# any smoking deals on lighting systems in the summer?



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

I don't think I want to do another winter with my 12 year old Niterider. What should I get? Any great deals out there?


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Light & Motion Ultra HID $447 on eBay. Once you try this light, you'll think your Niterider is a joke...


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

wipeout said:


> Light & Motion Ultra HID $447 on eBay. Once you try this light, you'll think your Niterider is a joke...


 I was thinking/hoping for under $200....


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## FrontRanger (May 19, 2004)

REI has a bunch on clearance.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

Some of the Dinotte systems are on sale (try dinottelighting.com or geomangear.com or biketiresdirect.com). I have the Ultra 5w and think it is a great light. I also have a cygolite dualcross 300, which is very nice but I haven't seen it on sale.

I'm sure some will disagree, but I don't think HIDs are worth the cost.


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## khill (Mar 4, 2004)

I generally just wait for a 20% off coupon from one of the major retailers and then buy online. I did that a couple of years ago and got a Light & Motion HID for about $270.

You don't need a HID but they're the best lights I've seen in person. I night ride quite a bit (mountain biking and road) and none of the other riders I've seen have anything brighter.

It's pretty easy for me to justify spending lots of money on lights, though, since I consider them safety equipment.


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## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

khill said:


> You don't need a HID but they're the best lights I've seen in person. I night ride quite a bit (mountain biking and road) and none of the other riders I've seen have anything brighter.


I am also looking but have to keep it inexpensive. Should I avoid the LED lights then? I keep seeing HID instead or are they two different issues?


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Different technologies*



zeytin said:


> I am also looking but have to keep it inexpensive. Should I avoid the LED lights then? I keep seeing HID instead or are they two different issues?


LED and HID lights are quite different. There are three basic types of lamps used in bicycle lighting today:

Halogen: This are basically simple filament bulbs (like a regular lightbulb) that have been "hopped up" for more light output. (Techie stuff: Halogen bulbs are filled with a special gas, called a halogen, which allows the filament to run hotter without burning out as quickly, and thus produce more light per Watt of power than a non-halogen filament bulb). Halogen lights are simple in design and relatively economic, but don't have the same efficiency** as the LED and HID lights. (See below about light efficiency)

HID: Stands for High Intensity Discharge. These lamps are basically minature arc lamps, and produce more light per Watt of power than filament bulbs. However, they also must run at very high voltages (several hundred Volts), so the system must employ circuitry (called a ballast) to boost the battery voltage up to the lamp operating voltage. HID systems put out a lot of light for their size and wieght, but tend to be more complicated and much more expensive than Halogen systems. They may also be a bit more delicate, due to their greater complexity. Another downside is that HIDs are not available in low power models, so you'll either need a large battery or have to settle for a limited run time.

LED: Stands for Light Emitting Diode. LEDs are solid state light emitters, and so tend to be rugged and reliable. They are also much more efficient than Halogens, and even somewhat more efficient than HID lights, in terms of amount of light per Watt of power. However, they have two downsides at the moment. Presently, the available LEDs have lower power outputs than many Halogen and all HID units. The highest capacity LEDs have equivalent light output as a 5 or 8 Watt Halogen light. In addition, LEDs are not as focusable as Halogen and HID lights, and while they can put out a very even illumination, they typically can not put out a highly focused beam for throwing a beam for a long distance. However, due to their low power and lightweight, they can achieve very long run times.

The system that is best for you depends on many factors, including the amount of light you need, expected run times, and the size/weight of the battery you want to carry around - plus, of course, how much you are willing to spend. If the most light per dollar is your main concern, then Halogens are probably your best bet. If very long run-times are the main concern, the LEDs might be the best bet. And if you want the most possible light from the smallest possible package (and you have a lot of money to spend) then HIDs might be best option.

If, as you say, they must be inexpensive, then I'd recommend looking into basic Halogen systems. They might be a bit bulkier than LEDs and HIDs, but they produce the most light per dollar, they are simple to operate and maintain, and generally can be easily repaired.

**Efficiency: The most important consequence of lighting efficiency is run time vs. size/weight/cost of the battery. Because HIDs and LEDs are so efficient, you can achieve a longer run tim for a given battery size/weight/cost than you can for a Halogen system (for the same light output).


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Ok, so if I want to spend less than $200, commute 5 days a week in all kinds of weather, 30 minitues both ways (and sometimes the dark in each direction) and am mostly on a MUT, what should I get?


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Ok, so if I want to spend less than $200, commute 5 days a week in all kinds of weather, 30 minitues both ways (and sometimes the dark in each direction) and am mostly on a MUT, what should I get?


Do you mostly want to be seen by cagers, or do you actually want to see where you are going? < $200? I'd suggest the Light and Motion Solo Logic Li-ion Cub Solo - $199 at some places (like eBay)... Li-ion rocks, and this light will last 1.5 hours. I like the 5-6 hour lights since I frequently train in the dark, or do 24 hour events...


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Ok, so if I want to spend less than $200, commute 5 days a week in all kinds of weather, 30 minitues both ways (and sometimes the dark in each direction) and am mostly on a MUT, what should I get?


I'd highly recommend a Dinotte LED. There are many models for less than 200, they're light, and they have decent runtimes. Most of them run on 4 AA batteries (rechargables). Take four batteries for your commute in and four for your commute home. Or keep a charger at the office.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

wipeout said:


> Do you mostly want to be seen by cagers, or do you actually want to see where you are going? < $200? I'd suggest the Light and Motion Solo Logic Li-ion Cub Solo - $199 at some places (like eBay)... Li-ion rocks, and this light will last 1.5 hours. I like the 5-6 hour lights since I frequently train in the dark, or do 24 hour events...


Talked to the LBS about these today and the guy said the light output of the base Solo is just as good as the Solo Logic Li-ion Cub, just didn't have quite the run time or some of the features. Seems pretty good for $120 or so...


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

When I switched from halogen to HID, I was very happy despite the hefty price tag. I was using the CygoLite Nightrover halogen. The two bulbs with different beams were decent. However, switching to the Light and Motion Arc Li-ion was a revelation. The brightness is not even close and it makes a big difference for me. My commute is almost two hours and I leave early enough that the whole ride is before dawn. Some of my ride is on a road with tree canopy and no street lights and another large portion is on a MUT with the same characteristics, so even when the moon is out there is not much light. The added brightness of the HID is a huge plus for me.

Another big plus is that most HIDs will come with a "smart" battery so it is much harder to overcharge the battery. The battery for my halogen suffered very quickly even though I tried to charge it for the correct amount of time. I'm not sure if smart batteries are more common with halogens now, but they weren't when I got my CygoLite a few years ago.

Buying the HID hurt my wallet, but after using the HID for two winters I am very glad I bought it. I actually got mine for 20% off in September, but I'm not sure why it was on sale at the time.


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## Eiron (Sep 9, 2006)

Which Niterider do you have? Performance has the Niterider "Classic" 25W dual beam (10W flood & 15W spot, IIRC) on sale for $150. 6V NiMh battery w/2 hr run time & 9 hr recharge.

They've also got the Niterider Enduro HID for sale at $300. That's a fantastic price for an amazing light, but it's still a bit pricey for me. If I needed a new light I'd go for the Classic, but for now my 13 yr old basic Niterider single beam is still going strong.


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## Hollywood (Jan 16, 2003)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Talked to the LBS about these today and the guy said the light output of the base Solo is just as good as the Solo Logic Li-ion Cub, just didn't have quite the run time or some of the features. Seems pretty good for $120 or so...


one insider tip, if you can a) wait til September and b) know someone going to Interbike, NiteRider always has crazy prices there on some of their systems. Like $200-ish for an HID setup. Just an option....maybe a shop guy you know is going?


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Hollywood said:


> one insider tip, if you can a) wait til September and b) know someone going to Interbike, NiteRider always has crazy prices there on some of their systems. Like $200-ish for an HID setup. Just an option....maybe a shop guy you know is going?


Yeah, that's how I got the one I have now. Used to work in shops.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Eiron said:


> Which Niterider do you have? Performance has the Niterider "Classic" 25W dual beam (10W flood & 15W spot, IIRC) on sale for $150. 6V NiMh battery w/2 hr run time & 9 hr recharge.
> 
> They've also got the Niterider Enduro HID for sale at $300. That's a fantastic price for an amazing light, but it's still a bit pricey for me. If I needed a new light I'd go for the Classic, but for now my 13 yr old basic Niterider single beam is still going strong.


I might just do that. Did the Classic get discontinued? I don't see it on their site:

http://www.niterider.com/bike.shtml


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## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

Henry,
Thanks for asking this question I've also been wondering about this info. Though it's not my thread I'd like to thank everyone for the info since I've found it quite helpful.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Ok, just talked to the good folks at Niterider and the Classic series is discontinued for 2008. I already have one obsolete Niterider, I don't need two. Hmmmm...


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

*here's a good deal*

the cygolite

the cygolite li-ion version

both nice lights and both great deals


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

As posted above ... I understand you want to spend $200, but when I forked over the big bucks for a Light & Motion it was probably the best purchase I ever made for my bike. I know it's expensive, but it's worth it. In L.A., with all these road-raging lunatics, that light has saved my life on more than one occasion. A lot of times, cars will be at a stop sign two blocks aways and STILL wait for me. I guess the light is so bright they think I'm closer than I am.

I got the Li-Ion model. I forget to charge it all the time; I'll just throw it on my bike having no idea when the last time was that I charged it. And it's never even gone dim on me.

You can get the NiMh model I think for a lot less money. Probably closer to the $200 you want. The battery won't be as good but it's well worth it.

And if you're stuck in the $200 range no matter what .... I would get one of the less expensive Light & Motions. The quality is so good that it's a safe bet they'll be best in any category in which they sell a light.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

DrRoebuck said:


> As posted above ... I understand you want to spend $200, but when I forked over the big bucks for a Light & Motion it was probably the best purchase I ever made for my bike. I know it's expensive, but it's worth it. In L.A., with all these road-raging lunatics, that light has saved my life on more than one occasion. A lot of times, cars will be at a stop sign two blocks aways and STILL wait for me. I guess the light is so bright they think I'm closer than I am.
> 
> I got the Li-Ion model. I forget to charge it all the time; I'll just throw it on my bike having no idea when the last time was that I charged it. And it's never even gone dim on me.
> 
> ...


One issue is that the majority of my commute is on a MUT, and I don't want to blind riders coming the other way. I often get blinded by others with super high powered lights and it sucks. I won't be using this light to deal with cars that much, and I won't be using it off road. Plus I still can't get myhead around a $400 light.


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## khill (Mar 4, 2004)

If you want some detailed comparisons and good pictures of the actual lights, here are a couple of in-depth reviews:

MTBR Product Spotlight on Lights: http://www.mtbr.com/spotlight/lightshootout/

Review of 2007 LED Lights: http://www.gearreview.com/2007_led_lights.php


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## JohnnyTooBad (Apr 5, 2004)

On the other end of the spectrum.....

I ride an MUT almost exclusively for my commute. I use a 7 lamp LED from Performance. It was dirt cheap (probably under $40), and is the handlebar mount style with batteries in the int, and comes with rechargable batteries and charger.

It provides plenty of light for winter commutes. It has a low setting which uses less battery power, although it's very hard to tell the difference. If you're going to be going 30mph+ then you may outrun your light pattern, but I ride fairly fast (avg 20+), and never had an issue.

The one thing it doesn't have, that I wish it did, is the ability to blink. This would help on my short road section, because I don't really need the light due to street lamps, but would make me more noticable to cars. It also helps for the same reason during twilight.

For road riding, especially on MUTs, I don't think you need high powered lights (unless you're out in the country on roads with cars and no ambient lighting). And I'll add that even halogen is too bright for oncoming bikers and walkers on the MUT, and HID is downright dangerous, because it blinds the people coming at you.


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## aliensporebomb (Jul 2, 2002)

*Thinking........*

Before I talk about deals I'll talk about my commuting lights.

I started out with two Cateye EL300s. That was 10 white LEDs.

This provided me with enough light to see (barely) but I wouldn't dare
go with just one of them. This light has been discontinued in their 
product line I think in favor of newer brighter offerings.

I later had a Viewpoint 1 Watt Luxeon emitter headlight and that was 
great, pretty bright for LED until the mount broke was such that I could
not concoct a new one to put it on the bars and I returned it.

Lately, I'd tried one of the Cateye EL300s with two GRIP 28 white
LED flashlights- I made a webpage for this experiment - see 
"The 60 LED monstrosity" website at: http://pod.ath.cx/leds/Site 4/The 60+ led monstrosity.html

I used this for riding to and back for 7/4 fireworks and it was bright, but
not as bright as I could be and the two GRIP flashlights act more like
floodlights than spots so the one EL300 was doing duty as the spot 
and it was just a bit too dim. An interesting experiment though.

I finally went HID and got the thing yesterday afternoon. After charging
it up and going for a ride I was more than surprised. More on that later.

This is what I got - a Trailtech Eclipse 13watt HID helmet/bar light:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1395

There's also a $10 coupon on the internet (search for "batteryspace discount coupon"
on google) so with shipping it's just under $200 (I think it was $197 shipped).

I've heard that some people on MTBR.com had bad experiences with 
batteryspace.com, the place selling these but I've had no problems thus far.

I've heard that Trailtech, the company that makes the light has repeatedly 
changed the design of the switch to make it more water resistant although
Batteryspace sells a waterproof switch that can be used to replace the 
original - in my own case I'd just place a plastic bag around the switch 
if I saw signs of rain. The switch is a complex affair with LEDs to let you
know the state of the battery so I'm guessing that's what people were 
reporting issues with in the past. 

That being said, what's it like? How bright is it? First I went out on the 
road bike for about an hour before dusk and just rode with no lights at 
all so my eyes would adjust to the conditions. Then, at some opportune
point I kicked the HID light in.

OH MY GOSH, I had NO IDEA what this would be like. That sucker 
was as bright as daylight, I bought the spot version and the sphere of 
light that was emanating from the top of my helmet was making it 
possible to not only see the road very clearly several carlengths ahead 
of me but was about two carwidths wide - I was also clearly able to read 
my bike computer among other things. I'm going to be super excited to try 
this mountain biking at night too. I was getting reflections off of reflective
street signs about four city blocks away. Insanity.

It is, without doubt, the brightest bike headlight I've ever experienced.

Trailtech makes a brighter one that's 30 watts that's more spendy,
the 10 watt version is 550 lumens, the 13 watt one is 30% brighter
(probably around 700 lumen) than the 10 watt version and the big
30 watt version is 1875 lumen.

But: Cars were slowing down (I was taking care not to aim it at any) 
people were slowing down, a woman stopped her van in the street 
wondering what the heck it was and was stunned to see it was a guy 
on a bike. One guy honked at me, probably irritated. 

What can I say? HID is the way to go if you want to see and be seen. 
LED is improving but the new top of the line light from Lupine (1400 lumen)
would cost me effectively what I paid for my whole bike ($1400). 

So, anyway, your mileage may vary but if you want to go HID for the
least possible price this is the way to go.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Yeah, but those things really suck for riders coming the other way on the MUT.


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## aliensporebomb (Jul 2, 2002)

It's up to the rider with the big beam to keep your head in a position so that you're 
not aiming directly at the other riders eyesockets - when I commuted regularly 
there was a guy who had a very bright HID on his helmet, another uber bright 
halogen on his bars and two LEDs on the underside of his bars. You could see 
the guy coming from literally five miles away so you knew when not to look directly 
at him (Cedar Lake trail going into Mpls from Hopkins). 

But yeah, not neighborly to shine right at the other guys face "HI! BRIGHT ENOUGH
FOR YA?"


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## Eiron (Sep 9, 2006)

This is good information to have, but why do you feel this light is obsolete? Did they say why it was being discontinued?

Obviously, it's their original assembly design (faceplate mounting screws on the front) & looks dated compared to their current "sleek" housing designs. But their website shows they're still using these original designs for their law enforcement & diving products. There have to be tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of these original designs in use, so NR can't easily abandon support of these products. I think all their new halogen models take the same replacement parts & mounting options as the original ones.

It also offers the ability to dim for MUT traffic (but I don't know how the switch works, so it may not be convenient). With all that said, I still think this is a viable option for your needs.

With all the info in this thread, what are you leaning towards?


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Eiron said:


> This is good information to have, but why do you feel this light is obsolete? Did they say why it was being discontinued?
> 
> Obviously, it's their original assembly design (faceplate mounting screws on the front) & looks dated compared to their current "sleek" housing designs. But their website shows they're still using these original designs for their law enforcement & diving products. There have to be tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of these original designs in use, so NR can't easily abandon support of these products. I think all their new halogen models take the same replacement parts & mounting options as the original ones.
> 
> ...


Right now I'm leaning toward the Light and Motion Solo for $120 at the LBS.

http://www.bikelights.com/Products/Solo.htm


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## superjohnny (May 16, 2006)

MUT=multi-use trail it has taken me forever to figure that out. I to am looking to pick up a good winter-riding light. Must be water proof or close to it. I've not used any of them, but heard good things about the Light & Motion.


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## jbierling (Mar 30, 2006)

I've heard it recommended to buy the Trailtech HID directly from Trailtech. That's what I did.

http://trailtech.net/

-Joel


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## frank_grupt (Jun 28, 2004)

If you're handy, raid the local home supply shop for rechargeable 12 volt tool batteries and a 20 watt outdoor halogen light. Those, plus a few tube clamps and zip ties, and you can have a powerful, dependable, light for around $50. There are lots of instructions online.


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## GeoManGear (Jul 3, 2007)

llama31 said:


> Some of the Dinotte systems are on sale (try dinottelighting.com or geomangear.com or biketiresdirect.com). I have the Ultra 5w and think it is a great light. I also have a cygolite dualcross 300, which is very nice but I haven't seen it on sale.
> 
> I'm sure some will disagree, but I don't think HIDs are worth the cost.



Thanks for the mention! I just noticed this thread - some good observations.

We've been selling the Dinotte systems for some time. They are rugged, effective, and beautiful. The new 200L sells for under $150 (plug) and is very popular.

That being said, there's been a lot of interest and great reviews for the Lupines. If price is no object, the Wilma 6 at 830 LED lumens is BRIGHT!

Food for thought.


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