# BOOK COMMENT - The Secret Race by Tyler Hamilton



## stevepeter83 (Apr 8, 2012)

Hi guys,

I just grabbed a copy of The Secret Race book by Tyler Hamilton. I have not read it fully. I'm up to chapter 6. Although, to Chapter 6, it's enough for me to get the understanding of what has really happened in the pro peleton. I have to say that I'm so surprised and saddened of what has and is currently happening (who knows..people may still dope?).

I mean....the fact that they do that just to get the win and how if you don't dope, you just can't cope with the speed of the peloton? Tyler spoke so clearly how he trained hard and yet couldn't even stay at the back of the peleton comfortably. It's just crazy.

There are always 2 sides of a story but if his side of the story was truly true, I am so disheartened.



Steve


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## wilde737 (Aug 9, 2012)

I've read it as well, in fact I'm reading it for the second time. I too was very surprised, and saddened by the book. It's pretty eye opening. I always wanted to beleive LA, even though deep down I knew something was "off." No longer do I believe him whatsoever! Oh well


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## stevepeter83 (Apr 8, 2012)

Yeah. I'm not throwing stones at LA because even Tyler - who has come from a family which honesty is their main core value - had to dope just to even stay in the pack 

You are totally right...it's pretty eye-opening. Oh man...I'm still shaking my head...I almost cried when I read the first few chapters....how Tyler has been handed the "red pill" then the EPO ...arghhhh I can't believe it....and what's worse, all the big names have done the same, too.

It's not a fight of leg strength, it's a fight of who has the best tactics of doping without getting caught....for the riders it's the fight of the arms ...... who will surrender the arms will have the chance of achieving something in Tour.


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

I read a long line of cycling/doping books before The Secret Race so it was a little less of an eyeopener and saddening to me. It was more of a first hand account of the going ons that the other books just outlined or speculated on. 

The truly disheartening thing to me is how it kills other sports for me. In The Secret Race Tyler will talk about operation puerto and the clients Doctor Fuentes worked with(there was a lot) not all of them were cyclists. I had a hard time watching the Olympics this year (not as a result of this book) and believing in clean fields, mostly in track & field and swimming. If cycling has the strictest controls and riders are getting around them what goes on in other sports? The doubt killed it for me. 

Other good reads:

Bad Blood
Breaking the Chain
Rough Ride
From Lance to Landis
Dog in a Hat


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

stevepeter83 said:


> Yeah. I'm not throwing stones at LA because even Tyler - who has come from a family which honesty is their main core value - had to dope just to even stay in the pack
> 
> You are totally right...it's pretty eye-opening. Oh man...I'm still shaking my head...I almost cried when I read the first few chapters....how Tyler has been handed the "red pill" then the EPO ...arghhhh I can't believe it....and what's worse, all the big names have done the same, too.
> 
> It's not a fight of leg strength, it's a fight of who has the best tactics of doping without getting caught....for the riders it's the fight of the arms ...... who will surrender the arms will have the chance of achieving something in Tour.


I see it no differently then a pro body builder. The doping era that Lance competed in makes this whole thing a joke. Nobody has ever won the Mr. Universe or Olympia without jacking themselves up. The riding back in the 90's early 2000's was much more aggressive then it is now, these guys were attack until you fall over dead, performance drugs fueled that effort. I view this as entertainment and I must admit a doping cyclist is much more fun to watch. How many times have we seen a rider take a transfusion the night before, win the stage the next day by stomping everyone and leaving them in another zip code. What we're left with in todays riders is a clear example of human fragility, guarding efforts at all time, not very exciting if you ask me. 

As for Lance, his career was over anyway, but I must say watching him go down as fast as he went up is very exciting. It's a thrill to read the news everyday and see what they'll do next to dismantle the Armstrong ego piece by piece.


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## BlackIce619 (Sep 14, 2012)

heathb said:


> How many times have we seen a rider take a transfusion the night before, win the stage the next day by stomping everyone and leaving them in another zip code.


I think this is the key part that kills it for me. Who wants to see someone just take off ??? I rather watch a good race with a CRAZY finish. 

If everyone is clean, shouldn't all races be "CRAZY" finishes? I am sure every single one of them train like crazy. Their conditioning shouldnt be that far off. 

I just picked up the book from LA (not about the bike), and finished it quickly. With everything going on, I will pick up The Secret Race. I am sure it will open my eyes more to what is truly going on. IT SUCKS!!!


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

I have not read the book, and am going by the OP. If Tyler has taken the position that no one can hang on the back of the peleton without doping then how can anyone be declared a winner? By this logic the 2nd, 3rd etc also doped whether they passed all the tests or not. I don't have a good solution. Either just wipe out the results for the entire era, or distinguish it the way baseball has done.

The same logic means that all the races were tainted, or that Tyler is exagerating.

I'm not trying to defend Armstrong, but this is something to think about. In my opinion cycling needs to address the entire situation, not just selected cylists.


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## stevepeter83 (Apr 8, 2012)

Herbie,

I was thinking of the same, too. If everyone doped then why would you call anyone a cheater? Wasn't everyone on the same playing field?

Based on the book, medically you're not the same. Everyone responds differently to the dope. There is this term called "hermatocrits" which is like the number of red blood cells in your body. Basically this is like your "salary". The more you have, the stronger and more chances you have to win the race.

The limit set by UCI is 50. If you pass that they will accuse you of doping. Now, naturally everyone is different. Tyler for example was 42.

When he doped, he can get close to 50 meaning 16% increase in performance. While one of his teammates (whom I can't remember on top of my heart) was 48 naturally. So he only get 4% increase.

Another thing is the side effect of the dope. Some riders get stronger some of them get weaker. You have to read the book to understand. I'm just paraphrasing here.

But what the book was trying to say was, it's still not a fair race although everyone dopes due to the reasons I just mentioned.

Like I said, I wouldn't stone Lance for what he's done. He's just one of the unlucky bastards who get caught. But it's just so saddening to me that this happens in this sport which I love so dearly.

I have been suspecting myself that doping must have been going around for a long time. Think about it, recovering from cancer and winning TdF for 7 times in a row. That sounds too impossible. Winning two in a row is already quiet impossible these days (see Evans and even for next year - depending on the course - I doubt Wiggins will get it) let alone 7 times. We're talking about the most grueling race on earth.

If he won 7 times over the course of 20 years that may still sound logical. 

And yes...other sports have similar scandals, too. I have to say though cycling is probably the most difficult of all because swimming for example, you don't have to swim for let's say 200km. Or even running, you don't have to run for 200km. But with cycling you can race 160-200km for 3 weeks.....sigh...you just have to do what you gotta do, don't you?


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

To me one of the most surprising things in the book was how the doping wasn't even equal on Lance's own teams, and how much Lance created a fantasy world for himself where someone else was always doing more, when in fact it was Lance that was always driving the arms race forward.

The other surprise was that Lance ratted out his competition to the authorities with regularity, and likely even arranged for Ullrich and Hamilton's blood bag couriers to be intercepted by the cops on the same day during the Tour. The gale force hypocrisy of a full time rat enforcing the omerta on everyone else is especially striking.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

terzo rene said:


> The other surprise was that Lance ratted out his competition to the authorities with regularity, and likely even arranged for Ullrich and Hamilton's blood bag couriers to be intercepted by the cops on the same day during the Tour. The gale force hypocrisy of a full time rat enforcing the omerta on everyone else is especially striking.


Armstrong was the ****** Bulger of the cycling world.

Jack Nicholson's character in Scorcese's _The Departed_ is loosely based on Bulger, who was an FBI informant at the same time he was the most feared boss in the Boston's Irish mafia. He would eliminate rivals by either killing them or turning them into the FBI, whichever was most convenient for him at the time.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Thought:
Armstong - rightly - is getting crucified. 
Why is Hamilton getting to profit for his doping crimes? The idea that he is on some kind of moral high ground is ridiculous.
The hypocrisy of all these drug cheats - Miller is another one - is absolutely sickening! Absolutely stomach churning


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## PatheticHack (Oct 24, 2010)

albert owen said:


> Thought:
> Armstong - rightly - is getting crucified.
> Why is Hamilton getting to profit for his doping crimes? The idea that he is on some kind of moral high ground is ridiculous.
> The hypocrisy of all these drug cheats - Miller is another one - is absolutely sickening! Absolutely stomach churning


Hamilton had access. He was a part of that world and apparently he has experiences that people would like to hear. LA is worth an estimated $125 mil so apparently he was able to profit from his misdeeds. 

Anyone that writes a memoir is going to be self-serving to some degree--painting themselves in a more flattering light. But I felt that Hamilton was pretty hard on himself in the book. For the most part, I tend to believe what he says and have no problem if he happens to profit from telling the "truth".


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## stevepeter83 (Apr 8, 2012)

albert owen said:


> Thought:
> Armstong - rightly - is getting crucified.
> Why is Hamilton getting to profit for his doping crimes? The idea that he is on some kind of moral high ground is ridiculous.
> The hypocrisy of all these drug cheats - Miller is another one - is absolutely sickening! Absolutely stomach churning


I guess for Hamilton personally telling the truth is above anything else, definitely above the money that he will make out of the book. I know the book kinda comes at the right place and at the right time.

I can tell from his story how difficult it was for him to keep the secret. It has cost him his marriage, has brought him into depression, etc. I know what it's like when you have something big in your chest and you hold it for too long. It will kill you eventually. I've been in his shoes (not the doping but holding something in my chest for a long time).


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## dombey19 (Oct 2, 2008)

I put off reading this book because I thought Hamilton was a bit of a jerk, and I didn't want to contribute to his profiting from doping. I just read it, and frankly I am very impressed by his honesty. Basically it confirms all of the USADA report from a personal viewpoint. He explains how the drugs worked, how he obtained them, and how he avoided positive tests. I'm sure other sports have similar abuses if we were to dig deep enough, but I found this to be a real eyeopener about the pro peloton. If you have not read it, and simply dismissed it as self-serving, I think you will change your mind about Hamilton, and professional cycling when you actually do read it.


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## brady1 (Aug 18, 2011)

dombey19 said:


> I put off reading this book because I thought Hamilton was a bit of a jerk, and I didn't want to contribute to his profiting from doping. I just read it, and frankly I am very impressed by his honesty. Basically it confirms all of the USADA report from a personal viewpoint. He explains how the drugs worked, how he obtained them, and how he avoided positive tests. I'm sure other sports have similar abuses if we were to dig deep enough, but I found this to be a real eyeopener about the pro peloton. If you have not read it, and simply dismissed it as self-serving, I think you will change your mind about Hamilton, and professional cycling when you actually do read it.


I certainly changed my mind about him.

Back when he was racing, he was one of my favorite riders. Just the scrappiest competitor out there; always willing to suffer. Not to mention all the stories about his Boy Scout mentality.

Then the excuses for the positive test came and that was pretty much it.

I've read his book now and really do feel for what he went through. I've come back around to liking him again even though he certainly doesn't come off as an angel in his book. I have no reason not to believe anything in his book. (Except maybe that part about Lance beating up the motorist. Really?! WTF?!) It probably did happen though. It certainly wouldn't surprise me. Oops...sorry for the spoiler.

Anyway, between all the doping/Lance drama plus the depression, he's clearly been through hell and back. Just look at recent photos of him. That really tells a lot. You can really see the stress in his face. Several years ago I would have dismissed the depression aspect of it as "Oh, just HTFU." but my wife has struggled with it for the majority of her life so I understand, to a degree, what he deals with. It's certainly no picnic.

I'm sure writing the book was very cathartic for him. At least I hope so. Self-serving or not, I have no issues about supporting Tyler's project. It's definitely a book that needed to be written.


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## hipo_p51 (Jul 6, 2012)

Just because it was written in a book, doesnt mean its true. This is not me trying to defend LA or anyone else, but TH is a liar and was caught doping. What makes you think this book is full of 100% truths? He wrote, with help, this book to make money IMO.PERIOD.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

hipo_p51 said:


> Just because it was written in a book, doesnt mean its true. This is not me trying to defend LA or anyone else, but TH is a liar and was caught doping. What makes you think this book is full of 100% truths? He wrote, with help, this book to make money IMO.PERIOD.


Hamilton testified under oath to a grand jury about everything. It wouldn't be too profitable to put himself in jeopardy of perjury. 

His story also fits together with all of the other affidavits in the reasoned decision, many of which were supplied by people who also testified before the same grand jury. 

If you just don't want to know you don't have to read it. Nobody is forcing you.


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## irish (Apr 8, 2004)

> ps. help me get rid of that red square

Looks like that red square belongs for a reason. 

You do realize that Coyle fact-checked a vast majority of the book with other riders?

You're right, TH lied, doped, and cheated. At what point, is he allowed to move forward with his life?


edit: changed "want" to "what"


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## tnvol123 (Sep 11, 2012)

Good point. I agree. 



irish said:


> > ps. help me get rid of that red square
> 
> Looks like that red square belongs for a reason.
> 
> ...


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

You nailed it right here and that is the reason why PEDs continue throughout all elite pro level sports. The individual athletes, ya they have their own reasons, they want to win. But without the private sanction of all the league commissioners, presidents, etc. PEDs would not be as prevalent as they are. They all turn a blinds eye because they know, they know what the public really wants is to see feats of super-human peformance--freaks. This is what puts on the best show...what the public craves to see...anything else is just meh. Ironically the public can't handle the truth. And ultimately it's the freak shows that bring in the most money. If you have a president that really cares about stopping PEDs, it's not that hard to do. But that would be counter productive to maximizing profits. McQuaid is the guilty one here. In the street drug war you've, seen what kind of results busting the junkies has had. Another one just replaces him. If you want to even put a dent in it you gotta go for the big guys. Hamilton, LA, etc. all these guys are just the junkies.




heathb said:


> I see it no differently then a pro body builder. The doping era that Lance competed in makes this whole thing a joke. Nobody has ever won the Mr. Universe or Olympia without jacking themselves up. The riding back in the 90's early 2000's was much more aggressive then it is now, these guys were attack until you fall over dead, performance drugs fueled that effort. I view this as entertainment and I must admit a doping cyclist is much more fun to watch. How many times have we seen a rider take a transfusion the night before, win the stage the next day by stomping everyone and leaving them in another zip code. What we're left with in todays riders is a clear example of human fragility, guarding efforts at all time, not very exciting if you ask me.
> 
> As for Lance, his career was over anyway, but I must say watching him go down as fast as he went up is very exciting. It's a thrill to read the news everyday and see what they'll do next to dismantle the Armstrong ego piece by piece.


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Ah, because that's the way he Federal government works. They threaten you with prison time if you don't drop a dime on your co-conspiritors and offer you leniency. Watching Hamiltion's interview I thought all the blather about how he needed to get this all off his chest...feels so much better now...blah, blah, blah, was more than disingenuous. In the same interview he comes right out and admits that he was forced to talk or face prison. Does anyone really believe for one second he would have come clean if not for the Feds forcing his hand? His book his way making lemonade from lemons that's all. It never would have been written if not for the feds.




albert owen said:


> Thought:
> Armstong - rightly - is getting crucified.
> Why is Hamilton getting to profit for his doping crimes? The idea that he is on some kind of moral high ground is ridiculous.
> The hypocrisy of all these drug cheats - Miller is another one - is absolutely sickening! Absolutely stomach churning


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## hipo_p51 (Jul 6, 2012)

I guess there is no freedom of speech here.
A lot of these recent events were not in front of grand juryies.
I just do not believe TH. Even if this is him trying to move forward with his life. The guy has lied then changed his mind. So how do you know what is true and false, grand jury or not.
Even with a third party doing the checks and balances, who side are they really on.
The one plus to LA, he keeps the denial going.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

What about all the people who haven't written a book and tell the same story as Hamilton? Are they all lying too?


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

I've been watching a lot of these youtube videos with various interviews, and the one common theme that I keep hearing over and over is that the UCI is corrupt.




Fireform said:


> What about all the people who haven't written a book and tell the same story as Hamilton? Are they all lying too?


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## hipo_p51 (Jul 6, 2012)

Fireform said:


> What about all the people who haven't written a book and tell the same story as Hamilton? Are they all lying too?


I am not talking about the others, I am talking about low life TH. He is one IMO that started all this. He had no future whatsoever. He and another low life rambled on about LA for years and he finally decided to tell "his story". And remember all this is coming from a liar and a doper that was caught and all the time saying he was innocent. He tell the accounts to to all these legal people. Yes a lot of guy came forward and admitted their past use of dope. But I bet you these guy and 100's more have done the same thing, is it right? Well IMO it was the culture and thats that. I believe it should have been handled a better way. How, I cant say for certain. But this lair's testimony more or less started the whole sh!t storm. Is it all true, only TH knows.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

albert owen said:


> Thought:
> Armstong - rightly - is getting crucified.
> Why is Hamilton getting to profit for his doping crimes? The idea that he is on some kind of moral high ground is ridiculous.
> The hypocrisy of all these drug cheats - Miller is another one - is absolutely sickening! Absolutely stomach churning


There's no room left on the moral high ground for Tyler after your post. "Stomach churning"? Please. He's not profiting off of his doping crimes, he's publishing his experiences and will profit if enough people are willing to pay to read them. I was one but I take it you aren't.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

hipo_p51 said:


> I am not talking about the others, I am talking about low life TH. He is one IMO that started all this. He had no future whatsoever. He and another low life rambled on about LA for years and he finally decided to tell "his story". And remember all this is coming from a liar and a doper that was caught and all the time saying he was innocent. He tell the accounts to to all these legal people. Yes a lot of guy came forward and admitted their past use of dope. But I bet you these guy and 100's more have done the same thing, is it right? Well IMO it was the culture and thats that. I believe it should have been handled a better way. How, I cant say for certain. But this lair's testimony more or less started the whole sh!t storm. Is it all true, only TH knows.


A guy who lied in the past telling the truth about a guy who is still lying. Boo hoo. Cry me a river.


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## brentley (Jul 20, 2008)

hipo_p51 said:


> I am not talking about the others, I am talking about low life TH. He is one IMO that started all this. He had no future whatsoever. He and another low life rambled on about LA for years and he finally decided to tell "his story". And remember all this is coming from a liar and a doper that was caught and all the time saying he was innocent. He tell the accounts to to all these legal people. Yes a lot of guy came forward and admitted their past use of dope. But I bet you these guy and 100's more have done the same thing, is it right? Well IMO it was the culture and thats that. I believe it should have been handled a better way. How, I cant say for certain. But this lair's testimony more or less started the whole sh!t storm. Is it all true, only TH knows.


Huh?
There were whispers of LA doping before tyler and floyd started talking about it. 

LA was investigated by the justice department who declined to prosecute under mysterious circumstances. 

The USADA took the case file, got the same witnesses to certify affidavits and then published their reasoned decision containing these affidavits. They broke the omerta that had been protecting LA for years. 

If you want to lose the red square you might want to read the USADA stuff.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

This whole thread reminds me of an old line I read way back in my law school days. I wish I could remember who said it. It goes, "our system of justice rests on the naive assumption that out of the battle of lies, somehow the truth will emerge". :lol:

Except for the fact that one liar is backed up by 24 other witnesses, in addition to the other proven liar.


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## hipo_p51 (Jul 6, 2012)

brentley said:


> Huh?
> There were whispers of LA doping before tyler and floyd started talking about it.
> 
> LA was investigated by the justice department who declined to prosecute under mysterious circumstances.
> ...


So I have to believe all that usada stuff is true. lots of people call this a witch hunt. i believe that. a lot of the usada info was collected from caught dopers and liars. so does that make the usada 100% true info. not IMO.


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## brentley (Jul 20, 2008)

hipo_p51 said:


> So I have to believe all that usada stuff is true. lots of people call this a witch hunt. i believe that. a lot of the usada info was collected from caught dopers and liars. so does that make the usada 100% true info. not IMO.


Yes lots of folks call this a witch hunt and for a long time I was one of them. I bought into the whole never caught doping line. 

But first I read Tyler's book (after hearing him on the radio) and read it. When he was on the radio the host was asking him specifically if this was a witch hunt and he said no.

Then I read the USADA report (but not all of the individual statements) and it went far beyond the book and opened up new routes. 

So even if you discount 50% of all of the allegations in the report as lies you still have a pretty good case. While it is possible that the witnesses got together and properly synced their stories, but it is pretty unlikely given the length of time the statements cover. 

Sadly after reading the book and report I am convinced that the entire TDF run was based on being the strongest doper and biggest a-hole (although the time that Lance had to go cross country after Beloki crashed on the road into Gap was pretty awesome even on PED) as well as ruining the lives of those who would stand up to him.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

A million bucks (supported by a paper trail of checks) to Ferrari for "training advice"?

People who want smoking guns need look no further.


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## stevepeter83 (Apr 8, 2012)

I used to think that the report is only a witch hunt but after I look at the average speed, how it has decreased so much now compared to what it used to be (from 45kmh to 35kmh in the montains) , I totally believe that back then everyone doped. And this what surprised me. I know it's the most grueling race on earth but why doped just to get the win. I wonder who started all these?

In regards to LA, I think he should just confess but he's got too much to lose......man...I don't want to imagine what it's like to pay the millions of prize money back while you may not have the money anymore? I know my dad's friend who used to be a millionaire but went bankrupt because of gambling, now he didn't want to meet anyone because of shame. People used to know him as a rich man now he is only a one poor guy living a small house on a mediocre neighbourhood.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

hipo_p51 said:


> So I have to believe all that usada stuff is true. lots of people call this a witch hunt. i believe that. a lot of the usada info was collected from caught dopers and liars. so does that make the usada 100% true info. not IMO.


Let me guess, you're Spanish right?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

mpre53 said:


> A million bucks (supported by a paper trail of checks) to Ferrari for "training advice"?
> 
> People who want smoking guns need look no further.


You forgot about bike fit. That alone was $250,000


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## nenad (May 5, 2004)

What I find interesting in the book is how LA comes off as a person. I think majority of team leaders are unlike him. After helping him win the Tour for 2 times in a row, what do Andreou and Livingston get ? They get fired. They get replaced by Spanish armada (Rubiera, Heras, Pena). And these are his friends, guys who rode with him for majority of his career. His compatriots, too. In particular, Hamilton's view of why Andreou quit: it's not that he couldn't find another team, it's that he was heart broken...and most of all, he believed what Lance told him (that he could not arrange to keep him on the team when in fact he is the one who kicked him out).

The guy is a thug and a bully. Who knew?!


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

stevepeter83 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I just grabbed a copy of The Secret Race book by Tyler Hamilton. I have not read it fully. I'm up to chapter 6. Although, to Chapter 6, it's enough for me to get the understanding of what has really happened in the pro peleton. I have to say that I'm so surprised and saddened of what has and is currently happening (who knows..people may still dope?).
> 
> ...


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Everything that came out in the USADA case reinforces Tyler's story.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

hipo_p51 said:


> Just because it was written in a book, doesnt mean its true. This is not me trying to defend LA or anyone else, but TH is a liar and was caught doping. What makes you think this book is full of 100% truths? He wrote, with help, this book to make money IMO.PERIOD.


Did you read this book? I thought the same things as you prior to reading. 

The most telling parts of this book are the footnotes. It appears that many critical assertions of this book have been thoroughly fact checked and verified by 2nd or 3rd sources.


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

*human nature*

So according to TH pretty much everybody doped. In itself, this boils down to the "spread the blame" tactic. It brings into light a new aspect of mediocrity : "if everybody else is doing it then so must I". According to this logic, the race winners are the ones that take cheating to a higher level. And why should this not apply to swimming, tennis, track and field, baseball, basketball, hockey, football and the list goes on.
My take is that people watch pro sports for the entertainment value. I find it extremely sad that some people, even after puberty, have the need to "identify themselves" with someone else. 
Wake up, good folks ! The Tour de France is not run by a peloton of mother Theresas in disguise. Every cyclist there is taking part to the race because of a long chain of decisions that may or may not involve doping. I don't know for sure ; I wasn't there to see it. And just because someone says it's true doesn't necessarily mean it is. 
End of rant. 
I've got the laundry waiting and grocery shopping doesn't take care of itself.
Life goes on. I enjoy going for a bicycle ride as much now as ten years ago, and I hope you do too.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Don't comment on a book that you have not read. Just a thought.


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> Don't comment on a book that you have not read. Just a thought.


a) It's a forum. You may tell tell me what to do or not to do, yet I equally don't care.

b) BTW you're wrong about me not reading the book.

c) If it's "just a thought", why not keep it to yourself ?


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## stevepeter83 (Apr 8, 2012)

Btw where's the news at at the moment? I have not heard about it mentioned in the news for some time now. I tried to go to cyclingnews.com and it seems that this issue has calmed itself down? 

I know that some sponsors have pulled out but other than that the last status of LA (from his FB page) was "I'm in Hawaii and live well". Smart guy I reckon...he just keeps being silent and he must have known from experience that soon or later people would move on and forget about the issue?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

superg said:


> a) It's a forum. You may tell tell me what to do or not to do, yet I equally don't care.
> 
> b) BTW you're wrong about me not reading the book.
> 
> c) If it's "just a thought", why not keep it to yourself ?


Um...thoughts are typically shared. Also, my comment was not even remotely directed towards you. Sorry for the misunderstanding


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## wabasso (May 18, 2012)

hipo_p51 said:


> So I have to believe all that usada stuff is true. lots of people call this a witch hunt. i believe that. a lot of the usada info was collected from caught dopers and liars. so does that make the usada 100% true info. not IMO.


You are a very sad person. Very Sad.

Thankfully your opinion does not matter.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

I saw the CNN special on the subject
Tyler still looked like he's lying, just his mannerisms in the interview, he seemed shifty

this has no bearings on my opinion of whether LAnce doped and/or the systematic doping in cycling
or the systematic doping in sport


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> I saw the CNN special on the subject
> Tyler still looked like he's lying, just his mannerisms in the interview, he seemed shifty
> 
> this has no bearings on my opinion of whether LAnce doped and/or the systematic doping in cycling
> or the systematic doping in sport


.02

Some people could be simply telling you what their favorite color is and be extremely uncomfortable in a television interview.

Have you read his book yet? As a cycling fan in general, it is strongly recommended.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

I've found the "reviews" here enlightening - the book is on my X-mas list!


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Just a question here...*

...for those who have read the book. Does Tyler ever speak about what his plan was or is for the return of the money he solicited for his "defense?" His foundation raised a ton of money to defend him against the charges...including hiring geneticists to come up with the "chimeric twin" fairy tale. Did he ever repay that money or donate it to some useful organization, perhaps to feed needy children in the 3rd world, or in America? Or does he plan on doing that in the future if, indeed, he has not done so already? If he is indeed remorseful and a man of honor and integrity, then let's show some true action...perhaps the proceeds from book sales will go to a needy cause. I'd like to think so, but somehow I tend to doubt it. For the record, I always liked and admired Tyler, going back to his Giro performance when he ground his teeth to dust to retain his podium place. But it all dissipated with the "invisible twin" defense. The height of desperation and sheer idiocy...Do the right thing NOW, Tyler...it's never too late!! Pay it back, and then pay it forward.


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## beefa69 (Aug 9, 2012)

nealrab said:


> ...for those who have read the book. Does Tyler ever speak about what his plan was or is for the return of the money he solicited for his "defense?" His foundation raised a ton of money to defend him against the charges...including hiring geneticists to come up with the "chimeric twin" fairy tale. Did he ever repay that money or donate it to some useful organization, perhaps to feed needy children in the 3rd world, or in America? Or does he plan on doing that in the future if, indeed, he has not done so already? If he is indeed remorseful and a man of honor and integrity, then let's show some true action...perhaps the proceeds from book sales will go to a needy cause. I'd like to think so, but somehow I tend to doubt it. For the record, I always liked and admired Tyler, going back to his Giro performance when he ground his teeth to dust to retain his podium place. But it all dissipated with the "invisible twin" defense. The height of desperation and sheer idiocy...Do the right thing NOW, Tyler...it's never too late!! Pay it back, and then pay it forward.


No he does not, but you could just read the book.


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## 4Crawler (Jul 13, 2011)

beefa69 said:


> No he does not, but you could just read the book.


Actually there is a footnote about that on pg. 215.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*If I may ask...*

...what does the footnote indicate? I know I could read the book, but I am not inclined at this point to devote any time to Tyler's story. At least, not until I know where the money for the sale of the book will go. I know it would be like swimming upstream, but integrity in sport is an invaluable commodity. If one doesn't have it, what is the point? I suppose one could keep a bowling or golf score in pencil and make "appropriate" modifications when necessary, but what would be the point? In essence, and I know it's idealistic, one is only cheating themselves with a false result...win and you've lost because you've gained a false result, lose and you've lost because it isn't even an honest loss. Why bother? Find another way to make a living...it isn't rocket science. Cleaning a latrine and making an honest living at it is light years more respectable than winning 7 Tours by cheating the system and yourself. Losing perspective is a terribly sad thing...I realize some athletes think it's the only thing they know how to do well, but it's a misguided hope that will never yield fruit.
Will anyone ever respect Barry Bonds or Mark McGwire? Bobby Bonds' legacy will be longer lasting than his son's...Cheating is forever, lying is forever, taking money to support your lies is perhaps the worst offense of all. At least Lance's fund raising will actually help people in the long term...Floyd's, Tyler's, etc only served to help their selfish ends...which is far more despicable. I ride because I love to ride. I've done it for 40 years, never competitively, and will continue to ride because I love to ride, racing is another world, but I still love to watch folks do it. In the end, it's just competition and it should be honest and fun for the participants. I know it becomes a job for some (maybe most), and that detracts from the experience, but then the activity should be abandoned in favor of a more satisfying job, i.e., get a more meaningful life if cheating becomes a necessity for survival.


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## 4Crawler (Jul 13, 2011)

nealrab said:


> ...what does the footnote indicate?...


"† About $25,000 in all, which according to Hamilton was never used in his defense. “I didn’t feel comfortable using it, so we finally put it in the Tyler Hamilton Foundation.” Bereft of support, the foundation closed in 2008 with a negative balance on the books"


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## beefa69 (Aug 9, 2012)

nealrab said:


> ... I know I could read the book, but I am not inclined at this point to devote any time to Tyler's story.


..and yet here you are 

The point of view that most of the "I don't want to read the book" crowd are missing, and you won't realize this until you read the book, is that the book is more than just about tyler and lance doing drugs. It does a sensational job of portraying the dirty sad underworld that is elite level racing... Not just Tyler's racing. I think most who have read it seem to agree its an open and credible recount of just what it was like trying to be competitive in those years. Substitute nearly any other name and you will have a similar story, it's this aspect and openess that makes the book a good read. 
The interaction between Lance and his team mates and their story is just one part of it, but I suppose that's the beauty of a book, everyone takes away something different.
If you are a fan of racing as you say you are, dont deprive yourself of this insight and drop the TH s also a drug cheat and liar so why support him view.

I'm glad he wrote the book, clearly it's been cathartic for him, but it's helped bring about change and it's opened my eyes to just what an amazing era that was.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Good point, I must say...*

...and perhaps I will reconsider my position. I am certain that I would be educated by Tyler's experiences and his recounting of events during his career. I know it was difficult for all pro cyclists to go through the 90's and 00's with the disparity of performances due to "alteration." The back stories of all cyclists would be fascinating (especially the details in each case), and of all the individuals involved, perhaps the most intriguing to me would be Tyler and George H (and maybe even Frankie Andreu). Their perspectives would be enlightening, as I consider all of them to be fairly intelligent and somewhat thoughtful (thus my comments and interest here). As I believe many cyclists lean towards introspection (since the activity is performed alone for much of the time, i.e., training), it still surprises me that so many made similar missteps along their path in the pro ranks. Only a tiny fraction walked away or had the inner strength to persevere without corrupting their integrity and results.
The fact that the TH Foundation had no funds remaining and no long lasting impact does seem to suggest that the money was used for selfish purposes (defense attorneys) and I might find that fact to be somewhat disingenuous on Tyler's part to claim anything to the contrary. It would stretch one's imagination to believe that all that money would be there and he would have suddenly developed the "inner strength" to resist using it to prolong his fight in maintaining his innocence. Not likely. It's this point more than any other that sticks in my craw...the lengths that some of these guys went to in order to proclaim their innocence when it was clear to all rationally thinking people that they were lying and misleading and then had the audacity to "rob" others of their money to support their need to continue the lie. It was a terrible downward spiral...cheating, lying, stealing...and for what??? Just to ride a bike?? Truly stunning behavior. My point is...at least make an effort to return the money or donate all proceeds of this book to a new cause (and self survival does not count). Tyler, et al should have announced this intent prior to selling one single copy...then I would certainly have already bought and read his story.
Thx for the footnote info. Much appreciated.


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## beefa69 (Aug 9, 2012)

Has their been a cyclist who has admitted guilt as soon as a positive test result was declared?
.. in fact do we ever see anyone accused of something admit to it straight away? very rarely as seems to be human nature. Those who cheat (or commit any crime for that matter) are seemingly always ok to lie about it... and I am sure defense attorneys are thankful for this.
"I did not have sexual relations......" 

"It was a terrible downward spiral...cheating, lying, stealing...and for what??? Just to ride a bike??"
.. it wasn't about the bike. 
I can sympathize with TH after reading how and why he started doping. I've read elsewhere that people tend to agree if they were in the same position they would have done the same, but to understand this view you need to understand how TH and for that matter all the drug cheats, came to be in that position where they needed to decide what was more important.
I would argue that elite level sports people already sacrifice just about everything to achieve that single goal, in that mindset its not a hard leap to say yes to PEDs when seemingly the sport of choice almost encourages it.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*I may be looking at it wrongly...*

...that is, from an old guy perspective, rather than a 25 yr old gung ho elite athlete whose sole purpose was to perform an activity to the highest level possible. I can't possibly understand that thought process since I have always been a rec rider, who just loves to ride. Competition has never entered into it for me...but I'm highly competitive in everything else I've done (basketball, tennis, etc). Cheating at anything competitive would not ever enter my mind, since it would inherently destroy that which I was trying to accomplish. If money was the motivation (and job security), then even a young man with a moral compass and ethical fiber should be able to make the tough decisions...assuming a correct thought process and a decent upbringing.
Could someone cheat at golf, bowling, miniature golf, card games and feel good about it? I suppose so, but I propose that they are weak-minded individuals with a terribly skewed moral compass. All athletes who have cheated are in this category. No exceptions. I have never heard of any runner from the African continent who has been accused of, suspected of or proven to be a PED user. Ethiopians, Kenyans, pick a country...doesn't matter...they have dominated long and middle distance running for decades. Not one cheat. Never. What does that say about Western culture? Germans have cheated for years in the Olympics, Chinese have lied about gymnasts' ages, Iron Curtain weightlifters/wrestlers and field athletes (shot put, hammer, etc) cheated unabashedly for decades. I don't have to single out any particular country, but it helps to prove a point. There is a clear disconnect in our culture when it comes to honor, integrity vs. "winning at all costs." 
It's really disappointing. I loved watching Tyler ride. I enjoyed watching Vino ride. Pantani was sublime on a climb. Heras was like a bird on his machine going uphill. Lance was a brute, but he was never going to give an inch to anyone. How could so many go so wrong so thoroughly? Nothing mattered except the "result." Process be damned, the result was all that mattered. What an utter mess. In 20 years only a minute few had ANY integrity or moral compass??? How bankrupt is professional athletics? Baseball wouldn't even consider banning PEDs. Football turned a blind eye to the Lyle Alzados of the sport. Maybe it's simplistic, but does it really matter WHY Tyler felt the need to enhance his ability? It's not the culture, it's not everybody else's fault, it's not about the pressures and forces working around and on you, IT'S ABOUT YOU. Your weakness, your lack of moral fiber, your inability to make the right decision. Weak individuals make weak choices. Sport suffers. 
Sorry, I vented a bit much...


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## 4Crawler (Jul 13, 2011)

Coming from an engineering background, my feeling is that a lot of this is due to the whole system. After all you have "filter" set up that lets those that will "win at all costs" rise to the top and those that won't do that either drop out of the spot or sink to the bottom. Keep a system like that running with the "positive" feedback of that filter and you end up with what is there now. So UCI and ASO want exciting races to get lots of public interest and press coverage. Teams need winners to get points to get invited to races and publicity for their sponsors. Racers need results to get better contracts. As long as that can happen with minimal "bad press" about cheating, all are happy. Seems the whole system needs to be changed to filter out the bad apples and reward the clean athletes.

And Ethiopian long distance runners are not clean either:
- Shetaye Gemechu first Ethiopian runner to test positive for EPO
- Ethiopian runner banned 2 years for EPO use - trackandfield - ESPN

Some interesting comments:
- Why There is No Drug Problem in Track or Distance Running (satire)


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Great info on those 2 runners...*

...I never got wind of Gemechu or Sisay. There goes the theory...out the window. I'll dismiss the other 2 for morphine, since that clearly wouldn't help anyone do anything athletically. But the other 2 are significant, and I might add, very recent. So it's a new development for Africans. 2010 for Gemechu (unusual for a female runner) and 2012 for Sisay. Let's call it an aberration or a blip. Before 2010, probably unheard of for African athletes. Meanwhile, Europeans have been adulterated for 4-5 decades or more in Olympic sports.
Very true about the "filter" theory. Success is rewarded at any cost/risk. Look at bodybuilders, NFLers, etc. And I understand the dilemma Tyler must have faced. The whole culture was corrupt and many were being rewarded. All are responsible including governing bodies. I'm somewhat surprised we all drank the Lance KoolAid in '99. By 2000-01 we should have known something was horribly wrong. But we did continue to cheer and buy Trek bikes and USPS jerseys. By the way, anyone want a Phonak jersey in primo condition?? It is really sad how rotten the foundation of this particular sport was by the late '90s. And anyone who spoke out was crushed like a bug (Kimmage).
I just wish that accepting the whole of it, Tyler and Floyd particularly, would've put forth a more sincere effort to repay some of the donated monies that bolstered their lying behavior in the final days of their respective cases. Lance and Bonds and Clemens will NEVER come clean on anything. I understand their massive egos will not permit it. But the little fish CAN gain honor once again by offerring up restitution monetarily, since they are making money off their stories and "cathartic experience."
And here's a thought...did we ever hear about a sprinter doping? Abdou, Cipo, McEwen, Steels, etc. Did they resist simply because their specialty did not require augmentation? Did they know it was out there? And were quality riders truly clean...Bettini, for example? Many hard working domestiques and rouleurs were probably clean during the last 15 years...where expectations may have been lower than for GC guys. 
I still may get a copy of TH's book, but would not pay for it. Sometimes the legal/govt system has a way of getting people to "do the right thing." Otherwise, we'd probably never have gotten this whole story aired out fully. And how do we look at Andy Pettitte and George Hincapie...as accomplices who didn't gain too much out of it? But were looking after or supporting their team leaders?? It still doesn't wash out the bad taste. Lots of side stories yet to hear.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

nealrab said:


> ...I never got wind of Gemechu or Sisay. There goes the theory...out the window. I'll dismiss the other 2 for morphine, since that clearly wouldn't help anyone do anything athletically. But the other 2 are significant, and I might add, very recent. So it's a new development for Africans. 2010 for Gemechu (unusual for a female runner) and 2012 for Sisay. Let's call it an aberration or a blip. Before 2010, probably unheard of for African athletes. Meanwhile, Europeans have been adulterated for 4-5 decades or more in Olympic sports.
> Very true about the "filter" theory. Success is rewarded at any cost/risk. Look at bodybuilders, NFLers, etc. And I understand the dilemma Tyler must have faced. The whole culture was corrupt and many were being rewarded. All are responsible including governing bodies. I'm somewhat surprised we all drank the Lance KoolAid in '99. By 2000-01 we should have known something was horribly wrong. But we did continue to cheer and buy Trek bikes and USPS jerseys. By the way, anyone want a Phonak jersey in primo condition?? It is really sad how rotten the foundation of this particular sport was by the late '90s. And anyone who spoke out was crushed like a bug (Kimmage).
> I just wish that accepting the whole of it, Tyler and Floyd particularly, would've put forth a more sincere effort to repay some of the donated monies that bolstered their lying behavior in the final days of their respective cases. Lance and Bonds and Clemens will NEVER come clean on anything. I understand their massive egos will not permit it. But the little fish CAN gain honor once again by offerring up restitution monetarily, since they are making money off their stories and "cathartic experience."
> *And here's a thought...did we ever hear about a sprinter doping? Abdou, Cipo, McEwen, Steels, etc. Did they resist simply because their specialty did not require augmentation? Did they know it was out there? And were quality riders truly clean...Bettini, for example? Many hard working domestiques and rouleurs were probably clean during the last 15 years...where expectations may have been lower than for GC guys.
> I still may get a copy of TH's book, but would not pay for it. Sometimes the legal/govt system has a way of getting people to "do the right thing." Otherwise, we'd probably never have gotten this whole story aired out fully. And how do we look at Andy Pettitte and George Hincapie...as accomplices who didn't gain too much out of it? But were looking after or supporting their team leaders?? It still doesn't wash out the bad taste. Lots of side stories yet to hear*.


Just because a rider isn't there for GC in his own right doesn't preclude him from feeling the need to dope. Tyler Hamilton was not the GC rider in his time at Postal, nor were Heras, Hincapie et al. The dynamics of the sport demands/demanded that the domestique dope/doped to the same degree just to do their job. Only difference was they didn't get to stand atop the podium on their own.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Definitely true...*

...but I must say that Heras was not a domestique in any sense. For 90% of his career he was the team leader, then he came to aid Lance at USPS for a short time. But it is true that many domestiques did have to "keep up" with the GC leader to pour on the power on the early and mid stage climbs and even on the valley flats. But that may only have been true on the bigger more developed teams like USPS and Telekom. Smaller teams that may not have even had a competitive GC guy may not have been in a pressure-cooker atmosphere that forced the domestiques to "keep up" with anyone in particular. I don't recall if anyone other than Eze Mosquera was implicated after the Vuelta recently, I don't believe so. But that would be an example. And sprinter teams might also be less pressured, i.e., Domina Vacanze with Cipo, or Robbie McEwen's teams.


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## beefa69 (Aug 9, 2012)

By "not paying" for the book doesn't that make a mockery of your posts above about morals and standards? 
I can only assume you are referring to obtaining the book by illegitimate means unless you borrow it from a friend or the library.
Next you will be shooting up Epo and suckin down blood bags....very slippery slope


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*No, sorry, my mistake for misleading...*

...I meant I wouldn't buy the book, but would get a library copy at some point in the future. No, I didn't mean to mislead on that point. I certainly wouldn't steal the book!! You're right, it would've made a mockery of my posts if I intended to do something like that. It's a pretty funny position though...yes, I'd steal it, but wouldn't pay for it on moral grounds. That would be great, huh?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Tyler Hamilton

Sportsbook of the Year. Impressive


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Tyler Hamilton
> 
> Sportsbook of the Year. Impressive


Surprising, considering nobody cares.


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