# ?? modern drivetrain on classic frame



## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

Thinking about converting to a modern drivetrain for my classic Cilo steelie (original owner) using Microshift 10 speed setup. It currently has a Shimano 105 6 speed with (yes) Biopace chainwheels. Still one of the nicest riding bikes I've ever owned.

A main motivator is that the wheels are starting to pop spokes occasionally and the rims are getting iffy. Replacing the wheels is so expensive and I have modern Shimano/SRAM wheels and cassettes leftover from other builds.

The bike has an English bottom bracket, square taper, probably 68mm (haven't measured it).

1) Will the 10 speed gear work the current crankset? (the Biopace does not bother me, but the gearing is tall) Is chainwheel spacing an issue? Will the 10 speed chain work on the old chainrings?

2) Can a modern crank and bottom bracket be installed? If so, what do I need to know?

Thanks!


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I'd definitely change out the biopace crankset.

If the BB is nice and smooth then this is a good replacement that will bolt right on Stronglight Impact JIS Double Chainset Road, Chainsets, CHAINSETS ROAD. They do a compact too.

If the BB needs replacing then it's no problem to put a modern BB and crank on there. Shimano's external BB system and cranks are good and very simple to install.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

bikerjulio said:


> I'd definitely change out the biopace crankset.
> 
> If the BB is nice and smooth then this is a good replacement that will bolt right on Stronglight Impact JIS Double Chainset Road, Chainsets, CHAINSETS ROAD. They do a compact too.
> 
> If the BB needs replacing then it's no problem to put a modern BB and crank on there. Shimano's external BB system and cranks are good and very simple to install.


That Stronglight crankset is lovely.

Good to hear about the BB. But do I need to change out the crank to get it to work? Without doing the crankset, the Microshift is about $160, reusing wheels and cassette.

If I need to change too much stuff, I'd probably go with a Campy Veloce silver setup, but then I need to come up with a new rear wheel. (build would run about $550)

A whole Tiagra setup could be done for about $350 reusing a wheelset. Definitely the cheapest package. If only the weren't so fugly, especially the crank (IMO).


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I am all for it, better riding experience over all IMO.

One of mine:
1972 Schwinn Chrome Paramount I got a a frameset.
Chorus 10s crankset with record fr DR. Rear is Shimano 10s cogs and chain DR. Wheel built to 126mm with A23 rims and 14/15 drive side spoke, DT Revo elsewhere. Barcon indexed Dura Ace 10s. More retro on the brakes, original rear caliper all polished up, front a Grand Comp NOS piece I had for years. Conti All season 28C.

I had some TRP brake RRL SR drillium levers, but they wound up on another build and I just used Tektro520s, and a Ti Stem with TTT bars I had because it was the right fit for me. NOS Ultegra polished Aero post and a rare T-gear pinnacle saddle. 

I love riding this bike, and love the functional retro thing it has going on myself... You have heard/seen the term century bike, this one is a bike yo can ride for doubles and beyond. How is that for functionality goes retro, or visa verse.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> But do I need to change out the crank to get it to work?


I'd have to think your old Biopace rings are worn, and I know that front shifting can suffer and chain drop become more likely with a 10-speed chain on worn rings.

But I cannot tell you for sure. You could try it and see.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

robt57 said:


> 1972 Schwinn Chrome Paramount I got a a frameset.


Lovely ride. I was looking at a chromed Paramount when I bought my Gitane Super Corsa (all Campy) back in the early '70's.



bikerjulio said:


> I'd have to think your old Biopace rings are worn, and I know that front shifting can suffer and chain drop become more likely with a 10-speed chain on worn rings.
> 
> But I cannot tell you for sure. You could try it and see.


I hadn't even thought about the Biopace rings being a problem with a modern front shifter. Was more thinking about the ring spacing and the teeth being too wide.

The Cilo chainrings are actually in very good shape. I bought the Cilo after the Gitane got stolen, got married, had kids, took up MTB, bike sat in the attic for 20 years until my son got me back into road riding.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

If weight isn't a problem this crank is what I'm using
Alloy Compact Double 34/50 Chainset - $40.25
Made by Sugino (in fact it's their XD2 compact crankset), JIS and works like a charm. The Stronglight chainrings work well on it, as I had swapped the big ring for a 46T then back to 50T.

I'm also using MicroShift STI on my road bike (R10 shifters with Centos F&R derailleurs), Shimano Tiagra 12-28 cassette and Shimano Ultegra cables. Working very nicely, but not a weight weenie set up in any way, shape, of form. Didn't cost much to buy though, and the mechanicals are similar to Shimano's (except for the shifters, closer to Campy kinda-sorta).


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Not retro, but not Shimano 11 speed modern either, Just pricey!










I think that is both really pretty and really pretty expensive too!

I have some Sugino XP forged, perfect and cheap for an excellent crank if you can find NOS. One is a triple on my Bridgesone I redid, the other as a climbing double with the granny removed and narrow BB set up. 110 BC and square taper IS.

I think it looks good for the era of the bike. The Bridgestone is indexed 9s rear.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

AJ88V said:


> Lovely ride. I was looking at a chromed Paramount when I bought my Gitane Super Corsa (all Campy) back in the early '70's.


It showed up on the local Craigslist. When I realized how spot on the fit was after all the numbers/meas. I offered over his asking to put myself to the front of the line. I would have even paid more than the 300.00 I did, it had a new Campy BB, good Campy Headset, and minimal wear and tear with a few small dents. Not mint by any leans, but I got it to ride.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

How much time do you have to test? 

I'd just build up your bike, and test it out before ordering new cranks. If you have 135mm cranks, you can also get new rings pretty cheaply.

I've jumped to 9s with my old Campy cranks without problems. 10s or 11s is coming soon (I hope)... on something. I think the the internal spacing of the chains is supposed to be about the same, so the primary difference in 8,9,10s chains is the plate thickness and chain pin length.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

Now that I think of it, I actually have a 'modern' Bontrager crankset for square spindle sitting in my junk pile. Kind of beat up, but serviceable.



junior1210 said:


> I'm also using MicroShift STI on my road bike (R10 shifters with Centos F&R derailleurs), Shimano Tiagra 12-28 cassette and Shimano Ultegra cables. Working very nicely, but not a weight weenie set up in any way, shape, of form. Didn't cost much to buy though, and the mechanicals are similar to Shimano's (except for the shifters, closer to Campy kinda-sorta).


Interested to hear your thoughts on the MicroShift. Besides being cheap, I like that it's sort of like the Campy style shifters (my son has a Chorus group on his Paris).


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

Put modern Campy 11 speed on an vintage Ciocc (PDM Squadra) frame last year and have never looked back since.

<a href="https://smg.photobucket.com/user/troutmd/media/DSC_0025.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/troutmd/DSC_0025.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC_0025.jpg"/></a>

<a href="https://smg.photobucket.com/user/troutmd/media/DSC_0026.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/troutmd/DSC_0026.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC_0026.jpg"/></a>

Worked out so well did the same gambit two months ago on this Fondriest X-Status using some Mavic wheels hanging from the rafters.

<a href="https://smg.photobucket.com/user/troutmd/media/673060fb-3d52-4206-ab5c-21a0ae945f27.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/troutmd/673060fb-3d52-4206-ab5c-21a0ae945f27.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 673060fb-3d52-4206-ab5c-21a0ae945f27.jpg"/></a>


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

troutmd said:


> Put modern Campy 11 speed on an vintage Ciocc (PDM Squadra) frame last year and have never looked back since.


Looks lovely. Did you use outboard cups on the bottom bracket like a modern bike? 

I keep going back and forth on this. Do it cheap or do it right. Can't tell you how many times I've had the Campy groupset in my shopping cart and not pulled the trigger. LOL


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

AJ88V said:


> Looks lovely. Did you use outboard cups on the bottom bracket like a modern bike?
> 
> I keep going back and forth on this. Do it cheap or do it right. Can't tell you how many times I've had the Campy groupset in my shopping cart and not pulled the trigger. LOL


<a href="https://smg.photobucket.com/user/troutmd/media/DSC_0029.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/troutmd/DSC_0029.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC_0029.jpg"/></a>

Did both bike using a full group as (for me) it struck the right balance of form and functionality.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

troutmd said:


> Did both bike using a full group as (for me) it struck the right balance of form and functionality.


That's great! Thanks!

Discovered an interesting bit of info this morning: You can use a Campy drivetrain with a Shimano/SRAM cogset *IF* you run a SRAM rear derailleur. From Leonard Zinn in Velo News Can you run Campy shifters with a SRAM drivetrain? Sure, why not? - VeloNews.com

Why do I like this? Because it means that I could buy the Campy drivetrain and use one of my spare wheelsets and Shimano cogs, and all I'll need to buy is a SRAM Rival derailleur (cheap on ebay). Then I can find/buy a Campy-compatible rear wheel at my leisure. Sound like a plan?

Now I only need to come up with $350! LOL!


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

AJ88V said:


> Now that I think of it, I actually have a 'modern' Bontrager crankset for square spindle sitting in my junk pile. Kind of beat up, but serviceable.
> 
> 
> Interested to hear your thoughts on the MicroShift. Besides being cheap, I like that it's sort of like the Campy style shifters (my son has a Chorus group on his Paris).


I like it a lot. I don't have experience with Campy shifters, but I know that I don't like the Shimano system of brake and shifting with the same lever. It's been around a while but it seems like it's more complicated than it needs to be. The pieces all look nice (mine are all chrome), and a little old school. Set up was just like all the rest, with no surprises. The biggest complaint that most have is that the shifters shift hard, loud, and abruptly. The action is positive/definitive, and when you shift, you know you shifted. While the shifters have their detractors, the derailleurs do their job with no hesitation and nice and smooth. I like the shape and feel of the hoods, and the levers all feel solid and well built. Best part is they don't cost much, only a fraction of what Campy and Shimano run.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

AJ88V said:


> thoughts on the MicroShift.



I put a Nashbar set, which are Microshift with Nashbar logos. I got then for 102.00 on sale shipped and put them on my wife's Madone. She loves them and I have the following positive observations.

They downshift under chain load is better than any ERGO or STI shifter I have ridden/owned. Great for my wife as she does not plan ahead, so to speak. Not an issue for me, but not a bad thing either.

Not really anything like Campy IMO. But the way you shift them seems better for smaller hands. My wife likes that the best, especially the front 105 STI swinging the entire brake lever she says. With the MicroShift the brake lever does not swing to shift. The long lever does what a Shimano lever swing does. And to upshift it is like pushing a button/click instead of a small swing of the smaller lever. More counter-intuitive one could argue.

I would use them myself, but I have too many bikes and in fact put her pulled 105s on anther of mine so all my bike that are not bar cons are STI and shift the same. I can not speak to durability though being they are still new with a few rides on them.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

I compared them to Campy since they're the only other shifter I know of that uses a separate two lever system. Small lever shifts to smaller ring (front and rear), bigger lever to bigger ring. I can reach all levers (brake and shift) from the drops without any awkward reaching, and I don't have unusually large hands (too bad for me:frown5. The only complaint I have about Microshifts gear all around is, on the left shifter the small lever to downshift to small chainring is a very heavy click. The shift itself is nice and quick, no jarring or hanging up, but that click is no joke. I'm hoping it will ease up as I use it more and more (only have maybe 400 miles on the set).

Here's the thread for a more complete build history if you're interested;
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bi...p-commuter-experiment-327281.html#post4749629


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

*Retro Panasonic Hipster build in the works...*

Today's cobblings, picked this up last week, it called out to me... With new steel track bars, cottered 50s crankset on it new BB, with leather seat and post. Not sure what era Panasonic frameset. Falt Black Crinkle Powder coated too. That was worth the 80.00 I thought. 










Pulled the 50s Made in England Skip tooth chainring for eBay sale. Parts-bin-i-fied it a little, and rolled it in the subdivision here.

The Geom does not feel nearly as wonky as it looks or I thought it would. I had that front bag on the Paramount, but it changed the handling in a bad way. It seems to change it in a good way on this sled. Sure rides smooth with 32C @ 65 lb.  It is actually pretty comfortable...

I have some barcons and gears for it, need a few bits still. I did not notice someone dremel-ed off the rear DR cable stop. I saw all the others intact and missed that one. So a clamp on, or maybe rivet on one...

The cottered BB looked new and was made in the Ukraine, a first for me. Sealed bearing too. I just went IS for the Ultegra 600 cranks..


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

robt57 said:


> Today's cobblings, picked this up last week, it called out to me... With new steel track bars, cottered 50s crankset on it new BB, with leather seat and post. Not sure what era Panasonic frameset. Falt Black Crinkle Powder coated too. That was worth the 80.00 I thought.


Cool bike. What is that saddle? My brother-in-law has a bike with a saddle like that and it felt instantly wonderful, even it if robbed some power.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

AJ88V said:


> Cool bike. What is that saddle? My brother-in-law has a bike with a saddle like that and it felt instantly wonderful, even it if robbed some power.


Brand I dunno, it was cut on the sides. And yeah, that seat is/was immediately comfortable to the extreme.. I could look/see if you want me to...


Some quick Googling show the saddle may well be a Wrights w3n cut/modded.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

Ok, looks like the modernization plan is a go. Just snagged some lower end Campy Xenon levers off of ebay and will try to build this up on the cheap using a SRAM derailleur.

One of the things that bugs me about upgrading / repairing a classic bike is the cost of the parts. The cheapest component groups are in the $350-$400 range, then add the wheels, and pretty soon you're up to the price of a brand new (lower-end) bike.

Last winter I bought a fairly clean Fuji Roubaix off of Craig's List with the plan of stripping it for parts for the Cilo. The Fuji was so nice that I didn't have the heart to tear it apart. Instead I fixed a few things and sold it for a decent profit. The bike rode very nicely, probably as good as my Cilo. I guess the only real reason to upgrade most classics is the "intangibles" part of it.


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## quikrick1 (Sep 28, 2011)

There is a thread in this section somewhere titled "Neo/Modern Retro let's see yours!" It's an old thread and many of the older images are "lost" but some of the more recent posts show some really cool examples of exactly what you are doing.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/retro-classic/neo-modern-retro-lets-see-yours-47744.html


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

And, all wrapped up [bar tape joke] Pro Retro tape I had in the bin for the occasion. I love creating these little sleds, what a dichotomy the likes of this is among the plastic steeds in the stable too. 

28 lbs as shown..


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

AJ88V said:


> That's great! Thanks!
> 
> Discovered an interesting bit of info this morning: You can use a Campy drivetrain with a Shimano/SRAM cogset *IF* you run a SRAM rear derailleur. From Leonard Zinn in Velo News Can you run Campy shifters with a SRAM drivetrain? Sure, why not? - VeloNews.com
> 
> ...


Good luck with the project. I didn't go the lightest of modern groupsets, but the Fondriest is in the 17 1/2 lbs range.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

troutmd said:


> Good luck with the project. I didn't go the lightest of modern groupsets, but the Fondriest is in the 17 1/2 lbs range.


Well that's as light as my Pinarello, unless I upgrade the crankset! LOL!

Pretty excited to try out the Campy shifters with a SRAM rear derailleur. I figure the worst case is that I end up converting the whole rear to Campy, but it's fun to experiment.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

Latest update: The ebay seller backed out of the sale on the Campy Veloce shifters I had won. Supposedly they are broken or some nonsense. I guess he didn't like the price. In the meantime, Merlin Cycles UK has sold out of the Veloce silver groupset I had my eye on while thinking I had scored on the ebay shifters. Oh well... 

Thinking of a new plan for the Cilo: Get some Campy 11 shifters (Chorus or Record) for my Pinarello, and move the SRAM shifters over to the Cilo! 

I think this combo will work: Campy 11 shifters + SRAM 10 RD + (SRAM or Shimano)11 cassette. Still researching the setup before committing. 

This way the big bucks go into upgrading my best bike and the components from that one filter down onto the Cilo. And my antique Shimano 105 6-speed parts can filter down to my Lotus. (mostly the bar end shifters)


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

AJ88V said:


> I think this combo will work: Campy 11 shifters + SRAM 10 RD + (SRAM or Shimano)11 cassette. Still researching the setup before committing.


You won't find a definitive answer on that combo (or even the more common straight ten setup). I say commit, try and see... worst case scenario, you end up replacing the Sram10 RD with a Campy one.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

AJ88V said:


> I think this combo will work: Campy 11 shifters + SRAM 10 RD + (SRAM or Shimano)11 cassette. Still researching the setup before committing.


I'd find it doubtful that the Campy shifters will work with the SRAM RD out of the box.

As far as I can tell, the derailleurs have more or less the same shift ratio for different models within a brand. So, say you have a 10 speed system, you can mount either a 10 or 11 speed derailleur, although most brands have made a few changes over the years. The big changes for the new cassettes occur in the shifters.

Here is a page on Cable Pull.
Bicycles/Maintenance and Repair/Gear-changing Dimensions - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

They are missing a few data points, but it lists the Campy shift ratio at 1.4 for pre-9 spd, and 1.5 for post 9-spd (changed in the middle of the 9 spd). Modern Shimano is 1.7, and SRAM is either 1.1 or 1.7.

There is a "Shiftmate" that might help if you really wish to mix shifters & RD brands.
Jtek ShiftMate

Just make sure you get the Shimano compatible version of SRAM.

One should note that the cassette spacing is slightly different for Campy vs Shimano. Here is a good comparison of the Campy vs Shimano. The differences are certainly visible, but I couldn't say if it really makes a difference, several people seem to indicate that they are close enough.
Interchange Shimano & Campy 11-Speed Cassettes, Save Your Wheels


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Shimano and Campagnolo - Can't We All Get Along? - Cyclocross Magazine - Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos

Shimergo Conversion ? Campagnolo Veloce 10 spd Powershift Ergos | life on 2 wheels

or just google shimergo


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

Thanks, guys. Especially appreciate the links. The ones Robt57 posted are what I had read before to make me think this would work. Will definitely check out the links CliffordK posted too.

Right now, the freehub on my HED Ardennes wheels may be what spoils this plan. Need to find out if it's the newer 11 speed or the older 10 speed. Thinking it must be the 10 speed, but plan to contact HED with the serial number and see what they say. Otherwise, the freehub alone adds $150 to this plan. Sighhhhh......


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

Update: Just snagged a complete Campy Chorus 10 speed groupset off of ebay (minus cassette and chain). So now I gotta decide if I put that on my Pinarello and move the SRAM Red/Force mix over to the Cilo, or just put the Campy on the Cilo.

I'm thinking that the Campy stuff is 'prestigious' and should actually increase the value of the Pina comparable to the cost of the new (used) groupset. Plus the silver brake calipers and carbon/aluminum derailleur would look awesome on my white/silver/black bike.

On the other hand, the black SRAM stuff will look meh on the Cilo, but the Campy stuff would look awesome there too.

Also considering if I want to live with 39/53 chainrings that are on the Chorus group. Pretty used to compact setup. Might sway it to the Cilo.

We all should have such difficult decisions to make.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I disagree with changing out the stuff, that older stuff will last longer, be easier to fix, and cost less to maintain. There is nothing wrong with Biopace gears, funny how some pros are going back to that concept and yet some here think they're bad. On top of all of that you have a classic bike that shouldn't be bastardized, keep it original...just my opinion...I have several classic steel bikes and I try to keep them all original, on one bike I even have the original like new tires and saddle that came with it in 85! Of course I don't ride on them but if I ever wanted to sell it as all original I would slap those on.


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