# Hill climb tips?



## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

I believe it is time to ask for some advice.. I have been riding 20-40 miles trips 1-2 times a week. I live in a valley so every direction there are climbs. Not sure the grade matters for the sake of discussion, but I'd say it is avg 8-10% that I have trouble with, especially if sustained over half a mile with no breaks.

I am focusing on clearing a climb without stopping, I don't like stopping in the middle of a steep climb. I wanted to manage my heart rate, I set an alarm to a number which I know if sustained will cause me to blow up. This helps alot, I hope this number will go up a bit overtime.

I try to separate my cadence away from breathing, I found it helps to take slower, deep breaths for as long as I can, this keeps the HR calm(er), I will pant like a dog later but I try to save that towards the end or unless it is necessary. I found that once I ended up panting then HR goes up and I could blow up.

At some point when it gets hard enough, I lose my form and no more smooth pedal stroke, stop caring about cadence, already on the 34-25 going as well as I could. I alternate standing and sitting.. I am going 5-6mph. I am standing up with hands on the bars, I stroke the bike forward like a row boat. 

So is this an OK way to train? Of course, I want to get faster. I think you get better at it by actually doing it. It would help to repeat the roads so I memorize what is coming up and push myself to the top than over conserving..

So there are the 6% hills and 10% hills, should I always go on the 10% or going up the 6% at a faster pace, will it also help the process


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## Jacksonmw (Sep 23, 2004)

*Temporary change in gearing...*



PoorCyclist said:


> I believe it is time to ask for some advice.. I have been riding 20-40 miles trips 1-2 times a week. I live in a valley so every direction there are climbs. Not sure the grade matters for the sake of discussion, but I'd say it is avg 8-10% that I have trouble with, especially if sustained over half a mile with no breaks.
> 
> I am focusing on clearing a climb without stopping, I don't like stopping in the middle of a steep climb. I wanted to manage my heart rate, I set an alarm to a number which I know if sustained will cause me to blow up. This helps alot, I hope this number will go up a bit overtime.
> 
> ...




From my own experience, to you will probably gain strength over time, and fitness as well that will make the hills easier, but never easy. Another method to consider is to change the cluster ratios a little so that you can keep the cadence up a little even when on the really steep bits and out of breath. By the sounds of it you are reaching your limits when the form goes, and that is not a great feeling (personal experience). I don't know what rear mech you are using, but there is a good range of clusters with 27 tooth cogs or higher ie 28 will work with new Ultegra, not sure about others. Easier gearing for a period would help you ride the last part of the hills with some more control and should help you build up. 

As to the actual grade you should train on, probably the 6% until you can do this at a reasonable cadence, and then once there get on the the 10%ers


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

One big piece of advice... R-E-L-A-X! Relax and let your legs spin. We have a tendency to tense up and that wastes a lot of energy. Just stay nice and loose, don't tense up the upper body and you'll notice a difference.


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## skizzle86 (Apr 15, 2010)

Dajianshan said:


> One big piece of advice... R-E-L-A-X! Relax and let your legs spin. We have a tendency to tense up and that wastes a lot of energy. Just stay nice and loose, don't tense up the upper body and you'll notice a difference.


Dajianshan is spot on, keep your hand off the hoods and on the horizontal bar and relax your body. Don't waste any excess energy by stroking the bike, just isolate your legs focus on your core.

Gearing plays a role as well, some prefer a standard crank and a higher tooth cassette other prefer a compact crank, see what works for you in order to maintain a comfortable spinning cadence. Right now I'm a on a standard 39/53T with a 12-25 cassette, which I find doesn't provide me with enough gears through some of the steep climbs in So Cal's Mulholland drive.

Also it helps to climb different routes. I used to climb the same route and never saw improvement until I started climbing longer and steeper routes. After tackling harder climbs my speeds on the regular climbing route increased and I didn't find myself hitting the wall.


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## old'n'slow (Sep 4, 2007)

I come from the perspective that any hill climbing is going to help, even though I'm not great at climbing. As your fitness improves, hills definitely get easier and that will allow you to try various approaches. 

You might try doing hill repeats on the 6% grade for a while (a few weeks), then throw in the occasional 10% grade to check your progress. In any event, just keep grinding....


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

I will echo what Dajianshan & skizzle86 said. Great advice, for sure. 

Also, you say that you regularly tackle 8-10% climbs. Those are pretty steep, and would give most anyone a hard time. So don't feel bad.

One of the big keys to climbing for me, is fast recovery time. Sure, you want to take the hill as fast as possible, and there's nothing wrong with that. There are times to push it into the Red Zone, and there are times to back off a bit. Slowing your pace a bit and spinning and getting back under your anaerobic threshold and recovering quick means you can push it again.

Also, there is no wrong way to climb. Sitting the whole way, standing, combination of the two... whatever. This is a very personal thing... like which saddle you use. No wrong answers here!


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## tethernaut (Dec 11, 2008)

I find that I post my best times up the climbs I do regularly when I keep the effort up the climb very even the whole way. It takes some time to learn how to pace yourself so that you keep just below the red zone the whole way.

However, in order to raise my red zone, I find it best to mix in some workouts where I do hill attack intervals, going above threshold for a minute, soft pedaling for a minute, and repeating.

For the really steep stuff (>10%), you also need to build up leg strength and muscle endurance so that you can keep pedaling smooth circles without blowing. What has helped for me was finding a local hill that averages 15% for about half a mile. The first time I tried it, it broke me. But I kept at it and eventually I got so I could do it three time in a row, and after doing that hill, any other hill is a piece of cake.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Relaxed attitude + persistence will get you about. Complete every climb/repeat, and try not to run to a bailout gear if you've already got leeway to have one. You'd have to be doing some blatantly ridiculous things to injure yourself imo: way too heavy a gear, over-training, relying on single muscle groups. Specific technique is only going to come naturally from riding more hills and mix it up. You get a (new) sense of the "pedaling" circle on a climb, noticing more-exact moments leverage points and dead spots. 

Another key is momentum. It could decide the outcome of being physically able to finish a climb sometimes. With asthma, I sometimes thrive off heavier gears so I don't spin my lungs out. But in general, I do suggest getting a decent spinning form.

Equipment-wise, there's gearing, but I'm also critical of stems. Since Spring, I've added 20mm and increased the angle by 11 degrees for more drop. I'm contemplating another 10mm. Most KOM contenders opt for longer stems because reach fit is less focused on the hoods and drops, and more on the tops. I've previously dismissed use of the tops in another post, but I've been experimenting with positions and have higher consideration for them. 

Just like length, the focus of fitting drop height can serve more specific purposes. Lower bars are another trend for out of saddle positioning. Personally, I'm with this because it spaces out the upper body better for higher grades where you may lean more forward. Of course, if it bends your back too much, not a good idea.


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## red elvis (Sep 9, 2010)

(this is the tip that i got from my friend at my lbs.)

when i am about to start to climb:
i slow down about one mph slower than my usual speed.
i grab the downbar, lean forward and look down once in a while to reduce air drag.
i relax.
i pedal in a steady pace throughout the entire climb.
and then i do it again and again to get better. ;D


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## Rhymenocerus (Jul 17, 2010)

Just climb more and it will get easier. Your alternating standing and sitting is actually a great strategy imo, works different muscle groups.

I also live in a valley and my triple is my best friend. Lets me keep my cadence manageable on those LONG climbs.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Good advice thus far.

As mentioned already.. don't be afraid to throw a 27 tooth granny on the bike.. I'm not a strong climber and I'm building my new bike with 12-25 instead of 11-23.. The little extra gearing might help someday. 

Also... Open up your jersey.. try to get cool. The slower speed and decreased air movement will increase your cooking temp. Try to lower that and you'll simmer instead of boiling.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Get a cassette with a 27 or 28t cog. Being overgeared and struggling makes you slower. I often pass people in the latter parts of climbing races who started out fast on gearing that was a little too high.

Start your climbs a little easier. Make getting up the climb the goal. Worry about how fast you're going later. It takes practice to learn how to pace yourself. You need to feel for the limit by both going easier than the limit and going harder. 

Your ideas on breathing are correct. Panting is bad. Make sure your upper body is relaxed. If you're clenching your fists and stiffening your shoulders that's energy that isn't going into climbing. I check to see if I am relaxed by flapping my elbows. Try not to grimace, that uses energy too.

I'd take the alarm off the HR meter. On climbs where you are going hard, go ahead and go for it. You can go harder than you think you can.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Just ride. You'll get stronger. Ride steeps sometimes; ride the longer easier grades sometimes. If you can't make it up a half-mile of 10% grade without "blowing up" (what does that mean, exactly?) and having to stop, you just need to get fitter. You've got plenty of gearing (you guys advising a 27 or 28 cog, remember he's got a 34-tooth ring, so his low is equivalent to a 39x29), and you're doing the right thing by varying cadence and position. Maybe even just ride without the HR monitor for a while. You're overthinking it, IMHO.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> Just ride. You'll get stronger. Ride steeps sometimes; ride the longer easier grades sometimes. If you can't make it up a half-mile of 10% grade without "blowing up" (what does that mean, exactly?) and having to stop, you just need to get fitter. *You've got plenty of gearing (you guys advising a 27 or 28 cog, remember he's got a 34-tooth ring, so his low is equivalent to a 39x29*), and you're doing the right thing by varying cadence and position. Maybe even just ride without the HR monitor for a while. You're overthinking it, IMHO.


39x29 at 90 rpm is 9.7 mph. The Op said he's down to 5-6 at some points so that would put him around 50 RPM. So I'll have to disagree with that comment.

Anyway OP, it sounds like you're on the right track and I can't add much to what's been said.

I'd probably do away with the alarm though at least occasionally. What you are doing there is smart for a race when you can't afford to blow up but from a training perspective in order to increase the point of when you blow up you probably need to go over it now and then. Not all the time of course because the resulting slow down isn't any good for training but I think to increase a limit you need to experience over that limit from time to time.


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## slonoma98 (Jun 22, 2005)

I have 2 methods I usually use:

1) If I feel strong I usually get in the drops and slide forward on my seat and spin. 

2) If I'm a bit tired I alternate between sitting and standing. To me it feels like I can cheat a little by using my entire body to get the bike up the hill.

I have a standard crank and 12-25 cassette. I usually start climbs in the middle of the cassette leaving me extra cogs to go lighter if I need. Keeping your momentum and trying to relax is key. Things I focus on during a climb are my breathing, heart rate, keeping my pedaling smooth, and not having a death grip on my handlebar. The most important thing I was told: Never ever focus on the top of the hill. Makes everything hurt twice as much.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Hank Stamper said:


> 39x29 at 90 rpm is 9.7 mph. The Op said he's down to 5-6 at some points so that would put him around 50 RPM. So I'll have to disagree with that comment..


Well, there are different approaches to this issue. If he really wants to be able to maintain 90 rpm at the speeds he can maintain (in current condition) on his steepest climbs, the advice to get a 28 or 29 is meaningless -- he needs a triple, plus a honkin' big MTB cassette (30x34 at 5 mph is still only about 72 rpm). 

But most of us don't choose to carry around a low gear that will get us up the steepest hill at the "optimum" 90 cadence. We learn to climb effectively at lower rpm for those occasional efforts. I have a few stretches on regular routes that get me down well below 5 mph (>15% grades). That means a cadence below 40. I can stand up and gut that out for a quarter-mile without damage. My understanding of his post is that these steep stretches aren't too long -- though maybe that's incorrect. If I were regularly climbing 10% grades that go on 3 miles or more, I'd probably get a triple. 

Anyway, when he gets a little stronger he won't be going quite that slow. I really don't think gearing is his big issue. It's mostly conditioning. I think we agree on that.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> ....................It's mostly conditioning. I think we agree on that.


yes, we do. I agree with the rest too.........I think the picture I got from the OP had him at 5-6 mph for more time than the picture you got. Totally agree there's no need to carry around a gear just so you can do 90 rpm a few hundred yards here and there. But if he's constantly bogged down to 50 ish RPM for longish stretches.....then it's time to get some different gears.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for your responses, I have searched and read so many post on this subject, but this is best for me. I caught myself having a rather firm grip on the handle bars are couple of times. It was a waste of energy. 

Everytime I do the same course it gets a little easier, providing I ate and slept properly.

I don't want to get too techy about it, I don't have a cadence sensor and don't plan to get one. I do use a GPS watch that logs location speed and HR, so I can see if I am going up faster or not. I can also race my previous run.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Don't make every climb a race or fitness test. Start more slowly, and in a lower gear, than you think you need to.

I don't think an HRM is a very reliable way of regulating effort. I'd learn how to pace yourself without any gadgetry.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

PoorCyclist said:


> Everytime I do the same course it gets a little easier, providing I ate and slept properly.
> .


Sounds like you're doing the right things. Regualr progress is a good sign. 

I'm still curious what exactly happens when you "blow up." Are you just completely unable to keep moving, so you have to bail out and stop? Does the limitation seem to be leg muscles, or cardio-vascular? i.e., do you feel like your legs can't stand the pain, or are you totally out of breath and feel like you're fainting or gasping? Have you tried just standing up and going as slowly as you can, and trying to recover a little that way?

And just how deep is your valley? How long are these climbs?

I'm trying to get a picture of what you're facing. I live in a place that's hilly, but not really mountainous. The longest continuous climbs are 3-4 miles, usually at 5-6%, but sometimes a little harder, with short stretches much steeper. I can't remember the last time I had to actually stop on a climb around here. When I've visited other places and done really long climbs, I've had to stop sometimes, but that's only when the climbing goes on for an hour or more (the road up the Haleakala volcano on Maui isn't too steep - about 5% most of the way - but it goes on forever, 10,000 feet in 38 miles. I had to take some breaks on that one, even with a triple).

Maybe you could post a googlemaps link to one of your tougher stretches of road. I'm curious. Maybe these climbs are harder than you realize.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Well, that's why I didn't really think the grade matter too much, it's relative to everyone.
I don't think the climbs I am doing are difficult, yet it would easily make my wife throw the bike and walk home 

By blowing up I mean I have to stop due to out of breath or cardio or something not sure which.. legs was not the issure but I'd say they were probably 75% fatiqued.
Also, I ride 5-10 miles to get to these places and possibly take routes that have a slight incline to get there.

Here is one I am training on, for example. On the first try I had trouble reaching the summit, just about 1/8" mile short, note that mapmyride dilutes the grade heavily.. I saw some 15% when plotting shorter distances.

when I get better I am going to train from the other side which is a little steeper still, it looks like this.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

PoorCyclist said:


> , it looks like this.



Oh, man. We can rule out not having a nice place to train as an issue here.
Just out of curiosity where is that?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Okay, I have a better picture now. I found the road on some other topo maps (this is Livermore, right?) and I think you're underestimating some of the grades. I think the road you posted goes well over 10% (maybe close to 15%) near the top, and the other side gets well past 15%. 

So those are steep. You're doing fine. Don't worry about it. Work on the standing form, because you really need that for pitches like that unless you put a triple on the bike.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Yes, that is Patterson Pass in Livermore..
I think road race are held there every year

http://www.steephill.tv/galleries/2005/patterson/

I will keep working at it. Thanks


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## 2Slo4U (Feb 12, 2005)

That picture makes me want to go climb....


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

2Slo4U said:


> That picture makes me want to go climb....


I also watched this video a few times.. gives me inspiration


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Nice! I didn't have to look it up, I have ridden Patterson many times from both directions.

The steep part on either side is at the top. If you arrive at the steep part already going anaerobic and in your lowest gear, you're going to be in trouble. This is why you need to go a little slower earlier on the climb. If that puts you at too low an rpm then you need lower gears.

Of course if you're racing over it your pace is dictated by the race. This year there was a stiff headwind and I was happy to have the 34x27 low. I made it over with the leading 10 or so riders. But on Altamont the wind was a tailwind and I was spun out in the 50x12. It's always been enough for me but not at sustained 40 mph on the flat! Next time I'll bring an 11t cog.

The west side of Patterson was one of the first climbs I did when I moved back to Livermore not long after taking up cycling. I can still remember the feeling of accomplishment I had from topping it.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

IMO The best way to climb is to enjoy it. Climbing is part and parcel of cycling embrace it. 
I live in a hilly area where 1000/1500 ft of climbing per 10 miles is the norm and 10%+ climbs are everywhere I ride. As a consequence climbing is just the way it is for me and my mates - no big deal. 
If you go looking for and ride every 15% hill you can find. Over time 10% will not seem that steep no matter how long it goes on for.


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## voodooguy (Aug 18, 2007)

Damn, my heart rate red zoned just looking at this!


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## Brechi98 (Nov 26, 2010)

PoorCyclist said:


> Yes, that is Patterson Pass in Livermore..
> I think road race are held there every year
> 
> http://www.steephill.tv/galleries/2005/patterson/
> ...


You ever ride Del Puerto Canyon?


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## rs_herhuth (Aug 17, 2009)

Drive to the base of that beast, get your bike out...and following a spinning warm up for 10 minutes attack the hill with blatant disregard for saving energy. Go as far as you possibly can then turn around and spin for double the amount of time you climbed then do it again and again...each time you will go less distance but the important part here is to increase your vow max and lactate threshold.

Don't worry about not riding the whole ride...the work you will do on that hill will outdo all of the junk miles trying to save yourself for the hills.

We have a nasty grade on our route that killed me and no matter what I did I was still bonking after the first 100 yards of a 15% grade. Someone gave me the advice I'm giving you and I did that for a month...now I can complete the entire climb 3 times in a row...and my flat speed has increased too.

Some other things I find helpful...don't look ahead look down in front of you...nothing is more demoralizing than seeing how much further you have to go.

Move around in the saddle while climbing...move rearward for the steep sections and move forward a bit during the "easier" sections. This will recruit different muscle groups.

A controversial one that helped me... Don't pull up on the pedals...concentrate on making your power only on the downstroke. Pulling up uses mostly the calf muscles which are far less powerful...but steal valuable oxygen in the blood...so in effect it is robbing your larger muscle groups of the much needed oxygen almost 50% of the time. Switch to only pulling up and not applying power on the downstroke when the grade evens out. This will keep the blood flowing but it will give your powerful muscles time to metabolize the lactic acid build up.

I always try to stand near the end of the climb to power over the top. This also forces the lactic acid through the muscles...it will burn but you are training your body to recover under stress. Just think of it as money in your metabolic bank account.

People are always surprised they can push their bodies farther than the perceived limit and still retain endurance. Saving yourself for a specific part does nothing but slow you down. The mind is your cruel weapon when it comes to endurance events. Pretend everybody is watching you...that way slowing down is not an option.

Good luck!


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for your tips, that's a good challenge, I think I will try that also, maybe more productive than crawling to the top.


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## rs_herhuth (Aug 17, 2009)

Oh make no mistake...you will wish you were crawling up the hill. This process is killer. The goal is to leave everything on the climb...you won't have to worry about saving anything...because you are not riding home...no excuses.

As a side note the first time you do this your stomach will be killing from your bodies inability to re-metabolize the lactic acid. After a few hill repeat sessions you won't feel the sickness ...I've even been sick following these efforts. As I was once told that if you can walk when finished do another one!

The pain will always be there it just gets different...and you'll be faster. With every pedal stroke you take just think of it as pain you will cause others trying to keep up with you!


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

PoorCyclist said:


> I also watched this video a few times.. gives me inspiration
> 
> Great Video. He forgot to mention another important factor in becoming a good climber (but he definitely displays it).
> 
> Become really, really, really skinny.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Poncharelli said:


> PoorCyclist said:
> 
> 
> > I also watched this video a few times.. gives me inspiration
> ...


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

Ride more.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Follow the instructions on Girbecco's sign



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