# By George, what the hell just happened?



## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

I know there are going to be a number of posts/threads about George's recent mishap, but for what it's worth I don't think it could have been the result of a broken steerer tube. According to cyclingnews.com he was riding a special Bontrager aluminium steerer tube sprayed black. I think it's unlikely that an aluminium steerer tube would have failed in such a fashion. 
It looked like either a broken stem or the stem simply slipping off the top of the steerer tube. It's not like he was pulling hard on the bars when the failure occurred, which leads me to believe that it could have been slippage. I'm probably wrong and we'll know in the morning what happened, but looking at it closely on slowmo, it looks like an innocuous bit of slippage. A bit bizarre all the same, no?


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

gizzard said:


> I know there are going to be a number of posts/threads about George's recent mishap, but for what it's worth I don't think it could have been the result of a broken steerer tube. According to cyclingnews.com he was riding a special Bontrager aluminium steerer tube sprayed black. I think it's unlikely that an aluminium steerer tube would have failed in such a fashion.
> It looked like either a broken stem or the stem simply slipping off the top of the steerer tube. It's not like he was pulling hard on the bars when the failure occurred, which leads me to believe that it could have been slippage. I'm probably wrong and we'll know in the morning what happened, but looking at it closely on slowmo, it looks like an innocuous bit of slippage. A bit bizarre all the same, no?



I've seen a freeze frame of the bike and it looked clear to me that the steering tube sheared off clean just below the stem. The fork was still seated up into the headtube/hs races but there was no steering tube showing at the top. It also seems unlikey that the stem would slip up and off unless the both bolts snapped. On the other hand did it really make sense for them to spray paint the steering tube? Wouldn't it been better if it were not painted? Plus what about the sandblast/mediablast job they did to it? Was that a good idea? Seems like they might have botched that and taken away too much material. The bottom line is that it was Twrek.


----------



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Totally lame. Stupid lightweight dangerous junk.


----------



## velodoom (May 12, 2004)

*shot peened...*

generally you shot peen a surface to give it a bit of compressive stress which tends to give it a bit of extra strength and resistance to crack formation. but, it seems like this fork choice will haunt Hincapie for quite a number of years (atleast until he wins next year  since he was the best positioned rider at the time.

man, i was so excited for him until that happened.

cyclingnews.com made a big deal over his deep v cross sectioned wheels - i wonder if a point can be made that they transferred much more shock to the fork than a traditional box section Al rim would have. not that that is an excuse for a fork breaking, but a point nonetheless.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

velodoom said:


> generally you shot peen a surface to give it a bit of compressive stress which tends to give it a bit of extra strength and resistance to crack formation. but, it seems like this fork choice will haunt Hincapie for quite a number of years (atleast until he wins next year  since he was the best positioned rider at the time.
> 
> man, i was so excited for him until that happened.
> 
> cyclingnews.com made a big deal over his deep v cross sectioned wheels - i wonder if a point can be made that they transferred much more shock to the fork than a traditional box section Al rim would have. not that that is an excuse for a fork breaking, but a point nonetheless.



So when Scott Daubert said "blasted" he meant shot peened?


----------



## whit417 (Jul 5, 2005)

Doesn't look like it slipped to me.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

whit417 said:


> Doesn't look like it slipped to me.



Ah great picture... thanks


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

whit417 said:


> Doesn't look like it slipped to me.



So I'm looking at this picture and I'm trying to piece the situation together... The compression cap is still there. Did that bolt snap too? The stem bolts look like they're intact (one threads in from the left and the other from the right... I think)


----------



## divve (May 3, 2002)

1) Manufacturer defect
2) he already fell once earlier in the race and may have damaged it
3) mechanic overtightened the stem

...wheels transmitting too much shock.....can't really see this as an influencing factor. I've broken lots of forks due to abuse when I was younger. They always go near the steerer crown or right under where the separate fork legs join.


----------



## TitaniumFemur (Oct 19, 2004)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Totally lame. Stupid lightweight dangerous junk.


It wasn't even light weight... the fork came from Trek's Satellite low-end bikes...


----------



## surftel (Apr 18, 2005)

*most likely the crash*

as much as I think that Trek is junk the most likely reason is the previous crash caused damage that then was just made worse by the cobbles


----------



## Friction_Shifter (Feb 8, 2006)

should have used a quill stem


----------



## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Wondering if some dude at Trek beat up rocco when he was a kid or something.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

YGB321 said:


> Wondering if some dude at Trek beat up rocco when he was a kid or something.



No I've always kept my distance from Twrek... I rode a Merckx when I was a kid.


----------



## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

*#$*%^ *(&#$ Trek!!!*

This is why I would never buy a Trek or a Cannondale or any of the other manufacturers that shave costs by using their own cheapo fake brand components rather than established brands. You have to wonder if Trek or Cannondale is not even willing to put their own name on the stuff do you really want to trust it.

Maybe George's best chance yet screwed.


----------



## Dereck (Jan 31, 2005)

Have a feeling that bike is going to disappear into a box and not come out of the box until it's deep in Trek's "skunk works". 

This incident is going to take a whole herd of political spinmeisters to look any better than real bad...

D


----------



## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

Out of all the posts I see only one person who mentioned George's previous crash as a possible cause of the eventual failure. Don't you think that at least played a role?


----------



## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> This is why I would never buy a Trek or a Cannondale or any of the other manufacturers that shave costs by using their own cheapo fake brand components rather than established brands. You have to wonder if Trek or Cannondale is not even willing to put their own name on the stuff do you really want to trust it.
> 
> Maybe George's best chance yet screwed.


So what did Cannondale have to do with George's mishap today?


----------



## aham23 (Jul 6, 2005)

what a bunch of crap. cause its Trek / Bontrager it clearly was crap or defective? its all speculation! the fact is he did crash earlier and who knows what damage that did. later.


----------



## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

The prior crash was considered "minor," so it's sheer speculation as to whether it played a role in the steerer tube coming off. 

Scott Daubert is feeling the heat tonight.


----------



## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Other possibilities-
It could be the stem cut into the tube.
It could the the mechanic's fault.
Where are all the posts praising the wheelset that appears to have survived intact?


----------



## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

OK, rocco...I was teasing you about your disdain for Trek...God knows everyone has their favorites or least favorite brands for everything. But Im very curious as to why so many are using this mishaps as a referendum on Trek's quality. As if no other bikes have ever broken....no other parts have ever failed? 

It appears to me this was a pretty lame mistake to put a substandard part on GH's bike, not some kind of indication that their QC or engineering is poor.


----------



## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

Well, I suspect we are all speculating the true reason for the mechanical incident. But in this case, Trek's defect is presumed. Looks like Trek dropped the ball. The friggin steerer completely broke off. If the bike is built specifically for PR, then it should be able to handle "minor" crashes and the beating from the cobblestones. 

Trek certainly has a lot of explaining to do.


----------



## grampy bone (Feb 9, 2005)

Did the fork pull down out of the headset? What is the black space between the fork and headtube?

If it did, then this could be the stem not being tight enough. I'm sure the rattling these bikes were taking the bars and stem could have popped off in Georges hands. That had to be a sick feeling holding the handlebars after they were off the steer tube.


----------



## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

The wheels weren't really crashed hard. George went straight to the roadside grass. Doesn't seem to be much impact there.


----------



## KonaMan (Sep 22, 2004)

This is the comment made about the wheelset:
"And yesterday on the reconnaissance, they rode for three hours on the cobble sections. Actually, we were stopped on the side of the road watching the team go by, all seven riders, and as George went by, he said: 'I'm hitting every hole, I'm trying to break them'; he was actually trying to tear them up!"

Me thinks it wasn't the wheels that got tore up, but this might have weakend parts...


----------



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

That fork does not look like either of the Bonty Satellite forks listed here:

http://www.bontrager.com/Road/Components/Index_Road_Forks.php

Perhaps it's an OEM fork from another Trek bike?

Of course the prior wreck could have done something. But this is Paris Roubaix--they gotta expect the worst and be riding bikes that can take plenty of abuse. Fork, stem and bars better be bombproof for this kind of event.


----------



## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

grampy bone said:


> Did the fork pull down out of the headset? What is the black space between the fork and headtube?


Nail....HEAD. Indeed, what is that black space there!


----------



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

cyclejim said:


> Nail....HEAD. Indeed, what is that black space there!


Cyclingnews wrote: "Belgian television reports that it was Hincapie's fork steerer that broke before, forcing him to ride no hands on a cobbled sector...with the obvious result."

But it's hard to tell exactly from that photo. I guess it coulda been the stem coming off the top.


----------



## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

When you watch the replay in slo-mo, you can see the top of George's head dip down. I said it looks like he's getting ready to endo. Then suddenly he sat up and we all saw what happened next. I think the dip down by him was his bike shearing off pretty cleanly. Poor guy!


----------



## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

Henry Chinaski said:


> But it's hard to tell exactly from that photo. I guess it coulda been the stem coming off the top.


As rocco mentioned above at the end of OLN coverage there was a video clip showing someone picking the bike up and putting the bike upright where you can see the bottom race of HT resting flush on the fork crown yet you don't see any steerer sticking up on the top of HT... the steerer sheared off.

Also the alum steerer was supposedly painted black...


----------



## tsintesi (May 28, 2004)

cyclejim said:



> Nail....HEAD. Indeed, what is that black space there!


After the bars were umm... removed, what would keep the fork in there? Isn't that the steerer?


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

YGB321 said:


> OK, rocco...I was teasing you about your disdain for Trek...God knows everyone has their favorites or least favorite brands for everything. But Im very curious as to why so many are using this mishaps as a referendum on Trek's quality. As if no other bikes have ever broken....no other parts have ever failed?
> 
> It appears to me this was a pretty lame mistake to put a substandard part on GH's bike, not some kind of indication that their QC or engineering is poor.



In truth Trek isn't my cup of tea but in large this is mostly venting disappointment over what happened to Hincapie. Unless you were competing against the guy you probabaly wouldn't have much of a heart if you didn't want to see him win Paris-Roubaix. It was hard to see such a perfect opportunity slip away the way it did. 

However, the choice to use what may have been an inappropriate type of steering tube could be considered a poor engineering decision and it's not an implausible scenario that a QC screwup could have also played a part in the chain of events that lead to the failure. We'll (the general public) probably never know for sure why it failed but it's probably safe to say Disco's steering tubes will be made of steel for next year's Paris-Roubaix.


----------



## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

tsintesi said:


> After the bars were umm... removed, what would keep the fork in there? Isn't that the steerer?


Right but if you pushed that back up it almost looks like there is enough to clamp the stem on it, like the stem slipped off the steerer rather than the steerer broke but just speculating based on the picture and the video of course


----------



## tsintesi (May 28, 2004)

OK, I see your point now, but I'm not sure I agree. There is no steerer showing above, just below, so for all we know there is an equal space inside the head tube, and it snapped of clean at the stem.


----------



## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

Yea, that could be possible as well. As someone else pointed out in the fork thread the compression nut probably would have popped off if the stem slipped off the steerer and since it didnt its more likely the steerer did snap.


----------



## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

cyclejim said:


> if you pushed that back up *it almost looks like* there is enough to clamp the stem on it


??? 

How dya *almost* know the condition of the top end of the steerer tube hidden inside the headtube by looking at the bottom end?


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/apr06/apr10news



> "George Hincapie's Roubaix ended in disaster with 45 km to go when his aluminium steerer tube broke on the Mons-en-Pevele sector of cobbles."


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

It was the steering tube ...no doubt.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/apr06/apr10news



> "George Hincapie's Roubaix ended in disaster with 45 km to go when his aluminium steerer tube broke on the Mons-en-Pevele sector of cobbles."


----------



## Peith (Feb 16, 2006)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Other possibilities-
> It could be the stem cut into the tube.
> It could the the mechanic's fault.
> Where are all the posts praising the wheelset that appears to have survived intact?



damn straight. when George went end over end, his bars swung down into those rotating Aeolus wheels. I would have expected that to tear the spokes right out, but I havn't seen any pictures to show that the wheels collapsed; they look perfectly fine. Score one for Bontrager wheelworks, score -100000000000 for wherever that fork came from.

Its a Bontrager satellite fork; cyclingnews.com's interview reveals it is made of OCLV; why wouldn't they put an OCLV sticker on their stock bikes that have that fork?? Probalby cuz its not OCLV. Not to put the blame on carbon; it was the steertubes fault. The point is that if its not OCLV, its not Trek/Bontrager in-house ( methinks)


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

YGB321 said:


> Wondering if some dude at Trek beat up rocco when he was a kid or something.


Yeah, right before the nerds at Dell gave him a good pummeling with their pocket protectors.  As with most products, you can either swear by them or at them. I think we know which way George is leaning with Trek. I'm not sure I heard him right, but I think the first words out of his mouth after the crash were, "Summon my mechanic, and bring forth a tub of Vasaline and the cattle prod of discipline." 

Seriously, that crash was strange and unexpected, as were the DQs. That's why they run the race instead of just handing out the awards.


----------



## Kirky (Mar 29, 2006)

cyclejim said:


> Nail....HEAD. Indeed, what is that black space there!


Surely the 'black spacer' is the top cup of the Chris King headset? Trek dont use internal head races.

Also the column wasnt painted at all it was anodised black.


----------



## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I heard Hoste volunteered to work on Hincapie's bike the prior night. ;-)

I am not sure what the surprise is - Hincapie did say "no more seconds or thirds".


----------



## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

Trek came up with the "Paris-Roubaix Special", as part of their major marketing campaign, and used a sub-par component on the bike to be used in the toughest classic race on equipment. 

And you are telling me "not some kind of indication that their QC or engineering is poor" ????? 

You are kidding, right?


----------



## Rouleur (Mar 5, 2004)

*Hear a pin drop in Waterloo, WI*

As I watched George do his best rodeo cowboy impersonation and then crushing his right shoulder on the belgium dirt, I could only imagine what Scott Daubert was saying. 

I can't say how sorry I am for George...two teammates and with such great form. 

Failures happen. For crying out loud, this is Paris-Roubaix! But still, I can only imagine the collective, "OH S__T!" coming for the lips of every Trek employee.

Just food for thought: Boonen had a special Time fork with a STEEL steerer tube made up for P-R.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Rouleur said:


> As I watched George do his best rodeo cowboy impersonation and then crushing his right shoulder on the belgium dirt, I could only imagine what Scott Daubert was saying.
> 
> I can't say how sorry I am for George...two teammates and with such great form.
> 
> ...


Hincapie's steering tube should have been steel.


----------



## MTBRoad (Oct 25, 2005)

*Not the first time.........*

On Friday night on the FIT channel I watched the Chasing Lance episode that documented the days leading up to the Hell of the North *last year*. There was a large section that focused on the equipment. Scott Daubert(sp) specifically pointed out the difference in the bikes and stated that they were using a fork with more rake and longer fork leg that helped with handling for this type of riding (cobbles). He explained the fork in almost the same fashion that he did leading up to this years race. It is my belief that this fork was race proven last year. Also I believe the previous crash contributed to the final failure.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

MTBRoad said:


> On Friday night on the FIT channel I watched the Chasing Lance episode that documented the days leading up to the Hell of the North *last year*. There was a large section that focused on the equipment. Scott Daubert(sp) specifically pointed out the difference in the bikes and stated that they were using a fork with more rake and longer fork leg that helped with handling for this type of riding (cobbles). He explained the fork in almost the same fashion that he did leading up to this years race. It is my belief that this fork was race proven last year. Also I believe the previous crash contributed to the final failure.



The earlier fall was minor. It's Paris-Roubaix and the fork didn't do what it needed to do when it counted. Last year didn't matter this year.


----------



## Clark (Aug 10, 2004)

Now wasn't george involed in a accident earlier in the race? Steerer could have been damaged then and took a lot pounding before it finally gave away.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*my only gripe is*

that steerer sheered at the bottom of the stem, clean. when allot tends to fail it doesn't do so in such a 'neat and clean' fashion. metal rarely breaks in a clean stright line. I'm calling new secret fork and cover up. maybe the story of blasted and anodized was to throw folks off who would see the steerer through the stem slots.
The failure looked exactly like a CF failure. I've broken 2 alloy seat tubes on a certain un named MTB and it was an ugly torn metal mess.


----------



## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

Common sense observations?
1. "One-off" bike that doesn't feature the fork proven time after time... and again yesterday on Hoste and Gusev's bikes. 
2. George rides a larger bike than Tom B, with arguably greater leverage and stress on the longer steer tube. And yet Tom's had the stronger tubing. 

The wheels didn't create an issue, but they are another "huh?" feature. I think this was a case of engineers getting too excited about skunk works instead of what really works.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*they could have had all the same fork*

(Gusev, Hoste and GH) but GH's took a 'hit' when he crashed earlier.it appears GH has zero stack so stem to top of headset is as strong as it is going to get. I'm trying to see if Boonen has any stack. George may be taller but I'm gonna bet Tom puts more torque on his bars


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

fastfullback said:


> Common sense observations?
> 1. "One-off" bike that doesn't feature the fork proven time after time... and again yesterday on Hoste and Gusev's bikes.
> 2. George rides a larger bike than Tom B, with arguably greater leverage and stress on the longer steer tube. And yet Tom's had the stronger tubing.
> 
> The wheels didn't create an issue, but they are another "huh?" feature. I think this was a case of engineers getting too excited about skunk works instead of what really works.



I don't know for sure how much larger GH's frame is actually but I know they both use 14cm stems. I totally agree with what your saying about the "skunk works" mentality that seems to have carried over from LA's TDF years. Keep that gee whiz stuff for July...


----------



## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Stop IT!!*



terzo rene said:


> I heard Hoste volunteered to work on Hincapie's bike the prior night. ;-)
> 
> I am not sure what the surprise is - Hincapie did say "no more seconds or thirds".


LMAO.


----------



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> that steerer sheered at the bottom of the stem, clean. when allot tends to fail it doesn't do so in such a 'neat and clean' fashion. metal rarely breaks in a clean stright line. I'm calling new secret fork and cover up. maybe the story of blasted and anodized was to throw folks off who would see the steerer through the stem slots.
> The failure looked exactly like a CF failure. I've broken 2 alloy seat tubes on a certain un named MTB and it was an ugly torn metal mess.


Yeah, as I stated above they told Cyclingnews it was a Bonty Satellite fork, but it sure doesn't look like one. 

http://www.bontrager.com/Road/Components/Index_Road_Forks.php


----------



## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*I agree*



atpjunkie said:


> that steerer sheered at the bottom of the stem, clean. when allot tends to fail it doesn't do so in such a 'neat and clean' fashion. metal rarely breaks in a clean stright line. I'm calling new secret fork and cover up. maybe the story of blasted and anodized was to throw folks off who would see the steerer through the stem slots.
> The failure looked exactly like a CF failure. I've broken 2 alloy seat tubes on a certain un named MTB and it was an ugly torn metal mess.


Why would you anodize a part that is not exposed? Shot peen yes...but why were they concerned over making sure that a hidden part is black? Was there also an elastomer joint in the steerer tube? Maybe an OCLV tube with an elastomer joint built into it?


----------



## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

Trek has done so well for so long with their carbon fiber creations that longtime Postal/Disco boys probaby never give it a second thought. Old school ideas seem to be limited to saddles, bars, and pedals while Euro teams seem more open to unsexy but proven ideas. Can't say I would know any better, though. When I saw the CN report I didn't like the wheels but figured the fork was fine...


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*we're like the daily KOS*

uncovering conspircies and lies. check that photo of the Satellite and look at the leg curve. (frontal view) fork goes in and out.
Now look at this picture and these forks bow out.
NO SATELLITE


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

fastfullback said:


> Trek has done so well for so long with their carbon fiber creations that longtime Postal/Disco boys probaby never give it a second thought. Old school ideas seem to be limited to saddles, bars, and pedals while Euro teams seem more open to unsexy but proven ideas. Can't say I would know any better, though. When I saw the CN report I didn't like the wheels but figured the fork was fine...



I don't understand why those wheels were a wise choice for that race either considering the totality of related factors. Even if they are strong enough...


----------



## Ignatz (Sep 9, 2004)

*Safety First Carbon Fiber Crash Replacement and Care Information*

"Embracing a “Safety First” philosophy, Bontrager is introducing a Carbon Fiber Crash Replacement Program to make it easy and affordable to replace damaged carbon parts. Although carbon is arguably the strongest material used in the bicycle industry, it's important to remember that it reacts differently as a result of major impacts than aluminum, steel or titanium. Therefore, embracing a “Safety First” philosophy, Bontrager is highlighting a Carbon Fiber Crash Replacement Program to make it easy and affordable to replace damaged carbon parts at your local Authorized Bontrager Dealer." (from the Bontrager website).
Maybe George needs to call his local Authorized Bontrager Dealer??


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*smoking gun v_2*

check these pix as well. leg curve of these forks has nothing to do with the Satellite.
my guess is this suspended frame with 'secret fork' would (had it won) been used as a new bike model or consumers. fast and comfortable


----------



## capt_phun (Jun 14, 2004)

Ignatz said:


> "Embracing a “Safety First” philosophy, Bontrager is introducing a Carbon Fiber Crash Replacement Program to make it easy and affordable to replace damaged carbon parts. Although carbon is arguably the strongest material used in the bicycle industry, it's important to remember that it reacts differently as a result of major impacts than aluminum, steel or titanium. Therefore, embracing a “Safety First” philosophy, Bontrager is highlighting a Carbon Fiber Crash Replacement Program to make it easy and affordable to replace damaged carbon parts at your local Authorized Bontrager Dealer." (from the Bontrager website).
> Maybe George needs to call his local Authorized Bontrager Dealer??


Ahh you beat me to it. I was going to ask George if he saved his receipt so he could exchange his fork. "I was just riding along P_R and my steerer tube broke."

SO maybe some of the J.R.A. stories are true???


----------



## Ignatz (Sep 9, 2004)

Where's Eugene Christophe when you need him?


----------



## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

capt_phun said:


> Ahh you beat me to it. I was going to ask George if he saved his receipt so he could exchange his fork. "I was just riding along P_R and my steerer tube broke."
> 
> SO maybe some of the J.R.A. stories are true???


Now that is funny!


----------



## smsunman805 (Jan 19, 2005)

*Broom Stick Trick?*

I bet alot of riders will be using a Broom stick in the steerer tube trick next year in flanders & roubaix.


----------



## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

capt_phun said:


> I was going to ask George if he saved his receipt so he could exchange his fork. "I was just riding along P_R and my steerer tube broke."


That reminds me of when the alpinist Alex Lowe got injured while ice climbing. He was not sure if his insurance would cover climbing related injury, so he when he made his claim he just put down, "Slipped on ice."


----------



## goose127 (Jun 9, 2004)

maybe the first fall was minor to George but it could have still slammed the bike hard in some unorthodox manner and weakend the tube. My guess is that the tube was faulty to begin with, the first crash weakend it and the pave put it over the edge. Its one thing for George to be out of the race, I am more sad for him that this could put the rest of his seasons results into jeopardy.


----------



## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

fornaca68 said:


> So what did Cannondale have to do with George's mishap today?


Any bike could have developed a fracture following a crash that could then develop into a serious issue after hours of pummelling on the cobble stones. TREK or no TREK.

Anyone who has ever crashed a bike (or two) should know this.


----------



## mtnpat (Mar 8, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> The failure looked exactly like a CF failure. I've broken 2 alloy seat tubes on a certain un named MTB and it was an ugly torn metal mess.


YEAH, we had our own little version of the Paris-Roubaix Sunday, and one person broke their aluminium alloy handlebars - ugly torn mess:


----------



## erik99 (Apr 18, 2005)

I doubt we'll ever get the straight poop on this failure. I'm sure the spin doctors are hard at work on this.

Cylingnews quoted JB as saying George had reported a loose condition in his bar before the big crash. They equated it to a loose headset.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/apr06/apr11news


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

erik99 said:


> I doubt we'll ever get the straight poop on this failure. I'm sure the spin doctors are hard at work on this.
> 
> Cylingnews quoted JB as saying George had reported a loose condition in his bar before the big crash. They equated it to a loose headset.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/apr06/apr11news


To be precise...


> "Hincapie told team directors that he felt looseness in his steering and thought his headset may have come loose"


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*nice pic*

that is a classic 'metal failure' pic. hope he was alright. but that clearly illustrates the 'torn' look to what I was referring. GH's looked like a straight sheer which is morein-line with a crash caused CF crack going to full failure. It'll break clean along a fibre line (actually in-between)


----------



## dogmeat (Sep 26, 2005)

*Trek customers could care less*



Rouleur said:


> As I watched George do his best rodeo cowboy impersonation and then crushing his right shoulder on the belgium dirt, I could only imagine what Scott Daubert was saying.
> 
> I can't say how sorry I am for George...two teammates and with such great form.
> 
> ...


"Well, the steering tube never broke when LANCE WAS WINNING 8 TOURS..."
That's what sales will say. Trek has a problem, and they don't seem to know it. Lance is most likely not going to win the TdF this year. The average American thinks he will, if the Average American thinks about it at all. How long can Lance's image keep selling bikes? 

I was at a club meeting of the biggest club in the area, 20 miles from the Trek plant. People seriously want to know who is going to ride for Disco instead of Lance... people who ride 3000 plus miles a year don't know. Nobody will hear of this.

For me, I'm just glad Hincappie didn't get FUBARed. How many people really care about Trek? 9999/10,000 people buy 'em after a 2 minute test ride in a parking lot, and buy the matching Disco shirt- god bless 'em.

And the cheap steel touring fork on my cyclocross bike is looking genius.

'meat


----------



## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

Come on, used by one person in one race and did not break equals "race proven"? Let alone it broke in the second race (assuming same fork)!

The other thing is I could have sworn the steerer tube is black. And I have seen many Treks (owned quite a few too) and none of them have black steerers other than the most recent one on the SSLX model. 

I am 99% sure Trek is trying to cover up the failure of their new carbon steerer.


----------



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

elviento said:


> Come on, used by one person in one race and did not break equals "race proven"? Let alone it broke in the second race (assuming same fork)!
> 
> The other thing is I could have sworn the steerer tube is black. And I have seen many Treks (owned quite a few too) and none of them have black steerers other than the most recent one on the SSLX model.
> 
> I am 99% sure Trek is trying to cover up the failure of their new carbon steerer.


I don't see any evidence that Trek is trying to cover up anything. I don't understand why they would tell Cyclingnews that they were using a Satellite fork when they obviously weren't. Or maybe they had planned to, but changed their mind later (maybe the interview and photos were done at different times). Or maybe Scott Daubert didn't know what he was talking about.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/apr06/roubaix06/?id=/tech/2006/features/hincapie_trek

Of course Trek will make the argument that the failure was started by the first crash. But there is no doubt in my mind that the fork used wasn't beefy enough for this race or this rider. It sounds like Hincapie was really beating on this bike in training, too, which probably didn't help matters.


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

It just seems that they're experimenting a bit too much come race day. Everyone rides beefed up frames, proven technology, 32x box section rims, no suspension.

If you want to turn in into an R&D lab, fine. But prepare for failure. This is what the European makers have over the American designers+Chinese manufacturers. Even the teams on AL/Steel bikes, old Mavic SSC rims & wheels do this for a purpose.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Team mechanic*

said it was a Satellite Fork with the steer tube (alloy) blasted and anodized black.
From the pics we can tell this isn't a Satellite fork, the leg curve doesn't match.
Now Blasting (I'm assuming Shot peening) strengthens alloy, but Anodizing doesn't. so why anodize an 'invisible piece', what purpose does it serve. well the only place a steerer 
is visible is the gaps in the stem. So lets see Trek has always had the Alloy (Silver )showing through which has always given pesky tech guys the nod that they are running alloy steer tubes.
Now Trek has a 'new fork' that they plan on marketing. CF steer tube, maybe with dampening (maybe inserts like the 'trage bar end plugs) but they don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet (kinda like wehn LA was featured with D/A 10 before it's release and Shimano said "Huh, new group?". To throw off pesky reporters who would note the 'black' in the stem clamp gaps they sell the 'black anodized' story. Had Hincapie won or podiumed (no failure) they could have then 'released' the secret new High Performance yet comfort providing fork to consumers. But alas it failed and will be buried as they now will use the 'pre spin' to create the post spin. Look at the steerer in the post wreck photo, is that matte anodizing or CF?


----------



## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> said it was a Satellite Fork with the steer tube (alloy) blasted and anodized black.
> From the pics we can tell this isn't a Satellite fork, the leg curve doesn't match.
> Now Blasting (I'm assuming Shot peening) strengthens alloy, but Anodizing doesn't. so why anodize an 'invisible piece', what purpose does it serve. well the only place a steerer
> is visible is the gaps in the stem. So lets see Trek has always had the Alloy (Silver )showing through which has always given pesky tech guys the nod that they are running alloy steer tubes.
> Now Trek has a 'new fork' that they plan on marketing. CF steer tube, maybe with dampening (maybe inserts like the 'trage bar end plugs) but they don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet (kinda like wehn LA was featured with D/A 10 before it's release and Shimano said "Huh, new group?". To throw off pesky reporters who would note the 'black' in the stem clamp gaps they sell the 'black anodized' story. Had Hincapie won or podiumed (no failure) they could have then 'released' the secret new High Performance yet comfort providing fork to consumers. But alas it failed and will be buried as they now will use the 'pre spin' to create the post spin. Look at the steerer in the post wreck photo, is that matte anodizing or CF?


This is kind of funny. Its kind of like a Smoking Gun expose or something, all we need is a mug shot. Maybe you should start a cycling specific website for this kind of stuff.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Go to Treks site*

or other posts here. check the fork blade curve of the Satellite and the drop out. Now check the pix of george,leif and gusev. tell me those are the same forks.
total smoking gun. every mfr has secret things they don't tell the rags or consumers. the first of the Madone SSLs were 'secret' and being raced pre release as is buidling frames for Disco that look like 'standard' Treks but use different weaves or thread count CF. It is all too common to discount it specifically when the photographic evidence doesn't 'match' their story. I wish I had time to, but when this story breaks, you heard it here first.

It's just like the Daily KOS exposed Congressional Candidate (50th District) Howard Kaloogian's picures of how 'everything is fine in Baghdad' photos as shots of a suburb of Istanbul.


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

rocco said:


> In truth Trek isn't my cup of tea but in large this is mostly venting disappointment over what happened to Hincapie. Unless you were competing against the guy you probabaly wouldn't have much of a heart if you didn't want to see him win Paris-Roubaix. It was hard to see such a perfect opportunity slip away the way it did.
> 
> However, the choice to use what may have been an inappropriate type of steering tube could be considered a poor engineering decision and it's not an implausible scenario that a QC screwup could have also played a part in the chain of events that lead to the failure. We'll (the general public) probably never know for sure why it failed but it's probably safe to say Disco's steering tubes will be made of steel for next year's Paris-Roubaix.


 I know steel isn't as prone to metal fatigue as Aluminum, so it seems it would have been a better choice for something like P-R, but I wonder what people would have been saying if it came down to a Boonen Hincappie sprint in the velodrome, and Hincappie won by a tire width? All the Belgians would be complaining about the over-engineered heavy-weight crap Boonen was riding.
We can talk this thing to death, and indeed, we should, (that's what forums are for), but I'm wondering about something previously mentioned- the possibility that a "diligent" mechanic could have caused the failure. Somewhere on this forum in a different thread there's a great picture from German TV that shows that the tube sheered off right at the frame. That makes me suspect that maybe a mechanic gave the stem bolts "a little extra" torque to make sure it didn't come loose on the cobbles instead of going right to specs. If that happened he could have creased the tube and created a failure point. You can argue steel wouldn't have broken like that, but properly prepared aluminum wouldn't have, either. 

Found the picture. I'll try to attach it.


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> check these pix as well. leg curve of these forks has nothing to do with the Satellite.
> my guess is this suspended frame with 'secret fork' would (had it won) been used as a new bike model or consumers. fast and comfortable


Ummm, did any of those riders look "comfortable" going over the cobbles? Riding a paint shaker looks more comfortable than that.


----------



## wks9326 (Apr 24, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> that is a classic 'metal failure' pic. hope he was alright. but that clearly illustrates the 'torn' look to what I was referring. GH's looked like a straight sheer which is morein-line with a crash caused CF crack going to full failure. It'll break clean along a fibre line (actually in-between)



That clean line you are looking at might be the top of the headset.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*in L-33's pic (as well as the video from the race)*

steer tube goes straight across.nothing was sticking out of the bottom of the stem nor the top of the steer tube. there's another pic though that does look like black an alloy on cyclingnews (pre race)


----------

