# C60 for Criteriums



## kondre2000 (Mar 11, 2008)

So a friend of mine is selling his C60. I have had a thing for Colnagos and owned a C40. I have been racing on my 2011 SWorks Tarmac SL3 for 5 years and race mostly Crits. I have ridden his C60 and it fits very well and yes it rides completely different from the SL3. its a lot more muted and no where near as twitchy, which I have come to enjoy actually. This is not to say that I dont like the ride of the C60 as well. I do like it, but I am just wondering if anyone here has had their C60 for a season and has raced it in local crits. Yes, if I get it, I WILL race it in crits, they are meant to be raced, not babied.
Im just wondering if anyone has and what they thought of it in a crit.

thanks

Kevin


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

You may think all bikes are meant to be raced, but they're intended for different disciplines.

Sure the C60 will work in a crit, but it's not a crit bike. Crit bikes have specific geometry characteristics. The C60 is a road bike. 

So it's sort of like putting TT bars on a road bike to race a TT. Not ideal.

Ideally, of course, you'd want something with shorter chainstays, a higher bb, a tighter wheelbase, tighter steering... you know the deal.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> You may think all bikes are meant to be raced, but they're intended for different disciplines.
> 
> Sure the C60 will work in a crit, but it's not a crit bike. Crit bikes have specific geometry characteristics. The C60 is a road bike.
> 
> ...


Can you actually name such a bike? The days of criterium geometry are long past.

His Tarmac SL3 is also 'just' a road bike.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Kontact said:


> Can you actually name such a bike? The days of criterium geometry are long past.
> 
> His Tarmac SL3 is also 'just' a road bike.


Yes, they are getting rare because road bikes have been moving toward crit geometry over the recent years.

When carbon came about, companies kept trying to make chain stays as short as possible for stiffness. Something completely not needed with proper carbon engineering. I asked a couple companies about why they have such short chain stays on carbon road bikes and have always gotten a response about aesthetics. 

They also come with bottom brackets too high for the most part. No road bike needs or should have a BB drop of 68mm. That's ridiculous, but it's almost industry standard. Thankfully some bikes now a days are switching back to around 72-75mm, where they belong.

Anyway, what's left now a days as a crit bike? Maybe the Allez Sprint?


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Yes, they are getting rare because road bikes have been moving toward crit geometry over the recent years.
> 
> When carbon came about, companies kept trying to make chain stays as short as possible for stiffness. Something completely not needed with proper carbon engineering. I asked a couple companies about why they have such short chain stays on carbon road bikes and have always gotten a response about aesthetics.
> 
> ...


No, they haven't. Crit geometry has short wheelbases from sub-40cm stays and vertical HTAs. 8 years ago Cervelo had bikes with short chainstays, but everyone is 403mm or longer today. And you will have a hard time finding a 56cm frame with anything steeper than a 73° HTA.

Modern bikes are much closer to Lemond stage race geometry than any sort of crit specific geometry. Take a long look at the geometry charts. They tell the real story.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Well if you think that 403 is a long chain stay, therein lies our differences.

According to frame makers like Baum, road bike chain stays should be a minimum of 412mm, and only if the rider is very flexible. More like 420mm for the average rider or 430mm for the taller rider. The standard 405 is too short for anyone on a road bike in my opinion and in the opinion of Baum and others.

Steeper than 73 degrees is not uncommon on road bikes these days. Let's use your Cervelo example and their road bike the R5. The one sitting next to me from 2014 is steeper than 73 degrees, even down to the 54cm size. The newest models have been changed and max out at 73 degrees now.

I take long looks at geometry charts, I understand them just fine.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Well if you think that 403 is a long chain stay, therein lies our differences.
> 
> According to frame makers like Baum, road bike chain stays should be a minimum of 412mm, and only if the rider is very flexible. More like 420mm for the average rider or 430mm for the taller rider. The standard 405 is too short for anyone on a road bike in my opinion and in the opinion of Baum and others.
> 
> ...


Then you would be aware of the history we're talking about and know that Cervelo used to have 399 chainstays:

https://www.racycles.com/product/detail/1432

And Cannondale's "Criterium" bikes had 399mm chainstays and 74.25° HTA on 56cm frames. Litespeed Ultimate - 393mm. Which isn't as short as the Gios Compact at 390. And none of those bikes were as short as bikes with split seat tubes so the tire comes right up against the BB shell.

With all respect to Baum, chainstay lengths have nothing to do with flexibility. 412mm is not unreasonable, but it isn't pushing any sort of limit.


This is all a good example of revising history. As little as 10 years ago bikes had smaller wheelbases than you can find today, so when someone wants to sound "reasonable" they have to make relatively conservative geometry sound radical, even if it isn't. According to Baum the old Lemond geometry is way too tight, which is ridiculous.


If you ever run into one of those old Cannondales - hop on. You'll be shocked how rideable they are with wheel bases several inches shorter than what you're used to.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)




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## kondre2000 (Mar 11, 2008)

good comments back and forth guys.

I have to agree that the C60 isnt for crits. it is nice, and being right here and easy to get (its already in my basement) I am pretty tempted. but if im honest to myself, its really not what im looking for. the CX-1 evo, now that is a frame I dont think I could pass up. that one is built for what i want. problem is finding one that isnt over priced.
thanks guys.
Kevin


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## kondre2000 (Mar 11, 2008)

So the price on the C60 is incredible, so much so, I think I am going to do it, Ill still crit the bastard.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

c60 is a high end bike , that's why its not raced that much by amateurs. if you get one at at a good price and you can afford to lose it why not. i used to see many people racing on older c-50's they bought on ebay, so why not a c-60.


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