# Landis and Armstrong rivalry



## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

Maybe there was something to what happened on Brasstown Bald between Lance and Floyd. On that climb Lance marked Floyd until the last kilometer where he attacked and repeated the exact same thing again today on Mt. Ventoux according to Graham Watson's account of the last few kilometers.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Different teams...*



dagger said:


> Maybe there was something to what happened on Brasstown Bald between Lance and Floyd. On the climb Lance marked Floyd until the last kilometer when he attacked again repeated the exact same thing happened again today on Mt. Ventoux according to Graham Watson's account of the last few kilometers.


Different teams and rivals. Are they supposed to ride up hand in hand? 

Armstrong trying to put time into Landis


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

Umm, Is something wrong with that? 

If Floyd can't hang then he can't hang. Floyd has every oppurtunity to attack
and/or follow Lance up the hill.

I don't see a 'rivalry'.




dagger said:


> Maybe there was something to what happened on Brasstown Bald between Lance and Floyd. On the climb Lance marked Floyd until the last kilometer when he attacked again repeated the exact same thing happened again today on Mt. Ventoux according to Graham Watson's account of the last few kilometers.


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## nwilkes (Jun 21, 2004)

dagger said:


> Maybe there was something to what happened on Brasstown Bald between Lance and Floyd. On the climb Lance marked Floyd until the last kilometer when he attacked again repeated the exact same thing happened again today on Mt. Ventoux according to Graham Watson's account of the last few kilometers.


could be intimidation. LA letting the young upstart know who the boss of the peleton is when in france or USA. make floyd think that however good he feels, LA will be stronger everytime. LA and Landis know each other well.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

I don't see much of a story with this so called rivalry. I think it's simply about competing.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Exactly...*



rocco said:


> I don't see much of a story with this so called rivalry. I think it's simply about competing.


Everyone is always so quick to point out how competitive in nature Armstrong is, yet when he attacks an old teammate someone questions his tactics?? He's just trying to win and put as much time into his rivals as possible, especially in a very close DL race going on right now. It's not to intimidate Landis either, I think I read a quote from Landis somewhere that read something like (paraphrasing here), "If you're not afraid of Armstrong, you haven't been paying attention." So as far as having respect for Armstrong, or even a strong fear of him on the bike, I think most have that already. It doesn't need to be "enforced" so to speak.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

rocco said:


> I don't see much of a story with this so called rivalry. I think it's simply about competing.



It is interesting that no one gets this treatment from Armstrong except Floyd. Can anyone leave his team w/out him being an a-hole to them? No big woof but jeez.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Where can I find "Graham Watson's account of the last few*

? I tried google with no luck. Can anyone point me towards his account of the race?


Thanks
--Niko


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## Sympatico (Apr 7, 2004)

Sintesi said:


> It is interesting that no one gets this treatment from Armstrong except Floyd. Can anyone leave his team w/out him being an a-hole to them? No big woof but jeez.



Do you actually watch bike racing? Armstrong, and everyone else that races a bike for that matter, makes a charge for the finish line in every stage - unless I guess if you are in the bus. If it were 3 or 4 lesser named racers and one beat the rest of the small pack to the line, no one would be talking about it. 

For the life of me, I cant figure out why it makes someone an a** hole for wanting to finish before the other guys. I thought that was why you would race a bike. Have you ever played a sport, bike racing or otherwise? Did you typically hold hands to the finish line? 

I dont get it. OK, back to lurking and laughing mode.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Hate to point this out...*



Sintesi said:


> It is interesting that no one gets this treatment from Armstrong except Floyd. Can anyone leave his team w/out him being an a-hole to them? No big woof but jeez.


I hate to point this out, but everyone aside from Lance's teammates get this treatment from him. It's not being an a-hole, it's being competitive, highly competitive. He's out to win, not make friends. If someone leaves his team, they are now competition, time to decimate them as well. I don't believe it's anything personal, well, in some cases it might be personal (see Livingston).


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## nagedzi (Oct 22, 2004)

*Graham Watson*



Old_school_nik said:


> ? I tried google with no luck. Can anyone point me towards his account of the race?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> --Niko


Graham Watson's accounts can be found on The Paceline


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

Sympatico said:


> Do you actually watch bike racing? Armstrong, and everyone else that races a bike for that matter, makes a charge for the finish line in every stage - unless I guess if you are in the bus. If it were 3 or 4 lesser named racers and one beat the rest of the small pack to the line, no one would be talking about it.
> 
> For the life of me, I cant figure out why it makes someone an a** hole for wanting to finish before the other guys. I thought that was why you would race a bike. Have you ever played a sport, bike racing or otherwise? Did you typically hold hands to the finish line?
> 
> I dont get it. OK, back to lurking and laughing mode.


Oh shaddup, cripes. You're just being personally insulting. 

I'm not talking about charging to the line I thought Dagger was saying Armstrong engaged in the "exact same" childish taunting that that he did on Brasstown bald. Charging to the line ahead of a marked opponent I have no problem with. 

But let's face it, Armstrong is never generous to his prior teammates in his comments and repeatedly engages in childishly petulant behavior on the road. It's obvious, nothing wrong in pointing it out. It's not even defensible behaviour from a sporting view, it's just a stupid character flaw on his part.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

nagedzi said:


> Graham Watson's accounts can be found on The Paceline



I just read it. I guess Watson really feels Floyd was singled out with no compelling competitive or sporting reason. Basically Armstrong inflicting work and humiliation on Landis. Competitive fires? Or just petty crappola? Sounds like the latter from Watson's account.

I know Floyd has made comments about Lance enjoying seeing him lose.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*ask Roberto*

when his threat at the tour was destroyed on the cobbles (along with Iban). he's very calculating about when to remove or damage his rivals. I think he's a tad petty, he seems to be yer either with me or against me so I'm sure he likes giving out a few "I told ya sos"
think Cofidis Team Bus at end of TdF 99.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*That is my impression*



atpjunkie said:


> he's very calculating about when to remove or damage his rivals. I think he's a tad petty, he seems to be yer either with me or against me ".


Graham Watson said "When you see how Lance made Landis work all the way up the climb, and then how he attacked his American rival at the end, it leaves little doubt about their relationship – on the bike at least! "\

This was the exact same scenerio in Georgia. It's like he was worried about noone else but Floyd. Floyd was the one who left DIsco last year and they tried to get him back when Phonak was faltering with their license for the Pro Tour, but Floyd still refused.


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## 97 Teran (Feb 17, 2004)

*I'm neutral on this issue*

in that I think both arguments are accurate- Lance has shown himself to be fairly petty at times, and yet what the hell do you expect in a race from a competitive rider whose former teammate is a major challenger for the overall? It'd be foolish not to mark Landis in a race. If Victor Hugo Pena comes up against him in a race, somehow I doubt Armstrong will mark him the same way...


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*How many of us would have dished a "told you so"*

At the Cofidid team bus after winning the TDF? His employer left him for dead and he is stuck with 1 million in hospital bills that he thinks he has no way to pay.... Then he comes back to be a successful rider again? I would have done the same thing. Its your right in that situation just as Cofidis said it was a buisness decision atthe time. 

Re: Watson article and Brasstown bald - how is it that Lance "made Floyd work" Floyd is free to drop off the pace or drop Lance or whatever. Besides from at least one account of the stage Lance led that group home for at least a few pulls - so it seems like he was sharing the work.

Of all the glaring reasons to dislike Lance his competitveness is not a very good one IMHO.

Besides, if you read as many bike sites as I do (and I assume many of you do) LAnce has plenty of nice things to say about Ex teamates...

NOTE: the Simeoni affair was classless, other than that just good high test racing.

-Nik


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## Sympatico (Apr 7, 2004)

*Not personal*



Sintesi said:


> Oh shaddup, cripes. You're just being personally insulting.
> 
> I'm not talking about charging to the line I thought Dagger was saying Armstrong engaged in the "exact same" childish taunting that that he did on Brasstown bald. Charging to the line ahead of a marked opponent I have no problem with.
> 
> But let's face it, Armstrong is never generous to his prior teammates in his comments and repeatedly engages in childishly petulant behavior on the road. It's obvious, nothing wrong in pointing it out. It's not even defensible behaviour from a sporting view, it's just a stupid character flaw on his part.



It is certainly not my intent to be personally insulting. It is my intent to question how something like this translates into a character flaw. It is also not my intent to be condescending but what I question is your, and many other posters I see here, true knowledge of what goes on in sports at a high level. Would you consider it poor behavior for a pitcher to knock a hitter down in an effort to gain a competitive edge on a hitter? Or would you consider some of the pushing and shoving that goes on under the basket, let alone the trash talking non defensible? I am sure a lot more stupid behavior goes on in the peleton but only Armstrongs is worthy of discussion. I guess thats life under the microscope. 

I guess I normally attribute the conversations or arguements that go on here to something similar to someone arguing over the Red Sox and Yankees. It is pretty natural to think your team and its players are always right and the other guys are bums and have no class. It just seems odd to me that so many people pick out so many little things and consider it a character flaw. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with you pointing this out and stating your position on it. Nor is there anything wrong with me disagreeing. I dont typically reply to post in this particular forum but I do find the discussions entertaining. I guess today I decided to be part of the enterainment. Pretty impressive that my first attempt and I've already been told to shadup.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*oh don't get me wrong*

I think nothing wrong with it. it's that same attitude that's put him on the podium. it's called being insanely competitive. look at how Anquetil f'd with Poulidor, same gig.

as for TdG LA did the right thing. mark the enemy GC guy while your GC leader rides off. sit on him until your guy establishes lead and is finished or near finished than attack. anything else and he may have dragged floyd up to Danielson. It was just good bike racing with a lame gesture at the end.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Reminds me of the Eddy / Badger style of racing intimidation and making a point. Big Mig wasn't the type to do this, but every other 5+ winner of le Tour sure was. 

It has been noted that Lance and Postal did not have the best split with Floyd (something about how he approached them or something), but that really doesn't matter in the end. When you can put time (and score some mental points) over your main rivals, you do it. 

Floyd needs to stop whining about it and either ride faster or keep his mouth shut IMHO. 

Levi on the other hand really is starting to look like a serious contender for the podium. Vino too, if he didn't ride for such a train wreck of a team. 3 leaders, and a sprinter too? What a disaster. . .


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Yeah..*



97 Teran said:


> in that I think both arguments are accurate- Lance has shown himself to be fairly petty at times, and yet what the hell do you expect in a race from a competitive rider whose former teammate is a major challenger for the overall? It'd be foolish not to mark Landis in a race. If Victor Hugo Pena comes up against him in a race, somehow I doubt Armstrong will mark him the same way...


The only petty thing I can think of Armstrong doing in the past was going after Simeoni last year in le Tour, but I even think that was awesome. I'm probably in the "other" category on my opinion of that. Once again, he as getting into his head, and getting after him. Hey, if I was in a race, and in a position to put the b-tch slap on someone who had been bad mouthing me and filed a lawsuit against me, I'd do the same thing. Right on. 

Anything else he's done has been for competition. Talking junk about your rivals is part of the game in any major professional sport, and it's part of the game in amateur sports as well. I wish I had a dime for everytime I either heard something, or was engaged in the actual trash talking during a bike race. I'd be a freakin' rich man. All of this nonsense about people thinking that bike racing is so gentlemanly and demure either haven't done it, or haven't been paying much attention. The rivalries and the smack talk is legendary, and has been going on I'm sure since the evolution of pro bike racing itself. It's just now, with Armstrong under the microscope, anything he does is placed out there in the cycling media. Hell, look at how many postings we have in here just about Lance-crap. His new TT bike, his love life, and so on... Someone else pointed out about Anquetil and Poulidor. They were constantly at each other. Merckx and well, just about anyone else during his are (Ocana comes to mind during some Tours). It's all about trying to psyche out your opponents, and getting into their heads. If you can win the mental battle, and have the physical skills to back it up, well, you're all that much better I think.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

magnolialover said:


> The only petty thing I can think of Armstrong doing in the past was going after Simeoni last year in le Tour, but I even think that was awesome. I'm probably in the "other" category on my opinion of that. Once again, he as getting into his head, and getting after him. Hey, if I was in a race, and in a position to put the b-tch slap on someone who had been bad mouthing me and filed a lawsuit against me, I'd do the same thing. Right on.
> 
> Anything else he's done has been for competition. Talking junk about your rivals is part of the game in any major professional sport, and it's part of the game in amateur sports as well. I wish I had a dime for everytime I either heard something, or was engaged in the actual trash talking during a bike race. I'd be a freakin' rich man. All of this nonsense about people thinking that bike racing is so gentlemanly and demure either haven't done it, or haven't been paying much attention. The rivalries and the smack talk is legendary, and has been going on I'm sure since the evolution of pro bike racing itself. It's just now, with Armstrong under the microscope, anything he does is placed out there in the cycling media. Hell, look at how many postings we have in here just about Lance-crap. His new TT bike, his love life, and so on... Someone else pointed out about Anquetil and Poulidor. They were constantly at each other. Merckx and well, just about anyone else during his are (Ocana comes to mind during some Tours). It's all about trying to psyche out your opponents, and getting into their heads. If you can win the mental battle, and have the physical skills to back it up, well, you're all that much better I think.


Gosh, I hope you meant during his era and not are. Thats strange..Glad I was there to spot it as you are a self confessed "One of Those Guys". Spell checkers are cool, but its that whole content intent thing. 

Anyway, every (stick in great cyclist name) era has had a rivalry. Coppi Bartoli etc etc etc .

Personally, its obvious to me that Landis does not have the goods to win a GT yes so why not have some fun at the opponents expense? I believe thats called a race. Strange huh?


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

"Do you actually watch bike racing? ....Have you ever played a sport, bike racing or otherwise? Did you typically hold hands to the finish line? "


That's not being condescending or insulting? Not your "intention" 

Give me a break.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Did I say something was wrong with it.*



bas said:


> Umm, Is something wrong with that?
> 
> If Floyd can't hang then he can't hang. Floyd has every oppurtunity to attack
> and/or follow Lance up the hill.
> ...


Nope. I sure didn't say anything of that nature. I am saying there is obviously a rivalry, nothing more, nothing less.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Nope*



Sintesi said:


> I thought Dagger was saying Armstrong engaged in the "exact same" childish taunting that that he did on Brasstown bald. Charging to the line ahead of a marked opponent I have no problem with.
> 
> But let's face it, Armstrong is never generous to his prior teammates in his comments and repeatedly engages in childishly petulant behavior on the road. It's obvious, nothing wrong in pointing it out. It's not even defensible behaviour from a sporting view, it's just a stupid character flaw on his part.


I merely noted that it's obvious Lance is singling him out if the opportunity is there. I have not stated a personal opinion on the behavior itself.


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## R.Rice (Aug 23, 2004)

Sintesi said:


> . But let's face it, Armstrong is never generous to his prior teammates in his comments and repeatedly engages in childishly petulant behavior on the road.





Cyclingnews.com said:


> Levi Leipheimer did not have the best of days, as even before he crashed, he knew his jersey would be taken by Landaluze. "I was riding hard and carelessly," he explained. "I should have known better. I misjudged a corner and hit the ground." Leipheimer took skin off his elbow and thigh, but will be able to start tomorrow's stage. He didn't lose any time to the other main GC riders, after *Lance Armstrong* convinced the peloton to wait for him while he came back


Never say never.......


I have to laugh at some of you guys.Lance could win every stage by 10 minutes before checking to see every rider in the peloton has enough food and water and some of you guys would still fault him.

My line of thinking goes hand-in-hand with Coolhand.He is a professional athelete and is there to win by out riding,physically punishing and striking fear in his competitors.Tell me,how would you people that think he is a petty a-hole go about being so nice to the competition while still doing the three things I just listed?


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*I'm with Lance.*

He's vicious, sure, but he's also a sportsman. I haven't been following cycling long enough to know all the ins and outs of it, but, comparing Armstrong to the likes of other American sports figures (Rasheed Wallace, anyone?), it seems obvious to me he just wants to win. What the press picks up and focuses on, I'm sure, isn't the whole story much of the time, but I read this today :

In the D-L, Levi Leipheimer crashed while in a breakaway ... and he's a major GC contender. "Leipheimer took skin off his elbow and thigh, but will be able to start tomorrow's stage. He didn't lose any time to the other main GC riders, after Lance Armstrong convinced the peloton to wait for him while he came back."

Now, would Landis have gotten the same treatment? I don't know. One thing I know from reading his books and about his actions is that LA gets really angry when he feels someone does something 'unsportsmanlike.' I just re-watched the 2000 TdF; how he said he had a 'lot of respect for ... the best climber in the world,' about Marco Pantani, and he seemed genuinely hurt when Pantani said some disparaging remarks about him. There's the Cofidis thing, the deal with Simeoni, and I think a few others. I think I'd have done a lot of the same things. Except, of course, for win le Tour...


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## Sympatico (Apr 7, 2004)

*Honestly*

I honestly dont thing those statements are condescending or insulting. You stated that only Armstrongs former team mates get this treatment which is obviously not the case. It happens all the time with all sorts of riders. 

If you were insulted, then I sincerely apologize. I dont actually have a gripe with you I just have a difference of opinion. Others on this board are more articulate but I guess the point I was trying to make, and unfortunately I chose your post to respond to, was that if Eddy does it, it is cool, he's the Cannibal. If Armstrong does it, he is a jerk with no character. Just seems ironically petty to me.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

R.Rice said:


> Never say never.......
> 
> 
> I have to laugh at some of you guys.Lance could win every stage by 10 minutes before checking to see every rider in the peloton has enough food and water and some of you guys would still fault him.
> ...



I'm not saying he IS a petty a-hole. But he CAN BE a petty a-hole and it does happen quite a bit. I like him fine but please the guy is an egomaniac and can be a real jerk. I don't find that to be an admirable quality no matter how it serves him competitively if at all. In the final analysis, is he a good guy? Even a great guy? Sure, I'd agree with that but he does strike me as a sort of prickly character. I get the impression that Armstrong sucks up the oxygen whenever he enters a team bus. That his underlings kind of tread lightly in his presence. Fine he's the boss but I've oftern wondered if Armstrong is kind of a self-centered boor in real life. 

Remember his comments about Livingston being a traitor by going to Telekom? The Elephantino crap with Pantani, even tugging his jersey on the decent of the Izoard ( I think that was the climb) in 2000? That was nice for the cameras. Sure he waited for Ullrich but when Jan returned the favor in '03 what does LA say? something generous? Magnanimous and classy? Nope, "Not sure Jan waited" Blah blah blah... He never seems to have anything really kind or sympathetic to say about anyone who's left his team. He's always reserved about stuff like that. 

I dunno, just something I noticed a long while back and i think it's basically the vestiges of his character prior to cancer when he was a cocky a-hole texan that everyone seems to agree was a good assessment. Even he says so in his book, Read the section on Moreno Argentin if you want to catch my drift. 

Suddenly post-cancer he's this big misunderstood saint. Please. He's just a guy and he acts like a real jerk from time to time. That's it, no need to defend him.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

*Watson reports*



dagger said:


> Graham Watson said "When you see how Lance made Landis work all the way up the climb, and then how he attacked his American rival at the end, it leaves little doubt about their relationship – on the bike at least! "\
> 
> This was the exact same scenerio in Georgia. It's like he was worried about noone else but Floyd. Floyd was the one who left DIsco last year and they tried to get him back when Phonak was faltering with their license for the Pro Tour, but Floyd still refused.


I am not sure I am buying some of the Watson's reports. If anything, Floyd should be glad that Lance singles him out as a potential contender - it's a compliment of sorts, if he is constantly worried about him. And I can see how after losing Tour of Georgie Lance may have something to prove to Landis. 

But this Lance/Landis rivalry is blown way out of proportion, just like Simeoni incident.
It's a race for gods sake - if you get dropped (or chased as in case of Simeoni), it's part of the race. Anyone in the race is free to single out any other rider and chase them, or drop them any time they like, there should be nothing "unethical" or strange about it - it's a definition of a "race"!

And some of Watson's accounts don't seem to add up - if Lance attacked to chase Vino, both Landis and Leipheimer could go with him. Seems to me Leipheimer had the power to go with Lance's attack and Landis couldn't. That Lance waited for Leipheimer makes sense as he needs someone (anyone) to work with him. If anything, Landis could have caught up with both of them while Lance was "waiting". Aside from putting sticks into Landis wheels, nobody can really stop Landis from going with Lance, if he was strong enough to do so. Frankly, I don't think Landis is just in such a good climbing shape so far this year - he lost over a minute to Lance/Leipheimer group today - perhaps Landis fans want to blame this on Lance not "waiting" for Landis, I can see that.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Lighten up..*

It makes good conversation. Besides, after Saturday how can anyone say that Lance is not sticking it to Floyd everytime he gets a chance.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Looks like Landis somehow pissed off Armstrong, but you may have to buy Coyle's book to get the full story. Here's an interview that touches on it:

http://www.booknoise.net/armstrong/qanda.html


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

I still don't see how Landis is pissed off.

Anyways, that link made for some good reading.




Utah CragHopper said:


> Looks like Landis somehow pissed off Armstrong, but you may have to buy Coyle's book to get the full story. Here's an interview that touches on it:
> 
> http://www.booknoise.net/armstrong/qanda.html


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

bas said:


> I still don't see how Landis is pissed off.
> 
> Anyways, that link made for some good reading.


Coyle says Landis in the same situation as one of Armstrong's other friends, who Armstrong had a tiff with and refused to speak to for a couple of years. He clearly implies something happened between Landis and Armstrong; unfortunately he doesn't give any details.

Look's like Watson read the race right.

The interview does pretty much back up Sintesi's view of Armstrong posted earlier in the thread, although it seems that Coyle is unwilling to call a spade a spade.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Thanks for that link. Intersting.*

I didn't read this whole thread but after Lance published Every Second Counts - Floyd in some interview, said that he wished Lance had told him he was going to put the part about Floyd being undiscliplined and having a day spent drinking 20 Capuccino's and how lance got him focussed. I remember Floyd saying something like I didn't even know it was going ot be in the book. His tone seemed pissed at the time.

Other than that I just haven't seen anything that would lead folks to thinking they had a beef more serious than 2 competitiors and team leaders getting ready to face each other in the first meaninful battleground since FL left Postal.

-nik


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## txzen (Apr 6, 2005)

Floyd on the taunt:
'There are no unwritten rules about a celebration at the finish line,” Landis told VeloNews afterward. “But it’s up to fans to decide on a person’s character based on their reaction [to] beating someone.” 

Eh. Mennonites are pussies, anyway. The Amish can kick their butts any day, and still take time for the sabbath.


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## symbo (Dec 7, 2004)

if Eddy does it, it is cool, he's the Cannibal. If Armstrong does it, he is a jerk with no character. Just seems ironically petty to me.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, I've wordered about this disparity before. Most uber-successfull althletes display egotistic, jerky qualities. It's part of the architype.

You can have great respect for their riding while having less for their personality.


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