# Overall feedback on the Record 11?



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I was hoping to order Record 10 components on the race bike I'm building up for next season, but I think I'm a little too late on that one. I'm planning on compact gearing and going with Zero Gravity brakes. I'll probably be using my Mavic CCUs, too. 

How did the '09 Record 11s perform? I enjoyed the Record 10s on my TT bike, but that's not quite an option any more.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*search...*

There are lots of posts on this topic. Look at the next few pages down. I've got two bikes with Record 11. It's great stuff. No regrets on making the change.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

C-40 said:


> There are lots of posts on this topic. Look at the next few pages down. I've got two bikes with Record 11. It's great stuff. No regrets on making the change.


Yeah, I was being lazy. I figured if someone loved them or hated them, I'd get something simple, quick, and to the point.  In retrospect, perhaps I should have ordered the Record 11 last year for my TT bike. 

I was a little miffed when I found out I couldn't order Record 10, but not quite ticked off enough to go SRAM.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*no 11 speed bar ends...*

The last time I looked there were no 11 speed bar end shifters available. Seems like an easy part to make, but it's been overlooked.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

C-40 said:


> The last time I looked there were no 11 speed bar end shifters available. Seems like an easy part to make, but it's been overlooked.


Even though I still wanted compatible 10sp cassettes, this basically made me stay away from the 11 last year. If Campy knows what's good for them, they should probably address this since 10sp is no longer available as an option. Fortunately for me, my TT bike is set and I see no reason to change, but perhaps they shouldn't give Shimano or SRAM more business.


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## ericjacobsen3 (Apr 27, 2007)

*Feedback on Chorus 11s*

OK, I am going to get bashed on this. Be polite -remember the snob criticisms which are probably half true. Note I am also a former mtb engineer & 25 year raer, but I am still happy to hear polite solutions to get better satisfaction (already trolled all the posts on this board).

First, I used '96 Record 8-speed very happily for 12 years - it was perfect until shifter finally wore out (and I got addicted to 10 cogs).
'05 Veloce shifters (NOS in '07) worked good for a year before lagging on shifting. '09 Veloce shifters w/ strong spring der worked good for a year before lagging on shifting w/o yet working well. Otherwise I liked them even with the weak early click. I have cheapo Xenon 9 speed levers that shift welll. 

A month ago I went for an 11-speed chorus group w/ record brakes so hear is my review.

-Front Der - Occasionally wants to slip a notch, even when outermost notch is not near the limit screw. Happened 3 times in my century today. Spring tension to high for click detents? -I don't know. Also seems notches a bit far apart for fine tuning in big ring which used to work great for 8 and 10 speed. Cable is properly pinched in the intended groove.

-Rear Shifting - Marginal, especially 3rd largest moving to second largest cog doesn't always go, even when shifting to smaller cogs set to hesitate momentarily (notch set close to larger cog). Campy has more friction in Ultrashift levers than older levers -you would think they could have preserved the low friction that had allowed super weak springs on Centaur & Veloce last couple years. Only thing pure campy I have not done is route cables in back of bar -but should not have to do this as I have no kinks outside the lever. Click is nice and firm on Chorus-SR, but was weak on early Veloce/centaur.

Chain/ Cassette - noisier than 10-speed Record but quieter than Red powerdome cassette. Disappointing in my book. You also need to wonder if the cogs somehow hitting teeth to make the noise can cause wear or extra friction that would more than negate any ceramic bearing efficiency.

Shift/ brake levers - Very good ergonomics and better braking power than last style. SRAM may be equal but from a quick feel, new and old Dura Ace is not as good.

Crank - Assuming I never have the rare bearing slop problem, this is a work of art & science w/ great ankle clearance & low q factor (pedals close together side-to-side) for external bearing design. Even Chorus is lighter than Red and many BB30 cranks, and from England it is even cheaper. Record 30g lighter even.

BB - I have a Trek Madone which dose not use the Campy BB cups. I have very much seal friction on Chorus -crank spins maybe 2 turns. Perhaps greasing the Trek bonded seals would help. Won't blame this one on Campy.

Record Brakes - good and 120g lighter than my '96 Record. I am happy to spring for the $70 upgrade from Chorus as Chorus now does not have bearings. Good at not grabbing when dry. Power a bit disappointing when wet. I do not have experience w/ modern Dura Ace brakes which are the benchmark but overall I am happy.

Aesthetics: beautiful and even bad-ass at the same time -even with Chorus. Nicely finished.

Overall the main issue is marginal shifting that can only get unacceptable after a year and a few rides in the rain. I don't care really about the extra cog. Narrow spacing is probably much of the culprit for noise and slow shifting (along w/ levers friction).

Bottom line: I wish they kept quiet good shifting 10-speed and more consistent shifting and gave us everything else in the newer style & ergonomics.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*uneducated review....*

My experience is nothing like yours. The shifting is great, but I route the cables behind the bars. 

The cog to chain clearance is the larger than before with a .35mm spacing decrease and a .4mm narrower chain. It's also the same clearance and Shimano/SRAM so you can't blame the narrow chain or spacing for shifting problems.

The ergonomics is greatly improved. I haven't read a single complaint. Nearly all users find the new brake hood and lever shape to be better.

Mentioning the cog/chain noise along with the derailleur pulley bearing makes no sense.

Most noise from the chain can be traced to the use of thin or dry lubes. The cogs can certainly not be blamed for noise. They are little different than 10 speed and allegedly mush stiffer with the new carrier design.


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## ericjacobsen3 (Apr 27, 2007)

I wouldn't call your review or mine uneducated - not sure who that is directed at but will give you the benefit of the doubt.

-My 8, 9 and 10 speed shifted great out of the box and my 11 does not. Simply having clicks closer together can impact shifting performance and are spacing-related because the throw distance relative to the cog center is less w/ 11sp. I would love to be wrong in faulting spacing and have good shifting if anyone give me some quick fix idea other than back bar cabling to prove 11sp can work better than anything else.

-Ergonomics is now very good -best in class so we agree on that (true Sram doesn't have the hook position).

-Fact is out of the box with lube campy themselves put on the chain it is noisy and Campy 10-sp was not (at least w/ SRAM chains) and Shimano 8 & 9 are never noisy with anyone's chain I've tried.

-Who mentioned a derailleur pulley (other than Campy saying they are supposed to be, er... quiet)?

-I still suspect the cogs (not adjacent cogs) and/or narrowness of the inside of the chain for noise. The 11sp cogs seem to be much like saw teeth -leaning to use at least every bit of cog width at the tip and perhaps a bit more, instead of a centered taper to the point -seems intended to help shifting but might just make up for some of the challenge of the narrow spacing.

I don't pretend to have figured everything out, just that Campy is putting customers though more hassle than they should by not having a more bulletproof system, even if it meant sticking w/ 10sp.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

great! i just got my centaur 10 ultras replaced by chorus 11 due to the bad reviews - now i get this! haha

i'm soon to build it up and i will give my impression. Much happier with the Chorus gear anyway - esp since the shifters only ended up costing me $50 more than centaur.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

ericjacobsen3 said:


> My 8, 9 and 10 speed shifted great out of the box and my 11 does not. Simply having clicks closer together can impact shifting performance and are spacing-related because the throw distance relative to the cog center is less w/ 11sp.


Simply to add my experience, not disputing yours, mind you: I have zero problems with shifting on my SR group, neither front nor rear. I would say shifting is as close to perfect as it can get. I have my cables routed on the inside of the bar, by the way.If you have problems, then it's certainly not because of fundamental issues with 11-speed.



ericjacobsen3 said:


> Fact is out of the box with lube campy themselves put on the chain it is noisy and Campy 10-sp was not (at least w/ SRAM chains) and Shimano 8 & 9 are never noisy with anyone's chain I've tried.


In my experience, the Campy 11-speed cassettes do indeed tend to be noisy when new, but they will typically quiet down after a few hundred miles. More importantly, with a thicker lube (I use Chain-L now), you can eliminate the noise entirely.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

*So in your opinion...*



wankski said:


> great! i just got my centaur 10 ultras replaced by chorus 11 due to the bad reviews - now i get this! haha
> 
> i'm soon to build it up and i will give my impression. Much happier with the Chorus gear anyway - esp since the shifters only ended up costing me $50 more than centaur.



Is the change from 09 Centaur Ultra Shift 10speed to 09 Chorus Ultra Shift 11speed really that much of a _quantum leap???_ I'm almost at the end of my rope w/ the mediocre shifting on my 09 Centuar levers w/ the [slightly] older 10 speed stuff. Keep me posted (even drop me a PM if you'd like), I'm _highly_ interested....


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

jpdigital said:


> Is the change from 09 Centaur Ultra Shift 10speed to 09 Chorus Ultra Shift 11speed really that much of a _quantum leap???_ I'm almost at the end of my rope w/ the mediocre shifting on my 09 Centuar levers w/ the [slightly] older 10 speed stuff. Keep me posted (even drop me a PM if you'd like), I'm _highly_ interested....


Sure will mate. I will post my views here within a week or two including install and ride report. Its not just you wondering.

I actually owe you one, you were a big part in my decision to sell my centaur 10 BNIB and i more than recovered my money on that one. So i didn't install centaur ultra shift so i can't say how good or bad that was. That said, chorus 11 has a much more satisfying click on the right finger lever, so i'm already happy with that: when i got the centaur, i was like "WTF mate?" It makes no sense to have that soft and all the other levers quite stiff. did not like.

C40 is the guru here, and I trust his judgement that there's nothing wrong with either, but its not just one or two complaining about centaur 10 (and now even 11)... Up until last summer i was a paid mech, - a bit of a campy 9 and 10 specialist - i also have a bit of an engineering background. So i figure my view and opinion should help others in making a similar decision. My frame of reference is directly referable to chorus 10 and centaur other parts on my old bike (circa 2005) still going strong.

I have done background reading into the 11sp manuals and install suggestions here on RBR tho as well.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*facts...*

The solution to your shifting problem most likely is as simple as changing the cable routing to the back of the bars. The new ultrashift levers are sensitive to excessive cable friction, so cable housings with minimal friction are a must. That is a fact. I've got Shimano housing on one bike and it seems to work as well as Campy's, but Jagwire did not. If you try rerouting, do not remove and reinstall the same shift cable. I tried this recently and had a huge friction problem. All you need is a new Campy shift cable and 3 feet of Shimano 4mm housing. Use the extra foot to replace the housing loop at the RD.

I have 11 speed on three bikes and they all shift as well or better than 10 speed, so I know that shifting problems are not normal. The vast majority of reviewers find the shifting improved. 

The chain is not significantly narrower. The difference is so small that if you had bothered to measure a number of new 10 speed links and compared them to 11 speed, you would find the inside width to be the same on some links, since the tolerances seem to overlap. A brand new chain with the factory lube on it will operate with less noise after only a couple hundred miles of use. I've tried a very thin lube and did find that it increased chain noise, so I would avoid thin or dry lubes if you find the noise annoying.

The cogs are .15mm thinner, at 1.6mm and that is the same thickness as Shimano/SRAM. With the thinner cogs there is actually MORE chain clearance, not less. With the chain centered on a cog, there is the same clearance on either side as Shimano 10.

To quote your review: "Chain/ Cassette - noisier than 10-speed Record but quieter than Red powerdome cassette. Disappointing in my book. You also need to wonder if the cogs somehow hitting teeth to make the noise can cause wear or extra friction that would more than negate any ceramic bearing efficiency." 

Statements like the above pure conjecture. The change to ceramic bushings will improve longevity, but the decrease is friction would be so small it could never be measured. The new cassette design is stiffer, but has no changes that would make it noisier. The SRAM Red cassette is noisy because it's hollow and only contacts the cassette body at both ends. This is an apples and oranges comparison. Also, the best person to evaluate cassette noise is another rider right behind you, not the rider of the bike. I've ridden behind a couple of bikes with Red and couldn't believe all the noise from both the shifters and the cassette. On every shift it was clack, clunk. The clack was the shifter and the clunk was from the abrupt shift. It's annoying but not necessarily power robbing. You can make any drivetrain clunk on the shifts to smaller cogs just by leaving the shift cable tension looser than it should be.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Thanks, I'll be sure to tell my shop about routing the cables.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*



jpdigital said:


> Is the change from 09 Centaur Ultra Shift 10speed to 09 Chorus Ultra Shift 11speed really that much of a _quantum leap???_ I'm almost at the end of my rope w/ the mediocre shifting on my 09 Centuar levers w/ the [slightly] older 10 speed stuff. Keep me posted (even drop me a PM if you'd like), I'm _highly_ interested....


I recently did a cheap conversion to 11 speed on my bike that has 2009 Centaur shifters and an older Chorus 10 medium cage RD (pre-carbon). I converted the shifters with slavaged parts, plus a new chain and cassette. It really does shift better, I have to admit. It almost seems to shift better than one of my bikes that's all 11 speed. A brand new Campy shift cable with Shimano housing probably helps.

I did some google searching for just the index disc and front rachet needed, but most places that list them have only one of the parts or none in stock. Campy quit offering these parts separately, but they were both cheap. Now you have to buy a major assembly to make the conversion and price is about $100.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Since they sell replacement 10 parts, do you think it would be price prohibitive to get a complete 10 component set? I think I was quoted ~$1900-ish for Record 11 without brakes.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*???*

It makes no sense to buy into 10 speed parts that are no longer made, except as repair parts. Very soon, there will be no Record or Chorus 10 cassettes sold, for example. Only Centaur and Veloce cassettes will be made as new items. The beauty of the new shifters is they are expected to rarely need repair or servicing since there are no G-springs to wear out. The new shifters are also a lot easier to repair if need.

FWIW, A record 11 group with brakes is only about $1500 at Ribble. Campy has a major pricing problem here in the USA. They have jacked prices up by 50-75% and insisted that sellers charge MSRP. In Europe the prices went up by 2-3%.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2009)

I suspect cable issues as well, my Chorus 11 shifts better than any of my previous groups, and I do think the Chorus levers have a better feel than the updated Centaur ones, they are ok but the Chorus levers are better.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

C-40 said:


> It makes no sense to buy into 10 speed parts that are no longer made, except as repair parts. Very soon, there will be no Record or Chorus 10 cassettes sold, for example. Only Centaur and Veloce cassettes will be made as new items. The beauty of the new shifters is they are expected to rarely need repair or servicing since there are no G-springs to wear out. The new shifters are also a lot easier to repair if need.
> 
> FWIW, A record 11 group with brakes is only about $1500 at Ribble. Campy has a major pricing problem here in the USA. They have jacked prices up by 50-75% and insisted that sellers charge MSRP. In Europe the prices went up by 2-3%.


Mostly to keep compatibility between my bikes. In an ideal world, I'd take the 3rd cassette and put it on a solid rear disc wheel.


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## volubilis (Jan 2, 2009)

My experience is exactly the same as Pirx'.

v.


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## ericjacobsen3 (Apr 27, 2007)

Pirx and Volubilis, and C40,

I am glad everything is working well for you. I would love to find I have done something silly I have done.

I assume most have the same expectations: that one should be able to click when not pedaling and once pedaling still have the shift go through without hesitation. A good system should do this even if not the typical situation. Strange thing is that my issue is isolated to the 4th to 3rd largest cogs only which you would not think would be purely a cable friction issue. 3rd to 2nd largest and others are fine. About half the time from 4th to 3rd largest the shift goes immediately and the other half I can pedal 5 revolutions w/ no shift. It almost is as if the notch has a flat valley where the click can seat differently.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Well, like I said, I am really not here to argue your experience, nor will I be able to diagnose your problem over the internet. For all I know, you may have an installation issue, or you could have a bum shifter or derailleur (a warranty issue). The only way to find out, if you cannot troubleshoot the issue yourself, is to take the bike to a knowledgeable mechanic. All I can tell you for sure is that a defect-free, properly installed Campy group will not behave in the way you describe.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

spade2you said:


> Mostly to keep compatibility between my bikes. In an ideal world, I'd take the 3rd cassette and put it on a solid rear disc wheel.


Yep, compatibility issues have made me reluctant to put the 11 speed kit on a new bike while I have 10 speed gear on a TT bike and two other road bikes. It's nice to pick whichever wheel I want and be able to put it on any bike without swapping cassettes. But I guess I've gone through it before and survived.


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## smokva (Jul 21, 2004)

Since everyone is giving it's impressions about 11 speed parts here is list and review about my mix of different 11 speed parts:


Record Ultra-Torque Standard 53-39 175 mm cranks

They look absolutely great. Chainrings are well designed and there is no hesitation in front shifting. Record bearings are very smooth which I clean, inspect and regrease every 3000 km. I was sceptic about hirth joint but it works flawlessly.


Super Record BB ITA cups

I wanted black cups so got SR ones and put inner seals from other cups in. Since BB on my frame has Italian threads and is not perfectly faced it is prone to a right cup unscrewing problem. I put some Loctite 243 on and will think about refacing later. It never unscrewed after I gave it a little Loctite.


Chorus chain

Chain is of highest quality as all Campagnolo chains are, but it needs special 110 EUR Campagnolo tool to connect it and I think it is major PITA. Also chain is much harder than chains from other manufacturers which means dry and thin lubes will make it work loud. As others reported best lube is mix of white (mineral) spirit and motor oil. I got best results with a mix of 40% 15W-40 motor oil and 60% white spirit. In short, this chain always must be well lubed and clean or it will be annoying loud.
I really think campagnolo should come out with some kind of connector link, those connecting pins should be a matter of past by now. I have a filling they are keeping pins only for bigger profit...you need their expensive tool and will probably put new chain every time you disconnect it. I just don't buy it.


Chorus 12-27 sprockets

Haven't noticed anything wrong with them, so they must be good. I'm one of those that had all titanium 9 sp Record cassette and I can tell you it didn't last. No more titanium sprockets on my bike, so Chorus was logical choice.


Record Ultra-Shift Ergopower controls

Most comfortable controls I have ever tried. This shape is just perfect. Also I like the feel of brake levers, thumb shift levers and left finger shift lever, but right finger shift lever feels too soft. I would like it to be slightly harder with more pronounced clicks.
For some reason it took ages for cables to settle down in casings, I had to trim derailleurs almost on every ride for long time. Now they are settled and everything works fine.


Super Record braze on FD

I'm not sure how to set it up correctly. I have a feeling like it is built for triple chainrings because there is just too much travel in it, like cable pulls too much. I can set it up with a cable so loose that first two clicks even don't engage or that last click throws the chain off the large ring. In the end I put high limiter in a position that last click can't even engage which gives me enough range for all gears and keeps me safe of throwing the chain off.
Also I'm bit worried about carbon cage on SR FD, but so far no problems.



Record RD

Looks and works great. It is too early to see how will the spring last, but I have a feeling it is strong enough.


Super Record brake calipers

Gives me enough stopping power and I like it's modulation. Also weaker rear brake works good in practice as it is really hard to lock rear wheel. Most of the braking power comes from the front brake anyway which is strong enough.


Record Hiddenset TTC headset

So far so good. Great looking headset. Would put it again.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*FD setup...*

Most likely, you have the shift cable routed incorrectly. It's a wonder the FD works at all with the wrong routing. The FD is has not made for a triple - that requires a wider cage with a different shape. Here's a thread on the subject. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=171968

Shame on you for not facing the BB shell. I hope you at least measured the BB shell width. If not, get the BB faced and measured for proper width after the facing (69.2-70.8mm). If needed, place a shim under the left cup to get the width into tolerance. Neglecting proper installation is the main cause of most of the UT crank complaints.

I don't get all the whining about the chain tool. It takes about 1 minute more time to flare the right end of the pin and it should ensure a much better hold. Shimano tried and failed to produce a connecting link, even though others have been making them for years. I suspect that product liability is a concern and the pins are thought to be safer. There are a few 10 speed master links that will work with the 11 speed chain. That's been covered many times on this forum.


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## smokva (Jul 21, 2004)

C-40 said:


> Most likely, you have the shift cable routed incorrectly. It's a wonder the FD works at all with the wrong routing. The FD is has not made for a triple - that requires a wider cage with a different shape. Here's a thread on the subject.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=171968


Nope, as you can see from the attached image my routing is identical to yours. But what is strange is that I have 5 clicks, giving total of 6 positions. I just checked and every of five click does move a cable, so it really is 6 positions. You reported only 4 clicks and 5 positions. So our parts differ in some way or you limited your FD to only 4 clicks with High/Low screws.



> Shame on you for not facing the BB shell. I hope you at least measured the BB shell width. If not, get the BB faced and measured for proper width after the facing (69.2-70.8mm). If needed, place a shim under the left cup to get the width into tolerance. Neglecting proper installation is the main cause of most of the UT crank complaints.


Yeah, I know. But there isn't any LBS where I live that can face it and buying a tool for that wasn't a option. And I did measure it and it was somewhere in 70.0-70.1 range.



> I don't get all the whining about the chain tool. It takes about 1 minute more time to flare the right end of the pin and it should ensure a much better hold. Shimano tried and failed to produce a connecting link, even though others have been making them for years. I suspect that product liability is a concern and the pins are thought to be safer. There are a few 10 speed master links that will work with the 11 speed chain. That's been covered many times on this forum.


Whining is about the price of their 11 sp chain tool and the fact that it cant be used for anthing else but 11 speed chain.
To install my parts I hat to get these more or less special tools:

UT-CN300 11 speed chain tool - 115 EUR
UT-BB130 Ultra-Torque Bottom Bracket Cup Tool - 20 EUR
UT-BB110 Ultra-Torque Allen Key Extension - 10 EUR
Extra long T25 torx screwdriver - 7 EUR

So, yes I was pissed that the price payed for tools was over 10% of what groupset was, and I didn't buy cheap parts. That's what is all that whining about.
And I will not use connectors that are not designed for 11 speed. Safety is on the first place.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*more...*

Since your FD cable is properly attached, be sure that the cable tension is not too low and/or the limit screws are set correctly. If the cable tension is too low, the cable will move on the first click, but the FD cage will either not move at all or very little. If the limit screws are set to create a little more chain clearance than necessary, that might require a fifth click - using up a little travel at both extremes. I assume that the left finger lever can execute 5 clicks with one sweep? I've never tried that since my FDs don't need 5 clicks. The old ergos could sweep five clicks, but that was only needed when shifting from the little ring of a triple to the middle ring. The old ergos also had 12 clicks instead of 6, but no more than 7 were ever needed for a triple FD.

As a mechanical engineer, I don't think there is anything unsafe about using the best fitting 10 speed links with an 11 speed chain. I used the wipperman 10S1 for about 1500 miles this year and a few hundred with a KMC missing link. A dedicated 11 speed link just needs about .1mm less side clearance for a better fit.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2009)

smokva said:


> To install my parts I hat to get these more or less special tools:
> 
> UT-CN300 11 speed chain tool - 115 EUR
> UT-BB130 Ultra-Torque Bottom Bracket Cup Tool - 20 EUR
> ...


But of those tools 3 of the 4 aren't Campy specific (or for that matter even bicycle specific for 2 of them) and a more affordable alternative to the fourth was posted by C-40.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*yes...*



kytyree said:


> But of those tools 3 of the 4 aren't Campy specific (or for that matter even bicycle specific for 2 of them) and a more affordable alternative to the fourth was posted by C-40.



I got the torx screwdriver and it also works to tighten the brake pads.

I used a standard 10mm hex bit for my 1/2 drive torque wrench to tighten the UT fixing bolt. No special tool needed.

The BB cup tool is needed for any Shimano or Campy outboard bearing crank.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

ericjacobsen3 said:


> I wouldn't call your review or mine uneducated - not sure who that is directed at but will give you the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> -My 8, 9 and 10 speed shifted great out of the box and my 11 does not. Simply having clicks closer together can impact shifting performance and are spacing-related because the throw distance relative to the cog center is less w/ 11sp. I would love to be wrong in faulting spacing and have good shifting if anyone give me some quick fix idea other than back bar cabling to prove 11sp can work better than anything else.
> 
> ...


Your experience is completely different than mine. I find my record 11 shifting flawless--this with a couple thousands miles on the same cables (routed in front of the bars). There is no chain noise. I'd suggest that you have some other kinds of set-up problems that are not related to Campy.

I will agree that their instructions. are indecipherable. The only other negative for me are the brake calipers. Comeing from MTB discs to dura ace was a major step back into the 80's. The change to record 11 was perfect as far as the levers were concerned but overall the system was even less powerful than dura ace. After much screwing around with pads, I switched back to dura ace calipers and found great improvement--perhaps as good as any braking from the major companies. Eventually went to EEbrakes and now have the kind of modulation and power that I would dare say is unmatched on other road bikes--wet or dry. Most who ride my bike are amazed that they can have that kind of power and the serious modulation required to deal with it predictably.

My previous experience was with Dura Ace and I'll not be going back until they fix their lever pivot point (raise it up) and go to 11 speed.


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## smokva (Jul 21, 2004)

C-40 said:


> Since your FD cable is properly attached, be sure that the cable tension is not too low and/or the limit screws are set correctly. If the cable tension is too low, the cable will move on the first click, but the FD cage will either not move at all or very little. If the limit screws are set to create a little more chain clearance than necessary, that might require a fifth click - using up a little travel at both extremes. I assume that the left finger lever can execute 5 clicks with one sweep? I've never tried that since my FDs don't need 5 clicks. The old ergos could sweep five clicks, but that was only needed when shifting from the little ring of a triple to the middle ring. The old ergos also had 12 clicks instead of 6, but no more than 7 were ever needed for a triple FD.


Finger lever can execute only 4 clicks with one sweep, for fifth I have to release it and sweep again. And like I said in one of posts above I could set it up with the cable tension too low so that 1st and 2nd click do not move the FD or with the cable tensioned to move FD slightly in the first click in which case 4th click is more than enough for 53-12, and 5th one would throw the chain off. I really think there is a space for one more cog 
I tried both cable tensions and liked lower tension more because with more tension I had to high limit it not to engage 5th click which I wasn't able to do. High screw let me limit it to the position where 5th click has just engaged and move FD slightley...it would make that 5th click, but if I hit hole or some obstacle on the road it would downshif one click by itself. I didn't like that so let it move further on the 5th click, and if I wanted not to drop chain I had to make cable loose on the first clicks.



> As a mechanical engineer, I don't think there is anything unsafe about using the best fitting 10 speed links with an 11 speed chain. I used the wipperman 10S1 for about 1500 miles this year and a few hundred with a KMC missing link. A dedicated 11 speed link just needs about .1mm less side clearance for a better fit.


When I was building my bike there wasn't enough evidence that those links were working and I just didn't have time/will to experiment.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*something wrong...*

I still suspect the wrong combination of cable tension and limit screw position. I'd start over from scratch, setting the little ring limit screw with the cable detached and go from there. Increase the tension until the fourth click moves the FD far enough. I'd loosen the high limit screw to start with so you know that it's not limiting the travel. Once you get enough travel, turn the screw in until it make contact and you should be done. I've not read a single report of anyone else with this problem. I've got two bikes that are working properly with the 2009 FD and another with a 2008 QS FD that also requires only 4 clicks to function. The 2008 model seems to work OK with the cable routed either way, but it has a longer lever arm than the new FDs.


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## ericjacobsen3 (Apr 27, 2007)

Smokva, I hear ya on the chain tool cost, but the Park CT-11 Campy specific chain tool is $45 -maybe that was not out when you invested. I am not sure how the smoosh compares with the Campy tool; I got more of a conical chamfer inside the peening hole from the conical Park pin and I cranked pretty hard.

Given I also have too much throw for any fine tuning click in the big ring, I was scared for a second seeing the picture that I would have to admit C40's superior educatedness. However, I just checked and my cable is routed properly too.

I was slipping a notch when in the big ring (so that two clicks on the big ring were unused until I reclicked). Might have been my evil twin hitting the lever but I didn't see him do it. Anyway, I am only able to use 3 of 5 clicks and am wondering if I should continue leave the unused click on the small ring. If the fder click notches in the lever were unevenly spaced like the old 8 and 9 speed rear notches, shifting all the clicks, we might get finer trimming. 

So, I tested my genius theory of leaving both of the hypothesized wide clicks at the big end unused and... it didn't give me any closer spaced trimming clicks on the big ring. If I use the outer limit screw to narrow the last click I just become more likely to slip.

In the end, Campy seems to have made the fder more or less able to let the chain cover the 10 of 11 smallest cogs without trim when in the big ring with no rubbing if you have a stiff frame. Of course you shouldn't use the big-big. Given all the funky cage angles on the rub plate in particular, it is easy to fail to see clearance around the chain.

So, based on how my parts are willing to work, there appears to be only one click position for the big ring, two clicks for the small (lower limit screw can narrow if needed) and the extra two clicks are there in case you have a triple. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

jpdigital said:


> Is the change from 09 Centaur Ultra Shift 10speed to 09 Chorus Ultra Shift 11speed really that much of a _quantum leap???_ I'm almost at the end of my rope w/ the mediocre shifting on my 09 Centuar levers w/ the [slightly] older 10 speed stuff. Keep me posted (even drop me a PM if you'd like), I'm _highly_ interested....


I posted a new thread with my review here:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2432895#post2432895
In short, i'm pretty damn happy with the upgrade over chorus 10. 


ericjacobsen3 said:


> -Front Der - Occasionally wants to slip a notch, even when outermost notch is not near the limit screw. Happened 3 times in my century today. Spring tension to high for click detents? -I don't know. Also seems notches a bit far apart for fine tuning in big ring which used to work great for 8 and 10 speed. Cable is properly pinched in the intended groove.
> 
> -Rear Shifting - Marginal, especially 3rd largest moving to second largest cog doesn't always go, even when shifting to smaller cogs set to hesitate momentarily (notch set close to larger cog). Campy has more friction in Ultrashift levers than older levers -you would think they could have preserved the low friction that had allowed super weak springs on Centaur & Veloce last couple years.


Certainly not my experience... see my video review!


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

ericjacobsen3 said:


> I assume most have the same expectations: that one should be able to click when not pedaling and once pedaling still have the shift go through without hesitation. A good system should do this even if not the typical situation. Strange thing is that my issue is isolated to the 4th to 3rd largest cogs only which you would not think would be purely a cable friction issue. 3rd to 2nd largest and others are fine. About half the time from 4th to 3rd largest the shift goes immediately and the other half I can pedal 5 revolutions w/ no shift. It almost is as if the notch has a flat valley where the click can seat differently.


Yer ... not really... i never thought 'cold shifting' is important - but i demonstrate that it does in fact work on both ends of the cassette in my video:


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

When 9 out 10 posters have no problem, then its points out that you don't know how to install and adjust the RD.

The only point you made that is accurate is that you might get the FD set such that no trim click is needed. 

There are six clicks in total and only four are needed to cover the full range of travel necessary for a double FD. If you measure the cables pulls, you will find them to be quite uniform. I measured a total cable pull of .650 inch and all appeared to be the same.

Set the low limit with the cable detached, with the smallest possible clearance, so the chain does not rub in the little ring and largest cog. Shift the thumb button repeatedly until there are no clicks left, attach the cable properly, then increase the tension gradually. You should reach a point where 4 clicks of the finger lever will move the FD cage to the big ring position, with the high limit screw backed all the way out and doing nothing. This position will cause no chain rub in the big ring and smallest cog. From that position, one click of the thumb button will trim the FD to the left, if needed, to prevent chain rub in one the largest cogs. A second click will drop the chain onto the little ring and the others just move the cage further to the left so it will not rub in the littlering and largest cog.

Of course, the cage height must also be correct, with 1-2mm of clearance above the big ring and the right side of the cage must be parallel to the big ring.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

C-40 said:


> ... This position will cause no chain rub in the big ring and smallest cog. From that position, one click of the thumb button will trim the FD to the *right*, if needed, to prevent chain rub in one the largest cogs. ...


Do you mean "*left*" ?


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

*"better feel"??*



kytyree said:


> I suspect cable issues as well, my Chorus 11 shifts better than any of my previous groups, and I do think the Chorus levers have a better feel than the updated Centaur ones, they are ok but the Chorus levers are better.


When you say "better feel", is that in regard to how it feels shifting, or how the materials feel in the hands (i.e. the alloy of Centaur vs. the carbon if Chorus)?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*yes...*



tom_h said:


> Do you mean "*left*" ?


I corrected another error in the last line, too. It should have said little ring and largest cog.

I should also add that an '08 FD seems to work fine and is extremely easy to set up with it's wider cage. It seems to require the same 4 clicks no matter which way the cable is attached, unlike the '09 FD. It's a real no-brainer to get working.


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## ericjacobsen3 (Apr 27, 2007)

C40, you clearly are convinced I am an idiot for you to have just detailed a perfect front derailleur install to someone who you know has installed and used Campy indexing for 14 years (and 40,000 miles I might add). I don't want to continue wasting your time.

Thank you for mentioning the Quickshift fder cable mistake some have made. That is one I could have made but didn't. I think you helped a few others.

Just assume my blasphemy on the rear shifting is a rarity caused by some one-off burr in the indexing notch of my lever, ignore my past and future posts, and try not to be too quick to insult people. There are other explanations for problems other than someone not knowing what they are doing.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

ericjacobsen3 said:


> Just assume my blasphemy on the rear shifting is a rarity caused by some one-off burr in the indexing notch of my lever, ignore my past and future posts, and try not to be too quick to insult people. There are other explanations for problems other than someone not knowing what they are doing.


dude, did you see my video on the rear shifting? i did the dead shift to address your concern. Is this how yours shifts? I'm personally interested to know what's going on...


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*Ok...*

Take the time to check the cable pulls then. I do it with the help of masking tape and a machinist's scale with .010 inch graduations. With the cable detached from the FD, I apply tension by hand on the cable and go through all six clicks of the finger lever to fully retract the cable. I wrap a piece of masking tape around the cable, either right against the frame mounted cable stop or close to it. I then go through all six thumb button clicks, pulling on the cable by hand. I measure both the total pull and note the cabled released on each click. Repeat several times to be sure you get the same result each time. See if your shifter releases 6 uniform amounts totaling .650 inch or close to it. I did notice that the cable wanted to pull very slightly beyond the 6th click of the finger lever, but this is not an amount of pull that I counted as within the normal range of travel.

There is always a possibility of a defective shifter or FD. 

I posted the details because some of what you wrote sounded like inexperience with Campy shifters. If I remeber correctly, you are not a long time Campy user. If that last click of the finger lever causes the FD to hit the high limit screw just right, the ball that is supposed to sit into the index disc detent won't quite sit properly and that can result in it's failing to hold position. Usually, the cure is backing the high limit screw out just a bit. That should be the fourth click, not the fifth. If I used a fifth click, I'd throw the chain off the right side. Campy has never made a shifter that cannot shift between two chainrings with one sweep of the finger lever, whether it's a double or triple.


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## otoman (Mar 8, 2004)

hmmmm


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*wrong....*

I won't repeat all of my post again, but most of your info is not correct. This topic has been gone over at great length several times.

Campy 11 cables use no ferrule at the ergo body. There is a metal wear disc at the bottom of the hole in the body, so the housing is inserted directly into the body. The hole is much too small to permit a ferrule to be used. The 4.1mm housing is a very snug fit by itself.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

word. and the stepped cable end is meant for specific rear dérailleur cable stops - its not meant to be installed 'wobbly'.

jeez, now your post comes off as kinda ironic.


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