# Gravel Racing



## Rashadabd

The old Quiver Killers thread seems to be having some problems. I am finally at peace with my road fleet and now looking to make some progress on my gravel grinder project/dream. I flirted with adding a TT bike or CX bike, but this is probably what I would enjoy more and get a lot more use out of. I have whittled my bikes to check out list down to about 5 potential contenders. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on any of these, especially if you have ridden them in a gravel event:

1) 2018 Specialized Diverge Sport or Comp

2.) 2018 Salsa Warbird Apex or Ultegra 

3.) Niner RLT RDO w 105

4. 2018 Norco Search XR Carbon

5. Open U.P. 

As it stands right now, I like the Warbird and Diverge most, all things considered. They both check all of my boxes and offer a reasonably priced lineup with different component options plus look good. Both bikes have reviewed well and/or been used by scores of people in countless gravel events. Any thoughts?

For your viewing enjoyment (or at least for mine):






Gravel Mob 2017 – Peloton Presents – Gravel Mob


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## Rashadabd




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## Marc

Sidenote...over on BikeForums, we have a very active gravel board-with many people who built bikes off those exact framesets.

https://www.bikeforums.net/cyclocross-gravelbiking-recreational/


Since you're wanting to race, a strong word of caution...those races are grueling and you'll need a TT bag for nutrition and either a camelback or fork with bottle mounts. I mean it. I DNF'd on GravelWorld's 150, this year, due to poor nutrition planning and a murderous course....my roadie mate who finished, in total went through about 12 gels, a bag of jerky, plus water bottle refills at oasis stops and stuff from authorized roadside stands. Some races are very particular about bringing everything you need the whole race yourself or what you can find in towns--which means 8 hours worth of food.

A few things I remember from seeing build logs on BF.net:

-The RLT RDO, Open UP and Warbird has CX-style water bosses...it you want to run 2 water bottles you'll need to spacer the ST one as the bosses are low for CX shouldering....OTOH thanks to the low CX style mounts, the frame is better suited for a TT bag for nutrition
-Only the Norco and the RLT RDO, non have cage provisions on the fork--so you'll need to get original on the others.

The big thing is tire clearance. And tire choice and pressure are determined by what kind of Gravel you expect to meet. All the bikes on your shortlist top out at around 700Cx40mm, which will suit you on most dry surfaces short of pea-gravel. To go bigger with any of your shortlist bikes, you'll need to do a 650B retrofit--which with disc brakes is easy....and there are several good 650B tires.

Another raced-hardened bike I'd add to your list:

Trail Donkey - Rodeo Adventure Labs, LLCRodeo Adventure Labs, LLC

I did a build log of my beast over on BF BTW, if you want more build ideas:

https://www.bikeforums.net/cyclocro...r-build-country-road-gravel-assault-bike.html


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## Rashadabd

Thank you man. This is precisely the kind of information I am looking for. I will try to check out the other thread soon. I sincerely appreciate it. I actually completely forgot about the Trail Donkey 2.0 to be honest. We talked about it in the old Quiver Killers thread and I liked it, but it got lost in the shuffle. I will take another look. Thank you again for all of this info, very helpful.


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## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> Thank you man. This is precisely the kind of information I am looking for. I will try to check out the other thread soon. I sincerely appreciate it. I actually completely forgot about the Trail Donkey 2.0 to be honest. We talked about it in the old Quiver Killers thread and I liked it, but it got lost in the shuffle. I will take another look. Thank you again for all of this info, very helpful.


Oh and one other bit of food for thought...

If you look at say the Salsa Warbird Ultegra page....they show a hard-man on a muddy day racing... There's consequences for that kind of ugly messy riding.

Bottom bracket overhaul.


One of my mates with his all-weather gravel racing/riding habit racked up $300 worth of parts and labor in BB overhauls this last season due to mud infiltration of modern BBs. They just don't seal as well as good cartridge units of yore. In addition to ride/race entry-fees and travel/nutrition. 

He knew someone who suffered through Land&Run 100:

The 2017 Land Run 100 Experience - Stillwater, Oklahoma - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience

Which was just a fustercluck, 25% of registrants didn't start, of those that started 90% of the field DNF'd. Several people crashed due to hypothermia and simply being unable to steer anymore. One gal fighting to win ended up second in the women's--hypthermia mentally got to her and she got lost in the finish-town.


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## Rashadabd

Marc said:


> Oh and one other bit of food for thought...
> 
> If you look at say the Salsa Warbird Ultegra page....they show a hard-man on a muddy day racing... There's consequences for that kind of ugly messy riding.
> 
> Bottom bracket overhaul.
> 
> 
> One of my mates with his all-weather gravel racing/riding habit racked up $300 worth of parts and labor in BB overhauls this last season due to mud infiltration of modern BBs. They just don't seal as well as good cartridge units of yore. In addition to ride/race entry-fees and travel/nutrition.
> 
> He knew someone who suffered through Land&Run 100:
> 
> The 2017 Land Run 100 Experience - Stillwater, Oklahoma - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience
> 
> Which was just a fustercluck, 25% of registrants didn't start, of those that started 90% of the field DNF'd. Several people crashed due to hypothermia and simply being unable to steer anymore. One gal fighting to win ended up second in the women's--hypthermia mentally got to her and she got lost in the finish-town.


Wow, I have heard some horror stories myself. My plan is to participate in races like Georgia’s gravel series (Red Clay Ramble, etc.), nothing on the level of the major gravel events, but still tough rides. I am not excited about the havoc gravel races wreak on bikes, but CX is no walk in the park for a bike either and it’s probably the other thing I would seriously consider at this point, so it is what it is. I’ll deal with it since not every day will be a race day as many days will probably just involve me cruising on light singletrack, etc. 

Chain Buster Racing


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## Rashadabd

Nice build btw! It looks like it’s ready for just about anything you throw at it.


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## Rashadabd

The Diverge might be moving into pole position as I take a closer look at tire and wheel options + storage, etc. I probably will just go with the Sport Carbon and upgrade/customize a few things to finish it off if I go that route. 


https://www.specialized.com/us/en/mens-diverge-sport/p/152240?color=239522-152240

https://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/revi...-diverge-comp-review.html#sEkcOpGekBwQ6mhe.97


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## Rashadabd

There's also this, but this price does not include the fork and is frameset only. I've seen one in person at Podium Multisport and it's an amazing looking bike though. They can do slightly better than MSRP too. The total price probably ends up being a bit too steep for me with most builds though. 

https://shop.litespeed.com/collections/titanium-gravel/products/litespeed-gravel-700c


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## Srode

I've ridden the RLT9 (aluminum version of the RDO) at DK200 twice now, and it did great even bombing the hills with no to very little braking. Also on a few gravel rides around here with 100 feet of climbing / mile on average. I was thinking about upgrading the frame to the RDO this year but really can't justify the cost for 1lb of weight probably. Either would do very well for you on any gravel course you want to ride I'm sure and both are designed to be gravel bikes, not cross bikes. I've also used the RLT9 as a back up bike and my winter / wet weather bike - works well for all that too. I don't have any experience with the others, so can't comment on them.


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## Rashadabd

Srode said:


> I've ridden the RLT9 (aluminum version of the RDO) at DK200 twice now, and it did great even bombing the hills with no to very little braking. Also on a few gravel rides around here with 100 feet of climbing / mile on average. I was thinking about upgrading the frame to the RDO this year but really can't justify the cost for 1lb of weight probably. Either would do very well for you on any gravel course you want to ride I'm sure and both are designed to be gravel bikes, not cross bikes. I've also used the RLT9 as a back up bike and my winter / wet weather bike - works well for all that too. I don't have any experience with the others, so can't comment on them.


Thanks man, I definitely looked at those but wasn't sure about the ride quality and whether they were race oriented enough. I tested a Fuji Jari, which is a similar bike about a year or so ago and I actually felt pretty good on it. I will keep an eye on prices and try to stay open, but right now, I kind of like the price point and the versatility of the Diverge Sport.


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## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> There's also this, but this price does not include the fork and is frameset only. I've seen one in person at Podium Multisport and it's an amazing looking bike though. They can do slightly better than MSRP too. The total price probably ends up being a bit too steep for me with most builds though.
> 
> https://shop.litespeed.com/collections/titanium-gravel/products/litespeed-gravel-700c


If you want Titanium, There's a fellow over on BF in the Gravel boards that has that bike. Nice thing, Ti cleans after a dusty or muddy ride faster with less effort.

Priced lower, variably depending on sales, is Lynskey. Also Carver, like above. Granted doing a build you'll pay more money, OTOH you'll get exactly what you want--also lots of holiday sales on parts this time of year. The Diverge at least comes with lower gearing than the standard roadie compact.

The joy and curse....tons of options.


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## Srode

Rashadabd said:


> Thanks man, I definitely looked at those but wasn't sure about the ride quality and whether they were race oriented enough.


Put 40mm tubeless tires on most any bike and it's going to ride smoothly. As far as race oriented - On gravel (at least for me) fast is slow. Meaning I want stability over quick steering - stability is what you want on high speed descents when the road is rough, and lots of other gravel situations. A bike that feels less racey on the road might IS what you want on gravel. 

Not sure how you would go about trying them out this way, but if you can I would definitely try them on gravel vs road so you can see how they handle in the world you plan to use them.


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## biscut

Rashadabd said:


> The old Quiver Killers thread seems to be having some problems. I am finally at peace with my road fleet and now looking to make some progress on my gravel grinder project/dream. I flirted with adding a TT bike or CX bike, but this is probably what I would enjoy more and get a lot more use out of. I have whittled my bikes to check out list down to about 5 potential contenders. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on any of these, especially if you have ridden them in a gravel event:
> 
> 1) 2018 Specialized Diverge Sport or Comp
> 
> 2.) 2018 Salsa Warbird Apex or Ultegra
> 
> 3.) Niner RLT RDO w 105
> 
> 4. 2018 Norco Search XR Carbon
> 
> 5. Open U.P.
> 
> As it stands right now, I like the Warbird and Diverge most, all things considered. They both check all of my boxes and offer a reasonably priced lineup with different component options plus look good. Both bikes have reviewed well and/or been used by scores of people in countless gravel events. Any thoughts?
> 
> For your viewing enjoyment (or at least for mine):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gravel Mob 2017 – Peloton Presents – Gravel Mob


Hard to beat a Santa Cruz Stigmata or a Pivot if your going to be racing.


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## Rashadabd

biscut said:


> Hard to beat a Santa Cruz Stigmata or a Pivot if your going to be racing.


Those are great bikes that have performed well in events like the Giro Grinduro, but their tire clearance limitations can be an issue on muddier and tougher courses as discussed above.


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## Jay Strongbow

Srode said:


> Put 40mm tubeless tires on most any bike and it's going to ride smoothly. As far as race oriented - On gravel (at least for me) fast is slow. Meaning I want stability over quick steering - stability is what you want on high speed descents when the road is rough, and lots of other gravel situations. A bike that feels less racey on the road might not be what you find you want on gravel.


Absolutely for sure. Although I think the last sentence isn't what was intended to say. Less racy on the road IS what you find you want on gravel. Any bike that feels 'racy' on a road test ride is going to be a disadvantage for longer gravel rides/races. Stable is fast on gravel.


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## 11spd

Rash...thing you want to consider and test if possible if you go in the direction of the Diverge is whether you want the future shock or not. Opinions are divided for the simple reason that wider tires ridden at lower pressure remove much of the benefit of the future shock and of course a non future shock Diverge has a bit more control out of the saddle in particular. So you may want to consider a '17 Diverge without future shock versus a '18 model. Honestly, if you have ridden an Al Diverge with no future shock but with suitably wide tires at low pressure to shred gravel, bang for buck this is the sweet spot for the weekend warrior. Of course you can go carbon but you pay about $1K more for a handful of gram savings with very little difference in ride quality if you are on larger volume tires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7me5U83ujk


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## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Rash...thing you want to consider and test if possible if you go in the direction of the Diverge is whether you want the future shock or not. Opinions are divided for the simple reason that wider tires ridden at lower pressure remove much of the benefit of the future shock and of course a non future shock Diverge has a bit more control out of the saddle in particular. So you may want to consider a '17 Diverge without future shock versus a '18 model. Honestly, if you have ridden an Al Diverge with no future shock but with suitably wide tires at low pressure to shred gravel, bang for buck this is the sweet spot for the weekend warrior. Of course you can go carbon but you pay about $1K more for a handful of gram savings with very little difference in ride quality if you are on larger volume tires.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7me5U83ujk


Thanks man, I tested it on the Roubaix when they first came out and don't mind it at all to be honest. It was a little weird for the first 5 minutes or so, but not a problem at all after that. I openly concede that it can legitimately be viewed as overkill, but I think it makes a bit more sense on the Diverge than it does on the Roubaix as well and the pros outweigh the cons for me here. I get what you are saying though. Thanks again.


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## Rashadabd

More footage from some of this year's big races to follow:


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## Rashadabd




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## Rashadabd




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## Rashadabd




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## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> Thanks man, I tested it on the Roubaix when they first came out and don't mind it at all to be honest. It was a little weird for the first 5 minutes or so, but not a problem at all after that. I openly concede that it can legitimately be viewed as overkill, but I think it makes a bit more sense on the Diverge than it does on the Roubaix as well and the pros outweigh the cons for me here. I get what you are saying though. Thanks again.


Cool. Wanted to give you both sides. I believe I may fall in your camp. No future shock on road but future shock may indeed be preferred for gravel and single track. You could probably tell that Durianrider was on the fence as well.

There is a real compelling video about which bike is fastest on the cobbles from the GCN which is must see which btw comports with my experience as well. I was fastest on my 29'er versus a dedicated gravel bike on the rough stuff. I built a rigid Ti 29er 1x9. Loved the bike btw and preferred it to a dropbar bike on the rough stuff.
Check it out....GCN boys rock da haus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvO74sZxVs4


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## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Cool. Wanted to give you both sides. I believe I may fall in your camp. No future shock on road but future shock may indeed be preferred for gravel and single track. You could probably tell that Durianrider was on the fence as well.
> 
> There is a real compelling video about which bike is fastest on the cobbles from the GCN which is must see which btw comports with my experience as well. I was fastest on my 29'er versus a dedicated gravel bike on the rough stuff. I built a rigid Ti 29er 1x9. Loved the bike btw and preferred it to a dropbar bike on the rough stuff.
> Check it out....luv the GCN boys:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvO74sZxVs4


I saw that and almost went with a XC MTB because of it, lol. There's also a number of heavy hitters in the gravel racing world that regularly win and podium on HT MTBs. I am mostly in it for the fun though, so the Diverge with high volume wheels and tires is more than fine for me. I want to be competitive, but I am mostly hoping to just have a blast. I love me some GCN.....


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## Rashadabd

You will see Jeremiah Bishop doing it here:

Dirty BikenetiCrit Combines Cyclocross, Gravel and Criterium Racing, Attracts Top Talent and Costumes - Cyclocross Magazine - Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos

And a guy named Jeff Clayton doing it here:


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## biscut

Rashadabd said:


> Those are great bikes that have performed well in events like the Giro Grinduro, but their tire clearance limitations can be an issue on muddier and tougher courses as discussed above.


I’m in the camp that if 40’s don’t do it it’s mountain bike time.


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## Rashadabd

biscut said:


> I’m in the camp that if 40’s don’t do it it’s mountain bike time.


Fair enough.


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## Rashadabd

Beach racing appears to be gravel racing, XC MTB, and cyclocross' crazy multicultural cousin. 

The European Championship


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## Rashadabd

An interesting read about the discipline and surviving a tough race, written by a fierce competitor:

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/08/pirate-champion-alison-tetrick-winning-gravel-worlds/


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## crit_boy

Don't know whether you have decided, but I would recommend chain rings smaller than road compact. 

I rolled a 34/50 with a 11/28 in DK200. However, that combo was too much. If I DK again, it will be with smaller gears. Something around a 34/46 and an 11/32. 

Gravel average speeds are several mph less than on the road. One really doesn't need gearing for maintaining speeds of 25-30 mph on gravel. 

For a reference, I usually average 16-17 mph on gravel with the same guys that I average 19-20 with on the road.


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## Rashadabd

crit_boy said:


> Don't know whether you have decided, but I would recommend chain rings smaller than road compact.
> 
> I rolled a 34/50 with a 11/28 in DK200. However, that combo was too much. If I DK again, it will be with smaller gears. Something around a 34/46 and an 11/32.
> 
> Gravel average speeds are several mph less than on the road. One really doesn't need gearing for maintaining speeds of 25-30 mph on gravel.
> 
> For a reference, I usually average 16-17 mph on gravel with the same guys that I average 19-20 with on the road.


Good stuff, thanks! The Diverge comes with 32/48 in the front and 11/34 in the rear, which should be a solid place to start.


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## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> Good stuff, thanks! The Diverge comes with 32/48 in the front and 11/34 in the rear, which should be a solid place to start.




I roll a 46/30 and an 11-32. Going lower than that gets problematic. In part because of FD support, in part because BB shell width standards, in part because of cranks, and in part because of gear spacing. I have an 11-32 and lots of the time the spacing is much wider than I like--with Goldilocks and imperfect cadence.

A 30/32 (or lower equivalent) gearing is a blessing on pea gravel 10%+ gradients. Getting 46/30 there aren't many options. IRD makes one, Sugino makes one, White makes one. FSA makes one.


I don't know Specialized's BBs...but make sure if you get it you're not trapped by Bizzarro Proprietary BB standards that no one other than the OEM supplies.


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## Rashadabd

Marc said:


> I roll a 46/30 and an 11-32. Going lower than that gets problematic. In part because of FD support, in part because BB shell width standards, in part because of cranks, and in part because of gear spacing. I have an 11-32 and lots of the time the spacing is much wider than I like--with Goldilocks and imperfect cadence.
> 
> A 30/32 (or lower equivalent) gearing is a blessing on pea gravel 10%+ gradients. Getting 46/30 there aren't many options. IRD makes one, Sugino makes one, White makes one. FSA makes one.
> 
> 
> I don't know Specialized's BBs...but make sure if you get it you're not trapped by Bizzarro Proprietary BB standards that no one other than the OEM supplies.


Will do, thanks.


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## Srode

Jay Strongbow said:


> Although I think the last sentence isn't what was intended to say. Less racy on the road IS what you find you want on gravel.


Yep, my bad - not enough coffee before i responded! I'll fix it.


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## Srode

Rashadabd said:


> Good stuff, thanks! The Diverge comes with 32/48 in the front and 11/34 in the rear, which should be a solid place to start.


That should be plenty - the problem with gravel and steep climbs like DK has is you have to stay seated or you lose traction, no standing grinding up a hill at a 40 cadence. I found 50/34 and 11/32 was a good choice out there.

If you are worried about price trying to shave a few dollars off I would not be looking at the RDO but instead the regular RLT9. You can save a grand and only gain about a pound in bike weight which in the scheme of things is trivial. I'd be with 40mm tires runing 40psi you won't feel much of a ride difference either.


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## Rashadabd

Srode said:


> That should be plenty - the problem with gravel and steep climbs like DK has is you have to stay seated or you lose traction, no standing grinding up a hill at a 40 cadence. I found 50/34 and 11/32 was a good choice out there.
> 
> If you are worried about price trying to shave a few dollars off I would not be looking at the RDO but instead the regular RLT9. You can save a grand and only gain about a pound in bike weight which in the scheme of things is trivial. I'd be with 40mm tires runing 40psi you won't feel much of a ride difference either.


Thanks, I will take another look at the RLT 9 as well.


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## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> Thanks, I will take another look at the RLT 9 as well.


If you want a Niner...make up your mind, Niner Corporate just declared C11:

Niner files for bankruptcy ahead of planned sale | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News



BRAIN said:


> DENVER, Colo. (BRAIN) — Niner Inc. filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Monday ahead of a planned acquisition by a Colorado investor group.
> 
> The company had announced Nov. 22 that a group had agreed to purchase the company, not mentioning the planned Chapter 11 filing or naming the investors.
> 
> On Tuesday, it filed a petition with the Colorado Bankruptcy Court in Denver listing assets of $9.8 million and liabilities of $7.9 million.
> In an interview Wednesday, company co-founder and president Chris Sugai said the Chapter 11 filing was the most efficient way to sell the company to the group, which is called Columbia Basin Partners.


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## ddave12000

You didn’t mention a budget but based on the bike options, this is probably too much, but what about a 3T Enduro? Plenty of tire clearance and also can run 650B tires. 

I’ve been thinking a lot about one of these lately. Possibly to be main road and gravel bike with two wheelset options. I’d want a 2x drivetrain which would mean I’d be limited to Di2 or no 650B (there isn’t room for an etap battery). I did DK200 on my Superx last year with force 1x and my biggest complaint was that as I got tired in the last 1/2 of the race the gear jumps really started to get to me. I always felt like I was pedaling too fast or too slow. There’s something to be said for consistenct cadence in a road race, even a gravel one.


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## Srode

Marc said:


> If you want a Niner...make up your mind, Niner Corporate just declared C11:
> 
> Niner files for bankruptcy ahead of planned sale | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


The brand and bikes will be around for a long time, that's just financial shenanigans to facilitate the sale of the company and brand, part of consolidation of the industry.


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## Rashadabd

Marc said:


> If you want a Niner...make up your mind, Niner Corporate just declared C11:
> 
> Niner files for bankruptcy ahead of planned sale | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


I am not in a rush and probably won’t officially make up my mind until I do some test rides. Diverge is still in the lead on paper. Bummer about Niner.


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## Rashadabd

Orbea Terra review:

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/orbea-terra-review/


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## marathonrunner

Another bike you could consider is the BMC Gran Fondo 02 disc. Stock is 50/34 11-32 gearing.

I've personally ridden the diverge and the warbird and the RLT9. All great bikes. They all felt too upright, slow and sluggish for me, but I ride in a pretty slammed stretched out position on my Madone.

I went with a BMC GF 02 disc 105 because it was cheaper. Clearance is a little worse than the warbird and diverge, only fits 38mm+mud but I use 35mm tubeless for DK, ragnarok 105, Miesville 56 and other midwest races. 40's feel slow and sluggish to me. If I ride stuff that requires more than 38's I'll use my mtb instead. 

I would really like electronic shifting and hydro brakes on it, but $$$.


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## Rashadabd

ddave12000 said:


> You didn’t mention a budget but based on the bike options, this is probably too much, but what about a 3T Enduro? Plenty of tire clearance and also can run 650B tires.
> 
> I’ve been thinking a lot about one of these lately. Possibly to be main road and gravel bike with two wheelset options. I’d want a 2x drivetrain which would mean I’d be limited to Di2 or no 650B (there isn’t room for an etap battery). I did DK200 on my Superx last year with force 1x and my biggest complaint was that as I got tired in the last 1/2 of the race the gear jumps really started to get to me. I always felt like I was pedaling too fast or too slow. There’s something to be said for consistenct cadence in a road race, even a gravel one.


I think you mean the Exploro and yeah I like the bike. It's roughly the same price as the Open U.P. and designed by the same people essentially. It has been ridden to victories and podiums in big events as well by Panaracer's gravel team, but it really is out the price range I want to stay in. It's a cool bike though.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2176241/six-month-test-3t-exploro

Featured Bike: Bob Cumming's 3T Exploro of the Panaracer Gravel Team - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience


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## marathonrunner

Oh, and seriously, having a threaded cartridge bottom bracket is not something to overlook for gravel. Pressfits IME are always worse at keeping crud out.


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## Rashadabd

marathonrunner said:


> Another bike you could consider is the BMC Gran Fondo 02 disc. Stock is 50/34 11-32 gearing.
> 
> I've personally ridden the diverge and the warbird and the RLT9. All great bikes. They all felt too upright, slow and sluggish for me, but I ride in a pretty slammed stretched out position on my Madone.
> 
> I went with a BMC GF 02 disc 105 because it was cheaper. Clearance is a little worse than the warbird and diverge, only fits 38mm+mud but I use 35mm tubeless for DK, ragnarok 105, Miesville 56 and other midwest races. 40's feel slow and sluggish to me. If I ride stuff that requires more than 38's I'll use my mtb instead.
> 
> I would really like electronic shifting and hydro brakes on it, but $$$.


BMC doesn't make the Gran Fondo anymore man. It was a really cool bike. They replaced it with the Roadmachine, which has to be one of the nicest looking designs out there. It's more road oriented and doesn't seem to have the same tire clearance though.


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## Rashadabd

marathonrunner said:


> Oh, and seriously, having a threaded cartridge bottom bracket is not something to overlook for gravel. Pressfits IME are always worse at keeping crud out.


Good point, unfortunately, there aren't many options out there these days. You can probably run a praxis or something similar on some of PF bikes though.

Here's more on the BMC RM:


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## marathonrunner

Rashadabd said:


> BMC doesn't make the Gran Fondo anymore man. It was a really cool bike. They replaced it with the Roadmachine, which has to be one of the nicest looking designs out there. It's more road oriented and doesn't seem to have the same tire clearance though.


Buy used? 

But I wasn't aware of that. Pity! I think they marketed it poorly but there are a few in my riding group who have them.


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## Migen21

Just FYI, the RM-01 Max tire clearance is about 30mm. The RM-02 and RM-03 likely have more if you want to go that route.

I have been watching eBay for a used GF-0x disc, but I rarely see them in my size (61cm).

I have a rim brake GF-01, which I love dearly, but the brake calipers limit tire size to about 28mm.

Also, I would be wary of any of the 3T bikes at this point. I know three people who have purchased frames and every single one had issues. Two of them broke ( not talking cracks here . We're talking complete break of the top tube in the area of the seat post). In all cases, 3T initially refused warranty saying it was user error. One of them was eventually able to get a warranty replacement after going to a local dealer for help. The other two ordered online and are basically SOL.





Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> Just FYI, the RM-01 Max tire clearance is about 30mm. The RM-02 and RM-03 likely have more if you want to go that route.
> 
> I have been watching eBay for a used GF-0x disc, but I rarely see them in my size (61cm).
> 
> I have a rim brake GF-01, which I love dearly, but the brake calipers limit tire size to about 28mm.
> 
> Also, I would be wary of any of the 3T bikes at this point. I know three people who have purchased frames and every single one had issues. Two of them broke ( not talking cracks here . We're talking complete break of the top tube in the area of the seat post). In all cases, 3T initially refused warranty saying it was user error. One of them was eventually able to get a warranty replacement after going to a local dealer for help. The other two ordered online and are basically SOL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Wow, it's so interesting you say that and that Marc shared what he did about Niner today. I have literally been thinking for a little while now that I really want to stick ti the bigger brands these days when it comes to carbon (Specialized, Trek, Fuji, Giant, etc.). It was just a gut feeling kind of thing, but I have seen a series of issues of different types as well.


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## ddave12000

Rashadabd said:


> I think you mean the Exploro and yeah I like the bike. It's roughly the same price as the Open U.P. and designed by the same people essentially. It has been ridden to victories and podiums in big events as well by Panaracer's gravel team, but it really is out the price range I want to stay in. It's a cool bike though.
> 
> https://www.outsideonline.com/2176241/six-month-test-3t-exploro
> 
> Featured Bike: Bob Cumming's 3T Exploro of the Panaracer Gravel Team - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience



Haha whoops, yes I meant Exploro :blush2:


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## marathonrunner

Rashadabd said:


> Wow, it's so interesting you say that and that Marc shared what he did about Niner today. I have literally been thinking for a little while now that I really want to stick ti the bigger brands these days when it comes to carbon (Specialized, Trek, Fuji, Giant, etc.). It was just a gut feeling kind of thing, but I have seen a series of issues of different types as well.


Salsa has great customer service and stands by their stuff as well. I wouldn't hesitate to get a carbon warbird. So many guys here (Minneapolis) have them.


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## Rashadabd

marathonrunner said:


> Salsa has great customer service and stands by their stuff as well. I wouldn't hesitate to get a carbon warbird. So many guys here (Minneapolis) have them.


Good to know, thanks!


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## Hiro11

My opinions:
1. I like a more stable / less racy bike for gravel racing. Low bottom brackets, longer chainstays, slacker head angle. Cross bikes aren't this at all and thus not what I like for gravel racing. YMMV.
2. I'd consider clearance for 40mm tires a minimum. 45+ is better.
3. Frame bags, handlebar bags and stem bags are essential for longer rides. You need to carry more food, tools etc than you do on a road ride. These bags vary widely in applicability to gravel racing. The mounting hardware and fit are critical as small variations make a big difference in all day riding.
4. Internal cables are not my preferred option for gravel racing. More places for water and dirt to enter, more rattling, harder to bodge etc.
5. Personally, carbon is out for gravel racing. If you race gravel, you are going to thrash your bike: crashes, mud, rocks pinging off the frame etc. I prefer steel and Ti for gravel. Personally. Along the same lines, buy what you can afford to trash. If you're too nervous about damaging your bike in a gravel race, you're missing out on fun
6. Fenders are often a good idea on many gravel races. I would make sure you can fit them.
7. Wider bars are really nice on gravel. I use a flared 46 bar.
8. Tires are critical for gravel. I like tubeless. I like less thread/more slick designs. I prefer sidewall toughness and resistance to cuts to suppleness.
9. Non bike-specific but I prefer to wear an MTB-style hydration pack while racing gravel. I find using bottles to be a pain in the ass while riding loose stuff. Then I get dehydrated, then I stop riding. Hydration packs make it much easier to keep drinking and eating.
10. I'll take increased toughness and reliability over saving a pound in bike weight all day, every day when it comes to gravel racing.


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## Rashadabd

Hiro11 said:


> My opinions:
> 1. I like a more stable / less racy bike for gravel racing. Low bottom brackets, longer chainstays, slacker head angle. Cross bikes aren't this at all and thus not what I like for gravel racing. YMMV.
> 2. I'd consider clearance for 40mm tires a minimum. 45+ is better.
> 3. Frame bags, handlebar bags and stem bags are essential for longer rides. You need to carry more food, tools etc than you do on a road ride. These bags vary widely in applicability to gravel racing. The mounting hardware and fit are critical as small variations make a big difference in all day riding.
> 4. Internal cables are not my preferred option for gravel racing. More places for water and dirt to enter, more rattling, harder to bodge etc.
> 5. Personally, carbon is out for gravel racing. If you race gravel, you are going to thrash your bike: crashes, mud, rocks pinging off the frame etc. I prefer steel and Ti for gravel. Personally. Along the same lines, buy what you can afford to trash. If you're too nervous about damaging your bike in a gravel race, you're missing out on fun
> 6. Fenders are often a good idea on many gravel races. I would make sure you can fit them.
> 7. Wider bars are really nice on gravel. I use a flared 46 bar.
> 8. Tires are critical for gravel. I like tubeless. I like less thread/more slick designs. I prefer sidewall toughness and resistance to cuts to suppleness.
> 9. Non bike-specific but I prefer to wear an MTB-style hydration pack while racing gravel. I find using bottles to be a pain in the ass while riding loose stuff. Then I get dehydrated, then I stop riding. Hydration packs make it much easier to keep eating.
> 10. I'll take increased toughness and reliability over saving a pound in bike weight all day, every day when it comes to gravel racing.


Good stuff, important points to consider. Thanks!


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## Rashadabd

If I ever went with a steel or titanium gravel bike, which I don't know that I will (but I'm open to some degree), it would probably be one of these given the features I prefer (price and looks are the major stumbling blocks for me when it comes to steel and titanium). Out of these I kind of like the the Litespeed and the Routt RSL the best, but the Routt is super expensive. Obvioulsy, the Norco would be the budget option:

Search XR Steel - Adventure - Adventure - Road - Bikes - Norco Bicycles

ROUTT RSL - Moots 

https://22bicycles.com/products/drifter?variant=33633795466

https://shop.litespeed.com/collections/titanium-gravel/products/litespeed-gravel-700c


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## Rashadabd




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## Rashadabd

Search XR


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## Rashadabd

Here's the Lynskey Pro GR for those that are interested. I don't really like the look much, but the price is solid, definitely not as high as some of the others. 

https://lynskeyperformance.com/road/gravel/pro-gr/


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## Rashadabd

The GR 260 is even more affordable and is better looking IMO:

https://lynskeyperformance.com/road/gravel/gr-260/

Press Release: Lynskey Performance releases the GR260 Gravel Bike - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience

The 250 became the 260, but you get the idea:


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## Rashadabd




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## Migen21

Hiro11 said:


> My opinions:
> 1. I like a more stable / less racy bike for gravel racing. Low bottom brackets, longer chainstays, slacker head angle. Cross bikes aren't this at all and thus not what I like for gravel racing. YMMV.
> 2. I'd consider clearance for 40mm tires a minimum. 45+ is better.
> 3. Frame bags, handlebar bags and stem bags are essential for longer rides. You need to carry more food, tools etc than you do on a road ride. These bags vary widely in applicability to gravel racing. The mounting hardware and fit are critical as small variations make a big difference in all day riding.
> 4. Internal cables are not my preferred option for gravel racing. More places for water and dirt to enter, more rattling, harder to bodge etc.
> 5. Personally, carbon is out for gravel racing. If you race gravel, you are going to thrash your bike: crashes, mud, rocks pinging off the frame etc. I prefer steel and Ti for gravel. Personally. Along the same lines, buy what you can afford to trash. If you're too nervous about damaging your bike in a gravel race, you're missing out on fun
> 6. Fenders are often a good idea on many gravel races. I would make sure you can fit them.
> 7. Wider bars are really nice on gravel. I use a flared 46 bar.
> 8. Tires are critical for gravel. I like tubeless. I like less thread/more slick designs. I prefer sidewall toughness and resistance to cuts to suppleness.
> 9. Non bike-specific but I prefer to wear an MTB-style hydration pack while racing gravel. I find using bottles to be a pain in the ass while riding loose stuff. Then I get dehydrated, then I stop riding. Hydration packs make it much easier to keep drinking and eating.
> 10. I'll take increased toughness and reliability over saving a pound in bike weight all day, every day when it comes to gravel racing.


I'm with you on most of this, but definitely disagree on Fenders. Maybe it's just our local terrain, but having fenders is just asking for trouble with debris binding in them, or having to deal with them getting pushed out of shape, or the hardware coming loose. For off-road in general, the less complicated the better. I live in the Pacific Nothwest, where it's wet even when it's not. Id' rather deal with some spray than deal with the fenders themselves. 

Sure, on a commuter or road bike where Im less likely to be dealing with thick mud, or leaves and branches that might jam in a fender, they are great. 

And as far as Carbon Frames goes, there is definitely some concern there, but a well designed carbon gravel bike, along with some added protection (strategically placed helicopter tape, etc...) can help mitigate the chips and things that you might encounter off road. I have a Norco Search with about 6000 gravel miles and other than some scuffs near the dropouts, it still looks nearly new. Norco has experience with mountain bikes, and uses what they call "ArmorLite" technology, which is basically a harder resin that is more impact resistant than what is typically used. Carbon Fiber's durability is largely determined by the bikes design/engineering, and the matrix' used to suspend the fibers. It can be just as impervious to impact damage is a metal bike if properly designed. It's used in aviation, where high speed small object impacts are common (especailly on take-off and landing), and performs just fine. 

I'm not saying that Carbon is a better material in every case, but I wouldn't dismiss is completely out of hand either.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> I'm with you on most of this, but definitely disagree on Fenders. Maybe it's just our local terrain, but having fenders is just asking for trouble with debris binding in them, or having to deal with them getting pushed out of shape, or the hardware coming loose. For off-road in general, the less complicated the better. I live in the Pacific Nothwest, where it's wet even when it's not. Id' rather deal with some spray than deal with the fenders themselves.
> 
> Sure, on a commuter or road bike where Im less likely to be dealing with thick mud, or leaves and branches that might jam in a fender, they are great.
> 
> And as far as Carbon Frames goes, there is definitely some concern there, but a well designed carbon gravel bike, along with some added protection (strategically placed helicopter tape, etc...) can help mitigate the chips and things that you might encounter off road. I have a Norco Search with about 6000 gravel miles and other than some scuffs near the dropouts, it still looks nearly new. Norco has experience with mountain bikes, and uses what they call "ArmorLite" technology, which is basically a harder resin that is more impact resistant than what is typically used. Carbon Fiber's durability is largely determined by the bikes design/engineering, and the matrix' used to suspend the fibers. It can be just as impervious to impact damage is a metal bike if properly designed. It's used in aviation, where high speed small object impacts are common (especailly on take-off and landing), and performs just fine.
> 
> I'm not saying that Carbon is a better material in every case, but I wouldn't dismiss is completely out of hand either.


That's basically what I have found to be the reality that is hard to ignore. Well designed carbon bikes are raced in MTB races. From XC to marathon to downhill they are used and seem to hold up fine for the most part. Carbon bikes are used in cyclocross, including the brutal conditions in Belgium with its mud, sand, and crashes on almost every lap sometimes and they hold up fine for the most part. Carbon bikes have been used in every major gravel race and not only survive, but find their way to the podium regularly. It is what it is, but yeah if you want the added peace of mind and/or insurance against a crack or failure of some kind, you can go Ti or steel too (which isn't necessarily crazy if you are spending a couple of thousand on a new bike). There really aren't any wrong answers here when it comes to frame material. Fenders are a big meh to me for actual races, I haven't seen many people using them in the races I have watched online, but the option to add them for a training ride or rainstorm is probably a nice feature.


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## Rashadabd

That being said, I am starting to like this one a bit.


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## marathonrunner

Agree on the cx geo not being ideal for fast gravel descents. Also agreed on the wider bars- I use 44cm on the gravel bike and 42cm on my road bike. 

I do care about weight and speed. Therefore, no fenders, narrowest lightest tubeless tires I can get away with, definitely didn't want a steel frame. 

Carbon and ti are too $$ for me. Too many hills here to go 1x. You do see some people using fenders during D2R2, but you see people on everything during that ride.


----------



## Rashadabd

Hunt 4Season Gravel Disc and Clement Ushuaia wheels seem like solid options with a reasonable price and weight. What others do you guys like? Do you have any favorite 700cc 29er wheels that would be a good option for a gravel race?

Review: Clement Ushuaia Gravel Wheelset - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience

Wheel Review: Hunt Four Season Gravel Disc Wheelset - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience

Also, what are some of your favorite 40mm or wider tires?


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## Migen21

So I'm in the market for a replacement for my 2015 Norco Search. It's a great bike, but it's limited on tire clearance to about 38mm. Much less if I put fenders on it. THere were a few times last year where I really would have preferred something in the 42-45mm range.


I'm tall. I ride a 60cm/61cm frame, and use either 175mm or 180mm cranks, and would likely not opt for a 650b wheel, although I might consider it with a really fat tire. 

Right now, I'm considering some of the bikes in this thread.



Norco Search XR (much lower cost than most of the other options)
Lynskey GR Series (I like the looks of these, but really want to buy from a local dealer)
Salsa Warbird
3T Exploro (I've kinda eliminated this based on some bad experiences a couple of friends had with them)
Semi-custom Ti or Carbon (Moots/Sage/Parlee/Seven, etc...)

There are probably others. I need to make the rounds of the local shops and see what all of my options are. 

Right now, it's probably down to the Search XR, which I can buy as a frameset and migrate my existing components to, or the Salsa Warbird. I haven't talked to the dealer about prices and ordering options on these yet.


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## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> So I'm in the market for a replacement for my 2015 Norco Search. It's a great bike, but it's limited on tire clearance to about 38mm. Much less if I put fenders on it. THere were a few times last year where I really would have preferred something in the 42-45mm range.
> 
> 
> I'm tall. I ride a 60cm/61cm frame, and use either 175mm or 180mm cranks, and would likely not opt for a 650b wheel, although I might consider it with a really fat tire.
> 
> Right now, I'm considering some of the bikes in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Norco Search XR (much lower cost than most of the other options)
> Lynskey GR Series (I like the looks of these, but really want to buy from a local dealer)
> Salsa Warbird
> 3T Exploro (I've kinda eliminated this based on some bad experiences a couple of friends had with them)
> Semi-custom Ti or Carbon (Moots/Sage/Parlee/Seven, etc...)
> 
> There are probably others. I need to make the rounds of the local shops and see what all of my options are.
> 
> Right now, it's probably down to the Search XR, which I can buy as a frameset and migrate my existing components to, or the Salsa Warbird. I haven't talked to the dealer about prices and ordering options on these yet.


Obviously the Search XR and Warbird are on my shortlist. If you are comfortable with or prefer carbon, those two are tough to beat for what you get. I think I like the Search XR a little more due to some of the added features they built in. If you want Titanium, I like Moots and Lynskey. Maybe you can get wheels and components from a local shop if you go with them. My pre test ride reworked final three are:

1) Specialized Diverge 

2) Lynskey GR 260

3) Norco Search XR Carbon or Steel

I am going to continue taking my time to compare these three finalists and the possibly pull the trigger sometime after the new year.


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## Migen21

I just took a quick scan of Moot's offerings

The only bike that really interests me would be the Moots Routt 45

Routt 45 - Moots

Good tire clearance, flat mount disc brakes, etc...

I'm not sure the extra cost over something like the Linskey's is really worth it. I don't have any dramatic custom frame requirements, so it's hard to justify the extra cost.


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## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> I just took a quick scan of Moot's offerings
> 
> The only bike that really interests me would be the Moots Routt 45
> 
> Routt 45 - Moots
> 
> Good tire clearance, flat mount disc brakes, etc...
> 
> I'm not sure the extra cost over something like the Linskey's is really worth it. I don't have any dramatic custom frame requirements, so it's hard to justify the extra cost.


That’s pretty much how I feel as well, especially after recently buying a smart trainer and two road bikes (alloy crit & disc equipped carbon gran fondo/group ride bikes). I need to go easy on the price with this one. My final three all fall in a range I feel comfortable with and have the features I am looking for but are unique in their own way. The Lynskey is a really tough one not to get from where I am sitting right now.

I just need to figure out how much I would ride it and to do what. That will help me decide how big to go.


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## Migen21

At this point, unless I can find a really good deal on a Salsa Warbird (unlikely), I'm just going to get the Search XR Frameset and transfer my Ultegra Di2 over to it. 

I'll need to get new adapters for the front hubs (old Search is 15mm and the new one is 12mm). I get a pretty nice discount from the shop that sells these. It's the best/safest/cheapest option to get the most bike for my money.

I might even be able to recoup some of the cost by selling my old Search frameset.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> At this point, unless I can find a really good deal on a Salsa Warbird (unlikely), I'm just going to get the Search XR Frameset and transfer my Ultegra Di2 over to it.
> 
> I'll need to get new adapters for the front hubs (old Search is 15mm and the new one is 12mm). I get a pretty nice discount from the shop that sells these. It's the best/safest/cheapest option to get the most bike for my money.
> 
> I might even be able to recoup some of the cost by selling my old Search frameset.


That makes sense and seems like a good choice. Keep us updated.


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## Rashadabd

FWIW, the carbon Warbird frameset is the same price as the Search XR reportedly:

Salsa 2018 Warbird Carbon Frameset in Tree Fort Bikes Cross/Gravel

https://www.joe-bike.com/product/salsa-warbird-carbon-frameset-228296-1.htm


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## Rashadabd

An interesting discussion on wheel size options:


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## Rashadabd

For those looking for a true budget buy, it's almost impossible to beat the Fuji Jari. It can fit 45mm 700cc tires and is compatible with 650b out of the box. You can often get one of these things at Performance Bike for under $1000. You will probably need to add hydro shifters and brakes, but you can't beat what you are getting for the price. I tested one about 6 months or so ago and, to be honest, with the extra large tires (I think it came with 38mm tires), it felt like I was on a much more expensive bike. It accelerated fine and handled well too. It's not a light bike by any stretch of the imagination, but what metal gravel bikes are? They are definitely worth checking out if you want something you won't feel guilty about beating up or need to get a gravel bike for as little as possible. The frameset is like $650, which is ridiculous. Lots of versatility and upgrade potential in an affordable package. 

https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/05/05/soc16-fuji-jari-packs-adventure-features-new-gravel-road-bike/

Fuji Bikes | Jari 1.7

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/03/23/review-fuji-jari-adventures-road-single-track-everywhere/

https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/fuji-jari-1-1-review-budget-badass/


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## Hiro11

Migen21 said:


> I'm with you on most of this, but definitely disagree on Fenders. Maybe it's just our local terrain, but having fenders is just asking for trouble with debris binding in them, or having to deal with them getting pushed out of shape, or the hardware coming loose. For off-road in general, the less complicated the better. I live in the Pacific Nothwest, where it's wet even when it's not. Id' rather deal with some spray than deal with the fenders themselves.
> 
> Sure, on a commuter or road bike where Im less likely to be dealing with thick mud, or leaves and branches that might jam in a fender, they are great.


I agree with all of this. My point was more that there are situations where you might want to mount fenders on this type of bike. When buying this type of bike, you might want to take that into consideration when considering braze-ons, tire clearance etc.



> I'm not saying that Carbon is a better material in every case, but I wouldn't dismiss is completely out of hand either.


Yeah, my preference for metal frames is just that: a personal preference. I get that lots of people use carbon frames in extremely rugged environments (DH racing, for example) without issue. It's more that in considering the totality of factors I look for in a gravel bike (smooth ride, affordability, toughness, threaded BB, impact resistance) steel and TI are a better fit, for me.


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## Rashadabd

Crusher in the Tushar advice that seems like it would be applicable elsewhere....

Book excerpt: A guide to Crusher in the Tushar | VeloNews.com


----------



## Rashadabd

I honestly don't know much about this bike other than that it exists and is made by a company started by the former owner of Guru bikes.

::::: All-Terrain X3 :::::

It looks like they also own a carbon repair business:

Welcome to CycleFX

Guru Cycles founder and managers launch new titanium bike brand and carbon repair business | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


----------



## Migen21

The t-lab bike looks interesting, but the max 38mm tire clearance is a deal breaker for me.

I would otherwise put it in the category of the other semi-custom Ti builders like Moots and Seven.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> The t-lab bike looks interesting, but the max 38mm tire clearance is a deal breaker for me.
> 
> I would otherwise put it in the category of the other semi-custom Ti builders like Moots and Seven.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Me too for the most part, there's too many other good options out there that have more versatility and are priced better. I have realized, however, that I kind of like modern painted Titanium/metal bikes. They look good.


----------



## Rashadabd

Hiro11 said:


> I agree with all of this. My point was more that there are situations where you might want to mount fenders on this type of bike. When buying this type of bike, you might want to take that into consideration when considering braze-ons, tire clearance etc.
> 
> Yeah, my preference for metal frames is just that: a personal preference. I get that lots of people use carbon frames in extremely rugged environments (DH racing, for example) without issue. It's more that in considering the totality of factors I look for in a gravel bike (smooth ride, affordability, toughness, threaded BB, impact resistance) steel and TI are a better fit, for me.


You can't argue with that..... There is nothing wrong with each of us having our favorite features that don't necessarily align with what others like. Hopefully, we can all do a better job of embracing this on RBR.


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## Rashadabd

I am in Colorado for a job interview and just checked out some Warbirds in Boulder. I love that bike, want one bad now!


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## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> I am in Colorado for a job interview and just checked out some Warbirds in Boulder. I love that bike, want one bad now!
> View attachment 321357
> View attachment 321357



If you in Denver, give Rodeo Labs a ding. Steve is a cool cat-and those guys are based in Denver

Homepage - Rodeo Adventure Labs, LLCRodeo Adventure Labs, LLC


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## Rashadabd

Marc said:


> If you in Denver, give Rodeo Labs a ding. Steve is a cool cat-and those guys are based in Denver
> 
> Homepage - Rodeo Adventure Labs, LLCRodeo Adventure Labs, LLC


The schedule is pretty packed, but I will definitely try. Thanks for the idea. I really liked University Bicycles in Boulder. Seems like a great shop, really nice folks.


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## Rashadabd




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## Rashadabd




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## Rashadabd

I think the Salsa Cutthroat is really interesting for those of us that already have road bikes and are torn about adding either a gravel bike or a MTB. The Cutthroat is kind of both. You can switch the fork to a 100mm suspension fork and have nice carbon HT or keep it rigid and use all of the storage options for a long distance/tough event gravel beast. It looked nice at the shop in Colorado and seems like it would be really versatile.


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## Rashadabd




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## Rashadabd

What do you guys think of endurance oriented bikes like the Cutthroat (based around MTB wheels basically) vs. bikes like the Warbird and Diverge (modern gravel race specific bikes)? I know both types of bikes are used in all kinds of events, but is one inherently better than the other for your standard 50-100 mile gravel race/event?


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> What do you guys think of endurance oriented bikes like the Cutthroat (based around MTB wheels basically) vs. bikes like the Warbird and Diverge (modern gravel race specific bikes)? I know both types of bikes are used in all kinds of events, but is one inherently better than the other for your standard 50-100 mile gravel race/event?


Will only share my personal opinion having been a gravel and single track rider a short no. of years back. Will preface and say, I love drop bars for their change in position to mitigate fatigue etc. But...again but....my personal experience, I am faster AND more comfortable on a flat bar 29'er or now more popular 650c bike with suitably wide rubber. Just like the GCN video. So for me, no drop bar on gravel....flat bar + no suspension + comfy tires and I can shred gravel faster and longer than on any style of drop bar style bike. A bit of a throw back to rigid mtb riding...when gravel was ridden big miles on a wider flat bar which also affords more leverage.


Ultimate gravel grinder race:

The Leadville Trail 100 MTB Race: Calling all roadies | RKP


----------



## Rashadabd

Here’s an interesting review of the Salsa Cutthroat. 

Salsa Cutthroat Review, Long-term Tested - BIKEPACKING.com


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> Here’s an interesting review of the Salsa Cutthroat.
> 
> Salsa Cutthroat Review, Long-term Tested - BIKEPACKING.com


If you are looking metaphorically to 'split the baby', then a Cutthroat aka monstercross maybe your perfect solution. To distill it down in simple terms, rough road riding is generally more comfortable and more controllable with a flatbar and why they exist on traditional mountain bikes. But if riding less rigorous terrain, then I believe you can have your cake and eat it too. Combine mtb rubber + dropbar, big hoops with wide rubber takes the sting out of dropbars in my opinion.

Really believe it comes down to what kind of trails you want to ride and your pain threshold. For smooth single track and gravel, a conventional gravel bike will do. If riding more gnarly terrain, wider rubber and/or flatbar makes the trip more comfortable and for many more comfort translates to less fatigue and more speed over the long haul....why the 103 mile Leadville race with 1/4 of smooth tarmac is historically won on a light knobby tire mtb with flatbar.


----------



## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> What do you guys think of endurance oriented bikes like the Cutthroat (based around MTB wheels basically) vs. bikes like the Warbird and Diverge (modern gravel race specific bikes)? I know both types of bikes are used in all kinds of events, but is one inherently better than the other for your standard 50-100 mile gravel race/event?


Are you touring or racing? The geometries of these 3 bikes are very different

Look at the geo tables, the Spec is borderline road-bike geometry with short rear center and aggressive angles...the Warbird has a longer rear center but a more CX-lik BB.

If you're on more rugged pea-gravel surfaces, the MCX would be less limited in traction due to tire size....but you sacrifice riding position (more upright. The Cutthroat also, 28-spoke wheels and a 1X gruppo are WTF decisions.


----------



## Rashadabd

I think I agree with both of you that it comes down to intended use. For me, I'm not quite sure, but I am starting to give some serious consideration to the idea of wanting something that I could use for both gravel races and riding all kinds of single track. I see the benefit of adding a completely different kind of bike to my stable, but one that I could still use in gravel races. 

As I indicated earlier in the thread, a number of people compete in gravel races on lightweight HT MTBs and are competitive doing so. I see no reason why one couldn't do the same with a bike like the Cutthroat. It really comes down to the gearing and tire selection more than anything it seems. The Warbird or Diverge would be akin to having a bike that is fairly similar to my road bikes, but with more clearance for wider tires. Getting something like the cutthroat would basically add a MTB to my arsenal, but one that can be optimized for gravel as well. I guess adding a Warbird or something like it would provide me with a pure grave/CX rig. I am seeing this probably has to come down to test rides, but it's interesting to think about.

Here's an example of the big tire bikes at work on gravel:

Sac O Suds 50 Race Report 2015 - JOM's Perspective - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience

This guy races both gravel and XC MTB on a hardtail. 

Jeff Clayton rider blog


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> I think I agree with both of you that it comes down to intended use. For me, I'm not quite sure, but I am starting to give some serious consideration to the idea of wanting something that I could use for both grave races and riding all kinds of single track. I see the benefit of adding a completely different kind of bike to my stable, but one that I could still use in gravel races.
> 
> As I indicated earlier in the thread, a number of people compete in gravel races on lightweight HT MTBs and are competitive doing so. I see no reason why one couldn't do the same with a bike like the Cutthroat. It really comes down to the gearing and tire selection more than anything it seems. The Warbird or Diverge would be akin to having a bike that is fairly similar to my road bikes, but with more clearance for wider tires. Getting something like the cutthroat would basically add a MTB to my arsenal, but one that can be optimized for gravel as well. I guess adding a Warbird or something like it would provide me with a pure grave/CX rig. I am seeing this probably has to come down to test rides, but it's interesting to think about.
> 
> Here's an example of the big tire bikes at work on gravel:
> 
> Sac O Suds 50 Race Report 2015 - JOM's Perspective - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience
> 
> This guy races both gravel and XC MTB on a hardtail.
> 
> Jeff Clayton rider blog


Yes, horses for courses. A mountain bike has been the default gravel bike for years before 'enterprising' bike manufacturers 'invented' the gravel bike specific genre which isn't much different than traditional cyclocross....geometry a bit different.

Cyclocross racer's perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loJrmQoikls


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Yes, horses for courses. A mountain bike has been the default gravel bike for years before 'enterprising' bike manufacturers 'invented' the gravel bike specific genre which isn't much different than traditional cyclocross....geometry a bit different.
> 
> Cyclocross racer's perspective:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loJrmQoikls


This is a very practical perspective, makes a lot of sense if you already have a MTB. I saw his review for his RLT as well a while back, he seems like he tends to provide pretty balanced perspectives in his reviews. 

This is kind of where my head is as well. If I add a modern gravel/CX type bike, I still don't have a MTB for those single track and super muddy or rougher terrain type rides. If I add something like the Cutthroat, I now have a bike that will be perfectly fine on gravel, but I also basically have a HT MTB for other types of events and rides. I guess the other perspective is that you don't end up with a CX bike that way or you might not have the fastest bike you could for gravel races that involve lots of tarmac and tame roads, but I am not convinced those are really compelling arguments for me.

I guess another position is just get a standard gravel bike first and then just add a FS MTB down the road. That's a lot of bikes though and seems a bit like overkill for what I like to do. It does provide you with a bike that thrive on pretty much any terrain though.


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> This is a very practical perspective, makes a lot of sense if you already have a MTB. I saw his review for his RLT as well a while back, he seems like he tends to provide pretty balanced perspectives in his reviews.
> 
> This is kind of where my head is as well. If I add a modern gravel/CX type bike, I still don't have a MTB for those single track and super muddy or rougher terrain type rides. If I add something like the Cutthroat, I now have a bike that will be perfectly fine on gravel, but I also basically have a HT MTB for other types of events and rides. I guess the other perspective is that you don't end up with a CX bike that way or you might not have the fastest bike you could for gravel races that involve lots of tarmac and tame roads, but I am not convinced those are really compelling arguments for me.
> 
> I guess another position is just get a standard gravel bike first and then just add a FS MTB down the road. That's a lot of bikes though and seems a bit like overkill for what I like to do. It does provide you with a bike that thrive on pretty much any terrain though.


Yes, the reviewer is a very thoughtful guy even though his advice may not be precisely applicable to you. Interesting he doesn't own a road specific bike. 

To me a so called jack of all trades bike is a bit like kissing your sister. If you get a chance to ride an uber light carbon full rigid mtb with 650c wheels and gravel tires, you will be amazed at how fast you can ride it. I built one in Ti back when I was riding single track....a 1 x 9 and used to mount 28c road tires on it as a townie, and it wasn't much slower than a road bike on the smooth stuff. Because I am old, a flat bar is much better for me to ride gravel aggressively, so I lean toward a stripped down uber light mtb for all arounder. For the road of course, pure road bike. I want the fastest tool for the job. As mentioned, I am fastest on a super light high end mtb with correct tires on the gravel.


----------



## Rashadabd

Going with a more MTB oriented race rig also opens up races like this one:


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> Going with a more MTB oriented race rig also opens up races like this one:


Would be my vote. I am just not a fan of riding rough road with a dropbar. This is based upon my personal experience. Perhaps a younger or stronger rider maybe more tolerant. Riding position is big as well. How much weight on the hands.

Below is pic of my departed Ti bike that started life with front suspension. Occasionally I would put more road specifc tires and platform pedals. I rode it just a hint stretched out with long stem for a bit more of a roadie position.
Loved the bike. It started life as a more trail specific. I live in an urban jungle now and prefer a dropbar on the smooth stuff so I parted it out.


----------



## crit_boy

My gravel bike is a CX bike. For the gravel rides I do, I would not want to ride my mountain bike instead. 

My normal gravel rides have about 20-30% normal tarmac between gravel roads. Mountain bikes are slower on the road (please skip the smooth tire lecture. I mean a mountain bike ready to ride single track with normal knobby mountain biking tires). 

Even if a mountain bike was equal to a gravel bike on gravel, I would chose the drop bar bike. I do not enjoy riding my mountain bike for more than a couple hours (two). The hand position is so static that I get crab claw hand. The single hand position on flat bars contributes to may hands getting really stiff and worthless. For stupid long mountain bike rides (stupid long mtb rides for me are in excess of 50 miles), I inevitably end up hooking my thumb around the shifter to keep my hand from flying off the end of the bar. 

OTOH, I have no desire to ride my CX/gravel bike on trails that I mountain bike on. Log overs on a rigid drop bar road bike suck. Log overs on a full suspension mtb are fun. 

Despite the new marketing segment, you don't need a gravel bike to ride gravel. Toss some gaterskins on an old road bike. You will be fine riding gravel on a road bike with more puncture resistant tires. 

If you want to mountain bike, then get a mountain bike. I would not get a hybrid bike intended to do both.


----------



## 11spd

crit_boy said:


> My gravel bike is a CX bike. For the gravel rides I do, I would not want to ride my mountain bike instead.
> 
> My normal gravel rides have about 20-30% normal tarmac between gravel roads. Mountain bikes are slower on the road (please skip the smooth tire lecture. I mean a mountain bike ready to ride single track with normal knobby mountain biking tires).
> 
> Even if a mountain bike was equal to a gravel bike on gravel, I would chose the drop bar bike. I do not enjoy riding my mountain bike for more than a couple hours (two). The hand position is so static that I get crab claw hand. The single hand position on flat bars contributes to may hands getting really stiff and worthless. For stupid long mountain bike rides (stupid long mtb rides for me are in excess of 50 miles), I inevitably end up hooking my thumb around the shifter to keep my hand from flying off the end of the bar.
> 
> OTOH, I have no desire to ride my CX/gravel bike on trails that I mountain bike on. Log overs on a rigid drop bar road bike suck. Log overs on a full suspension mtb are fun.
> 
> Despite the new marketing segment, you don't need a gravel bike to ride gravel. Toss some gaterskins on an old road bike. You will be fine riding gravel on a road bike with more puncture resistant tires.
> 
> If you want to mountain bike, then get a mountain bike. I would not get a hybrid bike intended to do both.


Crit boy,
Maybe these GCN ex-pros just can't ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvO74sZxVs4


----------



## Rashadabd

crit_boy said:


> My gravel bike is a CX bike. For the gravel rides I do, I would not want to ride my mountain bike instead.
> 
> My normal gravel rides have about 20-30% normal tarmac between gravel roads. Mountain bikes are slower on the road (please skip the smooth tire lecture. I mean a mountain bike ready to ride single track with normal knobby mountain biking tires).
> 
> Even if a mountain bike was equal to a gravel bike on gravel, I would chose the drop bar bike. I do not enjoy riding my mountain bike for more than a couple hours (two). The hand position is so static that I get crab claw hand. The single hand position on flat bars contributes to may hands getting really stiff and worthless. For stupid long mountain bike rides (stupid long mtb rides for me are in excess of 50 miles), I inevitably end up hooking my thumb around the shifter to keep my hand from flying off the end of the bar.
> 
> OTOH, I have no desire to ride my CX/gravel bike on trails that I mountain bike on. Log overs on a rigid drop bar road bike suck. Log overs on a full suspension mtb are fun.
> 
> D*espite the new marketing segment, you don't need a gravel bike to ride gravel. Toss some gaterskins on an old road bike. You will be fine riding gravel on a road bike with more puncture resistant tires.
> 
> If you want to mountain bike, then get a mountain bike. I would not get a hybrid bike intended to do both*.


Fair enough, but where's the fun in that, lol? Seriously, we don't actually "need" most of this stuff we talk about. I like bike tech and development, it's fun to look at different ways of racing IMO, but to each his own. At bare minimum, I want a Warbird or Diverge, but I am still open to something like the Cutthroat, which lots of people reportedly love to ride.


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## 11spd

Rash,
You might enjoy this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz8GddHM-rg


----------



## Rashadabd

This guy might agree with you though....


Here's the real test we are talking about:


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## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Rash,
> You might enjoy this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz8GddHM-rg


Awesome. Saw it around the same time you did I assume, lol.


----------



## Rashadabd




----------



## Rashadabd

Gravel bike and equipment comparison test. It also touches on the gravel vs mtb issue:

Seven Answers to the seven most important questions from the Gravel Group Test | GRAN FONDO Cycling Magazine


----------



## Rashadabd

More testing:

Which is the best gravel bike of 2018? We put 12 of the most exciting to test | GRAN FONDO Cycling Magazine

They literally looked at basically every option one could consider and the Open U.P. and an alloy equivalent were their favorites, which is a good sign for similar bikes like the Salsa Warbird or Niner RLT RDO, etc.


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## Rashadabd

For those interested in the Cutthroat, here's GF Mag's review:

Salsa Cutthroat Force 1 Review | GRAN FONDO Cycling Magazine


----------



## Migen21

I'm looking specifically for a gravel race bike ( as the thread title suggests). Not a touring bike or a bike packer.

We have a dozen or so events in the area every year that range from informal friendly gatherings to full on hardcore gravel races.

Most of the routes are predominately forest and fire roads in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest. When the roads are well groomed, you could probably get away with a cyclocross bike. Unfortunately they are rarely in great shape. It's not uncommon to have long steep descents (or ascents) that are deeply wash boarded, full of deep potholes and ruts, and if it's been windy, covered in blow downs and broken branches. If its raining, mud is also a component of this. On a typical ride, it might be 70-80 miles of fast hard riding on reasonably fast terrain, the rest being more technical with a small percentage of it being down right nasty.

Having the right bike with the right Wheels and tires is imperative or you'll find yourself walking home.

There were several times last year when I needed more tire volume than I could get on my existing bikes (38mm max). I remember one particular ride where we had climbed all morning, and I ended up having to ride my brakes all the way down the descent on the back side because the roads were in rough shape (washboard, rocks, potholes) and I was fearful of rim hits and damaging a wheel or tire. 

The typical cyclocross bike, or a city bike with gatorskins is not going to cut it for this. 

You might see some folks on a hardtail occasionally, but these are rarely competitive in these events. Especially the longer rides that include faster sections of road.

For my needs, I want a moderately aggressive geometry that can accommodate tires up to 45mm (700c). I don't care about fenders or panniers. If I need to carry supplies I'll use a strap on frame bag.

The Cutthroat is more of a multi-day bike packing rig. Not really a fast race bike. 

The Search XR is a little more suited to my needs.

I really like the Lynskey GR260 (2018 model), although the geometry on the XL is a little long (Wheelbase 1075mm and Chainstays 435mm) for my taste, and the Large is probably a little on the short side for Reach (I am tall but mostly in the upper body with long arms). The idea of Titanium at that price point really appeals to me though. I just wish I could ride one to make sure I get the right size and that the geometry works for me.

The local Lynskey dealer is also the local Salsa dealer. They don't have a Warbird in my size, though if I rode one, I'd fall in love. It has the ideal geometry I'm looking for. I just wish it were made of titanium.


----------



## tangerineowl

Migen21,

Have you considered getting a custom ti frame made with your exact specs/geo? 
e.g. Carver pricing seems pretty good. 

Or look around for a secondhand ti frame with your geo.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> I'm looking specifically for a gravel race bike ( as the thread title suggests). Not a touring bike or a bike packer.
> 
> We have a dozen or so events in the area every year that range from informal friendly gatherings to full on hardcore gravel races.
> 
> Most of the routes are predominately forest and fire roads in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest. When the roads are well groomed, you could probably get away with a cyclocross bike. Unfortunately they are rarely in great shape. It's not uncommon to have long steep descents (or ascents) that are deeply wash boarded, full of deep potholes and ruts, and if it's been windy, covered in blow downs and broken branches. If its raining, mud is also a component of this. On a typical ride, it might be 70-80 miles of fast hard riding on reasonably fast terrain, the rest being more technical with a small percentage of it being down right nasty.
> 
> Having the right bike with the right Wheels and tires is imperative or you'll find yourself walking home.
> 
> There were several times last year when I needed more tire volume than I could get on my existing bikes (38mm max). I remember one particular ride where we had climbed all morning, and I ended up having to ride my brakes all the way down the descent on the back side because the roads were in rough shape (washboard, rocks, potholes) and I was fearful of rim hits and damaging a wheel or tire.
> 
> The typical cyclocross bike, or a city bike with gatorskins is not going to cut it for this.
> 
> You might see some folks on a hardtail occasionally, but these are rarely competitive in these events. Especially the longer rides that include faster sections of road.
> 
> For my needs, I want a moderately aggressive geometry that can accommodate tires up to 45mm (700c). I don't care about fenders or panniers. If I need to carry supplies I'll use a strap on frame bag.
> 
> The Cutthroat is more of a multi-day bike packing rig. Not really a fast race bike.
> 
> The Search XR is a little more suited to my needs.
> 
> I really like the Lynskey GR260 (2018 model), although the geometry on the XL is a little long (Wheelbase 1075mm and Chainstays 435mm) for my taste, and the Large is probably a little on the short side for Reach (I am tall but mostly in the upper body with long arms). The idea of Titanium at that price point really appeals to me though. I just wish I could ride one to make sure I get the right size and that the geometry works for me.
> 
> The local Lynskey dealer is also the local Salsa dealer. They don't have a Warbird in my size, though if I rode one, I suspect if I rode one I'd fall in love. It has the ideal geometry I'm looking for. I just wish it were made of titanium.


I think that’s the interesting thing about gravel racing, what’s the ideal ‘gravel bike’ for one person, course, race, or part of the country, may not be for another. You have to explore a bit I think and figure out what works for you. The Warbird is pretty impressive man, it’s still my favorite at this point. The funny thing about what you said is I think the WB actually used to be a Ti bike. The R260 looks pretty awesome as well. It’s also on my short list because of the price and features. I do like the Cutthroat for a variety of reasons though. Salsa is quickly becoming one of my favorite brands. They design bikes specifically for these races based on years of experience. It was a conscious decision for them to move away from Ti.


----------



## ddave12000

Migen21 said:


> I'm looking specifically for a gravel race bike ( as the thread title suggests). Not a touring bike or a bike packer.
> 
> We have a dozen or so events in the area every year that range from informal friendly gatherings to full on hardcore gravel races.
> 
> Most of the routes are predominately forest and fire roads in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest. When the roads are well groomed, you could probably get away with a cyclocross bike. Unfortunately they are rarely in great shape. It's not uncommon to have long steep descents (or ascents) that are deeply wash boarded, full of deep potholes and ruts, and if it's been windy, covered in blow downs and broken branches. If its raining, mud is also a component of this. On a typical ride, it might be 70-80 miles of fast hard riding on reasonably fast terrain, the rest being more technical with a small percentage of it being down right nasty.
> 
> Having the right bike with the right Wheels and tires is imperative or you'll find yourself walking home.
> 
> There were several times last year when I needed more tire volume than I could get on my existing bikes (38mm max). I remember one particular ride where we had climbed all morning, and I ended up having to ride my brakes all the way down the descent on the back side because the roads were in rough shape (washboard, rocks, potholes) and I was fearful of rim hits and damaging a wheel or tire.
> 
> The typical cyclocross bike, or a city bike with gatorskins is not going to cut it for this.
> 
> You might see some folks on a hardtail occasionally, but these are rarely competitive in these events. Especially the longer rides that include faster sections of road.
> 
> For my needs, I want a moderately aggressive geometry that can accommodate tires up to 45mm (700c). I don't care about fenders or panniers. If I need to carry supplies I'll use a strap on frame bag.
> 
> The Cutthroat is more of a multi-day bike packing rig. Not really a fast race bike.
> 
> The Search XR is a little more suited to my needs.
> 
> I really like the Lynskey GR260 (2018 model), although the geometry on the XL is a little long (Wheelbase 1075mm and Chainstays 435mm) for my taste, and the Large is probably a little on the short side for Reach (I am tall but mostly in the upper body with long arms). The idea of Titanium at that price point really appeals to me though. I just wish I could ride one to make sure I get the right size and that the geometry works for me.
> 
> The local Lynskey dealer is also the local Salsa dealer. They don't have a Warbird in my size, though if I rode one, I'd fall in love. It has the ideal geometry I'm looking for. I just wish it were made of titanium.


I think you should consider a bike that can run 650b tires.


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> *I think that’s the interesting thing about gravel racing, what’s the ideal ‘gravel bike’ for one person, course, race, or part of the country, may not be for another. *You have to explore a bit I think and figure out what works for you. The Warbird is pretty impressive man, it’s still my favorite at this point. The funny thing about what you said is I think the WB actually used to be a Ti bike. The R260 looks pretty awesome as well. It’s also on my short list because of the price and features. I do like the Cutthroat for a variety of reasons though. Salsa is quickly becoming one of my favorite brands. They design bikes specifically for these races based on years of experience. It was a conscious decision for them to move away from Ti.


Your post is spot on. Every bit of it. I really think you get the road biking thing reading your posts. And because of that, you will be more challenged in making a singular decision because you see the blurred line between all genres of bike out there. Like the video from the cyclocross racer that chose a cyclocross bike for gravel grinding . For many a cyclocross bike geometry will be too aggressive for gravel grinding but not for him. Then there are guys like me who prefer a bit more tire and a flat handlebar with Ergon grips for riding fast on gravel roads. I lived on a gravel road and off a single track bike trail that had a lot of gravel and smooth trail. I am an inveterate experimenter. I try everything and then decide. For me, no drop bar if trying to ride gravel fast. I can rip gravel better on a 29er mtb with suitable tires. I have better hand comfort with a flat bar…and better control of the front wheel. I am faster on this style of bike. Of course I can rip gravel on a gravel bike. I will simply be paying for it after 20 miles of aggressive riding in terms of fatigue and lack of body comfort and by contrast can hammer a mtb…with or without front shock for much longer. I tend to prefer fully rigid for gravel with 45-50’ish mm tires with almost no knob aka designed for combo of tarmac and gravel.
So that is my experience living on a gravel road and riding everyday. When I lived out in the country, I had to put my road bike in my car to join up with my friends for group riding. Now I live with tarmac off my back door (by intent) and never even ride off paved roads which suits me fine because I am a city boy at heart.
Good luck Rash. A tough decision to find just that perfect 'single' bike if venturing off the tarmac.. Also agree with your assessment of Salsa. A company that gets it. I know many love Ti for its overall character when riding off paved road. But for my money if ‘racing’…carbon fiber every day, all day. Of course with suitable stone protection on the downtube. A race specific bike if racing with the most aggressive position you can tolerate, understanding that many will prefer a bit more upright off road because of the pounding. Light is king including wheels that can take the beating. My only advice is…build the lightest possible bike for racing, whatever design you decide upon.  Its light you pay for. Lots of good heavy bikes out there.


----------



## 11spd

Rash,
As you consider your ultimate gravel bike, what size tire you choose based upon variable terrain is a factor of course and why you are compelled by the monstercross bike and of course I simply make the leap to a racing hardtail.

Here is an informative video that addresses tire volume relative to psi with focus upon casing 'tension'.

You maybe interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGv329v8-vI


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Your post is spot on. Every bit of it. I really think you get the road biking thing reading your posts. And because of that, you will be more challenged in making a singular decision because you see the blurred line between all genres of bike out there. Like the video from the cyclocross racer that chose a cyclocross bike for gravel grinding . For many a cyclocross bike geometry will be too aggressive for gravel grinding but not for him. Then there are guys like me who prefer a bit more tire and a flat handlebar with Ergon grips for riding fast on gravel roads. I lived on a gravel road and off a single track bike trail that had a lot of gravel and smooth trail. I am an inveterate experimenter. I try everything and then decide. For me, no drop bar if trying to ride gravel fast. I can rip gravel better on a 29er mtb with suitable tires. I have better hand comfort with a flat bar…and better control of the front wheel. I am faster on this style of bike. Of course I can rip gravel on a gravel bike. I will simply be paying for it after 20 miles of aggressive riding in terms of fatigue and lack of body comfort and by contrast can hammer a mtb…with or without front shock for much longer. I tend to prefer fully rigid for gravel with 45-50’ish mm tires with almost no knob aka designed for combo of tarmac and gravel.
> So that is my experience living on a gravel road and riding everyday. When I lived out in the country, I had to put my road bike in my car to join up with my friends for group riding. Now I live with tarmac off my back door (by intent) and never even ride off paved roads which suits me fine because I am a city boy at heart.
> Good luck Rash. A tough decision to find just that perfect 'single' bike if venturing off the tarmac.. Also agree with your assessment of Salsa. A company that gets it. I know many love Ti for its overall character when riding off paved road. But for my money if ‘racing’…carbon fiber every day, all day. Of course with suitable stone protection on the downtube. A race specific bike if racing with the most aggressive position you can tolerate, understanding that many will prefer a bit more upright off road because of the pounding. Light is king including wheels that can take the beating. My only advice is…build the lightest possible bike for racing, whatever design you decide upon.  Its light you pay for. Lots of good heavy bikes out there.


Good stuff, thanks man. Here's a nice Warbird build for those that are interested:

Featured Bike: Mike Spilker's Salsa Warbird Carbon Gravel Bike - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> Good stuff, thanks man. Here's a nice Warbird build for those that are interested:
> 
> Featured Bike: Mike Spilker's Salsa Warbird Carbon Gravel Bike - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience


Lovely bike for sure and seems race ready. I like the geometry. I could ride it...not too aggressive. Any idea what std weight is for a L with Ultegra? Do you know what max tire size is?

WARBIRD CARBON ULTEGRA | Salsa Cycles


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Lovely bike for sure and seems race ready. I like the geometry. I could ride it...not too aggressive. Any idea what std weight is for a L with Ultegra? Do you know what max tire size is?
> 
> WARBIRD CARBON ULTEGRA | Salsa Cycles


Yep, I think you will find most of these have slightly more relaxed geometry like the H2 geometry you like. Official tire clearance is 44mm, but it looked like you could fit more easily. Nicely equipped, you are looking at 18-19lbs or so usually


----------



## Migen21

I have two and a half very minor nits about the Warbird.

1. 15mm front thru-axle. d. I would really like to get to a place where all of my disc brake bikes are the same axle standard, so I have more flexibility on wheel swapping. 12mm is more than stiff enough for gravel, even for a big guy like me. I really wish they would have gone 12mm on this. Likely not a deal breaker.

2. External cabling on the down tube. I realize this is a controversial topic, but my personal preference is not having external cables on the down tube. Especially on a bike that is intended to be ridden offroad. I do my own wrenching, and keep my bikes pretty much immaculately clean. It's also just a cleaner look, and less likely to snag on something. The less stuff on the outside of the frame the better for me. Again, not likely a deal breaker, but I'd prefer to keep the cables inside the down tube.

3. (This only counts as half of a nit). Only available (as a frameset) in one color (the Red with yellow/white/light blue bands). It's not a terrible color. I just don't care for the colored bands. I'd like a few options to choose from.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> I have two and a half very minor nits about the Warbird.
> 
> 1. 15mm front thru-axle. d. I would really like to get to a place where all of my disc brake bikes are the same axle standard, so I have more flexibility on wheel swapping. 12mm is more than stiff enough for gravel, even for a big guy like me. I really wish they would have gone 12mm on this. Likely not a deal breaker.
> 
> 2. External cabling on the down tube. I realize this is a controversial topic, but my personal preference is not having external cables on the down tube. Especially on a bike that is intended to be ridden offroad. I do my own wrenching, and keep my bikes pretty much immaculately clean. It's also just a cleaner look, and less likely to snag on something. The less stuff on the outside of the frame the better for me. Again, not likely a deal breaker, but I'd prefer to keep the cables inside the down tube.
> 
> 3. (This only counts as half of a nit). Only available (as a frameset) in one color (the Red with yellow/white/light blue bands). It's not a terrible color. I just don't care for the colored bands. I'd like a few options to choose from.


I am actually struggling a little with #1 & #2 as well. They are not big issues for me either, but they are enough to keep me from just calling the Warbird the one right now (I am fine with paint schemes, they look really good in person). I keep looking at other options and what I have found is that the features and everything I want can be found on the Open U.P., but getting those minor finishing touches costs me and extra $1000. The Open U.P. frameset is literally the same price as a complete Warbird equipped with a Force 1 hydro groupset and DT Swiss tubeless ready wheels. It just doesn’t seem worth it for one cable and a front thru axle size to me right now. We’ll see where I end up though.


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## 11spd

I believe Mig raises valid points. 15mm thru axle, I don't have a beef with but for a dirt road bike to have external routing...especially carbon which can be molded to accommodate internal routing...curious why they chose this path...unless they thought owners that ride dirt are a bit more Neanderthal and struggle more with internal routing. 

OK, you guys want me to kill the deal completely? Take a look at the bottom bracket. (ducks)


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## Marc

11spd said:


> I believe Mig raises valid points. 15mm thru axle, I don't have a beef with but for a dirt road bike to have external routing...especially carbon which can be molded to accommodate internal routing...curious why they chose this path...unless they thought owners that ride dirt are a bit more Neanderthal and struggle more with internal routing.
> 
> OK, you guys want me to kill the deal completely? Take a look at the bottom bracket. (ducks)



Yup. One of my mates spent $200 some bucks this year on BB overhauls on his gravel-road bike. Mud and dirt are murder to modern spindle-crank BBs.


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## Rashadabd

As others have pointed out, there’s also the Trail Donkey, but it has 15mm TA in the front as well. Good looking though. 

Traildonkey 2.0 - Rodeo Adventure Labs, LLCRodeo Adventure Labs, LLC


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## Rashadabd

Marc said:


> Yup. One of my mates spent $200 some bucks this year on BB overhauls on his gravel-road bike. Mud and dirt are murder to modern spindle-crank BBs.


That’s a tough thing to get away from though unless you really want to limit your options. Some CX racers and MTB folks face the same issue.


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## Rashadabd

The Norco Search XR seems to kind of have everything one could want as well and it’s pretty much as affordable as the Warbird. 

m.norco.com

https://roadbikeaction.com/bike-tests/video-norco-search-xr-ultegra

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/norco-search-xr

http://m.norco.com/bikes/road/adventure/search-xr-carbon/search-xr-framefork/


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## Rashadabd

I just found out one of my favorite local shops recently became a Norco dealer. Ruh roh Raggy....


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## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> As others have pointed out, there’s also the Trail Donkey, but it has 15mm TA in the front as well. Good looking though.
> 
> Traildonkey 2.0 - Rodeo Adventure Labs, LLCRodeo Adventure Labs, LLC


One benny: PF30...not that PF30 is great. I prefer BB30 and would wish for BSA...but the Traildonkey....what a name btw ...can be retrofitted with a Praxis conversion sleeve which is a more tidy alternative to the wide shell pressfit Warbird.

But Rash you may very well be OK with this...but geometry is much different between Tdonkey and Warbird. Tdonkey is much more like a cross bike with not-endurance geometry.
Nice looking bike....geometry may work for you but not for me but that is OK because I am too old to race on dirt.  I have had those great days in the sun.


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## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> One benny: PF30...not that PF30 is great. I prefer BB30 and would wish for BSA...but the Traildonkey....what a name btw ...can be retrofitted with a Praxis conversion sleeve which is a more tidy alternative to the wide shell pressfit Warbird.
> 
> But Rash you may very well be OK with this...but geometry is much different between Tdonkey and Warbird. Tdonkey is much more like a cross bike with not-endurance geometry.
> Nice looking bike....geometry may work for you but not for me but that is OK because I am too old to race on dirt.  I have had those great days in the sun.


I just got off the phone with the shop that now sales Norco. He’s going to contact me once they get one in so that we can test fit and ride, etc., but if those things work out, I think the Search XR is the direction I am going to go in.


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## Migen21

I stopped into the local Salsa dealer today. They have the Warbird Rival22 bike in stock in my size. I did find another minor nit. The brakes are post mount. This means I can't move the brakes from my Search over as I had planned.

They told me that there is very limited stock on the Framesets and the Rival22 builds, and that there won't be any more until late summer at the earliest. 

They also told me that the Shimano 8000 Di2 RD and Shifters are not abailable for another month or so. This means I'd have to order the frameset now, then wait a month or two before all of the components are available to build it.

Alternative, I could buy the Rival22 version and slum on that until the Ultegra Di2 kits are completely available, then rebuild it. The Rival version comes with a fairly decent set of wheels, so the extra money wouldn't be completely wasted.

Here are some pictures of the Rival22 build























































They did have some Lynskey's in stock, but none of the new GR series, and nothing in my size. They had a R260 PRO, which is the road equivalent of the GR260. Impressive construction and materials for sure. It was similar weight to some of the nice carbon bikes. I just don't love the triangular shaped downtime. It just doesn't appeal to me aestethically. 

I'm still torn between the Warbird and the GR-260. I really need to ride the Lynskey to know for sure if the Geometry will work for me (it's dramatically different from the other bikes in this class). Sadly, I don't think there is any way that is going to happen.


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## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> I stopped into the local Salsa dealer today. They have the Warbird Rival22 bike in stock in my size. I did find another minor nit. The brakes are post mount. This means I can't move the brakes from my Search over as I had planned.
> 
> They told me that there is very limited stock on the Framesets and the Rival22 builds, and that there won't be any more until late summer at the earliest.
> 
> They also told me that the Shimano 8000 Di2 RD and Shifters are not abailable for another month or so. This means I'd have to order the frameset now, then wait a month or two before all of the components are available to build it.
> 
> Alternative, I could buy the Rival22 version and slum on that until the Ultegra Di2 kits are completely available, then rebuild it. The Rival version comes with a fairly decent set of wheels, so the extra money wouldn't be completely wasted.
> 
> Here are some pictures of the Rival22 build
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> 
> They did have some Lynskey's in stock, but none of the new GR series, and nothing in my size. They had a R260 PRO, which is the road equivalent of the GR260. Impressive construction and materials for sure. It was similar weight to some of the nice carbon bikes. I just don't love the triangular shaped downtime. It just doesn't appeal to me aestethically.
> 
> I'm still torn between the Warbird and the GR-260. I really need to ride the Lynskey to know for sure if the Geometry will work for me (it's dramatically different from the other bikes in this class). Sadly, I don't think there is any way that is going to happen.


I dunno, I guess it all comes down to what your priorities are. Maybe they can bring one in for you test if you ask???? Other shops have offered to do that for me or have offered a brief return without questions period. My personal opinion, as of today, is that the GR260 and Search XR are a the current generation of gravel bike and you don’t really have to make any compromises by choosing one of those (or the Diverge). You get flat mount brakes, clearance for wide tires, including 650b, 12mm thru-axles, etc. Once I got passed my emotional attachment, I ultimately couldn’t find the upside of going with a Warbird over the Search XR, so that’s where I am headed. If you still really value Ti over Carbon for gravel, I kind of think the Lynskey makes a lot of sense, but it’s such a subjective call that I think it all has to come down to you and what you like.


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## Migen21

Rashadabd said:


> I dunno, I guess it all comes down to what your priorities are. Maybe they can bring one in for you test if you ask???? Other shops have offered to do that for me or have offered a brief return without questions period. My personal opinion, as of today, is that the GR260 and Search XR are a the current generation of gravel bike and you don’t really have to make any compromises by choosing one of those (or the Diverge). You get flat mount brakes, clearance for wide tires, including 650b, 12mm thru-axles, etc. Once I got passed my emotional attachment, I ultimately couldn’t find the upside of going with a Warbird over the Search XR, so that’s where I am headed. If you still really value Ti over Carbon for gravel, I kind of think the Lynskey makes a lot of sense, but it’s such a subjective call that I think it all has to come down to you and what you like.


If I could ride a Lynskey, I'm sure that would seal the deal. I have a small concern about the geometry over the Warbird, Search, etc... in that the chainstays are much longer and it has a more slack head tube. It's a pretty long bike. I had a really long wheelbase bike once and I hated it. The Warbird geometry is nearly the same as my current Norco, and I know that works for me. 

I'm going to give the Search XR one more look, and then make up my mind. The fact that this Warbird is in stock and ready to ride makes it tempting though.


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## Srode

Migen21 said:


> If I could ride a Lynskey, I'm sure that would seal the deal. I have a small concern about the geometry over the Warbird, Search, etc... in that the chainstays are much longer and it has a more slack head tube. It's a pretty long bike. I had a really long wheelbase bike once and I hated it. The Warbird geometry is nearly the same as my current Norco, and I know that works for me.
> 
> I'm going to give the Search XR one more look, and then make up my mind. The fact that this Warbird is in stock and ready to ride makes it tempting though.


What did you hate about the longer bike? You may find what you hated about long is perfect for gravel where longer and stable is an asset. Also, Lynskey will do custom frames Might want to make a phone call to them and chat about the feel vs their other more traditional frames. I like the idea of a Ti frame for gravel and might have gone that route if the 260 were available when I bought / built mine.


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## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> If I could ride a Lynskey, I'm sure that would seal the deal. I have a small concern about the geometry over the Warbird, Search, etc... in that the chainstays are much longer and it has a more slack head tube. It's a pretty long bike. I had a really long wheelbase bike once and I hated it. The Warbird geometry is nearly the same as my current Norco, and I know that works for me.
> 
> I'm going to give the Search XR one more look, and then make up my mind. The fact that this Warbird is in stock and ready to ride makes it tempting though.


Interesting. Go with what you like I say. It looks like the Warbird chainstays are actually significantly longer than the Search XR in my size though. The Diverge and Search XR have really similar geometry, but it’s the Warbird and Lynskey GR260 that seem to be a bit longer. FWIW, people tend to say the longer WB adds to the stability and is a plus in gravel races, but I can’t confirm that yet.


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## 11spd

Absolutely. Go with what you like. Not a bad idea to make a list of metrics that matter and even prioritize them....called a value analysis. This parameterization takes some of the emotion out. Color matters. Shape of the bike matters. To some, thru axle dia. Max tire size. Geometry is king. Seat post commonality may matter. BB matters and another check in the box of the Diverge with BB30 which can run effectively with 30mm ID bearings and suitable crank with no adapters…or a Praxis sleeve with outboard bearings. Alloy bearing bores vs. bare carbon bores on the other bikes mentioned. Wide shell = no conversion potential. I am not a fan of BB86 FWIW.
For me with the Diverge is would come down to which design. ’17 with no future shock or ’18 with future shock. Some know tire size is the great equalizer when it comes to what benefit that shock adds. I would want to ride both on the roads I would buy the bike for to decide. E.g. for my more minimalist nature, I would prefer the non future shock bike. But...big but, I would stomach the complexity if a real benefit is manifest. Yes, FS matters on a Roubaix with 25c tires on broken tarmac. But, how much benefit is the FS on dirt and gravel with 38c tires run at almost 1/2 the pressure? Possibly diminishing return if choosing the right tires for the track.


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## Rashadabd

Here's the best review I have found on the Search XR thus far:

https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/test-norco-search-xr-ultegra/


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## Rashadabd

One more:

Feature: 2018 Norco Bicycles Search XR Carbon Gravel Bike - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience


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## Migen21

I just went back and documented the Search XR geometry compared to the other bikes I'm looking at, and I think upon further review, it looks ideal.

Here is my comparison chart 


Note that this is the largest size available
The top half of this chart is bike's I own or have owned and have a lot of mileage on.
Bottom half is the three bikes under consideration.

<style type="text/css"><!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}--></style>

Brand/ModelSizeHead AngleSeat AngleTop TubeSeat TubeChainstayWheelbaseStackReachRoadmachine RM-01617274.25835734101036633402Norco Search Carbon60.572.572.755955704251045627400Volagi Viaje Ti6072.572.755925654181059645391Gran Fondo GF-016172.573.55905504121041621406Lynskey GR-260X-Large7172.56005504351075635400Salsa Warbird 20186072726006054301049639392Norco Search XR60.572.2572.756005804251054620407

<tbody>

</tbody>
Without riding the Lynskey, I think I like the XR geometry best, at least on paper. It's similar enough to my old Search that I can relate my experience with it. The things that are different are actually better (more Reach is good - I'm a long torso tall guy). The bike is ~1cm longer than my existing search, but that length is in the triangle (longer top tube), rather than the chain stays or fork angle, which I think I like better.

I would be choosing between the Force-1 build and the Frameset (which I'd build up with Ultegra 8000 Di2 when it's available). I'd give the nod to the Force-1 option at this point, as it looks like the ideal 1X setup, and it comes with 650b wheels, which I've been wanting to try (I have lots of 700c wheels already). 

Here is a picture of the XR with the 650B wheels and Force-1 in the Silver/Gray fade in the wild (i.e. Natural lighting).


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## Rashadabd

I like it man. I am looking at either a frameset (and transferring some of my current Ultegra components over from one of my road bikes) or the Ultegra complete. I love the color of that bike and how it is spec’d, but it’s a bit more than I planned to spend. I will probably go with the frameset and build it up over a few months or so, but we’ll see. I wish the Apex wasn’t dark green and brown, but I may have to get over that part because that’s a nice bike for what you’re getting. You swap out the saddle and bar tape for something nice and black, add some gumwall tires and you might have something going on there.


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## Rashadabd




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## Marc

Migen21 said:


> I just went back and documented the Search XR geometry compared to the other bikes I'm looking at, and I think upon further review, it looks ideal.
> 
> Here is my comparison chart
> 
> 
> Note that this is the largest size available
> The top half of this chart is bike's I own or have owned and have a lot of mileage on.
> Bottom half is the three bikes under consideration.
> 
> <style type="text/css"><!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}--></style>
> 
> Brand/ModelSizeHead AngleSeat AngleTop TubeSeat TubeChainstayWheelbaseStackReachRoadmachine RM-01617274.25835734101036633402Norco Search Carbon60.572.572.755955704251045627400Volagi Viaje Ti6072.572.755925654181059645391Gran Fondo GF-016172.573.55905504121041621406Lynskey GR-260X-Large7172.56005504351075635400Salsa Warbird 20186072726006054301049639392Norco Search XR60.572.2572.756005804251054620407
> 
> <tbody>
> 
> </tbody>
> Without riding the Lynskey, I think I like the XR geometry best, at least on paper. It's similar enough to my old Search that I can relate my experience with it. The things that are different are actually better (more Reach is good - I'm a long torso tall guy). The bike is ~1cm longer than my existing search, but that length is in the triangle (longer top tube), rather than the chain stays or fork angle, which I think I like better.
> 
> I would be choosing between the Force-1 build and the Frameset (which I'd build up with Ultegra 8000 Di2 when it's available). I'd give the nod to the Force-1 option at this point, as it looks like the ideal 1X setup, and it comes with 650b wheels, which I've been wanting to try (I have lots of 700c wheels already).
> 
> Here is a picture of the XR with the 650B wheels and Force-1 in the Silver/Gray fade in the wild (i.e. Natural lighting).


$4,100USD for a 1x Force bike...Yeeeeouch. I didn't spend that much more on my bespoked Di2 Ti gravel rig last spring. SRAM pricing lives in bizarro world.

Pretty racy numbers, although granted I never shop XL size frames.


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## Rashadabd

Gravel Cyclist claims the Raleigh Roker is really the bike we are looking for.... This was released today. It doesn't really excite me much, but it is relatively affordable I guess:

Video & Photo Feature: The Ultimate Carbon Gravel Bike? 17.4lbs of lush! - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience






https://www.raleighusa.com/roker-comp-29288


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## 11spd

How tall are you Mig?


Migen21 said:


> I just went back and documented the Search XR geometry compared to the other bikes I'm looking at, and I think upon further review, it looks ideal.
> 
> Here is my comparison chart
> 
> 
> Note that this is the largest size available
> The top half of this chart is bike's I own or have owned and have a lot of mileage on.
> Bottom half is the three bikes under consideration.
> 
> <style type="text/css"><!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}--></style>
> 
> Brand/ModelSizeHead AngleSeat AngleTop TubeSeat TubeChainstayWheelbaseStackReachRoadmachine RM-01617274.25835734101036633402Norco Search Carbon60.572.572.755955704251045627400Volagi Viaje Ti6072.572.755925654181059645391Gran Fondo GF-016172.573.55905504121041621406Lynskey GR-260X-Large7172.56005504351075635400Salsa Warbird 20186072726006054301049639392Norco Search XR60.572.2572.756005804251054620407
> 
> <tbody>
> 
> </tbody>
> Without riding the Lynskey, I think I like the XR geometry best, at least on paper. It's similar enough to my old Search that I can relate my experience with it. The things that are different are actually better (more Reach is good - I'm a long torso tall guy). The bike is ~1cm longer than my existing search, but that length is in the triangle (longer top tube), rather than the chain stays or fork angle, which I think I like better.
> 
> I would be choosing between the Force-1 build and the Frameset (which I'd build up with Ultegra 8000 Di2 when it's available). I'd give the nod to the Force-1 option at this point, as it looks like the ideal 1X setup, and it comes with 650b wheels, which I've been wanting to try (I have lots of 700c wheels already).
> 
> Here is a picture of the XR with the 650B wheels and Force-1 in the Silver/Gray fade in the wild (i.e. Natural lighting).


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## Rashadabd

I think I have settled on the bike (fit session and test ride pending), so I am shifting my focus toward components, gear, equipment, etc. Anyone passionate about things in this category? What are the things an aspiring gravel racer needs? What are some must haves and don't really needs? Tires? Pedals? Shoes? Bar tape, etc.? What are some favorites?

Here are a few lists of shoes and other items I plan to start looking into:

2016 Interbike: Gravel / MTB Shoe Roundup! - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/tested/7-ways-to-upgrade-your-bike-for-gravel-rides

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gea...nd-dirt-roads-your-guide-to-the-gear-you-need

13 gravel and adventure tyres — 30mm+ tyres for go-anywhere riding | road.cc

Best gravel road tires tested – part 1 | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos

The tires on the top of the to explore list right now: 

https://www.wtb.com/collections/gravel-cx/products/resolute

https://www.schwalbetires.com/node/2366

https://www.panaracer.com/lineup/gravel.html

https://www.donnellycycling.com/collections/adventure/products/xplor-mso-tubeless

Top wheels to take a look at:

Ushuaia Wheels | Clement Cycling, Cyclocross Tires, Adventure Tires, Mountain Bike Tires, Road Bike Tires

https://www.notubes.com/avion-team-wheelset

https://www.notubes.com/grail-pro-wheelset-2017


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## tangerineowl

Don't forget the bars. These days there are drop bars for gravel/adventure riding which flare out at the ends; different angles. Carbon and alloy.


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## Rashadabd

tangerineowl said:


> Don't forget the bars. These days there are drop bars for gravel/adventure riding which flare out at the ends; different angles. Carbon and alloy.


I am not sure they are for me, but I definitely want to check some out. Do you have any favorite brands or know of any that are good?


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## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> I am not sure they are for me, but I definitely want to check some out. Do you have any favorite brands or know of any that are good?


Salsa has a few that are alloy and inexpensive...you'll probably want gelpads as the pipe diameter used is small. I use a Cowbell3 I got for $50 on my Bigfoot rig. 

Road Handlebars | Parts & Accessories | Salsa Cycles


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## Rashadabd

Marc said:


> Salsa has a few that are alloy and inexpensive...you'll probably want gelpads as the pipe diameter used is small. I use a Cowbell3 I got for $50 on my Bigfoot rig.
> 
> Road Handlebars | Parts & Accessories | Salsa Cycles


Cool, I will check them out. More feedback for those still trying to select a bike and some confirmation for the rest of us:


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## Rashadabd

I am pretty firm on my decision that I am going to run 2x instead of 1x. I just need to figure out what I want the gearing to look like. I also think I might move to Di2 on my primary road and gravel bikes. All of this makes the Search XR frameset a more likely purchase than the Apex complete. More goodies to look at:


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## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> *I am pretty firm on my decision that I am going to run 2x instead of 1x.* I just need to figure out what I want the gearing to look like. I also think I might move to Di2 on my primary road and gravel bikes. All of this makes the Search XR frameset a more likely purchase than the Apex complete. More goodies to look at:


In bold. Minimalism versus broader range of function. I have owned both. Horses for courses. Overall, I prefer 2 rings and have enjoyed 3 rings as well. For flat land riding, 1 ring will do... but...agree even on my fast road bike, I still prefer 2 rings and stay on the big ring mostly enjoying tighter spacing in back. For a dirt road bike with some climbing, agree. Bottom line with 2 rings is....you get broader range of gear inches for tighter gear spacing with very little weight penalty and increase in complexity. I get the 1x thing but downside including higher cross chain angles has to be considered.


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## Migen21

I stopped by the shop after work today. Availability of the Carbon XR was zero, so that pretty much sealed the deal. I had them order the Force 1 build. It should be here on Friday.

I chose the built bike because it comes with a decent set of 650b wheels, which I would have bought anyway. I also wanted to give the 1X setup a try, and since some of the 8000 series Di2 components are not available yet, getting it built with the Force-1 will give me a bike I can ride, as opposed to one that's sitting on the work stand waiting for components.

I'm going to leave everything stock except the seat for now. That will get changed out to a Shimano Pro Stealth.

The bike comse with an Easton bar that I'm not familiar with. I do know I want some flare on these bars (the Easton bar does have some). If these don't suit me I will likely swap them out for a set of Salsas Cowbell 2, which have a mild flare to them. These were stock on the warbird and I really like the feel of them.

COWBELL 2 BAR | Salsa Cycles | Salsa Cycles


I already have two sets of 700c wheels I can use on this bike (with an endcap conversion).

One set is a DT350 hub set with HED Belgium Plus rims (28/28) 

The other set is a stock set of HED Ardennes I got on sale last spring at Competitive Cyclist. 

Both are tubeless compatible. I'll put a set of Gravel Kings (40mm) on the Belgiums and a set of Compass Barlow Pass on the Ardennes. 

Those combined with the aggressive Maxxis Tread Lite 2.1's that come on the bike will give me all of the wheel and tire options I need (for now ).


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## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> I stopped by the shop after work today. Availability of the Carbon XR was zero, so that pretty much sealed the deal. I had them order the Force 1 build. It should be here on Friday.
> 
> I chose the built bike because it comes with a decent set of 650b wheels, which I would have bought anyway, and it's something I would have purchased anyway. I also wanted to give the 1X setup a try, and since some of the 8000 series Di2 components are not available yet, getting it built with the Force-1 will give me a bike I can ride, as opposed to one that's sitting on the work stand waiting for components.
> 
> I'm going to leave everything stock except the seat for now. That will get changed out to a Shimano Pro Stealth.
> 
> The bike comse with an Easton bar that I'm not familiar with. I do know I want some flare on these bars (the Easton bar does have some). If these don't suit me I will likely swap them out for a set of Salsas Cowbell 2, which have a mild flare to them. These were stock on the warbird and I really like the feel of them.
> 
> COWBELL 2 BAR | Salsa Cycles | Salsa Cycles
> 
> It's a mild flare and a shallow drop, and I think ideal for my needs for this bike.
> 
> I already have two sets of 700c wheels I can use on this bike (with an endcap conversion.
> 
> One set is a DT350 hub set with HED Belgium Plus rims (28/28)
> 
> The other set is a stock set of HED Ardennes I got on sale last spring at Competitive Cyclist.
> 
> Both are tubeless compatible. I'll put a set of Gravel Kings (40mm) on the Belgiums and a set of Compass Barlow Pass on the Ardennes.
> 
> Those combined with the aggressive Maxxis Tread Lite 2.1's that come on the bike will give me all of the wheel and tire options I need (for now ).


That sounds awesome. I can’t wait to see it and read your thoughts on the bike. I started on a potential build list last night. I still need to gather more info about the components I am considering though.


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## Rashadabd

2018 Grinduro dates are out:

Grinduro announces 2018 dates | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


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## 11spd

Migen21 said:


> I stopped by the shop after work today. Availability of the Carbon XR was zero, so that pretty much sealed the deal. I had them order the Force 1 build. It should be here on Friday.
> 
> I chose the built bike because it comes with a decent set of 650b wheels, which I would have bought anyway. I also wanted to give the 1X setup a try, and since some of the 8000 series Di2 components are not available yet, getting it built with the Force-1 will give me a bike I can ride, as opposed to one that's sitting on the work stand waiting for components.
> 
> I'm going to leave everything stock except the seat for now. That will get changed out to a Shimano Pro Stealth.
> 
> The bike comse with an Easton bar that I'm not familiar with. I do know I want some flare on these bars (the Easton bar does have some). If these don't suit me I will likely swap them out for a set of Salsas Cowbell 2, which have a mild flare to them. These were stock on the warbird and I really like the feel of them.
> 
> COWBELL 2 BAR | Salsa Cycles | Salsa Cycles
> 
> 
> I already have two sets of 700c wheels I can use on this bike (with an endcap conversion).
> 
> One set is a DT350 hub set with HED Belgium Plus rims (28/28)
> 
> The other set is a stock set of HED Ardennes I got on sale last spring at Competitive Cyclist.
> 
> Both are tubeless compatible. I'll put a set of Gravel Kings (40mm) on the Belgiums and a set of Compass Barlow Pass on the Ardennes.
> 
> Those combined with the aggressive Maxxis Tread Lite 2.1's that come on the bike will give me all of the wheel and tire options I need (for now ).


Congrats. We look forward to seeing it. My comment is....you may find the 1x Force build just fine. I have been surprised before and we learn with each build.

Don't know your background riding dirt and gravel, but can you comment on your calculus on handlebar height relative to default position on the handlebars you choose. For many the drop position when selecting a dirt drop flared handlebar is the nominal riding positon...very unlike riding a road drop bar.


Guitar Ted's comments...a knowledgeable off road reviewer:

Salsa Cycles Cowchipper Bar Quick Review -


----------



## Rashadabd

I am down to either following Migen's lead and getting a complete Apex equipped Search XR that I can slowly replace parts on while riding or starting with the Search XR frameset and then taking my time to build up a gravel dream bike of sorts. I would just enjoy my road bikes until my gravel ride is complete if I go that route. Either way, I think my build list will look something like this:


Frame: Search XR Frameset

Drivetrain: Shimano Ultegra Di2 R-8070 or mechanical Ultegra. 

Cransket: not sure yet, but it will be 2x and climbing friendly gearing will carry the day. Lots of climbing gears in the back. 

Wheels: Clement Ushuaia Wheels

Bars: Not sure, but I want to give this flared thing a shot

Seatpost and Stem: Ritchey or Zipp are typically my go to. 

Saddle: Shimano Pro Stealth or Specialized Power

Tires: My plan is for there to eventually be a number of sets, but I will probably start with a set of WTBs or Panaracers. 

That should be a solid setup when all is said and done. I am just not convinced the extra $1000 is worth it to get the complete bike if I am just going to take that stuff off anyway. I can sell it on eBay or on here, but I'm not convinced the money I will get for Apex Hydro, etc. will really be worth the effort. Still mulling this part over.

I plan to get into the shop for a fit session in the next week or so and then go from there.


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> I am down to either following Migen's lead and getting a complete Apex equipped Search XR that I can slowly replace parts on while riding or starting with the Search XR frameset and then taking my time to build up a gravel dream bike of sorts. I would just enjoy my road bikes until my gravel ride is complete if I go that route. Either way, I think my build list will look something like this:
> 
> 
> Frame: Search XR Frameset
> 
> Drivetrain: Shimano Ultegra Di2 R-8070 or mechanical Ultegra.
> 
> Cransket: not sure yet, but it will be 2x and climbing friendly gearing will carry the day. Lots of climbing gears in the back.
> 
> Wheels: Clement Ushuaia Wheels
> 
> Bars: Not sure, but I want to give this flared thing a shot
> 
> Seatpost and Stem: Ritchey or Zipp are typically my go to.
> 
> Saddle: Shimano Pro Stealth or Specialized Power
> 
> Tires: My plan is for there to eventually be a number of sets, but I will probably start with a set of WTBs or Panaracers.
> 
> That should be a solid setup when all is said and done. I am just not convinced the extra $1000 is worth it to get the complete bike if I am just going to take that stuff off anyway. I can sell it on eBay or on here, but I'm not convinced the money I will get for Apex Hydro, etc. will really be worth the effort. Still mulling this part over.
> 
> I plan to get into the shop for a fit session in the next week or so and then go from there.


Word up since you are heading into a fitting. Like the contentious (shouldn't have been) Madone thread where locked into an integrated handlebar, if choosing a dirt specific drop bar, this has a profound effect on what geometry you choose in term of stack and reach. You may know this but the hook position of a dirt drop is more the nominal riding positon and as a result, many choose a bit more upright geometry compared to road bike fit.

In your shoes, likely what I would do is try to find Guitar Ted's contact information...with maybe a dirt drop handlebar you are leaning toward. Provide the stack and reach of your road bike and ask him for a target stack and reach based upon riding a dirt drop. He is both extremely knowledgable and a hellova nice guy and I am sure he would share his thoughts as an expert. You can compare his observations with your fitter...again your fit affected by choice of handlebar...so be sure to mention this to your fitter. My thoughts if dropping 3 large on a new gravel bike.


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Word up since you are heading into a fitting. Like the contentious (shouldn't have been) Madone thread where locked into an integrated handlebar, if choosing a dirt specific drop bar, this has a profound effect on what geometry you choose in term of stack and reach. You may know this but the hook position of a dirt drop is more the nominal riding positon and as a result, many choose a bit more upright geometry compared to road bike fit.
> 
> In your shoes, likely what I would do is try to find Guitar Ted's contact information...with maybe a dirt drop handlebar you are leaning toward. Provide the stack and reach of your road bike and ask him for a target stack and reach based upon riding a dirt drop. He is both extremely knowledgable and a hellova nice guy and I am sure he would share his thoughts as an expert. You can compare his observations with your fitter...again your fit affected by choice of handlebar...so be sure to mention this to your fitter. My thoughts if dropping 3 large on a new gravel bike.


Cool, thanks.


----------



## CBaron

Ran across this thread when searching for info on gravel bikes. Lots of good dialogue and info here. Its turned me on to the Norco Search (XR) and I'm kinda digging it. 

However, I wanted to drop this little nugget into the mix too. I REALLY like the geo numbers on this bike but cannot determine how I'd get one sent into the US?

Genesis Datum
Datum-30 | Datum | Adventure Bikes | Genesis Bikes

Blog post with some details about its development
'Un-gravelling' the new Datum | Blog | Genesis Bikes

FWIW, I'm looking for a gravel bike that is on the more racey end of the spectrum. I'd prefer 72* HTA, Shorter CS (under 425), and with room for 40c tires at least. Historically the 3T Exploro has been, by far, my top choice. However, I just can't stomach the price tag. 

These are the following candidates in the mix now:
-Norco Search XR (HTA is tad slack)
-Focus Paralane (very low BB)
-Canyon Endurance (w/ 2nd set of 650b wheels??)
-Genesis Datum (hard to get here)
-3T Exploro (too pricey)

Thanks
CJB


----------



## Rashadabd

CBaron said:


> Ran across this thread when searching for info on gravel bikes. Lots of good dialogue and info here. Its turned me on to the Norco Search (XR) and I'm kinda digging it.
> 
> However, I wanted to drop this little nugget into the mix too. I REALLY like the geo numbers on this bike but cannot determine how I'd get one sent into the US?
> 
> Genesis Datum
> Datum-30 | Datum | Adventure Bikes | Genesis Bikes
> 
> Blog post with some details about its development
> 'Un-gravelling' the new Datum | Blog | Genesis Bikes
> 
> FWIW, I'm looking for a gravel bike that is on the more racey end of the spectrum. I'd prefer 72* HTA, Shorter CS (under 425), and with room for 40c tires at least. Historically the 3T Exploro has been, by far, my top choice. However, I just can't stomach the price tag.
> 
> These are the following candidates in the mix now:
> -Norco Search XR (HTA is tad slack)
> -Focus Paralane (very low BB)
> -Canyon Endurance (w/ 2nd set of 650b wheels??)
> -Genesis Datum (hard to get here)
> -3T Exploro (too pricey)
> 
> Thanks
> CJB


Welcome man! That’s really the whole point behind the thread, to give us a place to talk about this stuff and share information. A couple of things I can say is that I don’t believe the Endurace or Paralane will fit 650b wheels. They are more traditional endurance bikes than they are gravel bikes. If you want something close to that, but with room for 650b, take a look at the new Specialized Diverge. It’s basically a gravel version of the Roubaix. It was a finalist for me and a bike I still like a lot. There are plenty of reviews for it online as well.


----------



## Rashadabd

Evans Cycles will probably ship you a Datum, but there will likely be some additional shipping costs involved. Email them and see what you can work out. At first glance, I am not sure the Datum will fit 40mm tires though. Make sure you double check that if it’s important to you. Again, I don’t think the Paralane and Endurace have the tire clearance you are looking for either. I think they are more in the 30mm-35mm range. Based on your criteria, the Raleigh Roker might be worth checking out too.


----------



## tangerineowl

Rashadabd said:


> I am not sure they are for me, but I definitely want to check some out. Do you have any favorite brands or know of any that are good?


I did get a feel of the Salsa Cowbell bar at a shop, which I really liked the drops design of. My intention was to try a bar with a small amount of flare rather than the ones which flare out a lot.

After hunting around I came across the Satori X-Race Aero (carbon or alu). The bar has an oval top with a wing shape and a little bit of flare at the drops (approx 6 degrees).

I purchased the carbon model and absolutely love it. It is a short and shallow bar. I will say that after using an oval-top bar, I can't see myself going back to the normal-type ones as on my road bike.


----------



## Rashadabd

tangerineowl said:


> I did get a feel of the Salsa Cowbell bar at a shop, which I really liked the drops design of. My intention was to try a bar with a small amount of flare rather than the ones which flare out a lot.
> 
> After hunting around I came across the Satori X-Race Aero (carbon or alu). The bar has an oval top with a wing shape and a little bit of flare at the drops (approx 6 degrees).
> 
> I purchased the carbon model and absolutely love it. It is a short and shallow bar. I will say that after using an oval-top bar, I can't see myself going back to the normal-type ones as on my road bike.


Nice find, thank you for sharing. I will definitely check those out.


----------



## Migen21

I noticed the crankset on the Norco is a Quarq 'Power Ready" version.

I looked into this a bit (I normally use Stages PM's), and found that these are compatible with the 110BCD Quarq DZERO Spider Only PM (hidden bolt or non-hidden bolt versions).

These run about the same price as a Stages PM, so I'm pondering the option. Unfortunately, the shop tells me they are backordered until mid-January.

Anyone tried a DZERO PM? Willing to share impressions?


----------



## tangerineowl

If your were considering a frameset buildup you could look at the Chinese Tideace; an Exploro clone. There's a small build thread over on the Gravel Riding forum.

I would have thought if you kept looking around at US options, you'd be able to find a bike with similar geo to the Datum.


----------



## CBaron

Rashadabd said:


> Evans Cycles will probably ship you a Datum, but there will likely be some additional shipping costs involved. Email them and see what you can work out. At first glance, I am not sure the Datum will fit 40mm tires though. Make sure you double check that if it’s important to you. Again, I don’t think the Paralane and Endurace have the tire clearance you are looking for either. I think they are more in the 30mm-35mm range. Based on your criteria, the Raleigh Roker might be worth checking out too.


You are correct about a few of those bikes not coming in at my min tire size desire. I was quickly putting those options up from memory with some highlight notes in parenthesis. I think that with the bikes that wouldn't fit my tire widths, I'd not be opposed to having 2 sets of wheels 650/700 for it. 

I've got a Cervelo Soloist and then a Surly Cross Check with custom disc tabs added. In a perfect world, I'd like to find a bike that would bridge both needs. I don't mind having a bit more "twitchy" gravel bike, and then a more muted roadie (I think). Good thing is that I don't have to get rid of either of these bikes. So if my experiment doesn't pan out then I can just set it up dedicated XYX and still have a legit road bike and GG in my stable.

re: Chiner clone Exploro
I plan to ride and race the crap out of the bike I get. I'm a tad leery of the chinese stuff for this kind of use. 

Later,
CJB


----------



## Migen21

Just as a point of interest, one of the things that steered me away from the Warbird was the fact that it won't accept 650B wheels with wide (2.1" etc...) tires. 

The chainstays are curved at the point where a 700C tire would be, so there is quite a bit of room there for a wide (44mm) tire, but the curve flattens out pretty dramatically as it gets closer to the center of the wheel. You could run a 650b, but not with a wide tire. I'd be guessing, but I suspect you'd be limited to 38mm or so, depending on the rim width and tire.

This was a bit of a revelation to me. I more or less assumed that any disc brake bike that accepted 700C would take a 650B and probably accept a wider tire, but this is not the case, at least not with all bikes. This is what eventually steered me back to Norco, which not only accepts 2.1" on 650b, it is actually spec'd with it in all sizes.


----------



## Migen21

Re: the 3T Exploro. I got a few more details from the friend who had the frame fail.

I haven't seen this in person, so this is a second hand observation, but he told me that the thing has a really flaky seat post design. Apparently (assuming he wasn't kidding), the the bike actually comes with warning stickers on the frame near the seat post bolt.

The top tube in front of the seat post literally broke down the middle when he was tightening his seat post retainer bolt. 

He said he had trouble with the seat post sliipping the entire time, and it was difficult to get the torque right on the bolt. He said he would tighten it using a calibrated torque wrench, then, on the first ride, the seatpost would slip down and when he checked the bolt it was literrally loose. It was a constant battle to keep the seat adjusted and not slipping. Eventually the retainer pocket where the bolt is just broke and popped through the top tube.

He tried to submit a warranty claim directly, but was rejected by 3T saying user error. Eventually the shop that sold it to him advocated on his behalf and he was able to get a warrantly. He said the new frame has been better... in his words ' so far so good', but he is not a happy 3T owner.

It's possible this was an isolated incident and that the new bike will be fine, but based on his experience, and the cost of the bike, I'll wait until they've worked out some of these issues before I jump on that bandwagon.


----------



## 11spd

tangerineowl said:


> I did get a feel of the Salsa Cowbell bar at a shop, which I really liked the drops design of. My intention was to try a bar with a small amount of flare rather than the ones which flare out a lot.
> 
> After hunting around I came across the Satori X-Race Aero (carbon or alu). The bar has an oval top with a wing shape and a little bit of flare at the drops (approx 6 degrees).
> 
> I purchased the carbon model and absolutely love it. It is a short and shallow bar. I will say that after using an oval-top bar, I can't see myself going back to the normal-type ones as on my road bike.
> 
> View attachment 321411


Can you comment on the stack and reach of your dirt/gravel bike with dirt drop versus your standard roadbike? Do you use the hooks of the Cowbell as your typical riding position in contrast to the hoods being the go to typical position on a roadbike?

In my experience, the ergonomics of riding the hoods on a dirt drop isn't nearly as friendly as riding the hoods on a road bike in terms of wrist position.

Some may set up their gravel bike with dirtdrop with similar stack and reach..or close to their road bike but end up with a riser stem on their gravel bike to make a shallow and more flared hook on a dirtdrop bar their nominal riding position. What did you end up doing? 
Thanks

PS: Related article:

*Bar type*

For off road use most riders prefer a bar designed with dirt use in mind – for reasons of position, control, comfort, and strength. Of course it is possible to use a standard road bar, but it won’t really give the best experience when riding technical terrain. Most opt for a much wider, shallower flared drop bar. Some good options are the Ragley Luxy (which I had a hand in designing and as such are my preference), the Salsa Woodchipper and On-One Midge. These bars are meant to be ridden primarily in the drops and the wider, flared hand position affords a much greater deal of control in rough terrain than a road bar. However if your use involves a significant amount of time on the road or gravel some find these too wide – certainly if it involves any navigating through traffic. As such there are some options available which offer a nice middle ground. The 52cmSalsa Cowbell has become a recent favourite on my Peregrine, and the Nitto RM-014 Dirt Drop or WTB Mountain Roads are also a good option.
_
*Set-up*_

As referenced above, off-road drops are designed to be ridden primarily in the hooks. As such the bars should be positioned to so as to place the hands when in the hooks in a similar position (relative to saddle and pedals) as what they would be when using a typical flat or riser bar. They do not need to mean that you have a lot lower or longer reach than you would on a typical mountain bike. A frame such as the Singular Gryphon which is designed with drop bar use in mind enables most to achieve this without resorting to overly high rise and short stems with large stacks of spacers.
______


The article above for example relates retrofitting a dirtdrop bar to a mtb. Many know that a mtb has a typical top tube length 30-45mm longer than a road bike relative to rider frame size.
So question is...what geometry gravel bike is chosen which directly relates to choice of drop handlebar. Many gravel bikes targeted for 'light duty' gravel munching are sold with a pretty traditional...or close....road bike dropbar. 

And for many, a deliberate choice is to ride a hint more upright off road due to forces on the rider and less aerodynamic priority due to lower overall speed. 

If a more shallow reach and drop and wider dirtdrop handlebar is chosen...considered the best choice for 'harsher' riding condiitons....unless you don't want to end up with outlier stem length and rise, frame geometry has to be chosen carefully...because the hooks of a dirt drop are ridden the highest percentage of time versus the hooks on a road bike. Further thoughts.


----------



## Rashadabd

I got ya. As Migen’s post points out though, just make sure whatever you settle on can actually fit 650b wheels if that’s your plan. Some of these bikes will, some won’t fit them well. 

Anybody have recommendations for 650b wheelsets?


----------



## Rashadabd

Here's a bit on Boyd's new 650b gravel wheels:

Review: Boyd Jocassee Gravel 650b Carbon Wheelset - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience






They're pricey, but they seem like they could be ideal. They were actually built for gravel events. MasonxHunt have a budget alloy set coming out as well. Not much of a weight penalty and much cheaper. 

https://www.boydcycling.com/shop/gravel-cx/jocassee-gravel-650b-front-wheel/

https://www.huntbikewheels.com/coll...ravel-road-trail-wheelset-1579g-24deep-25wide


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## Migen21

The Boyd is the wheel I was going to go with if the Force 1 Search XR didn't come with the WTB I23's.

I'm not sure how much actual use I'm going to get out of the 650B wheels. If that turns out to be my main wheelset, I my get the Boyd's anyway.

FWIW, the WTB I23 Team gets pretty good reviews, and is much more affordable.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> The Boyd is the wheel I was going to go with if the Force 1 Search XR didn't come with the WTB I23's.
> 
> I'm not sure how much actual use I'm going to get out of the 650B wheels. If that turns out to be my main wheelset, I my get the Boyd's anyway.
> 
> FWIW, the WTB I23 Team gets pretty good reviews, and is much more affordable.


Very helpful, thanks! I can’t find where to buy or price the WTBs. Any leads?


----------



## Rashadabd

Your approach makes sense again. I may just get the Clement Ushaia for 700cc and the MasonxHunt for 650b to start and then if I love 650b setup, I can invest in the Boyd’s down the road. That way I end up with options at an affordable price point.


----------



## Rashadabd

So I really am stuck on one thing here fellas. I can't make up my mind on whether it makes more sense to go with the Apex complete or just start with a frameset. I am 100% certain I want a 2x setup. I also prefer Shimano. 

If I get the complete bike, while I still would probably end up switching out the SRAM 1X system, I would come away with what sounds like a fairly nice set of wheels (the 700cc version of the WTB i23 wheels) and tires (Clement MSO Xplor). That would negate the need to buy two sets like I planned to if I go the frameset route. I would only need to add a 650b setup at some point. I also would get a solid flared handlebar to start with. I would definitely be swapping out the brown bar tape and saddle too though. My guess is I could save even more money with the complete bike by going with a SRAM 2x setup instead of jumping over to Shimano. I could just find a set of shifters on ebay, get a crankset, maybe some cheapr deraileurs and call it a day. FWIW, I now actually think the green frameset could look really nice when set against in black components. If this bike had a different drivetrain, going this route would be a no-brainer, but it doesn't so... 

If I start with the grey frameset, I get a blank canvas, but once I add a component group or even a decent wheelset or two, I am right near the price of the complete bike. That being said, I could get both the Hunt and Ushaiah wheels and two sets of tires that way and piece together a good hydro Ultegra or Ultegra Di2 groupset and still not do too bad. I'm just conflicted about which way to go. The downside to this route is I don't get to ride anything until I am finished building the bike. With the complete, I am riding the entire time I am in the process of upgrading, which is certainly appealing on some level. Any thoughts?


----------



## Rashadabd

FWIW, I can probably get a set of Sram Force 22 Hydro shifters and brakes for around $500-$600 from Jenson USA or a similar shop or a set of Ultegra hydro for like $665. My guess is that I can find them for significantly cheaper if I keep searching. A Praxis Zayante crankset can usually be grabbed for $200-$240 and a Rotor Crankset can usually be found for $400 or so. Cassettes are easy to come by on the cheap and derailleurs aren't that bad either. Maybe the conversion from Sram 1x to 2x wouldn't be that bad and the most economical way to go???? There's also some good deals out there on the older hydro Di2 shifters. Still not sure which way to go.... 

wiggle.com | Shimano RS685 Hydraulic STI Brake/Shifter Set | Gear Levers And Shifters Road

SRAM Force 22 Disc Brake/Shifter | Jenson USA

https://praxiscycles.com/product/zayante-m30/

I could also get the original hydro Di2 shifters for like $380-$465:

Shimano R785 Di2 2x11 Speed STI Shifter | Chain Reaction Cycles

Shimano Di2 ST-R785 Hydro Levers | Jenson USA

https://www.merlincycles.com/shiman...F8uTRjvkJd6ZcA0kOOyvpNBMJYubMncxoCS0oQAvD_BwE


----------



## Rashadabd

The more I look at might options, only two choices make sense.....

If I am going to go mechanical with 2x, I might as well take my time save up the extra money and go with this because I am going to end up spending roughly the same amount anyway:

Norco Bicycles

If I really want a 2x setup and want to go Di2 "at a discount/on the cheap," I should just build my dream gravel rig from scratch or start with the complete Apex model and just treat it as a frameset with handlebars, wheels, tires, stem, and seatpost included. I could then sell off what I can and upgrade from there. I am leaning hard toward the Di2 build I originally had in mind right now, but still need to determine whether to go with the frameset or Apex Complete. Frameset is winning in my head for some reason...


Edit: I think I have made up my mind. I am probably going with the frameset, Di2, Ushuaia 700c wheels and one of these sets of tires:

https://www.wtb.com/collections/gravel-cx/products/riddler-45c
https://grit.cx/reviews/2017/05/review-wtb-riddler-45c-tcs-light-tyres

https://www.wtb.com/collections/gravel-cx/products/resolute
Review: WTB Resolute 42 650b and 700c Tubeless Ready Tires - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience

Review: Panaracer GravelKing SK tyre | road.cc

I feel really good about that build. Feels worthwhile and exciting.


----------



## Hiro11

The Search looks like a cool bike. The geometry looks nice and stable (I love large BB drops for gravel), the frame has all of the right features and those are great wheels and tires. It's definitely towards the "racier" end of gravel bikes.

To me, the biggest benefit of 1x designs is the clutch RD and resulting reduced chain slap. Also, I've found clutch RD + narrow wide chainring pretty much prevents dropping your chain. The main benefit of a 2x setup is that it allows finer gradations in gearing. Dropping a chain on a 2x is more likely but still rare in my experience.


----------



## Migen21

Hiro11 said:


> The Search looks like a cool bike. The geometry looks nice and stable (I love large BB drops for gravel), the frame has all of the right features and those are great wheels and tires. It's definitely towards the "racier" end of gravel bikes.
> 
> To me, the biggest benefit of 1x designs is the clutch RD and resulting reduced chain slap. Also, I've found clutch RD + narrow wide chainring pretty much prevents dropping your chain. The main benefit of a 2x setup is that it allows finer gradations in gearing. Dropping a chain on a 2x is more likely but still rare in my experience.


On my original Search Carbon (2015 non XR model), I could never get the Ultegra 6800 mechanical FD to shift quite right. I talked with the mechanics at the shop, and they had the same problems. They suggested it was probably due to a suboptimal pull angle on the FD cable coming off the bottom bracket. Changing the pin on the derailleur arm didn't make much difference.

When I got frustrated with this, I tried a couple of solutions. I tried a 1X solution using the Ultegra crankset, 42T Wolftooth narrow/wide chainring, and a XT RD with a larger cassette. I had to use the Wolftooth TanPan to compensate for the road shifters pull ratios. This worked, but it wasn't great, and I ended up just converting the bike to Ultegra Di2, which solved all of the problems related to shifting (I use Di2 on all of my other bikes).

With the 2X setups, I never had any trouble with dropping chains (the Search has a nice chain keeper on it), and I never saw any evidence of chain slap, but it was something that always worried me. 

It will be interesting to ride this new bike with the Force 1 build. It will be a good opportunity to ride a real 1X setup (rather than a kluge), and my first time riding SRAM.

My worry about it is, I'm fairly cadence sensitive. On my road bikes my power band s between 82 and 95 RPM. I can go higher, but the HR goes up pretty fast. I can go higher, but at my cruising speed I like to be at about 85-90 RPM. I'm a little worried about the 1X setup in that way (large gaps). It will be interesting to see how well I adapt to this.

I'm quite prepared for the reality this experiment being a failure, and converting the bike to 2x Ultegra 8000 (probably Di2), but I'm going to give it a full season of riding before I decide.


----------



## Migen21

Rashadabd said:


> Very helpful, thanks! I can’t find where to buy or price the WTBs. Any leads?


I hadn't shopped for built wheels, but you can buy the rims directly from WTB for ~$78 each. This would allow you to go with a custom build and spec whatever hubs and spokes you want. 

https://www.wtb.com/products/frequency-team#shopify-product-reviews


----------



## Migen21

Hiro11 said:


> The Search looks like a cool bike. The geometry looks nice and stable (I love large BB drops for gravel), the frame has all of the right features and those are great wheels and tires. It's definitely towards the "racier" end of gravel bikes.


Just FYI, there are two Search models. The standard "Search" and the "Search XR". The XR is more of a Monster Cross build. The standard Search is limited to about 38mm tires. The XR has the dropped chainstay design that allows for much wider rear tires. 

I really wish they had not used the same name for both bikes.


----------



## Rashadabd

I think this is my final build list:

Frame: Search XR

Drivetrain: Shimano Di2 Hydro (probably R785 Shifters and 8000 series derailleurs). 11/32 cassette

Wheels: Clement Ushuaia

Tires: Torn between Panaracer Gravel King SK and WTB Resolute. Leaning toward the Resolute

Saddle: Shimano Pro Stealth

Crankset: Praxis Zayante 48/32

Handlebars: Undecided, but probably the Salsa Cowbell 2 or 3 or something similar. 

Stem: Undecided, but down to Ritchey, WCS C220, Ritchey Superlogic, Zipp Service Course SL, or Zipp SL Speed

Seatpost: Undecided, but down to Ritchey WCS Carbon Link Flexlogic or Zipp SL Speed Seatpost

I am starting to love this bike already. I plan to start buying parts sometime after the holidays. Thank you for the recommendations and thoughts.


----------



## Migen21

Marc said:


> $4,100USD for a 1x Force bike...Yeeeeouch. I didn't spend that much more on my bespoked Di2 Ti gravel rig last spring. SRAM pricing lives in bizarro world.
> 
> Pretty racy numbers, although granted I never shop XL size frames.


Just FYI, I have a good relationship with my local shop. I don't pay MSRP for bikes.


----------



## Migen21

Rashadabd said:


> I think this is my final build list:
> 
> Frame: Search XR
> 
> Drivetrain: Shimano Di2 Hydro (probably R785 Shifters and 8000 series derailleurs).
> 
> Wheels: Clement Ushuaia
> 
> Tires: Torn between Panaracer Gravel King SK and WTB Resolute. Leaning toward the Resolute
> 
> Saddle: Shimano Pro Stealth
> 
> Handlebars: Undecided
> 
> Stem: Undecided, but down to Ritchey, WCS C220, Ritchey Superlogic, Zipp Service Course SL, or Zipp SL Speed
> 
> Seatpost: Undecided, but down to Ritchey WCS CArbon Link Flexlogic or Zipp SL Speed Seatpost
> 
> I am starting to love this bike already. I plan to start buying parts sometime after the holidays.


This looks great. That is almost identical to the build of my original search (it was 6870 Di2), all the way down to the Ritchey components (which are great!).

Do you do your own wrenching? Or are you going to have a shop build it?

I think you can't go wrong with either of those tires. I've become enamored with the gumwall aesthetic, so for me, between those two, i'd prefer the WTB. I personally chose the WTB ByWay for my 650b tire. I have a set of the 40mm Gravel King SK's and some Compass Barlow Pass as options as well.


----------



## factory feel

Migen21 said:


> On my original Search Carbon (2015 non XR model), I could never get the Ultegra 6800 mechanical FD to shift quite right. I talked with the mechanics at the shop, and they had the same problems. They suggested it was probably due to a suboptimal pull angle on the FD cable coming off the bottom bracket. Changing the pin on the derailleur arm didn't make much difference.


I ran into this on a 2006 scott cr1 frame. It took a lot of effort to get the derailleur to move from the small ring then after it moved a slight amount it moved a bunch all at once making the trim adjustment impossible when on the small ring.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> This looks great. That is almost identical to the build of my original search (it was 6870 Di2), all the way down to the Ritchey components (which are great!).
> 
> Do you do your own wrenching? Or are you going to have a shop build it?
> 
> I think you can't go wrong with either of those tires. I've become enamored with the gumwall aesthetic, so for me, between those two, i'd prefer the WTB. I personally chose the WTB ByWay for my 650b tire. I have a set of the 40mm Gravel King SK's and some Compass Barlow Pass as options as well.


Thanks man. I feel good about it. It's a relatively affordable way for me to end up with the gravel bike I have always wanted. I will probably collect parts over a period of time and then have the shop do it. I just frustrate myself trying to do my own wrenching, but I often do some of the minor stuff. 

I really like the gumwall thing too on gravel bikes, especially when combined with the yellow highlights on the grey frameset or the brown on the green Apex model. I like where your bike is headed as well.


----------



## tangerineowl

@11spd,

When I put my bike together I chose a frameset that had a 10mm shorter reach and a 10mm higher stack than my roadbike. That was my thought after doing a lot of reading on the subject. 

Not using the Cowbell (using the Satori bar), but I do understand what you mean about dirt-drops (widely flared bars) and having the bar height much higher so that you're hands are in the drops most of the time.

I do a lot of road riding with my gravel bike (I ride to the gravel/singletrack places), so my bars (in the drops) are only positioned about 10mm higher than my roadbike position.

Also, I am very comfortable with riding on the road and in the gravel in the drops; could be as my flexibility can handle it. However when I'm just exploring around on the gravel bike I mostly ride the hoods, so I can look around at the scenery. When the slopes head down, I ride the drops for the better control.


----------



## 11spd

tangerineowl said:


> @11spd,
> 
> When I put my bike together I chose a frameset that had a 10mm shorter reach and a 10mm higher stack than my roadbike. That was my thought after doing a lot of reading on the subject.
> 
> Not using the Cowbell (using the Satori bar), but I do understand what you mean about dirt-drops (widely flared bars) and having the bar height much higher so that you're hands are in the drops most of the time.
> 
> I do a lot of road riding with my gravel bike (I ride to the gravel/singletrack places), so my bars (in the drops) are only positioned about 10mm higher than my roadbike position.
> 
> Also, I am very comfortable with riding on the road and in the gravel in the drops; could be as my flexibility can handle it. However when I'm just exploring around on the gravel bike I mostly ride the hoods, so I can look around at the scenery. When the slopes head down, I ride the drops for the better control.


Specs for your Satori X handlebar are...drop = 116mm and reach 56mm.

Spec's for a conventional compact road bar are....drop = 125mm and reach 75mm.

By going 10mm shorter on reach you end up almost 30mm shorter cockpit compared to your road bike.

Net drop difference is about 20mm factoring in your 10mm taller stack with slightly less shallow Satori drop bar. If you ride in your hooks as a nominal position on the dirt you are riding almost 4 inches lower than the hoods on your road bike. That's quite a bit....for a 'standard' hammer position. 

Hey, if you can hammer mile after mile on gravel 4 inches below your road bike hood position cool. No doubt this is an aggressive position even if good flexibility.

Thanks for sharing your experience.


----------



## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> I think this is my final build list:
> 
> Frame: Search XR
> 
> Drivetrain: Shimano Di2 Hydro (probably R785 Shifters and 8000 series derailleurs). 11/32 cassette
> 
> Wheels: Clement Ushuaia
> 
> Tires: Torn between Panaracer Gravel King SK and WTB Resolute. Leaning toward the Resolute
> 
> Saddle: Shimano Pro Stealth
> 
> Crankset: Praxis Zayante 48/32
> 
> Handlebars: Undecided, but probably the Salsa Cowbell 2 or 3 or something similar.
> 
> Stem: Undecided, but down to Ritchey, WCS C220, Ritchey Superlogic, Zipp Service Course SL, or Zipp SL Speed
> 
> Seatpost: Undecided, but down to Ritchey WCS Carbon Link Flexlogic or Zipp SL Speed Seatpost
> 
> I am starting to love this bike already. I plan to start buying parts sometime after the holidays. Thank you for the recommendations and thoughts.


It is a solid build.

Re: tires. The new-for-2017 "700x43" GK SKs measure about true to size IME as opposed to the old "700x40" that didn't. The Panaracers are a bit of a pain to ghetto tubeless due to the reg bead--you will not mount them without a compressor, and even then you have to remove the valve core. They're the reigning favorite among just about everyone, great mix of speed and traction and durability. Although they, like many treads similar to it, spit gravel backwards-so pacelining is going to get a face full of rocks for whoever is following you. TCS tires like WTB or Vittoria ofc mount easier--OTOH they're nowhere near as popular. Also the Panaracers are cheap--for a great tire.


The R785 levers have one big caveat to be aware of, and one small one. The smallsie is that they only have one e-tube port each, as opposed to the Ultegra parts. If you want aero bars with a TT shifter button, you'll need the 5-port junction. The other catch is ergonomics, some people love them and some don't. Coming from Campag I love them. Usually in setup the best is using all the free-stroke adjustment there is.



Migen21 said:


> Just FYI, I have a good relationship with my local shop. I don't pay MSRP for bikes.


Yea, well after tax--you're still probably going to pay about that. My shop perks me too...but after tax and side-expenses (like pedals and cages), the end-bill comes out close to sticker.


----------



## Migen21

Rashadabd said:


> Thanks man. I feel good about it. It's a relatively affordable way for me to end up with the gravel bike I have always wanted. I will probably collect parts over a period of time and then have the shop do it. I just frustrate myself trying to do my own wrenching, but I often do some of the minor stuff.
> 
> I really like the gumwall thing too on gravel bikes, especially when combined with the yellow highlights on the grey frameset or the brown on the green Apex model. I like where your bike is headed as well.


In case you needed another option to consider, you can get a 3D printed front derailleur mount that will accomodate the XT Di2 Front Derailluer. This would give you a lot more flexibility in terms of gear ratios, and the benefits of the XT Mountain Bike derailluers.

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/norco-bikes

In case anyone hasn't seen this video, it pretty much covers a lot of details about the Search XR, including the steel variants (and the previously mentioned 3D printed Di2 derailleur mount).


----------



## Rashadabd

Marc said:


> It is a solid build.
> 
> Re: tires. The new-for-2017 "700x43" GK SKs measure about true to size IME as opposed to the old "700x40" that didn't. The Panaracers are a bit of a pain to ghetto tubeless due to the reg bead--you will not mount them without a compressor, and even then you have to remove the valve core. They're the reigning favorite among just about everyone, great mix of speed and traction and durability. Although they, like many treads similar to it, spit gravel backwards-so pacelining is going to get a face full of rocks for whoever is following you. TCS tires like WTB or Vittoria ofc mount easier--OTOH they're nowhere near as popular. Also the Panaracers are cheap--for a great tire.
> 
> 
> The R785 levers have one big caveat to be aware of, and one small one. The smallsie is that they only have one e-tube port each, as opposed to the Ultegra parts. If you want aero bars with a TT shifter button, you'll need the 5-port junction. The other catch is ergonomics, some people love them and some don't. Coming from Campag I love them. Usually in setup the best is using all the free-stroke adjustment there is.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, well after tax--you're still probably going to pay about that. My shop perks me too...but after tax and side-expenses (like pedals and cages), the end-bill comes out close to sticker.


Helpful insight, thanks.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> In case you needed another option to consider, you can get a 3D printed front derailleur mount that will accomodate the XT Di2 Front Derailluer. This would give you a lot more flexibility in terms of gear ratios, and the benefits of the XT Mountain Bike derailluers.
> 
> https://www.shapeways.com/shops/norco-bikes
> 
> In case anyone hasn't seen this video, it pretty much covers a lot of details about the Search XR, including the steel variants (and the previously mentioned 3D printed Di2 derailleur mount).


Interesting, I will keep that in mind in case I don’t like what I start out with. I dig the video, looks like a fun ride.


----------



## Rashadabd

New lightweight Enve gravel wheelset. It is an EXTREMELY expensive set, especially for something that is going to get put through the paces on a gravel course. They are super light though. 

Press Release: Enve announces M525 G "Gravel" Carbon Wheelset - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience


----------



## Migen21

I've never tried Enve MTB wheels (which these basically are), but I tried a set of their new fandangled tubeless only (hookless bead - non ERTRO compliant) SES AR 4.5 road wheels last year on my RM-01, and ended up returning them.

It was nearly impossible to mount a tire on them, even the most install friendly tubeless tires, without using a tire lever and quite a bit of force. We have enough cold, wet, crappy weather here that I'd prefer not to have to deal with that in the event I have a problem out on the road. 

I'll check my local shop and see if they have any experience with the Enve MTB tires and if they suffer the same problem.

At this point, there is a near zero chance I'd spend that kind of money on wheels for the gravel bike.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> I've never tried Enve MTB wheels (which these basically are), but I tried a set of their new fandangled tubeless only (hookless bead - non ERTRO compliant) SES AR 4.5 road wheels last year on my RM-01, and ended up returning them.
> 
> It was nearly impossible to mount a tire on them, even the most install friendly tubeless tires, without using a tire lever and quite a bit of force. We have enough cold, wet, crappy weather here that I'd prefer not to have to deal with that in the event I have a problem out on the road.
> 
> I'll check my local shop and see if they have any experience with the Enve MTB tires and if they suffer the same problem.
> 
> At this point, there is a near zero chance I'd spend that kind of money on wheels for the gravel bike.


Those are waaay overpriced IMO. You can get a number of wheelsets that are a decent weight at a fraction of the price. It seems these would only be for someone that wanted Enve for the sake of having Enve wheels. I highly doubt there is any performance advantage.


----------



## Migen21

On the subject of cockpits...

This is the Norco Search I'm replacing.










These are 44cm Ritchey WCS bars. The stem here is a Ritchey WCS 120mm neg. 6 degrees with 1.5cm of spacers.

You can see that I have the bars rolled back a bit and the brake hoods pretty far up on the curve. This is my preferred setup with these bars, but I spend about 95% of my time on the hoods here. I would probably use the drops more, but with this setup, they are nearly unusable due to the bar angle and lack of flare and short extensions.

This is why I want to go with a bar with some flare, a very shallow drop, and longer extensions on the bottom. 

It will give me a better, more accessible hand position in the drops.


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> On the subject of cockpits...
> 
> This is the Norco Search I'm replacing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are 44cm Ritchey WCS bars. The stem here is a Ritchey WCS 120mm neg. 6 degrees with 1.5cm of spacers.
> 
> You can see that I have the bars rolled back a bit and the brake hoods pretty far up on the curve. This is my preferred setup with these bars, but I spend about 95% of my time on the hoods here. I would probably use the drops more, but with this setup, they are nearly unusable due to the bar angle and lack of flare and short extensions.
> 
> This is why I want to go with a bar with some flare, a very shallow drop, and longer extensions on the bottom.
> 
> It will give me a better, more accessible hand position in the drops.


That is very similar to my setup on my road bike (2017 Fuji SL Disc). I could probably push it a bit further, but I like where the hoods are for longer rides. I am hoping the flares bars and relaxed geometry help me out a little bit as well. There are pictures of my road bike over in the Fuji thread.


----------



## 11spd

You must be a very strong rider....a TdF level saddle to bar drop on the dirt no less where road assault takes a greater toll on fatigue.

To me and will only share my opinion speaking frankly, your set up is a kluge. A compensation for too aggressive a fit whereby you roll your bar and levers back and render your hooks unusable. Nothing wrong with that handlebar....you simply have it too low and too far away. . A more appropriate fit...again, my opinion, even with that particular handlebar is..start over. Level top of handlebar....level hoods...which will appropriately provide more grasp on the drops and make them comfortable per design intent. If you choose that short a head tube, a shorter riser stem will put the handlebar where all positions will be comfortable.
My opinion of course having been at this for too many decades.



Migen21 said:


> On the subject of cockpits...
> 
> This is the Norco Search I'm replacing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are 44cm Ritchey WCS bars. The stem here is a Ritchey WCS 120mm neg. 6 degrees with 1.5cm of spacers.
> 
> You can see that I have the bars rolled back a bit and the brake hoods pretty far up on the curve. This is my preferred setup with these bars, but I spend about 95% of my time on the hoods here. I would probably use the drops more, but with this setup, they are nearly unusable due to the bar angle and lack of flare and short extensions.
> 
> This is why I want to go with a bar with some flare, a very shallow drop, and longer extensions on the bottom.
> 
> It will give me a better, more accessible hand position in the drops.


----------



## Migen21

My bike came in today. It's not built yet, but I got a look at the bars, and they look to be fine for my needs.

I'll leave them on while I'm assessing the 1x setup. I'll make a determination on changing them after a good long evaluation period.


----------



## Migen21

11spd said:


> You must be a very strong rider....a TdF level saddle to bar drop on the dirt no less where road assault takes a greater toll on fatigue.
> 
> To me and will only share my opinion speaking frankly, your set up is a kluge. A compensation for too aggressive a fit whereby you roll your bar and levers back and render your hooks unusable. Nothing wrong with that handlebar....you simply have it too low and too far away. . A more appropriate fit...again, my opinion, even with that particular handlebar is..start over. Level top of handlebar....level hoods...which will appropriately provide more grasp on the drops and make them comfortable per design intent. If you choose that short a head tube, a shorter riser stem will put the handlebar where all positions will be comfortable.
> My opinion of course having been at this for too many decades.


You are full of sh!t.

You have never seen me on my bike, and have no idea what my proportions are.

I'm not a novice rider. I have similar contact points on all of my bikes and have over 20k miles on them over the last two years.

My fit is fine.

This kind of garbage is why i'm reticent to post pictures of my bikes (or anything personal) on forums like this. I have no interest in the opinions of "experts" who think they know everything and proceed to espouse that knowledge on everyone else.

Welcome to my ignore list. It's going to be lonely there (you are the only one I've ever put on it).

Edit to add: Can we please not derail this otherwise awesome thread?


----------



## 11spd

Migen21 said:


> You are full of sh!t.
> 
> You have never seen me on my bike, and have no idea what my proportions are.
> 
> I'm not a novice rider. I have similar contact points on all of my bikes and have over 20k miles on them over the last two years.
> 
> My fit is fine.
> 
> This kind of garbage is why i'm reticent to post pictures of my bikes (or anything personal) on forums like this. I have no interest in the opinions of "experts" who think they know everything and proceed to espouse that knowledge on everyone else.
> 
> Welcome to my ignore list. It's going to be lonely there (you are the only one I've ever put on it).
> 
> Edit to add: Can we please not derail this otherwise awesome thread?


Really?...lol. Your bar is set up is like a novice wannabe racer. One of the most amateurish set ups I have ever seen. I love the dichotomy of insulting me and asking the thread to not be distrupted. Of course it won't be unless you want to defend your hook position which is virtually unusable. Handlebar set up 101. Pure compensation for a bad fit. You don't know what you are doing. I see why you don't want to post your bikes.


If you had a clue and want to ride 4-6" of drop on the gravel, this is how to set up a pro level gravel bike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7kkkzJFID0


----------



## Rashadabd

Migen21 said:


> My bike came in today. It's not built yet, but I got a look at the bars, and they look to be fine for my needs.
> 
> I'll leave them on while I'm assessing the 1x setup. I'll make a determination on changing them after a good long evaluation period.


Congrats man! Excited to see it and read what you think.


----------



## Rashadabd

Fellas let’s just say fit is one of those things that intelligent minds can differ on. There are different approaches taken by different folks all of the time. If it’s working for Migen, nobody is really in the position to say it’s completely “wrong” based on an internet photo. First, it’s his bike and he can ride it however he wants. 2nd, people approach fitting differently. For instance, some fitters/riders swear by the perception that a tall stack of spacers is a total no no and unsafe and a sign that you either need a different stem, to have yours flipped, or that you are on the wrong size bike, etc. I also think it’s fair to say all of us should assume that not everyone wants to hear our opinions on every choice they make all of the time and be sensitive to that. My two cents. Carry on.


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> Fellas let’s just say fit is one of those things that intelligent minds can differ on. There are different approaches taken by different folks all of the time. If it’s working for Migen, nobody is really in the position to say it’s completely “wrong” based on an internet photo. First, it’s his bike and he can ride it however he wants. 2nd, people approach fitting differently. For instance, some fitters/riders swear by the perception that a tall stack of spacers is a total no no and unsafe and a sign that you either need a different stem, to have yours flipped, or that you are on the wrong size bike, etc. I also think it’s fair to say all of us should assume that not everyone wants to hear our opinions on every choice they make all of the time and be sensitive to that. My two cents. Carry on.


Among amateur riders, there is great variance. Not among better riders. They understand the dynamic I explained. As to wanting to hear the truth, you are correct. Many don't. It makes sense. Intransigent thinking and inability to take constructive criticism is a hallmark of doing things wrong. We learn by one another.
For example, you are not overtly agreeing with me. This means you don't know the difference between right or wrong...or...you choose an intellectually less honest approach of communication by your post above. We are all grown adults here and should be able to take some constructive criticism. If you can't you are stuck in the rut Mig is...with his drop ends pointing almost straight down and with his hoods canted back which places undo pressure on the ulner nerve.


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Among amateur riders, there is great variance. Not among better riders. They understand the dynamic I explained. As to wanting to hear the truth, you are correct. Many don't. It makes sense. Intransigent thinking and inability to take constructive criticism is a hallmark of doing things wrong. We learn by one another.
> For example, you are not overtly agreeing with me. This means you don't know the difference between right or wrong...or...you choose an intellectually less honest approach of communication by your post above. We are all grown adults here and should be able to take some constructive criticism. If you can't you are stuck in the rut Mig is...with his drop ends pointing almost straight down and with his hoods canted back which places undo pressure on the ulner nerve.


My man 11spd here you go doing what you do best.... That's simply not true man. I have seen so many setups on so many bikes. From pros to top amateur racers, there's a lot of variety. There just is no such thing as the agreed upon one right fit. Sorry, but there's just not. There are crazy things one should never do, but no one right way. Moreover, we're all amateurs here bro. None of us are getting paid to do this stuff, including you. 

Your other comments bring me to a bigger point though. You have to stop doing this man. This same outcome occurs in pretty much every thread you participate in on here. I think you are a sharp guy and that you really do have something to add to the discussion sometimes, but your overly opinionated, self-righteous, offensive, know-it-all delivery often undermines and masks that. It simply doesn't take long for people to grow tired of your routine and conversation style. To put it plainly, it ruins threads over and over again. So please, for the sake of all of us, just stop taking things too far and feeling like you need to convince the rest of us that you are on expert on every topic we discuss. And you have no idea about what I know and don't know. Let's just chat about what we each like about bikes and gravel racing. Can't that be enough? Either way, take that as a little intellectually honest constructive criticism....


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> My man 11spd here you go doing what you do best.... That's simply not true man. I have seen so many setups on so many bikes. From pros to top amateur racers, there's a lot of variety. There just is no such thing as the agreed upon one right fit. Sorry, but there's just not. There are crazy things one should never do, but no one right way. Moreover, we're all amateurs here bro. None of us are getting paid to do this stuff, including you.
> 
> Your other comments bring me to a bigger point though. You have to stop doing this man. This same outcome occurs in pretty much every thread you participate in on here. I think you are a sharp guy and that you really do have something to add to the discussion sometimes, but your overly opinionated, self-righteous, offensive, know-it-all delivery often undermines and masks that. It simply doesn't take long for people to grow tired of your routine and conversation style. To put it plainly, it ruins threads over and over again. So please, for the sake of all of us, just stop taking things too far and feeling like you need to convince the rest of us that you are on expert on every topic we discuss. And you have no idea about what I know and don't know. Let's just chat about what we each like about bikes and gravel racing. Can't that be enough? Either way, take that as a little intellectually honest constructive criticism....


So you want a sloppy interpretation of the truth Rash. We don't agree. I believe at any level there is opportunity to improve. Btw, it is you who stuck his nose in. You are adding insult to injury. I am merely pointing out that Mig's bar position is compensation for being too stretched out. He is running massive drop and he rolls his hoods back to decrease his reach which badly compromises his drop position. You need to look inward brother. You are criticizing me for speaking the truth. Read that again Rash. You have the audacity...a guy who doesn't even build his own bikes...to criticize me for being right. Take away from all of this? You must be a democrat...lol.


----------



## Migen21

I'm going to consider this thread off the rails and move on.

Congratulations 11sp! Nice work.


----------



## 11spd

Migen21 said:


> I'm going to consider this thread off the rails and move on.


Mig, what I suggest is, PM Rash and have a private conversation. I believe you are on same page.


----------



## Rashadabd

Rashadabd said:


> My man 11spd here you go doing what you do best.... That's simply not true man. I have seen so many setups on so many bikes. From pros to top amateur racers, there's a lot of variety. There just is no such thing as the agreed upon one right fit. Sorry, but there's just not. There are crazy things one should never do, but no one right way. Moreover, we're all amateurs here bro. None of us are getting paid to do this stuff, including you.
> 
> Your other comments bring me to a bigger point though. You have to stop doing this man. This same outcome occurs in pretty much every thread you participate in on here. I think you are a sharp guy and that you really do have something to add to the discussion sometimes, but your overly opinionated, self-righteous, offensive, know-it-all delivery often undermines and masks that. It simply doesn't take long for people to grow tired of your routine and conversation style. To put it plainly, it ruins threads over and over again. So please, for the sake of all of us, just stop taking things too far and feeling like you need to convince the rest of us that you are on expert on every topic we discuss. And you have no idea about what I know and don't know. Let's just chat about what we each like about bikes and gravel racing. Can't that be enough? Either way, take that as a little intellectually honest constructive criticism....


You're right, I absolutely stuck my nose in (you're still doing it by the way) to try to salvage my new favorite thread and to prevent it from suffering the same fate others you have participated in have. The point you are trying to make (right or wrong) often isn't the problem, it's the way you go about trying to make your point and how you attempt to force your opinion on others that's waaaay abrasive and offensive. That and how you always are committed to a belief that the way you see a topic is the absolutely only way it can be done or experienced appropriately. If we are going to use politics as an analogy, we'd have to assume you are part of the Trump White House.... Let's get back on topic...


----------



## Migen21

Just rename this thread (and all the others) "It's all about 11spd". Save everyone else the trouble of bothering to read them.

It's quite a shame really


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Mig, what I suggest is, PM Rash and have a private conversation. I believe you are on same page.


No dude, the thread was the discussion. Your behavior has undermined another good discussion. You reread that and reflect for a minute. Where are the moderators when you need them?!?!


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> You're right, I absolutely stuck my nose in (you're still doing it by the way) to try to salvage my new favorite thread and to prevent it from suffering fate others you have participated in have. The point you are trying to make (right or wrong) often isn't the problem, it's the way you go about trying to make your point and how you attempt to force your opinion on others that's waaaay abrasive and offensive. That and how you always are committed to a belief that the way you see a topic is the absolutely only way it can be done or experienced appropriately. If we are going to use politics as an analogy, we'd have to assume you are part of the Trump White House.... Let's get back on topic...


Sorry Rash. News flash. You are not only wrong to criticize my comments but you aren't the style police. Not your forum bro. Now I will share something with you. I am a fair man and you may understand this comports with my sense of correctness. I don't want to be disruptive. And something may even surprise you. I don't like rancor. But....if a guy with your knowledge or lack thereof of bicycles has the audacity to criticize me when you are flat wrong, I am going to call you out on it. That's all Rash. Pretty simple construct. You are wrong and I am right and yet you hide behind the excuse of decorum to justify your pitiful criticism. Keep it coming self appointed style policeman. Style without substance isn't why we are here. You may not care about the truth but I do.


----------



## Rashadabd

11spd said:


> Sorry Rash. News flash. You are not only wrong to criticize my comments but you aren't the style police. Not your forum bro. Now I will share something with you. I am a fair man and you may understand this comports with my sense of correctness. I don't want to be disruptive. And something may even surprise you. I don't like rancor. But....if a guy with your knowledge or lack thereof of bicycles has the audacity to criticize me when you are flat wrong, I am going to call you out on it. That's all Rash. Pretty simple construct. You are wrong and I am right and yet you hide behind the excuse of decorum to justify your pitiful criticism. Keep it coming self appointed style policeman. Style without substance isn't why we are here. You may not care about the truth but I do.


This is probably my last post, so I am going to try to help you out. There is something wrong with you buddy. The way you speak to people and feel the need to insult everyone that doesn't 100% agree with you coupled with your need to constantly believe that you are the only one that truly understands what's being discussed and attack everyone that doesn't sit back and bask in your presence is not healthy or normal fella. This will continue to happen to you on this site and in life unless you stop behaving like this. You are not always right, nobody is. You clearly do not know everything there is to know about cycling and the rest of us on here see that. The only person you are fooling is yourself and the only thing your behavior does is drive the people you appear to come on here to connect with to dislike you. Why keep doing it? Didn't you learn anything from getting banned the first time? Apparently not......


----------



## 11spd

Migen21 said:


> Just rename this thread (and all the others) "It's all about 11spd". Save everyone else the trouble of bothering to read them.
> 
> It's quite a shame really


You are thin skinned Mig. You have an 18 handicap handlebar set up bro. I was trying to help you. I explained it precisely. Some are a little slow at geometry. I am not. You should thank me but instead you got your feelings hurt. We could do this Mig. We could list a number of different topics. What do you want to talk about? I am sure there is a topic you know more about than me. It just isn't handlebar set up bro. Shouldn't be a big deal and if you were to actually apply my advice, you would be a much happier rider. There isn't a single pro or good amateur that rides with a hook position like you do which offers no support to the hands and body without undo tension in your hands...like sliding down a rope...which adds tension to your upper body which isn't good for power production or injury avoidance. With handlebar design there is synergy between hood ramp angle and hook positon for adequate support of the hand because this geometry is intrinsic to bar shape.


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> This is probably my last post, so I am going to try to help you out. There is something wrong with you buddy. The way you speak to people and feel the need to insult everyone that doesn't 100% agree with you coupled with your need to constantly believe that you are the only one that truly understands what's being discussed and attack everyone that doesn't sit back and bask in your presence is not healthy or normal fella. This will continue to happen to you on this site and in life unless you stop behaving like this. You are not always right, nobody is. You clearly do not know everything there is to know about cycling and the rest of us on here see that. The only person you are fooling is yourself and the only thing your behavior does is drive the people you appear to come on here to connect with to dislike you. Why keep doing it? Didn't you learn anything from getting banned the first time? Apparently not......


Come on Rash. For goodness sakes, you don't even build your own bikes. Rash, I was building bikes when I was 10 years old...combining parts from different 10 speeds. Of course we aren't on the same level. It is you who drew this thing out ad nausseum bro. I was simply responding to your silly and fallacious assertions.


----------



## Rashadabd

Just for kicks and giggles, former TdF champion Bradley Wiggins is one of the pros that sets his bars up pretty similarly to Migen's. I highly recommend you stop insulting people over things you are assuming and/or making up in your head.


----------



## Rashadabd




----------



## Marc

Rashadabd said:


> Just for kicks and giggles, former TdF champion Bradley Wiggins is one of the pros that sets his bars up pretty similarly to Migen's. I highly recommend you stop insulting people over things you are assuming and/or making up in your head.



Just because professionals ride the wrong size frame, doesn't mean anyone else should.

But this is all OT.


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> Just for kicks and giggles, former TdF champion Bradley Wiggins is one of the pros that sets his bars up pretty similarly to Migen's. I highly recommend you stop insulting people over things you are assuming and/or making up in your head.
> 
> View attachment 321430


You can't be serious....to quote John McEnroe. But in fairness, your first cogent post in a while.


----------



## Rashadabd

Marc said:


> Just because professionals ride the wrong size frame, doesn't mean anyone else should.
> 
> But this is all OT.


You are dang right we are off topic. That’s my whole point. Reread the last exchanges, 11spd indicated the setup was an amateur folly, those pics prove he’s dead wrong and contrary to his assertion, a top pro rides in a similar position after multiple sessions with his pro fitters. No it doesn’t mean this is the ideal for everyone, but it is evidence that it can be for some (even pros) and that 11spd doesn’t know everything he thinks he does. All of which is long winded way of saying the initial insults, the whole exchange, and the damage done to the thread were all completely unnecessary. Take care gentlemen.


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> You are dang right we are off topic. That’s my whole point. Reread the last exchanges, 11spd indicated the setup was an amateur folly, those pics prove he’s dead wrong and contrary to his assertion, a top pro rides in a similar position after multiple sessions with his pro fitters. No it doesn’t mean this is the ideal for everyone, but it is evidence that it can be for some (even pros) and that 11spd doesn’t know everything he thinks he does. All of which is long winded way of saying the initial insults, the whole exchange, and the damage done to the thread were all completely unnecessary. Take care gentlemen.


Yes, your intolerance of my position was completely unnecessary. You blew it up buddy. I was merely defending my position.

Now Mig and Rash, can we have a good natured belly laugh about this? Can you admit it is at least a little bit funny?


----------



## 11spd

Going full circle with all the pedantic detail about type of frame, BB, wheelset, tire selection, 1 x or 2 x chainring(s)....electric groupset....almost endless details, bike nuts like to think about..each with tradeoffs...what is the single most important element of new bike selection? Bike geometry. It rules the riding experience more than any single factor. Ergonomics. The ability for a rider to efficiently produce power with consideration to aerodynamics and have some level of comfort after hours in the saddle with the bike pushing back on the rider up through the road exacerbated by rough road conditions.

So frame geometry selection is king. Further confusion not acknowledged in this thread? Off paved road riding differs in severity. There is even correlation among better riders in terms of cockpit aggressiveness and level of road assault relative to terrain. An example is..for cruising groomed gravel trails and smooth single track, for a gravel bike, there is nothing wrong with a conventional road bar. Riding the hoods or drops in this relatively benign environment is fine. A more or less conventional dropbar is sold on most gravel and endurance geometry road bikes. What do guys who like the rougher stuff prefer?....the bump skiers of the offroad set who may still prefer a drop bar for its allowance to change positions? What is called a dirtdrop handlebar. A dirtdrop bar has very different geometry and purpose. A dirtdrop nominal riding position is in the drops and not on the hoods. This 'dramatically' changes what geometry frame is selected for a gravel bike and at the 'core' of choosing a given gravel bike. What kind of riding are you going to do, which dictates what handlebar (within a range) you are going to choose which dictates what frame geometry you are going to choose to put you in the more efficient position for a given terrain. Its a bit complicated but not really with a bit of study in spite of the ridiculous response when perhaps the most important and misunderstood subject germane to buying a gravel bike is broached.

Now on to Mig's favorite topic, his handlebar position. I believe I explained the dynamic at hand pretty clearly. But Mig, Rash and perhaps a few others silently observing may still have some questions. So a bit further discussion. People have preference when it comes to ergonomics. I sure do as well. I used to think convention was wrong....or not to be regarded with any sanctity but I have become more enlightened with time. Paradigms and conventions come about for a reason. But they also morph with time as well.

Take a look at the following GCN video. Simon who is a brilliant guy, very strong ex-racer and my favorite GCN presenter who is just a smidge shorter than me and a hint skinnier...he gets it right all the time. A real credit to the sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P-QynImMuo

In the video, Simon talks about the evolution of handlebar shape and very suscintly explains the shape differences. Modern handlebar shape has evolved. Even Lance who rode a 'traditional' shape handlebar for most of his career changed later to what Simon calls a 'variable' shape handlebar which is now embraced as the most popular 'convention'.
So, what is wrong with Mig's position? He is mixing metaphors a bit. To coin another, he is robbing Peter to pay Paul. How so? Because he slides down his shifters on a 'traditonal' shape handlebar to create the same hood to bar ramp transition of a 'variable' handlebar shape and then rolls the whole bar back. Why is this bad? Because it rotates the hooks down. They offer no support without hand tension. Even more critical on the dirt.

What riders found over time, was many....Simon, myself, aging Lance...countless riders prefer the most recent variable radiused handlebar. This allows for cake and eat it too. You don't have to rob Peter to pay Paul because the hook is correctly positioned when the bar ramp is horizontal to the ground for flat transition to the hood which takes pressure off the heel of the palm. All about force distribution...even more critical with an aggressive set up with more weight on the hands hopefully offset by higher pedaling forces.

But full circle back. Dirtbars 'completely' change the landscape in term of what frame geometry a rider chooses which incidentally are a popular retrofit on mtb's. Why are dirt drops a bit more friendly to installing on a mtb versus an endurance based gravel bike geometry? Because the top tube of a mtb is typically 30mm longer than a road bike geometry for a given rider. Stack is almost a wash and if anything a bit higher than a road bike which is also favorable to a dirtdrop handlebar. Dirtdrop handlebars have shorter reach by design which is complementary to longer top tube. What is a dirtdrop handlebar really? A dirtdrop is a hybrid....the offspring if a flatbar mated with a conventional road dropbar.

So, it starts with...what kind of roads I am going to ride? This more or less dictates what handlebar may work best for the job....more conventional dropbar sold on most gravel and endurance bikes?....flatbar aka traditional mtb?...or dirtdrop handlebar which has gained popularity for rougher road riding....really a synthesis of both.

Important thing is, each handlebar type pretty dramatically affects what geometry frame a given rider chooses therefore critical to the buying consideration.

Hope that makes sense and FWIW, that is the truth better riders seek.


----------



## factory feel

11spd said:


> Going full circle with all the pedantic detail about type of frame, BB, wheelset, tire selection, 1 x or 2 x chainring(s)....electric groupset....almost endless details, bike nuts like to think about..each with tradeoffs...what is the single most important element of new bike selection? Bike geometry. It rules the riding experience more than any single factor. Ergonomics. The ability for a rider to efficiently produce power with consideration to aerodynamics and have some level of comfort after hours in the saddle with the bike pushing back on the rider up through the road exacerbated by rough road conditions.
> 
> So frame geometry selection is king. Further confusion not acknowledged in this thread? Off paved road riding differs in severity. There is even correlation among better riders in terms of cockpit aggressiveness and level of road assault relative to terrain. An example is..for cruising groomed gravel trails and smooth single track, for a gravel bike, there is nothing wrong with a conventional road bar. Riding the hoods or drops in this relatively benign environment is fine. A more or less conventional dropbar is sold on most gravel and endurance geometry road bikes. What do guys who like the rougher stuff prefer?....the bump skiers of the offroad set who may still prefer a drop bar for its allowance to change positions? What is called a dirtdrop handlebar. A dirtdrop bar has very different geometry and purpose. A dirtdrop nominal riding position is in the drops and not on the hoods. This 'dramatically' changes what geometry frame is selected for a gravel bike and at the 'core' of choosing a given gravel bike. What kind of riding are you going to do, which dictates what handlebar (within a range) you are going to choose which dictates what frame geometry you are going to choose to put you in the more efficient position for a given terrain. Its a bit complicated but not really with a bit of study in spite of the ridiculous response when perhaps the most important and misunderstood subject germane to buying a gravel bike is broached.
> 
> Now on to Mig's favorite topic, his handlebar position. I believe I explained the dynamic at hand pretty clearly. But Mig, Rash and perhaps a few others silently observing may still have some questions. So a bit further discussion. People have preference when it comes to ergonomics. I sure do as well. I used to think convention was wrong....or not to be regarded with any sanctity but I have become more enlightened with time. Paradigms and conventions come about for a reason. But they also morph with time as well.
> 
> Take a look at the following GCN video. Simon who is a brilliant guy, very strong ex-racer and my favorite GCN presenter who is just a smidge shorter than me and a hint skinnier...he gets it right all the time. A real credit to the sport.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P-QynImMuo
> 
> In the video, Simon talks about the evolution of handlebar shape and very suscintly explains the shape differences. Modern handlebar shape has evolved. Even Lance who rode a 'traditional' shape handlebar for most of his career changed later to what Simon calls a 'variable' shape handlebar which is now embraced as the most popular 'convention'.
> So, what is wrong with Mig's position? He is mixing metaphors a bit. To coin another, he is robbing Peter to pay Paul. How so? Because he slides down his shifters on a 'traditonal' shape handlebar to create the same hood to bar ramp transition of a 'variable' handlebar shape and then rolls the whole bar back. Why is this bad? Because it rotates the hooks down. They offer no support without hand tension. Even more critical on the dirt.
> 
> What riders found over time, was many....Simon, myself, aging Lance...countless riders prefer the most recent variable radiused handlebar. This allows for cake and eat it too. You don't have to rob Peter to pay Paul because the hook is correctly positioned when the bar ramp is horizontal to the ground for flat transition to the hood which takes pressure off the heel of the palm. All about force distribution...even more critical with an aggressive set up with more weight on the hands hopefully offset by higher pedaling forces.
> 
> But full circle back. Dirtbars 'completely' change the landscape in term of what frame geometry a rider chooses which incidentally are a popular retrofit on mtb's. Why are dirt drops a bit more friendly to installing on a mtb versus an endurance based gravel bike geometry? Because the top tube of a mtb is typically 30mm longer than a road bike geometry for a given rider. Stack is almost a wash and if anything a bit higher than a road bike which is also favorable to a dirtdrop handlebar. Dirtdrop handlebars have shorter reach by design which is complementary to longer top tube. What is a dirtdrop handlebar really? A dirtdrop is a hybrid....the offspring if a flatbar mated with a conventional road dropbar.
> 
> So, it starts with...what kind of roads I am going to ride? This more or less dictates what handlebar may work best for the job....more conventional dropbar sold on most gravel and endurance bikes?....flatbar aka traditional mtb?...or dirtdrop handlebar which has gained popularity for rougher road riding....really a synthesis of both.
> 
> Important thing is, each handlebar type pretty dramatically affects what geometry frame a given rider chooses therefore critical to the buying consideration.
> 
> Hope that makes sense and FWIW, that is the truth better riders seek.


I could have explained all this in two sentences.


----------



## taodemon

Migen21 said:


> On the subject of cockpits...
> 
> You can see that I have the bars rolled back a bit and the brake hoods pretty far up on the curve. This is my preferred setup with these bars, but I spend about 95% of my time on the hoods here. I would probably use the drops more, but with this setup, they are nearly unusable due to the bar angle and lack of flare and short extensions.


Not to defend 11spd but Migen admits to his fit (or setup) being off by saying that his drops aren't really usable due to the bars being rotated the way they are. Even without looking at a picture, from that description you could safely assume something is off. If the fit was right both hoods and drops should be usable and you don't need to be some bike fit genius to come to that conclusion. That doesn't mean he has to change his setup, but by his own admission it isn't ideal.


----------



## Finx

taodemon said:


> Not to defend 11spd but Migen admits to his fit (or setup) being off by saying that his drops aren't really usable due to the bars being rotated the way they are. Even without looking at a picture, from that description you could safely assume something is off. If the fit was right both hoods and drops should be usable and you don't need to be some bike fit genius to come to that conclusion. That doesn't mean he has to change his setup, but by his own admission it isn't ideal.


It's really odd to me that people who have never even seen this guy think they know more about how his bike fits than he does.


----------



## CBaron

Wow, I come back a day later and find all of this. It sure escalated quickly. There's so much good info for 7pgs now, lets try to get it back on track. The best way to do that is to NOT RESPOND to e-arguments, because nobody it going to win. I've been riding for 24 yrs, have owned a bike shop and was a custom frame builder for about 7 yrs; of course I've got some things to say about this....but thats not what this thread is about.

So to get this back on track....

I ran across this little gem today:

Eddie Mercks Strasbourg 71
Strasbourg 71 Carbon Grey Black Silver (Matt) - Strasbourg 71 Carbon - Gravel | Eddy Merckx Bikes

This thing tics almost all of my boxes! The CS are a little long, but not super long, and it comes with Celment 36 tires (I believe I read somewhere it would take 40's). These things are just hard to come by around here. I need to do some searching.

I would also like to hear what Migen21's description is of his Norco Search. He used the term "monster cross" as a descriptor for the Search XR, but what would you use for the regular Search? I like the steeper angles of the Search, but I like the tire clearance for the Search XR.

Thanks
CJB


----------



## 11spd

CBaron said:


> Wow, I come back a day later and find all of this. It sure escalated quickly. There's so much good info for 7pgs now, lets try to get it back on track. *The best way to do that is to NOT RESPOND to e-arguments, because nobody it going to win*. I've been riding for 24 yrs, have owned a bike shop and was a custom frame builder for about 7 yrs; of course I've got some things to say about this....but thats not what this thread is about.
> 
> So to get this back on track....
> 
> I ran across this little gem today:
> 
> Eddie Mercks Strasbourg 71
> Strasbourg 71 Carbon Grey Black Silver (Matt) - Strasbourg 71 Carbon - Gravel | Eddy Merckx Bikes
> 
> This thing tics almost all of my boxes! The CS are a little long, but not super long, and it comes with Celment 36 tires (I believe I read somewhere it would take 40's). These things are just hard to come by around here. I need to do some searching.
> 
> I would also like to hear what Migen21's description is of his Norco Search. He used the term "monster cross" as a descriptor for the Search XR, but what would you use for the regular Search? I like the steeper angles of the Search, but I like the tire clearance for the Search XR.
> 
> Thanks
> CJB


Sorry...in bold, but you are wrong. I won the argument. Want to argue about it some more like Rash did?  Of course not. As taodemon pointed out, Mig admitted his set up was crappy and then was insulted I explained why people make this common setup mistake. Its a compensation for a poorly positioned handlebar.

Truthfully, the whole gravel bike conversation is superfluous. You know this as a frame builder. People want different things in a bike on a number levels, most notably frame geometry. Biggest problem? People have no idea what they want or why. In particular this applies to geometry. Half the riders on the road are poorly fitted on the bike and don't have a clue.


A grand and wonderful contrast. When the Levy breaks...should be Zeppelin tho:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWSk5HIfr48


And this guy knows how to ride the dirt and the gravel. Dirtdrop handlebar. Very friendly endurance position with go to position in the drops. If more rode like this guy, would be a lot more happy gravel grinders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vJrVCpNITQ


----------



## Rashadabd

CBaron said:


> Wow, I come back a day later and find all of this. It sure escalated quickly. There's so much good info for 7pgs now, lets try to get it back on track. The best way to do that is to NOT RESPOND to e-arguments, because nobody it going to win. I've been riding for 24 yrs, have owned a bike shop and was a custom frame builder for about 7 yrs; of course I've got some things to say about this....but thats not what this thread is about.
> 
> So to get this back on track....
> 
> I ran across this little gem today:
> 
> Eddie Mercks Strasbourg 71
> Strasbourg 71 Carbon Grey Black Silver (Matt) - Strasbourg 71 Carbon - Gravel | Eddy Merckx Bikes
> 
> This thing tics almost all of my boxes! The CS are a little long, but not super long, and it comes with Celment 36 tires (I believe I read somewhere it would take 40's). These things are just hard to come by around here. I need to do some searching.
> 
> I would also like to hear what Migen21's description is of his Norco Search. He used the term "monster cross" as a descriptor for the Search XR, but what would you use for the regular Search? I like the steeper angles of the Search, but I like the tire clearance for the Search XR.
> 
> Thanks
> CJB


Don't waste your time CJB, as his response to you has demonstrated, he's not going to change his behavior and act appropriately. I don't even know if he can. This is what he does on here. And please don't take my word for it, simply follow a trail of his posts and you will see a graveyard of taken over, dismantled, and chaotic threads. At the center of it all, you will see 11spd or roadworthy, which is what he was known by before he was banned. 

What he seems to do is find interesting or popular threads and joins them. When it becomes clear that he has little or no relevant information to add to the discussion, he waits patiently (sometimes at least) until there is something he can easily disagree with or attack someone for and then he pounces, hurling insults while ALWAYS suggesting that his target knows nothing about cycling and can't possibly match his near pro level experience and unmatched knowledge. 

What he seems to gain by doing this is that he takes conversations where he is an outsider, lacks knowledge, or doesn't truly have much to offer, and slowly or abruptly makes them completely about him and his perceived infinite knowledge. He will simply deflect or ignore any truth anyone brings to the table which contradicts his narrative, because he's not after the truth, he's not even actually interested in the thread's topic from what I can tell; it's the being the center of attention and proclaiming himself the most knowledgeable cyclist on the planet over and over again that fuels him. It happens pretty much Every Single Time he engages a topic. You can't reason with that. Someone eventually has to shut it down to make it stop. Accordingly, this thread will never recover as long as he is part of it. Again, don't take my word for it, take a look at his posts and form your own opinion.

If you really want to keep discussing gravel rides, PM and we will exchange info and get back to it. Take care everyone.


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> Don't waste your time CJB, as his response to you has demonstrated, he's not going to change his behavior and act appropriately. I don't even know if he can. This is what he does on here. And please don't take my word for it, simply follow a trail of his posts and you will see a graveyard of taken over, dismantled, and chaotic threads. At the center of it all, you will see 11spd or roadworthy, which is what he was known by before he was banned.
> 
> What he seems to do is find interesting or popular threads and joins them. When it becomes clear that he has little or no relevant information to add to the discussion, he waits patiently (sometimes at least) until there is something he can easily disagree with or attack someone for and then he pounces, hurling insults and ALWAYS suggesting that his target knows nothing about cycling and can't possible match his near pro level experience and unmatched knowledge.
> 
> What he seems to gain by doing this is that he takes conversations where he is an outsider, lacks knowledge, or doesn't truly have much to offer, and slowly or abruptly makes them completely about him and his perceived infinite knowledge. He will simply deflect or ignore any truth anyone brings to the table which contradicts his narrative, because he's not after the truth, he's not even actually interested in the thread's topic from what I can tell; it's the being the center of attention and proclaiming himself the most knowledgeable cyclist on the planet over and over again that fuels him. It happens pretty much Every Single Time he engages a topic. You can't reason with that. Someone eventually has to shut it down to make it stop. Accordingly, this thread will never recover as long as he is part of it. Again, don't take my word for it, take a look at his posts and form your own opinion.
> 
> If you really want to keep discussing gravel rides, PM and we will exchange info and get back to it. Take care everyone.


Stop the rancor Rash. You are doing it again. A long and rambling post frought with nothing but discord and unfounded qualitative accusations. If you had any sense of decency, you would be ashamed. Your user name should be ad hominem. Only what you know. You don't know anything about bicycles Rash. Come on, lets face it. Your posts clearly show that. You wasted two pages arguing with me and you are still wrong. Stop it. You are sullying the forum needlessly. The post way back when that ignited this firestorm was your intolerance about the truth. You are sensitive, style boy. 

The only post in the last while that was decent was taodemon. He gets it. Look at the array of monstercross and gravel bikes in the videos I posted. Vast majority are ridable positions They get it. If you don't, please quit reminding us, but most notably, give me a rest from your needless, unfounded torment.


----------



## 11spd

Back to substance. Truthfully there is an underlying theme of naivety in your posts Rash. That’s ok. You are here to learn.
Let me explain. You are all excited about picking out your bike kit and the subject of handlebar comes up. You preface that you are ‘going to have the shop build your bike’. Really? Then, you go on to say, hey, I think I will try a dirt drop handlebar…what you called a flared handlebar. You don’t get it. You spec the frame based upon the intended handlebar you want to use which generally correlates with type of riding you plan to do. It isn’t the other way around. You don’t spec a frame designed for a more traditional handlebar and then decide to stick a flatbar or dirt drop on it. The geometry won’t work.
You don’t deserve the above knowledge because you have been so insulting but this is fundamental and important for others about to make a foray into gravel riding that they appreciate this construct.
I encourage anybody considering riding the gravel and single track aggressively to consider building a bike with a dirtdrop like the Kona rep video I posted. A beautiful execution. Don’t buid a basic gravel bike with conventional handlebar unless your plan is ‘very light duty’ gravel grinding. For many gravel courses you will really appreciate the overall control and comfort of a dirtdrop ‘with suitable frame geometry’ to place it in the best position for power and comfort. Signature point is a dirtdrop handlebar doesn’t work as effectively with a stock geometry gravel bike designed for a more conventional handlebar. This is the most important point of anybody considering a gravel bike. The other things Rash you are focused on are ‘window dressing.’ Nebula. What color curtains you decide upon to match the carpet.


----------



## crit_boy

Your personal preference does not mean other people are wrong. I thought you road a flat bar mountain bike on gravel. But, you are the first and last word in gravel drop bars?

I am perfectly content riding my CX bike on gravel with the same bar I use on my road bike - 3T ergonova pro. 

I rode DK200 and a bunch of other gravel and single track with it. I even got to do a gravel group ride with a world tour pro last weekend. 

I have no interest in the flared out drop bars. 

Never heard such BS that you build your bike around you bar choice.


----------



## CBaron

I recently ran across this option too. Its not exactly right for me because the CS are a bit too long. Additionally I'd prefer a bit steeper HTA too. But I figured I'd post it up in case anyone else wants to check it out.

Jamis Renegade
Review: Jamis Renegade Elite | road.cc

I really like the road.cc content and reviews. They seem pretty thorough and usually offer up some alternative suggestions too. Problem is that since its a UK publication, sometimes they offer up things that are not offered here in the US. The Genesis Datum is a prime example. I REALLY DIG that bike and may even look into what it would take to get one shipped here. But I'd prefer to look into something more local where I can tap into my industry connections. We'll see...

Here's a link to the the retails listing, which is more current than the review. This bike does look like a decent value with some good options
https://www.evanscycles.com/jamis-renegade-elite-2018-adventure-road-bike-EV306049

Later,
CJB


----------



## 11spd

crit_boy said:


> Your personal preference does not mean other people are wrong. I thought you road a flat bar mountain bike on gravel. But, you are the first and last word in gravel drop bars?
> 
> I am perfectly content riding my CX bike on gravel with the same bar I use on my road bike - 3T ergonova pro.
> 
> I rode DK200 and a bunch of other gravel and single track with it. I even got to do a gravel group ride with a world tour pro last weekend.
> 
> I have no interest in the flared out drop bars.
> 
> Never heard such BS that you build your bike around you bar choice.


Crit boy, thanks for the laugh. Here’s a common dynamic. Decent rider who knows nothing about bicycles. That may even be you…giving you the benefit of the doubt you are a decent rider. Btw, same applies to Mig as well. He maybe a decent rider. I mean with 6 inches of drop on the dirt with no way to hold onto the drops, he must at least be strong..lol. If you don’t understand the basic construct that any given bicycle or even motorcycle is designed around a handlebar choice, then you don’t have a clue on the subject. A flatbar will never fit properly on a road bike. A mountain bike will never fit properly with a road bike drop bar. Putting a dirtdrop on a cross bike like you ride would be a kluge in terms of fit. So really, only BS being promulgated here is from you bro. Quit embarrassing yourself.

The thing that makes the subject of gravel bikes so contentious and even debated really well on GCN videos…what is the fastest bike for the job on a given track?….is not only do riders vary in strength, but also gravel venues vary greatly. For the types of gravel trails you ride relative to your strength and preferences, a cross bike will do fine. News flash tho Crit Boy. There is a reason that the ‘genre’ of gravel bikes came into being separate from cross bikes. Another news flash bro…there is a reason Monstercross bikes are preferred by some who shred gravel and prefer a bike that is a bit more multi-faceted than your cross bike.
People aren’t the same. Bike design isn't the same for those that like to race on gravel. And riding venues can be broadly diverse. The nexus of these is what shapes rider preference…that and your ignorance of course on full display.
That is the crux of this thread. Not whether you like the color of gumwall dirt tires or not…or your critical comment about type of handlebar not affecting frame geometry which not only goes way over your head but many that don’t know much about bicycles like Rash. 

Maybe you better watch the rep riding his monstercross Kona with dirtdrop again. He knows more about bicycles than you bro. Listen carefully to what he says about the versatility of the bike he is on. He is prepping for a 200 mile gravel race. Apples and oranges to what you ride is the point and very different frame geometry based upon his choice of handlebar to race on the gravel.

Hopefully you will get it the second time around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vJrVCpNITQ


----------



## crit_boy

11spd said:


> He is prepping for a 200 mile gravel race. Apples and oranges to what you ride is the point and very different frame geometry based upon his choice of handlebar to race on the gravel.


DK200 is a 200+ mile gravel race. How do you like them apples?

I did not say the bar does not alter fit. I threw the BS flag on your comment that you pick the frame based upon the desired bar. 

Although I have been riding and racing for a couple decades, there is a lot I don't know. So, I'll bow to your obviously superior knowledge in all aspects of everything. 

Have a good one, enjoy your thread trolling.


----------



## taodemon

Barring extremes what prevents you from taking a road bike or cross bike and throwing a dirt drop bar and adjusting the fit with spacers and stem angle to match a frame designed for dirt drop? The differences in frame geometry can’t be that much can they?


----------



## Marc

taodemon said:


> Barring extremes what prevents you from taking road bike or cross bike and throwing a dirt drop bar and adjusting the fit with spacers and stem angle to match a frame designed for dirt drop? The differences in frame geometry can’t be that much can they?


Road bikes never have the tire clearance.

Traditional geometry CX machines have high BBs and aren't that stable or comfortable for a 100 or 200 miler.


----------



## taodemon

Marc said:


> Road bikes never have the tire clearance.
> 
> Traditional geometry CX machines have high BBs and aren't that stable or comfortable for a 100 or 200 miler.


Yes, there are other differences but from a fit perspective which seems to be a point of contention here it should still be possible right? As in you could buy any frame more or less designed for gravel / wider tires and achieve a comparable fit with spacer/stem angle adjustments wether you go with a dirt drop bar or a traditional drop bar. So you don’t necessarily need to buy a frame based on which of those drop bars you plan to use.


----------



## Eretz

Rashadabd said:


>


That was awesome. That reminded me of Mango Mama. Those facial expressions.:thumbsup:


----------



## 11spd

taodemon said:


> Barring extremes what prevents you from taking a road bike or cross bike and throwing a dirt drop bar and adjusting the fit with spacers and stem angle to match a frame designed for dirt drop? The differences in frame geometry can’t be that much can they?


A dirt drop tao isn't meant to be ridden like a conventional drop bar. With a conventional drop bar, the hooks are more of an optional riding position like on a road bike. With a dirt drop, the hooks are the 'go to position' analogous to hand grips on a flat bar. Dirt drops were spawned from mtb's to provide another riding position. A completely different philosophy than riding a conventional dropbar on a gravel bike. So it starts with what kind of handlebar you want to ride when determining appropriate stack and reach. Bicycles...like monstercross for example which are a hybrid of mtb meet gravel or cross bike....their geometry is specific to a dirtdrop which is quite different than a traditional gravel bike. Because the hooks are the nominal riding position, a dirtdrop is typically located higher than a traditional drop bar. Tuning with spacers and stem rise in some cases may not even be possible let alone ideal. A mtb is closer in stack and reach for a dirtdrop handlebar than a gravel bike.


----------



## Eretz

Rashadabd said:


> This guy might agree with you though....
> 
> 
> Here's the real test we are talking about:


This was excellent, too. I am buying a Gravel Bike this month. This thread rocks.


----------



## 11spd

You get it Eretz and btw, thanks for your personal comments left.
Reason why the thread took a turn and btw, why Rash was so up in arms because he wanted to focus on bike color and whether it matched what handlebar tape he was going to choose ;-)….was, the decision of what gravel bike to choose, isn’t easy unless you take more or less a default position and choose something off the rack with the name ‘gravel bike’. FWIW, what was the default gravel bike for the last twenty years? A mtb. What is going to be the fastest bike for the ‘average’ non racer on rougher gravel trails over say 50 miles? A mtb. The GCN video exposed this. The invention or rather creation of the mtb is a fascinating evolution unto itself. So what has been spawned from this genre? How did the 29er come into being for example? Road bike meet mtb. There is a reason why road bikes don’t come with 26” wheels like a mtb…and historically why a mtb didn’t have 700c wheels. 

So the whole evolution of endurance roadbikes with wider tire capability and more upright rider geometry and longer wheelbase to compensate for greater rear wheel weight bias which really begat gravel bikes with an eye toward 29ers which have now given way a bit to 650c mountain bikes and even gravel bikes with smaller wheels with wider rubber. There is a method to all this madness. The line is blurred. Its complicated. As I discussed in a previous post, depends on the rider. Depends on the terrain. Out for a stroll? Or are going racing?
Many choose a cross bike for example for shredding the gravel. Many however find the geometry a bit too aggressive on a cross bike and the BB too high.

Then comes along the dirt drop…for mtb’ers who want their cake and eat it too. Just like for many riders including me…I am faster on a rigid 29er with the right tires than on a gravel bike for racing…per the GCN video…some will want a dirt drop on their mtb called monstercross and be fastest on that bike. I haven’t spent a lot of time on monstercross bikes but this maybe the go to bike for me as well as the fastest bike, like the Kona video I posted…what works best for him. 

Why monstercross versus a so called dedicated gravel bike? Comfort is a by product for sure, but really comes down to the security of wider tires run at lower pressures. The dirtdrops on a monstercross bike are positioned higher and a default riding position and not only perceived as more comfortable than riding the default hood position of a gravel bike, but more secure. I love the term monstercross because its name is exactly right. It handles more monster terrain better than a gravel bike and we all know that gravel trails can devolve into some pretty hellish terrain. Keep in mind, the epic annual 103 mile Leadville CO race is historically won on a mtb including when Lance won it. This race is basically the ultimate gravel race with 25 mile + of smooth tarmac which could be ridden fastest on a traditional road bike. In spite of the race being ridden with drop bar gravel bike interations, it is a mtb that historically wins the race.

Many in fact can shred gravel on their road bike with 25c tires. I have. I lived on a gravel road for 6 years and rode almost everyday. But those that have tried other bike combinations find there maybe a better bike for them for this kind of riding…especially racing or riding big miles aggressively.

So all these different genres of bicycles have been created for different niches which comport or not with different riders. For crit boy, it’s a cross bike for racing the gravel. Totally get it. He’s got the goods to deliver with this kind of bike on that kind of terrain. Others may choose a slightly different combo of tire size and handlebar type. 

Many that don’t understand frame geometry scoff at the import of handlebar selection when it comes choosing frame geometry. It even came out in the Madone thread. A lady bought her dream bike which identical stack and reach to her previous Madone and it hurt her back. She was painted into a corner of fit because the integrated handlebar on the new Madone had more reach than her old non integrated bike.
For most road bikes...if staying within this quite homogeneous genre of bicycles, typically handlebar selection is not an issue....but stack and reach are of course critically important and certainly important to stem selection and selection of handlebar reach and drop. Most of us carve out these preferences by experience...including bar shape. 

For off paved road riding, the line is even more blurred because bikes vary more is the point. Its critically important and why I took the time to explain it against some backlash. It is important…perhaps the signature decision when riding the dirt and gravel…that and wheel dia and what rubber will fit on a frame. Even frame material is more incidental.  Certainly the bottle cages Rash is considering...ribbing you Rash for being so needlessly hostile...lol. 

But above is the biggest consideration if buying or building a new gravel bike and why it shook out of conversation in this thread. Above is ‘way more important’ than quibbling about the minutia discussed by Rash, Mig and other style boys who care more about aesthetics and less significant details about choosing what kind of bike for gravel riding. That is why the war of the worlds. To put things in proper perspective.
The road to the truth can even be more rocky than the trails we ride. Doesn't have to be.
Good luck on your bike purchase Eretz. Remember, light is right and unless built like gumby, a friendly geometry to riding the rough stuff will go a long way for comfort, injury avoidance and yes, speed as exposed in the GCN video.

PS: Simon is my personal favorite. That boy is not only encyclopedic about cycling as an ex pro, but still has serious game. Take note of the comments about the descent. The mtb completely crushed the gravel bike downhill. Simon however beat him to the top. Believe the results would have been reversed for lessor riders...the mtb would have won the race and in fact, not shown, did win the race by somebody stronger than Simon on a mtb...just not his immediate competitor. If Simon would have won the race, you would have seen him podium in the video.  If you are going to grind the gravel for hours in more or less a road bike position, you better have the body to do it or built like Mig with his 6" of drop, few can even sustain on smooth road.


----------



## Eretz

11spd said:


> You get it Eretz and btw, thanks for your personal comments left.



In all sincerity my knowledge of "gravel bikes" was non-existent until reading through this entire thread. 




11spd said:


> ...Take note of the comments about the descent. The mtb completely crushed the gravel bike downhill. Simon however beat him to the top.


I caught that dialog and found it pendent on skill sets that each rider encompasses for a specific type of riding. The roadie if challenged by terrain [so said the downhill] will use that time to recover. He did and had the foresight to use that recovery for the climb. He actually said so, in so many words. 






11spd said:


> ...Believe the results would have been reversed for lessor riders...the mtb would have won the race and in fact, not shown, did win the race by somebody stronger than Simon on a mtb...just not his immediate competitor.


Here I totally agree too. The selling point of the MTB becomes moot on smooth flat gavel and crisscrossing rural paved roads. I, for one, do not load my ride in a vehicle transporting it to a start destination. I always "ride" to the "ride." The gavel bike will certainly open up the endless possibilities a high bottom bracket height CX bike can't offer. I feel the gavel bike is closest to benefits on partial road with an endless array of rougher terrain opportunities kept in mind. This will be my commuting machine, with *cough* side alternatives never before ventured. 

PS - Those off-road drops have been around for awhile. Always black cloth wrap. 

Great thread, thanks everyone.


----------



## 11spd

Eretz said:


> In all sincerity my knowledge of "gravel bikes" was non-existent until reading through this entire thread.
> 
> 
> 
> I caught that dialog and found it pendent on skill sets that each rider encompasses for a specific type of riding. The roadie if challenged by terrain [so said the downhill] will use that time to recover. He did and had the foresight to use that recovery for the climb. He actually said so, in so many words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here I totally agree too. The selling point of the MTB becomes moot on smooth flat gavel and crisscrossing rural paved roads. I, for one, do not load my ride in a vehicle transporting it to a start destination. I always "ride" to the "ride." The gavel bike will certainly open up the endless possibilities a high bottom bracket height CX bike can't offer. I feel the gavel bike is closest to benefits on partial road with an endless array of rougher terrain opportunities kept in mind. This will be my commuting machine, with *cough* side alternatives never before ventured.
> 
> PS - Those off-road drops have been around for awhile. Always black cloth wrap.
> 
> Great thread, thanks everyone.


Bottom line is being forearmed with all the options to make the most informed buying decision if dropping 3 large on a gravel bike. I starts with handlebar choice, wheel dia and rubber width...and frame set geo preferences like BB drop, HTA, chainstay length and even preferred STA. Handlebar drop and reach and even modestly width affect stack and reach frameset choice specifc to 'desired riding position'. Many for example prefer to ride a bit more upright with more weight on the bum when riding rough road. This takes pressure off the hands which take a beating on the rough stuff and ok to sport a more upright torso angle because speeds are down relative to smooth tarmac...which also is why gearing is a bit shorter. It all fits together as a puzzle and the challenge is to solve the riddle for each of us based upon our preference, strength and weaknesses and of course terrain is a big factor.

I hope you share what you decide upon here and why you selected what you did. Or...if you are leaning a certain direction, before you buy you can share what you think you would like best.

Cheers brother.


----------



## ddave12000

crit_boy said:


> DK200 is a 200+ mile gravel race. How do you like them apples?
> 
> I did not say the bar does not alter fit. I threw the BS flag on your comment that you pick the frame based upon the desired bar.
> 
> Although I have been riding and racing for a couple decades, there is a lot I don't know. So, I'll bow to your obviously superior knowledge in all aspects of everything.
> 
> Have a good one, enjoy your thread trolling.


I have also ridden DK200 twice. On my CX bike. And I use the exact same bar I use on my road bike as well. Additionally, I am 100% sure the fit is correct. 

I admit I don't know everything either (probably not even much tbh) and 11spd might know something but I can't actually tell - there's far to much self righteousness getting in the way. A superior thread troll indeed.


----------



## 11spd

ddave12000 said:


> I have also ridden DK200 twice. On my CX bike. And I use the exact same bar I use on my road bike as well. Additionally, I am 100% sure the fit is correct.
> 
> I admit I don't know everything either (probably not even much tbh) and 11spd might know something but I can't actually tell - there's far to much self righteousness getting in the way. A superior thread troll indeed.


Based upon your post dave, you know nothing...lol.

Well, maybe how to make the pedals go around and type criticism with no substantive rebuttal to what I wrote...unless of course you found what I wrote incongruous with you believe your fit is '100% correct'. Hey, maybe you are ultrafit guy? I mean pros get fit every year to see if there is opportunity for improvement. Maybe you are special?

A superior troll thread? Not you dave.


----------



## ddave12000

11spd said:


> Based upon your post dave, you know nothing...lol.
> 
> Well, maybe how to make the pedals go around and type criticism with no substantive rebuttal to what I wrote...unless of course you found what I wrote incongruous with you believe your fit is '100% correct'. Hey, maybe you are ultrafit guy? I mean pros get fit every year to see if there is opportunity for improvement. Maybe you are special?
> 
> A superior troll thread? Not you dave.


I don't have a problem admitting I don't know a lot, as I previously stated. I do know my fit is correct because I've had fittings with a professional...

It's all good though...you can keep denying you haven't blown up this thread but everyone can see it for themselves lol. 

Oh, and merry christmas!


----------



## 11spd

ddave12000 said:


> I don't have a problem admitting I don't know a lot...


A rare point of agreement. Don't feel bad. You have a lot of company...lol.
Oh...and thanks for sharing. Got any good remedies for spiders in the garage?


----------



## Eretz

11spd said:


> I starts with handlebar choice, wheel dia and rubber width...and frame set geo preferences like BB drop, HTA, chainstay length and even preferred STA.


I have to admit, being out of it for awhile riding a Super Six carbon 38,000 miles in 7 years helped the argument. Between the 3 bikes I've owned, the riding position is always identical, - drops, low.  This older Trek was my bad weather mobile refurbished with new stuff. I'm really ready for a Gavel Bike. 

and $3k is a lot of money but riding 7-9K a year ain't, and on the same bike year after year ain't too.

ps no bar tape, rain bike, all gloves.


----------



## J.R.

Even the cat is astonished by the lack of bar tape!


----------



## Finx

11spd said:


> A rare point of agreement. Don't feel bad. You have a lot of company...lol.
> Oh...and thanks for sharing. Got any good remedies for spiders in the garage?


This was actually typed by someone who learned everything they know about gravel riding from a youtube video -- LOL


----------



## 11spd

Eretz,
Cool pic. Big cat (and dog) lover here too. Beautiful cat.
Pic of an old road bike apart for a bit of maintenance with my faithful and noticeably disinterested companion in the corner with g/f's mountain bike in the background. Farm living  before I made it back to the city where I belong.

What car do you have under the cover?

You say all your bikes have the same 3 pts of contact. If you do build a gravel bike, consider a bit less aggressive geometry...or not. Rough road can be tough on the hands. But..if you are laying down the watts consistently and have a young fit body, you are good. 
Merry Christmas.

PS: not sure you saw the GCN video preceeding Simon and Neal's 130 km gravel race. To me, this video does a really good job of capturing the difference between the two bikes. Neal is a pretty incredible technical rider and notice how upright his riding position is. If you think about it, really makes perfect sense. Closer conditions are to more pristine road surface, the faster the gravel bike is. Rougher the conditions, the mtb'er wins the day. I have done a fair enough of both to know there is a lot of overlap. More about the engine.
Will add, the gravel that they did the 'TT' on looked closer to ground limestone...almost road surface texture. Was pretty much the only way to separate the two. Simon might have been as fast on that surface on a road bike....or Neal. Not the kind of gravel I used to ride on where my 29er was clearly faster 'for me'. The whole gravel scene is quite variable all said. Horses for courses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz8GddHM-rg


----------



## Eretz

11spd said:


> ...
> ...
> Will add, the gravel that they did the 'TT' on looked closer to ground limestone...almost road surface texture. Was pretty much the only way to separate the two. Simon might have been as fast on that surface on a road bike....or Neal. Not the kind of gravel I used to ride on where my 29er was clearly faster 'for me'. The whole gravel scene is quite variable all said. Horses for courses.


Couple things came to mind. One, the time trial was actually riding on chip-seal, not loose gravel/stone. And two, what were the wind conditions because more certainly in the drops on chip-seal you're going to roll a wee bit faster. 

Perhaps.






Also why I want a gravel bike

Merry Christmas back to everyone, too.:thumbsup:


----------



## 11spd

Eretz,
This is where I come down on the issue based upon personal experience. High end, uber lightweight hardtail FTW. Isn't even close. Hey, I know those out there like their dropbar...and me too, only way to ride on smooth road...but not for ripping the rough stuff. The new hardtails with lockable front shock, super light wheels with 2" plus rubber capability...wide is right for rougher riding. 

This wasn't a fair fight...guy on the cross bike was way under tired...which is common and being over tired is generally much better....and the guy on the single speed hardtail, him at least getting it about tire size and handlebar type...was simply a mascocist with only one speed....lol.

Enjoy the video if you haven't seen it. UK gravel...not the pristine stuff you can shred on a road bike. If venturing off paved road, the Spesh Epic S-works hardtail would be on my very short list. DNA of a road bike with flat bar....what Joe calls a superbike which it is. FWIW I would never do that ride on cross bike. Hardtail mtb with front shock all day, everyday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AGzf2U12zY


----------



## Eretz

11spd said:


> Eretz,
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AGzf2U12zY


When my daughters were schooling in england from belguim I'd ride those roads with a CX bike. Remember, for some, it's always a fair day. And I love the rain, cold and misérable.:thumbsup:

Gavel bike for the bottom bracket lowered clearance of a CX. And I already have a light weight mountain bike, which suks city streets jumping lights and sukin' a vacuum behind a district bus. LOL. 

Gavel = Good Fellows.

Mix of anything. Great stuff. Great thread.


----------



## 11spd

Eretz said:


> When my daughters were schooling in england from belguim I'd ride those roads with a CX bike. Remember, for some, it's always a fair day. And I love the rain, cold and misérable.:thumbsup:
> 
> Gavel bike for the bottom bracket lowered clearance of a CX. And I already have a light weight mountain bike, which suks city streets jumping lights and sukin' a vacuum behind a district bus. LOL.
> 
> Gavel = Good Fellows.
> 
> Mix of anything. Great stuff. Great thread.


Proof positive we all are different which underscores why so difficult to reach a consensus on which bike....the genre varying quite a bit and even what bikes are raced by people that know approx. what they are doing at a given event. 

I would never ride a cross bike on those roads...ever.  Done it, and not my idea of a good time. I am on the side of Joe in the video, front shock and 2+ inch wide rubber...and doesn't help to be on one of the top race hardtail's on the planet. Personal preference.

So a cross bike for you...or gravel bike is the ticket. No need for even considering a bike that melds both genres of cross and mtb like monstercross.

Do you have a gravel bike in mind?...or a set of metrics you want to build to?


----------



## Rashadabd

I thought this was such a worthwhile read that I came back just to post it. It's also something that I (and others) have been saying for some time. It's the tire clearance and the move away from rim based calipers that make disc brakes and gravel bikes interesting/special and a step forward in some capacity.

https://pelotonmagazine.com/home-page-slider/disc-brakes-will-revolutionize-bicycle∗/


----------



## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> I thought this was such a worthwhile read that I came back just to post it. It's also something that I (and others) have been saying for some time. It's the tire clearance and the move away from rim based calipers that make disc brakes and gravel bikes interesting/special and a step forward in some capacity.
> 
> https://pelotonmagazine.com/home-page-slider/disc-brakes-will-revolutionize-bicycle∗/


Thanks for the article. Yes, disc brakes do promote greater universality and riding a greater tire and wheel width variance on a single frameset without a doubt. One can buy...and have...a singular bike like say a carbon Diverge with disc brakes and throw on a set of Zipps with 25c rubber and keep up on the A group ride. Or..put some 40mm gravel tires on it and ride not too gnarly gravel or single track and jump some curbs through town.

So great perspective. But perhaps we can agree...or not...that no single bike is all things. There maybe more of a universal bike....I believe it is emerging already in what many call a gravel bike even if the nomenclature falls short...but other more specific purpose bikes....like a sub 15 lb road bike for climbing...and dual suspension mtb for the rough stuff I believe will always exist. Time will tell if disk brakes dominate the lightest road bikes. Disc brakes I believe have the rest of the industry covered. None-the-less insightful perspective looking through a different lens. Before greater ubiquity of disc brakes, who didn't hate center pull rim brakes on fat tired bikes? God they were awful


----------



## Eretz

Rashadabd said:


> ...It's the tire clearance and the move away from rim based calipers that make disc brakes and gravel bikes interesting/special and a step forward in some capacity.


I ride a set of 25mm Conti Grand Prix 4000S on the SuperSix for years now. Real control and comfort but the inner fork blade crown is ripped to shreds [carbon fiber]. I completely agree with those insertions in that URL. As I stated earlier, I do not need bb ground clearance as w/the CX. I'd like a road bike with about everything stated in that URL. I never knew there was such a beast as a Gravel Bike until reading this tread. I've been researching the interwebs for days now for that next purchase. Thanks again.





















Above photo taken from NicoPerthuis


----------



## Rashadabd

Eretz said:


> I ride a set of 25mm Conti Grand Prix 4000S on the SuperSix for years now. Real control and comfort but the inner fork blade crown is ripped to shreds [carbon fiber]. I completely agree with those insertions in that URL. As I stated earlier, I do not need bb ground clearance as w/the CX. I'd like a road bike with about everything stated in that URL. I never knew there was such a beast as a Gravel Bike until reading this tread. I've been researching the interwebs for days now for that next purchase. Thanks again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Above photo taken from NicoPerthuis


You are most welcome. I am glad it’s been beneficial. That was what I started the thread for. Here’s another more affordable option I came across since I last posted. It comes with 650b wheels and 2x stock if that matters to you. 

GRIT 440 - KHS Bicycles


----------



## Rashadabd

The beautiful Boyd Jocassee and WTB Byway combination. I love the look of this combo and riders rave about it as well. It's definitely on the short list of combos to try. (they are also combined with Di2 and a 2x system here.... so jealous).


----------



## Eretz

Rashadabd said:


> You are most welcome. I am glad it’s been beneficial. That was what I started the thread for. Here’s another more affordable option I came across since I last posted. It comes with 650b wheels and 2x stock if that matters to you.
> 
> GRIT 440 - KHS Bicycles
> 
> View attachment 321490


Thank you. Definitely a consideration. A 650bb is really practical.


----------



## Rashadabd

Eretz said:


> Thank you. Definitely a consideration. A 650bb is really practical.


Yeah, I saw that one when it came out. It's a funny one and interesting. It's one of the videos that sparked my interest in gravel riding as well.


----------



## Rashadabd

For those that want something "really" different:

https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/40953/

https://renovobikes.com/pages/john-day-f2


----------



## Rashadabd

Another ride to consider, this one is from Colorado....

Featured Event: The Crippler - A "Colorado Style" Gravel Grinder - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience


----------



## Rashadabd

On the more affordable end of the spectrum, we have the aluminum Kona Rove. 650b wheels and tires come stock.

KONA BIKES | ROAD | ROVE | Rove NRB

KONA BIKES | ROAD | ROVE | Rove NRB DL

It's also available in steel:

KONA BIKES | ROAD | ROVE | Rove LTD

Or as a frameset:

Kona Rove LTD Frame/Fork 2018 | Jenson USA


----------



## Finx

If you are interested in Steel, don't forget about Gunnar/Waterford. They have some nice offerings across the full spectrum.


----------



## Rashadabd

Finx said:


> If you are interested in Steel, don't forget about Gunnar/Waterford. They have some nice offerings across the full spectrum.


I am set on going with the Search XR Carbon, but others have definitely indicated they have a preference for steel, so thank you.


----------



## Hiro11

Thought I'd throw in a vote for my Raleigh Stuntman for others here. You can get it for $1,300 right now. 

For that you get:
- a Reynolds 631 frame with a threaded BB, thru-axles on both ends and some nice welded details
- Rival 1x Hydro with a tough Sammox crank and narrow wide chainring.
- Fairly nice tubeless ready 29er wheels (Novatec/Weinmann) with 50mm Clement/Donnelly X'Plor MOS tubeless tires on 28mm wide rims.
- nice bars that copy the Salsa Cowbell and a comfortable Velo-made fake Selle San Marco Regal saddle
- sweet retro paint based on the truck from "The Fall Guy".

Drawbacks? It weighs 26 lbs, the included Trans-X dropper post is unnecessary and the cable routing is weird.

Still for $1,300, you're getting an indestructible bike that works well, is very comfortable, rides with stability and comfort and will go wherever you want.

Raleigh makes a lot of nicely designed and practical gravel bikes right now. If the Stuntman is too extreme, something else might work.


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## Rashadabd

Hiro11 said:


> Thought I'd throw in a vote for my Raleigh Stuntman for others here. You can get it for $1,300 right now.
> 
> For that you get:
> - a Reynolds 631 frame with a threaded BB, thru-axles on both ends and some nice welded details
> - Rival 1x Hydro with a tough Sammox crank and narrow wide chainring.
> - Fairly nice tubeless ready 29er wheels (Novatec/Weinmann) with 50mm Clement/Donnelly X'Plor MOS tubeless tires on 28mm wide rims.
> - nice bars that copy the Salsa Cowbell and a comfortable Velo-made fake Selle San Marco Regal saddle
> - sweet retro paint based on the truck from "The Fall Guy".
> 
> Drawbacks? It weighs 26 lbs, the included Trans-X dropper post is unnecessary and the cable routing is weird.
> 
> Still for $1,300, you're getting an indestructible bike that works well, is very comfortable, rides with stability and comfort and will go wherever you want.
> 
> Raleigh makes a lot of nicely designed and practical gravel bikes right now. If the Stuntman is too extreme, something else might work.


Heck yeah, that’s a really cool bike. It’s like a steel Salsa Cutthroat. That’s a great value for what you are getting too. You should post some pics when you can.


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## Eretz

Rashadabd said:


> On the more affordable end of the spectrum, we have the aluminum Kona Rove. 650b wheels and tires come stock.
> 
> KONA BIKES | ROAD | ROVE | Rove NRB
> 
> KONA BIKES | ROAD | ROVE | Rove NRB DL
> 
> It's also available in steel:
> 
> KONA BIKES | ROAD | ROVE | Rove LTD
> 
> Or as a frameset:
> 
> Kona Rove LTD Frame/Fork 2018 | Jenson USA


These were not my seat positions. At least not in those photos in comparison to the GRIT 440 - KHS Bicycles. 

May sound odd, but years of riding a GIOS Torino Record as a youngin' a decade and a half after its' initial launch, and being short armed, long legged and broad shouldered made the scenario of bars to the bottom of the head tube "position" completely comfortable. With a short upper body and long legs, no spacers and rake is the prerequisite. 

To each his own.



<a href="https://imgur.com/I06PsQL"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/I06PsQL.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>


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## Rashadabd

Eretz said:


> These were not my seat positions. At least not in those photos in comparison to the GRIT 440 - KHS Bicycles.
> 
> May sound odd, but years of riding a GIOS Torino Record as a youngin' a decade and a half after its' initial launch, and being short armed, long legged and broad shouldered made the scenario of bars to the bottom of the head tube "position" completely comfortable. With a short upper body and long legs, no spacers and rake is the prerequisite.
> 
> To each his own.
> 
> 
> 
> <a href="https://imgur.com/I06PsQL"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/I06PsQL.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>


Fit is definitely key for any bike purchase, so go with what works for your body. I am just sharing different options I come across from time to time so that people can see what’s out there.


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## Eretz

Rashadabd said:


> Fit is definitely key for any bike purchase, so go with what works for your body. I am just sharing different options I come across from time to time so that people can see what’s out there.


Don't get me wrong. You picked out the one design that perfectly fit my needs. That was the KLH. Now, the Kona bikes would need a complete cockpit change. You can make anything fit in the overall. I was not dissing the Kona and those choices, but the shorter top tube and the overall design of the KLH is what I've eventually purchased after research. So, don't take my remark as wrong. You were dead right.

Again thanks.:thumbsup:


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## Rashadabd

Another good read:

https://pelotonmagazine.com/home-page-slider/nebraska-3-way/


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## CBaron

Rashadabd said:


> Another good read:
> 
> https://pelotonmagazine.com/home-page-slider/nebraska-3-way/


Yes! That is a very good read. Interesting and sprinkled with good info.

Thanks for sharing
CJB


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## Rashadabd

Another one that appears to be a really solid, but super affordable option:

Kinesis Tripster AT gravel bike review - Cycling Weekly


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## Rashadabd




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## Rashadabd

This guy set a Giant TCX up with 650b wheels (link on top). You could probably put together a pretty nice build with a TCX SX if you wanted a racier rig and are willing to sacrifice a little stability on descents to get there. It comes with a fairly friendly price tag as well.

Kirkland Bicycle Shop Bike Store. Santa Cruz,Yeti,Giant,Cannondale

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tcx-advanced-sx

https://cyclingmagazine.ca/spotlight/bike-monday-giant-tcx-advanced-sx-review/

Giant TCX SLR max tire clearance - Weight Weenies


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## Rashadabd

More motivation to at least try some gravel and trail riding:


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## Rashadabd

Nice piece on using a CX bike for a gravel race:

Specialized CruX for the Dirty Kanza 200 - BikeRadar USA


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## 11spd

Speaking of nice pieces, here is one out riding her bike:


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## factory feel

11spd said:


> Speaking of nice pieces, here is one out riding her bike:


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## Lookbiker

If you are having problems with the bottom bracket, I have had great luck with the Chris King PF30 models with regular grease changes. Three years of very muddy gravel racing with no issues. I ride a Lynskey ProCross with a 1x drivetrain and very pleased with the set-up.


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