# wide rims: hype or improvement?



## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Are wide rims just a bunch of hype, or do they make for more aero wheels and/or less rolling resistance? 

Are the benefits the same with tubulars vs clinchers?


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

No hype, IMHO. At least with regard to ride and handling improvement. 

I don't own a wind tunnel so I can't speak to the aero. Same with the rolling resistance. AndI only run clinchers.

But I've switched to wider rims on two of my bikes (so far). Using the very same tires, just moving them from 19mm rims to 23mm rims, on both bikes I immediately felt an improvement in ride. Handling improvement is subtle, but it's there. It's hard to articulate the difference in the feel, but it's very nice and confidence-inspiring.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

At first, I will admit that I was a skeptic of hopping on the hype train for wide rims. It didn't seem like it would make that big of a difference to me. However, after talking to a few of our customers who had them, I started to second guess myself. So eventually I decided to hop on a pair to see what all the fuss was about. 
Now, I will admit that in a straight line, wide rims feel almost exactly the same as any narrow rim. However, where I noticed a considerable difference was in the cornering. When leaning the bike over, a wider rim really does feel more consistent, predictable, and stable than some of the < 20mm wide counterparts. 
All in all, I would say absolutely go for a wider rim. The clinchular style really does have the ride quality of tubys, with the convenience of a clincher.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

I haven't noticed any significant difference in rolling resistance or aero improvements at high speed or when it's windy. There aren't too many places for me to test high speed cornering where I ride (damn stop signs) but I think I am a little more confident leaning the bike over farther and cornering at higher speed. The main benefit for me is ride quality on rough pavement and the ability to run lower tire pressure. I can easily run 80 psi without excessive tire sidewall bulge and no pinch flats. I'm happy to move away from the jarring ride of 100psi and narrow rims or the bouncier and more isolated feel of wider tires.


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## roadriderR5 (Jan 12, 2011)

Switched to Hed Ardennes rims and love the feel of the wider rim. It definitely has a more composed ride. I have a number of sets of very nice wheels that I bought before I built up the Hed rims, and I will occasionally put a set of them on to ride for a week or so. I am always suprised at the difference when I go back to the Hed rims. It is a noticeable improvement.
As far as the aero advantage, I have seen testing results that show an advantage. My thoughts are that in aeronautics when the airplane speed is lower a thicker wing is more efficient. That is the reason that planes use slats(front of the wing) and flaps(rear of the wing) to alter the shape of the wing when landing and taking off.
The rolling resistance test that convinced me was Continental in Germany. I don't remember if it was Hed or Stans that sent them their wider rims and asked them to test rolling resistance with Continental tires. The engineers did not expect to see a measureable difference, but their was noticeably less rolling resistance with the wider rim.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't know nuthin' from nuthin' on these, as I don't yet have a pair - but looking to build some up soon. I did want to make a note about the aero theory about these:

The key thing: They aren't significantly wider then a standard set, as a wheel-tire unit. What they are is smoother: Rather than shaping like a lightbulb, the rim becomes tangent (or nearly so) to the widest part of the tire. In theory, that lets the air flow over the tire and rim more smoothly. 

That's likely a fairly small point on low profile rims like the Belgiums or A23s, which aren't very aero anyway. Not much sense in bothering to avoid the separation that's going to occur quickly enough anyway. It probably has some benefit, but I won't speculate how much or at which angles, etc. For deeper rims like Jets, it's relatively more impactful, since they do have a better opportunity to keep the airflow together.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

I had some wheels built for my commuter/touring bike with Velocity Dyad rims, which are the same width as A23s. I noticed no improvement in ride quality, handling or aerodynamics but this bike is used primarily for commuting with a large seat bag. 

The Dyads are heavier than A23s and mine have 36 spokes, so they are noticeably heavier than my other wheels, which all have Open Pros. I recently bought another set of Open Pros to put back on my commuter bike because the extra weight was not worth any perceived benefit from the Dyads. The biggest disadvantage to the Dyads (or A23s) is that you can't simply swap wheels with other road bikes unless they also have wider rims because the brakes will be out of adjustment. The first time I swapped wheels I forgot this simple fact and almost killed myself. Headed down my driveway (which is on a hill), reached for my brakes to slow down at the street, and my bike kept going like I had no brakes at all. Fortunately there wasn't a car coming or I would have been run over.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

I don't notice any difference in aero or rolling resistance.
Not that I think I would be able to accurately detect any aero or rolling resistance difference even if it was there.


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## joe4702 (Aug 31, 2008)

How much wider do these rims make the wheel (tire) at it's widest point? With 20mm Mavic rims and 25mm Krylions, I only have about 1/16" clearance at the left chain stay on my Felt Z. I am considering A23s (with 25mm tires), but fear they would rub.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

ericm979 said:


> Are wide rims just a bunch of hype, or do they make for more aero wheels and/or less rolling resistance?


Nothing wrong with them. There is no rolling resistance benefit (measured) and no aero benefit unless it is a deep+wide rim. I think the handling thing is placebo. How many people test their cornering limits on a regular basis? I haven't noticed that a high pressure tire on a narrow rim suffers from handling issues.

Plus... if matching the tire and rim width is so magical, then you should feel the same magic by putting 20mm tires on your 20mm rims...


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

i politely disagree.

have ridden mtb tubeless, low pressure, wider rims and obviously the results speak for themselves at the international level; anyone who wants to be even remotely competitive is on to this idea.

now, roadies are very traditional and slow to change, but things are all slowly moving in that direction with data to back up the ideas.

Zipp, HED and others are moving to wider rims which change the profile of the tire on the rim from a narrow one.

one benefit is going to be traction, and how the tires follows the terrain instead of moving in the vertical plane.
this means better handling, don't know about you but on a steep descents with many turns I would take the widest tire i could find and disc brakes and say see you at the bottom, while others hold on for dear life to their skinny and marginal grip on their existence..lol

now aero, dont know, but unless riding in tt who cares...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

a_avery007 said:


> have ridden mtb tubesless, low pressure, wider rims and obviously the results speak for themselves at the international level; anyone who wants to be even remotely competitive is on to this idea.


There is no comparison. On an MTB, you are on a soft and rough surface... where fat tires, low pressure, pinch flat resistance... and a wide rim to accommodate the low pressure... make sense. Besides that, the tire is still *much* wider than the rim. 

Road bikes have a completely different set of requirements.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I think it is a marketing gimick to sell wheelsets that cost more.
Both A23 and C2 rims are significantly more expensive than conventional rims.
Just thinking about it, for a given tire size a wider rim would LOWER the tire profile possibly resulting in more pinch flats and a rougher ride. Might make some sense with 25mm tires but certainly not 23mm


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

I switched and ride HED Ardennes as well as A23s (laced to White Indust hubs). Definitely better cornering and handling over rough roads due to wider profile and lower tire pressure. The HED C2 rims are bit expensive but the Velocity A23s are less expensive than a Mavic Open Pro.


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## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

With clinchers I do like the Ardennes as it allows the tire to be a bit rounder, and more tubular like in handling and feel. Not a huge difference, but noticeable. As far as aero I switched from the old 404's, to the FC's (both tubular) mid season, and there was no real change in speed at a given power on my usual training route. Not really scientific, but I can neither feel any difference, nor detect it with my power meter in terms of forward speed. I touch more stable in sidewinds maybe, but I'm used to riding with deep wheels so it's never been something I've paid attention to anyways.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

where I live and ride all those characteristics still apply to road bikes.

yes, i ride on road tubeless too for those exact same reasons.

this trend is not going away anytime soon and will only expand further into the road market.

whether you want to have a better riding experience is up to you, i prefer safer, faster and more comfortable all in a single riding experience.


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## dakota (Nov 25, 2009)

jnbrown said:


> I think it is a marketing gimick to sell wheelsets that cost more.
> Both A23 and C2 rims are significantly more expensive than conventional rims.
> Just thinking about it, for a given tire size a wider rim would LOWER the tire profile possibly resulting in more pinch flats and a rougher ride. Might make some sense with 25mm tires but certainly not 23mm


I have to disagree. You can get A23s for as little as $53.00. While It is counterintuitive, the profile is not lowered (at least not by any appreciable amount) and the greater volume provided by the wider rim protects from pinch flats even at reduced pressures. While some of the benefits may be overstated, there is no question that wider rims improve the quality of the ride.


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

jnbrown said:


> Just thinking about it, for a given tire size a wider rim would LOWER the tire profile possibly resulting in more pinch flats and a rougher ride...


Sorry, but you're wrong across the board in your assumptions. 
1) the tire build height would only decrease by a meaningful measure if the tire were already spread out to the full width of the rim (picture a low-profile car tire), and they you put them on an even wider rim. You can stretch out the bottom edges of the "light bulb" profile of a mounted, 23mm tire from 14mm to 18mm (the inner dimensions of 19mm & 23mm rims) without perceptibly changing the build height.
2) The geometry is pretty simple: you've got a larger overall cross-section and thus more air volume inside the larger combined chamber formed by the wider rim/tire unit. That greater volume of air = greater cushion to absorb hits, which is why you can drop pressure.
3) to get a pinch-flat, the tire has to bulge out over the outer edge of the rim wall. The less it does this, the less there is to pinch in the case of a big hit. Remove the tube from the wide-rim equation (tubeless anyone?) and your chance of pinch flatting goes from lower to zero ...

I'm as suspicious of industry hype as the next guy, but the move to wide rims makes a lot of sense.
I'd really love to see some quantitative data on "ride quality," but rather than waiting around for that, I'm going to go out and replace the 19mm Velocity rims I just cracked on our crappy, potholed, chipsealed local roads with something nice & fat, and go out & do some field testing myself.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

BergMann said:


> You can stretch out the bottom edges of the "light bulb" profile of a mounted, 23mm tire from 14mm to 18mm (the inner dimensions of 19mm & 23mm rims) without perceptibly changing the build height.





> That greater volume of air = greater cushion to absorb hits, which is why you can drop pressure.


However imperceptible that height difference is, the volume difference will be even less. Just run a 25mm tire and you've increased volume a lot more than if you switched to a wide rim. 



> to get a pinch-flat, the tire has to bulge out over the outer edge of the rim wall. The less it does this, the less there is to pinch in the case of a big hit.


It doesn't matter how *much* tire is bulging out... only *if* it does... and they all do. If the tire sidewall gets pinched between the rim and the ground, then the tube will also.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I wonder why anyone would argue against it. Rims got narrower before because tires got narrower. Now that we know ultra narrow tires don't benefit a road bike ride, wider tires are getting common. It only makes sense to have rims to match. You also get more air volume inside the tire, which will allow it to conform better to the road surface and add additional cushioning to the ride. Some may easily notice the difference, while others may not. But, the benefit will definitely be there.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

roadriderR5 said:


> My thoughts are that in aeronautics when the airplane speed is lower a thicker wing is more efficient. That is the reason that planes use slats(front of the wing) and flaps(rear of the wing) to alter the shape of the wing when landing and taking off.
> 
> 
> > I am not sure that correlates to lower wind drag that is desired in a bicycle wheel. The point of an airplane wing is not to minimize drag, but to create a pressure differential on one side of the wing vs the other, aka lift. The slats and flaps help alter the wing's lift characteristics, but do not reduce drag. (which is what you desire in a bicycle wheel). Reducing frontal area and turbulence are two of the big factors in making vehicles "aerodynamically efficient".


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

dakota said:


> I have to disagree. You can get A23s for as little as $53.00. While It is counterintuitive, the profile is not lowered (at least not by any appreciable amount) and the greater volume provided by the wider rim protects from pinch flats even at reduced pressures. While some of the benefits may be overstated, there is no question that wider rims improve the quality of the ride.


Correct, a bicycle tire cross section, with the rim is bascially round. By adding rim width, you are increasing the circumference and thus the diameter (both vertically and horizontally. Now if you go way overboard and put such a wide rim on that you create an oval, you have another story. 

Many people have more experience with car tires. When thinking of a car tire, the tire can be thought of as much more of a rectangular section with a flat tread and vertical sidewalls (yes, they buldge). In that case when the rim is wider than the tread, you turn the rectangle in to a trapizoid and he profile height indeed becomes lower. Again, that holds true more for a car, not a bike.


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

rruff said:


> However imperceptible that height difference is, the volume difference will be even less. Just run a 25mm tire and you've increased volume a lot more than if you switched to a wide rim.
> It doesn't matter how *much* tire is bulging out... only *if* it does... and they all do. If the tire sidewall gets pinched between the rim and the ground, then the tube will also.


Glad to hear you're jumping on the increased volume bandwagon. Heck, we could run 32mm cross tires and have even more.

You're still missing a central point here: key to not just the aerodynamic, but also cornering & flat-resistance principle is replacing the "light bulb" profile of a 23mm tire on a 19mm rim with something that looks more like the U profile of a car tire.

The "light bulb" profile leads to tire flop in corners, period. You can get a tire with a stiffer casing to reduce this flop, or you can widen the rim.
As for pinch flats, same story: running higher pressure and/or having a stiffer sidewall better resists tire compression.
Widening the rim to allow sidewalls to run closer to perpendicular would add yet further structural resistance to compression. The amount of bulge *does* matter - not so much for whether there will be some overlapping tube to pinch (there will), but because a perpendicular sidewall section is going to resist compression better than a curved sidewall section.

What I don't get about some of the retro-grouching against the industry shift to wider rims, is why argue against technology that optimizes the performance of the 23mm, 200-220g clinchers most road riders are already riding?
I get grouchy too whenever I smell the industry trying to sell yet more useless BS (integrated bar/stem combos anyone?), but tire technology has been improving in leaps & bounds in recent years, and as a rider who has been at this sport for almost 3 decades now, for the first time, I'm starting to get the sense that recent developments in wheel technology are finally starting to be relevant to someone other than Fabian Cancellara.
If replacing my recently-deceased 19mm wheelset with a 21-23mm wide rim will make my amazing 23mm Conti 4000s perform even better while cornering, then frankly, I don't care whether or not there are added aero, rolling resistance, or flat-resistance benefits.

Besides, be honest now, when was the last time you had a pinch flat on a properly-inflated 23mm road tire? I ride on *abysmal* road surfaces at irresponsible speeds, and run 105psi front, 110psi rear, and haven't pinch flatted in at least a decade.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

joe4702 said:


> How much wider do these rims make the wheel (tire) at it's widest point? With 20mm Mavic rims and 25mm Krylions, I only have about 1/16" clearance at the left chain stay on my Felt Z. I am considering A23s (with 25mm tires), but fear they would rub.


The Michelins (Krylion,Pro2Race, and some Pro3Race, Optimum Pro) in size 700x25c have always been 27mm wide and 26mm tall; at least on a rim of 15mm inner width (e.g Mavic Equipe, Fulcrum Racing 5).

A Michelin Krylion in size 700x23c has always been (width x height) 24.5mm x 23mm.

Since they shifted production to the Far East tyres in size 700x23c run more to spec now. I fitted a brand new pair of Michelin Krylion Carbons and they are way smaller than all the Krylions I had in the past.

The new bead-to-bead measure is only 60mm. All my other Krylions had 65mm. However, I am not sure if it stretches to 65mm after a few rides.

By comparison a Vittoria Open Pave in size 700x24c has a bead-to-bead size of 65mm (as large as the older Michelins 700x23c).

A 700x25c Michelin always measured 70mm bead-to-bead (e.g Krylion 700x25c).

The new Michelin series Pro4Race (there will be 4 versions re-branding and replacing the Krylion, Pro3Race, Pro3Grip and Pro3 Light under the same main name) will also run to spec, so I have been told by Michelin UK custommer service. Although they said the 25mm will always run much larger. The German Tour magazine tested the Pro4Race Light 700x23c and it only measured 22mm wide and 21mm tall. 

Why not just fit a 23mm Michelin if you have got problems with tyre clearance?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

BergMann said:


> The "light bulb" profile leads to tire flop in corners, period. You can get a tire with a stiffer casing to reduce this flop, or you can widen the rim.


Anybody who regularly races down switchback descents (like I do) would know about this. My narrow rims do not result in any "tire flop" that I notice. A narrow high-pressure bicycle tire just doesn't have a lot of room to flop around. A 50+mm MTB tire inflated to 25 psi with a 22mm rim... sure, I bet you could feel a difference going to a 28mm rim. Totally different story. But note that the rim is still way narrower than the tire. 



> As for pinch flats, same story: running higher pressure and/or having a stiffer sidewall better resists tire compression. Widening the rim to allow sidewalls to run closer to perpendicular would add yet further structural resistance to compression.


If they have higher resistance to compression, then they *must* have less compliance. You can't have it both ways, but the manufacturers claim you do.



> What I don't get about some of the retro-grouching against the industry shift to wider rims, is why argue against technology that optimizes the performance of the 23mm, 200-220g clinchers most road riders are already riding?


What I don't like about it, is that it's 99% marketing BS... plain and simple. Bill Hicks on Marketing - YouTube

A wider rim isn't going to particularly *hurt* anything (weight being the only clear negative), and frankly I think 21mm is the sweet spot for 23mm tires. But it isn't going to make a beneficial difference either, to ride comfort or aerodynamics or handling that anyone can notice... except that bicycle stuff is so placebo and belief driven that everyone claims they notice it! We had ceramic bearings that were hyped to result in big speed increases, and now this... "lower resistance, more compliant, fewer pinch flats, more aerodynamic, better handling". Wow... sounds awesome! Unfortunately the only one that passes examination is the aero one... *if* it is a deep rim with a 23mm tire. And that isn't what we are talking about here.


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## BergMann (Mar 14, 2004)

rruff said:


> A wider rim isn't going to particularly *hurt* anything (weight being the only clear negative), and frankly I think 21mm is the sweet spot for 23mm tires. But it isn't going to make a beneficial difference either...


We get it, you don't believe in benefits, because you don't want to believe.
That's your good right.

What I don't get, is why you're endorsing 21mm over 19mm if there's no difference?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

BergMann said:


> What I don't get, is why you're endorsing 21mm over 19mm if there's no difference?


A well shaped 21mm wide by 25-30mm deep rim can be quite decent for aero. Plus you can use 20mm tires if you wish.


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## justslow (Aug 1, 2011)

rruff said:


> A well shaped 21mm wide by 25-30mm deep rim can be quite decent for aero. Plus you can use 20mm tires if you wish.


 we went from 19 mm to 23 mm. 21 is probably where it will end up. Does this rim exist today? 
When campy first started to make a clincher rim, their better rim (delta strada xl) was 22mm wide with 14mm bead width. The rim road well with a 23mm tire. I do think how the rim holds the tire & tire width and of course, tire quality are what makes for good handling.


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## joe4702 (Aug 31, 2008)

> Why not just fit a 23mm Michelin if you have got problems with tyre clearance?


I could run 23s if I went to A23 rims. Those shouldn't have any problems with clearance. The question is how does a 25mm tire on a 20mm rim compare to a 23 on a 23mm rim as far as ride and handling? I guess even if they are equivalent, the advantage of the A23/23mm tire combo is more tire choices.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

justslow said:


> we went from 19 mm to 23 mm. 21 is probably where it will end up. Does this rim exist today?


The Stan's 340 has a 20mm width and a large inner cavity, and the bead hook makes tires fatter and rounder. It's probably a pretty good aero profile with a 20mm tire (only 22mm deep), but not with 23mm tires. 

The older Shimano rims were 21mm wide and 24mm deep, and they performed surprisingly well in aero testing.


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

rruff said:


> The Stan's 340 has a 20mm width and a large inner cavity, and the bead hook makes tires fatter and rounder. It's probably a pretty good aero profile with a 20mm tire (only 22mm deep), but not with 23mm tires.
> 
> The older Shimano rims were 21mm wide and 24mm deep, and they performed surprisingly well in aero testing.


I'm pretty sure the current 7900 series Dura Ace aluminum-rimmed wheels are 20.9mm widths. But then again, they are .1mm too narrow, and thus are surely crap. Just kidding!


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

Bumping this as I'm getting ready to build up a new set of wheels. From what i've found so far, HED C2 and Velocity A23 are the only 2 rims that are available right now? Are there any other rims out there to choose from?


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## Mdrnizd (Oct 21, 2009)

What air pressures are you guys running with the HED C2 wheels?


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

foofighter said:


> Bumping this as I'm getting ready to build up a new set of wheels. From what i've found so far, HED C2 and Velocity A23 are the only 2 rims that are available right now? Are there any other rims out there to choose from?


Those are the most popular options. Other options weigh more, but are also stronger (Velocity Synergy, Velocity Dyad, DT Swiss TK540).


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

ohhh DT Swiss, let me dig up those specs, I was hoping Mavic would be jumping in on this.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

foofighter said:


> ohhh DT Swiss, let me dig up those specs, I was hoping Mavic would be jumping in on this.


The TK540 is a heavy duty rim. It weighs 540 grams and is slightly over 23mm wide with double eyelets. It is kind of like a wide version of the RR465.


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

Who all are making wider rims now besides Hed?


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Mdrnizd said:


> What air pressures are you guys running with the HED C2 wheels?


I weigh 170-180 and run 80 psi most of the time. I've tried 90-100 psi and they are still pretty comfortable. The tire side walls hardly bulge, so I think I could easily run 70 front and 75 rear without pinch flatting.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

thanks valley, i saw the specs and that was checked off the list


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*A23*



foofighter said:


> Bumping this as I'm getting ready to build up a new set of wheels. From what i've found so far, HED C2 and Velocity A23 are the only 2 rims that are available right now? Are there any other rims out there to choose from?


I built up a set from A23s a few months ago and they are great. Most notably, it's much easier to get tires off and on. It does widen the tire cross section a bit; a 23 looks about like a 25.


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*wider rims*



rruff said:


> A well shaped 21mm wide by 25-30mm deep rim can be quite decent for aero. Plus you can use 20mm tires if you wish.


I think 22mm wide is ideal. prebuilt fulcrum,shimano is 20.5mm I dont feel much difference. 23mm looks too wide in my opinion. But for comfort/low pressure, tubeless wins.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Anyone else having problems getting their rim tape to stay in place on the wider HED belgium rims? My rim tape (and I've been using the wider MTB cotton rim tape) tends to bunch up slightly on each side, and if left unchecked for a few thousand miles, will actually start exposing nipple holes.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

nightfend said:


> Anyone else having problems getting their rim tape to stay in place on the wider HED belgium rims?


Yes, I've had that issue with my 24mm Velocity VXCs. I tried Velocity's Veloplugs when I bought my A23s and that's worked well. Next tire change I'll put the Veloplugs in the VXCs too. Which reminds me I ought to order them.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Anyone know if they make veloplugs that fit the HED rims?


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

My A23's *felt* better with 25c tires than the sun, giant, kinlin and alex rims I had before. I have no desire or need to determine if they did anything measurably different, but after a few pedal strokes you notice an absolute difference. I very much enjoyed everything about my A23's.

So they're no slower or faster, but they feel better. Seems like a win/win to me.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

nightfend said:


> Anyone know if they make veloplugs that fit the HED rims?


From the Velocity web site:



> Red plugs fit our non eyeleted rims or any rim with an 8.0mm web hole
> Yellow plugs fit our eyeleted rims or any rim with an 8.5-9.3mm web hole


So, erm… measure your hole.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

nightfend said:


> Anyone know if they make veloplugs that fit the HED rims?


Yes, I think it's the yellow ones... can remember for sure though, and I don't have any at the moment.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

nightfend said:


> Anyone know if they make veloplugs that fit the HED rims?


Ergott has reported in a separate thread that the yellows fit, but tightly. You'll want something to help push them in, like a punch of about the same diameter.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Tight is fine, if not better actually. I'll give the yellow ones a try.


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## Pitts Pilot (Dec 5, 2011)

My HED Belgiums have yellow Veloplugs.

As far as the whole "are wide rims just hype," I will say that one really cool advantage is that you can run wide tires (up to 28 for me) and still fit the tires through the brake calipers because they are set wider. I like that.


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## Christopaul (Jan 27, 2012)

HED and Zipp share the same patent on the wide rim wheel. While riding HED Ardennes (2010) I feel faster...when coasting I usually overtake other riders that are coasting. This set of wheels is paired with Sapim CX Ray spokes. I feel fresher after long rides. I road my Mavic Ksyrium ES wheeled bike last week and it feels so inferior... There are so many factors to consider for "all purpose" wheels. Recent technological improvements in both design and materials certainly keeps the pressure on us unsponsored riders!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Christopaul said:


> HED and Zipp share the same patent on the wide rim wheel. While riding HED Ardennes (2010) I feel faster...when coasting I usually overtake other riders that are coasting. This set of wheels is paired with Sapim CX Ray spokes. I feel fresher after long rides. I road my Mavic Ksyrium ES wheeled bike last week and it feels so inferior... There are so many factors to consider for "all purpose" wheels. Recent technological improvements in both design and materials certainly keeps the pressure on us unsponsored riders!


even according to HED's own published data, the ardennes do not have very good drag numbers. They aren't much better than a standard OEM wheel.


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## Christopaul (Jan 27, 2012)

You obviously have not ridden HED Ardennes wheels. Do you have a link for this so called published data? The drag numbers are better and more importantly actual performance is better. The wider footprint has benefits beyond drag coefficients; superior cornering, tubular like gripping and the ability to run at lower air pressures without sacrificing performance.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Christopaul said:


> You obviously have not ridden HED Ardennes wheels. Do you have a link for this so called published data? The drag numbers are better and more importantly actual performance is better. The wider footprint has benefits beyond drag coefficients; superior cornering, tubular like gripping and the ability to run at lower air pressures without sacrificing performance.


That took about 10 seconds of Googling to find: HED Cycling Ardennes*GP See "aero data" tab.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Christopaul said:


> You obviously have not ridden HED Ardennes wheels. Do you have a link for this so called published data? The drag numbers are better and more importantly actual performance is better. The wider footprint has benefits beyond drag coefficients; superior cornering, tubular like gripping and the ability to run at lower air pressures without sacrificing performance.


the 'so called published data' is on Hed's website as the previous poster pointed out. I race on Hed stinger (flamme rouge) c2 rims, train on a rs80 wheelset (22 mm) and a set of Kinlin 30's (19 width I think) with a powertap. Still, I wouldn't bet that I could tell the difference between rims based solely on width. 'tubular like gripping' etc sounds like marketing babble to me. What specifically is the advantage of running at lower air pressures? If it's dry out, I always ride at 115 psi (if Michelin) or 120 (if Conti).


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

krisdrum said:


> See "aero data" tab.


It did better than "standard OE wheel"... no description. It's pretty tough to lose a test like that...


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

It has a 100 gram of drag advantage at worst, and nearly no difference at higher angles. Im not sure what that even means.


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

Tech Tuesday

Interbike 2011: Wheel Manufacturers Go Wider For 2012 - BikeRadar

Tire Rolling Resistance | Roues Artisanales


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

rruff said:


> It did better than "standard OE wheel"... no description. It's pretty tough to lose a test like that...


yes, the only way to lose the test is to design a wheel like the r-sys with straws for spokes. The poster above mentioned he coasts by everyone on his Ardennes - it's not because of their drag numbers, which are not special. A 40mm rim beats them by a lot, and a 30mm rim with aero spokes likely does too. Reduced rolling resistance is questionable - maybe a couple of watts, and would be trumped by tire construction. It would be worth knowing whether a tire like the pro race 4 (lowest reported rolling resistance) is designed with wide rims in mind or not - since their pointed profile is their design change it's possible this is lost on a wider rim, losing their benefits including better cornering.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

A couple of watts savings would be a lot IMO. Al at BTR found no Crr advantage at all. 

As for aero, people report that it adds ~2mm to the tire's width, so a 23mm tire sticks out 1mm past the brake tracks on each side, compared to the same tire on a 20mm rim sticking out 1.5mm. Doesn't seem like a very big difference... and the rim is only 24mm deep. It's probably decent for aero, though... the Hed rim has a nice shape... maybe as good as a Kinlin XR270.

Hed doesn't seem shy about publishing aero data on their deeper rims and comparing them to actual competitor's offerings. Seems like they'd do the same with the aluminum rim if the the truth was in their favor. With Crr, they wouldn't even need to list competitors... just show the improvement compared to a narrower rim.


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## Christopaul (Jan 27, 2012)

Data is merely interesting. Actually riding/using them tells you the truth. I can't begin to list all the mistakes I've made relying on marketing data. This is not one of them. Why don't all the critics consider actually riding them? If you use a 23mm tire there are benefits that go beyond 100 grams which many will realize years from now as more builders start widening their rims...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Christopaul said:


> Actually riding/using them tells you the truth.


It does? I feel "different" every time I ride. Unless I can do immediate back to back comparisons, there is no chance I'd be able to discern these tiny differences. Probably very little chance even then. Certainly *no* chance I'd be able to "measure" differences in speed based on "feel".

The placebo effect is an amazing thing...


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Its not a small difference, its pretty big and someone would be hard pressed not to notice. You can immediately feel you're on something new. 

If the resistance is the same, and the speed is the same, and they dont really cost more.. why so opposed to wider rims?


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

rruff said:


> It does? I feel "different" every time I ride. Unless I can do immediate back to back comparisons, there is no chance I'd be able to discern these tiny differences. Probably very little chance even then. Certainly *no* chance I'd be able to "measure" differences in speed based on "feel".
> 
> The placebo effect is an amazing thing...


No kidding. I never feel the same on any 2 rides. All it takes is a 1 mph back wind or head wind.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

TomH said:


> Its not a small difference, its pretty big and someone would be hard pressed not to notice. You can immediately feel you're on something new.
> 
> If the resistance is the same, and the speed is the same, and they dont really cost more.. why so opposed to wider rims?


I mentioned above that I own two sets of wide rims, hed stinger and rs80. I am not against them, just don't think they give me wings or something magical.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

TomH said:


> If the resistance is the same, and the speed is the same, and they dont really cost more.. why so opposed to wider rims?


I'm not opposed at all... just annoyed by the hype machine in the face of data that either disproves it or is lacking. 

The only difference I noted was that my rims and tires looked fatter.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

shokhead said:


> No kidding. I never feel the same on any 2 rides. All it takes is a 1 mph back wind or head wind.


Some days my bike feels a lot smoother than others for no apparent reason.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

FYI, Giant's new rims are advertised at being 21mm wide.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

My biggest issue with my HED Jet's is that if I switch to another set of wheels on my bike, I am constantly having to re-adjust the brakes to either fit the narrow or wide rims. I have ended up just leaving the brake release in the fully open position for the Jet wheels, and the closed position for my other wheels.


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## haasezlube (May 27, 2010)

*Wide Rims vs Classic Narrow*

As a few individuals have suggested already wide rims used to be the norm, as skinny rims only became apparent as tires kept getting smaller due to previous thoughts on Skinny must be faster which has been proven wrong in certain circles quite a few times. Also i see alot of comments on car tires being unrelated as they are different and by different you are talking about the modern day radial car tire not the old car tires that were made just like bicycle tires are now, or should i say that bike tires are built like car tires of old but with modern upgrades from yester year production car tires! YES wide rims ride different and yes wide rims ride softer given adjustment of pressure due to greater volume of air, and yes wide tires handle better during cornering not just at high rates of speed this is because as the tire width is increased at the bead squaring up the sidewall giving a different angle of approach as you are entering the corner, allowing for a greater tire contact patch. The contact patch is wider rather than narrower when following a strait line as well as when cornering. I have ridden old rims that were wider,skinny rims as they became the norm and finally have returned to wider rims years ago as they first came back into thought processes of modern time and i will not return to narrow rims unless they are discontinued in the future!! I own a ton of std 18-19mm also 20mm and now a days 23mm rims by HED and Velocity and I can tell you for certain that i can feal a HUGE difference not just a MINOR change in ride quality as well as handling, this may be more noticable as i am a SUPER CLYDE at 6'4" 272lbs and put a great deal of stress in my bikes and Certainly my tires!! In case you are wondering if i am just another lard ass i Body Build Primarily and Ride Bikes for Cardio, and have 34 waist with 54 Chest and i have Broken more parts on bikes in a single season than most of my road buddies by in a decade! LOL


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I like my wide rims, nothing rides better on a touring bike.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

BergMann said:


> What I don't get about some of the retro-grouching against the industry shift to wider rims, is why argue against technology that optimizes the performance of the 23mm, 200-220g clinchers most road riders are already riding?


I would buy 23mm wide rims if I were in the market for new wheels. But let's be honest, the bike industry makes a fraction of its revenue from people who upgrade only when their old gear wears out. I certainly appreciate people being honest about their personal experience with wider rims. It saves me from being disappointed with new $400-600 23mm wide wheels that ride exactly the same as my current 19mm wide wheels.


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## Carverbiker (Mar 6, 2013)

Handling is the biggest improvement. Feels more confident cornering aggressively but all else equal for me.


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