# Is there any "rule" regarding "knees in" when pedaling?



## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Watching riders in the Tour and now the U.S.Pro Championships in Colorado....many have their knees angled in noticeably when pedaling, e.g., Andy Schleck.

Is there any "cycling tip" or "rule" that's commonly known whereby you are supposed to keep your knees in toward the top tube? Or is that just a quirk that some riders have? Or are you supposed to just let your knees cycle comfortably per individual ? 


***


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

The official stance of my LBS is that proper fit on the bike involves riding with your knees as close as possible to the top tube. What I have noticed is that the more I weighed , the more difficult that became. Now that I have lost some weight the prospect is significantly easier. But yes, pro riders do ride this way.

Unfortunately, newbies very often ride with their legs very far away from the top tube. Legs wide open, and they further show others just how new they are by the large distance between their knees and the top tube.


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## Shinjukan (Aug 22, 2011)

And also riding with your knees tucked in helps in minimizing the wind drag you're creating, thus making you more efficient because of your aerodynamic profile.


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## J T (Aug 15, 2010)

Hooben said:


> The official stance of my LBS is that proper fit on the bike involves riding with your knees as close as possible to the top tube. What I have noticed is that the more I weighed , the more difficult that became. Now that I have lost some weight the prospect is significantly easier. But yes, pro riders do ride this way.
> 
> Unfortunately, newbies very often ride with their legs very far away from the top tube. Legs wide open, and they further show others just how new they are by the large distance between their knees and the top tube.


I feel as if I have more power with my knees in. 

Nothing bugs me more when I see someone riding down the street bow-legged. :lol:


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## Jetmugg (Sep 22, 2010)

Yes, there is a rule. Keep your knees in.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Bow-legged often means their saddles are too low as well. I see that all the time when out riding solo, none with the regular group rides I do. I think as you progress in cycling, you refine your fit and pedaling technique.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

You are also less likely to have problems with your knees, ankles and feet down the road if your form is correct earlier on. I started having shooting sensations in my arches because I favored pressing more on the outside of my very wide feet when out of the saddle. By focusing on keeping perfect up down alignment of knees and balls of my feet, this sensation is mitigated.


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## calle_betis (Jun 30, 2006)

IMO, it's less of a "rule" and more of a product of proper fit and form. Plus, you use the correct muscle groups and have a more efficient cycle stroke. When I first started out, My knees flared a bit. 

In my case, I blew my Achilles tendon (brutal- not recommended) and turned into a Buddha.  I picked up cycling a few years later to reactive what had become a sedentary lifestyle. As I rode and lost the gut, I tried to emulate experienced riders that blew by me. A few years later I also bought a trainer and then rollers to help improve my cycling stroke. Today, I have a pretty decent stroke. It'll take you some time, but if you focus on "knees in" and a more efficient stroke, after some work, you'll get there. Keep on, keepin' on.


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

I'm afraid these responses are woefully incorrect. There is absolutely no rule saying you need to pedal with knees in and in fact the typical knees-in style is more a function of bad fit than anything else. There is one caveat here: some people naturally have what is known as a valgus knee orientation - the classic knock-knees - and these riders will always manifest a narrow pedaling action, where the knee remains close to the top tube throughout the pedal rotation. Schleck is one of these, as is Garzelli most noticeably. Cancellara or Contador on the other hand have almost linear, straight up-and-down pedal actions where there is no narrowing of the knees.

What modern bike fit aims for is a reduction in medial knee excursion - the common collapsing of the knee towards the centre-line of the bike on the power stroke as a result of the collapsing of the longitudinal arch of the foot. The quantum of excursion depends on a number of factors like hip width, knee orientation, favoured stance width, "lunch muscle", height of foot arch, ankle orientation, amount of tibial varum, also the time spent in the saddle and the bodies own self-correction mechanisms like over-recruitment of hip stabilizers (glute mede) and knee stabilizers (VMO, VML).

What good pedal action involves is as straight a vertical tracking of the knee as the rider's physiology permits. It stands to reason that this action will put power directly down through the pedal. Contrast this with a pedal action where the knee starts out wide (for whatever reason) and then diverts inwards (as a result of an intentional narrowing of the knees) - typically the knee will deviate medially inward to a point where the tibia is angled outward towards the pedal below. This is splaying the power outwards on an inefficient vector relative to the pedal travel. Why do this? Why intentionally narrow the knees all the way throught the pedal stroke by over-recruiting stabilizers to track the knee on an un-relaxed plane? Rather the idea is to begin with a stance width that is comfortable and work to try and track the knee on as vertically linear a path as possible. This invariably involves longitudinal arch support and often also requires some form of varus wedge support either for the forefoot of for the foot as a whole. A suitably qualified fitter can do this.

If you are watching the races on the TV, why not also look to see how many of the riders are functionally asymmetrical when putting down power. Head-on views are a great help in this - notably in the time trials where you get good front on or rear on views.


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## calle_betis (Jun 30, 2006)

cyclequip said:


> I'm afraid these responses are woefully incorrect. There is absolutely no rule saying you need to pedal with knees in and in fact the typical knees-in style is more a function of bad fit than anything else. There is one caveat here: some people naturally have what is known as a valgus knee orientation - the classic knock-knees - and these riders will always manifest a narrow pedaling action, where the knee remains close to the top tube throughout the pedal rotation. Schleck is one of these, as is Garzelli most noticeably. Cancellara or Contador on the other hand have almost linear, straight up-and-down pedal actions where there is no narrowing of the knees.
> 
> What modern bike fit aims for is a reduction in medial knee excursion - the common collapsing of the knee towards the centre-line of the bike on the power stroke as a result of the collapsing of the longitudinal arch of the foot. The quantum of excursion depends on a number of factors like hip width, knee orientation, favoured stance width, "lunch muscle", height of foot arch, ankle orientation, amount of tibial varum, also the time spent in the saddle and the bodies own self-correction mechanisms like over-recruitment of hip stabilizers (glute mede) and knee stabilizers (VMO, VML).
> 
> ...


Thanks, Professor cyclequip. Well done! I learned something new today.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

What cyclequip said. My fit helped me correct bringing my knees in and am thankful for it. My stroke is much more vertical now, at least until I get tired.



cyclequip said:


> stuff.


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

I have a good fitter set me up on my bikes, I ALWAYS try to pay attention to my form when cycling, and...over the winter for the last several years, I've done a lot of group spinning classes. I always try to sit at the front and observe myself in the mirror. I focus on form, with specific attention to minimization of head/torso sway, and any other aspect of my riding that results in some eccentricity of motion. I stare at my knees in the mirror - a lot.

Putting a mirror in front of you on a trainer/rollers would always be helpful.

I'm lucky, in the fact that I'm naturally pretty well balanced, but everyone has natural left/right variations at a minimum.

My overall form is quite smooth, and if I've been riding consistently, I have absolutely no discomfort on the bike.


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## LC (Jan 28, 2004)

My theory is that it all comes from excess float of the pedal, which is why I like no pedal float at all so I don't have a choice of sloppy pedaling technique. Keeps my feet in line and therefore my knees in line.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

I'm not a fitter, physiologist, or physician, so I'm talking out of my arse - but it seems to me it is all about your fit and setup on the bike, as others have said. I think your knees (legs) are going to naturally find the path that gives you the most power given your setup. That's why a bad setup can physically hurt or even damage your joints. And a good set up can give you pain free power. You shouldn't un-naturally bring your knees in on the assuption that it is the "right" leg action. Find a fit that you trust, and let you knees find their own path. Just pedal naturally. If that means your knees come in or out or straight, and it doesn't hurt you on a long ride, let it be what it is. I do think that if you naturally walk with your toes slightly out (duck toed) and then set up your pedals and cleats with feet straight ahead, you're going to get that knees in thing. Likewise if you set up your peddals and cleats such that you have a slight pidgen toed orientaton. Set up your feet slightly "duck toed" and you're going to get that knees out thing.


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

cyclequip said:


> I'm afraid these responses are woefully incorrect. There is absolutely no rule saying you need to pedal with knees in and in fact the typical knees-in style is more a function of bad fit than anything else. There is one caveat here: some people naturally have what is known as a valgus knee orientation - the classic knock-knees - and these riders will always manifest a narrow pedaling action, where the knee remains close to the top tube throughout the pedal rotation. Schleck is one of these, as is Garzelli most noticeably. Cancellara or Contador on the other hand have almost linear, straight up-and-down pedal actions where there is no narrowing of the knees.
> 
> What modern bike fit aims for is a reduction in medial knee excursion - the common collapsing of the knee towards the centre-line of the bike on the power stroke as a result of the collapsing of the longitudinal arch of the foot. The quantum of excursion depends on a number of factors like hip width, knee orientation, favoured stance width, "lunch muscle", height of foot arch, ankle orientation, amount of tibial varum, also the time spent in the saddle and the bodies own self-correction mechanisms like over-recruitment of hip stabilizers (glute mede) and knee stabilizers (VMO, VML).
> 
> ...


FTW - simple biomechanics


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## jarbiker (Sep 29, 2009)

*it would seem to me*



cyclequip said:


> I'm afraid these responses are woefully incorrect. There is absolutely no rule saying you need to pedal with knees in and in fact the typical knees-in style is more a function of bad fit than anything else. There is one caveat here: some people naturally have what is known as a valgus knee orientation - the classic knock-knees - and these riders will always manifest a narrow pedaling action, where the knee remains close to the top tube throughout the pedal rotation. Schleck is one of these, as is Garzelli most noticeably. Cancellara or Contador on the other hand have almost linear, straight up-and-down pedal actions where there is no narrowing of the knees.
> 
> What modern bike fit aims for is a reduction in medial knee excursion - the common collapsing of the knee towards the centre-line of the bike on the power stroke as a result of the collapsing of the longitudinal arch of the foot. The quantum of excursion depends on a number of factors like hip width, knee orientation, favoured stance width, "lunch muscle", height of foot arch, ankle orientation, amount of tibial varum, also the time spent in the saddle and the bodies own self-correction mechanisms like over-recruitment of hip stabilizers (glute mede) and knee stabilizers (VMO, VML).
> 
> ...


that what you should strive for is a natural pedal stroke. By that I mean your feet should just be a straight extension from your leg without turning in or out and your knee should just be at a natural position,


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

i notice at times when out on rides i see some guys ride with their knees COMPLETELY pointed outwards and I cant figure out for the life of me if that is comfortable for them or if it will develop into some future pain. But i guess your body will tend to do what is best.


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

It would be convenient if we could just get a fit (usually saddle height/reach/cockpit) and off we go and let our knees find a nice, natural path suited to each individual fit or person. That would be simple biomechanics, LOL. But our limbs evolved to run or walk and the biomechanics required for that differ quite considerably from the biomechanics required to push a pedal down. In some respects our limbs, feet in particular, are woefully inadequate for the pedaling action and this translates into the knee instability I referred to earlier. While lots of time in the saddle and careful attention to development of stabilizer musculature can go quite some way to rectifying this, at some stage we all are at risk of repetitive stress injury or overuse damage. Fitters who have been dealing with this for a long time recognize this and so pay particular attention to leg tracking as a fundamental of proper fit. This has the added benefit of permitting significant improvements in pelvic stability and can be really beneficial in relieving lower back pain. But this invariably needs the assistance of biomechanical aids like footbeds and wedges to correct skeletal deficiencies and enabling the rider to focus maximum attention on developing the mobilizers required to push a pedal. Good fitters make a big difference here. Emphasis on the "good" bit.

Guys like Steve Hogg, Andy Pruitt and Paul Swift have done great things to make cycling more enjoyable for most of us. We should respect their work and make as much use of their research and development as we can. It'll just make us all better riders and old fools like me who fit for a living can carry on being creative and getting a kick out of making cyclists smile.


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## duz10s (Aug 5, 2011)

Cyclequip I agree with all you have said

My left leg knee generally rides closer to my top tube that my right, no doubt this is from the arch in my foot collapsing a little and in terms of power output I noticed when I jumped on a Watt Bike that my right leg which seems very correct is a about 4% more powerful that my left.

Would you suggest maybe some arch support or shim in my left to correct?


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

duz10s said:


> Cyclequip I agree with all you have said
> 
> My left leg knee generally rides closer to my top tube that my right, no doubt this is from the arch in my foot collapsing a little and in terms of power output I noticed when I jumped on a Watt Bike that my right leg which seems very correct is a about 4% more powerful that my left.
> 
> Would you suggest maybe some arch support or shim in my left to correct?


The asymmetry you describe can be from a more active arch on one foot or it can be from a leg-length discrepancy (either skeletal or functional). I'd suggest getting assessed to find the cause before jumping in with arch support.
However if getting assessed is not an option, get support on BOTH feet. Also don't get too hung up on power discrepancies between legs - this typically changes between legs over time and with effort as the body recruits different muscle fibres in response to load demand.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

cyclequip said:


> *snip* *snip*


All of this ^^



jsedlak said:


> My stroke is much more vertical now, at least until I get tired.


Quite. :shocked:


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

Totally agree with Cyclequip! :thumbsup:


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

FWIW, everyone needs to adapt for their own biomechanics... some of us will be more "gifted" than others in this respect. One of my ride partners has issues with both hips and has a distinctive riding style that can be identified literally from a quarter mile away, but it still gets him down the road!


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## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

as stated before, and with good backing, the neutral, vertical placement makes great sense. my thinking on the original thought of the thread is that even a vertical stance like that, will keep the knees rather close to the top tube, and look to the observer as if the knees are being held in purposefully, even if they are not being forced closer together than neutral. 

as to those saying, keep the knees in, my reading is that the intent is that they mean don't allow the knees to bow out, or accept a fit that creates this (low seat height), but rather keep them about vertical, which again, for those who aren't used to it, probably seems drastically inward.

imagine taking your father-in-law (if you can stomach spending time with him) to an amateur race and the shock he would have at seeing a properly fit rider with neutral knees. He'd think the riders were squeezing their legs together with considerable effort, because he, (or a great number of other 'ordinaries' he represents) rides his trail cruiser hybrid 15 miles a year with his seat 5 inches too low and with his knees literally a foot apart from each other, and thinks that's how a bike is ridden. Seriously, the guy looks like a frog riding a bike.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Can you tell that I ride with my knees in ... ?


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

Do you have the same wear marks on both sides of the saddle? If so, among other things it tells me you are likely on a saddle too narrow for your ischials and so slide forward onto the soft perineal tissues. Also your saddle is too high and perhaps too far back....... If you really pedaled knees in the tip of the saddle would be scuffed.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

The rule is "Do not attempt to learn anything by watching a bunch of stickmen ride their bikes up mountains for pay." What works for them on an individual basis has nothing to do with you. 

If you pay close attention and act accordingly you might find yourself riding twisted half off the bike like Francisco Mancebo.


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## bellbrass (Aug 28, 2011)

Very informative replies; I'm sure my patellar tendinitis is has something to do with my knees not consistently being "in."


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

terry b said:


> The rule is "Do not attempt to learn anything by watching a bunch of stickmen ride their bikes up mountains for pay." What works for them on an individual basis has nothing to do with you.
> 
> If you pay close attention and act accordingly you might find yourself riding twisted half off the bike like Francisco Mancebo.


Quite right. You would notice also Contador cocking his head to one side when he is under load. This is most likely a neural pathology - likely visual.

Patellar tendonitis is not normally a knees-in issue. Mostly it is excessive gear load or bad saddle position.


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## bellbrass (Aug 28, 2011)

cyclequip said:


> Patellar tendonitis is not normally a knees-in issue. Mostly it is excessive gear load or bad saddle position.


I am still learning not to try to push gears when I should shift...for some reason, I am still having occasional silly "don't be a wimp and shift down" thoughts when I approach a grade.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

When I started riding seriously, I had read somewhere or heard that one should pedal with knees close to the top tube. I did this for about six months or so. Then, when I went to college, I hooked up with the cycling team. There was one guy on the team that just had his sh!t together. That is, he was so smooth on the bike. I decided to copy his pedaling style, which was knees straight. I have ridden like that for more than 20 years now.

I personally am no longer interested in going as fast as possible. I hate the knees in look and that alone is reason for me not to do it. I also think that many great cyclists ride knees straight, not in. Lemond, Fignon, etc.


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## JCork (Aug 23, 2011)

Being a college student, I see lots of people commuting on bikes - and a lot of them ride with their knees way out. It just looks funny to me. And I may be wrong, but it seems like riding that way would wear on your knees the wrong way, causing problems down the road.


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## smankow (Jul 24, 2011)

I have to disagree that this is simply the result of a bad fit. You can't tell me that some of the top-line pro riders, such as Andy Schleck, have a bad fit.

Yes, you can adjust your leg position through the fitting process, but I doubt that it can be completely accomplished. If someone has a "habit" of riding bow-legged, the knees in might just be an over exaggerated example to break that habit and gain muscle memory.

That said, I am also not a fan of the tight knees-in style. I am one that is working to get the legs into a more effient riding position.


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## kmunny19 (Aug 13, 2008)

smankow said:


> I have to disagree that this is simply the result of a bad fit. You can't tell me that some of the top-line pro riders, such as Andy Schleck, have a bad fit.
> 
> Yes, you can adjust your leg position through the fitting process, but I doubt that it can be completely accomplished. If someone has a "habit" of riding bow-legged, the knees in might just be an over exaggerated example to break that habit and gain muscle memory.
> 
> That said, I am also not a fan of the tight knees-in style. I am one that is working to get the legs into a more effient riding position.


if this habit doesn't cause pain or similar problems related to not having an appropriate fit/lining up scenario, it may stand to reason that that rider is physiologically atypical from the general population. 

likewise, if someone can ride super fast for really long for 21 near-consecutive days, that rider may be considered atypical. 

So suggesting people should fit themselves to a bike like andy schleck or any of the other pros who've been discussed in this thread as having non-traditional placements on their bikes, isn't sensible for anyone who doesn't fit on a bike exactly like said pro. If andy schleck rode with the same reaches, angles, etc, relative to his body measurements, that I do, relative to mine, it would probably not work well for him.


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

smankow said:


> I have to disagree that this is simply the result of a bad fit. You can't tell me that some of the top-line pro riders, such as Andy Schleck, have a bad fit.
> 
> Yes, you can adjust your leg position through the fitting process, but I doubt that it can be completely accomplished. If someone has a "habit" of riding bow-legged, the knees in might just be an over exaggerated example to break that habit and gain muscle memory.
> 
> That said, I am also not a fan of the tight knees-in style. I am one that is working to get the legs into a more effient riding position.


No-one has suggested andy Schleck has a bad fit. Read my earlier post where I explain his particular narrow knee style comes from his valgus knee orientation. In fact I know he has been properly fitted when still at Saxo by Andy Pruitt and Scott Holz. You don't get better fitters than them. 
The point is that a good fitter can adjust symmetry based on the rider's physiology - precisely to achieve the best neutral fit that avoids the risk of overuse or repetitive-stress injury.

And you would be shocked to see how many top pro riders have massively deficient bike fits. They adapt stabilizers through huge hours in the saddle but those falling outside the parameters suffer ongoing injury - mainly knees BTW - and become cannon-fodder for team management who use them till they are finished knowing there are hundreds of hungry wannabes waiting in the sidelines. Believe me the good ones get good fits.


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## bmorgan4 (Jan 25, 2013)

cyclequip said:


> The asymmetry you describe can be from a more active arch on one foot or it can be from a leg-length discrepancy (either skeletal or functional). I'd suggest getting assessed to find the cause before jumping in with arch support.
> However if getting assessed is not an option, get support on BOTH feet. Also don't get too hung up on power discrepancies between legs - this typically changes between legs over time and with effort as the body recruits different muscle fibres in response to load demand.



Cyclequip,
I've enjoyed reading your posts. I have been having an issue with medial knee pain on my right knee, and I am a CAT2 cyclists that has been riding for about 4 years (28 years old). This is my first injury EVER and it creeped up about 3 weeks ago and has been driving me nuts. I wanted to run what I have done thus far by you if you would give me feedback I would much appreciate it.

Like I said, right medial knee pain. I have had professional fits, and I consider my position to be pretty good. Flexibility....well working on that. I noticed that my right knee does in fact collapse towards the top tube where as my left knee tracks perfectly in line with ankle/hip. I have also noticed that my right foot wants to go toe out just ever so slightly where as my left foot tracks straight (I use speedplays). I went to see a foot doc yesterday who is a cyclist and a very good physician, figuring wedging may be in action. He measured and looked at my feet and said I am not one of the 86% of the population that has valgus (pardon me if I am badgering terms here). Actually, he said I have very nice high arches etc etc. So no wedging is in order (we did try it and video taped to see what it would do anyways and no change). My right hip ROM is limited (pincer) so another theory was that at the top of my pedal stroke my leg comes out slightly to allow clearance for the hip, and then falls back in and overcompensates on the downstroke. OK..fair enough... We ended up raising my saddle height about 1 cm and that helped the knee tracking immensly, and also moved my foot a little closer to the BB because I have narrow hips and this helped get my foot under my knee. I was able to ride the trainer today for 1.5 hours with little or no pain after, so I think the changes we made have been helpful but I am still letting the cortisone shot i got in my knee a week ago do its job, especially seeing how tendon flare up is a slow healing process. Some questions I am still having...
1.) in terms of pedal float, is it best to allow my foot to go where it wants or lock it down? I personally feel better when I allow my foot to float, and after the saddle raise my foot doesn't want to go toe out nearly as much..
2.) You mentioned some muscle groups that could contribute to this.. I do a lot of weight training in the offseason, do you think it is possible that the weight training I have been doing is contributing to this? Maybe I am over building a specific muscle? Reason I think this is because it is odd for this injury to occur in winter when I ride less, although I was riding a pretty aggressive century when the injury creeped up on me. If you think this is possible, what muscle groups should I focus on building, or not building to avoid this knee collapsing?

Overall, the lateral motion in my right leg is pretty minimal even before the changes we made. This could very well be due to just high base mileage in cold weather, wearing pants that restrict knee cap movement etc. I hope this is the case, but of course always want to try and be proactive to avoid this injury in the season. That would kill me! I am also stretching a lot more now as I think tight hamstrings etc are never a good thing for the knees. I appreciate any insight you have to offer!


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## yassine (Mar 7, 2017)

Bow-legged, or genu varum, is when you have outward bowing of the legs, so that the knees are further apart than the ankles when standing. This is most common in children, but is also present in adults. The types of injuries that could occur from this are lateral collateral ligament (LCL) sprains and increased compression on the medial structures.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Erion929 said:


> Watching riders in the Tour and now the U.S.Pro Championships in Colorado....many have their knees angled in noticeably when pedaling, e.g., Andy Schleck.
> 
> Is there any "cycling tip" or "rule" that's commonly known whereby you are supposed to keep your knees in toward the top tube?


Yes, and for the same reasons you try to keep your elbows in and your head low. Don't want everything jutting out into the wind for no reason other than to slow you down. There are, of course, some notable exceptions, but the more someone rides, the more I find they'll knee in (save for some biomechanical issue).


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## NordieBoy (Oct 13, 2016)

I don't think I could ride a "modern" carbon fibre bike as the tubes are just too fat.
My knees brush/hit the top tube of my 2011 era alloy bikes regularly.


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