# Inability to get hr up



## luwabra (Jun 6, 2012)

Ive searched but if anyone has a link I'd appreciate it. 

I started training with power in November 2014 and just completed my 2nd FTP test yesterday. My first 20 min test yielded an avg power of 312 watts with an avg hr of 189 bpm and a max of 200 bpm in the final push. 

Yesterday I completed my 2nd FTP test as my training is progressing from base to build. My avg 20 min power was 309 my hr was 179 and my max hr was 185. I was flat out had nothing left to give in the end.

I have very diligent in my training over the past 3 months following my program almost perfectly. I could not get my hr up yesterday and my power suffered from this. 

I'd be interested to get some opinions on my fitness if anyone could weigh in with some experience. 

Thanks


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Based on the info.
309 vs 312 - they are equal
Lower heart rate for doing the same effort, you have improved
Not being able to go harder, might just have been an issue for the day (under the weather, not fueled)
Looks as if you are improving to me.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

mikerp said:


> 309 vs 312 - they are equal
> Lower heart rate for doing the same effort, you have improved


I have similar thoughts with a slightly less optimistic view: fitness was the same on both days and the slight change in hr doesn't indicate much. This is assuming both tests were done at a similar effort level with similar conditions.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Everyone has a physiologically limited max HR. That's all you got and it only goes down as you age. No amount of exercise or training will increase you max HR. What it can do is increase the avg HR you can maintain over a given period of time. One positive result of training is to be able to produce the same avg power at a lower avg hr.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

looigi said:


> Everyone has a physiologically limited max HR. That's all you got and it only goes down as you age. No amount of exercise or training will increase you max HR. What it can do is increase the avg HR you can maintain over a given period of time. One positive result of training is to be able to produce the same avg power at a lower avg hr.


True. An alternative view is with training you can develop more power for a given heart rate. The age-related decrease in HRmax can be minimized by continuing physical activity of the right intensity as we age.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Did you do all Zone 2 and 3 riding for your base or did you throw in some intervals / hard efforts too? I've never had my HR or Power raise from lower intensity work during the Winter. It's only gone up with a mix of Zone 2 and 3 with high intensity work.


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## luwabra (Jun 6, 2012)

thanks guys for input.. ive done a ton of z2 z3 work with some z4 efforts. alot of low cadence muscle tension stuff. my next phase is incorporating a lot more anaerobic work. z4-z5 so we'll see where its at after a few weeks. Ive never not been able to get my hr up in the 190's for a full gas effort is why i was questioning if I had been able to my power could have held higher? IDK? Its good at least to know that i haven't lost anything over the past 3 months (on the bright side


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Not being able to get HR up as high can be an indication of being a bit tired.


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## t-wood (Feb 28, 2005)

Both tests seem fairly close and without seeing your training plan and ride files nobody on this forum can tell you why your heart rate is lower (some experienced coaches and riders can probably give some good reason why your HR was lower but you're the only one who knows how you felt that day or how worn out or fresh you were).

I am curious to know for the two tests how you paced yourself. What I mean is how does the first 10 minutes and the second 10 minutes compare for each test?...watts and HR..

How is your training plan setup? Do you do 4 week blocks or do you keep training until you see a decline or feel fatigued and then take a recovery week? How many hours a week do you train? What does a recovery week look like or does it even last a week? Did you buy a training plan or make up your own using a book or advice from here?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

312 and 309 is within margin of error of most powermeters, so those two numbers they're pretty much the same. Depending on how well trained you already were, you're not going to see an improvement in FTP in 3 months so easily.

As for heartrate, don't worry about it. Heartrate is not important as cardiac output (heartrate x stroke volume). A higher stroke volume will more than compensate for a lower heartrate. When your stroke volume increases, your heartrate tend to drop a bit. While training cannot increase your heartrate, training CAN increase your stroke volume, and thereby decease your heartrate, which IS desireable.

So, for pretty much the same power output, you have decrease your heartrate by 10. This is an improvement in aerobic fitness IMO.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

Did you perform the tests in a similar manner/terrain? I ask because being February it would seem like there would be a good chance you did the recent test on a trainer vs outdoor in November. You would expect different results in both cases since overheating on a trainer is a known issue. I have to use 2 box fans for sustained efforts if training inside.


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## luwabra (Jun 6, 2012)

good point... both tests were done on the trainer in exactly the same manner.. same cassette, same crank etc. open windows and 2 fans. fatigue may have been a factor for sure, i had been hitting it pretty hard. Test again after build 1 phase and see where im at. Thanks for all who have opinions and input this is great. different perspectives.


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## ESTrainSmartBlog (Feb 25, 2013)

luwabra said:


> Ive searched but if anyone has a link I'd appreciate it.
> 
> I started training with power in November 2014 and just completed my 2nd FTP test yesterday. My first 20 min test yielded an avg power of 312 watts with an avg hr of 189 bpm and a max of 200 bpm in the final push.
> 
> ...


It always blows my mind how people are willing to disregard heart rate information even when it's responding abnormally...

Changes to bike fit, training on the wrong crank length, lactic tolerance and motor control can affect your heart rate greatly.

Based on the numbers you're showing, it looks like your performance is being limited by localized muscle fatigue. With the perfect bike fit, the muscles of the hips and legs will rarely limit your performance (unless you've completely depleted your glycogen or ATP-PC stores)- heart rate should always be the limiter to your performance. A long crank will make your quads fatigue quickly, and as you become stronger, you'll reach localized muscle fatigue sooner. In terms of power, you'll see an improved power output early on, then a drastic drop in power as the test progresses. The drop in power will be more significant as you get stronger.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

In my experience, a consistently (more than a couple of days in a row) nonresponsive hr generally equals fatigue. 

I'd take a few days off/very easy.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

For what it's worth, I have roughly 10 years using power and HR combined and 25 years using HR. 

Every year I experience a similar progression in my training after coming back to the bike near the end of the skiing season. Early on, I can run a high threshold HR but relatively poor power. As training progresses, my power rises but I have trouble duplicating the early season HR. After about 4 months of training, my threshold HR slowly rises again to the level it was at the first of the season and my power increases also.

This has been going on for years and I've worried about it. I now believe that perceived effort controls threshold power and HR more than we think. I suspect that intense training over time numbs our senses to pain as the season progresses. Admittedly, there is more to it because the mid season progression in HR is non linear while power improvement is less so.


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## JimmyD (Aug 5, 2010)

I definitely notice this phenomena when I've built up enough fatigue over a few weeks of hard training. for me thus is just fatigue. Have a proper rest recovery week before your next test and youll see a different result.
I also agree with what others have said in that you averaged the same wattage in the second test while holding 10bpm lower. 
I bet you were more fatigued than you realised and I bet if you had been fresh you may have seen a significant increase in average power. 
Good luck on the next test!


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