# What has happened to kick stands?



## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Gentlefolk;

I have looked at all the pix here, and all the bikes seem bereft of kick stands. I have had to order one special for my Cadent -- I wudda thought that kick stands would be tossed in as part of the package.

Are kick stands a "Fred" thing? I don't see how one props up a bike without one.

(Yeah, I realize here that there is no NEED to prop up a bike since all bikes here are always moving under their humans...)

Don


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## SkiRacer55 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Campagnolo now has...*

...a 12 ounce, carbon fiber kick stand available for $500. Just kidding! Besides being decidedly non-aero, they add weight. Also, I have yet to see a bike that did not fall over, at least once, when propped up with a kick stand...


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## swamper (Mar 11, 2010)

I just got into road bikes. Been mountain bikeing for years. First road bike 1985 fuji sagres all ornigal. Was going to take off kickstand but i like not haveing to prop it up


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

they're completely useless and add weight. 

the only thing a KS does is guarantee that your bike WILL fall over at some point.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Hmmm.. .I ordered the iridium-titanium kickstand for my bike for $375 -- couldn't justify the C/F extra bucks... but then Im a newbie. It DOES have aero wings on it to keep the rear wheel in closer contact to the pavement. I think that may help.


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

Cadent said:


> It DOES have aero wings on it to keep the rear wheel in closer contact to the pavement. I think that may help.


Sweet. Now if only the bike had a hemi you'd be all set.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

It was an option, but I went with the all-wheel drive configuration. That chewed up the space on my frame.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Not for road bikes*

You're right, few bikes come with kickstands these days. Some cruisers, comfort bikes, etc do -- and for a city bike, they are really great!

On a taller, skinnier, faster road bike, though, they are not of much use, and often downright dangerous. You can accidentally deploy it over a bump or with your heel and cause a crash.

I would suspect some of the reason many manufacturers do not include them OEM is to shield them from any potential liability, should the above happen.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Argentius said:


> I would suspect some of the reason many manufacturers do not include them OEM is to shield them from any potential liability, should the above happen.


Nah, Cadent guessed right: it's the Fred factor.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Laugh all you want. I put a kickstand on my commuter bike and it comes in handy. For the dedicated road bike, I'm generally not away from it long enough to be practical.


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## kykr13 (Apr 12, 2008)

Oxtox said:


> the only thing a KS does is guarantee that your bike WILL fall over at some point.


That's my vote... If there's no good place to lean the bike (being careful not to lean against the frame), then lay it down in the grass with the drive side up. This means with the chain and derailleurs on top, so left side down.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Not liability*



Argentius said:


> I would suspect some of the reason many manufacturers do not include them OEM is to shield them from any potential liability, should the above happen.


Actually, in the quest for low weight, there are few frames on the market that can safely take the clamping force on the chainstays of those old style kickstands.


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## KWL (Jan 31, 2005)

If you do use a kickstand, the double leg Pletcsher is the way to go. My son has one on his Gary Fisher town bike and it is very stable.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> Actually, in the quest for low weight, there are few frames on the market that can safely take the clamping force on the chainstays of those old style kickstands.


^ This.

I've had a few bikes in my stand over the years that showed signs of someone trying to put a kickstand on it at some point. On a road bike, there just isn't enough room most of the time for a kickstand. What's amusing is when someone clamps the KS over their rear derailleur cable then bring it to me because it "mysteriously stopped shifting"...

But yeah... I wouldn't even consider putting a kickstand on a modern road bike.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

Cadent said:


> Are kick stands a "Fred" thing?


You got that right. You don't put a kick stand on a decent bike.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*I was thinking*

More of the traditionally mounted kickstands, between the chainstays.

I sell 10 of those, for every 1 clamp-style stand.

Also, I'm sure you're right for lightweight road frames -- heck, even medium weight road frames.

But almost NO bikes on the domestic market, bar a few cruisers and retro-style deals, come with kickstands -- not 26" comfort bikes, comfort-style hybrids, city bikes, etc. 

Most of these bikes are equipped with a kickstand plate to mount them.

Why do you think they don't come supplied with kickstands from the factory, then?



Kerry Irons said:


> Actually, in the quest for low weight, there are few frames on the market that can safely take the clamping force on the chainstays of those old style kickstands.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Argentius said:


> More of the traditionally mounted kickstands, between the chainstays.
> 
> I sell 10 of those, for every 1 clamp-style stand.
> 
> ...


Because y'all are cheap. 

Some of your (Raleigh's) bikes come with kickstands. The ones that don't, that *should* have them, get them installed by the store relatively often. All of the Detours, Ventures, and Routes in my shop have kickstands on them. I just consider it the price of selling that sort of bike. Makes it easier to display them too, without taking up space on the Rudy Rack.

Scott Sportsters have rear-mounted kickstand bosses (2-bolt). A smart move, IMO, since the Sportsters have pretty lightweight frames for a performance hybrid.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

What has happened to "kick stands" what's a kickstand?

But Seriously...

My road bikes have never had a kick stand and that has been since 1985...


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*You and...*

Pretty well every shop out there.

The only Raleighs that come with kickstands as far as I know are the Circa and Calispell comfort / hybrid bikes... I might be forgetting one. 

And, yes, most shops display them just as you do -- ditto with a bottle cage, though MOST places, you have to buy them (usually at 10% off with bike purchase!).

Do the other brands you carry (or, used to sell, as a manager) come in the box with kickstands?




PlatyPius said:


> Because y'all are cheap.
> 
> Some of your (Raleigh's) bikes come with kickstands. The ones that don't, that *should* have them, get them installed by the store relatively often. All of the Detours, Ventures, and Routes in my shop have kickstands on them. I just consider it the price of selling that sort of bike. Makes it easier to display them too, without taking up space on the Rudy Rack.
> 
> Scott Sportsters have rear-mounted kickstand bosses (2-bolt). A smart move, IMO, since the Sportsters have pretty lightweight frames for a performance hybrid.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Argentius said:


> Pretty well every shop out there.
> 
> The only Raleighs that come with kickstands as far as I know are the Circa and Calispell comfort / hybrid bikes... I might be forgetting one.
> 
> ...


No, not that I remember. Cruisers come with them, of course, but I think Fuji only had them on a few models as well. Pretty much everything else I've ever sold was essentially kickstand-proof (Cervelo, Colnago, Basso, Torelli, Litespeed, QR, Guru, De Rosa, etc)


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Hooben said:


> What has happened to kick stands, what's a kickstand?
> 
> But Seriously...
> 
> My road bikes have never had a kick stand and that has been since 1985...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickstand

(You'll note that it really is one word, not two.)


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## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

My thoughts are that anywhere I ride in public, I'm gonna have a bike lock with me. That, of course, means that I'm gonna have something solid to lock the bike to...This also means that the object is usually sufficient to lean a bike up against. If not, there's something within 100 yards that will do better.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

kykr13 said:


> That's my vote... If there's no good place to lean the bike (being careful not to lean against the frame), then lay it down in the grass with the drive side up. This means with the chain and derailleurs on top, so left side down.


OK, actually, we are touching on a issue I have thought about... the Raleigh Cadent I got IS amazingly light. Maybe not by the standards of the nanotubed BuckieBall C/F unobtanium-built stuff that everyone but me is riding here, but light by the standards to which I am accustomed.

But, light weight also means less abilty to withstand abuse.

So, if you don't "lean against the frame" -- just what IS the load-bearing area you CAN lean a bike against?

AND it seems to me that a bike would be better off on a kickstand rather than laying on it side where any drunk can trip over it.

The mores of this bicycling world is truly baffling at times.....


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Cadent said:


> OK, actually, we are touching on a issue I have thought about... the Raleigh Cadent I got IS amazingly light. Maybe not by the standards of the nanotubed BuckieBall C/F unobtanium-built stuff that everyone but me is riding here, but light by the standards to which I am accustomed.
> 
> But, light weight also means less abilty to withstand abuse.
> 
> ...


Get a kick stand then. And bag the passive aggressive act while you're at it.


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## Cadent (May 16, 2010)

Hank Stamper said:


> Get a kick stand then. And bag the passive aggressive act while you're at it.


Point noted. Doesn't invalidate the inquiry however. My older bikes I either kickstanded or propped up against whatever convenient. I gather from the comments there that the newer bikes really don't like this?

I live in a rural area, so conveniences,such as bike racks and such, which may be the norm for others are not available to me.

And I apologize if the tone of my inquires have offended. It was not my intent.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cadent said:


> OK, actually, we are touching on a issue I have thought about... the Raleigh Cadent I got IS amazingly light. Maybe not by the standards of the nanotubed BuckieBall C/F unobtanium-built stuff that everyone but me is riding here, but light by the standards to which I am accustomed.
> 
> But, *light weight also means less abilty to withstand abuse.
> 
> ...


Your point about lighter bikes being somewhat less durable is (generally speaking) true, thus the remark to take care to prop the bike up using the bars rather than the frame itself.

I think some posters may be forgetting that you bike is a flat bar, thus the confusion. That being the case, you'd have to turn the tire/ bar towards the wall using them as props. This obviously is easier done against a solid wall (or similar), but even if it were against a tree, I'd use the bars/ side of saddle rather than the TT.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> So, if you don't "lean against the frame" -- just what IS the load-bearing area you CAN lean a bike against?


good question. Saddle and handlebars is the answer.

I used to have on one of my bikes a clever product called the "flickstand". It was a little hinged wire bracket that mounted on the bottom of the downtube just behind the front tire, and when you flicked it down it gripped the tire, preventing the steerer from turning. That made the bike a solid panel that could be leaned securely against almost anything. It worked quite well. I think Rhode Gear made it, and I don't think it's made any more.

found a pic


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> good question. Saddle and handlebars is the answer.
> 
> I used to have on one of my bikes a clever product called the "flickstand". It was a little hinged wire bracket that mounted on the bottom of the downtube just behind the front tire, and when you flicked it down it gripped the tire, preventing the steerer from turning. That made the bike a solid panel that could be leaned securely against almost anything. It worked quite well. I think Rhode Gear made it, and I don't think it's made any more.
> 
> found a pic


It isn't made anymore. It should be. I have one also; unfortunately, it won't fit on the bikes I would use it on. Maybe that's why they don't make it anymore - too many variations?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> Maybe that's why they don't make it anymore - too many variations?



How many bikes are made with tubing of a circular cross-section, oh shop owner?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Marc said:


> How many bikes are made with tubing of a circular cross-section, oh shop owner?


Not the tubing variations...you could use a cloth band clamp for that. I mean the distance between the down tube and the front tire. There are a lot of different fork rakes, funky frame designs, etc out there now, whereas when the Flickstand was introduced, there was pretty much "Racing Bike" and "Touring Bike".

The problem on my Rawland is that the metal bit comes nowhere even close to the front tire. I had the same problem on another bike I tried it on.


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## JacoStillLives (May 7, 2010)

the kickstand went out with powdered wigs


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Leaning*



Cadent said:


> My older bikes I either kickstanded or propped up against whatever convenient. I gather from the comments there that the newer bikes really don't like this?


We all need somebody to lean on. I spent two summers touring on a bike without a kickstand - I just leaned it against things. I've NEVER felt the need for a kickstand.

I've been leaning high performance lightweigh bikes against things for some 40 years without incident. Why you would lay it on the ground is a mystery to me. As long as the bike is "properly leaned" so that it doesn't roll and scratch the paint along the frame tube, there is not a bike made that can't be leaned against any part of it. After all, a 15 lb bike doesn't put much force on anything when it is leaned against a wall, window, sign post, etc.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

JacoStillLives said:


> the kickstand went out with powdered wigs


powdered wigs went out about the time that bicycles were invented, so maybe not.


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## Ibashii (Oct 23, 2002)

old_fuji said:


> My thoughts are that anywhere I ride in public, I'm gonna have a bike lock with me. That, of course, means that I'm gonna have something solid to lock the bike to...This also means that the object is usually sufficient to lean a bike up against. If not, there's something within 100 yards that will do better.


Umm, yeah. Seriously, didn't the kickstand truly die when the world became too unstable to leave your bike unlocked for more than two seconds? I used them in the small town where I grew up, back when I didn't own a lock because everybody knew whose bike was whose, but since I've had a bike lock I haven't even thought of a kickstand.



JCavilia said:


> powdered wigs went out about the time that bicycles were invented, so maybe not.


Does that mean those wigs that British lawyers wear aren't, in fact, powdered??


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## tanoshinde (Jun 1, 2010)

I think kickstands stopped being part of the package when people started realizing that they didn't see them dangling off bikes in the TDF or in big MTB races. 

Around that same time, I would guess, bike shops probably also realized they could make a few extra bucks by selling them as add-ons (IMO, if that increases their margin enough to help them stay in business without insanely increasing the purchase price of their bikes, we're good). I've read somewhere that most of us would rather pay, for example, $500 for a bike plus $15 for a kick-stand than buy a 'more expensive' iteration of the same bike that cost $515 but included the kickstand. It's one of those weird marketing psychology ideas that I don't really understand. I'll have to see if I can find that source.

That being said, my commuter has an OEM kickstand, my road bike has no kickstand at all. I use the one on the commuter all the time; I don't miss it at all on the road bike. If I had only one bike for both pursuits, though, I would want the kickstand. It's a PITA to load your rack or panniers when your bike is leaning against a wall, or while trying to hold it up.

For the record, yes, I do occasionally botch my 'use kickstand' roll -- maybe once every 400 or 500 tries. Since the commuter is, by design, a hoss, it doesn't care 

Different solutions for different problems.

*Edit:* fixed some syntax in the paragraph about weird marketing psychology so it actually makes sense.


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## Burtsc (Apr 15, 2010)

When I brought my bike home and stood it up against the couch, my wife said " you paid a thousand dollars for a bike, and it doesnt even come with a kickstand."


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

PlatyPius said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickstand
> 
> (You'll note that it really is one word, not two.)


Thanks Platy, it was Cadent that used it as two words.


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## sonic_W (Sep 2, 2008)

they might be nice for a touring bike, when you have bags and stuff in the way of lying the bike down on the ground. otherwise, however, there's no need for a kickstand. if you need to do roadside maintenance, just flip the bike upside down. if you need to let go of your bike, just lay it in the ground. i'd prefer a few scratches over a dented tube, which is likely to occur should something push a bike over while it's using a kickstand.


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