# Do high end Road Bikes make much difference??



## Originalyappa (Aug 20, 2007)

Hi,
I currently ride a retro Eddy Merckx steel frame bought about 9 years ago, i am looking at buying either a Look 595, Pinarello Paris, or a Time VXR Pro Team. 
Would getting a high end road bike make that much difference?

I hear alot of people talking about its a more "comfortable" ride or a ride with more control and that is more responsive. But how much faster would it be over say, a 60-80km road ride?

And the end of the day is there that much "significant" difference in performance?

Your experiences and opinions needed before i take the plunge on a high end road bike.

Thanks


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

i have just built up my first high end road bike(595 ultra), yes it feels faster, does it go faster i dont know, i know it feels stiffer i feel much more raod shock now. How much faster over a 60-80km ride depends on how much more you ride the new bike and how much fitter you become because of this. It does look faster.


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## Originalyappa (Aug 20, 2007)

Yes its this difference bewteen 'feeling' faster and actually being faster that i am trying to work out. 
Yeah i am really keen to get a new bike, but what if i ride my current bike more and train harder, would i be accomplishing the same thing without spend thousands of dollars/pounds?


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Originalyappa said:


> Yes its this difference bewteen 'feeling' faster and actually being faster that i am trying to work out.
> Yeah i am really keen to get a new bike, but what if i ride my current bike more and train harder, would i be accomplishing the same thing without spend thousands of dollars/pounds?


Yep. There is not a lot of performance difference between one 'good' frame and another. There are marginal changes in comfort and perhaps in handling. Mostly, handling isn't going to get you down the road a lot faster - it's useful for racing, but that's because accumulated meters matter when racing. If just riding for sport, those few seconds disappear. 

'Stiffer' is a double-edged sword. It _may _make a small difference in power transmission, but that's never been proven. Meanwhile it will cause more fatigue from discomfort, which could very well slow you down. The same sensation that makes a bike 'feel faster' feels like something entirely other in the last 15 miles of a century.

Weight? A few seconds here and there if you live in the mountains. Training more and carrying less junk around is a much cheaper alternative, and a truly light bike nearly always gives up something in either handling or stiffness (which are causally related).

Comfort? Fuggedaboudit. All the "wows" about a really great, comfortable new steed end with the line "almost as good as a fine steel bike." Carbon is nice, Ti is fantastic, but steel is still the standard. (This said by someone who owns carbon and Ti, so not some goofy Fe fanboy.)

Fit is paramount. 
Good wheels second. 
The rest is playing around for the fun of it. 
Which at the end, is the best possible reason to get a new bike.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Differences*



Originalyappa said:


> Yes its this difference bewteen 'feeling' faster and actually being faster that i am trying to work out. Yeah i am really keen to get a new bike, but what if i ride my current bike more and train harder, would i be accomplishing the same thing without spend thousands of dollars/pounds?


If your only concern is speed for effort expended, then a new frame will have zero impact. Aero wheels could give you as much as 0.3 mph (0.5 km/hr) compared to 32 spoke box section rims at 20 mph (32 km/hr). You buy a new bike because you want to upgrade the whole package: better shifting, 10 speed, etc. If your current Eddy Merckx fits you well, you will gain a lot more speed from a structured training program than from a bike purchase.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I'm riding a '94 steel DeRosa that I bought new in '94. Like almost everyone I get new bike fever from time to time. Fortunately, I live near a major metropolitan area. I go shopping and ride maybe a half-dozen bikes that interest me. I generally do this once per year. So far every time I've done that I've always come home, hopped on the DeRosa, and after a short ride I find myself saying to myself, "But...I like this bike sooo much."

I will admit that a few years ago I bought a used Panasonic from my LBS to use as a commuter. It's really a pretty nice bike. I paid $40 for it.


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## tonykara (Jul 23, 2006)

...................


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## tonykara (Jul 23, 2006)

ive got a top end bianchi carbon, which replaced my old giant tcr2. is it better?Sure its lighter, more comfortable, steers a little better, feels stiffer and looks heaps nicer...but 3 time the price (thats what i paid) does not make it a 3 times better bike.

dont forget that fausto coppi won 2 TDF on a bike that most would laugh at and im sure that there would be very few people that could do better regardless of the bike they ride.

if you are after something that is going to give you some extra seconds in a race...the flash bike is the go.

i bought mine because i wanted a new bike, i had the money so i though why not.

its just like buying a car, sure the new Holden HSV is comparable to the BMW M5 in performance and it costs $150k less but i know which one i would buy


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Mr. Versatile said:


> I'm riding a '94 steel DeRosa that I bought new in '94. Like almost everyone I get new bike fever from time to time. Fortunately, I live near a major metropolitan area. I go shopping and ride maybe a half-dozen bikes that interest me. I generally do this once per year. So far every time I've done that I've always come home, hopped on the DeRosa, and after a short ride I find myself saying to myself, "But...I like this bike sooo much."
> 
> I will admit that a few years ago I bought a used Panasonic from my LBS to use as a commuter. It's really a pretty nice bike. I paid $40 for it.


Thank-you. 
Last month I looked at a Time VXS Ultegra build and thought..."Hmmm this might be nice under me." When I ride my current rigs, I'm still quite pleased. I may wish for the brake lever shifting and lighter weight but since I'm such a slow-poke these days...it's near pointless to buy a rig at this caliber. Still those urges...


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## hooper (Jul 22, 2006)

as someone in the market and test riding high end frames, I find everyone to be different with their own unique characteristics. Finish quality, frame tube style, ride are all subjective and when you shut down your mind and simple get in touch with the bike you will know how I feel. Some bike feel perfectly molded together and responsive. some more heavy some absorb more vibration than others some are stiffer. Thats whats great about choice. Tune out everything but the ride and you will find a frame that will speak to you and you will know when it belongs in your hands. yes it makes a difference to the experience you have when you ride. Will it improve your riding. Probably not directly but if you want to ride it faster than your current ride and enjoy it more than yes it sure will improve your riding. Sure is more fun to drive a BMW than a Taurus.


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## Howzitbroke (Jun 1, 2005)

I believe that it is really hard to beat a high end steel bike on traditional hoops with 25c tires for ride quality. Which is exactly what you own. You would probably gain most from STI/Ergo shifters in terms of speed. They make shifting when you need easy. Some may argue too easy but either way shifting when you are climbing on the hoods either sitting or standing does a lot to keep momentum. A lighter bike will accelerate easier and feel faster winding up to speed but once at speed weight becomes much less of an issue. If you ride rolling hills often the lighter bike may make the short ups feel better, until you begin to get toasted then the bike won't matter. I say if you have the cash get a new bike, and enjoy it. What is the harm in that?


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## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

Is there a difference? yes Will it make you faster? no. The main differences will feel, ride, handling, acceleration. I have ridden both aluminum and steel bikes in the $8-900 range and there is a noticable difference imeadiately between them and the so called high end bikes. Where the bikes in the $8-900 range felt mushy and somewhat imprecise; the highend bikes feel scapel sharp. A friend of mine just switched from a a mid 90's C'dale that he paid about $1.5k for, to a Look kg461. I told him that the only thing the two have in common is that they are both bicycles. Kind of funny that he agrees. He wasn't expecting that big of a difference. Am I or he any faster on our current bikes vs a $900 bike? no. It is the feel, the responsivness that you get accustomed to. I currently have 2 what you would call high end road bikes; a 92 Paramount (steel) w/Campy Record (7 spd old school from my racing days) and 04 Abici Vader (aluminum/cf rear end) w/Dura-Ace. I also have a 06 Guerciotti Cartesio frame that I need to build up. A high end bike wont make you faster but it will make biking more pleasurable.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Nope.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

i'd say " hell yes ". i used to ride Walmat's bike and Target's bike for couple months before i went to road bike ( alum. Giant with Shimano Sora, my first ever road bike ) man, for sure i rode faster and felt smoother for the long ride ( 30 miles ) then i was 200+ lbs. now after 3 years of constant-riding, i'm now 155 lbs. i've lost more 70 lbs of couch-video game-weights. this past winter i wanted to upgrade and i bought Trek Madone with full D/A 10 ( my first ever carbon bike ) and Zipp 404 tubulars ( my first carbon wheels ) and lately my first carbon handle bar/stem ( FSA's Plasma ) man now i CAN really feel the different. am i going faster than my previous bikes?? well just a " little " faster ( told myself to be more humble from now on )


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## texbike (Oct 21, 2004)

*Put your $$$ and attention in a good training program...*

I'm not sure which model Merckx you have, but most steel Merckxs ARE high-end bikes.

I have a 90s era Merckx MX Leader, a Moots, and a C40. I can honestly say that I'm not significantly faster on either of the "higher end" bikes compared to the MXL. The Moots and the C40 are both lighter and climb a bit better than the Merckx, but they haven't increased my performance by any real margin. 

Any model steel Merckx (Corsa, Corsa Extra, Corsa 01, Leader, etc.) is a wonderful, capable machine. These were a European race standard for many years. 

If your bike fits, you like it, and it is in good shape, stick with it. Invest the money in a good coach. If you are serious about being faster and willing to commit to a program, you will see much more return per dollar on a training program than you will on a new machine.

However, I do understand bike lust....... 

Texbike


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

You can't race that old steel bike, there's no way, it's too old and too steel it will never work you need to get rid of it and buy something all new in carbon fiber perhaps and get rid of that old heavy bike, it is too slow to race on, pls let me know when trash day is in your neighborhood


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## ghostzapper2007 (May 22, 2007)

Originalyappa said:


> Hi,
> I currently ride a retro Eddy Merckx steel frame bought about 9 years ago, i am looking at buying either a Look 595, Pinarello Paris, or a Time VXR Pro Team.
> Would getting a high end road bike make that much difference?
> 
> ...



Hard to say. Some higher end bikes will actually ride harsher than your Merckx particularly the ones which tend to be all out race machines or crit type machines. Comfort is probably most determined by correct fit, not whether the bike costs $1000, or $9000. 

IMO, at the end of the day, the biggest difference between a mid level Ultegra or Centaur outfitted road bike and a $7-9000 road bike is the difference to your wallet, ego gratification and possibly aesthetics. From a performance standpoint almost all of your performance will be determined by your engine, not your bike. It is extraordinary IMO how much people obsess in trying to buy that last 1% of performance gain through their equipment. Aerowheels will certainly help improve your time over a 60-80K ride, but I seriously doubt your time will improve because you go from your Merckx frame to a Serotta Medivici $6k frame. Most guys do not require custom fitting. A good rider on a $800 bike will trash you on your $7k bike if he's in better shape and/or a better rider. One of my favorite local rides is a 12 km switchback climb which although not super long has some very steep sections, average grade is about 9%. I regularly run across a guy who climbs this hill on an old Specialized Santa Cruz hybrid and have seen him even hook up into the local riding groups which frequent this hill on the weekends. This guy regularly drops a fair number of pretty solid local roadies, including several with high zoot carbon frames. As Lance used to say, it's not about the bike, though many try to make it out to be that way.

Since you are riding an older Merckx bike by retro did you mean downtube shifters? If so, what I do think you would appreciate a lot coming to a more modern bike is the integrated shifting/brake levers used on road bikes nowadays, but you do not need to go to a Look 595 or Time VX frame to get that.


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## j__h (Jun 16, 2006)

No, but red paint on the bicycle does make you faster.


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## Originalyappa (Aug 20, 2007)

Thanks for your input, the comments are definately cooling me down from pursuing to buy a new high end carbon bike in the near future. 
Its actually motivating me to push harder on my Merckx. 

To give you a better idea of what i am riding it is a Eddy Merckx Corsa 01, with 105 Groupset (STI as well) and Mavic Elite 2 Wheels. 

I took my Merckx to my LBS mechanic, and after fixing it he took it for a test ride to check that it was all good, and i was pleasantly surprised by his feedback on how much a 'nice' ride it was.

I think my bike weighs in about 12kgs.


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## Originalyappa (Aug 20, 2007)

Thanks for your input, the comments are definately cooling me down from pursuing to buy a new high end carbon bike in the near future. 
Its actually motivating me to push harder on my Merckx. 

To give you a better idea of what i am riding it is a Eddy Merckx Corsa 01, with 105 Groupset (STI as well) and Mavic Elite 2 Wheels. 

I took my Merckx to my LBS mechanic, and after fixing it he took it for a test ride to check that it was all good, and i was pleasantly surprised by his feedback on how much a 'nice' ride it was.

I think my bike weighs in about 12kgs.


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

If you go from a 21 lbs. bike to a 16 lbs. bike, it is VERY likely you will be faster if you ride significant hills, or have lots of stop signs or stop and go riding.
Its always funny to me how those who say you will not go faster always ride higher grade stuff. Now if you are going from an 18 lbs. steel bike to a 17 lbs. carbon bike with similar wheels then no, you probably will not be any faster. Or if you ride long flat stretches even a 4 or 5 lbs. difference may not matter.


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## j__h (Jun 16, 2006)

Originalyappa said:


> Thanks for your input, the comments are definately cooling me down from pursuing to buy a new high end carbon bike in the near future.
> Its actually motivating me to push harder on my Merckx.
> 
> To give you a better idea of what i am riding it is a Eddy Merckx Corsa 01, with 105 Groupset (STI as well) and Mavic Elite 2 Wheels.
> ...


On a real note, a couple years ago I went from a 1991 Aluminum cannondale to a Carbon Specialized Roubaix, (ride something different these days though) the ride was more comfortable on the Roubaix which basically led me to riding more often, which means I did get faster, but it was not due to the bicycle, but was due to riding more.

I say, get the bike if you have the disposable income. Blings not bad if you can afford it and want it. Besides, getting a new bike for yourself always acts as encouragement to ride more often.


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## yessl (Nov 1, 2005)

*Generic High End Bike Review...*

From NYCBikeSnob
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2007/08/bsnyc-2008-dream-bike-shootout.html


Now, granted, I didn’t ride the Tarmac SL2, but I was able to tell just by looking at the pictures that the carbon fiber construction and layup yielded a frame that was laterally stiff yet vertically compliant. The SRAM Red components not only shifted flawlessly, but they also outclassed both Dura Ace and Record since Force was already on the Dura Ace/Record level and so this is even better. (Those of you who have been waiting to make sure that SRAM gets more expensive before jumping on the bandwagon were wise to do so.) To put it simply, this bike climbs like a squirrel, descends like a greased squirrel on a luge, corners like a decagon, and accelerates like a methamphetamine-addicted rabbit. (Or like a Porsche being driven by a methamphetamine-addicted rabbit.) Overall, the effect of getting on this bike is like getting on one of those moving walkways in the airport--you feel like you’re going twice as fast, and you feel twice as smart as the idiots who didn’t bother getting on the walkway and just kept walking on the regular floor. And getting on any other bike afterwards is like when you get off the walkway and feel as though you’ve just stepped onto another planet with a completely different gravitational pull.

The Bottom Line

Buy It If: You want the best bike in the entire world.
Don’t Buy It If: You’re an idiot.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

Be honest now. You are worried that your bike is holding you back, but in your heart you know that this isn't true. In your heart you just want a new one.
So buy a bike. It's the best reason there is.
A friend said, you know, I'll never own a Ferrari car or a Da Vinci painting, but for not that much money I can own pretty much the best bicycle made. 
I first bought top-shelf stuff to moot the equipment issue as a psychological barrier. For so long as the equipment remained better than I was, I had no excuse to look elsewhere than my own body and mind.
Plus it's fun.


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## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

*Carrot and Kool-aid*

Use the new bike as a carrot. This was my approach. I had a very similar vintage Serrotta 853 steel that was just fine as a train/race bike but was a little older (8 years) and 20lbs. Started thinking of a new bike this time last year. Found “THE ONE” than road hard through the entire winter to justify to myself the purchase. The best part – I dropped 25lbs (170-145) than a solid 5 lbs from the bike. The carrot was worth it – LOVE the new carbon ride and I feel like I’m doing it justice. Come on Drink the Kool-aid the rest of us have.


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## tschramm (May 13, 2007)

GH-Mike said:


> Use the new bike as a carrot. This was my approach. I had a very similar vintage Serrotta 853 steel that was just fine as a train/race bike but was a little older (8 years) and 20lbs. Started thinking of a new bike this time last year. Found “THE ONE” than road hard through the entire winter to justify to myself the purchase. The best part – I dropped 25lbs (170-145) than a solid 5 lbs from the bike. The carrot was worth it – LOVE the new carbon ride and I feel like I’m doing it justice. Come on Drink the Kool-aid the rest of us have.


I am also using this approach. I have a new, but lower / middle end bike. It is nice, but I would really like something with more bling. So I have told myself that when I can do a 40KM time trial in under 1:10 I will upgrade to something nicer. I don't need motivation to ride, but this does provide me with motivation to ride harder.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

*If it calls to you (and you can afford it) buy it.*

I've been riding race bikes for about 35 years. I don't replace my old bikes with new ones very often, but when I do I try to get as close to the current state of the art as I can without spending an arm and a leg. I'd say, on average, I buy a new bike every seven years or so; though at one point I waited fifteen years before doing a switch. I've also been able to save most of my old bikes. I can pretty much ride any of my adult life's road bikes at any time.

And let me tell you, with one exception, I have never regretted the purchase of a new bike. Every new bicycle I've purchased (except one) has made my riding considerably more enjoyable, and has also netted me a couple mph extra speed. Whether this is due to the panacea effect I do not know, but my average speeds never went down from those initial new highs. This gain in speed happens despite the fact that time marches on, and that every time I get a new bike I'm about seven years older. Every new bicycle I've bought (with one exception) has caused me to put my older bike to pasture. They've all allowed me to go further, as well as faster. They've all allowed me to spend more time in the saddle, on the road.

My most recent change involved replacing my Aluminum Colnago Dream with a carbon Time Edge Translink. Before the Colnago, I had a Columbus SL, lugged Somec.

And that one exception? A Rivendell Rambouillet I bought while I had the Colnago. A retro-bike. The only bike I ever bought that had no pretensions of being state-of-the-art. it was slower. It was less comfortable. I got rid of it after two years.

In other words, my experience tells me that you might do well purchasing a new bike. Though most of the folks on this board have a predilection toward the old stuff, I've personally found that the state-of-the-art does advance...and that that advancement creates a more enjoyable riding experience.


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## ciclisto (Nov 8, 2005)

*reply*

i have a steel custom frame made for me 20 years ago , i also have a new C-50 Colnago , I have ridden almost any frame you care to mention including the new madone trek.
My 2c When I ride my colnago I love it's lightness handling climbing etc. it is why i bought it, but I switch every two weeks and after 20 minutes on my steel bike It's like I'm home I love this sl/sp frame. Yes new high frames are nice, the time vxr proteam and the 585 are the best out there in my opinion. especially the Time . But good wheels I found out make a BIG difference I always cheaped out on wheels, get the best you can. these discussions are moot as steel is what it is, a great bike frame and a good one is a life time bike, the new stuff is well new, If i had to choose only one it would be my Holland steel, as I do not know what carbon will end up like. As smooth as my C-50 is it is not a steel. Difference is steel is compliant over all types of bumps the carbon while smoother over smaller bumps does not do as well over large upbrupt bumps (pot holes etc) just my take, I like them all in fact I am waiting for a new derosa in aluminum and carbon for my trainer next week but with nice wheels. test rides should be more than a spin around the parking lot, try at least 1/2 hour. Life's problem should all be like this, ..........over and out.


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## plag (Apr 30, 2007)

This kinds of reminds me of my golf equipment, do i need new irons or driver? No. Will it make me better? Maybe Maybe not. But hey we all have that itch for the latest and greatest. Funny thing is that as much as I always try and convince myself that I dont need it I always end up giving in and buying it. Im having that same problem right now with a new bike.


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## thedips (Mar 26, 2007)

i started riding the local crit and its so easy to see alot of the newest bestest stuff out there ... but you also see a few classics... i see buying a new bike like buying a new car.. yeah there is alot of technology and want not and it would be really cool to have the latest and greatest.. but i always appreciate seeing a sweet classic more...


ps....

if its any help i currently ride a look frame.. and swear by look i love the line .. but i recently was in HELENS CYCLES here in LA to get some parts and jumped on a TIME EDGE took it around the block.. .and swear that i would make that my next purchase.. the detail of the time carbon is ridiculous and it feels great underneath and the geometry of their bike felt really comfortable to me with minor adjustments.. the look is great and trust me im totally LOOK bias! but TIME is an awesome bike...


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## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

ciclisto said:


> Life's problem should all be like this.
> 
> Well said - what a wonderful problem to have. Opinion/Passion is one thing - perspective another.
> 
> ...


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## Sixty Fiver (Jul 7, 2007)

A great bike is a great bike no matter how old it is and a Merckx is a really great bike.

I just came in from tonight's ride which was on a 45 year old (1962) Peugeot fixed gear and this morning and afternoon I was riding my 1955 Raleigh fixed gear.


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## pitstoppaul (Jun 30, 2007)

Agree with JH and GH, the new bike might not make you that much faster per se (it's definitely about the biker, not the bike), but it can help keep you motivated. I had an Allez that was perfectly fine, but came across an awesome deal on a S-Works Tarmac and jumped at it. I haven't looked back since, and love riding all the time on smooth light quiet operating rig. My one suggestion is re: buying new bikes is, don't piece meal your way there (i.e. frame only upgrade, then something else much later), either commit to it or don't do it at all. If you piece meal the upgrades, you definitely won't get the benefit of performance your expecting.


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## keppler (May 25, 2007)

I have a friend that wanted a new first road bike. I warned her not to try to go too cheap as it would take a lot of effort just to move the bike on a smooth road vs one that was better built.

She picked up a sale priced bike at a dept store (which I told her to steer clear of). I invited her to ride with me on my route. She did 20 minutes and had problems with her knee, got very tired and very discouraged. The bike was heavy, just pushing the pedals took work; the wheels didn't spin too freely either. 

She returned the cheap bike and picked up some other, better, slightly more expensive bike (of some lesser known brand) and we did the route gain. This time she lasted 1 hour and really enjoyed herself. But even that bike was a bit heavy and moving it took some effort.

About a week later we're in a very high end shop that sells some sweet bling bikes. She spotted a better, again more expensive bike. She hefted it and couldn't believe how light it was (it's 20lbs on the road). She took it out for a spin and said 'I have to buy this bike!'

And she did, and we're now doing 3 hour weekend rides, her knee is fine and she totally loves her newer, more expensive bike, with better components, wheels and frame.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*I've raced long enough..*

to simply realize the fact that bike only goes as fast as your legs make it. sorry, but that's the truth. the only differences you're going to find with speed are in wheelsets, training time, tire volumen, and a bit of stiffness. if you want a new bike, buy one. If your old bike is wearing out and you want to replace it, buy one. Just remind yourself, if you fall/wreck/crash your bike, its more expensive to replace. If you're just riding for enjoyment and exercise and the potential for a "grounding" is low, by all means get a great bike if you can afford it. 

now...go buy a super phatt $$ bike and post some pics so I can be jealous!!! I buy mid range bikes due to my racing and crashing potential...I would be devastated to ground a high end CF frame with Campy Record or 10sp DA. ...:cryin:


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

I agree with the comment, high end steel is timeless and a great bike no matter how old. A Merckx high end steel is something that will transcend time. You'll have more riders drooling over your frame than the latest carbon wonder bike that will look old after a couple years.

I have a 1991 Tommasini lugged steel frame and have had modern carbon and aluminum/carbon frames since then, all great in thier own way, but I still love the Tommasini. It gives that spring and twang that the others don't. It's a couple pounds heavier on the scale, but in real world use, it feels light, responsive and cruises well.

Also agree, new high quality wheels will make a huge difference in the ride feel. Go the retro-modern route and put a new group on the classic frame and have the best of both worlds. 

brewster


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

i acually knew a person who worked at McDonald's and he drives Corvette 06 Z series ( $ 70k ) so who say you can't ride a $ 5k bike just for commuter or fun.


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## Kung Fu Felice (Apr 17, 2007)

Comfort = speed. The more comfortable you are because the bike fits you perfectly, the longer you can ride fast which may result in faster times. So the bike is faster more because it is comfortable and less because it is made up of zoot bling components. So for the $$$, better to buy a custom bike from a reputable builder than putting money into exotic materials for an off the shelf fit.

Bike fit is everything. You'd probably spend less on a custom Ti frame by Strong or Kish than a Look 595, and it would fit you better too.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

*Its like wine*

Its sort of like wine. To most people wine is wine with little or no discernable difference between a $10 bottle and a $50 bottle. However to people who really enjoy wine and have taken to the time to understand it, the difference between the two price points are in most cases huge.


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## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

*Wine*

Ok - I like the wine analogy – most $50 bottles are better than most $2 bottles but not all $50 bottles, even from the same manufacture, are worth holding on to and some go bad in a short period of time. Additionally you can not always tell which ones will make it past 5years and simply because it’s old does not make it better there are a lot of old ”wines” from good manufactures made in traditional ways that are simply vinegar today and are in no way better than a nicely made young wine that taste great today. 

In the big picture this is a low risk decision - Buy the nice new one it will likely taste great now and may or may not get better with age. Finally if you like the way it taste you will drink more and yes you will get faster.


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## finman 50 (Mar 5, 2007)

One thing you should consider no matter what you do is improving the fit of the bike. I had a carbon Giant TCR, the LBS spent quite a bit of time fitting me when I bought it. The bike was super fast and felt good. A few months later I had knee problems. After I wrecked on the Giant TCR, I decided to go with a custom made frame from Parlee. I checked it out and by far the best fit system was from a LBS that uses Serrota's computerized fit system. A professional fit is much more advanced than the average bike shop can do. Check out their web site http://www.serotta.com/ . 

While my Custom bike was being built they took the data from the fit and changed my Giant TCR with a new seat post and changed the reach to the handle bars. Those two changes along with Speed Play zero cro-moly pedals eliminated the knee problems. My old bike felt totally different. It was a very big inprovement over the old fit with the same bike. I didn't expect much when my Parlee came in because both are Carbon and about the same weight. Let me tell you the difference was BIG and well worth every penny. The geometry was perfect for me. Those very small changes made a difference. It's an extremely comfortable ride. I get a buzz out of riding the Parlee each time I get on it. I don't know if it "is" faster than my Giant but I can tell you it sure feels faster. I'm really glad I made the change to go all out. Think about it It's a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a Harley.


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## keppler (May 25, 2007)

finman 50 said:


> I checked it out and by far the best fit system was from a LBS that uses Serrota's computerized fit system. A professional fit is much more advanced than the average bike shop can do. Check out their web site http://www.serotta.com/


This is true. I found some great sales at other bike stores but when I asked about their fittings I'd get a 'sure we do those' response, but my gut told me they'd end up fitting a bike to me.

I learned of a store that actually has a fitting technician who uses the Serotta system and I had my fitting there along with buying my entire bike from them. Since day one I've fit perfectly on my bike.


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## Sixty Fiver (Jul 7, 2007)

The engine is the most important thing... 

I was on my ride home today and coming down the street I came up behind and passed a rather fit looking woman on a very nice tri bike... she was going hard and fast and I still passed her like she was parked.

Realistically...she was probably doing 35 kmh and I was spinning out the fixie's 81 gear inches which means I was running in the high 40's.

The bike I was riding was my aforementioned 1962 Peugeot that weighs 23 pounds without factoring in the weight of my well packed paniers.

When she caught up to me at a light she looked at me and the bike and gave me that looks that says... omg...I've just been dusted by an antique riding another antique.

Old bikes really don't get enough love.


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## eddymerckx#1 (Aug 5, 2005)

NO, I got both, on paper (paper racing) yes, in reality NO, go to a race & youll see many times the guys with the trickest bikes& components at the back


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Sure, it's the engine that counts, but sometimes that engine deserves a new set of wheels. Some fuel for the soul. Don't neglect the intangibles.


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## haz a tcr (Sep 29, 2005)

Question to all those people who think weight makes no difference - why do you think climbers are always skinny little guys? When you are climbing, power to weight ratio is what will determine how fast you are. The bike is part of this overall weight. It makes little difference whether you lose 3kg from your body or from your bike, if the power you produce remains the same you WILL be faster. Seems pretty simple logic to me.

Whether you can appreciably feel the difference, or be able to turn it into results, it does make a difference. Cycling is an increasingly scientific sport and those want to succeed need to use every competitive advantage they can get.

Every new bike I have bought has been a major upgrade from the next - Apollo RDZ1000 w/sora to Giant TCR1 w/ultegra to Look 585 Ultra w/record, and they have made me faster, whether in absolute terms of times over a certain course, or more importantly when you are riding in a group, having the acceleration to be able to stay with them when they jump.

To all those who say high end bikes are not as comfortable - the two most important factors determining comfort are geometry and stiffness. It is a given that no matter what level of bike you are riding you will need to be setup properly to find it comfortable, and a lot of people make sacrifices here on modern bikes for aesthetic reasons, particularly going for the low-pro look rather than having the appropriate saddle to bar drop. 

When it comes to stiffness it is important to note in particular with regard to carbon frames that stiffness and weight are not directly proportional - it depends on how the frame is built. You should choose a bike that is best for your needs - you can still get a light, high end bike that has a fair degree of compliance, say a Look 585 which has an excellent balance between comfort, lightweight and stiffness, or on the other hand a light extra stiff and harsh bike like a Canyon F10 if you want a real 'race feel' bike. 

Basically what it comes down to though if you are not in competition is choosing a bike that you will enjoy riding. So if you have a burning desire to get a new bike, just make sure you make the right choices - first of all the geometry has to be correct for you, otherwise forget about it. Then decide what ride qualities you are looking for and do some research - if you can test ride before you buy then thats even better. Finally, make sure you choose appropriate components - higher end groupos will make the ride experience more enjoyable and will usually last longer than cheapies but you may be happy to settle for a mid range group. IMO chorus is really the best groupset out there as far as a comprimise between price, performance and longevity goes.

As long as you make informed choices a high end bike can be absolutely worthwhile.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Mapei said:


> Sure, it's the engine that counts, but sometimes that engine deserves a new set of wheels. Some fuel for the soul. Don't neglect the intangibles.


I'm a Hemi. I guess that is why I ride a Big Leg Emma and a MX Leader. I don't corner well and get bad mileage. Cheap bikes make me knock a little too. Maybe my jets need cleaning, note to self, more fiber.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

This an insightful thread for me as well. I've been on mine since the early 90's and last season the bug bit me and I began considering an update. Unlike past years where I would put significantly more miles under me, I'm tapering back to casual levels. ~100-150 week. 

So when I think of that Time-Ultegra build, it's a nice ride but I felt it was like taking a Corvette to the corner market to pick up a carton of juice...wasted. No doubt it would be enjoyable to have but used, is far from its capabilities. I cannot predict if I would be more motivated to put more miles...a big unknown. 

I'm not flashy and so the enjoyment riding the old things is still amusing. The Vitus for slow meandering days and the tighter handling (though heavy) Atala. Looks like I'll ride others and see if I do get pulled to open the wallet. 

Appreciate the discussion.


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