# Hub pros/cons: DT 240, Alchemy, Ligero



## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

I've decided to build wheels around Edge 45 clincher rims. I initially assumed that I'd lace these to DT 240S hubs, but hanging around this forum for a few months I keep reading good things about Alchemy and Ligero hubs. 

The designs of these latter two seem to be a functional step up to me. Specifically, their flange and bearing (Alchemy) configurations make sense to me. But at the same time, these are new designs made by far smaller businesses. So I worry about long-term durability and serviceability. When I say serviceability, I mean both the availability of parts over the long term, and being able to service them myself or locally vs. having to ship wheels across the country. 

Any comments? 

I post this fully aware that the makers/sellers of these hubs are active participants on this forum, and I'd certainly welcome their feedback in addition to those of you who are customers. 

And finally, what are the negative aspects of DT 240S hubs that I should be aware of?


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## CIOCC FAN (Mar 3, 2007)

If you want long term proven design and durability with ease of spare parts and support, DT Swiss is going to win hands down.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

You can't go wrong with Dt 240 hubs. They are light and reliable, I wish the prices would stop going up on them every 6 months. The front builds into a good stiff wheel. The rear is light but the flange spacing and build specs leave a lot to be desired. The rear does not build into a bad wheel, it is just that is could be so much better with just a few small tweaks.

My hubs do not use any proprietary parts. The freehub body is a titanium one that I buy from White Indsutries. The bearings I buy from Phil Wood and they are 3 easy to get sizes of 6900, 6802 and 6901. The rear hubs with the 2 to 1 lacing and extra wide flange spacing builds into a very stiff wheel laterally. With double the amount of drive spokes compared to a normal 24h wheel and the nearly perfect tangent pulling spokes the wheel transfers drive torque very good. 

The new Alchemy hub is a clean sheet of paper design that will be the new best hub on the market once they are more easily available. Even though it is a clean sheet design it does not use any custom bearing sizes and it is user serviceable. 

As far as both of us being new companies and the future being uncertain, that is any company right now. I cannot say that I will be around 2 years from now but I am dojng everything I can to stay around. I cannot speak for Jeremy but I can tell you with the amount of time and money he has invested in the hubs he does not pan on going anywhere for a long time. Ciocc Fan would like to see me go under and has even gone to the effort of PMing people who have ordered wheels from me and telling them I will rip them off and they will not get there wheels from me.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

CIOCC FAN said:


> If you want long term proven design and durability with ease of spare parts and support, DT Swiss is going to win hands down.


What you need to realize is that both Ciocc and Liogero have skin in this fight. So if Ciocc says something about Ligero you might as well completely disregard it. I am going to give you a truly unbiased opinion for the following reasons.
1 My price on DT hubs is higher than most other places on the web so if i suggest them you can go elseware.
2 Ligero is the only seller of his hubs so I cant make any $ there
3 I am out of ORCs

Comparing the 240 to the Ligero or the Alchemy is insulting to the 2 latter hubs. 
Ligero's hub as well as the ORC are light years ahead of anything else on the market when it comes to design. I am going to say that I am equally impressed with both hubs because of their quality, innovation, flange spacing, bearing spacing, and weight. At this point in time I would opt for the Ligeros because of availability.


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## de.abeja (Aug 27, 2006)

faced!


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

Ligero said:


> Ciocc Fan would like to see me go under and has even gone to the effort of PMing people who have ordered wheels from me and telling them I will rip them off and they will not get there wheels from me.


Wow, vicious business you guys are in. I work at Microsoft and I thought my world was tough. Assuming what you way about Ciocc Fan is true, I'm surprised the moderators haven't banned him. 

Back to the topic at hand: Thanks for your input guys. Is availability of the Alchemy hubs likely to be better this winter, or is this a case of "they'll get here when they get here"?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Wines of WA said:


> Wow, vicious business you guys are in. I work at Microsoft and I thought my world was tough. Assuming what you way about Ciocc Fan is true, I'm surprised the moderators haven't banned him.
> 
> Back to the topic at hand: Thanks for your input guys. Is availability of the Alchemy hubs likely to be better this winter, or is this a case of "they'll get here when they get here"?


Jeremy from Alchemy has told me that his next run should ship by September. Before then you will not be able to find any. Also Ciocc owns a company that competes with Alchemy for the business of builders with regards to the distribution of Kinlin rims... He is also a DT dealer.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

Wines of WA said:


> Wow, vicious business you guys are in. I work at Microsoft and I thought my world was tough. Assuming what you way about Ciocc Fan is true, I'm surprised the moderators haven't banned him.


I sold a pair of carbon wheels to Steve Liffick at Microsoft. 



Wines of WA said:


> Back to the topic at hand: Thanks for your input guys. Is availability of the Alchemy hubs likely to be better this winter, or is this a case of "they'll get here when they get here"?


The Alchemy hub availability will improve over the next 3 months. There is a large run of them being made now that will be done at the end of next month.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Comparing the 240 to the Ligero or the Alchemy is insulting to the 2 latter hubs.
> Ligero's hub as well as the ORC are light years ahead of anything else on the market when it comes to design.


I get very confused by some of your views Zen. The 240s rear hub is one of the most durable hubs produced, it uses large, high-quality bearings and the freehub body mechanism does not wear out, ever. It uses an aluminum freehub body which will marr with use but no worse than any other aluminium freehub on the market, and certainly not a reason not to choose it.

The 240s rear flange spacing does not build as stiff of a wheel as a wider flanged hub like the Tune's or Alchemy but the upside of this is a more even spoke tension from drive to non-drive. As Ligero says, the flange spacing isn't "bad" it's just not as good as some other hubs. In my view the 240s rear hub is perfect for someone who wants a light hub which just works: minimal maintenance, easily available spare parts should they ever be needed, and no finicky problems.

The 240s is light, available in a wide range of drillings, is expensive but not astronomical (and cheaper than the other two hubs), and just plain-old-works. It's a benchmark design and it will be a long time until something significantly better comes along. :thumbsup:


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

I just read the link in Ciocc Fan's signature that leads to another thread in which he pubicly bashes Ligero. 

Ciocc Fan: When you bash people publicly like that, the main effect will be to turn people away from your own business. Unfortunately for those whom you have bashed, it also casts doubt upon them. So all of you lose and people will go buy more Ksyriums. 

My advice to you as a customer of the cycling gear industry is to find a way to compete on positive terms. Absent that, my inclination is to avoid DT Swiss products because now I know that a link in their US supply chain competes for business in unsavory ways, and I have enough unsavoriness in my life already without letting it enter the realm of my hobby. This is supposed to be fun FOR ME (your customer). Please endeavor to at least provide the illusion of fun for me and the rest of your customers.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Lab Worker said:


> I get very confused by some of your views Zen. The 240s rear hub is one of the most durable hubs produced, it uses large, high-quality bearings and the freehub body mechanism does not wear out, ever. It uses an aluminum freehub body which will marr with use but no worse than any other aluminium freehub on the market, and certainly not a reason not to choose it.


The ELF and Ligero's hub use ti freehub bodies.



Lab Worker said:


> The 240s rear flange spacing does not build as stiff of a wheel as a wider flanged hub like the Tune's or Alchemy but the upside of this is a more even spoke tension from drive to non-drive.


The Orc and Ligero's better DS spacing than the 240. The 240 is set up so that you can easily change from Shim to Campy without adjusting the axel assembly. Because of this the ND flange is farther toward the center of the hub than it needs to be on Shimano models. Because of this DT has to move their NDS flange toward the center to avoid a tension disparity that is overwhelming. 



Lab Worker said:


> As Ligero says, the flange spacing isn't "bad" it's just not as good as some other hubs. In my view the 240s rear hub is perfect for someone who wants a light hub which just works: minimal maintenance, easily available spare parts should they ever be needed, and no finicky problems.


I love the 240 and think it is a great hub but I attest that the ORC and Ligero's hubs are much better. I will go as far as to say that they are the 2 best rear hubs on the market hands down.



Lab Worker said:


> The 240s is light, available in a wide range of drillings, is expensive but not astronomical (and cheaper than the other two hubs), and just plain-old-works.


Fair enough


Lab Worker said:


> It's a benchmark design and it will be a long time until something significantly better comes along. :thumbsup:


Ligero's hub as well as the ORC are that much better.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Zen Cyclery said:


> ...


I understand the technical differences between the hubs - but most of these are "differences" not necessarily "improvements" and can be easily weighed up as pro/cons.

Regardless of the finer points the end result is that for a lot of people the 240s is a great hub: Light, reliable, durable and simple to use and maintain.

Personally I think this puts it in the same category as the Ligero and White H2 and not too far off DuraAce where a higher weight is traded for lower cost.. The Alchemy rear hub looks great but it's still unproven and the Tune is lighter but more finicky. All of these hubs are really great products but they've all been designed to maximize different aspects in their design.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Lab Worker said:


> All of these hubs are really great products but they've all been designed to maximize different aspects in their design.


I will agree with you on that point.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Ligero built me a set of Edge 2.68's using his hubs and I have nothing but good things to say about the whole process or the wheels. If you want to see them I believe my set is the one in the picture on the review portion of this site.
http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/ligerowheelworks/PRD_438522_5845crx.aspx

That being said I should quit being lazy and write a review of them! I had been holding off till I had ridden them a bit.

But I do really like the hubs and the wheels as a whole. From the moment I pulled them out of the box till now I have been glad I had him build them.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Zen,

How do they compare to Tune Mag rear hubs?

Thanks,


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

This is an Epic Thread. For the drama, and the useful information. 

"in before the lock?"


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## footballcat (Jul 8, 2004)

I cant wait to get my hands on a set of Alchemy hubs.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Lab Worker said:


> I understand the technical differences between the hubs - but most of these are "differences" not necessarily "improvements" and can be easily weighed up as pro/cons.


The DT rear hub is fine except for the flange spacing... which is also ok if you are using Campy, but is sub-optimal if you are running S. This is not a difference that most people will notice, but it is real.

The Ligero and Alchemy (and White Industries) hubs are well made... and in the USA... which is a bonus for me anyway. If you want to do a triplet lacing then the Ligero hub is the only one I know of that is optimized for it. Getting parts and service is not a problem... bearings are easy to find, and parts for Ligero's will be available at least until WI goes out of business, and parts for Alchemy hubs will be available as long as Jeremy is alive... and maybe for a long time after.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

rruff said:


> The DT rear hub is fine except for the flange spacing... which is also ok if you are using Campy, but is sub-optimal if you are running S. This is not a difference that most people will notice, but it is real.
> 
> The Ligero and Alchemy (and White Industries) hubs are well made... and in the USA... which is a bonus for me anyway. If you want to do a triplet lacing then the Ligero hub is the only one I know of that is optimized for it. Getting parts and service is not a problem... bearings are easy to find, and parts for Ligero's will be available at least until WI goes out of business, and parts for Alchemy hubs will be available as long as Jeremy is alive... and maybe for a long time after.


Knowing Jeremy... 50 years


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## bolt30 (Sep 4, 2006)

cpark said:


> Zen,
> 
> How do they compare to Tune Mag rear hubs?
> 
> Thanks,


I'm curious about this myself.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

cpark said:


> Zen,
> 
> How do they compare to Tune Mag rear hubs?
> 
> Thanks,


The Tune rear hub is going to be the lightest of the bunch but also the most finicky. I used to love Tune hubs when they made the mag190 but ever since they switched to the 180 something is not right. The 180 seems to have random issues with creaking that does not seem to be fixed. If you get 10 mag180 rear hubs 8 will be perfect and 2 will creak and there is no way to check which ones will do it except riding them. 

Not counting the random creaking issue they are surprisingly durable hubs. Considering the rear weighs 182g it holds up really well. As long as you torque the lock ring down to the proper torque setting the alloy freehub is not a issue. I have one customer that has over 25k on his Tune hubs and the bearings are still nice and smooth and the scarring on the aluminum splines is very minimal.

I have not seen any issues with the mig70 front hub, I am sure there is something that could go wrong with, I just havn't seen it yet.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Ligero said:


> The Tune rear hub is going to be the lightest of the bunch but also the most finicky. I used to love Tune hubs when they made the mag190 but ever since they switched to the 180 something is not right. The 180 seems to have random issues with creaking that does not seem to be fixed. If you get 10 mag180 rear hubs 8 will be perfect and 2 will creak and there is no way to check which ones will do it except riding them.
> 
> Not counting the random creaking issue they are surprisingly durable hubs. Considering the rear weighs 182g it holds up really well. As long as you torque the lock ring down to the proper torque setting the alloy freehub is not a issue. I have one customer that has over 25k on his Tune hubs and the bearings are still nice and smooth and the scarring on the aluminum splines is very minimal.
> 
> I have not seen any issues with the mig70 front hub, I am sure there is something that could go wrong with, I just havn't seen it yet.


The Ligero and ALchemy hubs will be stiffer, the bearings will last longer, and the flange spacing is better because they build up with more even tension.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

I'll post after my ride today. But, as a preview, I am a 3x customer of Troy at Ligero.

There's a reason I go back to him as my main wheel builder.


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## slyboots (Mar 20, 2006)

How many engagement points do the Ligero and Alchemy hubs have?


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

slyboots said:


> How many engagement points do the Ligero and Alchemy hubs have?


Mine is 24 and the Alchemy is 30. Don't quote me that the Alchemy hub is 30 but they early prototypes were and I don't see why he would change that. On a road bike there is no reason to go any higher then that as all it does is add drag to the wheel when coasting. A great example is Industry Nine wheels. The mtb wheels use a 6 pawl, 72 point 3 degree engagement system, there road wheels are 3 pawls with 24 points. There is noticeable drag when coasting the mtb wheels where the road wheels coast very freely.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

*One more question*



Ligero said:


> Mine is 24 and the Alchemy is 30. Don't quote me that the Alchemy hub is 30 but they early prototypes were and I don't see why he would change that. On a road bike there is no reason to go any higher then that as all it does is add drag to the wheel when coasting. A great example is Industry Nine wheels. The mtb wheels use a 6 pawl, 72 point 3 degree engagement system, there road wheels are 3 pawls with 24 points. There is noticeable drag when coasting the mtb wheels where the road wheels coast very freely.


nm question answered


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## slyboots (Mar 20, 2006)

*Ligero*, thanks for the detailed answer.


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## timo1005 (May 22, 2008)

*Ligero wheels*

I am glad to read such good things about the Ligero wheelsets and hubs.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

timo1005 said:


> I am glad to read such good things about the Ligero wheelsets and hubs.


Hi Timo, I shiped them 2 weeks ago, I will find out today if they are lost or they have been help up in customs.


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

Ligero said:


> Mine is 24 and the Alchemy is 30. Don't quote me that the Alchemy hub is 30 but they early prototypes were and I don't see why he would change that. On a road bike there is no reason to go any higher then that as all it does is add drag to the wheel when coasting. A great example is Industry Nine wheels. The mtb wheels use a 6 pawl, 72 point 3 degree engagement system, there road wheels are 3 pawls with 24 points. There is noticeable drag when coasting the mtb wheels where the road wheels coast very freely.


The Alchemy is a 30 point engagement.


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## nachtjager (May 7, 2008)

DT Swiss has upped their engagement points to 36 (from 18) in the form of a star ratchet upgrade kit. Engagement points are more useful in the mtb world, but I can't wait to upgrade both my DT (disc and road) hubs. I have nothing but praise for them.

That said, I'm going to find it hard to turn down the alchemy hubs when I build my edge 45c's up but I do have a spare DT 240 hubset lying around


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

nachtjager said:


> DT Swiss has upped their engagement points to 36 (from 18) in the form of a star ratchet upgrade kit. Engagement points are more useful in the mtb world, but I can't wait to upgrade both my DT (disc and road) hubs. I have nothing but praise for them.
> 
> That said, I'm going to find it hard to turn down the alchemy hubs when I build my edge 45c's up but I do have a spare DT 240 hubset lying around



Keep in mind that the freewheel resistance is going to increase, though I don't know how much. I think this is one of the reasons why DT didn't increase their points of engagement sooner.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

If the engagement of the 240 is a problem, get a fixie!


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## nachtjager (May 7, 2008)

ssauter said:


> Keep in mind that the freewheel resistance is going to increase, though I don't know how much. I think this is one of the reasons why DT didn't increase their points of engagement sooner.



hmm, not sure either! how about i keep you posted:thumbsup:


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## Trouble (Apr 3, 2004)

rruff said:


> The DT rear hub is fine except for the flange spacing... which is also ok if you are using Campy, but is sub-optimal if you are running S. This is not a difference that most people will notice, but it is real.
> 
> The Ligero and Alchemy (and White Industries) hubs are well made... and in the USA... which is a bonus for me anyway. If you want to do a triplet lacing then the Ligero hub is the only one I know of that is optimized for it. Getting parts and service is not a problem... bearings are easy to find, and parts for Ligero's will be available at least until WI goes out of business, and parts for Alchemy hubs will be available as long as Jeremy is alive... and maybe for a long time after.



DT 240: Center to left 35.3 mm, center to right 19.4 mm = 54.7
WI H2: Center to left 36.0 mm, center to right 18.0 mm = 54.0

No data on the Alchemy or the Ligero.

Also, there is no difference between the Shimano or Campy according to DT Site. Not sure what you mean, "but is sub-optimal if you are running S." 

I'm researching hubs and DT, WI and Shimano DA are my starting choices right now with the DT sorta in the lead. Although I am still looking into and trying to understand the flange spacing issue.

Lab Worker has made many of the finer points and I know there are a lot of DT240/1.1/SupComp wheels out there with tons of miles on them and happy owners.
Even my Bontrager Race Lite had 14k miles on it of rough roads and bunny hopping. I didn't even care about the build of that wheel for all those miles... now, I'm giving it too much thought.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Trouble said:


> Also, there is no difference between the Shimano or Campy according to DT Site. Not sure what you mean, "but is sub-optimal if you are running S."


What rruff means is that the Shimano freehub is not as wide as the Campag freehub and because of this the driveside flange *could* be moved outwards about 1mm but isn't. Some hubs (like the 190 or White) have different CF measurements for the Campag and Shimano variants.

The con is the flange spacing could be better which would build into a stiffer wheel. The pro is that switching freehub bodies does not require the wheel to be re-dished.



Trouble said:


> I'm researching hubs and DT, WI and Shimano DA are my starting choices right now with the DT sorta in the lead. Although I am still looking into and trying to understand the flange spacing issue.
> 
> Lab Worker has made many of the finer points and I know there are a lot of DT240/1.1/SupComp wheels out there with tons of miles on them and happy owners.
> Even my Bontrager Race Lite had 14k miles on it of rough roads and bunny hopping. I didn't even care about the build of that wheel for all those miles... now, I'm giving it too much thought.


I like the DT 240s hubs - I think they offer great value, great durability and practically zero maintenance. Yes, their flange spacing could be a bit better but this problem isn't insurmountable and in the grand scheme of things shouldn't be a deal-breaker :thumbsup:


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

Trouble said:


> DT 240: Center to left 35.3 mm, center to right 19.4 mm = 54.7
> WI H2: Center to left 36.0 mm, center to right 18.0 mm = 54.0
> 
> No data on the Alchemy or the Ligero.
> ...


I am not sure where those numbers came from but I just pulled a 240 off the shelf and measured it and I get. 

Center to right- 16.8
Center to left- 32.4
Flange diameter- 45.10

The specs I have written down for the Shimano 190 hubs are as follows, the Campy 190 hubs have the same specs as the 240 hub.

Center to right- 19.10
Center to left- 31.0
Flange diameter- 45.0

The specs for the Shimano Alchemy hub are,

Center to right- 19.8
Center to left- 35.5
Drive side flange- 58
Non drive flange- 42

The flange spacing for my triplet specific hub is,

Center to right- 18.5
Center to left- 48.5
Drive side flange- 55
Non drive flange- 36

With all of that said the 240 hub is a great hub that is very reliable but if you are looking for the stiffest build with good tension balance the Dt is going to be the worst out of the bunch.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

^^^Yep.

Ideally IMO... get the DS flange as close to the dropout as you can, then space the NDS 1.8-2.0x this. On most builds this will result in NDS tension that is high enough to keep the spokes from going slack from radial loads, while having a enough bracing angle to make the wheel stable and laterally stiff. You can usually lace the NDS either heads-in or heads-out to make small corrections, but if the DS flange spacing is poor, then the wheel won't be as strong and stiff as it could be regardless of what you do. Lacing the DS heads-in can work well on some hubs though... like PT especially.


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## Trouble (Apr 3, 2004)

Ligero said:


> I am not sure where those numbers came from but I just pulled a 240 off the shelf and measured it and I get.
> 
> Center to right- 16.8
> Center to left- 32.4
> ...


The measurements came from DT's site. It's one of the .pdf files. Did they make a mistake? I tried to attach it, but I think it's too big. 

I don't know if I'm looking for the stiffest build, is that what's necessary for a great wheel? 
I'm told that a good builder can build in good tension balance into the DT 240s. Is it so great a disparity between the 240 and Alchemy that one should not even consider the 240?

Lastly and most importantly, what are the results of a 240s built wheel going to be without being the stiffest build and having the worst tension balance?

Paralysis from Analysis...........Research in motion :thumbsup:


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## slyboots (Mar 20, 2006)

Trouble said:


> DT 240: Center to left 35.3 mm, center to right 19.4 mm = 54.7


I would strongly recommend to stick with road hubs for road application. These measuremens are from a 135 mm MTB hub - it won't fit a roadbike.


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## SROC3 (Jul 20, 2009)

....I can't wait to get my up and coming build from Zen Master:

- Kinlin XR270 front 
- Kinlin XR300 rear
- 20/24
- CX-Ray Spokes (1 white on each wheel)
- Alchemy ELF/ORC hubs
- Brass nips

Woo Hoo!!!!!!! [email protected]@%@$#@%^$#


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Is it so great a disparity between the 240 and Alchemy that one should not even consider the 240?


The DT hubs are quite popular, so obviously a lot of people consider them and are happy with them. We are talking about what is ideal and getting best possible strength and stiffness (with lowest weight) in the wheel via the hub design.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

rruff said:


> The DT hubs are quite popular, so obviously a lot of people consider them and are happy with them. We are talking about what is ideal and getting best possible strength and stiffness (with lowest weight) in the wheel via the hub design.


He speaks the truth.


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## Trouble (Apr 3, 2004)

rruff said:


> The DT hubs are quite popular, so obviously a lot of people consider them and are happy with them. We are talking about what is ideal and getting best possible strength and stiffness (with lowest weight) in the wheel via the hub design.


Ok then, that leaves the Alchemy hub? I should go back and read the posts eh.

Is the WI H2 comparable to the Alchemy?
What is the triplet specific hub for?
And... is the Shimano 7900 7850 a reasonable option? I have no problem with the maintenance part, in fact I'm wondering if I prefer that. I know there is a weight penalty, but how much? And, I think they have 32 hole.

I see where I made the mistake in reading the hub measurements. My bad  

The bottom line;
I'd like to get a set of wheels built. 
I do like the DT1.1 rims. 
DT spokes seem fine, not a blade or low spoke count fan.
Not sure now on hubs.
I'm 190, so I'm not real concerned about really light wheels as much as a well built wheel on a well thought out hub.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Ok, I'm intriqued by the Alchemy ORC hubs. What does the ORC stand for? 
It looks like the spoke count is 24. All this talk about low spoke count, breaking a spoke, should it be a concern?
Based on what you all are saying, the WI H2 looks pretty close, better than the DT 240s. yes?

Ligero; On your site you have a picture of a WI H2 laced to Velocity Aeroheads OC, they look very nice.

Sheeeeiiiit; I'm back to the drawing board on wheels...:mad2: :lol:


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Trouble said:


> What does the ORC stand for?


ELF was extra light front.
ORC is just to complement the ELF for a cool sounding pair.

Not much to add to what's already been said.

Shimano hubs are the dark horse here. They don't get talked about much, but they are really excellent. The 7900 and later are always worth considering for Shimano or SRAM built bikes. I would take a Dura Ace hub over DT for many reasons. The flange geo is better, the weight is not bad and the price is excellent including some of the best skewers you can get.

I can't wait to get my hands on the ORC as well. I can all but guaranty that they will be nothing short of spectacular. The geo is right, the bearings are all top quality and larger than most bearings speced in hubs. He is getting them fabricated right here in the US of A and seeing to it that the tolerances are up to snuff. That is so important and often left out of the discussion. What really makes a great hub is the tolerances. If you design the best hub on the planet it will work like poo-poo if your tolerances for the machining are too big. Jeremy wants them within a certain spec and if I know him, he won't accept them if they are out. One major item he was dealing with was getting the bearing bores to the right size for proper bearing fit and still having a finish on them. It's not as easy as it sounds. Jeremy even had to analyze what he considered the "proper" bore size for the bearings. Too tight and the bearings wear out too fast. Too loose, the same problem.

That will make his well designed hub last longer. The best bearings can't hold up to a sloppy hub. I have a feeling that people will not be replacing the bearings in these hubs as often as with some others out there. I think the only worry now is whether he can keep up with the demand he has for the hubs.

-Eric


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## Trouble (Apr 3, 2004)

My understanding of hubs has become much clearer now. Thanks to all that posted with such clarity.
I'm all about innovation and design specifics. Dura Ace hubs are an easy choice if I go that route and I do like the price point.

It's sounds like Alchemy, Ligero have put some great thought and effort into their hubs, not with standing a whole lot of real world application and use, but it sounds like that is coming and I wouldn't hesitate to be a part of that. 

Just want to get my moneys worth... the best I can get in design and engineering. I'm really surprised DT hasn't made that same distinction, they're Swiss after all ...maybe for 2010? 
My luck DT would come out with a complete overhaul design of rear hub the day after I received mine.

It comes down to availability and build flexibility.
Who else besides Alchemy Bicycle Works and Ligero builds with the Alchemy hubs? AND, can I get them built with DT rims?


The only other question I'll have in wheel build is which rims.
I do like the DT1.1, but without hi-jacking this thread... I will search for threads comparing DT with Kinlin and the others.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Trouble said:


> My understanding of hubs has become much clearer now. Thanks to all that posted with such clarity.
> I'm all about innovation and design specifics. Dura Ace hubs are an easy choice if I go that route and I do like the price point.
> 
> It's sounds like Alchemy, Ligero have put some great thought and effort into their hubs, not with standing a whole lot of real world application and use, but it sounds like that is coming and I wouldn't hesitate to be a part of that.
> ...



Fairwheel, Ron Ruff, I build with the Alchemys.


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## 123prs (Jun 19, 2007)

Just curious, what is the length of the spoke that a wheelbuilder woulde use with the Alchemy front and rear hubs and the Kinlin XR-200 rims?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

ergott said:


> Jeremy wants them within a certain spec and if I know him, he won't accept them if they are out.


I'll second that. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that Jeremy is inspecting and assembling every hub he sells. Considering the exceptional job he has done supporting and fixing the Tune hubs... for free... even after he stopped distributing them... I feel very confident in the QC and support for his own hubs.


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

rruff said:


> I'll second that. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that Jeremy is inspecting and assembling every hub he sells. Considering the exceptional job he has done supporting and fixing the Tune hubs... for free... even after he stopped distributing them... I feel very confident in the QC and support for his own hubs.



Right now he does biuld each one of his hubs. Once demand gets to high I imagine he will have to have someone else do it. In terms of QC and support, I have yet to find a distributer that is more helpful and friendly.


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## jerman (Jan 28, 2005)

What a great read. I was interested in a $1K pair of carbons I found but after this not sure which way to go with the $... ???


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## tsutaoka (Mar 4, 2005)

yes great thread. it really helped me with thinking about hubs for my upcoming new wheels


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

yep - it was said here. DT240 maybe decent hubs, but they have really gone nuts with the price increases - they aren't *that* good IMHO... The did used to be more fairly priced - and the design hasn't changed since then - at least not anything to increase rear lateral stiffness.


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

interesting thread. i'm glad it didn't devolve into a steel cage match. 

btw, where do WI H2's stand in comparison to the other hubs mentioned in this thread?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

The H2s are heavier that the 240s but have better flange spacing. If I have a large rider who is looking to do a build with 240s I will often suggest the WIs because they build up a bit laterally stiffer. Their biggest advantage over the 240s is the price.


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## robncircus (Oct 28, 2009)

Sorry to revive this thread as a new member but I have a question to add. I have always been interested in various models of wheels and have explored Ligero. I also have a front wheel with an Alchemy hub built by a member on another forum.

My question is this: there is a lot of discussion on paper regarding the stiffness gains in the wheel but how TANGIBLE are these gains? AmI as the average 150lb pack fodder really going to notice? Are the differences more noticible for "elite" level riders?

Thanks!

Rob


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Big riders are going to notice the stiffness of the ELf over say a 240 much more than a 150lb guy.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

robncircus said:


> there is a lot of discussion on paper regarding the stiffness gains in the wheel but how TANGIBLE are these gains? AmI as the average 150lb pack fodder really going to notice? Are the differences more noticible for "elite" level riders?


*The long answer:*

My view on lateral stiffness is that it's not a problem unless you don't have enough of it.

Different rider weights and rider styles demand different levels of stiffness. Generally a heavy-set gear-mashing sprinter needs a stiffer pair of wheels than a skinny climber who stays seated most of the time.

Build a pair of wheels which is _stiff enough_ for the lighter rider and you've accomplished the goal. Increase stiffness from this point and it's unlikely that the rider will notice (or need) that extra stiffness so provided the wheelset will be durable there is no need to add this stiffness. Extra stiffness generally means extra weight so if light weight is a goal then it makes sense to pay attention.

It's quite evident when the wheels are not stiff enough for the rider. They feel mushy out of the saddle, the steering feels disconnected, and quick bursts of acceleration feel dampened.

The tricky bit is that magical "how much" question. This comes from the riders style and experience and from the builders understanding of how different factors effect stiffness. Each component in the wheel has an effect on stiffness and it's a juggling act to ensure that the finished wheel meets the needs of the rider. There is no 'right' answer - it's all about finding a compromise of qualities which will suit the rider.

Because of the cassette mechanism and the narrower center-to-flange on the driveside of a rear hub the rear wheel's lateral stiffness will be less than a matching front. To compensate for this you'll see some combination of stiffer rim, or stiffer spoke, more spokes, and stiffer lacing pattern used on a rear wheel. In an ideal world the rear wheel would be as laterally stiff as the front wheel, however in reality the front will be quite a bit stiffer.

*The short answer*
No, at 150lbs you probably won't notice the difference in stiffness. But changing components could mean a lighter pair of wheels with the same stiffness and you will benefit from this.

Cheers, Tristan


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Lab Worker said:


> My view on lateral stiffness is that it's not a problem unless you don't have enough of it.


Yep... and that is often when the rim flexes to the point where some spokes go slack. 

Note that the rear wheel almost always flexes more than the front even though the front may have a lot fewer spokes. The NDS spokes on the back will go slack more easily also. Rear wheels are a challenge with the amount of dish that 8-9-10-11 spd cassettes require. Single speed rear wheels are way more solid. That is why it's really nice when a hub is designed to squeeze out that last mm of DS spacing before the spokes get too close to the derailleur... like Alchemy is doing. Someday I hope they go to 135mm (or more) on road bikes.


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

To give you an idea of how stiff a wheel the elf can biuld. I have biult a 20h elf with xr-200 and cx-ray spokes radial laced heads in that came in at 540g. When I tested it it was stiffer laterally than a front R-sys or Ksyrium ES and was just as stiff as a 770g ksyrium elite.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

ssauter said:


> To give you an idea of how stiff a wheel the elf can biuld. I have biult a 20h elf with xr-200 and cx-ray spokes radial laced heads in that came in at 540g. When I tested it it was stiffer laterally than a front R-sys or Ksyrium ES and was just as stiff as a 770g ksyrium elite.


Do you have any fork clearance problems with lacing the ELF heads in?

How did you measure the lateral stiffness? It would be interesting to see your jig and results.

Cheers, Tristan


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I build the ELF heads in all the time and I have yet to have any issues.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Good to know! :thumbsup:


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## 123prs (Jun 19, 2007)

Speaking of Alchemy hubs, does anyone have an update as to when the ORC will be available?


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## milroy (Feb 23, 2005)

Gentlemen, 

Thank you for your input.

Could you please comment on the suitibility of hubs for a Campag 11-sp wheel build?

From what I have read, and understood from this thread, the advantages of ORC and Ligero rear hubs relate to a Shimano build - the rear in partiocular. Are these hubs even available for 11sp builds? 

If I have missed something and they are, is the advantage as decisive as is being expressed for a Shimano build?

If not, then what hubs do I use?

Cheers.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I am not sure about Troy's hubs. I will let him answer that but I know that the ORC works on 11 speed. (saw one earlier this week)


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## 123prs (Jun 19, 2007)

Does anyone have a firm date for the re-release of the ORC?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=64593&p=579456&hilit=orc#p579456


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2009)

I will have to get a set of the alchemy hubs. Don't know what I'll build them with but I definitely want a set.

Milroy, I use Ligero's hubs with 11 speed, I put a thin spacer behind the cassette for clearance but other than that no problems. I've been very happy with them and my Campy group.


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## Pegorider (Nov 2, 2008)

*But what about coasting noise?*

I loved my near silent DA hubs, then I moved to Campy and tolerated DT's noisier 240 hub (noticeably quieter after some judicious lubrication.)

How do Ligero's and the Alchemy hubs compare?

Lets say DA is 1 and Campagnolo is 10.

Alchemy is___

Ligero is ___


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

Pegorider said:


> I loved my near silent DA hubs, then I moved to Campy and tolerated DT's noisier 240 hub (noticeably quieter after some judicious lubrication.)
> 
> How do Ligero's and the Alchemy hubs compare?
> 
> ...


If Ligero uses the same internals as a White Industry hub then I would put them at a 1-2 and Alchemy at a 3-4.


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