# Landis Aerodynamic?



## Colorider-X (Feb 21, 2006)

I'm a retired elite cyclist and now I'm coaching some young elite cyclists. My question is regarding Floyd Landis. I'm a believer in Landis aerodynamic position but my opinion is base on visual rather than physic fact. This year he improved position by placing his elbow little closer together alowing the air to slice around him. To set an example, Landis style is very similar to Super G skier. If the skier expose his chest the air will drag the skier. If the cyclist expose his chest, don't you think there's similar affect will occur to the cyclist like the skier? I have some wind tunnel experience that taught me a lot. I've spoken to to few coaches and got their adviced but interested in your experience imputs. Thanks in advance.


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## Pistard (Feb 28, 2005)

*Old skool...*

I'm not so sure it's his elbows being closer as it is his hands raised that deflects the air around his chest. This is an old style (early '90s) position.... don't know why they changed to having the forearms more flat, but I'm sure I read in these forums that it was due to riders having back problems... to the extent that the old position is now banned. Which then begs the question is his postion legal? Anyone?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

I also think his position is superior. It's close to the old and now outlawed "superman position" which has a similar effect in reducing chest exposure.

I don't know how effective it would be with younger cyclists though. Floyd has honed his ability to sit so far forward on the saddle, giving him a very steep effective seat angle, which allows him to drop his upper body that close to the handlebars. Check out this photo from yesterday's TT.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/feb06/california06/?id=california063/tourca_s3_0686_N

Silas


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## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

The old superman position (or the ealier fully tucked position) seems to aim at making the torso and arms one integrated piece aerodynamically. 

However Floyd's arms seem to create more turbulance around the arms. Now if you could add a fairing around the arms that would be a different matter. 

I suppose some numbers in the wind tunnel will be most useful.

<img src=https://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july24/images/score05.jpg>
<img src=https://www.ufsm.br/gepec/obree.jpg>


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Colorider-X said:


> I'm a retired elite cyclist and now I'm coaching some young elite cyclists. My question is regarding Floyd Landis. I'm a believer in Landis aerodynamic position but my opinion is base on visual rather than physic fact. This year he improved position by placing his elbow little closer together alowing the air to slice around him. To set an example, Landis style is very similar to Super G skier. If the skier expose his chest the air will drag the skier. If the cyclist expose his chest, don't you think there's similar affect will occur to the cyclist like the skier? I have some wind tunnel experience that taught me a lot. I've spoken to to few coaches and got their adviced but interested in your experience imputs. Thanks in advance.


I guess the litmus test will be how many guys are using that position by the time the TT worlds roll around. I can guarantee there are people experimenting as we speak.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

SilasCL said:


> I also think his position is superior. It's close to the old and now outlawed "superman position" which has a similar effect in reducing chest exposure.
> 
> I don't know how effective it would be with younger cyclists though. Floyd has honed his ability to sit so far forward on the saddle, giving him a very steep effective seat angle, which allows him to drop his upper body that close to the handlebars. Check out this photo from yesterday's TT.
> 
> ...



I heard that Floyd had just finished wind tunnel tests only recently and I'm sure the position came of those trials. I think it's an interesting change but might be one that works for Floyd and maybe not so many others. There's always the trade off of aerodynamics and the rider's ability to breathe and develop power in those positions. But I noticed Floyd squirming a few times while I was watching this morning. Might not be so comfortable for him either. His elbows are really closed in. That's got to make control even more difficult. Looked like his equipment needs tweaking as well. The bladed flats of his bars are basically 45 degrees - that can't be ideal.

Still it seems to work.


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## Colorider-X (Feb 21, 2006)

SilasCL Floyd has honed his ability to sit so far forward on the saddle said:


> I agree which is why I'm studying his position. During my wind tunnel experience, we never experimented this position. I can't afford the wind tunnel which is another reason why I'm asking here. Look how far foward he is. His head is above the front hub


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## euro-trash (May 1, 2004)

Colorider-X said:


> I agree which is why I'm studying his position. During my wind tunnel experience, we never experimented this position. I can't afford the wind tunnel which is another reason why I'm asking here. Look how far foward he is. His head is above the front hub


I've heard of some guys who made their own wind tunnel in a hallway using a fan and dry ice. I know it sure isn't scientific, and I don't know whether you could actually tell by sight whether drag is reduced, but it sounds like a neat project. Dry ice is toxic though, so maybe some other smoke creator should be used.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

euro-trash said:


> Dry ice is toxic though, so maybe some other smoke creator should be used.


It is? I had better stop breathing now.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Here's a quote from Josh at Zipp, http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=726722;search_string=search_string;guest=6686589#726722

"I was just in the wind tunnel with him last week, and we were determined to get those bars flat, but for whatever reason this just works for him. I have to say that in the last 6 years I've been to like 20 tunnel tests of both pro and amateur athletes, roadies and triathletes, and this is the only time I've ever seen a bar position like this work for anybody. ..."

I think two important points are 1) just because the position works for Landis (subject to all the UCI constraints), there's no reason to think it will work for someone else, and 2) that it took a look at the actual drag data to show that position works for him. You often can't tell by examining pictures if one position is better or worse than another.


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## dogmeat (Sep 26, 2005)

*Seminar by PowerTap...*

I attended a winter seminar by the PowerTap guys. They were telling about what Flyod was doing last year. Basically, Floyd and his trainer would go on a route they knew, crank it out at his power level, then check his time. Or something like that. I mean, they didn't have a huge budget, but Floyd got a position he liked.

Well, he's got a bigger budget now, so obviously they are going to check it out. Looks like the new position passed the tunnel test- it sure passed the real world test.

Go Floyd!


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## wheel_suker (Feb 3, 2005)

I'm seem to remember Jan Ulrich being responsible for the current phase of down arm positioning after he beat Lance in the TT at the 2003 Tour. Then even Armstrong gravitated towards it. Never made sense to me being an expert at drafting  .


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## mrt10x (Aug 10, 2005)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> It is? I had better stop breathing now.


Dry Ice is toxic if it reaches a concentration above 5%. It is frozen carbon dioxide.. I mean it could kill you via asphyxiation i guess but a 5% level would be hard to achieve, especially given that you would be using a fan to move it past a subject.
linky 
2ndlinky


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## dws5b (Oct 20, 2005)

Maybe the 45° angle of his bars creates lift which then causes the front wheel to have less rolling resistance! One thing is for sure it looks goofy.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2006)

mrt10x said:


> Dry Ice is toxic if it reaches a concentration above 5%. It is frozen carbon dioxide.. I mean it could kill you via asphyxiation i guess but a 5% level would be hard to achieve, especially given that you would be using a fan to move it past a subject.
> linky
> 2ndlinky


Hmm, 5% seems too low to be toxic - I'd believe it if it were carbon monoxide.


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## capt_phun (Jun 14, 2004)

Landis reminds me of an old Kid Rock. Ba wit da ba de bang a bang diggy.....


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## grampy bone (Feb 9, 2005)

Doesn't it mostly come down to frontal exposed surface area? Floyd's position seems to have a lot of area exposed with the arms. Check out Dave Z's position. Arms straight, back straight, he has the best aero position in my opinion. It seems to pay off too. 

Whether you are far forward, or behind the front axel shouldn't matter much as far as drag goes. It is more of a comfort & breathing thing to me. I like further forward because it opens my diaphram up for easier breathing, and plus further forward helps with my lack of flexability.


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

grampy bone said:


> Doesn't it mostly come down to frontal exposed surface area? Floyd's position seems to have a lot of area exposed with the arms. Check out Dave Z's position. Arms straight, back straight, he has the best aero position in my opinion. It seems to pay off too.
> 
> Whether you are far forward, or behind the front axel shouldn't matter much as far as drag goes. It is more of a comfort & breathing thing to me. I like further forward because it opens my diaphram up for easier breathing, and plus further forward helps with my lack of flexability.






















Here we have landis and DZ, personally, landis looks faster, His chest, and part of his head is sheilded by his hands, where as DZ's position is much more wide open.

As for the sitting forward, etc, from what I understand it allows the rider to assume a position closer to the one they normally ride and train in, on a standard bike, as their TT bikes have to meet the UCI regs. Note that both DZ and Landis do this.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Here's my comments from the peanut gallery:

- Landis' TT win is earth-shaking. I don't think anyone expected him to win. His TT position was generally considered as a mere oddity. No one else used it, not even his team mates. Now, it will be studied, copied and used.

- Landis used this position in TDF 2005 with good results. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tour05/?id=tour051/cycling-tdf2005-itt-land-55) It seems that in Tour of Ca, he has refined it a bit by putting his elbows closer together and pointing his arms higher.

- In a recent interview, Landis said that many doubted his TT positition. He went to the wind tunnel and verified that his position is superior.

- There are three things to note about Landis position. His arms are pointed upwards. His elbows are close together. He sits very forward on the saddle and his torso is very far forward on the bike.

- Zabriskie is perhaps the finest TT rider in the world today. Floyd was behind Zabriskie's pace after the initial climb (20-30 seconds). In the flat roads, which is Zabriskie's strength, Landis blew him away. Landis blew everyone away.

- Landis theories have been confirmed and his position will now be copied. However, his position will take time to get used to. It could take months or years to get used to the three key points mentioned above. Locking the elbows together can constrict breathing and can make the bike difficult to control.

So these are my snide comments. Feel free to correct inaccuracies.

Floyd is a good man. He's all dash, no flash. Down with Lance for treating Floyd like dirt last year.

francois


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## grampy bone (Feb 9, 2005)

I think we also have to figure in the time of the year. Some of the riders in this race plan on peaking in July (yeah, Landis too!). Having said that, I don't feel that Dave Z held back at all in the TT, he was just not in top form. Its a long season and there is a lot of time for people to get into form. 

I really like Landis and think it would be hilarious if there are a bunch of people who show up in July with his TT position.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

Sintesi said:


> His elbows are really closed in. That's got to make control even more difficult..


He remained in the aero postion on the tricky decents where others got off the bars so it didn't affect his bike handling ability.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

grampy bone said:


> I think we also have to figure in the time of the year. Some of the riders in this race plan on peaking in July (yeah, Landis too!). Having said that, I don't feel that Dave Z held back at all in the TT, he was just not in top form. Its a long season and there is a lot of time for people to get into form.
> 
> I really like Landis and think it would be hilarious if there are a bunch of people who show up in July with his TT position.



Yes the early season conditioning is the wildcard here. It looks like all the US Pros are taking this race very seriously though.

Yes, I'm pretty sure this position will be copied by July. The peloton is after all is a big bandwagon. 

fc


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

dagger said:


> He remained in the aero postion on the tricky decents where others got off the bars so it didn't affect his bike handling ability.


Good to hear.I'm sure he's spent a lot of time on this position and has learned how to control bike. He's used this position since the 2005 TDF.

It is more difficult though. Heck descending on aero bars scares me too.

As folks copy his position, I think they'll have a har time with putting their elbows together and will need a lot of miles to get used to it. It seems to constrict breathing a bit too.

francois


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## crossdude (Jan 28, 2005)

I was watching the 90 tour while I was on the trainer, and back then every body had there bar tilted up on the TT bikes, but they all had 650c front wheel and a ton of risers under there arm rest. But if you look at were their arms are, there in the same place as now with the forearms horizontal. Go find a copy it kind of interesting to see how much the same it is. 
Dan…


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2006)

dagger said:


> He remained in the aero postion on the tricky decents where others got off the bars so it didn't affect his bike handling ability.


Floyd did mention something about it not being that safe. That position has such a short effective lever arm for applying steering torque. Lucky there are no frost heaves in California


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

I watched the prologue TT today on OLN, and the one thing I noticed that nobody else has mentioned is the size difference of FL and DZ. If DZ tried to adopt Landis' aero position, it would make his frontal area increase based simply on the fact that he is taller. The position works for FL because he's a smaller rider. If you compare those two pics, you can see that both of their heads are at a similar height, (so they have the same frontal area) but FL is doing a better job of blocking the wind from his chest. It's easy for me to see that FL has found an aero position that works for him, but it doesn't mean that it should be adopted en masse by the peloton. I think if DZ tried to ride in this position, that he'd be slower. 
Landis was probably watching a triathlon and suddenly, a lightbulb lit up.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

These drawings with the airflow are bogus explanation of a complex problem that cannot be solved without empirical data. Landis's position is exactly like the position favored by triathletes in the early nineties. Testing has shown it is optimal for him, but that doesn't mean DZ would be better off using praying mantis style TT kung fu. 

I have attached an airflow diagram that is equally scientific as the others--maybe even moreso.


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## wasfast (Feb 3, 2004)

euro-trash said:


> I've heard of some guys who made their own wind tunnel in a hallway using a fan and dry ice. I know it sure isn't scientific, and I don't know whether you could actually tell by sight whether drag is reduced, but it sounds like a neat project. Dry ice is toxic though, so maybe some other smoke creator should be used.


You can rent smoke machines from any stage lighting rental company. The mixture isn't recommended for heavy breathing but won't bother you for moderate periods of time. It even comes in different flavors of smell


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> These drawings with the airflow are bogus explanation of a complex problem that cannot be solved without empirical data. Landis's position is exactly like the position favored by triathletes in the early nineties. Testing has shown it is optimal for him, but that doesn't mean DZ would be better off using praying mantis style TT kung fu.
> 
> I have attached an airflow diagram that is equally scientific as the others--maybe even moreso.


Landis' position reminds me of Indurain's position in the early- to mid-90s. Higher armrests, short reach, sometimes with the handrests higher than the seat. Now, why was that banned again? ;-)


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## Antonio_B (Dec 9, 2005)

Apologies of this is redundant, but there's a really great article on the Competitive Cyclist website about Floyd and testing in the wind tunnel in San Diego. An excellent article:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=WHATS_NEW


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*What I can't wait for...*



Antonio_B said:


> Apologies of this is redundant, but there's a really great article on the Competitive Cyclist website about Floyd and testing in the wind tunnel in San Diego. An excellent article:
> 
> http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=WHATS_NEW


What I can't wait for though is for the local Freds to try out this position on their "TT" bikes during the local group rides on the weekends. When this position starts to show up on the group rides, be cautious of the person who's riding like that.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

*Paris-Nice Prologue....*

For what its worth, here are some pics of Landis' TT rig I snapped yesterday at the Paris-Nice Prologue... his armrests are freakishly close to each other! Oh, and I also noted the little custom rear derailleur tweaker Phonak mounted on the shifters...


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## Noël1 (Mar 2, 2006)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> These drawings with the airflow are bogus explanation of a complex problem that cannot be solved without empirical data. Landis's position is exactly like the position favored by triathletes in the early nineties. Testing has shown it is optimal for him, but that doesn't mean DZ would be better off using praying mantis style TT kung fu.
> 
> I have attached an airflow diagram that is equally scientific as the others--maybe even moreso.


Colorider X compared Landis positon like Alpine Super G Skier. By placing your arm in front of your chest for better air flow. He's actually making a valid observation but does it apply to cycling too? I don't know since im not Time Trailist but Colorider X images are very convincing. If anything, your diagram is more bogus than his. The image below show a comparison. If skier drops his arm like DZ position I bet the skier will be slower.


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## Noël1 (Mar 2, 2006)

*Here's what DZ has to say*



grampy bone said:


> I think we also have to figure in the time of the year. Some of the riders in this race plan on peaking in July (yeah, Landis too!). Having said that, I don't feel that Dave Z held back at all in the TT, he was just not in top form. Its a long season and there is a lot of time for people to get into form.
> 
> I really like Landis and think it would be hilarious if there are a bunch of people who show up in July with his TT position.


Quotable
David Zabriskie, who is now in the chase group, had this to say yesterday on his ride in the time trial and what he thinks of Floyd Landis’ unorthodox position. “I thought I was [good today], but Floyd has been very fast all year, and continues to go fast, so I think I’ll try those bars now. I’m slowly being converted to Floyd’s position.” And how he’d rate his performance in the stage 3 time trial. “Probably about a four,” Zabriskie said. “I’m hard on myself.”


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## jhenry4 (Feb 4, 2006)

*"tweaker"*

and what exactly is this "tweaker" subposed to do anyways?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

philippec said:


> Oh, and I also noted the little custom rear derailleur tweaker Phonak mounted on the shifters...


Not custom. Comes as standard from Campag. 



> and what exactly is this "tweaker" subposed to do anyways?


It allows "on the fly" adjustment of the gears.


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## jhenry4 (Feb 4, 2006)

what sort of on the fly adjustment is possible? given that they're basically friction shifters wouldn't that on the fly adjustment be native to the main lever?


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2006)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> I have attached an airflow diagram that is equally scientific as the others--maybe even moreso.


LOL! I don't know how he gets enough air in that position??? If I force myself into that position (approximately), I loose some expansion capability across my upper chest. I would think that would drop his VO2 max. That or he's as flexible as all hell.


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## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

*Landis Coach compared it to Alpine skier too.*



Noël said:


> Colorider X compared Landis positon like Alpine Super G Skier. By placing your arm in front of your chest for better air flow. He's actually making a valid observation but does it apply to cycling too? I don't know since im not Time Trailist but Colorider X images are very convincing. If anything, your diagram is more bogus than his. The image below show a comparison. If skier drops his arm like DZ position I bet the skier will be slower.


Just watch OLN Pre-TdF on 06.26.06 interviewing Landis coach Ventura. He explained just that. Well said to both Colorider X and Noël.


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