# Running for cyclists?



## soulfly_nyc

Hi,

I am interested to know if running has any benefits for competitive cyclists. Would running for 40 minutes a week be a replacement for a 1h20m zone 2 ride?

Some info about me:
Cat 3
168lbs
FTP 320w

My challenge is in losing weight, and i would like to get my FTP to 330-340w for the next season. I may be close to the FTP goal already, haven't tested since last winter.


----------



## bikerjulio

It's funny. When I was a runner we used to hear about "cross training". In all my time in cycling, I've never heard of running as being good training. Only perhaps when conditions are too bad to ride. Maybe "core" exercises, and I have a friend who swears by yoga. 

So though having done both running and cycling, and for a brief painful period done both, my feeling is that running does not help. Unless you are into tri, of course.  But that's a whole other thing.


----------



## redlizard

My coach enthusiastically discourages running, saying it will keep me from becoming the best cyclist I can be. I'm sure he's right, but I sneak them in anyway, since I'm really a runner with a cycling problem. Specificity seems to be the key argument against it and anything not cycling specific would seem to be NOT the best use of limited time & energy.


----------



## tidi

*my thought*

is that if you are a 'lean' cyclist there is every chance you may increase your weight a little due to an increase in muscle density due to the impact of running. i've heard that each strike can be around 5 x your body weight, so you could imagine the development required to be 'conditioned' for running.
i run 2 x 40min sessions per week and have gained leg strength and i have found this beneficial for cycling. albeit i don't race nor do i spend lots of hours riding as we have 15month old twins.
if energy conservation is of high importance to give 100% to cycling, running may tire you too much????


----------



## teddysaur

Yeah, i find running helps me at

1. Climb standing
2. Breathing Rhythm
3. Longer duration at Threshold

But it won't help you increase your FTP by much. If you really want to lose weight, you need to run longer than 40mins.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST

I wouldn't suggest running as a way to improve cycling fitness. 

It is however a good way to help with managing any potential bone mineral density issues.


----------



## dot

A. Krasnov, the first coach of I. Kalentieva promotes xc running for xc (and purportedly for cx) racing in mild doses.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM

Well some running for XC or CX races makes sense since they sometimes need to run up hills. How often do cyclists get off their bikes and run though?


----------



## Hank Stamper

Compared to nothing it'll have some benefits but that doesn't make it an efficient use of one's time.

If you're just looking for a change of pace off the bike for a 40 min workout.......cross country skiing or skating is much better. (either on ice or roller blades)


----------



## dot

Hank Stamper said:


> Compared to nothing it'll have some benefits but that doesn't make it an efficient use of one's time.
> 
> If you're just looking for a change of pace off the bike for a 40 min workout.......cross country skiing or skating is much better. (either on ice or roller blades)



running is most effective way to spend time exercising. It takes no more time than just getting out and go running. Getting to an xc skiing course takes time and getting ready to ski takes time plues skis need some time to get them ready, for me it's 1-1.5 hours one way and 20-40 min for skis. Getting to a skating rink takes time, getting dressed for skating takes time and so on.

Running and cycling (indoor in particular!) are the cheapest sports timewise.


----------



## Hank Stamper

dot said:


> running is most effective way to spend time exercising. It takes no more time than just getting out and go running. Getting to an xc skiing course takes time and getting ready to ski takes time plues skis need some time to get them ready, for me it's 1-1.5 hours one way and 20-40 min for skis. Getting to a skating rink takes time, getting dressed for skating takes time and so on.
> 
> Running and cycling (indoor in particular!) are the cheapest sports timewise.


Good lord. Aside from missing the point the other funny part is suggesting indoor cycling as you're contridicting yourself. Unless you think everyone has an indoor track in their back yard.


----------



## soulfly_nyc

What about the calorie burning aspect of running? 

If i am trying to lose weight would a 60 minute running session 1x per week help?

Also, what about running with the treadmill on an incline to emphasize more cyclist-specific muscles?


----------



## dot

Hank Stamper said:


> Good lord. Aside from missing the point the other funny part is suggesting indoor cycling as you're contridicting yourself. Unless you think everyone has an indoor track in their back yard.


when I run I just get out of my block of flats and go running, no need for any track. When I go riding I just get out and ride. Running is fun and distraction from cycling for those who can cope with it. I can't, I ride rollers.


----------



## Hank Stamper

soulfly_nyc said:



> What about the calorie burning aspect of running?
> 
> If i am trying to lose weight would a 60 minute running session 1x per week help?
> 
> Also, what about running with the treadmill on an incline to emphasize more cyclist-specific muscles?


You should be able to google calorie burn rates for running and other things. They won't be accurate at all on an absolute basis because if varies greatly from person to person but for purposes of comparing one activity to another the info will be good enough.


----------



## orlin03

soulfly_nyc said:


> What about the calorie burning aspect of running?
> 
> If i am trying to lose weight would a 60 minute running session 1x per week help?
> 
> Also, what about running with the treadmill on an incline to emphasize more cyclist-specific muscles?


As much as I hate it, I get a lot of my workouts through the treadmill in the winter. I find the most effective method for both fitness and time-conservation is to use lots of varying incline. Taking it up to 15% for intervals helps strengthen the hips, quads, and calves, lowers the impact, and burns more calories than you can imagine. Recover and repeat, just like you would do for a bike workout; you may find 20-30 minutes of this gives better results than 60 minutes of regular "treadmilling".


----------



## harpon

What's your racing schedule like and level of experience and seriousness?

If you are years into racing and going fulltime, and migrating to warm areas or living there to race and train- running probably isn't time that well spent.

But if you are just starting- or a club rider or live in a colder climate- running can be really great if you ENJOY it. 

it's great for aerobic cardio-vascular fitness- great for climbing, on a bicycle, but may not do much for that budding match sprinter.

I always liked to be riding better, and ended up finally quitting Cross Country and Track in high school over it-
but that was long ago and I was glad I had that training base.


----------



## black_box

soulfly_nyc said:


> If i am trying to lose weight would a 60 minute running session 1x per week help?


Be careful when you transition from biking to running. Your cardio will transfer over somewhat but your bones, joints, and muscles will need time to adapt to the impact. Start with short runs and build up slowly.


----------



## Dynastar

Steve,

I hope all is well. Glad to see that you moved up to Cat 3. As a sample of 1, I usually lose a few pounds cycling, but I need to run to really get the weight off. Last year, because of a foot injury, I did not run at all. And the weight never came off, even though I was riding a lot and probably the fastest I have ever been -with the obvious exception of climbing. (One of the reasons I did not race MTBs with the guys) Good thing the majority of my rides have been on LI. 

Again, for me, I find that running helps my cycling mainly because it helps me lose/ keep weight off. It also gives me a mental break, especially when I am training a lot. But it is not going to help you increase your power, may even reduce it a bit if you miss a key workouts to run. However, assuming you lose weight, your power/weight ratio will be better and that in itself will make you faster. Plus, as mentioned before, it will help build bone strength.

To give you a little piece of mind. I was reading an article in Cycle Sport over the summer and the trainer for bBox requires her athletes to run.

Chris


----------



## singlespeedbuss

Try it for a month and see for yourself. I started running 1-2 times a week for 30 minutes each time, about 500 feet of elevation gain over 3 miles. Has increased my cardiovascular fitness and my climbing is much better on my bike. Just get some good comfortable running shoes and start out easy as your legs could get really sore if not used to the running-impact thing. Tri people are animals and they do it all. Lance runs and you know how he did 7 times and almost an 8th.


----------



## Hughsdad

I think it depends on your goals. For the OP, as others have said, I don't think it will do much for his FTP, because of specificity. On the other hand, I'm a great believer in cross training, for many reasons, some of which have been mentioned:

-bone density, a real issue for cyclists
-weight loss. The body & its fat storage likes routine, is my armchair understanding. Mixing it up with variety, throwing in training that your body must adapt to, can prompt greater weight loss. 
-variety 
-general athleticism
-training partners. Often different ones than I might ride with.
-time/convenience. A run workout, or calisthenics, yoga, a trip to the gym, etc. can often be fit in when a ride cannot, for whatever reason. 

As for comparing running and cycling, I think I've read in various places that running roughly equates with cycling at a 1:3 or 1:4 ratio. In other words, a 10K run would approximately equal 30-40K on the bike.


----------



## atimido

If you're concerned about bone density, you should read this article and pay close attention to the last few paragraphs. There is some good discussion about what you are taking-in during your ride, and who really should be concerned about bone density issues. 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/is-bicycling-bad-for-your-bones/

While I am not a big fan of running, I do like to do some other types of workouts when I am not riding my bike. Some exercises I do include pull-ups, pushups, lunges with two 35lb free-weights, and squats/step-ups with the 35lb weights.

I would also note that in terms of running, my friend and I have just started riding together again since last October. He spent most of his time training for a marathon over the past few months and has stayed off his bike, while I spent my time riding the exercise bike, doing my workout above, and riding my rollers. We have ridden together twice this month, and both times I have dropped him pretty bad. The first time he did well, but lost a lot of endurance after a small climb. Yesterday, we did a 60 mile ride and it got to the point where we needed to slow down significantly so he could make it home. I'm not saying that running isn't good for you, but I'm not sure it is going to help your cycling ability any. I would also agree that you are definitely not going to burn as many calories running, as you would riding a bike on an indoor trainer or rollers for a similar period of time.


----------



## redlizard

atimido said:


> I would also agree that you are definitely not going to burn as many calories running, as you would riding a bike on an indoor trainer or rollers for a similar period of time.


I think you got this backwards. You definitely *will* burn more calories running than you will riding a bike for any given amount of time. Depending on your pace, fitness and ability, you can burn up to 50% more calories when running vs. cycling. You generally don't run for nearly as long, so you might burn more calories on a training ride, but you won't burn more per hour.


----------



## Hughsdad

atimido: thanks for the link. I take calcium daily, but maybe I should be adding it to my training fluids.


----------



## atimido

redlizard said:


> I think you got this backwards. You definitely *will* burn more calories running than you will riding a bike for any given amount of time. Depending on your pace, fitness and ability, you can burn up to 50% more calories when running vs. cycling. You generally don't run for nearly as long, so you might burn more calories on a training ride, but you won't burn more per hour.


Oh, I'm sure as long as you don't run at a turtle's pace like I do.


----------



## Oasisbill

Cycling is best for me because I enjoy it immensely. It is an addiction. I hate running. It bores me and it hurts my knees. A close friend of mine runs marathons and is addicted to it. He has never ridden a bike. What I'm trying to say is that the best way to lose weight is to find what you love and do it. If you like running then it may be good to mix it up during the week purely for some variety. Id say (roughly) that reaching a percentage of your Vo2 max in any discipline for the same amount of time will be an equivalent workout as far as losing weight is concerned. One will be a higher impact though. My 2c...


----------



## Kai Winters

I run during the winter months when the roads are too messy for riding. Running works for cardio and isn't too bad for keeping muscles in decent shape but is not a replacement for bike training.
I also enjoy the difference and change of pace.


----------



## hrumpole

It is amazing what simply 30 minutes at a brisk walk on the steepest treadmill incline (15% @ the gym) will do to your heart rate. At least for me.


----------



## Hughsdad

Oasisbill said:


> Cycling is best for me because I enjoy it immensely. It is an addiction. I hate running. It bores me and it hurts my knees. A close friend of mine runs marathons and is addicted to it. He has never ridden a bike. What I'm trying to say is that the best way to lose weight is to find what you love and do it. If you like running then it may be good to mix it up during the week purely for some variety. Id say (roughly) that reaching a percentage of your Vo2 max in any discipline for the same amount of time will be an equivalent workout as far as losing weight is concerned. One will be a higher impact though. My 2c...


Well-said.


----------



## Vayinafash

I do not race. Last year I found that running helped my cycling - it seemed that it built up my cardiovascular system - I was able to sustain better when cycling. I do not know for racing, but for a regular cyclist, I think running and cycling is a good mix. I was in the best shape when I was doing both. I did shorten my rides, but increased intensity. I enjoy running (used to hate it). Once a week I would run after a 17 mile ride with a few hills. Running in the winter also keeps the lungs in shape - we usually mountain bike in the winter, but there is too much snow this year.


----------



## BassNBrew

I ended my tri season late last August. Took September off. Between Oct 1 and Jan 10 I did 100 runs in 100 days and bike once a week for an hour. In late December my FTP was already back to the same level as it was last summer. After 6 weeks of hour long interval sessions on the bike and one add'l ride every other week I'm ahead of where I was at last summer on the bike. It may not be for everybody, but running has lead to significant gains for me.


----------



## BassNBrew

I ended my tri season late last August. Took September off. Between Oct 1 and Jan 10 I did 100 runs in 100 days and bike once a week for an hour. In late December my FTP was already back to the same level as it was last summer. After 6 weeks of hour long interval sessions on the bike and one add'l ride every other week I'm ahead of where I was at last summer on the bike. It may not be for everybody, but running has lead to significant gains for me.


----------



## glen campbell

BassNBrew said:


> I ended my tri season late last August. Took September off. Between Oct 1 and Jan 10 I did 100 runs in 100 days and bike once a week for an hour. In late December my FTP was already back to the same level as it was last summer. After 6 weeks of hour long interval sessions on the bike and one add'l ride every other week I'm ahead of where I was at last summer on the bike. It may not be for everybody, but running has lead to significant gains for me.


 i agree with you, running can be benifical to cycling.


----------



## SantaCruzn

1) Buy proper footwear. Your best bet will be to visit a store that caters to hardcore runners. Tell them your goals, background, etc. The better shops will also be able to check your gait. If you happen to overpronate or supinate, I STRONGLY advise you to address those issues with self myofascial release/stretching of overactive muscles and strengthening of underactive muscles. In my experience, those who disregard this and simply buy some supports to place inside the shoes eventually run into more problems down the road (pun intended).

2) Warm up properly. Unlike riding, you do not have the luxury to spin first in an easy gear. One option is to start by walking and allow the muscles, connective tissue, synovial fluid to warm up. Then ramp up gradually.

3) Avoid or minimize running on concrete or asphalt UNLESS you plan on competitive road running/tris. For those in colder climates, a good option this time of year might be the treadmill (the temps and other variables are controllable). Just keep in mind that treadmill work is generally easier (you are running in place while the "ground" is rolling beneath you; this is easier that actually propelling yourself forward). Another great surface is grass at your local park. 

4) Know the difference in foot strike technique for middle/long distance and sprinting. If you happen to be a heel striker (most people are), get out of that habit. 

5) A popular misconception is that short runs are of little to no benefit when it comes to power output/fitness/body comp. Let me assure you: focused 4X40 sprints up hill, prowler work, etc. (the variations are endless) will change your opinion. Unless you aspire to be skinny AND fat at the same time, marathon runners are not the best role models.

6) If your priority is cycling, do NOT feel obligated to run unless you enjoy it or you notice a benefit to your health and performance. There are other ways to cross train effectively. Regardless of your decision, be advised that any extra activity outside that of your chosen sport absolutely will tap into a finite amount of resource. It's up to each individual to decide how much time and energy to invest to reach his respective goal. 

7) Like all repetitive acts, runners are vulnerable to their own set of injuries. The fundamentals should never be ignored in this or any other type of training.

Andy


----------



## piette

Up until last year I was a cyclist only. My 9 year old daughter wanted me to run a 5K with her that benefited Leukemai research (my mother and grandfather both passed away of Leukemai). So I took up running early last year. I had without doubt, the biggest gains in cycling I have ever had. The running added monsterous amounts to my cardio and enduarnace performances, and also my abitity to climb went up expotentially. I can say without dobt it was due to the running.

After I realized I enjoy running, I decided to try a few triathlons and duathlons. One single thing I picked up on at every one of them was runners that dont cycle can jump on a bike and be really fast, cyclists that don't run can't generally can't run worth a crap. Case in point. I was at the pre-race meeting for a duathlon last fall, a woman standing next to me was asking me how hard the bike course was (32 miles, rolling hills) and said she had just purchased her first bicycle the previous weekend. She thought she could just put it in one gear and be fine the whole course. So I gave her a few pointers and told her good luck. She ended up on the stage at the end which shocked me, turns out she is a multi-marathon winner, and literally blew me away on the cycle portion of it, I think she averaged around 26 mph over 32 miles and drafting is absolutely not allowed.

I will disagree with anyone that says running is not beneficial to a cyclist. Running works a completely diffrent set of muscles in your legs, in diffrent ways. It absolutely does benefit me immensely in my cycling. As it has every other runner I have seen that decides to pick up cycling.

As it was said, in running the potential for injury is much greater, so you really have to be pretty careful about how you do it.

Jeff


----------



## clayton.cole23

-cut and paste- The Specificity Principle simply states that training must go from highly general training to highly specific training. The principle of Specificity also implies that to become better at a particular exercise or skill, you must perform that exercise or skill. To be a good cyclist, you must cycle. The point to take away is that a runner should train by running and a swimmer should train by swimming -cut and paste-

If you want to make it to CAT 2, don’t run, bike. But be more specific is what you do during each ride. There are 1,000s of programs out there but they all usually have these elements.

Per training cycle you should (7-10 days)
- Long rides at easy pace (sing Will Smith getting jiggy with it all ride)
- Long rides at tempo (harder to sing but can joke with bob the 60yr old machine)
- Threshold intervals (3 to 6min hard efforts that you can hold for an hour) with equal rest. Do as many as you can do but always leave with one more in the bucket 
- Max VO2 30sec-90sec freaking balls to walls gut checks. With full rest. Do about 10-20 of these. 
- Proper Rest, Proper rest, Proper rest. 

I’m sure many can disagree/agree with my formula but I find it hard to believe that any high level athlete/coach will find the Specificity Principle hard to argue. As for as Lance running, come-on it’s Lance. The dude is at a different level than 99% of the world. 

I’ve been pretty successful running (15:25 5k in college, 18:21 now at 33), and currently a successful cyclist (No idea what CAT I would be but pretty strong racer here in northern Italy). When I am my highest level one always hurts the other. I’ve coached running and always discouraged anything but running (pending no injury). I followed that same principles in cycling and low and behold I keep gaining. Now that I’m older rest is as important as hard efforts. 

My 2c.


----------



## Lazy Spinner

Running is outstanding for off-season conditioning and for weight loss. Key phrase: off-season.


----------



## lozroadie

Running 2-3 times a week definitely improved my cycling. I ran all winter and lost weight not gained. My climbing is much better and I am stronger and lighter than any past year. I find that i can get in a good workout in a lot less time running than I can on the bike, and I can comfortably run in much cooler temps. 45 minutes before work allows me to get in a good workout (5 minute warm 30 minute run 5 min. cool down walk and 5 minutes to stretch). I find this to be a pretty effective workout. I can not get as effective of a workout before work on the bike as it takes me 30 minutes to get good and warmed up and the extra time of loading and unloading the bike. You can get injured much easier running. That being said if my primary purpose for riding a bike was to race I would limit in season running due to the risk of injury and running does tend to slow my cycling cadence down to my running cadence of 85 rpm


----------



## bradXism

I didn't read all of the posts so forgive me if I make some of the same statements. I came from an extensive running background, although I have always ridden a bike, I took up racing and triathlons when the running ('career?) was over. The above points about bodily wear and tear are valid. Bigger people should not put in a lot of time.
My running background made the transition to racing very quickly. Although it pertains to racing, I found that cycling was a little detrimental to my running and running intervals def helped my bike especially for short efforts at the top end as for endurance not so much.


----------



## sikabk

I ran everything from a mile to 50 miles competitively in my youth...the amount of force your knees take is tremendous, would not recommend it as training for a pure cyclist. And casual jogging or just racking up miles has no value to a racer unless it's a cool down.


----------



## V3T

piette said:


> I think she averaged around 26 mph over 32 miles and drafting is absolutely not allowed.


Really..? I think that is pretty much unheard of for females. She should be contacting HTC for a contract if that is true.


----------



## PunkOi

What about for jumping rope or strair climbing ?


----------



## V3T

Jumping rope and stair climbing will help with cardiovascular endurance and weight loss to a point, just like running. But I firmly believe that if you want to become a stronger and faster cyclist, you need to ride to build biking muscles.


----------



## moabbiker

If you live in hilly areas, run hard uphill then walk it down or hitch a ride. Far less damage to knees but you get a brutal workout.


----------



## Alkan

soulfly_nyc said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am interested to know if running has any benefits for competitive cyclists. Would running for 40 minutes a week be a replacement for a 1h20m zone 2 ride?
> 
> Some info about me:
> Cat 3
> 168lbs
> FTP 320w
> 
> My challenge is in losing weight, and i would like to get my FTP to 330-340w for the next season. I may be close to the FTP goal already, haven't tested since last winter.


If you're trying to lose weight, pay more attention to what you're eating. I personally can drop 5 pounds in a week by dieting alone without exercise. You should be able to drop more weight without running.

However, if you like running, there's nothing wrong with running unless you're training I suppose.

EDIT: I also want to add that running is more intense than biking for your heart and lungs. When I bike I eventually reach a point where my legs fatigue before my heart and lungs do. With running it's the total opposite in the distances you'd want to cross train in. If you do hard 2 mile runs to 5k runs it'll do wonders for your heart and lungs and it won't shrink up your legs at all. Short to mid distance should be great, but I'd think that long distance might not be optimal for getting in shape for biking, which also means it's not good for weight loss if you're training on the bike.

Honestly, running at first might not be a bad idea since it will get your slow twitch muscles in better shape, and will get your cardiovascular system in quick shape. It would take less time to convert to cycling from running if you were already a good runner than if you didn't do any activities.

My brother ran cross country. Before he did, his mile time was 6:50ish. After 3 months in cross country it was 5:11. He then continued to do wrestling for a month or so, in which there is a lot of excruciating anaerobic training. He then proceeded to run up an 1100 ft mountain in 20 minutes. I'm certain that if he was in that condition right now he'd be able to get on a bike and go 30 miles much faster than I can.


----------



## redlude97

Alkan said:


> If you're trying to lose weight, pay more attention to what you're eating. I personally can drop 5 pounds in a week by dieting alone without exercise. You should be able to drop more weight without running.
> 
> However, if you like running, there's nothing wrong with running unless you're training I suppose.


Seeing as how 5lbs of fat is ~18,000 Cal, and the average active person burns ~17,500 calories/week. I doubt you are losing a healthy 5lbs by dieting alone in a week. Most likely the majority of that is water weight.


----------



## Alkan

Well, some of it's probably water weight, but I wasn't uncomfortable for that time period. I usually lose weight pretty quickly when I eat pretty normally. Dieting is very important to keeping the weight off if you're doing any endurance sport. Of course you have to fuel up, but don't over fuel up.


----------



## The_Maraquis_of_Carabas

hopefully selling my bike this weekend and might take a few weeks to replace. not looking forward to running whatseover to keep up the fitness. much harder on the musecles i find.


----------



## jarbiker

Of course running will benefit your cycling. Running is by far the best thing you can do to achieve cardiovascular fitness. There is nothing better. It is the most efficient method-meaning you don't have to spend as much time to achieve the same level of fitness. The fitter you are the more effort you can put into your cycling. Be careful though and make sure you don't injure your knees.


----------



## Alkan

You'll feel your shins before your knees, I've learned. I have injured my knees before when I run a short hard mile at a 6:23 pace. The damn knee swelled up to the size of a golfball. Stretch your knees slowly and carefully before each run so that this doesn't happen to you. They swelled up because I was kicking my feet way up in the air and basically tucking them up against my butt cheeks for a fast and efficient turnover.


----------



## Gervase

tidi said:


> is that if you are a 'lean' cyclist there is every chance you may increase your weight a little due to an increase in muscle density due to the impact of running. i've heard that each strike can be around 5 x your body weight, so you could imagine the development required to be 'conditioned' for running.
> i run 2 x 40min sessions per week and have gained leg strength and i have found this beneficial for cycling. albeit i don't race nor do i spend lots of hours riding as we have 15month old twins.
> if energy conservation is of high importance to give 100% to cycling, running may tire you too much????


Actually, I think this is flawed. The top bodybuilders WONT run, becuase it breaks down their hard won muscle. So that they can NOT get big, so they usually stationary cycle instead. Like you said the Jarring = 5x body weight. you don't see runners with big bodies, legs, unless they are sprinters.


----------



## tidi

Gervase said:


> Actually, I think this is flawed. The top bodybuilders WONT run, becuase it breaks down their hard won muscle. So that they can NOT get big, so they usually stationary cycle instead. Like you said the Jarring = 5x body weight. you don't see runners with big bodies, legs, unless they are sprinters.


Mm i ain't gonna argue but after a serious workout for a body builder recovery is of paramount importance just like with serious cyclists so either of these athletes would stairway from running.
My point is with your comment than muscle breaks down. im not sure how muscle breaks from exercise without some other degenerative condition.


----------



## PixelPaul

jarbiker said:


> Of course running will benefit your cycling. Running is by far the best thing you can do to achieve cardiovascular fitness. There is nothing better.


Yes there is - cross country skiing


----------



## hrumpole

I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that there are two parts of the equation: power and weight. The running never helped my cycling except to help me lose weight efficiently, so it works on the kg side of the equation. Now, if you're already lean, then the only thing that's going to help gain more power in cycling, it seems to me (esp @ that high an FTP), is trying to gain more power through cycling. That makes intuitive sense. 

But that may not always be true for the non-competitive cyclist. For a guy like myself, I would be a much better cyclist by running off 15 pounds, which is one of my goals for the winter. I could ride it off, but it would take more training time, so in my mind. I'd rather run and lift it off, and then take that general fitness and make it more specific over the winter. Not to say that I won't ride in the interim, but resolving general strength and flexibility issues will make me more able to go faster in the summer.

YMMV. Greatly.


----------



## ldotmurray

hrumpole said:


> I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that there are two parts of the equation: power and weight. The running never helped my cycling except to help me lose weight efficiently, so it works on the kg side of the equation. Now, if you're already lean, then the only thing that's going to help gain more power in cycling, it seems to me (esp @ that high an FTP), is trying to gain more power through cycling. That makes intuitive sense.
> 
> But that may not always be true for the non-competitive cyclist. For a guy like myself, I would be a much better cyclist by running off 15 pounds, which is one of my goals for the winter. I could ride it off, but it would take more training time, so in my mind. I'd rather run and lift it off, and then take that general fitness and make it more specific over the winter. Not to say that I won't ride in the interim, but resolving general strength and flexibility issues will make me more able to go faster in the summer.
> 
> YMMV. Greatly.


I agree 1000%. I'm a super Clyde who recently added personal fitness / personal training classes to my curriculum at school. My immediate goal is weight loss through proper nutrition and cardio / resistance training. Running is helping me get there better than riding.


----------



## Gervase

I think running may give you a better cardio quicker? but you surely can achieve as good a cardio on the bike. Also you can't really up the strength on running like you can in Cycling, that is to dial up a bigger gear, which makes you push harder. 
Cycling can also be more aerobic, by being able to spin, say 110-120 or more? so going the opposite way of pushing bigger gears. 
I still think too running is NOT good on the joints, at 56years and 90 kg (weights have left me with high bone densitiy and still some heavy muscle) I CANT run, it does hurt my knees, and don't want to set my self up for a hip replacement. 
I mentioned before about the jarring of the muscle, and that top body builders wont' do that because it breaks down muscle tissue. it also breaks down other tissue, and it used to be a thing in the 70's where machines would vibrate the fat of you, (does any one remember these?) 
Running may benefit younger people more? For me I can't consider it because of above, but I really think you can achieve the same thing, on the bike.


----------



## smoothie7

I want to start running so that I am better for cyclocross season  There is more running in those races than what you think. It's all about endurance


----------



## chuckice

running has been awesome for my biking....helps keep a winter engine that cycling never could.


----------



## Skimmy

*Tower running*

You said you have forty minutes to run.

Run two steps at a time up a 150 meter tower and take the elevator down.

Five minutes up, three minutes down.

Total of five repetitions.

You said your mass is about 77 kg with clothes. So, you would average about 377 watts on the ascents based only on moving your body to a higher elevation.

I bet it improves some aspects of your cycling.


----------



## Aggdaddy

I always knew running would be harder than cycling,but wow, did I realize it today. I tried to see how well i could tackle a six mile course. I am not a runner at all. Couldn't even do the 2 mile run for basic training 15 years ago, if I remember correctly is 15:45 for age 19? Missed it by 10 seconds on my best run.

Anyway, I cycle on a regular basis when time allows and can do about 16 to 17avg depending on traffic. Higher in group rides. I'll keep my heart rate about 155 to 160bpm on solo rides when I am not pushing. 

Today I tried to do some running just to keep the fitness up, Don't like riding in sub 60 temps. Just isn't enjoyable for me, My heart rate was jumping up to 170 pretty quick and my hips was bothering me. Does that mean I have a bad running form? Knees, doesn't bother me. Just my hips. I was walking funny for about four hours afterwards.

I am about 195 at 5'10"


----------



## Guest

Aggdaddy said:


> I always knew running would be harder than cycling,but wow, did I realize it today. I tried to see how well i could tackle a six mile course. I am not a runner at all. Couldn't even do the 2 mile run for basic training 15 years ago, if I remember correctly is 15:45 for age 19? Missed it by 10 seconds on my best run.
> 
> Anyway, I cycle on a regular basis when time allows and can do about 16 to 17avg depending on traffic. Higher in group rides. I'll keep my heart rate about 155 to 160bpm on solo rides when I am not pushing.
> 
> Today I tried to do some running just to keep the fitness up, Don't like riding in sub 60 temps. Just isn't enjoyable for me, My heart rate was jumping up to 170 pretty quick and my hips was bothering me. Does that mean I have a bad running form? Knees, doesn't bother me. Just my hips. I was walking funny for about four hours afterwards.
> 
> I am about 195 at 5'10"


I got into cycling after years of being a competitive runner. Even after no longer being competiive, I used to go on runs as my primary exercise and only rode a bike to get around town. This changed [ironically] when I injured my heel in a bike crash (slid out on sand in an intersection aftering sprinting to make a yellow light and slammed my heel into the tarmac). This prevented me from running for about 3 weeks but I was able to pedal pain free, so started cycling to keep my running fitness up and ended up never turning back... 

Due to the higher impact on joints associated with running, I think it requires a lot more gradual "buildup time" to get into running compared to cycling. Nowadays I go on runs on rain days to avoid frequent drivetrain cleanings (what can I say, I'm lazy...)

Last Christmas I went back home and went on some runs with my old friends from my college track team. Since I was in good aerobic shape and low weight from cycling I was able to keep up, buy my legs were ridiculously sore for days as a result because the muscle groups used in running and cycling are so different. I think this problem is especially bad if you're in good aerobic shape from cycling but your legs aren't used to pounding of running-- your lungs are able to carry you but your legs aren't used to it. IMO this is worse than starting running after being generally sedentary. In that you'll probably get winded and give up before you end up doing too much damage 

In the future I am looking into doing both running and cycling for fitness. I personally have find slow "walking" hikes boring unless I actually _run_ the trails -- allowing me to compress the sightseeing into less time and get a workout in. I'm not particularly interested in doing either competetiviely though.


----------



## frankdatank1337

PhotonFreak said:


> Due to the higher impact on joints associated with running, I think it requires a lot more gradual "buildup time" to get into running compared to cycling.


I would say the same to anyone who wants to get started in running from cycling. 
I personally run three times a week during the fall/winter and taper off to once a week during the spring/summer. I find that running in the "off season" keeps me fit and breaks up the workout routine so things don't get too tedious. Also, running is easier to do when visiting family on the holidays.


----------



## bytewalls

There are advantages and disadvantages to it. It is very easy to train your aerobic system running. So if your limiter is not the legs but getting oxygen to everything track workouts, and runs shorter than 5k can be miracle workers. Running is also much more painful muscularly in my opinion. I find that running 5ks and 10ks fast (races usually) teaches me how to suffer more than most things on the bike from a muscular pain perspective. You can also run in the dark safely! Huge advantage in my opinion for the time crunched athlete who hates bike trainers.

Disadvantages include destroyed knees, loss of specificity among others. Overall though I think that if utilized properly it can greatly improve your cycling.


----------



## Gervase

The "Jarring", is what breaks down the muscle, which is why top body builders will not run.


----------



## Gervase

I think cycling in big gears requires more strength than running, I think the pain that you may experience will be to do with the transferance of the impact through your muscle, you feel it every time you take big strides.
Riding in the dark? I use big lights, 900 lumens, problem solved, far safer.


----------



## Dr_John

I used to be a runner, quit, got way out of shape, then switched to cycling. I just started running again. I ride 8000-10000 miles a year so I don't need to run for exercise, and I don't run to improve my cycling. I do it because at my age, I really need to be doing some type of weight-bearing exercise.


----------



## goaliecyclist

I'm not sure if I am repeating anything from previous posts....

I have started 5km runs this month, in addition to my regular trainer sessions and playing ice hockey once a week. I have definitely noticed an improvement in my overall strength and conditiioning. Will it translate into better and more efficient cycling? Probably. I'm no doctor or expert, but I believe varied training will create a stronger and fitter body, rather than focusing on a single activity. I absolutely love cycling, but for my future fitness and to avoid repetitive-stress type injuries, I will work in a couple of runs a week to compliment my road cycling. 

Besides, a 40-min run is much easier to squeeze into an hour lunch at the office....


----------



## lancedobbs417

Dunno


----------



## LafNowCryManana

This was helpful thanks


----------



## Bill Bikie

*Cycle in the summer, run in the winter*

I weight train, shoot baskets, and run indoors on a track when I can no longer cycle outdoors on a regularly. In the spring, when I can put together at least a couple of rides a week, I'll stop running.

I've got a trainer, but I only use it for bike set-up and shoe/cleat adjustments. I find the trainer is too static. It doesn't move under the rider.


----------



## Dave Cutter

Dr_John said:


> I used to be a runner, quit, got way out of shape, then switched to cycling. I just started running again. I ride 8000-10000 miles a year so I don't need to run for exercise, and I don't run to improve my cycling. I do it because at my age, I really need to be doing some type of weight-bearing exercise.


Winter here in the Midwest cuts down on my cycling times/miles. So I try a winter routine. Last winter I tried swimming laps as a winter sport. That didn't prove to be my cup of tea... thank God for a short winter last year.

I am also a senior... and [if I remember correctly] the CDC recommends two weight training sessions and/plus 2 to 2 ½ hours of aerobic exercise per week. Cycling more than covers the aerobic in summer... maybe even in most of the off season. 

But I've already added a walk/run [3K] to my activity's [I don't like to call my cycling exercise.... cause I'd look like an exercise junkie... instead of just a cycling junkie]. I think the walk/run will keep me active enough through winter. I do the walk/run instead of just jogging... to preserve my hips and knees. 

I've been doing some light weight training at home. But think I will try going to a gym twice a week or so this winter. Being retired... I think I like the idea of just getting out more on bad weather days.

I have this idea that I should work on my balance. From little tidbits I read I get the idea that balance [or the lack of good balance] is what slows seniors. Not poor aerobic health, or muscle weakness, or decreased reflexes. Last year I “trained” using a Wii [with the fitness board]. I really think it improved my feeling of general health, or well being. I might look into a yoga... or kung fu classes or something this winter.


----------



## cnskate

After twenty years of being sedentary I put in 7000 miles on the bike with nothing worse than a saddle sore. First mile of jogging I pull my hamstring. Jogging sucks.


----------



## atimido

Jogging does suck! Do what I do; on the days I don't ride I use a versa-climber for 15-20 mins, then do chin-ups, push-ups, and flutter-kicks. Repeat 3x.


----------



## bytewalls

Stretching should not be neglected. Most cyclists don't do it enough and it will cause injuries when you try and do other stuff. Cycling is kind, you usually just lose power and can't have as aggressive a position. Stretch..... (At least this is what I find is usually the reason muscles pet pulled doing a simple jog, not a medical expert)


----------



## nOOky

I have been running the past two winters. I just started running again this fall.
Imho it's much better than sitting on the couch doing nothing, and I can only take so much of the trainer before I have to get outside.
Last year was probably my best year ever at age 44. I think I can attribute some of that to maintaining cardiovascular fitness over the past winter. I ran at least 2-3 times a week, and either got outside to bike or biked on the trainer for 2-3 times a week also. It also helped me control my weight, running burns quite a few calories when you hold a decent pace.
I would not go strictly with running however if my goal was bike racing.
For recreational cyclists and those looking for general fitness, why not?


----------



## bikewriter

My coach has me doing twice-a-week hiking & running for the first month of the next-year-race training. Easy stuff. Exploring. Having fun. About 45m to 1 hour. Use different muscle groups. Get some weight loaded on the ol' bones. I truly enjoy it, almost no structure other than "get out and have some fun."


----------



## DocRogers

Some observations:

I find that I can't take an easy run like I can take an easy bike ride, so running gives me a great workout because I can't "cheat" and take it easy.

I travel a lot, and running gear is a lot easier to pack that a bike.

I have found that although I used to run out of necessity (see above), I'm starting to look forward to it in the way I look forward to cycling.


----------



## dnmoss

High Intensity Running Increases VO2 Max in Cyclists | Breaking Muscle

Saw this somewhere else too, but cannot find the original article...


----------



## Used2Run

I think running hills would be beneficial to cyclists. Hills are a "hidden" form of speed training and aid in building quads. Also, doing some hill repeats will increase VO2Max. The worst thing about running instead of biking is a loss of power. I find if I run more days than I ride, my first few rides are pretty slow and I can't generate any power. 

Some good benefits to running are increased bone density and you (well at least I do) burn more calories running 6:30-7min miles than I do riding 17-18mph. Maybe if I could ride 20 mph then I would have a more equal caloric expenditure. 

You don't have to worry about gaining any muscle because of running. Running is like riding in that it is an endurance event which prevents the growth of muscle. This is because during aerobic exercise your body releases more estrogen to than testosterone to prevent muscle growth. If you run/ride a lot, your body knows that extra muscle is bad so it tries to prevent extra muscle. That's the reason why body builders don't run.


----------



## jmitro

Used2Run said:


> This is because during aerobic exercise your body releases more estrogen to than testosterone to prevent muscle growth. If you run/ride a lot, your body knows that extra muscle is bad so it tries to prevent extra muscle.


I'm an OB/GYN and I've never heard this before. Can you provide scientific data that supports this?


----------



## Used2Run

*Ex. Phys. Book*

I'm looking through my exercise physiology books but have limited time today. You'll get a more complete answer in a few days after I'm done with the Thanksgiving stuff and then hunting but...

Endurance exercise canabalizes muscle in order to increase efficiency. More muscle=increased weight and heat production by the body which decreases endurance performance. That's why you don't see many jacked distance runners and cyclists. The ones you do see either race shorter distances or are naturally ectomorphs. I thought/think the body suppresses growth hormone or increases the production of estrogen relative to testosterone but don't quote me on the mechanism/hormone until I find this in my books.


----------



## Dave Cutter

dnmoss said:


> High Intensity Running Increases VO2 Max in Cyclists | Breaking Muscle
> 
> Saw this somewhere else too, but cannot find the original article...


That's interesting. I've added a walk/run to my routine... only partly because of the winter season. I've found just by jogging a portion of my 3K - 5K walks I can raise my heart rate and get what _I think_ is a decent work-out. I am bit old for serious jogging as I want to keep my original issue knees.


----------



## Used2Run

I just got back out of the woods but am at work and will be gone the next few nights but here is an answer to why you don't gain muscle as an endurance athlete. I will find the answer to the chemical/hormonal response soon.

This is a little blurb my Ex Phys professor sent me when I asked him what book to look in (I had him for 4 or so classes). It's not THE answer but, is one reason why you don't gain muscle while riding/running a lot. "At any rate, the focus of runners is generally ATP production. Thus, they often times have type 2 muscle fibers take on type 1 muscle fiber characteristics (including limited hypertrophy). Also, the stimulus in running isn’t generating enough force to cause significant anabolic hormone release to cause hypertrophy to occur. "


----------



## Doc_D

bytewalls said:


> Stretching should not be neglected. Most cyclists don't do it enough and it will cause injuries when you try and do other stuff. Cycling is kind, you usually just lose power and can't have as aggressive a position. Stretch..... (At least this is what I find is usually the reason muscles pet pulled doing a simple jog, not a medical expert)


Stretching prior to an activity is the myth that just won't die. Some studies even suggest your more likely to injure yourself during the stretching.


Stretching before a run does not necessarily prevent injury, study finds


----------



## Dave Cutter

It would seem that for every study done investigating the value of any activity, another study is done that negates the other studies results. Yet if we ignore these bright new gems of information we do so at our own peril. My own Doctor is fond sharing recent published study ideas with me. 

Yet... I think all these competitive studies only prove a couple things. Humans have a natural desire to learn and understand. And... we know very little about our own bodies and how they work. Although I think these many studies add to our knowledge base.... the volume of these studies also make extracting useful information from them... like finding a needle in a hay stack. 

When we have so many conflicting studies... could any of them be more than anecdotal? 

Many studies are sponsored by the very interests the results seem to benefit. I seem to remember a study from decades ago that showed that nut filled candy bars could be a convenient and tasty form of protein. That paper collection of wisdom was paid for, of course, by a national candy producer. 

I believe some other studies merely fill knowledge voids with papers designed to allow the writer to meet job related publishing requirements. I like reading about new ideas and information. But I guess I don't accept it all as truth.


----------



## sohoming

cross training is a good idea for any sport.


----------



## jmitro

Doc_D said:


> Stretching prior to an activity is the myth that just won't die. Some studies even suggest your more likely to injure yourself during the stretching.
> 
> 
> Stretching before a run does not necessarily prevent injury, study finds


that's because it's not a myth. the very study you quote actually states more runners got injured when they normally stretched before, but STOPPED stretching.
There's too many variables to make a blanket statement that 'stretching is bad.' Before high intensity track workouts as a college runner, we always warmed up for a mile, stretched, then did our mile intervals or whatever. 
In my opinion, stretching cold muscles can be harmful, but stretching warm muscles prevents injury and makes one more limber. I always stretch after a ride, but never before.




Used2Run said:


> I just got back out of the woods but am at work and will be gone the next few nights but here is an answer to why you don't gain muscle as an endurance athlete. I will find the answer to the chemical/hormonal response soon.
> 
> This is a little blurb my Ex Phys professor sent me when I asked him what book to look in (I had him for 4 or so classes). It's not THE answer but, is one reason why you don't gain muscle while riding/running a lot. "At any rate, the focus of runners is generally ATP production. Thus, they often times have type 2 muscle fibers take on type 1 muscle fiber characteristics (including limited hypertrophy). Also, the stimulus in running isn’t generating enough force to cause significant anabolic hormone release to cause hypertrophy to occur. "


Your second paragraph makes more sense than release of estrogen during aerobic exercise. In my 8 + years of medical training I never once heard that aerobic activity releases more estrogen.



Dave Cutter said:


> It would seem that for every study done investigating the value of any activity, another study is done that negates the other studies results. Yet if we ignore these bright new gems of information we do so at our own peril. My own Doctor is fond sharing recent published study ideas with me.
> 
> Yet... I think all these competitive studies only prove a couple things. Humans have a natural desire to learn and understand. And... we know very little about our own bodies and how they work. Although I think these many studies add to our knowledge base.... the volume of these studies also make extracting useful information from them... like finding a needle in a hay stack.
> 
> When we have so many conflicting studies... could any of them be more than anecdotal?
> 
> Many studies are sponsored by the very interests the results seem to benefit. I seem to remember a study from decades ago that showed that nut filled candy bars could be a convenient and tasty form of protein. That paper collection of wisdom was paid for, of course, by a national candy producer.
> 
> I believe some other studies merely fill knowledge voids with papers designed to allow the writer to meet job related publishing requirements. I like reading about new ideas and information. But I guess I don't accept it all as truth.


Agreed. As a medical professional we are subjected to a dizzying number of "studies" with various findings, some of which are contradictory. Basically we just have to sort out the information, look at studies with a critical eye, and don't "cherry pick" the studies that support our own agenda, but wait until a consensus is reached among experts.


----------



## Dave Cutter

jmitro said:


> ...... As a medical professional we are subjected to a dizzying number of "studies" with various findings, some of which are contradictory. Basically we just have to sort out the information, look at studies with a critical eye, and don't "cherry pick" the studies that support our own agenda, but wait until a consensus is reached among experts.


And I trust my doctor (and other health care professionals) to make those evaluations for me. And I realize that the finial decisions on most issues won't be made in my lifetime. But, giving a new promising idea a trial doesn't hurt. More knowledge will continue to be gained and the best-guess advice will evolve. 

But, I shy away from radical new ideas and breakthrough new products.


----------



## Used2Run

I can't find anything in either of my books from my Ex Phys and Strength and Conditioning classes to support what I said about the hormonal releases so I was wrong about that. The increased need for calories/energy depletes what you have stored in your body so if you do more aerobic/endurance work than anaerobic/strength work you are likely to lose muscle if you go into an energy deficit. Also, the increased energy demands will negatively effect your workout later which will cause you to not gain as much muscle mass because you can't work out at a high intensity. That's the best answer I can find from my books. Thanks for making me fact check and sorry for the nonsense a few posts ago!


----------



## nolight

Regardless of whether running is beneficial for cycling, for me running is a better exercise than cycling. It is my MAIN exercise, and cycling is secondary. 

At one time after I started cycling, I stopped jogging for a period of time and just did cycling. After I restarted jogging, I was at my most unfit level for a long time. That is when I realised cycling doesn't give me the workout jogging does. It is possible to cycle long distances without even exercising and working your heart at all because the bike is doing the work for you, unless you FORCE yourself to push hard during cycling.

As a side-effect, the cardiovascular workout gained from running should help endurance during cycling, especially climbing.


----------



## love4himies

nolight said:


> Regardless of whether running is beneficial for cycling, for me running is a better exercise than cycling. It is my MAIN exercise, and cycling is secondary.
> 
> At one time after I started cycling, I stopped jogging for a period of time and just did cycling. After I restarted jogging, I was at my most unfit level for a long time. That is when I realised cycling doesn't give me the workout jogging does. It is possible to cycle long distances without even exercising and working your heart at all because the bike is doing the work for you, unless you FORCE yourself to push hard during cycling.
> 
> As a side-effect, the cardiovascular workout gained from running should help endurance during cycling, especially climbing.


That's exactly what I find. I bike more than run in the summer (only jog on days I can't bike) and jog daily in the winter. In the fall when I get back into jogging, it takes a few weeks to get my heart back into shape. Jogging 7 km's is more of an aerobic workout then biking 50 on gently rolling hills. 

The good thing about biking is that it's easier on the old joints than jogging.


----------



## Neckkoss

for me running have been the only way to keep my weight low and like other said it takes time to build up the muscle from running, so take it easy at the beginning and build up the base first, this will help you with your goal weight but i wont do to much increasing your ftp, you will go faster because you will be lighter. i do intervals slow/fast 2 minutes/1 minute, for about 30 to 45 minutes, 5 to 8 minutes warm up and 5 to cool off, do your running as early as you can in the morning i found i will burn more calories at 6:00am than if i do the same at the end of the day 5:00pm.


----------



## Bevo

As a long distance runner getting back into road riding I have some advice to help you guys, this is time tested and proven...trust me!

The number one issue most of you have or will have is thinking running is easy which it is but doing it wrong is even easier.
These tips will really help you get started easier.

- Buy real running shoes, go to a good shop and let them watch you run, this will determine your shoe. It does not need to be expensive $50-100 is plenty.
- Slower than you think and less than you want, run like a fat guy seriously!!
- Start with 1 min slow run, 2 min walk for 30 min or less but no more. Keep extending this as you feel stronger.
- when you can run for 30 min run slow like 11 min mile until it feel easy then step it up slowly.
- Don't run every day, every other day is plenty..let your body recover.
- We are all competitive so its hard to rein back the speed but you have to, this is for biking not 10 K run races. Once you have the miles on your legs then have at it, 10K's are fun in a different way.

The number one problem that hurt new runners is the TOO's Too much and Too fast. If you start really slow you will be running faster in 4 weeks and enjoy it.

Another reason lots of people get hurt is how they run, without going into huge detail the best way regardless of how your foot strikes is to keep your legs underneath you. You want short crisp tight strides and a fast cadence, this allows your body to take the softer hit with the joints in its comfort zone and not at the extremes of flex where you don't typically go. Think fast walk with slightly wider stretch.

As to is running helpful the answer is 100%, the TRI guys know this right?
If you take your time and go slow you will be out the door with your heart rate up in a training zone in the fresh air and home with a great cardio workout in less time than it takes to watch Dexter or drive to the gym.

For me if I run lots my legs hurt on the bike because they can't keep up to my cardio, if its the right balance then its even. Other things like hard hills or intervals are easier as my recovery is faster even if my legs are weaker. 
Once my legs catch up it will be good but right now its too icy and cold to ride. In the spring I will switch to bikes 90% of the time and my legs will catch up to my cardio..I can't see how that is not a benefit.


----------



## Used2Run

Bevo said:


> - Slower than you think and less than you want, run like a fat guy seriously!!
> - Start with 1 min slow run, 2 min walk for 30 min or less but no more. Keep extending this as you feel stronger.
> - when you can run for 30 min run slow like 11 min mile until it feel easy then step it up slowly.
> - Don't run every day, every other day is plenty..let your body recover.
> 
> Another reason lots of people get hurt is how they run, without going into huge detail the best way regardless of how your foot strikes is to keep your legs underneath you. You want short crisp tight strides and a fast cadence, this allows your body to take the softer hit with the joints in its comfort zone and not at the extremes of flex where you don't typically go. Think fast walk with slightly wider stretch.
> 
> As to is running helpful the answer is 100%, the TRI guys know this right?
> If you take your time and go slow you will be out the door with your heart rate up in a training zone in the fresh air and home with a great cardio workout in less time than it takes to watch Dexter or drive to the gym.
> 
> For me if I run lots my legs hurt on the bike because they can't keep up to my cardio, if its the right balance then its even. Other things like hard hills or intervals are easier as my recovery is faster even if my legs are weaker.
> Once my legs catch up it will be good but right now its too icy and cold to ride. In the spring I will switch to bikes 90% of the time and my legs will catch up to my cardio..I can't see how that is not a benefit.


A lot of what you wrote is good, sound advice. A few things I would add are don't shuffle when you run. What you described as a "fast walk with slightly wider stretch" sounds like a shuffle which is going to make running harder. Drive with your knees. If you don't, it makes it harder to swing your foot forward which is like adding weight to the rims of your wheels. 

Also, a lot of what you wrote is age and fitness dependent. You don't usually want to go from cycling a lot to running 50+ miles per week. Just listen to your body though. Each person knows their body better than a poster on a board so listen to your legs.


----------



## NJBiker72

atimido said:


> Oh, I'm sure as long as you don't run at a turtle's pace like I do.


This. I think i burn about the same. I ran twice this week as i am away and it is easier to pack sneakers than cycling shoes, helmet and bike. 
The running feels good but kills my knees. Still a run on the beach/boardwalk was a nice change. A poor swimming effort was also nice.

Back to the trainer and suffering behind (handle)bars tomorrow.


----------



## Used2Run

Running on the beach is pretty bad for you unless you run on the hard packed sand by the water. Running in the sand forces you to run like you're slipping which adds extra and bad forces/pressure on your feet and legs. Also, if you run barefoot, you'll rub all the skin off your feet. If you run in shoes, you're likely to get sand in your shoe and get blisters.


----------



## NJBiker72

Used2Run said:


> Running on the beach is pretty bad for you unless you run on the hard packed sand by the water. Running in the sand forces you to run like you're slipping which adds extra and bad forces/pressure on your feet and legs. Also, if you run barefoot, you'll rub all the skin off your feet. If you run in shoes, you're likely to get sand in your shoe and get blisters.


Yeah I thought the beach would be less painful than the boards on the knees but it was quite the opposite. Very hard. My speed dropped fairly significantly.


----------



## Bevo

Usedtorun
Yes your right its not a shuffle, as your speed picks up your stride gets wider naturally. The idea is not to get your heel way out in front of you, thats where the jarring happens.

If your ever at the gym you can see or hear it in action, those landing on the heel with wide strides are just pounding the machine and those with shorter strides are much softer and quiet.

Either way run soft and try to take it easy, it will only help..


----------



## Used2Run

Shuffling=Bad
Massive heel strike=Bad
Running on treadmills=Not so good
Treadmills are softer than running on concrete and asphalt BUT, they force you to shorten and chop up your stride. Most people are scared of hitting the front and it changes their stride. It's why I don't put much stock into studies that use treadmills to test running form. Though, I have a friend a friend who did a study with Steve Magness (the guy I'm linking you to) at George Mason and their treadmill didn't have anything on the front to hit while running. It was really nifty but still awkward to run on.

Moral of the story, run at 180 (90/leg) strides per minute. This helps to prevent over and under striding which will decrease injuries. Running form in very important but most hobby joggers who go out and buy the most or least cushioned shoe they can find, would benefit more from reading this article than getting those shoes.

Science of Running: How to Run: Running with proper biomechanics

If you don't have 30 min to read that, here is the important part:
Summary of Running Form:
1. Body Position- upright, slight lean from ground. Head and face relaxed.
2. Feet- As soon as knee comes through, put the foot down underneath you. Land mid or forefoot underneath knee, close to center of the body.
3. Arm stroke- controls rhythm, forward and backwards from the shoulder without side to side rotation
4. Hip extension- extend the hip and then leave it alone.
5. Rhythm- Control rhythm and speed through arm stroke and hip extension.


----------



## Used2Run

jmitro said:


> that's because it's not a myth. the very study you quote actually states more runners got injured when they normally stretched before, but STOPPED stretching.
> There's too many variables to make a blanket statement that 'stretching is bad.' Before high intensity track workouts as a college runner, we always warmed up for a mile, stretched, then did our mile intervals or whatever.
> In my opinion, stretching cold muscles can be harmful, but stretching warm muscles prevents injury and makes one more limber. I always stretch after a ride, but never before.
> 
> Agreed. As a medical professional we are subjected to a dizzying number of "studies" with various findings, some of which are contradictory. Basically we just have to sort out the information, look at studies with a critical eye, and don't "cherry pick" the studies that support our own agenda, but wait until a consensus is reached among experts.


Sorry to reply to a 3 week old post BUUUUUT, I couldn't agree more with your second paragraph. Stretching cold muscles is a bad idea. It starts a chain reaction that ends up with your muscle contracting to prevent it from tearing (a natural response from your body if you stretch too hard). If you keep stretching, it's very possible to make small tears in the muscle which then lead to injury. *Warm up before you stretch!!!* 
Personally, I rarely stretch because a looser muscle has less elasticity which decreases the amount of force it can return after striking the ground. A dynamic warm up isn't bad though. It helps to get your legs up to speed before the intensity of the workout/race that is to follow. Have you ever noticed that your second interval isn't as hard as the first? That's because you are finally warmed up. A dynamic warm up is harder than what most people do normally which helps to prepare your body for the intensity that is to follow.

Also, you all only warmed up a mile? That doesn't seem adequate to me unless you did a lot of dynamic stretching after that mile.


----------



## Thanos

I am a veteran cyclist, I run 10 kms out of curiosity, I got ITBS! NOT a good idea, stay solely with your bike!


----------



## Used2Run

Thanos said:


> I am a veteran cyclist, I run 10 kms out of curiosity, I got ITBS! NOT a good idea, stay solely with your bike!


Anecdotal evidence. The epitome of science.


----------



## jswilson64

I am a veteran cyclist, I started running seriously November 2011. I could barely run two miles, my average was over 12:00 per mile when I started.
I ran a 5k last month at an 8:52 average, and a 10k yesterday at a 9:03 average. I didn't get ITBS.


----------

