# Shop refuses to build up Chinese bikes (moved to new thread)



## civdic (May 13, 2009)

I met up at my local "high end" bike shop on Sunday for a chilly winter group ride. I decided to grab an extra tube before we left.

I walked into the shop and noticed a sign posted above the work area which read: We do no longer build up or service Chinese no name bikes/wheels. It didn't read exactly like that but essentially that's what it said.

I spoke to the owner on the ride and he indicated that the shop has built up "too many" bikes that have come back with customer complaints. He said he had a local tri rider came back after a race with a busted up lip and a broken wheel in which he purchased off ebay and they had built up on a DT hubs. He said he was sick of customers complaining that the shop was somehow responsible for poor performing bikes and that the "build up" was somehow the result of the poor performance.

He also said he was tired of the modifications to be made on some of the frames to make cable routing work or the way BB's are out of alignment or how derailleurs don't mount properly without removing frame material.

I'd be interested to know how many other shops or shop owners on RBR don't touch "no name" bikes. My understanding would there could be some good money being made on selling complete groups and building wheels.


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## Schmack (Mar 25, 2009)

I would think the lines they carry and their reps may also give them a hard time. If I was a rep and I came into a shop and saw one of my bikes clearly pirated from China, I would be pissed. There are all sorts of property right and manufacturing issues here. I don't own a shop, but I can't say I blame the guy.

I do know that my shop won't typically work on wal-mart of k-mart bikes for the same reason.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

I can't blame him. Right or wrong there is an implied (although misplaced) responsibility once they work on the bike. If these products consistently demonstrate poor workmanship and/or problems after the build, I can understand him not wanting to take that on.


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## civdic (May 13, 2009)

I would think working on a K-mart or Walmart bike would be OK. I've helped friends tune up their kids bikes that have been purchased at such stores. 

One other issue I didn't mention is that he has a fixed price for building up a bike. I would think this applies to frames bought through his shop although I did see a Sarto that he built up a few weeks ago that wasn't ordered through the shop. He was saying that he knows the average time in which a bike can be built up but says the Chinese bike can take much longer. He says the customer can't understand the extra cost that goes into building an offshore bike.

Funny thing is aren't most bikes offshore?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

civdic said:


> I would think working on a K-mart or Walmart bike would be OK. I've helped friends tune up their kids bikes that have been purchased at such stores.
> 
> One other issue I didn't mention is that he has a fixed price for building up a bike. I would think this applies to frames bought through his shop although I did see a Sarto that he built up a few weeks ago that wasn't ordered through the shop. He was saying that he knows the average time in which a bike can be built up but says the Chinese bike can take much longer. He says the customer can't understand the extra cost that goes into building an offshore bike.
> 
> Funny thing is aren't most bikes offshore?


Most all bikes are...but labels a store carries are less likely to need extra work to fix poor QC. It could also be that the LBS is wanting margin off the bike sale not just the work. Remember, bike shops are in a money loosing business to start with.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Once we touch the bike, we become liable. Do I want my liability insurance premiums to increase (and probably lose a customer) just so I can make $50? There's a lot of sub-standard crap out there, and if I'm not providing that crap, then why should I risk my reputation and money?


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## civdic (May 13, 2009)

Funny...I posted this in the General cycling discussion forum and it's been moved here. 

This should be interesting.


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## kapu902 (Apr 7, 2010)

*Lbs*

It is also like bringing a sandwich into a restaurant and buying a soda so you can use the seat. IMHO


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

civdic said:


> ...
> I walked into the shop and noticed a sign posted above the work area which read: We do no longer build up or service Chinese no name bikes/wheels. It didn't read exactly like that but essentially that's what it said...
> 
> My understanding would there could be some good money being made on selling complete groups and building wheels.


Yea, because people who are buying knock-off frames for $500 are looking to pay LBS prices for brand-name wheels and groups.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Seneb said:


> I simply do not understand the fascination with the Dogma. I think it is one of the worst looking frames ever designed. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but just don't get it.


What is not to understand. The real ones cost a lot, so there are a bunch of people who buy fakes to make others think that they paid that much. It's sort of like a fake Rolex except that people who buy fake Rolexes won't insult your intelligence by telling you a BS story about buying the fake because they liked the way it looks. If it was just about the looks then these guys would have the balls to have "Chinarello" put on the down tube instead of "Pinarello." They are like those fools that you occasionally see driving a Hyundai with the labels pried off and replaced with Mercedes' symbols. Everyone laughs at them when they drive by but the drivers seem to be oblivious to the stupidity of it.


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## civdic (May 13, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Once we touch the bike, we become liable. Do I want my liability insurance premiums to increase (and probably lose a customer) just so I can make $50? There's a lot of sub-standard crap out there, and if I'm not providing that crap, then why should I risk my reputation and money?


I understand the above statement but as a shop owner where do you draw the line? Which frames do you chose to build up and which do you refuse to build or service? 

Is a Kuota frame different than it's carbon Alibaba xxx copy? Does Hongfu or whoever make frames for name brand bike companies? If so how does a bike retailer know the difference?


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

trailrunner68 said:


> What is not to understand. The real ones cost a lot, so there are a bunch of people who buy fakes to make others think that they paid that much. It's sort of like a fake Rolex except that people who buy fake Rolexes won't insult your intelligence by telling you a BS story about buying the fake because they liked the way it looks. If it was just about the looks then these guys would have the balls to have "Chinarello" put on the down tube instead of "Pinarello." They are like those fools that you occasionally see driving a Hyundai with the labels pried off and replaced with Mercedes' symbols. Everyone laughs at them when they drive by but the drivers seem to be oblivious to the stupidity of it.


IMO I don't think people who buy chinarello's miss out on performance compared to the real deal, since performance comes from user - it is really all about the rider. it is a bike, who really cares as long as they make them ride out. and who really cares if you ride a real one?

rolex vs. folex & hyundia vs mercs is a different story since the user has nothing to do with performance.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

civdic said:


> I walked into the shop and noticed a sign posted above the work area which read: We do no longer build up or service Chinese no name bikes/wheels. It didn't read exactly like that but essentially that's what it said.


pix or it didn't happen.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

vladvm said:


> IMO I don't think people who buy chinarello's miss out on performance compared to the real deal, since performance comes from user - it is really all about the rider. it is a bike, who really cares as long as they make them ride out. and who really cares if you ride a real one?


If you nor anyone else should care whether it's real or not then why didn't you have the balls to put Chinarello on the down tube? Don't give us some BS like, "It's not about the bike, it's about the rider." Obviously, to you it was about the bike, otherwise you would not have put a phony label on it.


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## civdic (May 13, 2009)

vladvm said:


> pix or it didn't happen.


I'll take a pic next time I'm in the shop.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

civdic said:


> I understand the above statement but as a shop owner where do you draw the line? Which frames do you chose to build up and which do you refuse to build or service?
> 
> Is a Kuota frame different than it's carbon Alibaba xxx copy? Does Hongfu or whoever make frames for name brand bike companies? If so how does a bike retailer know the difference?



The difference is, a frame or rim with a name on it has a chain of responsibility. Zipp rims are warranted by Zipp in Indianapolis. If their rim breaks and you crash, it's on them, not me. With a HongFuCheapSh*t rim, do you really think they're going to care or do anything about it? They can't even refrain from putting poison in baby formula in China, yet we're supposed to think that a no-name carbon rim maker is going to pay your hospital bills and replace the broken wheel?

Nope. Ain't gonna happen. So, you or your insurance company is going to sue me instead.

Any part from a legitimate company is fine. The company has insurance and a desire to protect its name/reputation. Hong Wheel can/will just change their name and keep cranking out crap if they have too many problems.





vladvm said:


> IMO I don't think people who buy chinarello's miss out on performance compared to the real deal, since performance comes from user - it is really all about the rider. it is a bike, who really cares as long as they make them ride out. and who really cares if you ride a real one?
> 
> rolex vs. folex & hyundia vs mercs is a different story since the user has nothing to do with performance.


If you really think that there is no performance difference between bike frames, then you haven't been riding very long. Performance isn't measured by speed only...


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

civdic said:


> Funny thing is aren't most bikes offshore?


I don't think it's about offshore, per se. It's about a reduced level of QC on products that aren't forced to have that QC by a name brand company, and the lack of manufacturing accountability when a reputable name brand company is out of the equation. If you can't process a claim through a name brand or direct with the factory, who do you go to? Apparently, some people think you can go to the shop that assembled the bike for them.


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> If you really think that there is no performance difference between bike frames, then you haven't been riding very long. Performance isn't measured by speed only...


Yea, Platy is right, it is also measured by opinion, too. And we all know that the more you ride, the bigger... opinion.... you have.

Honestly, you guys can't possibly believe you are receiving the exact same bike for 1/10th of the money, though. We can all point out the visual differences. The layup is also different, almost certainly. What you all have to decide is, is the visual difference and layup difference enough to justify paying 10 times the price for the real thing? If getting something backed by a brand and potentially receiving a better product is enough to convince you to pay 10x the cost, then more power to you. If you cannot justify paying 10x the price, and think the $600 version is close enough, then buy the cheaper one. 

All other points aside, these bikes are NOT the same. They might look similar, might perform similar, but they are NOT THE SAME. Got it? Good. Now Platy has a valid argument, we all agree with him, and we can stop arguing the same point over and over. :thumbsup:


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

trailrunner68 said:


> If you nor anyone else should care whether it's real or not then why didn't you have the balls to put Chinarello on the down tube? Don't give us some BS like, "It's not about the bike, it's about the rider." Obviously, to you it was about the bike, otherwise you would not have put a phony label on it.


no label.


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

Vee said:


> Honestly, you guys can't possibly believe you are receiving the exact same bike for 1/10th of the money, though.


not exactly the same since there are no paints for raw oem's. who cares about the paint.


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

vladvm said:


> not exactly the same since there are no paints for raw oem's. who cares about the paint.


Before paint the frames are still not the same. The first pinarello knock offs had round seatposts. The newest ones are missing the cutout in the downtube that tapers to the shape of the fork. 

Do you honestly think they're the same frame before paint.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Dear Moderators
Thanks for moving this thread about someone's LBS into the Carbon ebay thread.
Just what we wanted, a heap of people turning up discussing a topic that really has little to do with this thread.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

For all you know, they're the ones that don't pass Quality Control to pass on to Pinarello... in which case you're paying hundreds of dollars for a defective product... 

Most people would rather than thousands for one with a warranty, a reputable company to stand behind it, acknowledge and support R&D efforts in making better bikes and rewarding those investing in it... 

... others would rather flash a one finger salute to the concept of intellectual property.


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

One last time. These frames are NOT the same.


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## Seneb (Sep 29, 2009)

MarvinK said:


> Most people would rather than thousands for one with a warranty, a reputable company to stand behind it, acknowledge and support R&D efforts in making better bikes and rewarding those investing in it...


I did just that and the warranty was only two years, so now I have a frame that will cost more to fix than buying a frame from China, so that's what I'm going to do. If it cracks, then f-it. I can buy four frames in two years for less than the one frame with a two year warranty. However, I don't yet trust buying the carbon rims or bars. That kinda freaks me out.

And for the record, I agree that the frames are not the same.


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## kgs499 (Feb 22, 2012)

*Great..*

This thread, *that is for people who are interested in buying chinese carbon fiber frames* and such has been wrecked by the people above who are simply commenting to complain about how they are not as high quality.

If you are not interested in purchasing a chinese carbon fiber frame, are not adding to the information here, and/or asking questions about these frames can I ask exactly why you are here? Because it looks to me that you are just simply trying to belittle someone's perfectly acceptable light weight carbon frame...


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

The sign has nothing to do with Chinese frames specifically...I overheard one of my LBS mechanics telling some lady who brought her kids WalMart bike in and wanting some work done, and asking why there were issues with it, he basically said "it's a cheap Chinese made bike and there is only so much we can do with it." Of course, the next thought likely coming out of his mouth was, just buy one of our $800-1000 Chinese made Treks, Giants, or whatever they have, and all will be good of course!

Right. 

Weird merge by the way mods!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

kgs499 said:


> This thread, *that is for people who are interested in buying chinese carbon fiber frames* and such has been wrecked by the people above who are simply commenting to complain about how they are not as high quality.
> 
> If you are not interested in purchasing a chinese carbon fiber frame, are not adding to the information here, and/or asking questions about these frames can I ask exactly why you are here? Because it looks to me that you are just simply trying to belittle someone's perfectly acceptable light weight carbon frame...


Well Mr. 2-Post-Wonder, that would be because the mods decided to merge a completely different thread with this thread. If you want to get all angsty, do so with the mod who merged the topics.

(perfectly acceptable?! LOL!)


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> Well Mr. 2-Post-Wonder, that would be because the mods decided to merge a completely different thread with this thread. If you want to get all angsty, do so with the mod who merged the topics.


Agreed.
I have no idea why they dumped this in here.
It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> ...
> (perfectly acceptable?! LOL!)


^ this

It's shocking how many people find it perfectly acceptable to openly discuss a group buy of a counterfeit Pinarello frame with full on logos and paint. 

What's not perfectly acceptable about it... aside from the intellectual theft and it being ILLEGAL!?


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## civdic (May 13, 2009)

Yikes! I just wanted to know what other LBS where doing. Can the mods merge it back?


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

zigmeister said:


> The sign has nothing to do with Chinese frames specifically...I overheard one of my LBS mechanics telling some lady who brought her kids WalMart bike in and wanting some work done, and asking why there were issues with it, he basically said "it's a cheap Chinese made bike and there is only so much we can do with it." Of course, the next thought likely coming out of his mouth was, just buy one of our $800-1000 Chinese made Treks, Giants, or whatever they have, and all will be good of course!


One of the challenges when someone brings in their $60 bike from Walmart... is that they're not really ready to spend more money getting it fixed or working... than they spent on the actual bike. Does it make sense to spend $200 on bike that wasn't worth the $60 they spent in the first place? I don't see many bike shops refusing to work on Walmart bikes, but I do think they should warn the customer what it might cost to fix. Most of those customers aren't ready to spend much on repairs...


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## kgs499 (Feb 22, 2012)

I see I must have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about because I have just started posting in this forum. I have been reading it regularly for more than a year (uh oh, probably not long enough).
My point was not that the companies are doing nothing wrong. I personally don't think they should be painting other company's names on their frames as they are quite definitely not the same and it is wrong.
But have any of the people bickering about their low quality ever been on one? My point is that, from everything I have heard from people who have actually purchased these frames, they work perfectly, have no defects, are light, and serve their purpose well while being extremely inexpensive.

I did not notice the merge so for that I am sorry.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

kgs499 said:


> ...
> My point was not that the companies are doing nothing wrong. I personally don't think they should be painting other company's names on their frames as they are quite definitely not the same and it is wrong...


I'll agree with you that these are different. I think the no-name or unheard-of brands have a place--but RBR should seriously be banning posts of counterfeit goods (especially things like group buys). It's not about the thought police... it's illegal.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

MarvinK said:


> I'll agree with you that these are different. I think the no-name or unheard-of brands have a place--but RBR should seriously be banning posts of counterfeit goods (especially things like group buys). It's not about the thought police... it's illegal.


Right after that they should ban talking about bikes with fake "Made In Italy" stickers on them.

Let the people buy their fake Pinarellos. It will be easy to know who the real toolbags are.


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## flyjoe (Mar 17, 2008)

jebus, this crap again?

we get it, you dont like it. you have made that very clear. unfortumately not all of us share that conviction. let it go now please.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Hmmmm...
Didn't take long for this thread to turn to crap.....
I almost wish someone would ask about steerer spacers at this point....


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## ivavi (Feb 23, 2012)

MarvinK and Andresmuro: I don't do intellectual property law and haven't done any research on this, but I am an attorney and I don't know of any law that would make it illegal to buy a Chinese frame that's designed to look like a name-brand bicycle, even if they went so far as to print the name-brand logo on it (which most Chinese frames do not). 

My guess is that *selling* a knock off with the same logo probably would violate some kind of federal import law, and could arguably be a form of wire-fraud, but I'm not so sure about the buyers. And you would definitely need the same logo to be criminally (as opposed to civilly) liable, as a seller. The fact that it looks like the name brand would not be enough. 

So are you talking about Federal, State, International, or Chinese law? Do you have a specific statute that you're citing to, or does it just kind of feel illegal to you? Feelings can sometimes be misleading and are certainly not authoritative enough to justify banning a discussion. It's kind of like the phrase "pics or it didn't happen." In the legal profession, the mantra is "it's good to be right, but better to cite."


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## andresmuro (Dec 11, 2007)

ivavi said:


> MarvinK and Andresmuro: I don't do intellectual property law and haven't done any research on this, but I am an attorney and I don't know of any law that would make it illegal to buy a Chinese frame that's designed to look like a name-brand bicycle, even if they went so far as to print the name-brand logo on it (which most Chinese frames do not).
> 
> My guess is that *selling* a knock off with the same logo probably would violate some kind of federal import law, and could arguably be a form of wire-fraud, but I'm not so sure about the buyers. And you would definitely need the same logo to be criminally (as opposed to civilly) liable, as a seller. The fact that it looks like the name brand would not be enough.
> 
> So are you talking about Federal, State, International, or Chinese law? Do you have a specific statute that you're citing to, or does it just kind of feel illegal to you? Feelings can sometimes be misleading and are certainly not authoritative enough to justify banning a discussion. It's kind of like the phrase "pics or it didn't happen." In the legal profession, the mantra is "it's good to be right, but better to cite."


Im not the one who *****es about fake frames. It doesn't bother me and don't know of any laws for or against this. I have a chinese ti frame and a carbon one. Former is ti color and latter is black. I don't put anything on them but don't care if someone else wants to write name brands all over them. If it makes them happy, more power to them.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

This is its own thread now per request- let's try and keep this civil. I know- Internet = Serious Business, but Uter still believes in you!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

It is illegal to purchase counterfeit goods in Italy (fine) and France (fine+jail time). Otherwise, it is illegal to sell counterfeit goods in all countries (supposedly.) So for all of those ebayers selling "OEM" pinarellos, you're committing a crime.



> As to counterfeits, if you buy them for personal use, “almost everywhere in the world, it’s illegal to sell them but legal to buy them,” said Susan Scafidi, a professor at the Fashion Law Institute at Fordham University and an academic director there.
> 
> “The law only apples to the supply side and not the demand side.” But, she said, there are two major places where buying counterfeit goods is illegal: France and Italy. In France, she said, you can face a steep fine and jail term for buying counterfeit goods, while in Italy, she said, you can be fined. In addition, she said, Customs in the United States will allow travelers to bring one counterfeit good per category. Bringing more than that could mean you plan to sell them, and officers may confiscate and charge fees for them.


The Legality of Buying Knockoffs - NYTimes.com


Does that mean it's right to buy a counterfeit just because you can? Absolutely not. Is it right to pay the asking price to enter the market for a Dogma 2 frame? To pay for the R&D, the marketing, the warranty etc etc? Yep. To do otherwise is to be the epitome of a social climbing fred.

Don't be that guy.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

ivavi said:


> So are you talking about Federal, State, International, or Chinese law? Do you have a specific statute that you're citing to, or does it just kind of feel illegal to you? ...


I didn't say whether it was buying or selling that was illegal--but making and selling counterfeit frames is illegal by federal law (not just in the US--but in most countries). I don't know how much of the Chinese frame threads you've paid attention to, but every year they get more and more bold about posting information about how to buy frames that have been painting too look just like a Pinarello or Cervelo frame. I think since selling those types of copies is illegal in most countries, RBR should ban that discussion.

Fake and Counterfeit Goods Are No Bargain - Lawyers.com

ICC - The world business organization

Counterfeit Goods | LegalMatch Law Library


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

vladvm said:


> not exactly the same since there are no paints for raw oem's. who cares about the paint.


You are probably the only one on here who still believes their fake Pinarello is actually an OEM frame.

I don't blame shops one bit for refusing to work on fakes and Chinese no-name frames. There is little, if any, evidence of quality control there. Why take the risk, if you're a shop?


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

If a shop is going to draw the line at a new bike that is to spec but of mysterious origin, then the shop shouldn't work on used frames or wheels, either. I've built three identical HongFu somethings, and they were of reasonable quality. 

I'm sure there are bikes that aren't, but there is only so much the shop can be held responsible for - bike shops are "bicycle mechanic experts", as much as anyone is. So if the fork fails, and the correct tools were used by trained people, then it isn't the shop's fault until someone proves differently. And if the fork couldn't be installed correctly because the frame is out of spec, then the installation ends right there.

Despite all the talk about liability, hardly anything ever happens that involves the shop's insurance, despite thousands of bikes serviced year after year.


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## mushroomking (Sep 26, 2008)

I've contemplated purchasing those 'chinese' carbon frames many times but just cant bring myself to do so. Its way to easy for them to sell a sub-par product that 'looks good' but breaks after a couple rides and they say it was your fat a** that broke it.

You can make the argument that you can buy 4 chinese carbon frames for every 1 name brand frame but no one ever considers the hassles of waiting a month for each of those frames to be shipped to you.

My lbs has no problem working on them but if there is a hint of poor QC they will drop work and give it back to you. I'm not 100% on what he would do with carbon rims, I would assume the same way an automotive shop would treat you if you brought your own parts. Charge you for labor the first time, then charge you labor the second time after you buy another part to replace the first cheapo.

Refusing to work on a bike is something they reserve the right to do whether they feel its unsafe or if they wouldn't be able to stand behind the finished product. My lbs will work on wal-mart bikes but they require an upfront deposit of I believe 50% of the repair cost?


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## tbb001 (Oct 1, 2007)

Seneb said:


> I did just that and the warranty was only two years, so now I have a frame that will cost more to fix than buying a frame from China, so that's what I'm going to do.


There's a reputable bike company that offers only a 2yr warranty? :blush2:


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## gpcyclist25 (Mar 22, 2011)

I thought I'd give my overall perspective, as an owner of a chinese frame, the ubiquitous FM015.

Last year I was thinking about putting together a new bike, both as its own reason and for the experience, when I came upon these forums, purely out of happenstance. It also happened to be the case that I was hit by a car on my previous bike, on of all days, 9/11 about a year and a half ago (makes it easy to remember). I was fine, scrapes and bruises.

While the damage to the bike (a 2003 Specialized Allez) was mild - the non-driveside crank took all of the impact while I rolled over the hood and onto the ground, it did give me some pause in terms of thinking about how much of the bike's value was wrapped up in the frame, especially when you consider that carbon isn't exactly famous for its impact resistance, at least in the face of a two-ton automobile. Put another way, in financial terms, there wasn't a lot of diversification of risk when you deconstructed the value of a bike, at least in a "high-end" bike, with the frame comprising possibly half or more of the overall value. And since this will probably be written off in an accident, to me it seemed like an unacceptable level of risk, notwithstanding all the other bad stuff that happens if you're hit by a car.

So I ordered the FM015, outfitted it with SRAM Force and Red levers, while also having a handbuilt wheelset built by an active RBR poster. While waiting, I also ordered from Hongfu a pair of 50mm tubular rims, Bitex hubs from Brandon, and had a local shop build them up with Sapim CX-Rays that I purchased from him, which I think was a good piece of business for him. Both sets of wheels were $600-700 all-in and both have been terrific for what they are - one set of aluminum training wheels built around WI hubs, and the other a set of "event" wheels for centuries, etc. And the latter have performed well, with no illusions of them having the most "engineered" aerodynamics. They are what they are, and I don't overwork them or ride them for training.

What's my view of it all? I like the frame. That said, I'm 140-150 lbs, so I'm not the hardest on equipment. I also spent a decent bit on wheels, so it may be hard to disentangle my views of the frame from what its riding on. That said, the frame was pretty easy to build up, no defects or issues, and has ridden well for me. 

Are the frame internals as well-made as something from Specialized? I have no idea. I doubt it, but to a large extent its not relevant to me. I don't assume that the frame has the most optimized layout or compaction and its clearly not designed for weightweenies (which probably speaks well in terms of durability). The question is, would I be able to tell if it was? I don't know. And for the price, I can't say I care. Do I think it's going blow up or sheer off a seat-stay while I'm riding? I think that's extremely unlikely. It's just not. There may be magic in building a high-end frame, but building a frame that fulfills basic functionality and maybe more isn't rocket science. We're not talking about the latest passenger jet here.

I rode the bike at a century ride last year and a mechanic noted, without ambiguity, that the frame was made by whoever makes Fuji. In my case, it was Dengfu, so I have no idea whether that's true or not. What I do know is that the series of articles about global sourcing published on that Australian site mentioned Dengfu and Hongfu as OEM producers, without any of the reservations you might expect if discussing a fly-by-night operation, as some have accused them of being. My guess is they're more legit than people want to admit.

As for the Chinarellos, I don't really get it. The FM015 and a few others are open-mould frames. Knocking off a Pinarello just seems sort of desperate to me. If you're going to ride a factory-direct frame, you might as well let it be known its a factory-direct frame. If somebody has a problem with it, you can always use your legs to have the last word. But if you ride a knockoff, you're already conceding a certain insecurity, in my mind.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

PaxRomana said:


> You are probably the only one on here who still believes their fake Pinarello is actually an OEM frame.
> 
> I don't blame shops one bit for refusing to work on fakes and Chinese no-name frames. There is little, if any, evidence of quality control there. Why take the risk, if you're a shop?


In teh InterWebs, one must paint with as bold a stroke as possible. It is amazing that the term "Chinese carbon frame maker" can be so universal, as it covers everything from OEM and ODM subcontractors to many European and American brands, in addition to manufacturers of counterfeit and knockoff frames. Which, by the way, "counterfeit" and "knockoff"/"copycat" are two different things. 

Maybe it is time to remind ourselves that "American steel artisan frame builder" can apply to Vanilla and Strong as much as it does to Desperado?


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

I would never understand why people buy fake frames, unless they want to pretend they are riding the real thing or just too cheap to save up their money. There are a lot of amazing bike brands out there making frames and bikes at every price range. So, if you are saying, well I'm not rich and I don't got the money, which is alright, then go buy an authentic bike at your bike range.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

I think most everyone here recognizes the difference between a Chinese-made (real) Pinarello, a no name knockoff (copy cat) without any logos, and a Chinarello w/Pinarello logos and style. I think very few of us would disagree with the basics of all three:

1. Pinarellos are fine--but two years is sort of a ridiculous warranty. Seems like buyers could do better with just about any other known brand.

2. Knockoffs may (or may not) be decent quality, but there's little recourse against or accountability by the seller--so it is a risk taken by the buyer of the very cheap product.

3. Making counterfeit frames is illegal and buying them is unethical and supporting criminal activity.

Most of the discussion about the shops refusing service is centered around #2. Shops do not want to take on any responsibility or liability that the knockoff maker or the buyer is trying to push off (consciously or not) onto the shop that focuses on reputable or at least known brands.


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

zigmeister said:


> The sign has nothing to do with Chinese frames specifically...I overheard one of my LBS mechanics telling some lady who brought her kids WalMart bike in and wanting some work done, and asking why there were issues with it, he basically said "it's a cheap Chinese made bike and there is only so much we can do with it." Of course, the next thought likely coming out of his mouth was, just buy one of our $800-1000 Chinese made Treks, Giants, or whatever they have, and all will be good of course!
> 
> Right.
> 
> Weird merge by the way mods!


Bikes Made in Taiwan and bikes Made in China are totally different!!

I would buy any bike or frame Made in Taiwan, but I wouldn't touch a bike Made in China.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

AnthonyL88 said:


> I would never understand why people buy fake frames, unless they want to pretend they are riding the real thing or just too cheap to save up their money. There are a lot of amazing bike brands out there making frames and bikes at every price range. So, if you are saying, well I'm not rich and I don't got the money, which is alright, then go buy an authentic bike at your bike range.


It's not about pretending that they are riding the real thing. It's about wanting other people to think they are. It is the ultimate poser bike.

It don't see why bike shops don't draw up a release of liability statement that clearly spells out the possible issues with a no-name frame with questionable QC. Have the customer sign it and then charge extra for building it up. 

Although I do think it is pretty lame for people to buy a no-name frame and not build it up themselves. If you are going to do-it yourself frame importing then you should be able to put the freaking thing together.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

AnthonyL88 said:


> Bikes Made in Taiwan and bikes Made in China are totally different!!
> 
> I would buy any bike or frame Made in Taiwan, but I wouldn't touch a bike Made in China.


There goes Cervelo.


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

I agree with Kontact about being sued and the liability of the shop.

But also remember the OP said his local *High End* shop. The owner may not want copycat frames in his shop. Part of being a good high end shop is protecting your identity as a high end shop, working on copycat frames does not support that. Posting a notice about not working on no name frames makes a statement about who you are and what you stand for, that supports the high end shop identity. Is it going to piss some people off? Yes, but they were the ones buying copycat frames in the first place.

The average shop can put a bike together no need to go to a high end shop.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

QuattroCreep said:


> I agree with Kontact about being sued and the liability of the shop.
> 
> But also remember the OP said his local *High End* shop. The owner may not want copycat frames in his shop. Part of being a good high end shop is protecting your identity as a high end shop, working on copycat frames does not support that. Posting a notice about not working on no name frames makes a statement about who you are and what you stand for, that supports the high end shop identity. Is it going to piss some people off? Yes, but they were the ones buying copycat frames in the first place.
> 
> The average shop can put a bike together no need to go to a high end shop.


Very few no-name carbon frame buyers are like the tards in the "Chinese carbon" thread trying to buy a fake Pinarello. Most don't put any paint or decals on their frames. There is no way to mistake them for something else. 

There are also a lot of people who are building no-name frames with top level components. The frame has become a commodity. I think this trend wil only get stronger. In search of lowest possible labor costs, the big bike companies have shot themselves in the foot.


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## loubnc (May 8, 2008)

MarvinK said:


> 1. Pinarellos are fine--but two years is sort of a ridiculous warranty.


It makes you wonder how much faith they have in their own "real" (read: non-Italian) made frames.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Once we touch the bike, we become liable. Do I want my liability insurance premiums to increase (and probably lose a customer) just so I can make $50? There's a lot of sub-standard crap out there, and if I'm not providing that crap, then why should I risk my reputation and money?





PlatyPius said:


> The difference is, a frame or rim with a name on it has a chain of responsibility. Zipp rims are warranted by Zipp in Indianapolis. If their rim breaks and you crash, it's on them, not me. With a HongFuCheapSh*t rim, do you really think they're going to care or do anything about it? They can't even refrain from putting poison in baby formula in China, yet we're supposed to think that a no-name carbon rim maker is going to pay your hospital bills and replace the broken wheel?
> 
> Nope. Ain't gonna happen. So, you or your insurance company is going to sue me instead.
> 
> ...



I tried to rep you, dang-it  :lol: . 

I guess I have to spread it around a little more......



At any rate; good points there  .


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> Very few no-name carbon frame buyers are like the tards in the "Chinese carbon" thread trying to buy a fake Pinarello. Most don't put any paint or decals on their frames. There is no way to mistake them for something else.
> 
> There are also a lot of people who are building no-name frames with top level components. The frame has become a commodity. I think this trend wil only get stronger. In search of lowest possible labor costs, the big bike companies have shot themselves in the foot.


This being the internet I assume you have the research to back those statements up. Also please define a lot, is there a % number attached to it or is it just more then very few.

How many guys with China direct frames bought their top end groups at the local shop? I am willing to bet very few.



loubnc said:


> It makes you wonder how much faith they have in their own "real" (read: non-Italian) made frames.


Why. A warranty covers defects in workmanship or manufacturing. It does not cover poor care or handling, and defiantly does not cover a crash. 2 years of riding can be 20k miles+ for some riders. Seems fair to me. 

How many frames have you ridden for more then 2 years, have a failure you can honestly say was due to defects in workmanship or manufacturing?

When it comes to crashed or broken frames my experience a 2 year warranty is the same as the ones with a lifetime warranty, they are more then happy to sell you a new frame at a discount.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

tbb001 said:


> There's a reputable bike company that offers only a 2yr warranty? :blush2:


Pinarello and Colnago. It's amazing that people dish out six grand for a frame with a worst-in-class warranty.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

AnthonyL88 said:


> Bikes Made in Taiwan and bikes Made in China are totally different!!


Why are they different?


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

Pinarello actually gives a 3 years warranty on the frame, you just got to register the frame within 10 days after you buy it.

It's 2 years only if you didn't register the frame within 10 days.

Cicli Pinarello guarantees its frames, if purchased from authorized Pinarello dealers, to be free from manufacturing
or material defects for:
- three years from the date of retail purchase if you register the frame, within ten days from purchase,
on the www.pinarello.com website;
- two years if you do not register the frame within ten days after retail purchase.


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

PaxRomana said:


> Pinarello and Colnago. It's amazing that people dish out six grand for a frame with a worst-in-class warranty.


I don't get this thinking. If I ride a bike for 10 years and a tube cracks I would find it very hard to blame on the manufacture. Even after 2 years how many pot holes, rail road crossings, bunny hops, road joints/gaps, rock chips, in and out of car, did that frame see. 2 years worth of riding would expose something that came from the factory wrong. It is not like there is an epidemic of Colnagos and Pinarellos exploding after 2 years.

We have heard cases here on RBR where lifetime frame warranties have not been honored. Depends on how the Co. defines a lifetime. What if they feel the service life of their frame is 5 years. Warranty is for the lifetime of the frame not yours. What happens when a frame gets sent in for lifetime warranty and owner gets told it is due to an impact not manufacturing defect. Chances are it was, because frames get hit with things all the time. But we will see a post on how the lifetime warranty was not honored and the owner is pissed.


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

Wilier - 5 Years
Colnago - 2 Years
Pinarello - 3 Years (Only 2 Yrs if you didn't register the bike within 10 days)
Specialized - Limited Lifetime
Cervelo - Limited Lifetime
Cannondale - Lifetime of the Original owner
Bianchi - 5 Years.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

AnthonyL88 said:


> Wilier - 5 Years
> Colnago - 2 Years
> Pinarello - 3 Years (Only 2 Yrs if you didn't register the bike within 10 days)
> Specialized - Limited Lifetime
> ...


Here's MCipollini's:




> *LIMITED WARRANTY
> 
> FOREWORD: Product Life Cycle and Designated Use*
> 
> ...


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

QuattroCreep said:


> This being the internet I assume you have the research to back those statements up. Also please define a lot, is there a % number attached to it or is it just more then very few.


Yeah, everyone posting on the Internet should have to do a formal research study and submit it to you for peer review before posting their observations.

On this site's no-name carbon thread and on the similar info posted on other sites, the number of bikes with phony big name labels are a small percentage. Deal with it.



QuattroCreep said:


> How many guys with China direct frames bought their top end groups at the local shop? I am willing to bet very few.


So what? The people who buy components for building any bare frame, name or no-name, rarely purchase from shops because the cost is so much higher than what you can get online from the UK. If a shop can charge someone a couple of hundred for building a frame up then that is a two hundred in extra revenue with no cost of carrying inventory.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

AnthonyL88 said:


> Wilier - 5 Years
> Colnago - 2 Years
> Pinarello - 3 Years (Only 2 Yrs if you didn't register the bike within 10 days)
> Specialized - Limited Lifetime
> ...


(note: all bicycle manufacturers have 'limited' warranties, and most are only for the original owner)

Raleigh - Lifetime
Trek - Lifetime
Giant - Lifetime
Felt - Lifetime
Fuji - Lifetime
Litespeed - Lifetime
Seven - Lifetime
Moots - Lifetime
Orbea - Lifetime
Merckx - Lifetime
Look - 5 years
Scott - 5 years
BMC - 5 years (3 if not registered within 30 days)

I agree, it's unlikely you'll run into issues after the first year or two, but it still seems odd that some high-end companies don't even try to compete on warranty. In my experience, your relationship with your shop--and your shop's relationship with the manufacturer--are more important than the actual number of years. If you didn't crash your frame and your shop believes it, and then the manufacturer believes the shop... things are going to go a lot smoother.

In any case, two years is pathetic.


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## andresmuro (Dec 11, 2007)

civdic said:


> I met up at my local "high end" bike shop on Sunday for a chilly winter group ride. I decided to grab an extra tube before we left.
> 
> I walked into the shop and noticed a sign posted above the work area which read: We do no longer build up or service Chinese no name bikes/wheels. It didn't read exactly like that but essentially that's what it said.
> 
> ...


That may be so, but. there are over 10,000 posts in this group about people who have dealt with Chinese frames. Most of the posts indicate that the frames have lasted a long time and that they work really well and do not disintegrate. People have been posting here for several years about this. 

the ones who complain about poor Chinese quality, etc are people who never tried the frames. You can check out the pinarello, trek cerevelo forums to see if they have the same number of positive posts about those frames. Also, the chinese companies sell thousands of frames on ebay and they have very high ratings, and you don't see many people posting here that they got a chinese frame from ebay and that they got treated poorly by these companies. Complains are always by a third person such as, "I have a friend who got a chinese frame and he almost died when it exploded and release poisonous gas". He contacted the seller who replied that he was sending additional poison to finish him off". 

One of my friends owns a bike shop. He started to sell chinese framesets about 4 years ago. He sells them for about $700 to $900. He builds the bikes and gives 3 years instead of 2 year warranty since the frame alone costs him 2 to 300. He figures, the extra year warranty is worth the risk. So far, no frames have exploded. 

The other bike shops do maintenace on chinese bikes regularly. An overhaul generates $100 per bike and technically, adjusting gears, shifters, breaks, cables bottom brackets, handlebars, etc, does not make the bike shop liable for the frame exploding. nor does building a bike. 

Regarding the shop onwer who built a wheelset that broke indicates poor building technique, poor judgement on the builder about weight and spoke count, or poor judgement by the owner about what he wanted. The weak link of a wheel is in the spokes, not in the rim.


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> On this site's no-name carbon thread and on the similar info posted on other sites, the number of bikes with phony big name labels are a small percentage. Deal with it.


I was actually referring to the fact "There are a lot of people who are building no-name frames with top level components". I was being a bit of a smart a$$ with my comments because I found it hard to believe a large number of people were skimping on their frames then buying the newest high end group for it. I will admit to have never going in to the carbon bike frame threads before, but I just poked through the version 6 thread. I saw a couple of bikes with red but it was far from a bling fest. Lots more talk about building with spare parts, or moving things off a current frame, and piecing mixed level groups together going on. Seems to be about the same as every other bike frame thread. Deal with it

Back to the OP question. If your not buying a frame or a group from this shop it is their right to refuse your business for what ever reason they have.(as long as it is a shop policy and not discrimination) Again this might piss some people off but they were not the shops customers in the first place.


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## andresmuro (Dec 11, 2007)

MarvinK said:


> I think most everyone here recognizes the difference between a Chinese-made (real) Pinarello, a no name knockoff (copy cat) without any logos, and a Chinarello w/Pinarello logos and style. I think very few of us would disagree with the basics of all three:
> 
> 1. Pinarellos are fine--but two years is sort of a ridiculous warranty. Seems like buyers could do better with just about any other known brand.
> 
> ...


no liability involved in building a bike from an unkown manufacturer, nor is the customer passing any liability to the shop. The only liability is in the shop's wrenching and it would be hard to prove that a shop did something wrong mechanically. Do you know of any bike shop that may have gotten sued because a bicycle broke?


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

andresmuro said:


> Regarding the shop onwer who built a wheelset that broke indicates poor building technique, poor judgement on the builder about weight and spoke count, or poor judgement by the owner about what he wanted. The weak link of a wheel is in the spokes, not in the rim.


^^^ This is exactly the attitude that sums up why some shops don't want to deal with it. I don't know the situation, it could have been the parts or it could have been the builder. The shop is going to blame the shoddy parts. The buyer is going to blame the shop. 

Sure, you might make $20, $50, $100 or more off the bike--but you may also end up having some guy go postal thinking you need to buy him a new shoddy carbon rim or ebay hub... and then going around *****ing to everyone that shop breaks stuff and doesn't know what they're doing. Frankly, those customers often bring in less than what they cost to deal with... whether they are legally liable for their broken parts or not.

If you're guying to buy no-name crap straight from China (or eBay), you ought to also plan to be competent with a wrench... or you've got an uphill struggle and bias from a lot of shops (and riders, for that matter).


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## andresmuro (Dec 11, 2007)

MarvinK said:


> ^^^ This is exactly the attitude that sums up why some shops don't want to deal with it. I don't know the situation, it could have been the parts or it could have been the builder. The shop is going to blame the shoddy parts. The buyer is going to blame the shop.
> 
> Sure, you might make $20, $50, $100 or more off the bike--but you may also end up having some guy go postal thinking you need to buy him a new shoddy carbon rim or ebay hub... and then going around *****ing to everyone that shop breaks stuff and doesn't know what they're doing. Frankly, those customers often bring in less than what they cost to deal with... whether they are legally liable for their broken parts or not.
> 
> If you're guying to buy no-name crap straight from China (or eBay), you ought to also plan to be competent with a wrench... or you've got an uphill struggle and bias from a lot of shops (and riders, for that matter).


Most shops actually have no problems building stuff from china. The evidence suggests that it is not crap. At least the thousands of people participating the the discussions here don't support the idea that the chinese stuff is crap. Anyways, if a shop doesn't want to build chinese stuff, more power to them. But, it is the exception. Just curious, what is the name of the shop that you are referring? where is it located?


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

andresmuro said:


> Do you know of any bike shop that may have gotten sued because a bicycle broke?


It takes very little to actually attempt to sue--which costs money to defend. Even without a lawsuit, you've still got the problem I described earlier about the knockoff-buying-tool that bad-mouths the bike shop. And, yes... of course there have been many lawsuits related to bicycle failures.

Did you even try to Google this? You should have no problem finding examples...

But here's one:
Bike shop ordered to pay $514,000 to injured rider

And then a law firm offering to help you sue for pretty much anything bad that could have happened related to biking:
Bicycle Accident Lawyers Frequently Asked Questions Info


It's probably unrealistic to reason with someone who is already naive enough to think buying copycat bike direct from China isn't hurting anyone... or thinks that those same people are actually going to buy a retail groupset from a local bike shop... or that shops are actually losing any significant amount of money (or that there are any drawbacks) by avoiding those users. The problem is, reasoning with those people won't be any easier when their crappy frame breaks and they can't get any support from place in China (or on eBay)... and they come back to the shop to lay blame or gain support.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

MarvinK said:


> It takes very little to actually attempt to sue--which costs money to defend. Even without a lawsuit, you've still got the problem I described earlier about the knockoff-buying-tool that bad-mouths the bike shop. And, yes... of course there have been many lawsuits related to bicycle failures.
> 
> Did you even try to Google this? You should have no problem finding examples...
> 
> ...


Yeah, lawsuits or at least the threat of a lawsuit is used quite frequently in bike land. Sometimes it's just about extortion. Actually, it's almost always about extortion.

You know those stupid stickers we have to leave on your frame? You can thank some sub-moronic loser who rode his shiny new Raleigh at night several years ago. He crashed or was hit by a car or something...don't remember. Anyway, he sued Raleigh because his reflectors weren't magic reflectors that actually produced their own light. That's why reflectors are required and those stickers telling you that night is dark and reflectors don't make light are required on all bikes now.

People will sue for anything, and have.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> In search of lowest possible labor costs, the whole western capitalist system have shot themselves in the foot.


Fixed


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Once we touch the bike, we become liable. Do I want my liability insurance premiums to increase (and probably lose a customer) just so I can make $50? There's a lot of sub-standard crap out there, and if I'm not providing that crap, then why should I risk my reputation and money?


Platy, you make a valid point here. 

Have you ever been sued by a cyclist for negligent assembly or maintenance procedures?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

flatsix911 said:


> Platy, you make a valid point here.
> 
> Have you ever been sued by a cyclist for negligent assembly or maintenance procedures?


I have never been sued, no. One bike shop I worked for was sued because the bike literature said that the bike came with an Ultegra rear derailleur but it arrived from the manufacturer with a 105, though... (mid-season part downgrade to avoid raising the price)


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Fixed



:lol:


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

PlatyPius said:


> I have never been sued, no. One bike shop I worked for was sued because the bike literature said that the bike came with an Ultegra rear derailleur but it arrived from the manufacturer with a 105, though... (mid-season part downgrade to avoid raising the price)


Has to be more to that story. Nobody would choose hiring a defense lawyer over buying a derailleur to quiet down a customer. Plus, the customer accepted the product, don't even know how they had a leg to stand on in court.

If someone tries to sue you and loses, aren't they on the hook for your legal expenses? 

And $500k for a broken arm? Damn. That's enough to put most shops under and their owners on the street.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

davidka said:


> And $500k for a broken arm? Damn. That's enough to put most shops under and their owners on the street.


If you're trying to suggest the legal system is broken, I don' think you'll find many willing to argue.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

QuattroCreep said:


> This being the internet I assume you have the research to back those statements up. Also please define a lot, is there a % number attached to it or is it just more then very few.
> 
> How many guys with China direct frames bought their top end groups at the local shop? I am willing to bet very few.
> 
> ...


I really don't understand what you're on about. There definitely is a trend where the general public has become so convinced by Trek, Specialized and Cervelo that Chinese manufacturing is so good that they might as well buy anything from China. It's the logical progression of a trend that goes back to the '80s with Giant made bikes.

Also, there is no reason to assume that a bike frame, especially a carbon frame with no fatigue limit, should ever wear out. Especially after only 3 years. So if a four year old Colnago fails, you bet that it is due to a defect in design or workmanship. Why else would it break from normal riding?

It is very common in the bike industry to warranty bikes that are 5, 10 even 20 years old. I'm sure Trek has occasion to regret the lifetime warranties on the 2500 series road, mtb and hybrid bikes as their epoxy/aluminum bonds age. Composite airplanes and bathtubs are expected to last for decades - how is a bike frame different?


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Kontact said:


> I really don't understand what you're on about. There definitely is a trend where the general public has become so convinced by Trek, Specialized and Cervelo that Chinese manufacturing is so good that they might as well buy anything from China. It's the logical progression of a trend that goes back to the '80s with Giant made bikes.


I think the no-name frames have had an effect and the effect will get larger. The big bike companies convinced people that carbon fiber was this super high tech material that deserved a huge price premium. The companies have enjoyed a fantastic situation where prices went through the roof while manufacturing costs fell through the floor. No-name frames have exposed people to the true cost of manufacturing, and it makes people feel that they are being ripped off by the big bike companies. To make things worse, prices at the major companies have become stupid high. I can call Moots, or better yet Kent Eriksen, and order a custom frame made in the U.S. by skilled labor for less money than many stock frames popped out of a mold in China. That does not make sense.

It is not so much that the no-name stuff is as good as Trekalized. It's whether the difference is worth the huge price markup. I tend to think that frames around the 1100 gram point have a decent margin of safety built in, and if the geometry is good then they will ride okay.

If people are worried about warranties with no-names then they can buy from a number of middlemen that justify their existence by selling no-names with a warranty. Buy from Planet-X, Pedal Force, etc.


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## andresmuro (Dec 11, 2007)

MarvinK said:


> It takes very little to actually attempt to sue--which costs money to defend. Even without a lawsuit, you've still got the problem I described earlier about the knockoff-buying-tool that bad-mouths the bike shop. And, yes... of course there have been many lawsuits related to bicycle failures.
> 
> Did you even try to Google this? You should have no problem finding examples...
> 
> ...


I actually, don't give a hoot about Pinarello losing money to the Chinese knock off industry. I think that having both is good, and benefits the public overall. Here is my take:

There are people who think that an original pinarello worth $15,000 is a much better bike than a chinese made no-name frame. While there is no scientific evidence to prove that, owners of pinarello's are happy and believe that they get much better quality, science, support, prestige etc. 

There are people who think that a $400 chinese no name frame is equal to a pinarello and that they are getting an awesome bargain. While there is no evidence of this ether, people are happy because they got what they think is an awesome bike. 

Ultimately, more people are happy for whatever reasons and I say more power to them. I think that having the choice makes life better. I have friends who ride pinarello's and treks and cannondales, etc are they are happy with their bikes and can afford them. I do not try to convince them that they got ripped off. I also have friends that ride no name carbon frames and they are happy with them, and that is what they can afford. I don't try to convince them that they got screwed either. 

What bothers me, is when someone shows up to a discussion w/o any scientific evidence that something is or isn't good and tries to persuade everyone in that group that they got crap and they should go with pinarello. 

I don't go to the pinarello thread and tell everyone that they got screwed and that they should buy chinese. 

Neither do I go to the chinese thread to tell people that they are getting screwed and should buy pinarellos. 

The chinese thread if for people who have an interest in chinese frames, to discuss their experiences with these chinese frames. It is usually a happy place, until someone who thinks that has more knowledge and higher ethical standards shows up to persuade everyone about the error of their ways. Ultimately you will not convince people in the chinese thread that they should see the world through your eyes.


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## MojoHamuki (Feb 20, 2009)

People get so confused over warranties. All a warranty says is if there is a defect in the frame. So if you crash or crack your frame riding over a pothole good luck having it over even by a 100 year warranty unless the company feels the issue came about from poor design, or manufacturing


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

andresmuro said:


> ...until someone who thinks that has more knowledge and higher ethical standards shows up to persuade everyone about the error of their ways. Ultimately you will not convince people in the chinese thread that they should see the world through your eyes.


Most of the time (like in this case) we end up in those threads because of another thread that got merged into it. Sure, we're disgusted when we see what's already going on in there. With each version of the Chinese thread, the counterfeit goods become more prominent. People in that thread can pretend they have high ethical standards, yet they continue to (at a minimum) silently sit by and let this illegal practice clog up a thread that used to simply be full of cheapskates. Right now the most common discussion is around a group buy for counterfeit frames (going as far as posting up pictures of the legitimate frames to decide which design to steal).

They may not change their mind--but it's not because of their 'high ethical standards.'


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## robc in wi (Sep 8, 2011)

If you take the time to read through the 240 pages of the Chinese Carbon vers 5 thread and check out the Chinese Carbon picture thread you will see that the vast majority of posters are buying fm015, fm028, and lately the fm098 frames and few others. Most of them are 3k matte, many with no logos what so ever. Some might have a similar geometry to a Madone or whatever, most of these companies will do a custom paint job for around $60 and many of the posters do their own wrenching. Guys are racing and putting lots of miles on their frames and they aren't exploding. Your indignation at the Chinarellos is largely misplaced because most guys simply aren't buying them. I personally find them to be just as hideous as the real Pinarellos.

I purchased a Miracle 008 frameset because the geometry fits my long leg/short torso and the price allowed me to buy the full carbon frameset I wanted. My training friends can afford to buy the real deal, I can't. I'm confident my LBS will work on my bike, they are co-sponsors of my team and sell plenty of real Cervelos and high end Madones to my buddies. I plan on buying a Rival group from them with my team discount and having them build it up.


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## Trower (Apr 28, 2009)

good for them, I support that philosophy 100%


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## mushroomking (Sep 26, 2008)

MojoHamuki said:


> People get so confused over warranties. All a warranty says is if there is a defect in the frame. So if you crash or crack your frame riding over a pothole good luck having it over even by a 100 year warranty unless the company feels the issue came about from poor design, or manufacturing


I'm not quoting any warranties in particular but frame defects are usually covered under full replacement. As for accidents/crashes that result in a busted frame, most manufacturers will offer a discounted rate for purchase of a replacement.

I have a friend who received one of the Madones with a faulty front derailleur braze and with the replacement/discount he got he upgraded to a custom painted model for a few extra bucks.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

robc in wi said:


> If you take the time to read through the 240 pages of the Chinese Carbon vers 5 thread....


If you look at the 6.0 thread, you'll notice:

1. There are way too many pictures of seats and seat clamps

2. There are more pictures of real or fake Pinarello, Cervelo & possibly Specialized than all others combined

3. You will not find a single regular on there commenting on whether they are legal, ethical or even welcome


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## andresmuro (Dec 11, 2007)

MarvinK said:


> Most of the time (like in this case) we end up in those threads because of another thread that got merged into it. Sure, we're disgusted when we see what's already going on in there. With each version of the Chinese thread, the counterfeit goods become more prominent. People in that thread can pretend they have high ethical standards, yet they continue to (at a minimum) silently sit by and let this illegal practice clog up a thread that used to simply be full of cheapskates. Right now the most common discussion is around a group buy for counterfeit frames (going as far as posting up pictures of the legitimate frames to decide which design to steal).
> 
> They may not change their mind--but it's not because of their 'high ethical standards.'


 People that discuss fake frames do not talk about ethical standards. It does not come up in their discussions. While I own 2 chinese frames, a ti and a carbon I don't pretend that they are a merlin and a pinarello. they both are one single color w/o any decals. However, I don't claim that I am in a higher ethical plane just because I don't do it. Im a neither a priest, nor god, nor the owner of god's ethics code of conduct. I limit myself to opine about bikes, and not about passing ethical judgements.


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## onlineflyer (Aug 8, 2005)

Some shop owners can be real dick heads. A local shop refused to tune a Titus road bike my daughter brought in because she built it. It was only like the 5th bike she had built. They claimed they had to dis-assembly the bike and re-build it to make sure it was done right. They never had an issue with bikes I brought in that I had built. Needless to say, neither she nor I returned to that shop.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't think every poster should be responsible for constantly commenting on other poster's ethics. But I do agree that those bikes shouldn't be tolerated on this forum.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Kontact said:


> I don't think every poster should be responsible for constantly commenting on other poster's ethics. But I do agree that those bikes shouldn't be tolerated on this forum.


I'm really leery of censorship, but people organizing group buys of counterfeits seems a bit over the line. I would not like anything done that would prevent someone from talking about buying a bike that looks like a Pinarello but has "Chinarello" on the downtube. I have been thinking of buying one like that. It would be a good conversation starter when out riding.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

trailrunner68 said:


> ...buying a bike that looks like a Pinarello but has "Chinarello" on the downtube. I have been thinking of buying one like that. It would be a good conversation starter when out riding.


Yea, I bet a lot of people would talk about you.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

MarvinK said:


> Yea, I bet a lot of people would talk about you.


Yeah, I'm sure you are much too pro to talk to fellow riders while riding. Have fun missing out on a great part of the sport.

We do appear to have unmasked the real motive for some people's outrage over counterfeits. It's not really the counterfeits. Those are just a way to attack any discussion of cheapo frames from China and those buying them.


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## sand101 (Mar 29, 2009)

andresmuro said:


> the ones who complain about poor Chinese quality, etc are people who never tried the frames. You can check out the pinarello, trek cerevelo forums to see if they have the same number of positive posts about those frames. Also, the chinese companies sell thousands of frames on ebay and they have very high ratings, and you don't see many people posting here that they got a chinese frame from ebay and that they got treated poorly by these companies. Complains are always by a third person such as, "I have a friend who got a chinese frame and he almost died when it exploded and release poisonous gas". He contacted the seller who replied that he was sending additional poison to finish him off".


Or maybe, like me, ordered a frame and ended up with one that had multiple defects - misaligned dropouts, seatpost hole that would not accept a seatpost, and a FD hanger (braze-on) that was also misaligned. And the seller was a bit of an ass about sending it back.

I realize I was one of the unlucky ones, but it is obvious that zero QC was done. That will undoubtedly lead to a higher number of bad frames making it out into the sales channel.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't see any problem with open mold frames coming from China as long as quality control has been done. I think the fact that people are buying them is good for the market. 

If no assurance of quality control exists, I don't blame shops for steering clear of these frames.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

PaxRomana said:


> I don't see any problem with open mold frames coming from China as long as quality control has been done. I think the fact that people are buying them is good for the market.
> 
> If no assurance of quality control exists, I don't blame shops for steering clear of these frames.


I'm really curious what you mean by "good for the market". 

I think that these bikes de-value name brands and could cause a bubble in the market that would lead to the demise of some big brands. I also think that exporting dollars directly to China isn't good for our economy, but what do you think is positive? Thanks.


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

MarvinK said:


> Most of the time (like in this case) we end up in those threads because of another thread that got merged into it. Sure, we're disgusted when we see what's already going on in there. With each version of the Chinese thread, the counterfeit goods become more prominent. People in that thread can pretend they have high ethical standards, yet they continue to (at a minimum) silently sit by and let this illegal practice clog up a thread that used to simply be full of *cheapskates*. Right now the most common discussion is around a group buy for counterfeit frames (going as far as posting up pictures of the legitimate frames to decide which design to steal).
> 
> They may not change their mind--but it's not because of their 'high ethical standards.'


Do you mean the bicycle design company full of cheapskates? Yeah, I think it's like Pinarello putting "Made in Italy" on their overpriced "Made in Far East" frames. Cheapskates used the third (or second) world labours and charge you with first world premium price. Enough is enough for cheapskates at some bicycle design companies and the "Society of People Who Don't Actually Make Their Own Sh!t." Unfortunately, the SOPWAMTOS (Society of People Who Actually Make Their Own Sh!t) doesn't make full carbon fiber frames.
SOPWAMTOS – Society of People Who Actually Make Their Own Sh!t 

Bicycle .net :: Where Is Your Bike Made? - Bicycle.net | Attitude is Everything
Where was my bike made?
".... After all, if you are led to believe by a bunch of marketing people that your bike was handmade in Spain when it was actually mass-produced in a Chinese factory, would you buy that bike? Maybe – but you wouldn’t pay a premium for it. ..."


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Kontact said:


> I'm really curious what you mean by "good for the market".
> 
> I think that these bikes de-value name brands and could cause a bubble in the market that would lead to the demise of some big brands. I also think that exporting dollars directly to China isn't good for our economy, but what do you think is positive? Thanks.


What is the difference between paying Specialized to send your money to China and sending it there yourself?

If the big brands go under it will be because they moved their manufacturing to China so that there is now little to no difference between brands. They turned their product into a commodity, and now they are upset that the end customer is doing exactly what they did: Going to China to get a cheaper price.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

trailrunner68 said:


> What is the difference between paying Specialized to send your money to China and sending it there yourself?
> 
> If the big brands go under it will be because they moved their manufacturing to China so that there is now little to no difference between brands. They turned their product into a commodity, and now they are upset that the end customer is doing exactly what they did: Going to China to get a cheaper price.


Maybe not much, but most of the money stays with the US company, and a smaller dollar amount ends up in China. But I agree that's the devil's choice, but China direct is worse for the US economy.

But there is the other problem - devaluing the market. When everything is cheap, nothing is very good.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Kontact said:


> Maybe not much, but most of the money stays with the US company, and a smaller dollar amount ends up in China. But I agree that's the devil's choice, but China direct is worse for the US economy.
> 
> But there is the other problem - devaluing the market. When everything is cheap, nothing is very good.


I tend to think that making companies face consequences for off-shoring their production will help the most. If we were talking about cheap goods then that would be different, but we are talking about frames selling for thousands. I figure if Calfee, Crumpton, Parlee, and even Trek can make high end frames in the U.S. then there is no reason why Specialized cannot.

I have no problem buying cheap frames from China because I refuse to pay first world prices for third world goods. My main ride is made in the U.S.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

trailrunner68 said:


> I tend to think that making companies face consequences for off-shoring their production will help the most. If we were talking about cheap goods then that would be different, but we are talking about frames selling for thousands. I figure if Calfee, Crumpton, Parlee, and even Trek can make high end frames in the U.S. then there is no reason why Specialized cannot.
> 
> I have no problem buying cheap frames from China because I refuse to pay first world prices for third world goods. My main ride is made in the U.S.


When those companies collapse, we'll all feel the consequences. Prices are too high right now, but there is considerable competition and development. When Specialized and Trek topple, there isn't going to be any more development or interest. That's fine for lot's of us, but cycling grows yearly because of the same tech derived fascination that sells fancy phones and huge TVs.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

I know that the Chinese frame will not be better than the household names out there, but I am willing to try it out and the cost is what I am willing to bear to find out.

I come from mountain biking. (_never in my life I thought I would get a road bike, but as age catches up on you, I do enjoy just going out on a ride and not coming back with a muddy bike or pain the back, but that is another story_) 

Got my first GT in 2006, since then I have stipped it down, sold off parts and the GT frame and built myself 2 bikes, 1 HT and 1 FS, using 'household named' frames. I had to go through it that way to find out what components I want and the right geometry for me.

The Chinese frame will be a good starting point for me on a road bike, as I am new to it, and it will not be an expensive lesson in terms of what frames to get. I know what components I need from my experiences with the components on my mountain bike. So just a matter of building another bike from a cheap frame ... :wink: ... _I might even build a wheelset using the carbon rims that they have ..._



So it is fair that the shop is right not to build using these frames ... for all the reasons posted by other members above .... but if you do find a shop that needs you to sign a disclaimer (_that the frame may crack the moment it is taken off the bike rack and put on the floor or if not, then it may, the moment you put your rear end on it  _) ... as you need a Chinese frame to be built, then that will be fair too ... is it not?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Just wait until their jobs get also outsourced to china, then they will stop buying Chinese or even timbuktuese frames


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

Really? Historically, I don't think there has been any indication that this is true. Virtually all OEM materials for consumer electronics, and I'm sure a very high percentage of OEM components for just about every other product sold in the US, including most bikes, are sourced in China or Korea. Pretty much every part of your iPhone, TV, or camera are outsourced, even if assembled in the US, regardless of brand name. The US has become a concept, development, and engineering country, while other countries, where the average line worker makes less than $20 on a 12 hour shift, have become the producers. I doubt that those who have been "outsourced" are denying themselves of these products. In fact, like it or not, it is the outsourcing that helps make these products affordable. I am not a proponent of outsourcing. I hate it, just like most others. But when it comes down to actually paying for something, the economics usually wins over principle.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

trailrunner68 said:


> I have no problem buying cheap frames from China because I refuse to pay first world prices for third world goods. My main ride is made in the U.S.


I agree with this.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Gimme Shoulder said:


> Really? Historically, I don't think there has been any indication that this is true. Virtually all OEM materials for consumer electronics, and I'm sure a very high percentage of OEM components for just about every other product sold in the US, including most bikes, are sourced in China or Korea. Pretty much every part of your iPhone, TV, or camera are outsourced, even if assembled in the US, regardless of brand name. The US has become a concept, development, and engineering country, while other countries, where the average line worker makes less than $20 on a 12 hour shift, have become the producers. I doubt that those who have been "outsourced" are denying themselves of these products. In fact, like it or not, it is the outsourcing that helps make these products affordable. I am not a proponent of outsourcing. I hate it, just like most others. But when it comes down to actually paying for something, the economics usually wins over principle.


To push this thread even farther into the broader discussion of manufacturing, the US is not really an engineering country anymore. With very short product cycles, a significant part of the engineering has to be close to where the manufacturing is. 

Apple didn't "engineer" the touch pad used in their products, they specified it. Sub-contractors elsewhere did the engineering, most likely the same companies that do the manufacturing. Back in the early iPod days, they didn't "engineer" the portable hard disk either, even though this was a key enabling technology.

Neither technical smarts, nor design excellence (in the near future), are monopolies of the first world.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Gimme Shoulder said:


> Really? Historically, I don't think there has been any indication that this is true. Virtually all OEM materials for consumer electronics, and I'm sure a very high percentage of OEM components for just about every other product sold in the US, including most bikes, are sourced in China or Korea. Pretty much every part of your iPhone, TV, or camera are outsourced, even if assembled in the US, regardless of brand name. The US has become a concept, development, and engineering country, while other countries, where the average line worker makes less than $20 on a 12 hour shift, have become the producers. I doubt that those who have been "outsourced" are denying themselves of these products. In fact, like it or not, it is the outsourcing that helps make these products affordable. I am not a proponent of outsourcing. I hate it, just like most others. But when it comes down to actually paying for something, the economics usually wins over principle.


Well I will not derail this thread into politics.

but do you really think all the working mass in the US and Europe is involved in engineering and development ?

The globalisation model was a push forward of the capitalist system. the current financiarization of the economy is even more 

The capitalism and free market indeed favors development and economic growth but it does so based on the search of maximizing the profit and concentrates the wealth in few hands they do so by maximizing profits and minimizing production costs, a big part of this production costs are labor costs so what you earn.

The elite of capitalists( I think you call them the 1 percenters), had a great idea, go and produce in the poor countries where they could pay very little to the people and sell those products with high prices to the rich countries where people had high income.

That worked great for many years and that elite made huge fortunes. 

The problem is that now they are extracting the money from the real economy and putting into financial markets where they can make even higher profits with no industry or people involved.

2 Results for that.

1. The poor countries learned how to produce by themselves and also learned the engineering and science related to it, now they can produce without you, they only need a bit of capital ( capital that comes to them through the financial system )

2. The rich countries real economies are gradually being des-industrialized, they can't be competitive anymore to the emerging countries and their people are earning less and less, and loosing their jobs more and more as their companies are delocalized to asia. 

The financial sector doesn't help because the financial markets are more productive than the real economy. and now after 2 financial crisis and the current internal debt crisis ( that is a consequence of that ) are pushing the people income and opportunities of work even lower.

It is indeed much more complex than that but you get the idea.

now. it is tragically funny that the people from the rich countries that are the mid-term direct victims of this, believe that the way out is just to go direct and buy cheaper from the poor countries to in this way "stick it to the man".

the truth is all we are in an inwards spiral.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

orange_julius said:


> To push this thread even farther into the broader discussion of manufacturing, the US is not really an engineering country anymore.


We're getting increasingly off topic, but that's not true at all. US manufacturing is still far, far larger (40%+ larger) than China or any other country.
U.S. still No. 1 manufacturing country despite cutbacks at factories | Dallas-Fort Worth Business News - News for Dallas, Texas - The Dallas Morning News
Anyway, back to bikes.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

trailrunner68 said:


> What is the difference between paying Specialized to send your money to China and sending it there yourself?
> 
> .


R&D, design, engineering/safety standards, accountability, and warranty service.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Just wait until their jobs get also outsourced to china, then they will stop buying Chinese or even timbuktuese frames


Quoted For Truth.

People, as a whole, are pretty stupid. They won't 'get it' until they're the one hitting the unemployment office.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Gimme Shoulder said:


> Really? Historically, I don't think there has been any indication that this is true. Virtually all OEM materials for consumer electronics, and I'm sure a very high percentage of OEM components for just about every other product sold in the US, including most bikes, are sourced in China or Korea. Pretty much every part of your iPhone, TV, or camera are outsourced, even if assembled in the US, regardless of brand name. The US has become a concept, development, and engineering country, while other countries, where the average line worker makes less than $20 on a 12 hour shift, have become the producers. I doubt that those who have been "outsourced" are denying themselves of these products. In fact, like it or not, it is the outsourcing that helps make these products affordable. I am not a proponent of outsourcing. I hate it, just like most others. But when it comes down to actually paying for something, the economics usually wins over principle.


Something like an iPhone is a bogus comparison. The iPhone is the result of millions upon millions of man hours of hardware and software development. It is that development that you are really paying for. Bike frames on the other hand are quite simple. A lot of the mid-level companies don't even design their own frames. They Taiwanese do it for them. 

The Asian companies will not stay satisfied with making frames for $200 that are then sold in the West for $3000. The big bike companies have slit their own throats by making everything a commodity. Their chief value right now is marketing and control of the retail sales channel. Direct purchase from Asia negates the sales channel advantage, and frames being turned into a commodity eliminates the marketing advantage.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

davidka said:


> R&D, design, engineering/safety standards, accountability, and warranty service.


You can get that from Pedal Force or Planet-X for a lot cheaper than buying from Specialized. It's only a matter of time before FlyBike (source for Deng Fu, Hong Fut, Keen, etc.) and similar manufacturers get their act together and have their frames certified to euro standards and increase the quality control so that niggling build issues disappear. They already do their own engineering.



PlatyPius said:


> Quoted For Truth.
> 
> People, as a whole, are pretty stupid. They won't 'get it' until they're the one hitting the unemployment office.


You keep saying stuff like this, but you have not explained how buying from Scott or any of these other big companies that manufacture everything in China is any different than buying direct. I'm supposed to pay extra money so people at Specialized keep their jobs? Then why don't they charge a reasonable mark-up like Planet-X? Why should anyone take it in the shorts by paying Specialized ten to twenty times the manufacturing cost?

If you want to save first world jobs then buy a Moots or an IF or a Crumpton or a Parlee or a Kirk or a Kish or a Strong or a Calfee or a Landshark or a Seven or a...


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Hiro11 said:


> We're getting increasingly off topic, but that's not true at all. US manufacturing is still far, far larger (40%+ larger) than China or any other country.
> U.S. still No. 1 manufacturing country despite cutbacks at factories | Dallas-Fort Worth Business News - News for Dallas, Texas - The Dallas Morning News
> Anyway, back to bikes.


You are correct regarding manufacturing in general, but I thought we were talking about bikes (back to bikes now?). Then again, I shouldn't have mentioned Apple in my previous post.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PlatyPius*
> _Quoted For Truth.
> 
> ...


There are two levels of "support". There's buying an Asia-sourced bike from an LBS, which puts money back into the local economy, and there's buying a US-made bike, which puts all of the money back into the US economy.

Don't get me wrong... I think paying $3000-$4000 for a plastic frame made in China is stupid. I don't stock any expensive carbon bikes from any of the brands that do that. The most expensive Asia-sourced carbon bike that I stock is Volagi. At $2895, I don't consider that too unreasonable.

Otherwise, I rely on brands like Cyfac, Lynskey, Gunnar, and such for the nicer stuff. If I'm going to pay $6000 for a carbon frame (non-US), I'm going to pay some French guys (Cyfac) who are making a custom frame for me by hand before I buy a stock Made in China frame. Even then, Cyfac is half-owned by an American, so not all of the money is going to France.


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

PlatyPius said:


> Quoted For Truth.
> 
> People, as a whole, are pretty stupid. They won't 'get it' until they're the one hitting the unemployment office.


I couldn't agree more.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> There are two levels of "support". There's buying an Asia-sourced bike from an LBS, which puts money back into the local economy, and there's buying a US-made bike, which puts all of the money back into the US economy.
> 
> Don't get me wrong... I think paying $3000-$4000 for a plastic frame made in China is stupid. I don't stock any expensive carbon bikes from any of the brands that do that. The most expensive Asia-sourced carbon bike that I stock is Volagi. At $2895, I don't consider that too unreasonable.
> 
> Otherwise, I rely on brands like Cyfac, Lynskey, Gunnar, and such for the nicer stuff. If I'm going to pay $6000 for a carbon frame (non-US), I'm going to pay some French guys (Cyfac) who are making a custom frame for me by hand before I buy a stock Made in China frame. Even then, Cyfac is half-owned by an American, so not all of the money is going to France.


That is something I can agree with. I would not mind a tasty Cyfac.

But I think bike shops should be figuring out ways to profit from people buying direct from Asia. That is not going away. Unless the big companies radically decrease their prices, it will only get stronger. The savings are too attractive.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

Everyone should only buy bikes from their local bike shop at full retail and the bike in question must have been hand built in the same country. Because that is what capitalism is all about.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

JackDaniels said:


> Everyone should only buy bikes from their local bike shop at full retail and the bike in question must have been hand built in the same country. Because that is what capitalism is all about.


actually that can sound stupid, but it would be the right thing to do.

Think about it. 

What if the customers of the company you work for, discover they can get from China, products like yours ( or at least that look like them ) for a low price and all start to go and shop direct from China.

What if your industry and/or your trade offices can't compete with the low QC products flooding the market ? or if the gray import market erode your sales ?

where will you then be in a few years ?

me, from my little corner I opt to buy most of things made in Europe and/or from European sources. and that as far as I can.


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

Salsa_Lover said:


> actually that can sound stupid, but it would be the right thing to do.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> ...


For those cheapskate bicycle frames design companies, they will need to lower the prices (doesn't have to be so cheap) and stop whining about cheapskate customers getting a frame directly from China. Otherwise, they could go out of business.


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## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

robc in wi said:


> Your indignation at the Chinarellos is largely misplaced because most guys simply aren't buying them. I personally find them to be just as hideous as the real Pinarellos.


Thank you! Seriously, Pinarello, Chinarello, Cinderello... They were born in the ugly tree, and then they fell, hitting every branch on the way down. How else do you think they got all those bends in the stays and forks?

Buying a counterfeit one isn't right, but I don't think buying an original is either. I'd rather choke to death on one of those biscottis I get with my macchiato than be seen on a Pinarello.


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## tee-bone (Apr 27, 2011)

As much as I like the idea of buying things that are made in the US, I don't think "buy American" is sustainable _unless the American products demonstrate a superior value proposition_. Mind you, I am someone who doesn't shop at Wal-Mart (both because I loathe their purchasing tactics and find that much stuff from there is crap that won't last) but to expect companies to base a business model that is essentially based on some sort of charity is, in my mind, naive. I do believe that we as a society would be better served moving away from quantity and toward quality; but brands that sell things that aren't really a better value to the individual making the purchase will fail.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

trailrunner68 said:


> It's only a matter of time before FlyBike (source for Deng Fu, Hong Fut, Keen, etc.) and similar manufacturers get their act together and have their frames certified to euro standards and increase the quality control so that niggling build issues disappear. They already do their own engineering.


According to these sellers, all of these frames are already EN certified (for what it's worth).


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Hiro11 said:


> According to these sellers, all of these frames are already EN certified (for what it's worth).


I hope so, but I am leery because of the build issues that people still have with them. Wide variations in tolerances make me wonder what sort of variations there are that cannot be seen.

As far as certification it might be best to buy the same models that Planet-X, Pedal Force, and such are selling because those should have been certified.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Hiro11 said:


> According to these sellers, all of these frames are already EN certified (for what it's worth).


Which is basically worth nothing. You trust the word of a company that makes a lot of its money doing counterfeiting? 

Don't get me wrong, I think Pinarello are complete frauds as well. Putting "Made in Italy" on there is disgraceful. It's an overpriced plastic frame made in Taiwan. There is nothing "Italian" about that frame. It's just like a Scott, Specialized, Cervelo, or whatever.

At the very least, you feel confident that Pinarello does the required testing. I wouldn't bet Flybike does a whole lot of testing to EN certification standards.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

PaxRomana said:


> Which is basically worth nothing. You trust the word of a company that makes a lot of its money doing counterfeiting?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Pinarello are complete frauds as well. Putting "Made in Italy" on there is disgraceful. It's an overpriced plastic frame made in Taiwan. There is nothing "Italian" about that frame. It's just like a Scott, Specialized, Cervelo, or whatever.
> 
> At the very least, you feel confident that Pinarello does the required testing. I wouldn't bet Flybike does a whole lot of testing to EN certification standards.


Flybike makes lots of different of frames. The frames are then sold by Hong Fu, Deng Fu, etc. Some are painted to look like Pinarellos by distributers. Flybike was started by people who left Carbotec, which does Pinarello's manufacturing. Supposedly they took old Pinarello molds with them. I don't think that they make a lot of their money from counterfeiters.

Whether Flybike's frames are actually certified, I don't know. But as mentioned above I am a little leery because with all the issues that people have building their frames, it is obvious that little QC is being done. Even if an example of the frame can pass EN standards, how do you know that the one that you buy would not have been rejected by QC if QC was being done?


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

trailrunner68 said:


> You can get that from Pedal Force or Planet-X for a lot cheaper than buying from Specialized. .


R&D, design, engineering/safety standards, accountability, and warranty service.

You are getting very little (except perhaps the safety standard) of the above from those companies. 

"Uni-directional weave"? That's an oxymoron in carbon fiber. These are decent open mold Taiwanese frames and nothing more. Pedal Force offers a 5 year warranty and there's a better than slim chance they won't be around long enough to honor it.

People feel that there is value in brands like Specialized, Trek, Cannondale, and Giant. This is why they are the most successful companies and they are not shrinking.


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

Have you ever tried to make a warranty claim ... good luck!
Specialized spent your money suing Volagi - very sad indeed.

A Fool and his money are soon parted ... :thumbsup:



davidka said:


> R&D, design, engineering/safety standards, accountability, and warranty service. You are getting very little (except perhaps the safety standard) of the above from those companies.
> 
> "Uni-directional weave"? That's an oxymoron in carbon fiber. These are decent open mold Taiwanese frames and nothing more. Pedal Force offers a 5 year warranty and there's a better than slim chance they won't be around long enough to honor it.
> 
> People feel that there is value in brands like Specialized, Trek, Cannondale, and Giant. This is why they are the most successful companies and they are not shrinking.


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## Iwannapodiumgirl (Jun 26, 2002)

one of the LBSs near me doesn't like building bikes where you neither purchase the frame nor groupset from them! they say it's for the same reason, i doubt it though!


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## markgiardini (May 25, 2011)

I was talking to a LBS employee about this kind of thing earlier this year, when I happened to notice a mat black CF bike sitting out in the work shop.
The frame looked almost identical to my Fuji SST 1.0 which I had purchased from this actual store. I say almost as there was no BB86 bottom bracket.

Talking to said employee, he had bought the frame off eBay, and was building up as a bit of a project. Business was slow, he figured he'd bring the bike in and work on it when he wasn't busy doing his 'real' job.

I happened to run in to that guy about 2 months later out a training ride, and asked him how he found the 'SST copy' to ride, as he was riding on it. He said it was average, but on par with what he expected from a $500 job.

More interesting was the fact the Fuji rep came in to the shop and cut sick at his boss for letting him work on what he (Fuji rep) called a counterfeit product.
He was in there on business, and obviously spotted the same bike I'd seen.
Lesson learnt - OEM builds are done at home.

As a rule tho, they also don't build up no name brands purely from a liability point of view.
Nothing worse than a customer walking in to a busy store with a cracked BangFu frame, claiming work shop fault.


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## nickt30 (Nov 29, 2008)

*cheap, difficult, & out of alignment*

I work most anything that is brought in.....
The work comes with a warning up front......
"The parts are on the inexpensive side and dont always work as expected and sometimes break while assembling, if something goes wrong you will have to deal with the warranty and the replacement costs. The assembly is a fixed price, but if the job takes longer then normal because of out of spec equipment I will have to charge you extra. I will do my best with the equipment you purchased from someone else and brought to me.....please take note, I can not take responsibility for the quality of this equipment.......If you had purchased one of my bikes i could guarantee all of this we just discussed, but in this case i can not. Would you still like me to do the work?....please sign here"

As for the rep of the bikes I sell.....he is not my concern. If the person came into to buy a bike i would have sold him one of mine. Now if i told him to go to the internet and buy a bargain and i would do the work then i can see the rep getting upset.....but in this day and age of the internet, with so many people buying stuff and needing a tech, I can not turn the business away. I am a service shop first and a retail store second.

But bargain hunters need to be aware that the stuff breaks, does not fit properly, and usually takes extra time to adjust because of all these issues....so it will cost you.

My favorite is " I just bought this bike and the brakes dont seem to work......can you help me?" I respond by saying "Sure it needs an adjustment".........then they say "and the gears are making noise".....my response is "yea.......you need a tuneup/assembly that costs $$$?" Oh the long faces when they here that......."But it is brand new, i just got it on the internet/bigbox store"..........I shrug my shoulders and wait for a response.


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## Jason rides (Jul 6, 2012)

I would never consider a Chinese bike when we have great bikes made here in the States (granted many are made overseas, but the quality control is still there) as well as Italtian bikes that are to die for. I don't care if they are cheaper, I want a company that I can depend on.


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## roubaix_sj (Nov 9, 2010)

this is one of the most bizarre things I've heard about a bike shop before. I guess they're rich enough to turn away $$$. I sure know in my city, no bike shop would be turning away any business. If anything, they'd be scamming customers asking them for more money due to the "custom" build..


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

markgiardini said:


> I was talking to a LBS employee about this kind of thing earlier this year, when I happened to notice a mat black CF bike sitting out in the work shop.
> The frame looked almost identical to my Fuji SST 1.0 which I had purchased from this actual store. I say almost as there was no BB86 bottom bracket.
> 
> Talking to said employee, he had bought the frame off eBay, and was building up as a bit of a project. Business was slow, he figured he'd bring the bike in and work on it when he wasn't busy doing his 'real' job.
> ...


Back when I managed a P*******e shop (best two minimum wage jobs I ever had), Fuji had pretty generous pro deals-couldn't have been all that much more expensive for a bike shop employee to buy the real deal.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

trailrunner68 said:


> That is something I can agree with. I would not mind a tasty Cyfac.
> 
> But I think bike shops should be figuring out ways to profit from people buying direct from Asia. That is not going away. Unless the big companies radically decrease their prices, it will only get stronger. The savings are too attractive.


Its darn near cheap enough to buy a bunch of framesets and have em custom painted with your shop logo on em and sell em for a mark-up. Think about it... YOUR shop logo running around town under how many people? All advertisting all the time! 

If you're starting (or on) a race team, same deal. Get some custom painted FMXXXs and have at it. Your race team logo all over the bikes? What's better than that? Beats everyone riding different frames. 

M


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

Bremerradkurier said:


> Back when I managed a P*******e shop (best two minimum wage jobs I ever had), Fuji had pretty generous pro deals-couldn't have been all that much more expensive for a bike shop employee to buy the real deal.


Jamis is pretty good about that too. Better than Specialized for example.

My personal budget, now that I no longer work for a shop, means I have to look places other than LBSes for new frames. Right now, I'm trying to figure out a way to afford a buddy's Rivet. He bought it a year ago, has barely ridden it, and now wants to sell. Perfect for me. Course, Van Dessel's are made in Asia somewhere, just like the November Bicycles bikes, just like...

M


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

MShaw said:


> Jamis is pretty good about that too. Better than Specialized for example.
> 
> My personal budget, now that I no longer work for a shop, means I have to look places other than LBSes for new frames. Right now, I'm trying to figure out a way to afford a buddy's Rivet. He bought it a year ago, has barely ridden it, and now wants to sell. Perfect for me. Course, Van Dessel's are made in Asia somewhere, just like the November Bicycles bikes, just like...
> 
> M


There are ways to still get bike shop deals, you know... Those of us who aren't anywhere near you would lose nothing, for instance.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

The typical knock off customer is one of the most difficult to deal with, and often has the most unrealistic expectations and is most detached from reality when it comes to pricing. There are very few benefits to catering to these users. If you buy a chinese no-name knock off, you should invest in learning how to wrench for yourself.


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## MD_007 (Jun 2, 2012)

MarvinK said:


> The typical knock off customer is one of the most difficult to deal with, and often has the most unrealistic expectations and is most detached from reality when it comes to pricing. There are very few benefits to catering to these users. If you buy a chinese no-name knock off, you should invest in learning how to wrench for yourself.


I would have to dis-agree. I think shoppers who shop in a lower price bracket might be more conscious of what costs money.

Me and my girls friend got motobecane bikes and when I assembled the bikes, we still took it to REI where they adjusted the Derailleurs and Trued the wheels. I fitted her on the trainer I have and also adjusted handlebars, brakes and a few other things myself.


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## curlymaple42 (Sep 13, 2012)

I ended up getting a Motobecane SuperStrada because for the price, i got an upgrade of components. I would rather support a local shop and buy one of their Made in Taiwan framed bikes, but i would not have gotten as good of components. If i had had more money i would have gone right to the local shop for sure! I am very happy with my bike.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

MarvinK said:


> The typical knock off customer is one of the most difficult to deal with, and often has the most unrealistic expectations and is most detached from reality when it comes to pricing. There are very few benefits to catering to these users. If you buy a chinese no-name knock off, you should invest in learning how to wrench for yourself.



Quoted for troof.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

MD_007 said:


> I would have to dis-agree. I think shoppers who shop in a lower price bracket might be more conscious of what costs money.
> 
> Me and my girls friend got motobecane bikes and when I assembled the bikes, we still took it to REI where they adjusted the Derailleurs and Trued the wheels. I fitted her on the trainer I have and also adjusted handlebars, brakes and a few other things myself.


Good job on bypassing ALL local businesses and going directly to corporate slimebags. Well played.


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## curlymaple42 (Sep 13, 2012)

Hey, i build custom furniture, so i am someone who is very connected to mass produced crap. The reality is some people just can't afford custom or higher end stuff. I don't like buying mass produced stuff from big places, but sometime we have to or just do for various reasons. Hell, all my machinery apart from my hand tools which are made in America, are made in Taiwan castings. Unless you have tons of money for machinery custom made, you will not find made in America machinery, period. So you get what you can afford, which is Delta, Jet, etc. 

The point is, at least i am riding again! I will support local shops when i can. Two years ago i started treatment for skin cancer, so the fact i am riding again at all is a blessing!


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## curlymaple42 (Sep 13, 2012)

I am curious how many of you actually have frames made in the USA and how much those cost you?


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

Jason rides said:


> I would never consider a Chinese bike when we have great bikes made here in the States (granted many are made overseas, but the quality control is still there) as well as Italtian bikes that are to die for. I don't care if they are cheaper, I want a company that I can depend on.


So few "made in ____" bikes are actually made in ____. The requirements to call something "Made in" are so ridiculously low, it's comedy.










By BH is "Made in Spain" but I am under absolutely no delusion that the carbon fiber was actually assembled in that country. At best, it received paint/inspection/packaging there. I still love the frame and have been unable to find anything that impresses me enough to replace it yet. The benefit to my frame over a 'chinarello' is that there IS a liable supplier chain through which I can obtain warranty support, tech support, etc if needed. There IS a legitimate R&D department behind it, not just a factory laying up random unknown sheets of carbon fiber into a mold that visually resembles a name-brand.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

curlymaple42 said:


> I am curious how many of you actually have frames made in the USA and how much those cost you?


you've completely missed the distinction between legitimate bike companies who may outsource part of their supply chain and/or frame building to China (or more generically, "Asia") and the different Chinese companies who sell knock-offs and outright counterfeit frames built with little or no quality control. Apples and oranges.

No one here has said, "if a frame is not built in the USA, it's junk..."


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## curlymaple42 (Sep 13, 2012)

So is Motobecane part of your knockoff campaign? Or are talking about companies like those cycling Jersey and shorts places that knockoff team Jerseys? I know in the gun industry that knockoff stuff fires on a lot. You look on Ebay and you can get a holographic sight that looks like an Eotech or Aimpoint, but is crap. Knockoffs.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

JustTooBig said:


> ... different Chinese companies who sell knock-offs and outright counterfeit frames built with little or no quality control.


Provide evidence to back up the claim that open mold or "generic" Xiamen/Shenzhen manufacturers are built with "little to no quality control". Anecdotally, there's hundreds of people on this forum who have been using these frames for years with no problems (including me). In particular, my bike assembled easily with no issues, the acid test of initial quality. 

More concretely, I have the SGS (third party) certified EN14781 test results on my ICAN MC053 frame. Which it passed.

I don't mean to harp on this, but people here often casually declare that generic frames are dangerous crap despite all evidence to the contrary.


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## Jetmugg (Sep 22, 2010)

Can anyone provide a list of bicycle frame manufacturers who provide frames 100% made in the USA? I suspect that there are none, when you consider the source of the iron ore, bauxite, titatium ore, hot mills, cold mills, tubing mills, harden and temper lines, etc required to make metal tubing.

When it comes to carbon fiber, I have even less knowledge about the sources of raw material.

What is a "Made in the USA" frame? I have an older Madone that was "Made in the USA", but I dont know that the carbon fibers, resins, and paints used in the manufacture of this frame were made in the USA.

If it's a "Made in the USA" steel frame, does that mean that it was welded or brazed in the USA, or is the steel or aluminum made in the USA as well.


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## curlymaple42 (Sep 13, 2012)

I sort of misunderstood this original thread, plus it was merged with another thread. It was more about the illegal knockoff frames than buying mail order bikes. Sorry.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

roubaix_sj said:


> this is one of the most bizarre things I've heard about a bike shop before. I guess they're rich enough to turn away $$$. I sure know in my city, no bike shop would be turning away any business. If anything, they'd be scamming customers asking them for more money due to the "custom" build..


That's not really a scam as it is a custom build.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm can see others wanting to try the no name stuff to save money. I think they just need to understand it's all on them if something goes wrong. I would have that mentality if a fork broke on the 4th ride of my no name frame.

I won't go this route. I would think about "what if the frame breaks" in my head on a curvy downhill run. That just messes everything up.


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## champamoore (Jul 30, 2012)

vladvm said:


> IMO I don't think people who buy chinarello's miss out on performance compared to the real deal, since performance comes from user - it is really all about the rider. it is a bike, who really cares as long as they make them ride out. and who really cares if you ride a real one?
> 
> rolex vs. folex & hyundia vs mercs is a different story since the user has nothing to do with performance.


Sure you power it yourself, but you are riding your stolen idea to make yourself look like a baller you are not. By riding a counterfeit, you are also putting the reputation of the brand at risk (when it fails), and last but not least, undermining the value that legitimate. 

Real Pinarello customers pay a lot for their status symbol. Fake Pinarello customers pay too much, for _a *lie*_ that profits on other people's hard work.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Is this ridiculous thread still going?


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

There's no reason for a shop to refuse building these bikes, other than the concern that it may affect their relationship with the brands they carry. Rather than admit this, I'm guessing they made up another excuse.

There's nothing wrong with buying an open-mould Chinese frame. Buying a counterfeit, though, is very lame.

Not that I have any sort of sympathy for Pinarello. They're an overpriced status symbol. Paying $6500 for a frame mass-produced in the Far East is just nonsense.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

PaxRomana said:


> There's no reason for a shop to refuse building these bikes, other than the concern that it may affect their relationship with the brands they carry. Rather than admit this, I'm guessing they made up another excuse.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with buying an open-mould Chinese frame. Buying a counterfeit, though, is very lame.
> 
> Not that I have any sort of sympathy for Pinarello. They're an overpriced status symbol. Paying $6500 for a frame mass-produced in the Far East is just nonsense.


I wonder if they do the same if someone brings in an old 2nd hand steel or aluminium frame that they have no idea of its history?


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

FTR said:


> I wonder if they do the same if someone brings in an old 2nd hand steel or aluminium frame that they have no idea of its history?


I'm guessing they don't. Another reason why their policy seems silly on its face. I'm guessing they must have had some sort of issue with the brands they carry. Brands like Specialized or Trek can leverage a lot of pressure on individual shops. My lbs carries a lot of high end brands (but neither Specialized nor Trek) and they work on any frame brought in.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

What if it is an old Specialized or Trek frame that they dont know the history of?

So much stupidity about this.
Next thing they will only service brand new bikes and wont do follow up service for fear of being sued as they dont know what you did with the bike between the time they sold it and the time you brought it back to be serviced.


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Good job on bypassing ALL local businesses and going directly to corporate slime-bags. Well played.


Platy's top secret business model for success :thumbsup:


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

FTR said:


> Is this ridiculous thread still going?


It's fun! 

They should make a new episode of "(Carbon Fiber) Bicycle Repairman" !!!!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

flatsix911 said:


> Platy's top secret business model for success :thumbsup:


It has worked well for me so far....


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

Platy,

Question for you as a bike shop owner: How do you determine which bikes to service? My LBS has a sign that bans someone coming in with a Wal Mart/Target/Dick's bike for repairs. However, there are many smaller brands that you may not have heard of. How do you treat those cases? I have two bikes from a small framebuilder. I'm pretty sure that a bike shop would have never heard of the brand, but I never get hassled about name brands, quality control on the frames, etc.. Should a bike shop ONLY service "big name" fames (Trek, CDale, etc.)? If so, do you question a customer on the orgins of their frames before you start a tune up? Do you perform a web search to verify it's not from a big box store or a Chinese knock off?


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

*More Questions*



PaxRomana said:


> I'm guessing they don't. Another reason why their policy seems silly on its face. I'm guessing they must have had some sort of issue with the brands they carry. Brands like Specialized or Trek can leverage a lot of pressure on individual shops. *My lbs carries a lot of high end brands (but neither Specialized nor Trek) and they work on any frame brought in*.


I think you bring up interesting questions. A bike shop carries Trek. A customer comes in with a Specialized. Should the bike shop not repair it? Does the shop simply imply a level of QC and go for it? Will I know I'm servicing a knock off Pinarello if I don't sell or have enough exposure to the real frames to tell the difference? It makes wonder if a shop can *legally* discriminate from performing work on ANY bike......


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

Tri Slow Poke said:


> Platy,
> 
> Question for you as a bike shop owner: How do you determine which bikes to service? My LBS has a sign that bans someone coming in with a Wal Mart/Target/Dick's bike for repairs.


I have worked in shops of varying target audience in three very different areas. None of them has ever refused to work on wal-mart bikes. You do have to be extremely honest with the owners of these bikes though - let them know what the bike is really worth and what it really takes to fix them. Half of them will either decide it's not worth it or just ask us to donate the bike (we have a big pile out back for donating to that bikes for africa thing).

Even in the shop I'm in now for which 90% of the showroom is nice road bikes, we would never risk coming off as an elitist bunch of pricks who are too good to work on a walmart bike. Not everybody can afford the custom Di2 Waterford but you know, someday they MIGHT be interested in an entry level Giant - the best they have right now is a Pacific. If there's even a slight chance that one day that person will want a nicer bike because we kept them engaged in cycling, then it's worth being open to helping them get rolling. Do you really want to turn a person away from cycling because "cyclists are snobs"?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Tri Slow Poke said:


> Platy,
> 
> Question for you as a bike shop owner: How do you determine which bikes to service? My LBS has a sign that bans someone coming in with a Wal Mart/Target/Dick's bike for repairs. However, there are many smaller brands that you may not have heard of. How do you treat those cases? I have two bikes from a small framebuilder. I'm pretty sure that a bike shop would have never heard of the brand, but I never get hassled about name brands, quality control on the frames, etc.. Should a bike shop ONLY service "big name" fames (Trek, CDale, etc.)? If so, do you question a customer on the orgins of their frames before you start a tune up? Do you perform a web search to verify it's not from a big box store or a Chinese knock off?


I work on everything. I understand why some shops don't, as I've seen some truly horrible bikes/frames come in. I don't have a large enough clientèle to be able to pick and choose though, so I work on all of it.

There are two types that are a definite thorn in my arse:

1) Cheap Chinese Crap - Not to be confused with ALL Chinese crap. China is, amazingly, a country and not a city of clones. The cheap knock-off frames can be rather scary at times.

2) Cheap WalMart crap - the most time-consuming, non-paying crap a shop can deal with. You can't charge what you need to, since the people are usually poor. Even if you could, they wouldn't pay it - they bought a WalMart bike, after all.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> I work on everything. I understand why some shops don't, as I've seen some truly horrible bikes/frames come in. I don't have a large enough clientèle to be able to pick and choose though, so I work on all of it.
> 
> There are two types that are a definite thorn in my arse:
> 
> ...


Back when I managed a Performance store, the WalMart bike problem pretty much solved itself-when even small replacement parts such as chains, derailleurs, tires and cable sets approach a quarter of the purchase price or more, they tend to go right back out your door, but there's still money to be made on them with flat fixes with tubes sold at keystone margins, and shop labor at almost two dollars a minute if you charge at least $5.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

IME the folks with the 'lawn furniture' bikes are the ones you want as customers. You get it working even remotely like it should and they're tickled pink cause it didn't work that well before. 

No, they probably won't buy that Pinarello (or even the clone) but since they don't know enough to change tires and tubes they'll keep coming back for the high margin 'repairs.'

M


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

This is the truth ... :thumbsup:



MShaw said:


> IME the folks with the 'lawn furniture' bikes are the ones you want as customers. You get it working even remotely like it should and they're tickled pink cause it didn't work that well before.
> 
> No, they probably won't buy that Pinarello (or even the clone) but since they don't know enough to change tires and tubes they'll keep coming back for the high margin 'repairs.'M


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Tri Slow Poke said:


> I think you bring up interesting questions. A bike shop carries Trek. A customer comes in with a Specialized. Should the bike shop not repair it? Does the shop simply imply a level of QC and go for it? Will I know I'm servicing a knock off Pinarello if I don't sell or have enough exposure to the real frames to tell the difference? It makes wonder if a shop can *legally* discriminate from performing work on ANY bike......


Well, they can refuse service, but they cannot charge you a higher price than they charge someone else for the same service. That is illegal and a violation of the Robinson-Patman act. Now, I doubt anyone's going to bring an antitrust suit against a shop though. 

This Platy guy seems very decent. I'd buy from him. I like smaller shops. I hate the big shops with the attitude to match.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> They can't even refrain from putting poison in baby formula in China, yet we're supposed to think that a no-name carbon rim maker is going to pay your hospital bills and replace the broken wheel?.


just like mavic did ...?


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

MarvinK said:


> The typical knock off customer is one of the most difficult to deal with, and often has the most unrealistic expectations and is most detached from reality when it comes to pricing. There are very few benefits to catering to these users. If you buy a chinese no-name knock off, you should invest in learning how to wrench for yourself.


I would carry it further and say the typical customer like that can be unreasonable, expect much more for their money than what's fair, and will often come back complaining.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

A couple of points. No particular order.

I build 149.00 bikes every day where I work part time. Funny thing is that they can run really well if you build them right the first time. Now I have almost 25 years experience, but the mechanic I have been training for five months can now do almost as good. I still believe that everyone deserves a well built bike, even if they can't afford a nicer bike.

Bargin hunters are everywhere, if someone wants to buy a chinerrlo then that's their choice. IMHO some people are more interested in how something looks then how it's going to stand the test of time. 

Me? Seems silly to refuse work, it's a chance to gain a customer. 

Bill


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## curlymaple42 (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeh seriously. I will tell you, if i bring my Motobecane into a shop and i get a snooty attitude, i will not be buying other stuff from them or my wife's bike or...


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