# Let's talk about nipple washers.



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

This recent  post & thread  on rim spoke hole cracking issues prompted me to start this post. On my most recent set of personal wheels I decided to use nipple washers, and for three reasons -


They provide a known smooth surface for nipple seating and turning. The proliferation of non-ferrule rims seem to offer a mixed bag of spoke hole qualities.
They remove nipple shoulder pressure from the edge of the nipple hole.
They provide a bigger surface area for the given nipple pressure thus reducing psi at this vulnerable location.

Those were my reasons anyway. Maybe there are other good reasons that I'm not aware of. I couldn't think of one reason not to use them.

My washers, the same variety as BHS.com sells (the round Polyax ones 7mm diameter) weighed a total of 9 grams (4f, 5r for 24/28 drilling) were 0.7mm thick which would add a total of 1.4mm to the ERD. To be on the safe side I added them to my measuring spokes when I was measuring my own ERD (pic below).

I can only imagine (and hope) that these washers cut down or even eliminate spoke hole cracking. Since I started thinking about nipple washers (a few months ago) I have found two other sets of wheels that had them installed so maybe they are more common than we think. After all, you really have to go looking for them to find them on a set of wheels. I'd owned a set for two years (not built by me) before I noticed their nipple washers.

Let's discuss them. Who has used them, who uses them exclusively for all their wheels and who has any negative stories about them?


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

I've been using the nipple washers in some wheels for the last two years. Like you said they provide greater surface area to spread out the load of the nipple and they are smoother than the holes drilled into some rims. 

I primarily use them for very light alloy rims. For instance the Stan's Race gold 29er wheelset. I've seen many of those with cracks at the spoke holes after a year or less of good use, but once Stan's started using nipple washers I have not seen a single crack at the spoke holes. I don't consider this anecdotal evidence because I have seen many, many used Gold wheels...more than 100. Also I've seen a pull through test which compares the tension required to pull a nipple through a spoke hole with or without a nipple washer. I don't recall the exact number but it was around 20% greater force necessary to pull through the particular rim sample with the washer vs. without. This is in line with the amount of surface area gained with the washer. The nipple washer seem to be a better choice than eyelets since they go behind the spoke holes, whereas to use eyelets the spoke holes must be made larger.

The washers are also useful if your spokes are close to bottoming out in the nipple (the spokes are a tad long). The extra 0.7mm will take up the distance and allow plenty of room for truing. The nipples weigh about 5.5 grams per 32.

Any negatives to using these are minor. 
-One is that it takes a little longer to build a wheel with these. 
-It's also possible that the inside of some rims are two narrow to fit the washers although I have not run into this. 
-Another thing I've noticed, but I can't say for certain is that the washers seem to allow more water inside the rim during wet rides or a bike wash than using nipples alone. It's possible that there is a greater gap when using these stainless steel nipples especially if the rim is center drilled. Water getting in the rims has always existed and some manufacturers use to, or still do, drill drain holes in the sidewall. I did the same on a couple of my personal wheel that I use for cross that I noticed excessive water inside.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

What do you guys think about only using washers on the drive side?. It seems that is where I see most of the cracks forming?


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

I see no problem with using washers on the drive side only.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Is that a wheel building component or a career opportunity?


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I've used washers on the DS on my Kinlinxr270 training wheels. I run the tension up to 125kgf and I have had some of the rims crack at the spoke holes. It hasn't eliminated cracking but possibly reduced it. It'll be another year or two before I am sure.

I sectioned an old rim at a spoke hole and the Sapim Polyax washers appear to fit the rim countour well.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

looigi said:


> Is that a wheel building component or a career opportunity?


Good point!


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## RedViola (Aug 15, 2012)

That's quite a coincidence; John Neugent wrote a little Neuvation newsletter post either Friday or today about this very thing coming to him in his sleep or something, so as a result all of his wheels will now come with washers installed standard.

It makes technical sense. Go for it.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

RedViola said:


> John Neugent wrote a little Neuvation newsletter post.


Do you have a link for that as I don't see it on his site?


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

Oh, this is about wheels!!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

skinewmexico said:


> Oh, this is about wheels!!


Trust *somebody!* :blush2:


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## RedViola (Aug 15, 2012)

Mike T. said:


> Do you have a link for that as I don't see it on his site?


Yeah, as of today, his newsletter archives are only current to October, but here is the text:



John Neugent said:


> _Neuvation Newsletter Friday December 6 th._
> 
> *Washers*.
> 
> ...


EDIT: I shouldn't have said "all" of his wheels will have nipple washers, as I did in my post upthread; rather, only his alloy builds and only the rears, for the reasons above.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

RedViola said:


> Yeah, as of today, his newsletter archives are only current to October, but here is the text:
> EDIT: I shouldn't have said "all" of his wheels will have nipple washers, as I did in my post upthread; rather, only his alloy builds and only the rears, for the reasons above.


Thanks for that Red. And John shouldn't have said _"No one else that I am aware of uses washers in their wheel systems. This is not rocket science but it is somewhat of a first"_ either as I have three wheelsets here from BWW that have them! And they're 4, 3 and 2 years old too. Maybe they dreamed of nipple washers before John did


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> Thanks for that Red. And John shouldn't have said _"No one else that I am aware of uses washers in their wheel systems. This is not rocket science but it is somewhat of a first"_ either as I have three wheelsets here from BWW that have them! And they're 4, 3 and 2 years old too. Maybe they dreamed of nipple washers before John did


If it helps we used to use them all the time back in the late '70s/early '80s with some of those too-light hard anodized rims.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> If it helps we used to use them all the time back in the late '70s/early '80s with some of those too-light hard anodized rims.


Didn't they all come with ferrule/eyelets back then? I don't remember having non-eyelet rims.


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## zigmeister (Jan 26, 2012)

Interesting that Zipp has been using washers for a long time, and many believed that was some kind of flaw with their carbon wheel/structure/materials.

Or maybe they were actually on to something for a change, unlike their quest and 9 tries to get the rear hub done correctly.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

On a slightly related note, I emailed HED asking which washers were compatible with their Belgium C2 rims. This was their reply:



> I don't know, we don't use washers. Since that is the case, your guess is as good as mine.


Great customer service! You'd think even if they don't use them in their builds they would know which ones are compatible seeing how they do sell rims by themselves.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

looigi said:


> Is that a wheel building component or a career opportunity?


Lost it..

I rarely find myself using nipple washers though. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea on an uber light alloy rim but overall I don't really find them to be necessary.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> Didn't they all come with ferrule/eyelets back then? I don't remember having non-eyelet rims.


Nope. Nisi is one brand I remember that pretty much required the use of washers - very thin spoke bed. Fiamme and SuperChampion (ne Wolber ne MAVIC) used ferrules but not every brand.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm disappointed someone did not take this into the gutter and post a perverted pic about this. Someone owes me 30 seconds back.

:mad5: You guys are such, such, such............cyclists.......


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ziscwg said:


> I'm disappointed someone did not take this into the gutter and post a perverted pic about this. Someone owes me 30 seconds back.
> :mad5: You guys are such, such, such............cyclists.......


Maybe Park Tools will invent a tool for that process. They usually do.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> I'm disappointed someone did not take this into the gutter and post a perverted pic about this. Someone owes me 30 seconds back.
> 
> :mad5: You guys are such, such, such............cyclists.......


Is that all you need? 

Here, dont be dissapointed.........we aim to please....this is the upgraded delux model


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

dcgriz said:


> Is that all you need?
> 
> Here, dont be dissapointed.........we aim to please....this is the upgraded delux model


Thanks, I feel my time has not been wasted now.........................


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

looigi said:


> Is that a wheel building component or a career opportunity?


I expect if you googled the topic 90% of the hits would be NSFW.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> Let's talk about nipple washers


Realistically, I'd think ppl'd only talk about those who _don't_ wash their nipples.

Stanky, after awhile.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Also,*

Rings of gold | Who's at the Wheel?*


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

The only time I've used washers was on an original alpha 340 rear rim because, duh. It cracked anyway and a separate alpha cracked in about the same time without washers. 

The washers did make the high tension spokes easier to turn and true.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

mtbpete said:


> -Another thing I've noticed, but I can't say for certain is that the washers seem to allow more water inside the rim during wet rides or a bike wash than using nipples alone. It's possible that there is a greater gap when using these stainless steel nipples especially if the rim is center drilled. Water getting in the rims has always existed and some manufacturers use to, or still do, drill drain holes in the sidewall. I did the same on a couple of my personal wheel that I use for cross that I noticed excessive water inside.


That's a very good point and the opposite effect of not letting the nipple head dig into the aluminum of the rim. 
Personally, I have not tried them 'cause I don't typically use rims that would need washers in the first place (re: extra light rims or box section rims). If I was to build a set of flat tops I would look for ones with eyelets first.
One thing I am wondering though is if use of washers allows better nipple-to-hub alignment for rims with center drillings.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

Impossible for me to resist the title of this thread.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

SpeedNeeder said:


> Impossible for me to resist the title of this thread.


Did you submit a resume?


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

No, where do I submit???


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Washers Not recommended on Kinlin 300 rims. THey make a decent little bulge in the rim.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Enoch562 said:


> Washers Not recommended on Kinlin 300 rims. THey make a decent little bulge in the rim.


Do you know of a reason why that would be, seeing as the washers have a bigger surface area than the nipple?


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Do you know of a reason why that would be, seeing as the washers have a bigger surface area than the nipple?


THe larger surface is just a tiny bit TOO large. It pooched on both sides of the rim. Seat area was fine. THere is just not enough room on the sides for the washer.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Enoch562 said:


> THe larger surface is just a tiny bit TOO large. It pooched on both sides of the rim. Seat area was fine. THere is just not enough room on the sides for the washer.


Ok, I'm with ya. The 300 rim is narrow in the spoke bed area. It would be nice to see a hacksawed cross-section.


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## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

Mike T. said:


> Ok, I'm with ya. The 300 rim is narrow in the spoke bed area. It would be nice to see a hacksawed cross-section.


I found this drawing. I know you're not supposed to scale a drawing, but I think you'd be accurate to about 1mm, or even 0.5mm, and my estimate was 3.5mm or 4mm (unless either my eyes are wrong or my ruler is wrong). It looks that the bearing surface inside the rim is the same for both the XR300 and XR270.















It also looks that this distance isn't a directly controlled or even a measured dimension. That's a surprise to me; I thought it would be a necessary minimum distance (reference only) for final assembly, though it'd be hard to control outside of the extrusion's material thickness and exterior dimension. 
On second thought, I guess it is what you design for, but there's just no way to measure it, is there?

While finding those sections I also found this thread, someone finds out they can't use nipple washers in their XR-270 or XR-300 wheels (just as you did). Rim choice for PT wheel [Archive] - Bike Forums


> Wheelbuilder.com is telling me that nipple washers won't fit in XR270s rim holes
> 
> I couldn't use the nipple washers that I bought for my wheel build on a XR300 rim. Maybe there are more than one kind. I bought Sapim's.


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## cfoster (Dec 20, 2007)

Mike T. said:


> Thanks for that Red. And John shouldn't have said _"No one else that I am aware of uses washers in their wheel systems. This is not rocket science but it is somewhat of a first"_ either as I have three wheelsets here from BWW that have them! And they're 4, 3 and 2 years old too. Maybe they dreamed of nipple washers before John did


Yup! We've been using them almost since circa '09, maybe a little before. We use them with select rims, in both Road and MTB. Your initial post highlighted all the Pro's.

Cons?:
Hardly none, extra weight maybe? You have to make sure they're seated well, but no big deal.

We haven't really talked about them much, or at all. Like everything else in our little microcosm, not all nipple washers are created equal, (poor quality, poor 3D shapes that don't mate well with rims, etc.). Some are good, some aren't. Ours are good. For fear of our being grouped in with the bad, I guess we felt it was safer to not really talk about them.


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## cfoster (Dec 20, 2007)

Enoch562 said:


> THe larger surface is just a tiny bit TOO large. It pooched on both sides of the rim. Seat area was fine. THere is just not enough room on the sides for the washer.


Exhibit A - to my point of not all washers being equal.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

.je said:


> I found this drawing. I know you're not supposed to scale a drawing, but I think you'd be accurate to about 1mm, or even 0.5mm, and my estimate was 3.5mm or 4mm (unless either my eyes are wrong or my ruler is wrong). It looks that the bearing surface inside the rim is the same for both the XR300 and XR270.




I found the Washer seem to fit fine with the 270 rim, IT has a wider/ rounder top. The 300 is pretty narrow at the top.


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## rocky_mtn_rider (Jan 27, 2014)

To site Admin-Moderator: I cannot delete or at least get rid of one of these images in editing mode ... Nor can I delete the entire post - in the event I might want to re-post it... ?

ANYWAY...

Has anyone used - or know of someone who has used - oval nipple washers on deep carbon rims ? Interestingly, the Sapim site shows 4 different kinds of washers used in wheelbuilding [Washers | Sapim]


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I want to update my nipple washer post (minds out of the gutter you maroons!  ) with some data on my washers due to an e-mail question yesterday.

The washers I used are the round ones, the same type that BHS.com sells. 

They are 0.7mm thick and 7.2mm in diameter. The extra thickness then adds 1.4mm to the ERD of the rim (2 washers - one on each side). As per my earlier pic I added the washers to my dummy ERD measuring spokes. That's the ideal way to do it IMO - rather than forgetting to add the 1.4mm later.

My nipples measure 6.0mm OD (  ) So the washers, at 7.2mm OD, stick out 0.6mm past the nipple all around. Whether that makes a difference inside *your* rim is debatable. I'll add this though - I have a set of 50mm deep Gigantex carbon rims with these washers and looking down through the nipple hole, they seem to fit fine. This may or may not be the case with your rims though.

The question I got was along the lines of "Can I add these washers to a set of wheels that are already built?" The answer is - It depends on whether the length of the spokes will accept the extra thickness that the washers add to the rim's ERD. The ideal place for a spoke to end is between the top of the nipple and the bottom of its slot. If the extra thickness of the washer cause the end of the spoke to drop below the head of the spoke, thus causing all the strain to be taken by the neck of the nipple, then the chance of nipple heads snapping off is great.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I cut apart a broken XR-270 at the spoke hole so I could see how the nipple washers fit. The Sapim poly-axe ones Mike shows above fit very well. Their curvature matches the rim and there's enough room for the spokes to exit the rim at a slight angle.


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## aa.mclaren (Jun 25, 2008)

Nipple washers were standard with some of the early aero rims especially those with concealed nipples. Assos aero rims definitely shipped with. Roval wheels (the original 1980s 90s design) had polyurethane washers as well. Very advanced wheel design for their time.


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## akamp (Jan 14, 2009)

I quickly destroyed a set of crests on my mountain bike. They were very difficult to keep tensioned and overall I was very disappointed in the rims. I went to build up another set of wheels when a friend of mine gave me a set of crests. I said "what the heck, they're free" so I just rebuilt my existing wheels but this time used some washers. This set has held up remarkably better. Haven't touched them since I built them 6 months ago, although I probably should.


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## Orfitinho (Oct 20, 2012)

Mike T. said:


> The washers I used are the round ones, the same type that BHS.com sells.


What about the length of the nipples? Needs to be adapted too?


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Orfitinho said:


> What about the length of the nipples? Needs to be adapted too?


I suggest a little longer nipple if your rim has a thick spoke bed. It pulled the flats even with the top of my rim on some builds.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

I do enjoy the occasional 'nipple washer' email I get due to this thread.


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## cmh (Oct 5, 2002)

*XR300 vs XR270 cross sections.*

In case you wanted to see an actual cross section of the XR-270, the XR-300, and just for S&Gs, a Mavic OpenPro, here's one I took quite a while ago.

Doesn't look like the XR300 is any narrower than the XR-270. Don't have any washers with which to check, though.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cmh said:


> Doesn't look like the XR300 is any narrower than the XR-270. Don't have any washers with which to check, though.


From my post above - the washers I used were 7.2mm OD.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

A bit of a thread dredge, so my apologies. I have an assembly question for those using washers. Do you lube them? I believe Roger Musson recommends lubing the nipple bed of the rim. Since the washer is now the surface the nipple turns against, should I lube it?


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

krisdrum said:


> A bit of a thread dredge, so my apologies. I have an assembly question for those using washers. Do you lube them? I believe Roger Musson recommends lubing the nipple bed of the rim. Since the washer is now the surface the nipple turns against, should I lube it?


Did u just ask if you should lube nipple washers?


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

SpeedNeeder said:


> Did u just ask if you should lube nipple washers?


Yes. Was that unclear from my post?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

krisdrum said:


> A bit of a thread dredge, so my apologies. I have an assembly question for those using washers. Do you lube them? I believe Roger Musson recommends lubing the nipple bed of the rim. Since the washer is now the surface the nipple turns against, should I lube it?


I thought I had mentioned this in one of my posts but I couldn't find it. It was on my site under the "nipple washers" section. I wrote _"For nipple seat lube, where I normally use grease for ferrule seats or non-ferrule seats, I installed the nipples and washers and then applied one drop of oil per nipple-to-washer interface, before tensioning."_

I did this with the needle oiler that I have and did it while the nipples were still loose (and the oil could get between the nipple and washer) and did it from the tire side of the rim.


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

Last year building up a set of cross wheels was the first time I used nipple washers. 

I greased the mating surface of each washer before assembly. Made truing very easy and helped the washer stick to the nipple when inserting it into the rim.

Raced and trained the whole season on those wheels with out issues.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks gents. I thought so, but always good to confirm. Now I have 2 possible techniques to use. Let the assembly begin.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

krisdrum said:


> Thanks gents. I thought so, but always good to confirm. Now I have 2 possible techniques to use. Let the assembly begin.


I think when I do it again I'll try Quattro's method. I'll place the washer on the nipple and feed the nipple *up* through the rim hole on a sharpened Q-tip (on my site). When I did my set I pushed a spoke up as high as it would go and dropped the washer onto it using tweezers. It was ok but I lost two in the rim and had to shake 'em out later.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Wow, hot topic.

I run a bead of grease on the shoulder of the nipple with a needle tipped grease gun. Then I put the washer on the nipple and insert into the rim as usual. The grease holds the washer in place very well.

On vacation so I can't take a pic of the setup right now.


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## DHerz (Apr 27, 2014)

Nipple lube is highly recommended for the nipple washer to properly do its job. :thumbsup:

Sorry to to rehash an old joke. #groan


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