# Le Champ Ti - Best Deal???



## tbassak (Jan 12, 2007)

Which model is the best deal and why?? Is the Force model worth $500 more for the upgraded components, cockpit and wheelset over the Rival version? How about the $300 more for the Ultegra "SL" model vs the standard Ultegra version? Would I be better of buying the lower end and upgrading myself?

Thanks!


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

You're never better off buying lower end components with plans to upgrade later. Since it's doubtful that you'll wear out the lower end stuff anytime in the near future, you'll either be stuck with wishing you'd bought the better stuff to begin with, or buying the better parts -- which basically amounts to buying your components twice.


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## quatt (Aug 1, 2011)

The best deal is when BD releases a di2 version of the team ti this winter for 2012.


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## sgalante (May 5, 2009)

I was waiting to see if Motobecane would have a Force equipped Ti bike, and it wasn't until I read your post, that I even saw it on the website. Since I am not really a great rider, the decision if the Force version is worth the extra $500, is only a guess mechanically. I thought I would do a little research. According to what I found price wise on the Competitive Cyclist (CC) webpage, given the exact same chain and cassette, the Force group itself sells for $374 more than the Rival group, also comparing the Mavic Equipe to the Mavic Aksium wheels, the difference there is $200. So combined, the difference if you were to part out just the groups and wheels, would be $574. The Ultegra 6700 group is almost exactly $100 less than the Force group (CC), so the prices seem to be right in line, with what it would cost to part these items out. Obviously, BikesDirect, doesn't pay CC prices, but I would think that the pricing is appropriate.

On a side note, I really like the looks of the black decals on the Rival and Ultegra bikes better than the red decals on the Force equipped bike. I think I like the hollow black decals on the SRAM Red equipped Ti bike even more. That wouldn't be my deciding factor, since I can have new decals made by my sister in the sign business for free, but I would prefer not to have to do that.

Hope that sheds a little light on the subject.


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## tbassak (Jan 12, 2007)

*Le Champ Ti*

Thanks for the input everyone.


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## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

FWIW I'm a big fan of the lower-end components if the price is right, whether Campy, Shimano, or SRAM. You usually give up a pound on the group and save enough to buy some better, lighter wheels which will put you about where you would have been weight-wise with the lighter group. Function between, say, 105 and DA or Rival and Force is imperceptible (to me) and you gain the cheaper group's more durable steel hardware bits over titanium.


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## Weav (Jun 21, 2009)

Agree with Mike. Rival works just as good as Force, although a bit heavier, but not heavy. I like the aesthetics of Force, best looking groupset on the market IMO. If I could afford it I would go with Force, if budget is tight I'd go with Rival. Ultegra/105 same thing. Also putting your money in wheels is a much better benefit than upgrading groups.


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## Gary in WI (Oct 14, 2009)

*One Man's View*

I have owned the Ultegra/FSA version for almost two years (7,000+ miles). I am pleased with the bike -- I rode it on a 3800 cross country ride this summer and it performed flawlessly.

That being said, I think the outstanding value "sweet spot" is the Ti Heat at $1599, which was not available when I bought my bike. 

Why? First, it's $100 less expensive. Second, it has the full component group, unlike my bike which is a Shimano/FSA/Cane Creek mix. And lastly, the Ultegra 6700 brifters seems to be prone to early cable fraying in the shift head, which has caused some owners to recommend yearly replacement. If not caught early, the broken cable can get stuck in the brifter which is a tricky repair.


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## marcalans (Aug 13, 2011)

*Always go with better components if you ride a lot*



Mike Overly said:


> Function between, say, 105 and DA or Rival and Force is imperceptible (to me) and you gain the cheaper group's more durable steel hardware bits over titanium.


I strongly disagree. I use both 105 and Ultegra and easily perceive more refined performance and response with Ultegra. I don't have much experience with SRAM, but do like that the shift lever is separate from the brake lever and that you can pull the shift lever backward towards you before shifting in order to minimize reach, especially while descending fast in the drops. My advice is to always go with better components if you actually will be spending many hours on the bike and can afford the upgrade. You will appreciate it and it is more cost effective in the long run. If you are a casual rider or weekend warrior, go with the less expensive group and upgrade later, if necessary.

BTW, I prefer the red decals on the *Ti Fire* because they help establish an overall red color scheme, if you are so inclined to pimp up the bike with other red accents, such as bar tape, tires, saddle, QRs, etc.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

quatt said:


> The best deal is when BD releases a di2 version of the team ti this winter for 2012.


BD does offer a CF bike with Shimano Di2 for $3600.


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## quatt (Aug 1, 2011)

cda 455 said:


> BD does offer a CF bike with Shimano Di2 for $3600.


Yes I know, just saying that they might release a spec titanium with di2 this winter.


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## jmoy76 (Nov 22, 2011)

Hi everyone... I'm a new cyclist and new to the forums. Just got my first road bike this past April year and already have the itch to upgrade, with my eyes on the Le Champ Ti, but I have a question.

Can anyone explain the 1/2 lb weight difference between the Le Champ SL ($2000) and Le Champ Ti ($1700)? I did a comparison of the specs and checked the mfr weights for each of those differences, and from what I can tell, these 2 bikes should be virtually the same weight.

Here's the differences in specs btwn the non-SL and SL versions and corresponding weight differences:

- Cane Creek vs Ultegra brakes: + 3g
- Aksium vs Krysium Equipe wheels: + 45g
- FSA compact double vs Ultegra std double: - 74g (note: non-SL crankset is lighter than the SL)
- Ritchey Pro vs WCS stem: +5g
- Pro vs WCS bars: +27g
- Pro vs WCS seatpost+ 4g

Unless I screwed something up, the non-SL should be only 10g heavier, but the BD site specs the non-SL at 16.9 to 17.75 lbs, vs the SL at 16.4 to 17.25 lbs. What gives? These bikes have the exact same frame and fork, don't they?

FWIW, I'd probably go w/ the non-SL anyways because I want the compact double, but the SL looks like a poorer value unless you want the std double or want to brag that you have a full Ultegra groupset.


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

jmoy76 said:


> These bikes have the exact same frame and fork, don't they?
> 
> FWIW, I'd probably go w/ the non-SL anyways because I want the compact double, but the SL looks like a poorer value unless you want the std double or want to brag that you have a full Ultegra groupset.


Welcome to the forum.

What are you riding currently?

The SL has the fork with the carbon steerer, while the non-SL steerer is Al. This wouldn't account for 1/2 lb, though (I think).

You are making the mistake of taking the provided weight estimates too seriously.

I chose the SL, even though I probably would have picked a compact crank if given the choice. One reason was the carbon-steerer fork. And I did want all Ultegra, though I don't think it's just for "bragging rights."


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## jmoy76 (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm currently riding a Fuji Newest 1.0. I actually like the bike a lot. It's a great first road bike, and I got a pretty good deal on it (~$650, Al frame, carbon fork, with Tiagra/105 mix).

The bike, however, is pretty heavy (~25lbs), so I definitely want something much lighter, and probably why I'm so curious about the weights of these 2 bikes.

When you say I'm taking the mfr weights too seriously, does that mean that there's enough variability that the SL could be 1/2lb lighter, but could also be the same (or perhaps even heavier) than the non-SL?

Regarding the carbon steerer, does this have any benefit vs Al besides weight?


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

jmoy76 said:


> I'm currently riding a Fuji Newest 1.0. I actually like the bike a lot. It's a great first road bike, and I got a pretty good deal on it (~$650, Al frame, carbon fork, with Tiagra/105 mix).
> 
> The bike, however, is pretty heavy (~25lbs), so I definitely want something much lighter, and probably why I'm so curious about the weights of these 2 bikes.


First - how are you weighing your bike? With pedals and accessories on my 1987 entry level steel road bike weighs in at 23 & 1/2 lbs w/out pedals, so I'd be very surprised if that's how much yours weighs in an apples-to-apples comparison.



jmoy76 said:


> When you say I'm taking the mfr weights too seriously, does that mean that there's enough variability that the SL could be 1/2lb lighter, but could also be the same (or perhaps even heavier) than the non-SL?
> 
> Regarding the carbon steerer, does this have any benefit vs Al besides weight?


Carbon steerer - nah, probably only weight. It was not so much that the steerer tipped me from the $1700 bike to the $2000 SL, but more that I might have considered the $2100 Force bike, but it not having the carbon steerer and being a shift (ha-ha) to SRAM persuaded me to stick with the SL.

As for not taking weights too seriously - there are not just the BD/MB provided bike weights, but also all the weights provided by the component suppliers that you are trying to add up and reconcile. I have no doubt that the SL weighs less than the non-SL Ultegra, but by how much? I don't think you should decide this based on weight, but rather which components you want. I also wanted the Ultegra brakes, and the crankset (with fancy big chainring) is supposed to be super-stiff - said to be desirable if going to electronic shifting in the future (of course, one could just buy a new crankset then if spending so much money).

As documented in the "how much does your BD bike weigh" thread, my 51cm SL is just over 17 lbs, as shipped, w/out pedals, reflectors, spoke-protector.


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## jmoy76 (Nov 22, 2011)

Thanks for your input. I think the SL would be a lot more enticing for me if it had a compact double. I've got a lot of big hills around me that are already difficult enough on my triple granny gear, which has the same gear ratio as a easiest gear on a CD (though I wonder if dropping 6lbs off my bike weight would make a std double manageable).

I weighed my Fuji using a bathroom scale. Probably not the most accurate, but that's all I've got. Includes seat bag, head and taillights, computer. Mfr spec'd weight is already 23.38 lbs.


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## wooglins (Sep 20, 2011)

I like the Ultegra myself. It reminds me of Deore XT before XTR came out. Gets it done is durable, and not so light it can be problematic.

Have always love SRAM, especially grip shift in the mtb world. Not sure I like their components though. Shimano just seems to shift more smoothly. THey do look cool though.


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## PhotoJoe (Mar 8, 2011)

I think the Force is the sweet spot, but I just can't get my head wrapped around the decal colors. Maybe they look better in person. Still wish the outlines would be available on more models. Those look HAWT!


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## MattintheCrown (Jul 6, 2011)

This thread kinda covers my struggles. I've decided a couple of months ago that I'm going to get one these, and started saving money; initially, I was definitely going to go with the SL (ultegra), but of late, I've been hemming and hawing a bit. I hadn't seriously considered SRAM previously, but now that I am, that makes the choice all the harder. This will be my first road bike, and basically, I'm looking to buy a bike that I'll be happy with for a long time, so I want components that I won't regret next year.

I think as far as SRAM/Shimano goes, a field-test of the two styles at the LBS is in order; I understand that people will tend to favor one over the other, so that cuts down half the choices.

But from there, I don't know. From what I'm reading on these forums, SRAM's groups are all quite similar in function, and differ mainly in weight; based on that, I'd be tempted to save some money and go with the Heat; but then, the Force components look cooler; but then, the decals on the Fire are bright red and more obnoxious. Drop some extra dough, and you can get the Inferno, which gets you the better Ksyrium Elite wheelset. Ditto on the Shimano side... and on the Shimano side, the extra dough also buys you the best looking stickers (but, then, the DA is $800 more than Ultegra, where as the Red is only $500 more than the Force). Too many variables!


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## PhotoJoe (Mar 8, 2011)

Looking at the Fire, I think the logos are Photoshopped to be red. The shadows and highlights don't match up. With that said, I'm wondering if they look better in person.

I'll tell ya, I"m sorta tempted to buy the Gravity with Force for $699 (until the 31st) and a Ti frame. Swap the parts over and have the outline letters. Total outlay - $1700. Wheels are a step down, as are brakes, if I remember correctly. I'm not going to do it, but it had me thinking for a few days.


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## MattintheCrown (Jul 6, 2011)

PhotoJoe said:


> Looking at the Fire, I think the logos are Photoshopped to be red. The shadows and highlights don't match up. With that said, I'm wondering if they look better in person.
> 
> I'll tell ya, I"m sorta tempted to buy the Gravity with Force for $699 (until the 31st) and a Ti frame. Swap the parts over and have the outline letters. Total outlay - $1700. Wheels are a step down, as are brakes, if I remember correctly. I'm not going to do it, but it had me thinking for a few days.


I have access to a heat gun (the type used to remove paint from houses and what not), so I'm leaning towards the Fire; if I don't like the decals, off they go. Hell, I like the bare titanium look in any case.


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

MattintheCrown said:


> I have access to a heat gun (the type used to remove paint from houses and what not), so I'm leaning towards the Fire; if I don't like the decals, off they go. Hell, I like the bare titanium look in any case.


I thought in theory that I would like the bare titanium look, but someone's photo (don't remember where) of their LeChamp Ti frame w/out the downtube "MOTOBECANE" gave me pause - I agree with someone who said that there needs to be _something_ there. (I may yet remove the decal, but I want to have something ready to go in its place.)

It may be because the downtube is so big, which may not be so apparent from the side-on product shot. The downtube is triangulated, so it looks thickest when viewed from above and to the side. The top tube, on the other hand, looks tiny where it meets the headtube, at least to eyes accustomed to viewing a typical modern carbon frame.


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## MattintheCrown (Jul 6, 2011)

paulfeng said:


> I thought in theory that I would like the bare titanium look, but someone's photo (don't remember where) of their LeChamp Ti frame w/out the downtube "MOTOBECANE" gave me pause - I agree with someone who said that there needs to be _something_ there. (I may yet remove the decal, but I want to have something ready to go in its place.)
> 
> It may be because the downtube is so big, which may not be so apparent from the side-on product shot. The downtube is triangulated, so it looks thickest when viewed from above and to the side. The top tube, on the other hand, looks tiny where it meets the headtube, at least to eyes accustomed to viewing a typical modern carbon frame.


Eh, I'm not positive I'd remove it, but really, I'm not that hung up on appearance. It's more a matter of, if the stickers burn the retinas, I know that bare titanium wouldn't bother me.

Since you have the bike, you can answer: do these stickers appear to be applied over the clear coat? That's the impression I have from reading other posts, but I'd like to get it confirmed.


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

MattintheCrown said:


> Since you have the bike, you can answer: do these stickers appear to be applied over the clear coat? That's the impression I have from reading other posts, but I'd like to get it confirmed.


I'll need to re-check at home, but I don't think there is a clear coat at all, just bare metal. Or maybe someone will chime in here and tell me that I'm daft.


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## lardo (Aug 16, 2011)

I have a BD Ti LC bike and there is no clear coat. The decals are painted/applied over the bare Ti. You can easily remove the logos by soaking a napkin or towel that's roughly the same size of the logo with nail polish remover, then wrap the soaked towel with plastic/saran/food wrap to prevent the nail polish remover from quickly evaporating. After 15 minutes, it should easily come off. If not, resoak the napkin and/or let it sit longer.


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## MattintheCrown (Jul 6, 2011)

^Wow, that's crazy, I'd never even considered no clear coat. That alloy must be mad oxidation resistant. Sounds like removing the decals is a breeze if one's so inclined.


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## lardo (Aug 16, 2011)

I guess I should add that I've never done that myself on a Ti frame, so proceed with caution. If someone wants to be safe, they can check the soaking every couple minutes.

But yes, Ti is very resistant to chemicals.


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

MattintheCrown said:


> ^Wow, that's crazy, I'd never even considered no clear coat. That alloy must be mad oxidation resistant. Sounds like removing the decals is a breeze if one's so inclined.


I'm just quoting here (i.e., I can't say if these facts are right, but from Titanium Metals Corporation:



> Titanium metal's corrosion resistance is due to a stable, protective, strongly adherent oxide film. This film forms instantly when a fresh surface is exposed to air or moisture. According to Andreeva^(1) the oxide film formed on titanium at room temperature immediately after a clean surface is exposed to air is 12-16 Angstroms thick. After 70 days it is about 50 Angstroms. It continues to grow slowly reaching a thickness of 80-90 Angstroms in 545 days and 250 Angstroms in four years. The film growth is accelerated under strongly oxidizing conditions, such as heating in air, anodic polarization in an electrolyte or exposure to oxidizing agents such as HNO3, C(R)O3, etc.
> 
> The composition of this film varies from TiO2 at the surface to Ti2O3, to TiO at the metal interface^(2). Oxidizing conditions promote the formation of TiO2 so that in such environments the film is primarily TiO2. This film is transparent in its normal thin configuration and not detectable by visual means.
> 
> A study of the corrosion resistance of titanium is basically a study of the properties of the oxide film. The oxide film on titanium is very stable and is only attacked by a few substances, most notably, hydrofluoric acid. Titanium is capable of healing this film almost instantly in any environment where a trace of moisture or oxygen is present because of its strong affinity for oxygen.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

MattintheCrown said:


> ^Wow, that's crazy, I'd never even considered no clear coat. That alloy must be mad oxidation resistant. Sounds like removing the decals is a breeze if one's so inclined.


that's the whole point of titanium ... it doesn't oxidize -- or does, but very slowely. I've never seen an unpainted titanium frame that's been clear coated. It's not necessary. Yes, removing the decals with acetone is pretty simple.


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## MattintheCrown (Jul 6, 2011)

Interesting. Had to look up angstroms. Turns out, they're .1nm. I guess it develops a natural oxidant patina. I wonder if acetone reacts with it. Maybe it'd be better to try the heat gun first.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

MattintheCrown said:


> Interesting. Had to look up angstroms. Turns out, they're .1nm. I guess it develops a natural oxidant patina. I wonder if acetone reacts with it. Maybe it'd be better to try the heat gun first.


You'll still probably end up using acetone to get some of the decal glue off the frame. Just use acetone to start with -- it won't harm the metal in your frame. As far as the "patina" goes, an occasional rub down with light oil after cleaning will keep your bike looking shiny.


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