# Cop says friend's flashing headlight is illegal



## freighttraininguphill

I went on a night ride with a friend who has a NiteRider MiNewt Cordless 350. Maybe we're doing something wrong, or the handlebar mount the light comes with is crap, because we can't get it cinched down enough to prevent the light from moving even during normal road riding at lower speeds.

He likes to use flash mode for the same reason I do. Motorists tend to notice you more with a flashing light. Unfortunately, the MiNewt's flash mode is referred to as "daylight flash mode" in the owner's manual, and for good reason. The flash pattern is too fast for night use. It has a strobe effect like an emergency vehicle Opticom system, so it can be much more annoying to someone than a light with a slower flash pattern. I used to use two older MiNewt lights with the same flash pattern, but stopped using them after complaints from passing cyclists, pedestrians, and motorists (no cops though, I must have been lucky!).

Well, the light must have moved out of position yet again, because a Sacramento PD officer stopped at a flashing yellow traffic light to watch us approach (which immediately raised a red flag with me. He said "Where you guys going?", then when my friend rode over to his car he told him his light was blinding and too bright, as well as illegal.

The cop never said anything to me. I had three headlights that were all on flash mode, but they have slower flash patterns (two Cateye HL-EL130s and a Dinotte 200L).

The moral of the story? Make sure your lights are aimed properly, especially if you have a light with a fast flash pattern like the NiteRiders. I think the cop is wrong for telling my friend it's illegal to have a flashing light, but I'm almost 100% positive that he wouldn't have bothered my friend at all if his light was properly aimed or in steady burn mode.


----------



## brady1

Huh...well now we know.

Thanks for being respectful to the officer. Seriously, most people probably would have been a smart @$$ to him.

I commute to work on a military installation and I get random comments from the gate guards about how bright my helmet mounted light is but I've never had one tell me to change it. I couldn't anyway. It's a 10 year old Nite Rider with one setting...ON.

But yeah, like he said, I've always heard the front light should be solid; flashing for the rear. If you really want a flashing light on the front you (or your friend?) can get a small one. Sometimes I use a small handlebar-mounted light that's about the size of a watch face. It doesn't really cast that much of a beam but you can definitely see it in flash mode.


----------



## freighttraininguphill

brady1 said:


> Thanks for being respectful to the officer. Seriously, most people probably would have been a smart @$$ to him.


I'll pass your thanks on to my friend . I stayed out of the way by the curb and didn't say a word, since the officer wasn't talking to me.

I still think it isn't illegal to have a flashing light. It's just a good idea to have one with a slower flash pattern so it isn't so annoying/disorienting/dangerous (take your pick). I refuse to use my old NiteRiders on flash mode at night. In fact I haven't used them at all in years.

I'm trying to convince my friend to run his light in steady mode, but he's being his usual stubborn self, even though I told him he would get three hours of runtime in medium mode.


----------



## DaFlake

I have often wondered about this and I am sure that it is different from state to state. However, the cop is likely right as you have to follow the motor vehicle laws.

Article 7. Flashing and Colored Lights - Sections 25250-25282 :: California Vehicle Code :: 2005 California Code :: California Law :: California Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

This is the section that I think might cover a bike rider....



> 25251.2. Any motorcycle may be equipped with a means of modulating
> the upper beam of the headlamp between a high and a lower brightness
> at a rate of 200 to 280 flashes per minute. Such headlamps shall not
> be so modulated during darkness.


Although it does say motorcycle and if you were ticketed, you might be able to successfully fight it. Still, I have seen some of these flashing lights that cyclists are starting to use and one was so bright that it blinded me as I was driving. Not sure that I would use one without making sure it is properly aimed as it annoyed me, so it would like annoy others.


----------



## freighttraininguphill

DaFlake said:


> I have seen some of these flashing lights that cyclists are starting to use and one was so bright that it blinded me as I was driving. Not sure that I would use one without making sure it is properly aimed as it annoyed me, so it would like annoy others.


That is what worries me. Because the lights are getting more and more powerful, I'm afraid that existing motor vehicle laws will be enforced against cyclists. Either that, or new anti-flashing light laws will be written that specifically mention flashing lights on _bicycles_. It's a shame, because there are too many oblivious motorists out there, and a light with a slower flash pattern set to flashing mode makes a cyclist more noticeable and isn't as likely to cause seizures or annoy people as much as the flashing mode of the NiteRider lights.


----------



## ecub

I've never been stopped, yet, but I do use 2 lights; solid on the handlebar (Cygolight 480) and flashing on my helmet (Cygolight Expillion 300). I usually aim the helmet light towards cars at intersections, so they know I'm approaching. With it being on the helmet, I can easily aim it away from them, so as not to annoy them. On coming vehicles, including police, have slowed down when they come close to me. I haven't had any of them, including police, warn me.


----------



## Lije Baley

CA Vehicle Code §21201 (d) & ((e) set out the light requirements for riding a bicylcle in hours of darkness in California:
"(d) A bicycle operated during darkness upon a highway, a sidewalk where bicycle operation is not prohibited by the local jurisdiction, or a bikeway, as defined in Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways Code, shall be equipped with all of the following: 

(1) A lamp emitting a white light that, while the bicycle is in motion, illuminates the highway, sidewalk, or bikeway in front of the bicyclist and is visible from a distance of 300 feet in front and from the sides of the bicycle. 

(2) A red reflector on the rear that shall be visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful upper beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle. 

(3) A white or yellow reflector on each pedal, shoe, or ankle visible from the front and rear of the bicycle from a distance of 200 feet. 

(4) A white or yellow reflector on each side forward of the center of the bicycle, and a white or red reflector on each side to the rear of the center of the bicycle, except that bicycles that are equipped with reflectorized tires on the front and the rear need not be equipped with these side reflectors. 

(e) A lamp or lamp combination, emitting a white light, attached to the operator and visible from a distance of 300 feet in front and from the sides of the bicycle, may be used in lieu of the lamp required by paragraph (1) of subdivision (d)."

A flashing strobe probably does not "illuminate" the highway, as required. I haven't researched the case law, however. Interestingly, I don't think the pedal/shoe/ankle and side reflector requirements are often enforced. How many of us have reflective wheels or "spoke" reflectors?


----------



## DaFlake

freighttraininguphill said:


> That is what worries me. Because the lights are getting more and more powerful, I'm afraid that existing motor vehicle laws will be enforced against cyclists. Either that, or new anti-flashing light laws will be written that specifically mention flashing lights on _bicycles_. It's a shame, because there are too many oblivious motorists out there, and a light with a slower flash pattern set to flashing mode makes a cyclist more noticeable and isn't as likely to cause seizures or annoy people as much as the flashing mode of the NiteRider lights.


I doubt they will really enforce it unless the officer is just having a really bad night and is looking to make a point. Bottom line really is that we, as cyclists, have to be vigilant and make sure we are pointing these brighter lamps down properly so as not to blind oncoming traffic. 

I was also wondering what affect these lights might have on a person that get seizures? I would hate to cause someone to have one while they are driving resulting in an accident.

Either way, I think that the officer was just blinded and trying to calmly let you know that it was bothering him.


----------



## freighttraininguphill

Lije Baley said:


> A flashing strobe probably does not "illuminate" the highway, as required. I haven't researched the case law, however. Interestingly, I don't think the pedal/shoe/ankle and side reflector requirements are often enforced. How many of us have reflective wheels or "spoke" reflectors?


His light does illuminate the road in front of him, even on flash mode.

I have reflectors on all bikes that are ridden after dark, including the one I was riding last night. The officer never said a word to me.


----------



## Rhymenocerus

Im glad the police officer took the time to take care of such an urgent issue of illegal bike lights. We live in a goddamn nanny state.


----------



## ecub

freighttraininguphill said:


> His light does illuminate the road in front of him, even on flash mode.
> 
> I have reflectors on all bikes that are ridden after dark, including the one I was riding last night. The officer never said a word to me.


A flashing light only illuminates the road intermittently


----------



## 4Crawler

Another vote for steady lights:
- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sfrandon/YrgcreJHikg/UGPQ0khCFl8J

One o my bikes has lights with only on and off modes, so no issue there. My other bikes share a light with hi/lo/flash modes and I'll often run the flash mode when on well lit streets where I don't need the light to see. In darker areas, I'll usually turn it on steady for the added visibility. Never been hassled either way, but I guess it is one of those "good excuse to pull you over" issues.


----------



## jmorgan

Flashing lights for some people, drivers or other cyclists (I ride with one) can cause seizures. Be careful.


----------



## freighttraininguphill

jmorgan said:


> Flashing lights for some people, drivers or other cyclists (I ride with one) can cause seizures. Be careful.


I think this is especially true with lights that have a fast flash pattern like the NiteRiders. I have never liked the flash pattern on those because it bothers people more. Slower flash patterns are better.


----------



## BikesOfALesserGod

Could they not find an actual crime to stop? It's Sac Town after all. All they have to do is hang out inside the State Capitol.


----------



## freighttraininguphill

Last night I was riding around the neighborhood on a different bike with the same lighting setup as I had on my hybrid the night my friend was contacted by the Sac PD officer (a Dinotte 200L and two Cateye HL-EL130s, all set to blink mode). One guy out of a group of young men on the sidewalk made a remark about "seizures". When I turned my head to look at them one of them made a raspberry sound (real mature !). 

None of those lights have a fast, seizure-inducing flash pattern. Nonetheless, I decided to put my Dinotte in medium-steady mode and leave the Cateyes on flash. It doesn't light up the road as well as my preferred flashing mode though. If I use high my battery life will suck. Maybe it's time to buy a new light?

Here's video of the setup on my hybrid, recorded on the same road we were on when my friend had the conversation with the officer. I recorded this the night after. The video shows all three available flash patterns with and without the two Cateyes on. The last part shows how my preferred flash mode lights up the road.

I originally had this on my YouTube channel, but immediately the self-righteous safety nanny anti-flashing light crowd started in, so I took it down. I had to upload it with ratings disabled because of those types. Same thing with the video in my OP. The whining on that video got so bad that I even had to disable comments (that video is still up on YouTube though). I got tired of reading all the comments insulting me and my friend when I had done my best to let people know that yes, we learned that his light is too bright and the flash pattern is too fast for nighttime use.

Why are some cyclists so self-righteous and divisive? I really think that it is in our best interests to stick together as a group. I admitted that it was a mistake for my friend to use his light in flashing mode at night. There was no need for keyboard commandos to crucify him.





 Dinotte 200L bicycle headlight flash patterns from freighttraininguphill on Vimeo.


----------



## Lije Baley

BikesOfALesserGod said:


> Could they not find an actual crime to stop? It's Sac Town after all. All they have to do is hang out inside the State Capitol.


WTF are you talking about??? Officer on patrol spots a cyclist riding at night without a steady white light (as required by statute), using instead a flasher that can cause night blindness to an oncoming driver. Officer tells cyclist the light is too bright and he needs a solid light. No citation, no further discussion. It's what cops do, use discretion. BtW, that was an "actual crime." The officer was politely trying to correct the cylcist's behavior, rather than cite him, I would guess, because the officer is also more interested in preventing, or reacting to, serious crime.


----------



## BikesOfALesserGod

Lije Baley said:


> WTF are you talking about??? Officer on patrol spots a cyclist riding at night without a steady white light (as required by statute), using instead a flasher that can cause night blindness to an oncoming driver. Officer tells cyclist the light is too bright and he needs a solid light. No citation, no further discussion. It's what cops do, use discretion. BtW, that was an "actual crime." The officer was politely trying to correct the cylcist's behavior, rather than cite him, I would guess, because the officer is also more interested in preventing, or reacting to, serious crime.


A puny LED flasher in a road full of HID and halogen headlamps can dazzle drivers. Yes sure. Safety Nanny state indeed.


----------



## Lije Baley

BikesOfALesserGod said:


> A puny LED flasher in a road full of HID and halogen headlamps can dazzle drivers. Yes sure. Safety Nanny state indeed.


Puny flasher? Check the video.

And remember, all the cop ("nanny state?") said was the light was illegal, too bright, take care of it,


----------



## BikesOfALesserGod

Lije Baley said:


> Puny flasher? Check the video.
> 
> And remember, all the cop ("nanny state?") said was the light was illegal, too bright, take care of it,


I guess, if I STARED at it it might dazzle me but then again I don't stare at oncoming lights when I am on the road.

The fact that local and state level officials have enough time in their hands to come up with and pass silly laws like this (which presumably, are meant to protect easily dazzled folks like you) is proof that the cops only need to hang out in the State Capitol to actually come across some real crimes.


----------



## DaFlake

BikesOfALesserGod said:


> I guess, if I STARED at it it might dazzle me but then again I don't stare at oncoming lights when I am on the road.
> 
> The fact that local and state level officials have enough time in their hands to come up with and pass silly laws like this (which presumably, are meant to protect easily dazzled folks like you) is proof that the cops only need to hang out in the State Capitol to actually come across some real crimes.


Really? Just because your eyes are not sensitive to light doesn't mean that others aren't. My eyes are very sensitive to dark and I can see exceptionally well at night. Those lights do cause me temporary blindness as do the illegal xenons that are on the road. It has gotten so bad in my area that I have taken to wearing a light pair of sunglasses to kill the glare. 

Life would be pretty boring if we were all alike eh? 

Also, the cop did the right thing. Before you piss and moan about them doing their job, feel free to sign up and put your life on the line on a nightly basis.


----------



## Local Hero

freighttraininguphill said:


> I went on a night ride with a friend who has a NiteRider MiNewt Cordless 350. Maybe we're doing something wrong, or the handlebar mount the light comes with is crap, because we can't get it cinched down enough to prevent the light from moving even during normal road riding at lower speeds.
> 
> He likes to use flash mode for the same reason I do. Motorists tend to notice you more with a flashing light. Unfortunately, the MiNewt's flash mode is referred to as "daylight flash mode" in the owner's manual, and for good reason. The flash pattern is too fast for night use. It has a strobe effect like an emergency vehicle Opticom system, so it can be much more annoying to someone than a light with a slower flash pattern. I used to use two older MiNewt lights with the same flash pattern, but stopped using them after complaints from passing cyclists, pedestrians, and motorists (no cops though, I must have been lucky!).
> 
> Well, the light must have moved out of position yet again, because a Sacramento PD officer stopped at a flashing yellow traffic light to watch us approach (which immediately raised a red flag with me, so pardon my NSFW words as I talk to my friend). He said "Where you guys going?", then when my friend rode over to his car he told him his light was blinding and too bright, as well as illegal. He had his GoPro on his handlebars, so the entire incident was captured on video.
> 
> Cop says friend's flashing bicycle headlight is illegal - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cop never said anything to me. I had three headlights that were all on flash mode, but they have slower flash patterns (two Cateye HL-EL130s and a Dinotte 200L).
> 
> The moral of the story? Make sure your lights are aimed properly, especially if you have a light with a fast flash pattern like the NiteRiders. I think the cop is wrong for telling my friend it's illegal to have a flashing light, but I'm almost 100% positive that he wouldn't have bothered my friend at all if his light was properly aimed or in steady burn mode.


First off, that cop was pretty damned cool. In the eyes of hardass cops he may have come across as too casual but I like his style. I would be happy if more police interactions went that way. 

Next, I'm a California attorney. I'd like to do some research on this. Maybe I can write a blog on bicycle lights. If I write something up, do you mind if I use your video?


----------



## freighttraininguphill

Local Hero said:


> First off, that cop was pretty damned cool. In the eyes of hardass cops he may have come across as too casual but I like his style. I would be happy if more police interactions went that way.
> 
> Next, I'm a California attorney. I'd like to do some research on this. Maybe I can write a blog on bicycle lights. If I write something up, do you mind if I use your video?


I don't really have a problem with how he handled it either, except for the part about the light being illegal. There's still confusion on that issue, as the CVC only mentions that cyclists need a white light that lights up the road, not that it has to be steady burn.

Now, I could see how the light being pointed up too high could be considered illegal, kind of like a car driving around with the brights on and blinding oncoming traffic. That is illegal.

There is a section of the CVC that mentions a flashing light that is prohibited on a bike-a blue light. It specifically mentions that you can't have a blue light that is flashing _or_ steady.

21201.3.(b) No person shall display a steady or *flashing* *blue* *warning* *light* on a *bicycle* or motorized *bicycle* except as authorized under subdivision (a).

Source: V C Section 21201.3 Bicycle Lights

You are welcome to use any of the videos that I've posted in this thread.


----------



## Rogus

freighttraininguphill said:


> I went on a night ride with a friend who has a NiteRider MiNewt Cordless 350. Maybe we're doing something wrong, or the handlebar mount the light comes with is crap, because we can't get it cinched down enough to prevent the light from moving even during normal road riding at lower speeds.


Worst mounting bracket of any light I've tried is on the NiteRider Minewt 600 I had. I returned it as I never could get it to hold in place.


----------



## Local Hero

freighttraininguphill said:


> I don't really have a problem with how he handled it either, except for the part about the light being illegal. There's still confusion on that issue, as the CVC only mentions that cyclists need a white light that lights up the road, not that it has to be steady burn.
> 
> Now, I could see how the light being pointed up too high could be considered illegal, kind of like a car driving around with the brights on and blinding oncoming traffic. That is illegal.
> 
> There is a section of the CVC that mentions a flashing light that is prohibited on a bike-a blue light. It specifically mentions that you can't have a blue light that is flashing _or_ steady.
> 
> 21201.3.(b) No person shall display a steady or *flashing* *blue* *warning* *light* on a *bicycle* or motorized *bicycle* except as authorized under subdivision (a).
> 
> Source: WAIS Document Retrieval
> 
> You are welcome to use any of the videos that I've posted in this thread.


Thanks!

I don't know if it is illegal; I haven't had a chance to do anything but superficial research. I'll write up the blog (hopefully this week) and post it in this thread.


----------



## Guest

As a practical matter for cyclists If you only have one forward facing light at night, IMO it should be a solid-on light. Keep bright flashers for daytime use (similar in principle to a motorcyclist riding w/ high beams on) 

As a driver it's MUCH easier to judge the position and speed of a cyclist with a constantly on light compared to a flasher. Solid on light with an auxiliary flasher is the best bet. 

If it's a very bright light (several hundred lumens) it should be aimed mostly below the horizon. Problem is I don't actually konw of any recent commercial bike lights that are properly designed to have shaped beams (similar to car headlights). Most bike lights are just high power LEDs in parabolic reflectors w/ circularly symmetric beams. This creates a dilemma:

A) Aim the light basically parallel to the road and throw almost half their light above the horizon and into drivers eyes, 
or B) aim the light down and throw most of the light into a bright "spot" just in front of the bike, while underilluminating the roadway ahead and creating glare for the cyclist himsefl. 

I actually use a flashlight w/ custom optics to crudely approximate a headlight pattern on the handlebars, and a flashing light w/ diffuser (visible from all directions) on the helmet to get noticed. For taillight I bounce a high power red LED aimed into a narrow beam off a textured reflector under my saddle. This produces something visibly identical or a car or motorcycle taillight from a distance (bright but not glaring). 



freighttraininguphill said:


> That is what worries me. Because the lights are getting more and more powerful, I'm afraid that existing motor vehicle laws will be enforced against cyclists. Either that, or new anti-flashing light laws will be written that specifically mention flashing lights on _bicycles_. It's a shame, because there are too many oblivious motorists out there, and a light with a slower flash pattern set to flashing mode makes a cyclist more noticeable and isn't as likely to cause seizures or annoy people as much as the flashing mode of the NiteRider lights.


Car and Motorcycle headlights have very detailed engineering regulation that stipulate how intense the light can be, with allowable ranges on how much power can be directed in a particualr direction -- particularly how much light can be directed above horizontal. Direct line-of-sight to the bright filament, arc lamp, or LED emitter is also prohibited for low-beams. Street-legal HID lamps are even required to be self-leveling so that the beam doesn't "walk" above the horizon and dazzle people. 

A typical modern bike light consisting of high power LED driven at full power inside a simple parabolic reflector (like the one in the video) completely blows past the DOT specs and would in fact be illegal on a motorcycle, car -- just as it's illegal to drive around with high beams on continuously w/ nearby traffic.

Unfortunately designing modern car headlamp is extremely complicated, often employing multiple optical engineers (like me) it would be unreasonable and practically impossible extend that to bike lights.

That said, I'd rather see the manufacturers of high-brightness bike lights voluntarily make lights that are shaped similar to headlights -- shaped and emitting mostly diffuse light above the horizon. They don't need to go all out and try to make DOT-spec bike lights, but if some of the most ridiculous "arc welder on wheels" lights become very widespread we might see reactionary legislation on the matter.


----------



## freighttraininguphill

Good points, PhotonFreak .

I seem to be getting decent battery life with my Dinotte on medium-steady, which is good. I have good night vision, so as long as I aim the light so it lights up the road enough to see any hazards, it's good enough for me. I would like a brighter light, but the Dinotte still works well so I'll resist the temptation to go get a different light.

The Cateyes are on flash and aimed slightly to the right and left to make me more visible to cross traffic at intersections. This is similar to the 45-degree angle red warning lights on current CHP cruisers. They are mounted to the vertical part of the push bumper to make the car more visible to cross traffic when the officer is rolling code.


----------



## Ktmdriver

DaFlake said:


> I doubt they will really enforce it unless the officer is just having a really bad night and is looking to make a point. Bottom line really is that we, as cyclists, have to be vigilant and make sure we are pointing these brighter lamps down properly so as not to blind oncoming traffic.
> 
> I was also wondering what affect these lights might have on a person that get seizures? I would hate to cause someone to have one while they are driving resulting in an accident.
> 
> Either way, I think that the officer was just blinded and trying to calmly let you know that it was bothering him.


Why does the cop always have to have a "bad night" to write tickets ? I don't have a quota, but when I write tickets, I'm usually having a good day. If I'm having a "bad day" I try to stay away from the public .


----------



## S.humrich

California vehicle code



21200 (a) bicycle on highway: person riding has same rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division, except provisions, by their very nature, that have no application. Includes, but not limited to, laws dealing with DUI, accident reporting, wearing headsets or earplugs, bike licensing, and penalties. 

25250 Flashing lights prohibited except as permitted. (See 25251)

21251 (a) Flashing lights allowed: (1) to signel an intended turn (2) when disabled or parked within 10 ft. of a roadway,or approaching, stopping, or departing a railroad crossing (3) to warn od a hazard or accident on roadway (4) on authorized emergency vehicles (5) when in a funeral procession. 

25251.2 Motorcycle headlamp: modulating lamp allowed except during darkness. 

Maybe this will help clear up the question.


----------



## DaFlake

Ktmdriver said:


> Why does the cop always have to have a "bad night" to write tickets ? I don't have a quota, but when I write tickets, I'm usually having a good day. If I'm having a "bad day" I try to stay away from the public .


Let's not be too literal here. I was simply saying that it was not something that a police officer would make a huge deal out of, that is all. There are people that will go out of their way to make others lives miserable when they are having a miserable time. Police officers are human and having worked with several in the past, I have been privy to some of the stories. 

I glad that you keep your anger in check, many people don't have that insight.


----------



## JasonLopez

RichieB313 said:


> I'm going to disagree with the ''politely trying to correct''. He was not very polite. Compared to other cops I suppose he's polite because he didn't "tase you bro", but in the grand scheme of the world, that wasn't very polite.


This.

Also, if all the cop can find to do at night is bother a cyclist about a light then society must not be causing too much trouble for him to be dealing with. So all in all, cops with nothing better to do than bother us is just an indication of how good things really are.


----------



## Mayers89

agreed.....


----------



## JasonLopez

"21251 (a) Flashing lights allowed: (1) to signel an intended turn (2) when disabled or parked within 10 ft. of a roadway,or approaching, stopping, or departing a railroad crossing *(3) to warn of a hazard on roadway *(4) on authorized emergency vehicles (5) when in a funeral procession. "

So it's legal?


----------



## King Arthur

freighttraininguphill said:


> I went on a night ride with a friend who has a NiteRider MiNewt Cordless 350. Maybe we're doing something wrong, or the handlebar mount the light comes with is crap, because we can't get it cinched down enough to prevent the light from moving even during normal road riding at lower speeds.
> 
> He likes to use flash mode for the same reason I do. Motorists tend to notice you more with a flashing light. Unfortunately, the MiNewt's flash mode is referred to as "daylight flash mode" in the owner's manual, and for good reason. The flash pattern is too fast for night use. It has a strobe effect like an emergency vehicle Opticom system, so it can be much more annoying to someone than a light with a slower flash pattern. I used to use two older MiNewt lights with the same flash pattern, but stopped using them after complaints from passing cyclists, pedestrians, and motorists (no cops though, I must have been lucky!).
> 
> Well, the light must have moved out of position yet again, because a Sacramento PD officer stopped at a flashing yellow traffic light to watch us approach (which immediately raised a red flag with me, so pardon my NSFW words as I talk to my friend). He said "Where you guys going?", then when my friend rode over to his car he told him his light was blinding and too bright, as well as illegal. He had his GoPro on his handlebars, so the entire incident was captured on video.
> 
> Cop says friend's flashing bicycle headlight is illegal - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cop never said anything to me. I had three headlights that were all on flash mode, but they have slower flash patterns (two Cateye HL-EL130s and a Dinotte 200L).
> 
> The moral of the story? Make sure your lights are aimed properly, especially if you have a light with a fast flash pattern like the NiteRiders. I think the cop is wrong for telling my friend it's illegal to have a flashing light, but I'm almost 100% positive that he wouldn't have bothered my friend at all if his light was properly aimed or in steady burn mode.


Many motorcycle lights will strobe or wave. These are designed deliberately to get a driver's attention. Seems like a cop not knowing the law, but making it up as they go along.


----------



## S.humrich

JasonLopez said:


> "21251 (a) Flashing lights allowed: (1) to signel an intended turn (2) when disabled or parked within 10 ft. of a roadway,or approaching, stopping, or departing a railroad crossing *(3) to warn of a hazard on roadway *(4) on authorized emergency vehicles (5) when in a funeral procession. "
> 
> So it's legal?


I say it's not legal but who knows it may depend on the cops interpretation. I don't see people getting a ticket for this.


----------



## DaFlake

King Arthur said:


> Many motorcycle lights will strobe or wave. These are designed deliberately to get a driver's attention. Seems like a cop not knowing the law, but making it up as they go along.



Then you didn't read this thread or the law in California.

25251.2 Motorcycle headlamp: modulating lamp allowed except during darkness. 

Looks like the cop does know the law...


----------



## JasonLopez

DaFlake said:


> Then you didn't read this thread or the law in California.
> 
> 25251.2 Motorcycle headlamp: modulating lamp allowed except during darkness.
> 
> Looks like the cop does know the law...


Bicycle does not equal motorcycle.

Both are vehicles but I'm almost positive the individual sections are mutually exclusive when referenced as a motorcycle, car, or HPV.

I made the point that flashing lights are allowed on a 'hazard' on the road way.

*Get the ticked, take it to court, and argue that a slow moving vehicle is a hazard (It is).* Use "21251 (a) Flashing lights allowed: (3) to warn of a hazard on roadway." Even if the judge scolds you and disagrees it will most likely be thrown out if you handle it appropriately. You're not trying to blind the police, you're trying not to get hit by a vehicle and possibly die by not being seen. What would the police do to someone without lights (nothing)?

I've seen someone argue that he stopped to get out of a california stop ticket by throwing a ball in the air and asking the judge to tell him exactly when it was motionless. Judge chewed his ass out and threw the ticket out as well. : P

We have strobes on all of our heavy equipment that can be used on the road and we strobe them day or night with the hazard plaques if we are even near a public road way.


----------



## DaFlake

JasonLopez said:


> Bicycle does not equal motorcycle.
> 
> Both are vehicles but I'm almost positive the individual sections are mutually exclusive when referenced as a motorcycle, car, or HPV.
> 
> I made the point that flashing lights are allowed on a 'hazard' on the road way.
> 
> *Get the ticked, take it to court, and argue that a slow moving vehicle is a hazard (It is).* Use "21251 (a) Flashing lights allowed: (3) to warn of a hazard on roadway." Even if the judge scolds you and disagrees it will most likely be thrown out if you handle it appropriately. You're not trying to blind the police, you're trying not to get hit by a vehicle and possibly die by not being seen. What would the police do to someone without lights (nothing)?
> 
> I've seen someone argue that he stopped to get out of a california stop ticket by throwing a ball in the air and asking the judge to tell him exactly when it was motionless. Judge chewed his ass out and threw the ticket out as well. : P
> 
> We have strobes on all of our heavy equipment that can be used on the road and we strobe them day or night with the hazard plaques if we are even near a public road way.


Did you also not read the thread? The person that I was quoting stated *MOTORCYCLE*. I wasn't responding to the bicycle comment, only the motorcycle comment. However, I can see how you might think I was talking about bicycles. 

You are considered a vehicle when on the road. There may not be a specific item saying bicycle, but there are laws that state that flashing whites is a no-no in most states. So, you could try to argue it if you were to get a ticket, but I am thinking that you would most likely lose. 

As for the blinding position, if you read the rest of the thread you will also see that I, like many others, have sensitive night vision. Those blinking lights do cause some temporary blindness when driving as I have had it happen. I'm not saying that it is a bad thing, I am only saying that "we" as cyclists should take that into consideration and make sure that our lights are pointed correctly to avoid causing blindness.

Blink or no blink, I don't care. Whether the officer was right or wrong is pointless to be honest. He is an authority that is saying to turn it off, so you do it. If you think that he was wrong, you contact station and get the ruling and if you are told it is OK, then you go about your business. The rider did the right thing and simply didn't challenge it. 

As for your flashing light quote, you need to further read into it and you will find that it is pretty specific about what colors can blink and where they are to be located on the vehicle. You have to read the whole rule, not pluck out the parts you want.


----------



## S.humrich

It seems like even if the law is written down in black and white some will try to interpret it to benefit them. 

So lets say your bike is considered a hazard in the roadway and you are able to use your strobe. Don't you think you would run the risk of being ticketed for impeding traffic. And if you say I'm not impeding I'm in the bike lane, then your hazard idea doesn't work because your not in the roadway. 

As far as moving equipment with strobes and hazard plaques, just because you don't get stopped doesn't make it legal. Most if not all police officers understand that the equipment needs to be moved but they also know it may not have headlights, brake lights , turn signels or a registration to be on the road. 

It really baffles me that a police officer can educate someone instead of giving them a ticket and people will still be upset.


----------



## ecub

BeetleBailey said:


> The law is clear. Proceed at your own peril.
> 
> Try this. Try it once.
> 
> Put your self in another person's position. Not the cop's. Another driver.
> 
> A mom in an SUV. A FLASHING STROBE light is a major distraction at night. Can't anyone understand this ? The law is to protect the public. Just get a beeping stay on light. Don't strobe anyone. You may eventually cause a serious accident. Or, you may get run over and smooshed.
> 
> Judge Judy would lash you for this non-sense.:mad2:



I AGREE!!!


I know we ALL want to be seen at night. But how would we feel if our light(s) blinded or even caused the driver a seizure that caused them to crash and cause serious injury to them or someone else?


----------



## Rogus

ecub said:


> I know we ALL want to be seen at night. But how would we feel if our light(s) blinded or even caused the driver a seizure that caused them to crash and cause serious injury to them or someone else?


Not taking a side one way or another, but just wondering:

Has anyone ever heard of any accident caused by someone in a vehicle affected by a flashing light on a bike?

We keep talking about a flashing front light, but according to the CVC cited it appears a flashing (red) rear light is also not permitted?


----------



## freighttraininguphill

Looks like my friend took my advice, as he showed up at a local restaurant with his NiteRider in steady mode. He told me he's been using it on low and is satisfied with the light output.

I charged up the newer (but still old), more powerful NiteRider MiNewt that I had laying around. It only has two steady modes instead of three like my friend's MiNewt Cordless 350, but they both do a good job of lighting up the road. I don't know how many lumens this light is. It's definitely not as bright as the Cordless 350.


----------



## uncreative

tell your friend to email niterider about the mount. i have the same light with the same problem, emailed niterider, and they sent me a mount that works (cinches down with a thumbscrew) no charge.


----------



## freighttraininguphill

uncreative said:


> tell your friend to email niterider about the mount. i have the same light with the same problem, emailed niterider, and they sent me a mount that works (cinches down with a thumbscrew) no charge.


Thanks! I'll do that.


----------



## codex57

If you're in Sacramento, dealing with Sac PD (clearly a pecking order in *general* terms of politeness, knowing the law, etc with Sac PD being at the bottom) and the traffic judges in the county (they're commissioners, not real judges), play it safe. Traffic court isn't like "real" court. For one thing, these are infractions we're talking about so they don't play by the full criminal court rules. More civil, but not even at that level. A tiny step higher than a kangaroo court, meaning that really it's judges discretion and good chance of getting an appeal through if it goes against you.

So, just play it safe and try not to attract too much attention. And yes, I don't think that fast strobe light effect is a good idea but you're prolly safe with the "normal" slower flashes.


----------



## MercRidnMike

I know that some jurisdictions ban flashing front lights except by emergency vehicles...but the application of the same can be much different. 

Personally, if I am using a more powerful light, it stays on solid and a lower setting, but I will run one of the little LED flashers on the underside and opposite side of the bar from my main light while riding on road. The flash seems to be noticed a bit more, but isn't blinding enough to draw attention from the local police. YMMV.


----------



## freighttraininguphill

I don't think my friend has been cycling lately. He is morbidly obese and uses the bicycle for weight loss purposes. It was working very well for that during the summer, but now that it's chilly at night I have a feeling he's been going to the gym. If he is still cycling, I hope he's still running the NiteRider on solid.

I just bought a Lezyne Powerdrive 300 lumen headlight to supplement the Dinotte 200L. I run both of those on solid and the two lower-powered Cateye HL-EL130s on flash. The Cateyes are at a 45 degree angle facing left and right to make me more visible to cross traffic.

This light combination seems to work very well so far. No complaints from anyone yet, and drivers seem to notice me more.

The Lezyne has a very nice flash mode that I use at dusk, before it gets completely dark out. It only flashes a couple times a second, which is about as fast as the front red LED flashers on a CHP patrol car.


----------



## bmach

I guess it is safe to say that this cyclist was at least seen while riding his bike!!


----------

