# Ti as a "forever" bike?



## ttk5180 (Nov 21, 2013)

Hey Everyone,

I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.

I'm thinking about getting a Ti Frame, more specifically the Litespeed T1 SL and looking to use that as the coffee shop bike and maybe do a few uphill TT's, but nothing more serious than that. I've owned and ridden high end carbon bikes such as Giant TCR Advanced SL ISP's, SWorks Tarmac, etc but there something about Ti that really piques my interest. 

So the question is, for anyone who has ridden a Ti bike, is it worth it? Will it be comparable to, let's say, the 2016 SWorks Tarmac in terms of ride quality, light weight, stiffness, etc? If Ti is worth it, then my goal would be to hold onto the Ti frame indefinitely and just upgrade components over the years. Thoughts?


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

ttk5180 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...


If you want a Ti bike, then by all means get one.

My thought on "lifetime" bikes: I want all my bikes to last forever. That doesn't necessarily mean I want to ride the same bike forever though


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Honestly, My Paramount and Custom Reynolds 753 bike are more forever bike to me than any of the Ti bike I have owned. Not to say a good Ti frame can't be a forever bike, but no more so than anything else because it is Ti IMO.

You want a forever bike, get a CAAD 3, and no I am not kidding. It would probably be more of a forever bike than most quite possibly...

Get the Ti bike cause you want it and can afford it.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Got my Seven Axiom Race going on 6+ years ago. Still puts a smile on my face to this day. No urge to buy another bike at all, and hopefully it will last at least another decade minimum. 18lbs as pictured ready to ride, light enough that it don't matter much.

https://imgur.com/a/cL4H1

Any bike can be a very-long-term bike. Question is what pushes your buttons and what do you want-combined with where can you find it. Can't be custom in getting you what you want, provided you know what you want. 

If what you're after and pushes your personal buttons is weight and stiffness...well each and every year every single Bike Label is hawking ads about their frames that are 10% lighter and 30% stiffer. If what gets you excited is that, you'll always be wanting a new bike every year


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ttk5180 said:


> I would like your opinion on Ti frames.............I'm thinking about getting a Ti Frame............something about Ti that really piques my interest. So the question is, for anyone who has ridden a Ti bike, is it worth it? Will it be comparable to, let's say, the 2016 SWorks Tarmac in terms of ride quality, light weight, stiffness, etc?...............Thoughts?


My most recent MTB frame (a Seven Sola, 15 yrs ago) and my most recent road frame (a Kish, 4 years ago) are both Ti. I could have bought any frame material on the planet but I chose Ti. Actually, with both the MTB frame and the road frame, I was coming from carbon frames (a Kestrel and an Argon18 respectively) and I wanted something new and I wanted to get out of the "shape and color of the month" rat race. So now I have two bikes with plain ol' titanium grey and mostly black parts and I couldn't be happier. They look SO purposeful to me in all their hi-tech plainness.

If I had to replace them, I would order the same things again. They're perfect and IMO they can't be improved on.

I just don't care if something else might be lighter, stiffer, faster or look better to the coffee-shop crowd. Those are races that you can never win. 

When I see the average $1000-$2000 Specatrekondale they just leave me cold. When I see someone on a custom Ti frame I know I'm looking at someone who is very passionate about cycling - much like I look at someone with a custom guitar.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Marc said:


> Got my Seven Axiom Race going on 6+ years ago. Still puts a smile on my face to this day. No urge to buy another bike at all, and hopefully it will last at least another decade minimum. 18lbs as pictured ready to ride, light enough that it don't matter much.
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/cL4H1
> 
> ...


that's a freaking nice looking bike. Honestly I'd take a bike like that over any highend cookie cutter anyday


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ttk5180 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...



the world of subjectivity and ever changing plastic cookie cutter bikes, even if they're so called highend, you can rest assured that your Sworks and TCRs of today will be a "who care" 5,6 years from now. Think about the highend carbon fiber bikes made just 5 years ago in 2010, do you still desire any of them? Hell, I've forgotten all of their names already. Listen, nobody will be looking to buy your 2010 carbon bikes unless it's onsale for dirt cheap. That's because the people looking to buy carbon bikes are always looking for the latest feature. They don't care about any timeless quality it may have, and indeed most carbon bikes have no timeless quality in them. In the future, when they start making bikes with graphene, you know your carbon fiber bikes will quickly become the new aluminum right?

Ti, on the other hand, is always a timeless material, the material hasn't changed in decades. There is something about cold metal that invokes the souls of men that plastic just doesn't. Maybe we men equate plastic with something cheap and fake, like Hollywood. But if you get a ti bike, put a good paint job on it, people will still look at it with curiosity 10, 20 years from now.

And I can't speak for all ti bikes, but my Serotta Ottrott rides softer and nicer than any highend carbon bikes out there. But ti bikes are usually meant to be roubaix and endurance bikes. Highend carbon are more meant to be stiff race crafts. They ride differently.

Another material you should consider is stainless steel. Stainless steel seems to be the latest rage in getting back to metal bikes.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> But if you get a ti bike, put a good paint job on it, people will still look at it with curiosity 10, 20 years from now.


Wondering why you are still riding it, but you will know why. 

I totally confess to liking bikes, plastic and mostly steel. I have one plastic bike left after this years revamp/flush. And having advertised a 7 year old Carbon bike for a while that MSRP on the Frameset was $7k when new... I can agree that one will want your 5+ year old plastic bike. Even if it is a HMX Scott Addict LTD apparently. Which a 61CM bike is under 15 lbs. And I advertised it well below what BicycleBlueBook values it at. Like my mint bike for poor condition price. Not one inquiry...


I did sell my mint 2006 Roubaix this year for $800.00. So not no one, especially in the cheaper end maybe.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> When I see someone on a custom Ti frame I know I'm looking at someone who is very passionate about cycling - much like I look at someone with a custom guitar.


These guy might make you a Ti Telecaster Mike. 

metaal, steel, metal, stalen, body, guitars, custom, steelcaster,metalcaster, D&C, belgium, telesteel, telecaster, gibson, firebird


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

ttk5180 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. My Litespeed titanium frame looks better after 18 years than my last pained frame did in half that time.



> Will it be comparable to, let's say, the 2016 SWorks Tarmac in terms of ride quality, light weight, stiffness, etc?


It'll be fine. You can also add couplers to round tubes so you can travel with it as checked luggage without an over-size fee.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

my Serotta-made Ti Schwinn Paramount is a nice ride.

it's unique and I get shitloads of compliments on it.

no thoughts of replacing it with some Taiwanese carbon clone-mobile.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I rode a Litespeed (Lynskey) for 6 years and just never enjoyed it. I have a few forever bikes, a Merckx MX Leader which is overbuilt lugged steel that is 17 years old. A US Team steel GT that is fillet brazed and is 22 years old. A steel Team Shaklee GT that is 19 years old. All of these are daily riders and show no signs of falling apart any time soon. If I was going to get a Ti bike, I'd get a Moots or Firefly.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

bigbill said:


> Merckx MX Leader which is overbuilt lugged steel


Bridge truss!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

robt57 said:


> These guy might make you a Ti Telecaster Mike.


Oh cool !! If I ever bought another guitar it would be a Tele shape.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Ti is a wonderful material for a frame.

If this is truly a "forever" bike, I'd suggest buying a custom geometry frame built exactly to your body requirements. Look at builders like Moots, Kelly Bedford Customs, Seven and Firefly.

Personally, I'd skip the stock Litespeed frame. You can do better.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Oh cool !! If I ever bought another guitar it would be a Tele shape.



If I didn't build my own wheels I'd have offered to make you a body for a build by now.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

tvad said:


> Ti is a wonderful material for a frame.
> 
> If this is truly a "forever" bike, I'd suggest buying a custom geometry frame built exactly to your body requirements.



To me it is the custom that makes for the [hopefully] forever, not the Ti. The TI is just the media. no?

Here are 3 of my forever customs. Steel.

Steel for me, because I believe the cost to make Ti tubes overcome the materials short comings with cold working etc. is not needed for steels today or yesterday. If I am saying that correctly...


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

robt57 said:


> To me it is the custom that makes for the [hopefully] forever, not the Ti. The TI is just the media. no?


The OP is interested in Ti, therefore I decided to follow the theme.

FWIW, Ti will not rust. It will outlive the owner. 

I have no dog in the hunt as far as frame material. I previously owned a tremendous 1999 Litespeed Ti bike, and I presently own two custom bikes made of carbon, and TT S3 steel.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

tvad said:


> The OP is interested in Ti, therefore I decided to follow the theme.


I guess my way of saying I'd rather have custom steel than peg Ti.  But Custom Ti of course...  Again, as I originally said, if you can afford it and want it...


But let me ask this among Ti fans participating. Powder coated Ti, or definitely Nude?
And obviously to the OP, is it the Nude Ti, or at least that aspect spinning your wheels toward Ti?


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## campyjoe (Aug 12, 2015)

Ti will last you a lifetime and then some as long as there is no damage to the frame. Ti doesn't rust, it doesn't even fatigue for that matter like other materials. Ti is quite possibly the most comfortable material too, but it is also lively. You will feel the pavement, but in a very comfortable way if that makes sense. A Ti frame will not be as stiff or light as many carbon frames, but will typically be lighter than steel and it doesn't have to painted or chrome plated. Aluminum frames seem to have come a long way and have some of the same qualities as Ti, but the ride imo will still be more harsh than Ti and over time, aluminum will fatigue, depending on how much you ride.

I sold my Colnago Bititan back in the mid 90's after having children. I hated to, but I didn't want it to become a dust collector. I always knew I would regret it and now that I'm back into cycling, I really do. Ti frames imo may be the best combination of everything. Maybe not the best at any one thing in particular, but as a whole, a well made Ti frame is a pleasure to ride.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

ttk5180 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...


Yes !!!! Ti is for real !! It makes a light and comfortable ride, I love mine. Buy a frame from a reputable manufacturer, take care of it and you can reasonably expect to be riding this frame for your stated purpose a long, long time. If you are thrashing it every weekend to see if you can sustain 500W on the ole power meter for an hour or two, maybe not so long.. Carbon steel is also a great ride!! (And remember,, Friends do not let friends ride Plastic!!! ) My frame is brushed and I love the look. No maintenance and a scotch brite pad will make the frame look new in about 10 minutes.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Not sure what you mean but Coffee Shop Bike but Ti or anything that cost more than $400 wouldn't be 'worth it' to me just to get to a coffee shop.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

n2deep said:


> Yes !!!! Ti is for real !! It makes a light and comfortable ride


Light... My Steel Strong Custom with a 59 TT in 2000 was the same weight as all but the Vortex near my size for Litespeeds. So some prospective, and one of the reasons I did the custom steel and not another Litespeed at the time. The Vortex was among the yop end and most expensive, so one would hope it delivered it all. 

The folks I know near my size/weight that got actually 'lighter Ti' who got Merlin XLs, that all cracked sooner or later. Pick your poison, but on the merits. Weight is not really one of them when compared to the highest end steel frames when it comes down to it.

Now that materials road feel dynamic is something to behold though. As is carbon, no magic self contained there on the comfort front not found elsewhere...

But Ti itself does not make for 'comfort' my Blade is one stiff and less compliant mofo, TI or not.

Ti=Media, it is all about the design and build rest assured...


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I have Ti bikes and they ride well, but I also have Steel and Carbon and even Alumin(i)um bikes and they ride just as well, meaning I can't tell a difference that 5 psi of tire pressure wouldn't account for. I do think Ti is great for longevity. I have corroded through steel and Alumin(i)um frames and I have broken carbon frames, and had carbon frames become more flexible after many thousands of miles. Ti could also break of course, especially at the welds, so choosing a quality frame maker is a good idea (nope, not suggesting one because I'm not stirring the hornet nest). I use a significant amount of stainless and Ti hardware for longevity, and I wouldn't mind adding a Reynolds 953 frame as my next build, although that means getting murdered in my sleep by the wife. One of the cautions with Ti is that stuff tends to creak, so maintenance is important. Personally I also have had trouble with corrosion of Alumin(i)um parts directly in contact with Ti, my alien sweat tends to think the part is an anode and attacks it pretty aggressively. For example, I've had to put electrical tape under my FDs on my Ti frames or else the corrosion builds up under the clamp (where you can't rinse) which eventually "pops" the clamp.

Forever is a long time. Standards tend to change over time, if you look back 20 years bikes had 1 inch forks. There is nothing wrong with 1 inch forks and head tubes, but good luck getting a quality replacement easily. The rear spacing will likely change, as may bottom bracket standards. Would you be ok riding non-compact geometry today? I would be, but a lot of other people would not due to standover height. If handlebars change, the headtube heights will likely change. My point is an older frame is specifically made for older components, and updating the components may not be so seamless.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

robt57 said:


> Ti=Media, it is all about the design and build rest assured...


You did say it twice, so I feel obliged to correct it... it's a medium.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> I wouldn't mind adding a Reynolds 953 frame as my next build, although that means getting murdered in my sleep by the wife.


Now this is a conversation I'd like to hear the opinions on. Why Ti or why Stainless one over the other considering same price point pretty much??





DrSmile said:


> I have Ti bikes and they ride well


As I said, I have a Ti bike that really does not ride that well, Not in that sweet magic sense some/most do. A blade TT, it is more about the shapes of the 'tubes' and the build.

Back when I had two or three Ti bike at a time, I also had a Fuji Team Issue Scandium Mercury bike. It road just as well as as the Saber, Classic and Appalachian I had at the same time. I also had a Q-Carbon Klein in 2012 I picked up used that had an incredible road feel/quality as nice as the Ti bikes I have owned... And it would only fit 23mm tires FWIW.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> You did say it twice, so I feel obliged to correct it... it's a medium.


And the plural of medium

AND

an intervening substance/intervening agency, means, or instrument by which something is conveyed or accomplished:


Is my use non standard or something?


See what happens when you quit High School the 2nd week of 10th grade kids!


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

robt57 said:


> And the plural of medium
> 
> AND
> 
> ...


So your definition is of medium, the plural of which is media. Titanium is a medium, frame materials are media.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> So your definition is of medium, the plural of which is media. Titanium is a medium, frame materials are media.


Noted, and thank you. I'd rather be correct in use certainly.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

robt57 said:


> Now this is a conversation I'd like to hear the opinions on. Why Ti or why Stainless one over the other considering same price point pretty much??.


I'm a little old school. For me, its aesthetics, I like bare Ti or steel frames and TIG welds/flanged brazed joints. IMHO, stainless does not make a great frame material due to its mechanical properties especially when compared to some of the great steel frames that are available today. A great frame should be a work of art-craftsmanship, the dropouts should not look like drilled pipe plugs, the badge should show the makers pride.. If it's ugly,, pass it up,, life's too short to ride an ugly bike.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

n2deep said:


> I'm a little old school. For me, its aesthetics, I like bare Ti or steel frames and TIG welds/flanged brazed joints. IMHO, stainless does not make a great frame material due to its mechanical properties especially when compared to some of the great steel frames that are available today. A great frame should be a work of art-craftsmanship, the dropouts should not look like drilled pipe plugs, the badge should show the makers pride.. If it's ugly,, pass it up,, life's too short to ride an ugly bike.


Yeah but I almost bought this frame because it isn't ugly at all...










Soma Feed: Soma Smoothie SS: Our Stainless Steel Road Frame All Built Up


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I like the extra piece of bar tape between the wall and the new white tape job. ;0 Like two more minutes of clean is going to make a difference. :aureola:

But for me in the aesthetics dept that Soma although pretty, looks like a brighter Ti bike. Absolutely cool if one likes the look. I tired of the monochomosis and yearned for color beyond tape tires and saddles after a few years. 

After several Ti bikes for 5 years and doing the winter scotchbrite citrus rejuving rituals... I have to say I prefer the powder coating. The finish condition on my 2000 Strong is just hard to believe for 12 years as an every day bike. I actually considered going with wet paint when I had it made thinking the powder coat would add weight. derp!



DrSmile said:


> Yeah but I almost bought this frame because it isn't ugly at all...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

The regular (unpolished) Ti finish is pretty easy to maintain, although like you say you have to like the color grey. I'm ok with a non-flashy bike, if you want to stand out just get some neon cycling gear.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> The regular (unpolished) Ti finish is pretty easy to maintain, although like you say you have to like the color grey. I'm ok with a non-flashy bike, if you want to stand out just get some neon cycling gear.


I never avoided rain riding and found the brushed Ti got pretty dark/danky/dirty. But it is rewarding if you get new decals and do the cleaning rutual. Bike looks new easily, well not easily and a dirty job. The Powder coat is really easy though... 

As far a flashy dress, I see my bike, not myself..  Flash on everything is good for visibility of course. 


All a coke and pepsi thing really...

I am more OK with a flashy bike after 1000 miles into the season of course.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I think part of the attraction of stainless frames is the steel bike small tube look. Ti tubes are getting thinner so the differences are starting to fade.


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

ttk5180 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...


I think you really want a specific build more than material. All materials can be customized to certain ride qualities -- from bone rattling stiff to noodle-like. I've owned titanium bikes from almost all the major mfrs, incl Cambridge built Merlins, Lynskey built Litespeeds and many custom. They all have different ride qualities. 

If you're looking for a bike that is durable- one that would likely survive a crash and endure the pratfalls and wear from everyday life, than a titanium or steel bike is your material.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

tvad said:


> Ti is a wonderful material for a frame.
> 
> If this is truly a "forever" bike, I'd suggest buying a custom geometry frame built exactly to your body requirements. Look at builders like Moots, Kelly Bedford Customs, Seven and Firefly.
> 
> Personally, I'd skip the stock Litespeed frame. You can do better.


For a coffee shop bike?

As to the "lifetime" question, at the end of last year my 1998 Litespeed Vortex became my roller bike. It had 170,000 road miles plus probably 15,000 roller miles. Talking about years is meaningless without talking about miles. I only replaced the Vortex because it needed to have the component group replaced and it had a 1" threaded steerer. I replaced it with essentially the current version of the bike - A Lynskey R 450.

Any frame material can crack. The advantage to Ti is corrosion resistance.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Kerry Irons said:


> For a coffee shop bike?


Yes. Even for a coffee shop bike (and according to the OP, "a few uphill Time Trials").

It's a forever bike. Get it right the first time (and watch how its use expands beyond rides to the coffee shop.)


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

aclinjury said:


> Think about the highend carbon fiber bikes made just 5 years ago in 2010, do you still desire any of them?


Calfee Tetra-Pro
Colnago C-40

I've had a Litespeed Classic for about 17 years. I've owned a bunch of other bikes in that time, made of most of the materials and continue to update the "other" bike. The other bikes have all had virtues and I don't remember disliking any of them. In the past 10 years, some have been markedly better in some ways (lighter, stiffer, different) but I've never enjoyed riding any other bike more.

It's tough to quantify a bike's subjective quality based on an attribute. Sometimes you find one that sings to you.That Litespeed has had 4-5 groupsets on it. I'll never sell it.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

davidka said:


> I've had a Litespeed Classic for about 17 years. That Litespeed has had 4-5 groupsets on it. I'll never sell it.


Your experience reminds me of my 1999 Litespeed Tuscany. That was a great bike. I discovered after a while it really didn't fit me, so I sold it. Had it fit correctly, I'd still have it in the stable.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

tvad said:


> Your experience reminds me of my 1999 Litespeed Tuscany. That was a great bike. I discovered after a while it really didn't fit me, so I sold it. Had it fit correctly, I'd still have it in the stable.


Same here with two Classics. But it is a between size geom bike for me. Although I had not evolved so long and low when I got the first one. It was riding the 2000 one it became more clear it was too short, and the next size up was too tall. Maybe as I shrivel with age I will fit back on one again. Although I also thought very aggressive riding was not it's strong suit @ my weight/size/power. Something else changing with age, some aspects shriveling some increasing [blushes]. 2/3 ain't bad, it is very bad. 

But I did get tired, as I said previously with the monochromosis [did I spell it the same both times? ]


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

robt57 said:


> But I did get tired, as I said previously with the monochromosis [did I spell it the same both times? ]


My Litespeed Tuscany was raw titanium...not even a brushed finish. It looked very industrial and utilitarian. It was something I really dug, and I wouldn't change a thing if I were to buy a new Ti bike.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

tvad said:


> My Litespeed Tuscany was raw titanium...not even a brushed finish. It looked very industrial and utilitarian. It was something I really dug, and I wouldn't change a thing if I were to buy a new Ti bike.


I liked the brushed personally, a bit more glam. 

Did the Tuscany have the bright brushed as an option? I am thinking it did...

My first TI bike in 94-5, a Litespeed made Lemond. Too small and all straight tubes. It was basically a stretched out Ultimate of the day. Old shot after a saddle change before taking out for ride/adjustment.


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

I just looked up the T1 sl, and it claims to be the lightest ti production frame available. I don't think I would consider this frameset if you want to ride it hard for 15+ years, unless you are quite light. You can get a custom ti for a similar prices, built just for you, and probably with a little thicker tube walls than the T1 sl. I have 3 ti frames and find the ride of ti to be unique, if it's not over built. I've beat the crap out of a Clark Kent ti for 20 years. It was my only road bike until April, which is when I picked up a NOS 2006 Litespeed Siena, which I like, but wish it had round chainstays instead of ovalized, which makes the Siena not quite as brisk feeling, when stepped on out of the saddle.


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## single1x1 (Mar 26, 2005)

I have a 2005 Litespeed Tuscany I've had about 5 years, now with mostly 11 speed chorus on it, it is a great and pretty light bike, stiff, and fast and descends wonderfully. I'm sure I'll have it for a long time & @ about 16.5-16.75# in a 59CM size, it's definitely light enough. I also have a 2000 Klein quantum which weighs about a # more, and it's even stiffer and often just feels faster, but doesn't go on rides longer than 40 miles very often, cause it can start to beat you up, or cause some fatigue, I'm so glad it at least is new enough to have a carbon fork, even if it is a 1" thread less.
As the previous poster mentioned about the t1SL if it is the lightest Ti bike it might not be especially durable if used with a larger rider, I remember hearing about the Ghissiou or what ever the name of the lightest Litespeed Ti frame was around 2005 when I Tuscany came out and hearing about it being flexy or even breaking under more powerful riders.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

It's one thing to say the frame will not fall apart, but that doesn't mean you'll keep it forever. Todays' frames and forks are now being asked to accommodate disc brakes , electronic shifting and compared to a decade or two ago, downtubes are now larger stiffer tapered....


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

For those of you that have strong preferences for one frame material over all others, here is some food for thought from a reliable authority on cycling:

Frame Materials for the Touring Cyclist 
 
<!--[if lt IE 9]> <script src="//ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.10.2/jquery.min.js"></script> <![endif]-->*"Did you know that:*


Aluminum frames have a harsh ride? 
Titanium frames are soft and whippy? 
Steel frames go soft with age, but they have a nicer ride quality? 
England's Queen Elizabeth is a kingpin of the international drug trade? 
All of the above statements are equally false.

There is an amazing amount of folkloric "conventional wisdom" about bicycle frames and materials that is widely disseminated, but has no basis in fact.

The reality is that you can make a good bike frame out of any of these metals, with any desired riding qualities, by selecting appropriate tubing diameters, wall thicknesses and frame geometry."





<!--[if (gte IE 9) | (!IE)]><!--><!--<![endif]-->


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Lombard said:


> The reality is that you can make a good bike frame out of any of these metals, with any desired riding qualities, by selecting appropriate tubing diameters, wall thicknesses and frame geometry.



Not withstanding that a custom Ti frame will be 50% more cost than a custom steel, or more. Let's not forget this. Which is fine if you want one and have the coin. I have too much of a N+1 habit to have more than one Ti bike on my fixed income...
My wife's is not fixed, but I will be if I try to dip into it for bikes...

And I think the thing about the queen may actually be true.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

robt57 said:


> Not withstanding that a custom Ti frame will be 50% more cost than a custom steel, or more. Let's not forget this. Which is fine if you want one and have the coin. I have too much of a N+1 habit to have more than one Ti bike on my fixed income...
> My wife's is not fixed, but I will be if I try to dip into it for bikes...
> 
> And I think the thing about the queen may actually be true.


OTOH it is very nive having a frameset that you know will not rust, that you don't have to sweat chipped paint, and unlike carbon fiber you don't have to worry about damage from casual airheadedness breaking the frameset tubes.


----------



## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Marc said:


> OTOH it is very nive having a frameset that you know will not rust, that you don't have to sweat chipped paint, and unlike carbon fiber you don't have to worry about damage from casual airheadedness breaking the frameset tubes.



I have a72 Paramount and this year sold an 84 Colnago SLX and a Bridgestone and a 80s Panasonic lugged steel bike. None had rust, so I don't put much into the rust as a Benifit.

My 15 year old custom got frame saver treated originally, and again in 2009 when I put a new groupo in it. But thanks for reminding me to do that to my new steel frame. 

As to chipped paint, I touch up and ward off local rust spots, and my powder coated bikes have unreal durability of finish. The 15 year old one has not a chip, just spider web light scratches in the the top clear PC. My wet painted 90s Reynolds has it;s share of touch ups to be sure.

Which all does not mean I would not have liked to have the custom steel have been a custom Ti.  But I would have had it Powder coated except the the BB area and drive chain stay etc. But I got too many sneakers pretty much. 

But having plenty of bikes to ride, I recognize that they all stay in better shape than if I was doing all my riding on just one, to be sure.


----------



## cnardone (Jun 28, 2014)

Kerry Irons said:


> For a coffee shop bike?
> 
> I replaced it with essentially the current version of the bike - A Lynskey R 450.


Hey Kerry,
Probably slightly off topic. and I can probably search for it, but how are you enjoying the 450?


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I kept my first lifetime bike 7 years. My second lifetime bike went out after 30 years. Now I am on my 3rd lifetime bike and have 3 years into it. However now I am retired and like to work in my shop so I thought in January I would build a frame and see how it goes. It will be fun. Anyway good luck on the Ti bike and I am sure you will love it. I have never ridden on a Ti frame or a Carbon frame. I did have an old aluminum Cannondale I rode to work. It did not break or anything but when I retired I dropped it off at the thrift shop.


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## ex_machina (Oct 20, 2015)

DrSmile said:


> *I have Ti bikes and they ride well, but I also have Steel and Carbon and even Alumin(i)um bikes and they ride just as well, meaning I can't tell a difference that 5 psi of tire pressure wouldn't account for.* I do think Ti is great for longevity. I have corroded through steel and Alumin(i)um frames and I have broken carbon frames, and had carbon frames become more flexible after many thousands of miles. Ti could also break of course, especially at the welds, so choosing a quality frame maker is a good idea (nope, not suggesting one because I'm not stirring the hornet nest). I use a significant amount of stainless and Ti hardware for longevity, and I wouldn't mind adding a Reynolds 953 frame as my next build, although that means getting murdered in my sleep by the wife. One of the cautions with Ti is that stuff tends to creak, so maintenance is important. Personally I also have had trouble with corrosion of Alumin(i)um parts directly in contact with Ti, my alien sweat tends to think the part is an anode and attacks it pretty aggressively. For example, I've had to put electrical tape under my FDs on my Ti frames or else the corrosion builds up under the clamp (where you can't rinse) which eventually "pops" the clamp.





veloduffer said:


> I think you really want a specific build more than material. *All materials can be customized to certain ride qualities -- from bone rattling stiff to noodle-like. I've owned titanium bikes from almost all the major mfrs, incl Cambridge built Merlins, Lynskey built Litespeeds and many custom. They all have different ride qualities. *
> 
> If you're looking for a bike that is durable- one that would likely survive a crash and endure the pratfalls and wear from everyday life, than a titanium or steel bike is your material.


I test rode some carbon fiber bikes and models from different manufacturers tend to ride very differently, ranging from very smooth and compliant to very stiff, borderline harsh.


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

I've got a buddy who got rid of his Tuscany to get a Moots. He likes the Moots for the bling factor, but wishes that the Moots rode as nice as the Tuscany. Both frames had the same bars, seatpost, saddle, fork, & wheels; so we really are comparing apples 2 apples. 

I had a 1988 Cannondale, so understand the speed and the sting of an oversized aluminum frame.


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

robt57 said:


> I guess my way of saying I'd rather have custom steel than peg Ti.  But Custom Ti of course...  Again, as I originally said, if you can afford it and want it...
> 
> 
> But let me ask this among Ti fans participating. Powder coated Ti, or definitely Nude?
> And obviously to the OP, is it the Nude Ti, or at least that aspect spinning your wheels toward Ti?


Powder coated. Plain Ti is still pretty, though.


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## e92mech (Nov 17, 2015)

I am riding my lifetime bike, which is a vintage 2002 Tom Kellogg custom Spectrum titanium "super" with Campagnolo Record 10 speed. Upgraded with a new chain and cassette, shifting like butter like the day I first rode it, there is *absolutely nothing* that has come to market since then that would get me to even consider parting ways. The frame is custom, fits as if it were surgically implanted into my body, rides with a better combination of dampening and road feel than any carbon frame I've ever been on, and for the ~400 gram weight penalty you pay over a reasonable carbon frame, you get paid the dividend of near-invincible durability. Carbon certainly has its virtues, but I think most of them come into play when your riding is exclusively dedicated hardcore racing and someone else is paying both your up front costs and your potential replacement costs.

The only thing in my mind better than titanium for a lifetime bike is expertly crafted custom titanium.


----------



## Bikephelps (Jan 23, 2012)

I like the Strong. You don't see green bikes that often. Of course the Strong would look good in several colors.


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## rider9 (May 27, 2011)

If you think you're going to live forever, think again.

That said, titanium is a sweet choice for bike frame material. I have a Serotta that is great. I plan to ride it until I can't anymore. I have heard good things about Moots. I have a friend who rides a Lynskey. He likes it. He commutes on it.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Titanium if properly built will last and last , just like Steel will, however be real the odds you keep the bike around that long are small, technology changes and the frame may not support what you want , at least not easily. Just think eps and thru-axle disc. That said, I think Titanium makes for a smarter bike for group rides or for traveling and should look like new far longer than say carbon.


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## 4slomo (Feb 11, 2008)

I bought a semi-custom steel touring frame in 1976, built it, and still ride it as my sole road bike. The short front/long rear brake reach, limits options to replace the brakes. The 27" diameter wheel geometry limits replacement rim selection. The fork steerer tube will not accommodate contemporary stems. At some point, any frame will become "obsolete" if you are unable to find acceptable replacement parts.

I did order a custom Ti frame two years ago, but have not yet assembled it. One of these days I probably will. I don't expect to ride it for the next 40 years, but 20 years is possible.



ttk5180 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

ttk5180 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...


I think it depends on the tubing and geometry. If you were to spec say an evergreen slx or an axiom slx, then I think the answer is yes it will be stiff, light ,and compliant. Probably one of the best examples of what Ti can do.


----------



## Scar (Sep 13, 2014)

I had a custom built Jim Redcay steel frame that I ordered as a 31 year old. Great frame and great ride. However, that 31 year old me was in excellent health and riding form with a different, more aggressive riding style than the 61 year old me. The 61 year old me also had a herniated disc in my lower back and a right knee replacement. 

The bike? It was still a jewel after 30 years but, _*I *_had changed and it no longer suited my body or riding style. I found that I rode my Litespeed most of the time and the custom steel bike stayed in the garage. My body did change over the years, same as everyone else. At 61 years old I finally sold it to a collector.

I now have three bikes: the 2003 Litespeed, a custom geometry Lynskey and a Lynskey Helix. Each has it's own ride unique ride quality even though they are all made of the same Ti material. I absolutely love riding each of them. They all fit the current me and riding style better than did the custom bike which was made for a 31 year old.

Are my current Ti bikes "forever bikes"? They probably are but, I'm not. 

OP, I believe it is best to pick a bike that you enjoy riding now, because none of us know what the coming years will bring. I love the ride and feel of Ti bikes, but if it is well taken care of, most quality built bikes should last you as long as you're likely to want to keep them.

Just my opinion.


----------



## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Great post Scar.


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

n2deep said:


> I'm a little old school. For me, its aesthetics, I like bare Ti or steel frames and TIG welds/flanged brazed joints. *IMHO, stainless does not make a great frame material due to its mechanical properties especially when compared to some of the great steel frames that are available today.* A great frame should be a work of art-craftsmanship, the dropouts should not look like drilled pipe plugs, the badge should show the makers pride.. If it's ugly,, pass it up,, life's too short to ride an ugly bike.


I'm genuinely interested in your opinion regarding which mechanical properties of the stainless steel tubesets available today (953, XCr, MS3, 931, 921) would make them less desirable than other non-stainless air-hardening steel tubesets like 853, S3, Spirit, etc.

Since all steels from basic 1020 carbon steel to the latest and greatest air-hardening high strength stainless steels like 953 have virtually the same density (~8 grams per cubic centimeter) and virtually the same "stiffness" or Modulus of Elasticity (E) of 200 GPa, they're equally heavy and equally stiff for a given amount of material.

Where different alloys differ is in tensile strength, yield strength, and elongation (a measure of brittleness/ductility). Most steel alloys used for bicycle frame tubing has elongation of ~10% to 15%, which essentially means it will bend rather than break when stressed beyond the yield strength.

Here is a table comparing physical properties and chemistry of the alloys of the five available stainless steel tubesets. All of these alloys may be used to make frames that are lugged, fillet brazed, or TIG-welded depending on your aesthetic tastes.










Since all steel alloys are equally stiff, the only way to make a steel frame stiffer is to increase the wall thickness of the tubing, the diameter of the tubing, or both. Of course, increasing the wall thickness or diameter of the tubing increases the amount of material used and consequently the weight of the frame.

This is where yield strength and tensile strength come in because tubes made with stronger alloys may be drawn with thinner walls (down to 0.3mm wall thickness in the case of 953). To restore stiffness, oversize diameter tubing was invented.

Now you may think that tubing with 0.3mm walls would be very prone to denting, but that's where hardness comes to the rescue. 953 has a Rockwell hardness of 44, and from my 8 years and tens of thousands of miles riding a 953 stainless frame I can tell you that I have yet to have the tiniest dent in any of the tubes. I haven't babied it either. This bike has become the "go to" for 95% of my rides because the ride is superb, it fits me like a glove, and is reasonably light (61cm frame is 1650g)

To compare the properties of various tubesets, framebuilder Carl Strong has posted some of the common tubes and their properties here:

Tubing Information | Strong Frames


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

I have a bike in every material. My favorite is my 2008 Lynskey R320 at 12.67 lbs its a very light bike. I also have over 35,000 miles on it and will ride it until I can no longer ride. The fit, feel and responsiveness excites me every time I ride it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

The only bikes that aren't 'forever' bikes are ones made poorly or utilizing a bad design for the material. I have a 1991 Look KG96 that's still fine to ride. My first good racing bike, a Vitus 979 lasted about a year before it got hung up on the wall as art (bonds fell apart in multiple places). The era of thin-walled aluminum frames were also not lifetime bikes, in part because they were so easy to ding.

Otherwise, just get a bike you like and take care of it - it will last either as long as you or until you eye something new.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Ti is better in the rain and stands up better to small rocks , debris and getting scratched, but human nature being what it is and the bike industry working hard to make you think your bike is obsolete and you'll be getting rid of it at some point due to bordom, desire for electronic shifting disc brakes or a sudden desire to go carbon and shed two pounds of bike weight.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

ttk5180 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I would like your opinion on Ti frames. I know there are a ton of forums out there about Ti vs. carbon vs. steel, etc, therefore I apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you want aesthetics more than anything else. Going carbon with deep carbon wheels will solve your question. If you go the Ti route, you'll be joining the senior citizens crowd which is like being seen in a Buick rather than a sports car.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Keoki said:


> It sounds like you want aesthetics more than anything else. Going carbon with deep carbon wheels will solve your question. If you go the Ti route, you'll be joining the senior citizens crowd which is like being seen in a Buick rather than a sports car.


Check out the Firefly Ti-Carbon road bike. This is not your father's Oldsmobile.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

Trek_5200 said:


> Check out the Firefly Ti-Carbon road bike. This is not your father's Oldsmobile.


Just checked it out. It's like the new Buick trying to get rid of the old image. Still a Buick though.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

we have very different views of what constitutes a great looking bike.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Keoki said:


> It sounds like you want aesthetics more than anything else. Going carbon with deep carbon wheels will solve your question. If you go the Ti route, you'll be joining the senior citizens crowd which is like being seen in a Buick rather than a sports car.




Harsh analogy, don't you think? I would equate a Buick to a beach cruiser or comfort bike.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

Trek_5200 said:


> we have very different views of what constitutes a great looking bike.


True. 

BTW, for curiosity, how old are you?


----------



## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

:lol:


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Keoki said:


> True.
> 
> BTW, for curiosity, how old are you?


You do sound young.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Keoki said:


> It sounds like you want aesthetics more than anything else. Going carbon with deep carbon wheels will solve your question. If you go the Ti route, you'll be joining the senior citizens crowd which is like being seen in a Buick rather than a sports car.


Don't listen to him ttk. A classic steel or Ti bike is like a '67 Mustang or a GTO, whereas a plastic bike is like a econo box with a huge muffler and a cheesy bolt-on spoiler


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Harsh analogy, don't you think? I would equate a Buick to a beach cruiser or comfort bike.


+ 1 agree 100 %


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

DaveG said:


> Don't listen to him ttk. A classic steel or Ti bike is like a '67 Mustang or a GTO, whereas a plastic bike is like a econo box with a huge muffler and a cheesy bolt-on spoiler


So which one of these groups will likely drive a 67 Mustang or a Classic GTO? 

A) 20 something year old. 
Or 
B) some dude in his 60s


----------



## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

and which will likely drive the rice burner with an oversized muffler and tacky spoiler?


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

pone said:


> and which will likely drive the rice burner with an oversized muffler and tacky spoiler?


No one does that anymore! That was played out in the 90s. The new trend is stance nation. Get with the times man!


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Keoki said:


> So which one of these groups will likely drive a 67 Mustang or a Classic GTO?
> 
> A) 20 something year old.
> Or
> B) some dude in his 60s



Yep, you do sound like a youngun.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pone said:


> and which will likely drive the rice burner with an oversized muffler and tacky spoiler?




Hey, I like my rice rocket. It's all stock though. No tacky mods, no pretense, just fun and great mpg.


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## e92mech (Nov 17, 2015)

For comparison, my fully-loaded 2002 Kellogg Spectrum titanium with Campy Record 10, original Alpha Q carbon fork, Record carbon seat post, Avocet saddle, bottles, frame pump, computer and new Hed Belgium tubeless wheels weighs 18lbs.

A 2016 carbon monocoque frame with Campy Super Record EPS could maybe be 2.5-3 lbs (~1300 gr) lighter. At least 500 grams of that weight saving, if not more, would be from updating the groupset, as I am still running forged cranks. Lighter saddles and bars can also be had.

My Spectrum absolutely eats the road like a monster. It's completely balanced, responsive, stable, comfortable, indestructible, *custom*. For $11,000 I could upgrade to a full carbon frame with EPS. It would conservatively shed 900 grams, 1200-1300 if I went all out. It would also introduce for me the variable of knowing I could break the carbon frame more easily with misuse, and I might not even know it until failure mode. Also, although obviously variable and subjective, I am dubious that the ride qualities I prefer would be available to me in carbon, partly due to lack of availability of custom sizing, geometry and tubing selection when we are talking about monocoque construction, and most (though not all e.g. Parlee) carbon is not available in custom sizing. Conversely, the ride I currently have with custom Ti is absolutely sublime. (N.B. If I really wanted carbon I think the option for me would be the Seven 622SLX with titanium lugs and custom carbon tubing lengths. That bike fairly defeats most of my arguments here.)

Cost also matters to me. If I were a sponsored professional and I needed to win at all costs, I would happily ride ultra stiff lightweight carbon. The design sacrifices would be worthwhile to meet my goal and reliability would be a non-issue because there would be a team car behind me with a free replacement. Custom titanium up-front cost was very high for me, but my return on investment has been spectacular as it has proven incredibly durable. (Not to say that carbon can't, but still.)

My best analogy would be cars. Sure, you could choose to daily drive an open-top Formula 1 car (modern carbon monocoque frame). But even as a hardcore enthusiast, that would get old quickly because of the tradeoffs. Alternatively, you could drive an M3 or a 911, which is the peak of performance in a street car, beyond which more performance can be had but always at the cost of something. There just is no free lunch. The design cost of titanium is slightly more weight than carbon. 

To me, my Ti bike is the 911. Just because Ferrari F1 cars exist doesn't mean I want to drive one every day. I admire carbon bikes for all their virtues, of which there are many. For me, the very enthusiastic amateur, Ti just makes a whole lot of sense.

Last thought: I recently slimmed down from 154lbs to 148lbs, for ~4% improvement in strength/weight ratio. Cost: $0.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

DaveG said:


> Don't listen to him ttk. A classic steel or Ti bike is like a '67 Mustang or a GTO, whereas a plastic bike is like a econo box with a huge muffler and a cheesy bolt-on spoiler


By your analogy, a fully decked out carbon with carbon wheels like a Super Six Evo HiMod with Enve or Zipp wheels would be a Honda Civics?


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Keoki said:


> No one does that anymore! That was played out in the 90s. The new trend is stance nation. Get with the times man!


I see an awful lot of them. Always gets a laugh


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

e92mech said:


> For comparison, my fully-loaded 2002 Kellogg Spectrum titanium with Campy Record 10, original Alpha Q carbon fork, Record carbon seat post, Avocet saddle, bottles, frame pump, computer and new Hed Belgium tubeless wheels weighs 18lbs.
> 
> A 2016 carbon monocoque frame with Campy Super Record EPS could maybe be 2.5-3 lbs (~1300 gr) lighter. At least 500 grams of that weight saving, if not more, would be from updating the groupset, as I am still running forged cranks. Lighter saddles and bars can also be had.
> 
> ...


If I had the opportunity to drive a F1 car on a daily basis, I would do it. Fire suit, gloves and Helmet the whole 9. Hearing that V12 scream in my ear would compensate the harsh road manners.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

Keoki said:


> No one does that anymore! That was played out in the 90s. The new trend is stance nation. Get with the times man!


that wasn't the question.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

pone said:


> and which will likely drive the rice burner with an oversized muffler and tacky spoiler?


Most likely it'll be some dude in his 50s going through a mid life crisis. =P


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Keoki said:


> Most likely it'll be some dude in his 50s going through a mid life crisis. =P


I'm 53. My cars are a mini-van and a Honda Fit (spoiler free) My midlife crisis was a Colnago Master Light with Campy


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

It's hard for me to imagine a CFRP frame, with the material's inherently low elongation of 1% - 3%, as suitable for a "forever" bike.

If durability over a long lifetime of frequent use is a primary consideration, a less brittle (more ductile) material with elongation of 10% or more would be a much better choice.


----------



## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

DaveG said:


> I'm 53. My cars are a mini-van and a Honda Fit (spoiler free) My midlife crisis was a Colnago Master Light with Campy


I saw this one dude that modified his mini van where he took out the 2nd and 3rd row seats then reinforced with some braces that he can secure his 3 bikes (no without taking off the rear wheel) and had hooks on the sides for the front wheels. He also modded his engine to 300 wheel horse power. One of the coolest things I've ever seen.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Keoki said:


> I saw this one dude that modified his mini van where he took out the 2nd and 3rd row seats then reinforced with some braces that he can secure his 3 bikes (no without taking off the rear wheel) and had hooks on the sides for the front wheels. He also modded his engine to 300 wheel horse power. One of the coolest things I've ever seen.


I've been thinking about converting my mini van into a replica of the Scooby Doo van. Just need to find the time. Zooiks!


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## mmbuckwa (Dec 27, 2008)

I have a question about titanium, having never owned one. Is there any decent budget ti bikes, besides bikesdirect.com? I lost my bike to car crash this week and am looking at options.
Thanks.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mmbuckwa said:


> Is there any decent budget ti bikes?


Define "budget".


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

mmbuckwa said:


> I have a question about titanium, having never owned one. Is there any decent budget ti bikes, besides bikesdirect.com? I lost my bike to car crash this week and am looking at options.
> Thanks.


The only "budget" Ti bike I am aware of is Habanero Cycles. These are made in China and go for about a grand. They have been around a long time. I have personally never seen one up close


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

mmbuckwa said:


> I have a question about titanium, having never owned one. Is there any decent budget ti bikes, besides bikesdirect.com? I lost my bike to car crash this week and am looking at options.
> Thanks.


Try Carl Strong Frames. They're a little less expensive


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

mmbuckwa said:


> I have a question about titanium, having never owned one. Is there any decent budget ti bikes, besides bikesdirect.com? I lost my bike to car crash this week and am looking at options.
> Thanks.


Ebay or whatever source you have to look used. I don't think ti tubes have advanced that much in recent years and there's not much chance of 'hidden' damage ect. so no real downside to buying used with Ti IMO. 
And it seems like the people who buy Ti are often the same people that flip bikes often so you generally see some really good used Ti available.

Ti is usually custom though so make sure you don't get one designed for a freak of nature or someone much heavier or lighter than you.


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## mmbuckwa (Dec 27, 2008)

Bikesdirect has their ti bikes starting at +/- $2000, as does Lynksey. I know there is a lot better but is their quality on par with other Ti frames? I looked at the lynskey link and they are better I assume? I am not sold on ti, but curious because I never had one. I would want a better frame with a lesser component group at the same price point.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I'd avoid any used Ti bikes on ebay that were customs. the fitting may not work for you or the tube selection may be out right inappropriate. at least with a stock bike you're more likely to be in the ballpark of a good fit/tube selection.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Trek_5200 said:


> Try Carl Strong Frames. They're a little less expensive


Carl's Ti frames (frame only) start at $3,000. His double-butted Ti frames (frame only) start at $3,400. You get what you pay for, but they're certainly not inexpensive.

Carl Strong Frame Pricing


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

cheaper than seven or firefly for sure


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> I'd avoid any used Ti bikes on ebay that were customs. the fitting may not work for you or the tube selection may be out right inappropriate. at least with a stock bike you're more likely to be in the ballpark of a good fit/tube selection.


I'm guessing you didn't see what I added when I did an edit. Good point, but most people who get custom end up with something not much if any different than a typical stock bike so as long as the information is available there's not need to stay away from custom for someone else as a rule.


----------



## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

mmbuckwa said:


> Bikesdirect has their ti bikes starting at +/- $2000, as does Lynksey. I know there is a lot better but is their quality on par with other Ti frames? I looked at the lynskey link and they are better I assume? I am not sold on ti, but curious because I never had one. I would want a better frame with a lesser component group at the same price point.


i'm no expert on ti, but i have zero complaints about my Lynskey frame. i would say that they aren't the best at fitting for components and some of their policy statements are a little more ambitious than their service after the sale.


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## sasquatch16 (Feb 7, 2013)

Trek_5200 said:


> I'd avoid any used Ti bikes on ebay that were customs. the fitting may not work for you or the tube selection may be out right inappropriate. at least with a stock bike you're more likely to be in the ballpark of a good fit/tube selection.


i am a big guy borderline able to find a stock bike to fit comfortably. Found a Seven frame and fork that met my dimensions. I Calle Seven with serial number to determine if the frame was built for a tall skinny guy or a tall heavy guy and they advise me appropriately. I was luck and got a frame that was at least a third of the price as a new one.


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## e92mech (Nov 17, 2015)

Lynskey seems to have some (relatively) inexpensive Ti frames. I've not ridden one, but they seem to be well regarded, and their prices in the $2000 range are less than others.

While I recognize it's prohibitive for many, if one can surmount the initial outlay, I stand by my conviction that a custom Spectrum or Seven is the ultimate, and while it is extremely expensive up front, if you plan on actually keeping it for a long time the cost amortizes over many years and you get your return on investment, and then some.

I just rebuild my Record shifters and threw some new wheels on my Spectrum and I'm good to go!

Another question is if you want to truly get a forever Ti bike, how can you best future-proof it? I sometimes wish I got S&S couplers...


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Looking on eBay, I see a few reasonably priced Serottas and Litespeeds. Are they any good?


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I just don't picture this as the factory bikes direct uses....

https://donalrey.exposure.co/firefly-bicycles


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Brand new Litespeed Ti bikes are actually cheaper than most carbon bikes with equal components. Maybe not as good as a Seven, but I know a couple who each has one and they're quite happy with them. Then again, they may just be easy to please:

Adrenaline Bikes


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## tfh909 (Jun 28, 2012)

I have Serotta Legend Ti that I had custom built in 2000. I think the combination of Custom Ti frame, Carbon Fiber/Steel Fork and Carbon Fiber Seatpost with all Campy Record has made it a "forever" bike for me. I have a few other bikes in the stall but this is really the bike I ride. In my late 60's now and the era and tear it saves on my body is incredible. I am a long legged 6'3" weighing in 190 lbs and this was an excellent choice for me


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## tabl10s (Nov 13, 2002)

robt57 said:


> These guy might make you a Ti Telecaster Mike.
> 
> metaal, steel, metal, stalen, body, guitars, custom, steelcaster,metalcaster, D&C, belgium, telesteel, telecaster, gibson, firebird


Blatant copy of an american company doing the same thing.


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## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

I've ridden a Bianchi Ti Mega Tube since the late 90's. Yes it will last for ever. Ride? I've ridden this Ti and a few carbon bikes. In all honesty give me steel for ride. There's nothing negative about the Ti and it's stiff enough for me.








I've stripped all the Shimano off the X4 and replacing that with C Record. Should be ready for L'Eroica next year.


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

Go for it and you won't regret it. 
These are my rides. I understand why people get carbon over Ti. 
Carbon is a very nice material and it is light and stiff. Good for te ultimate racing bike where every watt needs to be put to use. Also it is fragile, therefore it needs replacement more often which adds/helps to the consumer society we live in. The pros change them every season. I have friends that race pro tour and have told me that they change the frames 2-3 times in a season. Enough said. 
For us the pragmatics that want that unique hand made everlasting unique piece of craftsmanship Ti is the go to. It is expensive and slightly heavier than carbon but alas, I'm not racing pro tour or anything similar anymore. These are
My two bikes. Road and mountain. 
The road one is a litespeed T1 2015 @ 15.8lbs. It could be lighter but then I don't care. It cost me around 6k to put together but again i don't care. It has etap and Reynolds custom wheels. My favorite part is the seat tube. Bought it at aliexpress for 100 bucks and it looks awesome!
The mountain bike is a lynskey pro29 @23.5lbs. XT group with custom made wheels and again Chinese Ti seat tube from aliexpress. 
The ride is the best ever. With the hydro formed tubes and manipulation butting these are stiff bikes. I'm 6 ft 205lbs and they are as stiff as they come. You have to make sure that you get stiff frames since Ti has to be manipulated to achieve good levels of stiffness for today standards. 
Good luck! 










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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

This thread is 2+ years old. I assume the OP has made up his mind at this point.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

My take on it is this: Usually, it's seasoned cyclists who have ridden everything else that go Ti. They've ridden everything else. It must be that good. If you look at the benefits of Ti, they outweigh the negatives by a large margin. I say go for it. I hope one day to own a Ti bike myself.


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

terbennett said:


> My take on it is this: Usually, it's seasoned cyclists who have ridden everything else that go Ti. They've ridden everything else. It must be that good. If you look at the benefits of Ti, they out weigh the negatives by a large margin. I say go for it. I hope one day to own a Ti bike myself.


Correct. Ti has the best properties of all bike frames and it is very utilitarian. I own 3 Ti bikes. 2 lynskeys and a litespeed. My take is this. You can make a very light Ti bike. As light or lighter than carbon. The key for stiffness which is the downside of Ti is in butting. Butting and tube molding make the bikes stiff and low weight by placing material where is needed. Now Ti in itself is not more expensive than carbon. The reason why Ti is more expensive is demand and time consumption in Making the frame. There are some carbon frames more expensive than Ti frames. Pinarello, look, trek etc. 
Now if you are past the carbon hype and realize that you want to enjoy riding in a pleasant more comfortable way, in a light bike that will outlast you what would you do? 
Maybe with the years comes the wisdom that points towards a light, comfortable long lasting frame. 


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

terbennett said:


> My take on it is this: Usually, it's seasoned cyclists who have ridden everything else that go Ti. They've ridden everything else. It must be that good. If you look at the benefits of Ti, they out weigh the negatives by a large margin. I say go for it. I hope one day to own a Ti bike myself.


Ti makes a good transitional step on the way from soulless plastic to the ultimate material, steel


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

DaveG said:


> Ti makes a good transitional step on the way from soulless plastic to the ultimate material, steel


I was thinking about getting a feska stainless steel. It is heavier and not as corrosion resistant as Ti. I saw one for 19lbs+


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## brownplus (Jul 30, 2004)

*what a bunch of hooey*

I've owned everything.

Steel is real...doubt 90% of people need a custom frame.....really?

And forever? A bike I will never sell...a centurion tange 1 has been through "everything" and will not die even with rust in the BB etc....

rides better than my past Ti bikes, is cheap as they come used....and will outlast me or you.

sorry but, bikee peeps are so stupid when they overlook steel for longevity and performance.

Yah, an old post i know, but take it for wiw on experience.


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

brownplus said:


> I've owned everything.
> 
> Steel is real...doubt 90% of people need a custom frame.....really?
> 
> ...


I agree with you but there are a couple things to consider. 
Chromoly rusts (a lot) for me at least is not practical because I sweat like a monster. When I had my chromoly frames I had to paint them every year. 
Steel then is heavier than Ti. 
Are you talking about stainless steel? Because those are expensive and I haven't seen many out there. When I build my Ti bike I took into consideration my sweat and how bad it is. Painting a frame every couple/yearly, no thanks. 
Ti when it rusts the rust is a thin white layer that protects the Ti under it. 
Yes chromoly is nice but you can get a nice Ti frame when the right tubing for your desired use that is not flexy at all. 



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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

charlitin said:


> I agree with you but there are a couple things to consider.
> Chromoly rusts (a lot) for me at least is not practical because I sweat like a monster. When I had my chromoly frames I had to paint them every year.
> Steel then is heavier than Ti.
> Are you talking about stainless steel? Because those are expensive and I haven't seen many out there. When I build my Ti bike I took into consideration my sweat and how bad it is. Painting a frame every couple/yearly, no thanks.
> ...


If you had to repaint your steel frames every year your sweat must be like those creatures in the Aliens movies. I think the whole rust argument is overstated. While I have touched up some rust spots on my steel bikes I have a 17 year old steel Torelli and a 20 year old steel Coppi that are still doing just fine. I have no issue with Ti (got one) but I still prefer a nice lugged steel bike


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

charlitin said:


> Chromoly rusts (a lot) for me at least is not practical because I sweat like a monster. When I had my chromoly frames I had to paint them every year.


Rust may be a problem for CroMo bikes if you regularly ride in rain, snow, salted roads, etc. For fair weather riders, I can't imagine it would be much of a problem as long as you store the bike inside the house where it belongs.

Paint every year? What kind of crappy paint are you using that you need to repeat this process every year? I don't even paint my iron railings that often.

Sweat? I sweat profusely! A scull cap under my helmet and a good wicking jersey and shorts prevents anything from dripping.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Rust may be a problem for CroMo bikes if you regularly ride in rain, snow, salted roads, etc. For fair weather riders, I can't imagine it would be much of a problem as long as you store the bike inside the house where it belongs.
> 
> Paint every year? What kind of crappy paint are you using that you need to repeat this process every year? I don't even paint my iron railings that often.
> 
> Sweat? I sweat profusely! A scull cap under my helmet and a good wicking jersey and shorts prevents anything from dripping.


Maybe he misspelled his name.

Charlatan may be the correct spelling


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I have rusted through 2 steel frames (an old Raleigh and a Ritchey). And yes it was sweat, it didn't corrode from the inside. I now have 3 Ti frames, but the problem isn't completely solved with Ti because my sweat corrodes through aluminum too, I have popped several front derailleur clamps because of the corrosion build up between the clamp and the Ti frame. I've also corroded completely through aluminum bars despite rinsing the bar tape once a week, and corroded through the Campy nuts that hold on the levers. And before the bike care arguments begin, I clean my bike after every ride. There must be a certain sweat type that corrodes heavily and I have it, because a lot of my friends pretty much never clean their bikes, sweat a lot, and their steel bikes are just fine.


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Rust may be a problem for CroMo bikes if you regularly ride in rain, snow, salted roads, etc. For fair weather riders, I can't imagine it would be much of a problem as long as you store the bike inside the house where it belongs.
> 
> Paint every year? What kind of crappy paint are you using that you need to repeat this process every year? I don't even paint my iron railings that often.
> 
> Sweat? I sweat profusely! A scull cap under my helmet and a good wicking jersey and shorts prevents anything from dripping.


Well my friend. They call me sweaty! Multiply whatever you think you sweat x10 and then add some more. While I ride I drip down when I move my head. My headsets drip rust after a ride and I have to continue spraying them with lithium grease after each ride. They last me about a year before they get loose and need replacement. 
So no steel for me since that was one of my mayor concerns. RUST! And I live by the ocean and ride right next to it 5-6x week. 
Weight was another factor. My bike with the litespeed T1 frame medium and my current set up is at 15.8lbs. It could be lighter but not by much maybe a flat 15. But I will be trading durability and comfort for stiffness. 
Another factor was that of all metals that are used to make bicycles Ti is the most durable with the best tensile strength, fatigue profile over time and lightest of them all. 
Another factor was cost vs durability. Ti requires no painting, naked looks cool, therefore last longer with less maintenance. 
I took all these into consideration when I planned my build. Weight, durability, ease of care, impact resistance and stiffness. Money was a factor which is something people might want to look into. Although when you look at durability and ease of maintenance Ti is a win win. That throws the whole price factor out of the window. 
If you don't care about having the same bike for a long time to pass onto your kids, want a low maintenance frame, lighter than any other alloy out there then Ti is the best choice. 



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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

DrSmile said:


> I've also corroded completely through aluminum bars despite rinsing the bar tape once a week, and corroded through the Campy nuts that hold on the levers. And before the bike care arguments begin, I clean my bike after every ride. There must be a certain sweat type that corrodes heavily and I have it, because* a lot of my friends pretty much never clean their bikes, sweat a lot, and their steel bikes are just fine*.


You have just proven my point I try to make to those who may be "loving their bike to death". Experts here disagree, but I can't imagine "rinsing" a bike as with a garden hose, is very good for it. You are taking that sweaty bar tape and turning it into soaking wet bar tape with salty sweat mixed in that will take even longer to dry than if you just put the bike away as-is. A better idea would be to pad dry with a dry cloth as best you can.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> You have just proven my point I try to make to those who may be "loving their bike to death". Experts here disagree, but I can't imagine "rinsing" a bike as with a garden hose, is very good for it. You are taking that sweaty bar tape and turning it into soaking wet bar tape with salty sweat mixed in that will take even longer to dry than if you just put the bike away as-is. A better idea would be to pad dry with a dry cloth as best you can.


I'll wipe it down with a damp rag after a sweaty ride and hose it down when dirty. My headsets take a beating from my left knee, though only cosmetic. My left foot stays clipped in while stopped, and resting my leg up against the bike puts my sweaty knee up against the headset. Same for the stem, though not as much as there is only minor contact to stem.

Just honest wear that comes from use. I've got bikes that I've had 30yrs that haven't succumbed to rust yet.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

charlitin said:


> Well my friend. They call me sweaty! Multiply whatever you think you sweat x10 and then add some more. While I ride I drip down when I move my head. My headsets drip rust after a ride and I have to continue spraying them with lithium grease after each ride. They last me about a year before they get loose and need replacement.
> So no steel for me since that was one of my mayor concerns. RUST! And I live by the ocean and.....


Ahhhh, you live by the ocean in a hot, humid climate. Salt spray and humidity are probably just as much to blame as anything. 

Sweat pours down from my head too unless I wear a skull cap. Do you wear one? They work:

https://tinyurl.com/yabg7jze


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

DrSmile said:


> I have rusted through 2 steel frames (an old Raleigh and a Ritchey). And yes it was sweat, it didn't corrode from the inside. I now have 3 Ti frames, but the problem isn't completely solved with Ti because my sweat corrodes through aluminum too, I have popped several front derailleur clamps because of the corrosion build up between the clamp and the Ti frame. I've also corroded completely through aluminum bars despite rinsing the bar tape once a week, and corroded through the Campy nuts that hold on the levers. And before the bike care arguments begin, I clean my bike after every ride. There must be a certain sweat type that corrodes heavily and I have it, because a lot of my friends pretty much never clean their bikes, sweat a lot, and their steel bikes are just fine.


Obvious cause: your mother was abducted by aliens and you carry their DNA


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Ahhhh, you live by the ocean in a hot, humid climate. Salt spray and humidity are probably just as much to blame as anything.
> 
> Sweat pours down from my head too unless I wear a skull cap. Do you wear one? They work:
> 
> https://tinyurl.com/yabg7jze


My wife bought me a couple. I tried them but all they do is delay the inevitable. After 1 he they are drenched in sweat and dripping profusely. More than without. Whenever I ride during the summer every 2hr ride I get home and I can squeeze my clothing and it will drip. My socks are wet and I can also squeeze them. That is how bad I sweat. 


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

charlitin said:


> My wife bought me a couple. I tried them but all they do is delay the inevitable. After 1 he they are drenched in sweat and dripping profusely. More than without. Whenever I ride during the summer every 2hr ride I get home and I can squeeze my clothing and it will drip. My socks are wet and I can also squeeze them. That is how bad I sweat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yikes! But come to think of it, if I lived in Miami, I would probably sweat that way as well. Not that we don't get plenty of hot, hazy, humid weather in NJ. Though when highs are above 90, I go out early or choose easier routes.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

Try sweat gutr. Works for some.


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> I have rusted through 2 steel frames (an old Raleigh and a Ritchey). And yes it was sweat, it didn't corrode from the inside. I now have 3 Ti frames, but the problem isn't completely solved with Ti because my sweat corrodes through aluminum too, I have popped several front derailleur clamps because of the corrosion build up between the clamp and the Ti frame. I've also corroded completely through aluminum bars despite rinsing the bar tape once a week, and corroded through the Campy nuts that hold on the levers. And before the bike care arguments begin, I clean my bike after every ride. There must be a certain sweat type that corrodes heavily and I have it, because a lot of my friends pretty much never clean their bikes, sweat a lot, and their steel bikes are just fine.


Yeah aluminum and ti don't mingle well. They can seize. I bought some antiseize paste for this. An aluminum seat post seized on my carbon frame and now is unmovable. I went a little over 6 months without moving and greasing the seat post and it was hard to get out. 
I don't know my type of sweat but so far titanium is my best bet. 
I spray lithium grease on my head set and let it sit. 










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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Have any of you corrosive sweat types tried automotive paste wax on your bikes? It may not completely solve the issue, but a bi-weekly or monthly waxing should offer a measure of protection.


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