# Dogma 60.1 vs. S-Works SL3



## mykol77

Bought a used S-Works SL3 frame from Ebay last week. I should finish building it up with Red gruppo this week. I'm dying to ride it and see how it compares to my Dogma. I'll probably give out a ride report after a few months of riding the SL3. For those who have both the Dogma and S-Works SL3, can you give me comparison report between the two? Thanks!


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## old'n'slow

I, for one, am very interested in reading the report and hearing your impressions. I've not had the pleasure of riding either of the bikes you are talking about, but will be looking to buy a highend frame in the not to distant future and both of these fit the bill.

Good luck with the build and if possible, please provide "mini" reports as you progress through the process.


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## mykol77

Finally had the build on the SL3 finished. I'll test her tomorrow. Meanwhile here is a pic of the Dogma and S-Works SL3. I can't wait to compare the two.


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## antihero77

two beauties


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## rhauft

*Here's mine*



antihero77 said:


> two beauties


I've had both for a couple of seasons now. I just replaced my 60.1 Dogma for a Dogma2 Giro edition a couple weeks ago. I've been using the SL3 S-Works for training and wet days. Both are great bikes. Can't beat the S-Works for value but the Dogma is just so refined and gorgeous. The 60.1 Dogma was almost a pound heavier than the S-Works, but the Dogma2 is less than a 1/4 lb (100gr) heavier but noticeably stiffer. I don't feel the 1/4 lb. but I do feel the increased stiffness on every pedal stroke. On hilly days, which is pretty much every day here in the SF bay area, I found myself choosing the S-Works over the 60.1 Dogma. Now that I've upgraded to the Dogma2 and the weather is great, my S-Works is hanging on a hook, collecting dust, maybe until next winter...


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## mykol77

Great comparo rhauft. Like you, I have the same opinion regarding the 60.1 and the SL3. I think nothing beats the value of an SL3, it is ligher, climbs better but also twitchier than the 60.1. The ride is noticeable harsher also. The 60.1 is very smoooth and very very stable. I've done 40ish mph descends on both and I am more confident in doing those on the 60.1.

If only Pina would bring production to Italy when they decide to produce their next top tier bike , then maybe that would justify the higher price tag. As of now, that is my only complaint.

And by the way, anyone here having problems with the top coat of their Dogmas yellowing? I've seen a couple of Princes and Dogmas that have yellow top coats.


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## MRFIXALL4

Don't know how you can do a fair comparison of two frames with different wheels, bar, and stem. Some bar/stem combos flex more than others. Wheels definately have different ride qualities. Just my opinion.


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## mykol77

MRFIXALL4 said:


> Don't know how you can do a fair comparison of two frames with different wheels, bar, and stem. Some bar/stem combos flex more than others. Wheels definately have different ride qualities. Just my opinion.


The Zipps arrived before the SL3 frame. So I rode it for around a 100 miles on the Dogma. Different stems and handlebars yes, but I know enough to compare two bikes using the same wheels. Of course this is MY opinion.


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## JC1974

I have a Dogma 60.1 in white/silver/black and love it. I have had it for 2 years, built with SR 11, Zipp 404 FC CC, integrated most handlebar/stem and Keo blade pedals. It looks gorgeous. On the flats is feels solid and feels fast. Complete bike weights 16.2 pounds. 

Last week I got a limited edition blacked out SL4. So far I have put about 130 miles in 3 days and I can quickly see the difference from my Dogma. The SL4 is built with Sram red 2012, Zipp 303 FC CC, Keo blade pedals, Sworks stem and Sworks handlebar. The complete bike weights 14.5 pounds.
My first impressions on my first ride with the SL4 was WOW! It is very responsive and the acceleration is amazing. Very stiff and comfortable.

To me, both bikes are very different. My Dogma will be my bike for the flats, it is fast. The SL4 will be used for the climbs and actually is set up for all around riding.


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## mykol77

Very nice bikes. Your view from your place ain't bad either. I've heard a lot of good things regarding the SL4. In fact, my next build might well be an SL4...or a 'gasp' Venge.


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## JC1974

mykol77 said:


> Very nice bikes. Your view from your place ain't bad either. I've heard a lot of good things regarding the SL4. In fact, my next build might well be an SL4...or a 'gasp' Venge.


I'm sure you will be happy with the SL4 or the Venge. I rode both and for my needs the Sl4 was a better choice


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## mykol77

JC1974 said:


> I'm sure you will be happy with the SL4 or the Venge. I rode both and for my needs the Sl4 was a better choice


Can you be more specific on the differences on both (Venge and SL4)? I've heard the Venge isn't as stiff, it's clumsy at low speeds but great at higher cruising speed? What'll be perfect for me is a comparo between the SL4, Venge, and Dogma 2 since these are the three that I'm eyeing for my next build.


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## JC1974

mykol77 said:


> Can you be more specific on the differences on both (Venge and SL4)? I've heard the Venge isn't as stiff, it's clumsy at low speeds but great at higher cruising speed? What'll be perfect for me is a comparo between the SL4, Venge, and Dogma 2 since these are the three that I'm eyeing for my next build.


You are correct about the Venge, I heard the same thigs from my LBS and the reviews that I read. I wanted to make my own conclusions. On my test ride the Venge did not seem comfortable, but it was fast. For climbs I felt like the venge would perform like my Dogma, slow and sluggish although honestly I could not test it on the climbs during my test ride. The Venge does look hot from a aesthetics point of view. 
On the other hand, the SL4 was very responsive and acceleration was impressive. It was stiff and comfortable. I rode my SL4 yesterday and did about 60 miles over flats and climbs and I was always surprised how well it performed in every condition. To me the SL4 is better for all around riding, whereas the Venge will perform best when it is pushed at higher speeds. Both are great choices, it all depends on your needs, but ride both and make your own comparisons.
I have not tested the Dogma 2 but from my understand it is supposed to be stiffer &more aero than the Dogma 60.1. Personally, if I was starting again I would start with the Dogma 2, just personal choice. There is something special about this Italian bike that I love and continue to love with my dogma 60.1 after 2 years. I have 3 road bikes, Colnago Dream, Dogma 60.1 and my newest SL4.....BUT the one bike that I baby and smile when I see is my Dogma.


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## mykol77

JC1974 said:


> You are correct about the Venge, I heard the same thigs from my LBS and the reviews that I read. I wanted to make my own conclusions. On my test ride the Venge did not seem comfortable, but it was fast. For climbs I felt like the venge would perform like my Dogma, slow and sluggish although honestly I could not test it on the climbs during my test ride. The Venge does look hot from a aesthetics point of view.
> On the other hand, the SL4 was very responsive and acceleration was impressive. It was stiff and comfortable. I rode my SL4 yesterday and did about 60 miles over flats and climbs and I was always surprised how well it performed in every condition. To me the SL4 is better for all around riding, whereas the Venge will perform best when it is pushed at higher speeds. Both are great choices, it all depends on your needs, but ride both and make your own comparisons.
> I have not tested the Dogma 2 but from my understand it is supposed to be stiffer &more aero than the Dogma 60.1. Personally, if I was starting again I would start with the Dogma 2, just personal choice. There is something special about this Italian bike that I love and continue to love with my dogma 60.1 after 2 years. I have 3 road bikes, Colnago Dream, Dogma 60.1 and my newest SL4.....BUT the one bike that I baby and smile when I see is my Dogma.


Thank you for the very detailed response. Yes, if budget is no concern I would definitely go with the Dogma 2. Like you said, looking at my Dogma always brings a smile to my face. The value of an SL4 is hard to ignore though. This is why it might be a hard decision when the time comes. Oh well...what problems we have.


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## zaragarcia

*Zipp 303 FC fitting SL4*

Hello JC1974,

I have just purchased Zipp 303 FC for my SL3 Roubaix S works, but would like to change to the SL4 Tarmac. On the Zipp website they say the 303's will have problems with the Specialized Venge and SL4. Is there adequate room for the rims in the stays? I was hoping to have a similar setup as in your picture. Perfect looking bikes!
Cheers for any help.


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## JC1974

zaragarcia said:


> Hello JC1974,
> 
> I have just purchased Zipp 303 FC for my SL3 Roubaix S works, but would like to change to the SL4 Tarmac. On the Zipp website they say the 303's will have problems with the Specialized Venge and SL4. Is there adequate room for the rims in the stays? I was hoping to have a similar setup as in your picture. Perfect looking bikes!
> Cheers for any help.


I am aware that the Zipp website warns against using Zipp FC on SL4 but I have NO issues at all. Note that my SL4 came factory built with Zipp 404 FC Tubulars but I personally wanted Zipp 303 FC CC since I already own a set of 404's. Again, I have no issues with this set up. My LBS is selling Venge and SL4 with both 404 and 303 FC CC and they seem to be the wheels of choice.


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## scarab$

JC1974 said:


> For climbs I felt like the venge would perform like my Dogma, slow and sluggish....


Dogma "slow and sluggish" on climbs? Check the rider... it's not the bike.


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## antihero77

My dogma2 climbs like a dream


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## jathanas

scarab$ said:


> Dogma "slow and sluggish" on climbs? Check the rider... it's not the bike.





antihero77 said:


> My dogma2 climbs like a dream


+1

I haven't weighed my Doggie but I'm sure it is not lighter than the BMC SLR01 it replaced. It climbs just as well if not better because it is stiffer. That's so much more noticeable than a few grams here and there.


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## jram

beautiful machines


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## sclyjs

What size is your Dogma 2? How tall are you and what is your inseam? Just trying to get some ideas on frame size on Dogma 2. Are you happy with the length of seatpost exposed? Thanks,


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## mykol77

sclyjs said:


> What size is your Dogma 2? How tall are you and what is your inseam? Just trying to get some ideas on frame size on Dogma 2. Are you happy with the length of seatpost exposed? Thanks,


I have a 53 dogma with a 110 stem and I wish it had more of its seatpost exposed. I was planning to get a 51.5 Dogma 65.1 but according to their website they seem to have changed the geometry now the 51.5 head tube height will be unmanageable for me without a stack of spacers.

I'm 5'10" 30" pant inseam.


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## sclyjs

mykol77 said:


> I have a 53 dogma with a 110 stem and I wish it had more of its seatpost exposed. I was planning to get a 51.5 Dogma 65.1 but according to their website they seem to have changed the geometry now the 51.5 head tube height will be unmanageable for me without a stack of spacers.
> 
> I'm 5'10" 30" pant inseam.


Thanks for the quick reply. I'm 5' 8 1/2" with pan inseam of 30". I'm hoping 51.5 with stem of 110 is the right size for me.


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## aothinh

How complicated is in choosing right bike. the fatest ride is the lightest one is it?


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## aothinh

mykol77 said:


> Bought a used S-Works SL3 frame from Ebay last week. I should finish building it up with Red gruppo this week. I'm dying to ride it and see how it compares to my Dogma. I'll probably give out a ride report after a few months of riding the SL3. For those who have both the Dogma and S-Works SL3, can you give me comparison report between the two? Thanks!


The latest is the best?


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## mykol77

The lightest bike isn't necessarily the best in my opinion, the most comfortable with a healthy amount of stiffness and good handling is in my opinion good criterions for a "best" bike.

In my situation, I sold the SL3 because I found it to be to harsh on both the rear and front triangles. Although way lighter than my Dogma I found the harshness too much. I felt like I was bouncing all over the rode specially when on a descent.

I have been hearing and reading very good things about the Dogma 65.1 though, they are saying that its got the renowned comfort of the earlier Dogmas with increased improvement in agility and road feedback. Hmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,


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## antihero77

I was told the 65.1 is much more of a harsh ride then the dogma 2


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