# Need a ruling on pedals



## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

1) "Clipless pedals make you faster" is this supported by science or is it a personal preference thing? That you're more "connected" to the bike and there's more "direct force transfer", I understand the principle but I just wanted to know if it's that much of a difference.

2) I just re-started road cycling and I'm not strong at all right now. I'm getting stronger, and I was wondering...will the pedals (and the shoes) improve form because of the fixed position, and therefore train your muscles more efficiently?

Or is it a case of "you coouullld use pedals now, but it makes much more of a difference if you ride for a year and THEN put them on the bike."

3) Let's say you want me to get those nice pedals that allow you to clip into the bike and look really cool. Which combinations of road shoes and road pedals should I get? I was looking on creepslist and found many, one of which was these:

Shimano Clipless Pedals (SPD)

I also saw something called "Wellgo" pedals but then read a review saying they flip over too often. Is this a design problem or a 2-minute adjustment with a pedal wrench?

Right now the pedals I have are fine, I just don't wanna take longer to get stronger and go faster if your body trains better with these things.

So let's say I should buy a brand new setup. Can anyone suggest a setup with pedals, shoes, and are the cleats separate? It seems like that when used but I'm not sure.

The word of the day is BUDGET.


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## Canada17 (Oct 3, 2012)

As a fellow new road rider, I will leave the recommendation as to shoe and pedal Cambodia to more knowledgable folks. As far as do the pedals make a difference? They make an unbelievable difference. With flats or cages you are missing out on a huge part of your pedal stroke that I find especially useful on hills and when my legs get tired. Get them, you won't regret it. I am currently using mountain style spd's as that is what I was able to find on a budget. I'll switch over to road spd's at some point in the future.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

Canada17 said:


> As a fellow new road rider, I will leave the recommendation as to shoe and pedal Cambodia to more knowledgable folks. As far as do the pedals make a difference? They make an unbelievable difference. With flats or cages you are missing out on a huge part of your pedal stroke that I find especially useful on hills and when my legs get tired. Get them, you won't regret it. I am currently using mountain style spd's as that is what I was able to find on a budget. I'll switch over to road spd's at some point in the future.


But isn't it better to "push down" than it is to "push down and pull up" ? If push-down only is the preferred technique for efficient road cycling, how am I missing out on the pedal stroke with clipless vs. regular? 

I guess a better question for me to ask is, what part of the pedal stroke did you mean that I was missing out on?


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## Canada17 (Oct 3, 2012)

Well, again coming from a fellow newb to road riding, I have been getting told to practice pedaling "in a circle" by everyone I meet so as to use the whole set of muscles in the leg, waist and back rather than "mashing" or pedaling down.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

Canada17 said:


> Well, again coming from a fellow newb to road riding, I have been getting told to practice pedaling "in a circle" by everyone I meet so as to use the whole set of muscles in the leg, waist and back rather than "mashing" or pedaling down.


I was told tha spinning is more effective, but is not better accomplished by "pulling up", rather it is better accomplished by moving the leg in a matter that does not resist circular motion of the pedals as 'mashing' does. Someone will see this thread and hopefully clear this up as well


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Here's what I offered in a similar thread a few days ago. 

_While I agree that clipless pedals can make us more efficient by helping us smooth the pedal stroke, through my experiences I remain skeptical that 'pulling up' has any real effect - or is even sustainable at high cadences. It's far more important to pedal in circles, pushing forward/ down on the down stroke and pulling back through the bottom, unweighting the leg on the upstroke._

Re: this thread, while I might agree that (ultimately) a cyclist using clipless pedals may be faster than s/he was previously, there would be a number of peripheral reasons for that. 

Similar to what I offered above, focus would be on striving for and maintaining a smooth/ efficient pedal stroke and adequate cadence given the riders fitness, terrain and riding conditions.

This doesn't mean that an efficient pedal stroke can't be attained_ without_ the use of clipless pedals, but IME done right (using a well designed, well fitting shoe, proper cleat placement and a pedal with ~ 6 degrees of float) they do prove a useful tool.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

your options are plain pedals, pedals with toe clips, clipless pedals...

plain pedals offer no way to keep your foot in contact with the pedal. 

all the toe clips I've ever used were, at some point, uncomfortable.

kinda leaves you with going clipless. will they make you faster...? probably faster than plain pedals because you have assured foot / pedal contact and you can apply leg force more aggressively.

are clipless faster than toe clips...? doubtful. but, they'd easily be more preferable due to the comfort factor.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Here's what I offered in a similar thread a few days ago.
> 
> _While I agree that clipless pedals can make us more efficient by helping us smooth the pedal stroke, through my experiences I remain skeptical that 'pulling up' has any real effect - or is even sustainable at high cadences. It's far more important to pedal in circles, pushing forward/ down on the down stroke and pulling back through the bottom, unweighting the leg on the upstroke._
> 
> ...


If I posted a video in the appropriate section on this site (not sure in which place to post it) of me spinning, could others give pointers on technique? Or is it not really that easy to gauge what someone's doing wrong unless there's other equipment involved (power meter etc)


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

if they didn't make any difference at all why would so many thousands of people spend hundreds of perfectly good dollars on shoes and pedals? of course they make a difference.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

I was asking because I read a while ago on a previous discussion about carbon vs other frame materials that, if everyone only rode what they 'needed' to ride, then everyone would be riding rebranded alum frames with sora. I understand that people who race and pros need all this gear to shave times, I was just wondering if it makes a difference to me, the guy who takes a week or so to ride 100 miles and barely breaks 22 mph on flat road (although there isn't that much flat road around me).

After reading all this, I've understood that its better to ride with clipless pedals and shoes because they are at the very least a better training tool for one's leg. Now I just don't know which pedals and which shoes to buy.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

Can you spin up a steep incline using platforms? Can you even spin the pedals using platforms? Will try that tomorrow with my misses bike ...

I find the possibility of the shoe not being in the same place on the pedal quite annoying for platforms.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

jfd986 said:


> If I posted a video in the appropriate section on this site (not sure in which place to post it) of me spinning, could others give pointers on technique? Or is it not really that easy to gauge what someone's doing wrong unless there's other equipment involved (power meter etc)


I don't think you'll get much constructive feedback from that. If you are interested in confirming or improving efficiency, best way to do that is with a fitting. Part of a basic fit will/should focus on that.

Of course that'll cost ya some, but not too much. 

Regarding clip less in general, the longer your ride, the more beneficial it is.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

Well on flat ground before I start bouncing in the seat and have to shift up, I can get upto 110 or 115, on a gear that is equivalent to me at a certain power, I'll be spinning 90s and on hills I drop gear to do 80s at least if not low 90s. This is all measured by cadence computer


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

BostonG said:


> I don't think you'll get much constructive feedback from that. If you are interested in confirming or improving efficiency, best way to do that is with a fitting. Part of a basic fit will/should focus on that.
> 
> Of course that'll cost ya some, but not too much.
> 
> Regarding clip less in general, the longer your ride, the more beneficial it is.


So is there a cutoff like "okay if you're riding x miles in y time, clipless pedals would be the next step" I like to quantify things when I can


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I like cycling shoes a lot. I appreciate the support, and my knees are happier with a funky insole, which I think using a rigid shoe facilitates.

Presuppose a rigid cycling shoe, and retention to the pedal gets pretty important.

For me, clipless vs. toe clips is a matter of availability and convenience. It's easy to find clipless pedals, easy to set up the cleats, and once I'm clipped in, I'm clipped in. Granted, I've never used a clipped pedal that offers that level of retention. They're not exactly common now, neither is the cleat, and I've got a system I'm happy with.

I'm not sure if anyone has studied clipless vs. flat pedals and power transfer rigorously. Although exercise science programs are getting more and more funding. My expectation is that the mechanism you propose is a big overstatement. My feet tend to move around on the pedal in the back of the stroke if I try to spin at higher cadences on flat pedals. Actually I tend to do alright with clipped pedals, although that's using running shoes most of the time. With clipless pedals, I get the shoe I want and I'm stable. So I've got something that works; why fight it? The only really big loss I can see from the shoe itself with a running shoe is some hysteresis from the rubber, although I do think I spend a little more energy keeping the muscles in my foot a bit more toned and my foot in the right place. This comes out as cramping in my arches if I do something sufficiently challenging on my bike in running shoes (although I have, and would do it again if skipping a ride was the other choice) and the occasional disruption in my rhythm if my foot worked its way far enough to the wrong part of my pedal.

I do think it's easier to learn good form with decent retention. I think I'd have had a great deal of difficulty learning to spin on flats if I didn't already know how to do it with some retention. I don't know that the difference between clipped and clipless pedals is that significant for this, as long as your foot doesn't slide fore and aft on the pedal.

For me, the major difference is the shoes. The pedals per se are a convenience. I don't care that much if you get clipless pedals or not. So I'm not sure if I can really answer 3) which proposes that I want you to do it.

What is your current setup anyway? If someone told me he was being bothered by some aspect of a running shoes/toe clips setup, I'd probably recommend going to purpose-built cycling shoes and clipless pedals. And I think that cycling shoes can help support some aspects of form, although I would probably not suggest it to a friend unless he complained about something I thought it would fix.

FWIW, I have Time ATACs on my mountain and 'cross bikes and really like them as a MTB pedal. I have them on my track bike too, which feels a bit silly. My road bike gets Speedplays, which I like a lot because I'm pretty duck-footed and occasionally have a bit of rotation to my pedal stroke, something that they make lower-consequence. The cleats are pretty awful to walk in, even with the covers. On my commuter, I just have some cheap REI pedals and toe clips.


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## dgeesaman (Jun 9, 2010)

jfd986 said:


> 1) "Clipless pedals make you faster" is this supported by science or is it a personal preference thing? That you're more "connected" to the bike and there's more "direct force transfer", I understand the principle but I just wanted to know if it's that much of a difference.
> 
> 2) I just re-started road cycling and I'm not strong at all right now. I'm getting stronger, and I was wondering...will the pedals (and the shoes) improve form because of the fixed position, and therefore train your muscles more efficiently?
> 
> ...


Ride without clipless for now. I find the difference is comfort and convenience, but with cycling shoes there is no room for a cheap investment. Pedals don't have to be expensive but cheap shoes really aren't better than nothing. SPD is also a relatively inferior system for road pedaling - the SPD-SL, Look, Time, Crank Brothers, Speedplay are a much better choice. Basic SPD-SL's aren't very expensive so if you remain on a budget I suggest that.

In general clipless pedals provide greater comfort and save energy on long rides. In that sense they will make you faster but for getting started it's not critical. Having rock-stiff soles in the shoes is probably the bigger benefit but rather than buying non-clipless cycling shoes just save up for a clipless setup.

I had some wellgo pedals and I did not like them. They were one-sided but they did not hang consistently on the spindle. I'm on SPD-SL's now and they are terrific. While I wouldn't get shoes over the Internet, Ribble Cycles in the UK has great prices on pedals and shipping to the US. (You'll have to investigate how Canada does with them).

David


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

There is a marked difference between platform pedals and sneakers vs clipless pedals and cycling shoes. Having consistent foot location is important. I once forgot my shoes and had to do a 30ish mile ride on platforms and it was okay, but I was not with a group that was pushing it. If the ride had been spirited, I would have been screwed.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

jfd986 said:


> So is there a cutoff like "okay if you're riding x miles in y time, clipless pedals would be the next step" I like to quantify things when I can


You are over thinking it. Clipless is better. That's all.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

jfd986 said:


> So is there a cutoff like "okay if you're riding x miles in y time, clipless pedals would be the next step" I like to quantify things when I can


If you plan to ride more than 10 miles on a regular basis, breakdown and get pedals and shoes.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

jfd986 said:


> So is there a cutoff like "okay if you're riding x miles in y time, clipless pedals would be the next step" I like to quantify things when I can


Not by miles or time.

Get cycling shoes if you start suffering a problem related to using running shoes. Pressure from the edges of the pedal, irritation with having your foot move, cramps in your feet, discomfort from the straps on your pedals, something like that. Or if you need it to facilitate something else, like a supportive insole.

Once you've got cycling shoes, it's the same money and less trouble to get clipless pedals, unless you happen to have cleat-compatible flat pedals.

One of the problems with trying to quantify most things related to bikes is that the basic mechanism hasn't gotten more efficient by any quantitatively significant amount in decades. That's why air resistance from wheels (and supposed improvement) is measured in a pathetic unit like grams-force. Weight changes can be measured in pounds, but considering that the system weighs (if you're me, lately) about 190 lb, it's still not that big a deal in the amounts by which it actually changes.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happier to have contemporary (well, contemporary-ish. I bought my favorite road bike in 2000) bikes myself. And I do like integrated shifters. But I feel that what I'm getting when I buy a new bike is the chance to get something with a geometry that I really like and to start with everything new and in good shape. Basically, it's about some qualitative stuff. I _feel_ more agile on my nicer road bike.

I guess I do put a number on it - I have to decide if I'm willing to pay for the bike. But I think that's not what you're looking for...

Do I think that a clipless pedal system is $200 better than riding with toe clips? Depends on the bike, but certainly I do for the ones I take on long rides or race, and while I could put clipless pedals on my commuter at no cost beyond money that's already sunk in my various rides, I choose not to.


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> if they didn't make any difference at all why would so many thousands of people spend hundreds of perfectly good dollars on shoes and pedals? of course they make a difference.


^this^

Walking around with your toes pointed up, on inflexible carbon soles is not my idea of fun. They will make a huge difference to your efficiency on the bike. 

...and that whole "pulling up" thing is kind of over rated.


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## dgeesaman (Jun 9, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> if they didn't make any difference at all why would so many thousands of people spend hundreds of perfectly good dollars on shoes and pedals? of course they make a difference.


It's a valid question. What if it were the same reason we see 200+lb/15mph riders spend big bucks on lightweight bikes and aero carbon wheels?


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

dgeesaman said:


> It's a valid question. What if it were the same reason we see 200+lb/15mph riders spend big bucks on lightweight bikes and aero carbon wheels?


More dollars than sense?


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

dgeesaman said:


> It's a valid question. What if it were the same reason we see 200+lb/15mph riders spend big bucks on lightweight bikes and aero carbon wheels?


Maybe they are trying to break that all important 16mph?

Maybe they are trying to get down to 180?

Maybe they think that speed comes from equipment and not training?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Blackbeerthepirate said:


> Maybe they think that speed comes from equipment and not training?


Huh? Aren't clipless pedals "equipment"? 

Seems you're arguing against yourself here....

I agree that the OP asked a valid question. There are all sorts of 'technological advances' that have been thrust upon cyclists over the decades. Many of which answered a problem no one had. The recent BB30/ PF30/ BB86/90 'standards' come to mind. 

I say kudos to the OP for questioning before spending. :thumbsup:


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Thinking about it, carbon wheels aren't a terrible comparison for clipless pedal systems, but IMO you have to include the whole array of wheels.

I'd rather ride double-walled aluminum rims than single-walled rims or steel, for example, but can't see spending the money to have carbon. And I've chosen to spend the money to have mid-range pedals and shoes, but I don't have the top-end carbon soles or the most expensive of the pedals.

A lot of these things aren't binary.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

I forgot my shoes and did 28 miles in sneakers. Foot pain, slower speed, and in general, felt like a dope because shoes are a pretty important thing to forget. 

granted, pushing on a speedplay with vans is less than ideal, but sole flex was the biggest problem with the whole set up.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

dgeesaman said:


> 200+lb/15mph riders spend big bucks on lightweight bikes and aero carbon wheels?


hey i resemble this comment :cryin:


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

jfd986 said:


> 1) "Clipless pedals make you faster" is this supported by science or is it a personal preference thing? That you're more "connected" to the bike and there's more "direct force transfer", I understand the principle but I just wanted to know if it's that much of a difference.


When you get clipless pedals and good shoes you gain a combination that allows more efficient power transfer to the bike. Most of the time when people ride flats they use soft soled shoes and that means less efficient power stroke. This applies to mtn biking as well a road biking.



jfd986 said:


> 2) I just re-started road cycling and I'm not strong at all right now. I'm getting stronger, and I was wondering...will the pedals (and the shoes) improve form because of the fixed position, and therefore train your muscles more efficiently?


IMHO one benefit of the clipless pedals is that it forces your foot into one spot. That defines your form. You do need to dail in the form as small adjustments in cleat placement on the shoe can cause pain or remove it. What are you using now? Flats or flats with toe cages. E



jfd986 said:


> 3) Let's say you want me to get those nice pedals that allow you to clip into the bike and look really cool. Which combinations of road shoes and road pedals should I get? I was looking on creepslist and found many, one of which was these:
> 
> Shimano Clipless Pedals (SPD)
> 
> I also saw something called "Wellgo" pedals but then read a review saying they flip over too often. Is this a design problem or a 2-minute adjustment with a pedal wrench?


Get them as combination. SPD's are mostly mtn bike pedals. I use them on my mtn bike and have SPD shoes to go with them. I just started road biking and want to use the same setup. So I got Shimano A520 pedals. These are standard SPD pedal types, but housed in a single sided wider road pedal. Mtn bike pedals have entry on multiple sides, tend to have a smaller platform, and are heavier to stand up to pedal stirkes on the ground. Road pedals are ligther, single sided and have larger platform to support the foot on longer rides. I don't know much about other types of "true road" pedals as the SPD worked for my goals. I am not sure they are ideal for someone who does not want mtb bike crossover.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

charlox5 said:


> ...pushing on a speedplay with vans is less than ideal, but sole flex was the biggest problem with the whole set up.


This is really the big issue. Sole flex. Sole flex is good on platform as it allows your foot to connect with the pedal. However it is bad as it is wasted power. Stiff soles are great to transfer power, but you start to lose grip the pedals as the shoe cannot conform to the pedal. This is where the cleats come in. They allow for solid super stiff sole and also good positive connection to the pedals to prevent any slip in any part of the stroke.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

I did a good bit of riding in my minimalist running shoes and platforms before breaking down and getting clipless. I have not seen marked improvement in average speed vs. what I could probably chalk up to fitness benefits. I don't think you are going to notice immediate jumps in performance.

Mind you, I would still highly suggest getting clipless pedals. I think one big benefit is foot placement. I found with wearing minimalist running shoes I better felt where the pedal was hitting my foot. With those kinds of shoes, the arch is soft to allow flex. Early in my rides I was pretty good about keeping my foot on the pedal in the right spot. As I got fatigued I found my feet wandering. This then leads to less efficiency and more fatigue. Not an issue with clipless pedals.

Climbing hills is much better, as is sprinting on the flats. Really, anything that involves aggressive mashing or fast spinning is better because it keeps your feet attached. My cadence has improved greatly, and I now spin at the 90-95 average which works well for my efficiency. Spinning at that rate consistently in platforms was difficult.

I also think they are safer (once you learn to clip out right). If you go over a pothole or such, your feet don't go flying off. The sense of connection to your bike translates into better control in my opinion. This may be more psychological than actual gains, but to me it is real. 

As for the shoes/pedals, get something that is comfortable to you. I have a pair of Lake CX211 triathlon shoes that I really like. I do some triathlons here and there, plus living in Louisiana prefer the ventilation and cool of no socks. I also use SPD MTB pedals. I have sacrificed weight for the convenience of having clips on both sides of the pedals. I have a pair of Wellgo pedals on my hybrid, with the dual use platform on one side and SPD on the other. I don't recommend them. You can get a set of Shimano SPD off Nashbar for cheap, don't drop down any lower than that.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

*My Current Setup*

Many wanted to know what my current setup is on the bike.

Flat pedals, some ridging on one side (can't remember what that's called) and running shoes.

Average cadence 92, average speed 16.5 mph (today SIGNIFICANTLY slower in rain)

I weigh 153 and I'm 5'5.5, so I can do my best to drop down to, about, 130.

From what you guys have said, clipless pedals seem like a good idea once I put more miles on the bike and start to think about racing. I want the average speed to go from 16.5 mph for that course to, say, 22 or 23. From what you guys are saying, it sounds like clipless will get me +1 or +1.5 mph of that goal on efficiency, but not all 7 mph. The rest is definitely going to come from training and dieting.

Regarding racing, I've started another thread. Can check it out and give your two cents.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

How long is the course you're thinking of?

Maintaining 22 and 23 mph is very difficult over any kind of extended period. The old rule of thumb about being ready to go racing was being able to hold 20 for an hour. Which is already very hard, compared to averaging 16.5. (And that's already hard in the city!)

Do you have toe clips? They're very cheap and give you a lot of the advantages of going to a clipless system. FWIW, I think even 1 mph (more than a 5% improvement to speed, on the order of a 10% or 15% improvement in power if I'm not buggering up my "in my head" calculus) is very optimistic for this particular equipment change.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

AndrwSwitch said:


> How long is the course you're thinking of?
> 
> Maintaining 22 and 23 mph is very difficult over any kind of extended period. The old rule of thumb about being ready to go racing was being able to hold 20 for an hour. Which is already very hard, compared to averaging 16.5. (And that's already hard in the city!)
> 
> Do you have toe clips? They're very cheap and give you a lot of the advantages of going to a clipless system. FWIW, I think even 1 mph (more than a 5% improvement to speed, on the order of a 10% or 15% improvement in power if I'm not buggering up my "in my head" calculus) is very optimistic for this particular equipment change.


Right now my daily ride is a fairly short course (13 miles) but the longer course should be in the neighbourhood of 25 miles. It's down a long straight road with a bike lane (occasional uphills and downhills nothing remarkable), and then leads to a dedicated bike path.

I'll look into toe clips or toe cages. Thought they were a bad idea but if you're saying they're much better than nothing then I'll check 'em out. 

So you're saying clipless is even less of a speed gain than 1 mph? wow.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Not trying to be defeatist here, but IMO/E you're expecting far too much in the way of performance gains from most any equipment change alone, but in this case going to clipless pedals. 

I think Andrew is spot-on in his remarks re: gains in average speeds. I'd say 1 MPH, *max*.

If you're really looking to improve, approach this as more of a lifestyle thing and incorporate dietary changes (if needed) _along with_ a weight loss program _along with_ upping your training regimen. 

_However_, even then don't expect miracles, because while dropping about 20 lbs. will certainly help, you'll lose some muscle mass with the weight, so STW (strength to weight ratio) won't be all that different. 

On the plus side, you'll feel better on the bike and climb better because of the weight loss, so IMO it's definitely worthwhile - even if just from a health standpoint. 

For now, if finances are an issue, I suggest considering a decent shoe (as in, well designed, well fitting) with toe clips and straps. For a variety of reasons I've done so (on and off) for a number of years and suffered no real detriment in comfort or performance.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Not trying to be defeatist here, but IMO/E you're expecting far too much in the way of performance gains from most any equipment change alone, but in this case going to clipless pedals.
> 
> I think Andrew is spot-on in his remarks re: gains in average speeds. I'd say 1 MPH, *max*.
> 
> ...


Okay that's great, I'm definitely already trying to lose weight and the plan is to supplement my riding with some strength training to build muscle mass and increase power. 

What you're saying is congruent to what I initially believed when I started this thread. Pedals do make a difference, but it's not nearly as much of a difference as most people believe, and i dont need them unless im :

an athlete who is doing many races a year and needs that extra reassurance that they have the best physical contact with their machine possible

A rider who is impeded in some way by wearing normal shoes on a bike (toe cramping, numbness, refractory knee or leg pain)

Or someone who tries out some shoes and pedals, says that they "feel" better , and decide to spend the money.

Right now I'm not any of these people, so if there's not much to be gained, or if the cyclists who cycle better with pedals have already upped their game from other things, then for now I'm not going to bother with them. I'll just look into those toe clips


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Not trying to be defeatist here, but IMO/E you're expecting far too much in the way of performance gains from most any equipment change alone, but in this case going to clipless pedals.
> 
> I think Andrew is spot-on in his remarks re: gains in average speeds. I'd say 1 MPH, *max*.
> 
> ...


To get 7 mph gain with equipment I would suggest an e bike. 

To your suggestion on the shoes, going regular shoes I would go with weightlifting shoes. The hard sole is the next best thing to cycling shoes but by the time you get a decent pair you might as well get inexpensive cycling shoes and pedals.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

I made the switch several months back after being a platform rider for a while. The getting used to thw new feel actually caused me to slow down a little at first. You are not going to get huge mains from the equipment alone, but the upper limit is higher.

I am by no means an elite athlete. I always fell into "don't need them" camp. But after having become used to them I cannot imagine trying to ride in a serious fashion without them now. It is true that you cannot miss what you don't try. But I have a feeling you would like them if you tried them.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jfd986 said:


> Okay that's great, I'm definitely already trying to lose weight and the plan is to supplement my riding with some strength training to build muscle mass and increase power.
> 
> What you're saying is congruent to what I initially believed when I started this thread. Pedals do make a difference, but it's not nearly as much of a difference as most people believe, and i dont need them unless im :
> 
> ...


Let me say upfront that I think (at least at the present time) clips and straps are a good option for you, so please hold that thought.  

Addressing what you've offered above, I think you're dwelling a little to much on the potential performance gains going with clipless pedal systems. 

As an example, I consider myself to be athletic, but don't race and still derive benefits from clipless pedals. A more solid connection, an extension/ integration of bike fit/ can help to smooth the pedal stroke... but (at least IME) none of this translates into much of a performance gain. Still, the aspects mentioned (among others) _do_ serve to enhance the cycling experience and help build endurance. 

On the flip side, clipless pedals aren't a _requirement_ to build endurance or smooth the pedal stroke, and going clipless isn't always all positive. If (for example) the cleats aren't set up correctly and/ or the shoe doesn't fit quite right, the fit issues you mentioned in your post would remain possibilities.

What I'm getting at is... while clipless pedal systems offer some advantages, viewing them as a 'fix' for either a fit or performance related issue is (IMO) expecting a bit too much.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

What is your goal? To get to 23 mph average speed over a flat hour long course? 

If you are doing 16.5 mph avg then pedals will not get you there. In fact being 5'7" and 150lbs is not problem either. It seems to me that the issue is leg strength and resulting power or general fitness. 

If you are winded at the end and can't catch your breath focus on increasing cardio. If you can't turn the gear needed to run 22 mph at 90 rpm then you will need to work on leg strength. On level ground overall weight and bike weight are not that big of a deal. When the road goes up weight makes a difference. 

As for how fast is reasonable I think it hard to say without knowing elevation profile and prevaling winds. I know what pace I can do on my road bike over 60 minutues, but elevation profile and wind impact that speed and it not really meaningfull to you unless you rode the same loop.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

I did not start this thread thinking pedals would make up for obvious needs in cardiovascular fitness and power, I started this thread because I wanted to know if pedals and shoes are functionally worth the money at which they are priced. You pay for a bike with brifters because you don't have to move your hands when you shift. This adds convenience and safety. You pay for pedals and shoes because you are connected to the machine and force is transferred with little or no sole flex as a result. What does this add? Safety? Speed? It thought the efficiency translated to speed, but it it doesn't then I'm not going to buy them. The feel of brifting (well, Microshift shifting) versus stem friction shifting is considerably better and arguably safer for someone like me, but will the difference between flats (ridged in my case) and clipless be that different for me? That's what I wanted to find out.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

Your question has been answered many times over. If it is not what you want to hear so be it, but it is probably not going to change. The benefits you will see is not necessarily in immediate speed gains. You will experience better efficiency. This pays dividends in numerous ways. You will have a better ride experience, likely fatigue less on longer rides, better output when you are tired, better contact and safety on rougher roads, easier time pushing hard especially while standing, and likely a higher threshold for potential top end. There is a reason why almost all top end riders use them. You can get an entry level setup for very affordable so your best bet is to try it for yourself instead of asking the same question over and over in the apparent hope the answers will change.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

gte105u said:


> Your question has been answered many times over. If it is not what you want to hear so be it, but it is probably not going to change. The benefits you will see is not necessarily in immediate speed gains. You will experience better efficiency. This pays dividends in numerous ways. You will have a better ride experience, likely fatigue less on longer rides, better output when you are tired, better contact and safety on rougher roads, easier time pushing hard especially while standing, and likely a higher threshold for potential top end. There is a reason why almost all top end riders use them. You can get an entry level setup for very affordable so your best bet is to try it for yourself instead of asking the same question over and over in the apparent hope the answers will change.


Alright well everyone's answers made sense, I just never understood the benefits of the added efficiency in the way you just mentioned them because im used to quantifying things. Thanks for the response. I already understood from another poster that, if I plan on riding more than 10 miles regularly, I should get them. My rides right now are about 12-14 miles and, while that does meet the advice he gave, I want that to become the norm before I buy them. Another said that they would decrease the possibility of slipping, and I got that. It just hasn't been a problem for me yet. I am certain that, as I am able to increase my power on the bike, it will become a problem. I'm reading everyone's posts and taking them into account, I just didn't think pedals were some sort of magic bullet, that's the only reason I restated my question. Otherwise all the other info that people have mentioned supporting the use of clippers pedals has made sense.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Cycling specific shoes (without flex/reduced flex) reduce foot fatigue, so over longer distances do increase effeciency more substantially. Over a shorter distance, they still do, as your foot muscles are not absorbing the energy. 
The clipless pedals ensure safety because your foot won't accidentally slip off a platform, and as mentioned above, aren't uncomfortable like clips. I can't think of any reason that would say that clipless pedals increase power, save for better positioning due to the cleats.


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## JoePAz (Jul 20, 2012)

jfd986 said:


> ...You pay for pedals and shoes because you are connected to the machine and force is transferred with little or no sole flex as a result. What does this add? Safety? Speed? It thought the efficiency translated to speed, but it it doesn't then I'm not going to buy them.


 The pedals are more efficient, but that does not make you 3 mph faster. It is probably worth 1 mph short term and over a long ride this adds up. 
It will be faster and more efficient and that is the reason riders us them. Just remember 1 mph at about 20 mph is 5%. 5% faster is a big deal.


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