# Need Frame Ideas: Fixie Road Bike for fast group rides



## flafonta (Sep 15, 2008)

I would like to get a Fixie Road Bike, to ride in fast group rides on the road.

A few local guys sometimes join us with their fixie bikes on fast group rides.

I may sometimes go to the track but it is not the priority, road is.

I want at least front brake and regular road handlebars.

I am not very familiar with geometry for these frames, but I suspect some of the pure track frames may not do too well on the road.

Budget for full bike is under $4K. I like to buy/build nice bikes, so it is important for me have a bike that I love to look at and ride. And I will likely not be able to test ride one before getting buying 

I currently ride a Specialized Venge and love it.

Any frame suggestions (that can have brakes)?

A few frames that I have noticed or that my local bike shop carries:

Cinelli Vigorelli (a friend has one in white and blue that looks stunning) Specialized Langster Pro Frameset
Fuji Track Elite frame also looks good with wheels that are not screaming too much
Cannondale CAAD10 Track 1
Giant Omnium
Chinese Full Carbon on ebay?

Thanks for your help!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

What about one of the many reconfigurable rear drop out offerings out there. Some even have split drive side drop-out cfg for belt drive.

Kid of be cool to have a reconfigurable toy for down the road mood changes. 

I have run my SS on group rides, and @ 70ish gear inches, it is stay on the front, or get spit out the back. And an extra day of recovery too.  I stay on the front somehow, but saying 'an extra day of recovery' may well be understating it.

My best SS bike is my Custom Strong racing frame that was my main geared bike for 12 years. Relegated to SS with a White ENO. Good aggressive geom, that helps a lot dicing it up with all manor of geared 10-11 speed folks on all manor of race bikes.

That is a considerable budget, maybe a custom frame as a start a consideration too. Without having to fund STIs and geared bits that makes for a wide window for $4k. 

A Carl Strong frame and fork total custom sized with the best possible fork would leave near 1500.00 for wheels and bits. And a custom geom might suite dual use a bit better possibly.

Mine has 80mm of BB drop, great for rough housing on the road, but I probably would use something else for track use honestly.

I like the Strong ala SS with the ENO so much, I have toyed with doing it a lot lighter with my 2009 Scott addict LTD when I get something I like enough better to put the groupo on. Imagine a 11-12lb SS carbon LTD. It is pretty easy to get that thing under 14 with STIs and gears.

So there is an idea for you too. A super sweet carbon ultra lite anything allowed to be SS/fixed with a White Industries ENO with the vertical dropouts. This also allows you to diddle the BB height depending on the phase of the ENO when you tighten it.

Pic of my Strong how she sits since the conversion.


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

Personally, I prefer road geometry for riding road. This also opens up a vastly larger group of frames you can use. Just find any road frame you like with a BB30 or PF30 bottom bracket and get an eccentric adapter. I have one on my cross bike and it works great. Not only will a road frame be more comfortable on hours-long rides, but you'll have a full set of bottle cages.

If you do make it out to the track, maybe rent or borrow a bike for the day.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Gunnar Street Dog.

While bikes with track bike specific geometry CAN be ridden on the road, from a practical perspective they're made to handle best on a specific venue. The Gunnar is simply a single speed rear end with road geometry, and that makes sense. It also comes with 2 bottle mounts which is another benefit over true track bikes.

Well within your budget.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

All three Wabi frames are road geometry. I rode a fixed (81") Wabi Classic for a few years on the road, and quite often as the sole fixed rider on geared group rides. I have nothing but good things to say about the bike.

The Wabi Lightning SE (Columbus Spirit) now comes in at 17.5 lbs right out of the box. No logos except one very small and subdued one on the headtube. Only trouble: Wabi is way under your budget, so there's no exclusivity.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

wim said:


> I rode a fixed (81")



I can do that to the peril of my once tib/fib plateau fractured leg aching for a scarey amount of time. I can tell you @ 70ish, I almost go into orbit no less than a few times riding with geared riders/bike. And it 'is' a tremendous amount of fun to be sure.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

Whatever the geometry, I have to say I totally admire any SS or fixed gear rider who can hang with the pack on a group ride. Flats and descents are where I usually get dropped. I'm running 44:16, and can generally climb most hills seated half way and standing the rest. I'm afraid if I got a larger chainring, it might help somewhat on flats and descents, but not all that much, and could crush me climbing. So, 46,48, 50?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

robt57 said:


> I can tell you @ 70ish, I almost go into orbit no less than a few times riding with geared riders/bike.


I can relate. At 71 now, I couldn't push an 81" gear any more for any length of time. But anything lower would get me dropped from the geared group on downhills.

I don't do those rides any more. But I clearly remember the "fun" getting to the beginning of a climb already dead tired from spinning my legs off on the descent going down to it. It's all raviny roller coaster hills here--fixed gear hell.

@dwt: I made my 81" with a 48 x16. But of course, any 3 : 1 front-to-rear ratio will get you that 81". There's this long-standing myth about a gear inch made with fewer teeth feeling and performing differently than that same gear inch made with more teeth. Not sure I'm buying it.


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## flafonta (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the great ideas. Keep them coming! BTW, I live in Dallas area. Very flat, which makes it easier to hang to group rides on a fixie.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

*EDIT: May I Suggest...*

May I suggest....

Getting a used aluminum Cannondale road frame, building up a rear wheel with an ENO hub, and sticking on a rear brake. 

This is one of my projects from a while back:

www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling

The Cannondale frame is nice and stiff, allowing for snappy sprints and good handling. And, at this point, a CAAD3 frame set (or whatever) is cheap.

The ENO hub allows you to use vertical drop outs. So just about any frameset that you have laying around is fair game to be fixie-fied.

I use a rear brake, even with a fixie, because it is what I am used to, and I really like the redundancy on the road. All it takes is a front flat at speed to convince you that a rear brake isn't such a bad idea. 

This particular bike is a rocket, and I can more than hang on fast group rides.

EDIT: a "bigger picture" suggestion - I gather that you have never ridden fixed before. Rather than blow $4k on a fixie bike first time out of the chute, I'd suggest building a cheaper "proof of concept" bike first. See if you like it. Some don't. A used road frame, ENO wheel set, and parts should run well under $1k. Hell, it should be well under $750, but I'm cheap.


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## plantdude (Sep 29, 2011)

I've been very happy with my spec langster (circa 2004/5), built up with front AND rear brake, bullhorn bar with aero brake levers. Yes it's a harsh AL frame, but it's not what I ride on all day epics so it's fine. Having a rear brake is essential for fixed road riding if you ride in the hills. Here in the Bay Area, riding with only a front brake is downright frightening. Ever tried to descend on a fixed gear going around corners? Yikes! Helps to be able to drag a rear brake for safety and to minimize knee issues. The langster is not my track bike, but I have it set up so I can remove the stem/bar and both brakes in a matter of minutes (as one attached system), and I have a second stem/bar to pop on there for track use (usually as a loner to friends).


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Gregory Taylor said:


> May I suggest....
> 
> 
> EDIT: I'd suggest building a cheaper "proof of concept" bike first. See if you like it. Some don't. A used road frame, ENO wheel set, and parts should run well under $1k. Hell, it should be well under $750, but I'm cheap.



I have to agree. My first proof of concept was an 80s SLX Colnago frame. Used a Sub-11 hub converter [Surly 'fixxer' after they bought out Sub-11]. A few rides, and then dedicated Tuesday night fixed rides... I liked it and built up a rear wheel on a suzu hub. Yada.

Stage geom lugged frame was perfect geometry I felt then and now. Turning my Strong being so familiar and the perfect fit with it just made sense. 

I think it is even more crucial said frame/bike be of co-operative handling for road use. That rules out track geometry for me I can tell you.

One guy on the Tues fixed rides had a Paramount track bike from the 60s. Pretty, sure was. But in and around traffic perhaps a normal road geom is a better idea on all levels.

And yes, a rear brake or both if around others, be it cars, peds, planes trains etc etc. And as said, a steep descent with only a front brake, not me...


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## flafonta (Sep 15, 2008)

I am currently leaning towards using the ENO eccentric hub with a road frame and keep both brakes.

A friend has a nice Cannondale (probably too nice...) that we could strip down and then add an ENO based wheel.

Any experience running SRAM shifters without the derailleur cables? Will it rattle? Do I need to gut the inside?

I am still trying to figure out the gear-inch ratio I should use. I am currently thinking around 80". Chainring is a 50 so 50x17 ( 77 gear-inch) or 50x16 ( 82 gear-inch). Any thoughts on that? On my fast group rides, we average 22+mph including all the lights and stops. When we roll, we are usually above 24mph (neutral wind). If tail wind, we often exceed 30mph and sprint for city limits at 35mph to 40mph (with tail winds).

Thanks!


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

flafonta said:


> I am currently leaning towards using the ENO eccentric hub with a road frame and keep both brakes.
> 
> A friend has a nice Cannondale (probably too nice...) that we could strip down and then add an ENO based wheel.
> 
> ...


For brake levers, I poached a nice set of non-sti Dura Ace aero levers. Any aero brake levers will do. Cane Creek/Tektro make some nice ones.

The one thought about the ENO (if you read the article) is that you may need a long-reach brake in back. In order to make the ENO work I needed to orient it so that the offset located the wheel down and away from the brake bridge and seat tube (otherwise there were tire clearance issues). In that position, the short reach brake calipers didn't reach. There are plenty of long-reach brakes out there. 

As for gearing, I run 53 x 18 which is 77.4 inches with a 700 x 23c wheel. That gives about 110 rpm at the crank at 25 mph, and 130 rpm at close to 30 mph. Spinning at 130 rpm is where things start to get interesting. Based on the riding that you want to do, you may want more gear. Try 80 inches and see how you like it. You may want to buy a couple of different cogs to see what works best. They are fairly cheap. (Oh, and get a lockring tool and chain whip....)


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

My first fixie was a lugged steel frame from the 1970s that a buddy of mine - a fireman - found behind a shopping center while putting out a dumpster fire. Based on my subsequent history with that particular bike, I'm sure that "she" (bikes are almost always "she") set that fire...

In Memoriam | The Wrecking Crew


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Brakes, yep. 

I have on my Strong Shimano BR650s. I also have a steel fork with a longer axle to crown length so I am able to use the same calipers front and rear. I had an AME on the bike when geared and would have had to run a shorter reach caliper on the front and the BR650 or similar on the rear. I figured the BB was low enough on that frame @ 75-80mm [forget which it is actually, but lowish] that raising the front and rear via low ENO eccentric adjustment would work well, and it seem to.

I have two ENO wheels, and have the other one on an old AL Allez as a kinda loaner SS for friends that are tall and want to ride/try one.  Just someplace to hang an extra ENO set I built up.  The gadgetry of the ENO had my twinkie/wheelbuilding cream oozing and I did not stop at one set.

Anyway, on that Allez, 6500 Dual Pivots work front and rear, but I did have to open the pad holder windows to drop it that last 1.5mm needed on the rear. So be prepared to tweak...

With a tight road bike/frame [short chain stay and tight brake bridge clearance] you may get into some challenges with the ENO in function. For example with tight clearances you may have to use the ENO rearward and down position of the hub center to get it to work with out either the tire hitting seat tube, brake bridge, or a chainstay bridge if it exists on a particular frame. 

Get a wheel and calipers and scope out said frameset before committing I would suggest. Have a tire mounted and fit the wheel into the frame. The ENO is a great design, but it is ad-hoc, lets face it.

I truly feel a longer WB & Chainstay frame may well allow the ENO use better. Or at least a wider window of wheel placement certainly under use. But if the rear brake bridge on a given frame has more clearance for a bigger tire, you will likely need longer reach caliper. And possibly two different reach calipers for each end.

Tektro has pretty good range of dual pivot calipers in the reach dept., and are very rea$onable and powerful enough with koolstops salmons.

All the reach spec are listed on the web site. And if you wind up with different reach for front and rear, they will match.

I will say that the finish on the BR650s is more on par with an expensive project then the Tektro. Not sure if there are higher end TRP level long reach choices or not.. But the TRP stuff is sweet.

For example, TRP RRL Carbon Brake Levers. Perfect at the $4k project level IMO.










TRP Brake catalog on line here:
TRP Brakes 2015 Catalog


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

TRP RG957 calipers are Reach: 47-57mm reach a quick browsing reveals. I believe the BR650s are the same reach, googling can affirm.

Nice and trim looking too. Seems to be the only longer reach TRP Level choice unless I missed something. But the Tektros as I said previously do have 3-4 reach choices IIRC.


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## flafonta (Sep 15, 2008)

Well, I talk to a friend who regularly rides his fixie on our Saturday group rides, and he says he needs 94 gear-inch to not get dropped on the fast sections  That will be pretty hard with my chicken legs.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

flafonta said:


> Well, I talk to a friend who regularly rides his fixie on our Saturday group rides, and he says he needs 94 gear-inch to not get dropped on the fast sections  That will be pretty hard with my chicken legs.


Agreed. How does he climb with that gearing? Does he have functional knees? An animal totally out of my league


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

flafonta said:


> ...says he needs 94 gear-inch to not get dropped on the fast sections  That will be pretty hard with my chicken legs.



Only after 20 minutes. ;O



dwt said:


> How does he climb with that gearing? Does he have functional knees? An animal totally out of my league



Correction? " 'DID' he have functional knees."


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## flafonta (Sep 15, 2008)

He is a strong racer (road, crits and track), Cat 2, solidly built.


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

flafonta said:


> He is a strong racer (road, crits and track), Cat 2, solidly built.


Figures. Quads of steel


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

wim said:


> I can relate. At 71 now, I couldn't push an 81" gear any more for any length of time.



BTW, I meant 70ish Gear Inches. I am 57 yrs old.  But my right knee is a lot older courtesy of some 2006 Ski induced fib/tib plateau fractures.
Well fall induced technically, but I was skiing just before that...


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

Wow, 94gi. Sounds like you should keep your geared roadie for the group rides and buy a fixed for solo ventures. Buy a cheap bike before sinking $$$ into it. And for $4k, I'd go custom steel frame.


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## zipp2001 (Feb 24, 2007)

Turned one of my Zipp2001's into a single speed last year. I'm running a 52/15 with 650c tri spokes. I switch out the rear tri spoke with a disk wheel quite often for a little more aero advantage. Been having a blast ripping around town, with my longest ride being 28 miles.


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