# 'Splain Garmin to Me



## SRV (Dec 26, 2006)

It's plain to me that Garmin is way overhyped by media and cycling fans here in the US. I can't recall a race where they, as a team, animated a race and were dominant, or even get in breaks for that matter (I know there have been riders in a few breaks but it's rare). Anyone else notice that when the cameras show the rear of the peloton you can usually see two or three Garmin riders hanging back there? What exactly have Millar, Zabriskie, and Dean done in the Giro? Hovewer, kudos must go out to Bradley Wiggins - he is having an exceptional ride. Farrar ain't doing so bad either.

Meanwhile, Columbia wins races left and right, and rarely do they miss a break. They also seem to have the best crop of young riders (Cavendish, Suitsou, Boassen Hagen, Lovkvist) of any team.

So why does it seem that Garmin gets the attention as the "American" team? More American riders?


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

SRV said:


> It's plain to me that Garmin is way overhyped by media and cycling fans here in the US. I can't recall a race where they, as a team, animated a race and were dominant, or even get in breaks for that matter (I know there have been riders in a few breaks but it's rare). Anyone else notice that when the cameras show the rear of the peloton you can usually see two or three Garmin riders hanging back there? What exactly have Millar, Zabriskie, and Dean done in the Giro? Hovewer, kudos must go out to Bradley Wiggins - he is having an exceptional ride. Farrar ain't doing so bad either.
> 
> Meanwhile, Columbia wins races left and right, and rarely do they miss a break. They also seem to have the best crop of young riders (Cavendish, Suitsou, Boassen Hagen, Lovkvist) of any team.
> 
> So why does it seem that Garmin gets the attention as the "American" team? More American riders?


Don't forget they also have Tommy D! Besides, it's all about the argyle.


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## BenR (Dec 14, 2001)

*Give em a break.*

High Road has their act together, but don't start dissing poor Garmin.

1. Watch the entire season before handing down judgement. 4 more months to go.
2. Garmin lost their GC guy. Bad for motivation, no matter who you are.
3. It's only 1 week into a 3 week race. 
4. Teams can have good and bad seasons, just like individuals. It helps to create your own luck, but some years everything goes right in spite of best efforts to sabotage yourself, and other times everyone can be on top form and doing everything right, but then injuries happen and the race gods decide that this is not going to be your season. They missed a couple breaks last week for whatever reason and had to do A LOT of work on some rough stages. Not a recommended strategy, but it happens. Try going break hunting the day after that. At this point they may have been instructed to cool their heels a little bit, either for some reasonable stages later on, or July.

As to why Garmin is so much more popular, got me. Maybe it's because they were the first team to try a radically different kit in a while. Maybe it's because they were the underdogs and won a major ttt last year. Maybe it's because Vaughters always has the right thing to say at the right time. Maybe it's because the PR guys are better at their job?


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## choocher (Jan 14, 2009)

*well . . .*



BenR said:


> High Road has their act together, but don't start dissing poor Garmin.
> 
> 1. Watch the entire season before handing down judgement. 4 more months to go.
> 2. Garmin lost their GC guy. Bad for motivation, no matter who you are.
> ...


Maybe it's because a lot of people still think of High Road as not only _a _German team, but _the _German team, even if that isn't really so for the most part anymore.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Part of professional cycling is insuring that your sponsor gets lots of press. Garmin is doing a great job of that.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

SRV said:


> So why does it seem that Garmin gets the attention as the "American" team? More American riders?


I think that's it, fer sure. For better or worse, Garmin is the de-facto entry point into international cycling for young USA riders. Other than Craig Lewis, who has Columbia brought in?

Does anyone else think Zabriskie is purposefully sandbagging the Giro and not giving anything away for the Tour? He looks so different than in California.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

They are a good team. Maybe not the best, but a good team. You can't win them all and you can't always cheer for the winning team just because they are a winning team. Country loyalty and cool outfits. Isn't cycling all about country loyalty and looking good??

French guys cheer for french teams, Spain for Spaniards, Italy for Italians, etc.....

I'm a sucker for Argyle...........and they're a clean team (right?) who likes to eat potatoes on their rides. Good old Idaho potatoes! How american is that! Screw french fries, just eat the whole potato(e)!


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## Sojourneyman (Jun 22, 2007)

I think its largely because they are the american team, and so they get some more coverage. They were also one of the first to take a hard stance against doping. And yes, it seems they've got good PR going on. 

As for the Giro, VdV is hurt, Millar is coming off a broken collarbone, Farrar is doing great and Wiggins is showing great form. Sine they're an American team, their largest stage is the TdF, and I'll expect they'll do better there. I think you'll see a strong showing from them in the TT this week though. 

I think perhaps if we were all from belgium we'd be having this talk about silence-lotto, who've done less than Garmin.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

At least the race was slow enough today that they could get to the front to see what the view was like.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

moonmoth said:


> I think that's it, fer sure. For better or worse, Garmin is the de-facto entry point into international cycling for young USA riders. Other than Craig Lewis, who has Columbia brought in?
> 
> Does anyone else think Zabriskie is purposefully sandbagging the Giro and not giving anything away for the Tour? He looks so different than in California.


He hasn't TT'd yet, what form are you looking for? Z is a tter, cali isn't italy or france. Why do people all of a sudden think Zabriskie is the next great american hope?


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

kbiker3111 said:


> He hasn't TT'd yet, what form are you looking for? Z is a tter, cali isn't italy or france. Why do people all of a sudden think Zabriskie is the next great american hope?


Who said anything about a next American hope?

DZ has proved over the past two years that he is more than a TT'er, and he has shown climbing prowess in a previous Giro and other European races. 

If anything, he does not seem to be a TT contender anymore.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

American teams most important race is TDF, see lance armstrong, it appears they are putting in miles for it.


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*What??*



Mike T. said:


> At least the race was slow enough today that they could get to the front to see what the view was like.


They've been at the front a lot on the flat stages.. Where have you been?


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## SRV (Dec 26, 2006)

Mosovich said:


> They've been at the front a lot on the flat stages.. Where have you been?



Seriously? I've watched every stage and see an argyle jersey near the front occasionally, but only a single rider usually and not for long. If they've been on the front on flat stages, where has Farrar's leadout train been? This guy is finishing top five with no help at all, a la McEwen. You'll see Columbia and LPR pulling in the last few K's but no Garmin.

And then you have Wiggins hanging on the climbs all by himself with the next Garmin finisher ten minutes behind.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

For a team that lost their only real GC guy, finished second in the TTT, and has Tyler Farrar regularly placing in the top 5 on the 3 sprint finishes we've had thus far, I think they're doing A LOT better than more than half the other teams in the Giro peloton.

Remember T-Mobile, um I mean Columbia High Road, inherited the US$15MM plus budget that T-Mobile passed along to High Road which bridged them through to Columbia taking over. They are well-funded and can afford to pay these riders. Also, Stapleton's focus is to get international riders. Although it's a U.S.-flagged team with a U.S. sponsor, for all intents and purposes it's a multinational team. Vaughters has more Americans on Garmin than any other European team, and has less budget than Stapleton.

Also don't forget in the 2008 TdF how well Garmin did (surprising many) with CVV getting top 5 and Willy Frischkorn taking 2nd on a stage in a long breakaway. 

Let's also not forget that Vaughters a couple of years ago took some radical (at the time) steps to impose an anti-doping, dont-worry-about-the-results ethos that many other teams have yet to emulate.

Personally, Garmin is not my favorite team, but I think they're doing fine.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

fornaca68 said:


> Remember T-Mobile, um I mean Columbia High Road, inherited the US$15MM plus budget that T-Mobile passed along to High Road which bridged them through to Columbia taking over. They are well-funded and can afford to pay these riders. Also, Stapleton's focus is to get international riders. Although it's a U.S.-flagged team with a U.S. sponsor, for all intents and purposes it's a multinational team. Vaughters has more Americans on Garmin than any other European team, and has less budget than Stapleton.
> 
> .


True, Garmin's budget is about 1/2 Columbia's


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I like 'em and I like what they stand for. I was hoping to see VDV get some good results this year; I wish he would quit crashing.


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## agm2 (Sep 18, 2008)

Also a lot of their race plans have had to change because of injuries. I know, VDV is know injured, along with Euser. Millar, Farrar and some other riders where injured also. There was a week when they had 3-4 riders on injured reserve. 

They also have different tactics. Columbia seems to focus on getting cav to the line where Garmin seems more focused on GC. Those riders at the back might be sitting there waiting for the team car to get closer so they can run back and get water bottles and food for the other members.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

Garmin is led by a new generation of riders who are committed to drug-free racing.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

I've been railing on this subject on a couple of different threads, and while I'm still disappaointed by the TEAMS performance thus far, you have to give credit to Farrar and Wiggins.

From the moment they made their team selection for the Giro you knew Garmin wasn't in it for GC. Those of you who think VDV was riding for a top 10 are mistaken. If you look at the way they used this race last year, you can see that they're following the same plan. Their top finisher last year was VDV, 52nd at 1 hour and 44 minutes behind. Obviously he's gone so it looks like they're letting Wiggins test his "road legs" a bit. As far as Tom Danielson goes, part of me thinks he's under orders not to burn himself out and to ride himself into form for July. He's not too far off of how VDV was riding last year, and if you're following the overall, he's been steadily moving up (at 77th now). I'm in no way implying that he's this years VDV, but with VDV going down and his form now in question for July, it'll be up to Danielson and Hesjedal to shepherd VDV through the mountains at the TDF.

Now that I've defended Garmin to a point, allow me to bash them. 21st out of 22 in the team competition is not good for a pro tour team. Last year when they were a wildcard pro conti invite, They won the TTT, got into some good breaks, and performed very well in the Itt's. No matter how good Farrar and Wiggins have looked, the rest of the team (minus maybe Tommy D) have looked horrible. Injuries have obviously slowed Dean and Miller, and Meyer is on his first Grand Tour, but Zabriskie and Pate riding in with the grupetto is puzzling to me. Both seemed to have good form coming into the Giro, but meither has shown it. Maybe they're saving themselves for the ITT's, or maybe it's just the first week of a 3 week race and they'll animate over the next 2. I guess I'll reserve complete judgement until then.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

ok all you haters, I am going on record, predicting a Garmin stage win in the Giro.

and it won't be Farrar.

if I am wrong, I will eat an entire potatoe at one sitting.


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## ProRoad (Oct 13, 2008)

I think Tyler wins a stage, maybe even in the tour.
I have seen the team at the front quite a bit actually, other people's observations crack me up. Not my favorite team but doing pretty damn well, especially from a sponsor perspective.

Brian


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

ProRoad said:


> I think Tyler wins a stage, maybe even in the tour.
> I have seen the team at the front quite a bit actually, other people's observations crack me up. Not my favorite team but doing pretty damn well, especially from a sponsor perspective.
> 
> Brian


I'd love to see Tyler take a stage, but unfortunatley this Giro isn't really giving the sprinters alot of chances. Cycling news is also reporting that Tyler may withdraw after Friday I believe. As far as other people's observations, I think most of us may have been lulled into higher expectations. We've seen Garmin at the front for the few sprint stages (2 and 3) and maybe a bit during stage 7, but other than Wiggins they've been somewhat invisible. 

As of the rest day only Wiggins and Danielson are in the top 100, and Danielson continues to finish with the 3rd or 4th big group on the road 5 - 10 minutes behind. Like I said earlier, it's only 1 week into a 3 week race and they're not going for GC, so maybe they're just letting the contenders get settled in and they'll animate the second half of the race.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> if I am wrong, I will eat an entire potatoe at one sitting.




..........Fatty..........


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## mendo (Apr 18, 2007)

rook said:


> Garmin is led by a new generation of riders who are committed to drug-free racing.


Agreed. I recall around the time of last year's tour a lot of coverage about how aggressive their doping controls are, including a NY Times article. They're the supposed "Clean Team" in a tainted sport, although I think a lot of other teams have instituted comparable doping controls. They've also got Millar, the rider who symbolizes reform and repentance in the sport.

For a long time it seemed like every article I read on cycling was doping related. Floyd, Puerto, Tyler, Puerto, Puerto-Puerto-Puerto. Covering slipstream was a way of covering doping in cycling in a positive light, something to feel good about.


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## peter1 (Apr 10, 2002)

If you take Vaughters at his word -- and there's little reason not to -- racing clean is equal to ticking off victories. Remember, he built the team from basically a semi-pro development squad, hustling for sponsors etc. Yeah, he loves the camera, but he's a smart, witty guy (remember his columns from 10 years ago in procycling?). So far, no doping embarrassment, which is pretty much what the sponsors want to hear at this point, and VdV's 5th in the Tour was freakin' huge, believe me. 

Stapleton has done wondrous things with a team that was basically on one huge doping umbilical cord, but he started on third base, as they say. And every new revelation in the news about Telekom mentions that the team is now Columbia, and they don't all note Stapleton's antidrug stance.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Another stellar performance by the boys in argyle today. Wiggins 88th at 12:34, Danielson 111, Miller 122 at 26:06, Farrar 154, Meyer 169, pate 175, Zabriskie 182, and Dean 187 at 35:12. DFL in the team classification. ISD had 3 riders in a break today, I didn't see Garmin in a single one. Perhaps Cav was right, one trick pony.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

coop said:


> Another stellar performance by the boys in argyle today. Wiggins 88th at 12:34, Danielson 111, Miller 122 at 26:06, Farrar 154, Meyer 169, pate 175, Zabriskie 182, and Dean 187 at 35:12. DFL in the team classification. ISD had 3 riders in a break today, I didn't see Garmin in a single one. Perhaps Cav was right, one trick pony.


They're holding back 'till the final week when everyone else is burned out.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> They're holding back 'till the final week when everyone else is burned out.



Holding back for what??? Why bother coming to a 3 week race if you're going to take 2 weeks off? There are plenty of other teams that have no GC chances that are getting in the breaks, taking chances, etc..., But it seems as soon as the grupetto forms, Garmin sends 5 riders to represent. Like I said, I'm thinking more and more that Cav was right


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

coop said:


> Holding back for what?


I was being facetious. Big time.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> I was being facetious. Big time.



Should've figured that out on my own, thanks for clearing it up:thumbsup:


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

coop said:


> Another stellar performance by the boys in argyle today. Wiggins 88th at 12:34, Danielson 111, Miller 122 at 26:06, Farrar 154, Meyer 169, pate 175, Zabriskie 182, and Dean 187 at 35:12. DFL in the team classification. .


When I read this I actually laughed out loud.


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## wsriii (May 23, 2006)

I never did understand the need for a gps device in the first place!

Bill


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

coop said:


> Another stellar performance by the boys in argyle today. Wiggins 88th at 12:34, Danielson 111, Miller 122 at 26:06, Farrar 154, Meyer 169, pate 175, Zabriskie 182, and Dean 187 at 35:12. DFL in the team classification. ISD had 3 riders in a break today, I didn't see Garmin in a single one. Perhaps Cav was right, one trick pony.


With a few more performances like this, they'll be lucky to be invited back next year.


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Frarar..*

2nd today.. That's better than a lot of teams have done!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Mosovich said:


> 2nd today.. That's better than a lot of teams have done!


Farrar has been contesting every bunch sprint in the race. But as always, unless you're attacking off the front, you're not doing anything of value.

For that matter, Sexo Bank has been pretty lame as well.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

a single stage win will vindicate Garmin (at least in Vaughters' eyes).

and dang I'm jonesing for a potatoe.


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Tough crowd..*

you guys are a tough crowd.. I mean, why don't you go to the Garmin site and just tell the guys they suck.. Are you out there racing? None of us knows what's going on.. I think they are doing a good job.. What have other teams than Columbia, and LPR done? Yeah, they may be last in team competition, but they are up there fighting for sprint wins.. What has QS done other than this? What as Astana done? Yeah, they've attacked some, but that's it.. Garmin has been on the stage a few times with Farrar which is more than most teams can say..


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> True, Garmin's budget is about 1/2 Columbia's


Which is quite good considering they've only got a quarter of the talent.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Mosovich said:


> you guys are a tough crowd.. I mean, why don't you go to the Garmin site and just tell the guys they suck.. Are you out there racing? None of us knows what's going on.. I think they are doing a good job.. What have other teams than Columbia, and LPR done? Yeah, they may be last in team competition, but they are up there fighting for sprint wins.. What has QS done other than this? What as Astana done? Yeah, they've attacked some, but that's it.. Garmin has been on the stage a few times with Farrar which is more than most teams can say..



Actually, I did go to the Garmin site and asked them what was up with populating the grupetto and being ranked 21st out of 22 in the team classification. They chose not to post that one.

As for what have they done?, other than Farrar, nothing. Wiggins was a nice first week surprise, but he's beggining the slow fade back to reality. You compare them to the other teams, but how many breaks have they been in? That's what the other teams are doing. Today was the first day I saw a Garmin rider mentioned in a break, and that was squashed with more than 70k left. If you're not riding for GC, get in a break, make some noise, animate. Even their sprint train is misfiring. They had 3 riders counting Farrar at the front with 2k left today, at 1k their last rider pulled of and almost took out Ale jet. Maybe our expectations are too high, but they're also underperforming.


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

Well, Dan Martin was third in a mountain stage of Catalunya today, and is lying in 6th overall. He also praised his team-mates for the work they did in protecting him during the stage.

I think the problem with the Garmin team at the Giro is that too many of them think of themselves as guaranteed picks for the Tour team, and are just using this as training.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> a single stage win will vindicate Garmin (at least in Vaughters' eyes).


Some of us value a consistent Garmin (let's say in the top 15) GC finisher over a sprinting victory, or a string of top three sprinting finishes. Perhaps we're just spoiled by the tradition of USA GC success and have not yet adopted the perspective that stage wins are a sign of success even if a rider is three hours down overall and most of the team holds court everyday in the grupetto. 

JV and Garmin may celebrate a Farrar win someday in a Grand Tour but that's certainly not what the team was built for. He's even admitted as much!


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

Wow.... some of you negative nannies... Tyler has just missed on his sprint on several stages and the team just missed the ttt... and yes I agree they have not had the best tour so far and have had a huge loss with Vande Valde, (which really looks bad now) but if they can get a stage win that would be huge... still have lots of time left. 

but hey, I'm not a fair weather fan... I respect what the team stands for most of all..... and I love the gps and love the burrito!!! 

.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

118th / nearly 11 minutes down on the TT for Dave "time trialing champion" Zabriskie. I didn't expect him to go get into top 10, but heck maybe top 50 at least? A disgrace to the name.


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

Over in Catalunya, Dan Martin was second in todays stage, and is now second overall.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

DFL now in the team classification. All 5 remaining riders in the grupetto. 2 riders in the early break dropped on the FIRST climb of the day (didn't Tommy D use to be a climber). It's time to give back the Pro Tour license JV. Garmin is truly disgracing the Giro,... and this is coming from a fan.


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

Maybe they aren't using that super-duper-ultra grade orange juice for breakfast like everyone else.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

coop said:


> Garmin is truly disgracing the Giro,... and this is coming from a fan.


Perhaps. I don't think JV will be in a position next year to send in an overweight TD and a burned-out (whatever the ailment is) Zabriskie with just the hope that they'll win the TTT and not produce anything else. There are definitely some Italian continental teams who could have showed more enthusiasm than Garmin this year.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

Vaughters is a bad race director


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

dagger said:


> Vaughters is a bad race director


I actually think Matt White is the Giro race director. JV may not even be in Italy; he wasn't last year. But yeah, MW probably has a few things to learn as well. It was a mistake last year to give up the pink jersey the stage after winning the TTT, and then only by a few seconds. 

This year, I'm not so sure what's going on. Don't know if MW has any control over who gets picked or what shape or motivation that they are in.


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## SRV (Dec 26, 2006)

Looks like they've just laid down and quit. Even Wiggins, who was looking so strong, has fallen off the map and finished in the groupetto with his chums.

Please don't anyone again give us the ol' "they're just building for the Tour" malarkey.

Meanwhile Cervelo, who was nearly invisible for the first week or so, is on fire. I mention this because an earlier poster guessed that Garmin might be saving up for the final week. It doesn't look like it.


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