# that's just racing? or that's just an *******?



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Take a look at the video linked in here:
https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/06/13/felony-battery/

The guy causing the crash has bad rapsheet. Was he being deliberate in causing the crash. Guys are saying he was, at least he set himself up to have an excuse to be deliberate while using the exucse as "it's just racing".


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Best I can do to link the video itself.

Edit: Someone crashed me out like that in the past. Yes, intentional. If I ever see the guy, I will maul him and take the assault charge. Put me out for a year.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks for linking the video.

Crash happens at around the 3:20 mark, but you'll want to start watching around the 3:00 mark to watch the run in.

Apparently the DA is looking into this and see if this is possibly a felony. The downed rider is in bad shape, has head injury according to the various reports I've read. That's so f*up! This guy James Doyle needs to be sued and banned for life if he's got such a bad rap.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Thanks for sharing.

I'll be sure to watch out for this guy.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

After watching it again...

If I was the guy who was recording... I wouldn't have been able to stop myself from taking the ******* out for revenge.

And furthermore, the dude seriously needs to be beat with a baseball bat in the head. He needs to be beaten into unconsciousness and suffer for as long as possible. He should be paralyzed, have his tendons severed so he can't walk again.

Some bullshit loss of license or whatever is not even close to good enough. This man needs a real lesson taught to him.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> After watching it again...
> 
> If I was the guy who was recording... I wouldn't have been able to stop myself from taking the ******* out for revenge.
> 
> ...


you got it. The guy doing the filming called out James Doyle's name immediate. It was as if he was expecting the move from Doyle to happen. Perhaps he's seen this bs before. I just hope that Johnny guy is ok, because a head injury is serious stuff, especially if all you're doing is racing for peanuts to begin with.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Reading the comments on the link in the original blog post, it has happened before, many times. 

Apparently there is more video of the rest of the race where the guy is barking out names at other riders, basically in a rage. 

Dude is a hazard to anyone near him on a bike.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, there needs to be a special little circle of Dante's hell for a douchebag like that.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

if he's such a widely-known dirty rider, seems like something could be done to adjust his riding style...

possibly get a dozen concerned individuals to hold an 'intervention' in a dark alley and help him see the error of his ways.

why would other racers tolerate someone who intentionally causes severe harm to riders?


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

If I was the victim, I'd ask the police what they thought of it.

If that guy indeed has a reputation for that kind of stuff, sounds to me like he needs to get his top tube sawn through next ride he shows up at.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

That type of thing happens dozens of a times a race. It's odd that would cause the guy to go down, but apparently he was caught totally unaware. 

It's an aggressive move, but I wouldn't say outright he was trying to make the other guy crash. He was just being unnecessarily aggressive.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

hfc said:


> If I was the victim, I'd ask the police what they thought of it.


And they would say what? 

Police don't know anything about nor having anything to do with bike racing. That's a pretty silly idea.

This would be up to the officials and USAC only. As it should be.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> That type of thing happens dozens of a times a race. It's odd that would cause the guy to go down, but apparently he was caught totally unaware.
> 
> It's an aggressive move, but I wouldn't say outright he was trying to make the other guy crash. He was just being unnecessarily aggressive.


what was James Doyle trying to do there? Was he trying to go around Johnny? Doyle had a whole right side of the road to go around.

Johnny guy is also a trackie too so he's not new to being bumped, but wet road probably contributed to the crash


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

According to that blog, the police are investigating it as possible aggravated assault. In part because of some things that were said before and after. He basically admitted he crashed the guy out on purpose. I believe someone has that on GoPro.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Migen21 said:


> According to that blog, the police are investigating it as possible aggravated assault. In part because of some things that were said before and after. He basically admitted he crashed the guy out on purpose. I believe someone has that on GoPro.


I also read somewhere that Doyle even brag about crashing the guy out but then Doyle removed his post.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

I saw this video a week ago and read the discussion on a FB page. As I watched the video multiple times and read posts, and then read a blog about Doyle, my opinion changed. It went something like this:

1. What a stupid move, very aggressive, I've seen this before, unintentional crash
2. Still a stupid move, but could have been intentional based on the fact that he was going to pass earlier and was squeezed out - thus frustrated and going to make it through the hole the second time for sure
3. Can't tell if intentional or not - would really love to hear any conversations between Doyle and other racers leading up to the crash
4. (read a blog stating that Doyle's MO on group rides and races is to squeeze through tight spots in the gutter) - seems like he was just trying to pass - poor decision - lowered shoulder so as not to get pushed into the curb
5. (read posts indicating that he has done this before and possibly bragged about crashing the other guy) - looks like he used the excuse of squeezing through to deliberately crash the other racer

My point is that this could have been a bad decision or it could have been a premeditated attempt to crash out another racer. The most important detail is intent. I've definitely been nearly pushed all the way into the curb in a corner, but it was purely an accident. I've also been nearly pushed into the curb in a corner, and I wasn't totally sure it was an accident. Very similar circumstances, but with different racers and different personalities. 

I was really curious to see what people here would say about this video.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> what was James Doyle trying to do there? Was he trying to go around Johnny? Doyle had a whole right side of the road to go around.
> 
> Johnny guy is also a trackie too so he's not new to being bumped, but wet road probably contributed to the crash


He was trying to pass. I don't know why he'd pass on the left and not the right. Maybe there was a right turn coming up and he didn't want to get chopped? I don't know. 

Wet road would have had nothing to do with that. His handlebars got hit. Normally you'd move your handlebars away and use your body to absorb a bump, which is why it seems he was caught off guard since he didn't do that.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> According to that blog, the police are investigating it as possible aggravated assault.


That's absurd. What's next, arresting hockey players or baseball players or the like?


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

It doesn't seem absurd to me. 

If there was malice and intent, it an assault. It doesn't matter that he was riding a bike, or even racing at the time.

I would honestly like to see the guy spend some time in a courtroom (civil and/or criminal), pondering his future.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

pedalbiker said:


> That's absurd. What's next, arresting hockey players or baseball players or the like?


Those guys are getting paid, it's part of the 'show'. They probably sign some paper giving up those rights to play.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

At a minimum, the guy should no longer be allowed in sanctioned races or other group settings again. This is based on the opinions of those who were there and those that experienced similar behavior in the past. The injured rider faces a long road to recovery because of this rider's dangerous actions. I'm not saying every time a rider goes down there needs to be sanctions, but from what I see and have heard, they are warranted in this case.

Civil? Maybe. 

Criminal? It would have to be a very strong case for any DA to take it to trial. Given California's history of letting bike-hitting drivers go with a slap on the wrist, you have to have much, much more than this video and a a few guys' say-so. You'd need that rumored confession (on tape or screenshot) and anything else you could find. Even then you'd have a hard time. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic.

Here's hoping John Walsh makes a full recovery and returns to his wife and bike. This isn't a pro we're talking about, but a guy who does this for fun. To be taken out this way? Nobody deserves that.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Alaska Mike said:


> At a minimum, the guy should no longer be allowed in sanctioned races or other group settings again. This is based on the opinions of those who were there and those that experienced similar behavior in the past. The injured rider faces a long road to recovery because of this rider's dangerous actions. I'm not saying every time a rider goes down there needs to be sanctions, but from what I see and have heard, they are warranted in this case.
> 
> Civil? Maybe.
> 
> ...


you hit it. Johnny was just a regular working Joe out to have some fun, and now this. The impact on his family is immense. I don't know his condition and what sort of medical insurance he has, but whenever you head hits the ground, injury is usually long lasting.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> That's absurd. What's next, arresting hockey players or baseball players or the like?


well, so far, all of the guys I know around here in Socal, who have interacted with Doyle, have nothing good to say about him. Not a single person has backed him up here. In fact, there are at least 2 clubs that I'm aware have made it known that Doyle is not in anyway a part of their club (apparently Doyle wears other club kits). He's without friends, and now there are thoughts of guys not welcoming him on group rides (such as Food Court, etc). I think that speaks loudly about Doyle's character.

The people who have taken a neutral stance are usually those who don't know Doyle and his history and they're just judging Doyle's action based on video (which to be fair, does not necessarily say "guilty as charged"). But safe to say that those who know him, stay away from him.

PS: Doyle wasn't gonna pull through and take a pull. He doesn't pull on group rides, likes to suck wheel at mid pack. And even if he pulls thru, he doesn't have the power to chase. His move was mostly an intimidation move with a sprinkle of aholery. Who the f* in their right mind would bump another guy on a wet road 2-3 laps in? Only a person with carelessness and recklessness would do that, and he has a patter of doing it. It's not like we have a 3yr old kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar for the first time here.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

duriel said:


> Those guys are getting paid, it's part of the 'show'. They probably sign some paper giving up those rights to play.


And crashing is part of bike racing. Everyone that races a bike knows that.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

jspharmd said:


> IThe most important detail is intent. I've definitely been nearly pushed all the way into the curb in a corner, but it was purely an accident. I've also been nearly pushed into the curb in a corner, and I wasn't totally sure it was an accident. Very similar circumstances, but with different racers and different personalities.
> 
> I was really curious to see what people here would say about this video.


I've been pushed into corners, been hipchecked into curbs, had the door slammed shut at 35 mph and that is all part of bike racing once you get to a high enough level. And it's all intentional. Not to intentionally make you fall, but to intentionally and physically move you out the way. Ever seen Peter Sagan in the closing miles of a race? He'll actually push people out of the way with his hands, which is going to a whole different level of rule-breaking and intent. And if someone fell because of that? No one in their right ****ing mind would say "let's call the police". 

Like I said in my first post, that stuff happens every race. I personally see it happen in the last few kms of most every big crit I do. The only difference I see here is that the guy that crashed was completely caught unaware and didn't move his bars out of the way, which is what everyone else (and I imagine him as well) would normally do in that situation.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> well, so far, all of the guys I know around here in Socal, who have interacted with Doyle, have nothing good to say about him. Not a single person has backed him up here. In fact, there are at least 2 clubs that I'm aware have made it known that Doyle is not in anyway a part of their club (apparently Doyle wears other club kits). He's without friends, and now there are thoughts of guys not welcoming him on group rides (such as Food Court, etc). I think that speaks loudly about Doyle's character.
> 
> The people who have taken a neutral stance are usually those who don't know Doyle and his history and they're just judging Doyle's action based on video (which to be fair, does not necessarily say "guilty as charged"). But safe to say that those who know him, stay away from him.
> 
> PS: Doyle wasn't gonna pull through and take a pull. He doesn't pull on group rides, likes to suck wheel at mid pack. And even if he pulls thru, he doesn't have the power to chase. His move was mostly an intimidation move with a sprinkle of aholery. Who the f* in their right mind would bump another guy on a wet road 2-3 laps in? Only a person with carelessness and recklessness would do that, and he has a patter of doing it. It's not like we have a 3yr old kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar for the first time here.


I'm not arguing he isn't a total *******. I'm not even arguing that wasn't an aggressive move. I'm just stating that it is a fact that those moves happen ALL the time. 

Who would bump a guy two to three laps in? A whole helluva a lot of people. Go on youtube and watch some gopro vids of a PRT crit. You bump into people every lap! 

Bumping is something that is one hundred percent a part of bike racing. There's incidental bumping and intentional bumping and bumping just because there's no wiggle room and everything else, but it happens and most people are accustomed to that. It's when you're caught off-guard or by surprise that crashes occur because of that and that's what I see in that video.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Alaska Mike said:


> At a minimum, the guy should no longer be allowed in sanctioned races or other group settings again. This is based on the opinions of those who were there and those that experienced similar behavior in the past. The injured rider faces a long road to recovery because of this rider's dangerous actions. I'm not saying every time a rider goes down there needs to be sanctions, but from what I see and have heard, they are warranted in this case.


With a history of hyper-aggressive behavior and a whole bunch of people affirming that, this is what I agree with. The officials at the race and USACycling need to step up and do something. They won't, because they don't tend to give a **** about this stuff, but that's where this should go. Not to the police.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

pedalbiker said:


> With a history of hyper-aggressive behavior and a whole bunch of people affirming that, this is what I agree with. The officials at the race and USACycling need to step up and do something. They won't, because they don't tend to give a **** about this stuff, but that's where this should go. Not to the police.


A lawyers view.
https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/06/13/felony-battery/
https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/justice-for-johnny/


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

asgelle said:


> A lawyers view.
> https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/06/13/felony-battery/
> https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/justice-for-johnny/


A lawyer's *opinion*, you mean, which is based on a whole lot more than that video. 

And since he says this, I discount it even more:

"If you are not a crit racer the take down may not look obvious. If you are a crit racer, you will be shocked."

I am a crit racer, and a high-level one at that, and that not only doesn't look like an obvious take down (like passing on his right side and then moving hard across his front wheel would do, or actually reaching out a hand), but it's a move that repeatedly happens.

In any case, civil court is a whole different ball game and if something can be had from that for the victim, especially with regards to the history of the aggressor, then he needs to do what's best for him. 

I'm just full-bore against "criminal proceedings" in a bike crash incident that happens in bike races across the country on a weekly basis. That could set a crazy-ass precedent.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

pedalbiker said:


> A lawyer's *opinion*, you mean, ...


and "view" and "opinion" differ how?


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

pedalbiker said:


> I'm just full-bore against "criminal proceedings" in a bike crash incident that happens in bike races across the country on a weekly basis. That could set a crazy-ass precedent.


You have it exactly backwards. Not prosecuting assault just because it happened in the context of a sporting event is the precedent that needs to be avoided.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

asgelle said:


> and "view" and "opinion" differ how?


Subtleties of the English language?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

asgelle said:


> You have it exactly backwards. Not prosecuting assault just because it happened in the context of a sporting event is the precedent that needs to be avoided.


*Would that be assault if the guy hadn't of crashed?*

That's the problem, here. You're trying to turn normal bike racing situations into criminal activities. 

Get some perspective.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

If a person is known to be a dangerous or a "rough" rider, there are things that the pack can do to show that they frown on his behavior. If they don't, they deserve what they get.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I would not ride with that guy. If he shows up, I'm going the other way.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> If a person is known to be a dangerous or a "rough" rider, there are things that the pack can do to show that they frown on his behavior. If they don't, they deserve what they get.


"Can" and "should" are two very different things. Should the pack put themselves in dangerous positions (say by blocking him out) or reply to the aggressive behavior with more aggressive behavior? If the there was a pattern in races by this individual and it was reported to officials, that might partially explain why the region saw a decline in participation this year (1/3 by some accounts). You pay the sanctioning body to provide a safe (within reason), officiated, and timed environment for your Walter Mitty fantasies. When the officials fail to live up to their side and rely on the pack to regulate misbehavior (as outlined in the USAC manual), why not just stick to group rides? There are more than a few really good "training races" in the area.

Not to say that my adrenaline-fueled mind hasn't briefly harbored thoughts of putting someone in the ditch during a race for some perceived slight, but that's not my role- nor should it be. My perception of events can be skewed, and often are in the middle of the race.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

duriel said:


> I would not ride with that guy. If he shows up, I'm going the other way.


The week before at the El Dorado crit, we were on the course at the same time (different packs). I wouldn't have known of his "style" until it was too late. John Walsh was the unfortunate one to suffer the consequences of when what was expected to eventually happen finally did.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

pedalbiker said:


> *Would that be assault if the guy hadn't of crashed?*


I can't really say (not a lawyer), but I certainly wish it would have turned out differently. If USAC does nothing, you can expect there will be a lot of unpleasantness in the region, and participation will suffer even more.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

Legalese aside, that guy seems like a colossal dick. JMO.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

If you can't tell that he intentionally shoulder checked the poor guy, you don't see well. The law also does not exclude certain types of events (sporting events) from the application of the laws related to intentional torts and/or intentional battery. The facts will bear out whether the events that occur are a part of normal participation (think boxing or hockey) or completely inappropriate as they appear to be here. This is the equivalent of MMA fighter hitting the other guy with the stool. It is not inherently part of the rules of racing (no matter how many times you say it is) and it is inherently dangerous. The law, therefore, applies whether we like it or not. You don't get to do whatever you want just because you are voluntarily competing in a sport, sorry.

https://www.uakron.edu/dotAsset/d4a88d9c-809b-4a34-a304-8910932f92ae.pdf

https://sportslaw.uslegal.com/sports-violence/

https://www.sadlersports.com/blog/assault-battery-exclusion-sports/

https://books.google.com/books?id=H...=onepage&q=intentional battery sports&f=false

Battery in Special Situations - FindLaw


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Alaska Mike said:


> "Can" and "should" are two very different things. Should the pack put themselves in dangerous positions (say by blocking him out) or reply to the aggressive behavior with more aggressive behavior? If the there was a pattern in races by this individual and it was reported to officials, that might partially explain why the region saw a decline in participation this year (1/3 by some accounts). You pay the sanctioning body to provide a safe (within reason), officiated, and timed environment for your Walter Mitty fantasies. When the officials fail to live up to their side and rely on the pack to regulate misbehavior (as outlined in the USAC manual), why not just stick to group rides? There are more than a few really good "training races" in the area.


Agreed. USAC really needs to step up on this. It's not like bike racing is in a boom period to begin with...


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> If you can't tell that he intentionally shoulder checked the poor guy, you don't see well.


If you can't understand that bumping and shouldering is a common occurrence in bike races, then you simply don't have enough experience bike racing.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Alaska Mike said:


> I can't really say (not a lawyer), but I certainly wish it would have turned out differently. If USAC does nothing, you can expect there will be a lot of unpleasantness in the region, and participation will suffer even more.


I can say: of course it wouldn't. Because it happens all the time. Because it's simply a part of bike racing. 

Sure, again, with the background on this guy and the multitudes of people who have experience with him, they absolutely need to step up to the plate.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> If you can't tell that he intentionally shoulder checked the poor guy, you don't see well. The law also does not exclude certain types of events (sporting events) from the application of the laws related to intentional torts and/or intentional battery. The facts will bear out whether the events that occur are a part of normal participation (think boxing or hockey) or completely inappropriate as they appear to be here. This is the equivalent of MMA fighter hitting the other guy with the stool. It is not inherently part of the rules of racing (no matter how many times you say it is) and it is inherently dangerous. The law, therefore, applies whether we like it or not. You don't get to do whatever you want just because you are voluntarily competing in a sport, sorry.
> 
> https://www.uakron.edu/dotAsset/d4a88d9c-809b-4a34-a304-8910932f92ae.pdf
> 
> ...


I recall about 10 years ago, some NHL hockey player used his stick to jab another player in the face, causing the later to sustain some serious face/head injury. Then the DA went after the former for some sort of assault charge. I don't recall what ended up happening to that case as I don't follow hockey much. But, suffice to say, you simply cannot do anything you like in a sporting event, even if that sporting event has danger elements in them.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Alaska Mike said:


> I can't really say (not a lawyer), but I certainly wish it would have turned out differently. If USAC does nothing, you can expect there will be a lot of unpleasantness in the region, and participation will suffer even more.


well in the original blog, the riders did call out, loud and clear, for USAC officials to do something. Afterward, I believe at least 1 USAC guy chimed in. I don't recall the convo exchange, but it's something like "we'll look into it". I'm afraid that means "we'll do nothing", in most cases. We'll see how this one pans out.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> If you can't understand that bumping and shouldering is a common occurrence in bike races, then you simply don't have enough experience bike racing.


Again, if you can't tell the difference between this and the typical "bumping and fighting for space" that happens in racing, you don't want to see it. I could care less either way, but this was clearly wrong, unnecessary, and had nothing to do with racing.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> Again, if you can't tell the difference between this and the typical "bumping and fighting for space" that happens in racing, you don't want to see it. I could care less either way, but this was clearly wrong, unnecessary, and had nothing to do with racing.


I agree with this 100%. If racing includes defending yourself against intentional malicious acts by the other participants, I'm not interested.

I get that it's a high speed, high aggression, close proximity activity. Accidents happen. But this was NOT an accident. The guy was not bracing himself against someone else making a dangerous move. He intentionally plowed into the guy from behind/side. It might happen, but, in my opinion, intentional aggressive acts like this should not be part of the sport.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

if a community of racers tolerate this type of behavior, then it's on them...

either boycott events where this demonstrated dirty rider shows up or 'educate' him on proper racing tactics...simple as that.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> Again, if you can't tell the difference between this and the typical "bumping and fighting for space" that happens in racing, you don't want to see it. I could care less either way, but this was clearly wrong, unnecessary, and had nothing to do with racing.


Well, okay then. We're going to disagree.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> Well, okay then. We're going to disagree.


So far all of the local racers I have talked with will disagree with you. Like I said, not one local guy has come out to support this Doyle guy. I can pretty much say that if this happens to you or to someone you know, you'd singing to a completely different tune.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> Again, if you can't tell the difference between this and the typical "bumping and fighting for space" that happens in racing, you don't want to see it. I could care less either way, but this was clearly wrong, unnecessary, and had nothing to do with racing.


it was a completely dirty move. It's sort of like clothelining a guy in afterschool playground football (without gears). F* I've gotten into fight with guys 2x my size for pulling that sheet on me. Masters crit racing in Socal reminds me of after school football in middle school. Not that I'm afraid, but i'm just too old for this stuff, so I choose to stay away from crit, and will continue to do so.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> it was a completely dirty move. It's sort of like clothelining a guy in afterschool playground football (without gears). F* I've gotten into fight with guys 2x my size for pulling that sheet on me. Masters crit racing in Socal reminds me of after school football in middle school. Not that I'm afraid, but i'm just too old for this stuff, so I choose to stay away from crit, and will continue to do so.


Yep, it's crazy to argue anything else in my opinion.


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