# Compact for Bay Area or suck it up with my double



## Hapsmo (Jun 11, 2010)

So I purchased my first bike with a double. Now I am looking to do some local climbs in the Bay Area. I put a 11-28 on the rear to see if I could get away with it but im finding That 8%+ its pretty tough at my current fitness/strength level. Im thinking of swapping to a compact till I can get my strength up. Or do you think I stick with the 11-28 and just tough it out. I am currently trying Hicks South side every other night to build my strength. I am 6' and 205 lbs if that matters. I would like to do all the local climbs. Performance has a sale on Ultegra compact for 260. Thinking of picking it up but just dont want to waste money if my double would work in the long run. Opinions would be help. Thanks.


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## tlclee (Jun 9, 2009)

I think you should tough it out and lose some weight. Your fitness level will build up in a few weeks and you will be look for a 11-25 cassette.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

Compact. Save your knees.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

tlclee said:


> I think you should tough it out and lose some weight. Your fitness level will build up in a few weeks and you will be look for a 11-25 cassette.


Do you seriously believe this? A few weeks of training for a new rider to push a 42/28? Bay Area has plenty of climbs that have 15%+ grades in sections and for a new rider a compact is the way to go.


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## Cliff O (Feb 10, 2004)

makeitso said:


> A few weeks of training for a new rider to push a 42/28?


Most all road doubles have had a 39t small ring for at least the last decade or so.

To the OP, I'd tough it out. A few months of riding will overcome your current limitations. Your current setup has a 37" low gear, which is pretty low.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

If you are having problems getting up 8% climbs and want to do all the climbs in the south bay, get the compact. There's a lot of stuff that's much steeper than 8% here.

Having a compact doesn't make you slow. Many of the fastest climbers in the area run compacts.


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## mike2g (Oct 10, 2006)

Hapsmo said:


> So I purchased my first bike with a double. Now I am looking to do some local climbs in the Bay Area. I put a 11-28 on the rear to see if I could get away with it but im finding That 8%+ its pretty tough at my current fitness/strength level. Im thinking of swapping to a compact till I can get my strength up. Or do you think I stick with the 11-28 and just tough it out. I am currently trying Hicks South side every other night to build my strength. I am 6' and 205 lbs if that matters. I would like to do all the local climbs. Performance has a sale on Ultegra compact for 260. Thinking of picking it up but just dont want to waste money if my double would work in the long run. Opinions would be help. Thanks.


Go for the compact. Going the same speed, it is preferable to spin rather than to mash. It's easier on your knees and you'll enjoy climbing more (which usually means you'll be more likely to do it).


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## Mad_Hun (Jul 3, 2007)

*Go with the compact*

I'd go with the compact and enjoy riding the Bay area now, instead of hoping for enough fitness gain to push a standard double up steep grades. I'm 6'4" and ~190lbs, live in NJ, where I get around with a 39 / 53 without a problem. I was in SF for the weekend and made a run up Tamalpais on a rented Specialized Roubaix with a compact. I got lost a couple times on the roads in / around Mill Valley and needlessly pushed up some fairly steep roads. By the time I was chugging up Tamalpais, I was happy to have the compact with which I happily spun away. I was even more happy when I climbed out of Saulsalito back up to the Golden Gate into a 20+ mph headwind. If I lived here, I'd certainly covert at least one of my bikes to a compact.


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## heythorp (Feb 17, 2005)

Mad_Hun said:


> I'm 6'4" and ~190lbs, live in NJ, where I get around with a 39 / 53 without a problem. .


Ah then clearly you are not riding the likes of iron bridge and fiddlers elbow. Plenty of really good stuff in NJ to test yourself on.(ok maybe you are riding these hills). 

Riding can be very different in the bay area compared to nj. Hills are longer without recover, but the longer hills are not as steep. Where in NJ there are a bunch of shorter steep stuff. Plenty of that here too, just that when people talk about climbs here they talk about stuff like tunitas, page mill, kings, old la honda.


To the OP.

34/27 is more than enough for me but on bad days or riding with my gf or just taking an easy day its nice to have. I could live out here with a 36x25 but you know what? I don't have to and thats the nice part. I push my self when I want to and I have an easy gear when I cant. We are not out there trying to get a contract. We are trying to get better and keep it fun. Suffering is fun, but no 100% of the time.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

If you want to tough it out, you should choose lower grade routes than Hicks Road while building up your strength and endurance.

However, there's a good chance that ultimately you would be better off with a compact. I ride 50/34 x 12-25 almost all of the time, and that's covered everything for me including all the south bay hills and many of the long, hard climbs in the Sierras. I've been up Bohlman/On-Orbit in those gears, though prefer in that case to swap out the wheel for one with a 12-27 cassette. I can also hang with fast group rides, and do fast descents. I have a spare 11-25 which I can break out if I need a higher top end gear but I've never used it. The gearing gap between the two front chain-rings has not been an issue for me at all, and I don't notice it.

I also have a bike set up as a standard double 53/39 typically with a 12-23 cassette. This gets occasionally used for flatter or rolling training rides, or in bad weather, or just as a back-up. I've taken it up Page Mill Road with that gearing. It was possible but it was certainly not pretty nor fast. If used to be set up as a triple which seemed perfect for a first bike, but I out grew that crutch within my first year of riding.


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## MTBAlex (Jul 24, 2006)

Hey OP,

I live probably in the south bay just like you. I was on a 39 x 27 for the longest time, but recently decided to get the compact and get 34 x27. When I was on my 39 ring, I was the slowest up the hill, pushing the hardest and most likely to get a leg crap. With the normal chainring, you are using so much leg strength thatyou will tire out your muscles quicker and lead to cramps. With the climbs in the south bay, it is better to get the compact chainring. Ever since, I got my compact that was no longer a problem. 

Also, it is better on your knees and this is one of the main reason i changed. I want to keep riding for a while and this helps with that goal.

By the way, i'm in Campbell. I was thinking of hitting hicks from the los gatos side one of these days. let me know if you are interested.


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## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

Compact. At 205 there's plenty of stuff round here that's a pain for you to climb and a compact won't make it too easy. When I got to 190 with a 34/28 is when I started to take some climbs a little too easy and I prefered upshifting. Did Page Mill yesterday and sure was glad to have 34/28 for some parts even though you don't use it for most of the climb.

The downside (some might see this as a positive) is that you can't crosschain as much Schleck style compared with 53/39.


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## parity (Feb 28, 2006)

A compact crank gives you the most options. An 50x34 11-23 is roughly the same as a 53x39 12-25. In fact the 50-11 is a bigger gear then a 53-12. So you can switch out your cogs depending on the type of riding you are doing. I use a 50x34 11-26 and find this the perfect combo for myself. I prefer to spin my legs then mash up a climb. Riding with my power meter I can see I can generate a higher average watts if I can keep to a higher cadence over a longer period of time. But if you prefer to mash, then you may feel more comfortable at a lower cadence. Looking down the road, if you plan on doing any kind of centuries that have lots of climbing ( > 10,000 ft) having a compact will be useful. Another plus is with a compact is you can ride around in the big ring a lot more over small hills without needing to shift to the small ring. 

The shifting on a compact takes some getting use to and requires a few more shifts in the back when going from the big ring to the small ring in the front.


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

compact.


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## Mtn2RoadConvert (Aug 28, 2006)

*Compact all the way*

I live in the area and have climbed Hicks on numerous occasions. For me a compact crank has improved my climbing and helped me concentrate on keeping a higher cadence. For me the ideal gearing is 50/34 crank paired with an 11-26 cassette. For my level of riding the 34x26 is perfect for just about any climbs (okay, Bohlman-On Orbit the possible exception) while the 50x11 gives me plenty of top end.


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## Hapsmo (Jun 11, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. Lots of good info and opinions. I am leaning toward a compact, I think it would help me have fun getting to the top of the climbs without stopping. After more time in the saddle climbing I can always put the double back on.Before I order the cranks I am going to try some longer 4-8% grades to see how I do on those. I used Hicks because after work I can make it there in 30 min from my house. It is real steep in sections, and with my double I'm stopping every few hundred feet at best to rest on those portions of the hill. Thanks for the offer on the rides, after I get my fitness up I will be taken up those offers.


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## CHL (Jun 24, 2005)

Hapsmo:

Go with the compact setup. You'll find yourself fresher since you won't have to produce a large amount of power to spin your pedals. You may find that you could actually climb faster pedalling at a higher cadence. As others have mentioned, save your knees (take it from one whose knees are shot).

Hicks Road is not the type of road a beginning cyclist should use. First off, it's a sustain 12-14% from New Almaden and a sustain 16-19% from the Camden Avenue. If you have to put your foot down, you don't have much time until you fall sideways. 

Second, the descent off the top of Hicks is very dangerous. The pavement is poor and it's easy to lose control of your speed. If Hicks is only 30 minues from you, try Bailey. Otherwise, on the weekend, give Old La Honda, Kings Moutain, Pagemill or Hwy 9 a try. If you want the steepness of Hicks without the length then try Joaquinn or or Los Trancos which will lead to Ramona and then on to Spanish Trail.

CHL


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## smw (Mar 7, 2006)

dwgranda said:


> The downside (some might see this as a positive) is that you can't crosschain as much Schleck style compared with 53/39.



Actually cross chaining is much more common on a compact.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2004)

Compact. But if you feel it will be too low, you can always go with a 50x36 instead of the 34. My bike came with a 36 compact so i didnt know any better and i have stuff with it.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

I expect you'll be happier with a compact. The vast majority of riders don't need gears as big as you get on a bike with a standard crank, and the lower gears with a compact are a huge help in the hills.


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## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

-Moved to more obvious reply position. Sorry about that.


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## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

What do you mean more common? What I meant to say is that on a compact there are less usable gears when in the small chainring as you get to smaller cogs if you don't want to rub against the big ring. At least this is true with my SRAM setup for standard vs compact.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I think "more common" meant more need to cross-chain because of the larger delta between the chain-rings. On Shimano I can use the trim feature (on either chain ring) to reduce rub. Typically all but the fully cross-chained combinations are then usable, but I'd still generally prefer to front shift rather than cross-chain as far as the penultimate cog.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

*42t?*

Interesting that it has a 42t chainring on the front. A cheap alternative/test would be to get a 38t chainring (smallest that a 130 pattern will run) and try that out. It will drop a few inches on your lowest gear and only run about $30 or $35 bucks. FSA and Truvativ make them in that bolt pattern. I put on on in the winter or if I'm going to the mountains. 38x28 is a pretty low gear but it that doesn't work, get the compact to see you through the next year or two, then sell it and put your standard double with the 38-53 back on.


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## sometimerider (Sep 21, 2007)

ukbloke said:


> I think "more common" meant more need to cross-chain because of the larger delta between the chain-rings. On Shimano I can use the trim feature (on either chain ring) to reduce rub.


Trim helps eliminate chain rub on the front der. cage. It does nothing to prevent the chain rubbing on the large ring when in the small one.



> Typically all but the fully cross-chained combinations are then usable, but I'd still generally prefer to front shift rather than cross-chain as far as the penultimate cog.


Definitely.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

sometimerider said:


> It does nothing to prevent the chain rubbing on the large ring when in the small one.


Interesting, I've never noticed that as an issue on my bike. Perhaps the chain-line or chain-stay length is minimizing that effect for me. I'll try to remember to put the bike on the stand and see if I can reproduce it.


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## sometimerider (Sep 21, 2007)

ukbloke said:


> Interesting, I've never noticed that as an issue on my bike. Perhaps the chain-line or chain-stay length is minimizing that effect for me. I'll try to remember to put the bike on the stand and see if I can reproduce it.


Whether it occurs or not depends on a number of factors:

Length of chainstays (shorter stays make rub more likely).
Relative diameter of rings (larger jump makes rub more likely).
Spacing between the rings (tighter spacing is worse).
Lateral alignment of large ring relative to small cog.


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## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

So I guess maybe one can say that it's more likely with a compact but wether it's noticed depends on your frame geometry (I assumed #3,#4 stay are the same for the same manufacturer)? The ratio of the diameters of the rings is 1.47 for a compact and 1.36 for standard.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Number 4 is also a function of frame. The component manufacturer may specify the optimum chain-line but there can be variation due to relative alignment of BB and drop-outs, and also positioning of cassette on the free-hub. The amount of lateral play in the chain might have an effect too, which I suppose might vary between derailleurs.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

For you, compact is the best. It has very little downside. As you gain strength and technique, you can put your 11-25 back. That's a much smoother cog for a road bike.

The only real downside to compact is for more experienced riders who like to spin a lot at 25+ mph, a standard crank feels a tad smoother and more efficient.

fc


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Compact = flexibility. Because if you're on one, you could still ride in a big gear on the hills and simulate the suffering you'd get with standard double (39xWhatever) gearing, but you still have some nice low bailout gears if'n you ever need 'em.

With a standard double, you're stuck suffericating. The upside is the bragging rights, but that's about it. 

Another nice thing about compacts is that you can get low gears without resorting to an 11-28 cassette, which has some large jumps in it that not everyone digs.
.


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## WMBigs (Aug 29, 2009)

Nothing wrong with the compact. It will help you get in shape if you get some miles in. Give your self some recovery time after doing Hicks. I remember it as great one way, and a monster from the other side. I get to do the Beartooth Pass in Montana, Wyoming this weekend. 10,000' +. After this, I'll put the 36 tooth on my compact and get a little more flexibility from my drive train. Starting to feel strong again.


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## jmilliron (Mar 5, 2008)

I'm not a weak climber but am going from 53/39x12-27 to 50/34x11-25. Get a little more range on both ends. Gives me the flexibility to toss a 11-28 on there if I want to do a double century with a lot of climbing. And, it's lighter.



francois said:


> The only real downside to compact is for more experienced riders who like to spin a lot at 25+ mph, a standard crank feels a tad smoother and more efficient.


That sucks to hear. Hopefully it won't bug me too much.


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## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

How often you spend at 25+? If you're doing this in a group or on a TT I can see what Francois is saying. If you're soloing 25+ for long periods of time you already know what's what. Most of the time I'm going 25+ it's because I'm going downhill and then the issue is topping out my spinning speed. As was said previously 50x11 is higher than 53x12 so IMO it's nicer with the compact.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Okay, I may post this in a more appropriate forum later but since we're already talking about climbing in the Bay Area... I ride a compact and did El Toyonal 3 times today and I did use my 27 today towards the end, but feel if I really wanted to gut it out it wouldn't have been too hard to use a 25... right now I have a 12-27 and I'm considering 11-25... what would I really gain from this other than a little more top end?


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## heythorp (Feb 17, 2005)

I was pretty happy to have the 34/27 yesterday to do the ramp at the top of Diabolo. I went up it pretty moderately from the south gate in 1:05. I was planning to do both the south and north gate so I was not out to set any PR, but that ramp after an hour in the saddle is definitely a vein popper.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback, North Gate to the top is my next planned ride, I'll have to see how it feels!


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## EBrider (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm switching to a compact to better ride steep grades later into rides. I figure the first 50 miles I can climb anything, but once you get later into long rides and hit steep (15%) grades, it is very difficult. 

With a 50x11, you are at least as big as Junior gear restrictions. If you can spin that at a cadence of 100, you would be going 57 km/hr, or 53 km/hr with a 12 on the back. If you only want to spin at 90, you are still going 51 km/hr with an 11, or 47 km/hr with a 12. 47 km/hr works out to be around 28 mph, which is plenty fast for most of us unless you are trying to accelerate down hill. If 90 rpm is too fast, you probably need to work on cadence as well as hill climbing. 

I would rather have the added climbing ability and figure I'm unlikely to hop in a paceline at over 30 mph.


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## poff (Jul 21, 2007)

Did you do just El Toyonal or ET with Lomas Contadas? I can pull Lomas in 39X24 twice but third time I always get into 39X27. On Mt. Diablo I never felt I needed gears lower than 39X24 which I only use on the short stretch to the parking lot. I usually go up NG down SG and up SG to Summit to the top. And I am a terrible climber.


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## zender (Jun 20, 2009)

If you're trying to lose weight, I don't think spinning a big gear at 40rpm up a steep grade is the optimum way to do it; go compact and spin well below your AT on flatter terrain.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

EBrider, thanks for the numbers, that helps. Guess I'll need a reason to go fast before I switch.

poff, First time I did Lomas Contadas via Vista del Orinda / Las Piedras, second time I did Lomas Contadas via Alta Vista, third time I only did El Toyonal to Wildcat Canyon because I wanted to see what the road closure was all about and I was probably getting pretty tired by that point anyway. But I have a compact, don't think it would have been pretty for me with a 39 chainring. Thanks for the advice on the Diablo route, I should probably do that.

I've been working on trying to get the cadence up since I finally installed the sensor, and it is, albeit slowly...

Edit: Nashbar coupon suckered me into ordering the 11-25 cassette today, I guess it'll sit on a shelf for a long time.


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## Hapsmo (Jun 11, 2010)

So I tried Mt Hamilton this weekend with my double. Avg. 60 rpm with the 28 on the rear. Made it all the way from friends house in Freemont to the top for my first time. What a great time. I think I will pick up a compact since they are on sale and I love climbing. I cant really see a down side. After I lose some weight I may put the double back on. Thanks again for the opinions.


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## Mtn2RoadConvert (Aug 28, 2006)

Good to hear you enjoyed the climb up to the top of Hamilton. The grade is very manageable with a standard. If you do Sierra Road, not far away, you'll appreciate having the compact on the bike where some sections can be 12% grade or more.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Hapsmo said:


> So I tried Mt Hamilton this weekend with my double. Avg. 60 rpm with the 28 on the rear. Made it all the way from friends house in Freemont to the top for my first time. What a great time. I think I will pick up a compact since they are on sale and I love climbing. I cant really see a down side. After I lose some weight I may put the double back on. Thanks again for the opinions.


I'm late to this thread, but what I don't understand is why you are basing your gear choice on riding Hicks? You're going to spend money and change your bike because of a one-mile 12% grade that you could and should avoid? Plus, you are wrecking your knees in the process? That doesn't compute for me. 

Leave your bike alone and go out and do some more reasonable climbs (like Hamilton) to build your strength. And do crunches, too. A lot of climbing strength comes from your core, especially on the really steep stuff like Hicks.

A better choice for you in the same area is what we unofficially call "IBM Hill." You ride up to the IBM site from Harry Rd (at the end of Camden), then down Bernal Road on the other side, until you bottom out at the Santa Theresa golf course. Turn around and go back the way you came. It's a very good workout and the perfect ride to build your climbing strength. You may get hassled by the guard at the gate if you do this on a weekday, but on the weekend, they don't seem to care.


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## Hapsmo (Jun 11, 2010)

mohair_chair said:


> I'm late to this thread, but what I don't understand is why you are basing your gear choice on riding Hicks? You're going to spend money and change your bike because of a one-mile 12% grade that you could and should avoid? Plus, you are wrecking your knees in the process? That doesn't compute for me.
> 
> Leave your bike alone and go out and do some more reasonable climbs (like Hamilton) to build your strength. And do crunches, too. A lot of climbing strength comes from your core, especially on the really steep stuff like Hicks.
> 
> A better choice for you in the same area is what we unofficially call "IBM Hill." You ride up to the IBM site from Harry Rd (at the end of Camden), then down Bernal Road on the other side, until you bottom out at the Santa Theresa golf course. Turn around and go back the way you came. It's a very good workout and the perfect ride to build your climbing strength. You may get hassled by the guard at the gate if you do this on a weekday, but on the weekend, they don't seem to care.


It was more that Hicks was close and I was looking for a climb close to the house to work on. I am also a noob at bikes in general and climbing specifically. So I can understand why it doesn't compute. Another member told me about the IBM hill and I have managed doing that on both sides.


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