# Is KOPS really that important?



## kikoraa (Jul 19, 2012)

On my bike, the plumb line falls about a CM ahead of the crank arm when dropped over my knee. About even with the crank arm end when dropped from the bone below the kneecap. I read that it needs to intersect the pedal spindle when dropped from that bone. Will this hurt me in any way? The bike is a touring bike with drop bars. I would need a set-back Seatpost to have proper KOPS. Would also need to shorten my stem to about 70 for proper reach.


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## mariomal99 (Mar 4, 2012)

if you are too far back you will hurt same as too far forward


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

KOPS sholud be viewed as a guide, not a hard fast rule. It is one of several fitting systems, and each do not necessarily match the other.
No fitting system is 100% accurate. They get you close but you still need to ride and final adjust to what works for you.


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## kikoraa (Jul 19, 2012)

Thank you. I'm a mtber and not really a roadie. I use similar fitting examples to fit my mtb then tweak for comfort since in always shifting my body on the trails. I just assumed KOPS was relevant to road fit since youre in the same position for a long duration. I would like to be a tad further back but don't want to spend $50+ on a setback post. First I need to get a shorter stem since my reach is to far forward. And the saddle sucks so that's being replaced this weekend. Im not to fond of the geo of this tourig bike. I feel I should have gotten one size smaller. The lbs recommended this size and I even called the manufacturer and they recommended the same. That's what I get for not test riding


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## brady1 (Aug 18, 2011)

tlg said:


> KOPS sholud be viewed as a guide, not a hard fast rule. It is one of several fitting systems, and each do not necessarily match the other.
> No fitting system is 100% accurate. They get you close but you still need to ride and final adjust to what works for you.


Agree.

I had knee issues a while back and after settling into a pain-free position, I found that I am a little farther back than KOPS. Dropping a plumb bob from my knee in the recommended position has it hitting about mid-foot or just slightly in front of that. 
With my knee over the spindle, I would get knee pain in the patellar tendon if I ever slid forward even the tiniest amount. 
Now, in my most forward, aggressive, aero, breaking away/catching up position my knee probably is over the spindle, but never any farther forward.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Not a guide*



tlg said:


> KOPS sholud be viewed as a guide, not a hard fast rule. It is one of several fitting systems, and each do not necessarily match the other.
> No fitting system is 100% accurate. They get you close but you still need to ride and final adjust to what works for you.


KOPS is not even a guide. It is a starting point. The typical range is KOPS +1 to -3 cm. It's a mix of your personal preference and your physiology.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

kikoraa said:


> On my bike, the plumb line falls about a CM ahead of the crank arm when dropped over my knee. About even with the crank arm end when dropped from the bone below the kneecap. I read that it needs to intersect the pedal spindle when dropped from that bone. Will this hurt me in any way? The bike is a touring bike with drop bars.* I would need a set-back Seatpost to have proper KOPS. Would also need to shorten my stem to about 70 for proper reach.*


If this were my bike, I'd be more concerned with riding a bike sized too large than KOPS +/-. 

Seems as though whoever fit you compensated for excessive reach by going with a no setback post, positioning you too far forward rather than getting saddle adjustments set, _then_ dealing with reach/ drop. If I'm correct, your f/r weight distribution is off and your set up is a recipe for fit issues and an ill handling bike.

EDIT: Somehow missed your last post (above), OP. So... never mind...


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Kerry Irons said:


> KOPS is not even a guide. It is a starting point. The typical range is KOPS +1 to -3 cm. It's a mix of your personal preference and your physiology.


Uh yea. You're saying the same thing I did.

guide
to lead the way 
a book, pamphlet, etc., giving information, instructions, or advice


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## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

I did KOPS, and it was pretty close... then went to Competitive Cyclist and did their fitting, moving the seat 7.0mm behind the BB, and it feels a lot more natural, less tiring, and it's easier to pedal with power I feel Im using more length of the quad, and not just the lower portion. Give that a try.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

The person that did my fitting at the LBS was amazed how close I was to fitting the bike as-is. He then had my peddle on the bike for awhile (about 2 minutes). Then he whipped out the plumb bob and started a KOPS fitting, which resulted in moving the seat back a few millimeters. From there I peddled for another minute or so, another seat adjustment and I was on my way. So far I am very happy with the fit and feel of the bike, so I would say the KOPS approach, when done correctly, is a good way to get fitted for a bike.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Wetworks said:


> The person that did my fitting at the LBS was amazed how close I was to fitting the bike as-is.


That's what you call a good fit "out of the box". It shows two things - 1) that the bikes overall geo suites you and 2) you're sized correctly. Can't get much better than that! :thumbsup:


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> That's what you call a good fit "out of the box". It shows two things - 1) that the bikes overall geo suites you and 2) you're sized correctly. Can't get much better than that! :thumbsup:


Yup, I was pretty happy about that.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Wetworks said:


> The person that did my fitting at the LBS was amazed how close I was to fitting the bike as-is. He then had my peddle on the bike for awhile (about 2 minutes). Then he whipped out the plumb bob and started a KOPS fitting, which resulted in moving the seat back a few millimeters. From there I peddled for another minute or so, another seat adjustment and I was on my way. So far I am very happy with the fit and feel of the bike, so I would say the KOPS approach, when done correctly, is a good way to get fitted for a bike.


It sounds like the fitter adjusted your saddle again after lining it up for KOPS. Nothing wrong with that - as others have said, KOPS is a perfectly good starting point. And you have to start from somewhere to arrive at a fitting bicycle.

Some people treat KOPS as an absolute rule. IMO, that's not a good way to set up a bike.


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't know. My knee position in relation the pedal spindle is always changing while I'm riding. I don't always ride in the exact same spot in the saddle, and my ankles aren't always locked in exact same spot either; moving both of these things will change your knees' position over the pedals. Also, riding aggressively vs leisurely will change it also. I just went with a saddle position that makes me feel balanced and comfortable. I'm constantly paying attention to my body, and tweaking my fit so that I feel more comfortable and can extract more power out of my legs.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> It sounds like the fitter adjusted your saddle again after lining it up for KOPS. Nothing wrong with that - as others have said, KOPS is a perfectly good starting point. And you have to start from somewhere to arrive at a fitting bicycle.
> 
> Some people treat KOPS as an absolute rule. IMO, that's not a good way to set up a bike.


I may look to tweak things a bit more, maybe slide the saddle a bit more forward. As I begin to go on longer rides, I am getting a better sense of what I am comfortable with and what is bothering me. Right now, the saddle seems like a problem, but I am not sure if that is the fault of the saddle itself (Bad Boy, not well-regarded), or the position. Trial and error will tell, I reckon.



SFTifoso said:


> I don't know. *My knee position in relation the pedal spindle is always changing while I'm riding. I don't always ride in the exact same spot in the saddle, and my ankles aren't always locked in exact same spot either;* moving both of these things will change your knees' position over the pedals. Also, riding aggressively vs leisurely will change it also. I just went with a saddle position that makes me feel balanced and comfortable. I'm constantly paying attention to my body, and tweaking my fit so that I feel more comfortable and can extract more power out of my legs.


Me too, and that's even more magnified by the fact that I am not riding clipless. I'd imagine that your cadence and position are greatly improved by that, so I take the whole thing with a grain of salt.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Stock saddles are a funny thing. Sometimes they're just a basic racing saddle with almost no padding or branding. I often do just fine with those.

If it's the stock saddle on a hybrid, it's also likely to be too soft. Too soft or the wrong shape are things that make saddles not work for me. But you really just have to ride with the saddle for a while and see what you think. Don't let people's internet opinions of saddles sway you too much - they're very individual, and the more expensive saddles don't necessarily work for more people or work better than a mid-priced saddle. I guess I have a low opinion of cheap saddles. Not sure where that would fall lately. Probably sub-$60, although my favorite cost me $35 back in 2000. Think it was used or a return or something...

I haven't found clipless vs. flat pedals to effect my position, although I have trouble maintaining as high a cadence on flats. I haven't found clipless vs. toe clips to effect either my position or my cadence. People want some of the things they spend money on on their bikes to make much bigger differences than they do. I'm still a fan of clipless pedals. I like to wear reasonably good cycling shoes for rides longer than a half hour or so, I like to be secured to the pedal, and I find clipless to be an easier system for me to use than toe clips. Especially since I don't even know where I'd find the cleat to set up a clipped system as securely as a clipless system in this day and age! I realize the terminology is a little confusing. Sorry about that, it's a result of historical changes in pedal design.

I don't think clipless pedals are worth the funny shoes if it's my commuter. So I've stuck with toe clips on that bike. I'd say if your use for this bike is fitness riding, go straight from flats to clipless. No need to get comfortable with toe clips if you aren't already. If your use is commuting, give some thought to the issue of having special shoes for cycling. I've also had periods when I commuted on one of my racing bikes and left some shoes at the office. Works well if I'm working somewhere I feel comfortable leaving shoes, and the commute is long enough to make me miss being on a nicer bike.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

My GF got a new bike this weekend. On her previous bike we used KOPS as a starting point and tweaked from there. Her knee did wind up being pretty much over the spindle. She's always had some knee pain/discomfort during exercise, even years before cycling. So she gets some while riding. But she insisted it was comfortable and could do relatively long rides. She just started riding this year and did 78mi last week. She said her knee hurt a little but it went away shortly afterwards.

So with the new bike, we aimed to set it up as close as possible to the old bike. But because of the seat post design (similar to the OP) we couldn't get the knee position quite over the spindle. Her knee was slightly forward of it. We took it out for a 30mi test ride. She said her knee never felt that good before while riding. No pain at all. 

So yea.... KOPS really isn't all that important.


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