# Tubeless failure descending



## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi all,

I have a HED Ardenne FR Plus wheelset mated to Bontrager R3 tires. I've placed Stan's tubeless latex.

I run rear at 100 lbs.

Brakes are new Dura Ace 9000.

Two weekends in a row now I have had rear wheel failure after a steep 1+ mile decent.

First time the standard rim tape "popped".

I then replaced the rim tape with Gorilla tape.

Second time the air just simply leaked out quickly; fast enough where I felt it and stopped in time. Funny though, there was small amount of air still in tire.

What I think is going on is heat from pumping breaks is so strong, it separated tires, rim and latex.

Thoughts?


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

duffin said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a HED Ardenne FR Plus wheelset mated to *Bontrager R3 tires*. I've placed Stan's tubeless latex.


Running R3 as tubeless? 

YOu should be running actual road tubeless ready tires, as you're having bead failure from high pressure ghetto tubeless.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

First make sure you have the tubeless version of the R3 tire.

Two layers of Stan's tape is required for tubeless.

Whether using Gorilla tape or some other air-tight tape sealant is necessary because the tape will usually have very small gaps that allow air to escape - the sealant will plug these instantly. And, because Gorilla tape is thicker there is a larger gap where the Gorilla tape overlaps.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

either go to tubes and clincher tire or go tubular. pick one.


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## Yoyodene (Feb 23, 2005)

Interesting, I think you are on to something with the heat being a factor.

I agree with mtbpete, try the Stans tape and a couple ounces of Stans sealant. 100 PSI also sounds pretty high but should be within the operating range of the rim/tire combo. Maybe give it a try at 90 and see how things go?

We are also assuming you are using the R3 TUBELESS tire, correct?


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

I am running the tubeless version of the R3 700x25.

First first failure was tape rupture (under lots of decent heat) while running Stan's tape + Stan's sealant.

Second failure was fast, silent leak (under lots of decent heat) running Gorilla tape with good overlap + Stan's sealant.

When I pulled tire off to insert tube on second failure in the road, I noticed sealant was soft and goo like along bead and didn't require hard pressure as usual to peel tire from rim. It look like sealant couldn't deal with heat.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

No other theories what could be happening and what to correct?


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

duffin said:


> No other theories what could be happening and what to correct?


you should contact notubes to see what they can offer in terms of advice.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

If this were me, after two failures at the same descent, I would quit "tubeless" with this combo.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

CleavesF - not same decent and not same setup.

I will call Stan's to see what they say about heat liquifying bead.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

The only other thing I can think of.... maybe Bontrager tubeless doesn't like stan's.... maybe try Bonty's own sealant (which iirc, is not stan's)


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## triumph3banger (Jun 13, 2012)

cmg said:


> either go to tubes and clincher tire or go tubular. pick one.


 Maybe with the setup he has, it might be a good idea... But Tubeless is working fine for me. I have the Hutch fusion 3's on Mavic K SL. No tape needed. I'm never going back to tubes, and tubular is too much trouble for me. Don't discount tubeless altogether...


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

I haven't had issues with descending... going from the top of Snowshow Mtn to Cass (to the start of the greenbrier river trail)... my setup is different:
- Stan's Alpha 400
- Stan's tape
- Stan's sealant
- Specialized the Captain 2BR 700x34c

with rim brakes on my cross bike


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## andy tetmeyer (Jun 20, 2008)

Duffin, 
you are running way too much psi for a 25mm wide rim. 85 should be the tops with a 23mm tire. 
Gorrilla tape may not be airtight. 
Andy Tetmeyer
I work at Hed Wheels.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

andy tetmeyer said:


> Duffin,
> you are running way too much psi for a 25mm wide rim. 85 should be the tops with a 23mm tire.
> Gorrilla tape may not be airtight.
> Andy Tetmeyer
> I work at Hed Wheels.


what do you recommend for tape then?

Gorilla tape is a proven tape over in MTBR, though it's proven in a low pressure tubeless system.

or.. do you recommend using a rim strip also?


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

View topic - no tubes on HED Ardennes? ? Messageboard.NoTubes.com

...they "tested" it... but it was with Hutchinson tubeless tires.... not Bontrager, which mimicks the UST style bead/rim.


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## andy tetmeyer (Jun 20, 2008)

tednugent said:


> what do you recommend for tape then?
> 
> Gorilla tape is a proven tape over in MTBR, though it's proven in a low pressure tubeless system.
> 
> or.. do you recommend using a rim strip also?


I have not tried gorilla tape, did not know if it was airtight or not. We have not needed a rim strip for road tubeless, just a double layer of the tape that we (HED) include with the Plus rims. Far as I can tell it is similar or the same as the Stan's tape. I suspect that PSI was the main culprit. 100 psi in a tubeless system with a 25 mm rim (assuming 23mm tire) would be roughly the same amount of air as 120 to 125psi on a 19mm rim. That's way above the high 80s/low 90s psi that I have read about for use on 19mm tubeless sytems. I don't have all the figures at hand here to make the exact calculation for air volume equivalent.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Andy, thanks for chiming in.

I am running Bonty 700x25c not 23c. What is your recommended pressure for 25c? I thought it was 95 psi which I run front and back.

Here is what I have deduced so far after talking with Bob, a Stan's tech today.

First failure was from not having two loops of rim tape - now their recommendation for road tubeless. After failure when switching to Gorilla tape, I discovered only one loop of tape.

Second failure of lost air quickly on decent was from re-using same tire which most likely had a damaged bead from first failure.

I didn't ask Bob if Bontrager tire would have an adverse reaction with Stan's, but he did explain that the bead and rim provide the seal, not so much the sealant.

My course of action now is to:
1) get a new Bonty 700x25c tubeless tire, 
2) redo both rims with Stan's thin tape with two loops, and 
3) Run Andy's recommended pressure for 25mm HED plus rim and 25c tire.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

duffin said:


> First failure was from not having two loops of rim tape - now their recommendation for road tubeless. After failure when switching to Gorilla tape, I discovered only one loop of tape.


Yeah, that's always been their recommendation since day one. If you watched the video of how to setup the rim, Stan clearly tells you to use two loops of tape.

I watched the video several times before I converted a rim, and watched/paused it during my first conversion to make sure I followed his directions. I have tens of thousands of kilometers on converted Road Tubeless with zero failures.


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## andy tetmeyer (Jun 20, 2008)

If you want a short answer - then 80 psi with 25mm tires and 165lbs body weight. If you are inclined toward tuning and experimentation then the long(er) answer is below. 

Preferred PSI has a lot of variables: rider weight, road condition, desired result. Weight is easiest to adjust for - heavier riders need more pressure than lighter riders. Road condition is somewhat subjective, in general you want to gradually lower psi as the road gets rougher. 
Desired result is very subjective. Do you want to go fast as possible? pretty fast with some comfort? 50/50 speed vs comfort? 

We're working on a tuning guide for our plus rims, because tire pressure is simply not one size fits all. One of the things that we'll really promote about our Plus rims (or any rim 25mm or wider) is that you can run a BIG range of pressures - so you very easily tune your ride. 
As noted, I am working on a tuning guide, so I'll lay out some guidelines based on my experience since last fall on Plus rims:
I go about 165lbs. 
My "go-to" bikes are both steel with Max tubing and Max forks. 
We're in Minnesota, the roads I ride are adequate but not the best. 

On the road with 25mm GP4000 tires I have settled on 78psi rear and 75 front. I have gone as high as 85, and as low as 60. 85 is a little rough and buzzy for road feel, and though I was riding my fastest times ever on my daily commute (30 seconds faster than my previous best for 13 miles through town) I got three flats in three days at that PSI. They're the only flats I have had since I started riding Plus rims. It is my belief that the tire carcass was stretched very tight and made the tires more prone to cuts from glass. 
At high 70s psi I am still 20 seconds faster than at any time on narrower rims, and the better ride and (apparent) flat durability are worth the small time difference to me for commuting. For TTs I would increase tire pressure, but not for mass start races. 
With pressures in the 60s the ride is dreamy, but just not as fast as with higher pressure. 
On gravel with 35mm tires I am riding 31 to 33 PSI. I can descend and corner with complete confidence and have no trouble keeping in the peloton. No pinch flats or dented rims in 700 race miles this year.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Andy - good information. Hard to compare Minnesota to Marin/Sonoma County. 

I got the PLUS set from Sea Otter display. Were you there in the HED booth?

I am having trouble understanding how to use your post for my PSI formula.

You state you are riding Conti 4000S, but those are tube tires while I am riding tubeless Bonty R3.

I am 200 lbs riding a Cannondale EVO hi-mod for speed. The Dura Ace 9000 brakes have 25% more stopping power over RED and prior DA brakes (i.e., more heat on rim).

Roads are medium smooth to rough and pot holes and patches. I ride with fast master groups around Mt. Tam and Hwy 1 in Marin and Sonoma counties.

I am desiring it all (ha, ha) - speed and handling with durability for my average ride of 40-60 miles:
- power uphills (4-8% grade for 1.5 - 3.5 miles x 4 climbs) and 
- handling descents (same grade), and
- great rolling for TT 10-16 miles at a time.

What formula or starting point should I use to determine the best PSI for my weight and performance desire?


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## andy tetmeyer (Jun 20, 2008)

What formula or starting point should I use to determine the best PSI for my weight and performance desire


We're trying to get some of this to a formulaic stage. Not there yet. At the risk of turning this into a circular firing squad - Bontrager and other mfgs ought to have some helpful input. 
Nevertheless, at 200 lbs, 25mm tire and rim, I think you want to be 85-92 psi. I suspect that the 85 end of things is more appropriate. 

The michelin inflation chart is the closest published guide I can find. With 25 tire and 25 rim, you are at the equivalent air volume of a 28 to 30mm tire on the old 19mm rims that this chart was based on. It recommends 80 PSI for 28-32mm tires and a 180 lb rider - and inflation to the amount listed on the sidewall for riders over 180. The scale goes up about 5 psi for every 20 lbs weight increase.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

What is the advantage of tubeless over tubes? Nothing I can tell.

Since the tubeless tires normally weight 270g alone (compare that to a Conti GP4000S at 205g, plus 80-100g for a regular inner tube, make for a 300g tire/tube setup.)

The 270g tubeless tire, 50g sealant, tape etc...you are at 50g heavier than a comparable clincher tire/tube setup with no sealant. Just carry a spare tube, good to go.

I run tubulars for racing strictly, regular clinchers with tire/tubes for training. No problems and this is a known proven quantity over the decades...no surprises. Tubeless, well...as TS has posted, near disaster results 2x times. Sketchy!


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

zigmeister said:


> What is the advantage of tubeless over tubes? Nothing I can tell.
> 
> Since the tubeless tires normally weight 270g alone (compare that to a Conti GP4000S at 205g, plus 80-100g for a regular inner tube, make for a 300g tire/tube setup.)
> 
> ...


The advantages is that you can run them at lower pressure without fear of pinch flats, which makes them more comfortable and handle better. Subjectively, the ride quality is better than tubed clinchers. Though you can put sealant in tubes, I wouldn't because it would make changing them difficult and messy, but with tubeless it's easy to run with sealant and enjoy having it fix small punctures. If you use a tubeless tire and tubeless rim, they're not sketchy at all because the bead locks solidly. No problems here.


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## andy tetmeyer (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't think tubeless is sketchy if done right. I DO however think that there is little to no advantage to tubeless on our wider rims. In 2007 when we started with the C2 rim, one of the first things we did was try them tubeless. It worked fine, but there did not seem to be any advantage. With 23mm wide (now 25 on our Plus) rims, it is already possible and advisable to run lower pressure and you can do it without losing speed. 
We're agnostic on the question of tubeless. Open minded, but at present we're right in the middle of the fence. 
Andy - working at Hed Wheels ever since the 90s.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

On the roads in Marin County, I see people with punctures all the time. Myself, I have had 5 punctures in 12 months on clinchers with tubes.

My virgin experience on tubeless to date has resulted in two failures that I now chalk up to total user error not having properly setup the 25mm rim and tubeless tire. 

First failure was lack of two rounds of rim tape over 10 PSI inflation; second failure was running bad bead from first failure on top of over inflating the setup by 10 PSI.

I fixed everything and road hard this past weekend (at 95 PSI) with no hint of failures. 

Based on Andy's advice, I will now run at 90 PSI with 25mm tubeless tire and rim.

Funny, even though 95 PSI was too high, it felt like a very plush ride this weekend with tons of control.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Andy,

More setup questions for the 25mm HED Ardenne Plus.

Thoughts on running 23 tubeless tire on front / 25 on back? What is air pressure change for 23c tubeless?

Thoughts on correct air pressure for 23 or 25 tubed tire for 25mm rim?


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't fully understand your setup - are you running "tubeless" rims or are they standard clincher rims? 

Obviously if they are standard clincher rims there is nothing you can do to prevent tubeless blow-offs and leaks, as the bead shelf is not going to hold. 

If they are indeed tubeless rims, then I suspect the tape. I have been running Bontrager R3 TLRs all season (just wore through my 3rd set) on Campy 2-way fit wheels with Stan's with no problems in all sorts of conditions. I've experimented with different running pressures, etc. Of all the tubeless tires I've used - and I've used most - they are the best overall.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Kristatos said:


> I don't fully understand your setup - are you running "tubeless" rims or are they standard clincher rims?
> 
> ...Of all the tubeless tires I've used - and I've used most - they are the best overall.


I should have made it clear from the very first post that the HED Ardenne FR Plus are tubeless clinchers.

Hutchinson just announced new tubeless models that are lighter. So, we all have new one's to try.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Kristatos said:


> Obviously if they are standard clincher rims there is nothing you can do to prevent tubeless blow-offs and leaks, as the bead shelf is not going to hold.


That's not the slightest bit obvious and rather incorrect. Most standard clincher rims work just fine with Road Tubeless; it's the tires that *must* be correctly selected, not necessarily the rims.


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## triumph3banger (Jun 13, 2012)

pmt said:


> That's not the slightest bit obvious and rather incorrect. Most standard clincher rims work just fine with Road Tubeless; it's the tires that *must* be correctly selected, not necessarily the rims.


 Correct. You just have to master the art of taping the spoke holes with Stan's or Gorilla tape. I basically didn't know what I was doing when I bought my Ksyrium SL's, so I ordered tubes to mount my almost new Conti GP 4000s'. Then i read an article from Glory Cycles about Ksyriums running tubeless. The SL's don't have spoke holes all the way through, so can run tubeless with stan's. Or not. So I ordered some Hutch Fusion 3's, and aint going back to tubes! YRMV. But 80F and 85 R is like having suspension...


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

pmt said:


> That's not the slightest bit obvious and rather incorrect. Most standard clincher rims work just fine with Road Tubeless; it's the tires that *must* be correctly selected, not necessarily the rims.


Everyone is entitled to their opinions but I have read plenty of stories of blow-offs from standard rims and articles from trusted sources (such as Lennard Zinn) that explain why a standard rim bed won't seal a tubeless tire adequately. So, I stand by my statement. You may get lucky and not experience a blow-off but given that there isn't a flat bed for the tubeless tire to seal onto running tubeless at typical road bike pressures is not recommended.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Kristatos said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions but I have read plenty of stories of blow-offs from standard rims and articles from trusted sources (such as Lennard Zinn) that explain why a standard rim bed won't seal a tubeless tire adequately. So, I stand by my statement. You may get lucky and not experience a blow-off but given that there isn't a flat bed for the tubeless tire to seal onto running tubeless at typical road bike pressures is not recommended.


Please cite one of these 'sources' that actually had a real Road Tubeless tire blow off the rim. Perhaps you read about people trying it with plain tires.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Of course anything is possible, but I have seen Hutchinson tubeless tires mounted on every road rim imaginable and never have I seen one blow off. I have also seem many people mistakenly attempt to use a non-tubeless version of the Hutchinson tire or some other non-tubeless tire on any rim and it always blows off by 90 psi.


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

I think the key thing here is that it is always best to discard the tire after the first blow off. The carbon/Kevlar beads don't stretch and in the process of blowing off they can be permanently damaged. The initial install could have prevented the failure.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

duffin said:


> No other theories what could be happening and what to correct?


One thing I wonder about is the length of the hook on the Belgium Plus rim. On other "Tubeless compatible" rims, the hook protrudes 3mm inside. On the Belgium Plus, only 2mm. This might explain your second instance of air loss.

As for the Stan tape "popping" was it the 21 or the 25mm?


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