# Centaur v. Athena



## davelikestoplay

Hello all,

I am likely getting a custom steel road bike built (first road bike in 25 yrs, woot!) and they are offering the Athena group for only $100 more than Centaur with essentially the same wheels and other spec. No brainer right? Or am I missing something? I've never riden campy so I have no real idea of the functional differences between the various groups (besides 11sp-10sp) and I couldn't find anything from here or rooting around the campy website to suggest they are different. Neither between those two and Veloce for that matter which is about $500 less and would maybe allow for better wheels. Chorus and above are not in my budget. Any helpful comments from the campy experts here?

Thanks in advance.


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## ericjacobsen3

If you have no investment in 10s cassettes and don't plan to have many wheel sets needing expensive 11s cassettes on each one, get Athena. Major differences are 1 extra cog, respectable machined and not stamped chainrings on Athena, and a nice forged instead of stamped plate on the Athena rear derailleur. Athena has full skeleton brakes and not Taiwanese semi skeleton like Centaur, but in reality the Centaur brakes work at least as well.

Good luck and let us know how you like the bike!


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## kbwh

I'd go 11 speed (Athena), but I'd also try to get a pair of Ultra Shift Ergos (Chorus or 2010 Athena) into the deal. The difference would be another $100 or so but definitively worth it if you ride in rolling terrain.

Ultrashift: 3 down/5 up in one movement
Powershift: 3 down/1 up in one movement


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## Golfguy

Functionally, the groups all work much like one another, so that's not much of an issue. Much of the current differentiation is cosmetic except for the Ultrashift/Powershift difference. SR/Record/Chorus is Ultrashift (5 down/3 up), the rest of the range is Powershift (1 down/3 up).

The other thing to consider along with the cassette purchase is that 11-speed uses an expensive special tool to remove/replace the chain and the special chain pins are relatively expensive as well. Cassettes and chains are the main reason I'm sticking with 10-speed. I bought a Centaur group (less crankset, I already had and FSA SL-K Light) and I really like it. for 2012 you can get Centaur in Black or Black/Red (which I got) or Veloce in Black or Silver. Centaur doesn't come in silver, so if you like that look you might want to go with Veloce. The Campy site has lots of good pictures you can compare. If the tradeoff is better/lighter wheels, I'd seriously consider stepping down to Veloce, especially if you like a silver look, which would look good on a steel bike (IMHO).


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## Cyclin Dan

All I can say is I've always ridden Dura Ace, and about 4 months ago built a btw bike with Super Record 11. The 11 cogs are nice, but the best thing is shifting as many as 5 cogs in one swipe. 

Get whatever groupset you need to get that functionality. It's unreal.


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## cs1

ericjacobsen3 said:


> Athena has full skeleton brakes and not Taiwanese semi skeleton like Centaur, but in reality the Centaur brakes work at least as well.


I didn't realize Campy was sourcing anything in Taiwan. I thought all the low end stuff was made in Romania.


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## pcs2

Golfguy said:


> The other thing to consider along with the cassette purchase is that 11-speed uses an expensive special tool to remove/replace the chain and the special chain pins are relatively expensive as well.


I'm a big fan of the KMC chains with the missing link. No need for a special tool.


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## davelikestoplay

Cyclin Dan said:


> The 11 cogs are nice, but the best thing is shifting as many as 5 cogs in one swipe.
> 
> Get whatever groupset you need to get that functionality. It's unreal.





kbwh said:


> I'd go 11 speed (Athena), but I'd also try to get a pair of Ultra Shift Ergos (Chorus or 2010 Athena) into the deal. The difference would be another $100 or so but definitively worth it if you ride in rolling terrain.
> 
> Ultrashift: 3 down/5 up in one movement
> Powershift: 3 down/1 up in one movement


Sounds like this is the significant functional upgrade aside from the extra cog. Though as a newb I don't fully understand the value of this feature. Is it _*only*_ 3 down/5 up or _*up to*_ 3 down/5 up? Its not 100% clear to me from the two responses above.

So Athena has some better quality forged parts. Cons are expense, and possibly higher maintenance costs that might be allieviated with the KMC chain. I see this as a long term investment so a $100 difference is not considered significant.

I probably lean to the Athena at this point, notwithstanding the color issue which I haven't decided yet. I will inquire about the Chorus shifters. The full group is another $900 so that's not happening.

Thanks to all for their comments.

Another question: Is it better to spend more on the wheels or components? or is this just a matter of preference?


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## kbwh

_Up to_. 

It's always good to spend money on wheels, but for a do it all wheel I think you'll be very happy with the Campagnolo Zonda. On the other hand a custom steel bike might call for something like this beauty from Zen Cyclery: Katmandu Custom Wheelset


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## Golfguy

I agree with kbwh, I'm very happy with my Zonda wheels, but they would not necessarily look at home on a classic-look steel bike.


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## orange_julius

cs1 said:


> I didn't realize Campy was sourcing anything in Taiwan. I thought all the low end stuff was made in Romania.


Check this out:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/where-campagnolo-components-wheels-made-269679.html


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## humanbeing

I built up a lugged steel road bike and got 2010 Athena with Ultra Torque/Ultra Shift at Velomine.
Very sweet,
Peter


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## davelikestoplay

Golfguy said:


> I agree with kbwh, I'm very happy with my Zonda wheels, but they would not necessarily look at home on a classic-look steel bike.


I am going with steel, but I think I will be going for a more modern look, I just like the idea of a steel frame. So the funky campy wheels with the three rear spoke pattern might look pretty cool.  Anyway I am going in for my fitting in a couple weeks and I will post back with my decision and then 4-6 weeks later with pics. I'm excited... I never thought campy was within reach.


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## redvespablur

I have a custom steel Marinoni with Veloce and Zondas - Veloce works fine but I run Chorus/Athena Zonda 2-way Fit build on my Argon 18 carbon bike and love the 11 speed with 12-29 cassette and have most of bits to upgrade to similar mix on the Marinoni.

One worthy upgrade is the better shifters either Chorus or the older Athena. Also love the tubeless with the 2-way fit Zondas. You can also find UltraTorque Athena cranks on ebay for ~125 and this is much better crank than the current powertorque offering


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## davelikestoplay

redvespablur said:


> I have a custom steel Marinoni with Veloce and Zondas - Veloce works fine but I run Chorus/Athena Zonda 2-way Fit build on my Argon 18 carbon bike and love the 11 speed with 12-29 cassette and have most of bits to upgrade to similar mix on the Marinoni.
> 
> One worthy upgrade is the better shifters either Chorus or the older Athena. Also love the tubeless with the 2-way fit Zondas. You can also find UltraTorque Athena cranks on ebay for ~125 and this is much better crank than the current powertorque offering


I am going with Marinoni also. I like the custom and Canadian/Italian factors. Any tips on dealing with them? So far so good though. I look to go with the same setup you have on the Argon 18 but maybe with lower wheels to keep it under budget of 3000 all in.


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## redvespablur

My LBS is a dealer so they did the dealing. If you are dealing directly just get the frame or frame and group set b/c the campy wheels etc through them are very expensive. LBS did a great job sizing me up - it is a custom Sportivo but Zona tubing vice spirit due to my 6'4'' 245 Clydey goodness with a monster Alpha Q fork. It is a great bike and the Veloce works great

The Zonda 2-way fit from UK or eBay will be cheaper than the Scirocco through Marinoni and way way better than Vento or Khamsin.


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## flatlander_48

davelikestoplay said:


> I am going with steel, but I think I will be going for a more modern look, I just like the idea of a steel frame. So the funky campy wheels with the three rear spoke pattern might look pretty cool.  Anyway I am going in for my fitting in a couple weeks and I will post back with my decision and then 4-6 weeks later with pics. I'm excited... *I never thought campy was within reach.*


Another myth perpetuated by Shimano/SRAM fans and retailers...


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## flatlander_48

A couple of noteworthy points...


Going with the Athena gets you on the 11spd path. Not that there is anything wrong with Centaur, but there is nowhere to go if you would like to upgrade piecemeal.
Goint Athena now also puts you in line to upgrade to the EPS system. An Athena version of EPS will be out next year.


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## davelikestoplay

flatlander_48 said:


> Another myth perpetuated by Shimano/SRAM fans and retailers...


To be fair, the best deal I have seen for Veloce (at the LBS I am working with) is still about $300 more than shimano 105 and centaur is maybe bit more than Ultegra. So there is a bit of price premium, but I really think it was the general lack of availability that made it seem unattainable to me during my research before. To be honest it wasn't even on my radar until 
the LBS had a winter promotion with custom frames and very competitive Campy pricing.


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## Salsa_Lover

Get 2010 Centaur, you can still get them for very low$$$ and is Ultra Shift/Ultra Torque.

I have a full silver one in reserve for someday when I find the Colnago Master that fullfill my wishes.


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## flatlander_48

davelikestoplay said:


> To be fair, the best deal I have seen for Veloce (at the LBS I am working with) is still about $300 more than shimano 105 and centaur is maybe bit more than Ultegra. So there is a bit of price premium, but I really think it was the general lack of availability that made it seem unattainable to me during my research before. To be honest it wasn't even on my radar until
> the *LBS had a winter promotion with custom frames and very competitive Campy pricing*.


But see, The faithful would have a hard time believing that. They would much rather tell you how Campagnolo hardware is SOOOooooo expensive. It reinforces their notion that people only buy Campagnolo for the snob factor.


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## cs1

Golfguy said:


> I agree with kbwh, I'm very happy with my Zonda wheels, but they would not necessarily look at home on a classic-look steel bike.


I don't know about that. I think they look good.


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## davelikestoplay

*Update*

So I am getting a Marinoni Piuma!! I ordered the Athena group with Chorus shifters and rear der and Khamsin wheels, $2639. I am going to go with a Gios inspired blue with silver parts. I would say a classic look somewhat modernized. 

To get ultrashift it was suggested the chorus rear der as well as the shifters, but I prefer the all silver look of the Athena rear der and other components, but its less of an issue with the shifters since the hoods are black on both. Is it stricly neccessary to get both? The shifters are $100 more, as predicted by kbwh above but and the rear der is another $150. I would rather save that money if I can since I am already over budget.  

On the wheels I noticed the Khamsins seemed really quiet when coasting, whereas the Scirroco's and Fulcrum racing 3's were quite buzzy. Granted they were last years model of Khamsin's and they did not have Zonda's (I assume those are on par with the fulcrum 3's). I am not a fan of the buzzy noise. I save $200 if I downgrade to the Khamsin from Scirocco (which come with the Athena package). Those Zen Cyclery ones suggested above seem great but are not in the budget. I like the LBS and would rather buy the whole package from them. Interestingly they did not try too hard to upsell me on the wheels despite reiterating the oft repeated opinion here that they are very important.

If this year's model Khamsins are just as noisy then I am left wondering what to do. All of the other wheels they had of other brands were also buzzy. Am I just going to have to accept that noise?

Can anyone comment on the noise levels of the wheels? Other wheel recommendations? I can decide on final parts spec later on as the frame geo and paint scheme are the time sensitive issues for the factory. Sorry for the overly long post and thanks again in advance for any comments.


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## kbwh

Proper Campagnolo freewheels are not quiet...

Somewhere on the Campagnolo web site there is a table that can tell you if the athena rd is ok or full performance with the chorus shifters. Your lbs might have used it but I'd check anyway.


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## ericjacobsen3

Athena rear derailleur is fine with Chorus shifters as both are 11 speed. Carbon is silly on a derailleur and on Campy 11sp the corner of the brittle carbon hits the ground first if you lay over the bike -see many broken on Ebay. Athena also has the nice forged outer pulley cage plate like Chorus. Just don't look at the back stamped (steel?) paralelagram link. I'll admit I have 1 Athena and 1 Chorus.

The only mystery on rear derailleurs is if the new 10 speed derailleurs ('11 and '12) have any cable pull difference from 11 speed. Campy says they are not compatible, but I think only the silk screened 11 or 10 on the derailleur is incompatible with a count of the cogs. New 10sp uses the same narrower spacing as 11. I tested my Athena derailleru on 10 speed and it was fine. I think all 10sp and 11sp may have the same cable pull ratio, and the old 10 derailleurs are marginal for 11 due to wider pulleys that have more space before a narrow chain hits the cage. Probably a lot more than you wanted to know.


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## Golfguy

davelikestoplay said:


> To get ultrashift it was suggested the chorus rear der as well as the shifters, but I prefer the all silver look of the Athena rear der and other components, but its less of an issue with the shifters since the hoods are black on both. Is it stricly neccessary to get both? The shifters are $100 more, as predicted by kbwh above but and the rear der is another $150. I would rather save that money if I can since I am already over budget.
> 
> Can anyone comment on the noise levels of the wheels? Other wheel recommendations? I can decide on final parts spec later on as the frame geo and paint scheme are the time sensitive issues for the factory. Sorry for the overly long post and thanks again in advance for any comments.


I have both 2010 Khamsin and 2011 Zonda wheels. The Khamsin is much louder than the Zonda. I would suggest getting the full Athena group and using the savings to upgrade to the Zonda wheels. They are almost a pound lighter and much quieter than the Khamsin wheels. For me personally, Ultrashift is not that big a deal. It's easy to snap off two or three shifts with the thumb button on the Powershift and I was always going too far on the Ultrashift when I tried to do more than one. I know my opinion is in the minority here, but Powershift works great and if you can use the savings to keep your silver theme with the Athena levers plus get much better wheels, I think that's a win.


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## Golfguy

cs1 said:


> I don't know about that. I think they look good.


Agreed. That does look nice, especially with the matching tires. Great bike.


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## mriddle

*10 v. 11*

Yes! Cable pull distance on 11 speed is less than 10 speed.
Your 11spd Chorus shifters will work fine w/any 11spd Athena RD.
I'm not a big fan of the Khamsin wheels, Zondas are enormously superior, but I'd go for Neutrons ~ same $ as Zondas and more traditional.


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## cathyandrob

*Really, that's crazy.....*

Because that means that all pre 2012 10 speed derailleurs/shifters can't be mixed with current systems because the cog spacing is different and cable pull ratio might be different.

Why would Campy make the cog spacing the same on 10 and 11 speed?

It's good if you have all 2012 and later stuff, but if you have pre 2012 you can't just get a new 10 speed derailleur or shifter as it won't index properly.

Am I right or have I got it confused?

Rob


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## redvespablur

I think the Fulcrum 3 is a better wheel set than the Khamsins or Scirocco - I ride the Zonda and love them.

The Athena and Chorus should play well together - all the 11 speed stuff does the same as all the 10 speed stuff does - the alloy Athena rear might work better with your alloy esthetic?


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## davelikestoplay

ericjacobsen3 said:


> Athena rear derailleur is fine with Chorus shifters as both are 11 speed.
> 
> Probably a lot more than you wanted to know.



Yes more than I wanted to know.. but still informative



redvespablur said:


> I think the Fulcrum 3 is a better wheel set than the Khamsins or Scirocco - I ride the Zonda and love them.
> 
> The Athena and Chorus should play well together - all the 11 speed stuff does the same as all the 10 speed stuff does - the alloy Athena rear might work better with your alloy esthetic?


Thanks for the input yes I am going with the All alloy Athena setup... 

Everyone is recommending Fulcrum 3s or Zondas, but its not in the budget right now. I console myself with the fact (whether true or not) that the extra spokes on the sciroccos will make things a bit more durable.

Thanks to all for their useful input. Its now ordered and I should receive it in 4-6 weeks!! I am pumped!


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## redvespablur

Pics when you have it!


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## old'n'slow

*Campy Wheels*

I'm a little late to the party, but wanted to pass on my experience regarding Campagnolo wheels.

I order a set of Vento Reation wheels from Ribble. They were going on a Pinarello and I liked the G3 spoke pattern. As a Clyde, I was looking for more spokes, so it came down to the Khamsin or Vento. The Vento's are slightly lighter, so they won out...

Not only was I amazed that the price - $205 including shipping from the UK to the Seattle area, the wheels arrived extremely fast. The order was placed on a Wednesday and the wheels arrived the following Wednesday. 

Regarding the sound of the freehub, mine isn't much louder that a Dura-Ace freehub, which is slightly quieter than a DT Swiss 240 hub. 

All things considered, I'm very happy with the purchase. I only have 40 miles on the wheels, so durability hasn't been test, but my fingers are crossed...


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## davelikestoplay

*Bike order is done!!*

Took a few extra weeks but just found out my bike is ready!! Will try to pick it up this weekend and post some pics. I am excited to ride my new bike and try out this campy thing everyone talks about.... :thumbsup:


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