# Euro style work stand



## Dan0930 (May 28, 2004)

So I decided to bite the bullet and buy a euro style workstand. I was just wondering if anyone had any opinions about the brand.

I know Park makes the PRS-20 and Tacx makes the Spider team and Cyclemotion. Are there any other manufacturers?

Of these two are there any opinions Tacx vs park?

Thanks


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Dan0930 said:


> So I decided to bite the bullet and buy a euro style workstand. I was just wondering if anyone had any opinions about the brand.
> 
> I know Park makes the PRS-20 and Tacx makes the Spider team and Cyclemotion. Are there any other manufacturers?
> 
> ...


Performance / Nashbar also sell one under the "Spin Doctor" brand. Not sure of the manufacturer. Didn't seem impressive when I saw one at the shop.

I have a Park 20, and know someone that has the 21. Good stuff, very sturdy. The 20 is a tank. Means it won't move around easily, which is either a good or bad thing, depending.

I don't know the Tacx personally. Appears lighter in construction than the Park. Again, some good, some bad to that.


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

Why on earth would you want one anyway?


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

PigmyRacer said:


> Why on earth would you want one anyway?


Uhhhh to work on bikes???

Had one similar to the new PBS stand for a while (like years) IF you have round tubes of a certain dia or smaller, it works great. If you have funky shaped tubes and/or way oversized downtubes it isn't so bueno.

Now, the Euro stands get around that by clamping to the BB and fork tips, which makes pretty much everything irrelevant. 

Having said that, I'd go with an Ultimate or the PBS G3. Rotating the bike around so you can get at the bars or BB without unstrapping it is nice.

M


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Prs 20*



danl1 said:


> ...I have a Park 20, and know someone that has the 21. Good stuff, very sturdy. The 20 is a tank. Means it won't move around easily, which is either a good or bad thing, depending...


Been extremely happy with mine. It rarely leaves the garage so the tank feature is good. I like the idea that there are no concerns about crushed/scratched tubes. Rarely do I even use the BB strap as it is plenty stable as is. Height adjustment and rotation are easy. One problem is you cannot get it low enough to wrap handlebar tape. I just move it over near the step in the garage and by standing on the step I am the right height. I also removed the plastic knob that locks the support bar and replaced it with a set screw for better clearance.


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

I can see buying a bb mount stand if you have a frame with oddly shaped tubes, but for someone with regular round tubed frames, I can't imagine any benefits. Having worked in a shop I can also say that I've never seen a single mechanic worry about clamping a carbon frame with traditional clamps. As long as you use discretion you aren't going to do any damage. With my ultimate stand, you just pick the bike up and push the clamp closed to make an adjustment. Taking my wheel off, lifting the entire bike then clamping it is not my idea of quick and easy.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

PigmyRacer said:


> I can see buying a bb mount stand if you have a frame with oddly shaped tubes, but for someone with regular round tubed frames, I can't imagine any benefits. Having worked in a shop I can also say that I've never seen a single mechanic worry about clamping a carbon frame with traditional clamps. As long as you use discretion you aren't going to do any damage. With my ultimate stand, you just pick the bike up and push the clamp closed to make an adjustment. Taking my wheel off, lifting the entire bike then clamping it is not my idea of quick and easy.


Before I used one I thought much the same way. 

I've seen bikes on the sales floor at the with dented (i.e. ruined) top tubes from un-worried but extremely stupid mechanics, and shared a pint or two with a shop owner lamenting a ruined customer's Colnago. Now, these could have been avoided by clamping to a seatpost (which unbalances things or hangs at an odd angle) or simply by greater care, but with a team stand, the problem is completely gone. 

Look at it this way. Park developed it's stand at the request of the Disco mechanics. Those guys are kinda experts, and they're often in something of a hurry. 

There aren't many things you do to a bike that you don't want at least one wheel off for, and usually want the front end locked. By the time you do whatever you choose to hold the wheel in place, you can just flip the skewer and take it off. 

"... lifting the entire bike then clamping it is not my idea of quick and easy." What part of that don't you do with any stand, less a couple of pounds of wheel weight for these stands? It's also incredibly convenient to be able to spin the bike around as you work on it. 

My personal drawback for these is that a normal stand like an Ultimate is better and easier for cleaning operations.


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## Bicycle019 (Sep 20, 2002)

I have been using a very similar style Blackburn stand here at home for many years. These style of stands are good for routine drivetrain work and cleaning, are easy to transport if you travel a lot, but lack in a few areas for complete bicycle work.

They are not so good for building a bike from a frame up as any press fit headset install/head tube facing work is next to impossible. Also any headset maintenance is not so much fun as you seperate the fork from the frame. Additionally any front brake adjustment requires you to remove the bike from the stand and hold it up yourself while you try to make the adjustments. That seems kind of against the point when it comes to having a stand where you are doing so much stuff without the assistance of the workstand. These problems are magnified if you do much mountain bike work as well as you spend more time removing suspension forks for maintenance.

This type of stand has it's place in the market, but keep in mind that it's not going to offer all the advantages of a traditional stand that clamps the frame or seatpost.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

We're talking about these:..........................and *Not* these:










The Blackburn model is like the one on the right. To my knowledge, Blackburn has never made one like those on the left.

These are not the units that hold the BB and the down tube. They hold by the bb and either the fork ends or the rear dropouts. There's even a pulley to keep the chain in place for drivetrain cleaning operations. 

To do front-end work, you pull the rear wheel and attach the bike using the rear dropouts. Holds things _better _than a traditional stand for headset work.


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

Anybody inexperienced enough to try and clamp a bike by its toptube could probably find a way to damage the dropouts putting it onto a dropout-mount stand, and if not they would find a way to damage it while working on it  

I find it somewhat amusing that you've latched on to Park's marketing. I have no idea, and I suspect neither do you, how much discovery used those stands and when something breaks they give the rider a new bike so I don't know where you get the idea that they are always in a hurry fixing stuff. 

I'm pretty short so I keep my stand fairly low. I only need to lift my bike up about a foot to clamp it by the seat post (which is not unbalanced at all by the way) whereas I would need to lift it about 3 feet to put it in the euro style stand.


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## Bicycle019 (Sep 20, 2002)

danl1 said:


> We're talking about these:..........................and *Not* these:


I know what we're talking about here.



danl1 said:


> The Blackburn model is like the one on the right. To my knowledge, Blackburn has never made one like those on the left.


Really? I have one in my garage right now. See pic below.



danl1 said:


> These are not the units that hold the BB and the down tube. They hold by the bb and either the fork ends or the rear dropouts. There's even a pulley to keep the chain in place for drivetrain cleaning operations.


I am familiar w/the Park unit, I know how they work, thank you.



danl1 said:


> To do front-end work, you pull the rear wheel and attach the bike using the rear dropouts. Holds things _better _than a traditional stand for headset work.


But how do you work on the bike w/no fork or wheel as when building up a frame? It's still not perfect and I do prefer to use a conventional stand as it seems like more effort to flip the frame around each time you want to work on one end of the bike or the other. And I agree w/the other poster that any hack can ruin a frame if care is not taken when using almost any type of stand.

I think the new Park stands are kind of trendy now as they got the Disco seal of approval and they seem more "euro". That does not mean they are a better stand. Any stroll through the service area at most races will tell you what style is preferred.

Here is my 10+ year old Blackburn. It travels great as the legs are stored in the main body when not in use. It's really light and ends up in my car when I'm road tripping w/the bike. I have nothing against these types of stands, but also having worked in the back of many bike shops over the years, nothing beats a conventional stand IMHO.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

PigmyRacer said:


> Anybody inexperienced enough to try and clamp a bike by its toptube could probably find a way to damage the dropouts putting it onto a dropout-mount stand, and if not they would find a way to damage it while working on it
> 
> I find it somewhat amusing that you've latched on to Park's marketing. I have no idea, and I suspect neither do you, how much discovery used those stands and when something breaks they give the rider a new bike so I don't know where you get the idea that they are always in a hurry fixing stuff.
> 
> I'm pretty short so I keep my stand fairly low. I only need to lift my bike up about a foot to clamp it by the seat post (which is not unbalanced at all by the way) whereas I would need to lift it about 3 feet to put it in the euro style stand.


I'm not sure if everyone is aware of this or not, but clamping a TT or seatpost does not necessarily mean clamping with tube crushing force. Depending on what is being done to the bike, clamping a TT is perfectly fine if you do it correctly. If you can't do it correctly, you shouldn't be working on your own bike anyway.


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

Key word there being IF. As between clamping the top tube and the seat tube, I think you would agree that the ST would be better as it is internally braced by the seat post.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

PigmyRacer said:


> Key word there being IF. As between clamping the top tube and the seat tube, I think you would agree that the ST would be better as it is internally braced by the seat post.


Sure it is, but the Earth won't stop rotating and a bike won't disintegrate if the TT is clamped properly. Whether a traditional work stand or the Euro type stands are better is purely a matter of personal preference.


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

Ultimate Pro - it's lite easy to use - very portable (you don't have to remove any legs and it folds up into it;s own bag quickly) - gives you a multitude of positions to work on your bike with - you have to really try hard to clamp your bike to the point of tube failure (that's pretty ridiculous to even conceive of with an Ultimate because the clamp mechanism slides to the clamp area on the bike which alone gives almost enough force to hold the bike - like I say you have to try really hard to break something).

Further we are talking about lifting probably no more than 20 pounds here - 30 if a mountain bike. 

So who says it's easier to always remove a front wheel than to lift a lightweight bike off the ground for ten seconds maybe?

As mentioned above some fork / headset work is hard to do on the Park. 

I think Park's have their place but for overall versatility the lightweight tripod's are better.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

I'll be darned. Forgot about that product. Given the choice between that and a conventional stand, you are absolutely right. That has a lot of shortcomings. It's also not a valid basis for comparison, as it differs considerably from the products currently being discussed.

On a proper team stand, there are two QR's - one for forks, another wider one for rear drop outs. If you want to hook on a bare frame or do front-end work, it goes on the other way around, with the rear drops where the fork normally goes. Works perfectly well. I've repeated it, you copied it, you claim to know how they work, yet it's perfectly obvious that you don't understand or know, as you don't have a clue how they hold a bare frame. The only thing you can't do on one of these stands is screw on the BB cable guide, and I've never known anyone to willingly do that while in a clamp stand, either. 

I purchased an Ultimate, loved it, had no problems with it. I was given the Park later as a gift. Much more sturdy, much more stable in use, nearly all risks eliminated. I would have kept the Ultimate around for the few times it is better / easier to use, but someone else had better need for it than I. If I had preferred the Ultimate after using both, I would have given the Park away instead. There have been an awful lot of opinions voiced in this thread that don't benefit from actual experience with the item being discussed. I'm not saying that I made the same choice you might have, only that for me and the situations I face, I have a preference.

The 'anyone that would screw up a top tube would screw up a dropout' argument is silly. One thing often missed is that even if you clamp with appropriate pressures, torques from working will multiply through the distance of the frame, increasing the chances of mucking a frame unless it's connected by a sacrificial seatpost. For things like BB or headset work, it's a very real danger. And seatpost connection isn't a terrific answer, as it either unbalances the stand or results in odd working angles. If you are hosing off a bike or trying to smooth the shifting, a clamp stand is perfectly fine. For actual wrenching, it has some drawbacks.

The 'Look in the back of a shop' argument is a false one. Those are bolted to the floor (or have big heavy floor plates) with well-organized working space all around, so the issues that are important with portable stands simply don't apply. For a shop that has to deal with cruisers, BMX, MTB, tandems, and everything else under the sun, and where a tube _not _made of gas pipe is a relative rarity, clamps are obviously the way to go. On the other hand, I know at least two shops (ones that deal exclusively in custom and high-end road bikes) that have replaced their clamp stands with this sort of thing. 

The 'look around a race' argument is false as well. Raceday mechanics (as seen at the Saturday throwdowns we all are accustomed to) are concerned with minor quick tuneup sorts of things, not serious repairs. For as many people as you see using stands, you'll see twice that many hanging a bike by the saddle over a roof-rack bar. Does that mean that's the superior way to work on a bike? Meanwhile, show up at a race with decent pro / neutral support tents, and the percentages change considerably. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, but it's a decision a lot of experienced people have made.

'The Disco mechanics aren't in a hurry argument' is Just. Plain. Silly. Sure, they toss the guy on the road a new bike. Then after the race, they have to tear down, repair, clean, relube, reassemble, and adjust that bike, the one that failed, and every other bike that was ridden that day - and any that might be used the next day. Then, they have to make sure they have rubber up to date and pressure, pack it all up, act as mules for the rest of the squad, chase down the podium girls at the pub, and try somewhere in all of that to get some food and sleep. Nah, they use these because slower is better.  Truth is, I've seen them 'round once or twice, and they use both types of stands. Not marketing hype, not retro-grouch oversimplification, just use what works best for what's going on. The few times I've seen them, these appeared to be preferred. YMMV.

There is some truth to the complaint that you've gotta flip the bike around when working on opposite ends of things. But ya end up needing to fiddle with positions in clamp stands to some degree, too - just for different circumstances. These are more of a bother in that regard, but in my opinion, the benefits outweight the negatives. They don't fold as compactly and aren't as light as some others. Some seem to not like the working height, which is a fair enough complaint. I usually find it too low rather than too high, and though it stretches easily enough, it's hard to shrink steel. As for the balance argument, low work on a small bike vs high work on a large bike has a significant change in view there. Not saying one's right or wrong, just that circumstances change. Everyone has to make their own judgement as to the value on these items.

Forrest has it right - it's personal preference. Both have their place. Both can be used to good effect, both can be used to screw up a bike. Your opinons are yours, mine are mine, and we're all entitled to them. At least mine are based on experience with the products being discussed. Some others, not so much.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

danl1 said:


> One thing often missed is that even if you clamp with appropriate pressures, torques from working will multiply through the distance of the frame, increasing the chances of mucking a frame unless it's connected by a sacrificial seatpost. For things like BB or headset work, it's a very real danger. And seatpost connection isn't a terrific answer, as it either unbalances the stand or results in odd working angles. If you are hosing off a bike or trying to smooth the shifting, a clamp stand is perfectly fine. For actual wrenching, it has some drawbacks.


Nope. Again, if a person considers the work to be done and clamps appropriately, i.e. in the right position, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the ol' style workstands. The new ones are just different. Full stop.


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## Dan0930 (May 28, 2004)

Thanks for all the responses guys. I guess at this point I'm pretty sold on the park stand. 

I've used the top tube clamp style stand and they just feel like the center of gravity is so high that it makes it unstable. I don't have the space for a stand with a heavy base nor can i bolt it to a wall. 

As far as the euro style being a "trend" watch a sunday in hell. yup they are wrenching on this style stand. Anything that's been around that long has got to be the "better way" of doing things. Plus every pit image I see from a race has pro team wrenches working on homemade jobs of this style.


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

If every single shop I've ever been in and every single race I've ever been to didn't use regular clamp stands I would probably agree with you. Contrary to what you might think, most pro wrenches use regular shop duty stands except when working with oddly shaped bikes. Do whatever you want though.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Forrest Root said:


> Nope. Again, if a person considers the work to be done and clamps appropriately, i.e. in the right position, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the ol' style workstands. The new ones are just different. Full stop.


Having used both, I disagree.

Having seen frames destroyed by 'professional' wrenches because they 'knew' how to clamp a bike for what they were doing, I disagree.

For example, punch out a frozen headset. 

Old stand: It's perfectly safe if you dump in a crap seatpost and clamp to that. However, by clamping to a seatpost you are left with either working way outside of center (presenting not-optimal balance issues) or swinging the bike down to a better force center (but odd working position.) In either case, working that far away from the clamp makes things bounce terribly, removing power and accuracy from the work. Taking the pads off the clamp could help, but that's not a great plan. 

New stand: Dead solid, work positioned well, no compromises or concerns.

Not every example is that clear, and as I've said repeatedly, there are some places where clamps are the better choice. There's 'nothing wrong' with the old stands, but on balance, I have an easy preference.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

danl1 said:


> Having used both, I disagree.
> 
> Having seen frames destroyed by 'professional' wrenches because they 'knew' how to clamp a bike for what they were doing, I disagree.
> 
> ...


Reread the part where I mention the right position and appropriate clamping. Part of proper position and clamping is knowing what procedures are best done out of the stand. There is nothing superior about the Euro stands. Any thoughts of superiority are opinion only.

As Confucius said, _]b]"You have to be smarter than the tool.[/b]_


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## Marz (May 14, 2006)

Even clamping the sacrificial seatpost is a problem. If you are tightening a BB and the post is in the thin walled seat tube imagine the levering force going on in there.
I bought a bb cradle stand from a guy who makes custom steel frames, Darrell McCulloch of Llewelyn frames. He has wrenched for Olympic and Commonwealth Games squads and he absolutely abhors clamp-style stands. I do most of my own wrenching and am concerned about having a rear derailleur hanger straightened after a fall because the shop I intend to use has nothing but clamp stands. Who knows how many frames have inadvertantly been compromised and crack later in their lives that shouldn't have because they have been assembled on clamp stands?


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## Rubi13 (Sep 6, 2007)

Marz said:


> Even clamping the sacrificial seatpost is a problem. If you are tightening a BB and the post is in the thin walled seat tube imagine the levering force going on in there.


...x2


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

Marz said:


> Even clamping the sacrificial seatpost is a problem. If you are tightening a BB and the post is in the thin walled seat tube imagine the levering force going on in there.
> I bought a bb cradle stand from a guy who makes custom steel frames, Darrell McCulloch of Llewelyn frames. He has wrenched for Olympic and Commonwealth Games squads and he absolutely abhors clamp-style stands. I do most of my own wrenching and am concerned about having a rear derailleur hanger straightened after a fall because the shop I intend to use has nothing but clamp stands. Who knows how many frames have inadvertantly been compromised and crack later in their lives that shouldn't have because they have been assembled on clamp stands?


I've been working on bikes a LONG time and have YET to see anything that would suggest that you sitting on the bike puts less strain on the frame than tweaking the rear der. hanger.

BUT its yer bike, use whatcha want. 

M


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

Marz said:


> Who knows how many frames have inadvertantly been compromised and crack later in their lives that shouldn't have because they have been assembled on clamp stands?


I'd bet none. Believe it or not, there is a reason why shops use clamp stands.


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## Rubi13 (Sep 6, 2007)

PigmyRacer said:


> I'd bet none. Believe it or not, there is a reason why shops use clamp stands.


but there are people, that even work in shops, that don't know how to use them correctly,


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## Davoosie (Mar 17, 2007)

My friend has the Tacx stand, its looks pretty nice, although I haven't seen the park stands to compare them too in person. If I had to get one sigh unseen I might go with the Tacx.


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

Its not exactly rocket science. Someone who can't clamp a frame without damaging it probably shouldn't be trusted to work on the rest of the bike anyway.


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## mtpisgah (Jan 28, 2004)

*I have both*

I have a Park shop stand with the 60lb base plate and one of the Euro stands. I love the shop stand because it holds a bike very securely and because I can rotate the clamp so the front wheel is high, low or level. It is convenient for shifter adjustments and wrappind handlebars. I don't like it however because I ride 49-50 cm bikes and the amount of seatpost sticking out is amount 1cm shy of being able to be clamped. I could adjust the seatpost but it is a pain getting it back to the exact height (even if taped). I bought a Park euro stand partly for that reason and because I needed a stand to take to races. For a while I used the shop stand for my wife's bikes and our mountain bikes but now I almost exculsively use the euro stand.

When using the shop stand though I never worried about clamping too hard. If you are careful and know what you are doing, there is no danger of damaging the frame or seatpost. Carelessness is what damages bikes.


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## Marz (May 14, 2006)

PigmyRacer said:


> I'd bet none. Believe it or not, there is a reason why shops use clamp stands.


And what would that reason be? I wonder what framemakers think. As I said before, one framemaker thinks it's wrong, and this guy's bikes are highly sought after and respected.

After a few repairs in different bike shops, I don't have a lot of respect for shop mechanics anyway.

Also, as previously mentioned, in the film 'A Sunday In Hell' the opening scene shows the mechanic cleaning and adjusting Moser's Benotto on a euro style stand. That was in the 70s, so they've been around at least that long.

Believe it or not, there is a reason why race mechanics use euro style stands.


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## PigmyRacer (Oct 3, 2007)

Have you been to a race? Either pro or local? Do you have any idea how few bb support stands you see?


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## Art853 (May 30, 2003)

The Park PRS 20 is more compact, both when in use and stored, than many of the seat post clamp stands. That's a big benefit for those living and working in small apartments and spaces.


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