# If you didnt think Lance doped



## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

You will now. Got this from Daily Peloton Forum. A tape of Greg Lemond and Lances friend from Oakley sunglasses. Lance is very very dirty, Greg is a liar, George Hincapie does a lot of drugs. 

http://www.4shared.com/file/24532391/fe77b775/gregstef.html


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

ugh. that's a very uncomfortable exchange. I can't listen to anymore of it, what did they say about George?


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

blackhat said:


> ugh. that's a very uncomfortable exchange. I can't listen to anymore of it, what did they say about George?


you downloaded that? I hope you have a good virus/spyware software.

//what'd it say?


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> you downloaded that? I hope you have a good virus/spyware software.
> 
> //what'd it say?


onto a legacy mac, nobody writes malware for 10.2. I don't know what it said. the first part was lemond whining about his dad, I skipped ahead and heard a bit about the "bedside confession" LA made but couldn't take any more. the conversation is <i>incredibly</i> uncomfortable.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

some highlights
-She says "I was in that room, I heard it"
-both say "why don't the riders come out?" Scared of retribution
-they are not too nice to Hincapi or livingston.
-Steph admits at first she said she was not there so nobody would bother her
-she seems concerned about her Autistic son.. Concern she may loose her job and health care
-Stephan certainly does not like Lance or Sharyl crow
- steph say lance has not seen his kids for months
-both Greg and Stephanie do not come off well. Greg sounds very bitter and full of him self.
-As many times as she say she will not lie, once it came down to it she did.

The first time I listen I thought Greg came off as a jerk, but then after I listened to again perhaps I could understand his position a bit better. He sounds like he was backed against a wall over Lance/Trek and his business, stressed over his marital issues. 

It sounds like two people talking about somebody they utterly despise, and who has tried to ruin their lives


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

What is the context?


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

blackhat said:


> ugh. that's a very uncomfortable exchange. I can't listen to anymore of it, what did they say about George?


I agree it is very uncomfortable. She said she hoped Georges son would be born ok after all the drugs he took. She also talked of Lances best friend upset about Lance doping to win.


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*interview*



bigpinkt said:


> some highlights
> -She says "I was in that room, I heard it"
> -both say "why don't the riders come out?" Scared of retribution
> -they are not too nice to Hincapi or livingston.
> ...


who is steph/she?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

steel515 said:


> who is steph/she?


I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong (and I haven't listened to the tape) but... 

It sounds like this is the infamous taped conversation that Lemond has always claimed to have between himself and Stephanie _____?_____, who was an Oakley rep who was also in the hospital room when Betsy Andreau claims Armstrong reported his doping to the doctor.

I believe she then lied under oath in the deposition like the others...


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Dwayne, I haven't listened, but that's my understanding as well. The gist was that she didn't want to say she was there because someone had told her that she would be hurting Oakley and be fired (as would her husband who also worked there).

This was discussed in that Betsy Andreu interview posted sometime last week. Betsy was also friends with Stephanie and was really pissed about the position Stephanie was put in.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Stephanie McIlvain


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

She is Stephanie McIlvain. Lance's Oakley contact and long time friend. If you listen to the recording its obvious that she was very involved in Lances life.


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## ethebull (May 30, 2007)

As much as anything, I'm curious who taped the conversation. Steph asks early on as the topics become inflammatory, " You're not taping this are you?" and LeMond says "No!" 

Credibility cannot be restored after that as far as I am concerned.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

ethebull said:


> As much as anything, I'm curious who taped the conversation. Steph asks early on as the topics become inflammatory, " You're not taping this are you?" and LeMond says "No!"
> 
> Credibility cannot be restored after that as far as I am concerned.


Lemond taped it but Steph provides the "damning" information. I'm pretty sure there is someone else out there who has come forward that Steph also told him/her about the conversation before the court case, etc.

Not to mention this story of the hospital room "confession" was out there long before the court case and it got into the media, so clearly lots of people heard it thru the grapevine.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

snood said:


> She is Stephanie McIlvain. Lance's Oakley contact and long time friend. If you listen to the recording its obvious that she was very involved in Lances life.


She worked for him for 12 years

Yes, this story has been around for years and Stephanie McIlvain or Lisa Shiels, Lance ex, were often linked as a source


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

*Watch out for that link*



Bocephus Jones II said:


> you downloaded that? I hope you have a good virus/spyware software.
> 
> //what'd it say?



I would be very careful with that link. Something was knocking on my system. It could have been that link or something else.

Ken


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

*Warning #2*

Beware, that link was posted on daily peloton by a new user as her first post.

Ken


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

KenS said:


> I would be very careful with that link. Something was knocking on my system. It could have been that link or something else.
> 
> Ken


I don't open that kind of thing out of routine caution. That site had spyware written all over it.


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## ethebull (May 30, 2007)

*don't download, just hit "Play"*



Bocephus Jones II said:


> I don't open that kind of thing out of routine caution. That site had spyware written all over it.


No problems hitting play.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

*get a mac?*



KenS said:


> I would be very careful with that link. Something was knocking on my system. It could have been that link or something else.
> 
> Ken



clamXav couldn't find anything in the mp3 file and macscan didn't find any new friends in my user directory.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

blackhat said:


> clamXav couldn't find anything in the mp3 file and macscan didn't find any new friends in my user directory.


the file is safe, but if I was a Lance fan I would tell everyone not to download it


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## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

ethebull said:


> No problems hitting play.


I think if you download the file, your computer user information is directly sent to Lance's lawyers!

I thought the last few minutes of the conversation were oddly spliced and sped up to the point that you can't tell if it is Lemond anymore. Makes the recording seem sketchy. I'm sure Stephanie isn't too happy with Lemond for lying to her either.


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## Slartibartfast (Jul 22, 2007)

I had already concluded Lance doped. Hincapie too, as soon as he morphed from a roller to a good enough climber to truly help Lance in the mountains. ...Wondered why there was never much speculation about George...

Always thought Greg was clean; still want him to be clean...


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2007)

Fascinating tape, although I must be honest...I feel quite uncomfortable listening to it...voyeuristic maybe...I wonder who taped and released it and why?

Lemond and Stephanie both sound like they loath Lance. I detect some anger with Stephanie regarding her 'relationship' with Lance, that goes beyond cycling/doping/business...she also sounds a little 'false' at times. Lemond does sound bitter yes, but he also seems honest in what he is saying to me, and they way he is saying it...that is my gut feeling. 

Lemond also sounds like he is someone who has been through alot...emotionally...personally speaking, and has had issues to deal with, and when they talk and Lance and his relationship to cancer victims/survivors it sounds very raw and emotional...it is quite effecting.


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## funktekk (Jul 29, 2006)

Can't listen to it because I am at work, but I am so sick of all this Lance bashing...

I think there comes a time to let the past be the past...

Did he dope... probably... did everyone else dope most likely. It seems to me that all were on a level playing field.

Now currently we are entering a new era of cycling a clean one and hopefully doped to the gills will not be the standard. 

I guess I give Lance a little bit of a break when it comes to this issue. I see all the good he has done off the bike. All the people he has given hope, all the money he has raised...

I just ask myself what is the end goal of all this muckraking. Is it to bring down a person people look to for inspiration? Is it discredit a person who has raised more money for cancer research than anyone else?

When I look at it that way I don't see the point in furthering this quest.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

funktekk said:


> Can't listen to it because I am at work, but I am so sick of all this Lance bashing...
> 
> I think there comes a time to let the past be the past...
> 
> ...



Funny, in the tape they talk about Lance hiding behind the cancer community. Their support has certainly allowed him to avoid the scrutiny a normal athlete would have had.

You should think for a moment of the many peoples careers and livelihoods Lance has gone out of his way to destroy. You should talk to Greg lemond and ask him what is was like to have the bike business he had built for almost 20 years come within inches of disappearing merely because he raised ligament questions about Lance's association with the worst doping doctor in the sport. 

You should talk to Betsy and Frankie Andreau about the avalanche of threats they received once they told the truth. Frankie can also tell you about how he lost his job just days after testifying.

You should talk to Emma about the frivolous lawsuits she was hit with when she told the truth...one has to wonder what kind of pressure was put on Stephanie to change her story.

The "everyone was doing it" excuse does not hold water. everyone was not doing it, and it effected everyone differently. It was in no way a level playing field 

The causes of the mess that cycling is currently in are multi fold. Certainly part of it can be traced to riders saw Lance, doping and winning everything, and lying and getting away with it.


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

This is more than Lance. Its the team. Its Lance and Landis and Heras and Basso and Contador and Hincapie and all of them. Johan will probably go to Astana with Levi and Contador. Johan should have no place in cycling unless he explains at least something like Riis and submits to testing program like CSC.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

snood said:


> You will now. Got this from Daily Peloton Forum. A tape of Greg Lemond and Lances friend from Oakley sunglasses. Lance is very very dirty, Greg is a liar, George Hincapie does a lot of drugs.
> 
> http://www.4shared.com/file/24532391/fe77b775/gregstef.html


this resolves to: http://www.errorsafe.com/pages/scanner/index.php?aid=shortyet&lid=intl&ax=1&ex=1&ed=2

and timesout for me at work. wTF


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

bas said:


> this resolves to: http://www.errorsafe.com/pages/scanner/index.php?aid=shortyet&lid=intl&ax=1&ex=1&ed=2
> 
> and timesout for me at work. wTF


now it went through?


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## cocoboots (Apr 13, 2006)

snood said:


> This is more than Lance. Its the team. Its Lance and Landis and Heras and Basso and Contador and Hincapie and all of them. Johan will probably go to Astana with Levi and Contador. Johan should have no place in cycling unless he explains at least something like Riis and submits to testing program like CSC.



+1.. you're spot on. :thumbsup: 

so many people focus just on Lance because of his "i never tested positive" statements.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

I'll preface this with the fact that I think Lance did dope...but in the end I don't really care.




bigpinkt said:


> You should think for a moment of the many peoples careers and livelihoods Lance has gone out of his way to destroy. You should talk to Greg lemond and ask him what is was like to have the bike business he had built for almost 20 years come within inches of disappearing merely because he raised ligament questions about Lance's association with the worst doping doctor in the sport.
> 
> You should talk to Betsy and Frankie Andreau about the avalanche of threats they received once they told the truth. Frankie can also tell you about how he lost his job just days after testifying.
> 
> You should talk to Emma about the frivolous lawsuits she was hit with when she told the truth...one has to wonder what kind of pressure was put on Stephanie to change her story.


So what? Is Lance the only guy who ever did something like that? It happens in every sport and every avenue of work. 

Heck, my wife has blackballed people from working in our town because they were hurting her livelihood. My wife knows a ton of people and let them know they should no longer hire these people for anything, nor should they refer to their studios because of what they were doing. In both occasions they were studios that had been built up over years and were basically put out of business after only a few months. They were hurting her ability to make money and spreading false rumors to benefit themselves and she took care of business.

I also personally know several people that had to change careers because they "went against the grain" in a certain field and no longer can find employment in that field because they were blackballed.

If you are going to try and take somebody's ability to work away with *"telling the truth"* or *"your version of it"* (there is always two sides to a story and the truth lies in the middle) then expect retaliation. It's the way the world works and if you don't like it....Tough luck :cryin: 

All of those guys were trying to take Lances ability to work and make money away from him...what did they expect to happen? What did you expect to happen? The reality is you protect your own and if you tell me you wouldn't do the same thing, you are lying through your teeth. :blush2: 



> The "everyone was doing it" excuse does not hold water. everyone was not doing it, and it effected everyone differently. It was in no way a level playing field


Do you know this for sure? Are you 100% positive that everybody wasn't doing it?* If your statement is true then prove it. *

Where is the evidence that not everybody was doping? No positive tests? Well, it's rather obvious that riders can hide their doping and go entire careers without getting caught, so that's not "Proof" or "Evidence" that everybody wasn't doing it. 

Looking at cycling as a whole, It would appear that teams had systematic doping regimes and everybody "Was" on something. Look at Festina, Astana, T-Mobile, etc...Multiple riders turning up positive off the same team, a lack of riders willing to break ranks against them, etc. The chances are much greater that everybody was doing it, than they are that only a few were doing it. 

Lemond obviously has an ax to grind with Lance and I'd be willing to bet he will do what ever it takes to expose him regardless of legality or not. At this time there is nothing to gain, but personal satisfaction by pursuing it and It's nothing but a personal vendetta to ruin Lance and all that he has done outside of the sport as well as his promotion of the sport while he was in it (cycling was never as big in the U.S. as it was when he was competing in the Tour)

On a side note:

I have little doubt in my mind that Lemond doped as well. All the riders around him were on something at the same time, yet he still was able to win. Was he just that much better than the rest of them?

My guess....He sticks with the: It wasn't on the "Banned" drug list so it wasn't doping even if it did give me a competitive advantage. 

The fact that they had no tests for it, that they were unaware of it and the doping controls were much less sophisticated at the time is irrelevant. What ever helps him sleep at night. At this time nobody can prove it and any evidence would be circumstantial, so he can come out and say anything he wants.


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## bikeboy389 (May 4, 2004)

bigpinkt said:


> Funny, in the tape they talk about Lance hiding behind the cancer community. Their support has certainly allowed him to avoid the scrutiny a normal athlete would have had.


Any "normal" athlete would just go on with their career and nothing bad would happen to them--little to no scrutiny. Oh, you're probably only talking about cycling, not OTHER sports, right?


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## lili (Aug 8, 2007)

hopefully safer link to the tape:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=4D29F43E55D1F580


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## funktekk (Jul 29, 2006)

Wookiebiker said:


> Lemond obviously has an ax to grind with Lance and I'd be willing to bet he will do what ever it takes to expose him regardless of legality or not. At this time there is nothing to gain, but personal satisfaction by pursuing it and It's nothing but a personal vendetta to ruin Lance and all that he has done outside of the sport as well as his promotion of the sport while he was in it (cycling was never as big in the U.S. as it was when he was competing in the Tour)



Your post is exactly what I was getting at!

So what is Lemond's deal? I mean why is he the crusader of clean cycling? Why does he keep going after Armstrong? The more persistent he gets the more I find myself questioning his motivation.


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

funktekk said:


> Your post is exactly what I was getting at!
> 
> So what is Lemond's deal? I mean why is he the crusader of clean cycling? Why does he keep going after Armstrong? The more persistent he gets the more I find myself questioning his motivation.


Believe me, Greg was a huge fan of Lance and really believed in him when Lance won first few Tour De Frances. But Greg felt betrayed when the Ferrari link came out. Greg was told by Dr. Yvan Van Mol in the early 1990s the only way he could keep up was to go to Ferrari. He said no. Greg also had a friend die from EPO. 

When Greg spoke badly about Lance and Ferrari he was attacked by Lance and had his business threatened. The crumbling of cycling the last few years has made Greg speak strongly about the sport he loves.

Greg is not perfect, not even close. But he has strong reasons for what he does.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2007)

funktekk said:


> I guess I give Lance a little bit of a break when it comes to this issue. I see all the good he has done off the bike. All the people he has given hope, all the money he has raised...


Hope built on a lie...a deception?

Lance hiding behind the Cancer victims...threatening anyone who looks like exposing him...making money from his business interests...the Chris Carmichael 'coach' pantomime BS - a total lie. I read one of his books recently about training Lance and I feel ashamed to read it...it make me feel bad for cycling because it is a LIE, and it shows a contempt for cycling fans and the public in general, total cynicism: invent a BS rationalization of Lances post '99 performances based on exaggerated weight loss, high cadence, and climbing style, and aero testing, and 'training hard' (everyone else is lazy?!)...conveniently forget to include the doping program, in short create a sellable myth = sell books = $

If doping is 'no big deal' (as you seem to be implying) why does Lance not just come clean like Riis? After all 'everyone' was doing it?

Oh let me guess...you will blame the 'Haters'...and those who are stubbornly opposed to doping...and refuse to move the moral goalposts to suit your hero.


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## 97G8tr (Jul 31, 2007)

seriously??? why does the community care? In a relative sense he won. Period. He won with HIS legs, heart, and lungs. The end game = the larger universe would rather see the reality, get over it and go (if it can be proved). In the mean time - ride on.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

the_rydster said:


> Hope built on a lie...a deception?
> 
> Lance hiding behind the Cancer victims...threatening anyone who looks like exposing him...making money from his business interests...the Chris Carmichael 'coach' pantomime BS - a total lie. I read one of his books recently about training Lance and I feel ashamed to read it...it make me feel bad for cycling because it is a LIE, and it shows a contempt for cycling fans and the public in general, total cynicism: invent a BS rationalization of Lances post '99 performances based on exaggerated weight loss, high cadence, and climbing style, and aero testing, and 'training hard' (everyone else is lazy?!)...conveniently forget to include the doping program, in short create a sellable myth = sell books = $
> 
> ...


Agree 100%.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2007)

cocoboots said:


> so many people focus just on Lance because of his "i never tested positive" statements.


On the contary, it is what Lance is NOT SAYING as cycling crumbles which invites interest.


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## Chris Oz (Oct 8, 2005)

lookrider said:


> Agree 100%.


Same here


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## walleyeangler (Nov 4, 2005)

Call me incredibly gullible if you want - I'm a newspaper reporter and I don't tend to be - but as a cancer survivor I believe LA in his books when he insists he would never take a chance with his health with doping after cancer. I know what he means and I think he's telling the truth about his career post-cancer at least. I wish Lemond would give it a rest. 

IceMan


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

walleyeangler said:


> Call me incredibly gullible if you want...


OK, you're being incredibly gullible. Just because there is a great probability he doped heavily post-cancer doesn't take anything away from what he's done for cancer research, etc.


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## walleyeangler (Nov 4, 2005)

Call me old fashioned, too. I still believe in innocent until proven guilty. Whoever said Armstrong gets less scrutiny than a "normal athlete" has to be living in another dimension from the one I'm in. 

Armstong tells of being esssentially stalked by people wanting urine samples between competitions, he was tested and tested and tested during competitions and there was no positive that I know if other than the one seriously questioned B sample that was hardly treated in a scientific manner. No one that I know of has said, "Hey, I saw him" or ":Hey, I provided it to him," or "Here's the definitive proof." Do you have any idea how much money evidence like that would bring from the gogssip rags or FOX TV? Gimmeabreak.

I don't mean to sound off. But, the guy and bikes helped save my life from cancer. Still, I'm not biased in my view. I just want him to get a fair shake. The socalled "proof" I've seen and heard wouldn't even stand up to the civil law test of "more probably true than not true" let alone the "guilty beyond reasonable doubt" test in criminal courts. 

Americans just love to tear heros down these days. It's really a side of Americans I don't like very much.

IceMan


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

walleyeangler said:


> No one that I know of has said, "Hey, I saw him" or ":Hey, I provided it to him," or "Here's the definitive proof."


his (former) mechanic Mike Anderson has said he saw him in possession of PEDs, former soigneur Emma O'Reilly has said she personally provided multiple PEDs to LA after acquiring them and carrying them across Euro borders at his instruction.


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## cy1 (Dec 7, 2004)

*No one come off well*

No one comes off very well in this. Lemond lied when he told Stephanie he wasn't recording. Stephanie lied in her deposition . Lance lied when talking about his hospital room conversation.

The main damning evidence is Stephanie's direct observation in the hospital room. The rest of the stuff, while it may be true, came across more as innuendo


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## walleyeangler (Nov 4, 2005)

Swear them in and let's get the court - a fair, impartial, balanced court - moving on this. Until that's done, I choose to focus on the thousands, no millions of people LA has helped. 

Unless new evidence - hard evidence - surfaces, this is my last post on the LA/doping issue. The discussions go no where and mean nothing. 

IceMan


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

walleyeangler said:


> Swear them in and let's get the court - a fair, impartial, balanced court - moving on this.


What court?

The only court is the one of public opinion at this point.

Like I said before just because he doped doesn't mean he hasn't done some very good things for the cancer community.


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## funktekk (Jul 29, 2006)

walleyeangler said:


> Americans just love to tear heros down these days. It's really a side of Americans I don't like very much.
> 
> IceMan



It helps us get on with our meaningless, selfserving lives. While other cultures look to their heros for inspiration, we look for ways to prove they are no better than the common man.


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## tricycletalent (Apr 2, 2005)

You gotta give it to Lance tho. 7 Tours and there are still lotsa fanboys who believe he did it on orange juice and superior willpower. (Superior willpower explains everything). Aided by his fortune and U.S justice system, it is not very likely that anybody will expose him, you can't get much closer to evidence than what rests on Lance's shoulder, and still, public opinion will pretty much be that he was clean, and that people who refutes that are haters. Yeah, touch of Michael Jackson syndrome there. No ****, way to go Lance!!! The winner of the fraud and lottery game.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

funktekk said:


> It helps us get on with our meaningless, selfserving lives. While other cultures look to their heros for inspiration, we look for ways to prove they are no better than the common man.


That wouldn't explain why all the Euros think he doped.


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## KonaSS (Aug 18, 2006)

> Hope built on a lie...a deception?
> 
> Lance hiding behind the Cancer victims...threatening anyone who looks like exposing him...making money from his business interests...the Chris Carmichael 'coach' pantomime BS - a total lie. I read one of his books recently about training Lance and I feel ashamed to read it...it make me feel bad for cycling because it is a LIE, and it shows a contempt for cycling fans and the public in general, total cynicism: invent a BS rationalization of Lances post '99 performances based on exaggerated weight loss, high cadence, and climbing style, and aero testing, and 'training hard' (everyone else is lazy?!)...conveniently forget to include the doping program, in short create a sellable myth = sell books = $





> You gotta give it to Lance tho. 7 Tours and there are still lotsa fanboys who believe he did it on orange juice and superior willpower. (Superior willpower explains everything).


I will admit that I would LIKE to believe that Lance didn't dope, but deep down I believe he did. And I guess I don't have a problem with people knocking him for it. It certainly helped him make millions and millions of dollars. 

But I think some of you have gone too far in knocking his accomplishments. Some of you act like if he hadn't doped, you would be beating him in your local Wednesday night worlds. You don't win professional triathlons as a teenager if you are not seriously gifted athlete. 

If you want to argue that Lance doped, you also have to look at his major competitors for each of his tour wins. I think someone did some analysis somewhere here on the forums that showed that almost everyone in the top 5 in the tour for the last 10 years or so had either been busted for dope or had serious allegations connecting them to dope. 

And Lance beat them all for 7 years in a row. How? I don’t know. It could be better dope. But it could also be a better training plan, superior will power, mental stregth and dedication, and a good set of parents.


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## aliensporebomb (Jul 2, 2002)

Gads. 

How much bitter lemons can you stand to swallow?

Lemond, yes, his bike business could have been scuttled. He'd like to see
Lance down in the gutter I guess. I'm tempted to not listen to the tape. I don't
want to know that Greg probably has just as much as a dark side as any other
competitive rider. 

Lance? Don't even know what to think but a guy who leaves his wife and 3 
young kids to ride and hang out with sexy popstars and then dump them can't 
be 100% nice. And I guess you can't be 100% nice to ride and win races either.
That's not me.

That woman on the tape said she saw something but that's not proof, that's 
hearsay from someone who claims to have heard something. But even so,
consorting with Ferrari. Hm. Carmichael? "That's my coach". Some say
he was just a cover for his "real coach" Ferrari. But....

Short of an audio file of LA admitting doping..... And even then? 

How does this effect you and your riding? Do you ride your bike like a normal
person, training etc? People say Carmichael's training is a sham but I've had
good results from a couple of his videos and an article or two he wrote. I'm
sure Dr. Ferrari would get great results for me too, but I'm 44 so I'd prefer to 
live a little longer thank you.

As far as I'm concerned, none of this effects me, my relationship with my bike
and my riding in any way. 

I ride because it makes me feel good and is good for me and I don't need any 
BS PEDs to improve my performance. I do have a view that it's like overclocking 
a computer. If you overclock a computer you could end up with a blown CPU chip. 
With a person, a dead body. Not good. 

What do you do? You lose weight, train, get into shape and ride like hell. 

And if the "pros" want to drug themselves to the gills, so be it. 

It just makes me feel sorry that they can't experience what I do when I'm out 
on a ride where I'm totally one with the bike just because I like to do it, not 
because I'm in it for a purse of a huge amount of money or some kind of 
award or a stuffed lion. My reward? That "you feel terrific" after the ride
is done feeling and maybe a little less rubber on my tires.

I'd like to think that Lance won clean myself but it seems that everyone 
wants to believe that everyone was doping. Maybe everyone was in some
way or another. 

I saw a weird bumper sticker on the way back to the office this afternoon after
lunch: a homemade affair that someone parked in the bike shop lot had on the
back of their car something about "I ate Tyler's Chimeric Twin Brothers' love 
child with EPO" or something, it was totally ridiculous but maybe that's all 
you can do here is laugh about it.

Greg is too bitter for someone to have done what he did. Maybe he's just jealous
that EPO was after his time? Guys like Tyler dissappoint me? How could someone
possibly believe him now? It's Landis I still think might have gotten pooched because
some sloppy labs want to have a continued income flow.

Still... that's it.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*use freecorder...*

how long is the tape? just use freecorder and post a safe recording.

the freecorder demo will let you record for 15 minutes.

if it is longer than 15 minutes, just start a 2nd file and get the next 15 minutes.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

walleyeangler said:


> Call me old fashioned, too. I still believe in innocent until proven guilty. Whoever said Armstrong gets less scrutiny than a "normal athlete" has to be living in another dimension from the one I'm in.


Yes, I am....and you prove it in your posts

The evidence against Lance is overwhelming and multiple. Despite this the public, yourself included, gives him a pass because of his inspiring story and charitable activities.


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## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

I don't understand people who say they should give Lance a break since he's doing so much for thousands of people in the cancer community. Are you saying it is okay to lie and cheat for the greater good? Maybe he should run for office..hah!

Also, does anybody have first hand experience with his foundation? I've been doing cancer research for 4 years now and funding is going down the tube. NIH grants are getting harder to come by and Lance's foundation doesn't fund research. The last time I checked it was all for post cancer type funding, ie. rehabilitation type stuff. I seriously don't know where all the money goes.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

danielc said:


> I don't understand people who say they should give Lance a break since he's doing so much for thousands of people in the cancer community. Are you saying it is okay to lie and cheat for the greater good? Maybe he should run for office..hah!
> 
> Also, does anybody have first hand experience with his foundation? I've been doing cancer research for 4 years now and funding is going down the tube. NIH grants are getting harder to come by and Lance's foundation doesn't fund research. The last time I checked it was all for post cancer type funding, ie. rehabilitation type stuff. I seriously don't know where all the money goes.


he's apparently trying to get NCI research funding restored by the next administration. at least that was the apparent goal of the 2 presidential forums he held in Iowa last month. based on the attendance of candidates, if that's an issue that moves you it would probably serve you well to ignore the republican side of the ticket in '08.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

danielc said:


> Also, does anybody have first hand experience with his foundation? I've been doing cancer research for 4 years now and funding is going down the tube. NIH grants are getting harder to come by and Lance's foundation doesn't fund research. The last time I checked it was all for post cancer type funding, ie. rehabilitation type stuff. I seriously don't know where all the money goes.


The Lance Armstrong Foundation is mostly about cancer survivorship. You can find all kinds of info on grants, research, and where all the money goes at the Livestrong website.


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## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

mohair_chair said:


> The Lance Armstrong Foundation is mostly about cancer survivorship. You can find all kinds of info on grants, research, and where all the money goes at the Livestrong website.


I guess the way I look at it, you can save thousands if not millions by doing more basic research...plus it keeps our lab running. Currently we're funded by the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

Beware of the spyware on this link


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Lemond is psycho*

Lemond's MO is that he gives a sad story about himself to attempt to "loosen" people up to try to get them to give him some dirt. He talks about his bad relationships with his family and it only proves he is the psycho in this conversation.

LEMOND IS A FREAK PEOPLE!!!! Why in the hell is he always calling people up and recording his conversations with them?????????????????

If I ever meet the guy....I don't know what I would do. He is certifiable a stalker/psychomaniac.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

I also suspect this SNOOD is either Greg Lemond or close friend or family member. Go read posting history. Not your typical RBR member. He is always grinding an axe.


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## karategirl (Aug 27, 2006)

dagger said:


> I also suspect this SNOOD is either Greg Lemond or close friend or family member. Go read posting history. Not your typical RBR member. He is always grinding an axe.


That's ridiculous--doesn't he say in, like, his second sentence that Greg is a liar? I really don't think he's Greg Lemond, or a close personal relative. Really, the tape makes Lemond look pretty bad--certainly if I were him I would never post it.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

dagger said:


> Lemond's MO is that he gives a sad story about himself to attempt to "loosen" people up to try to get them to give him some dirt. He talks about his bad relationships with his family and it only proves he is the psycho in this conversation.
> 
> LEMOND IS A FREAK PEOPLE!!!! Why in the hell is he always calling people up and recording his conversations with them?????????????????
> 
> If I ever meet the guy....I don't know what I would do. He is certifiable a stalker/psychomaniac.



I totally disagree with your comments.... I have not listened to this tape though, I ended up with all kinds of warnings so I didn't download it. 

Regardless.... Pro cycling is corrupt in every direction, Greg Lemond is actually trying to do something about it... he is not a freak.... I have far more respect for GL than LA, who has totally remained silent and IMO the whole level playing field is BS too.... 

I just wonder how many riders decided NOT to go the EPO/blood doping route.... talented Joe Racer from anywhere USA that decided to remain clean, we'll never know or....how many other 16/17 year olds(like Jeanson) started on PED programs, how many deaths occured.....we'll never know because most will remain silent.... so I applaud Greg Lemond for at least trying to do something about it and speaking out.


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## aliensporebomb (Jul 2, 2002)

I should follow up that that link did indeed implant something interesting on my computer.

It disabled Symantec antivirus corporate edition so I nuked it completely, quick reinstalled,
then booted into safe mode and ran Spybot S&D and then Ccleaner (ccleaner.com) and 
cleared out whatever the hell was involved.

I still haven't listened to the mp3. Do I really need to listen to it to figure out what
was said?

Oh well.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

aliensporebomb said:


> I should follow up that that link did indeed implant something interesting on my computer.
> 
> It disabled Symantec antivirus corporate edition so I nuked it completely, quick reinstalled,
> then booted into safe mode and ran Spybot S&D and then Ccleaner (ccleaner.com) and
> ...


It was not from that link, but maybe from all those porn sites you are surfing :thumbsup:


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## wasfast (Feb 3, 2004)

I didn't listen to this conversation but did recently listen to Betsy's interview on http://competitorradio.com/details.php?show=154. She says some very strong things from first hand account.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Look.. I think lots would like to believe Lance didn't dope. I sure as hell would like to believe so as a huge disco fan with a Lance 7 time Project one bike even.

But I'm not saying he didn't, or that he did. Or if this is an elaborate attempt at trying to incriminate him. Or that it was just true to a large extent.

Whatever it is, I didn't click the link, mostly coz it's sickening based on what many said and also due to my not wanting to hear such stuff. Am I saying it's true or not? No. Also, the spyware is scary despite my using a Powerbook.

So, I just think well, lots of cyclists dope. True. Lots of other athletes friggin dope too. My sport, track & field. It's a field full of em. Or not. Other sports? There are dopers too. 

Doping is an omnipresent issue in EVERY sport, save for mabe darts or 9 ball pool. 

So, while we're giving these cyclists stick for doping, many of us fail to see the larger picture that cycling is actually DOING something to wipe out this widespread phenomenon. Which other sport is doing so? Soccer perhaps. Granted, some sports have more dopers than others given the nature of the events.

Watch the WWE for goodness sake since everyone is practically on steriods and it's a legal thing. 

What I don't get is why give cycling so much stick when in the essence, we're all cyclists and follow the sport closely to a varying degree of extent? In fact, we should be *proud* that cycling is doing something to clean the sport up. Which other sport can lay claim to have so many people caught and it's still doing something to clean the sport up? 

I say, the Lance issue is just one aspect of it where people would just wanna point fingers and say things just coz of his victories. I mean, he's just ONE cyclist in this essence. So, I guess while I'd like to believe his innocence and am a proponent for the court of law's notion of 'innocent till proven guilty,' I say the bigger picture is what matters.

How do we know Hincapie and the others doped? Any proof? Well, no incriminating evidence exist now do they? Some people might never get caught, some probably would and still dope again, while some, are true sportsmen who will never dope and have never doped and would be good athletes in whatever their sport is. They would win clean nonetheless. 

That's all I got to say about doping for now. And this Lance issue. Oh, one last thing - I'm glad he helped promote cycling in America coz it might never have been this big without him. So good on that. (Now don't go into the but he doped crap coz I'm just talking bout him making cycling more widespread in America and dope or not, deception of whatever f()ck sh!t, he still helped promote cycling in America. An I'm just talking about this in my statement here coz I know people would say otherwise without this disclaimer.) So kudos to him on this matter. Kudos to him on inspiring cancer survivors to strive in their lives. 

Cycling rocks. Doping blows. Whatever the sport. Clean sports are a dream. Not all dreams come true. But that doesn't mean we can't all dream.


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## tbb001 (Oct 1, 2007)

dagger said:


> LEMOND IS A FREAK PEOPLE!!!! Why in the hell is he always calling people up and recording his conversations with them?????????????????
> 
> If I ever meet the guy....I don't know what I would do. He is certifiable a stalker/psychomaniac.


 

Good stuff.

I honestly don't care if Lance doped or not. He probably did, but who really cares? He was just beating a field full of other dopers if that's the case.

I'm sure the same could be said for Lemond. I doubt he was clean either.

Lemond raced Chequamegon this year. I beat him. Does that mean that I'm a doper?


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

tbb001 said:


> Lemond raced Chequamegon this year. I beat him. Does that mean that I'm a doper?


You must be  Especially considering there is a thread on the doping or racing forums stating how nobody, even the CAT 1 or 2 guys could beat (the old and fat) Lemond these days because he's a GOD when it comes to cycling. He would crush any fit racer that wasn't a "Pro"

So yea....you must be a doper


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

tbb001 said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> I honestly don't care if Lance doped or not. He probably did, but who really cares? He was just beating a field full of other dopers if that's the case.
> 
> I'm sure the same could be said for Lemond. I doubt he was clean either.


IMO a doped Lance against others that doped is NOT a level playing field.... Read about Christophe Bassons, for just one example.... 

There is absolutley NO evidence that Lemond ever doped, he was always know as a clean rider....... nothing like the countless circumstantial evidence againt LA and his silence stance on doping, except to say he never tested positive and to sue anyone that gets in his way... Hmm...just like Marion Jones. 

(copied from my above post) I just wonder how many riders decided NOT to go the EPO/blood doping route.... talented Joe Racer from anywhere USA that decided to remain clean, we'll never know or....how many other 16/17 year olds(like Jeanson) started on PED programs, how many ruined lifes or deaths occured.....we'll never know because most will remain silent.... so I applaud Greg Lemond for at least trying to do something about it and speaking out.

Does anyone have a team Z jersery they want to sell?


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

Wookiebiker said:


> You must be  Especially considering there is a thread on the doping or racing forums stating how nobody, even the CAT 1 or 2 guys could beat (the old and fat) Lemond these days because he's a GOD when it comes to cycling. He would crush any fit racer that wasn't a "Pro"
> 
> So yea....you must be a doper



What happened to that thread?? I think it was deleted, that guy was a nut... but very entertaining.


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## tbb001 (Oct 1, 2007)

Wookiebiker said:


> You must be  Especially considering there is a thread on the doping or racing forums stating how nobody, even the CAT 1 or 2 guys could beat (the old and fat) Lemond these days because he's a GOD when it comes to cycling. He would crush any fit racer that wasn't a "Pro"
> 
> So yea....you must be a doper


Well, then there were 200+ racers that were doped up at the Chequamegon 40.  

I've been outed! I'm suing!


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## tbb001 (Oct 1, 2007)

pedalruns said:


> IMO a doped Lance against others that doped is NOT a level playing field.... Read about Christophe Bassons, for just one example....
> 
> There is absolutley NO evidence that Lemond ever doped, he was always know as a clean rider....... nothing like the countless circumstantial evidence againt LA and his silence stance on doping, except to say he never tested positive and to sue anyone that gets in his way... Hmm...just like Marion Jones.


A level playing field? If they all doped, then it doesn't matter, as that means that they all cheated anyway. 

I'm sure that Lance could afford the Campy Record-level EPO, while Basso and Ullrich could only afford the Shimano 105-level EPO.  

You're right, there is no hard evidence that Lemond ever doped. But he happened to race in a time when doping was popular, and racers weren't even tested. And yet, he still beat all those dopers in multiple Tours and Worlds? Like I said earlier, I don't really care if Lemond or Armstrong doped. I'm just assuming that they all did, just like the other top cyclists from both of their eras.


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