# Amature Doping



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/artic...-not-a-sports-issue-its-a-public-health-issue


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

There are a few doped-to-the-gills ex pros in the socal masters ranks.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Yep, been going on for a while. Amateurs have been using PED's for decades. Look at non-competitive bodybuilders, and the Olympics.

A nearly 3-year old article in the NYT. Then there is the famous _Outside_ article from 11+years ago.

Apparently there is no shortage of MD's who will rise to the call for help.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I would dearly love to see occasional testing in the masters races.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Seems like new "enemies" are being created to justify continuation of "the war on drugs". Seems the people (who don't carry much weight in American politics) are getting tired of that losing battle - and may not want to lock so many people in jail for weed, etc. 

Lately, there has been media coverage of the bath salts types of drugs as well as abuse of prescription drugs. Just seems that law enforcement is going to justify the continued huge expenditures of money to continue the war. I wish we would go in a different direction - education and trying to change someone's desire for use vs health risks.

Drugs work - some make you stronger, some change your perspective. However, they also catch up with you. 

Abolition doesn't work. Time to try a new approach.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Fireform said:


> I would dearly love to see occasional testing in the masters races.


Apparently there is occasional testing. I suspect what you and many others want is more frequent and comprehensive testing.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I've seen a handful of tests at a single event in the last 3 years out of 60 or 70 I've done in that time, and that was announced testing at a state championship. That's not deterrence.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Fireform said:


> I've seen a handful of tests at a single event in the last 3 years out of 60 or 70 I've done in that time, and that was announced testing at a state championship. That's not deterrence.


I know that USADA also does out-of-event testing for amateurs. They nailed a college kid in Houston a few years ago, showing up at his door several days after a crit, and hit him with a 2 year suspension. But the frequency of testing overall for amateur cyclists has been largely laughed at.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Never heard of a masters racer being tested ooc in FL. Although one guy had a dime dropped on him and came up positive.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Fireform said:


> Never heard of a masters racer being tested ooc in FL. Although one guy had a dime dropped on him and came up positive.


Don't know the details, but this from a 2013 WSJ article:

_
"In September [2012], Usada announced that Florida masters racer Julio Cruz, 44, had tested positive for the banned stimulant Methylhexaneamine. He received a six-month ban. Cruz couldn't be reached for comment."_​

More on testing in FL and testing in the article.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I know about that but in real life it hasn't translated into any noticeable testing. The fastest time of the entire day at the state time trial championship last weekend was turned in by a 58-year-old. I'm not saying I think he's dirty because he's been fast for a long time but it does cry out for testing. I don't know that any tests were done at that event.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Is testing generally announced? How would you know if testing was done to anyone other than yourself?

I believe part of the issue that limits testing at amateur events is who pays for it.

An interesting side, all of USADAs sanctions in cycling, pro and amateur combined, total 106 over the past 15 years.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Well people talk. And people often post their negative test results as a point of pride. I know I would in the remote chance I was ever told to pee in a cup.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Testing of amateurs remains a debated topic, as this 2012 _Outside_ article highlights. Not everyone agrees that it's worth the effort and expense. Of course the downside is, what do results mean if they are tainted by PED's?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

When a guy like Richard Meeker wins, what was it, 5 national masters championships before his first test, it's easy to get cynical.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I still haven't been tested and have been doing USAC races since 2008. 

There was a professional tri chick who got busted for testosterone in my neck of the woods, which explains her results and really deep voice.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

A whole lot of people should have dropped the dime on Meeker a long time ago. USADA should have targeted the Nationals podiums at the very least, if not the state championships of the traditional cycling (doping) hot spots. Let's be honest, it's far too easy for Southwestern Masters (for example) to get serious PEDs with a hop across the border or a trip to a "youth revitalization" clinic. The competition in these areas is intense enough that racers will go to any length to place respectably, even when talent, effort, genes, intelligence, and other factors don't warrant such a result.

Nobody wants to be a failure, and some people will do anything to avoid it. Anything.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Those anti-aging clinics seem like they'd be effective. Probably a little too expensive for the average racer.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

USA Cycling Fails to Deliver Drug Tests | NorCal Cycling News - Cycling and Racing in Northern California



> USA Cycling failed to deliver their RaceClean initiative. The NCNCA’s money was locked up in the RaceClean program for all of 2014 and no testing was administered at all, even though RaceClean was successfully implemented in other districts around the country. The NCNCA’s money has been returned for 2015.


I've been on group rides in the area where I've heard masters racers openly talk about their doping. Some of these guys everyone knows what they are up to, but nothing is done about it.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

USADA wants thousands to test a single individual. Passing this cost to racers or promoters will make our expensive sport even more expensive. That cost should not be passed on to everyone. 

I have proposed a gofundme initiative to my region so racers can donate for testing. If you think people are dirty, put your money where your mouth is. If you're spending $100-$500* every month to race bicycles but getting beat by a guy who you think is cheating, you might want to drop $100 into the testing bucket. 



*$500? Sounds outrageous. But do the math. I race 5-8 times a month, some races are as expensive as $45. I have some deals worked out with sponsors and promoters, but some racers pay full fare. Five to eight races at $45/race = $225-$360. 

Now add in gas/transportation, occasional lodging, food, tires and bike maintenance, shoes, cleats, helmets and other equipment, kits, drink mix, recovery drinks, and on and on. 

$500 might actually be on the low end for someone racing twice a weekend.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Imho, no amount of money is going to change things as they currently are structured (national and international testing agencies and organizations). And it doesn't matter if we're testing amateurs and/or professionals. They, the int'l & nat'l testing agencies, are always too late and one step behind when looking for yesterday's latest development:

A perfect example is the lame and house of cards logic that is called the UCI's Biological Passport program:


French television report shows how micro-dosing can beat UCI Biological Passport | Cyclingnews.com


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

In my area, Florida, the geriatric population is a high percent of the total population and a lot of these people are fit, active and have disposable income. The anti-aging medicine docs are realizing the fertile ground for business opportunity here. The "concierge" docs have hormone/supplement therapy so dialed in that I think they have better programs than some of the pros. This is primarily due to the fact that their treatment is "medically necessary" and they are not concerned with getting caught because they are not involved with competition, just the practice of anti - aging medicine.

I have co managed some of these patients and none of them compete, but I have to say the results are impressive. Even with minimal training these men and women are leaner, fitter and much more muscular than ever possible without the gear.

I have seen the bad responders too. Prostate and liver disease being the most common issues. The need to take chemotherapy drugs to balance estrogen levels is the next most common issue.

The reasons for going this route that I hear are: 
ability to gain muscle and lose weight
Working out and not getting sore/crippled the next day
Sports participation with energy and stamina
"Feel like I'm 20 yrs younger!"

There are probably way more people on the "gear" than most of you think.
Because of my job, I see a lot more of the negative side effects but for some those risks are worth it.
If it wasn't so expensive and the side effects so deadly I would probably be on it too!

Every time I start to think it might be worth it, to try it, a patient will come in and ask me why his anti aging doc put him on Tamoxifen. My explanation to him is enough of a deterrent to me!

The thing is due to the increase in this type of therapy, eventually they will get it dialed in so the safety goes up and costs come down. My prediction is in 10-15 years this "Anti Aging Medicine" will be more prescribed than Statin drugs and ******, which are the biggest income producers for the drug industry.

I think this is a move in the wrong direction. We are becoming a totally medicated society.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Modern American society wants a pill to do the work for them.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

BacDoc said:


> In my area, Florida, the geriatric population is a high percent of the total population and a lot of these people are fit, active and have disposable income. The anti-aging medicine docs are realizing the fertile ground for business opportunity here. The "concierge" docs have hormone/supplement therapy so dialed in that I think they have better programs than some of the pros. This is primarily due to the fact that their treatment is "medically necessary" and they are not concerned with getting caught because they are not involved with competition, just the practice of anti - aging medicine.
> 
> I have co managed some of these patients and none of them compete, but I have to say the results are impressive. Even with minimal training these men and women are leaner, fitter and much more muscular than ever possible without the gear.
> 
> ...


This is a very interesting post. I'd like to know what percentage of the guys I race against are on stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it's pretty high


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Fireform said:


> This is a very interesting post. I'd like to know what percentage of the guys I race against are on stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it's pretty high


Given how easy it is to get and the chances they will "Never" be caught ... higher than you think and higher than most are willing to admit.

I interviewed for a job at an ED clinic ... basically an anti-aging clinic for a counseling position once. The general gist was that if somebody walked in the door and could afford it (non-insurance based), they were getting a prescription and would continue to get it as long as they could pay. I really wanted the job just to see who walked through the door, could have been classic!

Basically, it's super easy to get legally and likely costs less than a new bike per year.

When I see a lot of the Masters racers racing the Masters race as a warm up, winning that or placing well ... then jumping in the CAT 1/2 race later in the day and placing top 10 on a regular basis (top 5 on many occasions) ... you just have to wonder what's going on there!


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

spade2you said:


> I still haven't been tested and have been doing USAC races since 2008.


They typically don't test regularly dropped riders.
I should know.:cryin:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Alaska Mike said:


> Modern American society wants a pill to do the work for them.


This is why I have so much bike and guitar gear.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Wookiebiker said:


> When I see a lot of the Masters racers racing the Masters race as a warm up, winning that or placing well ... then jumping in the CAT 1/2 race later in the day and placing top 10 on a regular basis (top 5 on many occasions) ... you just have to wonder what's going on there!


I did this last weekend. I didn't win anything but I finished 7th and 10th. Clean. 



Fireform said:


> I'd like to know what percentage of the guys I race against are on stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it's pretty high


I know for a fact that everyone who beats me has to be on something. 

It's the only explanation that fully protects my ego.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

BacDoc said:


> In my area, Florida, the geriatric population is a high percent of the total population and a lot of these people are fit, active and have disposable income. The anti-aging medicine docs are realizing the fertile ground for business opportunity here. The "concierge" docs have hormone/supplement therapy so dialed in that I think they have better programs than some of the pros. This is primarily due to the fact that their treatment is "medically necessary" and they are not concerned with getting caught because they are not involved with competition, just the practice of anti - aging medicine.
> 
> I have co managed some of these patients and none of them compete, but I have to say the results are impressive. Even with minimal training these men and women are leaner, fitter and much more muscular than ever possible without the gear.
> 
> ...


I read this book called "The Doper Next Door" about an amateur masters cat 4 in the SF bay area who decides to go on the juice to write this book. While the book is actually more about a midlife crisis than doping, the process he goes through to get his prescriptions for testosterone, HGH, and some other drug I don't remember is by going to these anti-aging clinics and getting on "The Wiley Protocol". This stuff sounded awful, you can't even go cold turkey if you want to get off it. You have to taper it down and go through withdrawal symptoms.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Wookiebiker said:


> When I see a lot of the Masters racers racing the Masters race as a warm up, winning that or placing well ... then jumping in the CAT 1/2 race later in the day and placing top 10 on a regular basis (top 5 on many occasions) ... you just have to wonder what's going on there!


Crit or circuit race sure. Road race...definitely fishy.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> Crit or circuit race sure. Road race...definitely fishy.


It's difficult to race road races back to back, as the start times overlap. 

eg,
p1/2 starts at 8am
35+ 1/2/3 starts at 8:10am

At least that's how it is in my region. I assume it is like that everywhere. Maybe others can weigh in if their region is different.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> It's difficult to race road races back to back, as the start times overlap.
> 
> eg,
> p1/2 starts at 8am
> ...


There are more districts with amateur dopers than just the NCNCA


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Do any districts regularly run masters road races in the morning and P1/2 road races in the afternoon?


OK, I searched several road races and found one with masters AM/p1/2 PM in socal, the state championships: scnca.com

Perhaps the state championship is the norm, perhaps not. Most others have masters 5 minutes after the P1/2. for example: http://scnca.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/TCRRFlyer.2015.V4.pdf


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Legendary local bicycle racer gets two-year suspension for banned drugs | News & Observer News & Observer



> At the Tour de Moore in 2013, LeDuc won the 27-mile race for over-60 racers in the morning, then lined up for the 55-mile race for 50-plus rider at 12:15 p.m. He won that one, too.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I stand corrected. It looks like a really fast old timer could still theoretically race the 45/55s at 8:05am and get in the P1/2s at 10:30am. 

http://www.sandhillscyclingclub.org/images/flyer_2014_2.pdf


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

deviousalex said:


> Crit or circuit race sure. Road race...definitely fishy.


Road races ... not crits!


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Fireform said:


> This is a very interesting post. I'd like to know what percentage of the guys I race against are on stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it's pretty high


I'm just guessing but my guess would be a lot more than you think. 

First of all most would not be open about this to stay under the radar. Second, there is something called "Theraputic Exemption" which is a letter of medical necessity from the treating physician. 

This TE will sometimes allow a participant to use a substance that might be banned, on the premise that use is "medical treatment" as opposed to "performance enhancing". A good example is Testosterone. If you're diagnosed as "Low T", your doc can prescribe T and in some sports the patient can have a couple hundred percent above "normal" T and still be considered "legal". The athlete can legally say he's clean.

As a side note, I see many more men than women on the gear but patient history over the years, I'm seeing more and more women on Estrogen, T and HgH. Some of those fit beautiful women mid 40's to late 50's in those spin, dance and cross fit gyms are clean but many are juiced as high as the pros. It's getting more and more prevalent especially in the higher income range.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

A TUE from USADA for testosterone is not easy to get. Since there's little chance of being detected through testing, nobody bothers, and the guys using it for performance enhancement don't want to put the spotlight on themselves.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> There are a few doped-to-the-gills ex pros in the socal masters ranks.


No wonder ... I can't reach 2/3 their pace.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

BacDoc said:


> I'm just guessing but my guess would be a lot more than you think.



Dave Stoller: "Everybody cheats, I just didn't know..."


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

BacDoc said:


> This TE will sometimes allow a participant to use a substance that might be banned, on the premise that use is "medical treatment" as opposed to "performance enhancing". A good example is Testosterone. If you're diagnosed as "Low T", your doc can prescribe T and in some sports the patient can have a couple hundred percent above "normal" T and still be considered "legal". The athlete can legally say he's clean.


A TUE for testosterone is not allowed under any circumstances.

Is it medicine or dope? A cat. 4 vs. the USADA - VeloNews.com


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## little_shoe (Apr 18, 2008)

deviousalex said:


> A TUE for testosterone is not allowed under any circumstances.
> 
> Is it medicine or dope? A cat. 4 vs. the USADA - VeloNews.com


Stuff like this makes me hate USADA.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

little_shoe said:


> Stuff like this makes me hate USADA.


Allowing TUEs for testosterone would make the system easily circumventable. Go ride a 20+ hours a week for two weeks, I'll guarantee you will show up with a low testosterone level and be able to get a prescription. A few friends of mine who ride a lot (regularly do 20+ hour weeks) went to get a physical and the doctor tried to convince them they need supplemental testosterone.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

T K said:


> They typically don't test regularly dropped riders.
> I should know.:cryin:


Kinda pointless to test a DNS. My racing has been severely compromised by my employer. :cryin:


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> I know for a fact that everyone who beats me has to be on something.
> 
> It's the only explanation that fully protects my ego.


:lol: You crack me up.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Kinda pointless to test a DNS. My racing has been severely compromised by my employer. :cryin:


I demand they test your employer!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> I demand they test your employer!


Positive for screwing me over. Oyve, I'm scrambling to find someone to cover the 1st half of a shift so I can race a TT and spend the rest of the day/weekend with trauma and transplant. FML.


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