# Hed Ardennes vs. Zipp 101



## danlarkin (Jun 28, 2012)

I like the (claimed) advantages of 23mm wide rims, and I think I've got my choices narrowed down to the Ardennes and 101s.

Some of my thoughts playing into my indecision:

- The Ardennes SLs are about 100g lighter, at 1450g, and apparently most of the 101s weight is in the rims. There are some pretty good hills (~10mi long) that I ride, but they're about 15mi away, so a majority of my ride is riding TO/FROM the hill rather than UP the hill

- The 101s are claimed to be more aero, but how much will that really help me? I do a lot of solo riding, but a majority of my time is on the hoods, so would I get more of a benefit my improving my position rather than an "aero" wheel? And maybe that's true, but is that a reason not to get the 101s?

- The Zipp hubs are supposedly quite a bit better than Hed's

- The 101s brake track is angled inwards towards the tire, losing some of the advantages of the truly wider rim of the Ardennes. Does this negate some (any?) of the claimed wider rim advantages? Hed recommends running Ardennes with a lower tire pressure (11%), but Zipp recommends no such thing. Obviously it's possible to run any wheel with a lower pressure, but you're generally increasing the risk of pinch flats; the Ardennes (supposedly) avoid this risk because the rim width is the same as the tire, does the 101s curved brake track "give up" this advantage?

- As much as it may be true that the 101s are more aero... by how much is the real question. Is it perhaps only slightly more than the Ardennes?

- I prefer the aesthetics of the Ardennes; Zipp wheels seem a little ostentatious to me


I'd love to hear opinions from anyone who has ridden either wheelset, but ideally from those who have ridden both.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Both wheels are similarly priced, about the same durability. The Zipps are heavier, so maybe that will make a small difference (though it is probably not noticeable). Both use wider rims. Neither is a standout choice over the other one. So maybe look to see which one you can get the better deal price wise on and pick that.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

I thought the Zipps were harsher and less comfortable than all the HED C2 wheels I've ridden. Zipp's freewheels noise is also a little more obnoxious.


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## BillyWayne (Aug 1, 2011)

How much are you willing to spend? If you are looking for 23mm wide rims there are other choices out there like the Boyd Vitesse, A23s, and others that will cost a lot less.


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## L_Johnny (Jul 15, 2006)

The Ardenes GP are on sale today 7/10 at competitive on their TDF special deal-of-the-day... $450


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

I just got a set of the Hed's. I haven't riden on them yet. I am thinking about sending them back. The only thing I can tell you is if your frame is tight with regular wheels you might have a problem with 23mm wide rims. My Ridley cant really clear 25s in the back with out rubbing on the frame. With the Hed's and 23s it looks like they might rub if there is any wheel flex at all.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

L_Johnny said:


> The Ardenes GP are on sale today 7/10 at competitive on their TDF special deal-of-the-day... $450


I saw that, mighty tempting.


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## danlarkin (Jun 28, 2012)

skepticman said:


> I thought the Zipps were harsher and less comfortable than all the HED C2 wheels I've ridden. Zipp's freewheels noise is also a little more obnoxious.


I'm about 155lbs and not a sprinter so I'm not going to be flexing wheels to their limit, so being "too harsh" is of concern... or rather achieving a smooth ride is. I guess you're saying the 101s aren't so smooth.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm not too sure about the Zipp hubs being that good at all. They tend to dry out very quickly and I have seen many times where the flanges have either microcracks or complete failures. I would definitely be a skeptic of the Zipp hubs.


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## Urb (Jul 19, 2010)

I haven't any issue with my zipp hubs but my buddies 101 rear self destructed a few weeks back. Luckly we noticed in the parking lot and not on a decent. Looks like fractures around the spoke holes on the rim. Scary. Regardless he got another 101 rear as a replacement.


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## givethepigeye (Aug 23, 2009)

If you aren't buying the CC deal today, why not just have the HED's built? I have the HED C2 Belgiums laced to King r45's couldn't be happier, and was cheaper than off the shelf. Check your frame for clearance. My previous alloy wheelset was Kysrium SL, HED's roll nicer IMHO.


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## danlarkin (Jun 28, 2012)

Urb said:


> I haven't any issue with my zipp hubs but my buddies 101 rear self destructed a few weeks back. Luckly we noticed in the parking lot and not on a decent. Looks like fractures around the spoke holes on the rim. Scary. Regardless he got another 101 rear as a replacement.


Despite its blowup (errors happen in any manufacturing process I guess?) does he like his 101s? Any comments about the weight or rolling or anything like that?


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## danlarkin (Jun 28, 2012)

givethepigeye said:


> If you aren't buying the CC deal today, why not just have the HED's built? I have the HED C2 Belgiums laced to King r45's couldn't be happier, and was cheaper than off the shelf. Check your frame for clearance. My previous alloy wheelset was Kysrium SL, HED's roll nicer IMHO.


Yes that's another option... it's tough to decide! The C2 rims are available only in aluminum, and only drilled 20+, while the Ardennes SL are made with a lighter alloy (scandium?) and the front is an 18H. Think this makes any difference?


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## jcgill (Jul 20, 2010)

I dont think HED is making the Belgium C2 Clincher hoops anymore, at least thats what i was told when i wanted to use them in a wheelset build a few months ago.

They would rather sell you their complete wheels


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## danlarkin (Jun 28, 2012)

jcgill said:


> I dont think HED is making the Belgium C2 Clincher hoops anymore, at least thats what i was told when i wanted to use them in a wheelset build a few months ago.
> 
> They would rather sell you their complete wheels


I spoke to a Hed CSR a few days ago and he said they do indeed sell just the C2 rims, but not in low spoke drillings. QBP (their distributor) lists C2 rims drilled 20+.


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## Urb (Jul 19, 2010)

danlarkin said:


> Despite its blowup (errors happen in any manufacturing process I guess?) does he like his 101s? Any comments about the weight or rolling or anything like that?


He loves them. There isn't anything special about the weight but there are not heavy by any means. Compared to other aluminum clinchers they seemed a bit faster but not sure how they measure up to higher end aluminum clinchers though.

I think they are a bit pricey for aluminum clinchers. Almost the cost of aluminum track 404's. Personally I'd gamble on flo's even though they are yet to be proven, but that's just me.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

I just got back from a test ride on Hed Ardennes GPs. All I can say I have nothing really to say about them. I was left feeling like 23mm wide rims are all marketing. I really can't say they did any thing special at all.


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## minicoopal (Jun 28, 2006)

I would pick the one that looks best. And ride dude....just ride. You'll be fine with either.




danlarkin said:


> I like the (claimed) advantages of 23mm wide rims, and I think I've got my choices narrowed down to the Ardennes and 101s.
> 
> Some of my thoughts playing into my indecision:
> 
> ...


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## RAFIUDEEN (Apr 6, 2012)

boyd vitesse


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## Malakas (Jan 13, 2012)

I picked up a set of Ardennes SL's about a month ago. they are light!! I dropped the pressures to 95-98 and they truly absorb the bumps and vibration better than the Aksium Race I had before. I mostly noticed improved cornering feel/grip and the overall decreased weight of the bike. A perceptible but definitely not drastic change in performance


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

pulser955 said:


> I just got back from a test ride on Hed Ardennes GPs. All I can say I have nothing really to say about them. I was left feeling like 23mm wide rims are all marketing. I really can't say they did any thing special at all.


The difference are subtle, particularly if you ride on smooth roads. If you ride on bad roads and lots of twisting turns, the benefits of the wider profile become more pronounced with better handling and comfort.


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

I haven't ridden the Zipps but I wouldn't call their hubs better than HEDs. I've read about Zipp's hubs having failures for a while - they are not rock solid like a Shimano, Campy, Alchemy, Chris King or White Indust hub.

I've been riding the HED Ardennes and Bastognes for quite a while and they've held up well on the rough roads here - no truing at all and they spin smoothly. Plus, I'm not a bantam weight rider (175 lbs) and like to apply torque by pushing the pace on the hills. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another set of HEDs.


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## Zennbikes (Apr 22, 2012)

I rode and raced on zipp Wheels they are great but for me zipp is all about hype, sponsoring and publicity. I cracked 3 zipp carbon rim. If i ever buy a zipp wheel again it wheel have aluminum rim. 

I've been really happy with my Ardennes SL for the past 3 years. No problems at all. The wider rim really help cornering hard plus they are really comfortable. 

Go with hed


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

veloduffer said:


> The difference are subtle, particularly if you ride on smooth roads. If you ride on bad roads and lots of twisting turns, the benefits of the wider profile become more pronounced with better handling and comfort.


Really? I road over chip seal, road torn up waiting for new pavement, cracked and crumbling shoulder, fast down hill turns. So yea its marketing.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

pulser955 said:


> Really? I road over chip seal, road torn up waiting for new pavement, cracked and crumbling shoulder, fast down hill turns. So yea its marketing.


Was the pressure, tire size and brand the same as your previous wheels?


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> Was the pressure, tire size and brand the same as your previous wheels?


Yup even swapped tires from the other wheels.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

pulser955 said:


> Yup even swapped tires from the other wheels.


You can run them at 5-10psi lower for the same tire size, did you try that?


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

And let's keep in mind that pulser955 didn't get the exact wheelset he thought he ordered. (Link to his thread about his experience with Real Cyclist.)

Just as there is honeymoon effect, there can be a bit of "I'm not exactly thrilled with the wheels I got because the description was wrong" effect. 

I haven't ridden HED's so the wider rim may be marketing. It may be real, but I'm not drawing a conclusion based on one review. The mind is a funny thing.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

pulser955 said:


> I just got back from a test ride on Hed Ardennes GPs. All I can say I have nothing really to say about them. I was left feeling like 23mm wide rims are all marketing. I really can't say they did any thing special at all.


There is truth to what you say. The altered sidewall shape due to the wide rim actually makes the ride a little more firm... which is why they advise reducing the pressure. But reducing the pressure increases the rolling resistance also. The one advantage they have is reduced tire squirm and better handling with low pressure. If the rim is nicely shaped you can also get a little better aero performance with 23mm tires.

Wide rims are fine, but the marketing is a bit extreme. 

BTW, I'd pick the BHS C472 (Kinlin) rim as the most aero wide rim... even over the 101.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

rruff said:


> There is truth to what you say. The altered sidewall shape due to the wide rim actually makes the ride a little more firm... which is why they advise reducing the pressure. But reducing the pressure increases the rolling resistance also. The one advantage they have is reduced tire squirm and better handling with low pressure. If the rim is nicely shaped you can also get a little better aero performance with 23mm tires.
> 
> Wide rims are fine, but the marketing is a bit extreme.
> 
> BTW, I'd pick the BHS C472 (Kinlin) rim as the most aero wide rim... even over the 101.


They advise lowering the pressure because the 23mm tire on the 23mm rim actually increases the effective volume of the tire/wheel where the tube sits, making it behave more like a 25mm on a 19mm rim. Using 5-10psi lower should result in similar rolling resistances as a 23mm on a 19mm rim.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

vagabondcyclist said:


> And let's keep in mind that pulser955 didn't get the exact wheelset he thought he ordered. (Link to his thread about his experience with Real Cyclist.)
> 
> Just as there is honeymoon effect, there can be a bit of "I'm not exactly thrilled with the wheels I got because the description was wrong" effect.
> 
> I haven't ridden HED's so the wider rim may be marketing. It may be real, but I'm not drawing a conclusion based on one review. The mind is a funny thing.


I did 2 rides with the wheels and I just am not impressed with them. I'm sending them back. I really wanted to keep them rather then order something new. But they don't quite fit my frame I had problems with them rubbing the frame. I honestly don't feel any improvement in ride quality. I did a few corners at 40+ mph. They just aren't any thing special. If it was a stiffer carbon rim or a liter wheelset then I could see liking them more. If you find a wheelset that meets you needs cool. But I wouldn't buy one just because it has a wide rim.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

pulser955 said:


> I did 2 rides with the wheels and I just am not impressed with them. I'm sending them back. I really wanted to keep them rather then order something new. But they don't quite fit my frame I had problems with them rubbing the frame. I honestly don't feel any improvement in ride quality. I did a few corners at 40+ mph. They just aren't any thing special. If it was a stiffer carbon rim or a liter wheelset then I could see liking them more. If you find a wheelset that meets you needs cool. But I wouldn't buy one just because it has a wide rim.


How were they rubbing the frame? How did you take 40mph turns with them rubbing the frame?


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> How were they rubbing the frame? How did you take 40mph turns with them rubbing the frame?


The chain stay BB area on my bike is vary tight around the wheel. I can't clear 25s with normal rims. I'm lucky I have little metal plates that so when the tire rubs it wont hit the carbon. The wider rims make the 23s puff out kind of like a 25. The rim ends up being vary close to the stay and when the wheel flexes in hard corner the tire actually rubs on the plate on the stay. My normal wheels would do the same thing from time to time. But I would have to push the bike in the 50s around mountain switch backs or in crit corners for that to happen.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

pulser955 said:


> I did 2 rides with the wheels and I just am not impressed with them. I'm sending them back. I really wanted to keep them rather then order something new. But they don't quite fit my frame I had problems with them rubbing the frame. I honestly don't feel any improvement in ride quality. I did a few corners at 40+ mph. They just aren't any thing special. If it was a stiffer carbon rim or a liter wheelset then I could see liking them more. If you find a wheelset that meets you needs cool. But I wouldn't buy one just because it has a wide rim.


I know you were disappointed from the start about the wheels not being as advertised. There's quite a bit of research out there about the cognitive processes involved in perception, and well, expectations, preconceived notions, etc. play a big role, even when dealing with "objective" scientific research. Yeah, the rubbing on your frame is objective, something that some rims and frames have issues with--see Zipp and Specialized. The rest is pretty subjective and influenced by a bunch of factors--too much hype, disappointed expectations, etc. 

I ride Mavic Open Pro rims laced to some old Ultegra 600 hubs, so I'm not defending HED because I have a pair. I just hate to see what might be a good product get a bad rap because the retailer disappointed you.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

vagabondcyclist said:


> I know you were disappointed from the start about the wheels not being as advertised. There's quite a bit of research out there about the cognitive processes involved in perception, and well, expectations, preconceived notions, etc. play a big role, even when dealing with "objective" scientific research. Yeah, the rubbing on your frame is objective, something that some rims and frames have issues with--see Zipp and Specialized. The rest is pretty subjective and influenced by a bunch of factors--too much hype, disappointed expectations, etc.
> 
> I ride Mavic Open Pro rims laced to some old Ultegra 600 hubs, so I'm not defending HED because I have a pair. I just hate to see what might be a good product get a bad rap because the retailer disappointed you.



Yes I was disappointed in the whole process around the wheels. But a big part of why I got them was the 23mm rims. I was going to build a set of wheels with Hed C2 rims before I found this deal. But as someone that has the ability to push a bike to the edge of traction and handling in stupid fast corners I feel like I can figure out of something works or not. I really wanted to like them. I wanted to keep them. But it just didn't do any thing better then the wheels I have now. If I wanted to run 25s at lower pressure and I didn't race I would probably have liked them. I guess it just comes down to the fact that I'm just too picky.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

redlude97 said:


> They advise lowering the pressure because the 23mm tire on the 23mm rim actually increases the effective volume of the tire/wheel where the tube sits, making it behave more like a 25mm on a 19mm rim. Using 5-10psi lower should result in similar rolling resistances as a 23mm on a 19mm rim.


In the tests I've seen there was no improvement in Crr with pressure the same. The change in sidewall shape alters the ride in ways that definitely do *not* resemble a 25mm tire on a 19mm rim.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

I don't think wide rims should be used on your bike if you have so little clearance. You are just asking for trouble. You will have this same issue if you go with a Zipp rim. In fact, most of the major manufacturers are moving to this wide rim. Maybe stock up on the narrow 19mm wheels now while you can.

A custom Kinlin build might be a good way to go if you like aluminum. Or stick with one of the cheaper carbon vendors like Williams or Boyd, who put out narrow carbon wheels.


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## danlarkin (Jun 28, 2012)

OP here... after (too) much consideration I put in an order at the LBS today for Hed C2 rims + Chris King R45s w/ cx-rays.

Thank you all for your insight


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## Eyorerox (Feb 19, 2008)

so have I, probably DT swiss spokes


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## cxboy (May 23, 2012)

does mavic make a rim in the 22-23mm range ??


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

The only wide rim Mavic makes is the tubular CXR 80. But it's a new wheel, so maybe they will slowly move their other wheels in that direction.


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