that zen stuff about not needing brakes if you get tuned in to the traffic flow and anticipate the need to slow or stop is true as far as it goes, but what it really means is you ride slower. Who needs that?


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

I do my zen thing only during my quiet posing sessions at Starbucks. I don't think I can do it while I'm riding....


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Argentius said:


> Or, whatever they call it, when you thread a cog the "wrong" way on to freewheel threads and then use a BB lockring, to make a fixie?
> 
> As long as you've got brakes and don't want to do skidstops and stuff, does it work okay?


Just don't ride with others - then it's 'homicide', not 'suicide'. - TF


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

oooooh a Homicide Hub.......intriguing. I want one!! 

Such as it is, I had a suicidal moment on my way to the gym tonight: sweatpants leg came undone, got caught in the chain. Luckily I wasn't going *that* fast, but was just picking up speed. The pants cuff tightened slowly and torturously as the cranks continued to turn.....and turn......creeping stubbornly to a stop. Pretty scary moment.


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

suicide pants?


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## Chris H (Jul 7, 2005)

I tacoed my front wheel once on a ride (stupid fluke accident) and banged it against the ground to get it straight enough to ride to a safer place where I could take a look at it. It was so out of true that I had to disconnect the brake or the wheel wouldn't turn.

Not so much of a big deal until I hit a big downhill that I wasn't expecting. My hub started unthreading pretty quickly on my flip flop hub as I tried to backpedal a bit and slow down. Really got my attention! Unable to slow down, I spun out as best I could going a little bit too fast down that hill. When I got to the bottom I immediately pulled over and tried to true that wheel as best I could. I learned my lesson. There were probably only a few threads left on that hub before things got really ugly.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Scary*



Christine said:


> oooooh a Homicide Hub.......intriguing. I want one!!
> 
> Such as it is, I had a suicidal moment on my way to the gym tonight: sweatpants leg came undone, got caught in the chain. Luckily I wasn't going *that* fast, but was just picking up speed. The pants cuff tightened slowly and torturously as the cranks continued to turn.....and turn......creeping stubbornly to a stop. Pretty scary moment.


Lesson there, for sure. Have to be very careful with all dangly things on the fixie. Pants legs well tucked, shoelaces double-tied and double-checked, etc. If that had happened at speed, you'd have been in a world of hurt.


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## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

JCavilia said:


> Lesson there, for sure. Have to be very careful with all dangly things on the fixie. Pants legs well tucked, shoelaces double-tied and double-checked, etc. If that had happened at speed, you'd have been in a world of hurt.


Caught one of my work uniform pants in the fixie once....luckily it just ripped a giant hole in them. Scared me, though!


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

roadfix said:


> suicide pants?


No doubt. 

Get a pair of Levis stuck in the chain, and it'll come loose just about the time your foot hits the ground and the pedal is getting ready to smack you midway up the calf. 

Like Lawrence Taylor's knee on Joe Theisman's leg. Only you'll be in traffic, on asphalt, and unpadded.

Yeah, it's a worse-case scenario, but it's only slightly less likely than the best-case, which still ruins a pair of pants and probably makes something bleed. Having seen it happen, I always turn a very generous cuff if I'm riding FG in street clothes.


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## BlackSteel (Jul 10, 2007)

*Portland Cyclewear*

I recently purchased a pair of pants mail order from Portland Cyclewear. They are much looser around the cuff than advertised even with the velcro bands. I rode with my flip flop on the singlespeed side and they almost caught. That got me thinking. Now I wear a rubberband on both cuffs every time I ride.


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## thepedddler (Feb 4, 2008)

*converting hubs???*

can a mavic ksyrium es or a chris king hub be converted to a fixed gear hub???


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## Jamieshankland (Jan 8, 2005)

I own two suicide wheels. One of them is at the track as a spare, and the other is on the back of my get around town / shyte weather training bike. You dont need loctite, or any epoxy at all. Infact I used grease to keep it from seizing. If you use your brakes all you need to do is thread the cog on. I weigh 200lbs, live in one of the steepest area's of Brittish Columbia and seldom use my brake. The sproket hasnt budged in 2 years.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

*Bump : thread revival*

It's cold outside , snowing and I don't fancy going out to the garage at night to check. With a suicide hub is the chainline affected much by screwing the cog hard up to the end of the threading or should I run a spacer of some sort in there? cheers KS.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

kiwisimon said:


> It's cold outside , snowing and I don't fancy going out to the garage at night to check. With a suicide hub is the chainline affected much by screwing the cog hard up to the end of the threading or should I run a spacer of some sort in there? cheers KS.


Depends, but usually the chainline is way off. However, you don't fix it with a spacer, which would dangerously reduce the number of threads engaged (and probably not give you enough movement anyway). You re-space the axle to put the cog in the right place, and then re-dish the wheel to center the rim.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

great thanks, knew there was more to it than I originally thought thought, thankfully haven't bought the rim and hub yet. Might be easier just to go with a proper fixed hub.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

will be using a disc brake. was only worried about chainline


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