# Motobecane Immortal Frame



## ctxcrossx (Jul 8, 2004)

Hello,

I recently purchased a Motobecane Immortal Ice bike from Bikesdirect.com. I love it so far, but I remember reading several people saying that the frame is an older generation frame (most say 10-15 years) in terms of technology. Does anyone know which aspects of the frame are considered outdated?

Thanks.

Chris


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

The frame design appears as if it is the same as some of the early 2000's carbon bikes.

Carbon bike design and technology has advanced a lot since then. Otherwise, nothing wrong with it. Its a bike ride the heck out of it and enjoy cycling.

I had one back in 2008. I even won a cat 5 crit on it. I ended up selling it b/c I needed a taller head tube.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

it looks like a design of the early 2000s because it is. They've been selling the same frame forever. Maybe they bought a run of frames 10 years ago and are still selling them off. 

Re the OP's questions, it's outdated because of the design and build, which likely features internal lugs. This makes it heavy with a claimed weight of 1225 grams (which is probably the smallest frame so heavier than many alloy frames). It also has a standard fork, whereas many frames now have a tapered fork to make a stiffer front end. It has alloy dropouts, which add weight.

I can never figure out why people ask these questions after they buy a bike, but the worst part is that there's no warranty - they have a replacement program so you buy another frame at a 'below wholesale' price, which is a bit ridiculous given their business model. They retail the frame for $700, which is crazy for that frame. 





seppo17 said:


> The frame design appears as if it is the same as some of the early 2000's carbon bikes.
> 
> Carbon bike design and technology has advanced a lot since then. Otherwise, nothing wrong with it. Its a bike ride the heck out of it and enjoy cycling.
> 
> I had one back in 2008. I even won a cat 5 crit on it. I ended up selling it b/c I needed a taller head tube.


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## ctxcrossx (Jul 8, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> I can never figure out why people ask these questions after they buy a bike, but the worst part is that there's no warranty - they have a replacement program so you buy another frame at a 'below wholesale' price, which is a bit ridiculous given their business model. They retail the frame for $700, which is crazy for that frame.


I asked after I bought the bike because I was curious. It wasn't going to sway my decision either way (I am very happy with it), so I really didn't feel the need to get the information prior to the purchase. 

I was aware of the tapered head tube difference, but I wasn't sure what other improvements have been done with carbon in that time frame.

I appreciate your insight.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

BD also sells the kestrel legend for about the same price and is a far superior frame. 



ctxcrossx said:


> I asked after I bought the bike because I was curious. It wasn't going to sway my decision either way (I am very happy with it), so I really didn't feel the need to get the information prior to the purchase.
> 
> I was aware of the tapered head tube difference, but I wasn't sure what other improvements have been done with carbon in that time frame.
> 
> I appreciate your insight.


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

ctxcrossx said:


> It wasn't going to sway my decision either way (I am very happy with it), so I really didn't feel the need to get the information prior to the purchase.


So, what's your point? You bought a bike, and you like your bike. Good so far.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

My Own Private Idaho said:


> So, what's your point? You bought a bike, and you like your bike. Good so far.



Nothing terribly wrong with an older frame. Improvements in bike design are gradual. If the bike fits, and the price was right you should be happy. That said, could never get myself to go bikes direct. There are tons of stores sitting on left over frames from two to three years ago, marked down that offer better value, at least that's my opinion.


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## Aravilar (Feb 12, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> BD also sells the kestrel legend for about the same price and is a far superior frame.


Can anyone elaborate on the real performance difference? 

It looks like a weight difference of 450g between the Kestrel Legend and Immortal Ice frames; does the Immortal Ice make up for it in terms of components?


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## ctxcrossx (Jul 8, 2004)

As I mentioned before, I was curious as to what the differences are between the immortal frame and one that is considered more current.


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## Aravilar (Feb 12, 2014)

ctxcrossx said:


> As I mentioned before, I was curious as to what the differences are between the immortal frame and one that is considered more current.


Do you mind weighing your bike? (And providing size/pedals)


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

it's essentially the same component group and the wheelsets weigh the same. The difference in the frame is night and day (the immortal is an outdated frame that would be lucky to get $200 if resold) and the kestrel has a real manufacturer's warranty.



Aravilar said:


> Can anyone elaborate on the real performance difference?
> 
> It looks like a weight difference of 450g between the Kestrel Legend and Immortal Ice frames; does the Immortal Ice make up for it in terms of components?


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> Nothing terribly wrong with an older frame. Improvements in bike design are gradual. ...


Understatement. If you take the hype with each year's new developments and work it backwards, bikes from a few years ago would have to have been putrefying heaps of dung, completely unrideable or fit for any purpose.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

looigi said:


> Understatement. If you take the hype with each year's new developments and work it backwards, bikes from a few years ago would have to have been putrefying heaps of dung, completely unrideable or fit for any purpose.


For sure. Or is you worked it forward from say 5 years ago the improvements would have us all sprinting 5mph faster, making formerly hard climbs disappear while at the same time doing rides of 300 miles without a hint of fatigue from road buzz whereas we were lucky to make it 5 miles with our old bike.
Back in the real world though most of us ride about the same with a bike from any year.


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## Aravilar (Feb 12, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> it's essentially the same component group and the wheelsets weigh the same. The difference in the frame is night and day (the immortal is an outdated frame that would be lucky to get $200 if resold) and the kestrel has a real manufacturer's warranty.


The components looks similar but besides the wheelset, the Immortal has Ultegra/Ritchey "other" components vs. Oval Concepts; is there a difference there?

Also, I'm not sure resale value is relevant (I'm buying a bike to ride, not part out) but would like to know if there are any studies that compare wattage savings due to less drag with various frames? I saw one for wheelsets, and that sort of quantitative analysis is more definitive than "outdated" and other descriptions that are quite nebulous.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

just FYI, the BD site is up to tricks at every turn. The supposed list price of the legend on their site is for another model. The ultegra build has a list of about 2400. Colorado cyclist has the same model for the same price as BD. 

You won't find a study of the aero differences between these two frames. I don't think you're quite getting the bigger picture here. The immortal is a heavy, outdated design sold with a manufacturer label that is just a sticker - BD bought the rights to the name motobecane and the bike has no connection to the real company, which went bankrupt in the 80s. The kestrel is a real manufacturer, a frame that is 450 grams lighter (that's a lot), has better design features (e.g., BB30, tapered fork) and a warranty. There's no comparison. 




Aravilar said:


> The components looks similar but besides the wheelset, the Immortal has Ultegra/Ritchey "other" components vs. Oval Concepts; is there a difference there?
> 
> Also, I'm not sure resale value is relevant (I'm buying a bike to ride, not part out) but would like to know if there are any studies that compare wattage savings due to less drag with various frames? I saw one for wheelsets, and that sort of quantitative analysis is more definitive than "outdated" and other descriptions that are quite nebulous.


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## Aravilar (Feb 12, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> just FYI, the BD site is up to tricks at every turn. The supposed list price of the legend on their site is for another model. The ultegra build has a list of about 2400. Colorado cyclist has the same model for the same price as BD.
> 
> You won't find a study of the aero differences between these two frames. I don't think you're quite getting the bigger picture here. The immortal is a heavy, outdated design sold with a manufacturer label that is just a sticker - BD bought the rights to the name motobecane and the bike has no connection to the real company, which went bankrupt in the 80s. The kestrel is a real manufacturer, a frame that is 450 grams lighter (that's a lot), has better design features (e.g., BB30, tapered fork) and a warranty. There's no comparison.


I've been comparing these bikes on the basis of the Kestrel being $2,379 (with "$250" in store credit) and the Immortal Ice being $1,999. I'm not sure where the confusion comes from, since the BD site is rather explicit about the price. You've made your bias very clear with all the snipes at BD.

I'm interested in buying a complete bicycle, not a frame. Therefore, I want to consider the ALL-IN weight and features of the bike. The Kestrel has house brand components with a lighter frame and the Immortal has "better" components with a heavier frame so I'm curious what the overall weight is.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that brand names are designed to prey on the fallacies of human decision-making; I'm not interested in brands unless it's going to have a functional purpose. I'm aware Motobecane is a sticker, just like Kestrel, and just like other brand names have been bought. If nothing else, that should illustrate the uselessness of using brand name as a criterion for buying.

Companies introduce features not necessarily for performance but also to provide reasons to upgrade. Weight is something that functionally impacts my performance (whether 100g makes a difference or not is another question). $400 makes a difference and I'm not really interested in buying a heavier bike for a higher price just because of some supposed design benefits.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

funny how BD threads seem to always have a newly joined poster whose only posts are in the BD thread - the idea that the difference between this Kestrel Legend and the immortal ice comes down to the weight of the components that aren't part of the same ultegra group is ridiculous. First, you're not going to get a 450 gram difference that way, and even if you did the Kestrel would still be IN ANOTHER LEAGUE. 

Your comment about brands sounds like typical BD misdirection. Kestrel is a pioneer in carbon fiber frame development. They actually design their bikes. Motobecane is a name BD bought to put a sticker on the generic frames they source from Asia. In this case, it's not even a decent generic frame. It's an old boat anchor based on outmoded production technology. 

My comment about the pricing was an attempt to be helpful when I thought you might actually be someone thinking about buying one of these bikes. The BD says "compare at $4500" on the Kestrel page. This is bogus. It's referring to another model of the bike. The idea that the list of the immortal is $3995 is also bogus. They pretend not to be the only seller of motobecane so suckers fall for this pricing nonsense. Go ahead and buy the immortal if you want a junk frame. Hope it doesn't break because you'll be SOL.



Aravilar said:


> I've been comparing these bikes on the basis of the Kestrel being $2,379 (with "$250" in store credit) and the Immortal Ice being $1,999. I'm not sure where the confusion comes from, since the BD site is rather explicit about the price. You've made your bias very clear with all the snipes at BD.
> 
> I'm interested in buying a complete bicycle, not a frame. Therefore, I want to consider the ALL-IN weight and features of the bike. The Kestrel has house brand components with a lighter frame and the Immortal has "better" components with a heavier frame so I'm curious what the overall weight is.
> 
> ...


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

i hope to god you know what you just purchased. that looks hideous.


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## Aravilar (Feb 12, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> funny how BD threads seem to always have a newly joined poster whose only posts are in the BD thread - the idea that the difference between this Kestrel Legend and the immortal ice comes down to the weight of the components that aren't part of the same ultegra group is ridiculous. First, you're not going to get a 450 gram difference that way, and even if you did the Kestrel would still be IN ANOTHER LEAGUE.
> 
> Your comment about brands sounds like typical BD misdirection. Kestrel is a pioneer in carbon fiber frame development. They actually design their bikes. Motobecane is a name BD bought to put a sticker on the generic frames they source from Asia. In this case, it's not even a decent generic frame. It's an old boat anchor based on outmoded production technology.
> 
> My comment about the pricing was an attempt to be helpful when I thought you might actually be someone thinking about buying one of these bikes. The BD says "compare at $4500" on the Kestrel page. This is bogus. It's referring to another model of the bike. The idea that the list of the immortal is $3995 is also bogus. They pretend not to be the only seller of motobecane so suckers fall for this pricing nonsense. Go ahead and buy the immortal if you want a junk frame. Hope it doesn't break because you'll be SOL.


Of course someone interested in BD would post in the BD thread just like someone interested in buying a Trek would post in a Trek thread. Maybe you'd like to use some facts instead of raging. I saw the Amazon listing for Kestrel quoting the 2013 model as ~18lb stock, and the 2014 model has some changed components. 

And Schwinn puts their sticker on Walmart bikes now; brand names are meant to cause irrational purchase decisions. If you want to subsidize someone's marketing job, go for it.

The word "compare" on the BD site is synonymous with "look at this price of Trek/Specialized/Giant/etc model"; the word "list" refers to the MSRP for their house brands. Whether the Kestrel is comparable to whatever "brand name" model is another issue but they clearly label the MSRP and the MAP of the Kestrel Legend correctly. I hope you're also not stupid enough to care what any company says the MSRP is.


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## easyridernyc (Jan 10, 2008)

Save Up to 60% Off Shimano Ultegra equipped Road Bikes, Tri Bikes - Kestrel Legend Ultegra Road Bikes

nice bike. but I don't see much reason in hating on the ice, a light monocoque with solid bits, I say ride the mf like you stole it. I almost got the bd di2 build just for the hell of it, I think it was just over 2 g's. whatever. not the best value on a site that probably has better value, but I think you got a decent bike. go on and ride bro


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you're the reason there's so much hate for BD on this site. You start a new account pretending you're comparison shopping for a new bike but really you're just shilling for the BD house brand by pretending you're concerned that the Kestrel is going to end up weighing more etc. Then you start bashing 'name brands.' Then you clarify BD's policy on their pricing - not many first-time buyers are educated only about BD's pricing on what 'compare' means or MAP.

The intent of the 'compare' on BD is to give the impression that the sale price is a huge discount. This is why it's so prominent and why the msrp is hidden in the text below the reviews. 

Coming in here pretending to be customers is just part of the BS business model of BD. Kestrel is going to hear from me that their frame is being bashed by BD to sell BD house brand frames. 




Aravilar said:


> Of course someone interested in BD would post in the BD thread just like someone interested in buying a Trek would post in a Trek thread. Maybe you'd like to use some facts instead of raging. I saw the Amazon listing for Kestrel quoting the 2013 model as ~18lb stock, and the 2014 model has some changed components.
> 
> And Schwinn puts their sticker on Walmart bikes now; brand names are meant to cause irrational purchase decisions. If you want to subsidize someone's marketing job, go for it.
> 
> The word "compare" on the BD site is synonymous with "look at this price of Trek/Specialized/Giant/etc model"; the word "list" refers to the MSRP for their house brands. Whether the Kestrel is comparable to whatever "brand name" model is another issue but they clearly label the MSRP and the MAP of the Kestrel Legend correctly. I hope you're also not stupid enough to care what any company says the MSRP is.


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## Aravilar (Feb 12, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> you're the reason there's so much hate for BD on this site. You start a new account pretending you're comparison shopping for a new bike but really you're just shilling for the BD house brand by pretending you're concerned that the Kestrel is going to end up weighing more etc. Then you start bashing 'name brands.' Then you clarify BD's policy on their pricing - not many first-time buyers are educated only about BD's pricing on what 'compare' means or MAP.
> 
> The intent of the 'compare' on BD is to give the impression that the sale price is a huge discount. This is why it's so prominent and why the msrp is hidden in the text below the reviews.
> 
> Coming in here pretending to be customers is just part of the BS business model of BD. Kestrel is going to hear from me that their frame is being bashed by BD to sell BD house brand frames.


I don't really care whether you and the lycra crowd hate BD; I just want someone with the actual bike (apparently not you) to give me the weight I need. 

You spend a lot of time making assumptions on here; I'm not a first-time buyer and have probably done significantly more research than you. Unfortunately, bike and components sales is incredibly shady and no one wants to publish their actual weights. Maybe you should start bashing every other manufacturer that doesn't want to post weights or even ranges. 

The intent of MSRP is to give impression that the "current" price is a huge discount. It works because consumers are stupid; recently, JCPenny tried to implement "honest pricing" and all it did was get the CEO fired. The MAP is the "real" MSRP, if anything. That's why the Kestrel is $2,379 nearly everywhere. Oddly enough, the Amazon site lists a higher MSRP for the model than BD (Amazon.com: 2014 Kestrel Legend Shimano Ultegra Matte Carbon Silver Fiber Road Bike: Sports & Outdoors). lol.

Spend less time hating BD and more time reading, bro.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I'll let Steve Fairchild know about this thread and the apparent practice of some Kestrel dealers bashing the brand to promote their own in-house brands. Maybe he'll give you the weight data you're pretending is relevant to a decision between these two bikes (because it's totally plausible that you're really just an interested customer....). 



Aravilar said:


> I don't really care whether you and the lycra crowd hate BD; I just want someone with the actual bike (apparently not you) to give me the weight I need.
> 
> You spend a lot of time making assumptions on here; I'm not a first-time buyer and have probably done significantly more research than you. Unfortunately, bike and components sales is incredibly shady and no one wants to publish their actual weights. Maybe you should start bashing every other manufacturer that doesn't want to post weights or even ranges.
> 
> ...


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## Aravilar (Feb 12, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> I'll let Steve Fairchild know about this thread and the apparent practice of some Kestrel dealers bashing the brand to promote their own in-house brands. Maybe he'll give you the weight data you're pretending is relevant to a decision between these two bikes (because it's totally plausible that you're really just an interested customer....).


I'm going to assume Steve Fairchild is smart enough to have the same opinion of your intelligence and prejudice that I do.


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