# Titanium versus Carbon Custom Frame



## BoilerMike (Feb 11, 2011)

I will be having a custom road frame built this winter. Regarding comfort and power transfer, I am looking for some conventional wisdom (if there is such a thing) as to the pros and cons of titanium/carbon/mixed frames. I do mostly longer group rides, but I LOVE to climb. 

My leading candidates are Guru, Independent Fabricators, Firefly and Seven. 

Thanks!


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

You are getting custom, any builder worth their salt will be able to give you the ride characteristics you desire. Don't forget Strong Frames Carl is also a great builder. Materials are merely means to an end.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

kiwisimon said:


> You are getting custom, any builder worth their salt will be able to give you the ride characteristics you desire. Don't forget Strong Frames Carl is also a great builder. Materials are merely means to an end.



This^^^^^^^^^^^


And I have personal experience with Carl Strong and can not speak highly enough of his experience, process and definitely his finished product.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

kiwisimon said:


> You are getting custom, any builder worth their salt will be able to give you the ride characteristics you desire. Don't forget Strong Frames Carl is also a great builder. Materials are merely means to an end.


I can vouch for Carl as well. He definitely know his business. Give him a call OP.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

personally I would stay away from Guru and I would expand to other outfits. There's several I would consider that are absent from your list.

do some searching on handmade bikes in the US.


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## BoilerMike (Feb 11, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> personally I would stay away from Guru and I would expand to other outfits. There's several I would consider that are absent from your list.
> 
> do some searching on handmade bikes in the US.


Any reasons why (on Guru)? I demo'd one and the ride was quite nice. Feel free to direct message if you wish. Also, whom would you recommend?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Custom frames are a sort of personal thing. I wouldn't necessarily recommend anyone, I instead recommend you do your own research for a few months before deciding. That being said, personally I would go with Alchemy for carbon and Jim Kish for Titanium. Alchemy does titanium too, I just haven't ridden one yet. That's just me though based on my own experience with their companies. As for Guru, again just personal issues with the company. I don't have any reason to buy a bike from another country anyway if it's being made custom for me.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

just curious why custom? do you have unusual measurements or are you normal proportioned and looking for better fit? I don't know if a person would benefit from a custom designed bike if they were of the usual proportions and flexibilities?




BoilerMike said:


> I will be having a custom road frame built this winter. Regarding comfort and power transfer, I am looking for some conventional wisdom (if there is such a thing) as to the pros and cons of titanium/carbon/mixed frames. I do mostly longer group rides, but I LOVE to climb.
> 
> My leading candidates are Guru, Independent Fabricators, Firefly and Seven.
> 
> Thanks!


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Donn12 said:


> just curious why custom? do you have unusual measurements or are you normal proportioned and looking for better fit? I don't know if a person would benefit from a custom designed bike if they were of the usual proportions and flexibilities?


I agree. Unless you're 7' tall and built like a gorilla, you don't "need" custom. "Want" is of course a different story.

Also, frame material is a red herring in terms of performance characteristics. As is marketing jargon like "power transfer". Get something you like the look of and like the feel of and don't worry about material. Personally, I like Ti as I think it withstands minor impacts better, is easier to work on and more commonly features threaded bottom brackets (a personal necessity) than carbon. Note that none of this has anything to do with ride quality.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

I am curious why anyone would even consider custom and carbon in the same thought. 
For custom it will have to either be Ti or steel. Something that will last a lifetime.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Donn12 said:


> just curious why custom? do you have unusual measurements or are you normal proportioned and looking for better fit? I don't know if a person would benefit from a custom designed bike if they were of the usual proportions and flexibilities?


The other exception would be if the rider were extremely heavy or light. Most off the shelf is made to ride well for 140-175 pounds (that's just a ball park guess) but is just fine many pound either way outside that range too.

I can see getting a custom Ti frame even if you don't need custom just because the off the shelf selections are limited and most of the great makers are custom makers. But for carbon it makes no sense because you just get and outdated construction that's heavier than needed for more money. Not to say there aren't some great custom carbon frame out there (parlee, cyfac for example) but they cost a mint and you can get just as good off the shelf for a better price.

If you do have off the wall needs and would benefit from custom I agree that either can be made to ride like you want and the only difference is that the carbon one will be lighter.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I had not ever heard of a carbon/titanium mixed tube frame until now. I looked up Guru which I heard of the other day in the ebay broken Guru post and I looked at Seven which I have seen at the Palo Alto Store, Calif. The Seven did have a titanium/carbon mixed bike. Pretty cool. However I would have no idea if it would be a good bike for you or anyone. Almost 2 years ago I purchased a Lighthouse frame built custom. It is with Columbus Spirit OS tubing and I love the bike. I wanted a classic styled bike and fully modern and I got everything I wanted. It's awesome. However being steel it is not what you are looking towards purchasing. I do agree with a previous poster and that buying out of country for a custom frame is not necessary. Lots of great custom shops around. It is nice to go meet the builder and get fitted properly on your new super bike. Good luck.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

tihsepa said:


> I am curious why anyone would even consider custom and carbon in the same thought.
> For custom it will have to either be Ti or steel. Something that will last a lifetime.


I agree, 100%.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I can see getting a custom Ti frame even if you don't need custom just because the off the shelf selections are limited and most of the great makers are custom makers.


I really got into Ti Litespeeds mostly, or Lemond or Merckx which were also Litespeed made in the 90s into 2001. Pretty light, but really my main justification was bare, recondition-able easy with cleaning, scotch bright and HD cleaner with new decal and your frame looked new again.

But, honestly got tired on the bland looks of them, go figure.

But Custom allows for some dialing in, and Carl understands where and what to do, in my case anyway. I suspect in all cases.  Never heard otherwise over the years.

I also had a 29er he made for a few years. With few heavier tubes on my Road Strong frame in place to 'dial' the frame for my weight and goal performance wise... The Steel Powder Coated frame [59CM Top Tube] is about .1 lb heavier [like 50 grams?] than the 2001 Litespeed Classic frame [my last road Ti bike] _So if you want lighter than that, carbon seems most appropriate._

I still have a mint LS Blade, but not really germane to the discussion. My only Ti bike being the only real point, and wouldn't a carbon TT frame really do what the Blade does mostly better? 




tihsepa said:


> I am curious why anyone would even consider custom and carbon in the same thought.
> For custom it will have to either be Ti or steel. Something that will last a lifetime.


I agree Ti is really not 'necessary' in the scheme beyond if the 'want' is the main driving force. My Strong Steel powder coated frame was made in 2000. It has over 30k of use on it, and I never avoiding rain with it either. The extent of the finish wear is in the clear top powder coat where my left shoe obviously was striking and is minimal. It is still a solid 9.5 of 10 condition. I did have the the decals NOT put under the clear, and have updated the decals when Carls Art got a little more contemporary in font etc.




Robt57/Me 'just said' said:


> So if you want lighter than that carbon seems most appropriate.


Having said/typed that; I can't see going custom with carbon. There are and have been gizillions of great choices off the pegs. My best carbon bike is a 2009 Scott Addict LTD, a $7k frameset originally. I can not fathom what anything newer could offer beyond Di or hidden cables route and BB30 tech. I also have a SL4 Roubaix, frame has a lot of current and easily attainable carbon Tech right off the shelf, just saying...


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## Richard L (Jun 16, 2014)

Another titanium builder to consider is Kent Eriksen. He has won top awards at the NAHBS show for several years running. My RCR model is the nicest riding bike I've ever owned.


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## santosjep (Jul 15, 2004)

To echo the sentiment of a few posters, I'd recommend to establish a relationship with a builder. It's true, the material is just a means to an end. The initial conversations regarding your preferences (riding, aesthetics, material and etc) should serve as a guide to whether you'll need a custom frame or a stock frame. The topic of climbing would be a great start, since you mentioned you love doing that.

Another thing to consider would be customer satisfaction. How much would the builder stand by their product? I'm not talking about warranty. That's a given. Most of these builders offer a lifetime warranty. Finding a builder who is vested in your satisfaction towards the bike (purchase and usage) is an added bonus. I'm just lucky to have found local builders who stand by their products this way.

I've owned Ti bikes, alu, steel and carbon. Do I need a custom bike? Absolutely not. Recently, I took a leap of faith and took a delivery of a custom carbon CX bike that functions as an all around winter/dirt bike dialed to how I ride. I love it. Why not TI? I already had a Ti bike that I love.

Ti/Carbon/Mixed. That all depends on what floats your boat. At the end of the day, you'll need to love to ride the bike by just the mere sight of it. Find a builder.. you'll find your bike. Good luck.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

Your post title says carbon or Ti (easy to discuss) then you only mention carbon/Ti hybrid. Pick one and stick with it. I'd go with Ti. Try Moots, Lynsey, Strong, Seven or others. I love my Moots and my Lynskey.


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## BoilerMike (Feb 11, 2011)

Yes, I do have unusual musculoskeletal needs. My neck is fused such that I can't easily look up. I do not want a recumbent. I need a bike with an extremely upright posture (think 28 cm head tube), and custom is my best option.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

tihsepa said:


> I am curious why anyone would even consider custom and carbon in the same thought.
> For custom it will have to either be Ti or steel. Something that will last a lifetime.


I believe Parlee makes custom Carbon frames to spec.
Parlee Cycles - Custom

However, as has been mentioned in this thread, a lot depends on a person's needs and goals. 

Does "Custom" mean taking a stock frame and putting your parts on it? Perhaps a custom paint job? Or is it full custom with sizing to your specs (which really only matters at the extremes, large, or perhaps small frames).

-----

Oh, I see the OP does have specific custom geometry goals. One of the risks, of course, with "custom" is that it can't be tried out in advance, and may not live up to one's expectations.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

I've seen a carbon/ti bike that used ti lugs with carbon tubes for the main triangle. It was pretty sexy. I loved the look of a lugged bike and the contrast of the brushed ti lugs with naked carbon tubes. I think the guy sold it as a "production" model for a while as he was a local bike designer with some interesting concepts.

I think this was an aluminum one for his personal CX bike, orange and green being his shop's team colors.
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=e...=X&ei=0iN2VK_-HtaHsQS72oHYDg&ved=0CIEBEKIqMAo


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

Go with carbon. A custom carbon frame from Parlee will always be lighter and stiffer than Ti.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Keoki said:


> Go with carbon. A custom carbon frame from Parlee will always be lighter and stiffer than Ti.


True, if that is the Criteria, being stiffer et al...


I always lusted at the idea of a Parlee and it was on my bucket list. But the used 2009 Scott Addict LTD I procured last year IS my Parlee.


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## cnardone (Jun 28, 2014)

BoilerMike said:


> Yes, I do have unusual musculoskeletal needs. My neck is fused such that I can't easily look up. I do not want a recumbent. I need a bike with an extremely upright posture (think 28 cm head tube), and custom is my best option.


I would want whomever is building this bike to see me ON the bike. no emailed measurements. Get on a bike or retul or whatever it is, and let him see your body move. not sure where you live, or how many guys provide this service, but it would definitely make me feel a lot more comfortable in choosing a builder. 

Couple of other builders to add to the list mentioned.

Spectrum Cycles | The Perfect Bike Does Not Exist Until We Build it for You.
K. Bedford Customs


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

As a rider who also does a lot of climbing (I'm approaching a million feet for the year) I'd go with a custom carbon frame. Carbon+Ti seems like a bad idea. You get the drawbacks of both materials. Carbon can crack if hit hard. Ti can crack where the tubes are joined or manipulated. The Ti frame I had cracked at the chainstay tire clearance dent. With a carbon+Ti frame you're adding the carbon-Ti junctions as addtional failure points.

Not that these can't all be addressed to make a reasonably reliable frame. But it'll be at the cost of weight. The supposed superior ride of Ti is marketing bulldada in my experience. My carbon frames ride far better than my Ti one did.

The custom carbon builders I'd go to would be Parlee and Crumpton. Alchemy looks good but I have not seen much from owners yet. Guru has a reputation for frames which come out much heavier than claimed, and break.

I agree with the previous posters who said that unless you have unusual proportions or build you don't need custom. Want is of course different.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ericm979 said:


> As a rider who also does a lot of climbing *(I'm approaching a million feet for the year)*



If one was here with with me, they might only hear a "Gulp!"


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

BoilerMike said:


> Yes, I do have unusual musculoskeletal needs. My neck is fused such that I can't easily look up. I do not want a recumbent. I need a bike with an extremely upright posture (think 28 cm head tube), and custom is my best option.


See that's a whole other ball of wax. I would first focus on getting the appropriate geometry with fitter who has a track record with such an issue and then worry about who's going to build it for you.

Many custom builder are great at nailing geometry for people who race or even other people who want to ride more relaxed but dealing with a medical issue (for lack of a better way to phrase your situation) isn't really something they specialize in most likely. 

If you already know what geometry you need, nevermind. but if that's going to be part of the whole custom process I'd suggest who ever helps you be known for dealing with your particular issue and chances are that would be a fitter not a frame maker directly.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Keoki said:


> Go with carbon. A custom carbon frame from Parlee will always be lighter and stiffer than Ti.


Yeah, that makes alot of difference for most people. Gimme a break. This lighter blah blah, stiffer blah blah that always gets tossed around dosent mean squat for the most part. Most good custom frames will be light and stiff enough that it wont make any difference.

I have over 100 miles under my ass this week. Two days in the frozen rain and salt, fixing flats and such. In all that time I have seen one other rider. My Ti bike is light and stiff enough. My point? Get a bike you love to ride and get out there and ride it.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

tihsepa said:


> Yeah, that makes alot of difference for most people. Gimme a break. This lighter blah blah, stiffer blah blah that always gets tossed around dosent mean squat for the most part. Most good custom frames will be light and stiff enough that it wont make any difference.
> 
> I have over 100 miles under my ass this week. Two days in the frozen rain and salt, fixing flats and such. In all that time I have seen one other rider. My Ti bike is light and stiff enough. My point? Get a bike you love to ride and get out there and ride it.


If you're getting a custom frame that commands a premium price tag, why not go with the latest tech, carbon? It's going to be lighter, dampens vibrations more and it's stiffer than Ti. If I'm paying $5K for a Ti frame, it better not weight the same as a $2K frame. 

I rode over 100 miles this past weekend. It was on my 21 lb aluminum Fuji bike. What my point is... that I got some ride time and that's all that matters!


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Keoki said:


> If you're getting a custom frame that commands a premium price tag, why not go with the latest tech, carbon? It's going to be lighter, dampens vibrations more and it's stiffer than Ti. If I'm paying $5K for a Ti frame, it better not weight the same as a $2K frame.
> 
> I rode over 100 miles this past weekend. It was on my 21 lb aluminum Fuji bike. What my point is... that I got some ride time and that's all that matters!


Your 5k Ti may be custom. Your 2k carbon is not. That's the difference. 
A stiff, light and comfortable bike can be steel, carbon or Ti. I just can't see spending the time, money and effort on something as boring and disposable as a carbon frame. To each their own I guess.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

BoilerMike said:


> I will be having a custom road frame built this winter. Regarding comfort and power transfer, I am looking for some conventional wisdom (if there is such a thing) as to the pros and cons of titanium/carbon/mixed frames. I do mostly longer group rides, but I LOVE to climb.
> 
> My leading candidates are Guru, Independent Fabricators, Firefly and Seven.
> 
> Thanks!


I think if you are going custom 100% carbon the discusion begins and ends with Parlee.
For Titanium Seven cycles has two pluses in their corner, good turn-around and a huge database of prior fits from which can be invaluable in offering you the right bike. Personally I love the look of Firefly and may explore this option one day, but the wait time is considerable..close to a year I hear.
I would stay away from Indepenent after hearing stories that they have difficulty sticking to delivery schedule. Nothing more frustrating than being promised something and then hearing excuses.


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## santosjep (Jul 15, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> I think if you are going custom 100% carbon the discusion begins and ends with Parlee.
> For Titanium Seven cycles has two pluses in their corner, good turn-around and a huge database of prior fits from which can be invaluable in offering you the right bike. Personally I love the look of Firefly and may explore this option one day, but the wait time is considerable..close to a year I hear.
> I would stay away from Indepenent after hearing stories that they have difficulty sticking to delivery schedule. Nothing more frustrating than being promised something and then hearing excuses.


^^^^^^^^ What he said! I didn't want to influence the OP's choices by my personal biases and experiences with the brands I have relegated as my Go To fabricators. Parlee has wowed me several times. Their bikes converted me from a non-carbon bike rider to an avid customer and fan. That was 6 years ago. For me, SEVEN is the gold standard of Ti frames. 

To the OP, please send me a pm if you'd like to know more regarding Parlee and Seven. I'd be more than happy to share my experiences with you.

Both these fabricators have a good track record on complying with delivery times.

All the best to you.

Joe


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

santosjep said:


> ^^^^^^^^ What he said! I didn't want to influence the OP's choices by my personal biases and experiences with the brands I have relegated as my Go To fabricators. Parlee has wowed me several times. Their bikes converted me from a non-carbon bike rider to an avid customer and fan. That was 6 years ago. For me, SEVEN is the gold standard of Ti frames.
> 
> To the OP, please send me a pm if you'd like to know more regarding Parlee and Seven. I'd be more than happy to share my experiences with you.
> 
> ...


Seven is very respected and they have a complete shop. Many of the smaller custom bike builders will utilize Seven's shop for part of the build. Spectrum says so right on their website, I think Firefly has Seven doing some work on the tubes as well.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

BoilerMike said:


> I will be having a custom road frame built this winter. Regarding comfort and power transfer, I am looking for some conventional wisdom (if there is such a thing) as to the pros and cons of titanium/carbon/mixed frames. I do mostly longer group rides, but I LOVE to climb.
> 
> My leading candidates are Guru, Independent Fabricators, Firefly and Seven.
> 
> Thanks!


I don't want to sound harsh, Thanksgiving et all, but in order to get the most out of the customs you need to know what to ask for. Judging from your question you may still need a bit of homework and saddle time.

Go the custom route to get a specific handling out of your bike and specific features not available under the current marketed definition of the mass produced road racing bikes. Forget the "laterally stiff but vertically compliant" nonsense. Regarding "comfort and power transfer" I'd like to suggest asking for an 1 and a 10 and see what you get.......no, don't!
Explain to the builder how you want the bike to sync with your pedaling, where you want the flex to be and to what extent and then trust him to build the bike for you. 
Tip: for comfort look primarily into tires and wheels.

Pick the material based on your personal preference and not because of perceived performance. A competent builder can replicate most of it using the material of his specialty IF you know what to ask for and accurately describe it. 
Forget about the weight! Weight is very important for the elite athletes in the sport but for the rest of us it is mostly marketing crap targeting the folks who the first thing they do when looking at a new bike is to lift it and feel it's weight. A custom heavier bike may easily be faster than a production lighter bike if it's made to better sync with the rider's biomechanics. 

IMO, most people do not use the custom approach to its full benefit. They just end up getting a bike that fits well which is very important but merely the beginning.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

tihsepa said:


> My point? Get a bike you love to ride and get out there and ride it.



+1 If your going custom, buy what ever pulls your trigger.. IMHO, a Ti bike is sweet, I love the material properties, its durability and soft ride. The most important characteristic is fit so find a talented builder willing to work with you and pick all of the great stuff that will make it a joy to ride: Di2, nice rims, tires, bars, seat, confuser, etc. 

Post a picture after making your selection!! Best Wishes..


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## Burnette (Mar 25, 2013)

*High On Ti*

It's a great time to be a bike enthusiast. Many options out there to choose from.
For Titanium, for me, I would meet with Jim Kish of Kish bicycles because he does good work and he's close to me here in NC.
Firefly would get a call from me too, really like their rear drop outs.
Then there is Kent Eriksen. He had a titanim show bike that many of us can't stop looking at. Here are some pics of it:







Nice details on this bike:







Here is the thread on this bike:
Eriksen Road - The Paceline Forum
I'm looking at having a stainless steel biike made, but Ti is just as awesome.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

It sounds like you've been riding enough to have some idea of what you desire. 

However, don't completely discount the steel frames.

One option would be to get a basic steel frame custom fabricated to your specifications to use as a prototype. Then, once you're sure you have the geometry like you desire, get your CF or Titanium frame made to the same dimensions, and transfer your parts over (or build up a second bike).


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

I am such a titanium biaised cyclist! I ride a 1992 Kona HeiHei, with Ti seatpost, stem. Upgraded with a Rikulau Ti rigid fork and front disc brake (rear is a chic v-brake, upgraded years ago from original cantillever)

On the road? Titanium Litespeed... upgraded to a Rikulau titanium road fork! Yes, very rare and super nice. 

I am 80 kilos (185 pounds) and really, performance wise, I could go for a stiffer, lighter setup. But really, what would about a pound or two would change? 

It all about what you need. I bought peace of mind, tightening my stem to the fork steering tube if you want. And trouble free gravel road riding. 

yes I supposed some days I wish I had a colorful new frame, but I just can't justify it.

Oh! and about Guru: I'll put in a good word for them as I live nearby, visited the shop and have a few friends riding them frames (including custom praemio) and let me reassure you. They are top notch. They make everything in-house excepted for the forks (Alpha-Q they used to be?) They should be considered amongst the best manufacturer. They make everything in Laval, Québec. All carbon sheet cutting, preg, pressure molding, curing. Welding ti, al, steel. State-of-the art. Highly recommended.


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## BoilerMike (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks to you all for the comments. This is quite helpful. 

Regarding the geometry question, I currently ride a carbon road frame with a kind of homemade handlebar setup which has extensions to make it extremely upright. I have good relationships with a number of bike fitters, and one actually has a custom carbon Guru which has nearly the geometry I would look for. I rode it to evaluate the geometry and really liked the ride. This confirmed for me that I could indeed get a frame in the geometry I wanted and be comfortable riding it. Now, it's time to decide on materials and a manufacturer. Unfortunately, I have no similar titanium bike to demo, thus my post asking about the qualities of each. I will attach photos of each in case anyone is interested in them. Thanks again for all the input. 

Mike


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

BoilerMike said:


> Thanks to you all for the comments. This is quite helpful.
> 
> Now, it's time to decide on materials and a manufacturer. Unfortunately, I have no similar titanium bike to demo, thus my post asking about the qualities of each. I will attach photos of each in case anyone is interested in them. Thanks again for all the input.


The "ride quality" you will enjoy on any frame will be more greatly determined by how the designer/builder uses the materials he chooses (tube shape, size, thickness, angles, etc.), than by the native materials themselves. Carbon fiber has been mostly exploited to get stiffness at reduced weight. But that's not a given. A Ti frame can be made just as stiff, or compliant. It's really in how the materials are used and the bike constructed. A good builder can listen to what you want, what you like, and then tell you what he can do.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

BoilerMike said:


> Any reasons why (on Guru)? I demo'd one and the ride was quite nice. Feel free to direct message if you wish. Also, whom would you recommend?


A friend of mine had a Guru that developed a crack in the seat tube. They denied a warranty claim on it. The bike was not crashed or otherwise abused. Failure of them to stand behind their product would be enough for me to stay away from them.

If you are going Ti, add Moots to your list.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> A friend of mine had a Guru that developed a crack in the seat tube. They denied a warranty claim on it. The bike was not crashed or otherwise abused. Failure of them to stand behind their product would be enough for me to stay away from them.
> 
> If you are going Ti, add Moots to your list.


what is going on with Guru??  I recently posted a thread about some Ebay seller with a broken Guru. Definitely stay away from Guru until further notice.


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## Motomadman (Nov 30, 2014)

I would strongly recommend you consider the 2015 Motobecane Team Ti. I just bought one with DA 9000 and Kysyrium Elite S wheelset, and Ritchey carbon cockpit for $2999.00 through Bikes Direct. Price aside, the bike is a "rocket", as stated by my LBS owner who checked it out. It is a major carpet ride that begs to go faster. Hills seem flatter now. My average speed on my 25 mile hilly ride, has increased from 16.2 m/hr to 17.5 m/hr. The tapered head tube carves corners like a razor. The DA 9000 groupset is so sweet. I saved over $4500 from a comparable Seven, Moots, Lynsky, Lightspeed. 
The frame is double butted 3/2.5, with an OS downtube, ovalized top tube, tapered seat rubes, and a tapered head tube. With the extra $4500, I can buy a a lot of extra bike stuff. Or maybe take a trip to Italy to watch the Giro.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Motomadman said:


> I would strongly recommend you consider the 2015 Motobecane Team Ti. I just bought one with DA 9000 and Kysyrium Elite S wheelset, and Ritchey carbon cockpit for $2999.00 through Bikes Direct. Price aside, the bike is a "rocket", as stated by my LBS owner who checked it out. It is a major carpet ride that begs to go faster. Hills seem flatter now. My average speed on my 25 mile hilly ride, has increased from 16.2 m/hr to 17.5 m/hr. The tapered head tube carves corners like a razor. The DA 9000 groupset is so sweet. I saved over $4500 from a comparable Seven, Moots, Lynsky, Lightspeed.
> The frame is double butted 3/2.5, with an OS downtube, ovalized top tube, tapered seat rubes, and a tapered head tube. With the extra $4500, I can buy a a lot of extra bike stuff. Or maybe take a trip to Italy to watch the Giro.


I ordinarily would not respond to such a planted post, but I do know someone who went this route. As his cycling improved the shortcomings in this bikes design readily became apparent. Within a year he sold it and went Parlee. There's just no comparison between what a badge slapped Motobecane can do versus a Firefly, Seven, Erikson or Bedford.

Now in response to the Moots vote. There are actually dozens of builders that do a great job with Titanium. Whether you go with Moots or Seven or Passoni etc is a question of looks, feeling comfortable with the builder and maybe even location if you are able to visit the factory etc. I don't think you are going to see anyone argue that a Bedford is really universally better" than an Erikson or Firefly but rather you appreciated the looks or that you had a better connection to the designer you were working with etc

And working with a Bedford you will get geometry and tube selection appropriate for the rider and what is being asked for, something not possible with a low budget Bikes Direct offering who is touting price as their selling point.


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## Motomadman (Nov 30, 2014)

"Planted post." "Badge slapped Motobecane." Let me clue you in. The owner of the LBS has a Moots and Litespeed and he said he would rather have my Motobecane Team Ti than either of them. I am a former competitive cyclists. I know, 17.2 is slow, but a I am 57 years old and am the 1982 Mississippi Senior Men's RR Champion. I have had several pro bikes and this I can promise you is a pro level bike. Response?


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

It's pretty obvious your 'post' was triggered by the word titanium in the title, and you didn't actually read the thread. So yeah, you look like yet another BD shill.


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## Motomadman (Nov 30, 2014)

Yeah, that's right I responded to the topic of titanium because I have a sub sixteen pound, sub compact, silky, billy goat rocket. The TIG welds are stacks of dimes flawless. You are just ignorant of the facts. The 9000 DA retails alone for $2500. Kysyrium Elite S wheelset, Ritchey carbon cockpit. You are just mad because I did my homework and you didn't.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

and did you bother to read the thread? The guy NEEDS a custom bike with specific geometry... see post #38 for what he's looking for...


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

mik_git said:


> and did you bother to read the thread? The guy NEEDS a custom bike with specific geometry... see post #38 for what he's looking for...


The post had a lot of marketing type points that raised red flags
local bike shop preferring internet bikes over his own product
1.5'ish mph speed gain
mention of bikes direct
off topic
1st post ever
how much he saved
there' more...

now about bikes direct something to keep in mind for those going this route, while they do tell you what you're getting in advance, they tend to cut corners on those accessories the majority of their clientele may not be savvy about such as an fsa head set in place of a crane creek or chris king. On many models advertised as Dura Ace or Ultegra a read in the fine print show some components are from a lower line. And on most Titanium bikes a threaded bottom bracket is still the dominant technology thank g-d which is not going to be the case here. Now as far as the welds go, suggesting that more care and attention are going into a bikes direct weld than what one gets with Moots, Seven or Firefly doesn't match up with the feedback on this and other forums such as velocipede salon. The products could not be more different and the op was clearly not looking this route, so the BD plug was very off topic another red flag.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

Motomadman said:


> Yeah, that's right I responded to the topic of titanium because I have a sub sixteen pound, sub compact, silky, billy goat rocket. The TIG welds are stacks of dimes flawless. You are just ignorant of the facts. The 9000 DA retails alone for $2500. Kysyrium Elite S wheelset, Ritchey carbon cockpit. You are just mad because I did my homework and you didn't.


I like bikes direct. I bought a fat bike from them for beach rides for $800 and it is a great deal. I could have spent double or more but I am sure the sand and salt will destroy this much sooner than a normal use bike. I also love bikes and buying bikes and one day I will probably buy a Ti bike. You just bought a bike and you are excited about it and that is good. your bike is a great deal for $2999. but don't be so hyper about it. this guy needs a custom bike. maybe the majority of ti bikes are sold as milestone bikes. Ti is a very small market. people that buy them really appreciate them and I would guess that the majority of Ti bike sold are quite a bit more expensive than $3000. I would personally rather spend the extra money for a seven, moots or lynskey.


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## Motomadman (Nov 30, 2014)

Have fun throwing your money away.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

dude, your the one throwing your money away, you could have gotten an ultegra version for $1100 less, and everyone knows that ultegra is a better buy, does the same thing as DA and is $$$ cheaper with only a tiny weight penalty... only chumps by DA...

Anyway back on topic, the guy needs a custom frame, how is your Motobecane going to help him there? He could buy it then still have to use his funky stem/bar arangement to make it work...or get a custom frame made. I know which I'd go for, custom.

As to the original question, don't know much about custom, although I am a fan of all the origianlly listed cmpanies, I get the felling (maybe) that the OP lieks Guru, with all the potential of frame failures (whether its is that bad or not) that everyone is concerned about with the super light carbon frames, what about a titanium Guru?


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

Motomadman said:


> Have fun throwing your money away.


You are not wrong, Sir! I do sometimes enjoy getting something that is the absolute best of it's kind available. Not the best for the money, but THE BEST. I am aware that this is not always the smartest thing to do but I have learned what to spend money on and what not to. I have also learned that instead of getting something that costs $4000 and getting something I like, I am better off spending $5500 and getting what I REALLY LIKE. 

I don't think you need to be judgmental. worth it to you and worth it to me are different things. if you saw what I have spent on cycling in three years you would most likely be ill. Some people may be way more into cycling than you may be. you have a new bike and it is nice. ride it a lot and relax


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Motomadman said:


> Yeah, that's right I responded to the topic of titanium because I have a sub sixteen pound, sub compact, silky, billy goat rocket. The TIG welds are stacks of dimes flawless. You are just ignorant of the facts. The 9000 DA retails alone for $2500. Kysyrium Elite S wheelset, Ritchey carbon cockpit. You are just mad because I did my homework and you didn't.


So you admit you're just shilling without paying attention to what TS needs. Buyer's remorse must've addled your senses.


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## BoilerMike (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks for the diversion guys, but it's not really helping me (OP). Please get a room. A different room. Thanks.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

BoilerMike said:


> Thanks for the diversion guys, but it's not really helping me (OP). Please get a room. A different room. Thanks.


Read the first 41 posts. Enjoy the process and go with the builder that you can best communicate with, preferably you'll be talking to the welder. The material itself isn't or shouldn't be the sole determining factor. If it was me I'd go Ti just cause I like the look of metal tubes. But I like my carbon bike.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

kiwisimon said:


> Read the first 41 posts. Enjoy the process and go with the builder that you can best communicate with, preferably you'll be talking to the welder. The material itself isn't or shouldn't be the sole determining factor. If it was me I'd go Ti just cause I like the look of metal tubes. But I like my carbon bike.


I would not be so quick to dismiss the Titanium/Carbon hybrid's coming out of Firefly and others in that league. These are some nice bikes, but they are step-up in price.


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

I'm sure this thread may be dead by now, but for what its worth, I have a couple of ti bikes, a spine bike, a few steel in 853 and cromo, and one CF disc Volagi. I like to build, ride, collect. out of all of the rides, I prefer the steel for the consistency and road sound and feel ------------- in short, its light (853 Lemond Zurich) with the ultegra 6700 equip, and very quiet. never knew what anyone meant by "rides like buttah" until I rode 853.

but my choice for all around amazing day long riding with climbs and decents, road feel, comfort and after ride feel is the Quiring Ti with Ultegra. tall headtube, combined with a great set of Ksyerium wheels and my specific gearing ratio, I love it.

custom just means pick your material and build it EXACTLY the size in top tube and angles that appear to work well. it will all be adjustable as time goes on in stem and seat position, bar/shifter position anyway.

bottem line: any of the 3 materials can be made light enough, all three made to be comfortable enough, it comes down to longevity and connection to the bike----------which is apparent to many here, everyone is different. TI, if you can afford it, because you can make it any color you want if you don't want it raw.

don't get me wrong, I have 2 volagis, the steel and CF with disc brakes, love the steel version the most for all of the steel reasons. its a bit heavier, not as quick, but very versatile. the CF is comfortable and fast------------but I've personally never had the connection to it I do with the others, although its' the nicest CF ride I've been on.

I have em all, had many others, still would prefer a Ti if I had to pick and get rid of them all.

my 2c worth, really 5$ worth with inflation, interest and tax.

and the rest of you that are pissing and showing your "thing" with how much you spend and all of that, get out and ride. put you all on a '72 Peugeot px10 and we'll see who's really a rider. HA!!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

trumpetbiker said:


> custom just means pick your material and build it EXACTLY the size in top tube and angles that appear to work well.


Baulk! "Just means"? 

This is a gross generalization at a minimum IMO. 

Obviously the builder picking purpose specific tube lengths and angles is the case with custom. 

But MORE IMPORTANTLY he chooses tube diameter shape and butts [or lack of] from experience that suite the rider's needs.

Not to mention the experience to know what that will be regardless of what the buyer is saying and thinks he needs. And to sort through perhaps some driving forces that buyer may have from magazine disease [now forum disease]. 

To have them wind up with something the builder will probably warranty for life. And know "AGAIN, FROM EXPERIENCE" will still be viable on all levels [sans style perhaps] well into the future of that stressed member's functional life/use.

Same applies for all materials used, carbon obviously having deeper dialing with layups controlled beyond what specific lengths of pre manufactured tubing may offer without overbuilding. Read=less weight!

No I am not a builder, but own a custom made frame made 15 years ago. Have not felt the need to repeat the process mainly due to expense. And I am older and slower than 15 years ago and priorities are different on all levels for me now.


Going to add this: What I learned about what constitutes fit for me from the process was probably with the price of admission. Probably not hard to believe Carl Strong brought more to the table than what I thought I needed. 

The builder sorts though your wants and makes sure you still get what you need.  Good ones anyway...


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

@robt57-

all true. many of us have dealt with the trial and error approach, as well as the fitted approach. all of that aside and equal, it all comes down to feel--------when the fit is correct. thats the main reason for this custom fit in the first place.

although its possible by dialing in "all of the layers" in cf to get the perfect fit and compliance, a rider may hate the feel, sound and vibe of the cf frame but love the way it fits and rides. in my case, I bought off the rack for the fit and ride characteristics with my CF, as well as the discs. but I've never been able to enjoy the sound or vibe of the CF. every CF sound and vibe is similar to me, so its a personal choice. still like the bike, but prefer other materials.

but thats the case with any material. the "fit" involves the body triangle to the bike triangle, the relationship to the 3 main points are the most important for the "fit". the orig poster found the fit in the one bike he tried, and wanted to know which material would be most appropriate from other's experiences. 

I'm pretty aware of the particulars associated with the engineering process, ie, stress, flex, strength to weight ratio and other items associated with what custom can mean.

obviously, your experience, rob, to get the CF "dialed in" worked well 15 yrs ago, but not as much for now. pretty common if what you had built was not as flexy/compliant and put you in a more aggressive position for a younger body. as you get older, your body changes and may need something more forgiving. just ask greg lemond.

weight will be negligible, given the orig poster's riding position, he will get the comfort he needs from the geometry, and either CF or Ti will WORK well ------------ it will come down to his connection to the machine as he rides, and feel and sound. he knows what CF feels like, he needs to ride Ti to feel and hear. 

as recreational riders(fondos, centuries, multi day rides, workouts) our perception of our ride is greatly effected by our physical connection, road feel, frame and hardware sounds, and weight we have to push/pull/stop. 1/2 of it is a mental connect to the bike, based on these elements. racers and tourists require a whole diff type of ride from the rest of us.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Great post and points IMO.

For me as a bigger more powerful built rider. A lot if what I had ridden previously before the custom was usually BB issues. Even ghost shifting under power. Carls choice of tubes used on that frame fixed all that for me. And I still ride that frame, albeit as a SS/ENO. But just by using an AME [initial fork] to an HSC3 for less race like use brought a lot of compliance. It now has a steel fork. It is short and stout though, and I seem to have settled into Roubiax geom for staying on the bike for hours and hours. So that seem true too.

But that does not mean what is/was right for me would be right for the OP. But, there was a lot of value with the custom process before during and still after 15 years too. I also had some geometry challenges, bikes being too tall when long enough, that alone reason for custom perhaps. But The bars 15 years later and a few semi serious injuries later are 2" higher than the nose bleed drop of 15 years ago. I still like getting that aero low low low, but not the residual not being able to get back to that shape and position. I may still, but as long as I keep rolling at this point I am happy.... off to the Computrainer, Ciao


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## xml-2277 (Dec 31, 2014)

It sounds like you've been riding enough to have some idea of what you desire. 

However, don't completely discount the steel frames.

One option would be to get a basic steel frame custom fabricated to your specifications to use as a prototype. Then, once you're sure you have the geometry like you desire, get your CF or Titanium frame made to the same dimensions, and transfer your parts over (or build up a second bike)


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## berserk87 (Jul 24, 2014)

mik_git said:


> dude, your the one throwing your money away, you could have gotten an ultegra version for $1100 less, and everyone knows that ultegra is a better buy, does the same thing as DA and is $$$ cheaper with only a tiny weight penalty... only chumps by DA...


I hear that's Shimano's new marketing campaign: "only chumps by DA".


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

berserk87 said:


> I hear that's Shimano's new marketing campaign: "only chumps by DA".


I do find the infatuation with the highest end parts as a diversion from what we are out there for. what was that again? oh yeah, riding, not staring. BUT, if someone likes to know they have the best, that's their prerogative. staring at artwork is fun as well.

there is a good article in the last Bicycling mag on Pagoretti, his approach to building frames. and I believe he looks at the whole "parts and pieces, materials" as secondary, the connection to the bike as sort of a metaphysical thing. 

once the dims are right, the material right, the color/graphics and tyres right, its you and the bike against the road and the world----how does it feel? we talk of CF vs Steel vs Ti vs(gulp) AL, and everyone has a very different idea of what that relationship really is.

I've got most of my rides in ultegra, 6500 - 6700, two with 7900 DA parts. I get my parts used through ebay and CL, so I pay a relative small amount, comparatively, for them. the feel is virtually the same for the newer of both ---------- the only item difference being the sti shifters being flatter on the newer to the older. but year to year, they feel about the same.

if a badge is important to you, spend the money --------- what ever it takes to feel great about getting out and riding, which none of us really does as much as we'd really like.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Motomadman said:


> The 9000 DA retails alone for $2500.


On what planet? The whole group is $1400 at Merlin and there was a further 10% off that.


> Kysyrium Elite S wheelset


No thanks.


> You are just mad because I am a troll and post nonsense.


That's better.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

trumpetbiker said:


> I do find the infatuation with the highest end parts as a diversion from what we are out there for. what was that again? oh yeah, riding, not staring. BUT, if someone likes to know they have the best, that's their prerogative. staring at artwork is fun as well.


I lean DA, but not a snob about it. You may see an Ultegra crank or calipers, front DR on a DA bike of mine. But I am solidly stuck in 10 Speed mode and will be for a while. And I only got up to 10 speed in 2011 honestly. Still have some 8 & 9 speed sleds that I ride as well.

I say if you can afford it, you deserve to have it if that is what you want.

Some folks get a positive psychological effect from a 14 lb $10K+ bike.

Perception being everything and all.  Do it, but you may be a poser, but if that does not take from your satisfaction, power to you I say. 

I got an 11 speed rear DR recently before reading it will only do 11 speed indexed. I got to sell it and get it outta here before the infection takes... But I got a lot of nice 10 speed only wheels, if you know what I mean.


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

robt57 said:


> I lean DA, but not a snob about it. You may see an Ultegra crank or calipers, front DR on a DA bike of mine. But I am solidly stuck in 10 Speed mode and will be for a while. And I only got up to 10 speed in 2011 honestly. Still have some 8 & 9 speed sleds that I ride as well.
> 
> I say if you can afford it, you deserve to have it if that is what you want.
> 
> ...


I do know what you mean! I've got mostly 10spd. friends have 11spd, love them. I'm good with 10 and it would cost too much to convert over on more than one bike. I like having interchangeable wheelsets, cassettes.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Other than maybe allowing a rider to better optimize cadence, ever so slightly, the extra gear or two holds little value. Ten gears is more than plenty. Even nine is fine. The important thing is whether the gears shift smoothly and easily.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> Other than maybe allowing a rider to better optimize cadence, ever so slightly, the extra gear or two holds little value. Ten gears is more than plenty. Even nine is fine. The important thing is whether the gears shift smoothly and easily.


More cogs almost always means closer ratios. Less holes between so to speak. So I am going to respectfully less than agree with this. But will say it matter more to me when riding faster/longer, bringing that little value to my energy reserves and recovery ability on the bike. So am I really in disagreement with you?  Grey area? Some days/rides is it a lot darker grey for me is all I gotta say.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

No problem. If you feel you need 11 gears more power to you. I have two bikes with Ultegra, 6500 & 6800. I'm ok with less gears, but as the saying goes, 'that is why restaurants have menus'


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## BoilerMike (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks robt and trumpet. Thread is not dead. Getting first design specs from Seven tomorrow. Will do the 622 or Elium.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> No problem. If you feel you need 11 gears more power to you. I have two bikes with Ultegra, 6500 & 6800. I'm ok with less gears, but as the saying goes, 'that is why restaurants have menus'



Just making the point for the extra cog. It is really the only reason I would want 11S at this point. 

But I have too many 10 speed only wheels, two 7800 Bikes, a 6700 bike, and a 105 bike. Not to mention two DA bar-con 10 speed bikes. I am married to 10 speed for the duration actually.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> On what planet? The whole group is $1400 at Merlin and there was a further 10% off that.
> 
> No thanks.
> 
> That's better.


Motoshill. Obviously. For Bikes Direct or Motobecane... Doesn't matter. Trolls and Sockpuppets have a big leg up on outright shills. True bottom feeders.


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

glad boilermike is keeping us posted on what he ends up doing, this is like Christmas. I like it when others get what they want!

steel is fantastic. I've got 2 classic 01 and 02 853 lemonds with perfect finish and updated to 6700. fantastic rides.

my current favorite for all around ------------ and it was my Ragbrai ride last year, is my Volagi Viaje, set up with Hy/Rd and ultegra/durace mix. cromo frame built to just around 20lbs and slightly below. the other 853's are built to 17-18 lbs, and none are as light as the two titaniums or CF Volagi, but I don't have a rough time keeping up with anyone on most rides. 

I still call Ti the rich man's steel, they are very similar and depending on the size you ride, one person's frame at 51 will ride significantly diff than another's at 61cm. thats where Robt57 is right on as far as dialing in the layers on CF, which is possible with a CF and possibly not with a tig welded ti or steel. am I correct on this?


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## Motomadman (Nov 30, 2014)

At the risk of sounding frugal, save $7000 and get the 20 15 Motobecane Team Ti Le Champion with full DA 9000 11 speed, Kysyrium Elite wheelset, and Ritchey cockpit for $2999! My 51 cm weighed 16.1 lbs without pedals. The tapered head tube, various sizes and shape tubing and semi compact geometry makes this bike a silky smooth, mountain goat rocket! I have friends with Litespeed and Moots. They said that they would rather have mine. Just a thought. I am a 57 year old, 30 year masters racer.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Ah so you ARE a spam bot, just repeating posts...


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## Motomadman (Nov 30, 2014)

2015 Motobecane Team Ti Le Champion at Bikes Direct.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Motomadman said:


> 2015 Motobecane Team Ti Le Champion at Bikes Direct.


Spammer.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Motomadman said:


> At the risk of sounding frugal, save $7000 and get the 20 15 Motobecane Team Ti Le Champion with full DA 9000 11 speed, Kysyrium Elite wheelset, and Ritchey cockpit for $2999! My 51 cm weighed 16.1 lbs without pedals. The tapered head tube, various sizes and shape tubing and semi compact geometry makes this bike a silky smooth, mountain goat rocket! I have friends with Litespeed and Moots. They said that they would rather have mine. Just a thought. I am a 57 year old, 30 year masters racer.


Tell, your buddy with the Moots to shoot me a PM. I will gladly supply him with any Bikes Direct bike for his Moots providing it's not trashed. 

I really doubt they would rather have yours.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

tihsepa said:


> Tell, your buddy with the Moots to shoot me a PM. I will gladly supply him with any Bikes Direct bike for his Moots providing it's not trashed.
> 
> I really doubt they would rather have yours.


If the Moots isn't your size, I'll be the second on that.

What a joke.


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## Motomadman (Nov 30, 2014)

No, just an extremely satisfied Motobecane Team Ti Le Champion owner. My LBS owner was so impressed he said it was better than his Moots and Litespeed. Moron.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

And yet still, how will buying a BD bike help the OP and his need for specific custom geometry? Has the elation from riding your bike addled you witts so that you can't even comprehend what is going on in the thread?


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

Motomadman said:


> No, just an extremely satisfied Motobecane Team Ti Le Champion owner. My LBS owner was so impressed he said it was better than his Moots and Litespeed. Moron.


let me see if I have this correct, Motomadman, if the orig poster gets a stock motobecane ti supposedly in "his" size yet it doesn't come close t fitting his orignally posted needs and requirements, its still HIS best buy?

motomadman, how does this help HIM ---------- he's not stupid...he already knows what will fit, now wants the real bike, not made by motobecane. his question had to do with TI or CF.

one size doesn't fit all, nor does one brand --------- no matter how cheap. and I do mean "cheap" in the craftsmanship way. there really is a difference between Stickley and a Flexsteel craftsman rocker. the same holds true for bike frames. if you can't see or experience the difference, then you aren't really that into it.

fit first, motomadman, then material. fit. fit. fit...then feel...THEN cost. and cost is related to availability. need to compare apples to apples. look at the ride he tried that worked, then look at the motobecane. they don't make it. period. end of your argument.


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## BoilerMike (Feb 11, 2011)

Motomadman and sparring partners, please cease and desist.
Get your own thread. 

Thanks,
OP


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

BoilerMike - just wondering what you chose?
I'm not plugging Ti or CF, I own both and would be hard pressed to choose between them. My last 3 bikes were custom, and I just wanted to 2nd the earlier posts about selecting a builder that you have a chance to talk to in person. And let him observe you riding your current bike.

Good luck - update us with your decision.


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## BoilerMike (Feb 11, 2011)

All-
After much thought and learning, I decided to build a Seven Elium SLX, a Ti/carbon bike with Ti lugs, down tube, and chain stays, and carbon remainder. 
Seven Cycles | Elium SLX

We did several fit iterations, and finalized things last week. It's been ordered. Of course, after a two month decision process, I want my bike immediately! 

Thanks to all who contributed to the process. Pics in a couple months. 

Mike


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Bump @boilermike. Pics yet?


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