# Mad Fiber, ENVE 6.7, or ENVE 3.4?



## skappy7 (Apr 29, 2012)

So i decided that after getting into cycling a year ago and having raced collegiate this past season that i'm really into it and wheels seem like a logical upgrade instead of a new bike (correct me if i'm wrong...I have a caad10 105 right now)

Anyway, I've been checking out the Mad Fibers and love them. They're super unique and are lighter than (or equal to) the 6.7's and the 3.4's, respectively (in clincher)

But from what i've read, the ENVE smart system series are arguably the best wheelsets on the market. 

I guess my question is for general road racing and riding, are the Mad Fibers ok? Or should I go with 6.7s instead? Or should i not get deep aero wheels and get a set like the 3.4s. 

My current wheels weigh around 1800g so the "weight penalty" of the 6.7's doesn't seem like too big of a deal comparatively. 

Thanks in advance!!


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

What do you hope to achieve with new wheels?


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## skappy7 (Apr 29, 2012)

I'm doing some competitive racing, and I'm looking for a wheel that is stiff, light and aero to race on, to help improve my climbing and flat speeds.

I guess when it comes down to it I'm sold on Mad Fiber but have concerns with it being a new(ish) product...and have heard in crosswinds it's particularly slow. And they're loud. But they seem like such a great all around wheel...

As for ENVE, they just seem like such quality wheels but the 6.7's seem too deep for road racing and the 3.4's don't seem deep enough to help with flat speed.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

If you take a strong crosswind on a set of Mad Fibers, you're going into the ditch.

I think you're selling the Enve 3.4s short. Despite being somewhat shallower, toroidal rims have aero benefits of deeper V-shaped rims. I think you're also dismissing the staggered rim widths. You have 26mm up front and 24mm in the back. Mad Fibers are still the way of the dinosaur with 20mm wide rims, and I think you'll see much improved handling on the Enves.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

No one set of wheels will cover all conditions.
My response is based on you having a great set of reliable training wheels.
I'd start with the Enve3,4 as the next step, no limitations on them.
If you still need another wheel after them go for something deeper. At this point you can pick which wheel to use for the day.

Go with a good set of hubs and spokes, avoid proprietary parts.
MF wheels have their place, IMO they aren't for guys starting that can't buy more than one set. You need to ask yourself, what is the turn around time on getting a wheel fixed/repaired/replaced.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

mad fibers have weird aero properties - https://madfiber.com/aerodynamics 

Drag should decrease in yaw up to at least 15 degrees, but the mad fibers are really bad after 7 degrees. The Enve's are a lot better. 

$3k is a lot to invest in a wheelset. Personally, given your equipment, I'd invest no more than half of that in a wheelset and do some other upgrades if that's your total bike budget.


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## skappy7 (Apr 29, 2012)

Thanks for all the input!

I can get Mad Fibers for $2200 or zipps for $2100, but for ENVES i'd have to pay retail, which I don't think i can warrant the extra $800 for them unless they're really worth the additional price, which is why i want to find something wrong with them (proving to be difficult) and save myself some cash

I want to love Mad Fibers and I do but the iffy crosswinds are kind of pulling me away..

I'm looking to get a new bike either this winter or the start of next season (Time and Orbea are looking promising), so it's not really an issue of budget in that respect but saving $800 by not buying ENVE's would really be helpful for that endeavor.

Any other wheel suggestions are appreciated for sure! Thanks!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

wheel choice also depends on where you ride in terms of terrain, roads, winds, plus rider weight, what sort of races you do, etc.


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## skappy7 (Apr 29, 2012)

stevesbike said:


> wheel choice also depends on where you ride in terms of terrain, roads, winds, plus rider weight, what sort of races you do, etc.


Mostly in the Northeast, (MA and PA) so other than PA it's mostly flat with a few hills. I'm a CAT 4 and race collegiate in the spring in the ECCC with my university. As for weight, i'm around 165. 

Usually I don't see too many windy days but when it is windy...it's very windy.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

skappy7 said:


> Mostly in the Northeast, (MA and PA) so other than PA it's mostly flat with a few hills. I'm a CAT 4 and race collegiate in the spring in the ECCC with my university. As for weight, i'm around 165.
> 
> Usually I don't see too many windy days but when it is windy...it's very windy.


Get a decent pair of wheels for $700 or so, train hard, then get a set of light tubulars for racing as a reward for getting upgraded to Cat 3.


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## veloci1 (Nov 29, 2005)

take a look at the Boyd 44. theya re erally good wheels and Boyd and Nicole are top notch when it comes to customer service and product quality. i think their prices cannot be beat.

i have a few pairs and have not had a sinlge issue. i am about 20 lbs heavier than you and ride on some rough roads around my area. 

that will allow you to keep a lot of money to invenst on your next bike.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

SauronHimself said:


> If you take a strong crosswind on a set of Mad Fibers, you're going into the ditch.
> 
> I think you're selling the Enve 3.4s short. Despite being somewhat shallower, toroidal rims have aero benefits of deeper V-shaped rims. I think you're also dismissing the staggered rim widths. You have 26mm up front and 24mm in the back. Mad Fibers are still the way of the dinosaur with 20mm wide rims, and I think you'll see much improved handling on the Enves.


^this^ MadFiber are pretty much the least advanced of the deeper section carbon wheels available. and they can go out of true despite what their marketing says. Enve will be much, much easier to ride in windy conditions, and they're trueable. and they're strong. 



stevesbike said:


> mad fibers have weird aero properties - https://madfiber.com/aerodynamics
> 
> Drag should decrease in yaw up to at least 15 degrees, but the mad fibers are really bad after 7 degrees. The Enve's are a lot better.
> 
> $3k is a lot to invest in a wheelset. Personally, given your equipment, I'd invest no more than half of that in a wheelset and do some other upgrades if that's your total bike budget.


^this as well^ it's a ton of money to spend for collegiate racing (or even low to mid level amateur racing) where you're like to get crashed at least once a season. remember the rule...
_only race what you can afford to replace_


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

What Macklemore said about a $50 Gucci t-shirt also applies to most $3,000 wheels.


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## wheelgrl (May 29, 2013)

love my mad fibers! had them for two years, put them through hell on cross races and urban assault, never had a problem or didnt trust their integrity. HUGE advantage on hills and sprints. BEST warranty program in the industry, no rider weight limit.. I had envys before too, great wheelset, however i personally prefer the MF wheels for all around wheel performance. check out this forum too.. Mad Fiber Wheels: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

happy riding!


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

You can have a custom set of Enve SES wheels made with White Industries T11 hubs for under $2500. For the best balance of aero, stiffness, durability, and stability the Enve SES rims are the way to go.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

wheelgrl said:


> love my mad fibers! had them for two years, put them through hell on cross races and urban assault, never had a problem or didnt trust their integrity. *HUGE advantage on hills and sprints.* BEST warranty program in the industry, no rider weight limit.. I had envys before too, great wheelset, however i personally prefer the MF wheels for all around wheel performance. check out this forum too.. Mad Fiber Wheels: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums
> 
> happy riding!


care to explain how physics no longer applies to you?


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

wheelgrl said:


> love my mad fibers! had them for two years, put them through hell on cross races and urban assault, never had a problem or didnt trust their integrity. HUGE advantage on hills and sprints. BEST warranty program in the industry, no rider weight limit.. I had envys before too, great wheelset, however i personally prefer the MF wheels for all around wheel performance. check out this forum too.. Mad Fiber Wheels: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums
> 
> happy riding!


I hear Captain America prefers Mad Fibers to his shield when fighting Hydra.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

IMO, Enve 3.4 SES are overkill on a Cannondale CAAD10 105. You'd be surprised (I think) at the difference between your aluminum frame and a carbon fiber frame when it comes time to apply the power to the pedals. But...that's not what you're asking.

I realize it's hard to resist the urge for carbon rims, but considering you're racing, I think you'd be better off with some custom aluminum wheels built around either HED Belgium or Pacenti SL23 rims with hubs by Chris King or Alchemy. You'll save a lot of money. It won't hurt your wallet as badly if you crash and damage a rim, and I don't believe you'll notice much difference between the aluminum rims with excellent hubs and a set of Enve 3.4 SES wheels.

I've owned the Enve 3.4 SES, and I presently own HED Belgium/Alchemy wheels (and a set of Zipp 202 clincher...which I prefer over the Enve 3.4 SES). If I raced crits, I sure wouldn't run the Zipp 202 wheels. Road racing...maybe.

I'd also look at the Dura Ace 9000 C24 wheels as an option.


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## skappy7 (Apr 29, 2012)

After this I think i'm gonna follow some logic here and look at some cheaper wheels and save up for a new complete bike when the right one comes along (Time ZXRS or Orbea Gold)

Thanks for talking some sense into me everyone, I'm looking at HED Ardennes FR or Jet 4's (or Jet 5's...can't seem to figure out the difference other than the hubs/skewers), ends up being around $1000 less (or more in the case of the ENVE's). Definitely worth saving up for an awesome bike later. Probably will be my present when I upgrade to 3's or B's in collegiate.

Also, thanks for pointing out the rim shape on the Mad's versus others. Didn't really even notice that....the Jet 4's have a shape more resembling 404's


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

To address the issue of wheel trueness with Mad Fiber wheels, I sent the following email to their customer service a while back just to see how they'd deal with it.

My email: "I have a question about the trueness of your wheels. Granted, they
come straight and true from the factory, but what happens if the wheels
should ever go out of true? You might claim it can't happen, but I have seen
it happen with carbon wheels where the spokes were permanently bonded to the
hub and rims. My friend had this happen with his Lightweight wheels, and
there was no damage to any part of the wheel, yet he can't fix them and get
them true again."

I got a reply later that day from Louis: "Great question. In theory, wheels like Mad Fiber and Lightweight where carbon spokes are bonded to a carbon rim with carbon hub shells should not change shape (trueness) once all the bonds and resin is cured. That is the scientific reasoning behind these claims. In the real-world, things happen. Bonds can be partially broken and carbon fiber can crack, but still remain invisible to the naked eye. These can change the tension in the spokes and affect trueness of the wheel. While these scenarios are very unlikely, it is possible.

At Mad Fiber, we can repair or replace any wheel that should come out of its original trueness under our warranty policy.

I hope this answers your question.

Louis
Mad Fiber"


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

skappy7 said:


> I'm doing some competitive racing, and I'm looking for a wheel that is stiff, light and aero to race on, to help improve my climbing and flat speeds.
> 
> I guess when it comes down to it I'm sold on Mad Fiber but have concerns with it being a new(ish) product...and have heard in crosswinds it's particularly slow. And they're loud. But they seem like such a great all around wheel...
> 
> As for ENVE, they just seem like such quality wheels but the 6.7's seem too deep for road racing and the 3.4's don't seem deep enough to help with flat speed.


Mad Fiber wheels are really only lightweight. Since I live where Mad Fiber wheels come from, tons of riders here have them. They shatter on contact in races, they rub brake pads under pedaling force, and they just are not particularly aerodynamic.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> mad fibers have weird aero properties - https://madfiber.com/aerodynamics
> 
> Drag should decrease in yaw up to at least 15 degrees, but the mad fibers are really bad after 7 degrees. The Enve's are a lot better.
> 
> $3k is a lot to invest in a wheelset. Personally, given your equipment,* I'd invest no more than half of that in a wheelset and do some other upgrades if that's your total bike budget*.


I wouldn't invest a penny in anything except wheels and tires. If he is racing collegiate, the 105 parts are a perfect match for him. You don't need Ultegra or Dura Ace to be fast. the less than 10% weight savings is totally negligible, and the performance benefits are likely less.


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## skappy7 (Apr 29, 2012)

spookyload said:


> I wouldn't invest a penny in anything except wheels and tires. If he is racing collegiate, the 105 parts are a perfect match for him. You don't need Ultegra or Dura Ace to be fast. the less than 10% weight savings is totally negligible, and the performance benefits are likely less.


That was my thought, I figured i'd get ultegra or dura ace with a new bike when i get CAT3. Collegiate mostly everyone has a cheapish bike (especially caad10's) or they're really expensive.

I ended up buying HED Jet 4's for around $1500 today, seems like a good fit and not too pricey compared to zipps ( which should probably be tubulars or nothing which weren't practical for me yet). For sure lighter and more aero than my stock wheels. Got a pair of Vittoria Open Corsa CX III's too, big upgrade from my last tires


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## mann2 (Oct 16, 2012)

technology wise, i'd ride with the SES 3.4 all day..... my wallet disagrees though.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

mtbpete said:


> You can have a custom set of Enve SES wheels made with White Industries T11 hubs for under $2500. For the best balance of aero, stiffness, durability, and stability the Enve SES rims are the way to go.


This!

The 5 year warranty on the Enve really speaks for their durability.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Zen Cyclery said:


> This!
> 
> The 5 year warranty on the Enve really speaks for their durability.


Their durability is only as good as the first time you melt one on a steep descent. They may warranty your wheel, but they're not warrantying your backside. 

I like Enve. I think they're a neat company and make a good product. Their wheels are ideal for those on flats or rolling terrain. I do not recommend their clinchers (or any other full carbon clincher) for anyone whose rides include lots of descending.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm not reading all the posts; the answer is Enve 6.7


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

PaxRomana said:


> Their durability is only as good as the first time you melt one on a steep descent. They may warranty your wheel, but they're not warrantying your backside.
> 
> I like Enve. I think they're a neat company and make a good product. Their wheels are ideal for those on flats or rolling terrain. I do not recommend their clinchers (or any other full carbon clincher) for anyone whose rides include lots of descending.


I think that the SES lineup is the exception. The textured brake track makes braking much grabbier which allows you to use less force when braking. This combined with the wide foot print of the hoop make for surprisingly efficient heat dissipation. 

I would trust my 3.4 clinchers on any descent. They've done 2500ft descents no problem. 

Keep in mind braking technique is always key. You shouldn't have to drag the brakes for 99% of descents.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I think that the SES lineup is the exception. The textured brake track makes braking much grabbier which allows you to use less force when braking. This combined with the wide foot print of the hoop make for surprisingly efficient heat dissipation.
> 
> I would trust my 3.4 clinchers on any descent. They've done 2500ft descents no problem.
> 
> Keep in mind braking technique is always key. You shouldn't have to drag the brakes for 99% of descents.


I've heard the same thing from companies for years. "We solved the braking issue!" Every year. 

Textured brake track and wide rim? Why exactly does that make for better heat dissipation?

Let's see what Zinn says about the matter.
Tech FAQ: All about carbon clinchers

Velonews?
The Torqued Wrench: Taking on the carbon clincher

Carbon clinchers are a foolish purchase for those who ride mountains on a consistent basis.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

PaxRomana said:


> I've heard the same thing from companies for years. "We solved the braking issue!" Every year.
> 
> Textured brake track and wide rim? Why exactly does that make for better heat dissipation?
> 
> ...


Lennard said the following in the article that you linked: 

My experience with doing a lot of testing of carbon clinchers on Flagstaff Mountain above Boulder is that shorter, more powerful braking produces less heat buildup than does prolonged braking.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Lennard said the following in the article that you linked:
> 
> My experience with doing a lot of testing of carbon clinchers on Flagstaff Mountain above Boulder is that shorter, more powerful braking produces less heat buildup than does prolonged braking.


Don't be disingenuous. He also said:



> "If I weighed 275 pounds, you would not catch me riding any carbon clincher wheels unless I were to ride them only on flat and rolling terrain. I think that because of heat developed during braking, riding a carbon clincher at your weight on mountain descents would be ill-advised."


Velonews also says


> "Every current carbon clincher has gravely (in the literal sense of the word) serious problems with heat management. Even if they rarely reach the glass transition (melting) points of their resins, an event that causes the sidewalls to warp outwards with predictably explosive results, they still generate massive localized heat figures, upwards of 400 degrees Fahrenheit — so hot that manufacturers don’t recommend using latex tubes because they’ll explode.
> 
> With full-carbon construction, the heat problems are unavoidable. "


That article was current.

You have a vested interest in seeing people buy Enve wheels. I get that, but misleading customers is VERY lame. You're implying that customers can avoid the braking issue by changing their habits. Sure, you can change your habits, but you still have the problems. I know how to brake on carbon clinchers, and I've melted both Enve and Reynolds rims.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Carbon rim technology has come a long way. 5 years ago. Hell even 2 years ago you would have been right. I really don't think thats the case anymore though (with the SES lineup at least).


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

I just purchased a set of chinese carbon clinchers. 23mm X 50mm with "basalt" braking surface. Granted I only weigh between 135 and 140 pounds (so I can't vouch for heavier riders) but I took them out the other day for the purpose of testing the heat build up during braking on descents. 

First off, with the blue brake pads that came with the wheels, these wheels brake just as good (at least in dry conditions) as my aluminum clinchers. 

I started off on some smaller hills (slow descents) and built up to some high speed descents. I switched between some runs with hard braking front and rear to modulating front and rear to riding both brakes on long descents.

At the bottom of each run I felt the brake track and it was only mildly warm on each run. I was actually really surprised as on some of the same runs with my aluminum clinchers the brake track has become so hot that I couldn't even touch it.

I'm not saying that carbon clinchers won't fail under extreme conditions but I'm feeling a lot more comfortable about them now that I tested them for myself.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Carbon rim technology has come a long way. 5 years ago. Hell even 2 years ago you would have been right. I really don't think thats the case anymore though (with the SES lineup at least).


Of course you don't think that. You SELL these wheels. And by the way, the article on Velonews is current, not from 2 years ago. 

I'm not trying to persuade YOU otherwise. I just find the "advice" you offer on there to be quite a bit self-serving and very misleading. Nobody has solved the full carbon clincher heat issue.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

PaxRomana said:


> Nobody has solved the full carbon clincher heat issue.


Disc brakes...


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Disc brakes...


Yep, that's really the only way so far. Rim brakes and carbon clinchers aren't friends.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

For steep descents. I live in the hilly SF Bay area but do not ride on any hills that need extended braking and I weigh in north of 200lbs. I would be fine with carbon rims but do not ride them for other reasons.


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## Cni2i (Jun 28, 2010)

I know OP already made his decision...but another vote here for ENVE 3.4s tubulars (laced with CK R45s in my case) as one of the very best all-around wheels out there.


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## disaster999 (Jan 28, 2013)

Just to put in my $0.02, went down the same road on carbon wheel searching. I pretty much disregarded all the traditional V shaped profile as most sources say they are old technology and can be scary in cross wind conditions. 

I went to a LBS to check out wheels, saw a set of Madfibers, picked it up and instantly put it back down. The build quality is HORRIBLE. The bonds arent uniform, gaps are visible everywhere, the weaves dont match, the hub finish is extremely rough. I dont doubt its ability to roll on the road. But if Im paying that kind of money for carbon wheels, I dont expect to get a piece of turd in return.

I was left with Zipp 303 FC and Enve 3.4 SES. At the end I chose the Zipp 303 because they are significantly cheaper than the Enve. Im sure I'll happy with either wheels


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

If we could find a way to greatly lessen the expense of producing graphene from its current CVD process, then we could really solve the carbon rim heating issue without adding basalt resins or using aluminum brake tracks that add weight.


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## MTBDad (Jan 27, 2003)

LOVE my 6.7's!! They are very tame in the winds I experience. The ENVE customer service is second to none. Riding their Stems, Bars and Forks as well as wheels. Have a set of Firecrest 303's that I also love, but feel the Enve's are a cut above everything else. With all due respect to the previous posters, I suspect that were Zen's comments strictly self serving and based solely on their desire to sell a premium product, they wouldn't be as successfull selling those products as they are. Given the propensity of participants on these boards to be only too keen to positive negative reviews and opinions, don't recall seeing their name associated with any. I would argue that the opinion of someone building and selling thousands of wheels and seeing their performance in the real world (i.e. returns, warranties) would make them uniquely qualified to render an opinion.


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## izza (Jul 25, 2012)

I have recently put 6.7's with CK 45's on my Venge.

I love them. Despite the rim depth compared to my old Mavic SLR's they are very stable in the wind and seem very hardwearing with no issues at all. If you can fit them in your budget then they are great as an everyday wheel.


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