# Giant TCR/OCR composite headset questions



## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

Hello All,

Does anyone know what type of integrated headset these bikes take?

1.Is it the kind where the bearings drop into the headtube with no presssed in cups?

2. Or is it the kind where tiny cups are pressed in and then the bearings go in?

3. What actual model of the FSA is it?

4. Is it compatible with a model from Cane Creek?

5. Some of these come with a conical sort of spacer piece that goes between the headset and the stem. Are these conical things available in different heights/dimensions?

Thanks for any help.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*drop-in...*



eflayer2 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Does anyone know what type of integrated headset these bikes take?
> 
> ...


As I remember, Giant uses the cane creek standard, that drop in. To be absolutely sure of the standard you should measure the bearing OD. FSA makes both cane creek and campy standard headsets, the two are not the same.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=34

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=68

To answer question 5., you're talking about the bearing seats in the head tube. Some brands have removeable seats (like LOOK) and some don't. A Giant dealer should know, or you can tell by looking at the seats. If they're split, then they can be removed and replaced. If they aren't split, then they are probably considered to be permanent. The permanent kind can be remachined if they become damaged, but finding a shop with the tools might be tough.


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## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

regarding question number 5, I am not speaking of anything internal, but a cone shaped spacer about 2cm tall that goes above the top bearing and before you put on regual spacers. It creates a nice smooth transition between the top of the headtube going up to the stem. I think both fsa and cane creek sell full headset with these in different sizes as well as the cone shaped things separately.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=296


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Giant HS's have the slide in cups for the bearings to sit on. I would not call them "press in" as you can install and remove them by hand.
As for the conical HS cap. One size. But I was unaware that any Giant has this. The only HS I have seen like this is the FSA Orbit IS Carbon. Not something you would find on a stock bike.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*misread that...*

I misread that question. The answer is that there are usually only two sizes, a short one and the tall one that you linked. The short version is usually in the 5-8mm range. All brands offer short and tall top sections, but maybe not separately as replacement items.

http://www.canecreek.com/is-6.html


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## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

My understanding is that Giant DOES NOT have any cups that press in.

The bearings literally sit inside the machined metal inside the headtube and these machined metal surfaces are not replaceable.

True?


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

No, there is a very thin metal spacer that slides into the headtube. The bearings sit on that. The bearings do not have direct contact with the frame.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*I think you're guessing...*

All of the major types are shown on the park tool site, previously linked. I don't know of any that use any sort of thin "spacer" as you call it. Internal types have press-in cups with a lip at the top. Integrated type cartridge bearings all ride directly on a 45 or 36 degree angled bearing seat. This seat may be removeable but I've never seen any "slip-in" version, unless you're calling a split 45 degree seat, a slip-in.

My money's on the Cane Creek standard integrated, the same used by LOOK and many others. 

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=68


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## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

I now believe that the Giant OCR has no mechanically pressed in cups. But when installing the proper integrated headset, one does put a thin split-ring spacer in the headtube first and then the bearing is dropped in on top of that.

Both FSA and Cane Creek makes these headset to the word wide Cane Creek standard. On the other hand I was interested in a wider top cap and both companies offer full headsets with wider top caps and both make wide top caps available separately from their web stores. Top caps from each company supposedly are not interchangeable.

I was interested in a wider top cap because I want my bars up high and the conical top caps create a smooth transition up the steerer when mated with a couple or regular-type headset spacers.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

No, not guessing.
I have personally installed about 2 dozen of these headsets in Giant frames.
And from the site that you linked to you can get this....

"The frame below uses pressed inserts or rings for the angular contact. Notice the split in the ring. These press in with only hand pressure against the machined relief in the frame."

That is not too different than what I said before....

"Giant HS's have the slide in cups for the bearings to sit on. I would not call them "press in" as you can install and remove them by hand."


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## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

Not starting a fight but would like to nail this down.

So which one of the following describes the headset type in a Giant OCR Composite frame?

Thanks,
Eddie

"Low Profile", "Zero Stack", "Intergrated with Cups", "Internal Headset", "Semi-Intergrated" types 

This type of headset system has, unfortunately, several names. Cane Creek® uses ZS or Zero Stack, while FSA® uses the Orbit Z series. The low-profile, zero-stack, integrated-with-cups, semi-intergrated, or internal-headset systems use pressed frame cups that act as a holder for the bearings. The cups have a flange, or lip, and sit adjacent to the outer edge of the top and bottom of the headtube. The headtube is a relatively large outside diameter, approximately 50mm, and cups allow the bearings to sit flush or even inside the headtube. The headset bearings sit "internally" to the top and bottom of the headtube. Some models use a cup that holds a cartridge bearing. The cartridge bearing is a slip fit into the cups. The cups act as a bearing holder and do not take bearing movement or wear directly. Other types have the cartridge bearing and cup/holder as a unit. These are simply replaced as a unit when it is worn out. Still another version of this type uses a cup and cone system with caged ball bearings, similar to the conventional threadless headsets. Additionally, the depth of insertion into the headtube will vary between brands and type. If the bike was designed for a shallow cup, a deeper cup will not properly fit. This lack of consensus in depth makes reaming the inside of the headtube problematic.

or this:

Integrated- Angular Contact System (without cups)

The integrated system uses cartridge bearings that are supported by machining in a specially shaped head tube. The frame may also use pressed rings or retainers inside the headtube. A cartridge bearing slips into these "cups" or supports, and is simply lifted out for replacement. There is no contact with the headtube face. The bearing sits inside the headtube, and references the angular contact. There are different standards within this integrated-angular contact family, and these are not interchangeable. A table at the end of this article summarizes the various standards.

The "IS" system is considered the most common. The name Integrated System is not a registered trade name. The system uses the 45-degree bearing contact in the frame. The bearings for the 1-1/8 inch steering columns use a 41mm outside diameter with a 45-degree bearing contact in the frame. The bearing may be marked "36-45". The first number refers to the inside bearing contact with the headset race or centering cone. The second number refers to the frame contact. 

The less common 36-degree angular contact standard uses a bearing for the 1-1/8 inch steering columns with a 41.5mm outside diameter. The bearings may be marked "36-36".


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Integrated angular contact, but you need the frame inserts. These come with the frame, not the headset. Although all Giant frames are shipped with headsets. So if this whole thing started because you're ordering a frame and need to get a HS for it, don't. It comes with one.


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## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

*this whole thing started because...*

1. I am getting a new frameset and wanted to know as much as possible about the headset and the parts that come with it.

2. Wanted to know the best way to get my bars as high as possible and saw some headsets with wider/taller top covers.

3. Wanted to know which model headset the frame came with so I could figure out if a wider/taller top cover was available for it as an aftermarket purchase.

The frameset is supposed to arrive today and inspection along with your responses will reveal all the answers.

Do you have an opinion or experience with OCR Composite frames? Are they any good?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

GIANT frames use Internal HS aka Cane Creek ZS or FSA ORBIT Z!


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Actually they use IS-2's, or the Orbit IS.
You may want to have another look at you Giant.
Internal, and integrated are not the same thing.
The FSA that comes stock with the frame set is the Orbit IS


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Every frame I see listed use the ZS or Internal HS.

Just take a look at my site at all the GIANT TCR and OCR bikes.
I also contacted someone I know who has one, ZS


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## wasfast (Feb 3, 2004)

eflayer2 said:


> 2. Wanted to know the best way to get my bars as high as possible and saw some headsets with wider/taller top covers.


The top cover doesn't have anything to do with how tall the bars are. The amount of spacers under the stem determine the height of the stem. The topcap is there to provide some compression to keep the headset under preload. Tall or short cap won't change the bar height.


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## wasfast (Feb 3, 2004)

I have a 2004 TCR Composite frame. The headset that came with it is closest to the FSA Orbit IS. Giant provides their own carbon cap which is junk actually. The FSA is much nicer looking and stronger since it's not flat but cup shaped.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Strange, cause even Giant's site states Integrated, not internal.
And my TCX that is 5 feet away clearly has an Orbit IS.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Huh? The top camps can be flatish, 8, 10 or 15mm high and will require less spacers.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

I just called GIANT USA.

"They use a proprietry Intergrated HS made by FSA and you cannot not purchase it anywhere."

Well this is getting confusing. Sounds like the IS system which mean intergrated or IS, but yet everyone I have seen listed says the ZG.

Good luck guys!


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

It is a HS made by FSA for Giant. It is nearly identical to the Orbit IS except it says only "FSA" on it. There is no "Orbit" distinction, it also has Giant printed on it, and comes with the frame inserts needed to install it on a Giant frame. They are correct that you can only purchase this from Giant. But it's a moot point if you already have the inserts.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

If it has insert, then that makes it a ZG or Internal HS








*Zero Stack* 
The Zero Stack (ZS) design headset requires a relatively large head tube and *utilizes bearing cups* that are hidden or partially hidden inside the head tube. The Zero Stack headset offers a low stack height, a clean look and the security of bearing cups. 
These headsets may be used only in frames specifically designed for their use. With the introduction of Zero Stack headsets by Cane Creek Cycling Components in 1999, an industry standard for head tube interface dimensions was set at 44.0 mm nominal for 1-1/8" headsets. This dimension has been widely adopted by other headset manufacturers and the bicycle industry over the last 3 years. Beware of headsets recently introduced to the market, such as the King Cycle Group's Perdido, with a 44.5 mm nominal diameter. This is not compatible with the adopted industry standard. 

*Integrated System* 
The Integrated System (IS) design utilizes no bearing cups and requires a carefully machined head tube to specific bearing interface dimensions. The Integrated System design is extremely dependant upon frame quality and finishing, and is very sensitive to frame, fork and stem tolerances. 
While there are unlimited options for the bearing dimensions offered by others in our industry, Cane Creek Cycling Components has established a standard set of specific bearing dimensions in our Cane Creek and Aheadset® brand Integrated System headsets going forward. We have successfully used the Cane Creek recommended standard bearing platform for several years. By going forward with the Cane Creek standard we can simplify future confusion in manufacturing and customer service caused by multiple sizes.

Funny thing is when I recived my BLUE RC6, i thought it used a IS HS. It camw with a HS but I wanted my FSA. Turns out it uses the Campy IS HS. When I called BLUE, they said people were using BOTH styles. The CC version was jusy too tall and there was a gap between the top cover and the beraings. The Campy version sat real flush!

Also the HS from FSA, Cane Creek and Aerus all use the same bearings from TH brand. it's just the covers and such that make them different.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

"If it has insert, then that makes it a ZG or Internal HS."

Nope. Sure don't.
That picture above on the right is what giant uses. The difference is that in this picture the frame is machined at 45deg to accept the bearings directly. Giants are not like this. They are machined at 90deg. You are then provided with inserts or rings for the angular contact that is required. The reason for this is frame preservation. As you ride and slam your bike around the HS becomes worn and slightly ovalized. With the above pictured integrated system it is your frame that gets toasted, with Giant's system it is the frame insert. So you buy a new HS off of giant for $30 as opposed to a new frame.

You should really have a better idea of what you are giving advice on. If you have never installed an integrated HS on a Giant, please don't post.


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## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

*wow hasn't this gone around and around*

UPS should be delivering mine today.

Hope it is the one with replaceable inserts. That seems a little more utilitarian to me.

Thanks,
Confused


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*similar to LOOK?*

Your description sounds similar to LOOK frames. They also have a removable insert, but it's only the 45 degree seat that's replaceable. The OD that's a slip fit for the bearing is the head tube. They still use the Cane Creek standard 41mm, 36 x 45 degree bearing.

I looked at a Giant at a local shop and I could see a metal insert of some sort on the top, but none on the bottom. Although the inserts are undoubtedly Giant frame repair items, just like the LOOK parts, the HS bearings should still be one of the standards.

As for DirtBoy's comment about his Blue frame, if a Campy Hiddenset will fit into the head tube then it's made for a 41.8mm OD bearing. If a Cane Creek 41mm bearing is installed, it should have a very loose fit to the ID of the head tube and sit too low.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Just osting info from what i can find out.
again there are so many TCR/OCR listed on my site and they all say ZS or Internal.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

The CC was a loose fit, BUT sat too high.
the frame came with an Aerus HS and rthe bearings are campy style.


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## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

My Giant just came via ups. The headtube is aluminum on the inside. There is a shelf near the top and near the bottom. A split ring thing sits on the angled milled-in shelf, not a pressed in cup, goes in next and then the bearing drops in on top of that.

I just spoke on the phone to FSA. Not that that means perfection.

The bearing in the Giant is labled 36x45. FSA said that would be their IS model headset compatible with the Cane Creek standard.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*just what I figured..*

See if the bearings have a number on them or measure the OD. I expect they will be 41mm. They may have a TH industries #873 on them and may have a blue seal.


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## eflayer2 (Feb 15, 2002)

#873 is present


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*cane creek standard...*

At least you know that the HS can easily be replaced or repaired, since it's a cane creek standard. FSA offers the same thing.

http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=BB4610


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Goo. I also contaceted Speedgoat and asked them. They said it varires year to year on the HS style for GIANT. They said contact Giant for what model year uses what HS.

So I guess i was right and wrong as well as others. 

At least you know what YOUR frame will use!

Enjoy it!


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

You guys kill me.
What the hell have I been saying this whole time?
The HS is the same as an Orbit. Which is built to the Cane Creek standard. But it also has an insert.
Wow, it's a good thing you all listen so well.
And I went to your site. The first 5 Giants I looked at all said FSA Integtrated.
But I guess you must know more than me on this topic, having installed so many of these.
By the way, Giant has not changed there HS design in at least the last four years.


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