# tubular for training



## mikey_mike (Feb 13, 2006)

I need some input from you guys for those who are using tubular tires as their training wheels I'm planning on purchasing a tubular wheelset (campy eurus). What are the pros and cons in using one? Thanks! Ride safe.


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## Guest (May 26, 2007)

I use tubs everyday. They roll very well and seem to flat less often. With the higher pressures you would think that rolling resistance would be much less than with clinchers. I believe this has been demmonstrated. The only drawback is the glueing of the tires onto the rim and fact that you have to carry rolled spares which are much larger than tubes.
You should also have a backup set of wheels ready to go if you ride tubs.

Cheers!




mikey_mike said:


> I need some input from you guys for those who are using tubular tires as their training wheels I'm planning on purchasing a tubular wheelset (campy eurus). What are the pros and cons in using one? Thanks! Ride safe.


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## mikey_mike (Feb 13, 2006)

That's my main reason why I'd like to use tubs for training, because of flats and also the time required to change a flat when using a clincher tire.


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## rdolson (Sep 2, 2003)

I also use tubs as everyday tires. I had the owner of my LBS talk me into a set of clincher rims a couple of years ago, Mavic Cosmos, I think. I had been riding tubs for 25 years or more. After I started to flat every 5 rides or so, and dealt with the fact that no matter what clincher I tried NOTHING ever came close to the ride of the most basic of tubs, when I bough my Ksyriums, it spec'd tubs. With the cost of highend clinchers running in the $60+ range, it seemed silly to not go with tubs. 

What a relief it has been this year, 800 miles fo far and not a single flat, riding on clouds again, and cornering like no tomorow. Using Vred TriComp Pros and couldn't be happier.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Yeah, about a year ago I switched over to tubulars for everything. Prior, I'd just run them on some aero race wheels. Looked at all the weights, prices of tires, etc. and decided tubulars were better, at least all the numbers were "better". Since then, I have had just one flat in over 12K riding last season. I used to flat on clinchers like weekly at least.
I use the cheap Continentals from Bike Tiires Direct, which are about 1/2 the price of good clinchers..Do they "feel better?" Dunno, maybe so. One day I will buy some of those really good expensive ones and see if I feel any difference..But at around $30 bucks each, the Conti's are a real deal... But the whole wheel with a tubular and it's rim is substantially lighter. Yes, mounting them is a bigger pain than clinchers and a spare is sort of bulky to carry everyday..I had someone make me a bag for my spare, which I velcro under my seat so it is on the bike and I don't go out without it in my jersey..
I still have some clincher rims that I ride rarely, so I ain't a snob or a purist...
Don Hanson


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Raining on the parade*



Gnarly 928 said:


> Since then, I have had just one flat in over 12K riding last season. I used to flat on clinchers like weekly at least.


This may have been your experience, but it is NOT typical nor representative. Unless you are running too small a tire or too low a pressure and getting pinch flats, there is nothing about a tubular that makes it more flat resistant than a clincher.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

*Oh Keah, whatever..*



Kerry Irons said:


> This may have been your experience, but it is NOT typical nor representative. Unless you are running too small a tire or too low a pressure and getting pinch flats, there is nothing about a tubular that makes it more flat resistant than a clincher.


 So, where do you find the data that proves fewer flats with tubulars is "NOT typical or representative"? 

Actually, I don't really care, I only care about giving the original poster the best information I can, from my own personal experience after many year of training and racing on almost every major brand of clinchers and most of the less expensive tubulars..

He asked for the pros and cons from people who train on tubulars. So far, other than Kerry, one of the "Pros" everyone who responded is fewer flats. The main "Con" is they are more tedious to mount properly...

Yeah, Kerry, I've had my share of pinch flats from trying to ride a 19c racing clinchers over crappy pavement or from running them too long (at whatever size) until they get worn thin, or from low air pressure...But that is my fault for being dumb (or lazy) about what I ride..

I'll stick by my original post, however and say tubulars have significantly fewer flats on my bikes for sure. Most of other riders I know mention the same thing about tubulars/vs/clinchers (fewer flats) on their bikes, too. But as Kerry will probably point out, there may be nothing "published" that will support the "facts" as we all seem to see them..

Here, I will say (again) : I get about ten times as many flat clinchers as I do flat tubulars.

.It takes me about half an hour to mount a tubular with glue..not counting the drying time..about the same time using Tufo tape, which lets you ride without waiting for glue.. I timed myself on this just today, after re-building a wheel (Zipp 303 rim/Nimble 28 spoke hub) It takes me about ten minutes to change a clincher using a fresh tube.

. Tire Tedium+/- =.......A hundred minutes vs. 30 minutes. (at the flat ratio I experience here in MY world)

Continental Sprinters are about $40 (bike tires direct, on the net) the Competition Vectran Contis are bout $60..Dunno what the Michelin Pro 2s are right now, because I haven't been riding them, so I don't buy em all the time any longer...Figure in tubes also when you do the math, as well as valve stem extenders for the tubulars..and Tufo tape or glue..

Hope that helps...you got about all the pros and cons..and one post calling bull..it is the Internet, remember.

ciao,
Don Hanson


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## mikey_mike (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks for the input guys, actually what I do care about is changing the tire when a flat occurs, I ride alone on weekdays at early dawn. My lbs offered me a Vittoria pitstop, he says it would get you back on the road asap without having to remove then remount the tire. Its scary to have a flat tire in the middle of the road all alone at this time of the day.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

I find it about equal in the time spent changing a flat tubular as changing a flat clincher. I carry an old but servicable tubular, like the one I removed today to re-spoke a wheel..It has glue already on it, dry of course, but still sticky enough to keep it on a rim, should I flat during a ride. You simply pry the flat one off..Making sure to NOT get your rim into the gravel or sand..and put the spare on and re-inflate...I then take care on hard corners until I can put another properly glued tire onto the rim...I have an old 'sew-up" repair kit, but I have only repaired a flat tubular in the distant past...I do bring that along (I replace the glue in the patch kit yearly) when I go out on really remote long rides alone..in case I might get two flats in one ride...not likely.. with tubulars..

The one time this winter that I DID ride my clinchers, chosen because I was going long and remote with two friends who both were on clinchers, too,....I cut the sidewall of my newish Michelin Pro on something at the top of Mt. Palomar in California..Too big to patch with my tube patches...But my Canadian buddy had a dollar bill from the Great White North, which he said was much better as a 'tire boot" than an American dollar...Folded up and inserted between a new tube and the cut tire casing, that did get me back to the truck...
You can also ride carefully on a flat tubular for quite a few miles, I am told...I did once ride about 10 miles with only about 5lbs of air in a tubular rear, after breaking my cool zoot little tiny carbon pump by stepping on it..
I have not tried that Tufo repair gunk...said to work..but I dunno..
good luck and have fun
Don Hanson


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## takmanjapan (Mar 24, 2004)

*My 2 cents worth -tape*

I use tubies on my commuter bike and race bike. I use cheaper Vittoria rally or nouvo pros as they are the same size and tread pattern as the better tires but are cheap -10-15 dollars each. For me, I get few flats and by the time the rubber is chewed up by where I ride then its not so bad to replace the tire. Changing is a pain but I went to tubular tape and it was heaven compared to glue. I carry an un-glued or un-taped spare when riding. I have had no problems limping home on it. Just need to ride easy and regular pressure should suitable hold it to the rim.

For me, I thought about going back to clinchers but cant justify the extra tire and tube costs costs and weight compared to what I am using now. 

My big complaint is the lack of light non-carbon tubular rims on the market..... 

Takmanjapan


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

changing a flat: I can change a clincher flat in 20 seconds, I don't need tools.

I glue on tubies quite well, and they usually take 5 minutes of *****ing and swearing, thumb blisters, etc. to get off. Then you have to ride home on eggshells if your glue isn't too cured. 

I race on tubulars (deep carbon and 32x box sections) and train on clinchers. I do low priority races on clinchers too as that is where my PT wheel is. I just change to 195g tires and ultralight tubes race day.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Of course, YMMV*



Gnarly 928 said:


> So, where do you find the data that proves fewer flats with tubulars is "NOT typical or representative"?


You're more than willing to quote your anecdotal experience as definitive, so I will tell you that in riding tubulars for 30 years, and clinchers for 10, my experience was no difference in flat tendency. Does my experience trump your experience? Of course not. Just don't claim that your experience is the only valid one.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

Kerry Irons said:


> You're more than willing to quote your anecdotal experience as definitive, so I will tell you that in riding tubulars for 30 years, and clinchers for 10, my experience was no difference in flat tendency. Does my experience trump your experience? Of course not. Just don't claim that your experience is the only valid one.


+1 

I have been riding tubulars since the late 70s. Switched over to clinchers about 4 years ago. I have not experienced any difference in flatting between the two.

As to pros and cons for training. I say if you can afford to run both sets (clinchers and tubulars) then stick to clinchers for training. They are generally heavier and will give you that psychological boost when racing on the lighter and usually higher end tubulars.

Most of us who have been riding for years and have put enough miles on both sets will honestly admit that clinchers are the better choice when riding alone (ie without any support). They are easier to change on the road (and yes I can change a tubular with my eyes closed in the dark in a rain storm going up hill...). They are fully good to go after flatting. carrying an extra tube is no big deal, and for those rare double flats, the park patch kit, is harder to find in your bag, then it is to patch the tube. When riding in a group, clinchers are more the norm than tubulars, so sharing is a given.

Tubulars, well the only pros (for me) over clinchers are 1) they can be ridden flat if you must, (although if you flat the front, it usually involves a front to rear, rear to front tire swap, as it is easier to ride a flat rear than a flat front.); 2) You don't have to carry irons; 3) It is a very fast to change a flat.

The tubular cons: 1) well running flat you can destroy your rim and you will destoy the tire; 2) You have to carry a spare tire. 3) After flatting, you should not push the performance thresholds or cornering abilities of your wheels, the risk of rolling the poor glue set is greatly increased.

For me, today, since bicycle riding/racing is not my main activity, clinchers are much easier, essentially set and forget. Tubulars require some thought: There is prep and aftercare. Anyone who seriously rides tubulars has more than one set of wheels (in my case more than one set for each activity.)

zac


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

Tubular for training, commuting and race. Both CX and road


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## dudigrinfeld (Aug 18, 2010)

Can't you use the bottle like liquid bottle you carry but to use one for the tube? they sell this bottle especially for that. Wouldn't a spare tube fit in there? Yes it means you carry one less bottle of liquid but not always when you go out you need two of them and always you can stop and buy a drink to fill up the empty one.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

jjspike said:


> With the higher pressures you would think that rolling resistance would be much less than with clinchers. I believe this has been demmonstrated.


Rolling resistance will decrease as tire pressure increases on very smooth surfaces like wood tracks, etc... On a real road with surface roughness there is a tire pressure at which the rolling resistance actually begins to increase as pressure increases. For a rider & bike load of ~ 200 lbs on a very good asphalt surface that pressure is ~ 120 psig. The rolling resistance increases much more rapidly with pressure above the break point so it's much better to be slightly under inflated than over inflated.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

im about to make the jump over to tubular, excited and nervous all at once since it's something that i've never done...but change is good and being out of your comfort zone lets you grow.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

mikey_mike said:


> That's my main reason why I'd like to use tubs for training, because of flats and also the time required to change a flat when using a clincher tire.


Even if you're slow, that's about a 5 minute job.

Occasionally one of my riding partners will be on tubulars for that day, and I have not observed any significant difference between clincher vs tubie flatting on training rides.

I ride alloy clinchers for everyday use, and the tubular/carbon wheelset is 90% for races. I have a _perception_ that tubies are somewhat safer in a mass start race, the tubular/carbon wheelset is slightly lighter than clincher, and I can limp to the finish line on a flat tubie (don't want to carry spares & patching paraphernalia on a race).

Nowadays, a _good_ quality clincher & tube rolls and handles just as well as a good quality tubular, so personally I don't understand the appeal of a tubular for everyday use.


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## dudigrinfeld (Aug 18, 2010)

Anyone has an idea what the best way to clean the carbon rim surface espacially on the brake surface where some of the glue can spread there. I know there are few materials but I also assume they are not good for the trye (rubber) as if its touch it.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

AM999 said:


> Rolling resistance will decrease as tire pressure increases on very smooth surfaces like wood tracks, etc... On a real road with surface roughness there is a tire pressure at which the rolling resistance actually begins to increase as pressure increases. For a rider & bike load of ~ 200 lbs on a very good asphalt surface that pressure is ~ 120 psig. The rolling resistance increases much more rapidly with pressure above the break point so it's much better to be slightly under inflated than over inflated.


So they say, and it seems plausible to me, but I haven't seen any data. Can you point to any studies or data that demonstrate this?


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

looigi said:


> So they say, and it seems plausible to me, but I haven't seen any data. Can you point to any studies or data that demonstrate this?


http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/What_s_in_a_tube__1034.html


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

dudigrinfeld said:


> Anyone has an idea what the best way to clean the carbon rim surface espacially on the brake surface where some of the glue can spread there. I know there are few materials but I also assume they are not good for the trye (rubber) as if its touch it.


I've used mineral spirits on a rag plus elbow grease. If the glue isn't too thick or uneven it wears off the brake surfaces fairly quickly.


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## Bridgestone (Sep 6, 2007)

Kerry Irons said:


> You're more than willing to quote your anecdotal experience as definitive, so I will tell you that in riding tubulars for 30 years, and clinchers for 10, my experience was no difference in flat tendency. Does my experience trump your experience? Of course not. Just don't claim that your experience is the only valid one.


That's not what I got from reading his post at all. He said "on his bike" that was his experience, I did not see him discrediting other opinions. Please show me where as my eyeballs might be stuck.


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