# why the lack of respect for lemond?



## ocd (Jul 9, 2004)

aside fr his issues w armstrong/doping,etc there is almost never a mention of greg lemond. the guy won 3 tours, two of which were against top competition, hinault and fignon. he won 2 world championships, one of which he outsprinted sean kelly. he brought racing into a more modern era w higher salaries, aerodynamics, positioning on the bike, new frame materials, helmets, etc. besides all of this, he went to europe to race as a lone american and won over the french and europeans in general. he was never surly or rude and always had an upbeat almost boyish enthusiasim. a solid family man as well. last year, bicycling ran an article, 'what ever happened to greg lemond', and it was total crap, more about the author and his affairs than about lemond. maybe i am ranting, but the guy seems forgotten.


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## orlin03 (Dec 11, 2007)

He is definitely not forgotten. I personally love watching old footage of his racing, and read about him whenever he's featured in the mags. He did a lot for the sport, like you said, and I respect that. However, I can't say I enjoy hearing his ravings, blamings, and arguments these days. Just MPO, but he's gone downhill.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

All his lip service, blame game, finger pointing etc has not served him at all. And the very same will happen to Landis.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

It just seems that way because the amount of adoration that Armstrong has these days (and especially in the past few years) is orders of magnitude more than Lemond has. Or maybe Lemond ever had. 

Add to this the fact that the mid-80s generation of cycling fans are less internet-savvy, so if you rely on teh interwebs for gauging a person's earned respect, your estimate will be biased. 

This thread will likely be moved to Doping Only in 5, 4, 3, ...


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Why? Because his rantings and ravings detracted, then completely covered up his undeniable accomplishments. Those accomplishments include building a succesful bike selling operation, which, IMO, he managed to tank in a fit of anger.

But as said below, the lack of respect is not universal. Wherever he appears, plenty of people give him the amount of respect he deserves because of his accomplishments. I know I would.

/w


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## ElvisMerckx (Oct 11, 2002)

He's hardly forgotten. In fact whenever he speaks these days, there's huge interest in what he's saying -- heck, he's every cycling reporter's favorite inconoclast. Everything he says is controversial because he's one of the few people pointing out the emporer is buck freaking naked. I'd expect his popularity to rise, because more and more people are starting to believe him.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*tough call*

Greg lacks a sense oc tact and timing which in my opinion, makes him a tad of a curmudgeon.

I do not like the man, but as a cyclist, he was possibly one of the greatest american cyclists ever, and yeah, he was a ground breaker with certain technologies for certain.

However, he is also a whiner, he did not see the wrtingon the wall that he was washed up and as a result has become a bitter man hell bent on glorifying his exploits at the cost of any and all other US cyclists. This does not mean I adore Lance, which I do not, but, Greg has made his own misery in many many ways which were preventable.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

ElvisMerckx said:


> He's hardly forgotten. In fact whenever he speaks these days, there's huge interest in what he's saying -- heck, he's every cycling reporter's favorite inconoclast. Everything he says is controversial because he's one of the few people pointing out the emporer is buck freaking naked. I'd expect his popularity to rise, because more and more people are starting to believe him.



negative!!! he runs his piehole for attention only end of story.......his time has come and now and has been gone and this is his only way of getting ink..pfffttt


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

orangeclymer said:


> All his lip service, blame game, finger pointing etc has not served him at all. And the very same will happen to Landis.


I think Landis and Lemond are not in the same ballpark. Landis just plan looks like a piece of s&%t and mostly in my view for taking all the donations from people to fight his court battle when he knew he was guilty and years of lying to everyone, he has completely discredited himself. 

Lemond, to me, just seems jealous and angry that another American is getting all the attention for being the one of the greatest TdF riders and the greatest American rider. I think he believes it should be him. Just my opinion ymmv etc... etc...


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## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

ocd said:


> aside fr his issues w armstrong/doping,etc there is almost never a mention of greg lemond. the guy won 3 tours, two of which were against top competition, hinault and fignon. he won 2 world championships, one of which he outsprinted sean kelly. he brought racing into a more modern era w higher salaries, aerodynamics, positioning on the bike, new frame materials, helmets, etc. besides all of this, he went to europe to race as a lone american and won over the french and europeans in general. he was never surly or rude and always had an upbeat almost boyish enthusiasim. a solid family man as well. last year, bicycling ran an article, 'what ever happened to greg lemond', and it was total crap, more about the author and his affairs than about lemond. maybe i am ranting, but the guy seems forgotten.


You gain stature when you win TDF. Stature for introducing new tech to the sport and for producing a line of sanely-priced cycling masterpieces. But you fall off a cliff when you go public with "You know you know you did it" accusations against another TDF champ while being armed with *zip* in the proof dept. (Even if history proves him right).


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

Why no love for Andy Hampsten? Or Davis Phinney? oh, they're retired....got it.

(but seriously, Lemond may be a bit controversial, but that's usually good fodder for the forums. And I don't think it's fair comparing the general "man crushes" on him while he was riding vs LA's faithful following. One blazed the trail and raised exposure of the sport in the US, the other benefited and continued the trend)


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## ocd (Jul 9, 2004)

*if history proves him right...*

he's right. perhaps as a fmr tdf champ he has a bit more insight and intuition than we do. as an aside if the armstrong doping business fully blows up it will be a disgrace and a joke all at the same time. i am a big sports fan and i am beginning to place armstrong in a league w b bonds, mcguire, etc. on two rides within the last month or so, people have yelled doping related remarks at me. they7 were funny, i must admit, but it shows how the guy on the street feels about bike racing.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*depends really*



mmoose said:


> Why no love for Andy Hampsten? Or Davis Phinney? oh, they're retired....got it.
> 
> (but seriously, Lemond may be a bit controversial, but that's usually good fodder for the forums. And I don't think it's fair comparing the general "man crushes" on him while he was riding vs LA's faithful following. One blazed the trail and raised exposure of the sport in the US, the other benefited and continued the trend)


Facts are, most folks , cycling folks as well, value a overall TDF win over a Giro any day...but again, Andy does have the first American to win Alp De Huez thing going on. I liked Davis Phinney alot, still do, he has alot of courage

Why not Bob Roll mentions yet?


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

I like LeMan.

I like some of the riding Pharmstrong did. I've never liked his attitude.

Many, many guys on the street are going to be royally pissed when it is finally proven and confirmed that Lance raced dirty.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*dont agree*



nayr497 said:


> I like LeMan.
> 
> I like some of the riding Pharmstrong did. I've never liked his attitude.
> 
> Many, many guys on the street are going to be royally pissed when it is finally proven and confirmed that Lance raced dirty.


Guy on the street knows they all doped and does not care, see Baseball, Football, track and Field, Hockey etc etc etc


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

I bought my first road bike (was a BMXer) the summer he won his first TDF.
Needed the bike for college but he was my inspiration to become a cyclist.

I have followed his finger pointing and it has never bothered me or created disdain. Following professional cycling for many years I think he is correct and is spot on with his accusations.His passon for the sport he loves (and wants cleaner) is noble.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*rightyo*



pigpen said:


> I bought my first road bike (was a BMXer) the summer he won his first TDF.
> Needed the bike for college but he was my inspiration to become a cyclist.
> 
> I have followed his finger pointing and it has never bothered me or created disdain. Following professional cycling for many years I think he is correct and is spot on with his accusations.His passon for the sport he loves (and wants cleaner) is noble.


He rode at the heigth of doping, he rode when it was legal, and knew the health risks and said not one word. NOW, sense of timing is OH SO COINCIDENTAL........

He is a bitter man and I dont care for it at all.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

*and neither do I*

Not really. LeMond retired at the start of modern doping, when EPO really hit the scene. Taking speed and taking EPO are not the same thing at all.

As for people knowing they all doped and not caring. Really? You don't think there are millions of Americans who think Armstrong raced clean? You don't think these people would care if he was proven dirty?

I sure do.


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## Kai Winters (Aug 23, 2009)

He seems to be a bitter, angry person.
Bad business deals, etc. may have triggered this.
His dislike of Armstrong is interesting...perhaps jealousy? Not sure.

It is interesting how long he kept his mouth shut regarding doping for all those years when doping was "king".

There was an interesting magazine interview of him about one year ago. It spoke of most of these things.


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## LandShark'n (Jan 10, 2011)

You're going to have two camps on this topic; the people who respect and admire Greg LeMond and those who think that Lance Armstrong is God's gift to the sport of competitive cycling. Those who are typically anti-LeMond are newer to the sport. Now, if this is you, dont get your panties in a bunch. I'm 37 and when I was a kid, I followed the sport--and LeMond--religiously. I've seen him rise to a level of greatness that no other American cyclist had done before. For those of you who can remember his career, he was a truly awe-inspiring athlete.
Not to take anything away from Lance or the people who discovered cycling later in life or those who are too young to remember (or even seen) LeMond race, but it comes down to one of those times where you had to be there to understand. LeMond was the best of his time and Lance was the best of his. Whether or not Lance used PEDs is something we may never know, and personally, I don’t care. I’d like to think that cycling could be a clean sport, but I’m not so naïve to believe otherwise.

As for me, I will always be a huge fan of LeMond and I hope to meet him someday to thank him for inspiring the young kid that I was to get out and ride. That’s more than Lance has done as far as I’m concerned. I met him back in 2007 and was not the least bit impressed by him. Of course, he’s more of a celebrity than an athlete these days and celebrity never fascinated me.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I too started to pay attention in the '89 timeframe and got back into cycling. To add to what Landshark said, Greg's success was also instrumental in getting TV coverage of the Tour in North America. I have the DVD box set of his tours and world championship, where you will also see the begining of the Phil and Paul show. Paul was still a pro. The champ race shows Bob Roll on a bike too, though not his best moment. Greg wrote a book and went into detail on his views on fit which I follow. He was the man back then - and it's a little sad to see what's happened since.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Can someone give an example of his ranting and ravings?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Lemond was one of the undeniable greats of all time. No one who knows the history of cycling has forgotten about him. But I see him now the same way I see Pete Rose. He has managed to obscure his own greatness. Ever since Armstrong took over his role as "Greatest American Cyclist," in the eyes of the general public at least, he has become a bitter, old man. Perhaps he always was. I don't know. But it's a shame when someone mentions "Lemond" and the first thought that pops into your head isn't his amazing palmares.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Can someone give an example of his ranting and ravings?


Of course not, there are no rantings or ravings, unless being "disappointed" that LA worked with Ferrari is ranting, or suggesting that Contador's climbing "needs explanation" is raving. Of course, LA cut all ties with Ferrari (allegedly), and Contador is awaiting a suspension, so Lemond seems to be on the sane side.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

ttug said:


> He rode at the heigth of doping, he rode when it was legal, and knew the health risks and said not one word. NOW, sense of timing is OH SO COINCIDENTAL........
> 
> He is a bitter man and I dont care for it at all.


Who was going to ask about doping before the 1998 tour? He has become vocal as more and more questions have been asked, and questions have been asked of him. And where is the evidence he is bitter?


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*dont get it*



PhatTalc said:


> Who was going to ask about doping before the 1998 tour? He has become vocal as more and more questions have been asked, and questions have been asked of him. And where is the evidence he is bitter?


So dope did not kill before 98? Or, it did not matter then? How about Virenque, or Riis, or hey, why not Tom Simpson....they doped. They won doped, except Simpson, he just died.

I did however like Millar. He doped, got caught, came clean, life went on. The others, not so much. Who would ask? Anyone who climbed with Kelme, or perhaps Pantani or how about a guy like Greg? Or How about Merckx? etc etc etc etc


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## LO lefty (Nov 1, 2008)

Greg was a truly ground-breaking champion, and put the US on the map as regards cycling; but the only thing I want to know about him is, Who makes his bikes?


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

It all started when he gave his opinion (the truth!) about LA working with Dr. Ferrari in 2001..... and then imo he was smeared by the LA camp and bullied into taking his own opinion back (which again is/was the truth) and this is when all the Lemond "bitter", "jealous" etc. stuff started about him..... 

This is just what happened to Betsy & Frankie Andrea... for basically telling the truth in the SCA hearings... she was especially smeared in the same way by the LA camp. 

I totally respect Lemond for speaking up, it would have been easy for him to remain quiet.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I watch the DVDs of LeMond in the 80s when he was at his peak....I loved watching him ride... 

Today, he opens his mouth and he sounds like a bitter old man


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

Dave Hickey said:


> I watch the DVDs of LeMond in the 80s when he was at his peak....I loved watching him ride...
> 
> Today, he opens his mouth and he sounds like a bitter old man



Yes.. I guess sometimes the truth sounds bitter...


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*thats BS*



pedalruns said:


> Yes.. I guess sometimes the truth sounds bitter...


Greg rode as a fact during the heigth of drugs in cycling. He, as a fact, at his own admission, would NOT complete a race and FAKE equipment failures so he would not lose because he was PAST HIS PRIME...THEN Lance (another guy I dont really like) equals his TDF overall win record and THEN AND ONLY THEN, Lemond says, Gosh, it sure would be a shame if.....

Thats BS, lots of guys doped but Lemond only speaks when HIS RECORD is at stake. So spare me the weepy eyed Greg Cares. My a55.

Greg, can stick his pious BS up his bony quitter a55. Cancer survivors win a TDF, they must dope, a guy with buckshot, in his body near his lungs wins and he is a hero, dope free, at the heigth of doping.....

Like the tooth fairy much. Wake up Francis, they ALL DOPE


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Lemond was and is a coward*



pedalruns said:


> It all started when he gave his opinion (the truth!) about LA working with Dr. Ferrari in 2001..... and then imo he was smeared by the LA camp and bullied into taking his own opinion back (which again is/was the truth) and this is when all the Lemond "bitter", "jealous" etc. stuff started about him.....
> 
> This is just what happened to Betsy & Frankie Andrea... for basically telling the truth in the SCA hearings... she was especially smeared in the same way by the LA camp.
> 
> I totally respect Lemond for speaking up, it would have been easy for him to remain quiet.


He spoke up when his record was in danger.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

ttug said:


> He spoke up when his record was in danger.



No.... again he spoke up when he found out LA was working with dr. Ferrari... and was then forced to make a retraction by trek and LA.... and was actually quiet for several years... but he finally started speaking up again.. I don't blame him, he is a fighter, and finally the truth is being told.. He already settled last year with Trek about the above incident. 

And... you know he is probably the last clean tour rider... THere has never been ANY rumors that he doped, except on the forums where people throw insults. 

IMO Lemond is the TRUE hero, I know not a popular opinion(especially on this forum or in TX where I live), but that is just how I feel.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ttug said:


> He rode at the heigth of doping, he rode when it was legal, and knew the health risks and said not one word. NOW, sense of timing is OH SO COINCIDENTAL........
> 
> He is a bitter man and I dont care for it at all.


Nope. Not even close

Lemond negotiated a way out of his contract with PDM when it became clear they were going start an advanced, team wide doping program. He worked with the same coaches for most of his career, Van Diem and Koechli, both vocal anti doping. He spoke often about doping and the influence of doctors in the sport prior to Armstrong's first Tour win. 

Armstrong thinks that everything is about him, but it isn't. If LeMond has indeed spent the last decade ranting and raving it should be easy to find evidence of it.....so far nobody has found any.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*vocal?*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nope. Not even close
> 
> Lemond negotiated a way out of his contract with PDM when it became clear they were going start an advanced, team wide doping program. He worked with the same coaches for most of his career, Van Diem and Koechli, both vocal anti doping. He spoke often about doping and the influence of doctors in the sport prior to Armstrong's first Tour win.
> 
> Armstrong thinks that everything is about him, but it isn't. If LeMond has indeed spent the last decade ranting and raving it should be easy to find evidence of it.....so far nobody has found any.


OH BS..Vocal? Where was the Intl Press conference? SI article? Statement of belief when he owned his bike co on HIS web site? 

Vocal, my ass.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Hero*



pedalruns said:


> No.... again he spoke up when he found out LA was working with dr. Ferrari... and was then forced to make a retraction by trek and LA.... and was actually quiet for several years... but he finally started speaking up again.. I don't blame him, he is a fighter, and finally the truth is being told.. He already settled last year with Trek about the above incident.
> 
> And... you know he is probably the last clean tour rider... THere has never been ANY rumors that he doped, except on the forums where people throw insults.
> 
> IMO Lemond is the TRUE hero, I know not a popular opinion(especially on this forum or in TX where I live), but that is just how I feel.


Every Hero has, a tragic flaw. ALL OF THEM. Any mythos, any ideology, they are flawed. Often we call this a tragic flaw.

When Greg attempted a comeback, he understood yuh, lots of doping and he just forgot one thing, he did not have the goods to compete at that level anymore. It happens, and will happen. Was it all doping? No. Did Greg think that? IMO, yes, and that the doping myth, you dope, you get better. Not so for everyone.........NOT to the degree that everyone wins, aint so. No group spints on all GT stages YET. 

Odds are, a decade from now, you will hopefully learn, there are no heros. They all doped


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

ttug said:


> Every Hero has, a tragic flaw. ALL OF THEM. Any mythos, any ideology, they are flawed. Often we call this a tragic flaw.
> 
> When Greg attempted a comeback, he understood yuh, lots of doping and he just forgot one thing, he did not have the goods to compete at that level anymore. It happens, and will happen. Was it all doping? No. Did Greg think that? IMO, yes, and that the doping myth, you dope, you get better. Not so for everyone.........NOT to the degree that everyone wins, aint so. No group spints on all GT stages YET.
> 
> Odds are, a decade from now, you will hopefully learn, there are no heros. They all doped


Amen. There are no heroes in cycling. Or any sports for that matter. It's all entertainment.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ttug said:


> OH BS..Vocal? Where was the Intl Press conference? SI article? Statement of belief when he owned his bike co on HIS web site?
> 
> Vocal, my ass.


It is possible that some people missed the interviews as they happened prior to 1999. 

Here is one from 1989
Drug Use Said to Concern LeMond Attorney Claims Dutch Team Wanted Cyclist to Try Testosterone

Here is one from 1998
LeMond Considers Drug Issue a Wake-Up Call



> this is probably good for cycling. It's a wake-up call. I think riders will think twice now about team-influenced programs.
> 
> "Drugs are the sick side of sports, not just cycling but in many sports.
> 
> ...



Another one from 1998



> that the Italians have changed the sport in a really bad way. It has become much more medical...
> 
> I know my old teammate, Eric Boyer, retired because he didn't want to touch the stuff, and I know many other people who made it through clean, such as Andy Hampsten and Steve Bauer. Every rider on La Vie Claire was clean, that was Paul Keochli's big deal to make sure he had a clean team. But I do know in the early '90s there was a huge movement in Italy. Riders that had been racing for six or seven years were suddenly riding really well. To me, that looks a little suspicious. The drug issue is something I often thought about during my career. Toward the end, I always wondered, 'Is everyone taking drugs, while I stay clean, causing me to perform so poorly?' But there wasn't a drug in the world that would've helped me. One thing I do know is that a teammate of mine went to an Italian team and he died of a heart attack a year later.


I could post more, but you get the picture. Now your turn. Please show us the bitter, crazy, LeMond


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## slegros (Sep 22, 2009)

LeMond was undeniably a great rider, and a great personality in cycling. I cant help but think though after retirement he could have used his influence so much more positively to effect the changes in cycling he thought necessary.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

ttug said:


> Greg rode as a fact during the heigth of drugs in cycling. He, as a fact, at his own admission, would NOT complete a race and FAKE equipment failures so he would not lose because he was PAST HIS PRIME...THEN Lance (another guy I dont really like) equals his TDF overall win record and THEN AND ONLY THEN, Lemond says, Gosh, it sure would be a shame if.....


Read Dr. Falsetti's posts. Your history is all wrong.



ttug said:


> Thats BS, lots of guys doped but Lemond only speaks when HIS RECORD is at stake. So spare me the weepy eyed Greg Cares. My a55.


 His record is still intact, not at stake.



ttug said:


> Greg, can stick his pious BS up his bony quitter a55. Cancer survivors win a TDF, they must dope, a guy with buckshot, in his body near his lungs wins and he is a hero, dope free, at the heigth of doping.....
> 
> Like the tooth fairy much. Wake up Francis, they ALL DOPE


It wasn't cancer survival that made LA suspicious, initially it was his connection to Ferrari, to which Lemond said he was "disappointed".


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

ttug said:


> Thats BS, lots of guys doped but Lemond only speaks when HIS RECORD is at stake. So spare me the weepy eyed Greg Cares. My a55.
> 
> Greg, can stick his pious BS up his bony quitter a55. Cancer survivors win a TDF, they must dope, a guy with buckshot, in his body near his lungs wins and he is a hero, dope free, at the heigth of doping.....
> 
> Like the tooth fairy much. Wake up Francis, they ALL DOPE


Don't forget that Greg had teammates DIE with doping strongly suspected as a cause, and yet, he said nothing. He knew about doping on PDM, and says nothing. Guys like Rooks, close friends, were doping, and he said nothing. He was one of the few guys that had the world forum to say something and actually be heard, and he says nothing. He could have stood up and led the fight and been a true hero for the sport. But does he say anything? No. Not until ten years later, of course, when Lance ascends to the throne. Total BS.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

mohair_chair said:


> Don't forget that Greg had teammates DIE with doping strongly suspected as a cause, and yet, he said nothing. He knew about doping on PDM, and says nothing. Guys like Rooks, close friends, were doping, and he said nothing. He was one of the few guys that had the world forum to say something and actually be heard, and he says nothing. He could have stood up and led the fight and been a true hero for the sport. But does he say anything? No. Not until ten years later, of course, when Lance ascends to the throne. Total BS.


It appears you skipped my post where I linked to a LA times article from 1989 that talks about LeMond's lawyer negotiating an exit from PDM because they wanted him to dope. Or the other article from 1998 where he talks about his former teamate dying. 

Just because some people were not paying attention to the sport in the 80's and 90's does not mean LeMond was not against dope. He always was and often talked about it. 

Still waiting for evidence of the bitter, crazy, obsessed LeMond. It appears that is an invention.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

http://www.bicycling.com/news/featured-stories/whatever-happened-greg-lemond


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*paying attention*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> It appears you skipped my post where I linked to a LA times article from 1989 that talks about LeMond's lawyer negotiating an exit from PDM because they wanted him to dope. Or the other article from 1998 where he talks about his former teamate dying.
> 
> Just because some people were not paying attention to the sport in the 80's and 90's does not mean LeMond was not against dope. He always was and often talked about it.
> 
> Still waiting for evidence of the bitter, crazy, obsessed LeMond. It appears that is an invention.


I started with Merckx and pretty much followed ther history of the sport. Since there is an article from 89.....and I believe you stated 98, yeah, and of course when did Gregs Team mate die? You team mate dies and you talk about it in an article a neear decade later...my heart would pound piss for certain. Personally, a team mate dies, I would flip out and have a huge huge media campaign, not an article woo wee.

Eddy doped, Van Impe, Coppi, they all doped or had suspicions of doping. Again, building a hero, is just a dream my man, they all doped and they all did very very little about it.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

ttug said:


> I started with Merckx and pretty much followed ther history of the sport. Since there is an article from 89.....and I believe you stated 98, yeah, and of course when did Gregs Team mate die? You team mate dies and you talk about it in an article a neear decade later...my heart would pound piss for certain. Personally, a team mate dies, I would flip out and have a huge huge media campaign, not an article woo wee.


It was me that pointed to 1998, because that was the Festina scandal. Falsetti has much more knowledge and showed that Lemond had spoken out before Lance won his first tour, and indeed had his Lawyer speak for him on the subject in 1989 re PDM.

So lets just recap your argument:



ttug said:


> He rode at the heigth of doping, he rode when it was legal, and knew the health risks and said not one word. NOW, sense of timing is OH SO COINCIDENTAL........
> 
> He is a bitter man and I dont care for it at all.


You think there was more doping in 1986 (say) than 1998? ok. 

So he DID speak out (1989, 1998) but its not enough. You said, "not one word" - but now that is shown to be wrong, you still won't reevaluate. You are right on one thing, his timing was coincidental: with the biggest drug scandal in the sport (1998)!


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

I know the history quite well. I don't need your interpretation of it. When Lemond left PDM, he said nothing. He negotiated an exit and said nothing. What was said was said by his lawyer. In fact, the article you refer to says "LeMond, who was in the Normandy town of Lisieux Monday, could not be reached for comment." Yep. Our hero.

Given a chance to speak out on a subject that troubled him, he walks away, and says nothing.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

AdamM said:


> http://www.bicycling.com/news/featured-stories/whatever-happened-greg-lemond


As much as I like Mike Magnuson as a writer (though not so much as a person), I can't really say that's proof of LeMond's sanity or insanity. The article may have won awards, but it was pretty much a meh for me, delivering more on Magnuson than on LeMond, and providing a bitter postscript to _Heft on Wheels_.

I don't think Greg is crazy. I think Greg is a horrible public speaker. I think Greg doesn't know how to phrase an argument well in times of stress. I think he has a horrible sense of tactics and strategy outside of a bike race... but I don't think he's crazy. Maybe a little bitter, but not because he was surpassed as "the great American rider". I believe he honestly doesn't like what happened to the sport. I don't believe he doped, other than what was legal and openly acceptable during his day.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

mohair_chair said:


> I know the history quite well. I don't need your interpretation of it. When Lemond left PDM, he said nothing. He negotiated an exit and said nothing. What was said was said by his lawyer. In fact, the article you refer to says "LeMond, who was in the Normandy town of Lisieux Monday, could not be reached for comment." Yep. Our hero.
> 
> Given a chance to speak out on a subject that troubled him, he walks away, and says nothing.


I have provided three examples that prove you wrong. You choose to ignore them because then do not fit your invented history.

Your turn, show us an example of Greg's crazy, bitterness......or was that all invented as well?


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> I don't think Greg is crazy. I think Greg is a horrible public speaker. I think Greg doesn't know how to phrase an argument well in times of stress. I think he has a horrible sense of tactics and strategy outside of a bike race... but I don't think he's crazy. Maybe a little bitter, but not because he was surpassed as "the great American rider". I believe he honestly doesn't like what happened to the sport. I don't believe he doped, other than what was legal and openly acceptable during his day.


+1 :thumbsup:


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ttug said:


> I started with Merckx and pretty much followed ther history of the sport. Since there is an article from 89.....and I believe you stated 98, yeah, and of course when did Gregs Team mate die? You team mate dies and you talk about it in an article a neear decade later...my heart would pound piss for certain. Personally, a team mate dies, I would flip out and have a huge huge media campaign, not an article woo wee.
> 
> Eddy doped, Van Impe, Coppi, they all doped or had suspicions of doping. Again, building a hero, is just a dream my man, they all doped and they all did very very little about it.


Not saying that Greg should be a hero, only that the story that he never spoke up about drugs in the sport until Armstrong is not valid.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I have provided three examples that prove you wrong. You choose to ignore them because then do not fit your invented history.
> 
> Your turn, show us an example of Greg's crazy, bitterness......or was that all invented as well?


The only thing I ignore is your calculated naivete. Your own article shows that Lemond said nothing and would not comment. If you want to somehow spin that as him speaking out, then I am clearly talking to a wall here. The evidence is clear: Lemond personally said NOTHING when it mattered the most. When the **** hit the fan in 1998, he jumped on the bandwagon, but before that, SILENCE. Any other conclusion you draw is a pure fantasy.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*dream on*



PhatTalc said:


> It was me that pointed to 1998, because that was the Festina scandal. Falsetti has much more knowledge and showed that Lemond had spoken out before Lance won his first tour, and indeed had his Lawyer speak for him on the subject in 1989 re PDM.
> 
> So lets just recap your argument:
> 
> ...


Hmm Virenque confesses, and then wins Ventoux....Riis confesses, DEACDES after and gives the yellow back,Pantani dies, coked out, and hes a hero and the best, the best of any of this is a few worsd he abandoned for the fame until the record was challenged ansd as you point out 98, where Pantani has the TT "of a lifetime"................

Who else needs to recant and die for you to trhink words real speaking out and LOTS and LOTS of words have been spoken and HAD AN IMPACT, at least Millar came clean when he got nailed. He was a SOB, but ya know what he did and continued to speak out, sure, he got caught.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

mmoose said:


> Why no love for Andy Hampsten? Or Davis Phinney? oh, they're retired....got it.


...and they've kept their yaps shut!

Davis is one my 'heroes' in this crazy sport. We're built similarly, so its always been 'if HE can do it, I can do it!'

M


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

mohair_chair said:


> The only thing I ignore is your calculated naivete. Your own article shows that Lemond said nothing and would not comment. If you want to somehow spin that as him speaking out, then I am clearly talking to a wall here. The evidence is clear: Lemond personally said NOTHING when it mattered the most. When the **** hit the fan in 1998, he jumped on the bandwagon, but before that, SILENCE. Any other conclusion you draw is a pure fantasy.


Fantasy would be the contents of your post. The fact is Lemond, and Koechli, were vocal about their stand on doping. It was a common topic in the European media in the 80's. Other riders have said the same. In the end it really does not matter, no matter how many links I give proving you wrong it will not change your mind. 

Now how about some links show us that Lemond is crazy?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

MShaw said:


> ...and they've kept their yaps shut!


Andy has not. Here are some of his words on the topic. Andy raced with Greg and knows him well. He knows the truth, that Greg has been vocally against drugs for decades

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=6730

Here are some excerpts



> I admire Greg's courage to speak his mind on the doping problems that still plague cycling. Like him, I feel that this problem is out of hand. Something needs to be done to clean it up, not only for the sake of the riders’ health, but also for the sake of returning our sport to the truths of human spirit, valor, and talent.......
> 
> Greg, who remains unquestionably the father of the modern era of American cycling champions, standing up and declaring that professional cycling has been and, regrettably, still is rotten with drugs......
> 
> ...


Andy is a class act. He would laugh at the absurdity of some of the unsupported vitriol directed at Greg.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*question about "speaking out"*

Well, lets assume, just for this moment that everyone really is holding it out there and speaking out, I mean balls to the wall, really trying...

The results speak loudly dont they? 

Totally ineffective, people dope, still dope, will dope etc etc. Cantador, Rasmussen, Floyd Lance etc etc etc etc 

If I had to give a grade? A being fantastic, F being a Failure, We are talking about F Google plus minus. Its a fantasy to have a hero in any sport when the reality is, there are no heros. IMO, they all dope. When colleagues die, and the best you got is an interview, and a culture where doping is rife, pardon me while I do not sing any praises cause its a piss poor job I see as far as results


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ttug said:


> Well, lets assume, just for this moment that everyone really is holding it out there and speaking out, I mean balls to the wall, really trying...
> 
> The results speak loudly dont they?
> 
> ...


The sport has a poor history of speaking up about the issue. The only thing for sure is for the last 20 years no high visibility figure has been more vocal about the problem then LeMond has.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*BS utter and total*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> The sport has a poor history of speaking up about the issue. The only thing for sure is for the last 20 years no high visibility figure has been more vocal about the problem then LeMond has.


I was far more impressed by the statements of David Millar and the tragedy of Pantanis death. They said a hell of a lot more than Greg ever could


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ttug said:


> I was far more impressed by the statements of David Millar and the tragedy of Pantanis death. They said a hell of a lot more than Greg ever could


I agree Millar has had a good dialog, but he has never had the status in the sport Greg has, Not even close. Pantani was outspoken? Must have missed that.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

I don't dislike LeMond. I just think that there is a possibility that he too doped. Accusing LA of something he himself did is not OK...

Could be wrong, but doubt it..

See..."So LeMond was clean?" thread:thumbsup:


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Pantani and Millar*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> I agree Millar has had a good dialog, but he has never had the status in the sport Greg has, Not even close. Pantani was outspoken? Must have missed that.


Pantanis actions spoke alot louder. His interviews where he states I need mountains to perform not drugs are at best, sad. His greatest statement COULD have been his performance on Zonclaon where he did hang in near the front on arguably the hardest climbs in the circuit. Even after being out of competition for a while. However, his death of cocaine intoxication and his room having enough barbituates to kill a small horse much less a smaller man, should be testimony enough.

IF I recall wasnt it Millar who publicly complained about Angliru DURING the stage and ON THE CAMERAs. You know, about how the expectations of having a race on such climbs was not human?

EDIT: Yes, it was Millar and, look at the last 3 winners of Angliru:

2000 Gilberto Simoni (ITA) 
2002 Roberto Heras (ESP) 
2008 Alberto Contador (ESP)


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

ttug said:


> Pantanis actions spoke alot louder. His interviews where he states I need mountains to perform not drugs are at best, sad. His greatest statement COULD have been his performance on Zonclaon where he did hang in near the front on arguably the hardest climbs in the circuit. Even after being out of competition for a while. However, his death of cocaine intoxication and his room having enough barbituates to kill a small horse much less a smaller man, should be testimony enough.
> 
> IF I recall wasnt it Millar who publicly complained about Angliru DURING the stage and ON THE CAMERAs. You know, about how the expectations of having a race on such climbs was not human?
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding your reply. Are you saying that Pantani's action *against doping* spoke a lot louder than what, his silence? Or that he killed himself through drugs speaks against doping or for doping? 

Or, are you saying that Pantani shows a lot of b**ls when climbing, therefore it is OK whether he dopes or not? 

Thank you in advance for clarifying.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*his death*



orange_julius said:


> Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding your reply. Are you saying that Pantani's action *against doping* spoke a lot louder than what, his silence? Or that he killed himself through drugs speaks against doping or for doping?
> 
> Or, are you saying that Pantani shows a lot of b**ls when climbing, therefore it is OK whether he dopes or not?
> 
> Thank you in advance for clarifying.


The fact that he killed himself through drugs speaks against doping, IMO.

Others of course have built statues enobling his acts in the sport....................I bet there are many who deserve a statue in the sport


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

So, sound to me like the gist of this thread is:

Camp A. There are a few here that think GL is a hypocrite when he speaks out against dopers, especially LA. Those same few also seem to think that because GL rode when doping was rife in the peloton (truth be told, when _hasn't_ the peloton been rife, though?), and he was successful, that he MUST have doped too, but was never caught. He's a "bitter, crazed old curmudgeon" because he speaks out against doping.

Sounds like "guilt by association", to me, with no basis on actual facts. Only circumstantial evidence. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Camp B. There are those that actually have their facts straight, by saying that GL has quite often spoke out against drug use, even when he raced...just as many pro riders do today. 

Camp B also says, "where is the bitter, crazed old man?", and Camp A has no response.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The title of this thread is "Why the lack of respect for LeMond?"

The truth is that there are many, many more that respect the man, than who do not. 
Yet, the ones who do not are shouting the loudest, therefore getting the attention.

In my opinion, it's just the media who are making "much ado about nothing"; a tempest in a teapot, if you will.

GL has stated his opinions. He's entitled. He's been there, done that. Punters will speak as if they "know" something... but it's just "arm chair quarterbacking". Always has been, always will be.

I don't care whether LA doped or not. I don't care if GL doped or not. But I don't see any of GL's old team mates speaking up against him... just a thought.

I have a ton of respect for GL, though.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*question*




frpax said:


> So, sound to me like the gist of this thread is:
> 
> Camp A. There are a few here that think GL is a hypocrite when he speaks out against dopers, especially LA. Those same few also seem to think that because GL rode when doping was rife in the peloton (truth be told, when _hasn't_ the peloton been rife, though?), and he was successful, that he MUST have doped too, but was never caught. He's a "bitter, crazed old curmudgeon" because he speaks out against doping.
> 
> ...


Have you ever looked up the word hero?


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

frpax said:


> So, sound to me like the gist of this thread is:
> 
> Camp A. There are a few here that think GL is a hypocrite when he speaks out against dopers, especially LA. Those same few also seem to think that because GL rode when doping was rife in the peloton (truth be told, when _hasn't_ the peloton been rife, though?), and he was successful, that he MUST have doped too, but was never caught. He's a "bitter, crazed old curmudgeon" because he speaks out against doping.
> 
> ...


+1 You've exactly explained the gist of this thread. 

It's the never ending story of two cyclists. One who is under Fedaral investigation for doping, and the other one who isn't , and never was. Oh, and then there are all of the angry, bitter, and jaded fans of the first cyclist in question who have made up a whole lot of stories about the second cyclist because they are mad at him for saying 'bad' things about the first cyclist. :cryin:


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

Alaska Mike said:


> As much as I like Mike Magnuson as a writer (though not so much as a person), I can't really say that's proof of LeMond's sanity or insanity. The article may have won awards, but it was pretty much a meh for me, delivering more on Magnuson than on LeMond, and providing a bitter postscript to _Heft on Wheels_.
> 
> I don't think Greg is crazy. I think Greg is a horrible public speaker. I think Greg doesn't know how to phrase an argument well in times of stress. I think he has a horrible sense of tactics and strategy outside of a bike race... but I don't think he's crazy. Maybe a little bitter, but not because he was surpassed as "the great American rider". I believe he honestly doesn't like what happened to the sport. I don't believe he doped, other than what was legal and openly acceptable during his day.


Well said, my sentiments exactly.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

ttug said:


> Have you ever looked up the word hero?


Did he mention the word hero?


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

ttug said:


> Hmm Virenque confesses, and then wins Ventoux....Riis confesses, DEACDES after and gives the yellow back,Pantani dies, coked out, and hes a hero and the best, the best of any of this is a few worsd he abandoned for the fame until the record was challenged ansd as you point out 98, where Pantani has the TT "of a lifetime"................
> 
> *Who else needs to recant and die for you to trhink words real speaking out and LOTS and LOTS of words have been spoken and HAD AN IMPACT*, at least Millar came clean when he got nailed. He was a SOB, but ya know what he did and continued to speak out, sure, he got caught.


I don't understand the first Paragraph: is it about Lemond?

As for the second - I don't understand that either. Millar spoke out after he was caught by the police - so that is better than Lemond speaking out even though he wasn't caught? Is that you point? I emboldened the bit I really don't understand: I didn't use those words, or imply them, so I really have no idea what that is supposed to mean.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*wow, did he*



PhatTalc said:


> Did he mention the word hero?


I am sure the person can answer on their own behalf dont you? Doesnt he?


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

ttug said:


> I am sure the person can answer on their own behalf dont you? Doesnt he?


From dictionary.com:

he·ro   /ˈhɪəroʊ/ [heer-oh] 

–noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros. 

1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities. 
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child. 
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc. 
4. Classical Mythology . 
a. a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity. 
b. (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability. 
c. (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod. 
5. hero sandwich. 
6. the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.


Not sure where you're going with this, but I do know what a hero is.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

Again i don't care for his mamby pamby whiney sniveling finger pointing when his time is GONE, done, past and all he's striving for is ink. Shut it and move on.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

Wait, i don't like either of them... Which camp am I in??!???


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

wiz525 said:


> Wait, i don't like either of them... Which camp am I in??!???


You should've taken a left at Albuquerque!


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*no, not close*



frpax said:


> From dictionary.com:
> 
> he·ro   /ˈhɪəroʊ/ [heer-oh]
> 
> ...


You used a dictionary, that was toough I am certain. Again, hero, its of ancient greek origin right? Ever see how the ancient Greeks used it? Yes you have. Greeks tended to have what we called a Byronian hero, a flawed person. The greek, tended that the actions were flawed, you know, what they did. Like Greg. Flawed because of his actions, not because of his person. For mere mortals, the difference is pointless.

In short, a hero, will either demonstrate a flaw, or be of a flawed nature.

Lets see, is being a liar a flaw? A coward a flaw? A person who watches his colleagues DIE and does not push as hard as he could, a flaw? Well, IMO, yes, thats a flaw. All heroes, are flawed. Thta means Lance, or anyone else you want to stick in the slot.

I try to not create a hero because, heros, are just a letdown and a fantasy to have in a sporting event that is chock full of doped out folks.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

ttug said:


> You used a dictionary, that was toough I am certain. Again, hero, its of ancient greek origin right? Ever see how the ancient Greeks used it? Yes you have. Greeks tended to have what we called a Byronian hero, a flawed person. The greek, tended that the actions were flawed, you know, what they did. Like Greg. Flawed because of his actions, not because of his person. For mere mortals, the difference is pointless.
> 
> In short, a hero, will either demonstrate a flaw, or be of a flawed nature.


That's nice. What are you talking about?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Yeah, we get it. Everyone sucks. :cryin:


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

ttug just wants to argue. I'm out on that.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Wow. The ignore function actually works! Awesome!


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*oh, I get it*



PhatTalc said:


> That's nice. What are you talking about?


You either want to ignore doping and let kids get killed or you are a injured soul in search of a crutch in the form of a hero.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*close*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yeah, we get it. Everyone sucks. :cryin:


No, they all dope in cycling


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## ragweed (Jan 2, 2009)

frpax said:


> Wow. The ignore function actually works! Awesome!


Where exactly is the ignore button? I see that there's a buddy list button if I click on a poster's name but don't see the "ignore" anywhere.

TIA


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

ragweed said:


> Where exactly is the ignore button? I see that there's a buddy list button if I click on a poster's name but don't see the "ignore" anywhere.
> 
> TIA


Go to My Account in the lighter blue bar above.
Then, on the left side of the new page, you'll see Miscellaneous, and under that is the Buddy/Ignore Lists.
Add the name of whoever you don't want to read posts of, and Viola! Done.

YW


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*ad naseum*



ttug said:


> No, they all dope in cycling


Ok, we get it. All cyclists dope.  

I don't think that your old. tired lines are doing anything positive to support your argument.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*old and tired*



piano said:


> Ok, we get it. All cyclists dope.
> 
> I don't think that your old. tired lines are doing anything positive to support your argument.



I told you my opinioon. When giving my opinion is old and tired, then you need to intake more fiber.

Amazing that in some way, you believe I need your approval or give a dried turd what you think, 

Clarifying moment: I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

ttug said:


> I told you my opinioon. When giving my opinion is old and tired, then you need to intake more fiber.
> 
> Amazing that in some way, you believe I need your approval or give a dried turd what you think,
> 
> Clarifying moment: I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK


As I said, you just want to argue. 
Keep it up and the mods will just lock the thread down. 
So give it a rest, will ya? We all know your opinion.
At his point we all just need to agree to disagree.


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