# IF...why the cost???????



## burl81 (May 20, 2005)

One of the days, my carbon need is going to be over and want to go custom. I think in some ways, much of the carbon frames/carbon talk is fluff. Much of what I've read and people have talked to and race steel bikes, have nothing negavtive at all so say about them. 

On that note, I have been looking at at IF crown Jewel, but wondering why they are priced much higher than a Soulcraft, Sycip (local guys to me), Rocklobster, Strong? Am I paying for the name,quality,paint etc? Becuase any of the other builders that I mentioned have exceptional quality behind their name.


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## Chompers (Feb 3, 2004)

burl81 said:


> One of the days, my carbon need is going to be over and want to go custom. I think in some ways, much of the carbon frames/carbon talk is fluff. Much of what I've read and people have talked to and race steel bikes, have nothing negavtive at all so say about them.
> 
> On that note, I have been looking at at IF crown Jewel, but wondering why they are priced much higher than a Soulcraft, Sycip (local guys to me), Rocklobster, Strong? Am I paying for the name,quality,paint etc? Becuase any of the other builders that I mentioned have exceptional quality behind their name.


Attention to detail. Look at their TIG welds (TIG is an art), then look at others . . . or any other detail for that matter . . . paint, miters, or what-have-you. Do you need it? . . . probably not, Do you want it? . . . Yes! I mean there are other builders who can make a frame and it will last just as long, but will it look as nice? It a hard question to answer because you can get a frame every bit as functional and spend the money you would have on the indy fab on better wheels, or some other components depending on your budget. . . . If you don't have a budget, then you should also get the sterling silver head badge.


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## FrancisB (Sep 10, 2006)

I tend to agree with the OP; IF changes (and gets) a premium for their product.

Good for them, and I'm all for capitalism.

But having said that, I think you can get equal if not better made custom frames for less. I've seen several IF's up close and personal. (full disclosure, I have not ridden one). Very nice.

But check out the work of Carl Strong, Vanilla (I know, who wants to wait 4 years now), Mike Zanconato,, and others often mentioned on these forums. These are works of art. 

And I'm sorry, but given the choice of TIG welded or fillet brazed or lugged frame, I think aesthetically the order is (IMO) is lugged, fillet brazed, and then TIG welded. All work fine and produce strong frames, but as far as looks go...

I think IF's niche is custom done quickly, and well. But if you can wait a while, I personally think you can get nicer for a bit less. 

BTW - I'm not trying to pee in anyones cheerios. I'd love to have an IF, I'm simply pointing out at that price point, you have lots of fantastic options.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

You don't have to spend IF dollars to get that kind of quality.

Many other custom builders offer smooth TIG welds and similar level, and perhaps more, level of detail and craftsmanship. All at a lower price.

Inglis, Strong, Curto, Sycip come to mind.

IF has become a premium boutique brand, good for them and congrats! But you don't need to go with them to get quality.


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## corky (Feb 5, 2005)

The best always costs more.....


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## towerscum (Mar 3, 2006)

*Same ol' story*

I buy my silly expensive bikes this way...I call the guy up and talk to him. If I like the dude, I buy his bike. Once you reach a certain point($$$$),all of the builders will produce a fine frame. Why not go with the one who you think is cool? I happen to like Richard and Dave at Waterford. They don't complain about my filthy emails. The guys at Soulcraft are cool too. Go to Clarke Cycles web page,they have a long list of builders to sift through. The search is part of the fun. Good luck and enjoy the ride!


towerscum


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Because they rock...*

I've got and IF Planet Cross. This is my second one and to be honest selling my first one was the stupidest thing I've done in a while, buying a new one the best. They offer to me, the best customer service on the planet! I must admit I've only used one other custom builder and that fell through, but I gotta say, the service at IF was top notch. The craftmanship is super and he finish awesome!!! The ride is heavenly..I've yet to see another custom builders paint come out at good as thiers do and I have seen quite a few. 

If I was buying again, yes, I'd get another IF..


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## homebrew (Oct 28, 2004)

Just out of the box IF www.msnusers.com/bikephotos Go to the left and click pictures.

This is the new 953 stainless steel IF crown jewel ssr. The photo does not do it justice. I am very pleased with all aspects of this bike. Details were better then I hoped for. Everything was custom, they measured me in ways that blew my mind and asked lots of questions regarding my riding style, wants, needs, and how I plan to use the bike. They went over my old bike, took photos and measurements of my position. They watched me on a trainer with my old bike to study my form. IMO a great bike is not just welds. Meeting your needs is what counts. In this respect IF produced for me the perfect frame based on what I use the bike for, my size and weight. They built it to handle on the quick side as per my request. The paint may not be to everyones taste but that was my choice. I think I got a great value all things considered. I will use them again for building a fixed time trial bike


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## HBPUNK (Mar 25, 2006)

you cant find a frame off the rack that gives you a proper fit, rides well and appeals to you? Youre willing to spend astronomical amounts of money on a steel bike because of "custom" geometry and the paint of your choice? Think about it

get a used Merckx or Colnago, or a new one for way way less then those "custom" builders, i n the end theyre all similar to the steel bikes everyone rode before the carbon generation and no reason for them to be expensive now, they never were before

or how about refinance your home so your custom steel can come with a Vanilla sticker on it


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## corky (Feb 5, 2005)

HBPUNK.....jealousy is an ugly trait.


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## towerscum (Mar 3, 2006)

*I hate the world*



HBPUNK said:


> you cant find a frame off the rack that gives you a proper fit, rides well and appeals to you? Youre willing to spend astronomical amounts of money on a steel bike because of "custom" geometry and the paint of your choice? Think about it
> 
> get a used Merckx or Colnago, or a new one for way way less then those "custom" builders, i n the end theyre all similar to the steel bikes everyone rode before the carbon generation and no reason for them to be expensive now, they never were before
> 
> or how about refinance your home so your custom steel can come with a Vanilla sticker on it



Christmas and birthdays must be really annoying for you, I mean,what can be more impractical than a gift. Especially to yourself. Lighten' up. rrr:
Don't bother responding. I'm done here.

towerscum


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## homebrew (Oct 28, 2004)

HBPUNK said:


> you cant find a frame off the rack that gives you a proper fit, rides well and appeals to you? Youre willing to spend astronomical amounts of money on a steel bike because of "custom" geometry and the paint of your choice? Think about it
> 
> get a used Merckx or Colnago, or a new one for way way less then those "custom" builders, i n the end theyre all similar to the steel bikes everyone rode before the carbon generation and no reason for them to be expensive now, they never were before
> 
> or how about refinance your home so your custom steel can come with a Vanilla sticker on it


I have had off the rack bikes for 30 years my friend. I just cracked my last bike (ti) after 65000+ miles doing an uphill sprint. I am not your average bike riders size or shape. I did think about it too. Bike fit becomes more important when you put on lots of mile as well as when you get older. This frame is far better for me then some "Brand" bike that was made for Mr.Joe Average in both performence and reducing injury. If your of average size then go for it but for me this is the best money I have spent. Consider the cost over the life of the bike my friend. This bike will not rust and has a lifetime warranty. Colonago come with that? On one point I will agree, being a bike snob is poor form. That can be the guy at the coffee shop on his $15000 rig that he never rides acting like something he's not or the young kid on a junker that looks down his nose at everyone els for not being a "real" cyclist becouse the have a nicer bike. FYI most of my life I have gotton by on used frames that I built up myself. Today is not that day. Today I just got my dream frame after a long wait and its getting built up the way that works best for me. See you on the rode. Be sure to wave. I'll buy you a expresso


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

burl81 said:


> One of the days, my carbon need is going to be over and want to go custom. I think in some ways, much of the carbon frames/carbon talk is fluff. Much of what I've read and people have talked to and race steel bikes, have nothing negavtive at all so say about them.
> 
> On that note, I have been looking at at IF crown Jewel, but wondering why they are priced much higher than a Soulcraft, Sycip (local guys to me), Rocklobster, Strong? Am I paying for the name,quality,paint etc? Becuase any of the other builders that I mentioned have exceptional quality behind their name.


Remember that any item that you buy through a retailer will have a retailer's margin built into the price. Also remember that the cost of doing business varies depending on location. Overhead for builder A in location B may simply be higher than builder X in location Y and the final price can and will vary accordingly. There are so many variables that go into the final price of a product that you can not single out any particular one of them. And there is always the wild card of what the manufacturer's perceived value of what they do and know is, and what they thing that is worth. And yes, some builders/manufacturers think their perceived value to the marketplace is lower price. Others believe their value is in their expertise and fabrication abilities and they charge more for it. Then there is good ol' supply and demand.

Some of you may/will think this is coming from a biased source, but this is business 101.

Bottom line is you gotta buy what you think is right for you.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

*Hey homebrew*



homebrew said:


> Just out of the box IF www.msnusers.com/bikephotos  Go to the left and click pictures.


That's an interesting saddle - what is it, do you have a close up icture of the it?

Fine looking bike too .......


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## homebrew (Oct 28, 2004)

Saddle is a Tune speedneedle, The current cusom leather is going to be replaced with leather to match the bar tape. Won't add performence but the color of the saddle next to the tape just bothers me. Thanks


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## Lawrencer2003 (Nov 26, 2006)

I went with Waterford although I liked IF as well. It was the lugs! If you want a bike that you can ride all day long and feel fresh when you dismount, go custom.


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## WadePatton (Dec 29, 2006)

*losta folks to choose from*

and I agree wholeheartedly with the poster who said to find someone you like. Find someone that pleases you with his/her work and also personality, then place your order and save up the money.

A pretty good list is here: http://handmadebicycleshow.com/2008/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=26

And I can think of several who aren't NAHBS exhibitors.


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## RobbieTunes (Jan 21, 2008)

Once I "finish" riding bikes I like and can afford, I'll know more about how/where/when I ride. Then, I'll look for a custom frame. I do worry about getting measured, tested, questioned, and then fleeced. The only safeguard against that is a good guarantee and places like this where I can look at what the experienced people say.


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## scmaddog17 (Aug 25, 2003)

part of the price will have to do with overhead. i've never been to the IF factory but maybe they have a lot of staff. the other thing is they figured out that they can sell their framesets at the prices they set. and it seems to be right since their still in business. i'll use this as a comparison, why should i spend over $3000 for an IF 953 frameset when for half that price i can get an Ionic? same material, welded the same way, good chance the Ionic isn't made in China. now, i've never seen an Ionic frame up close, for that matter i've never heard of them until i did a google search for Reynolds 953. the name can play a part in the price too. i was tempted to buy the Ionic, but haven't yet until i find someone who owns one. their price is too good to pass up but if it's built poorly then i just wasted my money. if your happy with paying IF's price, then go for it. you won't be screwed by any stretch of the imagination, but if you have doubts and don't care too much about the name on the frame, then go for the other alternatives. there are plenty of frame builders out there, good luck with whatever you choose and post a pic.


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## Rugby11 (Sep 25, 2003)

I have an Ionic S3 Nemis. They are built in Colorado by Dean Bikes. Wait time is 3 to 5 months but well made frame with spot on welds. Stickers are a little thick but it doesn't bother me. You can check my gallery for pics,


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## scmaddog17 (Aug 25, 2003)

i was looking at one of those too, so Dean does a nice job with them? it's hard to pass them up at the prices they offer.


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## Rugby11 (Sep 25, 2003)

just be patient, but the quality to price ratio is excellent. For S3 Curtlo does great work as well not sure if he is using 953.


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## Troy16 (Jan 2, 2003)

HBPUNK said:


> you cant find a frame off the rack that gives you a proper fit, rides well and appeals to you? Youre willing to spend astronomical amounts of money on a steel bike because of "custom" geometry and the paint of your choice? Think about it
> 
> get a used Merckx or Colnago, or a new one for way way less then those "custom" builders, i n the end theyre all similar to the steel bikes everyone rode before the carbon generation and no reason for them to be expensive now, they never were before
> 
> or how about refinance your home so your custom steel can come with a Vanilla sticker on it



Could not agree more. Before carbon, lugged steel bikes were not expensive. It is only recently when mostly fat middle agish yuppies have developed a "need" for custom steel bikes along with all the ride quality BS about ohhhhhhhh its steel, its springy, blah blah blah that the prices have gone up. I laugh at all these characters whop think they have bought some "great" deal for a nosebleed price so they can have a toptube 1 cm longer than what they could have found in any number of sanely priced stock steel offerings. Very few of these blowhards are serious racers, they are serious consumers like the local womans shopping club. LOL

A house with a Vanilla or Sachs decal on it, LMFAO, that's too funny a thought.


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## handsomerob (Oct 5, 2005)

Troy16 said:


> Could not agree more. Before carbon, lugged steel bikes were not expensive. It is only recently when mostly fat middle agish yuppies have developed a "need" for custom steel bikes along with all the ride quality BS about ohhhhhhhh its steel, its springy, blah blah blah that the prices have gone up. I laugh at all these characters whop think they have bought some "great" deal for a nosebleed price so they can have a toptube 1 cm longer than what they could have found in any number of sanely priced stock steel offerings. Very few of these blowhards are serious racers, they are serious consumers like the local womans shopping club. LOL
> 
> A house with a Vanilla or Sachs decal on it, LMFAO, that's too funny a thought.


I have a 1984 Serotta Club Special that I got about two years ago for super cheap, but it originally cost someone about $600 for the frameset in 1984. So, well made lugged bikes aren't cheap now and they weren't cheap then. 

If you prefer to ride a carbon bike made by a machine instead of a steel bike handmade by a professional builder then go ahead and do so. But to disparrage those that prefer custom steel in the way you have is pretty juvenile.

By the way, your provision that most of the custom bike buyers are both fat and middle age is priceless. Your stock really went up with that little nugget of wisdom.


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

don't feed the troll


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## jpfirefly (Mar 16, 2012)

The main guys from IF stayed in Boston when the company moved to NH. It's vastly different now in terms of personnel.


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## jlwdm (Nov 7, 2009)

Response to a 4 year old thread? IF has had a number of personnel changes over the years and survived quite nicely. 

Jeff


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## AndyMc2006 (Oct 27, 2006)

corky said:


> The best always costs more.....


I dont think they are the best.... You are paying extra because the IF dealer gets a cut and there are a staff of welders and machinists and finishers that need to get paid.
If you go with a single custom builder like Carl Strong you probably get a better bike but your gonna have to wait 5-6 months to get it.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Overhead costs are much higher for the small production/custom builders. They have higher rents because of larger production facilities, more machinery, people to run those machines, as well as marketing costs.

A single man shop working out of his garage can run a cheaper operation as well as take various tax write-offs for running the business from his home.

IF is one of the more successful operations but their higher pricing is necessary to keep the business running. Seven and Serotta are similar.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Troy16 said:


> Could not agree more. Before carbon, lugged steel bikes were not expensive. It is only recently when mostly fat middle agish yuppies have developed a "need" for custom steel bikes along with all the ride quality BS about ohhhhhhhh its steel, its springy, blah blah blah that the prices have gone up. I laugh at all these characters whop think they have bought some "great" deal for a nosebleed price so they can have a toptube 1 cm longer than what they could have found in any number of sanely priced stock steel offerings. Very few of these blowhards are serious racers, they are serious consumers like the local womans shopping club. LOL
> 
> A house with a Vanilla or Sachs decal on it, LMFAO, that's too funny a thought.


There is a splinter of truth in your statement but the absence of qualifying statements regarding bike purpose, bike geometry and rider geometry indicate the lack of depth of your knowledge on the subject. Over and out.


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## jerryused (Aug 13, 2012)

*Hello*

I read the FAQ and I am still confused about posting.


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## jerryused (Aug 13, 2012)

I guess I'm posting.
Hello this is Jerry.


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## DocRogers (Feb 16, 2006)

I picked up a used IF Planet X on ebay last fall and it has become my "go to" bike for most of my riding. Obviously not custom (to me, at least), but still about the nicest riding frame I've ever tried. BTW, I'm "middle aged" (46) and 6 pounds heavier than I was at the start of my last race (Battenkill Roubaix 2006), so I guess I qualify for a custom steel frame, as I'm obviously not worthy of carbon. Guess I'd better sell the Madone to some kid...


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

I just did two hours on my steel Zukas cross bike and you can't go wrong with one of those.. I had an IF a few years back and have always regretted selling it..


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## 2melow1 (Jan 17, 2015)

I never thought I would do this, but my IF XS is listed for sale. 58.5cm 

Spam pass Independent Fabrication XS TI/Carbon/Amazingness - RoadBikeREVIEW.Com


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