# Venge Vias backlash....



## mile2424

Just thought I would start a separate thread on this. I know everyone seems to be bashing the new Venge, especially since the pro riders haven't been using them. Whether it's rider preference, the brakes, not enough seat time, or whatever the case may be. I don't know how quickly riders typically adjust or switch to the new bikes when they come out. I seem to remember the original venge first being raced at MSR, and it was incorporated relatively quickly to other pro riders after that. So why aren't other pro riders using it? I know some of the ITU triathletes are now using the Vias as well. It will be really interesting to see what happens early next year when the spring classics and big races come back. Marketing wise, it would look really bad if the big names weren't riding the bike. And of course you don't want to force riders to be riding something they don't like, you want them to love it and want to use it for everything day in and day out. 

I know some of the guys at Spesh have said the reason Cav and Sagan weren't riding them more during the TdF was that they did not have enough seat time and weren't comfortable using them yet. A few months have passed, and we still aren't seeing them being used. What gives?


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## spdntrxi

Riding friend on mine demoed one.. Didn't have any complaints.. Will hopefully talk to him more this weekend when we ride. I would like to demo it too.. But it's a 54 .. Which is a little big for me


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## eugenetsang

spdntrxi said:


> Riding friend on mine demoed one.. Didn't have any complaints.. Will hopefully talk to him more this weekend when we ride. I would like to demo it too.. But it's a 54 .. Which is a little big for me


"demoing" a bike for a few minutes around local streets is far different from professional "racing". We normally just scoot around, mess with the gears, pull back on the brakes, and thats that. And conditions are usually at its best. Sunny, warm, and road conditions are DRY. 

Pros on the other hand push themselves and their equipment to their outer limits, time and time again. They ride in all sorts of weather and conditions. So there's no way for us amateurs to compare a "bike" vs how a professional would offer their input, day in and day out.

Also, pros are creatures of habit. They prefer to have a set routine, use equipment that are proven by themselves. Not "proven" by what others in the industry says. Its almost all robotic at that point. They know far they can push themselves and their equipment. I guess thats what sets apart amateurs vs professionals.


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## NealH

Yes, when you're making a million plus in salary and competing for a million in prize money, its not wise to take risks. Contadore won the 2011 Giro on his SL3 Tarmac, months after Specialized introduced the SL4 - and after having tried to get him to ride it.


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## TricrossRich

mile2424 said:


> Just thought I would start a separate thread on this. I know everyone seems to be bashing the new Venge, especially since the pro riders haven't been using them. Whether it's rider preference, the brakes, not enough seat time, or whatever the case may be. I don't know how quickly riders typically adjust or switch to the new bikes when they come out. I seem to remember the original venge first being raced at MSR, and it was incorporated relatively quickly to other pro riders after that. So why aren't other pro riders using it? I know some of the ITU triathletes are now using the Vias as well. It will be really interesting to see what happens early next year when the spring classics and big races come back. Marketing wise, it would look really bad if the big names weren't riding the bike. And of course you don't want to force riders to be riding something they don't like, you want them to love it and want to use it for everything day in and day out.
> 
> I know some of the guys at Spesh have said the reason Cav and Sagan weren't riding them more during the TdF was that they did not have enough seat time and weren't comfortable using them yet. A few months have passed, and we still aren't seeing them being used. What gives?


Next year for the spring classics if the riders aren't on it, it would be bad? I'd say the bad press is already happening.. the fact that we're talking about it in this thread is proof of that. I'm a big Specialized fan-boy, I'll admit that... but I think they dropped the ball on this bike. 



NealH said:


> Yes, when you're making a million plus in salary and competing for a million in prize money, its not wise to take risks. Contadore won the 2011 Giro on his SL3 Tarmac, months after Specialized introduced the SL4 - and after having tried to get him to ride it.


and yet, last year, when they introduced the "SL5" almost all of the riders switched immediately and they all seemed to love it, so when the bike is right, they've got no problems making the jump.


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## spdntrxi

eugenetsang said:


> "demoing" a bike for a few minutes around local streets is far different from professional "racing". We normally just scoot around, mess with the gears, pull back on the brakes, and thats that. And conditions are usually at its best. Sunny, warm, and road conditions are DRY.
> 
> Pros on the other hand push themselves and their equipment to their outer limits, time and time again. They ride in all sorts of weather and conditions. So there's no way for us amateurs to compare a "bike" vs how a professional would offer their input, day in and day out.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, pros are creatures of habit. They prefer to have a set routine, use equipment that are proven by themselves. Not "proven" by what others in the industry says. Its almost all robotic at that point. They know far they can push themselves and their equipment. I guess thats what sets apart amateurs vs professionals.


it was a 42 miles demo... with 2.5k of climbing... so it was a little more involved. I can do the same, but not sure a 54 will really tell me anything.. I'd have to put the seat so low like the old days


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## Rashadabd

I am not a fan of the bike's looks, but I am of the to each his own perspective. To clarify one point though, Cavendish actually used the bike for the British National Championship. Here's the race if you actually want to see it in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsxZX0lzA04


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## MMsRepBike

Rashadabd said:


> I am not a fan of the bike's looks, but I am of the to each his own perspective. To clarify one point though, Cavendish actually used the bike for the British National Championship. Here's the race if you actually want to see it in action:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsxZX0lzA04


He also gave an interview after that race saying he didn't trust the brakes and had a really close call during it. That was the race that made him decide not to ride it after.

https://youtu.be/ceDXIqhVf7k?t=50s


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## spdntrxi

The 49 is fugly.. The 52/54 are the sweet spots looks wise for this frame


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## NealH

Whatever the issue is with the brakes, and any other area, it will get corrected. Not sure if they will address the ugliness of the steerer/handlebar interface but, I guess its not a performance issue so to speak. But the pro teams should have these bikes by next year so I will speculate that we will see them far more often - at least on the boring flat stages.


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## mile2424

Just to be clear, I was never posting this message saying the bike is a failure. I think most of the naysayers haven't ridden one first hand, or are just passing along the rumors they here such as Cav not liking the brakes, and Sagan not riding for every race, etc. I was just wondering when we will see the pro's adapt and use the bike more regularly, and it seems like this is only a matter of more seat time and more availability to supply the rest of the riders from the pro teams. Nice to see Sagan use it in Stage 4 of AD.


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## thumper8888

TricrossRich said:


> Next year for the spring classics if the riders aren't on it, it would be bad? I'd say the bad press is already happening.. the fact that we're talking about it in this thread is proof of that. I'm a big Specialized fan-boy, I'll admit that... but I think they dropped the ball on this bike.
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, last year, when they introduced the "SL5" almost all of the riders switched immediately and they all seemed to love it, so when the bike is right, they've got no problems making the jump.



+1 on all of this response. And I too, am a fanboy of the company's products.
It's unlikely the spring classics will add much clarity, as this wasn't the machine for many, namely the ones with cobbled sections.


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## Rashadabd

thumper8888 said:


> +1 on all of this response. And I too, am a fanboy of the company's products.
> It's unlikely the spring classics will add much clarity, as this wasn't the machine for many, namely the ones with cobbled sections.


I am not a huge Specialized fan per se, but I love the Tarmac and consider it and the Giant TCR as the gold standard for all-around race bikes. I agree with both you and Rich on this one as well. 

The only thing I will add is that aero road bikes are being used more often in the cobbled classics these days than you might expect. Both Flanders and Milan San Remo were won on them this year (Giant and Canyon) and Team Sky created their new cobble bike out of their aero road bike (F8 and K8). The KOM jersey at the Vuelta was won on an aero Fuji Transonic and we all know what Froome does on his Pinarello. I don't expect to see a pure aero road bike ridden to victory at Roubaix any time soon, but they really are full season bikes at this point. Most of Team MTN Qhubeka/Dimension Data ride theirs (Cervelo S3 and S5) all year as well. 

I guess Sagan and Lizzie brought balance back to the universe with their wins at the World Championships though, lol.


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## davidka

It's interesting to ponder. There are several aero bikes on the market now that regular riders own and enjoy (Giant, Fuji, Cervelo, Trek) for all of their riding. The VIAS seemed to review well but I have yet to see one in the wild. There were a TON of specialized's under riders at the world's in Richmond, but not one VIAS that I could find. 

I think part of the issue among the pro field is that the bike is simply heavy, even by aero bike standards. Judging by now many "regular" road bikes we see in the pro peloton, that must still be a factor.


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## eugenetsang

davidka said:


> I think part of the issue among the pro field is that the bike is simply heavy, even by aero bike standards. Judging by now many "regular" road bikes we see in the pro peleton, that must still be a factor.


Funny you mentioned, "heavy". A few weeks ago, after my group ride, we stopped by my LBS for some coffee. They had a ViAS lying around. I'm not sure if it's a demo model or customer's. But it was on display with Zipps, cages, and Look Blades pedals.

The size was a little larger than what I ride (52). So my guess is that it was a 54... I went to pick it up and was shocked to see how heavy it was. I ride an older tarmac SL2. So to compare, my bike is a cow compared to the newer bikes that are out on the market. 

I was shocked that the ViAS was only slightly lighter than mine.


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## TricrossRich

davidka said:


> It's interesting to ponder. There are several aero bikes on the market now that regular riders own and enjoy (Giant, Fuji, Cervelo, Trek) for all of their riding. The VIAS seemed to review well buy I have yet to see one in the wild. There were a TON of specialized's under riders at the world's in Richmond, but not one VIAS that I could find.
> 
> I think part of the issue among the pro field is that the bike is simply heavy, even by aero bike standards. Judging by now many "regular" road bikes we see in the pro peleton, that must still be a factor.


I agree... as someone that uses a 1st Gen. Venge as my everyday bike that I do a fair bit of climbing on, I know that aero bikes aren't heavy... but there seems to be something about the Vias the pros are objecting too... I really think it is the brakes more than the weight. When I first saw the design, the brakes were my concern. All of the bikes that use proprietary brakes, people complain about... The Giant Propel, the BMC TMR01, etc... I've seen mixed reviews about all of them.




eugenetsang said:


> Funny you mentioned, "heavy". A few weeks ago, after my group ride, we stopped by my LBS for some coffee. They had a ViAS lying around. I'm not sure if it's a demo model or customer's. But it was on display with Zipps, cages, and Look Blades pedals.
> 
> The size was a little larger than what I ride (52). So my guess is that it was a 54... I went to pick it up and was shocked to see how heavy it was. I ride an older tarmac SL2. So to compare, my bike is a cow compared to the newer bikes that are out on the market.
> 
> I was shocked that the ViAS was only slightly lighter than mine.


Eugene... I'm pretty sure I know what shop you're talking about.. LOL I actually saw ViAS in the wild, back in September, up in Palisades Park... Was a big dude riding it... he said it was his first "real" bike and he went a bit overboard... said it was "way more bike than I need or deserve, but I was in the right place at the right time and couldn't say no." I didn't pick it up or touch it, so I don't know if the bike was heavy or not. The guy did say he loved it, but I also don't really know if he was experienced to know if the bike was doing things the way most would expect.


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## eugenetsang

TricrossRich said:


> Eugene... I'm pretty sure I know what shop you're talking about.. LOL I actually saw ViAS in the wild, back in September, up in Palisades Park... Was a big dude riding it... he said it was his first "real" bike and he went a bit overboard... said it was "way more bike than I need or deserve, but I was in the right place at the right time and couldn't say no." I didn't pick it up or touch it, so I don't know if the bike was heavy or not. The guy did say he loved it, but I also don't really know if he was experienced to know if the bike was doing things the way most would expect.




Rich,

haha yeah we were at Strictly's. it was a cold morning. We needed some coffee to warm us up (post ride). The ViAS was on "display" by the shoes and helmet shelving unit. I mean, there isn't many of them around. So it may possibly be the same bike/owner you're referring to.

To the guy dropping $13,000 on a bike without hesitation... We're doing something wrong haha.


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## TricrossRich

eugenetsang said:


> Rich,
> 
> haha yeah we were at Strictly's. it was a cold morning. We needed some coffee to warm us up (post ride). The ViAS was on "display" by the shoes and helmet shelving unit. I mean, there isn't many of them around. So it may possibly be the same bike/owner you're referring to.
> 
> To the guy dropping $13,000 on a bike without hesitation... We're doing something wrong haha.


Nah... the guy I saw had the Roval CLX64's. It was the full deal...


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## eugenetsang

bike game is getting super serious in the North East!


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## eugenetsang

Found this article about the ViAS. It looks super complicated to build, especially with all of its hidden cables and gadgets. 

The article says the final build weight (minus pedals) weighs in a hefty 17.57lbs. Maybe that is reason as to why the Pros are not riding it.

Maybe ViAS v2.0 will come down in weight and fixes the braking issue. I'm no engineer or physicist. But the brakes seem not to be in the most optimal position, especially the front brake. It seems logically for the best stopping power, it should be placed back in its traditional position. But that will negate their drag that they are trying to limit.


Building the Specialized Venge Vias | secondnaturecycling


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## tranzformer




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## ifp1127

eugenetsang said:


> Rich,
> 
> haha yeah we were at Strictly's. it was a cold morning. We needed some coffee to warm us up (post ride). The ViAS was on "display" by the shoes and helmet shelving unit. I mean, there isn't many of them around. So it may possibly be the same bike/owner you're referring to.
> 
> To the guy dropping $13,000 on a bike without hesitation... We're doing something wrong haha.


Specialized Financing: no finance charges if paid off in 1 year, so...10% down, $975. monthly(?)


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## mile2424

Chalk up another win in the pro peloton for the Vias. Haters going to hate...


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## mjdwyer23

Mine's in the shop getting built now -- can't wait!


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## Lelandjt

Yikes! 17.5lbs without pedals? My 61cm Fuji Transonic is 14.6lbs with pedals. I chose aero over weight (coulda dropped over a pound with their climbing frame/fork and 24mm deep rims) but wouldn't make that choice if the weight penalty was so large.


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## TricrossRich

I thought it was this thread, but I can't find the post so it must've been another... but I know that someone (MMsRepBike, maybe) said that a lot of the pro were complaining of the front fork flexing under braking and the front brake would hit the down tube... Look at these pics of Kittel's Vias from today in belgium.


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## mile2424

that's only suppose to be an issue on the smaller frames I believe, 54 and below


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## spdntrxi

Maybe it's throwing down 1600w+ too


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## MMsRepBike

Yeah, it was me I think, I've seen it in person. I do a lot of high speed descents with fast and hard braking before turns and I've heard it hit and seen the same thing as pictured above. I think the guy has a size 54.

I know that the disc brake version is out there being tested and whatnot but I've yet to see much talk about the normal rim brake version I saw a while back. Wonder if they plan on putting that out to the public or not.


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## Rashadabd

I am guessing it will be even heavier with discs (for those that care about that kind of thing), but maybe that will help address some of these other issues. At the end of the day, I expected a better all-around design and I wouldn't be surprised if this gets updated sooner rather than later. Here's the disc version. 

Is the Specialized Venge Vias getting a disc brake option? - Bikerumor

Specialized Venge Vias disc photos leaked? | Cyclist


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## tranzformer

MMsRepBike said:


> I've yet to see much talk about the normal rim brake version I saw a while back.


I think much interest in the Venge ViAS has decreased since its release. For many people, the faults of the bike don't outweighs the pros. I can see why it really hasn't taken off. Especially in light of the other options available on the market.


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## mjdwyer23

I just got on mine this week -- S-Works version with Hed Jet 9 Black wheelset. I friggin love it -- braking feels awesome and the bike is a rocket ship. I'm coming from a Cervelo S3 Di2 w/ Hed Jet 6 Black wheels. This bike does it all, can't wait to put more miles on!


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## faroodi

mjdwyer23 said:


> I'm coming from a Cervelo S3 Di2 w/ Hed Jet 6 Black wheels. !


Enjoy the new bike! What year was the S3?


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## mjdwyer23

faroodi said:


> Enjoy the new bike! What year was the S3?


2015 w/ Ultegra Di2.


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## faroodi

mjdwyer23 said:


> 2015 w/ Ultegra Di2.


What's your perspective on how they compare?


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## mjdwyer23

I've been on it for 2 weeks at this point, swapped out the stock Roval CLX64 for Hed Jet 9 Black. Other than that, stock. I absolutely love it. The thing is a rocket ship. When you stomp on it, it just goes, whether seated or out of the saddle. I find the braking to be excellent and on par with my previous rim brake experiences. 

Taking it up one of the local mountains (gibraltar rd in SB) in the next few weekends, can't wait to rip it!


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## eugenetsang

Sagan win the last stage of the Tour de Suisse '16 and the overall GC lead with his Venge ViAS! Anyone know what kind of changes Specialized had made to Sagan's frame vs last year's ViAS?


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## TricrossRich

eugenetsang said:


> Sagan win the last stage of the Tour de Suisse '16 and the overall GC lead with his Venge ViAS! Anyone know what kind of changes Specialized had made to Sagan's frame vs last year's ViAS?


The facts are a little wrong... he didn't win the last stage, the race isn't over yet. He won stage 2 and 3, both on the ViAS and he currently has the overall, but he'll probably lose it once the race goes into the mountains... I say probably because I've learned never to count him out.

I don't believe that Specialized has mad any changes.... other than some people have noted external cable holes molded into the frames because the teams run non-standard bars and stems as per sponsor agreements, but that's been covered in the thread already. He rode the ViAS a few days in California, but it seems like any day that involves climbing, even if i may ultimately result in a sprint, he rides the Tarmac.


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## spdntrxi

TricrossRich said:


> The facts are a little wrong... he didn't win the last stage, the race isn't over yet. He won stage 2 and 3, both on the ViAS and he currently has the overall, but he'll probably lose it once the race goes into the mountains... I say probably because I've learned never to count him out.
> 
> I don't believe that Specialized has mad any changes.... other than some people have noted external cable holes molded into the frames because the teams run non-standard bars and stems as per sponsor agreements, but that's been covered in the thread already. He rode the ViAS a few days in California, but it seems like any day that involves climbing, even if i may ultimately result in a sprint, he rides the Tarmac.


I'm a moderate weight weenie... I sure wish it was lighter, because I've seen a few built up properly.. DA9000 or Etap. Zipp NSW kinds of builds and it's a beautiful bike. I should ask my LBS to loan me one.


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## mile2424

spdntrxi said:


> I'm a moderate weight weenie... I sure wish it was lighter, because I've seen a few built up properly.. DA9000 or Etap. Zipp NSW kinds of builds and it's a beautiful bike. I should ask my LBS to loan me one.


Aren't Zipp NSW similar in weight to rovals?


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## eugenetsang

the Tarmac is definitely a climber's bike. I don't foresee many people using the venge/ViAS on the climbing stages.

What's odd, saw Sagan on the ViAS during the wet stages. Last year during the TdF, many Specialized riders were bashing the brakes, especially during wet weather. Seeing Sagan rocking the ViAS, I thought spesh made changes to the bike...


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## taodemon

eugenetsang said:


> the Tarmac is definitely a climber's bike. I don't foresee many people using the venge/ViAS on the climbing stages.
> 
> What's odd, saw Sagan on the ViAS during the wet stages. Last year during the TdF, many Specialized riders were bashing the brakes, especially during wet weather. Seeing Sagan rocking the ViAS, I thought spesh made changes to the bike...


I know a lot of the etixx vias bikes have had standard sponsor bars with external routing to where the cables normally go into the frame but yesterday Sagan was in a full ViAS build with complete internal routing, in the rain where supposedly the braking isn't as good. Could that just have been the riders not being used to the feel of the brakes during the last tour?


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## MMsRepBike

Could be the new brake pads they're using. Plus Spec said those early bikes were "prototypes" whatever that means.


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## eugenetsang

Imagine braking issues from last years TdF were from poor brake pads! The irony! Glad to see more riders winning races for the ViAS this year!


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## taodemon

Did a short test ride on one today. It felt faster, snappier and stiffer than my current venge while at the same time being smoother. It had all the spacers still in so I felt a little cramped by how high up the handlebars were but overall I was pleasantly surprised by it. I wouldnt drop 13k on it but once they have more reasonable models or prices I would consider getting one. Haven't been on the new madone yet though.

I was really impressed by the power saddle and will probably pick one up for my bike.


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## Merc

I love my ViAS, I only wish I waited a year to buy it since Specialized just reduced them 25% during the month of July. Guess they need to move inventory. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## taodemon

Merc said:


> I love my ViAS, I only wish I waited a year to buy it since Specialized just reduced them 25% during the month of July. Guess they need to move inventory.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They wouldn't be doing this because they have upcoming design changes to it and need to move the "old" new stuff?, still the price is pretty tempting for the pro.


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## thumper8888

*"Venge Brakes No Longer Terrible" .... This might be the reason for the discount....*

Trying to clear inventory before introducing mid-production tweaks to the brakes, Vias 2.0?
I'd hope that the changes also include whatever it takes to keep the front brake from scraping the downtube under heaving braking in downhill turns... or maybe a Win Tunnel miracle occurred and they've figured out a way to make that coming disc version so aero that's the only version they'll have?
Yu and co. are good and I wouldn't put that past them.
Seems from this report below that there was somewhat more of a controversy over the brakes in the pro peloton than the various hints that have emerged. Sagan and Cavendish seemed really unhappy with them at times, but both have (or in Cavendish's case HAVE had) close ties with Specialized and knew that being publicly and explicitly vocal would cost the company hundreds of thousands or maybe millions, in sales.
Modifications would be an admission by the company that the issues are real, and human nature being what it is, people would shy away from initial version... though pretty much every real world rider who has reported in here and elsewhere don't seem to have major concerns.

From Velonews "tour notebook":
Venge brakes no longer terrible
Etixx – Quick-Step has new internals in the integrated brakes on its Specialized Venge frames. They are a dramatic improvement. The brakes were a source of tension between Mark Cavendish and former sponsor Specialized at the Tour last year. Tech editor Dan Cavallari overheard Max Richeze say the brakes are now “perfect” upon returning from a test ride.


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## mile2424

I would hope they would let the early adopters retrofit the newer brakes, but we shall see. I have asked my dealer.


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## thumper8888

But there doesn't seem to be major issue, right? I mean, you'd be noticing. If they are going to give them out free it's surely worth the swap out, but beyond that seems like it would depend on the cost vs how good or bad you think your brakes are...
Seems like one of those things the company would not be doing a free recall on but maybe would do it at cost, likely on an informal case by case basis, that's probably the likely best case scenario.
Worst case they say pay retail for the parts.
Either way, that story makes it sound like its a straightforward retrofit and the new parts will work on your bike.
It also sounds like their claims that the problems fav etc had were just with early prototypes were a marketing fib.
But... it just doesn't seem clear that the problem(s) are huge.
Clearly tons of people bought the bikes and it doesn't seem like there has been a huge outcry... You use those brakes, what do you think? Is it kind of pro-level nitpicking?


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## mile2424

I agree. I don't think there is really anything wrong with the current brakes. I am just saying if they did find a way to make them better by improving the design and lengthening the spring slightly, I would prefer to have the latest and greatest if possible (especially if they would be willing to do a free swap). If it cost to swap, then I am not sure I would make the switch, depending on the cost.


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## mile2424

no more sale I guess, just got an email saying they made a mistake?


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## GOTA

mile2424 said:


> no more sale I guess, just got an email saying they made a mistake?


Pretty big mistake. It wasn't like it just a line that was wrong. There was a whole write up of the sale. It's almost like someone changed their mind.


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## Merc

mile2424 said:


> no more sale I guess, just got an email saying they made a mistake?


I just saw that email too. I guess they jumped the gun too soon. 


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## Merc

mile2424 said:


> I agree. I don't think there is really anything wrong with the current brakes. I am just saying if they did find a way to make them better by improving the design and lengthening the spring slightly, I would prefer to have the latest and greatest if possible (especially if they would be willing to do a free swap). If it cost to swap, then I am not sure I would make the switch, depending on the cost.


Are these the existing brake calipers or are they new/improved ones? 


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## taodemon

The one on the right supposedly is the new one.


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## eugenetsang

Merc said:


> Are these the existing brake calipers or are they new/improved ones?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


here is a quick read with what's been upgraded to the ViAS brakes...

Tour Tech 2016: Peter Sagan?s Specialized Venge ViAS | road.cc


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## Rashadabd

Merc said:


> I just saw that email too. I guess they jumped the gun too soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They definitely had a sale going on and changed their minds. They actually changed the prices on their website for a while. I am not sure what it all means, just weird.


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## spdntrxi

MikesBikes in NorCal still has them on CLOSEOUT


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## mile2424

ya not sure what their thinking is, maybe 2 wins in 4 stages and they thought that might make people want to go out and buy one? Don't think it has anything to do with the new brakes the whole time. I received word from someone inside specialized that original owners will be taken care of and they said to stay tuned in the coming month or so. Mikes Bikes has had them on sale before, that's how I originally got mine last August.


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## taodemon

I was thinking the same thing, 2 wins in 4 stages and them thinking they could go back to the larger markup. A couple wins in the tdf wouldn't convince me to pay more for it. The sale prices actually had me considering putting off my mtb plans for a 3rd year to get the pro but at normal prices I'm back to the mtb plans.


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## thumper8888

The sale email and retraction thing (attached below) is just crazy. The wording of it is like something out of a politician trying to avoid saying anything at all about ... anything.
This is NOT the Specialized I'm used to, with well-honed PR and marketing.
It may well have nothing at all to do with brakes, but it's starting to feel like the bike has some sort of low-grade curse on it.
Clearly the company flatly lied about the nature of the issues the pros raised last year, that it was all because they were on early prototypes.
As to the actual changes, it sounds like they want the things to release more quickly and have a bit more modulation -- longer spring, bushing with less friction. Doesn't look huge, but if they are truly going to do the mod for free they are conceding it's a genuine problem that should be fixed. But the head-fake sale...geez, this is all just too weird.
Bottom line, though, is that clearly the bike isn't holding back sagan or kittel and 2424 likes his... 


AND NOW, THE RELEGATION
It happens all the time in the sprint—your head is down, the elbows are out, and you're full-steam ahead before you realize you've been put on the barriers. For lack of a better metaphor, this is what happened when we told you that our Venge ViAS was going to be on sale. 

We'd like to apologize for calling our line wrong with this promotion—we jumped our sprint too soon. We'll lead it out better on the next stage.

Thanks for understanding.


----------



## MMsRepBike

thumper8888 said:


> This is NOT the Specialized I'm used to, with well-honed PR and marketing.


Oh yes it is. You're just starting to see the light a little bit now.

You must not have been around when Chris Yu came here to back up their marketing claims and got destroyed and left with his tail between his legs.


----------



## taodemon

MMsRepBike said:


> Oh yes it is. You're just starting to see the light a little bit now.
> 
> You must not have been around when Chris Yu came here to back up their marketing claims and got destroyed and left with his tail between his legs.


I remember him not hanging around for long but no the getting destroyed part. I'm sure he had better things to do then lurk in forums all day.


----------



## mile2424

I don't recall exactly what was discussed, but Chris always seems like a very stand up and honest guy who's willing to explain and share the insight into the design.


----------



## MMsRepBike

mile2424 said:


> I don't recall exactly what was discussed, but Chris always seems like a very stand up and honest guy who's willing to explain and share the insight into the design.


Maybe go back and read it. He was completely unwilling to answer my questions or lay out where their numbers came from. He wouldn't even share any data at all about the Vias frame alone. There was no being stand up at all there and there was no explanation about anything. He refused to answer the questions and left.


----------



## vjayh

Yeah, for whatever reason they did it, you have to question whether you want to do business with a company that puts a sale on and then retracts it 3 days later. Just bad business ethics. Having owned a couple of Robaix's, I was thinking of jumping into a Venge given the sale. Now I'm thinking of jumping to another manufacturer. Shame.


----------



## thumper8888

MMsRepBike said:


> Maybe go back and read it. He was completely unwilling to answer my questions or lay out where their numbers came from. He wouldn't even share any data at all about the Vias frame alone. There was no being stand up at all there and there was no explanation about anything. He refused to answer the questions and left.



You and the OP are both right I think, and that's not a really a contradiction. He came and answered a bunch of questions pretty straight up, but I think he was essentially here to deal head on with the skepticism and throat-clearing over their various conflations to get to 5 minutes, not with harder, kind of crisis-PR management stuff when the going got tough.
....so when the hard questions started about why Cavendish and Sagan weren't riding the bike much on hills or in rain, there was a puff of smoke and he vanished. He's essentially an engineer not a trained corporate communicator and a load of money was on the line.
I don't blame him... he could stay on and answer those sorts of questions and take the heat for screwing up his wording if he worked for a two-man backyard bike builder... but I was surprised he was even as candid as he was, given their button-down, Kremlin-like control of information that could affect sales.
All this is an aberration anyway.... they don't make long strings of mistakes and they'll square all this up eventually.
I'm still holding out for ViaS 2.0, debugged, and 15 lbs.


----------



## taodemon

I saw it basically same way as you thumper. For his brief stay he answered some of the questions, avoided some of the more PR ones, and didn't seem to lie about anything. Also keep in mind that he visited a couple different bike forums with similar info so besides likely having better work related things to do than answer 20 questions on a forum he was answering a few spread out on various forums.

I'm also still hoping for a 2.0 at 15lbs. They tempted me with the price drop but were quick to remedy that.


----------



## spdntrxi

mile2424 said:


> . Mikes Bikes has had them on sale before, that's how I originally got mine last August.


yeah MegaSale maybe... but actually saying "closeout" makes me think changes are coming.


----------



## thumper8888

Maybe, but it seems early for major changes... could just be everything the same but the brakes, with the next round of bikes coming through having the new ones.
They look simple to retrofit. 
I guess in theory they could also make some moderate changes, like beefing up something so the front brakes can't scrape inside that notch on the downtube... but a major makeover is unlikely. The things that need changing seem mostly minor.
Though as stated I'd like to see the frame a lot lighter.
As to the sale, if it truly was going to lure you onto one, I'd just go to a dealer and say look, help a brother out. 25 percent off is within their margin on the thing, and selling a bike for a few bucks -- and maybe larding you down with more profitable items like helmets, etc -- rather than not selling one is something at least a few dealers would take you up on.... especially if the bikes aren't selling like they were initially.


----------



## taodemon

thumper8888 said:


> Maybe, but it seems early for major changes... could just be everything the same but the brakes, with the next round of bikes coming through having the new ones.
> They look simple to retrofit.
> I guess in theory they could also make some moderate changes, like beefing up something so the front brakes can't scrape inside that notch on the downtube... but a major makeover is unlikely. The things that need changing seem mostly minor.
> Though as stated I'd like to see the frame a lot lighter.
> As to the sale, if it truly was going to lure you onto one, I'd just go to a dealer and say look, help a brother out. 25 percent off is within their margin on the thing, and selling a bike for a few bucks -- and maybe larding you down with more profitable items like helmets, etc -- rather than not selling one is something at least a few dealers would take you up on.... especially if the bikes aren't selling like they were initially.


I've gotten over the temptation already even if I were to have 25% off I think. Plus I already have the extras/accessories unless I was to get the skinsuit, but I don't like the colors it comes in. Waiting for a light weight frame sounds like a better option and also allows me to get the mtb I have been wanting to pick up for 3 years now to ride with some friends.

I'm pretty sure the reason that the VIAS hasn't sold well is more the price points that it is available in than any bugs/issues with the bike (though those don't really help its situation). I haven't seen any on the road personally in central MA, but at least a few Madones roaming around and at least 2 riders I know picked up madones.

Not having a VIAS doesn't seem to be hurting Cav any either.


----------



## thumper8888

taodemon said:


> I've gotten over the temptation already even if I were to have 25% off I think. Plus I already have the extras/accessories unless I was to get the skinsuit, but I don't like the colors it comes in. Waiting for a light weight frame sounds like a better option and also allows me to get the mtb I have been wanting to pick up for 3 years now to ride with some friends.


Good priorities. Riding with buddies should be at the top of the list. Everyone has different reasons for riding, and different goals, but without that one I can't imagine bothering.


----------



## taodemon

taodemon said:


> Did a short test ride on one today. It felt faster, snappier and stiffer than my current venge while at the same time being smoother. It had all the spacers still in so I felt a little cramped by how high up the handlebars were but overall I was pleasantly surprised by it.


So monday my venge was in the shop getting a 34 small ring put on for this weekends greylock century (lots of climbing) so I took out my dads '14 ultegra comp tarmac and it reminded me of how the VIAS felt except for a lot less aero. This was especially noticeable when out of the saddle on climbs. The tarmac felt more efficient climbing out of the saddle than my venge despite being a couple pounds heavier and still all stock components/wheels. So I guess a good way to describe what I was saying above is that the VIAS felt a lot more like a tarmac than the old venge without the aero penalties of the tarmac. Hopefully they can get the weight down on the VIAS soon. 

On a somewhat unrelated note, does anyone know why shifting on the tarmac seems smoother than the venge (6800 on tarmac, 9000 on venge)?


----------



## TricrossRich

taodemon said:


> On a somewhat unrelated note, does anyone know why shifting on the tarmac seems smoother than the venge (6800 on tarmac, 9000 on venge)?


Because all of those cable bends to keep the cables hidden inside introduce drag into the shifting system and makes the Venge not as smooth from a shifting standpoint.


----------



## taodemon

TricrossRich said:


> Because all of those cable bends to keep the cables hidden inside introduce drag into the shifting system and makes the Venge not as smooth from a shifting standpoint.


The Tarmac is internally routed too and they both have similar geometry. Would the tube shapes/profiles have that big of an effect on the shifting?


----------



## TricrossRich

taodemon said:


> The Tarmac is internally routed too and they both have similar geometry. Would the tube shapes/profiles have that big of an effect on the shifting?


Its not the internal routing of the frame that's the problem really... the difficult bends are in the bars, stem area.... I noticed a difference when I went from standard bars to SWorks aerofly bars, not huge, but it was there... My mechanic acted like it was the end of the world, "Oh, the shifting is going to be HORRIBLE!" Its not horrible, but its not quite as crisp. I'd imagine that the ViAS with the bars and stem, etc all internal, making those sharp 90* bends is even little bit worse.


----------



## Merc

mile2424 said:


> Don't think it has anything to do with the new brakes the whole time. I received word from someone inside specialized that original owners will be taken care of and they said to stay tuned in the coming month or so. Mikes Bikes has had them on sale before, that's how I originally got mine last August.


I ordered my ViAS last June/July when the bike was announced and received it in October. Mile2424 what do you mean by your statement, will we get new brakes?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mile2424

Merc said:


> I ordered my ViAS last June/July when the bike was announced and received it in October. Mile2424 what do you mean by your statement, will we get new brakes?


The person I spoke with thought that we should be taken care of. But we shall see. He said to stay tuned in the next month, so probably after the Tour madness and 2017 dealer events settle down.


----------



## taodemon

TricrossRich said:


> Its not the internal routing of the frame that's the problem really... the difficult bends are in the bars, stem area.... I noticed a difference when I went from standard bars to SWorks aerofly bars, not huge, but it was there... My mechanic acted like it was the end of the world, "Oh, the shifting is going to be HORRIBLE!" Its not horrible, but its not quite as crisp. I'd imagine that the ViAS with the bars and stem, etc all internal, making those sharp 90* bends is even little bit worse.


Reasons the DI2 versions of the venge or VIAS might be better options?


----------



## dcorn

taodemon said:


> Reasons the DI2 versions of the venge or VIAS might be better options?


Yup, disc brakes and Di2 solve both Venge Vias problems.


----------



## taodemon

dcorn said:


> Yup, disc brakes and Di2 solve both Venge Vias problems.


Still has the weight problem.


----------



## TricrossRich

taodemon said:


> Still has the weight problem.


Yep, in fact, they make the weight problem worse.


----------



## mile2424

Typically yes the weight gets worse, but do we know that for sure on the Vias? No idea how much the integrated brakes weigh off hand, but just wondering if they are marginal compared to the disc. Will be interesting to see the specs and real weights.


----------



## Butscut

mile2424 said:


> The person I spoke with thought that we should be taken care of. But we shall see. He said to stay tuned in the next month, so probably after the Tour madness and 2017 dealer events settle down.


FWIW, I have also had a lot of issues with my brake set up, primarily the front. As I have a 49cm Venge Vias, I feel that the issues have been somewhat exacerbated. After sending the bike back to Specialized recently for them to review the set up, I have been told that I will receive new replacement brake callipers (front AND back) sometime in mid-September. These sound like the ones pictured previously in this forum and have 1) new stronger springs made from a different material, 2) redesigned bushes to provide less drag on the calliper. I wait with anticipation !


----------



## packetloss

Same with me. The front brakes are horrid. I stopped riding it and went back to my tarmac after getting blisters on my fingers from pressing so hard on the brake levers. Hopefully these replacement brakes are a lot better.

Make no mistake, the current brakes are far worse than anything I have ever ridden. No way would I do steep descents on them.


----------



## mile2424

Not sure how much it has to do with the brake set up. One bike I test rode were ok, and the other one I test rode in a different size had a lot of bite. My current bike seems to ride fine without the upgraded brakes, so it will be interesting to see how much of a difference they make.


----------



## taodemon

mile2424 said:


> Not sure how much it has to do with the brake set up. One bike I test rode were ok, and the other one I test rode in a different size had a lot of bite. My current bike seems to ride fine without the upgraded brakes, so it will be interesting to see how much of a difference they make.



Might also depends on the type of terrain you ride and how often you come to drastic stops. I didn't really get to really test the brakes on my short test ride but they seemed fine for what I was doing. On my 2014 venge the limiting factor for the few drastic stops or speed reductions I have had to make have always been tire traction since the wheels can lock up easily enough with enough braking force.


----------



## Lelandjt

packetloss said:


> Same with me. The front brakes are horrid. I stopped riding it and went back to my tarmac after getting blisters on my fingers from pressing so hard on the brake levers. Hopefully these replacement brakes are a lot better.
> 
> Make no mistake, the current brakes are far worse than anything I have ever ridden. No way would I do steep descents on them.


I bet they could be set up better. I used to compete in trials when cantilever brakes were it and we'd spend considerable time dialing in the brakes to maximize bite. Maybe spend a little time down there seeing if you can get the pads to hit the rim better (no toe-in), lube the cable, and set the springs with just enough tension.


----------



## m3bas

The brake pads on mine don't seem to hit the rim squarely, like only half the pad is engaging. I'm not talking toe-in but vertically.
Anyone else noticed this?
Doesn't seem to be any adjustment possible to the angle they hit the rim.


----------



## Lelandjt

That would certainly cause bad braking and if it really can't be adjusted out is a design defect.


----------



## 11spd

m3bas said:


> The brake pads on mine don't seem to hit the rim squarely, like only half the pad is engaging. I'm not talking toe-in but vertically.
> Anyone else noticed this?
> Doesn't seem to be any adjustment possible to the angle they hit the rim.


Check with your Specialized dealer. They should replace the brakes for you with an updated redesign.

The evolution of the VIAS brake design is an interesting one as it turns out. The original VIAS...hear say....was designed for disk brakes. Then the plug was pulled and a rush caliper version was developed...I heard...based upon pro racing rules of threat of disk banning. Not that pro racing fully allows disk brakes (until somebody bleeds out on the tarmac) the VIAS is offered in disk version only I believe.
If anybody has greater detail on the above, would love to hear.


----------



## 1Butcher

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/venge You can buy both.

What the Specialized Venge ViAS Disc suggests for the future of aero disc road bikes | CyclingTips Not hearsay. 

Brake Adjustment - Vias VENGE Instruction Manual [Page 32] Did you follow the manual for the brake adjustment?


----------



## JohnnyAviator

I guess we could have our answer regarding all of this talk. A lot of the pros ended up using them in early 2016... then I noticed a huge drop around the Eneco Tour.
Then my LBS called me to say that they got a stop sale notice on my Venge Vias. Not considered a recall at the moment. 
There have been times where the rear wheels come out of the dropouts, causing fractures in the frame. Strange, but not unheard of with Specialized.
Specialized is giving asking for 5-7 days to figure out if it will be a full recall or a fix.


----------



## thumper8888

JohnnyAviator said:


> I guess we could have our answer regarding all of this talk. A lot of the pros ended up using them in early 2016... then I noticed a huge drop around the Eneco Tour.
> Then my LBS called me to say that they got a stop sale notice on my Venge Vias. Not considered a recall at the moment.
> There have been times where the rear wheels come out of the dropouts, causing fractures in the frame. Strange, but not unheard of with Specialized.
> Specialized is giving asking for 5-7 days to figure out if it will be a full recall or a fix.



Just clarifying, this is a rim-brake model, right? You say dropouts, so thats what I figure.
Seems odd... if anything, the location of the rear caliper on the rim brake should push the wheel UP under braking... Odd business.


----------



## mile2424

I wonder if this is the failure, this picture has been floating around IG...


----------



## Merc

mile2424 said:


> I wonder if this is the failure, this picture has been floating around IG...


Interesting. This is the first picture that I have seen with this type of failure, but it makes sense under hard braking that this could happen. It could force the wheel up and form cracks that could lead to a broken frame over time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thumper8888

Merc said:


> Interesting. This is the first picture that I have seen with this type of failure, but it makes sense under hard braking that this could happen. It could force the wheel up and form cracks that could lead to a broken frame over time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, that was exactly my first thought. But it just doesn't seem like the wheel could move that much in the drops, or that the rear triangle could move forward enough to do that....And IF the rear wheel is coming out of drops, it seems more likely that in this case the wheel got loose and went sideways with a sharp twist into the driveside seat stay ... that kind of force could easily cause that break/joint failure.

That's a really large contact patch for the secondary bond they used, hard to believe it could come off if it was simply the brake forcing wheel fwd... in that case it would have had to have started with small cracks at the aft end of the patch that tore away, rather than the whole thing suddenly failing, as that overall bond would have stood up to any single incident of force that the brakes could generate. 

But i'd bet on the wheel dropping out and torquing sideways.

Is there any more info floating around about the photo? Could easily be crash damage.
I love carbon frames, and have built and repaired carbon boats. The material is terrific but among other things has to be properly engineered.
Had an SL4 Tarmac fail on me in vaguely similar fashion, right seat stay just folded up as I accelerated from standstill at traffic light. No impact, no massive sprint torque. The likely culprit appeared to be stress causing small crack where rear shifter cable emerged at dropout, and it then failed there, and also promptly broken in a second place, about 6 inches higher. My gut was that the carbon around the cable hole wasn't robust enough.


----------



## mile2424

I forget who originally posted it on IG, but if I remember correctly, the guy had just received his brand new bike, and he claimed he went out and started pedaling and it broke. I think he jokingly claimed he was putting too much power down and it couldn't handle it. Again, I don't know if this is the same issue or not, but this was just a picture I have seen floating around on IG.


----------



## thumper8888

mile2424 said:


> I forget who originally posted it on IG, but if I remember correctly, the guy had just received his brand new bike, and he claimed he went out and started pedaling and it broke. I think he jokingly claimed he was putting too much power down and it couldn't handle it. Again, I don't know if this is the same issue or not, but this was just a picture I have seen floating around on IG.


Woud suck to have a recall for some other issue regarding wheels coming out, on top of the brake issue. The resale on the used rim ones seems to have dropped quite a bit, which is the free market sending a message. But maybe they have gotten it all sorted with the disc one, which I could kind of get excited about if it was two pounds and 2K$ lighter.


----------



## mile2424

No recall is happening. Just a temp stop sale until they can get the new parts sent out. So the low down is this issue is caused by third party skewers and not engaging or being completely tight. The fix is an update to the deraileur hanger which will be replaced on all existing models. If you are using the Roval wheels and the stock skewers then this wasn't an issue.


----------



## dns76

.


----------



## Merc

dns76 said:


> .


Looks like that happened while using their Roval wheelset, which contradicts what the previous post said about them.


----------



## mile2424

very interesting. I think it's possible for this to still happen if the skewers weren't tight, but I agree seems odd. Pretty scary.


----------



## thumper8888

mile2424 said:


> very interesting. I think it's possible for this to still happen if the skewers weren't tight, but I agree seems odd. Pretty scary


Yeah, that could definitely happen.... odds-wise though seems at least somewhere more likely that it was due to the problem that all the chatter is about.
This looks especially messy. They're really, really hard to fix properly when the carbon goes around a dropout.
Calfee won't touch it, and I got warned off it by a couple of the other reputable repair folks... two that some that seemed, shall we say,more ambitious, said they could do it, but I mean, especially when its at a tricky spot you really want the best people around doing the work.
And it was going to cost quite a bit.


----------



## dns76

mile2424 said:


> very interesting. I think it's possible for this to still happen if the skewers weren't tight, but I agree seems odd. Pretty scary.


skewers weren't tight?
the left one have detached carbon layer!


----------



## packetloss

Butscut said:


> FWIW, I have also had a lot of issues with my brake set up, primarily the front. As I have a 49cm Venge Vias, I feel that the issues have been somewhat exacerbated. After sending the bike back to Specialized recently for them to review the set up, I have been told that I will receive new replacement brake callipers (front AND back) sometime in mid-September. These sound like the ones pictured previously in this forum and have 1) new stronger springs made from a different material, 2) redesigned bushes to provide less drag on the calliper. I wait with anticipation !


Has anyone gotten the new brakes yet?


----------



## JohnnyAviator

I meant to ask what the brake issues were earlier on. I know i had to set the tension up a lot... more than i wanted to for a new bike. Are these brakes being send to all Venge buyers or are we responsible for calling and asking?


----------



## packetloss

You have to call and ask.


----------



## Butscut

packetloss said:


> You have to call and ask.


I spoke to Spec yesterday. Looks as though the replacement calipers are still 3-4 weeks away. We are more likely to see the replacement rear drop outs before hand. And YES...you need to ask for the new calipers. PS....I'm in Australia


----------



## Merc

Any update on the "Stop Sale" of the Venge ViAS? Thought specialized said they would have a solution in 5 to 7 business days. My lbs hasn't heard anything yet.


----------



## packetloss

I haven't gotten any new info from my shop either. My guess is they aren't going to solve this issue in "5 - 7 business days". If it was that easy it wouldn't have happened in the first place. They say a lot of thins..... like the brakes are comparable to Dura Ace.


----------



## Josh8

mile2424 said:


> No recall is happening. Just a temp stop sale until they can get the new parts sent out. So the low down is this issue is caused by third party skewers and not engaging or being completely tight. The fix is an update to the deraileur hanger which will be replaced on all existing models. If you are using the Roval wheels and the stock skewers then this wasn't an issue.


Huh. 

Specialized recalling some Venge ViAS Rim frames over dropout concerns | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


----------



## MMsRepBike

mile2424 said:


> No recall is happening.



https://media.specialized.com/Venge ViAS - Rider Notice.pdf

Recall is happening now.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2017/Specialized-Recalls-Road-Bicycles


----------



## mile2424

they aren't giving replacement frames, just asking you to bring in your current frame and get the hanger replaced. I guess for those that have broken their frames, then of course they would replace.


----------



## mile2424

my shop said to go ahead and bring the bike in as they are expecting parts this week. Also said the pre selected gift is new tires


----------



## JimmyORCA

My bike is already in the shop since the news came out. My LBS said that I should get it back by next week. He said the new hanger should arrive in Taiwan in the next few days.


----------



## mile2424

Sagan posted a pic warming up for World's on the Vias, so let's see if he rides it in the race


----------



## Toto76

Had my hanger replaced yesterday. The new hanger is essential identical to the old except it now has the dread lawyer tips like front forks that require you to unscrew the skewer quite a bit to remove the rear wheel.


----------



## packetloss

Toto76 said:


> Had my hanger replaced yesterday. The new hanger is essential identical to the old except it now has the dread lawyer tips like front forks that require you to unscrew the skewer quite a bit to remove the rear wheel.


That doesn't sound like a proper solution, rather a workaround to possibly prevent an accident when the issue does happen.

Kind of like telling people to wrap themselves up in bubble wrap as the solution to the brake issue....


----------



## MMsRepBike

packetloss said:


> That doesn't sound like a proper solution, rather a workaround to possibly prevent an accident when the issue does happen.
> 
> Kind of like telling people to wrap themselves up in bubble wrap as the solution to the brake issue....


The brakes are parallel to the dropout slot.

There's nothing else they can do really, it's a bad design.

There's a reason why nobody else has ever placed a rear brake there before.
It sure isn't because Specialized is cleaver or smart or innovative...


----------



## 1Butcher

The problem appears that the rear wheels are not attached properly. More often than not, the owner has removed the rear wheel for whatever purpose. How do you make a product that a customer can't screw up? Lawyer tabs is one way.

If this is indeed the cause of the problem, it does not appear there is anything wrong with the original part, just the original owner.


----------



## MMsRepBike

1Butcher said:


> The problem appears that the rear wheels are not attached properly. More often than not, the owner has removed the rear wheel for whatever purpose. How do you make a product that a customer can't screw up? Lawyer tabs is one way.
> 
> If this is indeed the cause of the problem, it does not appear there is anything wrong with the original part, just the original owner.


Great assumption on your part.

Unfortunately for you though, you're wrong.


----------



## 1Butcher

For certain, it's my assumption and I may be wrong, but how many have fallen out properly secured? From my understanding, Specialized is indicating the issue is with aftermarket wheels [yeah, it could be a scapegoat]. If that is the case, then for certain someone did not attach it properly. 

Either way, I believe the rear wheel is coming out because it's not attached securely. Lawyer tabs do not prevent the loose wheel, just the aftermath. A lot like seat belts or bubble wrap like Packetloss indicated.


----------



## mile2424

1Butcher said:


> For certain, it's my assumption and I may be wrong, but how many have fallen out properly secured? From my understanding, Specialized is indicating the issue is with aftermarket wheels [yeah, it could be a scapegoat]. If that is the case, then for certain someone did not attach it properly.
> 
> Either way, I believe the rear wheel is coming out because it's not attached securely. Lawyer tabs do not prevent the loose wheel, just the aftermath. A lot like seat belts or bubble wrap like Packetloss indicated.


Your theory is correct from what I have heard. It's only being caused with 3rd party wheels and because the skewers are not tightened correctly. The fix is basically a safety mechanism to prevent this from happening, not the result of a bad frame design.


----------



## 1Butcher

MMsRepBike said:


> The brakes are parallel to the dropout slot.
> 
> There's nothing else they can do really, it's a bad design.
> 
> There's a reason why nobody else has ever placed a rear brake there before.
> It sure isn't because Specialized is cleaver or smart or innovative...


What are you saying? There are plenty of bikes with rear brakes that are low on the chain stays that are more parallel to the drop outs. Are they all bad designs too?

Are you indicating that we should go back to the old school steel frame design?

No, I'm not trying to be 11sp, I just can't grasp that the location of the brakes and a loose quick release causing a frame failure is a bad design. I'm also not saying the Venge has no flaws either.


----------



## Chader09

1Butcher said:


> What are you saying? There are plenty of bikes with rear brakes that are low on the chain stays that are more parallel to the drop outs. Are they all bad designs too?


Agreed. If going from the "normally high" seatstays to lowered seatstays for the brake is a problem, then chainstay mounted brakes would be the ultimate problem (assuming vertical/semi-vertical dropouts).

As with most things, I doubt it is that simple based on the fact that many road/TT/Tri bikes have used the CS brake location with vertical dropouts (although some have used horizontal dropouts too). 

A static freebody diagram might give some insight into the direction of forces and likelyhood of this failure.

All that said, I still suspect the improperly tightened QR is really the culprit here.

The ultimate solution to this specific failure would be closed dropouts with a thru-axle. With that, a loose axle will result in some slop of the wheel, but not a total ejection that seems to be the issue here.


----------



## Toto76

MMsRepBike said:


> Great assumption on your part.
> 
> Unfortunately for you though, you're wrong.


I would like to see your evidence on how he is wrong and you are right. From all accounts this has occurred on 5 of over 1000 bikes sold, so 0.5%. 

That to me sounds more likely to be a potential user error rather than poor design. 

The outcome when it fails may be worse potentially due to the brake placement, but in saying that I am sure when the bike was designed they were not worrying about or testing for people who did not fit their rear wheel correctly.


----------



## MMsRepBike

1Butcher said:


> What are you saying? There are plenty of bikes with rear brakes that are low on the chain stays that are more parallel to the drop outs. Are they all bad designs too?
> 
> Are you indicating that we should go back to the old school steel frame design?
> 
> No, I'm not trying to be 11sp, I just can't grasp that the location of the brakes and a loose quick release causing a frame failure is a bad design. I'm also not saying the Venge has no flaws either.


I'm saying exactly what I said, which you didn't seem to be able to understand.

The brake pads and the slot of the rear hanger are parallel. 

How are under the chainstay brake pads parallel to the dropout hanger slot? They're not. How are any other brake pad placements parallel to the dropout slot? They're not. They're only that way on the new Venge.

And funny enough, only the new Venge has this problem.

Only aftermarket wheels? Have you not seen the pictures with the stock wheels and destroyed frames?

Let me tell you something, the CPSC does not issue mandatory recalls for a product that doesn't have any problems with it's safety. If this was a case of user error, it would apply to every bike out there.


----------



## taodemon

MMsRepBike said:


> The brake pads and the slot of the rear hanger are parallel.


You are going to have to explain/diagram this better. The brake pads are midway on the seat tube. Functionally I'm not sure where there would be significant difference from the previous madone that had it under the bottom bracket, or even from typical seat stay brakes unless there is something specific to how the VIAS rim brakes work that is causing the issue?


----------



## goodboyr

After looking at a picture of the bike, I think I get what he's saying. The pads are in alignment with the angle of the dropout slots. So, in a sudden braking situation, the reaction force trying to pull the wheel axle down and out of the slot is maximized. Other designs do not have the pads exactly aligned so the force vector is less. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## MMsRepBike

goodboyr said:


> After looking at a picture of the bike, I think I get what he's saying. The pads are in alignment with the angle of the dropout slots. So, in a sudden braking situation, the reaction force trying to pull the wheel axle down and out of the slot is maximized. Other designs do not have the pads exactly aligned so the force vector is less.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Thanks.


----------



## taodemon

goodboyr said:


> After looking at a picture of the bike, I think I get what he's saying. The pads are in alignment with the angle of the dropout slots. So, in a sudden braking situation, the reaction force trying to pull the wheel axle down and out of the slot is maximized. Other designs do not have the pads exactly aligned so the force vector is less.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Ok, I guess I can kind of see that, but would the difference in the vector forces be that much different due to the position/alignment of the pads where it would only happen in that exact spot? Is the alignment actually exactly parallel or just close enough? Hard to tell without taking a closer look at one or seeing CADs. 

Either way not vital enough for me to actually try to figure out the exact calculations behind it since it wouldn't change the fact that there are in fact issues.

Plus it's one more excuse for me to stick to my current venge and not buy the new one (already had plenty anyways).


----------



## goodboyr

Looking at it further, I think we've got it backwards. Braking will tend to push the axle deeper into dropouts as the reaction force will try to pivot the wheel up. A sudden acceleration OTOH will try to pull the wheel out of the dropout. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jackhammer

goodboyr said:


> Looking at it further, I think we've got it backwards. Braking will tend to push the axle deeper into dropouts as the reaction force will try to pivot the wheel up. A sudden acceleration OTOH will try to pull the wheel out of the dropout.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


so it's a bike designed for weaker riders?


----------



## 1Butcher

goodboyr said:


> Looking at it further, I think we've got it backwards. Braking will tend to push the axle deeper into dropouts as the reaction force will try to pivot the wheel up. A sudden acceleration OTOH will try to pull the wheel out of the dropout.


That's what I thought on the first go around. Even if what MMsRepBike said was true, is there that much force [since the two places that there is force is the brake pads and the tire contact that actually does the braking] on the axle that it would pull out. If there was, wouldn't a properly secured skewer show signs the shredding the drop out.


----------



## 1Butcher

MMsRepBike said:


> Let me tell you something, the CPSC does not issue mandatory recalls for a product that doesn't have any problems with it's safety. If this was a case of user error, it would apply to every bike out there.


That's a huge leap. Since not all bikes are built the same, they all will break differently. I could not imagine a metal frame breaking right there.

I will agree, that the junction was not engineered to withstand that kind of scenario.

I believe the average pro road race puts more stress on a frame than what the average consumer can do in a life time. That said, with a properly torqued skewer, the pros are not having that problem.


----------



## Jackhammer

1Butcher said:


> That's a huge leap. Since not all bikes are built the same, they all will break differently. I could not imagine a metal frame breaking right there.
> 
> I will agree, that the junction was not engineered to withstand that kind of scenario.
> 
> I believe the average pro road race puts more stress on a frame than what the average consumer can do in a life time. That said, with a properly torqued skewer, the pros are not having that problem.


Properly torqued skewer?

I thought skewers should be closed firmly, not require a test of hand strength to operate?

This would rule out Ti skewers?

Specialized has outdone themselves here and yet there are evidently still people lined up to buy a $13K bicycle? Great marketing here though!


2016 CBR600RR Overview - Honda Powersports


----------



## 1Butcher

Torqued as in properly tighten. Nothing to do with a torque wrench.

I do not believe there is way to measure the torque of a skewer. Your hand tight will be different than mine. With the friction on the skewer cam, that would change the force applied too.

Either way, I'm convinced that if the wheel is loose, the wheel will fall out and cause the damage like we've seen. If it's tight, nothing would happen. The lawyer tab is one way of dealing with the skewer not being torqued properly.


----------



## Jackhammer

1Butcher said:


> Torqued as in properly tighten. Nothing to do with a torque wrench.
> 
> I do not believe there is way to measure the torque of a skewer. Your hand tight will be different than mine. With the friction on the skewer cam, that would change the force applied too.
> 
> Either way, I'm convinced that if the wheel is loose, the wheel will fall out and cause the damage like we've seen. If it's tight, nothing would happen. The lawyer tab is one way of dealing with the skewer not being torqued properly.


Hmm, tight for a skewer should be any healthy adult person's ability to tighten. 

If if the rear dropout is encountering forces sufficient to pull the wheel out, it's a very poor design. 

So so those huge forces are going to be regularly directed in the direction of the lawyer tab?

I guarantee this is not the case in the overwhelming majority of bicycles.


----------



## 1Butcher

I'm assuming the skewer was never tighten properly. This would lead to the rear wheel coming out. That would happen to any frame. 

What I believe is the issue here is that the way the Venge is built leads to the rear wheel jamming and breaking the frame. 

If the frame was never damaged, it would not even be talked about.

If you are correct with your assumption that the skewer was tight, then I can understand your thought. I just believe if it was tight, it could not come out.

The amount of force one could generate is not going to change severely by a frame design. The way the rear wheel is attached to the frame is not much different than any other frame out there. The way the rear triangle is attached to the front is different and that is why they break. The breaking frame made the news and thus the recall.

Again, I do not believe there is a tool that could duplicate a proper skewer tension. Everyone has a different feeling on what is tight and what is loose. That is the variable on why one wheel comes loose and another one does not.


----------



## dcorn

LOL So let me get this straight. First the brakes aren't nearly strong enough to slow the bike down when descending. Now all of a sudden, the rear brakes are so strong that they are ripping the wheel out of the dropouts, even with the friction force of the skewer and the weight of the rider keeping the wheel in place? 

And you guys wonder why the industry is trending towards thru-axles? It sure prevents idiots from not knowing how to use a skewer and breaking their frame when the wheel comes out. Did Trek have this same problem because people weren't using the skewers correctly? 

Any of you guys own a 14-15 Jeep Grand Cherokee? A perfect example of a huge product recall and even some deaths because of user error. I have one and the shifter tells you in two places what gear you're in, plus it dings at you if you open the door when not in park. If you choose not to look at the gear indicators, ignore the warning chime, and get out of the car while it's still in neutral and it runs you over, how exactly is that Jeep's fault?


----------



## goodboyr

The fact is, we are just speculating as to the exact failure mode. All we know is that the fix is lawyer tabs. As usual, spesh is not forthcoming with the details. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Migen21

mile2424 said:


> Your theory is correct from what I have heard. It's only being caused with 3rd party wheels and because the skewers are not tightened correctly. The fix is basically a safety mechanism to prevent this from happening, not the result of a bad frame design.


I'm curious.

What is unique about the Specialized wheels/skewers that makes them immune to this problem? Does the bike come with some kind of special skewer unique to this frame? What about other Specailzed wheels/skewers?


----------



## MMsRepBike

goodboyr said:


> The fact is, we are just speculating as to the exact failure mode. All we know is that the fix is lawyer tabs. As usual, spesh is not forthcoming with the details.


For sure.


----------



## Jackhammer

goodboyr said:


> The fact is, we are just speculating as to the exact failure mode. All we know is that the fix is lawyer tabs. As usual, spesh is not forthcoming with the details.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


If Specialized is correct, a force is driving the axle out of the dropout which they hope to restrict with these tabs. 

Is this force encountered on any other bikes?

Lawyer tabs on the front dropouts only have to overcome the force of gravity on the front wheel which is a pretty weak force 

They seem to to be trying to compensate for a major design defect.


----------



## goodboyr

The front lawyer tabs kind of make sense. Since the brakes in the front are behind the axis of the wheel, stopping tends to try to rotate the axle out of the front fork dropouts. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jackhammer

goodboyr said:


> The front lawyer tabs kind of make sense. Since the brakes in the front are behind the axis of the wheel, stopping tends to try to rotate the axle out of the front fork dropouts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


On a properly secured front wheel, lawyer tabs have no function at all. 

This is why they were removed by competent users, pro teams and experienced racers. Any reasonable firmness on the lever kept the front wheel in place. 

If there is not a design defect here, can we be expecting lawyer tabs on the rear wheels of the rest of Specialized line?

I don't think so.

edit, unless the seat stays are purely cosmetic and bear almost no loads and are getting in the way of improperly secured wheels.


----------



## 1Butcher

It's against the rules to get rid of the lawyer tabs per the new UCI rules, so only outlaws would remove the tabs.

Of course we are all speculating, but if the rear wheel was attached properly it would not come out, so it's a good conclusion to assume that the wheel is not attached securely. 

I really do not believe the type of brakes it has, has little to do with the issue. It's the catastrophe that is the result of human error that makes the headlines.


----------



## Jackhammer

1Butcher said:


> It's against the rules to get rid of the lawyer tabs per the new UCI rules, so only outlaws would remove the tabs.
> 
> Of course we are all speculating, but if the rear wheel was attached properly it would not come out, so it's a good conclusion to assume that the wheel is not attached securely.
> 
> I really do not believe the type of brakes it has, has little to do with the issue. It's the catastrophe that is the result of human error that makes the headlines.


which is why I put "were removed."

They still serve no function on a properly installed wheel. 

Unless these failures occurred on the first couple of pedal strokes, I can't see someone riding too far with a loose skewer. 

I guess it could happen but it would have to be a case of 'no sense, no feeling.'


----------



## 11spd

Great discussion. I believe it is important for everybody interested in a new VIAS to keep tabs on this enlightening conversation for their safety. Truly inspiring if not breathtaking in terms of knowledge imparted. A hearty thank you for someone very interested. When I rode a new VIAS I thank my lucky stars the wheel didn't going flying off. Not only for me and my safety and imminent crash, but if one of the Roval wheels flies off and lands in say a wood chipper, I would be out over 1 large more. So thanks again guys. Anybody have a suggestion how to keep the skewer tight? Maybe safety wire?...or perhaps a C-clamp?


----------



## 1Butcher

Time to put down the pipe


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Time to put down the pipe


To me, and only my opinion, adding a pipe to the dropout to prevent a wheel flying off and landing into a chipper is directionally incorrect and antithetical to what the Venge represents in terms of weight and aero profile. A pipe would add needless weight and cross section creating turbulence....an in artful kluge if you will. Supergluing the axle the drop out for example would thwart tire changes. Because of all the great theories contributed to this thread, maybe we should perform a poll and send it to Specialized? Maybe perform a value analysis of options we expect as customers to ensure our safety?


----------



## packetloss

1Butcher said:


> It's against the rules to get rid of the lawyer tabs per the new UCI rules, so only outlaws would remove the tabs.
> 
> Of course we are all speculating, but if the rear wheel was attached properly it would not come out, so it's a good conclusion to assume that the wheel is not attached securely.
> 
> I really do not believe the type of brakes it has, has little to do with the issue. It's the catastrophe that is the result of human error that makes the headlines.


So what you are saying is only VIAS owners make these errors (5 of the 1000)? Not one person out of (10,000+) tarmacs has made this error?

If this were merely a human error issue we would see this with other bikes.


----------



## packetloss

MMsRepBike said:


> The brakes are parallel to the dropout slot.
> 
> There's nothing else they can do really, it's a bad design.
> 
> There's a reason why nobody else has ever placed a rear brake there before.
> It sure isn't because Specialized is cleaver or smart or innovative...


What they could do is offer to replace it with the disc brake version. 


Not my first choice, but their fix doesn't instill me with confidence. Considering the brakes are horrible to begin with and I feel a lot safer riding my Tarmac I just might take them up on that rather than let the VIAS continue to collect dust.


----------



## 11spd

packetloss said:


> So what you are saying is only VIAS owners make these errors (5 of the 1000)? Not one person out of (10,000+) tarmacs has made this error?
> 
> If this were merely a human error issue we would see this with other bikes.


There is an undeniable psychological component to why Spesh added safety tabs to the Venge and not to the Tarmac. You touched upon it. Tarmac owners when psychologically profiled do show better judgement. This is predicated on type of bike chosen. Sensible people generally wont buy a VIAS because there are too many tradeoffs relative to the cost of the bike. So to cover their liability, Spesh added tabs to the VIAS even though for many it is really belt and suspenders redundancy. Spesh also believes adding the tabs adds a measure of exclusivity to the VIAS not to mention a conversation piece. Likely 50% of Venge owners will buy the VIAS just for the tabs. Plus, many believe they are an aerodynamic improvement.
Hope that helps.


----------



## 1Butcher

What I'm saying is that there is only a recall because when the customer elects to remove their rear wheel AND does not properly secure it, the rear wheels may come loose AND break the frame.

How about this scenario, Do you really believe that out of the 10,000+ Tarmacs sold [and every bike made in the world], the customer never left the rear wheel loose? Highly unlikely. The odds may be the same. The difference here seems to be the end result, one breaks frames, the other gets the owner gets embarrassed. 

Years ago, Audi had a sudden acceleration issue. For some reason, it was Audi that seemed to be the one in the news. In reality, many manufacturers had the same issue and it all boiled down to the customers inability to determine where to put the foot when they wanted to stop. Audi [and others] developed a way that would prevent the customer from doing stupid things.

Why was it Audi that got all the publicity? Dumb luck and the most physical damage, I suppose. Just like the Venge. I'm not saying it's a bad idea for the lawyer tabs, but that just prevents the damage caused by the customers stupid actions in the first place. 

I do not think Specialized did anything wrong. I certainly would not fault the engineer that did not make a frame strong enough in the event the rear wheel came loose.


----------



## 1Butcher

Did anyone hear that the Venge was the bike Peter won the World Championship race. Peter needs to get a bit more sense in what bike he chooses.

So much for a crappy bike.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Did anyone hear that the Venge was the bike Peter won the World Championship race. Peter needs to get a bit more sense in what bike he chooses.
> 
> So much for a crappy bike.


Peter won the World Championship on a Tarmac.


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> What I'm saying is that there is only a recall because when the customer elects to remove their rear wheel AND does not properly secure it, the rear wheels may come loose AND break the frame.
> 
> How about this scenario, Do you really believe that out of the 10,000+ Tarmacs sold [and every bike made in the world], the customer never left the rear wheel loose? Highly unlikely. The odds may be the same. The difference here seems to be the end result, one breaks frames, the other gets the owner gets embarrassed.
> 
> Years ago, Audi had a sudden acceleration issue. For some reason, it was Audi that seemed to be the one in the news. In reality, many manufacturers had the same issue and it all boiled down to the customers inability to determine where to put the foot when they wanted to stop. Audi [and others] developed a way that would prevent the customer from doing stupid things.
> 
> Why was it Audi that got all the publicity? Dumb luck and the most physical damage, I suppose. Just like the Venge. I'm not saying it's a bad idea for the lawyer tabs, but that just prevents the damage caused by the customers stupid actions in the first place.
> 
> I do not think Specialized did anything wrong. I certainly would not fault the engineer that did not make a frame strong enough in the event the rear wheel came loose.


Some keen insiders know that the Venge VIAS is the reincarnation of the Audi 5000:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otyax6onMWw


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## Toto76

That was the previous world championship he won on a Tarmac. The current worlds the VIAS was 1st and 3rd, so if it is such a poor choice of bike why was it chosen.


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## goodboyr

11spd said:


> Some keen insiders know that the Venge VIAS is the reincarnation of the Audi 5000:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otyax6onMWw


Welcome back!

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Migen21

The World Championships on Qatar were nearly completely flat, and ridden in hot, dry weather. Other than a little feathering into a turn, I doubt anyone was using their brakes at all in these WC's. Perhaps that is why they chose the Vias over the Tarmac?


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## Toto76

Though if you go off the opinion of some of the experts in this forum, the risk of their wheel falling out, especially during the sprint when I am sure that put out more power than 99.9% of us on here. Why would they use the VIAS over the tarmac if the risks of failure are so high (according to our panel of forum experts) and the importance of this race to these guys?


----------



## 1Butcher

Come on 11sp, a keen rider knows the Venge issue not not sudden acceleration, but sudden deceleration.


----------



## dns76

1Butcher said:


> Come on 11sp, a keen rider knows the Venge issue not not sudden acceleration, but sudden deceleration.


it happened to me in acceleration, the rear wheel has a considerable lateral bending and touching the brake pad. at that time have simultaneously an acceleration and a deceleration


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Come on 11sp, a keen rider knows the Venge issue not not sudden acceleration, but sudden deceleration.


And hence the insidious plot to put such weak brakes on the VIAS and at the same time why Sagan is comfortable popping wheelies on the bike.  Quite sure the reason why the original Venge VIAS had such poor brakes being a slave to the aero master was a rush to production. Conjecture was....the VIAS frame was originally designed for disk brakes and they pulled the plug to get the languishing new model to market and had to scramble to incorporate integrated caliper brakes. The rear wheel retention issue will likely be solved with a thru axle in the future living happily with disk brakes. The rest is history.


----------



## goodboyr

It would be nice if there was an official explanation from spesh instead of all of this conjecture. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## packetloss

dns76 said:


> it happened to me in acceleration, the rear wheel has a considerable lateral bending and touching the brake pad. at that time have simultaneously an acceleration and a deceleration


Were your skewers loose or not tightened properly or did this happen despite properly fastened skewers?


----------



## dcorn

Seems to me, based on the solution of adding lawyer tabs in the back, that the problem stems from the brakes but is caused by a loose skewer. 

The new brake location does probably produce a lot of force pushing the wheel hub in the direction of the dropout opening, similar to early disc brakes and front forks (or so I've heard). But if the skewer is properly secured, no amount of braking force is going to eject the rear wheel. It doesn't happen to most people because they know how to tighten a skewer. So the lawyer tabs prevent those few people that left the skewer loose from losing a wheel at speed. All the failures must be happening at speed if the braking force is high enough to punt the wheel out of the bike. 

It doesn't happen on the Tarmac or any other bike because the brake is in a different location, so if you left the skewer loose on the Tarmac, the same type of force is applied but in a slightly different direction that doesn't eject the wheel. 


I don't see how the wheel could come out in any situation other than braking. Your weight on the frame would keep the wheel in and you'd notice a loose skewer right away.


----------



## Jackhammer

goodboyr said:


> It would be nice if there was an official explanation from spesh instead of all of this conjecture.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


the only "explanations" they ever seem to give are lawsuits.


----------



## dns76

packetloss said:


> Were your skewers loose or not tightened properly or did this happen despite properly fastened skewers?



skewer just checked and tight because the rear wheel, when doing acceleration, touch on the brake pads and I thought depended on it.


----------



## Toto76

Borrowed from another site, but I think it is safe to say that the brakes push the wheel into the drop out and not the other way around.


----------



## 11spd

dns76 said:


> skewer just checked and tight because the rear wheel, when doing acceleration, touch on the brake pads and I thought depended on it.


There are so many variables involved here. For one thing, we have no idea how strong a cyclist you are. Can you generate 1500 watts out of the saddle? A couple of guys I ride with can. Do you weigh over 200 lbs? What kind of wheelset? What is the spoke count? What spoke tension do you run? How tight do you have your brake pads to the wheel? Is your brake centered? Is your wheel true?

I think dcorn has written the best summary on why the Venge VIAS has safety tabs when other Spesh bikes don't in the rear. Conseqence of a loose skewer is likely greater with braking forces on the rear wheel.

But we don't have enough data...solid data to state with certainty what is going on...but with what we know dcorn is probably right. Specialized knows. But they ain't talking nor ever will. The public finds this stuff out eventually when enough failures occur in the field.

Lastly, your issue dns76 maybe completely unrelated to the subject at hand. What you describe could be any road bike with brakes adjusted too tight with a strong rider and wheelset not strong enough to withstand out of the saddle pedal forces to not flex appreciably.


----------



## 11spd

Toto76 said:


> Borrowed from another site, but I think it is safe to say that the brakes push the wheel into the drop out and not the other way around.


To me, it isn't clear...or rather inclusive. A simple test could be concocted however to determine this by loosening the skewer...maybe on a trainer and lower speed.

Another 'theory' is....added safety tabs to the new VIAS may 'only' be an added measure of liability insurance and a new precedent for Specialized and completely unrelated to braking forces. Future new Spesh bikes...may all have safety tabs front and rear...perhaps even independent of disk or caliper brake versions.

Only way to settle it would be a controlled experiment comparing a VIAS to a Tarmac with a loose skewer.


----------



## dns76

11spd said:


> There are so many variables involved here. For one thing, we have no idea how strong a cyclist you are. Can you generate 1500 watts out of the saddle? A couple of guys I ride with can. Do you weigh over 200 lbs? What kind of wheelset? What is the spoke count? What spoke tension do you run? How tight do you have your brake pads to the wheel? Is your brake centered? Is your wheel true?
> 
> I think dcorn has written the best summary on why the Venge VIAS has safety tabs when other Spesh bikes don't in the rear. Conseqence of a loose skewer is likely greater with braking forces on the rear wheel.
> 
> But we don't have enough data...solid data to state with certainty what is going on...but with what we know dcorn is probably right. Specialized knows. But they ain't talking nor ever will. The public finds this stuff out eventually when enough failures occur in the field.
> 
> Lastly, your issue dns76 maybe completely unrelated to the subject at hand. What you describe could be any road bike with brakes adjusted too tight with a strong rider and wheelset not strong enough to withstand out of the saddle pedal forces to not flex appreciably.


I generate 1500 for 5 second (but when happened just 1000 watt reported by powermeter )
Weight 150lbs.
Wheels clx60.
Skewer roval


----------



## 11spd

dns76 said:


> I generate 1500 for 5 second (but when happened just 1000 watt reported by powermeter )
> Weight 150lbs.
> Wheels clx60.
> Skewer roval


Check wheel true and have 2mm brake pad clearance on each side min.
If the skewer is tight, that frame isn't flexing...your hub preload may even set too loose....too much axial lash causing the wheel to shift laterally into the brake pad...or a partial contributor. Its your rear wheel and/or hub...not the frame.


----------



## dns76

11spd said:


> Check wheel true and have 2mm brake pad clearance on each side min.
> If the skewer is tight, that frame isn't flexing...your hub preload may even set too loose....too much axial lash causing the wheel to shift laterally into the brake pad...or a partial contributor. Its your rear wheel and/or hub...not the frame.


no problem with the same wheel and skewer on tarmac


----------



## 11spd

dns76 said:


> no problem with the same wheel and skewer on tarmac


A worthwhile data point for sure but hasn't nothing to do with your brake set up on your Venge VIAS and probably the vast majority of owners are clueless how to set up the VIAS brakes properly, i.e. centering the pads side to side, and alignment of the pads to the wheel brake surface in two planes. All wheels flex under 1500 watts even less. So brake pad clearance to the wheel is critical and in particular for stronger riders who tend to flex wheels more when angling the bike out of the saddle where side forces on the wheel are magnified...sine of the angle is a direct lateral force on the wheels. I rode a VIAS with Roval 40mm wheels and couldn't discern any brake rub out of the saddle but I can't generate 1500 watts in a sprint. Bike set up has to suit a rider. In general very strong riders with low spoke count wheels may have to set their brake pads a bit farther from the braking surface.


----------



## packetloss

11spd said:


> To me, it isn't clear...or rather inclusive. A simple test could be concocted however to determine this by loosening the skewer...maybe on a trainer and lower speed.
> 
> Another 'theory' is....added safety tabs to the new VIAS may 'only' be an added measure of liability insurance and a new precedent for Specialized and completely unrelated to braking forces. Future new Spesh bikes...may all have safety tabs front and rear...perhaps even independent of disk or caliper brake versions.
> 
> Only way to settle it would be a controlled experiment comparing a VIAS to a Tarmac with a loose skewer.


I really think the whole lose skewer thing is a red herring. While anything is possible, this doesn't seem to be an issue with the Tarmac and I'm willing to give VIAS owners like myself the benefit of the doubt that we know how to properly tighten a skewer and always check them before going on a ride.


The lawyer lips solution is not a proper solution. All it does is provide an extra layer of protection when the issue comes up. This is just improper testing and a bad design by Specialized.


----------



## 11spd

packetloss said:


> I really think the whole lose skewer thing is a red herring. While anything is possible, this doesn't seem to be an issue with the Tarmac and I'm willing to give VIAS owners like myself the benefit of the doubt that we know how to properly tighten a skewer and always check them before going on a ride.
> 
> 
> The lawyer lips solution is not a proper solution. All it does is provide an extra layer of protection when the issue comes up. This is just improper testing and a bad design by Specialized.


Don't agree. Reality is none of us know if its a red herring or not. We know we have seen the failure mode on the web. We haven't seen it on the Tarmac. The Tarmac doesn't have safety tabs. The new VIAS does. So people are making the connection which may or may not be true. You give the public way too much credit. People can be stupid about tightening skewers...either too tight or too loose and every gradation in between. Its 'possible' the load path due to braking on the new VIAS is more catastrophic with a loose skewer. Its possible it isn't. We have too few details to make this judgement.
The failure we have seen could be due to many things we know nothing about. We don't know the history of the frame and if he has run it into the top of his garage while attached to his car. We don't know if the guy routinely rides over curbs and he weighs 300 lbs exceeding the weight limit of the bike. It may even be a manufacturing defect....carbon was improperly laid up during frame manufacture. It maybe an interaction of all the above exposing a design that could be stronger. Designs from big companies before they reach the public are exhaustively vetted not only by computer modeling but laboratory testing and prototype riding. Worse case in the field bordering on abuse exposes the margin of any design. We can only conjecture based upon much too little data. Specialized would never admit the root cause. Typical failures are an interaction of many variables and rarely due to a single condition.


----------



## goodboyr

It is the only bike with rear lawyer tabs........that's the strange part. Reality is that instead of a frame redesign to address the unique weakness of this bike spesh did the cheap thing. Meanwhile in other news, spesh prices on the rise......go figure. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> It is the only bike with rear lawyer tabs........that's the strange part. Reality is that instead of a frame redesign to address the unique weakness of this bike spesh did the cheap thing. Meanwhile in other news, spesh prices on the rise......go figure.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Curious why you believe the VIAS has a unique weakness? What do you base your judgement on? A single failure on the internet? Have you seen others and if so how many? I wonder how a weak bike as you put it won this year's world's?

I would like to better understand your condemnation of the VIAS as being a weak design so please share all the data you have to form your judgement.


----------



## goodboyr

It's the only one with rear tabs. That's all. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> It's the only one with rear tabs. That's all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Means nothing but a safer bike if 'any' bike is ridden with a loose skewer. Same reason safety tabs exist on front wheels.


----------



## goodboyr

I'm sure all bikes will have rear tabs, then ( sarcasm...)

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## packetloss

11spd said:


> Means nothing but a safer bike if 'any' bike is ridden with a loose skewer. Same reason safety tabs exist on front wheels.


You keep saying if you ride with a lose skewer. At least one of the 6 people responded here saying his skewer was tight and checked just prior to the ride. Are you also implying the VIAS is the only bike to ever be ridden with a lose skewer?



I don't think it's a safer bike. Since there is an issue with the rear wheel coming lose, I want that aspect fixed, not something that *might* prevent a catastrophic failure if it does. Lawyer lips might help, but it jus might not be enough to keep the wheel on under enough force. Bottom line is this is a kludge not a fix.


----------



## Jackhammer

11spd said:


> To me, it isn't clear...or rather inclusive. *A simple test could be concocted however* to determine this by loosening the skewer...maybe on a trainer and lower speed.
> 
> Another 'theory' is....added safety tabs to the new VIAS may 'only' be an added measure of liability insurance and a new precedent for Specialized and completely unrelated to braking forces. Future new Spesh bikes...may all have safety tabs front and rear...perhaps even independent of disk or caliper brake versions.
> 
> Only way to settle it would be a controlled experiment comparing a VIAS to a Tarmac with a loose skewer.


A simple test....




11spd said:


> Don't agree. Reality is none of us know if its a red herring or not. We know we have seen the failure mode on the web. We haven't seen it on the Tarmac. The Tarmac doesn't have safety tabs. The new VIAS does. So people are making the connection which may or may not be true. You give the public way too much credit. People can be stupid about tightening skewers...either too tight or too loose and every gradation in between. Its 'possible' the load path due to braking on the new VIAS is more catastrophic with a loose skewer. Its possible it isn't. We have too few details to make this judgement.
> The failure we have seen could be due to many things we know nothing about. We don't know the history of the frame and if he has run it into the top of his garage while attached to his car. We don't know if the guy routinely rides over curbs and he weighs 300 lbs exceeding the weight limit of the bike. It may even be a manufacturing defect....carbon was improperly laid up during frame manufacture. It maybe an interaction of all the above exposing a design that could be stronger. *Designs from big companies before they reach the public are exhaustively vetted not only by computer modeling but laboratory testing and prototype riding. Worse case in the field bordering on abuse exposes the margin of any design.* We can only conjecture based upon much too little data. Specialized would never admit the root cause. Typical failures are an interaction of many variables and rarely due to a single condition.


They didn't perform.

They won't inform their customers what their $6K is getting them in a frame.

Kludge indeed!


----------



## 11spd

packetloss said:


> You keep saying if you ride with a lose skewer. At least one of the 6 people responded here saying his skewer was tight and checked just prior to the ride. Are you also implying the VIAS is the only bike to ever be ridden with a lose skewer?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's a safer bike. Since there is an issue with the rear wheel coming lose, I want that aspect fixed, not something that *might* prevent a catastrophic failure if it does. Lawyer lips might help, but it jus might not be enough to keep the wheel on under enough force. Bottom line is this is a kludge not a fix.


I must be missing something packetloss. Please edify me. Please produce all the data that suggests there is an issue with the wheel coming loose packetloss. All of it.
Have you contacted Specialized? Do you have this problem? Did Sagan or Cavendish have to stop during the world championship race to tighten their rear skewer? I have ridden a VIAS. The bike I was on...the rear skewer didn't come loose. One guy rides one in my weekly club ride. His skewers don't come loose.
So please produce all the data that shows there is a problem with the design. If you produce multiple failures, then you may have a case.


----------



## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> I'm sure all bikes will have rear tabs, then ( sarcasm...)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Possible. The VIAS is a new frameset for Specialized. Possible they are morphing their paradigm...perhaps directed by their legal department and all future Spesh road bikes will have them. But that even misses the point. Let's say the VIAS benefits more from having them because of force path due to braking or accelerating whereby riding with a loose skewer is more catastrophic and safety tabs keep the wheel in place to prevent a catastrophic failure. I see no problem with this design solution.


----------



## 11spd

Jackhammer said:


> A simple test....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't perform.
> 
> They won't inform their customers what their $6K is getting them in a frame.
> 
> Kludge indeed!


What didn't perform? The bike won the world championship. Cavendish has won countless tour stages on his. Produce your data. Are you making your ridiculous indictments about the VIAS based upon a single picture posted on the internet? If so produce the race history of the frame, the rider and contact information, whether there was any previous accidents to the frameset common in racing or basic abuse.


----------



## packetloss

11spd said:


> I must be missing something packetloss. Please edify me. Please produce all the data that suggests there is an issue with the wheel coming loose packetloss. All of it.
> Have you contacted Specialized? Do you have this problem? Did Sagan or Cavendish have to stop during the world championship race to tighten their rear skewer? I have ridden a VIAS. The bike I was on...the rear skewer didn't come loose. One guy rides one in my weekly club ride. His skewers don't come loose.
> So please produce all the data that shows there is a problem with the design. If you produce multiple failures, then you may have a case.


Have you bothered to read all the details? Since you have been posting on this subject I just assumed you had. Here are a few links including the official statement from Specialized that should help edify you.

Specialized recalls Venge ViAS rim-brake bikes - BikeRadar USA

Specialized Recalls Venge ViAS Rim-Brake Bikes | Bicycling

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/safety-notices

Dear Rider,
Thank you for being a Specialized customer. We have been working on a safety improvement that needs to be made to your current Venge ViAS. Specialized has received isolated reports from the field of the rear wheel coming out of the rear dropouts, which can cause fractures in the rear triangle. Please read Specialized’s notice below.
Your safety is of the upmost importance to Specialized and your retailer partner At this time please stop riding your Venge ViAS Rim. We ask that you bring your bike to our shop so we can install the replacement rear derailleur hanger. This will be of no cost to you.
Please email [email protected] or call directly at (800)722-4423 if you have any questions. We appreciate your cooperation with this update.


----------



## Jackhammer

packetloss said:


> Have you bothered to read all the details? Since you have been posting on this subject I just assumed you had. Here are a few links including the official statement from Specialized that should help edify you.
> 
> Specialized recalls Venge ViAS rim-brake bikes - BikeRadar USA
> 
> Specialized Recalls Venge ViAS Rim-Brake Bikes | Bicycling
> 
> https://www.specialized.com/us/en/safety-notices
> 
> Dear Rider,
> Thank you for being a Specialized customer. We have been working on a safety improvement that needs to be made to your current Venge ViAS. Specialized has received isolated reports from the field of the rear wheel coming out of the rear dropouts, which can cause fractures in the rear triangle. Please read Specialized’s notice below.
> Your safety is of the upmost importance to Specialized and your retailer partner At this time please stop riding your Venge ViAS Rim. We ask that you bring your bike to our shop so we can install the replacement rear derailleur hanger. This will be of no cost to you.
> Please email [email protected] or call directly at (800)722-4423 if you have any questions. We appreciate your cooperation with this update.


Definitions of words befuddle him. 

"unique" "safety improvement" "needs" "stop"


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## 11spd

packetloss said:


> Have you bothered to read all the details? Since you have been posting on this subject I just assumed you had. Here are a few links including the official statement from Specialized that should help edify you.
> 
> Specialized recalls Venge ViAS rim-brake bikes - BikeRadar USA
> 
> Specialized Recalls Venge ViAS Rim-Brake Bikes | Bicycling
> 
> https://www.specialized.com/us/en/safety-notices
> 
> Dear Rider,
> Thank you for being a Specialized customer. We have been working on a safety improvement that needs to be made to your current Venge ViAS. Specialized has received isolated reports from the field of the rear wheel coming out of the rear dropouts, which can cause fractures in the rear triangle. Please read Specialized’s notice below.
> Your safety is of the upmost importance to Specialized and your retailer partner At this time please stop riding your Venge ViAS Rim. We ask that you bring your bike to our shop so we can install the replacement rear derailleur hanger. This will be of no cost to you.
> Please email [email protected] or call directly at (800)722-4423 if you have any questions. We appreciate your cooperation with this update.


No, I hadn't seen that info. Thanks a lot. I was wondering where all the outrage was coming from. Will have a look.
Thanks again.

PS: any pics of the revised rear derailleur hanger? Curious how changing the rear hanger promotes greater rear wheel retention?


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## 1Butcher

packetloss said:


> At least one of the 6 people responded here saying his skewer was tight and checked just prior to the ride.


With the similar Audi issue, all the owners said they stepped on the brake as hard as they could and it just kept going. Of course everyone one of the riders would swear they were tight. Why would they not say that. IF they were all properly tighten, they would not come out. It's that simple. The problem lies to what happens when you leave them loose AND they come out. That's where the lawyer tabs come into play.

If I was the manufacturer, I would do the same, there is no way I would redesign a new frame and give it to a customer that left their skewer loose. Would Audi redesign the car and give you a new one? Heck NO.

If you think that the Venge is the only one with rear tabs, just wait a few years. Again, like Audi, all shifters can only be put into R/D by stepping on the brake pedal. I see little difference. You would be crazy not to put them on now. Can you imagine the lawyer in court, Specialized install tabs, why doesn't your company?


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## 1Butcher

11spd said:


> Same reason safety tabs exist on front wheels.


It's because it's the law now for the reason that the US riders do not seem to know how to tighten the skewer. Sounds similar here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_end


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## 1Butcher

11spd said:


> Did Sagan or Cavendish have to stop during the world championship race to tighten their rear skewer?


Common 11sd, That would never have happened, they would need a new bike but if timed it correctly, maybe Sagan could of done a front wheelie crossing the line.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> With the similar Audi issue, all the owners said they stepped on the brake as hard as they could and it just kept going. Of course everyone one of the riders would swear they were tight. Why would they not say that. IF they were all properly tighten, they would not come out. It's that simple. The problem lies to what happens when you leave them loose AND they come out. That's where the lawyer tabs come into play.
> 
> If I was the manufacturer, I would do the same, there is no way I would redesign a new frame and give it to a customer that left their skewer loose. Would Audi redesign the car and give you a new one? Heck NO.
> 
> If you think that the Venge is the only one with rear tabs, just wait a few years. Again, like Audi, all shifters can only be put into R/D by stepping on the brake pedal. I see little difference. You would be crazy not to put them on now. Can you imagine the lawyer in court, Specialized install tabs, why doesn't your company?


Yes...these liability issues due take on life of their own and sometimes design standards change as you reference Audi. And you may be old enough to remember the Audi debacle....the 5000 being loved sports sedan until this issue almost bankrupted the company. It was never fully solved if the so called sudden acceleration was due to 'pedal error'...Audi 5000 has a slightly different pedal orientation for their auto 5000's versus....the throttle body would increase engine speed without explanation. Never fully settled. Audi may even know what the real problem was. Toyota as you know had a similar sudden acceleration issue which was also enigmatic....floor mat catching on the gas pedal versus drive by wire throttle sending a false signal to open the throttle body. That one was never proved either...compelling arguments both ways.

More will come out about this issue with the VIAS. Apparently it is not related to disk brake bikes. I just don't see if a skewer is properly tightened, how it can come loose. But as you say, they maybe designing for a loose skewer based upon how the brakes on this particular frame pull on the wheel.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Common 11sd, That would never have happened, they would need a new bike but if timed it correctly, maybe Sagan could of done a front wheelie crossing the line.


I was kidding and suggesting if a blatant design flaw existed that the strongest riders in the world would expose it. Joking.


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## 1Butcher

11spd said:


> The bike [Venge] won the world championship.





11spd said:


> Peter won the World Championship on a Tarmac.


Just a suggestion, maybe you could have a different log-ons for all the personalities you have. These two are contradicting themselves.


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## goodboyr

I would say we are all wondering about this same issue. Is this unique to the visa? If yes, then that points to a root cause related to frame design that makes the vias particularly susceptible to something as innocuous as a loose skewer. And once again, if that's the case, shame on spesh for not dealing with the root cause. I suppose one way is to stop production of rim brake vias and only have the disc version. 

If no, then soon all bikes will have rear tabs.......

My bet is on a bad design. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## 1Butcher

11spd said:


> I was kidding.


And so am I. But it would be a great photo finish. Definitely would make the world headlines. Could you imagine, both Cav and Sagan breaking in harmony across the line?


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## packetloss

11spd said:


> No, I hadn't seen that info. Thanks a lot. I was wondering where all the outrage was coming from. Will have a look.
> Thanks again.
> 
> PS: any pics of the revised rear derailleur hanger? Curious how changing the rear hanger promotes greater rear wheel retention?


According to my bike shop it is identical to the old one except for the addition of the lawyer lips.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> And so am I. But it would be a great photo finish. Definitely would make the world headlines. Could you imagine, both Cav and Sagan breaking in harmony across the line?


Actually I am a big fan of Sagan. Would be less plussed if Cav's VIAS failed...kidding.
Again...perplexing to me how any skewer can come loose while riding a bike because there is little axial force on the skewer. Which suggests that the caliper brake VIAS is sensitive to...if the skewer is loose enough that the axle can slip out of the drop out due to riding forces aka braking or acceleration. Since it doesn't affect the disk brake version..again alledged, then its braking forces of how the rear brake is positioned on the frame that likely pulls the wheel out more than a more traditional race frame. If the tabs keep a semi loose skewer in place, then I suppose its OK.

I believe a matter of time the caliper brake version of the VIAS is discontinued anyway...which has been challenged since the beginning with its sub par brake performance...better now with brake part changes.


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## 1Butcher

I define loose as not tight enough, not where the skewer opened during the ride. 

We're all different and until they have a torque spec on skewers, that can be measured, this will happen.


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## rcb78

My $0.02, something is not right with the design. Working in a shop will show you that most people don't tighten their QRs enough. Plenty of rubbing brakes, but no one I've personally dealt with has lost a wheel yet.


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## dns76

*new derailleur hanger*

View attachment 316627


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## 11spd

Thanks for posting the pic of the revised derailleur hanger. I blew up the pic and sharpened the resolution a bit for a better look. 
Adding the tabs to the drive side clearly help retain the axle on the drive side in the event of a loose skewer without a doubt. Almost surprising this would be needed and of course Spesh missed it as well with their testing and release. Unless the drop out slot shape or angle is dramatically different which it doesn't appear to be and since there apparently isn't an issue with the Tarmac, only plausible explanation is the revised aero caliper brake and position stresses the axle more vertically pulling the wheel out unless the skewer is fully tightened. Far from intuitive and must be a pretty subtle issue...when rear skewer is less than fully tightened for them to miss this with all the development Spesh put into their flagship VIAS.


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## 1Butcher

Has anyone got pictures of a broken frame and the drop outs? It would be curious to see if there are deep gouges where the skewer was holding on to dear life or what.


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## goodboyr

11spd said:


> Thanks for posting the pic of the revised derailleur hanger. I blew up the pic and sharpened the resolution a bit for a better look.
> Adding the tabs to the drive side clearly help retain the axle on the drive side in the event of a loose skewer without a doubt. Almost surprising this would be needed and of course Spesh missed it as well with their testing and release. Unless the drop out slot shape or angle is dramatically different which it doesn't appear to be and since there apparently isn't an issue with the Tarmac, only plausible explanation is the revised aero caliper brake and position stresses the axle more vertically pulling the wheel out unless the skewer is fully tightened. Far from intuitive and must be a pretty subtle issue...when rear skewer is less than fully tightened for them to miss this with all the development Spesh put into their flagship VIAS.


Those aren't lawyer tabs.....those are more like handcuffs!

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> Those aren't lawyer tabs.....those are more like handcuffs!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Technically, they are small tits which sometimes go with handcuffs.


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## goodboyr

11spd said:


> Technically, they are small tits which sometimes go with handcuffs.


The mind boggles.  

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## 1Butcher

A tight skewer between 2 tits should be reassuring.


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## goodboyr

This thread is a race to the bottom.......

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## Jackhammer

goodboyr said:


> This thread is a race to the bottom.......
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk



It should be. That solution is a disgrace. Jamming the axle into the "restraints" might still fracture the tape holding the cosmetic seat stays to the seat tube. 

All for a frame whose buyers will be 
dumping in 2 or 3 years for the next big advancement.


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## goodboyr

My prediction is that half the riders will file off the tabs and the other half will accidentally break them off trying to get the wheel on.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## dns76

*New rd hanger vs old*

https://www.recalls.govt.nz/recall/my16-specialized-venge-vias-frames


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> A tight skewer between 2 tits should be reassuring.


Yes, most satisfying and should be part of a daily ritual for best riding performance.


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## 11spd

Jackhammer said:


> It should be. That solution is a disgrace. Jamming the axle into the "restraints" might still fracture the tape holding the cosmetic seat stays to the seat tube.
> 
> All for a frame whose buyers will be
> dumping in 2 or 3 years for the next big advancement.


Not jamming anything. Belt and suspenders is all for people too dumb to tighten their skewer properly. Dumb...or being kinder....careless people have to be protected as they are by most designs out there...for example a wrench has to be designed with the impact resistance of a hammer because wrenches are used as hammers everyday. This isn't a big deal. Sure it violates people's sense of design 'purity' but Spesh missed this in development because it wasn't anticipated because when they tested all the VIAS prototype bikes in mule form, they likely had the skewers tight as 98% of the riding public will. To stay in business today because of liability, you have to design for the 2%...so this is more of a philosophical argument. Those small tits..I prefer big tits actually...but those small tits don't add much weight and would only be a minor annoyance to install the rear wheel.

If you want grievous, this ain't nothing. Grievous is Spesh's narrow version of PF30 they sold for years on their S-works bikes. Their top of the line race bikes had the worse BB in history, they finally abandoned. That was much worse than adding a small protection to riding with a loose skewer. Besides, the caliper version of the VIAS will likely be gone in 1-2 model years.


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## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> My prediction is that half the riders will file off the tabs and the other half will accidentally break them off trying to get the wheel on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


I don't agree on either front. First, they won't break off with any typical force of installing a rear wheel and second it would take a thousand wheel changes to start to wear them down. Maybe hardened racers would file them down but Joe six pack who tries to 'buy game' and can afford a $8K Venge who is basically clueless about bike design and has the bike shop work on it...will leave them there.


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## 1Butcher

All I can say is that I will not be surprised to see more tabs in the future. The first thing I do on any of my frames is to file them off.

If will be interesting what the peloton will be doing if only the Venge has them. Certainly it will be an issue when replacing the rear wheel with tabs compared to all the other out there. With the rule change on discs, maybe it will be a moot point.

The tabs may be a lame fix, but certainly replacing the frame would be out of the picture. They could always issued a thru bolt [instead of a skewer] and put a torque spec on it.


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## goodboyr

Maybe. But how about this unintended consequence? The wheel is installed carelessly and instead of being fully into the dropouts it doesn't get past the tabs and instead the skewer is tightened with the wheel against the tabs. Voila.....dropout is bent and shifting is screwed. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## 1Butcher

If the wheel was not installed properly [not passed the tabs] then it would clearly be a user issue and not Specialized. Not a warranty issue. 

The issue with loose skewers is there is no torque spec, so what it tight? Like one person already mentioned, most of the skewers that came in his shop are not tight enough.


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## packetloss

11spd said:


> Not jamming anything. Belt and suspenders is all for people too dumb to tighten their skewer properly. Dumb...or being kinder....careless people have to be protected as they are by most designs out there...for example a wrench has to be designed with the impact resistance of a hammer because wrenches are used as hammers everyday. This isn't a big deal. Sure it violates people's sense of design 'purity' but Spesh missed this in development because it wasn't anticipated because when they tested all the VIAS prototype bikes in mule form, they likely had the skewers tight as 98% of the riding public will. To stay in business today because of liability, you have to design for the 2%...so this is more of a philosophical argument. Those small tits..I prefer big tits actually...but those small tits don't add much weight and would only be a minor annoyance to install the rear wheel.
> 
> If you want grievous, this ain't nothing. Grievous is Spesh's narrow version of PF30 they sold for years on their S-works bikes. Their top of the line race bikes had the worse BB in history, they finally abandoned. That was much worse than adding a small protection to riding with a loose skewer. Besides, the caliper version of the VIAS will likely be gone in 1-2 model years.


You keep saying loose skewer. We already established that in at least 1 of the cases the skewer was on tight and checked just before the ride.

The lips on the skewer is a kludge for a faulty design (presumably the brake placement and force it's applying to the wheel).
Take a look at the Samsung fiasco. That shows what can happen when you improperly diagnose/handle a recall.


----------



## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> Maybe. But how about this unintended consequence? The wheel is installed carelessly and instead of being fully into the dropouts it doesn't get past the tabs and instead the skewer is tightened with the wheel against the tabs. Voila.....dropout is bent and shifting is screwed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Disagree again. Utopia doesn't exist. The small tit kluge will do more for having rear wheels properly seated than not. I will go out on a limb and say 1/4 of all road bikes right now have their rear skewers tight but the rear wheel is cocked in its dropout. These projections will promote a better seated wheel, not the opposite. They are large enough to make it abundantly clear if the threaded knob of the DS skewer isn't up and over them promoting a better seated wheel.


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## goodboyr

A person who can't do a skewer up properly is not going to notice whether the wheel is cocked or not. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## 1Butcher

packetloss said:


> I've already established that in at least 1 of the cases the skewer was on tight and checked just before the ride.


Fixed it for you.

Define tight. I believe it's impossible for a tight skewer to come loose with the forces that can be generated by a bike and it's owner. There is no measuring tool that will let the owner know what tight is.


----------



## 1Butcher

11spd said:


> These projections will promote a better seated wheel, not the opposite.


I would agree but there are no tabs on the other side of the bike. So just because one side is located properly, the other side may not.


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> I would agree but there are no tabs on the other side of the bike. So just because one side is located properly, the other side may not.


Very true and in fact, quite interesting Spesh has come with this fix alone for the issue. Of course when they come with a fix, you can bet it has been studied in detail because sensitivity to liability is always under the microscope...the boogie man to engineers and management if they bring a fix to a known problem. So apparently, restraining one side...is enough to keep the skewer in position enough not to spit out the wheel and cause a crash. Only plausible reason they would only tweak one side when it would be common sense to add tabs to both sides for better retention in the event of riding with a loose skewer.


----------



## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> A person who can't do a skewer up properly is not going to notice whether the wheel is cocked or not.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Point is....many people 'skewer up properly' to borrow your parlance and the wheel is still cocked in the dropout. Bike is still rideable. Braking pad pressure won't be eqivialent on each side. The bike won't shift as well. But the rider won't crash because the wheel will still be retained. I see it all the time and in fact is common. It is particularly common when installing a rear wheel on a bike stand if vigilance isn't applied and in haste at many bike shops it isn't...or changing a flat during a group ride and trying to hurry. That is why I always place the bike on the ground and toggle the wheel and axle to find its center before tightening the wheel. Its pretty easy to tighten a skewer to correct force with the wheel slightly cocked...common.


----------



## goodboyr

Exactly. But in this case, my hypothesis is that this will cause a bent dropout. 
In any case, this is fun speculation. Will be interesting to see the actual experience as time goes on.
And also whether this is a one off, or as others say, will propagate to other manufacturers. 
This is what happens as the outdoor season ends up here in the north country. Actual cycling gets less, talking about cycling increases.....😃

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> All I can say is that I will not be surprised to see more tabs in the future. The first thing I do on any of my frames is to file them off.
> 
> If will be interesting what the peloton will be doing if only the Venge has them. Certainly it will be an issue when replacing the rear wheel with tabs compared to all the other out there. With the rule change on discs, maybe it will be a moot point.
> 
> The tabs may be a lame fix, but certainly replacing the frame would be out of the picture. They could always issued a thru bolt [instead of a skewer] and put a torque spec on it.


If disks make the grade in pro racing over time, hopefully redesigned to be smaller and lighter and more aero and most importantly to have integrated guards to protect riders from the knife edge known as a rotor during inevitable crashes in the peloton which happen like clockwork, then I believe its going to be all thru axles in the future...as long as they can be maintenanced on the road both quickly and without any major tools.


----------



## Jackhammer

11spd said:


> Point is....many people 'skewer up properly' to borrow your parlance and the wheel is still cocked in the dropout. Bike is still rideable. Braking pad pressure won't be eqivialent on each side. The bike won't shift as well. But the rider won't crash because the wheel will still be retained. I see it all the time and in fact is common. It is particularly common when installing a rear wheel on a bike stand if vigilance isn't applied and in haste at many bike shops it isn't...or changing a flat during a group ride and trying to hurry*. That is why I always place the bike on the ground and toggle the wheel and axle to find its center before tightening the wheel.* Its pretty easy to tighten a skewer to correct force with the wheel slightly cocked...common.


Good points.


----------



## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> Exactly. But in this case, my hypothesis is that this will cause a bent dropout.
> In any case, this is fun speculation. Will be interesting to see the actual experience as time goes on.
> And also whether this is a one off, or as others say, will propagate to other manufacturers.
> This is what happens as the outdoor season ends up here in the north country. Actual cycling gets less, talking about cycling increases.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Honestly, I would be quite surprised if it propagates to any other manufacturer with any tabs in back...or any other model of Spesh bike. Reason is....how this so called fix came about. The bike was released without tabs. Spesh had to come out publically...which they only do as a last resort...they always try to campaign quietly or not at all. They only did this for this specific bike which apparently has a unique characteristic for a loose skewer because of the brake position unique to this frameset. So no, don't expect this in the future for other bikes and may even go away for the disk version and of course unnecessary if they go to a thru axle which is likely with the disk version. There is a document exclusive to engineering that normally heads off these type of liability issues during product development...testing of scenarios that may occur in the public. No doubt having the wheel spit out due to a loose skewer will be added to what is referred to as the DFMEA for all bike models in the future and be tested for to prevent this occurrence as bikes continue to evolve.


----------



## packetloss

1Butcher said:


> Fixed it for you.
> 
> Define tight. I believe it's impossible for a tight skewer to come loose with the forces that can be generated by a bike and it's owner. There is no measuring tool that will let the owner know what tight is.


If you don't know if your skewer is tight you shouldn't be riding.
Personally the way I check my skewers is it should take some force to close but not gorilla force. 
That's really a lot easier to guage than you think. If you can't close it with one hand then thats too much force. If you can open the skewer without feeling decent 
resistance then it's too little.


I like specialized as much as the next guy (I have had multiple Tarmacs and a VIAS), but I don't believe they would issue a recall if it was simply due to people not knowing how to tighten a skewer.


Sorry but this just doesn't seem to have come up before. If it was simply user error and no published standars for torque on skewers this would be a global problem.


----------



## 11spd

packetloss said:


> If you don't know if your skewer is tight you shouldn't be riding.
> Personally the way I check my skewers is it should take some force to close but not gorilla force.
> That's really a lot easier to guage than you think. If you can't close it with one hand then thats too much force. If you can open the skewer without feeling decent
> resistance then it's too little.
> 
> 
> I like specialized as much as the next guy (I have had multiple Tarmacs and a VIAS), but I don't believe they would issue a recall if it was simply due to people not knowing how to tighten a skewer.
> 
> 
> Sorry but this just doesn't seem to have come up before. If it was simply user error and no published standars for torque on skewers this would be a global problem.


Not sure what your point is but how Specialized designs a bike and what you believe to be more or less black and white about owners knowing how to tigten their skewer is not the same. Specialized has to design for worse case skewer tightness. Want proof? The thousands of lawyer tabs on the front wheels of bikes. Front wheels don't fall off if the skewer is tight. Guess what? They put them on there in front because of all the careless riders that leave the barn with their skewer less than rock solid like you do. Riders are not the same, not only in power and endurance but vigilance about their bike set up. Some only check their tires once a week too which is silly as well.
In the case of the VIAS, they learned a loose skewer, breaks the rear triangle and a bad crash can ensue. Apparently its due to the caliper brake position and or clearance to the rear wheel. Disk versions of the same bike don't need them...probably because the rotor within the disk caliper acts as a guide to keep the wheel on plane versus cocking. Tarmacs don't need them. Something about that geometry. Public recalls are an effort to get out in front of what they believe is a problem that can harm the reputation of their flagship bike. Reality is, many know nothing about proper bike maintenance. Bikes sometimes leave bike shops with loose skewers. Plenty of ignorance and negligence to go around. Spesh has to bake that into their business model to stay in business.


----------



## dns76

no one ask if the fault be due to the production in China?
tarmac is produced in Taiwan, venge in china ...


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## 1Butcher

As far as I know, there are no frames breaking on their own. Only from the outside influence of the rear wheel becoming detached. Where they are built does not seem to be the issue. If that junction broke while on a normal ride, yeah, that would be a huge issue for Specialized.

If I was Specialized, I would think about this junction and make it a bit more robust in the newer frames.


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> If I was Specialized, I would think about this junction and make it a bit more robust in the newer frames.


Don't think that is really needed. OMO. Reason is, when the wheel separates and cocks in the frame, the stress on the connection that breaks is enormous. It isn't the fault of the interface. Its the fault that the wheel walks out of the frame if the skewer is loose...and of course that is arguable as well...designing for a loose skewer. That junction is designed to a target flex level for overall frame stiffness. Don't need to beef it up if they keep the wheel on the bike...just like the disk bike which isn't a problem. Again, we are speculating here but would be my response to adding beef which would affect the dynamics of the frameset.
Specialized is taking the easiest, most cost effective path for them to resolve the issue which I believe most would agree is a non issue if the rear skewer is always properly tightened.


----------



## 1Butcher

Of course Specialized is doing the cost effective way, that's what all companies do. Looking at the break, it does look cheesy. Again, it does it's job when things are not falling apart at the rear, but there would be no bad reason to look at the joint and wonder if it could be done better.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Of course Specialized is doing the cost effective way, that's what all companies do. Looking at the break, it does look cheesy. Again, it does it's job when things are not falling apart at the rear, but there would be no bad reason to look at the joint and wonder if it could be done better.


I stated the reasons why they didn't change the joint you think they should which are as follows:

1. add cost or subtract profit
2. possibly add weight if increasing strength
3. The way joints work in flex is...stronger joints inhibit flex which changes the kinematics of the frame which are carefully engineered for ride compliancy relative to power transfer.
4. They don't have to. There is nothing wrong with that joint. It passed durability test bogie in the laboratory over tens of thousands fatigue strokes.

So they did what they did for a reason. They identified the lowest cost, lowest weight solution whereby they didn't have to reinvent the wheel forgive the pun and disrupt the careful balance of frame flex born out of hours of development testing. They didn't have to start over and simply included a tweak that compensates for rider negligence. In other words, they didn't over react to a major change to their frame mold that isn't needed including for their disk model which apparently keeps the wheel in the frame when the skewer is loose because the rotor keeps the wheel more or less straight within the disk caliper.


----------



## 1Butcher

The day any company says they did nothing wrong and there is no reason to look at it again, ends up on a downward spiral.

There is always room for improvement. To say, it's the best there is and there is no reason to look for improvements, is nuts. If it was true, there would be no more new models. 

Everyday a company or person should look in the mirror and look for improvement. I'm not saying that Specialized did anything wrong. I'm certain the cause of this issue is related the vague definition of the term 'tight skewer'. 

I truly believe, there is little in this world that is perfect, including that joint. McLaren makes a pretty penny [or pound] on taking S-Works frames and making Specialized best, even better.


----------



## dns76

11spd said:


> I stated the reasons why they didn't change the joint you think they should which are as follows:
> 
> 1. add cost or subtract profit
> 2. possibly add weight if increasing strength
> 3. The way joints work in flex is...stronger joints inhibit flex which changes the kinematics of the frame which are carefully engineered for ride compliancy relative to power transfer.
> 4. They don't have to. There is nothing wrong with that joint. It passed durability test bogie in the laboratory over tens of thousands fatigue strokes.
> 
> So they did what they did for a reason. They identified the lowest cost, lowest weight solution whereby they didn't have to reinvent the wheel forgive the pun and disrupt the careful balance of frame flex born out of hours of development testing. They didn't have to start over and simply included a tweak that compensates for rider negligence. In other words, they didn't over react to a major change to their frame mold that isn't needed including for their disk model which apparently keeps the wheel in the frame when the skewer is loose because the rotor keeps the wheel more or less straight within the disk caliper.


it does not seem strange to you that only vias drivers are negligent?


----------



## 1Butcher

Your missing the point. We're all negligent. Most of us do not have a frame that breaks because of our negligence. Specialized is now forced to protect us from our negligence.


----------



## dns76

1Butcher said:


> Your missing the point. We're all negligent. Most of us do not have a frame that breaks because of our negligence. Specialized is now forced to protect us from our negligence.


You're right! we should all be grateful to specialized for this.
only regret that they have not done before, it only took 40 years of experience ... ;-)


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## 1Butcher

If you're happy with Specialized, you gotta love our government. They have been protecting us for years. 

Someday, just maybe, we'll accept our own mistakes and not blame them on others.


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> The day any company says they did nothing wrong and there is no reason to look at it again, ends up on a downward spiral.
> 
> There is always room for improvement. To say, it's the best there is and there is no reason to look for improvements, is nuts. If it was true, there would be no more new models.
> 
> Everyday a company or person should look in the mirror and look for improvement. I'm not saying that Specialized did anything wrong. I'm certain the cause of this issue is related the vague definition of the term 'tight skewer'.
> 
> I truly believe, there is little in this world that is perfect, including that joint. McLaren makes a pretty penny [or pound] on taking S-Works frames and making Specialized best, even better.


No idea how you made the above extrapolation from the data that is available. Incongruous is the word that comes to mind. The joint you criticize should NOT be improved and has nothing to do with what caused the failure. That is like blaming the paint that gets scratched due to a crash.


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## 1Butcher

I never criticized the joint, just the owners tightening the skewers and maybe the lack of standard of what 'tight' means.

We can probably agree that the joint was never designed to compensate for the skewer issue [and I do not believe it should of been either]. Since the issue is out there, it would not hurt for them to reassess if it's good enough. After the reassessment, the answer may be that's it's good enough or maybe it could be better. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> I never criticized the joint, just the owners tightening the skewers and maybe the lack of standard of what 'tight' means.
> 
> We can probably agree that the joint was never designed to compensate for the skewer issue [and I do not believe it should of been either]. Since the issue is out there, it would not hurt for them to reassess if it's good enough. After the reassessment, the answer may be that's it's good enough or maybe it could be better. That's all I'm saying.


OK. No doubt this issue caught Specialized by surprise and a strong guess is moving forward they will include the loose skewer test into their design development testing protocol because sadly bikes have to now be designed for negligent owners....really the same reason why lawyers tabs appeared on front forks when many who are vigilant about their bike maintenance, file them down. Believe we agree the VIAS doesn't need the projections added to the rear derailleur hanger either but Spesh doesn't want to fight the battle of public opinion that their top bike isn't safe and why they added them.


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## 1Butcher

That and the government made them do it. Just like shift locks on cars with automatics. It's nice to know the government is protecting us for our mistakes.


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## goodboyr

It would be a neat test to see how many other bike's rear triangles can break when the rear wheel leaves the bike due to poor install. I'm looking at my RCA, and those seat stays are so tiny it wouldn't take much to break them off. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## dcorn

Again, time to switch everything to thru-axle. I have it on my Crux and there is no way to screw it up. Slide wheel fully into drop outs. Slide thru-axle in and screw in until tight. The wheel can't be positioned any differently than perfect and it's pretty tough to leave a screw in axle loose. Even if you do, the wheel won't come out. 

Now Spesh just needs to come up with a 'faster' thru axle, whether it be coarse threads or less threads to reduce the number of turns needed. I'm not so sure about that one thru-axle type that is quarter-turn, still relies on tightening a skewer.


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## 1Butcher

@Goodboyr, how about you leave your skewer loose and see what happens. Have a go pro in a couple spots. Let us know how that works out.


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## goodboyr

Lol. You'll be the first to know.....
As long as you leave the lug nuts loose on your back wheels on your car and do a launch.....😀

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## 1Butcher

That sounds like a deal, I have a 91 VW Cabriolet and a 81 Rabbit pick up, neither one could stress the rear wheels [even if it was rear wheel drive].

But I could tell you a story about my accountants 76 Land Cruiser with a small block Chevy that had one of the front monster tire come off the truck. Fortunately the wheel did not bounce off the over pass. Sucks to be the last one to work on it.


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## goodboyr

So OT, but I once had a vw Beatle. Had a rear wheel replaced and they forgot the lug nuts. Drove it down the road and suddenly the car stopped and then my wheel passed me.....

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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> That sounds like a deal, I have a 91 VW Cabriolet and a 81 Rabbit pick up, neither one could stress the rear wheels [even if it was rear wheel drive].
> 
> But I could tell you a story about my accountants 76 Land Cruiser with a small block Chevy that had one of the front monster tire come off the truck. Fortunately the wheel did not bounce off the over pass. Sucks to be the last one to work on it.


S##t happens...lol.

Remember when we were little kids playing in the neighborhood? There was always that crazy kid who would do stuff and dare us? One kid one day said to me, you know what I think we should do today? I said what's that? He said, we should jump off the garage. My response? OK, but you first...lol. He jumped and didn't walk too good after that.


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## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> So OT, but I once had a vw Beatle. Had a rear wheel replaced and they forgot the lug nuts. Drove it down the road and suddenly the car stopped and then my wheel passed me.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Hard to top that but will only play because I did the German car thing from VW to Porsche to BMW. 

One rainy night just out of college after having a Corvette stolen that I heavily modified...very low miles and never saw it again, I bought a more modest VW Scirocco. Remember that car?....a Rabbit with swoppier body work. I liked that car. So one night while out partying....I drove crazy when I was young, the roads were wet and I came in too hot into a turn around...locked the brakes...pre ABS....and banged a curve...didn't quite make the turn around  It bent the front right wheel back into the right front wheel house. Those crazy germans. They designed it right. The lower control arm....a steel stamping bent and was the sacrificial component...no frame or wheel damage. Got it home, jacked it up, threw on a new lower control arm and developed a new found respect for turn arounds when driving in the rain.


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## 1Butcher

goodboyr said:


> So OT, but I once had a vw Beatle. Had a rear wheel replaced and they forgot the lug nuts. Drove it down the road and suddenly the car stopped and then my wheel passed me.....


Two things, I was NOT there [I can verify my whereabouts] and they're lug *bolts*, not nuts. I know this NOT because I was there either.

OTOH, maybe it was a German's design of a quick release that did not go so well.


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## goodboyr

ROFL. I just looked up the difference. Apparently for the 1981 VW vanagon those crafty Germans put lug bolts on the front wheels and lug nuts on studs on the rear wheels. 

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## 1Butcher

Crafty? What about the Mopar engineers that had reverse threaded lug nuts. Talk about being pissed, changing the flat tire in the rain, breaking the studs because you're turning them the wrong way. Another twist, only on one side of the car. That will keep you guessing.

Then there are the Mercedes engineers. Let's put a spare tire in the car that when you use the lug bolts on the car that they go too far in and cause damage to the parking brake mechanism and eventually a $1500 repair and of course, a tow bill to the shop.

Makes Specialized engineers look like genius's.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Crafty? What about the Mopar engineers that had reverse threaded lug nuts. Talk about being pissed, changing the flat tire in the rain, breaking the studs because you're turning them the wrong way. Another twist, only on one side of the car. That will keep you guessing.
> 
> Then there are the Mercedes engineers. Let's put a spare tire in the car that when you use the lug bolts on the car that they go too far in and cause damage to the parking brake mechanism and eventually a $1500 repair and of course, a tow bill to the shop.
> 
> Makes Specialized engineers look like genius's.


Lots of blame to go around. You want to know what is miraculous? That modern cars with their incredible complexity don't live in the shop. Law of large numbers. Of course some do. 

How about the flagship BMW 7 series? I owned and restored an earlier E32 7 series which was much less complex and was reliable....not the V12 which was a nightmare.

Here is a recounting about the reliability of a 2004 BMW 7 series from a BMW mechanic's perspective....70 computers in the car:

I first started working at a BMW dealership in March of 2004, and that was my first real experience with the 7-Series. I remember being awestruck by the car! The size, the power, the luxury and the performance really made it one of my favorite cars we sold. 

Unfortunately, though, I can tell you that I would never own one. 

My issues with the car:

- The E65/E66 chassis has 70+ control modules, working everything from the suspension to the 20-way comfort seats. Those modules are known for giving issues. When they do, a technician will start a lengthy diagnostic process and still may not have an answer. The whole system is integrated so that, if one part goes out, several others might throw a code. This makes it really hard to figure out what's wrong and fix. 

- The N62 engines have issues. They are very complex - Valvetronic and double VANOS (variable valve lift and timing), advanced engine management control, etc, - mean it performs well. But, in 2004, it was new technology and not perfected. Double VANOS units go out with frequency, and you're looking at $3k. Water pumps are cheap plastic and go out every 60k miles or so. Valley pans leak, valve issues pop up from time-to-time, injector reliability is a big issue.... I could go on. 

The issue isn't just that these things break, it's that the previous owner probably didn't want to spend the money to fix them. You could just about bet that, when a 7 was traded in, it needed $4500-$6000 worth of work to make it right. 

- Aluminum suspension needs to be freshened up every 50k-60k miles. Control arms and tie rods are aluminum and about $1500-$2000 to replace. 

- Active Roll Stabilization in Sport Package cars can be a beast. See the section above about technology. I had customers who were driving down the road, minding their own, when the car would twist itself like it was demon-possessed. The ARS system would malfunction for seemingly no reason. Computer and control issues are the culprit. 

- Tires: 19" wheels are beautiful...and expensive. The front and rear are staggered (no rotating) and the tires last about 12k-15k miles. At $1000 per tire. 

So, in sum, as great of a car as the 745i is, I would personally recommend that you steer clear.
_________

And Butcher...if you have wrenched on one, you have my sympathy. Complexity for complexity sake. Fat cats who own them know nothing about them. None that own them do because engineers and mechanics won't own them...only clueless rich guys buying prestige and getting their just desserts.


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## 1Butcher

There is some misinformation, so let me clear this up. There are not 70+ computers. Tires are not $1000 each. Coolant pumps are aluminum. They need $10k or more to make them right to sell again [That's assuming you can make them right]. You could argue it's worth more in scrap value [even though the the value of scrap is low at this time].

Most importantly, it is the worst vehicle that was ever allowed on the road. Any road in any planet. Even the planets we do not know about. ET chose a Kuwahara to fly around, he could have had a BMW. 

To bring this portion around to the Venge and get back on track, you could ride across the country faster in a Venge than a 745i. Matter of fact, I suspect you would never make it in the BMW. And yes, that is with a broken frame caused by a loose skewer.

Lets talk about tit's and skewers again.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> There is some misinformation, so let me clear this up. There are not 70+ computers. Tires are not $1000 each. Coolant pumps are aluminum. They need $10k or more to make them right to sell again [That's assuming you can make them right]. You could argue it's worth more in scrap value [even though the the value of scrap is low at this time].
> 
> Most importantly, it is the worst vehicle that was ever allowed on the road. Any road in any planet. Even the planets we do not know about. ET chose a Kuwahara to fly around, he could have had a BMW.
> 
> To bring this portion around to the Venge and get back on track, you could ride across the country faster in a Venge than a 745i. Matter of fact, I suspect you would never make it in the BMW. And yes, that is with a broken frame caused by a loose skewer.
> 
> Lets talk about tit's and skewers again.


Think I struck a nerve...lol. Tell us how you really feel about the E65? . 

Before BMW started to sniff too much coke by the mid 90's, here is my 735iL I restored...I only lightly modded it because Bimmers don't need a lot...showed slightly lowered here...a car simpler to work on than a modern Chevy and much more beautiful of course. I sold it to a collector in Nevada who drove it home and called me and told me he got a speeding ticket going over 100mph...where that car would just start to get on the cam.


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## 1Butcher

I was factory trained on that car, then realized it was a good time to get out. Went to Mercedes, best decision I made.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> I was factory trained on that car, then realized it was a good time to get out. Went to Mercedes, best decision I made.


Mercedes isn't much better...lol.


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## 1Butcher

Some decisions are based on finances.


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## thumper8888

Menawhile, the Vias rim brake version has disappeared from Specialized's website. Again. Every build and the frameset, too.
Hypothesis: it's finally gone for good, and they have managed to sell all the stock.


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## goodboyr

Collectors item.....

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## thumper8888

goodboyr said:


> Collectors item.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Well, as much as say, a Chevy Bosworth Vega.

Prob all the bugs are ironed out, if you fit one with the recall rear dropout and the revised brake caliper parts....
But if something ELSE pops up like that you are an orphan.


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## goodboyr

thumper8888 said:


> Well, as much as say, a Chevy Bosworth Vega.
> 
> Prob all the bugs are ironed out, if you fit one with the recall rear dropout and the revised brake caliper parts....
> But if something ELSE pops up like that you are an orphan.


Hahahaha. I remember that car. Good one.  

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## thumper8888

Worse: I can remember being EXCITED about that car.
I feel a wave of shame....

Remember, this was the dark days, when a 350 v-8 camaro with three on the tree was putting out like, 100 horsepower and bumpers weighed a thousand pounds. But still, the shame of it.
And worse yet, if there had been a Cosworth Pinto or Gremlin, I'd have had a picture up in my room.
The 1974 Fiat x 1/9 was at that point the pinnacle of human desire... By 1982 virtually 96 percent of them were little piles of grease and rust...




goodboyr said:


> Hahahaha. I remember that car. Good one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## goodboyr

I had a 72 yellow Toyota Celica with an 8 track, stebro exhaust and I replaced the Japanese horn with a set of compressor driven air horns. Great times. 

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## thumper8888

I am not gonna mock that, that is good taste for cars at that point in history. That was about as good a car as any sold that year... back then even exotica like the Pantera, 911 and 246 Dino were slower in most every ways that a good new civic si.
My best friend in high school had that exact car... 72 celica ...I think it was called the ST, the notchback one. Light blue with white vinyl roof, one of those crappy aftermarket sunroofs cut in and the cheapest aftermarket ******* mags you could put on it with prob high-inch tires.
it would "get a wheel" if you popped it into 2nd just right and that was the definition of badass then.
We totaled that one. But... he has a McLaren now, a 911RS, 308GTS, and three Caymans gutted and roll caged .. and his own mechanic.
So, on evidence you are one day headed for automotive greatness.


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## 1Butcher

thumper8888 said:


> Chevy Bosworth Vega.


It's Cosworth, Bosworth was an overrated football player [a lot like a Venge the way I see it].


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> It's Cosworth, Bosworth was an overrated football player [a lot like a Venge the way I see it].


The Bos..also dabbled in movies.

I had a 72 Vega hatchback w /4 spd manual I drove through last years in college. Because of the sensitive aluminum block without liners...cyl bores were silicon etched a la Porsche and BMW tech...I mounted a S/W mechanical water temp gauge and of course obligatory Lear Jet 8 track. I remember kickin' Led Zepplin II while driving and rear seat would fold down for good times  Ahhh...the good ol' days.


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## 1Butcher

Of course, you would not mention that Mercedes was the second [and the first to do it right] manufacturer before Porsche and BMW followed the leader.

Mercedes did follow GM's example by having Cosworth design a cylinder head for their 4 cylinder, what an abortion that was. Just like a Venge I suppose.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Of course, you would not mention that Mercedes was the second [and the first to do it right] manufacturer before Porsche and BMW followed the leader.
> 
> Mercedes did follow GM's example by having Cosworth design a cylinder head for their 4 cylinder, what an abortion that was. Just like a Venge I suppose.


My father worked at the Chevy tech center during the time of the Vega which was Delorean's brain child. As a result many engineer friends at social gatherings I would attend all laughed about what an abomination the Vega aluminum liner-less engine with iron head was. It was a joke. Chevy engineering struggled with finding a suitable head gasket because of the differential coef. of thermal expansion between Al and Iron and all the coolant leaking into the engine sump causing overheating and warped Al engine blocks...iron cyl heads are pretty resistant to warpage but not Al.
In the words of Donald Trump....that engine was a disaster. Mine made it pretty far without replacing the block but it burned oil like a 2 cycle in the end. You may remember ultimately Chevy sucked it up and scrapped that engine for an all iron 2.5 liter called the 'Iron Duke' which was effectively one half a small block Chevy.


----------



## Merc

Let's get this thread back on topic? Is the rim brake version of the Venge ViAS still being sold?


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## Ikejr

Merc said:


> Let's get this thread back on topic? Is the rim brake version of the Venge ViAS still being sold?


Venge Vias only with Disc Brakes. The Entry model is the Venge Vias Expert with price Tag of U$4.500,00


----------



## thumper8888

1Butcher said:


> It's Cosworth, Bosworth was an overrated football player [a lot like a Venge the way I see it].


Of course I know that, it was an autocorrect


----------



## m3bas

I have the updated brakes, definitely feel a lot better


----------



## Merc

m3bas said:


> I have the updated brakes, definitely feel a lot better


Just the front brakes right? Or has Specialized updated the rear brakes too?


----------



## m3bas

Front and rear


----------



## 1Butcher

Funny how the first version was good enough until it was released to the public.


----------



## goodboyr

Reflecting back on all the great info and over the top description that came from spesh when it first came out........now that's marketing. Where is Chris from specialized now?

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Merc

goodboyr said:


> Reflecting back on all the great info and over the top description that came from spesh when it first came out........now that's marketing. Where is Chris from specialized now?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


I thought the same thing. 

It is still one of my favorite and fastest bikes I have.


----------



## m3bas

While this topic is active- has anyone managed to fit a tri-bar extension to the Vias?


----------



## thumper8888

If you go dig around on the specialized website among cockpit parts I think they have a couple of parts to do exactly that.


----------



## m3bas

$450 for a bar which attaches to stem. They are joking aren't they?


----------



## 11spd

m3bas said:


> $450 for a bar which attaches to stem. They are joking aren't they?


Yes they are joking. Good news for them is they will find people to pay the exorbitant prices for the proprietary parts and accessories for the VIAS...meanwhile those models with caliper brakes have poor braking...the bike is a PITA to set up and for what? 1 watt at 20 mph and 3 watts at 30 mph compared to the simple and much less expensive Tarmac which is a better overall performing bike with the same wheelset? That bike is to generate revenue for Specialized...their flawed flagship. I have ridden it. Its nice enough and fast. But so are countless other bikes that are easier to work on with better brakes without a need for disk brakes which many don't want.
So the joke is on the guys that are willing to pay for bike for little value added.


----------



## thumper8888

dig it. the actual handlebars themselves go for $340 if you can persuade them to sell you one, and the stems are $140. 
I feel certain that with careful shopping I could buy a bike for $480 that Froome could win the tour on.


----------



## 1Butcher

The people that worry about money, do not have enough of it, and blame the stupid rich for wasting their money.

Some products are not made for the average person. Ferrari's, Porsche's, McLaren's, Rolex, etc

What is foolish, you have millions of dollars and want to horde it or buy the things you want to make your life better. You cannot take it with you. If it makes you happy to horde it, fine. If it makes you happy to buy products that make you happy, even better.

It's not foolish to market a product for the people that have money. It's not a joke on them either. Could you imagine that they only made an object that 99% of the people in the world could buy? We would still be riding steel pipe bikes.

If it costs too much for you, too bad, so sad. Work harder or save longer.


----------



## 1Butcher

thumper8888 said:


> I feel certain that with careful shopping I could buy a bike for $480 that Froome could win the tour on.


No you could not. I can't prove it and neither could you. To win the Tour, you need a good TT bike, good team, and a good road bike. You could not spend $480 for a pair of bikes that will win the Tour. 

I will give you that you need a few good engines [ie Team] and a great engine [GC rider] first, then a couple good bikes second. 

Road Bike Cycling 18 Speed 26 Inch/700CC Unisex SHIMANO TX30 BB5 Disc Brake Air Suspension Fork Aluminium Frame Aluminium Dequilon® 4935794 2016 ? $499.99


----------



## packetloss

1Butcher said:


> Some products are not made for the average person. Ferrari's, Porsche's, McLaren's, Rolex, etc.
> 
> It's not foolish to market a product for the people that have money. It's not a joke on them either. Could you imagine that they only made an object that 99% of the people in the world could buy? We would still be riding steel pipe bikes.


I disagree. I have had my VIAS for almost a year and it's spent more time at the shop than my previous 5 bikes put together over a 10 year period. A Porsche or a Ferrari is a better buy any day of the week than this bike. The design of this bike and the experience of owning it are so bad that I don't think I will buy another Specialized product again. Forget the price, it's not about money, it's that this bike is a big pain in the ass to own.


----------



## thumper8888

1Butcher said:


> The people that worry about money, do not have enough of it, and blame the stupid rich for wasting their money.
> 
> Some products are not made for the average person. Ferrari's, Porsche's, McLaren's, Rolex, etc
> 
> What is foolish, you have millions of dollars and want to horde it or buy the things you want to make your life better. You cannot take it with you. If it makes you happy to horde it, fine. If it makes you happy to buy products that make you happy, even better.
> 
> It's not foolish to market a product for the people that have money. It's not a joke on them either. Could you imagine that they only made an object that 99% of the people in the world could buy? We would still be riding steel pipe bikes.
> 
> If it costs too much for you, too bad, so sad. Work harder or save longer.



Trying hard to envision a world in which people don't talk about the price of stuff.
I just can't do it...
I AM able to envision a world with less attitude.


----------



## 1Butcher

Talking about price is fine, saying that people with money are stupid for spending it is just not right. Normally it starts with someone that does not have enough money.

Companies make products for stupid [as in a lot] money, it's not just a Specialized thing.

As for the Venge being a good product, well, I do not own one, but it appears that people are not happy with it. It probably could of spent a few more weeks/years in R&D. Which was my comment about that the product was good enough for Specialized but not good enough for the public. Again, many companies have pulled this blunder [Samsung phones seem to be the most current].


----------



## thumper8888

I think most people would understand that I meant a road bike for the majority of the stages. It would be hard to buy a set of even faintly competitive TT wheels for under $1k.
I didn't say new. I could certainly find an e5 s-works bike for that, or an iteration or two back of the CAAD, and if it could be kept under 17 pounds I doubt there would be a problem.


----------



## thumper8888

1Butcher said:


> Talking about price is fine, saying that people with money are stupid for spending it is just not right. Normally it starts with someone that does not have enough money.
> 
> Companies make products for stupid [as in a lot] money, it's not just a Specialized thing.
> 
> As for the Venge being a good product, well, I do not own one, but it appears that people are not happy with it. It probably could of spent a few more weeks/years in R&D. Which was my comment about that the product was good enough for Specialized but not good enough for the public. Again, many companies have pulled this blunder [Samsung phones seem to be the most current].


OK, so it wasn't directed at me then.
Fair enough, though the "normally" part seems to insinuate that any of us who aren't filthy rich have issues.
Your take on the Venge needing a little more time in the R&D oven seems spot on, given the evidence. Things like novel brakes are an area almost destined for issues (P4 etc) that may not be apparent on the company lunch race during prototyping.
It seems like they've worked through a lot of it now, although clearly judging from posts here a day late and dollar short for some owners.
The lingering issue I still don't get is why it's so heavy. The Madone has all kinds of extra oddities on it, and they still came in close to 15 lbs... the S5 is more traditional, but got pretty close to the venge and madone on aero and it too can be built up at around 15 lbs.
2 lbs is quite a penalty in such a competitive market.


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Talking about price is fine, saying that people with money are stupid for spending it is just not right. Normally it starts with someone that does not have enough money.
> 
> Companies make products for stupid [as in a lot] money, it's not just a Specialized thing.
> 
> As for the Venge being a good product, well, I do not own one, but it appears that people are not happy with it. It probably could of spent a few more weeks/years in R&D. Which was my comment about that the product was good enough for Specialized but not good enough for the public. Again, many companies have pulled this blunder [Samsung phones seem to be the most current].


No, people are stupid with their money. In fact its one of the reasons for the housing bubble. People living beyond their means, including the massive credit card debt in America. But stupid is in the eye of the beholder. When it come to sport Butcher...maybe you haven't been accomplished at enough sports from running to tennis, to bowling to skiing to swimming to cycling, you can't buy game. That doesn't stop people from buying $200 sneakers, or $700 drivers in golf even though they can't break 85 on a muni course to $10K bicycles who are slower than an A group recreational cyclist like the first VIAS I passed on my Roubaix...first one I had seen on the road. All the fastest guys in my club would be the fastest guys on any road bike and they are. The bike doesn't matter...within general parameters. When I ride next to the fastest CAT 1 in my state who I know personally, at 23mph his heart rate is 80 bpm when everybody else is way above that. He has the engine.

Durianrider is gonna drop you or me on a $500 bike even though our bikes cost 10 x's that. The VIAS exists as a flagship for Specialized when its technical sophistication means almost nothing....just like the electric shifting you like and I don't means nothing and many tour riders still prefer mechanical shifting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzEhqx0sDY


----------



## 1Butcher

What we do with our money is our business. Should we have a spending police that will determine where we spend out money? If there was not those rich people to buy that technology, there would be no trickle down tech to the masses. 

If someone wants to spend $10000 on a bike that makes them feel good. Great, who are we to say they're stupid? Heck, most of us have bikes that are beyond the average Walmart special and some that are not in our hobby think we're all stupid. 

Before someone chimes in, I'll say it, Can we get back on topic? How's that overpriced Venge, with poor quality brakes, and expensive handle bars working out for you?


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> What we do with our money is our business. Should we have a spending police that will determine where we spend out money? If there was not those rich people to buy that technology, there would be no trickle down tech to the masses.
> 
> If someone wants to spend $10000 on a bike that makes them feel good. Great, who are we to say they're stupid? Heck, most of us have bikes that are beyond the average Walmart special and some that are not in our hobby think we're all stupid.
> 
> Before someone chimes in, I'll say it, Can we get back on topic? How's that overpriced Venge, with poor quality brakes, and expensive handle bars working out for you?


You are right about telling people how to spend their money but we can still tell them they are stupid. 

I have ridden the new VIAS. Where I live the caliper brakes don't matter much because its relatively flat. I honestly liked the bike. But for its complexity and cost, I would rather have a Tarmac with Zipps and Campy SR and the handlebar and freedom to put what stem I want on the bike. I also don't like the single bolt seat post. But the VIAS handled crisply, rode well and was fast. I believe a properly outfitted Tarmac would come in lighter, have been brakes and overall be a better bike and since I rarely ride above 25 mph, the aero advantage of the VIAS would be nebulous. Other bikes I would prefer to the VIAS are the new Madone and the Pinarello Dogma...but the Tarmac for the money is hard to beat.


----------



## Rashadabd

*Somehow this song seems like such a good fit for where this thread is currently....*


----------



## dcorn

11spd said:


> You are right about telling people how to spend their money but we can still tell them they are stupid.
> 
> I have ridden the new VIAS. Where I live the caliper brakes don't matter much because its relatively flat. I honestly liked the bike. But for its complexity and cost, I would rather have a Tarmac with Zipps and Campy SR and the handlebar and freedom to put what stem I want on the bike. I also don't like the single bolt seat post. But the VIAS handled crisply, rode well and was fast. I believe a properly outfitted Tarmac would come in lighter, have been brakes and overall be a better bike and since I rarely ride above 25 mph, the aero advantage of the VIAS would be nebulous. Other bikes I would prefer to the VIAS are the new Madone and the Pinarello Dogma...but the Tarmac for the money is hard to beat.


Don't have any hills to climb or descend and don't ride above 25mph? Sounds like a Roubaix is your best bet, honestly. Why would you buy a super lightweight race-bred bike if you aren't going to ride it fast or do any climbing? Why buy Zipps if not for the aero advantage or stiffness since you aren't riding fast? Why not get a cheaper, slightly heavier groupset and not spend a fortune on SR? What kind of forces are you putting on the single bolt seat post that would knock it out of line? 

And if you really want to get down to it, we are all Spesh fanbois. There are many bikes out there with the same engineering and ride characteristics that are much cheaper than the Tarmac or Venge. High end Giant bikes have the same builds for over a grand less, no way is any specialized bike a 'great value' by any means. (I just love the way their bikes look over others, so I keep buying them, instead of saving money and getting something just as good. I have a SL4 S-works and a Crux with SCS lol)


----------



## 11spd

Why do you waste your money on a SL4 Sworks and Crux if you are a slow rider dcorn?
Just cause you want to look pretty?


----------



## 1Butcher

Because it's his money, not yours. 

The same question can be asked of you. Why do you waste your money on a Roubaix? Why do I waste my money on a SL3 with SR EPS? 'Cause it makes some of my body parts hard [and I have that kind of money to 'waste'].

What makes the new brakes different on the Venge, is it that they feel better, modulation, more power, less effort? I'm curious.


----------



## dcorn

11spd said:


> Why do you waste your money on a SL4 Sworks and Crux if you are a slow rider dcorn?
> Just cause you want to look pretty?


Who said I was a slow rider? I'd buy my ViAS with discs so I can slow down when bombing hills, not argue about how crappy the rim brakes are when I know discs are superior and not a huge aero handicap.

And yes, I do want my bikes to look pretty. I love the sloping top tube of Spesh bikes, which makes me still torn on the ViAS frame. I like the gen 1 Venge better, but love bikes with integrated brakes over normal single bolt brakes on the fork and seat stays. That's what pushes me towards the Giant Propel or Ridley Noah Fast. But I'm going to wait it out and get a disc bike because I want brakes that i know will work.


----------



## 11spd

dcorn said:


> Who said I was a slow rider? I'd buy my ViAS with discs so I can slow down when bombing hills, not argue about how crappy the rim brakes are when I know discs are superior and not a huge aero handicap.
> 
> And yes, I do want my bikes to look pretty. I love the sloping top tube of Spesh bikes, which makes me still torn on the ViAS frame. I like the gen 1 Venge better, but love bikes with integrated brakes over normal single bolt brakes on the fork and seat stays. That's what pushes me towards the Giant Propel or Ridley Noah Fast. But I'm going to wait it out and get a disc bike because I want brakes that i know will work.


I presumed you were a slow rider because you said I was. Why aren't I faster than you? A 12 year old girl can bomb down hills fast.


----------



## JimmyORCA

Just curious how do you unfollow a thread on RBR?


----------



## dcorn

JimmyORCA said:


> Just curious how do you unfollow a thread on RBR?


LOL 

Go to your profile, subscribed threads, then select and delete.


----------



## 1Butcher

JimmyORCA said:


> Just curious how do you unfollow a thread on RBR?


Can we get back on topic?


----------



## taodemon

11spd said:


> Durianrider is gonna drop you or me on a $500 bike even though our bikes cost 10 x's that. The VIAS exists as a flagship for Specialized when its technical sophistication means almost nothing....just like the electric shifting you like and I don't means nothing and many tour riders still prefer mechanical shifting.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzEhqx0sDY


Can't listen to the audio of the video at work but the numbers from the ride don't look that impressive. Does he comment on the slow bike being just as fast? I don't see numbers for the supposed expensive bike other than a price in the title. I wouldn't have been dropped on that particular ride and I'm not exactly the fastest rider.


----------



## TricrossRich

What's the topic again? Is DurianRider fast? He's not slow, but he's not some all-star fast guy either... I'd say he's pretty much on-par with the average cat2/cat3 racer and he's got an opinion. Good for him.


----------



## 11spd

Agree Durianrider is the equivalent of a cat 2. Compared to the biking population, that's fast. I believe Durianrider concedes the bike matters but to a very small degree. When climbing of course weight matters. When comparing a VIAS to a Tarmac with same wheels, the bike doesn't matter much...or probably less than one versus two water bottles or how much a given rider varies from day to day.
OMO. The fastest guys in my club...cat 2/3 would drop anybody on any decent bike...say at the level of an off the shelf CAAD 10/12 with 105 versus any other slippery bike and/or wheelset.


----------



## taodemon

11spd said:


> OMO. The fastest guys in my club...cat 2/3 would drop anybody on any decent bike...say at the level of an off the shelf CAAD 10/12 with 105 versus any other slippery bike and/or wheelset.


You're assuming all guys on slippery bikes are slow fat dentists. Of course a much stronger rider will out ride a much weaker one. In a race those same club cat 2/3 will be racing against mostly equal competition and likely won't be dropping people regardless of bikes involved unless again, they are much stronger and then your back to comparing apples to oranges. Among a relatively equal field on appropriate terrain a slippery bike might put a slightly weaker guy closer to the stronger ones or give a slight advantage between two equal riders. Is it worth the huge price differences between an entry level aluminum bike and a top of the line carbon aero bike? Well that is subjective on what you want to or can spend on it.


----------



## 1Butcher

taodemon said:


> You're assuming all guys on slippery bikes are slow fat dentists.


This is so true and many people like Durianrider forget to mention. People forget that he could not pass the fit dentists with slippery bikes with his $500 bike. They were too far ahead of him.

The only constant in this equation is the bike. So trying to make a argument that it's not the bike because it's how much power you make is nuts. 

So, if a group of individuals with similar skills [ie Tour GC contenders] were racing for 21 days and only one had a $500 bike [the rest had what the sponsors gave them], I believe the Vegas odd makers would not give the nod to the unlucky person with the $500 bike. I'm willing to say, the new $500 bike would not make it the entire event without a major issue.

Froome may beat all of us with a $500 bike, but with a group of his peers, I say not.

I do agree, ride with what you can afford and enjoy it. Boasting about some dentist that has a bucket load of money in his bike and you passing him with your Schwinn Varsity just show what kind of person you are. 

If you are fortunate to have nothing better to do and can ride your bike every day of the week, Great. Some of us have to work for a living and therefore riding gets lower on the priority list.


----------



## Butscut

*New Venge Brakes*



m3bas said:


> I have the updated brakes, definitely feel a lot better


Ditto. I now have the new front/rear brakes and they are WAY better. The bike now feels much safer and I feel far more confident at the bottom of descents when travelling >80kph.


----------



## mile2424

Finally some read worthy info on this thread. Glad to see people are liking the new brakes. I need to get mine updated before I re-do and custom paint my bike.

For those of you who have had your brakes replaced, where are you located? My LBS still claims they haven't heard anything official about this.


----------



## 1Butcher

With the new brakes, would any of you recommend the bike to others? Obviously you purchased the bikes with the original version brakes, but with the new ones, is it icing on the cake or would you still say it's not worth it and buy something else?

I could see myself purchasing a used frameset in the future, if the brake thing is sorted out. Routing cables is a non issue for me and electric shifting solves that portion of the cable issue too.


----------



## Toto76

mile2424 said:


> For those of you who have had your brakes replaced, where are you located? My LBS still claims they haven't heard anything official about this.


I am based in Australia and had mine done 6 weeks ago. My understanding of the brake replacement is you have to request it. They are not offering it as a recall and if your LBS doesn't call them and ask they will not get them. So tell them to call and they will send out front and rear complete calliper's which they will fit and the difference will be night and day.


----------



## 1Butcher

I guess Peter Sagan got his new race bike, a Venge without discs. It appears that the brakes have improved enough since he has opted out before.


----------



## taodemon

1Butcher said:


> I guess Peter Sagan got his new race bike, a Venge without discs. It appears that the brakes have improved enough since he has opted out before.


He has been using the VIAS all year. Winning several stages in the TDF on it as well as the latest world championship on it. Whatever issues he might have had with it have long been resolved, either by actual fixes or $$$. On mountain stages you will still see him on a Tarmac, but that seems to be standard operating procedures for him, using the best bike for the terrain.


----------



## dcorn

1Butcher said:


> I guess Peter Sagan got his new race bike, a Venge without discs. It appears that the brakes have improved enough since he has opted out before.


?? 

You're surprised his bike doesn't have discs, even though they aren't yet UCI legal? 

You're surprised he'll be riding a ViAS this year, even though he just won the world championship on one?


----------



## mile2424

Boonen posted a picture of him saying he got the disc version and said it's the best bike he's ever ridden.


----------



## 11spd

mile2424 said:


> Boonen posted a picture of him saying he got the disc version and said it's the best bike he's ever ridden.


Well...he gets paid to ride it. Two, disc brakes are outstanding but cost more, are less aero..weigh a few grams more and Boonen probably couldn't change the brake pads...disc brakes are more of PITA to maintain...I have owned both.

The new Venge is a great bike...but a higher maintenance bike than a Tarmac which is lighter and the VIAS costs more.


----------



## 1Butcher

dcorn said:


> You're surprised his bike doesn't have discs, even though they aren't yet UCI legal?


I thought they lifted the ban on discs, my mistake if I'm wrong. 
UCI confirms disc brake retrial to begin January 1 in road events | Cyclingnews.com

So, if he chose to pick rim vs disc brakes, that means that maybe the rim brakes have improved that much [compared to the original ones and disc brakes]. 

That was my surprise.


----------



## 11spd

Butcher,
There is a tendency to look at brake type in isolation for performance. Couldn't be farther from the truth. I assure you that once the ban is lifted, a lot of the peloton will still ride calipers and will be a long time coming if the ban stays lifted that the entire peloton goes disc. Many reasons:
1. Weight: discs getting lighter all the time...matters more if UCI eases 15 lb bogie which they likely will with ever improving tech.
2. Aerodynamics. Aero bike with hidden calipers are more aero than rotor+ exposed caliper. Again, further improvements can be made to disc and will be
3. Tendency for brake rub. Ever owned a disk bike? Slight rotor bump...lack of caliper centeredness makes set up with disc trickier than caliper.
4. Wheel changes among team members. Disk are more sensitive to rotor position.

Let the best man win. Best choice of brakes maybe different for an amateur and ironically the braking performance between disk and caliper maybe only one consideration which brake type pros prefer....for example in the flat lands I ride I pick caliper hands down. If living in the mountains with heavy brake riding down long descents, I would likely choose a disk brake bike and put up with the PITA maintenance.


----------



## 1Butcher

I agree, the point I was trying to make is that it appeared that the original brakes on the Venge were not up to par and that the Peloton was not using them because of that. Now with the updated brakes, they appear to have met the standards where the pros will choose the bike. So good, that Peter chose it, we could say that Peter did not pick it at all, it's what Santa brought him. We all know Santa does not hit a home run all the time. 

Trying to start a debate which is better discs or calipers is a waste of time. Everyone has their points and they all believe they're right.


----------



## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> I agree, the point I was trying to make is that it appeared that the original brakes on the Venge were not up to par and that the Peloton was not using them because of that. Now with the updated brakes, they appear to have met the standards where the pros will choose the bike. So good, that Peter is chose it, we could say that Peter did not pick it at all, it's what Santa brought him. We all know Santa does not hit a home run all the time.
> 
> Trying to start a debate which is better discs or calipers is a waste of time. Everyone has their points and they all believe they're right.


All true. Wasn't trying to start a debate. Was simply stating why I believe both disks and calipers will still be used on in the same pro events including '17 TdF simply because some riders and teams prefer calipers for some of the reasons I mentioned...and of course tradition as old habits die hard.


----------



## dcorn

Wow, those brake comparisons are confusing as hell. Disc brakes have calipers too. You should probably stick to referring to them as 'rim brakes' and 'disc brakes'.


----------



## mile2424

packetloss said:


> I disagree. I have had my VIAS for almost a year and it's spent more time at the shop than my previous 5 bikes put together over a 10 year period. A Porsche or a Ferrari is a better buy any day of the week than this bike. The design of this bike and the experience of owning it are so bad that I don't think I will buy another Specialized product again. Forget the price, it's not about money, it's that this bike is a big pain in the ass to own.


What were the issues you had with it? Besides the derailleur recall and wanting to upgrade to the new calipers, I haven't had any issues with mine.


----------



## Merc

Are the new brake calipers for the front and back? If so, does anyone know the part numbers for those new brakes?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mile2424

Merc said:


> Are the new brake calipers for the front and back? If so, does anyone know the part numbers for those new brakes?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here's what I got. My shop didn't really know anything about them when I first asked. I had to ask a couple times. But I told them I had heard they were available and then when they called Specialized they were able to get them. So it's not really something being "advertised" and least when I had asked.


----------



## Merc

Thank you. I really appreciate it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ThiagoM

I have a Vias since September 2016, and I have riden more than 2000 km. I'm a big guy, 6'22" and 211 lbs. I really love the bike. 

The only issues I had were:
(1) The recall of the rear hanger;
(2) I had to change the bolt of the seat clamp because I overtightened it;

Other than that, no issues at all. And I have to say, here in Rio de Janeiro (Brazil) the support from the Specialized dealer is amazing. I had my rear hanger changed in the first week of October, less than a week after I was informed about the recall. And different from US or Europe, customer suport is something that you must have in mind before buying a bike.

About the braking issue, I still have the original brake calipers but the brakes work fine for me. 

I live in Rio de Janeiro and train every week in the descent that was used during the Olympic road race (the one that everybody crashed). It is very technical and often humid. It is basically 5km with an average grade of 10% with peaks of 14%. I use a set of Mavic R-SYS SLR and the bike brakes perfectly. Good stoping power and modulation. If I had any important issue with braking I would have crashed by now.

For trains with not so hard descents I use a set of Mavic Cosmic Ultimate. Again, no issues. And changing the wheels and brake pads are not diffcult. And I'm not a good or experienced mechanic. Of course a normal brake caliper is easier, but the difference is not something that bothers me.

The setup of the brakes are a PITA, but once done, they work very well. Based on what other owners said here, I asked the Speacialized dealer how much it would cost to have the new set of calipers. Let's see how much it will cost here in Brazil.


----------



## mile2424

Anytime. Hopefully your LBS can get them for you quickly.


----------



## mile2424

ThiagoM said:


> I have a Vias since September 2016, and I have riden more than 2000 km. I'm a big guy, 6'22" and 211 lbs. I really love the bike.
> 
> The only issues I had were:
> (1) The recall of the rear hanger;
> (2) I had to change the bolt of the seat clamp because I overtightened it;
> 
> Other than that, no issues at all. And I have to say, here in Rio de Janeiro (Brazil) the support from the Specialized dealer is amazing. I had my rear hanger changed in the first week of October, less than a week after I was informed about the recall. And different from US or Europe, customer suport is something that you must have in mind before buying a bike.
> 
> About the braking issue, I still have the original brake calipers but the brakes work fine for me.
> 
> I live in Rio de Janeiro and train every week in the descent that was used during the Olympic road race (the one that everybody crashed). It is very technical and often humid. It is basically 5km with an average grade of 10% with peaks of 14%. I use a set of Mavic R-SYS SLR and the bike brakes perfectly. Good stoping power and modulation. If I had any important issue with braking I would have crashed by now.
> 
> For trains with not so hard descents I use a set of Mavic Cosmic Ultimate. Again, no issues. And changing the wheels and brake pads are not diffcult. And I'm not a good or experienced mechanic. Of course a normal brake caliper is easier, but the difference is not something that bothers me.
> 
> The setup of the brakes are a PITA, but once done, they work very well. Based on what other owners said here, I asked the Speacialized dealer how much it would cost to have the new set of calipers. Let's see how much it will cost here in Brazil.


I would hope they would give you the brakes for free when buying a bike like the Vias. I was not charged for mine.


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## ThiagoM

mile2424 said:


> I would hope they would give you the brakes for free when buying a bike like the Vias. I was not charged for mine.


Good to know. Thanks!


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## thumper8888

So the Venge Vias Curse continues... they have stopped selling the rim brake models, putting all their eggs in the disc basket, which they say was the intent of the design all along...
And now it seems increasingly possible -- maybe not probable yet, but possible -- that discs will banned from the pro peloton...
Or at least forced to have some sort of inevitably cumbersome shield installed over them... which is hard to see how that is going to work.
At minimum, discs are getting bad PR at exactly the time the Vias went all-disc.


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## MMsRepBike

thumper8888 said:


> So the Venge Vias Curse continues... they have stopped selling the rim brake models, putting all their eggs in the disc basket, which they say was the intent of the design all along...
> And now it seems increasingly possible -- maybe not probable yet, but possible -- that discs will banned from the pro peloton...
> Or at least forced to have some sort of inevitably cumbersome shield installed over them... which is hard to see how that is going to work.
> At minimum, discs are getting bad PR at exactly the time the Vias went all-disc.



Nope.

Specialized will just give the UCI even more money to force it through.

As Adam Hansen said, "Someone might have to take a bullet for change to happen"

It's pretty clear that the big S's bribery money is substantial, and it's also quite clear that the UCI has a history of taking money for favors.


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## 11spd

MMsRepBike said:


> Nope.
> 
> Specialized will just give the UCI even more money to force it through.
> 
> As Adam Hansen said, "Someone might have to take a bullet for change to happen"
> 
> It's pretty clear that the big S's bribery money is substantial, and it's also quite clear that the UCI has a history of taking money for favors.


Not so sure. Depends how many riders get hacked. For the average guy riding in the mountains, disks make sense...but in the peloton, pile ups are as common as people clipping in..all the time. Without guards, somebody is gonna get gouged. Law of averages. In fact, this whole play out seems nonsensical and the pro riders are pretty upset about it because they are in harm's way. All they want as pros is an 'even playing field' Rim brakes have worked well in the mountains of Europe how long?...and current designs are better than ever today. Likely there will be boycott if a known rider gets badly injured...independent of Spesh's money because its going to cost sales and possible redesigns and tooling. The saga continues...why should the controversy change?...nothing has changed.
Guards add fractional weight and have an aero deficit. Will be interesting but I believe the end of disks will happen unless guards are mandatory. Not for average Joe however.


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## 1Butcher

It will be interesting no matter what happens. All it takes is one rider blame the discs and everyone freaks out. I believe I saw somewhere that the video clip shows that the barriers may have caused the cut in his shoe.

Either way, time marches on and there are lots of issues on the horizon.


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## MMsRepBike

Lotto-Soudal pro Adam Hansen says Specialized is trying to force disc brakes on peloton | road.cc

Mr. Hansen can see clearly, as usual.



> I do believe – and this is just my opinion – that Specialized is pushing.
> 
> Tom Boonen was against disc brakes last year, now he’s retiring this year and loves them.
> 
> We’ve got bikes where we can have disc brakes, none of us want to use them.
> 
> 
> The other teams, they all have the option to use them but no-one is. I don’t want to be picking on sponsors or anything, but this is Specialized riders that are using them.


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## thumper8888

1Butcher said:


> It will be interesting no matter what happens. All it takes is one rider blame the discs and everyone freaks out. I believe I saw somewhere that the video clip shows that the barriers may have caused the cut in his shoe.
> 
> Either way, time marches on and there are lots of issues on the horizon.


Exactly. And this current state of uncertainty, which appears likely to continue for awhile, creates a real dilemma for someone who races occasionally but rides a lot and wants discs.
USAC seems capable of going either way... well after the pro situation comes to some sort of stable conclusion.
Meanwhile, if you show up with discs, at minimum you may well get flack from the other racers, or even on a group ride.
Not applicable to me, I don't have big descents where I am and discs are basically nipples on a boar hog here. But I can see where some might want them for legit reasons elsewhere. 
An odd technological moment... will be interesting to see how it plays out. But it seems destined to mar pretty much the entire normal product cycle of the disc venge.


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## MMsRepBike

Well it's at least obvious enough now that they're openly admitting it:



> Interestingly, Specialized doesn’t dispute Hansen’s assertion that it is pushing its riders to adopt disc brakes. In fact, global PR manager Sean Estes openly admits it.
> 
> “Yeah, we’re pushing it, because we’re making [disc-equipped bikes] and we believe in them,” he said. “But the implication in this most recent article that ‘pushing something’ is a bad idea is totally ridiculous. We pay teams and athletes to endorse our products, just like everyone does. That is literally how this sport works. Of course we’re pushing it. But we’re not pushing anything that’s dangerous or anything that we don’t believe in or that we don’t think they shouldn’t believe in. We’re attempting to guide them to what we believe is the right way. *There’s nothing malicious whatsoever*.”
> 
> “If anyone is guilty of anything, it’s not the UCI or the industry to try to push the technology; it’s the riders,” said Estes. “There almost seems to be a collusion on behalf of the riders on their own to create this illusion that discs are these fiery hot razor blades out to decapitate people. It’s not true. There’s a lot of alleged sensationalism on both sides, and I think it’s silly. Since the rounded rotors, there has yet to be a single injury attributed to discs. I would argue that they actually improve safety.”


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## thumper8888

MMsRepBike said:


> Well it's at least obvious enough now that they're openly admitting it:



Yeah, there is some interesting material in that... 


they "don't believe" there's anything dangerous about discs... they are "trying to guide" us toward them.

Well, they believed the vias rim brakes were great... until they didn't. They probably believed they had engineered it so the front calipers wouldn't hit the downtube... and they didn't think about the front of the fork hitting the downtube either. Or the dropout being potentially lethal.

In short, Specialized is not perfect and is hardly in a godlike position, morally or rationally, to be able to dictate terms on this.

He would argue that they are actually safer? Well, he can all he wants, but... it's just his argument. I know they've probably done a metric ton of testing on the brakes' function, but the jury is out on safety. I'm not buying the shoe slice but there apparently have been cuts in cross and MTB.
Now, how you balance, in dunno, 36 sliced calves in five years on the pro peloton if that happens ....but no deaths, with bikes stopping better, I dunno. I do know how I would balance one fatal neck neck slice with the safety gains in braking he's apparently referring to.

At this point I don't know how I feel personally discs in pack racing, but I "would argue" that Specialized is not pushing them so hard because it believes they're safer for the peloton.
They're trying to make a buck. And yeah, it's OK to call BS on that.


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## MMsRepBike

Well they may have to be lending the UCI some lawyers soon for it, we know they have plenty of those:

CPA lawyers challenge UCI's disc brake rules | VeloNews.com

CPA is getting the law involved if they keep being snubbed.


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## thumper8888

I almost laughed but I caught myself... they absolutely would do that.

Oh.... and he's saying the rounding of the rotors has rendered them all safe. Which just makes no sense. At the speeds and forces we're talking about, I can't believe that has much effect at all.
I will go out on a limb though and forecast a crazy video set in Win Tunnel involving Venge disc rotors, the sound track from "Saturday Night Fever" and some sort of grooming test with the current Extra Furry version of Peter Sagan. 
There will be gold metallic Spandex.


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## MMsRepBike

Well not that my opinion matters at all but I agree with him.

My problem with disc brakes has been the lack of cooperation and the overall circus show from those with the money and power.

There needs to be standards. Same hub width, same rotor spacing, same axles, same retention, same kind of calipers. 

These 135mm rear hub spaced bikes that need special cranksets and such are dumb. Bikes with one thru axle and one quick release are dumb. Any bike with discs should have thru axles, plain and simple.

Also the hoods, up until the recent Shimano ones, have been horrible from everyone. Shimano finally made one that isn't ridiculous, finally made one with basically the same shape and size.

As for rotors, yeah, round the edges, case closed there. I've never seen any sort of real danger or whatever to them, just round the edges, problem solved. The mechanics can do it, it doesn't need to be OEM like that, only the pros would need rounded edges if anyone.


Again, the bikes with proprietary cranks or quick releases or 135mm hubs or post mount calipers are the issue with me. The safety of rotors isn't even worth discussing. Just get on the same page, do it right, pull your heads out of your asses... it shouldn't be hard.


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## JSR

It seems like the CPA has latched onto this issue as the one they can use to assert themselves in the grand dynamic among UCI, ASO, AIGCP, etc. In general I am in favor of CPA having a stronger voice, but the safety of discs seems a bit "fake news"-y to me. 

They have done a good job making progress on road hazards and caravan safety. I wish they'd declare victory and start to focus on important issues like minimum salaries and pay to play.


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## 1Butcher

When the dust settles with this last crash, will they outlaw barriers that caused the cut?


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