# Dopers That Did Not Test Positive...



## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

So, I know, you know, we know there were are dopers that have confessed or have been found out by other means however they did not fail drug tests... Who are these riders? Is there a list somewhere.

What I'm finding people say is that "Well, he never failed a drug test," and I simply state that we know from others who were later caught that they were doping and testing negative at the same time. So the tests don't always point to innocence... Anyway, I'm just looking for some big names that got away with it as far as the tests are concerned.

Thanks


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Jan Ullrich never directly admitted and wasn't caught by any test.
Ivan Basso, only intended to dope, according to him.
Michael Rasmussen, only thing he did wrong was lie about his whereabouts.
Bjarne Riis, never got caught. Admitted years later.
The following I'm not that sure about. 
Erik Zabel, only admitted after his retirement.
Wasn't Johan Musseuw in the same boat as Erik?


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

So how does Jan Ullrich fit on the list if he never admitted and wasn't caught? I'll need to look into that.

Ivan Basso, I believe did dope. But then there's that 1% of me that wonder if he really did just intend to since he hadn't been caught with dope running thrugh his veins. 

Thanks for the rest.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

MG537 said:


> Jan Ullrich never directly admitted and wasn't caught by any test.
> Ivan Basso, only intended to dope, according to him.
> Michael Rasmussen, only thing he did wrong was lie about his whereabouts.
> Bjarne Riis, never got caught. Admitted years later.
> ...


Correct, Museeuw was caught because his veterinarian, who was administering the drug, was caught. 

And the entire squad of Festina riders in 1998 was caught only because their soigneur was caught driving a huge carload of EPO and other stuff. None of them ever tested positive in a test. 

So add Virenque, Dufaux, Brochard, Herve to the list. 

Add also Valverde, also of Operacion Puerto. 

Hell, even VDB was caught only because he was speeding with loads of EPO in his trunk. He never tested positive.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Most of the Fignon/Badger/Lemond era dopers did not get caught. Institutionalized team doping was the rule Pre-Festina, and the riders and teams were _way_ ahead of the testers at that point. 

Pre-Festina, pretty much everyone was "preparing" for racing with Doping. But only a few have come clean- the Professor's cancer spurred him to talk. Not sure if anything will get the others too.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Figure most-many riders pre-2000 were doping (even maybe my beloved Big Mig), and even with the better testing post 2000, way too many still were. And today- who knows. Given Vino's ride in the TdF this year, doping aint dead among the GC riders.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Coolhand said:


> Figure most-many riders pre-2000 were doping (even maybe my beloved Big Mig), and even with the better testing post 2000, way too many still were. And today- who knows. Given Vino's ride in the TdF this year, doping aint dead among the GC riders.


Geez... So you think Vino is doping even after being banned for being caught?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Fignon got caught, but it wasn't a big deal back then. A few weeks off from racing and a $60 fine.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

MaddSkillz said:


> Geez... So you think Vino is doping even after being banned for being caught?


Yep. I think he's doped to the gills.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

mohair_chair said:


> Fignon got caught, but it wasn't a big deal back then. A few weeks off from racing and a $60 fine.


Didn't remember that- what did they catch him for?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Wasn't Beloki named in Puerto? I don't remember 100%.
If you believe Jesus Manzano, he would qualify too.
Frankie Andreu goes in the same category as Zabel and Riis, sure they didn't test positive but there also wasn't a test for EPO back then, so it's not really the same thing.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> Yep. I think he's doped to the gills.


I like Vino doped...and riding crazy. :thumbsup:


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

covenant said:


> I like Vino doped...and riding crazy. :thumbsup:


Fair enough-


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> Didn't remember that- what did they catch him for?


Amphetamine / speed, I think? He admits it as much in his autobiography.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

There were a bunch of OP riders (e.g. Sevilla, Ullrich, Basso, Guttierez, Mancebo) that never tested positive but either got suspended because their blood was matched or they were just black-listed.

Jesker Skippy has talked about his drug use, but not sure if he failed a test or not at some point. I know there are several others.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Isn't homologous blood doping still undetectable through testing? I thought they could only detect if someone else's blood was used, but I could be wrong.

I could easily see riders pursuing a program where they use the micro doses of EPO while training, then go clean during a race but dope with their own blood.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Jesker Skippy has talked about his drug use, but not sure if he failed a test or not at some point. I know there are several others.


don't think he was busted. 
neither was Hamburger, technically.


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

Gatorback said:


> Isn't homologous blood doping still undetectable through testing? I thought they could only detect if someone else's blood was used, but I could be wrong.
> 
> I could easily see riders pursuing a program where they use the micro doses of EPO while training, then go clean during a race but dope with their own blood.


Correct on all accounts. Plus EPO is detectable for 3 days max, but the benefits last 14 days on average.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

I think homologous blood doping is detectable on some level. They can tell when there are old and new cells in the blood, for instance, by looking at it under a microscope. But while the presence of old and new cells is suspicious, it doesn't automatically indicate blood doping. So there isn't a test for it.


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

mohair_chair said:


> I think homologous blood doping is detectable on some level. They can tell when there are old and new cells in the blood, for instance, by looking at it under a microscope. But while the presence of old and new cells is suspicious, it doesn't automatically indicate blood doping. So there isn't a test for it.


Correction for my previous post. I often initially get homologous and autologous mixed up. Homologous transfusions are currently detectable (i.e. Tyler Hamilton). Autologous (own blood) transfusions are currently non-detectable. I've read articles similar to your post. Somehow the scientists are trying to determine the difference between stored blood and non-stored blood. Meanwhile this is the doping method of choice since the odds of getting caught are just above nil, nada, zero, zilch.

The "never failed a test" is not a solid defense against doping accusations. Especially when those doping claims are specifically to autologous blood transfusions.


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## ademitt (Jan 23, 2009)

Pedro Delgado tested positive for probenecid in the 1988 tour. Probenecid, is used to treat kidney ailments and has the benefit of masking steroids. It was banned by the IOC but not the UCI at the time. As a result, he was allowed to continue and ended up the winner in 88.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

ademitt said:


> he was allowed to continue and ended up the winner in 88.


Karma got him pretty good the next year.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

orange_julius said:


> Amphetamine / speed, I think? He admits it as much in his autobiography.


Also claims it was incorrect as he couldn't have been positive in that race. The race was normally a control-free event but was going to have controls that year and riders were warned in advance. Fignon claims that he would have been mad to have used amphetamine in a race he knew there would be a control. Additionally he comments that if he knew he would be tested why would he attempt to win?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> Also claims it was incorrect as he couldn't have been positive in that race. The race was normally a control-free event but was going to have controls that year and riders were warned in advance. Fignon claims that he would have been mad to have used amphetamine in a race he knew there would be a control. Additionally he comments that if he knew he would be tested why would he attempt to win?


Maybe he made a Landis mistake.


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

David Miller didn't fail a test if I remember correctly. They found epo in his house.

Did Pantani ever fail a test? I know his hemocrit was above the 50% limit at the giro and he had to stop racing for two week only. He was suspended a few years later but I think that was because of a room search.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

covenant said:


> I like Vino doped...and riding crazy. :thumbsup:


I love how Vino's helmet is usually all cock-eyed and sitting too high on his head....think doping has had something to do with this over the years?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Not saying that Vino isn't still doping, but I find it somewhat unlikely since he's tested and I figure they'd be able to catch it unless they're that incompetent. 

With any blood transfusion, there would be an instant spike in red blood cells. Shouldn't be too hard to see in a microscope, but easily detectable by modern lab draws. Not sure how long this has been the case. Given the extra fluid in the blood stream, most people would need a dose of Lasix to avoid the pulmonary edema, hyper tension, and other volume related side effects. Testing for Lasix has been possible for many decades.

I can't recall how long hematocrit (immature red blood cells) has been around, but certainly for a little while, obviously much longer than we had been able to test for EPO. The problem with this is that HCT and the life cycle of red blood cells is complex, so using a HCT wasn't nearly as conclusive as the UCI would have liked to believe. I'm not saying Pantani didn't use EPO, but I certainly don't like how this was based on HCT. I know my own is slightly higher than the UCI limit without any form of blood doping.

I'd agree that use of EPO was rampant before they could run any tests for it.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

And then there's this.

An article discussing Armstrong's suspicious blood values during the 2009 TdF.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MaddSkillz said:


> And then there's this.
> 
> And article discussing Armstrong's suspicious blood values during the 2009 TdF.


Insignificant changes in the lab values, probably within standard % error values.


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

"Pedro Delgado tested positive for probenecid in the 1988 tour. Probenecid, is used to treat kidney ailments and has the benefit of masking steroids"

If I recall correctly, Delgado originally claimed he took it to help with gout. Gout!!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

aptivaboy said:


> "Pedro Delgado tested positive for probenecid in the 1988 tour. Probenecid, is used to treat kidney ailments and has the benefit of masking steroids"
> 
> If I recall correctly, Delgado originally claimed he took it to help with gout. Gout!!


If he had problems with gout back then, I'd assume he still has it.  

It doesn't really mask steroids, but help excrete them to levels that are much less detectable. I believe it works based on some ion exchange in the kidney, which is how it would allow to excrete more uric acid chrystals for gout, but also excrete other drugs. Oddly enough, that same ion exchange model would allow reduced excretion of things like penicillin and it was used to keep higher plasma penicillin concentrations without having go constantly take pills all day.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

How about Alexi Grewal and the 1984 Olympic team. Looks like American cycling coach god Eddie B was behind it. There was a huge stink about blood doping. Probably the first I remember.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119061/index.htm


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Dang, why am I not in the Pro Peleton. I had a comprehensive blood test last year, drawn during the Tour on 7/21/09, and both my hematocrit and hemoglobin were higher than Armstrong's. 

I guess I need to train more because I can't hang with our local pro mountain bikers when they mix it up toward the end of group road rides. Maybe that or I'm just a washed up old working stiff who missed my calling.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

spookyload said:


> How about Alexi Grewal and the 1984 Olympic team. Looks like American cycling coach god Eddie B was behind it. There was a huge stink about blood doping. Probably the first I remember.
> 
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119061/index.htm


The article you cite has no reference to Grewal at all. Additionally it was not illegal then, nor was it for a further 2 years.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Gatorback said:


> Dang, why am I not in the Pro Peleton. I had a comprehensive blood test last year, drawn during the Tour on 7/21/09, and both my hematocrit and hemoglobin were higher than Armstrong's.
> 
> I guess I need to train more because I can't hang with our local pro mountain bikers when they mix it up toward the end of group road rides. Maybe that or I'm just a washed up old working stiff who missed my calling.



Group pro mtb rides? Cool. Where do you do these rides?

Edit...Oops. I just reread that they are mtb pros on road rides....yeh we have that too here in SD..


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

We are getting a big group up for a mtb ride on Sunday, heading to a race course to get in a few laps and check out a new trail built there. We have two local pros, brothers, who work in a shop together and are great kids (not really kids, but young guys compared to me). They are really great for the local cycling community and quite willing to help everyone out. The local shop is the coolest place to hang in town. The owner is a former pro roadie and really knows what he is doing with the shop. He has created an outstanding atmosphere and the place is always buzzing with riders.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

MaddSkillz said:


> So, I know, you know, we know there were are dopers that have confessed or have been found out by other means however they did not fail drug tests... Who are these riders? Is there a list somewhere.
> 
> What I'm finding people say is that "Well, he never failed a drug test," and I simply state that we know from others who were later caught that they were doping and testing negative at the same time. So the tests don't always point to innocence... Anyway, I'm just looking for some big names that got away with it as far as the tests are concerned.
> 
> Thanks


the guy that just died. laurent fignon admitted to being juiced.


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