# Shimano Ultegra 10 Low cog noise



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

I just picked up a new bike a Kestral RT700 with an FSA compact crank and Ultegra 10 Speed group. I changed out the cassette and now the lowest cog has noise.

Everything was fine but I wanted to use this bike to climb and not being a climber I replaced the standard 11-25 cassette that came with the bike with a 12-27 6600 Ultegra 10 cog cassette.

Now I have every tool anyone needs and my long cassette cog removing tool has plenty of tork so it's tight and I didn't put it on with any play. I did notice that their now seems to be some spots forming Parallel with each tooth like the chain is touching the integrated spacer. Other than that everything is just fine. I checked my old cassette and see the spots on both the first and second cog.

The nose is a constant grinding sound.

I have the bike on a trainer now and have stayed out my lower 12T cog. I have ruled out chain rub and frame rub as a possible cause. I see their is almost no space between the lower portion of the tooth on the cog and the spacer on both cassettes. Looks like this space is too low allowing the chain to rub the spacer. 

Now I am wondering if I may have the wrong chain. everything shifts fine though. And its a HG chain?

I'm Baffled maybe I missed some simple fix.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Possibilities*



woodenspoke said:


> I just picked up a new bike a Kestral RT700 with an FSA compact crank and Ultegra 10 Speed group. I changed out the cassette and now the lowest cog has noise. I'm Baffled maybe I missed some simple fix.


The first things that come to mind are a worn chain and/or a chain that needs lube. Measure 24 links (12 inches) with a decent ruler and insure yourself that there is less than 1/16" of elongation. Be sure the chain is clean and properly lubed. Also, if it is only making noise in the smallest cog, you should eyeball the alignment of the derailleur upper pulley and the cog. It might be as simple as a slight tweak of the lower limit screw.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

The bike has less than 300 miles on it mostly on the trainer in just the past 4 weeks. I double checked the chain and it appears to be the correct chain. So very unlikely I have any chain wear.

I am still stumped. When I get it back on the road I will change out the Skewer since I am using the trainer provided skewer and maybe that will fix any chain alignment issues. Barring that I will put on the old Cassette (really brand new) and double check it again.

If it is still weird I will have to bring it to a shop to be checked. I hate having other people work on my bikes but that is a last resort.

I was just wondering if any one else had a similar problem?


----------



## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

*what ring?*

What ring are you on up front when you have this problem? Could be running crossed up and that can give you some noise. Just a thought. When I am in the small ring up front I avoid the 2 small cogs (ten speed). But it sounds like everything was fine before the cassette swap so probably not.


----------



## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

*One more idea*

You might want to check that your rear deraileur upper pulley isn't rubbing against the cog teeth. Since you installed a lower range cassette the deraileur pulley may run closer to the cogs now. If too close it will rub and make a grinding sound. Try swinging the whole rear deraileur body away from the cogs while pedaling and hearing the noise. If it goes away that is likely your problem and can be easily adjusted with the "B" screw...by tightening it a bit. Let us know what you find. It can be difficult to see that they are touching since the chain obstructs the view.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

I checked the chain dérailleur alignment. FYI : I have been putting together my own bikes for more than 10 years so I am fairly proficient in basic bicycle mechanics. I replaced both dérailleur Cables about a week ago, no easy feat on that internal cable routed frame. I added two jagwire adjusters on the levers since I had nothing on the frame. The noise did not change. I don't believe the upper pulley is rubbing since the cassette is actually larger 11 to 12 teeth which would increase the chain tension not lower it.

I think I have been through the basics for setting it up. maybe it has something to do with the indoor trainer and skewer combo??? I am curious about the spots on both cassettes where it looks like the chain has rubbed slightly. Now if the weather would only cooperate I can get it out side for a real test.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

I never use the Small ring small cog combo so that is not the problem. I don't think I have a bike that does not have rub on the crank in the small gear small ring.


----------



## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

One more thing to try if you already haven't. I'm sure that you set up your derailleur so that the pulleys align with the smallest cog when the cable is at it's slackest. If it is, try adjusting the high gear derailleur aligment screw counterclockwise to bring the derailleur closer to the dropout. It may look like it's perfectly aligned right now but try it anyway to see if the noise goes away. Make sure you downshift and upshift after every adjustment to the chain settles in the right spot. If this doesn't work, try fiddling with the b-screw adjustment. With really small cogs you have to get the derailler alignment screws and b-screws set up just right or else you have noise.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

OK so I went over all my rear adjustments again and everything is set up properly. However I finally did a back pedaling motion and I can see the chain / crankset alignment brings the chain against the 2nd cog as it comes onto the cassette. As you back pedal you can see the chain bounce slightly as it rubs against the next cog then drops down. I will assume at speed this contact point is the noise.

The bike was one of the 2007 Kestral brand sell off inventory bikes. Kestrel had to sell off all 2007 stock with the merger so I got the bike cheap. The FSA Slk crank was the Isis version which annoyed me this being 2008 but I paid less for the whole bike than the 2008 frame costs (same frame). So maybe I am looking at a 9 speed made crankset from 2006 and the bottom bracket is just slightly short for a 10 speed or improper instalation. 

I guess I could shim it out and hope all is well or take it apart and replace the bottom bracket, but I had ordered a MegaExo version long before I started this thread wanting at least a better bottom bracket for my weight. Again I am not a climber getting older and want to keep my rides under 25mph. I was going to replace a standard crank on my old Airborne 9 Speed Ultegra with this FSA Compact crank. Or maybe another bike I have which has a cheapo crankset on a Scattante frame set ( yeah it is not all that great the bike). 

So hopefully someone has a fix for this issue now that I have a better clue as to the problem. Maybe someone also needs help in this regard so the fix would be interesting to post. Now this may just be a wheel alignment issue in the trainer but again it looks to be aligned properly.


----------



## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

*Okay*



woodenspoke said:


> FYI : I have been putting together my own bikes for more than 10 years so I am fairly proficient in basic bicycle mechanics. QUOTE]
> 
> Sounds like you have it all figured out then...sorry for the bad information but you DID ask for suggestions didn't you? You are the one with the bike right there in front of you and can't seem to figure it out even with your level of expertise. FYI: I know a guy who had this EXACT problem. The only fix was to tear the bike down completely, buy a different frame and rebuild...shouldn't be a problem for you right?


----------



## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

Why would the crankset/bottom bracket be the problem if the noise started after changing the cassette?
Are you sure the axle is fully seated in the dropouts?
Are you using the lockring that came with the new cassette and not the 11t lockring?
Have you tried adjusting the rear derailleur with the barrel adjuster?

Al


----------



## android (Nov 20, 2007)

Did you use the 1mm spacer that came with the new cassette? 
You still haven't clearly told us what chainring you're using... Are you on the big ring and the 2nd smallest cog or the little ring and the 2nd smallest cog?

Other points:
* Skewer has nothing to do with this.
* incorrect mixing of BB/crank could cause a chainline problem, but not 9spd vs 10spd crank. Correct chain line for a double remains 43.5mm to an imaginary line between the rings. Should fall directly between cog 5 and 6 in the back.
* Bikes with very short chainstays sometimes just rub in odd places. Don't ride those gears or just live with it.


----------



## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

I have been through this same thing. I was able to fix it. I think it's either not adjusted properly or you forgot the spacer as suggested above. I don't think it's the 9sp/10sp problem either. If it's catching on the 2nd largest cog then try moving the derailleur toward the dropout until it doesn't catch.


----------



## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

BTW, that's the high cog, not the low cog.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

I did not mix lock rings. Yes smallest cog 12T high not low my mistake. The FSA is a compact 50/ 34. My center chain line seems fine.

The spacer could it be be the issue?????

There was a spacer in the new cassette box, but the old 11-23 or 25 had no spacer installed. The wheel set is the WCS Ritchey Protocol, given the mixing of stuff here it may be 2007 vintage, if that is any help. I figured it was not needed given that none was installed. But given factory installation work it may have been left off?

I took this bike on one test drive in 30 deg weather and then it went straight on my trainer after I changed the cassette and added the Jagwire adjusters and new cables. I do not remember checking the 11 cog on the test ride. It was cold I was not in shape.

Is this a pressing issue no just annoying. With a 50 on the front I may need this gear.

The question is if I add this spacer how does it help the chain line problem if my cassette is moved further towards the drive side, if that is my issue now? Is it a compression problem where the cassette is not tight enough even though it feels like it. I did some web browsing since the spacer was brough up but found nothing concrete.

The answer may be as simple as removing the bike from my trainer and reinstalling the skewer from the wheel set. Looks straight but it may be cocked slightly. The $3 skewer for the Kinetic does not help make mounting the rear wheel easy on this frame.

I guess my question is the spacer now if the crankset and adjustments are not the issue. And does every wheel set besides the shimano hubs need the spacer? The Ritchey site was of little help. I will send them an email and see if the hub needs the spacer and report back.

So is it the spacer or a cocked wheel. Yes I have tried removing the wheel but it did not help. If we get another nice day I guess I should take another ride and reinstall the good skewer.


----------



## android (Nov 20, 2007)

woodenspoke said:


> I did not mix lock rings. Yes smallest cog 12T high not low my mistake. The FSA is a compact 50/ 34. My center chain line seems fine.
> 
> The spacer could it be be the issue?????
> 
> ...


The spacer should be used any time you put a Shimano 10spd cassette onto a freehub that is capable of fitting an 9/10 speed cassette. This includes most "Shimano Compatible" hubs.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

I emailed Ritchey just for my own piece of mind. 

I will add the spacer when I get the chance and take the bike for a spin. What ever happened to global warming here in the NE.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

Not really a help read reply. But I wonder how am I susposed to tell which freehub it is. My assumption its a 10 speed hub so I am still confused as to why they responded as they did? Confusing to say the least since the spacer came with the 10 Speed Cassette.

A reply in less than a day

Thank you for contacting the Ritchey Info Line. The spacer is used for 9 speed freehub when using a 10 speed cassette. If you are running 10 speed cassette and 10 speed freehub, no spacer required.
I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Ritchey Info


----------



## Dr_John (Oct 11, 2005)

I believe only Shimano made "10-speed only" free-hubs (I'm sure someone here will correct if I'm wrong). All others will be 9, 10-speed compatible. If you're using a 10-speed cog set on a 9,10 speed free-hub, you need the spacer, as android says.

So,

10-speed only (Shimano free-hubs only): no spacer

all others: use spacer

I've edited the Ritchey response (which is correct) for clarity:


The spacer is used for 9,10 speed compatible freehubs when using a 10 speed cassette. If you are running 10 speed cassette and 10-speed only freehub, no spacer required.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

This is the final word from Ritchey. I am impressed with their response speed. Thanks DR John for the clarity. I made the mistake of assuming Ritchey knew it was a 10 speed Cassette since the 9 speed cassette has no spacer in the box. I also had the disadvantage of buying the whole bike rather than putting it together. But you cant fault me for finding a deal.

Anyway the final word


Sorry for the confusion. You do not need the spacer.

Best regards,
Ritchey Info


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

My last notes on this issue. Had to take the bike on the road and check out the problem off the trainer. Braving the damp 40 deg cold and wind.

First I found I had one spring on the trainer skewer in wrong causing a slight misalignment. Being honest here. However when I got the bike out on the road with the factory skewer and springs installed properly the problem was not gone and noise could be heard (less nose than inside due to the wind but still noise). I am going to check the chain to see if maybe the connector pin is causing the issue but the noise is very consistent to be just one pin. We are probably talking about a fraction of an inch of clearance needed to eliminate the rubbing. The change of skewer did reduce the noise a fraction so its a start.

So now its play time: Trial and error fixes I will be considering / doing.

I will check the wheel on my park TS-2 but I don't think there is any issues there.

Changing the cassette back to the original 11 -25 and possibly do some gear mixing if the original cassette has no issues. That would mean Shimano has some quality control issues?

Try another set of wheels from another bike (using the supplied shim) to see if it goes away.

Again replacing the crankset which is going to happen regardless, this may eliminate it. But its doubtful given what was posted here.

Last resort would be to modify the Freehub stop removing 1mm or less from the body to shift the cassette closer to the center of the wheel (I have a precision metal lathe so Its not a big job). This is my last resort fix and not one I really want to do.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

*Problem solved*

Well after all that I replaced the crankset with the MEGO EXO version and guess what?? I had to adjust my front dérailleur out about 2 mm's which fixed the problem with the lower cog noise.

I seem to remember someone saying the crank would not make a difference 108 x 68 is always the same. Seems like not every crankset is the same even from the same manufacturer in this case FSA.

End of story case solved. Easy fix since i needed 175's anyway and the bike came with 172.5's.


----------



## rdolson (Sep 2, 2003)

So now that it's all fixed...

How do you like your RT700????


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

I only have about 20 miles on the road with this frame and about 40hrs on the trainer. I think it is probably the best frame I have bought in the last 10 years. I have an Airborne which is also nice (Zeppelin model) and a Scattante aluminum with carbon seat stays and chain stays from when Performance first bought out the brand, That bike is very rough on the road you feel every bump and I have decided to use it on the trainer next year rather than subject my body to it's pain.

The deal I got from Bikesdirect was good, The frame itself was worth more than the bikes total cost and that is the kind of deal I like. Its under 17lbs very stiff which makes acceleration good, but I have had to change out some items like the crankset which for a 57 should have been 175 not 172.5. If the bike came with the original RT seat post and Dura Ace I would have paid more. The ritchey rear wheel shows signs of needing to be trued already so I am going to keep my eye out on those rims for the first few hundred miles. The rest of the Ritchey WCS stuff is light and well worth the money.

I think the frame is comfortable and dampens road vibration better than the other two bikes I currently ride and is stiffer. I have been trying to find a new seat and added a carbon seat post, all in an effort to make this a long haul ride and climbing machine; for a heavy sprinter like me I need all the help I can get.

Other than the chain line problems the bike was in need of adjusters on the hoods (jagwire) because of the internal cable routing no on bike adjustments are possible and that bothered me. My first experience running new dérailleur cables through the internal routing was a real pain. You have to fish them out from inside the frame after taking off the bottom bracket guides. I suggest a well lit area and a spring hook or hook made from from some stiff wire. The rear Dérailleur also required the chain stay guide be removed to fish out the cable. Looks cool but is more work than I have ever done to replace cables. First time is always the worst. I can only hope the rear brake cable will be easier but I doubt it. If you find doing complicated work on your bike a problem, you may want to look elsewhere for a more user serviceable frame. Or like most people just have a shop do the work for you.

I think for the price, ride and looks its a great frame. I wish I had more hours on it on the road, where is global warming when you need it.


----------



## rdolson (Sep 2, 2003)

I feel your pain with the cable routing. I've had Klein MTB's for years. I got the RT700 in 57cm from BD as a frame only and built it up myself. DA triple, FSA K-Force bars and Ritchey stem, the RT Aero seatpost, Mavic K SL3 tubulars. 

A trick with the cables: When you are pulling a cable out, make sure you have a messenger attached to the old cable. I use a peice of tubing that I slide onto the old cable and feed it in as I pull the old cable out. Then feed the new cable into the tubing and pull the tubing back out again. Works like a charm. Picked up the tubing from an auto parts store, sort of a thin, stiff plastic tube used for vacuum hoses in cars.

No cable adjusters didn't phase me, as I am pretty good at dialing a bike in. Just takes practice and patience.

Found the ride a little stiffer than I was expecting, but then I only have steel to compare it to. I'm 6' 195+-lbs.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

I had a similar thought with the cables only using a thin copper wire and some solder. Considering the small holes on the frame cable stops maybe you can mention what tube you found which would pass through these and still hold onto a cable. I kind of though that they put some ultra lite tube inside the frame to guide the wire or incorporated cable guides into the Frame mold. Little did I know.

My biggest mistake was doing it at night in a dark room. First time is always the worst so I know what to expect next time.

It's not that I expect to use the Jagwire adjusters often but its nice to know you don't have to stop your bike to tweak cable tension. Besides it was a small price to pay for this added feature. It has already come in handy adjusting the new crankset and my front dérailleur. I did not need any additional tools to adjust the cable tension. Also tweaking the front dérailleur is always trial and error deal without this feature. I also change wheel sets if I find a flat and I am in a rush to make a ride so again different wheel different rear dérailleur adjustment.

I have a Merckx TSX century frame but its been ages since I have had it built up so I cant remember how that steel bike felt anymore except heavy. I just hope that this is it with new frame materials for awhile. If I can find the RT seat post somewhere for cheap I will buy it. So far no luck even finding one for sale. I did change the Ritchey bar to an Easton EA90 wing since I have big hands and would like to use the top bar more and reduce hand pain. I guess I have reached comfort stage in my cycling career.

I wish I could have afforded to build up the bike myself but I could not see anyway to come close to that price and justify buying it and not looking at a more expensive bike. I have been to a bike store once in 15 years and that was to remove a cup on my hardback Ti mountain bike that was jammed tight. Another reduced frame purchase. I try to be self sufficient. I guess I will strip this one down in a few years and upgrade to the newer Dura Ace electronic all carbon what ever that comes around in the next few years.

Its like pedals, I started with look went to SPD's since I got tired of replacing cleats. Then went to SPDR's and both smaller cleats were too small. Now I am back to Look cleats and cheap lightweight pedals. I guess its a never ending story of upgrades and trial and error.


----------



## rdolson (Sep 2, 2003)

Take the cable guide fitting off the frame first, using the small allen screw holding it in place. Then you will have a large enough opening to use the tube method. a 1/8" plastic tube should do the trick.


----------



## woodenspoke (Feb 3, 2008)

I figured thats what you did. I know smallparts.com has very small tubing that will work.

I will say there is some risk using a tube especially with the rear dérailleur's long run and the connection in general is less than secure one misstep and your back to fishing out cables.. The other reason I may solder instead is I already have some thin copper wire to spare. and I can leave most of the guides on.

I guess I will deal with it in a year or two, thanks for the advice. Next bike it's external guides since they have not gone out of favor yet.


----------

