# Tokyowheel Experience



## KJP (May 10, 2014)

Spent a couple of days doing all my research, picked the wheel set I wanted, and then waited in anticipation of putting the new wheels on my bike. Wheels were delivered and looked great but I had ordered tubulars instead of clinchers - my mistake and I tried rationalizing keeping the wheels but could not. Called Tokyowheels after work, talked to a real person after 5 PM, expecting all kinds of issues but on the contrary they helped me return the wheels and get the set I wanted. I have rarely seen this kind of service and I rarely post but I was impressed.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

KJP said:


> Spent a couple of days doing all my research, picked the wheel set I wanted, and then waited in anticipation of putting the new wheels on my bike. Wheels were delivered and looked great but I had ordered tubulars instead of clinchers - my mistake and I tried rationalizing keeping the wheels but could not. Called Tokyowheels after work, talked to a real person after 5 PM, expecting all kinds of issues but on the contrary they helped me return the wheels and get the set I wanted. I have rarely seen this kind of service and I rarely post but I was impressed.


Just as I figured. 

Nice shill.


----------



## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

tihsepa said:


> Just as I figured.
> 
> Nice shill.


indeed


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Picture of it didn't happen.


----------



## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

KJP said:


> Spent a couple of days doing all my research...but I had ordered tubulars instead of clinchers


Ummmmmm. ok?


----------



## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

KJP said:


> ... I have rarely seen this kind of service *and I rarely post* but I was impressed.


Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1 

How silly is this ?


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Wow that's great.

You're so great and fantastic and wonderful.

The company helped you so good with your mistake, congratulations.

You should post more and show us all the pictures.

Have a great day.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm always amazed at business owners who pretend to be happy customers and post reviews like this online. I could never bring myself to do it. Didn't stop one of my competitors (and former boss), though... he had glowing Yelp reviews from his wife, his Mom, himself, etc. Had.


----------



## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

hmmm... this is definitely suspicious. This is the second time I've seen a questionable post this regarding this company. Its getting a little ridiculous.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

Hi Guys,

This is the thread you are referring to:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wh...clincher-wheelset-recent-purchase-316433.html

As you can see, I challenged the owner of Tokyowheels to send a pair of tubular rims to my wheel builder of choice for testing. He went one better and is sending a pair of clincher wheels too. My wheel builder will check the build of the wheels and will build up the rims and then post the results on that thread.

I have had since had email correspondence with the owner, James Ferrer and we have also spoken by phone. I believe he is genuine and cannot imagine that he would shill on this thread or even need to, given the reception and accusations he received from myself and others on the thread quoted above and the test that will be carried out and posted here. From what James Ferrer has described to me over the phone, the OP's description of the service he has received from Tokyowheel would not surprise me at all.

On the face of it (and I am only going by my impression via email and phone conversations) James Ferrer seems like a genuinely nice guy who is very enthusiastic about his product, product development and company. The quality of his goods will be under scrutiny in the coming days and we will all be much the wiser as to whether the Tokyowheel product is good, adequate or just plain crap.

In hindsight, I do not believe that the OP in the other thread was a shill either.


----------



## thalo (Jul 17, 2011)

it was successful. I went and checked out the site to see I can get a similar set of wheels for same price from williams.


----------



## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mambo said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> This is the thread you are referring to:
> 
> ...


PlatyPius wonders how many times you could mention PlatyPius in a post. PlatyPius finds it annoying/amusing when someone uses someone's name more than once in a paragraph. PlatyPius says this is why pronouns were invented.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> PlatyPius wonders how many times you could mention PlatyPius in a post. PlatyPius finds it annoying/amusing when someone uses someone's name more than once in a paragraph. PlatyPius says this is why pronouns were invented.


There's nothing like constructive criticism! Though I can think of something worse, referring to oneself in the 3rd person.............


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

thalo said:


> it was successful. I went and checked out the site to see I can get a similar set of wheels for same price from williams.


I am considering the Williams SLC saddle if my test with an SQ labs doesn't work out. It was recommended to me by another forum member as the closest thing to a Specialized Toupe saddle I tried and liked, but as I refuse to buy anything Specialized..............


----------



## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

I love how some of these posts starts with *my research*. What research? What 10 people own these wheels?

That's a large pool of data one can come across in research.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

r1lee said:


> I love how some of these posts starts with *my research*. What research? What 10 people own these wheels?
> 
> That's a large pool of data one can come across in research.


I think you are thinking of research in very narrow terms ie) single brand. When I was "researching" wheels, (which pending the test results mentioned earlier in this thread, to be honest I still am) I researched as many brands as possible often revisiting websites to make comparisons to other wheel brands I discovered on my 'travels'. This "research" took many hours of internet trawling. Tokyowheels is just one of the options I was considering as it was one of a number of brands that seemed to balance price and perceived quality. This led me to pick up on the other Tokyowheel thread on this forum. Whilst the validity of the product has yet to be proven to my satisfaction, kudos to the owner for proving willing to have his wheels and rims subjected to an in depth technical review by an independent specialist who has also previously participated on this forum.


----------



## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

mambo said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> This is the thread you are referring to:
> 
> ...


I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt in the other thread as well... now given this one, I feel like things are a little fishy. I hope it works out well. I think they look like a good, affordable option.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

TricrossRich said:


> I think they look like a good, affordable option.


I hope so because I have paid for that set of rims!


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm becoming a bit amazed at the marketing ploys, why not just post about the product and service and have a contest with a few sets of wheels vs. the cloak and dagger posts.
Send me a set of wheels, I'll review them for build quality, and get 1000 miles put on them to see how they hold up.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

mikerp;4621797 Send me a set of wheels said:


> 1000k miles...damn, you ride a LOT.


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Oxtox said:


> 1000k miles...damn, you ride a LOT.


LOL, good catch. I wasn't paying attention. Typo corrected.


----------



## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

between the two threads, it's hard to keep track of all the dancing sock puppets

As Johnny say to Ed ( at 1:11 below)
"You really think you're fooling everybody don't you?" 

Ed McMahon Appears Drunk on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show 1977 - YouTube


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

KJP said:


> I rarely post


You joined the same day you made this post.

This shilling pretty much destroys any credibility Tokyo Wheel might have had. I loved his line "We build our Manufactured in USA wheels in Tokyo".

I'm sceptical of any rims sent for testing. For all we know Tokyo could have sanded off the decals of an ENVE rim and passed it off as his own. Which seems possible at this point.

This guy is the Ricardo Ricco of rim sellers. Rim maker, nuclear physicist, the whole wazoo.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> You joined the same day you made this post.
> 
> This shilling pretty much destroys any credibility Tokyo Wheel might have had. I loved his line "We build our Manufactured in USA wheels in Tokyo".
> 
> ...


If you read the other thread, you will be able to gather that the wheel builder who is going to test them is very experienced with Enve/Edge rims. As mentioned he actually corrected a design fault in them. I am certain he would pick anything like that up especially as these rims have a very particular rim profile and width not common to most brands. 

Many companies manufacture rims in one country and build them in another.

I joined the forum a couple of years before these threads. Neither Mark Stemmy, the wheel builder or myself have any previous or current association with Tokyowheels. I am just a skeptical forum member who asked a seller to back up his posts and put his money where his mouth was. Any of you are welcome to contact Mark Stemmy the wheel builder at Optimized Cycling Solutions. I know he has already been contacted by a very respected forum member who is also a well known wheel builder in connection to the other thread. It is a mark of my respect for Marks skills that though I am in Southern Europe and he is in California I am getting him to build my wheels for me. We will receive detailed data such as this:

OCS Studio in Cameron Park | Yelp

Rather than letting cynicism take over, lets use some logic. What could Tokyowheels possibly have to gain by shilling on this thread considering the pasting they got for possible shilling previously on the other thread? Especially considering they are submitting material for testing by established forum members. I have asked Mark Stemmy to test ride the wheelset for a few days after he has tested them on his bench. I only weigh 65kg but he is a big lad -well over 6' who will be able to give them a more severe test.

Lets cut some slack and wait for the results. Mark should receive the wheels and rims some time later this week or early the next.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

It is common for shills to start new threads when their old one goes wrong. What could they gain?

For one thing, someone Googling them might read only this thread. That might prevent them from seeing others here and on slowtwitch that are...unfavourable. And full of obvious shills.


IIRC you said you would receive the rims soon? I look forward to your comments. After the nonsense this guy has posted surely you understand the scepticism.

My idea of an independent review is not a select specially prepared rim going directly to an individual reviewer. A true sampling would be multiple independent reviewers such as yourself buying the rims at retail. Then I could see what the product I might buy would be like. That is why I referred to the rebadged ENVE rim.


----------



## JM714 (Jan 22, 2004)

I have no experience riding with Tokyo wheel products. However, I was in my shop a few weeks ago and the guys mentioned the wheels. I said come on how good could they be? Are your riders riding GMR and Baldy on them and they said yes without any issues. So I googled them when I got back to the office and found them. I was dismayed as I saw only 20/24 builds and I weigh 215. So I emailed them. James Ferrer responded that no they didn't do 24/28 builds, but if I went with the Sapim build I could add 22 lbs to their weight limit. It wasn't enough to comfort me. 

My point being that my shop has a few riders on them and they aren't having problems. 

Second point is they were responsive to my email. 

Third I don't have a reason to shill for them, I have been trolling this site for a few years. I hate shills like the rest of you. Maybe they are shilling maybe not. 

Just some input from a longtime reader. By the way my last two wheel sets were from Zen and Fairwheel. Couldn't be happier with either set. Alloy rims, WI hubs and Sapim X-Ray spokes. 

Go ahead and flame away.


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Mambo, I don't think the issue is with your posts, rather it is with the OP of this thread. From my end I'm interested in seeing the results from your build and the factory set of wheels.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

mikerp said:


> Mambo, I don't think the issue is with your posts, rather it is with the OP of this thread. From my end I'm interested in seeing the results from your build and the factory set of wheels.


Hi Mike,

I think it will an interesting exercise. However, I guess however transparent one tries to make things for some members it will be an exercise in futility, not everybody will be satisfied unless the outcome is that they fall apart whilst still in transit .


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

the OP is no more believable than a letter that starts, "Dear Penthouse Forum, I never thought this would happen to me..."

it's very telling that he hasn't posted again since dropping this little nugget on RBR.

I gave him a red chicklet for his feeble efforts.


----------



## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> This shilling pretty much destroys any credibility Tokyo Wheel might have had. I loved his line "We build our Manufactured in USA wheels in Tokyo".
> .


Manufacturer in USA (expensive)
Assembled in Japan (most expensive place for labour?)

then all shipped back to the USA at a competitive price point? that's very interesting.


----------



## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

r1lee said:


> Manufacturer in USA (expensive)
> Assembled in Japan (most expensive place for labour?)
> 
> then all shipped back to the USA at a competitive price point? that's very interesting.


When you make it up you can make it as interesting as you want.


----------



## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

mambo said:


> I think you are thinking of research in very narrow terms ie) single brand. When I was "researching" wheels, (which pending the test results mentioned earlier in this thread, to be honest I still am) I researched as many brands as possible often revisiting websites to make comparisons to other wheel brands I discovered on my 'travels'. This "research" took many hours of internet trawling. Tokyowheels is just one of the options I was considering as it was one of a number of brands that seemed to balance price and perceived quality. This led me to pick up on the other Tokyowheel thread on this forum. Whilst the validity of the product has yet to be proven to my satisfaction, kudos to the owner for proving willing to have his wheels and rims subjected to an in depth technical review by an independent specialist who has also previously participated on this forum.


no offense, but when i state research i assume that you research all competitor brands, even ones that are more/less expensive. The best type of research is to gauge actual customer reviews. You know, people that are on forums like this who have bought and compared to other wheels they have ridden.

I don't know what research you're doing, but if you are going by websites, then you must be sold on all the hype surround every single manufacturer known to manking. Everyone has the best, fastest, best/value etc etc. 

So what were you comparing Tokyo wheels to? Boyds, Williams, Rol?
The next step is to find out who has use the above and get their opinion. But seriously, how would you rate Tokyo wheels, when about 10 people have them? Customer service is great, when you have spare time twidling your thumb.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

r1lee said:


> no offense, but when i state research i assume that you research all competitor brands, even ones that are more/less expensive. The best type of research is to gauge actual customer reviews. You know, people that are on forums like this who have bought and compared to other wheels they have ridden.
> 
> I don't know what research you're doing, but if you are going by websites, then you must be sold on all the hype surround every single manufacturer known to manking. Everyone has the best, fastest, best/value etc etc.
> 
> ...


Your original post implies that the OP had only researched Tokyowheels. This is what I was referring to in my "narrow terms" comment. I researched multiple brands accross the whole price spectrum; Enve, Wheelsmith, Rail, Flo, Yoleo, Farsports, Corima, Rol, Williams, Rolf, Mavic, Campagnolo, Shimano, Easton, Bontrager, Zipp, Fulcrum and quite a few others that I can't think of right now. You will note that some of these brands don't sell tubulars, which is what I am looking to purchase, but I still checked them out. Part of my research was specific to what I was looking for and some just plain curiosity. My way of researching for bike stuff is thorough by necessity as I live in an area where shops do not stock most of these brands and will only order with pre-payment. Firstly I check out forums and get a general overview and consensus of what's good and bad. If I have any doubts I will post a question to get specific opinions. Then I browse the respective websites for specs and finally check reviews by the internet cycling publications. These three things give me a fairly good idea, firstly of which models will best suit what I am looking for and secondly of functionality durability. I also often pick up the phone or email (I spoke to Tune, White Industries and Fairwheel bikes during my research). I found Tokyo wheels as a result of the thoroughness of my research (they definitely do not appear amongst the first carbon wheel options on google) I looked on the forums and then at their website. 

In respect of customer reviews, I do not take these as gospel. These are always going to be subjective to a degree. It is also very difficult for somebody to say that the wheels they just spent 2k on are a heap of crap. Plus it is often difficult to gauge the posters experience. If they have only ridden a cheap, heavy pair of alloy wheels and then try Tokyowheels, whatever the quality or lack of, of the Tokyowheels, that poster is going to think they are the business!

I am guessing (and this is only conjecture on my part) that if we all met up and 'blindfold' tested a set of $3,000 Enve's, a pair of $800 Tokyo wheels and a pair of $500 Farsports ones, the differences would not be in line with the price differences, but rather much closer.


----------



## JamesFerrer (Jan 9, 2014)

*Response From Tokyowheel*



tihsepa said:


> Just as I figured.
> 
> Nice shill.


Hi Everyone,

This is James from Tokyowheel. Sorry I haven't responded to this thread sooner, we're quite busy at Tokyowheel right now. 

Just to make it 100% clear, we would never post fake reviews or Shill. I know it might be hard to believe, but it's true. 

There have been two cases of Tokyowheel reviews being accused of being Shills (this current thread and one other). They both came from similar situations where a customer had a warranty or exchange situation and got above average service. In both cases the customer was very happy and wanted to write a review, and I directed them towards this forum and the slowtwitch forum. They signed up, posted, and got flamed for being a Shill. It's understandable, they certainly looked like fake accounts, with no previous posts. In hindsight I probably should have just asked them to make a youtube review. 

P.S. For the record. All the reviews on our website are also 100% real, and submitted via an after-purchase email based review collection system. 

As many of you might know Tokyowheel sent Mark Stemmy of Optimized Cycling Solutions some wheels to test. That will be a good first step in getting some unbiased info out there for you all. I'd also be interested in any other suggestions for how we should go about gaining the trust of the community. 

We ship wheels all over the world and have a lot of very happy customers. Keep in mind that the negative things posted on these forums are all by non-customers. We'd really like to get the perception of Tokyowheel on these forums inline with reality. The reality is we are a responsible company with a great product, reasonable prices, and exceptional support. So if anyone has any feedback, please let me know. Thanks!


----------



## JamesFerrer (Jan 9, 2014)

tihsepa said:


> _Manufacturer in USA (expensive)_
> _Assembled in Japan (most expensive place for labour?)_
> 
> _then all shipped back to the USA at a competitive price point? that's very interesting._





tihsepa said:


> When you make it up you can make it as interesting as you want.


This is referring to a product we sold in the past in the Japanese market only. It was manufactured in the USA, and then to allow for a lower inventory and greater customization we did the final decals and paint, plus wheel building in Tokyo. We only shipped those wheels, domestically inside of Japan. 

That original quote does sound very odd without the knowledge of the context of the situation. Thanks for letting me clear that up.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Hi James,

Looked through your website. I noticed your brake pads look exactly like the ripoff Reynolds Cryo Blue you can get on ebay (Road Bike Brake Pads Shoes for Carbon Rims Shimano Dura Ace Ultegra 105 10g | eBay).

Can you comment on the effectiveness of these pads?


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

Just to update you Mark 'the wheel whisperer'™ Stemmy (lol) has now received the wheels and rims. He is a bit busy with work at the moment but will get around to checking, testing and reviewing over the coming days.

He will also post how he is going to carry out his evaluation.


----------



## JamesFerrer (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi Deviousalex,

Thanks for your question. As you may have noticed my skill at forum posting is not great, but I will answer your question in the same way I would answer an email question. I apologize in advance if my response gives too much information or if I say something that creates any new conspiracy theories  

The blue brake pads that you asked about are a reasonably good brake pad and we get a lot of positive feedback about braking performance on our wheels with that pad. We've never had a report of any rim overheating or delamination with that pad (or any other pad).

About a month ago we began shipping a different brake with our wheels (we haven't updated the website with this change yet). They are a black brake pad containing a ceramic compound, and we are calling them the CeramicChampion pads. 

The following is an excerpt from our FAQ, which can be found here Contact ? Tokyowheel?

In the past our wheels shipped with our BlueStop™ brake pads, we then upgraded our brake pads to the newest generation of material technology with our black CeramicChampion™ pads . Essentially you'll get more stopping power from these pads then the blue ones, without any additional risk of rim overheating. This is always the trade off with brake pads. More stopping power generally means more friction. These new pads contain a ceramic compound, which helps to reduce heat buildup, and compensate for the additional stopping power. One note is you will likely see a 'dusting' from the pads, as opposed to some pads which leave a rubber residue on the rim, this dusting helps to eliminate heat build-up due to the abnormalities in the way the rubber residue can collect on the rims. A good example of a brake pad that will give you more stopping power at the expense of this type of rubber build up is the Swiss Stop Yellow King, which we also recommend as an over the counter replacement pad.

Thanks for your question Deviousalex, let me know if you have any others or need anything. Thanks.


----------



## metalheart (Sep 3, 2010)

I live near Cameron Park, maybe I will stop in at OCS where the wheels are being tested.........


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

metalheart said:


> I live near Cameron Park, maybe I will stop in at OCS where the wheels are being tested.........


That would be great. Mark "the wheel whisperer™" Stemmy - (I hope he cringes every time I use that moniker he he...) is a great guy. I am sure you will enjoy the visit (PS: He has some great deals available from the best custom frame builder in the world).

It will also be nice to get your opinion on just how impartial his review and test of the wheels will be as the odd poster here and there believes it may all be a set up for Tokyowheel.

Get back to us once you've visited. Also if you don't mind let us know what your impression of the wheels and especially my rims  is.


----------



## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

So we have random customer accused of shilling. Another party who rides to their rescue and happens to have been "sent" a set of rims to be checked out by an LBS (btw, the first google hit for Mr. Stemmy and OCS is a doozy). Now, we have a rep from the company itself weighing in.

Nope. Can't imagine why there would be a conspiracy theory... 

But just to make sure, maybe they should send me a set of wheels to check out. I'll run them by Opus "the rim reader... spoke speaker... hub harmonizer" and we'll see what he says.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

Opus51569 said:


> So we have random customer accused of shilling. Another party who rides to their rescue and happens to have been "sent" a set of rims to be checked out by an LBS. Now, we have a rep from the company itself weighing in.
> 
> Nope. Can't imagine why there would be a conspiracy theory...
> 
> But just to make sure, maybe they should send me a set of wheels to check out. I'll run them by Opus "the rim reader" and we'll see what he says.


It's far too easy to be a cynical hater. But read the various TW threads on here and slowtwitch then try to put your brain in gear and use some logic. I am a long -term member of the forum who has paid for those rims. The owner of Tokyo wheels is in Japan, I am in Europe and Mark Stemmy is in California. I would imagine there are less convoluted ways to set up a conspiracy theory than this.

Earlier in this thread, the owner of TW has asked for suggestions. Why don't you make just one reasonable one rather than just sling mud every which way.

I understand the wheelset may be made available for others to test. Suggest somebody who is a forum member, has expert knowledge of wheels and whose opinion you would trust to review /test them. Surely somebody who has time to write almost 6,000 posts on a forum has time to make just one constructive contribution.

I just take offence to being called a liar.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

mambo said:


> It's far too easy to be a cynical hater. But read the various TW threads on here and slowtwitch then try to put your brain in gear and use some logic. I am a long -term member of the forum who has paid for those rims. The owner of Tokyo wheels is in Japan, I am in Europe and Mark Stemmy is in California. I would imagine there are less convoluted ways to set up a conspiracy theory than this.
> 
> Earlier in this thread, the owner of TW has asked for suggestions. Why don't you make just one reasonable one rather than just sling mud every which way.
> 
> ...


I'm in NorCal and race and I'll gladly test them =]. Please send a set my way.


----------



## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

mambo said:


> It's far too easy to be a cynical hater.
> 
> (Actually, I've trained pretty hard for this most of my adult life...)
> 
> ...


If I call you a liar, mambo, you'll know because those will be the words I use.


----------



## mannymerc (Nov 19, 2013)

Im sure there are plenty of people that have try the wheels and had a good experience with them, I was looking into buying a set just to try out, and if they didnt work as suspected send them back for a refund.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

_(Actually, I've trained pretty hard for this most of my adult life...)_

((The training is paying off!))

_I am a long -term member of the forum
(With 80 posts to date)_

((Some of us have a life))

_who has paid for those rims.

(Since you paid for your set (and I assume you got them for the "reasonable price" you were asking for), why not just post your own review here and be done with it? Why the need to get so personally involved to have TW "put there money where there mouth is" with additional wheels?) _

((I only purchased the rims. TW matched the price I would have paid for Farsports rims. I will post my own review when Mark Stemmy builds them up and sends them over to me. I ordered the rims and received a reasonable price on the basis that they would be tested. It was TW who offered to send an additional set of wheels for testing/review. TW sent their best selling clincher model as this would be most relevant to the majority of potential customers . I want tubular wheels so those will be of no use to me. If the rims build up to Mark’s satisfaction and I like them when I test them, then I will also order a set of wheels for training))

_The owner of Tokyo wheels is in Japan, I am in Europe and Mark Stemmy is in California. I would imagine there are less convoluted ways to set up a conspiracy theory than this.

(Yes, if this were 1885. Since the advent of telecommunications though, it doesn't seem to be all that difficult.)_

((Still unlikely though))

_Earlier in this thread, the owner of TW has asked for suggestions. Why don't you make just one reasonable one rather than just sling mud every which way.

(My suggestion to James Ferrer (sorry, Platy, I couldn't resist) would be to never engage in ridiculous challenges regarding your product. It's a no-win situation. Either the "wheel whisperer" (maybe he doesn't cringe, but I do) hates the wheels... and TW loses credibility... or he loves the wheels... people assume the fix is in... and TW loses credibility. Instead, stick with what you're doing now, talking openly about your product and answering questions.)_ 

((I believe he is now doing exactly as you suggest. Let’s see what Mark’s review and test is like))

_I understand the wheel set may be made available for others to test.

(Really? Since you have no direct connection to TW, though, I'd be curious to know how you've come to understand that?)_

((Of course I have had to have contact with James Ferrer in order to organise and discuss sending the wheels and rims. He asked me to make suggestions and this was one of them. I also gave him the same advice you have just given i.e.) ‘talking openly about your product and answering questions’ – which, he seems to be following)).

_Suggest somebody who is a forum member, has expert knowledge of wheels and whose opinion you would trust to review /test them.

(You're a long-term member and you're asking me to suggest someone? The people I trust are also people I like. I wouldn't subject them to this.)_

((Sorry, but that’s a lame excuse. I have suggested someone who _I trust_ who also happens to be a long-term forum member. The ppeople I trust are obviously noot the people others will necessarily trust. Anybody is free to do the same or make other suggestions, and then it’s up to TW to decide how, if and on what basis they want to proceed.))

Rather than getting involved in a slanging match, let’s wait and see how Mark’s test results and review come out and whether they are sent to someone else for review. Of course, even if I review my set when I receive them – which I will, that would not be credible enough for some)).


----------



## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

mambo said:


> I only purchased the rims. TW matched the price I would have paid for Farsports rims. I will post my own review when Mark Stemmy builds them up and sends them over to me. I ordered the rims and received a reasonable price on the basis that they would be tested. It was TW who offered to send an additional set of wheels for testing/review. TW sent their best selling clincher model as this would be most relevant to the majority of potential customers . I want tubular wheels so those will be of no use to me. If the rims build up to Mark’s satisfaction and I like them when I test them, then I will also order a set of wheels for training
> _
> (You're a long-term member and you're asking me to suggest someone? The people I trust are also people I like. I wouldn't subject them to this.)_
> 
> ...


In for a penny, in for a pound, I suppose... okay.

So, for the record, you received just rims (not full wheels) at a discounted price that matches another vendor (Farsports) "on the basis that they would be tested". You're having those rims built up. If that's the case, you're right. Your review won't be credible, since the build you receive won't be the build the average customer gets buying a complete wheel set from TW. And perhaps I missed it on their site, but I don't see where the average customer can purchase just rims. 

Surely you see how this means you now have a vested interest. You received payment (in the form of the discount) for services you are attempting to render. And the longer and harder you argue for the "test results" you've concocted, the more apparent that becomes. Mr. Stemmy, likewise, will be receiving two complete wheel sets which I'm assuming he'll get to keep once his testing is done. Granted, companies do send products out for review/testing but in this case the company didn't initiate this, you did.

Question #3 below from the TW website FAQ page Information ? Tokyowheel? doesn't help matters.

*Jobs, Sponsorship, and Wholesale <small style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 20px; line-height: 1; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Become part of Team Tokyowheel.</small>*

<button class="btn btn-link" data-toggle="collapse" data-target="#a49" style="color: rgb(66, 139, 202); font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: 1.428571429; margin: 0px 0px 10px; overflow: visible; cursor: pointer; text-align: left; vertical-align: middle; background-image: none; border: 1px solid transparent; padding: 0px; border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-left-radius: 0px; -webkit-user-select: none; -webkit-box-shadow: none; box-shadow: none;">Will Tokyowheel sponsor me in my upcoming races?</button>
<button class="btn btn-link" data-toggle="collapse" data-target="#a48" style="color: rgb(66, 139, 202); font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: 1.428571429; margin: 0px 0px 10px; overflow: visible; cursor: pointer; text-align: left; vertical-align: middle; background-image: none; border: 1px solid transparent; padding: 0px; border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-left-radius: 0px; -webkit-user-select: none; -webkit-box-shadow: none; box-shadow: none;">I would like to work in the cycling industry, is Tokyowheel hiring?</button>
<button class="btn btn-link" data-toggle="collapse" data-target="#a49" style="color: rgb(66, 139, 202); font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: 1.428571429; margin: 0px 0px 10px; overflow: visible; cursor: pointer; text-align: left; vertical-align: middle; background-image: none; border: 1px solid transparent; padding: 0px; border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-left-radius: 0px; -webkit-user-select: none; -webkit-box-shadow: none; box-shadow: none;">I have a lot of influence in my local cycling community, can you give me a discount if I promise to get my friends to buy Tokyowheels.</button>
<button class="btn btn-link" data-toggle="collapse" data-target="#a50" style="color: rgb(66, 139, 202); font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: 1.428571429; margin: 0px 0px 10px; overflow: visible; cursor: pointer; text-align: left; vertical-align: middle; background-image: none; border: 1px solid transparent; padding: 0px; border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-left-radius: 0px; -webkit-user-select: none; -webkit-box-shadow: none; box-shadow: none;">I would like to sell Tokyowheels at my bike shop, how can I get started?</button>
<button class="btn btn-link" data-toggle="collapse" data-target="#51" style="color: rgb(66, 139, 202); font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: 1.428571429; margin: 0px 0px 10px; overflow: visible; cursor: pointer; text-align: left; vertical-align: middle; background-image: none; border: 1px solid transparent; padding: 0px; border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-left-radius: 0px; -webkit-user-select: none; -webkit-box-shadow: none; box-shadow: none;">I would like to be a distributor of Tokyowheel in my country, what should I do?</button>

When you click on it, it returns a 404 File Not Found...


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Opus51569 said:


> In for a penny, in for a pound, I suppose... okay.
> 
> So, for the record, you received just rims (not full wheels) at a discounted price that matches another vendor (Farsports) "on the basis that they would be tested". You're having those rims built up. If that's the case, you're right. *Your review won't be credible*, since the build you receive won't be the build the average customer gets buying a complete wheel set from TW.
> 
> Surely you see how this means you now have a vested interest. You received payment (in the form of the discount) for services you are attempting to render. And the longer and harder you argue for the "test results" you've concocted, the more apparent that becomes. Mr. Stemmy, likewise, will be receiving two complete wheel sets which I'm assuming he'll get to keep once his testing is done.


spot on.


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

From memory, Mambo was shopping for a set of rims to be built up by his wheel builder. TW also sent a built set of rims for comparison/evaluation (wanting to demo their finished product).

I don't really get the living in Europe trusted wheelbuilder in CA thing. Then again, I opted to build my own wheels when a shop didn't get the valve/spoke alignment right.

My observation, some of us have too much time for typing out lengthy responses.

edited to avoid confusion between the various threads.


----------



## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

mikerp said:


> From memory, the OP was shopping for a set of rims to be built up by his wheel builder. TW also sent a built set of rims for comparison/evaluation (wanting to demo their finished product).
> 
> I don't really get the living in Europe trusted wheelbuilder in CA thing. Then again, I opted to build my own wheels when a shop didn't get the valve/spoke alignment right.
> 
> My observation, some of us have too much time for typing out lengthy responses.


The OP here mentioned a wheel set, but mistakenly ordered tubular rims when he wanted clinchers. Maybe I missed it on the TW site, but I only saw wheel sets for sale but if I'm wrong, I'll own that.

As for the lengthy typing, as mambo pointed out, apparently I don't have a life...


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

Opus51569 said:


> In for a penny, in for a pound, I suppose... okay.
> 
> So, for the record, you received just rims (not full wheels) at a discounted price that matches another vendor (Farsports) "on the basis that they would be tested". You're having those rims built up. If that's the case, you're right. Your review won't be credible, since the build you receive won't be the build the average customer gets buying a complete wheel set from TW. And perhaps I missed it on their site, but I don't see where the average customer can purchase just rims.
> 
> ...


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> The OP here mentioned a wheel set, but mistakenly ordered tubular rims when he wanted clinchers. Maybe I missed it on the TW site, but I only saw wheel sets for sale but if I'm wrong, I'll own that.
> 
> As for the lengthy typing, as mambo pointed out, apparently I don't have a life...


My bad, I should not have used "OP" in this discussion (back and forth between yourself and Mambo), I was going back to Mambo's thread on the test (the point of the discussion) at hand.

I've corrected my post to avoid confusion.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

mikerp said:


> I don't really get the living in Europe trusted wheelbuilder in CA thing. Then again, I opted to build my own wheels when a shop didn't get the valve/spoke alignment right.


Hi Mike,

For some background, I met Mark through this forum. As part of my ongoing bike build I was looking at the Sarto frame brand. He had posted that he was selling the Sarto frame brand a while back but then said he was no longer selling Sarto. I pm'd him to ask why (I wanted to check if he had stopped selling Sarto due to quality issues). We got talking and found we had a lot in common, to the point where we are now working together on some serious bike related projects.

As far as I am aware there is not a single professional wheel builder within hundreds of kilometres of where I live. I contacted Wheelsmith who have a good reputation in the UK from where I can get packages sent at good rates, but they were not even answering emails due to workload. Previous to this, Mark had mentioned how meticulous his wheel building process was, so I decided that I would buy the rims and get them sent to him to build my weekend warrior wheels with better hubs that the Far Eastern sellers offer. Also of course, he did help Enve out with a design/manufacturing problem with their rims a while back, so he must have some level of knowledge.

That's what I mean by trusted wheel builder. I don't have direct experience of his wheels, and have not spoken anybody who has ridden his wheels, but I trust him to build me a set of wheels to the best quality that the various parts will allow.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

This has been posted by Mark Stemmy on the other TW thread:

Hi RBR Forum,

This is Mark Stemmy from Optimized Cycling Solutions. For those that have not already been following this thread, I am a wheel builder, custom bike dealer and industry consultant located in Northern California. I’ve been asked by James Ferrer at Tokyo Wheels to evaluate and review a set of their wheels. Brands I have built and/or collaborated with in the past are ENVE, HED, Stan’s, Mavic for rims and Alchemy, White Industries, Chris King, Stealth and Campagnolo for hubs, among others. 
I am very particular about the products I support and having spent 15 years in the silicon manufacturing industry I am very data and process driven. This will be a multi phase review including an initial inspection and evaluation, testing a set myself in the field (I am 6’4” and 235lbs currently), more extensive evaluation including wind tunnel testing against other brands, and a final report with my recommendation.

The current process will be the initial evaluation which will include, but not be limited to:

•	Spoke tension for each spoke
•	Average spoke tension for each side, on both wheels, expressed in kgf (kilograms of force)
•	Standard deviation (variations in total spoke tension, expressed in kgf)
•	Lateral runout (true)
•	Vertical runout (round)
•	Rim and hub dimensions
•	Wheel weight
•	Photos of the wheels, hubs, packaging and included accessories
•	Detailed photos of the inside of the rim at the spoke interface 
•	Measurement of relative hub rotational friction with the QR closed, using proprietary OCS methodology 
•	Final report rolling up both the hard data along with anecdotal observations 

I am working on multiple projects right now so it will likely be a week before I am able to complete the report. I will share a link to the report once it is complete.

I will also be building a set of wheels for Mambo, the rims for which have arrived, so I will be able to do a separate assessment of that process, as well as getting actual rim weight, as opposed to complete wheel weight.

Regards,
Mark


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

mambo said:


> This has been posted by Mark Stemmy on the other TW thread:
> 
> including wind tunnel testing against other brands, and a final report with my recommendation.
> 
> ...


This is my reply:

Wind tunnel comparison against other brands? Where did that one come from? Took me by surprise!

Mark and James, I would recommend that for forum members to have peace of mind, an independent third party be involved in the test and comparison and collate the results. Some forum members suspect that there may be an underhand collaboration involved and this would go some way to allaying their fears. To date wind tunnel data I have seen, has been prepared by the wheel brand carrying out the testing on their own wheels - I always suspect that the results are skewed in favour of the brand. 

I recently saw a post on one of the forums somewhere where somebody offered to do independent wind tunnel testing of Flo wheels if forum members stumped in to help with costs (this would actually be a good brand to compare against as they are a similar spec and price bracket. I considered Flo, but they didn't do tubular and I felt they were too heavy for the type of riding I do anyway). I don't know what others think but I would like to see a comparison with what I consider to be the benchmark - ENVE 3.4's. For me it would be interesting to see just how wide the performance gap is between a $3,000.00 wheel and a $1,000.00 'reliably' Chinese manufactured wheel.

I will post this on the other TW related threads.

Just my thoughts....


----------



## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I really don't think this warrants maintaining two threads. They should either be merged or just let one fall down the list.


----------



## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

ergott said:


> I really don't think this warrants maintaining two threads. They should either be merged or just let one fall down the list.


Agree


----------



## croctor (May 28, 2014)

I'm just a casual observer, but based on reading all I can about this company here and elsewhere I am still more than a bit skeptical.


----------



## KJP (May 10, 2014)

tihsepa said:


> Just as I figured.
> 
> Nice shill.



Nope, I have worked with James at Tokyowheel and he has been very customer oriented and helpful. 

KJP


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

KJP said:


> Nope, I have worked with James at Tokyowheel and he has been very customer oriented and helpful.
> 
> KJP


Seriously, 3 weeks to reply. I hope you've been out riding.


----------



## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

Hi guys,

Mark Stemmy just posted this on the other Tokyowheel thread.

"Hi all,

The Tokyowheel review on the Epic 38/50 clincher wheels has been posted here:

REVIEW: Tokyowheel Epic 38/50 wheelset Optimitized Cycling Solutions - 530-363-2697

Thanks for your patience and let me know if you have any questions. 

Mark"


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

And for those of us that know how to use the internet, here's the actual link

REVIEW: Tokyowheel Epic 38/50 wheelset Optimitized Cycling Solutions - 530-363-2697


----------

