# Froom taking food on the last climb



## nacnac3 (Dec 27, 2002)

I think its BS that Froome took gel/water/nutrition on the last climb. Does anyone else have an issue with this? Its blatantly against the rules and I know he got fined 20 seconds but that seems like such a weak penalty. And who knows how much time he would have lost if he didnt take it? I bet it would have been more than 20 seconds.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying I could do it better but how much do you think TJ would have given for some gel and a drink?


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

nacnac3 said:


> I think its BS that Froome took gel/water/nutrition on the last climb. Does anyone else have an issue with this? Its blatantly against the rules and I know he got fined 20 seconds but that seems like such a weak penalty. And who knows how much time he would have lost if he didnt take it? I bet it would have been more than 20 seconds.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying I could do it better but how much do you think TJ would have given for some gel and a drink?


That's twice he and Porte took grub when others didn't...1st time they "allowed" it w/o penalty...second time is just flouting and not very sportsmanlike. Yep, they're dirty on more than one level.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm not as angry as many. He knew he would be penalized and took the calculated risk. True cheating would have been eating and trying to conceal it to avoid the penalty. 

It is the same penalty given to Indurain in 96 for drinking water from a fan.


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## nacnac3 (Dec 27, 2002)

thechriswebb said:


> I'm not as angry as many. He knew he would be penalized and took the calculated risk. True cheating would have been eating and trying to conceal it to avoid the penalty.
> 
> It is the same penalty given to Indurain in 96 for drinking water from a fan.


Did you see his comments about "technically" Porte took the gel..... And about how it was ok because he couldn't get food earlier due to problems with the car? Weak sauce. 

I think its BS. If he bonks he could drop minutes. That would change the race.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

Did Indurain get a 20 second penalty? Is that a standard penalty for that infraction or does the jury make something up to fit the circumstances?

Also what kind of a mechanical did the Sky Jaguar have? I'm wondering if some nasty fans messed with it in some way - urine or eggs perhaps


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## fontarin (Mar 28, 2009)

I think it should have been worse - a minute or two. Basically without the food there's a good chance he would have bonked, and lost loads of time. It could have cost him the tour - but illegally taking a feed negated any chance of that. I'm sure he'd do it again.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Its crapola. Had he not gotten the gel, he would have bonked and lost time. Losing 20 seconds is a gift from the judges.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

No issue here. Look, the food was probably not even digested to make a difference. Plus he gained nothing from it.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

I bet TJ would have like to have a gel and some water... 

BS and bs that this was the 2nd time he took and illegal feed. 

But what a great stage!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

If it's only a 20 sec penalty - and I were Froome - I'd get the last Kms catered! :thumbsup:


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

gofast2wheeler said:


> No issue here. Look, the food was probably not even digested to make a difference. Plus he gained nothing from it.


It was a gel. They hit your system pretty fast. Likely not the same gel you and I get, but a gel meant to work fast for him. Guessing he wouldn't have wasted the time or effort if it wouldn't have helped.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

RTSO2112 said:


> That's twice he and Porte took grub when others didn't...1st time they "allowed" it w/o penalty...second time is just flouting and not very sportsmanlike. Yep, they're dirty on more than one level.


When was the other time? If you're talking about the feed zone musette bag that was legal. The race radio stated they had changed it from the 10km to 6km line. Every team knew about this, Sky just managed to actually organize themselves to do it.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

Saw the race, but not familiar with racing rules....what is the actual rule and it's application?


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## ToffieBoi (May 1, 2011)

LostViking said:


> If it's only a 20 sec penalty - and I were Froome - I'd get the last Kms catered! :thumbsup:












Something like this on the handlebars could be cool 
I would do that too.


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

ToffieBoi said:


> Something like this on the handlebars could be cool
> I would do that too.


Ugh... plane food... No, I would not want that on my bars.


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## Countchristo (Jul 13, 2011)

View attachment 284438
View attachment 284438

Perhaps Adam Hansen should get a penalty for this too? Or is beer allowed for Australians?


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

It's a good thing the riders are closely supervised and on camera, or Froome might have gained like 20+ minutes today... by hanging on to the team car also

That's right, I said it... too soon?


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## Tugboat (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't think Adam Hansen or any of the other riders who took beers at Dutch Corner would be bothered at all by a 20 second penalty being added to their time. 

Huge difference between guys in the autobus having a bit of fun and the maillot jaune cheating to avoid bonking at the front of the race.


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## Countchristo (Jul 13, 2011)

I doubt Hansen cares. I think if you are on your second run up that mountain in a day you deserve a beer... I doubt it would have helped him climb the hill though.


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## SFTifoso (Aug 17, 2011)

This is BS. The penalty should've been greater. Sky doesn't have any respect for the rules.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

If Froome Bonk, we might have had a very interesting race come friday and Sat and he could have lost 2-3 minutes. Froome showed be docked 2:00 and Sky $1mil Pounds for a second violation. Maybe they will learn? Then again, thats chump change for them.
So instead we have a boring race when it coms to yellow as it was wrapped up a few weeks ago, like I and many others said. Its worse than Postal at times and thinking you know what about Froome, this race sucks!


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> If Froome Bonk, we might have had a very interesting race come friday and Sat and he could have lost 2-3 minutes. Froome showed be docked 2:00 and Sky $1mil Pounds for a second violation. Maybe they will learn? Then again, thats chump change for them.
> So instead we have a boring race when it coms to yellow as it was wrapped up a few weeks ago, like I and many others said. Its worse than Postal at times and thinking you know what about Froome, this race sucks!



Aw c'mon. Give the kid the benefit of the doubt. You did it for Lance. 

You make me laugh, frothing at the mouth cos Froome the anti-christ takes a gel bar and yet you somehow overlook the fact that the man behind him on GC. is a cheat and was sanctioned. Oh yeah, he's not on Sky so...
Oh, and Sky is a moneybags team so that's not fair. Be for real. USPS, fed money, Trek, Nike, Shimano??
If the race sucks, go ride your bike...and don't forget your gel bar.


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

sir duke said:


> Aw c'mon. Give the kid the benefit of the doubt. You did it for Lance.
> 
> You make me laugh, frothing at the mouth cos Froome the anti-christ takes a gel bar and yet you somehow overlook the fact that the man behind him on GC. is a cheat and was sanctioned. Oh yeah, he's not on Sky so...
> Oh, and Sky is a moneybags team so that's not fair. Be for real. USPS, fed money, Trek, Nike, Shimano??
> If the race sucks, go ride your bike...and don't forget your gel bar.


Wow, I didn't think one fanboi could give out so MANY free passes to his hero in one post, but I have been wrong before...I believed in Lance, too!


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

Stage 18, I saw what appeared Schleck grabbed a small coke can from a fan and put it in his back pocket. Would you grab food/drinks from a fan? It could be poisoned.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

RTSO2112 said:


> Wow, I didn't think one fanboi could give out so MANY free passes to his hero in one post, but I have been wrong before...I believed in Lance, too!


Ah, another doping forum wannabee savant armed with that withering expression 'fanboi' (and with the 'cool' spelling too). You're new here, aren't you? I don't doubt you've been wrong before, you're wrong here too..

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/will-wiggins-one-save-us-sky-308651.html post #18

It pays to do your homework sweetcakes...:thumbsup:


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Total non issue, he took a feed and got a standard penalty done deal. For those calling for a larger penalty no thanks I want to see as fair a race as we can have not one decided by penalties for minor infractions and I say that as someone who is not a Froome fan.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I think the time penalties for accepting nutrition during an unauthorized feed zone in a 3 week bike race are stupid to begin with, so no comment.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

spookyload said:


> It was a gel. They hit your system pretty fast. Likely not the same gel you and I get, but a gel meant to work fast for him.


Probably one of those new EPO Gels. :thumbsup:


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Chainstay said:


> Did Indurain get a 20 second penalty? Is that a standard penalty for that infraction or does the jury make something up to fit the circumstances?
> 
> Also what kind of a mechanical did the Sky Jaguar have? I'm wondering if some nasty fans messed with it in some way - urine or eggs perhaps


I'm not 100% sure that it is canonized but yes, Indurain was docked 20 seconds. It was a similar situation and a similar calculation. Indurain famously said that the 20 seconds he lost for drinking the water was better than the minute he would have lost had he not. 

Yes, the "technically" comment from Froome was a bit bothersome. If he just said that he knew there would be a fine and willingly took it, I am not particularly bothered with that. If they are within the rules (taking the fine is playing by the rules) then I'm not going to worry so much. If they are hiding something, that is different.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

thechriswebb said:


> Yes, the "technically" comment from Froome was a bit bothersome. If he just said that he knew there would be a fine and willingly took it, I am not particularly bothered with that. If they are within the rules (taking the fine is playing by the rules) then I'm not going to worry so much. If they are hiding something, that is different.


There's rules, and there's also sportsmanship. Last year when the tacks were in the road, there was no rule saying Wiggins had to wait up for Cadel. He could've put the hammer down and gained 5min. 

I don't see a difference between hiding it vs in your face. Both say quite a bit about ones charachter.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Chainstay said:


> Also what kind of a mechanical did the Sky Jaguar have?


Always thought Jags looked good, but were mechanically unsoumd - would be interested to hear the problem as well.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Good thing Conti didn't tank up on the climb - the Skyborg fans here would have had a cow!


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

Effective penalties dissuade undesirable behavior by creating an adverse risk/reward scenario for the potential cheater. That Froome calculated a 20 second penalty was worthwhile makes it clear that the penalty is seen as minor. He may have lost 2 minutes had he not had that gel. 

What is the penalty for an underweight bike, for example? I'd argue that a few grams of weight has almost no impact on rider performance over the entire stage.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

RTSO2112 said:


> That's twice he and Porte took grub when others didn't...1st time they "allowed" it w/o penalty...second time is just flouting and not very sportsmanlike. Yep, they're dirty on more than one level.


it's the first.. get it right.



gofast2wheeler said:


> No issue here. Look, the food was probably not even digested to make a difference. Plus he gained nothing from it.


I happen to agree with this, when i'm about to bonk, the gel takes about 5-10min to really work. But I guess its that instant sugar that refuels you enough.



SFTifoso said:


> This is BS. The penalty should've been greater. Sky doesn't have any respect for the rules.


the "rules" are if you take on fuel within a certain distance, it is 20sec penalty. That is the rules, what rules were broken?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Interesting logic being employed here:

If one does something against the rules, but pays the penalty, then one has not done something against the rules.

So, what does that look like in the real world:

You speed. The Police pull you over for going over the speed limit (i.e. breaking the law as it pertains to speed limits) - you say thank you officer and pay the fine.
You have done nothing wrong and are in compliance with the law.

Amazing! This kind of innovative thinking could change law as we know it. :thumbsup:


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

LostViking said:


> Interesting logic being employed here:
> 
> If one does something against the rules, but pays the penalty, then one has not done something against the rules.
> 
> ...


That's not breaking the law. It's a surcharge for driving fast! 
It's like on some hiways that have a special lane, you pay a toll and can drive in the lane with no traffic.
On planes, you pay a surcharge for the exit row seat.

That's all Froome was doing... pay a surcharge for a late race snack.


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## tober1 (Feb 6, 2009)

gofast2wheeler said:


> No issue here. Look, the food was probably not even digested to make a difference. Plus he gained nothing from it.


I agree with this. He finished like 10 minutes later. Still a sketchy thing to do.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

tlg said:


> That's all Froome was doing... pay a surcharge for a late race snack.


LOL - So the TdF is offering last minute snacks (advantages) at a surcharge, nice.
And here I thought it was a fine for breaking the rules!

Things are much clearer now.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

I wonder what the surcharge would be if I threw a bunch of tacks on the road behind me when I hit the start of a steep climb?

Might be worth it....


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

LostViking said:


> LOL - So the TdF is offering last minute snacks (advantages) at a surcharge, nice.
> And here I thought it was a fine for breaking the rules!
> 
> Things are much clearer now.


Then please lay out the rules then, since you seem to understand it better then everybody else. 

There are always exceptions to the rule, just like your example of speeding. Even though one is a rule of a sanctioned race, and the other one is the "law". But we'll try to keep it in persepective.

You speed, you break the law. You get fined $xxxx. Can you go on speeding? Yes you can. That's what Demerit points are for, the more tickets you get you risk the fine of suspension of your drivers license. 

Not only do you pay the fine for speeding, your insurance rates go up. To many tickets? your insurance decides to not insure you, so you can't drive. Those are the outcomes of you deciding to speed, it's up you as an individual to comply with those outlines. 

Going by your logic, do we take away everyone's license who speeds over 1mile an hour? let me guess, you've never broken any speeding limits right? oh, but since there was no camera/cop following you, its ok.


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

Just to preface this, I'm no fan of Sky or Chris Froome. But I'm not too bent out of shape a bout him risking a penalty by slurping a gel on the final climb.

Life and sport are full of examples of "taking the penalty" when it suits you. Is it good sportsmanship? No. Is it good gamesmanship? Often yes.

Imagine a football game in it's final seconds. The trailing team has the ball, and the wide receiver has a step on the D-back. As the ball comes in does the D-back let the receiver grab the ball for a TD because to break the rules would be poor sportsmanship? No! He grabs the WRs jersey at the 8 yard line and takes an interference call knowing that it gives his team another shot at keeping the opponents out of the endzone for the win. Is it against the rules? Yes. Does it incur penalty. Yes. Is it sometimes better for a team or player to take the penalty anyway. Yes.

Is 20 seconds too small a penalty? Tours have been won by less. It's near or greater than the separation between the next 4 riders in the GC. 

I doubt even a full on bonk would have lost Froome his 5 minute lead 10 minutes from the finish. But I can definitely see the reasoning in his decision to take 20 seconds as a hedge against a bigger loss.

My main problem with Froome's performance this year is best discussed in the DF!


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## champamoore (Jul 30, 2012)

Well said. 

I know Sky winning a second Tour will piss off a lot of haters, but this year's race has not been in the super strict no attacks mode of the team riding for Wiggo. I'm not particularly a fan of Sky, nor Mr Froome, but it is a minor infraction, not a major one, and the precedent is with him - like it or not. 

As for TJ, if he had had a team mate to go back for food for him, he might have pulled off the victory, even after the penalty. Although he might have preferred not to risk it. Each team and rider can weigh those risk/benefit ratios, and make their own call. 

This is a far cry from *doping*, anyway. Seems like the Sky haters are grasping at straws a bit to me.


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

sir duke said:


> Ah, another doping forum wannabee savant armed with that withering expression 'fanboi' (and with the 'cool' spelling too). You're new here, aren't you? I don't doubt you've been wrong before, you're wrong here too..
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/will-wiggins-one-save-us-sky-308651.html post #18
> 
> It pays to do your homework sweetcakes...:thumbsup:


Ahhhh, yes...the old misdirection play...good call. Covering all your bases in case he/they are caught or are never caught. I should have thought of that. Not new here...and it's noob, to you (since you're into kewl spellings). Let's just say I was biking before they invented 10 speeds! ;-)


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

nOOky said:


> I think the time penalties for accepting nutrition during an unauthorized feed zone in a 3 week bike race are stupid to begin with, *so no comment.*


But....you, you, you....commented.....this does not compute!


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

r1lee said:


> it's the first.. get it right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reading comprehension 101. Please go back an re-read my orig post...I was right...the "first" time.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

RTSO2112 said:


> Ahhhh, yes...the old misdirection play...good call. Covering all your bases in case he/they are caught or are never caught. I should have thought of that. Not new here...and it's noob, to you (since you're into kewl spellings). Let's just say I was biking before they invented 10 speeds! ;-)


Biking before 10 speeds? So what have you learned? Any pro in yellow would have ldone the same in the same situation. 
Covering bases? Really? Two options at this point, I'm suspicious or I think the guy is clean as the driven snow. I'm suspicious about everyone. I tend to base decisions according to what past experince teaches me. Some people call that common sense. Do I give a fig whether or not you agree with me? Uh, no.
I can see why as a former Lance chamois sniffer you got burned, you want me burned too. Natural reaction for a fantasist.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

RTSO2112 said:


> Reading comprehension 101. Please go back an re-read my orig post...I was right...the "first" time.



Please feel free to link the first time...


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

r1lee said:


> Please feel free to link the first time...


You have a brain...you can navigate in the internets...I made a factual statement, it's in the record...go look it up....don't make me do your heavy lifting for you!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I took a coke in the "Illegal Feed Zone" at Cascade Classic today. 

RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MOTOREF. 

...nobody cared.


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> I took a coke in the "Illegal Feed Zone" at Cascade Classic today.
> 
> RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MOTOREF.
> 
> ...nobody cared.


Cheater! I hope they find coke in your system and you get a lifetime ban!


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Is it illegal to eat inside of the no feed rule or is it just illegal to take on food or drink from an outside source after that line (car, team mate, someone @ roadside)?


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Beavis and butthead back there will probably give you 4 different versions that relate absolutely nothing to the rule books.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> I took a coke in the "Illegal Feed Zone" at Cascade Classic today.
> 
> RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MOTOREF.
> 
> ...nobody cared.


Update: 20 second penalty and $50 fine


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

RTSO2112 said:


> You have a brain...you can navigate in the internets...I made a factual statement, it's in the record...go look it up....don't make me do your heavy lifting for you!


Jury President: Sky?s Ventoux feed legal; no time limit extension for the Alpe

Maybe you should be the one learning how to read....


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

deviousalex said:


> Jury President: Sky?s Ventoux feed legal; no time limit extension for the Alpe
> 
> Maybe you should be the one learning how to read....


He's been riding his bike since before 10 speeds were around, first things first...


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## RTSO2112 (Oct 18, 2012)

sir duke said:


> He's been riding his bike since before 10 speeds were around, first things first...


You guys are too easy...to your credit, it is cute.


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## champamoore (Jul 30, 2012)

At least they aren't taking food (see 5:25 in): Ciclismo Vive Le Tour de France Documental - YouTube


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## 4Crawler (Jul 13, 2011)

davidka said:


> Is it illegal to eat inside of the no feed rule or is it just illegal to take on food or drink from an outside source after that line (car, team mate, someone @ roadside)?


I think it is not allowed to take on food/drink from an outside source (team car or someone beside the road) after the announced point on the course. If you have it with you it is fine. Imagine the idea is to keep the team cars out of the way over the end of the stage. Also on a late climb it would be an advantage for a rider to start out with no water then take on water part way up if needed, compared to a rider carrying what he needed from the base, not to mention "sticky bottles"


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

nacnac3 said:


> Did you see his comments about "technically" Porte took the gel..... And about how it was ok because he couldn't get food earlier due to problems with the car? Weak sauce.
> 
> I think its BS. If he bonks he could drop minutes. That would change the race.


if he was truly bonking no gel would help that

if you wait until the bonk before trying to eat it ain't gonna help
I think he just needed one last sugar / caffeine burst to bring him home


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Skewer said:


> Stage 18, I saw what appeared Schleck grabbed a small coke can from a fan and put it in his back pocket. Would you grab food/drinks from a fan? It could be poisoned.


if it is unopened they'll take them. They'll pour water on themselves if given to them but not drink


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

r1lee said:


> Then please lay out the rules then, since you seem to understand it better then everybody else.
> 
> There are always exceptions to the rule, just like your example of speeding. Even though one is a rule of a sanctioned race, and the other one is the "law". But we'll try to keep it in persepective.
> 
> ...


Froome agreed that the rule was broken (pointed the finger at Porte) - the commissars agreed as well - fine and time loss given.
Meaningless to debate whether or not a rule was broken.
The real question is one of deterence - is the penalty a deterent or not?

I'll not be drawn in by your attempt to personalize this.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

LostViking said:


> The real question is one of deterence - is the penalty a deterent or not?


When you're 15 seconds ahead yes, when you're 5 minutes ahead no. It is like speeding tickets. If you're a millionaire a speeding ticket is nothing and it's worth your time to speed. That's why some countries make speeding tickets proportional to income.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

deviousalex said:


> When you're 15 seconds ahead yes, when you're 5 minutes ahead no. It is like speeding tickets. If you're a millionaire a speeding ticket is nothing and it's worth your time to speed. That's why some countries make speeding tickets proportional to income.


Yes, that's what I'm getting at. In a very tight race - the time penalty might be a deterent, but for someone with minutes over their nearest rival - not so much. With no fear of the time penalty - and so much to gain by avoiding a costly bonk - it just makes sense to take the fine. Cost vs Benefit is pretty clear here.

The financial penalty is laughable - and also favors big-budget teams like Sky as opposed to teams that are struggling to pay the bills.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

LostViking said:


> The financial penalty is laughable - and also favors big-budget teams like Sky as opposed to teams that are struggling to pay the bills.



That's true about any fine.


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